Uber rolls out in-app tipping(washingtonpost.com)
washingtonpost.com
Uber rolls out in-app tipping
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2017/06/20/uber-rolls-out-in-app-tipping-for-drivers/
375 comments
+1
And Uber is... gone (from my phone). I hate tipping with a passion and despite Uber's questionable practices I was prepared to use it instead of Lyft based solely on tipping.
So now I, as a user, have to concern myself with issues like: is the driver actually getting the tip? Or is Uber taking a cut? Does this mean Uber is paying the driver less because they can now get a tip?
I don't want to have to concern myself with issues like this. I really don't.
And Uber is... gone (from my phone). I hate tipping with a passion and despite Uber's questionable practices I was prepared to use it instead of Lyft based solely on tipping.
So now I, as a user, have to concern myself with issues like: is the driver actually getting the tip? Or is Uber taking a cut? Does this mean Uber is paying the driver less because they can now get a tip?
I don't want to have to concern myself with issues like this. I really don't.
Yeah this is stupid. I'm not sure what I'm tipppng for anyway,"good driving" a "clean car"? These are the comments I can see being assigned to tips. Can I just, please, have a fixed priced service without frills to get me to and from places. It's not an experience I care enough about to optimize the time with my service operator, by bribing them to treat me better than others.
I'm glad it's summer, less taxis and more biking!
I'm glad it's summer, less taxis and more biking!
Assuming you're in NYC (based on the last sentence), you should check out Juno. They take a smaller percentage of revenue for the trip, and that makes me feel far better about not tipping.
Toronto :(
Well said. I hate all tipping. Hallmark of a stupid society. No surprise, DeBlasio pushed to require it in NYC. That guy is a complete and utter moron.
This was basically the only reason I ever used Uber instead of Lyft. Now I'll just use Lyft 100% of the time since drivers seem to like them better anyway.
So because Uber added tipping, you'll use Lyft, which has tipping?
...yeah.
Tipping < not tipping
Uber + not tipping > Lyft + tipping
Uber + tipping < Lyft + tipping
Tipping < not tipping
Uber + not tipping > Lyft + tipping
Uber + tipping < Lyft + tipping
[deleted]
Agree as well. Do you know how Lyft shows tips to the drivers? Aggregated at the end of the pay period or?
Yes. Drivers tend to prefer Lyft but I'd still sometimes use Uber since I didn't have to worry about tips. Now that Uber no longer differentiates itself in that way I may as well just use lyft all the time.
You know what, I am in a college town that is otherwise way too small for Uber and Lyft, but we have service because of the college. I was on a two hour train ride home after 12 hours of air travel, to save a couple of bucks. I arrived at the train station after the three hour ride (one hour late) at about 1:00am, and all of the Uber drivers had gone to sleep at least an hour ago!
I was so glad to see one Lyft driver still signed on, when the conductor came and told me we'd be at the station in 20 minutes. When he got me home with no hassle, I felt compelled to leave a $10 tip. I've never been a heavy user of either service, but I believe the Lyft app has had this feature for a long time.
Because this guy personally saved me from a $20 cab ride, at least, when all of the other cars had left the map, it was easily worth $10 extra. Now writing about it I think I should have tipped $20! I shudder to think what I would have done if I had to depend on Uber instead, where the price only goes up when there is a surge in demand.
(Probably would have taken a cab, I'm sure it's not as bleak as I'm making it out to be, but the fact is Uber drivers all went to sleep at 12:00, for some reason, and Lyft stayed up. I wonder if it was because of tips? To Insure Prompt Service! I don't know if this is a major difference for the drivers, but when I've asked people who drive for both services off-hand which one they prefer, I've never heard any of them answer Uber. It's always Lyft.)
I was so glad to see one Lyft driver still signed on, when the conductor came and told me we'd be at the station in 20 minutes. When he got me home with no hassle, I felt compelled to leave a $10 tip. I've never been a heavy user of either service, but I believe the Lyft app has had this feature for a long time.
Because this guy personally saved me from a $20 cab ride, at least, when all of the other cars had left the map, it was easily worth $10 extra. Now writing about it I think I should have tipped $20! I shudder to think what I would have done if I had to depend on Uber instead, where the price only goes up when there is a surge in demand.
(Probably would have taken a cab, I'm sure it's not as bleak as I'm making it out to be, but the fact is Uber drivers all went to sleep at 12:00, for some reason, and Lyft stayed up. I wonder if it was because of tips? To Insure Prompt Service! I don't know if this is a major difference for the drivers, but when I've asked people who drive for both services off-hand which one they prefer, I've never heard any of them answer Uber. It's always Lyft.)
Preventing that sort of situation is the point of surge pricing. Even without tips, drivers are supposed to be getting paid more when demand for rides is greater than the supply. Then they don't need to hope that you're a friendly person; they'll know they're getting paid an amount that's worth staying up that late.
I get it, but I'm not sure you know what Uber is like in a semi-isolated small town, that seemingly only has Uber at all because of the University, at a time when University is out of session.
In my case if they all went to sleep, it's not that the demand was low... if that last guy goes to sleep, or someone else calls him first, it's the supply that's low. There's no surge pricing, if they all go to sleep, you'll have to start walking across town! They're not calling someone in for surge pricing, you're waiting for them to wake up or you're calling a cab if you're lucky for definitely at least twice as much (and then of course, with absolutely none of the convenience of Uber or Lyft)
This guy wasn't just staying up for a tip! He was literally on vacation from the corndog factory, where he worked 3rd shift maintaining the machines that they use to make corndogs, normally up every day til at least 5 or 7am, so he was going to be awake at this time anyway, I guess I just got lucky. (He almost crashed the car in a roundabout on the way, I still gave him a perfect rating anyway, I was so grateful for the ride.)
I also asked him about the corndogs and he said that it was kind of disgusting the number of corndogs they actually make every day, and to think that means people must be eating them at about the same rate? Millions of damn corndogs.
Anyway about the Lyft, the delay happened very late in the train ride, I was supposed to arrive at about 12:00 midnight, but I didn't get there til at least 12:45. We were stopped 20 miles outside of town, where there's nothing, in the middle of Northern Indiana... so scheduling a ride is basically right out for me, I don't know when I'll be arriving until it's about 12:30am. I've got basically nobody to call.
I spent about two hours nervously eyeing the real-time maps, watching the small number of idle Uber cars and the last of them going offline at 12, and the overall number of idle Lyft cars in the entire city dwindle from 4, to 2, almost instantly at 12:00 like they turned into pumpkins, and then down to 1 as it drew closer to 12:15. I'm talking nobody, in at least a 45 minute radius. Thankfully, this one guy stayed up! Unless I got played by the Lyft app, this was an emotional rollercoaster. I mean I've never been out west like this, I spent the whole day traveling from Utah in and out of Airports, and train stations, after already another solid week of traveling during the prior week and now I was so ready to get home.
I simply can't express this tale of that one awesome guy who stayed awake for Lyft enough times, or in the fullness of its glory. But only to emphasize the point, that I was able to express my gratitude in the form of a tip after leaving the vehicle. The only tip that seemed appropriate was about 133%, the fare was only $7, so, $10! I just assumed the app would let me do it, I didn't try to fumble with cash; I have used Uber and Lyft combined a total of maybe 5 times before. I didn't even know you couldn't tip with Uber (at that time.)
Probably was the only person on that train who needed to order a ride from Lyft. Most everyone on that train was a sleeper, headed for parts of New York, and everyone else (total of maybe 8 people) looked like they had pre-arranged rides with family.
In my case if they all went to sleep, it's not that the demand was low... if that last guy goes to sleep, or someone else calls him first, it's the supply that's low. There's no surge pricing, if they all go to sleep, you'll have to start walking across town! They're not calling someone in for surge pricing, you're waiting for them to wake up or you're calling a cab if you're lucky for definitely at least twice as much (and then of course, with absolutely none of the convenience of Uber or Lyft)
This guy wasn't just staying up for a tip! He was literally on vacation from the corndog factory, where he worked 3rd shift maintaining the machines that they use to make corndogs, normally up every day til at least 5 or 7am, so he was going to be awake at this time anyway, I guess I just got lucky. (He almost crashed the car in a roundabout on the way, I still gave him a perfect rating anyway, I was so grateful for the ride.)
I also asked him about the corndogs and he said that it was kind of disgusting the number of corndogs they actually make every day, and to think that means people must be eating them at about the same rate? Millions of damn corndogs.
Anyway about the Lyft, the delay happened very late in the train ride, I was supposed to arrive at about 12:00 midnight, but I didn't get there til at least 12:45. We were stopped 20 miles outside of town, where there's nothing, in the middle of Northern Indiana... so scheduling a ride is basically right out for me, I don't know when I'll be arriving until it's about 12:30am. I've got basically nobody to call.
I spent about two hours nervously eyeing the real-time maps, watching the small number of idle Uber cars and the last of them going offline at 12, and the overall number of idle Lyft cars in the entire city dwindle from 4, to 2, almost instantly at 12:00 like they turned into pumpkins, and then down to 1 as it drew closer to 12:15. I'm talking nobody, in at least a 45 minute radius. Thankfully, this one guy stayed up! Unless I got played by the Lyft app, this was an emotional rollercoaster. I mean I've never been out west like this, I spent the whole day traveling from Utah in and out of Airports, and train stations, after already another solid week of traveling during the prior week and now I was so ready to get home.
I simply can't express this tale of that one awesome guy who stayed awake for Lyft enough times, or in the fullness of its glory. But only to emphasize the point, that I was able to express my gratitude in the form of a tip after leaving the vehicle. The only tip that seemed appropriate was about 133%, the fare was only $7, so, $10! I just assumed the app would let me do it, I didn't try to fumble with cash; I have used Uber and Lyft combined a total of maybe 5 times before. I didn't even know you couldn't tip with Uber (at that time.)
Probably was the only person on that train who needed to order a ride from Lyft. Most everyone on that train was a sleeper, headed for parts of New York, and everyone else (total of maybe 8 people) looked like they had pre-arranged rides with family.
That's definitely the case where tipping is a good thing. If tipping is not expected then it won't be that bad.
I hear your "if tipping is not expected then" but I don't see a plan of action to make this the case. Wages may be artificially depressed by the construct of tipping, but shutting off the prospect of tips, does not magically increase wages.
This reminds me of the time that Donald Trump told everyone he hasn't heard any criticism of the DAPL, and meanwhile there is a massive #TurnOnYourPhone campaign aimed at him on Twitter, because the White House comment line had been closed since he took office.
Shutting down the conduit does not magically erase the demand! The demand is still there, it's just not visible anymore.
This reminds me of the time that Donald Trump told everyone he hasn't heard any criticism of the DAPL, and meanwhile there is a massive #TurnOnYourPhone campaign aimed at him on Twitter, because the White House comment line had been closed since he took office.
Shutting down the conduit does not magically erase the demand! The demand is still there, it's just not visible anymore.
Make tipping harder, ie don't build it in to the app. If its not built in, it won't be come an expectation. Nothing is stopping someone from handing over cash.
> Make tipping harder
That's the opposite of what I want. I leave a tip because I want to reward good service. When good service is provided regularly, I want to see it rewarded regularly. Making it harder to tip reduces the frequency with which good service is rewarded directly. You literally said "make tipping harder."
I want to tip when I've been provided exceptional service. I don't really want you to make it harder for me to tip. Show me a study that says, making it harder to tip statistically results in higher wages, obviating the need to tip!
I don't want to have an awkward conversation where I ask the driver if it's acceptable to hand over cash as a tip, when all signs seem to be pointing to "no, tips are not considered a usual part of this exchange." I may want to leave a tip! The transaction is not a cash transaction, so exchanging cash is unusual. Now I have to carry cash to complete an otherwise totally digital transaction.
I expect a way to leave a tip as part of my transaction, if you don't want to leave one then don't leave one! Or, drive yourself!
That's the opposite of what I want. I leave a tip because I want to reward good service. When good service is provided regularly, I want to see it rewarded regularly. Making it harder to tip reduces the frequency with which good service is rewarded directly. You literally said "make tipping harder."
I want to tip when I've been provided exceptional service. I don't really want you to make it harder for me to tip. Show me a study that says, making it harder to tip statistically results in higher wages, obviating the need to tip!
I don't want to have an awkward conversation where I ask the driver if it's acceptable to hand over cash as a tip, when all signs seem to be pointing to "no, tips are not considered a usual part of this exchange." I may want to leave a tip! The transaction is not a cash transaction, so exchanging cash is unusual. Now I have to carry cash to complete an otherwise totally digital transaction.
I expect a way to leave a tip as part of my transaction, if you don't want to leave one then don't leave one! Or, drive yourself!
Yep. I hate this compelled tipping we've got everywhere these days. How long until we're asked if we want to tip at the grocery store, or the gas pump?
Even if the cashier (at, say, retail location) says "feel free not to tip" that does little to make me feel less shamed.
Tipping should be for exemplary service, not routine service. That's why adding it to Uber is stupid: I expect fast pickup, nice drivers, and safe delivery to my destination for the price I pay. If I don't tip will it be an extra long drive? An extra long wait? Will I lose a limb along the way?
It'd be like being asked to tip at a fast food restaurant: I don't expect to have to tip to get my food fast, that's just part of the value proposition.
Uber just keeps driving nails in their own coffin!
Even if the cashier (at, say, retail location) says "feel free not to tip" that does little to make me feel less shamed.
Tipping should be for exemplary service, not routine service. That's why adding it to Uber is stupid: I expect fast pickup, nice drivers, and safe delivery to my destination for the price I pay. If I don't tip will it be an extra long drive? An extra long wait? Will I lose a limb along the way?
It'd be like being asked to tip at a fast food restaurant: I don't expect to have to tip to get my food fast, that's just part of the value proposition.
Uber just keeps driving nails in their own coffin!
I completely agree, this is a terrible move on uber's part.
That being said, if tipping is going to be part of the new model going forward I would at least want it to be anonymous. That is have the driver receive all of his/her tips in aggregate at the end of the pay cycle without knowing which passengers it came from. The driver can still determine if his overall service was, on average, financially valued by the drivers above the fare price but passengers don't have the same pressure to tip (blacklisted by drivers, bad reviews, etc) if they don't want to.
That being said, if tipping is going to be part of the new model going forward I would at least want it to be anonymous. That is have the driver receive all of his/her tips in aggregate at the end of the pay cycle without knowing which passengers it came from. The driver can still determine if his overall service was, on average, financially valued by the drivers above the fare price but passengers don't have the same pressure to tip (blacklisted by drivers, bad reviews, etc) if they don't want to.
I'm so surprised that so many people don't know that when Uber was first created, you had a tip selector in your profile that you could add a tip automatically to each ride.
