ICE-tracking app developers aren’t giving up(wired.com)
wired.com
ICE-tracking app developers aren’t giving up
https://www.wired.com/story/apple-took-down-ice-tracking-apps-their-developers-arent-giving-up/
31 comments
Tim Cook has lost all credibility after his kowtowing to the trump administration. Apple needs a new leader, and not the guy who sheepishly launched the $999 monitor stand.
It's hard to escape using Apple devices, but the company's actions under trump have made me into a consumer open to other options.
If the Apple phone and the Chinese-brand are both going to bow to their respective authoritarian government, it makes the cheaper, better spec'd non-Apple options much more appealing.
It's hard to escape using Apple devices, but the company's actions under trump have made me into a consumer open to other options.
If the Apple phone and the Chinese-brand are both going to bow to their respective authoritarian government, it makes the cheaper, better spec'd non-Apple options much more appealing.
I don't know where people got the impression that Apple seriously resisted government coercion. Their company is right there in the PRISM leaks, and Senator Wyden called them out (alongside Google) on backdooring Push Notifications years ago.
Didn't people want Apple's thoughtful, executive curation? If you're still not switching phones, what gives? Apple won this fight years ago, I'm shocked that we only now see people lift pitchforks and complain. You fought for your ability to resist sideloading and this is your just deserts. It's the phone you wanted.
Didn't people want Apple's thoughtful, executive curation? If you're still not switching phones, what gives? Apple won this fight years ago, I'm shocked that we only now see people lift pitchforks and complain. You fought for your ability to resist sideloading and this is your just deserts. It's the phone you wanted.
> I don't know where people got the impression that Apple seriously resisted government coercion
I think it was either the way they added the two-button passcode lock that can be done without pulling the phone out of your pocket, the San Bernardino Shooter's iPhone (2016), Apple's resistance to the UK's backdoor requirement in ADP, or maybe when they wouldn't unlock the Pensacola Shooter's iPhone (2019), Apple's methods to resisting China's demand for iCloud Master Key multiple times, or the constant updates like disabling biometric unlock after being disconnected from cell networks for a certain number of hours.
> Senator Wyden called them out (alongside Google) on backdooring Push Notifications years ago.
Apple's notification framework is wildly different than Google's Android method. Apple's notifications can be anonymous (hence the article we're commending on!) but Google's cannot.
> Didn't people want Apple's thoughtful, executive curation?
The app store doesn't promise curation in the sense of a museum store... it's more running the apps through a pre-check before offering to customers. It's safety, not sales appeal, at least mostly.
> If you're still not switching phones, what gives?
The alternatives are many times worse. Have you ever actually looked at what iOS collects vs Android?!
> I'm shocked that we only now see people lift pitchforks and complain.
We're upset about ICE apps being removed and Apple giving gold chunks to wannabe dictators. That didn't happen until recently.
> You fought for your ability to resist sideloading and this is your just deserts.
Google is also fighting sideloading. What phone maker are you imagining exists today and makes phones that don't have this issue?
I think it was either the way they added the two-button passcode lock that can be done without pulling the phone out of your pocket, the San Bernardino Shooter's iPhone (2016), Apple's resistance to the UK's backdoor requirement in ADP, or maybe when they wouldn't unlock the Pensacola Shooter's iPhone (2019), Apple's methods to resisting China's demand for iCloud Master Key multiple times, or the constant updates like disabling biometric unlock after being disconnected from cell networks for a certain number of hours.
> Senator Wyden called them out (alongside Google) on backdooring Push Notifications years ago.
Apple's notification framework is wildly different than Google's Android method. Apple's notifications can be anonymous (hence the article we're commending on!) but Google's cannot.
> Didn't people want Apple's thoughtful, executive curation?
The app store doesn't promise curation in the sense of a museum store... it's more running the apps through a pre-check before offering to customers. It's safety, not sales appeal, at least mostly.
> If you're still not switching phones, what gives?
The alternatives are many times worse. Have you ever actually looked at what iOS collects vs Android?!
> I'm shocked that we only now see people lift pitchforks and complain.
We're upset about ICE apps being removed and Apple giving gold chunks to wannabe dictators. That didn't happen until recently.
> You fought for your ability to resist sideloading and this is your just deserts.
Google is also fighting sideloading. What phone maker are you imagining exists today and makes phones that don't have this issue?
You're conflating public vs private. PRISM is private data collection and probably unconstitutional/illegal owing to the 4th amendment. So any information provided by PRISM is not directly used. Instead there is parallel construction [1] - the NSA (or whatever other agency they provide intel to) creates a pretext for how they obtained the information/evidence that sidesteps the real source. For instance if they pick up information on a car carrying drugs, that car might be pulled over for 'driving recklessly' and it's then searched because of 'suspicious behavior.' The real source of the reason makes no appearance in court.
