Microsoft won't back down from Windows 10 nagware 'trick'(theregister.co.uk)
theregister.co.uk
Microsoft won't back down from Windows 10 nagware 'trick'
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05/26/microsoft_clarifies_upgrade_trick/
204 comments
Same happened to my mom just yesterday. My mom happens to be an anxious 75 year old woman who takes a long time to acclimate to anything new on her computer, and also relies on said computer for several critical areas of her life.
She called me in a panic from 6 timezones away, and I had to drop what I was doing and spend a good half a day walking her through the various transition and setup steps. Every 30 minutes she would plaintively ask me why she had to do this - she was perfectly happy with what she had and had no interest in anything new. Every time she asked and I had no good answer, vague thoughts that included the words "class" and "action" swam through my head.
She called me in a panic from 6 timezones away, and I had to drop what I was doing and spend a good half a day walking her through the various transition and setup steps. Every 30 minutes she would plaintively ask me why she had to do this - she was perfectly happy with what she had and had no interest in anything new. Every time she asked and I had no good answer, vague thoughts that included the words "class" and "action" swam through my head.
How many of the hundreds of millions of people using Windows computers are affected like this that don't have someone tech-savy to ask for help?
There's no possible way Microsoft didn't think of this scenario, which can only mean that they simply do not care.
I am certainly in agreement. From what I can see they used social engineering for a few months, then dark patterned it so users would install. (Im referring to users being slowly trained to close the window saying upgrade, then that same click agreeing and installing).
Which in my opinion is exactly that. Social engineering to get them use to it (same action over and over), and dark pattern (doing something do so they would agree to something they didn't necessarily want to).
Very scummy in my opinion. I wish I could change but I am very much stuck on Windows (my only product uses windows voice recognition engine. . . .I don't have the knowledge to wrote my own).
Edit: typo
Which in my opinion is exactly that. Social engineering to get them use to it (same action over and over), and dark pattern (doing something do so they would agree to something they didn't necessarily want to).
Very scummy in my opinion. I wish I could change but I am very much stuck on Windows (my only product uses windows voice recognition engine. . . .I don't have the knowledge to wrote my own).
Edit: typo
As long as changes and 'upgrades' correlate with net gains for investors and shareholders, it's all good. It's all that matters. We are faced with faceless super-agents, we can't realistically complain to anyone, nobody is responsible. I hope the era of user empowerment comes soon, and this kind of mammoth-sized digital stomping over humans ends.
Oh... They surely care! For the upgrade rate, which historically was always very low.
One advantage to my grandmother still using Windows XP: it won’t auto-upgrade to Windows 10.
Meh. The safest and easiest migration path from XP now is to LXLE (which is Ubuntu Linux) with a similar theme (and the same set of apps); I wouldn't keep anyone on XP any more: if W7 is obsolete, XP is a rotting corpse.
Haha, maybe. That's a bit over the top for me personally, I never liked the Luna theme :)
Well, Microsoft will parade you mum as part of the great success of the adoption rate and popularity of Windows 10!
Rings a bell... Same happened to my mom when Google changed their Gmail UI. For us it seems like a small change but for older people this is really a tough thing. Well, we moved to an email client since then...
I feel your pain, but after migration to linux or mac you'll probably be using SaaS apps to do this. And at in this case you could reinstall.
In the "future" (ie. web apps and android apps), there won't be any control about software upgrades anymore. Even, or perhaps especially when they're really more downgrades than upgrades.
In the "future" (ie. web apps and android apps), there won't be any control about software upgrades anymore. Even, or perhaps especially when they're really more downgrades than upgrades.
Hahaha. Nope, your attempt at FUD fails: after migration to Linux, my first worry is "okay, the network connection sucks, so no cloud dependencies". Cloudcloudcloud may be all the rage right now, but tried-and-true, full-offline software didn't disappear.
This has consequences even in the medical domain!
Recently I sat in the waiting room of a general practitioner (in Germany), where all patients had to wait because their main computer was unusable. That computer started an upgrade to Windows 10 against their will and almost all patients had to wait.
Recently I sat in the waiting room of a general practitioner (in Germany), where all patients had to wait because their main computer was unusable. That computer started an upgrade to Windows 10 against their will and almost all patients had to wait.
My dentist – after having issues with this, and also hearing about the Snowden papers in the news in the past years – told me she was discussing with her IT guy to move to a Linux based system, as she’d just want it to work.
I’m not sure how far Wine has come, or if dentist software for Linux already is a thing, but I’ve heard more and more people discuss these things recently.
Windows 10 might finally be the time for Linux on the Desktop.
I’m not sure how far Wine has come, or if dentist software for Linux already is a thing, but I’ve heard more and more people discuss these things recently.
Windows 10 might finally be the time for Linux on the Desktop.
They weren't running the Windows Server on their server then, which is a pretty reckless thing to do even without going into T&C aspects of it.
Why would you run Windows Server on the receptionists machine?
I think he's trying to say that they didn't have a Windows update server to prevent that kind of thing. The only people dodging this are using a utility, manually deleting updates, or are running Enterprise.
It's pretty hard to buy enterprise. I could easily see many small companies going with Pro instead and getting unwanted upgrades to Windows 10.
Unless I've been smoking something the comment I replied to originally said "main server."
It's not just MS pushing new stuff on people without much warning. A similar thing happened to my mom with the iOS 6 => 7 update that overhauled the UI. People (understandably) freak when you move their cheese. Apple seems to have gotten more of a pass for it than Microsoft is here though.
If you read the actual dialog box, it reads fine. Really. It's not a trick. The big change is Windows 10 being classified as a "recommended" update. Turn off recommended updates (only take "critical" updates) if you don't want Microsoft changing functionality on your computer. It has been like that for a long time. This is a very extreme example of it though and MS knows that--that's why the box exists, I think--they don't "warn" you about other upcoming recommended updates. Yes, they could do more on that box to guide you towards cancelling the upgrade, but if they mean what they say that the update is "recommended," your dialogs should be guiding people towards getting it rather than away from it.
Again, the bigger thing to question here is the choice to make it "recommended," not the dialog box.
If you read the actual dialog box, it reads fine. Really. It's not a trick. The big change is Windows 10 being classified as a "recommended" update. Turn off recommended updates (only take "critical" updates) if you don't want Microsoft changing functionality on your computer. It has been like that for a long time. This is a very extreme example of it though and MS knows that--that's why the box exists, I think--they don't "warn" you about other upcoming recommended updates. Yes, they could do more on that box to guide you towards cancelling the upgrade, but if they mean what they say that the update is "recommended," your dialogs should be guiding people towards getting it rather than away from it.
Again, the bigger thing to question here is the choice to make it "recommended," not the dialog box.
An as yet undetermined critical update just rechecked "recommended" for me yesterday when I specifically unchecked it before manually updating a fresh 7 install. Once the 1st round of 170 updates finished w/ a couple fails, I unintentionally/fortuitously clicked settings and saw the box checked. *This was updates before 3/27/2015, btw, I now need to vet the remaining ~170 of the 40 known/unwanted Win 10 malgrades.
Thanks for the warning. I'm not sure if they're being sleazy or just unthoughtful and incompetent.
I already lost an afternoon with family, which I don't get to see that often, because I was forced to fix things that went wrong on their devices after the unexpected update.
I had told them to "Just click the red x for now,if a message about Windows 10 pops up".
My brother's laptop (Dell Ispiron 15z) was upgraded to Windows 10 without his consent. After booting into Windows 10 wireless networking was non-functional. Dell themselves were fantastically passive-aggressive (and simultaneously useless, but at least I expected the latter):
"Dell is not testing or developing Windows 10 drivers for this product. If you choose to upgrade, some features, applications, and connected devices may not work as expected."
The laptop is only three years old! If I were him I would have returned it for a refund, but he doesn't have the time to migrate to another laptop right now so we eventually gave up, downgraded to Windows 7 and now he has to operate his laptop defensively, with Microsoft and their relentless upgrade treadmill as his adversary.
His next laptop will be a Mac.
"Dell is not testing or developing Windows 10 drivers for this product. If you choose to upgrade, some features, applications, and connected devices may not work as expected."
The laptop is only three years old! If I were him I would have returned it for a refund, but he doesn't have the time to migrate to another laptop right now so we eventually gave up, downgraded to Windows 7 and now he has to operate his laptop defensively, with Microsoft and their relentless upgrade treadmill as his adversary.
His next laptop will be a Mac.
There is always the option of Linux.
Better still, there's dual boot; and with virtualization, you could even run both at the same time :)
Had that setup for a while: Win7 as the host - had some proprietary sw there that wouldn't run in a VM - and Kubuntu with the usual office apps on a separate partition, where I could either physically boot into it, or run it as a VM. Since it didn't share any partition with Windows (data was shared via VBox Shared Folders), all was OK.
(Tried the other way around, but Windows - and the programs I was using - were really picky about HW changes and paravirtualization; didn't work so well.)
Had that setup for a while: Win7 as the host - had some proprietary sw there that wouldn't run in a VM - and Kubuntu with the usual office apps on a separate partition, where I could either physically boot into it, or run it as a VM. Since it didn't share any partition with Windows (data was shared via VBox Shared Folders), all was OK.
(Tried the other way around, but Windows - and the programs I was using - were really picky about HW changes and paravirtualization; didn't work so well.)
Install Linux Mint on it and you'll never get another phone call about using the computer again
I wanted to write the same line. Mint looks, feels and works as a good windows XP, but with up to date security and drivers, and is perfect for anyone who's using their computer for generic activities, eg. browsing, watching movies, etc.
Add a Google Chrome and you have Netflix & the rest, Skype works out of the box on Mint, and it has an 'app store' - also known as package manager for a decade in linux terms -, so there really is nothing missing from Mint for generic scenarios.
( No, you really don't need full back-and-forth MS Office compatibility in generic life and Libreoffice is doing a good job on compatibility. You also don't need Photoshop for generic, everyday users; there is Digikam, Gimp and Inkscape and countless others for the non-professionals, all of them are more than enough for someone who's not making a living of this. )
Add a Google Chrome and you have Netflix & the rest, Skype works out of the box on Mint, and it has an 'app store' - also known as package manager for a decade in linux terms -, so there really is nothing missing from Mint for generic scenarios.