I'm not sure how to feel about it too. While I will be tipping (when actually using Uber), after I initially wondered why Uber didn't allow tips I concluded that the drivers could become unfriendly about it. They are not yet aggressive about ratings here (South Africa), but I've heard horror stories from the US.
I agree completely. Not only woulld this all go away if they are paid better, but they would likely be more motivated and friendly.
I agree completely. Not only woulld this all go away if they are paid better, but they would likely be more motivated and friendly.
My rule of thumb with Lyft is that if the driver mentions giving them a good rating or tip, they get no tip. Directly asking for a tip (and thereby creating a guilt-ridden obligation) violates the implied social contract around tipping. (Think about other services where a tip is expected: it is rare for anyone to verbally mention a tip.)
When I used to use Uber, my policy was that if a driver asked for a tip, I would drop their rating by 1 or 2 stars, depending on how aggressive they were. This has only happened once. (A handful of other drivers had a tasteful tip jar; I found it annoying but chose not to penalize.)
When I used to use Uber, my policy was that if a driver asked for a tip, I would drop their rating by 1 or 2 stars, depending on how aggressive they were. This has only happened once. (A handful of other drivers had a tasteful tip jar; I found it annoying but chose not to penalize.)
Tip jars are never tasteful, putting a tip jar out is equivalent to panhandling, IMO. A business is a place for business transactions, not begging.
Eh, perhaps "tasteful" was the wrong word. I'm very anti-tipping overall (though will hold my nose and tip where appropriate, because that's just how things are), but I think, in a place where tips are expected, a tip jar is fine, as long as it's fairly unobtrusive and not in your face, and not verbally mentioned. Of course, until now, Uber was not a place where tipping was expected, so... sigh.
Good point, I understand what you mean now.
I can only assume that you have never worked in any industry in a customer service capacity. Tipping is a totally normal thing, that you are free to engage in or abstain from.
If you are especially pleased with a service on a particular occasion, then you should tip. If you are the type of person who is never pleased with anything, then you should certainly feel no obligation to tip, ever.
This whole exchange reminds me of an episode of Black Mirror.
* (edit: Then again, after reading some more of the impressions on this page, I think I may be privileged that I am in a relatively small midwestern city where Uber and Lyft both offer service. I have never been asked to tip, by any of the drivers I've used on either service. It sounds like that is far from the norm, at least in areas where HN users are.)
If you are especially pleased with a service on a particular occasion, then you should tip. If you are the type of person who is never pleased with anything, then you should certainly feel no obligation to tip, ever.
This whole exchange reminds me of an episode of Black Mirror.
* (edit: Then again, after reading some more of the impressions on this page, I think I may be privileged that I am in a relatively small midwestern city where Uber and Lyft both offer service. I have never been asked to tip, by any of the drivers I've used on either service. It sounds like that is far from the norm, at least in areas where HN users are.)
>I can only assume that you have never worked in any industry in a customer service capacity
Lol wut? Yes, I certainly have. I've worked no less than 4 customer service jobs.
>Tipping is a totally normal thing, that you are free to engage in or abstain from.
Only in the strictly legal sense, not the social sense.
>If you are especially pleased with a service on a particular occasion, then you should tip.
First off, tips for many service employees in the US are not "for exception service," they are "expected for any service."
I'd prefer to live in a society where employees give a pleasing service without expecting a bribe. I would prefer to live in a society where some customers are not snubbed because of the assumption they won't leave a tip, or will leave a small one. I also don't care to turn every single interaction I have throughout the day into a business transaction.
Not only that but you start with "you are free to engage in or abstain from [tips]" then say "you should tip." Which was is it? Completely optional or expected? You claim it's both.
>If you are the type of person who is never pleased with anything
Wow, way to project. I am pleased by pretty much any service as long as the job gets done semi-competently . I don't need anything "extra," or small talk, or even smiles. I have a massive amount of empathy for service employees who aren't property trained and if I have a bad experience I usually blame poor management, not the customer service employee personally. If the place is crowded I understand I'm going to have to wait, through nobody's fault, crowds can't always be anticipated.
Disliking tips is hardly the same thing as being a miserable person who is always unhappy. That's quite the stretch.
>you should certainly feel no obligation to tip, ever.
I am not such an asshole to believe that someone who doesn't smile or is working short staffed deserves to have their pay docked. That's cruel.
The thing about introducing tips is they become "mandatory," because employees and management come to expect tips. This brings down salaries then everyone is guilted into leaving tips. It's no secret that Uber is ruthlessly cutting fairs and now they are basically saying "we expect customers to make up the difference."
Anyways, my comments were not about tipping in general, they were about tip jars, specially. Tip jars are begging and are no different than panhandling. It's a form of guilt tipping(1) and are always distasteful. A business is no place for employees to beg - save that for the streets.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/advice/2016/05/01/tipp...
"If you don't pay up, you're shamed for your lack of generosity, at best — or at worst, for stealing someone's salary."
And, of course,
"He started rattling about how far the cab ride was and how he needed more," she says. "It turned me off. I use Uber now."
Lol wut? Yes, I certainly have. I've worked no less than 4 customer service jobs.
>Tipping is a totally normal thing, that you are free to engage in or abstain from.
Only in the strictly legal sense, not the social sense.
>If you are especially pleased with a service on a particular occasion, then you should tip.
First off, tips for many service employees in the US are not "for exception service," they are "expected for any service."
I'd prefer to live in a society where employees give a pleasing service without expecting a bribe. I would prefer to live in a society where some customers are not snubbed because of the assumption they won't leave a tip, or will leave a small one. I also don't care to turn every single interaction I have throughout the day into a business transaction.
Not only that but you start with "you are free to engage in or abstain from [tips]" then say "you should tip." Which was is it? Completely optional or expected? You claim it's both.
>If you are the type of person who is never pleased with anything
Wow, way to project. I am pleased by pretty much any service as long as the job gets done semi-competently . I don't need anything "extra," or small talk, or even smiles. I have a massive amount of empathy for service employees who aren't property trained and if I have a bad experience I usually blame poor management, not the customer service employee personally. If the place is crowded I understand I'm going to have to wait, through nobody's fault, crowds can't always be anticipated.
Disliking tips is hardly the same thing as being a miserable person who is always unhappy. That's quite the stretch.
>you should certainly feel no obligation to tip, ever.
I am not such an asshole to believe that someone who doesn't smile or is working short staffed deserves to have their pay docked. That's cruel.
The thing about introducing tips is they become "mandatory," because employees and management come to expect tips. This brings down salaries then everyone is guilted into leaving tips. It's no secret that Uber is ruthlessly cutting fairs and now they are basically saying "we expect customers to make up the difference."
Anyways, my comments were not about tipping in general, they were about tip jars, specially. Tip jars are begging and are no different than panhandling. It's a form of guilt tipping(1) and are always distasteful. A business is no place for employees to beg - save that for the streets.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/advice/2016/05/01/tipp...
"If you don't pay up, you're shamed for your lack of generosity, at best — or at worst, for stealing someone's salary."
And, of course,
"He started rattling about how far the cab ride was and how he needed more," she says. "It turned me off. I use Uber now."
> you start with "you are free to engage in or abstain from [tips]" then say "you should tip." Which was is it? Completely optional or expected? You claim it's both.
I think this was clear, until you removed the context. I think you should tip, I expect to leave a tip. I expect service employees to get a tip. I would tend to avoid service establishments altogether, if I thought I could not afford to leave a tip.
But! I'm not going to report you to someone if I noticed you used a service and you don't tip! It will go into my mental calculus of who you are. Generosity begets generosity. You've explained your principled stance and I respect that belief that tipping depresses service wages overall.
I'm not sure I agree. I'm sure it's a fact, but I'm not sure it's a step forward to simply eschew tipping. I'm certainly not going to go as far as to say that it is your moral obligation to tip, or even to generally be charitable to people of "lower standing" (not only because I don't like the implication that people with certain job types must have a lower standing, but also because it is a principled stance that I understand on some level, and I can respect that.)
If your main issue is with tip jars and the fact that you find them distasteful though, then certainly I think it's going to be true that you would see fewer of them if the infrastructure is built to support tipping. I want a way to tip my driver, and I will be looking for the jar if the infrastructure is not in place to support it.
If it causes you some degree of anguish to disregard a physical tip jar, surely it will be easier to disregard a digital notification prompting you for feedback and/or tips. I would be off-put if I had to go through an awkward exchange asking whether the driver can accept a cash tip, whenever I feel like rewarding exceptional service. Because, to me, it just sounds like you don't want to look at the tip jar and you don't want to look at the tip button.
I think this was clear, until you removed the context. I think you should tip, I expect to leave a tip. I expect service employees to get a tip. I would tend to avoid service establishments altogether, if I thought I could not afford to leave a tip.
But! I'm not going to report you to someone if I noticed you used a service and you don't tip! It will go into my mental calculus of who you are. Generosity begets generosity. You've explained your principled stance and I respect that belief that tipping depresses service wages overall.
I'm not sure I agree. I'm sure it's a fact, but I'm not sure it's a step forward to simply eschew tipping. I'm certainly not going to go as far as to say that it is your moral obligation to tip, or even to generally be charitable to people of "lower standing" (not only because I don't like the implication that people with certain job types must have a lower standing, but also because it is a principled stance that I understand on some level, and I can respect that.)
If your main issue is with tip jars and the fact that you find them distasteful though, then certainly I think it's going to be true that you would see fewer of them if the infrastructure is built to support tipping. I want a way to tip my driver, and I will be looking for the jar if the infrastructure is not in place to support it.
If it causes you some degree of anguish to disregard a physical tip jar, surely it will be easier to disregard a digital notification prompting you for feedback and/or tips. I would be off-put if I had to go through an awkward exchange asking whether the driver can accept a cash tip, whenever I feel like rewarding exceptional service. Because, to me, it just sounds like you don't want to look at the tip jar and you don't want to look at the tip button.
So basically you're saying "tipping is optional, but if you don't, I'm going to think less of you as a person". Which is the same thing as saying "if you want to live in 'polite' society, tipping is required".
The problem is that when you see someone not tipping, you have no idea why. Perhaps that person received horrifyingly bad service. Perhaps that person is morally opposed to the practice. Or perhaps that person is just a cheapskate. You don't know, and putting that into your "mental calculus" is just you projecting your own feelings onto a situation for which you have very little factual information.
I'm not picking on you in particular; the majority of people in the US behave exactly the same way. And that's why tipping is mandatory, never optional.
The problem is that when you see someone not tipping, you have no idea why. Perhaps that person received horrifyingly bad service. Perhaps that person is morally opposed to the practice. Or perhaps that person is just a cheapskate. You don't know, and putting that into your "mental calculus" is just you projecting your own feelings onto a situation for which you have very little factual information.
I'm not picking on you in particular; the majority of people in the US behave exactly the same way. And that's why tipping is mandatory, never optional.
> "mental calculus" is just you projecting your own feelings onto a situation for which you have very little factual information
That's exactly what mental calculus is. When I'm in a normal state of mind, "was the service any good" and "does this person have the money to tip" are also part of the mental calculus applied when I notice you didn't tip.
> I'm going to think less of you as a person
Maybe so. Vanishingly so (that's why it's calculus) depending on the scope of our interaction. If you are a person on the street who I noticed didn't tip the hot dog vendor, I'm likely not even doing this mental calculus at all, unless you've done something else to attract my attention.
If you're my boss, and I casually observe you not tipping on a regular basis, sure it's going to affect my opinion of you.
(If you are the owner of the company where I work and I notice you suddenly have a habit of not tipping, I'm likely to take it as a signal that maybe business is not so good!)
That's exactly what mental calculus is. When I'm in a normal state of mind, "was the service any good" and "does this person have the money to tip" are also part of the mental calculus applied when I notice you didn't tip.
> I'm going to think less of you as a person
Maybe so. Vanishingly so (that's why it's calculus) depending on the scope of our interaction. If you are a person on the street who I noticed didn't tip the hot dog vendor, I'm likely not even doing this mental calculus at all, unless you've done something else to attract my attention.
If you're my boss, and I casually observe you not tipping on a regular basis, sure it's going to affect my opinion of you.
(If you are the owner of the company where I work and I notice you suddenly have a habit of not tipping, I'm likely to take it as a signal that maybe business is not so good!)
I don't know man, it seems clearer and clearer that we just come from different places. Nothing against you or wherever you come from.
I was raised to tip service employees in general, if you can, if they have to bring you something... and to tip more if they keep my glass of water full (I tend to drink a lot of water), so it just seems natural to me to tip.
I don't think it's just (though it is a fact) that wages are reduced because "wages don't need to be so high, because of tips." I have worked service industry jobs where I was not tipped, and I'm so glad I don't have to do that kind of work anymore. I would not be any more enthusiastic about those jobs if I was tipped. It wasn't satisfying work for me, and I have a hard time believing it would be for anyone else, but I try not to wear that on my sleeve.
Not everyone gets the chances I got! Not everyone would like my job as much as I do, either. I am very sympathetic to the idea that you shouldn't make every interaction into a business transaction, but in this case you have to recognize that it is what it is.
You are getting into someone's car and they are taking your pittance, minus their service broker's fee, to bring you where you need to go. That is a business transaction, and it's in the class of transactions that I would expect to involve a tip. That's just how I was raised. I understand if you do this five or six times a week, you may not want to interact with these people any more than you have to so you can get where you need to be and get on with your life, but I do it less frequently and I am just as happy not to ride in silence!
If you do this job in your off hours, and you work in maintenance at a corndog factory for your regular job, I actually want to hear about that. I will strike up a conversation if the driver seems willing.
I don't come from a place where people routinely complain about not getting tipped though. (If you hear someone complain about a tip, I tend to assume the service was also poor, and they earned exactly the tip they got! Some people are assholes, but not most people.)
I think of Uber and Lyft as an exceedingly cheap way to get around. In bigger cities I've visited, it seems like it's more of "a somewhat competitively priced way to get around that's marginally more convenient than public transit options, sometimes. And often cheaper than parking if you were thinking about driving yourself." Where I live and where I come from, parking is almost always free, and public transit is almost never an option. (Buses are the only public option, unless you're going out of town -- then there's Amtrak -- and the buses are significantly less convenient than they once were, since schedules and routes have been drastically reduced in recent years. There is no subway. Cabs-for-hire tend to be outrageously priced.)
Where I lived before Northern Indiana (now), was in Western New York, we didn't even have Uber at all and you couldn't really get a cab ride for under $30. Get on the bus. I don't know if it was an economic decision for Uber or a regulatory issue, but I don't know how anyone honestly can live there without a car. I did it for a few years of college and a year after that which I spent mostly too broke to afford a car or insurance payments, and it wasn't easy. (On the other hand I will admit I was in much better shape then!)