The reason for this charade is because everytime somebody tries to sue the NSA over illegal data collection, the case gets tossed for lack of standing. You need to prove both that you were illegally spied on and negatively affected by such. If you can't prove that, then you have no standing to sue. And anytime people try to gather evidence of said collection in e.g. discovery, the government simply claims national security - and the case ends up tossed.
The public cases are efforts to try to streamline the process where the government could legally directly utilize such things. So you have this sort of charade where Apple is giving the government everything it wants in private, but then genuinely fighting them publicly. Both sides get more or less what they want out of the deal. Apple gets to pretend to be a protector of privacy, and the government gets unfettered access to whatever they want.
The Intercept has run a bunch of articles on this topic, alongside direct evidence of such. Here's one. [2]
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction
[2] - https://theintercept.com/2017/11/30/nsa-surveillance-fisa-se...
The reason for this charade is because everytime somebody tries to sue the NSA over illegal data collection, the case gets tossed for lack of standing. You need to prove both that you were illegally spied on and negatively affected by such. If you can't prove that, then you have no standing to sue. And anytime people try to gather evidence of said collection in e.g. discovery, the government simply claims national security - and the case ends up tossed.
The public cases are efforts to try to streamline the process where the government could legally directly utilize such things. So you have this sort of charade where Apple is giving the government everything it wants in private, but then genuinely fighting them publicly. Both sides get more or less what they want out of the deal. Apple gets to pretend to be a protector of privacy, and the government gets unfettered access to whatever they want.
The Intercept has run a bunch of articles on this topic, alongside direct evidence of such. Here's one. [2]
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction
[2] - https://theintercept.com/2017/11/30/nsa-surveillance-fisa-se...
There is no evidence of Parallel construction in iOS. NSA/other baddies wants to surveil, Apple is fighting this more than any other large company I know of.
Today's announcement from Apple further flies in the face of your arguments: https://security.apple.com/blog/apple-security-bounty-evolve...
Today's announcement from Apple further flies in the face of your arguments: https://security.apple.com/blog/apple-security-bounty-evolve...
> There is no evidence of Parallel construction in iOS.
Parallel construction isn't a technical "feature" on any phone. It is a way the NSA can use their de-facto coercion powers, ones that Apple has already admitted to fielding. If Apple is fighting this "more than any other large company" you know of, you better trust them a whole lot more than any of us do. There is no evidence that Cook has resisted this admin, at the going rate it seems like a Tweet is all it takes for him to redesign the ecosystem.
> Today's announcement from Apple further flies in the face of your arguments
Apple has always had a pitiful security bounty. It's why NSO Group burns their zero-days instead of disclosing them responsibly. Nobody cares what Apple will pay you if the exploit is worth more.
Mind you, Apple tried to sue NSO Group but then dropped the case after their federal handlers warned them of fighting with Israeli intel: https://www.securityweek.com/apple-suddenly-drops-nso-group-...
Parallel construction isn't a technical "feature" on any phone. It is a way the NSA can use their de-facto coercion powers, ones that Apple has already admitted to fielding. If Apple is fighting this "more than any other large company" you know of, you better trust them a whole lot more than any of us do. There is no evidence that Cook has resisted this admin, at the going rate it seems like a Tweet is all it takes for him to redesign the ecosystem.
> Today's announcement from Apple further flies in the face of your arguments
Apple has always had a pitiful security bounty. It's why NSO Group burns their zero-days instead of disclosing them responsibly. Nobody cares what Apple will pay you if the exploit is worth more.
Mind you, Apple tried to sue NSO Group but then dropped the case after their federal handlers warned them of fighting with Israeli intel: https://www.securityweek.com/apple-suddenly-drops-nso-group-...
> you better trust them a whole lot more than any of us do
Who are you speaking for when you say "any of us do"? I don't know many technically competent people who would choose an Android device at retail over an iOS device at retail, and if you do, you should question their specific reason to see if they're competent.
Who are you speaking for when you say "any of us do"? I don't know many technically competent people who would choose an Android device at retail over an iOS device at retail, and if you do, you should question their specific reason to see if they're competent.
You know that's a false dichotomy. I can distrust Google's Play Services and firmware while also distrusting Apple's entire OS for exactly the same reasons. "Any of us" is referring to the hacker who esteems caution over brand loyalty. Your trust is excessive, and your evidence is perfunctory.
If we're in agreement that the frogs are boiling, you need to stop making veiled threats towards a monopoly and take action if you want to save yourself. There is no point in moralizing Apple's decisions when the abuse of their top-down control has already led to real-life censorship. The point of my whole combative comment chain is to snap you out of the ludicrous fantasy that your personal politics will triumph over the economy or sitting administration. You have already lost, your ownership of an iPhone is the loudest approval of Apple's behavior you can possibly voice. Victimize yourself all you want, you're the one asking your telecom to ship you the Apple phone.