( No, you really don't need full back-and-forth MS Office compatibility in generic life and Libreoffice is doing a good job on compatibility. You also don't need Photoshop for generic, everyday users; there is Digikam, Gimp and Inkscape and countless others for the non-professionals, all of them are more than enough for someone who's not making a living of this. )
Until the next LTS dist upgrade?
Linux doesn't solve the dist upgrade situation any better than Windows here: there's still a lot of cheese that moves around between dist upgrades. Sure, if you stick to LTS dist upgrades you restrict the amount of change to roughly once every two years, and if you use a particularly conservative distribution like Mint you can count on, for now, a fairly decent track record of trying to stay in a "Perpetual 90s" of GUI choices.
But even with Mint there are lots of little differences between dist upgrades, and especially if you stray conservative and only do LTS dist upgrades then your relatives also don't benefit from the slow gradual updates and are forced into the changes more jarringly.
(And yes, Windows 7 to Windows 10 is an LTS dist upgrade.)
Linux doesn't solve the dist upgrade situation any better than Windows here: there's still a lot of cheese that moves around between dist upgrades. Sure, if you stick to LTS dist upgrades you restrict the amount of change to roughly once every two years, and if you use a particularly conservative distribution like Mint you can count on, for now, a fairly decent track record of trying to stay in a "Perpetual 90s" of GUI choices.
But even with Mint there are lots of little differences between dist upgrades, and especially if you stray conservative and only do LTS dist upgrades then your relatives also don't benefit from the slow gradual updates and are forced into the changes more jarringly.
(And yes, Windows 7 to Windows 10 is an LTS dist upgrade.)
Yes. Until the next upgrade: which happens with me at the console, at a time which I choose (which includes "oh look, at least I made a complete image before starting an upgrade"), not at the whim of some abstract schmuck trying to fill his KPI quota of systems upgraded.
(And TBH, I think it does solve it better: went from 10.04 to 12.04 to 14.04 to 16.04, and still running well; the upgrades were polite, didn't interfere with normal system use except for one restart each for new kernel, and most importantly didn't break the system. Maybe I was exceptionally lucky, but I dare you to do this from Vista to 7 to 8 to 8.1 to 10)
(And TBH, I think it does solve it better: went from 10.04 to 12.04 to 14.04 to 16.04, and still running well; the upgrades were polite, didn't interfere with normal system use except for one restart each for new kernel, and most importantly didn't break the system. Maybe I was exceptionally lucky, but I dare you to do this from Vista to 7 to 8 to 8.1 to 10)
Too bad Mint is done by cowboys.
http://www.techrepublic.com/article/why-the-linux-mint-hack-...
http://www.techrepublic.com/article/why-the-linux-mint-hack-...
Yeah until the users ISP drops them because of the kaiten sending outgoing DDoS.
Or for being a part of any other botnet. Oh wait, it's you: all those Windows zombies are nonexistent, because "shouldn't happen = doesn't happen, Windows is secure, Linux suxx0rz, Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia".
This is so strange. It's like the OS team is in another universe. The rest of the company is nailing it.
You mean the phone team killing nokia, the legal team suying linux based companies or the Web team wanting to create a gigantic censorship database or the game team creating a console always online with an always on microphone, effectively creating the biggest spyware of all time ?
But the PR team nails it, I agree, because despite everything microsoft does, people keep forgetting.
But the PR team nails it, I agree, because despite everything microsoft does, people keep forgetting.
I've been working with .NET, Xamarin, and Azure for a while. Those Microsoft products really are a pleasure, I have very little to complain about. Shame that it's only these 3 MS products that justify that statement.
I must say .net is a bit of an exception in this sad sight of microsoft's decay. Pretty much everything they have done in the past 3 years in the .net space makes sense and is nice to Microsoft's customers (open sourcing .net, finally delivering on platform-independence, visual studio community being pretty much a complete and fully functional IDE, buying and making xamarin free, etc).
For the other divisions. Windows has become an absolute shit show. Every time I go on the Azure portal I get lost. My xbox one is blowing like a leaf blower. They stopped developing Office 15 years ago (ah no, they changed the color from blue to green) and my surface pro is reminding me of my Windows 98 BSOD days.
Ha not, their mouses are still pretty decent.
For the other divisions. Windows has become an absolute shit show. Every time I go on the Azure portal I get lost. My xbox one is blowing like a leaf blower. They stopped developing Office 15 years ago (ah no, they changed the color from blue to green) and my surface pro is reminding me of my Windows 98 BSOD days.
Ha not, their mouses are still pretty decent.
If they start annoying the developers they are lost. So they don't do stupid things there. But it looks like they never cared or plain stopped caring for the end users.
What they want is to go to developers and say "Look, we have millions of users, cross platform(PC/Phone/XBOX), and great developer tools. All you need is to develop for Windows 10 and forget those other platforms". And they think they can just force 1 & 2 which may actually be true...
Personally I had a horrible experience with Azure. It seems they spent too much time on the UI and too little time on making it usable to understand billing. I was amazed billing could be worse from Amazon.
I used their IaaS which was a pain to setup and constantly rebooted but maybe that's just because of Windows which is pretty problematic to begin with...
I used their IaaS which was a pain to setup and constantly rebooted but maybe that's just because of Windows which is pretty problematic to begin with...
Xamarin is hardly a MS product, and they shut down RoboVM pretty much immediately after purchasing Xamarin.
I've never thought much or Microsoft's PR or marketing. Not to the public at least. There's no coherent brand unlike Apple and Google and they still can't shake the haters and this is just another reason to hate.
To enterprise and devs the likes of Scott Hanselman do a brilliant job but they seem to be fighting against MS's bad tendencies.
To enterprise and devs the likes of Scott Hanselman do a brilliant job but they seem to be fighting against MS's bad tendencies.
MCP=Microsoft Certified Peddler
Marketing is what they are, and always have been, best at. They still overwhelmingly dominate despite the worst efforts of the last 2 CEOs.
Reminds of the days when "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM".
Marketing is what they are, and always have been, best at. They still overwhelmingly dominate despite the worst efforts of the last 2 CEOs.
Reminds of the days when "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM".
[deleted]
Nailing their own coffin, I agree
It's like the OS team is in another universe
I'm sure it's not the entire team, engineers usually aren't sociopathic assholes.
No, this is undoubtedly marketing or management. Maybe even top management. Maybe Nadella?
I'm sure it's not the entire team, engineers usually aren't sociopathic assholes.
No, this is undoubtedly marketing or management. Maybe even top management. Maybe Nadella?
Windows Nein upgrade is malware, IMNSHO.
- Uses intentionally confusing UI to trick users into installing ("upgrade now or upgrade later?" - note the absence of "do not upgrade")
- IMSHNO installs without user consent (closing a "upgrade now?" window counts as "no" anywhere, including MSFT UX Guidelines, hello there hypocrisy)
- breaks existing applications (not every box is just Firefox+LibreOffice: specialized apps and drivers do not work well in WinX)
- while the downgrade ("better to worse" is never an upgrade) runs, you can't use your device ("preparing for blahblah, wait.")
- erases (or at best hides) user data ("yeah well we just put it all in this completely different folder without notice, it's not like you need your documents, right?")
- is very difficult to revert
- phones home (again, MS claims there is user consent. So do all the malware writers; I don't think so.)
Each and every of these are traits commonly associated with malware; thank God for GWX Control Panel.
(To be fair, pre-installed Windows 10 is usable, better than Vista even - but breaking working installs of W7 for no obvious reason is a big no-no)
- Uses intentionally confusing UI to trick users into installing ("upgrade now or upgrade later?" - note the absence of "do not upgrade")
- IMSHNO installs without user consent (closing a "upgrade now?" window counts as "no" anywhere, including MSFT UX Guidelines, hello there hypocrisy)
- breaks existing applications (not every box is just Firefox+LibreOffice: specialized apps and drivers do not work well in WinX)
- while the downgrade ("better to worse" is never an upgrade) runs, you can't use your device ("preparing for blahblah, wait.")
- erases (or at best hides) user data ("yeah well we just put it all in this completely different folder without notice, it's not like you need your documents, right?")
- is very difficult to revert
- phones home (again, MS claims there is user consent. So do all the malware writers; I don't think so.)
Each and every of these are traits commonly associated with malware; thank God for GWX Control Panel.
(To be fair, pre-installed Windows 10 is usable, better than Vista even - but breaking working installs of W7 for no obvious reason is a big no-no)
More than that, what it installs fits any classical description of malware. Windows 10 comes with an OS wide key logger, that logs what you write in any application, and sends it to Microsoft.
(This usually evokes disbelief. If you think I'm wrong, please consider what you would do if it turned out I was right. Then, if you're on Windows 10, lookup your "speech, inking & typing" settings. This is where they ask permission to do this. It is turned on by default.)
(This usually evokes disbelief. If you think I'm wrong, please consider what you would do if it turned out I was right. Then, if you're on Windows 10, lookup your "speech, inking & typing" settings. This is where they ask permission to do this. It is turned on by default.)
No joke:
"We also collect your typed and handwritten words to improve character recognition and provide you with a personalized user dictionary and text completion suggestions."
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/speech-inking-...
"We also collect your typed and handwritten words to improve character recognition and provide you with a personalized user dictionary and text completion suggestions."
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/speech-inking-...
Doesn't every phone do this to make the swipe style keyboard work and autocorrect?
Yes, they do. Maybe not sending it to some server though.
Maybe not sending it to some server though
Those 8 words change are what we're talking about. A keyboard app obviously needs to use your data to improve auto-correct.
When it starts sending that data off-device, however, that's a whole different ballgame.
Those 8 words change are what we're talking about. A keyboard app obviously needs to use your data to improve auto-correct.
When it starts sending that data off-device, however, that's a whole different ballgame.
> A keyboard app obviously needs to use your data to improve auto-correct.
No, that's not obvious, in fact that would be the opposite of what a keyboard's auto-correct should do. Because the whole point of having auto-correct is for the keyboard to correct my mistakes, not learn from them or from the mistakes of other people that also don't know how to spell.