I was raised to tip service employees in general, if you can, if they have to bring you something... and to tip more if they keep my glass of water full (I tend to drink a lot of water), so it just seems natural to me to tip.
I don't think it's just (though it is a fact) that wages are reduced because "wages don't need to be so high, because of tips." I have worked service industry jobs where I was not tipped, and I'm so glad I don't have to do that kind of work anymore. I would not be any more enthusiastic about those jobs if I was tipped. It wasn't satisfying work for me, and I have a hard time believing it would be for anyone else, but I try not to wear that on my sleeve.
Not everyone gets the chances I got! Not everyone would like my job as much as I do, either. I am very sympathetic to the idea that you shouldn't make every interaction into a business transaction, but in this case you have to recognize that it is what it is.
You are getting into someone's car and they are taking your pittance, minus their service broker's fee, to bring you where you need to go. That is a business transaction, and it's in the class of transactions that I would expect to involve a tip. That's just how I was raised. I understand if you do this five or six times a week, you may not want to interact with these people any more than you have to so you can get where you need to be and get on with your life, but I do it less frequently and I am just as happy not to ride in silence!
If you do this job in your off hours, and you work in maintenance at a corndog factory for your regular job, I actually want to hear about that. I will strike up a conversation if the driver seems willing.
I don't come from a place where people routinely complain about not getting tipped though. (If you hear someone complain about a tip, I tend to assume the service was also poor, and they earned exactly the tip they got! Some people are assholes, but not most people.)
I think of Uber and Lyft as an exceedingly cheap way to get around. In bigger cities I've visited, it seems like it's more of "a somewhat competitively priced way to get around that's marginally more convenient than public transit options, sometimes. And often cheaper than parking if you were thinking about driving yourself." Where I live and where I come from, parking is almost always free, and public transit is almost never an option. (Buses are the only public option, unless you're going out of town -- then there's Amtrak -- and the buses are significantly less convenient than they once were, since schedules and routes have been drastically reduced in recent years. There is no subway. Cabs-for-hire tend to be outrageously priced.)
Where I lived before Northern Indiana (now), was in Western New York, we didn't even have Uber at all and you couldn't really get a cab ride for under $30. Get on the bus. I don't know if it was an economic decision for Uber or a regulatory issue, but I don't know how anyone honestly can live there without a car. I did it for a few years of college and a year after that which I spent mostly too broke to afford a car or insurance payments, and it wasn't easy. (On the other hand I will admit I was in much better shape then!)
I tip the same even if they don't keep my water glass full. I don't believe such a minor "annoyance" as asking for more water (which its not an annoyance) requires a dock in pay. Also, in California they are required by law to wait until you ask for water due to the drought!
>You are getting into someone's car and they are taking your pittance, minus their service broker's fee, to bring you where you need to go. That is a business transaction, and it's in the class of transactions that I would expect to involve a tip.
My transaction is between Uber and I and should not be between Uber's employees and I. Do you tip your bus driver? Do you tip the train conductor?
Do you also tip your mechanic if they get your car fixed before schedule? How about the pulmonologist when you get blood drawn? Or is it only if they don't leave a bruise? How about the person who stocked the shelves so the thing you want to buy is in stock? What if an employee goes in the stockroom for you? Do you pull out a $5? What about the person who makes your sandwich at a deli, I mean, making custom sandwiches are labor intensive.
>That's just how I was raised
Sure but...
You can (and should) acknowledge that it is completely arbitrary and cultural. If I go to the bar and order a soda I tip. If I go to McDs and order a soda I don't. That's silly. The thing that really kills me is, I've been to a few wineries. When I pay there's never a line to put my tip on the credit card receipt, so I don't tip. I guess you don't tip in wineries even though they provide you basically the same service as a restaurant or bar and you tip there. The best part though is I also go to breweries and breweries always have a tip line on the receipt! Serving beer where you make it = tip, serving wine where you make it = no tip. MADNESS!
>I tend to assume the service was also poor, and they earned exactly the tip they got!
99.9% of the time poor service is not personally the customer service employee's fault.
I actually really enjoyed my job in fast food. The pay sucked but the work was fine, my coworkers were pleasant, and the restaurant was very well run. The customers were pleasant too because we provided good service. We provided good service because the management gave us the tools to provide good service and expected us to provide good service.
>You are getting into someone's car and they are taking your pittance, minus their service broker's fee, to bring you where you need to go. That is a business transaction, and it's in the class of transactions that I would expect to involve a tip.
My transaction is between Uber and I and should not be between Uber's employees and I. Do you tip your bus driver? Do you tip the train conductor?
Do you also tip your mechanic if they get your car fixed before schedule? How about the pulmonologist when you get blood drawn? Or is it only if they don't leave a bruise? How about the person who stocked the shelves so the thing you want to buy is in stock? What if an employee goes in the stockroom for you? Do you pull out a $5? What about the person who makes your sandwich at a deli, I mean, making custom sandwiches are labor intensive.
>That's just how I was raised
Sure but...
You can (and should) acknowledge that it is completely arbitrary and cultural. If I go to the bar and order a soda I tip. If I go to McDs and order a soda I don't. That's silly. The thing that really kills me is, I've been to a few wineries. When I pay there's never a line to put my tip on the credit card receipt, so I don't tip. I guess you don't tip in wineries even though they provide you basically the same service as a restaurant or bar and you tip there. The best part though is I also go to breweries and breweries always have a tip line on the receipt! Serving beer where you make it = tip, serving wine where you make it = no tip. MADNESS!
>I tend to assume the service was also poor, and they earned exactly the tip they got!
99.9% of the time poor service is not personally the customer service employee's fault.
I actually really enjoyed my job in fast food. The pay sucked but the work was fine, my coworkers were pleasant, and the restaurant was very well run. The customers were pleasant too because we provided good service. We provided good service because the management gave us the tools to provide good service and expected us to provide good service.
> >I tend to assume the service was also poor, and they earned exactly the tip they got!
> 99.9% of the time poor service is not personally the customer service employee's fault.
"If you hear someone complain about a tip" is the important context that you removed. Maybe the employer is responsible to train the CSR that you should not complain about tips, or lack of tips... I don't think so. I think your parents should teach you that. I think it's common sense. If you got a tip, you should not complain about it. I don't think that 0.01% of people _complaining about_ their tips to the customers are responsible for it. That's nonsense.
If you did not get a tip, you should not complain about it to the customers! If you are regularly complaining about your tips, or lack of tips, it is a sign that you are providing bad service, and you should improve. If there is a systematic issue, you are understaffed, the kitchen staff sucks, etc... I can concede it's not your fault, but it is going to result in a statistically significant hit to your tips, and you should see if you can get them to improve.
If I ask for a sandwich without tomato and you bring me a sandwich with tomato, the same person who complains about having to make the sandwich again because they got the order wrong, is the person who complains about their tips. The one whose service is habitually bad, because of their attitude.
> 99.9% of the time poor service is not personally the customer service employee's fault.
"If you hear someone complain about a tip" is the important context that you removed. Maybe the employer is responsible to train the CSR that you should not complain about tips, or lack of tips... I don't think so. I think your parents should teach you that. I think it's common sense. If you got a tip, you should not complain about it. I don't think that 0.01% of people _complaining about_ their tips to the customers are responsible for it. That's nonsense.
If you did not get a tip, you should not complain about it to the customers! If you are regularly complaining about your tips, or lack of tips, it is a sign that you are providing bad service, and you should improve. If there is a systematic issue, you are understaffed, the kitchen staff sucks, etc... I can concede it's not your fault, but it is going to result in a statistically significant hit to your tips, and you should see if you can get them to improve.
If I ask for a sandwich without tomato and you bring me a sandwich with tomato, the same person who complains about having to make the sandwich again because they got the order wrong, is the person who complains about their tips. The one whose service is habitually bad, because of their attitude.
> Also, in California they are required by law to wait until you ask for water due to the drought!
The more you know... I assumed you were in California, but not because of my perception of your attitudes, just because this is HN and a vanishing proportion of people here I think are not from Bay area.
Thanks for engaging me here. I certainly don't tip my mechanic or my nurse's aide, but next time I'm getting blood drawn, I'm going to remember this conversation.
It is absolutely cultural, and it is arbitrary. I also don't know why I would tip more if the beer simply costs more. I tend to tip bartenders somewhere between $1/trip and $1/drink. This is a completely arbitrary standard, that I set with no review by anyone, and adhere to sometimes, depending on the number of "ones" I happen to have on my person at the time.
> I tip the same even if they don't keep my water glass full. I don't believe such a minor "annoyance" as asking for more water (which its not an annoyance) requires a dock in pay.
I don't mind having to ask for water, but I do notice when a server has a habit of showing up at my table just as my glass has been emptied. I consider it exceptional service when I can see there's also a lot of traffic, and yet my glass remains filled. I also notice if a long time passes and I don't see my server, and doubly so when my glass has already been empty for a while. You have to set the bar somehow!
> My transaction is between Uber and I and should not be between Uber's employees and I
That's a principled stance that I understand on some level, however I could not make this distinction in my own personal life. If it is factually true that Uber treats the drivers as full employees, then it is a fact that has only recently been settled as a matter of law. The bus driver and the train conductor are equally worthy of my gratitude, but they don't have a tip jar. The mechanic and the nurse's aide are great examples of how arbitrarily we draw the line, too. Thanks again for engaging.
The more you know... I assumed you were in California, but not because of my perception of your attitudes, just because this is HN and a vanishing proportion of people here I think are not from Bay area.
Thanks for engaging me here. I certainly don't tip my mechanic or my nurse's aide, but next time I'm getting blood drawn, I'm going to remember this conversation.
It is absolutely cultural, and it is arbitrary. I also don't know why I would tip more if the beer simply costs more. I tend to tip bartenders somewhere between $1/trip and $1/drink. This is a completely arbitrary standard, that I set with no review by anyone, and adhere to sometimes, depending on the number of "ones" I happen to have on my person at the time.
> I tip the same even if they don't keep my water glass full. I don't believe such a minor "annoyance" as asking for more water (which its not an annoyance) requires a dock in pay.
I don't mind having to ask for water, but I do notice when a server has a habit of showing up at my table just as my glass has been emptied. I consider it exceptional service when I can see there's also a lot of traffic, and yet my glass remains filled. I also notice if a long time passes and I don't see my server, and doubly so when my glass has already been empty for a while. You have to set the bar somehow!
> My transaction is between Uber and I and should not be between Uber's employees and I
That's a principled stance that I understand on some level, however I could not make this distinction in my own personal life. If it is factually true that Uber treats the drivers as full employees, then it is a fact that has only recently been settled as a matter of law. The bus driver and the train conductor are equally worthy of my gratitude, but they don't have a tip jar. The mechanic and the nurse's aide are great examples of how arbitrarily we draw the line, too. Thanks again for engaging.
> What if instead of all these nitpicking changes, they kept the fares a bit higher and simply paid the drivers a bit more?
Drivers would still yearn and push for tips.
It's an established industry practice and drivers assume that most people will tip if asked, so by not asking they are leaving money on the table.
Drivers would still yearn and push for tips.
It's an established industry practice and drivers assume that most people will tip if asked, so by not asking they are leaving money on the table.
It's really unfortunate how that is the case in the US particularly. I moved to Japan and was shocked at how the service is in Japan compared to the states (particularly restaurants). All the employees work hard to please customers because that's what they're paid to do (and often less than the SF bay area where I'm from). Going back to the US I can feel waiters/waitresses trying to please me to get higher tips or just essentially pretend I don't exist if they think I won't tip well. This arose once when I was playing poker in a casino and only one of the 3 people who ordered drinks tipped. The lady never came back (45 minutes) after that and when the player asked in an agitated voice he was kicked out of the game.
The reason that Japan and the US act differently is not due to tips but due to culture. In the US if there's some kind of issue that person will likely complain but unless it's egregious they probably will return to wherever it happened. In Japan, however, generally one mistake costs the business that customer forever without the customer complaining directly about it. Additionally, remember that it's not the employee's fault that there are tips, it's the employers and the US society that expects it (consider restaurants that removed tips often bring them back) and the employee is just working within that construct.
I'm just not going to use this option in the app. There seems to be absolutely zero downside to not doing it, and multiple downsides to using it.
If you don't tip, drivers may give a lower rating. I have seen such comments in /r/uberdrivers. I recently paid a good amount as tip in the hope of increasing my rating after I found my score was 4.7. Other than not tipping, I haven't done anything to be a bad passenger as far as I know.
Do you mean you won't tip in the app, or you just won't tip?
I've never tipped Uber drivers(it would be extremely weird giving the uber driver cash if the payment for the fare is done through my account, do other people tip their uber drivers?), and will continue not doing so - will just ignore the option in the app. I do tip in other industries and situations.
I try to use Lyft, but have used Uber before and yes, I tipped with cash.
I don't think raising the fares would have any impact in the drivers' desire to have a tip option. Tips are free money and widely acceptable in the US, so who wouldn't want that.
Since Uber lost a recent lawsuit wrt tipping, I've been on multiple rides where the driver has a tip jar. So I much prefer the in-app tipping compared to having a physical tip jar in the car.
Since Uber lost a recent lawsuit wrt tipping, I've been on multiple rides where the driver has a tip jar. So I much prefer the in-app tipping compared to having a physical tip jar in the car.
>Tips are free money and widely acceptable in the US, so who wouldn't want that.
Tips are not "free money," they drive down salary thus they move compensation from the employer's responsibility to the responsibility of the customer. The more tips you get the less you get paid.
Tips are not "free money," they drive down salary thus they move compensation from the employer's responsibility to the responsibility of the customer. The more tips you get the less you get paid.
This new direction is backwards.
Pay the drivers what they are worth. How hard is that? Seriously. How hard is it to just give an honest wage for honest work?
WashPo: "[Uber] recast itself as a company with a conscience and a heart."
Correction: Uber is passing the conscience and heart part onto its users so that it doesn't have to. Now I am going to feeling like jerk when I don't give someone a tip. That was my favorite part about uber. Don't make think about taxes and tip. How silly would it be if Uber was a restaurant? WashPo: "Restaurant shows magninimity by allowing patrons to supplement the low wages of the restaurant with a tip of their own!" Progress.
Pay the drivers what they are worth. How hard is that? Seriously. How hard is it to just give an honest wage for honest work?
WashPo: "[Uber] recast itself as a company with a conscience and a heart."
Correction: Uber is passing the conscience and heart part onto its users so that it doesn't have to. Now I am going to feeling like jerk when I don't give someone a tip. That was my favorite part about uber. Don't make think about taxes and tip. How silly would it be if Uber was a restaurant? WashPo: "Restaurant shows magninimity by allowing patrons to supplement the low wages of the restaurant with a tip of their own!" Progress.
For Uber's price structure -- very hard. Uber's "farebox recovery" is a lower percentage than most public transit agencies.
