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NeverFade

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NeverFade
·قبل 5 سنوات·discuss
This is not how totalitarian regimes were created in the past.

Once expressions of ideas are effectively banned, you are in a totalitarian, oppressive regime. It doesn't matter whether that banning was done by the state or by huge monopolistic corporations: the end result is the same.

Also, in this case, while corporations are leading the way, we also see increasingly loud calls for our government to step in and criminalize some forms of speech, for example those deemed "hate speech": https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/13/magazine/free-speech.html

This is really a two-pronged attack on free speech and the free exchange of ideas: in the private sphere, individuals and companies move to effectively ban certain expressions, such as the publication of "objectionable" books. In the public sphere, there are moves to criminalize "objectionable" expressions.

The actions in each sphere reciprocally support each other, and normalize the idea that the free exchange of ideas must be policed and restricted.
NeverFade
·قبل 5 سنوات·discuss
You are not arguing honestly here. You are just defending this decision by any means you have, honest or dishonest.

The books will be preserved, much like banned books in the Soviet unions typically were preserved, in some government archive.

The millions of readers of our generation, who had access to these books because they were offered for sale, will no longer have access to them.

My parents read these books to me. I will not be able to read them to my children.

"Nobody will miss them" is an incredibly false and irrelevant argument. Nobody "missed" all the books in the Soviet union that were blocked by the commissars and never published. How is that a valid justification for this happening in the US now?

You are justifying book banning, pure and simple, and you are using any available argument, and many dishonest ones, to do it. Ultimately, you yourself don't understand why you do this. You just follow the cancel mob.

I am a member of a minority that is supposed to be offended by these books. I am not. I would bet anything that you were not personally offended if you ever read them, too.

But the Cancel Mob has mobilized and you are mindlessly following, because it is the convenient choice, the easy choice, the SAFE choice.
NeverFade
·قبل 5 سنوات·discuss
> No one is trying to cancel Dr Seuss. No one is suggesting that he was a bad or hateful person.

This is factually false, as we have people in this comment thread who claim that Dr Seuss was always a clear, known racist:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26360503

I'm sure some people who support the cancellation of 6 of his books see it, like you, as just these 6 books being cancelled, and not as a complete destruction and cancellation of Dr. Seuss as a person.

However, as we've all seen in past cancellations, once you start labeling any specific act of a person as "cancelable", the mob will typically proceed to label the entire person cancelable.

This really is the normal progression, and we already see it in comments like the one I linked. If Dr. Seuss somehow escapes this fate, and isn't labeled overall "objectionable" and canceled wholesale - then it would be an exception, likely made precisely because he is such a mainstream figure, because he was in fact highly liberal even in his time, and in order to make this argument that you just made: that we are merely cancelling 6 of his books, and not all his books and everything about him.

In other words, parts of the mob decided that at this point, it will be a little too shocking to cancel such a mainstream, beloved, liberal figure, so unlike practically every other instance of Cancel Culture, in which the entire person and everything pertaining to them was canceled as soon as any "sin" was found, in this case only these specific books will be canceled.

Normally Dr. Seuss and his entire legacy would labeled "objectionable" and canceled, and parts of the mob are certainly eager to do that, as in the comment I've linked.

As someone who read Dr. Seuss as a child, I disagree that there are any "hurtful" representations in his books. There are cartoonish representations, which also exist in many, many other mediums, notably caricatures, cartoons, and animated shorts.

Incidentally, I am a member of one of these minorities who were supposed to be "offended" by these depictions. I am not.

This is all an instance of Cancel Culture, par excellence. To pretend otherwise is dishonest, and to pretend that nobody is trying to cancel Dr. Seuss is demonstrably false.
NeverFade
·قبل 5 سنوات·discuss
Do you have any evidence for that at all, or is this standard counterfactual leftist revisionism?

Also, if Dr. Seuss was always so racist, how come the left embraced him until very very recently?

Are you seriously claiming that all the many people on the left, including Obama, were embracing a clear and known racist as recently as a few months ago?
NeverFade
·قبل 5 سنوات·discuss
No, revisionism is pretending canonical books like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_to_Think_That_I_Saw_It_on_... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_I_Ran_the_Zoo are not important just because you don't remember them.

Nobody will miss these books because they have been erased. Nobody missed banned books in the USSR either.
NeverFade
·قبل 5 سنوات·discuss
eBay can ban sales of books on its platform, and has done so.

The copyright holder / publisher can prevent any publication of books it holds copyright to, and has done so.

Distributors of books, like Amazon, can stop selling books they disagree with, and have now starting doing that too.

