France bids to reverse tech brain drain(bbc.co.uk)
bbc.co.uk
France bids to reverse tech brain drain
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34243967
134 comments
My impression living in France for the last year is very similar to yours. It's the mecca of paperwork (but doing taxes was relatively easy).
And if you're required to supply some documentation from another country, you're likely to be required to get it translated to French by an official translator (which not only takes time but can be quite expensive). In contrast, I've never had a problem handing in German documents to authorities in Sweden and Swedish documents to authorities in Austria. Documents in English have certainly been accepted everywhere outside of France.
The catch-22s are the best. Renting an apartment requires that you have a French bank account, and getting a French bank account requires that you already have somewhere to live in France...
And if you're required to supply some documentation from another country, you're likely to be required to get it translated to French by an official translator (which not only takes time but can be quite expensive). In contrast, I've never had a problem handing in German documents to authorities in Sweden and Swedish documents to authorities in Austria. Documents in English have certainly been accepted everywhere outside of France.
The catch-22s are the best. Renting an apartment requires that you have a French bank account, and getting a French bank account requires that you already have somewhere to live in France...
> Renting an apartment requires that you have a French bank account, and getting a French bank account requires that you already have somewhere to live in France...
Had the same :) But it is not really true. You can get a french bank account without living in France, got mine while living in Germany. But of course not all people working for a bank know or respect that. We got checked by my consellier very carefully before she said oui to opening the account.
Nice is the other one: To get an appartment you normally have to have an insurance, but to get that you need an appartment. Works with the landlord accepting to get the assurance attestation one week later, but is goodwill. Of course, a couple from marokko I know did not get the key from the man responsible in such a situation, while getting the appartment because it was university housing. They stood on the street after arriving here… That was pure racism, but shows that many thing here need goodwill to work despite the system.
Had the same :) But it is not really true. You can get a french bank account without living in France, got mine while living in Germany. But of course not all people working for a bank know or respect that. We got checked by my consellier very carefully before she said oui to opening the account.
Nice is the other one: To get an appartment you normally have to have an insurance, but to get that you need an appartment. Works with the landlord accepting to get the assurance attestation one week later, but is goodwill. Of course, a couple from marokko I know did not get the key from the man responsible in such a situation, while getting the appartment because it was university housing. They stood on the street after arriving here… That was pure racism, but shows that many thing here need goodwill to work despite the system.
The catch-22 applies to U.S. as well. Renting an apartment requires a credit score, which you get from having a credit card, which you can only get by having a credit score.
Well, that's not entirely true. I went through the process somewhat recently, and you can get a credit card by depositing some money first and using that as your max credit. That way the bank doesn't take any risk but you can build up your credit.
It's called a secured credit card... as in it's secured by your balance with the bank. Using it helps build your credit score and history so you can get a standard credit card. I have a friend doing this now who's just never used credit before.
It's more of an issue today since so many people just use their debit cards whereas years ago people used cash and credit cards. If you wanted the convenience of not carrying cash, you had to use your credit card since ATM cards didn't have Mastercard/Visa logos and couldn't be used to pay for things in stores. That's how today you wind up with someone in their late 20s that's never had a credit card or a loan.
It's more of an issue today since so many people just use their debit cards whereas years ago people used cash and credit cards. If you wanted the convenience of not carrying cash, you had to use your credit card since ATM cards didn't have Mastercard/Visa logos and couldn't be used to pay for things in stores. That's how today you wind up with someone in their late 20s that's never had a credit card or a loan.
> That's how today you wind up with someone in their late 20s that's never had a credit card or a loan.
This was me till I was 28. I was able to skip having to use a secured credit card by getting a joint card with someone who already has great credit.
This was me till I was 28. I was able to skip having to use a secured credit card by getting a joint card with someone who already has great credit.
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There are starter cards for people that don't have an established credit history. It's really not complicated - stop trying to make it out to be something it's not
Typically it's very easy to get a credit card from an institution with which you have a checking or savings account. I wouldn't be surprised if you had to "opt out" at this point in order to NOT receive one based on how aggressively companies target people new to the credit market. (This is especially true for college students who routinely get cards thrown at them with insane limits)
I've been an American 40 years and never had a credit score or a credit report and never borrowed any money (the three agencies don't know who I am). Nevertheless, I can rent apartments. I just have to have a lot of cash available for deposits.
> The catch-22s are the best. Renting an apartment requires that you have a French bank account, and getting a French bank account requires that you already have somewhere to live in France...
Not specific to France - I had the same experience as a French in Berlin (though it was twenty years ago - it might have changed).
Not specific to France - I had the same experience as a French in Berlin (though it was twenty years ago - it might have changed).
And same in the UK. Ultimately, it can be worked around if you find the right people in the right mood, but it's insanely annoying.
Sweden was the worst on that aspect. Most owners require that you have a company signing the lease on your behalf (supposedly to guarantee the rent, yet they generally refuse advance payments on the rent).
Sweden was the worst on that aspect. Most owners require that you have a company signing the lease on your behalf (supposedly to guarantee the rent, yet they generally refuse advance payments on the rent).
Changed. Does not matter where you send the money from anymore, and european virements are pretty painless.
Same in UK as well, took one month for me to open a bank account after I moved to London. Had to do a driving license + insurance number, nightmare.
Re the catch-22: I wonder the degree to which you're affected by this depends on how seriously you take it (sort of like Kafka's "The Trial"). Could you maybe just supply any address (your workplace, some other contact) and get round it that way? There's still a handful of people who this won't help - folks rich/skilled enough to move countries without having a job or contacts and those unfortunate enough to have fled another and entered as a refugee.
You have the right answer sadly... It's just impossible to grasp the stupid amount of paperwork you have to fill for everything. As an example I needed more paperwork for my train rail-card than my passport (this is not a joke, it was really the case). In the UK, I just give a 10 pound note and I have my oyster card, no questions asked. My brother has a small business, it's just impossible to understand what the administration wants and they take ages to answer to stupid things we should not even have to fill, I really hope that one day, they will destroy the current bureaucracy and the country could finally have the place it deserves internationally. /rant
They were enlightened enough to separate State from Church but not State from Market.
This is misleading.
Many many countries are worse ...
And the level of bureaucracy is not the same everywhere in France. Education is a very conservative administration. Universities even more so, because they don't have much money (it's very different than in the US), so they stick to the process (with paper) they have.
In the private sector, this is quite different. Also many company-focused administrations (URSAAF, CIPAV) provides web site/app where you can manage your file. It is not perfect, but it's getting better every year. I think my accountant is doing 80% of her job digitally.
Many many countries are worse ...
And the level of bureaucracy is not the same everywhere in France. Education is a very conservative administration. Universities even more so, because they don't have much money (it's very different than in the US), so they stick to the process (with paper) they have.
In the private sector, this is quite different. Also many company-focused administrations (URSAAF, CIPAV) provides web site/app where you can manage your file. It is not perfect, but it's getting better every year. I think my accountant is doing 80% of her job digitally.
> It is still the most bureaucratic country on earth.
Not really! Italian here, living in France for the last ten years: France bureaucracy can occasionally be pedantic, but no French paperwork has made me miss Italy.
Not really! Italian here, living in France for the last ten years: France bureaucracy can occasionally be pedantic, but no French paperwork has made me miss Italy.
To be fair cheques are still popular in France and regularly used by administration, landlords and individuals.
To be fair cheques are also popular in the US. Until recently I had to pay my rent with Cheque. I live in an apartment complex in San Francisco.
Almost certainly because your landlord is in their 70s and doesn't trust all this newfangled computers stuff.
I have one of those.