Why not just raise the prices a bit again? Now I'm worried I'll get down-starred for not tipping on Uber, which is just kind of annoying. I feel like not requiring a tip is Uber's biggest differentiator
You answered your own question. Why raise prices and risk losing customers when they can just use widely accepted social pressure to coerce you into subsidizing their cost of doing business for free?
It's not like they're fooling anyone though...regular users of uber will know the average outlay from using an uber is $X, whether it's through the fares charged or a lower fare plus expected tip. I would much rather have a higher fare than the stress of figuring out how much to tip. I could just decide on a tip to always give, but what about those times when the service is really shitty? Do I "get back" at them by leaving no tip? Isn't that the whole purpose of the tipping process? But that makes me feel like a shitty person, and the cognitive outlay in thinking about all of this is just annoying.
I'm gonna guess they'll keep the tips secret until many hours after the journey (and when both driver and passenger have left star ratings). They might even aggregate tips for the week/month.
That way, if you leave no tip, it can't come back and bite you.
That way, if you leave no tip, it can't come back and bite you.
But it will come back to bite me in a psychological way. I don't want to feel like the sort of person who doesn't tip when tipping is expected, I want to use a service where I don't have to think about tipping and can feel like a decent person. If that service has to cost more then so be it.
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It would make drivers experience worse if they aggregated tips over weeks/months. This is primarily due to the "cash me out" feature where drivers may cash out a shift immediately upon completion.
That is the best and most fair solution. You only find out your tip AFTER you've rated the passenger.
This is the reason I refused to use Amazon Fresh. I'd rather pay higher subscription prices like with Prime as opposed to tipping every delivery. Even if it's optional, just the existence of the tipping feature adds social pressure.
Last I checked for Amazon Prime Now, drivers are only aware of their tips in aggregate, so leaving $0 is putting pressure on Amazon to pay their drivers more. It's kindof shitty, and I don't use the service often, but if Amazon is going to give me an option on who is going to foot the bill for the driver, I will pass on that every time.
I'm aware of that, and personally it doesn't matter. It only lessens the social pressure. It doesn't eliminate it.
Yeah, exactly. This doesn't cost them anything. If they add a button to add 10%/15%/20%, people will still just tap that instead of try to hail a cab.
For the same reason Uber originally went with the tip-free model for their service?
I can only assume that was when they could more easily afford to do so.
Nothing to do with affording, and everything to do with the latent demand from people who don't want to have to think about or handle tipping when getting a ride, which was (at least a big part of) their original appeal.
I actually think it was the attract customers.
Widely despised social pressure.
Doesn't matter if it's despised as long as it's accepted.
Edit: To be clear, I am speaking from Uber's perspective.
Edit: To be clear, I am speaking from Uber's perspective.
I despise how little drivers are paid. This is also accepted. What's your point?
My point is Uber doesn't care about what you despise so long as it serves their bottom line.
Right—but clearly they do.
Uber is going to use tipping as excuse to lower payouts to drivers.
If drivers get 80% of the fare now, they'll get 70% of the fare in a couple months because Uber will argue that drivers get tips now, which more than compensate for that loss.
If drivers get 80% of the fare now, they'll get 70% of the fare in a couple months because Uber will argue that drivers get tips now, which more than compensate for that loss.
fyi this is what Lyft is already doing
Right Lyft already do this but there is no pressure because you don't have to tip right away. You get off and think about it.
I was a Lyft driver for one summer. Also Lyft supposely paid more.
Uber never encourage tipping and they didn't care about their driver at all. Their CEO was on the record for this.
I chose Lyft because they were more friendly and they didn't treat their worker like dirt.
I wouldn't ride an Uber or work for uber unless I really really have to. Most of the time I use Lyft for rides.
It's a crap managed company, threat their female co worker like Donald's locker room talk.
They threat their worker like crap. They did some really unfair things against Lyft. Including massive call on Lyft rides and then canceling it. They spy on their rival Lyft drivers. And they tried to steal Google's autonomous car tech.
They got greedy with their expansion too.
I was a Lyft driver for one summer. Also Lyft supposely paid more.
Uber never encourage tipping and they didn't care about their driver at all. Their CEO was on the record for this.
I chose Lyft because they were more friendly and they didn't treat their worker like dirt.
I wouldn't ride an Uber or work for uber unless I really really have to. Most of the time I use Lyft for rides.
It's a crap managed company, threat their female co worker like Donald's locker room talk.
They threat their worker like crap. They did some really unfair things against Lyft. Including massive call on Lyft rides and then canceling it. They spy on their rival Lyft drivers. And they tried to steal Google's autonomous car tech.
They got greedy with their expansion too.
" Riders will be asked whether they would like to leave a tip when rating their driver at the end of a trip." So exactly same as Lyft. Also do not forget Lyft would not exist without uber doing most of the "shady" work they did to get around and eventually change regulations which helped ride-sharing companies to operate .
And hell, Lyft has done plenty of shady stuff, too. They're just quiet about it and have a better PR department, and have branded themselves in a much more sympathetic way.
I don't know if their PR department is better, I think it is just that Lyft got lucky that the media, pundits, and commenters like us tend use "Uber" as a catchall for ride-sharing. Maybe it's a "first to market" curse for Uber.
It's kind of like how tech shuttles get labeled "Google Buses" even though Facebook, Yahoo, Linkedin, Microsoft, etc, also have hundreds of buses. But colloquially, all white busses are "Google Buses"
It's kind of like how tech shuttles get labeled "Google Buses" even though Facebook, Yahoo, Linkedin, Microsoft, etc, also have hundreds of buses. But colloquially, all white busses are "Google Buses"
I'd expect the driver software to let the driver rate the passenger before being shown the tip amount. Often times, I'll tip lyft drivers the next day or even the next time I open the lyft app.
The way Uber works now is it incentivizes the driver to give you a poor rating if you don't tip. By including the tip functionality in the app, and preventing the driver from seeing the tip before you are rated, it will remove this incentive.
I don't like tipping either but Uber had to do this and I'm confident the data showed it.
I don't like tipping either but Uber had to do this and I'm confident the data showed it.
I used to tip in cash to avoid the bad rating especially if I am travelling to airport and have heavy luggage. I hate carrying cash and this is a very welcoming change. Anything that would make them look less evil(Although i don't think they are any worse than most companies.) is a good PR move.
I have literally never given an Uber driver a tip -- and have used them for many, many airport trips, and overall have easily taken more than a thousand rides since I joined in early 2012 -- and my rating is currently 4.87.
Perhaps you live in a market where Uber drivers are aggressive about asking for tips, though, which is not the case in SF.
Perhaps you live in a market where Uber drivers are aggressive about asking for tips, though, which is not the case in SF.
They will probably take some "handling fee" on the value of the tips.
It'll form an income stream.
It'll form an income stream.
The article says they aren't (just like Lyft doesn't):
>Uber won’t take any part of the tips given drivers.[1]
IIRC, it would also be legally dubious to do so.
[1] And for the record, I prefer this phrasing to the more common "Drivers keep 100% of tips", which is not true unless they're evading taxes.
>Uber won’t take any part of the tips given drivers.[1]
IIRC, it would also be legally dubious to do so.
[1] And for the record, I prefer this phrasing to the more common "Drivers keep 100% of tips", which is not true unless they're evading taxes.
I'm a bit jaded on this subject, but even not-profit dollars contribute to revenue dollars, which helps secure future funding. So not "not any part of the tips", just a complicated hedging game on those tips.
What makes you think your lack of tip doesn't impact your rating now? The few Uber drivers I know expect a tip.
> The few Uber drivers I know expect a tip.
I think this varies a lot by city. I don't know if you're in San Francisco, but it's never been my experience here that drivers expect a tip. But when I fly down to Las Vegas nearly all the Ubers I've taken have notes taped up in the back stating the driver expects to be tipped (in cash).
I think this varies a lot by city. I don't know if you're in San Francisco, but it's never been my experience here that drivers expect a tip. But when I fly down to Las Vegas nearly all the Ubers I've taken have notes taped up in the back stating the driver expects to be tipped (in cash).
"all the Ubers I've taken have notes taped up in the back stating the driver expects to be tipped (in cash)."
It would annoy me to no end, and I would be surprised if Uber would have been cool with that before now.
It would annoy me to no end, and I would be surprised if Uber would have been cool with that before now.
When was this? I spent a week in Vegas in March and according to my records, 27 Uber trips. I don't recall seeing anything like that, at all.
I spent a week there in december, and I saw a few that did have signs like that.
I suspect a lot of that has to do with culture. Consider how differently you might expect these three people who are expecting a tip to behave: an Italian from New Jersey, a middle class hipster in LA, and an illegal immigrant driving under an Uber account they share with a legal worker.
I'm more curious what happens when they walk into a bar...
it absolutely does. Since the last rate cuts I rate lower for no tip. at 1.80/mile and 30c/ minute I felt I was paid
fairly. at 1.55/mile it was still okay. At .85/ mile. no, there should be a tip.
I have never left a tip with an Uber driver, I've taken around 30 rides, 5 star rating.
Of course, you'll get rated lower if you don't tip. You'll probably get 1 star every time. I would much prefer they just raise the prices a bit.
I'd doubt they can see if you didn't tip before you rated them. That would be incredibly stupid.
If you're a frequent customer of a certain driver and consistently don't tip then I can see some problems there.
If you're a frequent customer of a certain driver and consistently don't tip then I can see some problems there.
I deleted Uber and installed Lyft after riding in a car in Portland where the driver had discreetly tucked a dollar bill in the console as a tacit cue to tip. I hate tipping. I avoid situations where I have to tip, or get pressured to tip.
I don't get your point. With lyft you are explicitly asked to tip. But delete uber anyways because of one bad driver; sounds like a fair argument. /s
Note that deleting the app isn't enough. You should also explicitly close your Uber account.
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I think ultimately this is a good thing. If this gives drivers a bigger incentive to use Uber, that will translate to more drivers on the road, and lower surge pricing for riders.
Drivers will rate first before seeing tipping information.
What if they had a default auto-tip you could set? And then if you had an exceptionally good or bad ride you could adjust for that case.
Well, there goes my last reason for using Uber. I had been really excited that they were the one oasis pushing back against the tipping culture[1].
Particularly troubling is the framing:
>Uber is enabling passengers to tip its U.S. drivers with a tap on its ride-hailing app for the first time, part of a push to recast itself as a company with a conscience and a heart.
What? As if anyone preferring that a service be upfront about prices is "heartless"? Anyone who doesn't want tip jars at the grocery store checkstand or bus farebox is heartless? All of Europe and Asia are heartless?
As if all of the alternatives for increasing driver compensation are heartless? (Higher payouts or the Sidecar drivers-set-prices model.)
[1] Before anyone says it, yes I know you have to pay more for a tip-free service; I'm not an idiot. I'm fine with that. I'm not fine with the lack of consistent, clear, compatible expectations it involves, and being stuck in the position of either a) overpaying, b) making a silent faux pas, or c) having negative feedback misinterpreted as stinginess.
Particularly troubling is the framing:
>Uber is enabling passengers to tip its U.S. drivers with a tap on its ride-hailing app for the first time, part of a push to recast itself as a company with a conscience and a heart.
What? As if anyone preferring that a service be upfront about prices is "heartless"? Anyone who doesn't want tip jars at the grocery store checkstand or bus farebox is heartless? All of Europe and Asia are heartless?
As if all of the alternatives for increasing driver compensation are heartless? (Higher payouts or the Sidecar drivers-set-prices model.)
[1] Before anyone says it, yes I know you have to pay more for a tip-free service; I'm not an idiot. I'm fine with that. I'm not fine with the lack of consistent, clear, compatible expectations it involves, and being stuck in the position of either a) overpaying, b) making a silent faux pas, or c) having negative feedback misinterpreted as stinginess.
Yeah, all the tipping advocates are probably not aware that most countries don't have tipping. Restaurant staff are paid according to local wages. So a racial minority won't be paid less than someone from the majority race. European and Australian restaurant staff aren't depending on arbitrary tips. They know exactly what they are going to make at the beginning of their shift. They don't feel like they're working for peanuts for rolling napkins or putting chairs on tables.
It's probably not a bad idea to just select the $0 option when the tip screen shows up... until drivers start insisting on seeing you enter your tip before awarding your 5-star rating.
It's probably not a bad idea to just select the $0 option when the tip screen shows up... until drivers start insisting on seeing you enter your tip before awarding your 5-star rating.
> until drivers start insisting on seeing you enter your tip before awarding your 5-star rating.
If any driver did that to me, I would give them a 1-star rating, no tip, and immediately report them to Uber's customer support.
If any driver did that to me, I would give them a 1-star rating, no tip, and immediately report them to Uber's customer support.
I think most restaurant staff split tips, so no one will be paid less than anyone else if they get low tips.
I don't know what percentage of restaurants do that. From my anecdata, few restaurants do it. Also, California law prohibits it.
It is sad that companies like Uber are being pressured into making these stupid decisions because of "social justice".
For me the main benefit of using Uber (as well as all other on-demand services like Doordash, Caviar, etc.) was that everything is included and I don't have to think.
Companies like Uber should be focused on building a product that consumers want and nothing else. These decisions are nothing more than the company being bullied (by the media and activists) into making politically correct decisions that brings NO benefit to any parties involved, including the drivers.
If anyone thinks this will eventually be beneficial for the drivers they're short-sighted. It's just turning Uber into a Taxi experience.
For me the main benefit of using Uber (as well as all other on-demand services like Doordash, Caviar, etc.) was that everything is included and I don't have to think.
Companies like Uber should be focused on building a product that consumers want and nothing else. These decisions are nothing more than the company being bullied (by the media and activists) into making politically correct decisions that brings NO benefit to any parties involved, including the drivers.
If anyone thinks this will eventually be beneficial for the drivers they're short-sighted. It's just turning Uber into a Taxi experience.
Uber is building a product consumers want. That product must have a brand that consumers don't find repugnant.
You seem to want a free market, but not a market that prioritizes things (e.g. tipping) that you don't care about.
You can't have it both ways. The market has spoken and Uber has responded.
You seem to want a free market, but not a market that prioritizes things (e.g. tipping) that you don't care about.
You can't have it both ways. The market has spoken and Uber has responded.
"I really hope I can pay more to get from A to B", said nobody.
Also I don't know where your assumption "The market has spoken" comes from.
Also I don't know where your assumption "The market has spoken" comes from.
> "I really hope I can pay more to get from A to B", said nobody.