So the answer to your question is: all the above.
NeverFade
·قبل 5 سنوات·discuss
If an idea can't be communicated, for example because books carrying it are systematically cancelled, then that idea is being banned.

This is what happens when Amazon, for example, bans books that express views of transgenderism with which Amazon employees disagree.
NeverFade
·قبل 5 سنوات·discuss
The point is that the left is expanding the concept of "freedom from harm" to such an extreme and paradoxical degree, that it eliminates all freedoms.

If we are all "free" to not ever be offended, then nobody has any sort of freedom at all, because any expression or action might be offensive to someone, somewhere, at some point.

As soon as anyone is willing to claim offense (which is actively encouraged by the left), whatever happens to offend them is banned and cancelled.

We are actively cancelling books, people, scientific research, and numerous other ideas and expressions. Our politicians are explicitly promoting government-mandated limits on "offensive speech".

If you object or resist any of these social trends, you are a bigot, and you will be cancelled.

We are not yet in a 1984 zero-freedom Marxist dystopia, but we are well on our way there. The ideological foundations for this dystopia have been laid and accepted by most on the left, including those unaware of their ultimate outcome.

Marx and his original supporters likewise didn't intend or foresee the Soviet totalitarian dystopia that resulted from their ideology.

Much like leftists today, they excused incursions on individual freedom because it will lead to "greater good" such as "freedom from harm", "freedom from want", etc.

It ended with gulags, commissars, purges, mass executions, genocide, and the elimination of all actual human freedoms in pursuit of some idealized, self-contradictory mirage of "perfect freedom".

This was not intended, but it's also not an accident. Once you ideologically commit to sacrificing individual freedom in pursuit of other goals (social justice, a socialist Utopia, etc) then totalitarian oppression becomes a distinct possibility - arguably, an inevitability.
NeverFade
·قبل 5 سنوات·discuss
"What's the problem banning a few controversial books? We still publish thousands of books we deem acceptable!"

> He hasn't been cancelled, it's just that a few of the more egregious books are being discontinued. Horton Hears a Who? Still a great message. The Grinch? Still great

You are clearly in favor of banning ideas you disagree with. Nice to see you are fine with the publication of books when you approve of their "message".
NeverFade
·قبل 5 سنوات·discuss
Nothing bad has ever happened as long as everyone "just follows orders"!
NeverFade
·قبل 5 سنوات·discuss
It's enforcement for the sake of enforcement.

"Racism" used to mean that you were actually and actively promoting a racist mindset. Now the Leftist Mob persecutes people for, essentially, making mistakes that superficially look like racism. Donald G. McNeil was fired and cancelled from the New York Times for asking whether someone used a racial slur, in the context of talking about racial slurs. A Chinese professor was cancelled for teaching a Mandarin word that sounds (vaguely) like a racial slur.

Nobody really thinks any of these people are racist. But control must be enforced, that is the point. Catching someone uttering a "forbidden word" is just an excuse.

The point isn't to eliminate racism, sexism, or any of these other bigoted discriminations which have long been illegal in the US. The point is to exercise absolute control over our thoughts, expressions, and behavior - and make us accept that control, view it as normal, justifiable, and even desirable.
NeverFade
·قبل 5 سنوات·discuss
> All views of freedom are paradoxical other than the most basic view, which is that everyone has the freedom to do anything to anyone.

No, there is a valid view of individual freedom that is limited by other people's freedom. In fact, that's the traditional American view of freedom.

I have the freedom to do anything that doesn't actively restrict the freedom of others. I can walk into an empty space. I can't walk into a space you occupy.

> Political philosophy consists of more than a worrisome story written eighty years ago.

If only 1984 was just "a worrisome story written eighty years ago".

Instead, it describes the totalitarian regime created by Marxist takeover of the Soviet union.

We are now experiencing an attempted Marxist takeover of our own society.

Books are being banned. Ideas are becoming unacceptable, shunned, erased from public discourse, and from our memories.

President Obama praised, quoted, and recommended Dr. Seuss's books in official press releases throughout his presidency, all the way to his last year as president - 2015:

https://nypost.com/2021/03/03/barack-and-michelle-obama-prai...

But now, barely 6 years later, the Leftist Mob has come for Dr. Seuss, and we're all bullied to recite that Dr. Seuss is racist, was racist, has always been racist.

And his books are, accordingly, being erased. Cancelled.

To quote Orwell: "The past was alterable. The past never had been altered."