I have one of those.
My German bank doesn't even offer cheque books anymore.
Cash is King is Germany.
It's rather awkward if you come from a country with heavy card use. It's just weird to carry a few hundred euros in cash in your pocket these days.
It's rather awkward if you come from a country with heavy card use. It's just weird to carry a few hundred euros in cash in your pocket these days.
You need cash in Germany, but not a lot of it – everything big takes a debit card. That does not help strangers with their credit cards though, so they get the wrong impression.
I pay cash at the bakery, to get a coffee, to load my canteen card at work, and to buy bus tickets in small cities at the driver, that's it. Buying used cars is usually done by cash (even 10k and more). Almost everywhere else you can pay with a German debit card (Girocard).
But credit Cards are coming fast to Germany. Since a few weeks even the cheapest supermarkets, including Aldi, started to accept MasterCard and Visa.
But credit Cards are coming fast to Germany. Since a few weeks even the cheapest supermarkets, including Aldi, started to accept MasterCard and Visa.
>The problem with credit cards in Germany is that they don't use 2FA. It's the same old signature system. Even online transactions don't require 2FA.
This is not generally true. My credit cards use PIN when the terminal supports it and only fall back to signature when used with older terminals.
I've never heard of online transactions with 1FA auth, most banks use a combination of user login and challenge-response TAN lists or mobile TANs. Special hardware devices that require you to insert your debit card, enter a PIN and have the device read a code directly from the computer monitor using photo diodes are quite common, too.
This is not generally true. My credit cards use PIN when the terminal supports it and only fall back to signature when used with older terminals.
I've never heard of online transactions with 1FA auth, most banks use a combination of user login and challenge-response TAN lists or mobile TANs. Special hardware devices that require you to insert your debit card, enter a PIN and have the device read a code directly from the computer monitor using photo diodes are quite common, too.
The problem with credit cards in Germany is that they don't use 2FA. It's the same old signature system. Even online transactions don't require 2FA.
It depends on where you get it. Some banks (most notoriously almost all Sparkasse) only give out chip+signature cards. But chip+PIN cards are common as well, just like "Verified by Visa" and such systems.
> Some banks (most notoriously almost all Sparkasse)
Coincidentally, I have a Sparkasse credit card without chip+pin. Regardless, there shouldn't be a choice for 2FA.
Coincidentally, I have a Sparkasse credit card without chip+pin. Regardless, there shouldn't be a choice for 2FA.
That really depends on the specific bank. I've got a debit card from a Sparkasse with Chip+PIN and 2FA for online transaction for quite a few years.
The discussion was on "credit" not "debit" card. The "debit" card for Sparkasse does have 2FA but the TAN based 2FA is atrocious. You need to carry a separate device, match diodes to your screen code OR insert at least 4 sets of numbers before you get your 2FA code. Yes, I know you could use SMS but it isn't the best idea particularly if you are traveling.
Finally, is the EC Maestro card from Sparkaasse really a debit card? A lot of online merchants would not accept it.
Finally, is the EC Maestro card from Sparkaasse really a debit card? A lot of online merchants would not accept it.
Thanks for correcting, not being there too often currently things like credit cards arriving there I miss. That was unthinkable three years ago.
I was surprised, too. Remember that they introduced cashless payments just ten years ago.
I think it has much to do with the EU capping interbank fees.
I think it has much to do with the EU capping interbank fees.
I think the real reason is that Germany had working debit cards for a very long time already, there was simply no need for credit cards. Every bank and store was accepting every banks's debit card. Since the big international credit card companies cream of a couple of percent when you pay with a credit card, but German debit cards don't, retail was really reluctant for a long time to accept credit cards.
Yes it is quite strange (and annoying) but you get used to it.
Exactly. And virements (bank transfer) are really strange, at least with my bank (wait 24 hours to send money, I never saw that before). For me, that fits well into the image of a country that is not at all modern.
But: That at least changed. They are still popular like you said, but by now you can get by without them (I for example have none), many stores do not accept them anymore. That is new.
But: That at least changed. They are still popular like you said, but by now you can get by without them (I for example have none), many stores do not accept them anymore. That is new.
What to say about the US (and Canada) where cheap transfers between bank accounts don't exist (at least from individual to individual)
Yes, where it exists it's rarely instantaneous across banks
Yes, where it exists it's rarely instantaneous across banks
There was a good Planet Money episode on this phenomenon[1].
The short version is that, apparently unlike most European countries, there are thousands and thousands of banks in the U.S., each operating under both Federal and one of 50 different state regulatory regimes.
It's also the case that the U.S. was one of the first countries to move to electronic interbank check clearing and funds transfer, and the resulting clearinghouse is a big hairy legacy system that they're not particularly inclined or motivated to mess with.
[1] http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/10/04/229224964/episo...
The short version is that, apparently unlike most European countries, there are thousands and thousands of banks in the U.S., each operating under both Federal and one of 50 different state regulatory regimes.
It's also the case that the U.S. was one of the first countries to move to electronic interbank check clearing and funds transfer, and the resulting clearinghouse is a big hairy legacy system that they're not particularly inclined or motivated to mess with.
[1] http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/10/04/229224964/episo...
Well, it sounds really impolite saying that. But you can probably guess what I think of it: I think it is really strange that a nation as modern as the USA is in that regard 100 years behind basically all other industrial nations.
Though instantaneous they are also not in Germany, can take some time to arrive.
Though instantaneous they are also not in Germany, can take some time to arrive.
Sure they do, in Canada anyway. Interac email transfer is quick and painless, although it costs a dollar or so.
Not really, because the reference is their email (and the receiver has to 'receive' it), no?
I'm talking about giving someone your bank/branch/acc number and send them a payment.
I'm talking about giving someone your bank/branch/acc number and send them a payment.
Spain is exactly the same. Pointless paperwork again and again, asking for things they already know, asking for multiple copies of documents, etc. In fact, when I finished my PhD, in order to graduate they asked me for a birth certificate. A birth certificate!
I guess they don't want replicants to graduate.
I guess they don't want replicants to graduate.
They ask for a birth certificate here as well, already when starting. If you are foreigner, each year again. I guess they think the place of birth could've changed…
(French expat here, so impressions are from a few years ago and reading the press)
The tax people are generally competent, and there was a huge effort to streamline the process a few years ago. The rest of the French bureaucracy often lives somewhere in the middle ages ("of course you need to waste several hours by physically coming to our offices"). And the bastards are totally unable to communicate with each other. And that's the ones with funding. The parts which are criminally understaffed like Pôle Emploi (nominally tasked with finding work for the unemployed and distributing benefits), you really don't want to have to do anything with.
The tax people are generally competent, and there was a huge effort to streamline the process a few years ago. The rest of the French bureaucracy often lives somewhere in the middle ages ("of course you need to waste several hours by physically coming to our offices"). And the bastards are totally unable to communicate with each other. And that's the ones with funding. The parts which are criminally understaffed like Pôle Emploi (nominally tasked with finding work for the unemployed and distributing benefits), you really don't want to have to do anything with.
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There is a big incentive for any state to have a well run tax administration. It is the profit center for the state.
> On the other hand, doing the taxes was not at all complicated and I got proper help
Tax collection is relentless and very efficient - they act is if it was THEIR money. France can borrow at very little interest rate because it is known that it will repay its debts, it can collect the money for it.
Tax collection is relentless and very efficient - they act is if it was THEIR money. France can borrow at very little interest rate because it is known that it will repay its debts, it can collect the money for it.
I'm french, while it's true a lot of startup / opportunities in tech appeared in the last few years, most of them don't pay anything.