Oh, that's me! Here's a few reasons I'd want to have the option to pay a driver a bit more:
- I forced them to drive a stressful route
- I forced them to drive waaay off the beaten path
- They helped me schlep large items in/out of their vehicle
- I inconvenienced them somehow to where it makes their next ride a bit less likely to tip / star (like making a mess in the car)
> The market has spoken
A driver and I recently discussed this change, and our conclusion was: "finally!". Tipping is the custom in the USA for exactly this kind of job. Making it inconvenient or impossible to tip inside the app is like garnishing drivers' wages. Some drivers really really do deserve to benefit more from their labor, and some riders really do owe their drivers a bit more.
Oh, that's me! Here's a few reasons I'd want to have the option to pay a driver a bit more:
- I forced them to drive a stressful route
- I forced them to drive waaay off the beaten path
- They helped me schlep large items in/out of their vehicle
- I inconvenienced them somehow to where it makes their next ride a bit less likely to tip / star (like making a mess in the car)
> The market has spoken
A driver and I recently discussed this change, and our conclusion was: "finally!". Tipping is the custom in the USA for exactly this kind of job. Making it inconvenient or impossible to tip inside the app is like garnishing drivers' wages. Some drivers really really do deserve to benefit more from their labor, and some riders really do owe their drivers a bit more.
Tipping is a repugnant practice full stop. Tweak the algorithm to charge more for high stress or off path routes and remove the onus on the customer to have to go through this pointless ritual.
I'd much rather know my driver is paid a fair wage (and pay more upfront) by their fucking employer rather than have to be responsible of making up the difference.
I'd much rather know my driver is paid a fair wage (and pay more upfront) by their fucking employer rather than have to be responsible of making up the difference.
> Tipping is a repugnant practice full stop.
Not everyone agrees. It's vulgar in my ideal world (Star Trek), but that is not the world in which we live (yet).
> I'd much rather know my driver is paid a fair wage (and pay more upfront) by their fucking employer rather than have to be responsible of making up the difference.
I agree with this. But, I also believe that Uber is exploiting its drivers, and that its app is not sufficient in these situations (yet?) to dispense with tipping altogether.
So, on balance, I see Uber's return to the custom of this culture to be a benefit to Uber's employees.
Not everyone agrees. It's vulgar in my ideal world (Star Trek), but that is not the world in which we live (yet).
> I'd much rather know my driver is paid a fair wage (and pay more upfront) by their fucking employer rather than have to be responsible of making up the difference.
I agree with this. But, I also believe that Uber is exploiting its drivers, and that its app is not sufficient in these situations (yet?) to dispense with tipping altogether.
So, on balance, I see Uber's return to the custom of this culture to be a benefit to Uber's employees.
I say that. I usually want to tip the driver and I want an easy way to do it. I started using Lyft because I could tip in the app. I don't want to have to carry around cash.
If they're being bullied into this decision (and I don't think they are), it's not because they're too timid to stand up to the media. It's because their customers might leave them, because their customers prefer companies that act more justly.
You're arguing that a company should act only in its own rational self-interest. That's a reasonable point of view. But there's zero evidence that this is not in Uber's self-interest.
EDIT: I saw your comment in response to smt88. I do want to pay more for a taxi. I want to be able to control how much I pay according to how good of a service was provided, and I want to feel like the taxi driver is getting a decent pay rate. That's one of the reasons I typically use Lyft, and if it weren't for a terrible experience with Uber customer service, this decision would make me more likely to use Uber again.
You're arguing that a company should act only in its own rational self-interest. That's a reasonable point of view. But there's zero evidence that this is not in Uber's self-interest.
EDIT: I saw your comment in response to smt88. I do want to pay more for a taxi. I want to be able to control how much I pay according to how good of a service was provided, and I want to feel like the taxi driver is getting a decent pay rate. That's one of the reasons I typically use Lyft, and if it weren't for a terrible experience with Uber customer service, this decision would make me more likely to use Uber again.
Look at the market share and you'll see what most people think. Good for you that you're using Lyft, but most people use Uber because they don't care about those things.
Also tipping is an American (and some other countries) thing. Many countries around the world don't have the tipping culture and these people feel very uncomfortable when they are expected to tip because they don't know what's the right amount.
I have lived in those countries and trust me living in a culture where tipping is expected is much more stressful.
Also tipping is an American (and some other countries) thing. Many countries around the world don't have the tipping culture and these people feel very uncomfortable when they are expected to tip because they don't know what's the right amount.
I have lived in those countries and trust me living in a culture where tipping is expected is much more stressful.
Pressuring consumers into paying more than the negotiated price isn't 'acting more justly'
There isn't much of a negotiation though.
Somebody else said than an early version of the Uber app let customers define their tip in the app and it was automatically applied. Maybe they should bring that back and also give drivers the ability to filter on that value.
Somebody else said than an early version of the Uber app let customers define their tip in the app and it was automatically applied. Maybe they should bring that back and also give drivers the ability to filter on that value.
I made a poor choice of words: I mean the agreed price.
No tips. The price is the price and being begged by some asshole won't make the experience better.
No tips. The price is the price and being begged by some asshole won't make the experience better.
You and I have clearly had vastly different rideshare experiences.
I wouldn't describe any of the drivers I've had as being assholes. Every single one of them was at least friendly. Most were helpful, some extremely so. Rather than begging for a tip, I was happy to give them a little bit extra. They appreciate it and I feel good about it. It's win-win.
I wouldn't describe any of the drivers I've had as being assholes. Every single one of them was at least friendly. Most were helpful, some extremely so. Rather than begging for a tip, I was happy to give them a little bit extra. They appreciate it and I feel good about it. It's win-win.
ubers customer service support has actually gotten better. not great but... Lyft's is horrible, on the drivers side anyway.
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ubers customer service support has actually gotten better. not great but... Lyft's is horrible, on the drivers side anyway.
Posting on a throwaway because of tipping stigma.
I take close to 1,000 Uber trips per year.
The biggest disappointment about this change to me is that I won't be having conversations with Uber drivers anymore.
Uber drivers will now be obligated to make pleasant conversation with me. I have no interest in speaking to somebody who's obligated to make pleasant conversation with me.
When you add tipping, you're essentially attaching a financial penalty to sincerity.
All economic arguments aside, it's just not right to penalize someone for being in a bad mood that day or not wanting to talk to you. We force these workers to maintain these totally fabricated upbeat emotional states and we act like it's normal. It's not normal anywhere else in the world, and I can't stand it.
Every time I see someone making conversation with a waiter or waitress, it honestly seems rude to me. They have to talk to you, they have to agree with you, they have to smile and laugh at your joke. By having a conversation with them you're forcing them to do all of these things, and if they don't, you're going to take money off their tab. That is just rude.
Uber will have access to all the data related to tipping, the fare splits will be adjusted accordingly, and Uber drivers' pay will normalize to exactly what it already would have been without tipping.
I take close to 1,000 Uber trips per year.
The biggest disappointment about this change to me is that I won't be having conversations with Uber drivers anymore.
Uber drivers will now be obligated to make pleasant conversation with me. I have no interest in speaking to somebody who's obligated to make pleasant conversation with me.
When you add tipping, you're essentially attaching a financial penalty to sincerity.
All economic arguments aside, it's just not right to penalize someone for being in a bad mood that day or not wanting to talk to you. We force these workers to maintain these totally fabricated upbeat emotional states and we act like it's normal. It's not normal anywhere else in the world, and I can't stand it.
Every time I see someone making conversation with a waiter or waitress, it honestly seems rude to me. They have to talk to you, they have to agree with you, they have to smile and laugh at your joke. By having a conversation with them you're forcing them to do all of these things, and if they don't, you're going to take money off their tab. That is just rude.
Uber will have access to all the data related to tipping, the fare splits will be adjusted accordingly, and Uber drivers' pay will normalize to exactly what it already would have been without tipping.
Ah, a kindred spirit. I detest forced cheerfulness that is so frequently required from public-facing workers. Be neutral. Be professional. Don't be hostile. That's all acceptable. But that must-be-upbeat-at-all-costs straitjacket... Some people are naturally sunny, and they should be cherished. But the majority probably aren't, and please don't force them. Sometimes you can see the flash of resentment in their eyes, which probably isn't directed at you personally, but won't fail to make you feel shitty if you're attuned to it.
As someone who literally works for tips, I've found that I make more tips when I am sincere with guests (of the hotel that I work at).
That makes sense; most people can tell if you're just making conversation in order to suck up to someone vs. are genuinely interested in talking to them. So if you genuinely do care about a person and show that through your interaction with them, they'd be likely to appreciate it more, and show that appreciation.
I'm curious, though: if you have nothing to say to a person, and don't say anything, do you get more or less of a tip than if you were to (insincerely) attempt to make polite conversation?
I'm curious, though: if you have nothing to say to a person, and don't say anything, do you get more or less of a tip than if you were to (insincerely) attempt to make polite conversation?
Hate to break it to you but those drivers were talking to you because they want you to rate them well, and there is a financial penalty if they didn't talk and you rated them poorly.
Never thought about the economics of tipping before, but if having the customers being able to punish unhelpful staff increases the odds of having returning customers, that would increase the likelihood of Uber drivers being better paid under competition. The only issue is whether Uber drivers have a comparable outside option.
As for the bit on sincerity, can't say much as nowadays I just find it totally alien. People gotta live somehow, be it with others or just with ourselves. So getting hung up on the porcupine's dilemma and whether every interaction we make with another person is like a hundred tiny knifes running across their face is a great way to miss the point: sometimes their words hurt me too. But I don't show it, because I want to drop it and go back to the point.
Although I reckon this is more of a "honest" fakeness rather than the giddy fakeness which is sometimes found in customer service.
As for the bit on sincerity, can't say much as nowadays I just find it totally alien. People gotta live somehow, be it with others or just with ourselves. So getting hung up on the porcupine's dilemma and whether every interaction we make with another person is like a hundred tiny knifes running across their face is a great way to miss the point: sometimes their words hurt me too. But I don't show it, because I want to drop it and go back to the point.
Although I reckon this is more of a "honest" fakeness rather than the giddy fakeness which is sometimes found in customer service.
> if having the customers being able to punish unhelpful staff increases the odds of having returning customers, that would increase the likelihood of Uber drivers being better paid under competition.
Doesn't the rating system approximate this outcome well enough, though? Being able to rate a driver, and see the overall rating before I get in the car is of huge value to me as a customer. Feeling obligated to tip is a net negative for me.
In a restaurant (in the US at least) it's so expected to tip that if you tip lower than 15% for terrible service you're considered cheapskate. Even though Uber's tipping will presumably be anonymous-ish (assuming they implement it like Lyft has), I would still feel that social pressure.
Doesn't the rating system approximate this outcome well enough, though? Being able to rate a driver, and see the overall rating before I get in the car is of huge value to me as a customer. Feeling obligated to tip is a net negative for me.
In a restaurant (in the US at least) it's so expected to tip that if you tip lower than 15% for terrible service you're considered cheapskate. Even though Uber's tipping will presumably be anonymous-ish (assuming they implement it like Lyft has), I would still feel that social pressure.
Oh, I forgot about rating! It indeed should act in the same way as tipping, but not necessarily to the same degree. It's possible, for instance, that the change on a the driver's earnings conditional on any new rating is lower than the tip that he'd get from a new trip. Even more so as a driver's rating is the average rating from all his recent trips.
If pulls a 5-star service for 499 customers and a 0-star service for a single customer (for whatever reason) his rating drops from 5 to 4.99, which doesn't seem that relevant. Unless a 0.01 drop in his rating means a loss in earnings greater than that of a lost tip, the tipping system would provide better rewards for not dropping the ball.
Forgot about the social pressure, too (I'm not American). That could be a real issue, because if people don't actually consider not tipping then it's just dead as a incentive scheme. They'd have to make tipping anonymous.
By the way, I don't think pressure under anonymous choice is "social". You could attribute it to education and thus society and some way but ... that's rather roundabout. I think the more appropriate term is "consciousness".
If pulls a 5-star service for 499 customers and a 0-star service for a single customer (for whatever reason) his rating drops from 5 to 4.99, which doesn't seem that relevant. Unless a 0.01 drop in his rating means a loss in earnings greater than that of a lost tip, the tipping system would provide better rewards for not dropping the ball.
Forgot about the social pressure, too (I'm not American). That could be a real issue, because if people don't actually consider not tipping then it's just dead as a incentive scheme. They'd have to make tipping anonymous.
By the way, I don't think pressure under anonymous choice is "social". You could attribute it to education and thus society and some way but ... that's rather roundabout. I think the more appropriate term is "consciousness".
Yes, I also believe that, in the US at least, the social pressure distorts the signal that the tip sends so it's meaningless. There is such a huge stigma associated with not tipping (or tipping poorly), that most people will tip a decent amount even for poor service.
Granted, the rating system is no better, even if for different reasons: since Uber/Lyft will deactivate drivers if their rating falls below what I'd consider to be a fairly high value (something above 4), most people (where I live, at least) give 5 stars unless there was something seriously wrong with the ride, so a mediocre driver will get the same rating as an exemplary driver.
Granted, the rating system is no better, even if for different reasons: since Uber/Lyft will deactivate drivers if their rating falls below what I'd consider to be a fairly high value (something above 4), most people (where I live, at least) give 5 stars unless there was something seriously wrong with the ride, so a mediocre driver will get the same rating as an exemplary driver.
How many Lyft trips per year for you? Because they've had tipping for a while, so you don't need to speculate about how this is going to ruin everything.
Not the person you're replying to, but I've been using Lyft exclusively for the past several months, and while I appreciate that Lyft's tipping is effectively anonymous and you're not put on the spot, I will admit to hating the cognitive/emotional load of seeing that tipping screen and momentarily agonizing over how much I should give.
It just happens to be that Lyft's tipping annoys me less than Uber's shitty corporate culture these days.
It just happens to be that Lyft's tipping annoys me less than Uber's shitty corporate culture these days.
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Uber drivers are already sufficiently obligated to make pleasant conversation with you. Do you really believe the lack of tipping somehow made your chats with Uber drivers more sincere and meaningful? A full-time driver for hire has dozens of these a day. They're not doing it for the sincere conversations.
> Every time I see someone making conversation with a waiter or waitress, it honestly seems rude to me. They have to talk to you, they have to agree with you, they have to smile and laugh at your joke. By having a conversation with them you're forcing them to do all of these things, and if they don't, you're going to take money off their tab. That is just rude.
This is just silly. You could just as easily (and just as incorrectly) say that someone not conversing with their server is consigning them to the indignity of being invisible and ignored all day, like an appliance instead of a person. Hell, I've had plenty of waiters that talked _my_ ear off more than I would've optimally preferred. The fact that social cues are attenuated in the conversation doesn't mean they don't exist; blanket statements like "every time someone makes conversation with the waiter they're forcing them to talk" are just dumb.