For this reason for example Swype on iOS has been basically unusable for me, because it makes more mistakes than I do. And no matter the implementation, now every time I choose to override the auto-correct decision for a certain word, I always end up pausing because I fear that from then on, the word will be added so some personal dictionary that I don't want. Basically learning from what the individual types is a disservice to the individual.
Also, on iOS custom keywords need explicit permission for accessing the Internet. And on Android I found no mention anywhere that Google's Keyboard sends telemetry to its parent. People just assume that for some reason.
No, that's not obvious, in fact that would be the opposite of what a keyboard's auto-correct should do. Because the whole point of having auto-correct is for the keyboard to correct my mistakes, not learn from them or from the mistakes of other people that also don't know how to spell.
For this reason for example Swype on iOS has been basically unusable for me, because it makes more mistakes than I do. And no matter the implementation, now every time I choose to override the auto-correct decision for a certain word, I always end up pausing because I fear that from then on, the word will be added so some personal dictionary that I don't want. Basically learning from what the individual types is a disservice to the individual.
Also, on iOS custom keywords need explicit permission for accessing the Internet. And on Android I found no mention anywhere that Google's Keyboard sends telemetry to its parent. People just assume that for some reason.
The point of auto-correct is to fix it when you fat-finger something, not when your belief of how to spell something is "wrong". There's a reason auto-correct isn't a thing on desktops.
[deleted]
They need the data to know whether you meant eg "from" or "form", which they get from context by looking at hundreds of millions of occurrences.
They might "obviously need" this data if they want to synchronise the improvements along all your computers and devices.
Or to make the general dictionary pick up on new terms automatically and give them to other windows users.
Edit: The full quote is actually:
> We also collect your typed and handwritten words to improve character recognition and provide you with a personalized user dictionary and text completion suggestions. Some of this data is stored on your device and some is sent to Microsoft to help improve these services. You can turn the Send Microsoft info about how I write setting on or off in Settings.
Which means they don't send EVERYTHING so it's not really a keylogger (unless you also count the keyboard-helping stuff keyloggers?).
Furthermore on that link, it seems to me that the data they would be sending to their servers is the ones about the other services like speech/handwriting to feed into their system to machine-learn recognition.
And it is all turn-off'able which is a plus.
It seems like most people will assume the worst, I am not saying you're wrong but it doesn't seem like some "malware" thing like other people are saying..
Or to make the general dictionary pick up on new terms automatically and give them to other windows users.
Edit: The full quote is actually:
> We also collect your typed and handwritten words to improve character recognition and provide you with a personalized user dictionary and text completion suggestions. Some of this data is stored on your device and some is sent to Microsoft to help improve these services. You can turn the Send Microsoft info about how I write setting on or off in Settings.
Which means they don't send EVERYTHING so it's not really a keylogger (unless you also count the keyboard-helping stuff keyloggers?).
Furthermore on that link, it seems to me that the data they would be sending to their servers is the ones about the other services like speech/handwriting to feed into their system to machine-learn recognition.
And it is all turn-off'able which is a plus.
It seems like most people will assume the worst, I am not saying you're wrong but it doesn't seem like some "malware" thing like other people are saying..
>> some is sent to Microsoft
> Which means they don't send EVERYTHING
In any mathematical or logical context, "some" can be a proper subset of "all" or equal to "all". Any lawyer or judge thinking logically would agree. If the matter had to be confronted in court, Microsoft's legalese covers the case where they capture and store everything.
Another way they can hedge is by not capturing something innocuous and uninteresting, like words you type into Microsoft Help or Group Policy Editor. Now they can say that they don't capture and store every single thing.
> Which means they don't send EVERYTHING
In any mathematical or logical context, "some" can be a proper subset of "all" or equal to "all". Any lawyer or judge thinking logically would agree. If the matter had to be confronted in court, Microsoft's legalese covers the case where they capture and store everything.
Another way they can hedge is by not capturing something innocuous and uninteresting, like words you type into Microsoft Help or Group Policy Editor. Now they can say that they don't capture and store every single thing.
Aaaand tends to turn itself back on. "Accidentally." Oops.
(Also, my "malware" comment was about the forced upgrade to WinX, not about WinX itself, as I have even noted in the last sentence.)
(Also, my "malware" comment was about the forced upgrade to WinX, not about WinX itself, as I have even noted in the last sentence.)
While it's the same problem on phones and you can disable stuff there, it's less of an issue because creation (media, software) happens on a PC and that's a lot more critical. Also, on phones Apple or Google doesn't sneak in an update which re-enables the previously disabled data collection settings. Microsoft went so far to rename NT services to thwart disabling. If Microsoft doesn't fix this soon, they'll either get a lawsuit or lose serious market share.
It's a pity because the kernel and surrounding subsystems are getting better with each Windows release.
Maybe something like nLite can be used to create a Windows image that doesn't contain the nasty stuff, but then an update would reinstall them
The icing on the cake is that even when using Windows Enterprise edition in a Windows Domain, you cannot control what updates are installed as you could before. This is a huge problem because stuff you don't want will be slipped back in.
They just lost their mind.
It's a pity because the kernel and surrounding subsystems are getting better with each Windows release.
Maybe something like nLite can be used to create a Windows image that doesn't contain the nasty stuff, but then an update would reinstall them
The icing on the cake is that even when using Windows Enterprise edition in a Windows Domain, you cannot control what updates are installed as you could before. This is a huge problem because stuff you don't want will be slipped back in.
They just lost their mind.
And that’s why you use the AOSP keyboard, not the Google spyware keyboard.
I wonder how does this hold against intellectual property rights... Can they own all the software I may produce on their OS?
It sure seems like they can have an easy access to the source code..
It sure seems like they can have an easy access to the source code..
I'm sure the TOS has you relieve them of liability and hold them harmless for any use they may make of the software that you wrote.
>More than that, what it installs fits any classical description of malware. Windows 10 comes with an OS wide key logger, that logs what you write in any application, and sends it to Microsoft.
I've yet to see any actual technical evidence of this. Quoting their very unspecific legal documents is hardly evidence of anything.
I've yet to see any actual technical evidence of this. Quoting their very unspecific legal documents is hardly evidence of anything.
Go to "speech, inking & typing" settings. The dialog literally says they will collect your typing history.
The traffic is encrypted, and no one has been able to MITM it yet, as far as I know. But Microsoft has confirmed in the press that yes, they do this.
The traffic is encrypted, and no one has been able to MITM it yet, as far as I know. But Microsoft has confirmed in the press that yes, they do this.
>Go to "speech, inking & typing" settings. The dialog literally says they will collect your typing history.
And until someone bothers to do a MITM we really don't know what that means.
>The traffic is encrypted, and no one has been able to MITM it yet, as far as I know. But Microsoft has confirmed in the press that yes, they do this.
Are you sure? Unless they're specifically trying to prevent such you should be able to just drop in your own root certificate and MITM it with the tool of your choice.
And until someone bothers to do a MITM we really don't know what that means.
>The traffic is encrypted, and no one has been able to MITM it yet, as far as I know. But Microsoft has confirmed in the press that yes, they do this.
Are you sure? Unless they're specifically trying to prevent such you should be able to just drop in your own root certificate and MITM it with the tool of your choice.
One would hope they got their crypto right (I'd assume it's done via ssl with a pinned cert, but I haven't checked). More worrisome is what they do at their data centers - officially they might paint one picture of how well they have secured their system both technologically from outsiders and from employee insiders but behind this pretty picture could be a total shitshow behind the scenes and we wouldn't know. A rogue employee could socially engineer his way to data and dump it on the internet - similar to what happened to OkCupid. They could be infiltrated by Chinese with their infinite budgets and then you take a "voluntary" trip to China. They could be forced by USG to reveal data, and I'm all for nabbing terrorists, but USG has proven that they aren't any better at securing their stuff so China scenario again applies. Or Microsoft is after a few years pushed into corner even more and become really evil and start monetizing data to everyone with a dollar and it turns out they consulted lawyers to arrive at minimal method of data anonymization that would still be accepted by courts.
In the end, it's customers who have bought their computers and should retain ultimate agency over their hardware and what Microsoft is doing isn't necessarily in their customers' best interest because it puts undue, poorly communicated risks on them. Most users aren't equipped with necessary background knowledge to evaluate these risks so aren't even capable of consciously accepting them.
edit: oh it's you ryan. I'm sure you already know all this. :)
In the end, it's customers who have bought their computers and should retain ultimate agency over their hardware and what Microsoft is doing isn't necessarily in their customers' best interest because it puts undue, poorly communicated risks on them. Most users aren't equipped with necessary background knowledge to evaluate these risks so aren't even capable of consciously accepting them.
edit: oh it's you ryan. I'm sure you already know all this. :)
[deleted]
I generally agree, but I wouldn't necessarily call Win10 a downgrade - it's definitely better than 8 (I would think twice about upgrading 7 as having Win7 means that you likely have a pretty old hardware).
I honestly don't understand what's going on. This looks like one of the most idiotic thing an IT company has ever done, and Microsoft doesn't care. They don't even try to explain it. And they fucked up big time - rarely any kind of scandal from the computing world reaches the general public, but this one did. I've been asked by random people for advice on whether or not to upgrade; people seem to know Win10 is "evil" and are annoyed by nagging.
I honestly don't understand what's going on. This looks like one of the most idiotic thing an IT company has ever done, and Microsoft doesn't care. They don't even try to explain it. And they fucked up big time - rarely any kind of scandal from the computing world reaches the general public, but this one did. I've been asked by random people for advice on whether or not to upgrade; people seem to know Win10 is "evil" and are annoyed by nagging.
Better than 8? Maybe.
Worse than 7 on the same hardware? Absolutely, emphatically, YES. I.e. downgrade, QED.
"Win7 means you have pretty old hardware" - well, let me see here. I'm typing this on a top-of-the-line 2016 ultrabook, with Windows 7. Exactly because this is a work tool (like "for people to do some productive work on"), enterprise tends to prefer boooooring older OS over colorful cloudcloudcloud spyware.
IMNSHO, this is just a bunch of schmucks with KPIs based on new WinX installs. "Screw the userbase over? No problem, as long as we meet our bonus targets." This feels just like the old Evil Empire, IE6-style. Kudos to the Windows team for single-handedly wiping out all the goodwill the "new and improved MS" has been trying to build up for the past few years: nah, underneath it's still the same MS we used to know, just with a new paint job.