They all advertise "good work ethic", "good environment", "good whatever" like it justifies for you to be paid like a graduate for an experienced position. You want talent? Pay the price.
They all advertise "good work ethic", "good environment", "good whatever" like it justifies for you to be paid like a graduate for an experienced position. You want talent? Pay the price.
With a few exceptions, French employers are not the problem, they do pay the same price for you as in other European countries, more or less !
The difference is that your average engineer in France costs them around 1.5-2.5 times the total take home pay, because of high, compulsory labor taxes.
In exchange, employees get as standard :
* a top notch, virtually free healthcare system with no concept of exclusions or "pre-conditions"
* Usually no student loans to repay because their higher education was free, unless they went for a private business/engineering school but that's still an order of magnitude cheaper than a US university.
* a comfortable (unsustainable ?) state pension later on.
* unemployment insurance that covers around 70% pay for months.
* 5 weeks holiday + public holidays
If you're US-based, think about your monthly budget and what goes towards healthcare/co-pay, student loans, kids college fund, 401k, and building an emergency fund in case you get laid off / severely ill. None of that is strictly required in France (although some of it is available as extra private coverage, and a good idea)
This is why cross-border salary comparisons are pointless, it's really apples & oranges.
I'm French and living in London, and I'd personally rather have the freedom to have a higher take-home pay and contribute towards the above items myself as I see fit. But I'm not fooling myself thinking that because my take-home pay is twice as high each month, the math is as simple as that. I know that I'm so much more on my own here than at home...
In exchange, employees get as standard :
* a top notch, virtually free healthcare system with no concept of exclusions or "pre-conditions"
* Usually no student loans to repay because their higher education was free, unless they went for a private business/engineering school but that's still an order of magnitude cheaper than a US university.
* a comfortable (unsustainable ?) state pension later on.
* unemployment insurance that covers around 70% pay for months.
* 5 weeks holiday + public holidays
If you're US-based, think about your monthly budget and what goes towards healthcare/co-pay, student loans, kids college fund, 401k, and building an emergency fund in case you get laid off / severely ill. None of that is strictly required in France (although some of it is available as extra private coverage, and a good idea)
This is why cross-border salary comparisons are pointless, it's really apples & oranges.
I'm French and living in London, and I'd personally rather have the freedom to have a higher take-home pay and contribute towards the above items myself as I see fit. But I'm not fooling myself thinking that because my take-home pay is twice as high each month, the math is as simple as that. I know that I'm so much more on my own here than at home...
Interesting post. That being said, point one isn't that important for most young healthy people. Point three is in the distant future: I'd rather have a dollar today than one forty years from now. Point four is not very important for highly paid engineers.
Point two may be the most interesting one: for a given individual, it may make the most sense to get high-quality French education and then go out and earn high-end American wages that are keyed to U.S. education costs.
In short, France may be facing an arbitrage problem. People who are sick, old, or receiving educations have high incentives to stay. People who are young, healthy, and have already received educations have incentives to go where they can earn more today.
Point two may be the most interesting one: for a given individual, it may make the most sense to get high-quality French education and then go out and earn high-end American wages that are keyed to U.S. education costs.
In short, France may be facing an arbitrage problem. People who are sick, old, or receiving educations have high incentives to stay. People who are young, healthy, and have already received educations have incentives to go where they can earn more today.
Absolutely,
And short of counting on the young & healthy expats' patriotism and sense of duty (or going the US route and taxing citizens on their worldwide income) the only way out for France is to make itself slightly more attractive to net contributors / high earners again, by cutting taxes & benefits slightly, so that balance is restored.
But people and organizations on the receiving end of welfare will hear none of it and don't understand they're killing the golden goose. They'd much rather see a citizenship-based tax obligation like the US has (oddly, as it's a very socialist idea)
And short of counting on the young & healthy expats' patriotism and sense of duty (or going the US route and taxing citizens on their worldwide income) the only way out for France is to make itself slightly more attractive to net contributors / high earners again, by cutting taxes & benefits slightly, so that balance is restored.
But people and organizations on the receiving end of welfare will hear none of it and don't understand they're killing the golden goose. They'd much rather see a citizenship-based tax obligation like the US has (oddly, as it's a very socialist idea)
This a million times. Tech entrepreneurship works in the US and fails in other states because we're in this sweet spot of low taxes and low corruption, with high levels of education and easy access to a large and powerful economy.
Euro states have most of the above, but the high taxation and labor protections strangles little shops and scares investors (would you invest in a French startup? I wouldn't). Corrupt autocracies might have some of the above, but the corruption strangles these companies as well (invest in a startup where the assets could be nationalized instantly? Or having to pay a % of profits to endless bribes?)
Euro states have most of the above, but the high taxation and labor protections strangles little shops and scares investors (would you invest in a French startup? I wouldn't). Corrupt autocracies might have some of the above, but the corruption strangles these companies as well (invest in a startup where the assets could be nationalized instantly? Or having to pay a % of profits to endless bribes?)
"Tech entrepreneurship works in the US and fails in other states because we're in this sweet spot of low taxes and low corruption, with high levels of education and easy access to a large and powerful economy."
Corruption in the USA is typical for west Europe or NE Asia and taxes plus health care costs are slightly higher in the USA. Education levels are the same or lower than typical in Europe and NE Asia. None of that is essential in creating whatever advantage the USA has in tech entrepreneurship.
Labor 'protections' can strangle startups and a large economy with unified rules, unified payment systems, a common language, and unified distribution does help. But something about Silicon Valley in particular seems to be at the root of the difference.
Corruption in the USA is typical for west Europe or NE Asia and taxes plus health care costs are slightly higher in the USA. Education levels are the same or lower than typical in Europe and NE Asia. None of that is essential in creating whatever advantage the USA has in tech entrepreneurship.
Labor 'protections' can strangle startups and a large economy with unified rules, unified payment systems, a common language, and unified distribution does help. But something about Silicon Valley in particular seems to be at the root of the difference.
CA has relatively high taxes and labor protections vs other US states and it seems to do ok. I'd say that Euro nations have most of your list, but a high level of bureaucracy regarding business licensing and a conservative business climate (hesitancy to do commerce with new businesses).
America loves the new and shiny. In particular, the culture in CA is more than open to new ideas, often actively seeking newness. And I think that is at the root of the difference.
America loves the new and shiny. In particular, the culture in CA is more than open to new ideas, often actively seeking newness. And I think that is at the root of the difference.
I think his comparing startup vs established.
This "Reviens Léon" initiative is a masquerade and based on the grotesque idea that expats are not french because they crossed a border. Countries are not bound to frontiers anymore, if I'm growing a network out of my country, I'm becoming an ambassador of the whole french culture. How is that less beneficial to its international standing?
French companies and administrations deplore the lack of tech engineers, but at the same time, they don't bother to reduce the overwhelming amount of bureaucratie needed for foreigners (out of the EU) to come work in France. Sounds like the definition of hypocrisy to me.
French companies and administrations deplore the lack of tech engineers, but at the same time, they don't bother to reduce the overwhelming amount of bureaucratie needed for foreigners (out of the EU) to come work in France. Sounds like the definition of hypocrisy to me.
"Countries are not bound to frontiers anymore", well from a fiscal point of view it is, you got a free education while you were in France, and now you work and pay taxes in another country, which couldn't scale because it breaks the French system
I think he meant Nation rather than Country
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I don't have hard data, but only a feeling that it should be easier to bootstrap in France than in US. Assuming you have worked previously, you can get unemployment benefits, around 60% of your previous salary for a year, and are covered by universal healthcare. So even if you need to have open heart surgery, you won't bankrupt your family for the next 7 generations.