This is just silly. You could just as easily (and just as incorrectly) say that someone not conversing with their server is consigning them to the indignity of being invisible and ignored all day, like an appliance instead of a person. Hell, I've had plenty of waiters that talked _my_ ear off more than I would've optimally preferred. The fact that social cues are attenuated in the conversation doesn't mean they don't exist; blanket statements like "every time someone makes conversation with the waiter they're forcing them to talk" are just dumb.
If Uber drivers' pay ends up at exactly what it was before this, I think Uber's going to have a big problem as all their drivers ditch the platform. Uber already pays their drivers shit, there's no way they can justify taking even more of the money from each ride away from the driver.
As for whether they should tip in the first place, this wouldn't be a problem if Uber charged enough to begin with. But they got into a price war, with a company that does do tipping already, and they simply don't charge enough now to pay the drivers enough.
As for whether they should tip in the first place, this wouldn't be a problem if Uber charged enough to begin with. But they got into a price war, with a company that does do tipping already, and they simply don't charge enough now to pay the drivers enough.
Uber's margin on a ride is already 35-40% in US cities (source: UberPeople), thanks to their 'upfront fares' pricing (rider fare is not used for calculation of driver fares at all, drivers are paid per mile/km and min), their Booking fees, UberPool pricing disparities, and Surge disparities (a rider paying a 1.5x surge does not necessarily mean a driver is receiving 1.5x).
> (rider fare is not used for calculation of driver fares at all, drivers are paid per mile/km and min)
Is this still the case? Uber recently lost a class-action suit about this (and I got a silly $42 check in the mail from it).
Is this still the case? Uber recently lost a class-action suit about this (and I got a silly $42 check in the mail from it).
They updated their ToS to reflect this.
Yes, Uber already takes a very high percentage. If they bump that up to e.g. 60% in order to capture the expected tip, it's hard to imagine drivers being ok with that.
The most important feature I liked in Uber relative to lyft was no tipping. Why not spike the price up a little and compensate them.
When they have started, the motto was, "Uber - Your private driver" and it was truly like that until today I tip the driver like every other service you get.
When they have started, the motto was, "Uber - Your private driver" and it was truly like that until today I tip the driver like every other service you get.
> When they have started, the motto was, "Uber - Your private driver" and it was truly like that
Are cash tips expected on Uber Black? My understanding is that segment operates on much more generous rates than cut-throat UberX.
Are cash tips expected on Uber Black? My understanding is that segment operates on much more generous rates than cut-throat UberX.
Why are people up in arms over this? Being able to tip on Lyft is one of my favorite parts and from what I've read and understood, it generally favors the drivers. You don't need to tip immediately, a nice little dialog pops up with pre-configured amounts, and you can go above and beyond if you had good service
> Why are people up in arms over this?
Because in the US tipping isn't for good service. You tip 15% for regular, average service. I don't think it's unreasonable for me to pay a flat, quoted rate for getting from A to B.
Because in the US tipping isn't for good service. You tip 15% for regular, average service. I don't think it's unreasonable for me to pay a flat, quoted rate for getting from A to B.
> Being able to tip on Lyft is one of my favorite parts
Feeling obligated to tip on Lyft is one of my least favorite parts, and in fact I refused to switch from Uber to Lyft much longer than I would have preferred to because of Lyft's tipping culture.
> it generally favors the drivers
You know what favors the drivers better? Paying them more. Not only does this put more cash in their pockets, but it also provides more predictable income for them.
Feeling obligated to tip on Lyft is one of my least favorite parts, and in fact I refused to switch from Uber to Lyft much longer than I would have preferred to because of Lyft's tipping culture.
> it generally favors the drivers
You know what favors the drivers better? Paying them more. Not only does this put more cash in their pockets, but it also provides more predictable income for them.
Because tipping is racist, sexist, and classist --- tips don't correlate with levels of service and reduce predictability in working and using a service.
> Because tipping is racist, sexist, and classist
Surely this has to be facetious? If not I would love to hear you elaborate?
Surely this has to be facetious? If not I would love to hear you elaborate?
Indeed.
> Racist
One reason why Uber has been great for the black community is that hailing a cab has traditionally been more difficult. Studies show that Black patrons get lower levels of service and black waiters get lower tips than their white peers (because of enduring stereotypes).
> Sexist
Women are often tipped more based off of looks than their male peers. Similarly, warding off advances and harassment is a thing.
> Classist
A diner and a 5 star restaurant often have competing levels of service, yet % based tipping means that the restaurant servers take home much less more money. Similarly, things like crooked teeth can affect how your patrons regard your smile.
> Racist
One reason why Uber has been great for the black community is that hailing a cab has traditionally been more difficult. Studies show that Black patrons get lower levels of service and black waiters get lower tips than their white peers (because of enduring stereotypes).
> Sexist
Women are often tipped more based off of looks than their male peers. Similarly, warding off advances and harassment is a thing.
> Classist
A diner and a 5 star restaurant often have competing levels of service, yet % based tipping means that the restaurant servers take home much less more money. Similarly, things like crooked teeth can affect how your patrons regard your smile.
http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic...
> consumers of both races discriminate against black service providers by tipping them less than white service providers
> consumers of both races discriminate against black service providers by tipping them less than white service providers
This is hardly a scientific study and does nothing to prove that the practice of tipping in itself is racist/sexist.
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Esquire has elaborated http://www.esquire.com/food-drink/restaurants/a23132/why-tip..., but most of source research is from Michael Flynn. http://esq.h-cdn.co/assets/cm/15/06/54d4001b11630_-_CQ10Race...
Because many people (including myself) hate the very idea of tipping and don't want to see it becoming standard in places it isn't currently.
It adds friction to the process for getting from A to B.
Cabs
1. Find a cab
2. Hail the cab
3. Get in cab
4. Decide what to tip the cab
5. Pay the cab driver
6. Get out of cab
vs
Uber (without tipping)
1. Hail the uber from phone
2. Get in uber
3. Get out of uber
You could make the argument that tipping is optional, but deciding not to tip is still a decision making step.
Cabs
1. Find a cab
2. Hail the cab
3. Get in cab
4. Decide what to tip the cab
5. Pay the cab driver
6. Get out of cab
vs
Uber (without tipping)
1. Hail the uber from phone
2. Get in uber
3. Get out of uber
You could make the argument that tipping is optional, but deciding not to tip is still a decision making step.
Uh... don't you have to rate the driver?
You don't have to tip the driver in the car dude.
You can just step out go home and rate and leave tip or not.
I was a lyft driver. You don't even need to tip cause I made a decent amount during the hours I work for. It's a nice gesture but I didn't care.
If you work around club hours and I forgot what they call it, in demand time, you're making decent money.
> Decide what to tip the cab
>___> dude it have preset option of 10% or something on there. Just click no.
You can do it outside of the car too jeez.
You don't have to tip the driver in the car dude.
You can just step out go home and rate and leave tip or not.
I was a lyft driver. You don't even need to tip cause I made a decent amount during the hours I work for. It's a nice gesture but I didn't care.
If you work around club hours and I forgot what they call it, in demand time, you're making decent money.
> Decide what to tip the cab
>___> dude it have preset option of 10% or something on there. Just click no.
You can do it outside of the car too jeez.
You don't have to rate the driver anymore I believe. Even if you put the step of tipping after getting out of the cab, it's a step.
Having a preset option is a good way to take out the friction, but instead you could just not include tipping and pay higher wages. Tipping is a way for businesses to bury the actual cost of a service.
I understand as a driver, it's nice to get tips, but if you get paid a fair wage it shouldn't matter.
Having a preset option is a good way to take out the friction, but instead you could just not include tipping and pay higher wages. Tipping is a way for businesses to bury the actual cost of a service.
I understand as a driver, it's nice to get tips, but if you get paid a fair wage it shouldn't matter.
Because I don't want "good service," I just want a ride to where I'm going.
The irony is that people have tipped their private drivers as long as they've existed.
I don't use Uber or Lyft, but if I was, this would drive me away from Uber.
From what I hear from my friends who use Uber, 1 reason they love it is because all the charges are through the app and there is no "obligation" to tip, so it's 1 less decision them have to make, i.e. calculate how much to tip, keep wondering if you tipped the driver too much, or too little, what's a "fair" tip for the ride etc etc.
From what I hear from my friends who use Uber, 1 reason they love it is because all the charges are through the app and there is no "obligation" to tip, so it's 1 less decision them have to make, i.e. calculate how much to tip, keep wondering if you tipped the driver too much, or too little, what's a "fair" tip for the ride etc etc.
There's still no obligation to tip whatsoever. After your ride, when you next open the app (which could be days later) you are presented with a screen asking you to rate your driver (this already occurs). I think if you give a 5 star, then the option to give a "compliment" is given, which is similar to a badge or a Facebook like.
As well, now, a tip button is also presented. You don't have to click on it if you don't want to.
I will never tip with zero guilt.
I will never tip with zero guilt.
> I will never tip with zero guilt.
I suspect you're in the minority. Most people (in the US, anyway), when presented with an explicit option to tip, will do so out of a sense of obligation, or out of a desire not to be seen as a cheapskate -- even if the decision whether or not to tip is anonymous! Unfortunately that's how ingrained tipping culture is here.
I suspect you're in the minority. Most people (in the US, anyway), when presented with an explicit option to tip, will do so out of a sense of obligation, or out of a desire not to be seen as a cheapskate -- even if the decision whether or not to tip is anonymous! Unfortunately that's how ingrained tipping culture is here.
Won't Uber reduce payments to drivers if most people tip?
Yes, but they were going to reduce those payments anyway.
The difference is, when those cuts happen, they'll just focus their blame and discontent on "those cheapos" who aren't tipping instead of Uber itself. The service industry has already perfected this tactic.
This seems a bit of a stretch. Plenty of industries have tipping, but I haven't heard of a company leader blaming low pay to lack of tips. Do you have any sources to back this statement?
You see this sentiment ALL the time in food services. Wait staff or pizza delivery guys always bitch about "cheap" customers instead of the reality that their boss lies about prices and then skims it out of their paychecks when people don't pay the "real price" of the food.
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Potentially still an issue if drivers can see if you tip or not (with some services, such as Postmates, Amazon Prime Now, they can) and give riders who don't tip 1 star or something.
Or even if it happens after rating, they might stereotype certain parts of town due to how people there tip on average and then underserve those places. The great thing when I first used Uber was how in some parts of town it was impossible to get a taxi but a Uber would always come.
Yes, there is an obligation. A social obligation.
If you think this is not a real obligation or doesn't have real consequences, then you have no experience with tipping.
If you think this is not a real obligation or doesn't have real consequences, then you have no experience with tipping.
Doesn't Uber allow drivers to rate passengers as well? Couldn't drivers give low ratings to bad tippers?
Lyft already has tipping.
And it's incredibly easy and low stress, all done through the app.
Which is identical to what Uber just added?
Yes and my point is that it is not hurting Lyft's growth. It's not hard for people to use--which was what the GP was speculating about.
> Yes and my point is that it is not hurting Lyft's growth.
That's an opinion, not a point. There's little data available to support the assertion, other than that Lyft has been, and still is, a smaller organisation and less less popular globally, and hasn't been growing as fast as Uber. Ultimately you can't compare the success of Lyft-with-tipping to Lyft-sans-tipping since one doesn't exist.
> It's not hard for people to use--which was what the GP was speculating about
I agree with others (mostly non-US residents, I expect) insofar as I don't think it's hard to physically tap an extra button on my phone, but it's additional cognitive bother that didn't exist yesterday.
It de-differentiates Uber from its competitors (this doesn't really matter to me, but it does make the background to the decision more interesting).
That's an opinion, not a point. There's little data available to support the assertion, other than that Lyft has been, and still is, a smaller organisation and less less popular globally, and hasn't been growing as fast as Uber. Ultimately you can't compare the success of Lyft-with-tipping to Lyft-sans-tipping since one doesn't exist.
> It's not hard for people to use--which was what the GP was speculating about
I agree with others (mostly non-US residents, I expect) insofar as I don't think it's hard to physically tap an extra button on my phone, but it's additional cognitive bother that didn't exist yesterday.
It de-differentiates Uber from its competitors (this doesn't really matter to me, but it does make the background to the decision more interesting).
Now I'm going to start using Lyft again. The tipping model is terrible and given the option I'll always shy away from it. Even though Lyft has the same feature, they pay better, so I don't feel bad for not tipping them.
Also having to deal with some of the shadier/creepier drivers expecting tips sounds like something I'd rather not deal with.
Also having to deal with some of the shadier/creepier drivers expecting tips sounds like something I'd rather not deal with.
You're going to switch to Lyft, which has had a tipping model for ages, because a competitor is just now adding tipping?
Sure. If Lyft is otherwise better, and Uber is getting rid of the one thing that keeps me using it, doesn't it make sense to switch?
Perfectly logical if that was main reason not to use Lyft, now on a leveled field Uber may seem worse and Lyft wins the business. No tipping was kinda big difference for Uber.
I realized that and just edited my post
Agreed, this is the only feature that kept me from using Lyft. Given every other reason not to use Uber as of late, now that the two platforms are basically the same, this is probably what does it for me.
"Also having to deal with some of the shadier/creepier drivers expecting tips sounds like something I'd rather not deal with." What makes you think you won't get them with Lyft? Pretty much same people drive for both services. I just look at both apps and pick a cheaper one.
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I loved Lyft's tipping feature and used it over Uber because many times I had to take my cats to the vet and it was nice to be able to tip the driver for the extra hassle. Same was true if I ever took Lyft while taking my sick wife from her work to home and she threw up in the car.
Except, my Lyft ratings kept on tanking, and I didn't even know. At one time I tipped a guy nearly 60% of the tab. Despite of this, my Uber rating were 4.8 and Lyft ratings were 4.0.
Eventually I figured out, it is the way Lyft implemented their tipping mechanism. All tips are combined and given to the driver at the end of the week. I mean what is the point of tipping then?
Since then I only give cash tips.
Except, my Lyft ratings kept on tanking, and I didn't even know. At one time I tipped a guy nearly 60% of the tab. Despite of this, my Uber rating were 4.8 and Lyft ratings were 4.0.
Eventually I figured out, it is the way Lyft implemented their tipping mechanism. All tips are combined and given to the driver at the end of the week. I mean what is the point of tipping then?
Since then I only give cash tips.
For something that is supposed to be friction free, tipping really runs against that.
We all know that next there are going to be the subtle and not-so subtle encouragements from drivers to tip. Then the expectation to tip.
This move seems to only confuse me as a consumer, create something else for drivers to be annoyed about (the tips they receive vs what uber claimed they'll see), and adding an additional cognitive layer in payments.
I don't see the lasting benefit here. Just increase prices or increase driver share of payout.
We all know that next there are going to be the subtle and not-so subtle encouragements from drivers to tip. Then the expectation to tip.
This move seems to only confuse me as a consumer, create something else for drivers to be annoyed about (the tips they receive vs what uber claimed they'll see), and adding an additional cognitive layer in payments.