Worse than 7 on the same hardware? Absolutely, emphatically, YES. I.e. downgrade, QED.
"Win7 means you have pretty old hardware" - well, let me see here. I'm typing this on a top-of-the-line 2016 ultrabook, with Windows 7. Exactly because this is a work tool (like "for people to do some productive work on"), enterprise tends to prefer boooooring older OS over colorful cloudcloudcloud spyware.
IMNSHO, this is just a bunch of schmucks with KPIs based on new WinX installs. "Screw the userbase over? No problem, as long as we meet our bonus targets." This feels just like the old Evil Empire, IE6-style. Kudos to the Windows team for single-handedly wiping out all the goodwill the "new and improved MS" has been trying to build up for the past few years: nah, underneath it's still the same MS we used to know, just with a new paint job.
> This feels just like the old Evil Empire, IE6-style. Kudos to the Windows team for single-handedly wiping out all the goodwill the "new and improved MS" has been trying to build up for the past few years
That I agree with, and it's mind-boggling why they're doing this. As you said, it basically wiped out all the goodwill MS was building over the last few years.
That I agree with, and it's mind-boggling why they're doing this. As you said, it basically wiped out all the goodwill MS was building over the last few years.
I don't think it's the same "evil" Microsoft at work here - they got burned really badly by WinXP's "never upgrade" long tail (and the fact that people tended to just disable or infinitely defer Windows updates, so you also had a huge base of machines with targets painted on them), and are swinging the pendulum HARD the other way to do everything in their power to prevent that.
It's probably not going to work out for them, given the number of issues people still seem to have about 10 even after using it for extended intervals, but I think it's fear of another XP, not malice or anti-competitive practice, that's driving this.
It's probably not going to work out for them, given the number of issues people still seem to have about 10 even after using it for extended intervals, but I think it's fear of another XP, not malice or anti-competitive practice, that's driving this.
> they got burned really badly by WinXP's "never upgrade" long tail (and the fact that people tended to just disable or infinitely defer Windows updates
Well, there's a reason for that. Software seems to change way too fast and it breaks the most basic expectations people have (which I think are very good) - that if a piece of software works, it should continue to work. If I buy a machine that has Windows and Microsoft Word on it, I should expect the OS to boot up and Word to open the documents I made with it for as long as the hardware itself doesn't deteriorate. My programs shouldn't suddenly stop working because they don't feel like it. My OS shouldn't suddenly update to a different looking one because "fuck you, that's what you want anyway". And they definitely should not do any of that in the middle of you working.
I am one of those who often disable / delay auto-updates. Because of the times I had my computer reboot when I stepped out to get a tea. Because of the times I auto-updates for apps burned significant chunks of my transfer when I was using a mobile connection.
Well, there's a reason for that. Software seems to change way too fast and it breaks the most basic expectations people have (which I think are very good) - that if a piece of software works, it should continue to work. If I buy a machine that has Windows and Microsoft Word on it, I should expect the OS to boot up and Word to open the documents I made with it for as long as the hardware itself doesn't deteriorate. My programs shouldn't suddenly stop working because they don't feel like it. My OS shouldn't suddenly update to a different looking one because "fuck you, that's what you want anyway". And they definitely should not do any of that in the middle of you working.
I am one of those who often disable / delay auto-updates. Because of the times I had my computer reboot when I stepped out to get a tea. Because of the times I auto-updates for apps burned significant chunks of my transfer when I was using a mobile connection.
Particularly with Windows 10 (maybe 8?), Windows will try to guess when your (desktop/laptop) computer is unused based on knowledge of when you've been actively using it, and default to that as an update install time.
But more generally, it's a balancing act - for everyone who is running in an environment where they have everything locked out and they just want an application to keep running, there's also plenty of people who leave their machines running public services connected to the Internet with no firewall, antivirus, or anything of that nature, and refuse to install updates because it interrupts the service.
I think Microsoft decided they'd rather be shit on by consumers for forcing automatic updates than be shit on by everyone for a poor security record ever again.
But more generally, it's a balancing act - for everyone who is running in an environment where they have everything locked out and they just want an application to keep running, there's also plenty of people who leave their machines running public services connected to the Internet with no firewall, antivirus, or anything of that nature, and refuse to install updates because it interrupts the service.
I think Microsoft decided they'd rather be shit on by consumers for forcing automatic updates than be shit on by everyone for a poor security record ever again.
Which sounds all reasonable; great even. But then MS adds the secret ingredient, which completely breaks it: mandatory autorestart that can't be switched off without also breaking the autoupdate (or at least, I have yet to see a way to do that in WinX). "Oh hey, while you were out to a meeting/lunch/sleep, we decided that nothing you had open was of any value, and threw it away. Shouldn't have been using that software if it didn't provide autobackups, eh?" (Even with software that does have automatic backups to guard against unreliable machines (sic!), it's an emergency measure, not something I should want to use)
Is it the same no-evil care for customer who pushes them to serve ads in the OS? I am sure they only serve ads "to improve the customer's experience"...
No, AFAICS that part is some combination of trying to mitigate the total cost of {free OS, no-upgrade cost}, and wanting some of the fun information companies like Google get from their more invasive telemetry.
I understand but that makes Windows 10 pretty toxic. I think people would be less bothered (or less people would be bothered) if they were upgrading their users to an awesome OS. In my opinion they are upgrading their users to a piece of shit OS designed to monetize their users. That to me is an "evil" behavior.
Well, technically Win10 looks better and is more awesome than Win8 (which I'd call a half-assed UI that got stuck in the middle of thinking "I'm on a PC" and "I'm on a phone". But otherwise, your point stands. Especially compared to Win7, the gains for users are not obvious.
I agree that it makes Windows 10 highly toxic and unlikely to be touched, and that it's a horrific behavior.
I just think it came about as a result of a number of rational and ethically ~neutral decisions, rather than the level of deliberate malice and anticompetitive practice the Microsoft of the 90s had.
I just think it came about as a result of a number of rational and ethically ~neutral decisions, rather than the level of deliberate malice and anticompetitive practice the Microsoft of the 90s had.
Who cares for the motivation (outside of MS)? End result is identical.
Understanding the motivation and decisions that led to an end result allows you to better gauge whether they're likely to, say, change their stance on a topic, or other decisions they're likely to make going forward.
For example, I submit that it is extraordinarily unlikely that Microsoft will actually end the Win10 upgrade program on July 29th, because their primary goal is to migrate as many people away from their aging older platforms as possible, onto a platform they can find ways to monetize into infinite incremental upgrades.
For example, I submit that it is extraordinarily unlikely that Microsoft will actually end the Win10 upgrade program on July 29th, because their primary goal is to migrate as many people away from their aging older platforms as possible, onto a platform they can find ways to monetize into infinite incremental upgrades.
In other words, whether they're doing it to be Eeeeevil (unlikely), or for profit (probable), the result is still the same: "YOU WILL SUBMIT TO WIN10, YOUR LORD AND MASTER"
Free, yeah right. I'm pretty sure that I have paid the Windows Tax on every (non-server) computer that I ever bought.
And wait for the next shoe to drop. MS is going to want to get paid for this "service"(ads & metrics aren't enough, MORE is always the goal). Despite the cheers of the marketeers, this SaaS is not perpetually "free". Thw more people trapped, the more that will subscribe when the extortion...er...subscription comes due.
Better than 8? Possibly, except that Windows update in Win10 is out of control - nagging, forcing reboots, quietly resetting itself to more liberal settings if you ever try to restrict it, and pegging your CPU the second you go idle for more than 15 seconds. I need a Windows VM for Visual Studio and have both a Win8 and a Win10 one sitting around. While the Win8 one does look silly compared to Win10, it also manages not to antagonize me on a regular basis.
Win 7 became available starting at late 2009 and was popular well after 8 came out, I would suspect most computers that sold with it preinstalled would have no problem running 10.
Does 10 even have higher system requirements than 7?
Does 10 even have higher system requirements than 7?
I don't know about the requirements; I did upgrade from 7 to 8 (while also replacing a hard drive) and then to 10 (because I wanted Bash for Windows). It works very well, but my computer is a desktop, and I did pay a bit for it back then. Meanwhile, a lot of computers had Win7 preinstalled, and I wouldn't call most of them powerful. Hence the caution - OEMs don't give a shit, they'll happily sell a laptop that can barely lift its own OS[0][1], so if you upgrade that kind of equipment you risk basically bricking it.
[0] - Just recently I've been "fixing" such one laptop for a friend of my mother - it was barely strong enough to lift its own Windows installation. I made it much more useful by just replacing the RAM die with a one I pried off a broken laptop that serves as an "organ donor". Hell, I found getting moar RAM to be a quick solution for most of the lower-end laptops that get "too slow".
[1] - this happens for mobile too (as I experienced first-hand), so my rule of thumb is that in terms of computers and smartphones, buying cheap is worse than not buying at all
[0] - Just recently I've been "fixing" such one laptop for a friend of my mother - it was barely strong enough to lift its own Windows installation. I made it much more useful by just replacing the RAM die with a one I pried off a broken laptop that serves as an "organ donor". Hell, I found getting moar RAM to be a quick solution for most of the lower-end laptops that get "too slow".
[1] - this happens for mobile too (as I experienced first-hand), so my rule of thumb is that in terms of computers and smartphones, buying cheap is worse than not buying at all
Requirements don't enter into it - and even the requirements from Win7 to Win10 didn't rise that much. I could live with slightly hungrier but better OS. Emphasis on "better".
They only just moved them up. 10 I've found runs better on older hardware than 7, it's was the same story for 8.
They just increased them. You now need 2GB for the 32-bit version of Win10, iirc. That's the only change, though.
What would someone with 2GB memory do with a computer? State at the desktop? Once you start opening tabs, Firefox and Chrome can easily take up 4GB memory if available.
If available. If not, you'll quickly learn to not open 50 tabs (it's not like you're actually browsing in all of them). Had to work on such a PC out of necessity, and :5 tabs should be enough for everyone" ;)
But seriously: 2 GB on Windows (7) is still usable, even though not entirely comfortable. (Of course, on LXLE, 2 GB is a lot, but that's an entirely different can of worms)
But seriously: 2 GB on Windows (7) is still usable, even though not entirely comfortable. (Of course, on LXLE, 2 GB is a lot, but that's an entirely different can of worms)
If China did this what would you think the reasons would be? Of course it would be to spy on their citizens, to exert social control.