Actually someone (very brilliant) in my team is leaving next month to found a start up.
That being said, I also have the feeling that if you have some initial traction, it will be harder compared to US to get some early funding.
PS: I know that trying to compare to SV is a pretty futile exercise, since globally this is a big outlier.
Actually someone (very brilliant) in my team is leaving next month to found a start up.
That being said, I also have the feeling that if you have some initial traction, it will be harder compared to US to get some early funding.
PS: I know that trying to compare to SV is a pretty futile exercise, since globally this is a big outlier.
Our startup was created in France 2,5 years ago. Here is our experience:
Some of us started working on the project while getting unemployment benefits (huge boost).
We get (very) affordable office spaces from the city and various incubators (we are located in Paris).
We are able to live on first customers + 0% loans from the state + hundreds of thousands of euros in various grants for innovation (http://www.bpifrance.fr/), so we don't need to dilute our shares by raising funds too early.
We get no income taxes for the first years.
Employees have social security. Healthcare is cheap and very good.
Why would we want to start run company anywhere else?
Some of us started working on the project while getting unemployment benefits (huge boost).
We get (very) affordable office spaces from the city and various incubators (we are located in Paris).
We are able to live on first customers + 0% loans from the state + hundreds of thousands of euros in various grants for innovation (http://www.bpifrance.fr/), so we don't need to dilute our shares by raising funds too early.
We get no income taxes for the first years.
Employees have social security. Healthcare is cheap and very good.
Why would we want to start run company anywhere else?
Fellow french here. I left France last year officially to finish my studies, unofficially to launch my startup. Where? In Estonia:
- 250€ for the rent in a shared flat, everything included (winter time, so more 200€ the rest of the year) 10min by feet from the city center, in the most vibrant district.
- Free public transportation (but Tallinn being a human-sized city, it doesn't really matter).
- I incorporated and activated my bank account from my couch.
- Bureaucracy is close to non-existent here. When there is some, it's online (I was advised to register our trademark online by the councelor I was having a meeting with, we were in his office. His words: "it's simpler online").
- Offices are extremely affordable, the tech scene is small but really active and friendly (much like the rest of Estonia, you end up knowing everyone here: think Kevin Bacon degrees on steroids).
Estonia has drawbacks of course, just like every other country but far less than France in my book.
Don't get me wrong, I love France, but being a lucky european citizen, I decided to move abroad as I don't want to have to go physically somewhere to get a stamp, or send out 10 documents everytime I need to apply / get something (be it ID, passport, transportation card, renting a new flat, etc): I already have a work! :)
- 250€ for the rent in a shared flat, everything included (winter time, so more 200€ the rest of the year) 10min by feet from the city center, in the most vibrant district.
- Free public transportation (but Tallinn being a human-sized city, it doesn't really matter).
- I incorporated and activated my bank account from my couch.
- Bureaucracy is close to non-existent here. When there is some, it's online (I was advised to register our trademark online by the councelor I was having a meeting with, we were in his office. His words: "it's simpler online").
- Offices are extremely affordable, the tech scene is small but really active and friendly (much like the rest of Estonia, you end up knowing everyone here: think Kevin Bacon degrees on steroids).
Estonia has drawbacks of course, just like every other country but far less than France in my book.
Don't get me wrong, I love France, but being a lucky european citizen, I decided to move abroad as I don't want to have to go physically somewhere to get a stamp, or send out 10 documents everytime I need to apply / get something (be it ID, passport, transportation card, renting a new flat, etc): I already have a work! :)
How does healthcare work there?
Much like other european countries, compulsory "solidarity" through social taxes. As for the quality of the health care system, I have been lucky not to pay them a visit yet :) I was told that it's good though.
If you want more informations regarding the tax system: http://www.investinestonia.com/en/investment-guide/tax-syste...
If you want more informations regarding the tax system: http://www.investinestonia.com/en/investment-guide/tax-syste...
"Why would we want to start run company anywhere else?"
Rent? And living expenses in general. It's going to be you largest expense bootstrapping, especially since it's post tax. It also gets harder to invite people you know to come work with you and getting a larger/better suited apartment in general (location, contract terns, layout, furnished etc).
Not that this is that different from other big cities and I personally think Paris is one of the few that lives up to the hype. Still not preferred for early startups.
Rent? And living expenses in general. It's going to be you largest expense bootstrapping, especially since it's post tax. It also gets harder to invite people you know to come work with you and getting a larger/better suited apartment in general (location, contract terns, layout, furnished etc).
Not that this is that different from other big cities and I personally think Paris is one of the few that lives up to the hype. Still not preferred for early startups.
If you look at the rent, Paris is actually much cheaper than London, NYC and SF. You could go to Berlin of course.
Frankly, if you are an early stage startup with young people Paris is not the cheapest, but you have access to everything: public transportation is free if you are officially unemployed and living with roommates can make everything much cheaper!
Frankly, if you are an early stage startup with young people Paris is not the cheapest, but you have access to everything: public transportation is free if you are officially unemployed and living with roommates can make everything much cheaper!
In Berlin apartments are absurdly cheap. You can live on < 1000 euros a month nicely. Contrast that with SF where you have your media $3700 a month apartment!
That degree of risk-eliminating subsidy should indeed light a fire under entrepreneurship (while the gravy train can keep moving). Do you suppose the benefits are commesurate with the costs? IOW, are there enough new companies thusly incubated that become self-supporting or better?
What would you say are the costs to compare to the benefits?
In my opinion, it would have be extremely difficult to bootstrap our company anywhere else. As everyone knows, getting out of cash is what kills early stage companies. We go access to "free cash" (0% loans and more than 100k€ in grants) and some of our employees got paid on unemployment benefits .. I mean, how much further could you go? We survived thank to this benefits.
In my opinion, it would have be extremely difficult to bootstrap our company anywhere else. As everyone knows, getting out of cash is what kills early stage companies. We go access to "free cash" (0% loans and more than 100k€ in grants) and some of our employees got paid on unemployment benefits .. I mean, how much further could you go? We survived thank to this benefits.
So one wonders why there's a problem because evidently there is.
Could you elaborate?
Because I see this: http://techcrunch.com/2014/07/01/blablacar-raises-a-massive-...
And this: http://1000startups.fr/?lang=en
And I see Paris being startup-heaven in a couple of years. And things are already pretty nice!
Because I see this: http://techcrunch.com/2014/07/01/blablacar-raises-a-massive-...
And this: http://1000startups.fr/?lang=en
And I see Paris being startup-heaven in a couple of years. And things are already pretty nice!
French expat here, considering coming back. I just checked bpifrance.fr you linked, and... it's really badly designed. The navigation is really made really complex (you need to know exactly what you are looking for in order to get the information to it, and you can't go back without changing the URL of the page) and the page is slow as hell.
I may still come back to France, but this page is not encouraging.
I may still come back to France, but this page is not encouraging.
You comment is actually pretty interesting.
I see a lot of French people convinced that France is worse than anywhere else in the world. Everything that is done in France is seen as "not good enough" by many French. It's an attitude problem and might be the reason why so many of us move away, convinced that "things are better out there".
Maybe the biggest problem with having the state do so much for us is that it makes many people act like spoiled kids: they see things as not-perfect-enough and are easily discouraged.
I see a lot of French people convinced that France is worse than anywhere else in the world. Everything that is done in France is seen as "not good enough" by many French. It's an attitude problem and might be the reason why so many of us move away, convinced that "things are better out there".
Maybe the biggest problem with having the state do so much for us is that it makes many people act like spoiled kids: they see things as not-perfect-enough and are easily discouraged.