The real point isn't that Dr. Seuss is actually racist (he never was), but to condition us to reject, ban, and shun "unacceptable" ideas, thoughts, and expressions - on social command.

The overarching theme here is control: in the leftist vision, society must control and regulate the consciousness of all its members, in order to create a perfect Utopian centrally-controlled society.
NeverFade
·قبل 5 سنوات·discuss
So if our lives are effectively controlled by huge corporations, then we should accept that simply because they are technically companies and not the government?
NeverFade
·قبل 5 سنوات·discuss
One of the books they banned, "And to Think That I Saw It on Mulberry Street", was Dr. Seuss's breakthrough work, and certainly not "obscure". Another, "If I Ran the Zoo", is widely considered among his best.

These are both very much among his classics.
NeverFade
·قبل 5 سنوات·discuss
Indeed, the arbitrariness of the leftist standards, and how easily and frequently they are liable to change, is in fact the point.

President Obama praised, quoted, and recommended Dr. Seuss's books in official press releases throughout his presidency, all the way to his last year as president - 2015:

https://nypost.com/2021/03/03/barack-and-michelle-obama-prai...

But now, barely 6 years later, the Leftist Mob has come for Dr. Seuss, and we're all bullied to recite that Dr. Seuss is racist, was racist, has always been racist.

To quote Orwell: "The past was alterable. The past never had been altered."

The real point isn't that Dr. Seuss is actually racist (he never was), but to condition us to reject, ban, erase and cancel "unacceptable" ideas, thoughts, and expressions - on social command.

The overarching theme here is control: in the leftist vision, society must control and regulate the consciousness of all its members, in order to create a perfect Utopian centrally-controlled society.
NeverFade
·قبل 5 سنوات·discuss
> And "Politically Incorrect" is sure a gentle way of describing the content. Maybe you should quote the line from the article you linked which describes some of the "politically incorrect" bits? Or do you recognize that they're actually pretty offensive.

President Obama praised, quoted, and recommended Dr. Seuss's books in official press releases throughout his presidency, all the way to his last year as president - 2015:

https://nypost.com/2021/03/03/barack-and-michelle-obama-prai...

But now the Woke Mob has come for Dr. Seuss, and we're all instructed to recite that Dr. Seuss is racist, was racist, has always been racist.

To quote Orwell: "The past was alterable. The past never had been altered. Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia."
NeverFade
·قبل 5 سنوات·discuss
Yes, there are views of "freedom" that are paradoxical. In fact, that's precisely the view that 1984 presents, with the party's second motto: "Freedom is Slavery".

What the woke mob is doing right now is to extend this paradoxical definition of "freedom" to the extent that nobody will have any (real) freedom at all.

In a nutshell, the woke argument is: "I should have the 'freedom' from being offended, and this 'freedom' overrides and cancels all your freedoms."

For example, in this case: "I am offended by the idea that someone, somewhere, will read a book containing ideas I dislike, therefore your very important rights to publish and read such books are hereby revoked".

This is the same line of reasoning that led to the establishment of totalitarian utopias (favored by Marcuse) which inevitably end up as 1984-style dystopia.
NeverFade
·قبل 5 سنوات·discuss
This newfound moral outrage is hilarious. President Obama praised and recommended Dr. Seuss books in an official press release as recently as 2015, his last year as president. Now they are suddenly "outrageous and unacceptable".
NeverFade
·قبل 5 سنوات·discuss
The free market gets distorted under monopoly conditions.

If I'm Disney, and I own millions of works, I can start banning some of them on a whim. My bottom line won't be meaningfully affected.

> They have decided they don't want to facilitate the transaction, which is their right as a free enterprise.

It was the legal right (duty, in fact) of Soviet commissars to vet any book before publication. The net effect was book-banning.

Just because something is legal doesn't mean it won't lead to catastrophic consequences.

Standard Oil's complete monopolistic takeover of the US oil market was also legal at its time. Then we decided we can't live with these results and made laws against them.
NeverFade
·قبل 5 سنوات·discuss
> The marketplaces are just following orders.

First of all, hat-tip for using that chilling phrase in this unintentionally appropriate context.

Furthermore, eBay is a secondary market bookseller. As such, they facilitate legal sales of privately-owned books between individuals. They have absolutely no duty to "follow orders" by a publisher. In fact, publishers would shut down all secondary markets if they could - it would help their sales of new books.

Nowhere in the article is it mentioned that a publisher "ordered" eBay to stop selling the books, and such "order" would be invalid and ridiculous.

This is a decision by eBay to flex their corporate muscles to ban books they find politically disagreeable.