What makes us think the US is so different after the stuff that's gone down in recent years?
I genuinely consider it a possibility that this is linked to the panic over terrorism and that governments now have access to the data being hoovered up on practically everyone by Microsoft.
Of course I have no evidence. So the best that can be said objectively is that we cannot know either way, but still my gut is sending me warning messages.
What makes us think the US is so different after the stuff that's gone down in recent years?
I genuinely consider it a possibility that this is linked to the panic over terrorism and that governments now have access to the data being hoovered up on practically everyone by Microsoft.
Of course I have no evidence. So the best that can be said objectively is that we cannot know either way, but still my gut is sending me warning messages.
> "Finally, we will access, disclose and preserve personal data, including your content (such as the content of your emails, other private communications or files in private folders), when we have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary"
(also read https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement/ )
(also read https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement/ )
Everyone does this. Try sending an image of child sexual abuse through your gmail account and see what happens. Google even tells you they do it for rights enforcement:
https://www.google.com/policies/privacy/
> For legal reasons
> We will share personal information with companies, organizations or individuals outside of Google if we have a good-faith belief that access, use, preservation or disclosure of the information is reasonably necessary to:
> * meet any applicable law, regulation, legal process or enforceable governmental request.
> * enforce applicable Terms of Service, including investigation of potential violations.
> * detect, prevent, or otherwise address fraud, security or technical issues.
> * protect against harm to the rights, property or safety of Google, our users or the public as required or permitted by law.
https://www.google.com/policies/privacy/
> For legal reasons
> We will share personal information with companies, organizations or individuals outside of Google if we have a good-faith belief that access, use, preservation or disclosure of the information is reasonably necessary to:
> * meet any applicable law, regulation, legal process or enforceable governmental request.
> * enforce applicable Terms of Service, including investigation of potential violations.
> * detect, prevent, or otherwise address fraud, security or technical issues.
> * protect against harm to the rights, property or safety of Google, our users or the public as required or permitted by law.
How is that even in the same league? Google can disclose, what you send to their servers. Microsoft can disclose, what you keep on your own machine.
>Microsoft can disclose, what you keep on your own machine.
Want to expand on that a little? Presumably the above quote is regarding skydrive etc.
Want to expand on that a little? Presumably the above quote is regarding skydrive etc.
After some light googling, it appears, that it was a part of original privacy statement, when Windows 10 was released.
For example: https://edri.org/microsofts-new-small-print-how-your-persona...
(when googling the phrase cited by kuschku, the first link is to reddit and there it links to edri).
For example: https://edri.org/microsofts-new-small-print-how-your-persona...
(when googling the phrase cited by kuschku, the first link is to reddit and there it links to edri).
> We will share personal information with __companies__, organizations or __individuals__ outside of Google if we have __a good-faith belief__ that access, use, preservation or disclosure of the information is reasonably necessary to: […] __protect against harm to the rights, property or safety of Google__
That alone can be turned into "we can share whatever we want with anyone whenever we feel like it" very easily, you realize that?
The proper solution would be
> We will share personal information with governments if we are required by law to do so.
Nothing more, nothing less.
That alone can be turned into "we can share whatever we want with anyone whenever we feel like it" very easily, you realize that?
The proper solution would be
> We will share personal information with governments if we are required by law to do so.
Nothing more, nothing less.
"If you want privacy, you must be a child molester or a terrist." Obvious troll is obvious.
On a more serious note, "everyone does that" makes it okay? Really?
On a more serious note, "everyone does that" makes it okay? Really?
Obvious reading comprehention failure is obvious.
DanBC didn't write anything which could imply he believes that "If you want privacy, you must be a child molester or a terrist".
DanBC didn't write anything which could imply he believes that "If you want privacy, you must be a child molester or a terrist".
"Try sending an image of child sexual abuse through your gmail account and see what happens." - the implication is clear: "why else would you fear the Big Brother?"
No, the implication is - do that for a practical demonstration that Google does the same thing 'kuschku pointed out Microsoft does.
I presume the purpose of that sentence is to back up the previous one ("Everybody does this").
I think you need to reread DanBCs comment.
His comment is stating what google does and gives a pretty strong example, not justifying what they do.
His comment is stating what google does and gives a pretty strong example, not justifying what they do.
That's not what I meant. How could I make my comment more clear?
What I meant is that almost all companies will invade privacy to prevent and detect certain crimes. MS does it, but so do Google, Apple, etc etc.
What I meant is that almost all companies will invade privacy to prevent and detect certain crimes. MS does it, but so do Google, Apple, etc etc.
Okay, I apologize for having misread you. Thanks for a level-headed clarification to my angry comment.
> Uses intentionally confusing UI to trick users into installing ("upgrade now or upgrade later?" - note the absence of "do not upgrade")
Just like on iOS! I can just now, or later for my pending upgrade. It pops up everyday.
Just like on iOS! I can just now, or later for my pending upgrade. It pops up everyday.
This drives me completely insane as well.
Note that I would have no problem updating my iphone if it didn't force me to install the latest Xcode to keep developing on it.
Note that I would have no problem updating my iphone if it didn't force me to install the latest Xcode to keep developing on it.
[deleted]
>Windows Nein upgrade is malware, IMNSHO.
This is a particularly shitty meme, can we just stop with it?
>IMSHNO installs without user consent (closing a "upgrade now?" window counts as "no" anywhere, including MSFT UX Guidelines, hello there hypocrisy)
This is how windows updates have always worked, no?
>breaks existing applications (not every box is just Firefox+LibreOffice: specialized apps and drivers do not work well in WinX)
>while the downgrade ("better to worse" is never an upgrade) runs, you can't use your device ("preparing for blahblah, wait.")
These do not malware make.
>erases (or at best hides) user data ("yeah well we just put it all in this completely different folder without notice, it's not like you need your documents, right?")
Try to decide which. Erasing and hiding are two completely different things. And again, this does not make it malware as I doubt they're intentionally deleting anyones files.
>is very difficult to revert
Significantly easier than any previous windows version. If you don't want it, why would you install it? You can just decline the install when the installer starts.
>phones home (again, MS claims there is user consent. So do all the malware writers; I don't think so.)
Yes and so did every windows version before it. Significant parts of the new telemetry have also been backported. Oh, and malware writers certainly don't claim that.
>Each and every of these are traits commonly associated with malware; thank God for GWX Control Panel.
No.
This is a particularly shitty meme, can we just stop with it?
>IMSHNO installs without user consent (closing a "upgrade now?" window counts as "no" anywhere, including MSFT UX Guidelines, hello there hypocrisy)
This is how windows updates have always worked, no?
>breaks existing applications (not every box is just Firefox+LibreOffice: specialized apps and drivers do not work well in WinX)
>while the downgrade ("better to worse" is never an upgrade) runs, you can't use your device ("preparing for blahblah, wait.")
These do not malware make.
>erases (or at best hides) user data ("yeah well we just put it all in this completely different folder without notice, it's not like you need your documents, right?")
Try to decide which. Erasing and hiding are two completely different things. And again, this does not make it malware as I doubt they're intentionally deleting anyones files.
>is very difficult to revert
Significantly easier than any previous windows version. If you don't want it, why would you install it? You can just decline the install when the installer starts.
>phones home (again, MS claims there is user consent. So do all the malware writers; I don't think so.)
Yes and so did every windows version before it. Significant parts of the new telemetry have also been backported. Oh, and malware writers certainly don't claim that.
>Each and every of these are traits commonly associated with malware; thank God for GWX Control Panel.
No.
Shitty meme for a shitty forced upgrade, very fitting. Where do you want to go today? Eh never mind, we get to decide that.
No, that's explicitly not how MS updates worked: up to now, they were updates to existing OS, not automatic reinstall.
If I don't want it, I don't get asked if I want it: 19:00 there was a working Win7 box, 07:00 next day, there was a broken steaming pile of something, apparently Windows 10. No prompts, full auto.
Program files: deleted. Users folder: moved into some other location (both). I don't give a flying fork if that was intentional, it should not have happened, full stop.
In other words, FU, astroturfer. Take your piece of crap and shove it. (Yes, your wonderful Windows Nein has given us about a man-year of unplanned maintenance so far, so you see how happy I'm about it)
No, that's explicitly not how MS updates worked: up to now, they were updates to existing OS, not automatic reinstall.
If I don't want it, I don't get asked if I want it: 19:00 there was a working Win7 box, 07:00 next day, there was a broken steaming pile of something, apparently Windows 10. No prompts, full auto.
Program files: deleted. Users folder: moved into some other location (both). I don't give a flying fork if that was intentional, it should not have happened, full stop.
In other words, FU, astroturfer. Take your piece of crap and shove it. (Yes, your wonderful Windows Nein has given us about a man-year of unplanned maintenance so far, so you see how happy I'm about it)
>No, that's explicitly not how MS updates worked: up to now, they were updates to existing OS, not automatic reinstall.
A semantical difference really, previous windows updates just didn't include major UX revamps.
>If I don't want it, I don't get asked if I want it: 19:00 there was a working Win7 box, 07:00 next day, there was a broken steaming pile of something, apparently Windows 10. No prompts, full auto.
surely you got an EULA prompt, no?
>Program files: deleted. Users folder: moved into some other location (both).
I certainly agree that microsofts QA has failed horribly here.
>In other words, FU, astroturfer.
One could easily accuse you of the same.
A semantical difference really, previous windows updates just didn't include major UX revamps.
>If I don't want it, I don't get asked if I want it: 19:00 there was a working Win7 box, 07:00 next day, there was a broken steaming pile of something, apparently Windows 10. No prompts, full auto.
surely you got an EULA prompt, no?
>Program files: deleted. Users folder: moved into some other location (both).
I certainly agree that microsofts QA has failed horribly here.
>In other words, FU, astroturfer.
One could easily accuse you of the same.
Or major driver changes, huh? Never ever ever had I a working device driver turn nonfunctional overnight. Before this "upgrade," that is.
Who exactly got an EULA prompt on an unattended, locked workstation with nobody at the sear? As I say, the downgrade was full auto: evening W7, morning W10.