This is free money man, pick up your phone and call them instead of complaining about their website design :)
It's not exclusive. I know many startups who have one foot in the states, one foot in China (when some hardware is needed), and the head in France.
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If you are a founder without a salary then you get none of that. You are considered unemployed during the whole time you manage your company.
I grew up in France; gradutated from University (so not from French Ivy League known as "Les Grandes Ecoles").
I'm currently in a consulting position and tried to launch several startups-ideas at the end of my MS degree with the "Auto-Entrepreneur" status and it was very difficult to find investors because french people are very pessimistic by nature and the atmosphere created by the state and the media is really oppresive.
It means that if you fail (and I failed), people around you will break your mood down (very hard to handle that).
You need to find your team of talented people who will be ready to use their own money to reduce costs. It's almost impossible to recruit someone you don't personnaly know without a large amount of cash. Splitting equity seems to be not attractive enough with french tech engineers...
The one and only advantage in France is that you can restart your life because you can easily avoid indebtedness in case of failure.
You need to find your team of talented people who will be ready to use their own money to reduce costs. It's almost impossible to recruit someone you don't personnaly know without a large amount of cash. Splitting equity seems to be not attractive enough with french tech engineers...
The one and only advantage in France is that you can restart your life because you can easily avoid indebtedness in case of failure.
I've been a French expat in London for 5 years and I used to think like you.
Having recently reconnected with Paris' tech scene though, things have changed a lot wrt to failure and things like that.
And the difficulty of finding an engineer willing to be paid in equity only, in a market where they can get both equity AND a good salary, is nothing special to France believe me.
And the difficulty of finding an engineer willing to be paid in equity only, in a market where they can get both equity AND a good salary, is nothing special to France believe me.
Il y a plus de 200 écoles qui sont des grandes écoles, donc ça n'a plus vraiment de signification. Si tu devrais le refaire une nouvelle fois, qu'est ce que tu conseillerais, et dans quel pays te serais tu installé?
Interesting
So yesterday I posted this one https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10220487
which spawned more than 300 comments and apparently seems to be something people care about.
My primary claim was that it wasn't as such the typical things like culture, language etc that created the issues but also the way the EU is harmonizing the markets and forcing change through the political system rather than the civil society which is unfriendly to entrepreneurs unless they do very predictable businesses.
But today i have seen several posts all related to Europes issues with startups that is talking about things in this vein.
So yesterday I posted this one https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10220487
which spawned more than 300 comments and apparently seems to be something people care about.
My primary claim was that it wasn't as such the typical things like culture, language etc that created the issues but also the way the EU is harmonizing the markets and forcing change through the political system rather than the civil society which is unfriendly to entrepreneurs unless they do very predictable businesses.
But today i have seen several posts all related to Europes issues with startups that is talking about things in this vein.
As soon as French salaries come ANYWHERE CLOSE to similar salaries in London or the US or even Berlin, then maybe I'd consider it. France just isn't competitive on the salary front, hence the brain drain.
I moved to the UK in 99; At the time I worked for a startup and was getting around 12000FF 'brut' (pre taxes, outside paris (Sophia)). At the time, the GBP was around 10FF (roughtly, in fact, more like 11-12).
When I moved the the UK, my first salary was 44000 GBP/y, so that was bringing me around 2500 GBP a month, /post taxes/ (PAYE).
I could not believe my EYES when I saw my payslip... These 12000FF were the equivalent of around 7000FF (post tax) so by crossing the channel, I multiplied my pay by easily 3.5. And I had a great time at that company, despite my pretty accented english. Of course life was generally more expensive, but /nowhere/ near 3.5 times more expensive.
Of course, income might have levelled up since, but since then, I've had 15 years of working for the best companies in the industry (ie, worldwide names), increased my experience and income, and all of that with minimum red tape. I created my own LTD company with just 240 GBP almost zero bureaucracy; you can pretty much calculate your tax bills in your head too.
I love it. I'd never go back, I'd never had dreamed of the stuff I have achieved here during that time, when I was still living in france.
Of course, there are downsides, it's a lot closer to the US in the fact you need to handle your own pension strategy, healthcare etc, but for people who have a drive and will to do stuff, it's a LOT easier to get things done here.
When I moved the the UK, my first salary was 44000 GBP/y, so that was bringing me around 2500 GBP a month, /post taxes/ (PAYE).
I could not believe my EYES when I saw my payslip... These 12000FF were the equivalent of around 7000FF (post tax) so by crossing the channel, I multiplied my pay by easily 3.5. And I had a great time at that company, despite my pretty accented english. Of course life was generally more expensive, but /nowhere/ near 3.5 times more expensive.
Of course, income might have levelled up since, but since then, I've had 15 years of working for the best companies in the industry (ie, worldwide names), increased my experience and income, and all of that with minimum red tape. I created my own LTD company with just 240 GBP almost zero bureaucracy; you can pretty much calculate your tax bills in your head too.
I love it. I'd never go back, I'd never had dreamed of the stuff I have achieved here during that time, when I was still living in france.
Of course, there are downsides, it's a lot closer to the US in the fact you need to handle your own pension strategy, healthcare etc, but for people who have a drive and will to do stuff, it's a LOT easier to get things done here.
I think we should compare quality of life instead of salary. You'll make 3 times the salary in the US, but:
- no pension for your retirement (you have to save)
- prohibitive health care costs even with insurance
- prohibitive higher education costs, and even for younger kids if you don't go the public school route
- vacation policies up to the employer (can be ok as a software engineer though, but definitely not up to what you'd get in France)
- maternity leaves up to the employer
All in all, sure I have more money than when I was in France, but my quality of life is not significantly better. I can afford more stuff, but that's about it, and I'm not sure it's still true once you have a family.
And in general no safety nets, you have to build your own. You can be fired at will in a lot of states.
My biggest gripes with France are:
- most of the interesting tech jobs are in Paris. I don't like Paris (it's personal, I just hated living in Paris).
- absurd tech consulting companies (ssii, 90% of them exist solely to make up for how hard it is to [hf]ire in France)
- management vs engineering: engineers are under compensated compared to managers, a brilliant engineer has to become a manager at some point to evolve in their careers. Companies like to pretend that they have a management and a tech track, but you're almost always better off taking the management track. This can be somewhat true in some industries in the US, but it's not as prevalent as it is in France.
- no pension for your retirement (you have to save)
- prohibitive health care costs even with insurance
- prohibitive higher education costs, and even for younger kids if you don't go the public school route
- vacation policies up to the employer (can be ok as a software engineer though, but definitely not up to what you'd get in France)
- maternity leaves up to the employer
All in all, sure I have more money than when I was in France, but my quality of life is not significantly better. I can afford more stuff, but that's about it, and I'm not sure it's still true once you have a family.
And in general no safety nets, you have to build your own. You can be fired at will in a lot of states.
My biggest gripes with France are:
- most of the interesting tech jobs are in Paris. I don't like Paris (it's personal, I just hated living in Paris).
- absurd tech consulting companies (ssii, 90% of them exist solely to make up for how hard it is to [hf]ire in France)
- management vs engineering: engineers are under compensated compared to managers, a brilliant engineer has to become a manager at some point to evolve in their careers. Companies like to pretend that they have a management and a tech track, but you're almost always better off taking the management track. This can be somewhat true in some industries in the US, but it's not as prevalent as it is in France.
I'm a French expat in London so I know what you're saying, but look at my post above and consider what comes with the salary in France... you're not comparing apples to apples here.
I'm not the GP but I hear your argument. It's a very compelling one when you have a family or are getting older.