I don't see the lasting benefit here. Just increase prices or increase driver share of payout.
Lyft seems to have nailed it - the tip is not necessarily immediate (and can be added 3 days later), and the payout to the driver is in a single anonymized chunk, so it's not easy (or too late) to track the rider to the tip amount.
Uber is giving you 30 days to tip the driver . They will also be giving single aggregated chunk at the end of day or week.
> We all know that next there are going to be the subtle and not-so subtle encouragements from drivers to tip. Then the expectation to tip.
That already happened, with passive-aggressive comments about how you can tip in cash.
> I don't see the lasting benefit here. Just increase prices or increase driver share of payout.
There's a clear perceived benefit to Uber: PR with drivers, perceived improvement as a company (as opposed to having to fix hard corporate-culture issues), and the ability to keep the "advertised" price lower. (Of course, they're missing that they've now abandoned one of their major differentiators from their lead competitor.)
But there's certainly no lasting benefit to customers. Tips should be for extraordinary, stand-out service, not a customary hassle in every transaction.
That already happened, with passive-aggressive comments about how you can tip in cash.
> I don't see the lasting benefit here. Just increase prices or increase driver share of payout.
There's a clear perceived benefit to Uber: PR with drivers, perceived improvement as a company (as opposed to having to fix hard corporate-culture issues), and the ability to keep the "advertised" price lower. (Of course, they're missing that they've now abandoned one of their major differentiators from their lead competitor.)
But there's certainly no lasting benefit to customers. Tips should be for extraordinary, stand-out service, not a customary hassle in every transaction.
I used to abhor the in-app tipping option in Lyft. But increasingly I would be asked to tip cash by drivers when I used Uber. My rating started to get lower as the cultural expectation to tip cash took hold.
It turns out the Lyft model, where the driver doesn't know whether or not the rider tipped, is better for the rider. The rider doesn't have to carry cash in order to avoid getting extorted for a 5-star rating.
Tipping culture in restaurants is subsidizing substandard wages for servers. Tipping culture for taxis and the gypsy cab apps (Uber, Didi, Lyft, etc) doesn't have to take hold. Maybe now that the option is in-app, riders will eventually stop using it.
I hope, at least, that the tipping option is confined to U.S. rides. The rest of the world doesn't need to get infected with it.
It turns out the Lyft model, where the driver doesn't know whether or not the rider tipped, is better for the rider. The rider doesn't have to carry cash in order to avoid getting extorted for a 5-star rating.
Tipping culture in restaurants is subsidizing substandard wages for servers. Tipping culture for taxis and the gypsy cab apps (Uber, Didi, Lyft, etc) doesn't have to take hold. Maybe now that the option is in-app, riders will eventually stop using it.
I hope, at least, that the tipping option is confined to U.S. rides. The rest of the world doesn't need to get infected with it.
I usually avoid making comments like this, but I'm surprised I had to go down so far to find a mention of Uber's existing tip culture. It's far better for passengers for tipping to be app integrated, and thus optional with less pressure from the driver, rather than Uber's prior system which resulted in many drivers effectively begging for cash tips.
> I usually avoid making comments like this, but I'm surprised I had to go down so far to find a mention of Uber's existing tip culture
This may be because of the markets that HN readers are skewed towards and the fact that they may not have this culture at all. I live in San Francisco, have used Uber for about 5-6 years (since well before UberX), and have probably taken hundreds of rides: I've literally not once ever had a driver ask me for a cash tip, let alone the ridiculous experiences others on this thread are describing of drivers holding your rating hostage until you tip.
This may be because of the markets that HN readers are skewed towards and the fact that they may not have this culture at all. I live in San Francisco, have used Uber for about 5-6 years (since well before UberX), and have probably taken hundreds of rides: I've literally not once ever had a driver ask me for a cash tip, let alone the ridiculous experiences others on this thread are describing of drivers holding your rating hostage until you tip.
It wasn't until 2016 until I was actively asked by drivers for cash tips.
Just wait until you want a ride into Sausalito or Oakland.
Either that or you'll get a text from the driver pretending to be official Uber/Lyft:
Just wait until you want a ride into Sausalito or Oakland.
Either that or you'll get a text from the driver pretending to be official Uber/Lyft:
Notice: this driver's area is restricted to [geographical area].
Cancel this ride and request again or face a $5 cancellation fee.
--Lyft/Uber dispatch"Thanks. I didn't realize it until about a week ago. Of course, none of these companies can put this stuff in their press kit: "we do in-app tipping so drivers can finally stop hassling riders about it."
This is precisely the reason I switched from Uber to Lyft. I never carry cash, even though I desperately wanted to tip that Uber driver who picked me up at the subway station in the middle of the night and dropped me off at my house 20 miles away. I appreciate this option, even if I don't always use it.
Why never carry any cash? I can see not wanting to carry large amounts but what if your card or cards fails and you are left stranded.
Mainly because it's difficult to obtain. My bank has precious few ATMs. Typically if I really need cash I have to get it out of the old El Banco de CVS/Walgreens/7-Eleven in the form of cash back. All of my pay is directly deposited and so I rarely have the opportunity to interact with cash.
I'm curious, but why didn't you rate your drivers 1 star rating evertime they would break the Uber agreement and try to coherce you into tipping them in cash?
Don't Make Me Think. Charge me more if you must, but don't make me think.
Exactly. Add $1 to every fare and remit that without taking a cut. There!
Not having to deal with tips is THE reason I never bother checking Lyft. Now I guess I have no reason not to check both. Smart move Uber?
Aside from that, this is terrible news to me. The tip system is so flawed. 99% of people in America do not consider tips optional, but service here is no better for it. I want to pay a fair wage. I don't want to tip. Is there simply no market for this?
Aside from that, this is terrible news to me. The tip system is so flawed. 99% of people in America do not consider tips optional, but service here is no better for it. I want to pay a fair wage. I don't want to tip. Is there simply no market for this?
Tipping sucks because then the driver wants to build a relationship with me instead of letting me just zone out or check email or something. I don't want to have a single serving friend every time I need to go somewhere.
I actually really enjoy talking to my driver. They usually have a very different background than me. Maybe they recently immigrated from another country, for example. And it's neat to hear a bit about their life.
If you think of interacting with another human as a chore, then it will be a chore. But if you think of it an an opportunity to learn, then it can be very rewarding I think.
If you think of interacting with another human as a chore, then it will be a chore. But if you think of it an an opportunity to learn, then it can be very rewarding I think.
I enjoy talking to my uber drivers as well but I don't want them to be obliged to talk to me. I'm an extroverted person and I enjoy chatting, but there are times when I'm busy and want to check my email etc; but with tipping there'll be more drivers who start the conversation and it'll be rude to not reply.
Honestly though, I don't see the need for tipping to make people interact with each other. I've been taking uber for years (both in southern California and Singapore) and I don't see the need for this.
Honestly though, I don't see the need for tipping to make people interact with each other. I've been taking uber for years (both in southern California and Singapore) and I don't see the need for this.
I use Lyft, which has always had tipping, and I don't find this to be an issue. Usually I am the one that starts the conversation. And I'm no fan of tipping in general, but there's a lot more to a ride besides conversation that someone might want to tip for.
That's awesome that you enjoy that, but not everyone does. Many of us are introverted and/or shy, and forced interaction with a stranger is very draining. Claiming that this is a personal choice or frame of mind is incorrect. I would rather save my social/emotional energy for my actual friends, not people I'll likely never see again after a 10-minute ride.
Actually I am both introverted and shy! So to have these sorts of conversations was, for me, both a choice and a frame of mind.
Your personal experience is just as valuable as mine, but claiming that my opinion is 'incorrect' is probably a bit over the top. :P
Your personal experience is just as valuable as mine, but claiming that my opinion is 'incorrect' is probably a bit over the top. :P
Not really. You framed it as if anyone can (and should?) do as you do, which is incorrect.
I commute via Uber so the idea of having to talk every time is awful. Plus after a while every Uber conversation is exactly the same.
> Plus after a while every Uber conversation is exactly the same.
I've been taking Uber for...5-6 years at this point, with hundreds of rides, and this is emphatically untrue. If this is happening to you, it's probably has less to do with Uber drivers than it has to do with you. (Not that that's an unambiguously negative thing: being able to reliably have interesting conversations with strangers is hardly a required skill).
I've been taking Uber for...5-6 years at this point, with hundreds of rides, and this is emphatically untrue. If this is happening to you, it's probably has less to do with Uber drivers than it has to do with you. (Not that that's an unambiguously negative thing: being able to reliably have interesting conversations with strangers is hardly a required skill).
I'm totally capable of having interesting conversations with strangers thank you very much, but Uber rides almost inevitably lead to one of 4 out 5 topics with rare exceptions. Frankly I'd pay extra for an option to say "I prefer to be matched with drivers who don't want to talk".
That kind of disconnect and isolation is really well explored in the movie Fight Club:
"Everywhere I travel, tiny life. Single-serving sugar, single-serving cream, single pat of butter. The microwave Cordon Bleu hobby kit. Shampoo-conditioner combos, sample-packaged mouthwash, tiny bars of soap. The people I meet on each flight? They're single-serving friends."
"Everywhere I travel, tiny life. Single-serving sugar, single-serving cream, single pat of butter. The microwave Cordon Bleu hobby kit. Shampoo-conditioner combos, sample-packaged mouthwash, tiny bars of soap. The people I meet on each flight? They're single-serving friends."
Isn't that just making the same point, that pretending to be friends with an obviously very short-term acquaintance is silly?
It's not about "pretending to be friends." It's about making a connection to another human being.
Why would this happen? Drivers know their riders.
I use Lyft, which has had in-app tipping for a while now. In DC, most of the Lyft drivers are chatty. Last time I visited SF, none of the drivers were chatty.
I use Lyft, which has had in-app tipping for a while now. In DC, most of the Lyft drivers are chatty. Last time I visited SF, none of the drivers were chatty.
Don't you just sit in the back if you want to zone out and sit in the front if you want to talk?
I think that's a Lyft policy? As both an Uber and regular taxi rider I always sit in the back seat and drivers always talk to me.
Uber has never had a culture of sitting in the front seat (unless the rear seats are occupied, of course). Even with Lyft, that practice, along with fist-bumps, seems to have fallen out of favor.
I have gleaned - from such authoritative sources as TV - that tipping appears to be a large part of customer service culture in the USA. (Though I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it varies by region. Because the USA is just New York and California, right?)
I think this will have a negative effect on the experience of both driver & rider in countries where tipping is unusual, due to the increasing ambiguity of the fee. Especially if ratings become contingent upon tip.
It also seems to not fit the model. In a dining establishment there is a three party arrangement (restaurateur, customer, and server) and the assumption that the best way to motivate servers is to create a separate financial relationship between them and the customer. Uber already has well defined payments for all three parties, and channels for rating drivers and riders.
I think this will have a negative effect on the experience of both driver & rider in countries where tipping is unusual, due to the increasing ambiguity of the fee. Especially if ratings become contingent upon tip.
It also seems to not fit the model. In a dining establishment there is a three party arrangement (restaurateur, customer, and server) and the assumption that the best way to motivate servers is to create a separate financial relationship between them and the customer. Uber already has well defined payments for all three parties, and channels for rating drivers and riders.
Uber obviously knows where its drivers and customers are, and can show or hide in-app tipping based on that if they want to. In fact the article says they are rolling it out in only 3 U.S. cities to start.
My impression and experience is that it's pretty widespread in the US, although I've heard that the specific per-service expectations vary. I've never been anywhere in the US where tips weren't expected for sit-down restaurant waiters.
Extremely fancy restaurants are moving away from tipping. Everywhere else in the US, tips are expected and depended on by restaurant staff.
In California workers are at least paid minimum wage, ignoring tips, but in most states, restaurant workers are almost entirely dependent on tips to earn a living wage.
It’s a terrible system for a variety of reasons.
In California workers are at least paid minimum wage, ignoring tips, but in most states, restaurant workers are almost entirely dependent on tips to earn a living wage.
It’s a terrible system for a variety of reasons.
This seems like a complete inversion of the service incentives. The initial reason to use Uber was huge convenience and service quality. Uber Lux/Exec (or whatever they call it now) offered a vastly superior service to taxis for a ~20% price increase. Service is kept honest via ratings, prices are acceptable for that quality increase. Drivers were polite and looked after you (no music, water etc.). Uber X then comes in to compete with mainstream taxis (fair enough) but overall quality drops across the entire service.
Now you get rated (for sitting?) and must compete with other passengers on tipping, whilst service quality continues to drop. Not tipping for bad service lowers your rating dramatically, so you have to tip for mediocre/bad service and sneak in a bad rating, which increasingly has little effect. It used to be that I could not find an Uber with less than 4.8, because you couldn't last like that as a driver. I now regularly getting mediocre service from ~4.5.
My immediate feeling is that I should stop using Uber almost completely, risk normal taxis ripping me off occasionally (knowing your city helps) and only use Uber when really needed (no taxis around, urgent etc), tipping then.
Now you get rated (for sitting?) and must compete with other passengers on tipping, whilst service quality continues to drop. Not tipping for bad service lowers your rating dramatically, so you have to tip for mediocre/bad service and sneak in a bad rating, which increasingly has little effect. It used to be that I could not find an Uber with less than 4.8, because you couldn't last like that as a driver. I now regularly getting mediocre service from ~4.5.
My immediate feeling is that I should stop using Uber almost completely, risk normal taxis ripping me off occasionally (knowing your city helps) and only use Uber when really needed (no taxis around, urgent etc), tipping then.
I'm happy for drivers but not a fan of this change.
In Los Angeles I booked a ride and the driver never showed up. After cancelling the ride I got the $5 charge and luckily their support took care of it.
But tipping is something that needs to go away. I liked Uber despite their troubles because I was paying for a service and the minimum viable product is that the driver gets me from point A to point B safely.
Now what's in a fare? An opportunity to get in a car to pay more money for them to do their job.
In Los Angeles I booked a ride and the driver never showed up. After cancelling the ride I got the $5 charge and luckily their support took care of it.
But tipping is something that needs to go away. I liked Uber despite their troubles because I was paying for a service and the minimum viable product is that the driver gets me from point A to point B safely.
Now what's in a fare? An opportunity to get in a car to pay more money for them to do their job.
Tipping in the US is guilt driven and has very little to do with service.
This is Uber's attempt pass on the burden of compensation to their passengers. Uber rides just got a little more awkward.
This is Uber's attempt pass on the burden of compensation to their passengers. Uber rides just got a little more awkward.
..and apparently originated with slavery. http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2016/04/restaurants-t...
I hate, hate, hate tipping!
Just charge me what it costs to give them a living wage and I'm happy!
Just charge me what it costs to give them a living wage and I'm happy!