Get this into your head: Tim Cook is not aligned with you - you are aligned with him. He isn't going to read your hand-wringing "as a long time Apple user..." comment and reconsider his life goals. Why would he? You aren't a priority to him, he is the CEO of a monopoly. All he has to worry about, to ensure his continued success, is currying government favor and selling new products. No need to listen to you in a market that doesn't compete. His RSUs are worth exponentially more when he skips your "valuable feedback" to fabricate more consolation prizes for the president. It's simple economics.
If we're in agreement that the frogs are boiling, you need to stop making veiled threats towards a monopoly and take action if you want to save yourself. There is no point in moralizing Apple's decisions when the abuse of their top-down control has already led to real-life censorship. The point of my whole combative comment chain is to snap you out of the ludicrous fantasy that your personal politics will triumph over the economy or sitting administration. You have already lost, your ownership of an iPhone is the loudest approval of Apple's behavior you can possibly voice. Victimize yourself all you want, you're the one asking your telecom to ship you the Apple phone.
Get this into your head: Tim Cook is not aligned with you - you are aligned with him. He isn't going to read your hand-wringing "as a long time Apple user..." comment and reconsider his life goals. Why would he? You aren't a priority to him, he is the CEO of a monopoly. All he has to worry about, to ensure his continued success, is currying government favor and selling new products. No need to listen to you in a market that doesn't compete. His RSUs are worth exponentially more when he skips your "valuable feedback" to fabricate more consolation prizes for the president. It's simple economics.
> I can distrust Google's Play Services and firmware while also distrusting Apple's entire OS for exactly the same reasons.
"exactly the same reasons" undercuts your entire argument
Android and iOS are more dissimilar than Windows and macOS. You need to be more aware of the moving parts if you wish to compare them or have a distrust based in fact.
> The point of my whole combative comment chain is to snap you out of the ludicrous fantasy that your personal politics will triumph over the economy or sitting administration.
You have failed at your stated goal, as your comment has not changed my opinion. Perhaps if you tried a non-combative, more-informed approach on your next reply you can sway someone's opinion to be closer to your own.
> It's simple economics.
Three wordy paragraphs with a trite ending claiming you've made a simple argument anywhere here.
"exactly the same reasons" undercuts your entire argument
Android and iOS are more dissimilar than Windows and macOS. You need to be more aware of the moving parts if you wish to compare them or have a distrust based in fact.
> The point of my whole combative comment chain is to snap you out of the ludicrous fantasy that your personal politics will triumph over the economy or sitting administration.
You have failed at your stated goal, as your comment has not changed my opinion. Perhaps if you tried a non-combative, more-informed approach on your next reply you can sway someone's opinion to be closer to your own.
> It's simple economics.
Three wordy paragraphs with a trite ending claiming you've made a simple argument anywhere here.
Switch phones to what? A company whose entire business model is tracking and selling ads that also took the app offline?
Oh good, the "grass is never greener" arguement!
You don't have to use a smartphone. You can buy a flip phone, a $20 Android handset or even a Linux burner that handles SMS, takes photos and keeps your voicemail. Or you could use no phone at all.
You don't have to use a smartphone. You can buy a flip phone, a $20 Android handset or even a Linux burner that handles SMS, takes photos and keeps your voicemail. Or you could use no phone at all.
Right - and lose directions, the ability to use messaging apps I use for work, and “using no phone” so I can’t contact anyone?
Mobile data and maps will stay, if you trust a WWAN modem enough. Your messaging apps for work should be on a work device, not your personal phone.
And yes, using "no phone" is a perfectly amicable solution to the problem. I know, it sounds wild. You can still make it 24 hours without touching Instagram in 2025, I've checked myself.
And yes, using "no phone" is a perfectly amicable solution to the problem. I know, it sounds wild. You can still make it 24 hours without touching Instagram in 2025, I've checked myself.
You said “no phone” as in no method for anyone to contact me.
PWA baby!
Why not make a PWA? What does a full app offer that a PWA can't?
Access to a passive user base that only knows of the App Store and software they've been given permission to run.
Just make it a website. The PWA brand doesn’t really work anymore, outside developer circles.
> To maintain anonymity and store zero user data, there is and can be no web app version of ICEBlock. There is and can be no Android version. Only iOS supports the security and privacy features for ICEBlock to offer what it does, the way it does.
I don't know if that's true but that's their claim
I don't know if that's true but that's their claim
Why does anything remotely critical of Trumps fascist regime get [flagged] on Hacker News ?
Probably fear of retribution or Garry being politically conservative himself. Garry has repeatedly called for more authoritarian policing in the SF area.
Trolls. I hadn't even noticed until I read your post.
Because Bush was a fascist and McCain and Romney were going to be too.
What is the big deal about apps? Is the app store their cathedral? Why can't they use shady web sites like the rest of us common infidels?
Historian Timothy Snyder’s first lesson in his book On Tyranny is “Do not obey in advance.” To obey a tyrant before you are compelled to do so teaches them what they will be able to get you to do, easily, without even needing to expend the resources and energy it takes to carry out that part of their agenda.