To a twenty-something however, pension & healthcare don't seem like very compelling arguments compared with just being paid 80% more for the same job. The only thing that has kept me in Paris until now is that all my friends live here, but the London salaries attraction is getting stronger every month.
To a twenty-something however, pension & healthcare don't seem like very compelling arguments compared with just being paid 80% more for the same job. The only thing that has kept me in Paris until now is that all my friends live here, but the London salaries attraction is getting stronger every month.
Between the natural grumpiness of french complaining about their country and the casual french bashing, it is hard to get some quality comments here.
It will take one hundred years or another world war to clear out all the crap that France makes businesses and individuals go through to live there and make a living. Hollande's Socialists, while well meaning, are fairly incompetent compared to past governments, and they are the last group on earth capable of shrinking the French state and making the laws simpler. I lived in France for 14 years, through Chirac, Sarkozy and part of Hollande. They all say the same thing, but France is in a vicious circle: unable to drive private sector growth, they have to employ large numbers of people in the public sector, which continuously adds to the burden of laws and regulations and complexity that the private sector faces, slowing growth more. I'm sure that Macron is busy coming up with a new, improved law that adds to the size and complexity of the legal code in order to bring back tech talent. Good luck.
Many people move abroad because the world is a big place and it's a lot of fun to work and live in a remote country. For instance, I worked a few years in the UK, in the US, and I would gladly go to Asia if I had the opportunity. However I couldn't care less about tax, money or bureaucracy (although I"m attached to my short commute time and long vacations).
Besides, I noticed that many (most?) French students from the top engineering schools go to work in the financial industry (abroad but also in France). I often wonder if this should be qualified as brain drain too.
Besides, I noticed that many (most?) French students from the top engineering schools go to work in the financial industry (abroad but also in France). I often wonder if this should be qualified as brain drain too.
Something that I've noticed about South African brain drain is that it's mostly motivated by people simply wanting a system that works for them - at least in tech. If I'm working my ass off on a product that I believe in; I don't want to be, frankly, babysitting the government.
From what I've read France is also in the business of destroying productivity - if they want people back they need to start reconsidering overuse of red tape.
From what I've read France is also in the business of destroying productivity - if they want people back they need to start reconsidering overuse of red tape.
France is lucrative mostly to french native speakers, who have quite a massive phobia when they have to speak any other language rather than their own. It looks ridiculous and shameful, especially when noone cares about speaking it outside french bubble. The language had it's prime time long time ago and now it's a mere curiosity. Not the prettiest nor easiest one to learn either. Then there is amazing countryside, but that's hardly big enough motivation alone to move in or stay.
Some french work really hard, I think their effectiveness at work is above EU average. But they are socialists at their core - meaning all nice social benefits on one side, but massive inefficiency on the other, on all levels of government. In theory, there is no good reason why French should earn much less compared to say Germans. In reality, the difference is HUGE and there are good reasons for it. Market says it all :)
Some french work really hard, I think their effectiveness at work is above EU average. But they are socialists at their core - meaning all nice social benefits on one side, but massive inefficiency on the other, on all levels of government. In theory, there is no good reason why French should earn much less compared to say Germans. In reality, the difference is HUGE and there are good reasons for it. Market says it all :)
I'm getting tired of hearing always the same uninformed comments about the French language and how the French perceive it. We're not very good with English because of the terribly inefficient way it's taught in school, not because of any kind of "phobia". A Frenchman speaks on average 1.8 languages, which is slightly less than Germans (and much less than Swedes and Norwegians), but still more than Spaniards and Britons for example.
And French is not a "mere curiosity". It's the official language of 29 independent countries. It's also the second most employed language in diplomacy, being a working language of countless institutions, and the second most common mother-tongue in the EU. Not to mention that with the growing alphabetization of Africa, and its potential for economic and developmental growth, it could very well know a powerful rebirth in the near future.
It's true that French is not the easiest language to learn though, but if you don't find it very pretty that's your opinion, however it's really subjective.
And French is not a "mere curiosity". It's the official language of 29 independent countries. It's also the second most employed language in diplomacy, being a working language of countless institutions, and the second most common mother-tongue in the EU. Not to mention that with the growing alphabetization of Africa, and its potential for economic and developmental growth, it could very well know a powerful rebirth in the near future.
It's true that French is not the easiest language to learn though, but if you don't find it very pretty that's your opinion, however it's really subjective.
Yeah dude, I live in Geneva for last 5 years, which is probably more full of french people rather than native Swiss. And let me tell you, I see this phobia daily, by people speaking often moderately well english, but having extremely hard time convincing to speak in it, in any possible way. If I go to France, same effect becomes 5x more obvious (of course this is anecdotal measurement). Every single person I've spoken to says same. I mean, every single person. Also those who spent years living/studying in France (Paris, Lyon).
It doesn't matter how crappy your school english was (btw why do I keep hearing this excuse all the time?), in very few places it's stellar (neither was mine at home). We all sound a bit funny. So what? What makes difference between French and rest of the world is that any guy will try to speak English, even broken one, and will try to help anybody speaking it (ie in his own country). With English in France, story is consistently different.
Yeah, just 5 years of daily experience, only only mine and all expats I know (this is always a funny topic to talk about). Who knows, I could get it all wrong :)
It doesn't matter how crappy your school english was (btw why do I keep hearing this excuse all the time?), in very few places it's stellar (neither was mine at home). We all sound a bit funny. So what? What makes difference between French and rest of the world is that any guy will try to speak English, even broken one, and will try to help anybody speaking it (ie in his own country). With English in France, story is consistently different.
Yeah, just 5 years of daily experience, only only mine and all expats I know (this is always a funny topic to talk about). Who knows, I could get it all wrong :)
You should read the introduction of this article about this "mere curiosity".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language
The GP has a "West-centric" view that, in that context, is largely correct. French used to be far more prominent in the West. It used to be the language of diplomacy. It's still the second most spoken language in the EU but it's declining [1]:
"French is the second most widely spoken language in the European Union and the second most widely learned language in the world, but despite its strong international position, the outlook for French in Europe is not so encouraging. Over the last four years, the number of French-speakers in the continent has fallen by 8%."
It has of course been supplanted by English as the lingua franca.
French is still prominent in large parts of Africa but is facing increasing competition from English and Arabic.
The huge number of human languages is a product of a bygone era of isolation. A Darwinian process has ensued that is seeing that number constantly whittled down and outside of truly primitive cultures (there are still people in the world living effectively in the Stone Age) I imagine within 100 years you'll see a smaller number of languages spoken by a larger portion of the global population.
[1]: http://www.euractiv.com/sections/languages-culture/french-la...
"French is the second most widely spoken language in the European Union and the second most widely learned language in the world, but despite its strong international position, the outlook for French in Europe is not so encouraging. Over the last four years, the number of French-speakers in the continent has fallen by 8%."
It has of course been supplanted by English as the lingua franca.
French is still prominent in large parts of Africa but is facing increasing competition from English and Arabic.
The huge number of human languages is a product of a bygone era of isolation. A Darwinian process has ensued that is seeing that number constantly whittled down and outside of truly primitive cultures (there are still people in the world living effectively in the Stone Age) I imagine within 100 years you'll see a smaller number of languages spoken by a larger portion of the global population.
[1]: http://www.euractiv.com/sections/languages-culture/french-la...
290,000,000 speakers (including secondary speakers.) out of 7,000,000 people on the planet.
4% of the planet. If 4% of America spoke a language, most of us wouldn't be in much of a rush to localize.
Fortunately for French, the core native speakers in France are rich, and most of the planet is still poor. As the rest of the planet catches up, "curiosity" becomes more accurate over time.