Who exactly got an EULA prompt on an unattended, locked workstation with nobody at the sear? As I say, the downgrade was full auto: evening W7, morning W10.
>Or major driver changes, huh? Never ever ever had I a working device driver turn nonfunctional overnight. Before this "upgrade," that is.
Blame your OEM, they're responsible for keeping their drivers functional. Microsoft didn't just go behind OEMs backs and do this.
>Who exactly got an EULA prompt on an unattended, locked workstation with nobody at the sear? As I say, the downgrade was full auto: evening W7, morning W10.
That's certainly strange, are you sure it wasn't just the W10 installer? Or did it really go straight to the login screen?
Blame your OEM, they're responsible for keeping their drivers functional. Microsoft didn't just go behind OEMs backs and do this.
>Who exactly got an EULA prompt on an unattended, locked workstation with nobody at the sear? As I say, the downgrade was full auto: evening W7, morning W10.
That's certainly strange, are you sure it wasn't just the W10 installer? Or did it really go straight to the login screen?
I would blame my OEM IFF I were planning an upgrade. Then I would test it out first, see that it broke stuff, and go looking for a solution.
Oh wait. That's what we did, found that the drivers weren't there, and FRIKKIN DECIDED NOT TO UPGRADE because of this. Acceptable risk of running a recently EOLed product and all that.
Nope, nope nope nope, Microsoft knows better: "here's your new nonfunctional box, not our problem anyway."
No, not an installer: a fully upgraded, but - sadly - significantly dysfunctional W10 (Note that other users around the thread offering similar experiences, so your insistence that it can't ever ever happen sounds very much like wishful thinking). As I said: we have repaved from backups, installed GWX Control Panel, and disabled Windows Update. Personally, I am pretty angry about that last thing, too - but I had no power over mgmt: thanks to your poisoned update, they don't trust it to actually bring security fixes any more, quite the contrary: you, in effect, have mounted a denial-of-service attack on us via WU and nobody cares if it was intentional - "Windows breaks by itself when you need it the least" is now firmly believed by everyone affected (we are considering a move from Win altogether, because for all we know, you might have some other control channel up your sleeve for pushing some more "upgrades").
Oh wait. That's what we did, found that the drivers weren't there, and FRIKKIN DECIDED NOT TO UPGRADE because of this. Acceptable risk of running a recently EOLed product and all that.
Nope, nope nope nope, Microsoft knows better: "here's your new nonfunctional box, not our problem anyway."
No, not an installer: a fully upgraded, but - sadly - significantly dysfunctional W10 (Note that other users around the thread offering similar experiences, so your insistence that it can't ever ever happen sounds very much like wishful thinking). As I said: we have repaved from backups, installed GWX Control Panel, and disabled Windows Update. Personally, I am pretty angry about that last thing, too - but I had no power over mgmt: thanks to your poisoned update, they don't trust it to actually bring security fixes any more, quite the contrary: you, in effect, have mounted a denial-of-service attack on us via WU and nobody cares if it was intentional - "Windows breaks by itself when you need it the least" is now firmly believed by everyone affected (we are considering a move from Win altogether, because for all we know, you might have some other control channel up your sleeve for pushing some more "upgrades").
[deleted]
What the fuck is "IMSHNO"? Not even Google can answer. Is it so difficult to write what acronyms mean instead of acting like a super cool geek?
Not the parent but it's just a typo for IMNSHO, surprised Google didn't get that with only a single adjacent letter swap error.
Ah, I apologize for having confused you. Mistyped "IMNSHO", which stands for "In My Not So Humble Opinion". (Originally, I had used "IMHO", but then have realized that my opinion is anything but humble.)
"In My Not So Humble Opinion." They switched some letters around.
> breaking working installs of W7 for no obvious reason
Obvious reason is they want people to upgrade. Personally I can see why they would be frustrated with people refusing to upgrade a decade old OS even when the upgrade is free.
edit: 7 year old OS.
Obvious reason is they want people to upgrade. Personally I can see why they would be frustrated with people refusing to upgrade a decade old OS even when the upgrade is free.
edit: 7 year old OS.
Yeah, yeah. IF that upgrade was onto something that works like the existing setup, and especially IF it gave ME a choice when to upgrade, no problemo. See, I may have had reasons for holding onto W7, and they weren't "let's spite the Redmond people".
Opening up shop in the morning and finding that none of your equipment works anymore, despite having been perfectly fine yesterday is EEEEEEXACTLY the reason people are refusing to upgrade (because no drivers for WinX, because fuck you that's why, Where Do You Want To Go Today - Windows X Or Windows Ten?). Replacing Microsoft's frustration of "the adoption charts are not high enough" with my frustration of "okay, companywide downtime while IT repaves from backups and scrambles to block the now-rogue vendor" works for them (externalizing costs, hooray!). In the shortest of short terms only, alas - the trust we had in the OS is gone, this could happen again (e.g. at any time in the future MS could decide that their old OS cannibalizes the sales of their Windows Up To 11, or whatever). NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE.
(Technically, "we want you to upgrade because we want you to upgrade" is a bit of circular reasoning)
Opening up shop in the morning and finding that none of your equipment works anymore, despite having been perfectly fine yesterday is EEEEEEXACTLY the reason people are refusing to upgrade (because no drivers for WinX, because fuck you that's why, Where Do You Want To Go Today - Windows X Or Windows Ten?). Replacing Microsoft's frustration of "the adoption charts are not high enough" with my frustration of "okay, companywide downtime while IT repaves from backups and scrambles to block the now-rogue vendor" works for them (externalizing costs, hooray!). In the shortest of short terms only, alas - the trust we had in the OS is gone, this could happen again (e.g. at any time in the future MS could decide that their old OS cannibalizes the sales of their Windows Up To 11, or whatever). NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE.
(Technically, "we want you to upgrade because we want you to upgrade" is a bit of circular reasoning)
Make people WANT to upgrade
You know, being faster and cleaner, added features, reverting what they borked up with 8. What they managed to achieve is a public disgust when someone mentions "windows updates" (in case Windows wasn't mocked enough already).
Good job MS.
You know, being faster and cleaner, added features, reverting what they borked up with 8. What they managed to achieve is a public disgust when someone mentions "windows updates" (in case Windows wasn't mocked enough already).
Good job MS.
The rest of the world (not us) just wants a user interface that's consistent. People need the use of their computers nowadays. They build their lives on top of them. Sweeping that out from under people without asking is NOT ok. Many people rely on old/custom software that could have easily been rendered useless in the transition. This was not an acceptable response to users refusing to upgrade. They should be allowed to do that... They bought the old version. Who cares if the new version is free.
> Personally I can see why they would be frustrated with people refusing to upgrade a decade old OS
Why?
They can just end support for old versions per their EULAs and shut-off access to the update servers.
Canonical doesn't care if I'm still using 8.04, they have no responsibility or liability for old releases. Why would MS be any different?
There's a deeper reason for this upgrade push but I don't know what it is.
Why?
They can just end support for old versions per their EULAs and shut-off access to the update servers.
Canonical doesn't care if I'm still using 8.04, they have no responsibility or liability for old releases. Why would MS be any different?
There's a deeper reason for this upgrade push but I don't know what it is.
Microsoft is simultaneously more open than ever (dev-related) and acting just like the 90s (consumer-related). So strange, Windows 10 is pretty nice but they risk destroying reputation with spyware and deceit. I am assuming they are desperate to get people onto the continuous upgrade train to avoid the Windows XP situation occur inn again.
That's being nice to Microsoft.
Another way to see it is that they want to monetize their users by taking a cut of the software installed with the app store, with bing integrated in the OS, and with ads being served directly in the OS.
And they care more about monetizing their users than their users privacy or interest.
Another way to see it is that they want to monetize their users by taking a cut of the software installed with the app store, with bing integrated in the OS, and with ads being served directly in the OS.
And they care more about monetizing their users than their users privacy or interest.
> "…they care more about monetizing their users than their users privacy or interest."
Sadly this is true for all but a handful of companies.
Sadly this is true for all but a handful of companies.
The opening up on the dev side is not a signal that they've had a change of heart. It's just a ploy to stave off future irrelevance.
With consumers using Windows they still dominate the market. Hence no need to be Mr nice guy.
If their open sourcing strategy works and leads to any kind of market dominance I'm pretty confident that they'll revert to old tactics on the dev side just like before.
With consumers using Windows they still dominate the market. Hence no need to be Mr nice guy.
If their open sourcing strategy works and leads to any kind of market dominance I'm pretty confident that they'll revert to old tactics on the dev side just like before.
This is exactly how I see things too. I'm pretty amazed by the naivety I see around here. None of their open sourcing moves are immune to a complete 180° turn on their part, making the move effectively void. On the contrary, all their recent moves look like they are just after getting all those devs that use Linux and OSX to move to Windows.
It's already happening, look at all the people just in this thread who refuse to update to 10.
And then look around and see the genpops, the non-tech-savvy people who already know they don't want to upgrade to Windows 10. I was really surprised by that initially - it's rare that people outside of tech know anything about any of the bullshit companies pull, but here I suddenly had random people consulting me on the Windows 10 issue...
I've ended up installing GWX Control Panel to thwart this BS: http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/.
Feel all sorts of ridiculous for having to do so, especially from a security perspective, but here we are.
--
I've read that one way to go about this is to create a disk image, upgrade to W10, and then restoring from your disk image back to whatever your current version is.
This way, you can also install W10 past the deadline of ultimo July - but Windows might continue nagging you in the inteim.
Haven't tried it, but at least you'll save the potential $100 if you intend to upgrade down the line.
Feel all sorts of ridiculous for having to do so, especially from a security perspective, but here we are.
--
I've read that one way to go about this is to create a disk image, upgrade to W10, and then restoring from your disk image back to whatever your current version is.
This way, you can also install W10 past the deadline of ultimo July - but Windows might continue nagging you in the inteim.
Haven't tried it, but at least you'll save the potential $100 if you intend to upgrade down the line.
Another great tool is the Aegis Win7/8 cleanup kit. It'll uninstall all of the Win10 nagware that seems to make it into every OS update. It also blocks a lot of the MS phone-home hosts and removes a bunch of other spyware Microsoft has backported to Win7 and 8 from 10.