4% of the planet. If 4% of America spoke a language, most of us wouldn't be in much of a rush to localize.
Fortunately for French, the core native speakers in France are rich, and most of the planet is still poor. As the rest of the planet catches up, "curiosity" becomes more accurate over time.
Secondary speakers are not people who learned French in school and live outside a French speaking country. If you took French in high school in the US you are not recorded in these numbers. Secondary speakers are people like, for example, those who grew up in Morocco, speak French but have Arabic as a mother tongue (for example).
Plus those numbers only account for speakers who can read and write. As I said in another comment, the alphabetization of Africa over the next few decades is expected to boost these numbers significantly.
So, as the rest of the planet catches up, "curiosity" becomes LESS accurate over time.
Plus those numbers only account for speakers who can read and write. As I said in another comment, the alphabetization of Africa over the next few decades is expected to boost these numbers significantly.
So, as the rest of the planet catches up, "curiosity" becomes LESS accurate over time.
So, in HN terms, I think it is a very poor business decision to leave out 1 in 20 clients that are so easily self-selected for segmentation (just by asking them their language). Mostly if you admit that it is a wealthy segment.
By the way, I'm not french, and I find that "curiosity" term insultingly patronizing.
By the way, I'm not french, and I find that "curiosity" term insultingly patronizing.
And it is a dramatic error.
If 4% of people only speak a functional programming language, does it mean that you never need to learn one? Just because the vast majority historically speak imperative doesn't mean it's the best for your business. Same for OSes.
Diversity is source of wealth.
If 4% of people only speak a functional programming language, does it mean that you never need to learn one? Just because the vast majority historically speak imperative doesn't mean it's the best for your business. Same for OSes.
Diversity is source of wealth.
Except that the curve of language distribution is not proportional at all. If you sum up the top 15 languages, you maybe only have like 40% of the population. So a language with 4% speakers is actually really important in regard of the language distribution. Having 290M speakers is actually really rare for a language, most of the languages spoken in the world actually have very few speakers. This makes French (and all the other 15 top languages) disproportionately important with a such skewed distribution.
You may want to read the rest of the introduction !
4% of the planet. If 4% of America spoke a language, most of us wouldn't be in much of a rush to localize.
You're implicitly assuming that the remaining 96% of the population is speaking another language which is untrue in your analogy as the world population speaks more than one language and the largest one in terms of number of speakers goes to Mandarin with around 15% of world population.
You're implicitly assuming that the remaining 96% of the population is speaking another language which is untrue in your analogy as the world population speaks more than one language and the largest one in terms of number of speakers goes to Mandarin with around 15% of world population.
The language has nothing to do with it. Japan has a good economy while speaking in average even worse English than Spain. When the right conditions are there, the business is growing regardless of the spoken language.
What's with the bashing of languages excluding English & countries that are not part of the English speaking world as of late on HN?
It's getting annoying and bordering on obnoxious chauvinistic & ethnocentric rhetoric.
Not the prettiest nor easiest one to learn either.
What makes you think that English is any better?
Actually and this is an objective assessment English is one of the hardest languages to learn at least from orthography and pronunciation standpoints and in contradiction to the prevailing belief of the opposite.
Unlike in Spanish or Italian and to some extent French which enjoy an almost uniform rules regarding pronunciation and orthography, in English you should memorize how individual words are pronounced and written and you can't deduce correctly how a certain new word to be pronounced or written based on the pronunciation because it is not 1:1 translation from official letter sounds to words.
On the other hand, when you encounter a Spanish or Italian word and you know your alphabet and letters and simple rules, you pronounce the word as is no surprises in the process. When you hear a word correctly, you could decipher how it's written even when you encounter it for the first time and the success ratio is around 99%.
Good luck trying this with the English language. Please get off your high horse and don't kid yourself, we foreigners are not learning your language that's English because of its innate "superior" qualities to other world languages. It just happens to be the global lingua franca of this age and we're adopting to this nothing more nothing less.
It's getting annoying and bordering on obnoxious chauvinistic & ethnocentric rhetoric.
Not the prettiest nor easiest one to learn either.
What makes you think that English is any better?
Actually and this is an objective assessment English is one of the hardest languages to learn at least from orthography and pronunciation standpoints and in contradiction to the prevailing belief of the opposite.
Unlike in Spanish or Italian and to some extent French which enjoy an almost uniform rules regarding pronunciation and orthography, in English you should memorize how individual words are pronounced and written and you can't deduce correctly how a certain new word to be pronounced or written based on the pronunciation because it is not 1:1 translation from official letter sounds to words.
On the other hand, when you encounter a Spanish or Italian word and you know your alphabet and letters and simple rules, you pronounce the word as is no surprises in the process. When you hear a word correctly, you could decipher how it's written even when you encounter it for the first time and the success ratio is around 99%.
Good luck trying this with the English language. Please get off your high horse and don't kid yourself, we foreigners are not learning your language that's English because of its innate "superior" qualities to other world languages. It just happens to be the global lingua franca of this age and we're adopting to this nothing more nothing less.
French here. I do believe that English is very easy to learn, because not really error prone. Do you conjugate verbs? No (well, kind of). Do the English nouns have genders? No. It's true that English is not straight forward to pronounce, but that's pretty much the only difficulty of the language.
On the other hand, I would say that French is very error prone: it's like Spanish or Italian (in the sense that you need to know lots of conjugations and the gender of the nouns), and the spelling of the words is very complicated, for example the sound 'o' can be spelled 'o', 'au', 'eau', 'ô'. In fact the spelling is so hard that I am suspecting it has been made hard on purpose so people who are not educated could be spotted straight away when they write a letter.
Please note that I am not writing this out of content ("Look how we French people are smart for mastering such a complicated language"), but because I like the simplicity of the English language. In fact, I believe anything made hard in a language is just some incidental complexity in how we express our thoughts, and if I had to create a language I would use English as a base.
On the other hand, I would say that French is very error prone: it's like Spanish or Italian (in the sense that you need to know lots of conjugations and the gender of the nouns), and the spelling of the words is very complicated, for example the sound 'o' can be spelled 'o', 'au', 'eau', 'ô'. In fact the spelling is so hard that I am suspecting it has been made hard on purpose so people who are not educated could be spotted straight away when they write a letter.
Please note that I am not writing this out of content ("Look how we French people are smart for mastering such a complicated language"), but because I like the simplicity of the English language. In fact, I believe anything made hard in a language is just some incidental complexity in how we express our thoughts, and if I had to create a language I would use English as a base.
> and the spelling of the words is very complicated, for example the sound 'o' can be spelled 'o', 'au', 'eau', 'ô'.
As a native English speaker who has studied Spanish and French (though I've neglected both for far too long to do much with them now), the spelling of French compared to its pronunciation my be less regular than Italian or Spanish (going from pronunciation to spelling can be error-prone for unfamiliar words, but going from spelling to pronunciation usually isn't), but compared to English it is a model of simplicity.
As a native English speaker who has studied Spanish and French (though I've neglected both for far too long to do much with them now), the spelling of French compared to its pronunciation my be less regular than Italian or Spanish (going from pronunciation to spelling can be error-prone for unfamiliar words, but going from spelling to pronunciation usually isn't), but compared to English it is a model of simplicity.
I think French and English spellings are complicated for different reasons: given its pronunciation, the spelling of an English word is generally easy to guess (and I insist on generally: I needed the automatic corrector to tell me that I spelled 'pronunciation' wrongly at first), while in French it will not be straightforward; on the other hand, a French word is easy to pronounce when one sees it in writing, and in English it's not the case (like, the word 'live' can be pronounced in two ways).
Hi S4M,
- Do you conjugate verbs?
Sure you do in English and there are also the irregular verbs problem to crack such as go went gone / read read read (As you know, the past and past participle are pronounced as the word "red" and there's no clear non-ambiguous rule governing this usage you just have to memorize it sucks big time, doesn't it?)
- IMO, gender-based languages make much more sense to me and genderless langs like English are very confusing and suffixing every noun with -o or -a is not really a huge investment to take to avoid this confusion.
- I acknowledged that French is a bit more difficult to master than other Romance languages like Spanish and Italian and it takes much more effort to write or read but it still if you get around the rules in French and get familiar with the sounds, it would be far easier to guess words pronunciation or spelling without looking up a dictionary compared to English.
By the way English still retains some of the influences of the French language as a result of the Norman Invasion of England such as the subjunctive mood where you need to pick the right tense to express doubt in your communication. It's also worth mentioning that some people would argue that the complexity and tediousness in English spelling is attributable to adopting French words into the lexicon but seriously I don't care not my problem.
So, I would disagree with you that English is a simple or an easy to learn language. On the contrary, it's a life long investment and very high maintenance not only for the most complicated parts such as idioms or poetry but for the most basic ones such as reading and writing.
I'd be compelled to add that even Arabic and despite all the negative publicity it gets for being a complicated language which in some aspects it pretty much is, it still has a more streamlined and straightforward process than in English to reading and writing once you get your head around the concept of weak and strong vowels to start reading and writing and there's no need to memorize words one by one to be able to speak properly.
Lastly, the nerve of him calling a Romance language not pretty. I might not favor French over Italian or Portuguese when it comes to the domain of musical sounds but it's definitely way way better than English in that regard.
- Do you conjugate verbs?
Sure you do in English and there are also the irregular verbs problem to crack such as go went gone / read read read (As you know, the past and past participle are pronounced as the word "red" and there's no clear non-ambiguous rule governing this usage you just have to memorize it sucks big time, doesn't it?)
- IMO, gender-based languages make much more sense to me and genderless langs like English are very confusing and suffixing every noun with -o or -a is not really a huge investment to take to avoid this confusion.
- I acknowledged that French is a bit more difficult to master than other Romance languages like Spanish and Italian and it takes much more effort to write or read but it still if you get around the rules in French and get familiar with the sounds, it would be far easier to guess words pronunciation or spelling without looking up a dictionary compared to English.
By the way English still retains some of the influences of the French language as a result of the Norman Invasion of England such as the subjunctive mood where you need to pick the right tense to express doubt in your communication. It's also worth mentioning that some people would argue that the complexity and tediousness in English spelling is attributable to adopting French words into the lexicon but seriously I don't care not my problem.
So, I would disagree with you that English is a simple or an easy to learn language. On the contrary, it's a life long investment and very high maintenance not only for the most complicated parts such as idioms or poetry but for the most basic ones such as reading and writing.
I'd be compelled to add that even Arabic and despite all the negative publicity it gets for being a complicated language which in some aspects it pretty much is, it still has a more streamlined and straightforward process than in English to reading and writing once you get your head around the concept of weak and strong vowels to start reading and writing and there's no need to memorize words one by one to be able to speak properly.
Lastly, the nerve of him calling a Romance language not pretty. I might not favor French over Italian or Portuguese when it comes to the domain of musical sounds but it's definitely way way better than English in that regard.
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They could adopt a consistent EU response to economic migrants, and simply not let them leave.
How would you stop them? I'm imagining all sorts of possibilities, and all of the effective ones require totalitarianism. You'll need a large surveillance network to watch the "at-risk" folks, secret police to infiltrate / interrogate / kill the smuggling networks that will arise, internal passports to track movement, and a nice political structure that will be able to maintain this without pesky things like folks trying to vote for "freedom" and other nonsense like that. Maybe some reeducation camps to correct the misguided ones who try to escape.
Yeah, like the USSR.
The problem is work ethic. I've been to France on business on 2-week stints about a dozen times, and I can tell you from my experience they do not want to work hard -- at anything. 6hr workdays, and at LEAST 1hr for lunch and worst of all they look at you like you are the crazy one for wanting to get more done each day.
I've been living here for 7 years, worked for 3 different companies. I suppose I have a bit more anecdotes than your dozen of times.
There are places are people don't seem to do anything. But it's hardly a France-only occurrence. There are only plenty of companies where you are expected to work hard and deliver results; again, hardly France-only.
I love it when some casual observations from a visitor become trusted source of generalisation for a whole country.
There are places are people don't seem to do anything. But it's hardly a France-only occurrence. There are only plenty of companies where you are expected to work hard and deliver results; again, hardly France-only.
I love it when some casual observations from a visitor become trusted source of generalisation for a whole country.
I guess it depends on where you work, like all countries.
I have the exacts same experience as you working at a NYC insurance company (9 to 5 then go home).
I also know at lot of companies here (in France) where people work their asses off everyday.
I have the exacts same experience as you working at a NYC insurance company (9 to 5 then go home).
I also know at lot of companies here (in France) where people work their asses off everyday.
My current startup has a 9-5 culture, and we get a lot more done than any other startup I've worked for. No ping-pong, no long lunch breaks, no watercooler discussions, much less surfing on company time. I get more done in 8 hours than I used to get done in 12, and I get an extra 4 hours with my family.
I find that ping-pong and watercooler discussions are necessary as breaks. Otherwise you burn out and you only get, say, 4 hours of real work done in an 8-hour day.
Breaks are still necessary, but they're a lot less frequent and a lot shorter.
Fair point, my HQ is in NYC I can attest to the 9 to 5 as well. I think it has more to do with transit scheduling than anything. Then again Paris is extremely expensive to live in the Metro area as well so that may have something to do with my experience as well.
I worked for 3 years in France (Paris and province), and 3 years in the US (NJ and NYC). Things are the same. Humans are the same. It all depends on the company culture.
Having a healthy 1-hour+ lunch is one of the things that French do very, very right. Esp. as they tend to eat in small places with home cooking. I wish we all did this.
On an individual scale, statistics show that French private-sector workers are more productive than Germans and far ahead of the British.
Perhaps six hours is all they need to accomplish the task?
Perhaps six hours is all they need to accomplish the task?
The more difficult it is for the people living in a country to find work, the higher the productivity of the work force. For example, if only people able to obtain degrees from prestigious schools or able to succeed in low-paying internships that last for years because they have family to help them survive are able to get jobs, productivity will be high.
And France is known for make it hard for people to find jobs.
Productivity, in other words, is a measure of the value produced per hour worked.
If instead we look at the most often cited measure of value produced per resident, namely, GDP per capita, France is not doing better than Germany or the UK -- in either "nominal" GDP or GDP "purchasing power parity" according to the most recent World-Bank data.
And France is known for make it hard for people to find jobs.
Productivity, in other words, is a measure of the value produced per hour worked.
If instead we look at the most often cited measure of value produced per resident, namely, GDP per capita, France is not doing better than Germany or the UK -- in either "nominal" GDP or GDP "purchasing power parity" according to the most recent World-Bank data.
Young french here, yes its true mostly for workman and for functionary but there are a lot a people who work a lot (in startup and small buisness), the main problem is that people dont want to change their advantages cause of financial crisis and big worker union doesnt want to discuss about this.
And this is not a single occurrence, I got told that at school they are asking for documents for the kids as well each year, the same thing with information they already have.
On the other hand, doing the taxes was not at all complicated and I got proper help. This probably changed in the last years. It might be that this is a sign of a changing system, but there is still a lot of crust.