"Block 197 bad hosts, change windows update to check/notify (do not download/install), disable automatic delivery of internet explorer via windows update, disable ceip/gwx/skydrive(aka onedrive)/spynet/telemetry/wifisense, disable remote registry, disable 31 scheduled tasks, disable windows 10 download directory, remove diagtrack, sync time to ntp.org, hide/uninstall 50 kb updates (see below)."
https://github.com/th3power/aegis-voat
https://voat.co/v/technology/comments/853510
"Block 197 bad hosts, change windows update to check/notify (do not download/install), disable automatic delivery of internet explorer via windows update, disable ceip/gwx/skydrive(aka onedrive)/spynet/telemetry/wifisense, disable remote registry, disable 31 scheduled tasks, disable windows 10 download directory, remove diagtrack, sync time to ntp.org, hide/uninstall 50 kb updates (see below)."
https://github.com/th3power/aegis-voat
https://voat.co/v/technology/comments/853510
Keep in mind that the prior windows key/OS combination may be invalidated by MS during (or at any point after) this process, leading them to treat a running instance of the prior OS as a pirated version.
Or just set two registry keys and never think about it again or have third party programs running
https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/kb/3080351
Just save the following in a .reg file and run or add the keys manually and you never see any of the upgrade crap ever again. At least I never have since last July when I did this on a Win7 machine.
https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/kb/3080351
Just save the following in a .reg file and run or add the keys manually and you never see any of the upgrade crap ever again. At least I never have since last July when I did this on a Win7 machine.
Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\WindowsUpdate]
"DisableOSUpgrade"=dword:00000001
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\GWX]
"DisableGWX"=dword:00000001The problem with this is that malware keeps evolving: originally it used to be a single key, but look, people kept disabling it, canna have that, let's make it two keys. GWX has its own update, and keeps up with the squirming Windows Nein Update fairly well.
Equally as bad is OSX. Decided to downgrade from El Capitan to Mountain Lion because I've a 2012 machine and my GPU blew under El Capitan. Now i can't access my iPad 2 Air because it's forcing me to upgrade iTunes and the only way to do that is to update back to El Capitan.
I have to commit the dirtiest, skankiest, filthiest trick by using Windows to access my iPad now.
I have to commit the dirtiest, skankiest, filthiest trick by using Windows to access my iPad now.
You don't need to connect to any device to update your iPad OTA updates have been standard for a reeeaaaallly long time now
Yes, don't need to connect to update, but if you want to transfer music, movies, photos in bulk to the iPad that isn't on iCloud or whatever, then no joy.
Can't you re-install from your original DVD?
Provided there is an original DVD. Current machines do not come with one.
My MBP originally came with Yosemite, but at the time it was delivered, El-Capitan was already out. So I thought, that it will be easier to update, while the machine is not customized yet.
Now I don't know, how to downgrade. The Apple Store offers only El-Capitan for download, not Yosemite.
My MBP originally came with Yosemite, but at the time it was delivered, El-Capitan was already out. So I thought, that it will be easier to update, while the machine is not customized yet.
Now I don't know, how to downgrade. The Apple Store offers only El-Capitan for download, not Yosemite.
Isn't it funny that Microsoft had this whole Scroogle campaign and now they're doing exactly that but much worse because they slip stuff you disable/removed back in via updates and updates cannot be selectively ignored/disabled in Windows 10 anymore?
Someone on a more popular tech site needs to pull this out and write a piece about it (Verge, Ars).
The line to "unauthorised computer access" has be crossed several times.
Usually investigators are overzealous with prosecuting this crime, but i doubt anybody will neven ever start investigations against microsoft.
Usually investigators are overzealous with prosecuting this crime, but i doubt anybody will neven ever start investigations against microsoft.
The worst thing about it for me is that I have two computers not compatible with windows 10 (super old graphics cards). Yet the upgrade prompt continues to appear.
I know the machines aren't compatible because I upgraded one using the nagging prompt and... kaboom.
I know the machines aren't compatible because I upgraded one using the nagging prompt and... kaboom.
Not only that, people asume that windows is easily upgradable, but it's not. If you buy an OEM laptop , which is the norm, if the manufacturer doesn't provide updated drivers you might end with a bad user experience. I have to ASUS laptops at home (N56VZ and U36SG) and both have hiccups and short freezes using windows 10. The only thing differente between Windows 7 or Windows 8 is that i don't have updated drivers from OEM. This made me realize where buying an expensive mac might payoff in the long run.
Check out Never 10 from Steve Gibson. Should set you up to prevent this.
https://www.grc.com/never10.htm
https://www.grc.com/never10.htm
Why don't you roll back the the patch. Just search google for the KB number and uninstall. Then go into windows update and hide it. I did this on a couple of systems at work. edit: oops, I missed someone already posted it below.
I find all of the outrage over this to be completely overblown. Everyone complains that OS upgrades are too difficult and so they desperately try to avoid them. This results in running 7 year old code that is going to stop being supported in a few short years.
Windows 10 is a free upgrade to a an operating system that will be supported for much longer than 7. Also, Windows has adopted a new release cycle that eschews long monolithic upgrades for a more continuous and easy to manage upgrade process. This may be the last time you need to hunker down and do a painful upgrade.
I empathize with non-technical users for whom this is a trying experience, but literally every other vendor gets a free pass because you replace your phone every few years, or you've adjusted to a yearly upgrade cycle that is pretty painless.
I feel like Microsoft is trying to give people what they want, and all they get in return is kicking and screaming. Until in a few years when they stop supporting older versions of Windows and your Mom gets infected with Randsomware. Then you'll still blame Microsoft, and won't be able to believe that they want to charge you $100 for the privilege of getting on a supported OS.
Windows 10 is a free upgrade to a an operating system that will be supported for much longer than 7. Also, Windows has adopted a new release cycle that eschews long monolithic upgrades for a more continuous and easy to manage upgrade process. This may be the last time you need to hunker down and do a painful upgrade.
I empathize with non-technical users for whom this is a trying experience, but literally every other vendor gets a free pass because you replace your phone every few years, or you've adjusted to a yearly upgrade cycle that is pretty painless.
I feel like Microsoft is trying to give people what they want, and all they get in return is kicking and screaming. Until in a few years when they stop supporting older versions of Windows and your Mom gets infected with Randsomware. Then you'll still blame Microsoft, and won't be able to believe that they want to charge you $100 for the privilege of getting on a supported OS.
>I feel like Microsoft is trying to give people what they want, and all they get in return is kicking and screaming.
They're not giving me what I want. Windows 10 isn't what I want.
We wanted Windows 7 with modernizations, not Windows 8.1 with more spyware baked in.
>Until in a few years when they stop supporting older versions of Windows and your Mom gets infected with Randsomware. Then you'll still blame Microsoft, and won't be able to believe that they want to charge you $100 for the privilege of getting on a supported OS.
What planet do you live on where "supported" means "immune to malware"?
They're not giving me what I want. Windows 10 isn't what I want.
We wanted Windows 7 with modernizations, not Windows 8.1 with more spyware baked in.
>Until in a few years when they stop supporting older versions of Windows and your Mom gets infected with Randsomware. Then you'll still blame Microsoft, and won't be able to believe that they want to charge you $100 for the privilege of getting on a supported OS.
What planet do you live on where "supported" means "immune to malware"?
«We wanted Windows 7 with modernizations, not Windows 8.1 with more spyware baked in.»
Hahaha. I wanted Windows 10 to be an upgrade from Windows 8.1 not a downgrade to Windows 7.8. Windows 10 is absolutely a "Windows 7 with modernizations". It lost a lot of Windows 8's charm (literally as well as figuratively) due to complaints from the same vocal crowd that is whining about "spyware". Microsoft will never make y'all happy, but it's still trying, while meanwhile y'all will keep coming up with excuses why Microsoft is the devil and Windows n-2 was really the peak of what Windows should ever aspire to be.
(That said, I do really like Windows 10 and even if I'm disappointed it didn't carry through some of the things I really liked about Windows 8.1, I'd still rather use Windows 10 than Windows < 10.)
Hahaha. I wanted Windows 10 to be an upgrade from Windows 8.1 not a downgrade to Windows 7.8. Windows 10 is absolutely a "Windows 7 with modernizations". It lost a lot of Windows 8's charm (literally as well as figuratively) due to complaints from the same vocal crowd that is whining about "spyware". Microsoft will never make y'all happy, but it's still trying, while meanwhile y'all will keep coming up with excuses why Microsoft is the devil and Windows n-2 was really the peak of what Windows should ever aspire to be.
(That said, I do really like Windows 10 and even if I'm disappointed it didn't carry through some of the things I really liked about Windows 8.1, I'd still rather use Windows 10 than Windows < 10.)
Win10 on 100% of my clients' desktops is what I want though.
> or you've adjusted to a yearly upgrade cycle that is pretty painless
Painless? Since when spending hours on restoring a working computer is painless?
Restoring my phone from a factory reset takes 4-6 hours with all the passwords, configs, apps, etc, if the phone is no rooted and backed up with some massively hacky 3rd party software.
Restoring my computer is 2-3 DAYS. Yes, days, because there are things I keep forgetting about and setting it up correctly if a long time. No, I'm not going to install everything on my desktop via ansible scripts.
Painless? Since when spending hours on restoring a working computer is painless?
Restoring my phone from a factory reset takes 4-6 hours with all the passwords, configs, apps, etc, if the phone is no rooted and backed up with some massively hacky 3rd party software.
Restoring my computer is 2-3 DAYS. Yes, days, because there are things I keep forgetting about and setting it up correctly if a long time. No, I'm not going to install everything on my desktop via ansible scripts.
[deleted]
A few years ago there was usually a huge "don't change my facebook" uproar every time facebook changed the functionality or layout of the site. Yet every time a change was implemented, a few weeks went by and most people forgot it ever changed and loved the new layout and/or functionality.
Facebook could and can do that because they own facebook, and you are the product (being sold to marketers, etc.)
I think people are slowly realizing that the situation is the same with Windows, there's always been complaints when new Windows versions came out, Win98 => ME => 2k => XP => Vista => 7 => 8 => 10. But usually people only experienced the switch whenever they got a new computer with a newer version of Windows on it.
Edit: http://www.allwelike.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/26-Faceb...
Facebook could and can do that because they own facebook, and you are the product (being sold to marketers, etc.)
I think people are slowly realizing that the situation is the same with Windows, there's always been complaints when new Windows versions came out, Win98 => ME => 2k => XP => Vista => 7 => 8 => 10. But usually people only experienced the switch whenever they got a new computer with a newer version of Windows on it.
Edit: http://www.allwelike.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/26-Faceb...
The company that I had an internship at a few years ago (in software development) also pieced together computers from individually selected components for special customers (say, from medical sector or engineering).
At that time customers nearly always insisted that despite Windows 8 would have advantages for them to have Windows 7 installed (if they weren't ordering the computer with only some GNU/Linux distribution installed, as some customers also did). The reason is that often there were employees at the company that ordered the PC which couldn't get along with the new GUI (the same thing also happened for the Ribbon GUI that was introduced with Office 2007; I know people who still prefer the old Office 2003 GUI and only use the current version because they have to).
So already at that time lots of customers were waiting for the version that came after 8.0/8.1.
But Microsoft did the completely wrong thing: While fixing the GUI annoyances with Windows 10 (as far as I have heard) they introduced espionage functionality into Windows 10 - a cardinal sin in many European countries where lots of people are deeply worried about the US spying since the Snowden revelations. Also lots of German companies are very afraid of corporate espionage from the US (at the same level or even more as they fear it from China) - and they have good reasons for being worried - I just say "Enercon":
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Enercon&oldid=711...
At that time customers nearly always insisted that despite Windows 8 would have advantages for them to have Windows 7 installed (if they weren't ordering the computer with only some GNU/Linux distribution installed, as some customers also did). The reason is that often there were employees at the company that ordered the PC which couldn't get along with the new GUI (the same thing also happened for the Ribbon GUI that was introduced with Office 2007; I know people who still prefer the old Office 2003 GUI and only use the current version because they have to).
So already at that time lots of customers were waiting for the version that came after 8.0/8.1.
But Microsoft did the completely wrong thing: While fixing the GUI annoyances with Windows 10 (as far as I have heard) they introduced espionage functionality into Windows 10 - a cardinal sin in many European countries where lots of people are deeply worried about the US spying since the Snowden revelations. Also lots of German companies are very afraid of corporate espionage from the US (at the same level or even more as they fear it from China) - and they have good reasons for being worried - I just say "Enercon":
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Enercon&oldid=711...
There is an important difference between a new feature on a social network and a whole new OS. Many people have software and/or drivers installed that won't work on a newer OS.
I agree! I just think Microsoft either has not taken into account the possible backlash from breaking people's printers, scanners, webcams, programs, etc. or maybe they have taken it into account and decided the backlash was worth the increased Win10 marketshare.
Backlash? It will take years for sales to be affected (the general population cannot switch to Mac/Linux in less time) and the courts won't lift a finger.
as far as I know for Windows 7 and 8
uninstall and block these updates to stop WX nag and auto install
WX related - KB 3035583 WX related - KB 3150513
uninstall and block these updates to stop Windows spyware
Spyware - KB 3068708 Spyware - KB 3022345 Spyware - KB 3075249 Spyware - KB 3080149 Spyware - KB 3146449
uninstall and block these updates to stop WX nag and auto install
WX related - KB 3035583 WX related - KB 3150513
uninstall and block these updates to stop Windows spyware
Spyware - KB 3068708 Spyware - KB 3022345 Spyware - KB 3075249 Spyware - KB 3080149 Spyware - KB 3146449
You may want to check this one out.. more specifically BlockWindows.bat
https://github.com/WindowsLies/BlockWindows
https://github.com/WindowsLies/BlockWindows
Keep in mind that you have to be vigilant every time you install updates. Microsoft can (and often does) release multiple versions of updates, and it appears the ignore flag is not preserved between versions.
The fact it still tries to peddle me SILVERLIGHT despite that getting "Hide Update"d every time it's ever been offered makes me think that (separate from W10-related strategic malice) there's also basic incompetence in the way Windows Update is designed/operated. I don't believe it's in MS's current interest to actively promote Silverlight and yet there it is again and again.
It's the Windows update system being a horrible mess instead of a proper package manager. Each time you hide it, what you get is apparently a new update with the same name. If you hide it enough times, you eventually hide every available update and it won't reappear (at least, until they issue a new one). Really annoying!
This story lasted only 4 hours on HN frontpage, despite a lot of interest and engagement.
* Constant starting/shuttering of their mobile OS offerings.
* Using sock puppets, advertorials and other shady methods to shape opinion.
* Disregarding user privacy in Windows 10 (and extending that to Windows 7/8 via security updates)
* Forcing users of Windows 7/8 to update to Windows 10. It's basically malware at this stage.
* Constant starting/shuttering of their mobile OS offerings.
* Using sock puppets, advertorials and other shady methods to shape opinion.
* Disregarding user privacy in Windows 10 (and extending that to Windows 7/8 via security updates)
* Forcing users of Windows 7/8 to update to Windows 10. It's basically malware at this stage.
Maybe because every day a rant about this is being posted?
What does pressing esc key do? It usually has same functionality as pressing X button right? If pressing esc installs windows 10 too I am speechless
It's more of a notification than a question dialogue. It tells you that Windows 10 is a "recommended update" now (instead of optional which it was before). That means no matter how you close the window, now you'll get the update unless you actively disable it in time.
I love the "it's worked like this for months" quote. Yeh, you silently switched the behaviour for a single case a couple of months ago in an feature people rarely use. How could anyone be upset about that?
How come there is no legislation that limits what software corporations are allowed to do? Just imagine if regular companies that deal with physical stuff were allowed to do the same. It's like if they broke into your house to replace or 'upgrade' your stuff without your consent. Companies can literally break into people's homes and change stuff.
To remove all of MS's nagware and spyware on Win7 and 8 use this: https://github.com/th3power/aegis-voat#aegisvoat
Just in case anyone may be interested..
https://github.com/WindowsLies/BlockWindows
A bit OT: Is there a reliable way to keep from sending the keystrokes back to the MS servers?
Okay Microsoft gets a ton of hate for the, but the standard for today is software that automatically updates and often even one cannot control update at all since the software resides in the cloud. Maybe this is the most egregious case so far, maybe it isn't, but it's clear that we'll be seeing a lot more of this in the future, not just from Microsoft.
Does that upgrade in the cloud result in nonfunctional computers? QED.
Okay, clearly I made an unpopular comment. But I'll keep playing devil's advocate here. Yes, automatically updating software has long caused computers to become nonfunctional on occasion. This is not a first time, and in fact I haven't seen anyone complain about Windows 10 making their computer nonfunctional I've just seen complaints about it making it different. I'm sure someone has had problems with the Windows 10 update and that you can find an example. But I can also find examples of people with Service Pack updates (or even smaller ones) causing problems, for example.
If you were really only interested in the cloud software case (which I assume you singled out because you new the general case to obviously go against your argument), then yes, I still claim this happens in a very important sense. When gmail updated its interface, my mom stopped receiving some emails. Of course, they were hidden in different categories and she really was receiving them, but if she silently misses important emails... in what sense is the computer not nonfunctional? That's like 50% of what she does with it. Or in a more general sense, my parents' previous computer was slowly bogged down by a million iTunes updates that made it more and more of a system hog that made most of the rest of the computer unbearably slow.
My argument is that this is a matter of degree. Degree is significant, but people are acting as if this forced update is in a class of its own instead of being just the latest in a long (and growing) line of automatic updates that the consumer has less and less control over. Fight back against it if you wish, but don't pretend most software these days isn't doing (or wishing it could be doing) approximately this already.
None of this excuses the fact that they make it appear opt-out in manners that trick the consumer in to "opting in". That's just plain deception.
If you were really only interested in the cloud software case (which I assume you singled out because you new the general case to obviously go against your argument), then yes, I still claim this happens in a very important sense. When gmail updated its interface, my mom stopped receiving some emails. Of course, they were hidden in different categories and she really was receiving them, but if she silently misses important emails... in what sense is the computer not nonfunctional? That's like 50% of what she does with it. Or in a more general sense, my parents' previous computer was slowly bogged down by a million iTunes updates that made it more and more of a system hog that made most of the rest of the computer unbearably slow.
My argument is that this is a matter of degree. Degree is significant, but people are acting as if this forced update is in a class of its own instead of being just the latest in a long (and growing) line of automatic updates that the consumer has less and less control over. Fight back against it if you wish, but don't pretend most software these days isn't doing (or wishing it could be doing) approximately this already.
None of this excuses the fact that they make it appear opt-out in manners that trick the consumer in to "opting in". That's just plain deception.
That's semantics. If my work depends on software that broke after an automatic upgrade, then the computer is "nonfunctional" to me. Alternatively, your computer isn't nonfunctional because Microsoft force-installed Windows 10 on it - you can still remove Windows and install something else.
I think it was foolhardy of Microsoft to "force" the update(or more aptly, trick people into updating) because it would be practically impossible to verify that the upgrade would go smoothly on all machines. However, I don't see their action as notably different from any other essential software I install on my computer.
I think it was foolhardy of Microsoft to "force" the update(or more aptly, trick people into updating) because it would be practically impossible to verify that the upgrade would go smoothly on all machines. However, I don't see their action as notably different from any other essential software I install on my computer.
What is notably different is the automated nature of the install: I want to install essential upgrades during scheduled downtime, not meddle with reverts during a working-day rush hour when the computer is supposed to be doing something useful (i.e. people depend on the workstation to be up so they can do their jobs, and other people depend on that, etc.) This is the huge f-ckup.
As I see it, the popup is merely a notification that the upgrade has been scheduled. Why not taking the time to read it and cancel the upgrade? It's been like that for years (remember "the computer will restart in 10 minutes" popup from Win7?)
Anyway, as a result all her .docx files got associated with microsoft office (yes, during the upgrade windows "forgot" her preference for libreoffice) and to add insult to injury, the files wouldn't even open, instead whenever she double clicked one of them she'd get an ad urging her to buy an office 365 subscription to allow her to see her own fucking files.
I'm done with Microsoft, forever. No matter what they do, I will never trust them again.