I really don't like our tipping culture and enjoyed avoiding it with Uber. I'd be happy to pay 20% higher prices across the board in order to avoid tipping.
You can just tip 20% every time, its done through the app so its not really any more work, maybe one additional finger tap when you're rating the driver.
and that removes the social pressure how?
Maybe I'm just oblivious but this isn't a problem for me.
welp, time to pack our bags, if it's not a problem for wcummings, then clearly it's not a problem for anyone.
Tipping culture needs to die. It's gross and unfair to put the burden of payment on the customer. It does not improve service, only lets business owners skate by with paying their employees like dirt.
Restaurant workers, drivers, doormen, valets, whatever - they are doing real work and should paid as such. If they have a bad attitude then they should be fired. It should be not up to the customer to 'reward' good behavior.
Uber was already dead in my eyes. I don't love that Lyft even has a tipping option, but at least it's optional. Why not cut the salaries of the execs (who, as it's been proven, are worse than useless) and compensate the workers better?
Restaurant workers, drivers, doormen, valets, whatever - they are doing real work and should paid as such. If they have a bad attitude then they should be fired. It should be not up to the customer to 'reward' good behavior.
Uber was already dead in my eyes. I don't love that Lyft even has a tipping option, but at least it's optional. Why not cut the salaries of the execs (who, as it's been proven, are worse than useless) and compensate the workers better?
> Why not cut the salaries of the execs
I'm afraid that's an executive decision.
I'm afraid that's an executive decision.
> I don't love that Lyft even has a tipping option, but at least it's optional.
It is going to be exactly the same with Uber's tipping.
It is going to be exactly the same with Uber's tipping.
I love this tidbit
> Riders will be charged by the minute if they keep an Uber car waiting for more than two minutes.
And will riders also be reimbursed for waiting for drivers? it seems all to frequent now that Ubers arrive significantly after their estimated time. Other times I get drivers that somehow don't move for 5 mins after reserving and yet accepted a ride.
And there is now no way to cancel out of this within 5 mins. Now you need to do so within two mins.
> Riders will be charged by the minute if they keep an Uber car waiting for more than two minutes.
And will riders also be reimbursed for waiting for drivers? it seems all to frequent now that Ubers arrive significantly after their estimated time. Other times I get drivers that somehow don't move for 5 mins after reserving and yet accepted a ride.
And there is now no way to cancel out of this within 5 mins. Now you need to do so within two mins.
I encounter this problem all the time in the suburbs. Finally a driver let slip why: He was asleep. They park their car outside their homes, and they go to sleep. Then when the phone alerts them to a fare, they open their eyes, accept the fare, then they get dressed, etc. go put gas in the car, maybe some breakfast, and then come and get you.
Tipping does not increase the service you get from someone. It just makes the customer feel guilty or pay more. Look at Publix: Rated No. 1 in the Temkin Customer Experience Ratings and No. 2 for Customer Service. But Tipping their baggers, even if they help you out to your car, is against company policy.
How do people describe Uber? Hey look, it's an app. You push a button and a car shows up. There's no fooling around with calling a company, figuring out a tip, carrying the correct change, worrying about the quality of the ride. You just push the button.
They are destroying their unique selling proposition. I can already push buttons and screw around with cab companies and drivers. I was looking for better than that. Uber's supposed to be no hassle. What the fuck, guys?
They are destroying their unique selling proposition. I can already push buttons and screw around with cab companies and drivers. I was looking for better than that. Uber's supposed to be no hassle. What the fuck, guys?
I ask this because it is my understanding that drivers can and do rate passengers on Uber(not sure about Lyft.)
Is it possible that someone who doesn't tip what the driver believe is enough or if they don't tip at all they will receive a bad passenger rating now, even if they are courteous and respectful?
I had some hope that the tipping parts of the world would maybe move away from the practice and just pay people what they are worth:
https://www.eater.com/2017/1/12/14250128/danny-meyer-tipping...
Is it possible that someone who doesn't tip what the driver believe is enough or if they don't tip at all they will receive a bad passenger rating now, even if they are courteous and respectful?
I had some hope that the tipping parts of the world would maybe move away from the practice and just pay people what they are worth:
https://www.eater.com/2017/1/12/14250128/danny-meyer-tipping...
They're charging teens more?? The people who earn the least if any at all... is there a special teens services that I'm not aware of?
And who asked for tipping besides drivers? Hate the concept. Charge us more or split the fare with them better.
And who asked for tipping besides drivers? Hate the concept. Charge us more or split the fare with them better.
The Uber driver in my neighborhood complained that the teens call up the cab to go 2 or 4 blocks. They are trying to emulate their parents and seam like a baler to their friends.
They need to raise the minimum fare for that then. Making teens pay more seems ridiculous to me.
I don't know if that is the cause of it; it's just one data point I heard (last year).
I'm actually curious what drove the increase. Since they are still in cost undercutting and competing mode I doubt it's just "because they can". I wonder if it has anything to do with economics (higher insurance rate) or what. According to this article: https://www.geekwire.com/2017/uber-drivers-sound-alarm-teen-...
"Uber says teen rides will only be booked with experienced drivers who have received consistently positive reviews."
So maybe the pool of drivers is smaller for teen accounts.
Also, teen accounts are not teens paying for it. But an account a parent can designate for the teen and they pay for it.
I'm actually curious what drove the increase. Since they are still in cost undercutting and competing mode I doubt it's just "because they can". I wonder if it has anything to do with economics (higher insurance rate) or what. According to this article: https://www.geekwire.com/2017/uber-drivers-sound-alarm-teen-...
"Uber says teen rides will only be booked with experienced drivers who have received consistently positive reviews."
So maybe the pool of drivers is smaller for teen accounts.
Also, teen accounts are not teens paying for it. But an account a parent can designate for the teen and they pay for it.
Drivers have to retain a 4.5 star rating to remain drivers I thought. I think that's a good enough bar. But I guess understandable if they're limiting to 4.9s+
It would be a good business model, like women can request women only would be a premium.
It would be a good business model, like women can request women only would be a premium.
Age discrimination: still just fine in America.
Forget allowing "age discrimination": You'd be hard-pressed to find a legal code in the world that doesn't _codify_ "age discrimination" when it comes to the adult/child line. It's honestly stretching the term beyond its common usage to include the child/adult line.
Well, a legal code can both codify discrimination against children in some specific contexts, and broadly ban it in others. (It's true, the term "age discrimination" has been coopted to refer to discrimination against older people.)
For example this NYC law bans a category of discrimination against children: http://www.nytimes.com/1993/12/04/nyregion/new-york-to-bar-a.... I wonder if it's broad enough to challenge the Uber policy?
For example this NYC law bans a category of discrimination against children: http://www.nytimes.com/1993/12/04/nyregion/new-york-to-bar-a.... I wonder if it's broad enough to challenge the Uber policy?
[deleted]
How do teens pay for Uber rides? Surely children aren't eligible for credit cards in the US?
I think teens are allowed to have debit cards in the US now (it wasn't that way when I was a teenager). They also can be added as an authorized user to an adult's credit card account, which gives them their own card in their name.
I used Uber to move across the city recently. Since I don't have much, I just needed a few SUV trips.
Each time the Uber driver got out and helped me load up his car, and then he helped me unload. I tipped them with cash except in one case where I just didn't have bills small enough (wasn't thinking).
This is nice.
Each time the Uber driver got out and helped me load up his car, and then he helped me unload. I tipped them with cash except in one case where I just didn't have bills small enough (wasn't thinking).
This is nice.
I agree that this is nice. I travel often with big luggages and always appreciate when drivers got out and helped loading in and out of the car. Tipping via the app makes my life easier as I don't need to worry about carrying small bills anymore. But if I have small bills, I will give them cash instead.
Terrible decision. Tipping is harmful culture in the long term. It leads to employees (drivers in this case) being paid less than they should be "because they will be tipped anyway" and it gives customers anxiety about tipping. Plus, the employees will start to expect tipping or treat you badly, especially if their employers consider tipping as part of their salary.
Just a lose-lose situation.
Just a lose-lose situation.
One of my favorite things about Uber was not having to deal with tipping. Pay them a fair wage with fair prices.
The main reason I use Uber is so I dont have to get into this weird passive-aggressive social situation with drivers over tips. Just raise the prices. Tipping my uber driver is like tipping my McDonalds teller. If pay is an issue just raise prices.
Tipping is just something abused to keep base prices low. It makes no sense outside of dishonest pricing schemes.
Also do these drivers really want me to base my tip on the quality of their driving? I find most uber and cab drivers are unsafe and frankly, shitty drivers.
Tipping is just something abused to keep base prices low. It makes no sense outside of dishonest pricing schemes.
Also do these drivers really want me to base my tip on the quality of their driving? I find most uber and cab drivers are unsafe and frankly, shitty drivers.
I don't like the idea. Many will feel like they have to tip.
This is one of the orginal features that helped drive customers away from cabs.
This is one of the orginal features that helped drive customers away from cabs.
This is a really terrible idea.
It's not that the drivers don't deserve money- far from it. It's that you now have a company that is desperate for cash, and it is the one who tells the drivers how much they made in tips. What's to stop them from skimming the tips? Oh, not too much, not enough that anyone can really point it out, but just a little bit, right?
And let's not all pretend that a company as morally grey as Uber isn't willing to do it either. They'll write some legal bullshit into the contract, force all drivers to either agree to it, or stop driving, and then claim that everything they did was legal and therefore ethical.
It's not that the drivers don't deserve money- far from it. It's that you now have a company that is desperate for cash, and it is the one who tells the drivers how much they made in tips. What's to stop them from skimming the tips? Oh, not too much, not enough that anyone can really point it out, but just a little bit, right?
And let's not all pretend that a company as morally grey as Uber isn't willing to do it either. They'll write some legal bullshit into the contract, force all drivers to either agree to it, or stop driving, and then claim that everything they did was legal and therefore ethical.
They don't need to skim off the top of tips, just follow what restaurants do, and cut back on wages, since 'they get tips too'
A rhetorical question: what would it take to build a not-for-profit but 'capitalist' platform like Uber with all the features that exist today (reviews, ratings, scheduled rides etc) where drivers just pay a monthly subscription fee (say $25-100 based on earnings?) and take the entire earnings of the ride?
I understand the marketing costs of getting drivers and riders on the platform but end of the day, if the drivers are going to make more and riders get a similar experience, it would be an obvious choice to switch, wouldn't it?
Put another way, why isn't anyone doing it? I hardly believe that Uber/Lyft's model has a wide defensible moat.
I understand the marketing costs of getting drivers and riders on the platform but end of the day, if the drivers are going to make more and riders get a similar experience, it would be an obvious choice to switch, wouldn't it?
Put another way, why isn't anyone doing it? I hardly believe that Uber/Lyft's model has a wide defensible moat.
Someone built it and it was discussed here:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13529213
http://libretaxi.org/
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13529213
http://libretaxi.org/
It does have a wide defensible moat: Critical mass. Drivers won't use the app if there are only a handful of rides per day, and passengers won't use the app if the nearest car is 15 minutes away.
It appears as a wide moat but I'd wager that in reality it's not. The key factor being unlike most networks, economics rule Uber and Lyft's platforms. That's a massive incentive. If as a rider, I can get a $5 ride for $4 with a similar experience and the driver knows he can make every last penny of that $4 (instead of $3), I don't see why eventually it wouldn't convince them to switch.
A taxi-ride futures exchange
I really liked Uber's no-tip policy as it really did make the whole experience frictionless.
That being said, I believe Lyft pools tips from riders to avoid a tit-for-tat ratings, and drivers to not know if a rider tipped for a particular trip. If Uber follows that model, then perhaps this is a reasonable middle ground.
That being said, I believe Lyft pools tips from riders to avoid a tit-for-tat ratings, and drivers to not know if a rider tipped for a particular trip. If Uber follows that model, then perhaps this is a reasonable middle ground.
Unpopular opinion: I hate the tipping culture but I love this change. Here's why: I never rate the drivers right after the trip unless the ride is REALLY good or REALLY bad. If it's really bad, I want to express my anger. If it's really good, I want to give the driver compliments. 90% of the times when I get out of an Uber, I just ignore the app until next time I use it. So to me personally, this is completely different from regular tipping.
I always preferred Uber to Lyft because of no tips.
Funny, I prefer Lyft because tips are optional, and since it's integrated in app, I never have a Lyft driver begging for a cash tip.
I think I'd just rather 'tip' the taxi directorate instead. This completely changes the Uber experience.
Ah. Tipping enforcement everywhere. And those who oppose the compulsion are branded cheap.
If you've ever talked to a driver this is the thing they always say they want Uber to change. Props to Uber for listening, even if it took them a while.
What if they just got paid more?
Tipping, if done right, is a better solution. Some fraction of customers today want to tip without being prompted as an expression of gratitude or appreciation. Some fraction of those customers don't have cash and are then unable to tip their drivers because the app didn't provide a mechanism to do that.
This gives riders that option without hurting Uber's bottom line. Paying drivers more is all well and good, but an increase in fares on the rider side would reduce marketplace demand and might actually hurt drivers more than it would help. The alternative is for Uber to eat the cost of paying drivers more, but that simply isn't viable for a company that's already losing as much money Uber does. Put simply, Uber is a business that can't really afford to pay drivers more.
There's a lot that could go wrong with tipping and it remains to be seen whether Uber rolls this out everywhere, but it's possible that this could end up being a feature where everyone wins.
This gives riders that option without hurting Uber's bottom line. Paying drivers more is all well and good, but an increase in fares on the rider side would reduce marketplace demand and might actually hurt drivers more than it would help. The alternative is for Uber to eat the cost of paying drivers more, but that simply isn't viable for a company that's already losing as much money Uber does. Put simply, Uber is a business that can't really afford to pay drivers more.
There's a lot that could go wrong with tipping and it remains to be seen whether Uber rolls this out everywhere, but it's possible that this could end up being a feature where everyone wins.
Everyone wins except the riders. And possibly the countries where there's no absurd tipping culture and that starts to encourage it.
Because of political restrictions of the number of taxi medallions to only 13,000 for a city of 8.5 million, taxi rates in NYC were extremely high compared with the rest of the nation. Taxi medallions were worth $1.2 million benefiting owners of medallions and credit unions that offered mortgages on them.
For example, Uber is 90 cents per mile in Chicago, but twice that at $1.75 mile in New York.
When Uber/Lyft came along to relieve the politically induced shortage while easily able to improve customer value by offering more vehicles and at lower prices, the value of medallions went to $700,000 or less and drivers stopped driving Yellow Cabs choosing Uber/Lyft instead.
Apparently, people are not required to tip, nor can they receive a bad score if they don't.
But Uber sold customers a bill of goods which said that tips were automatically included in the fare, not that there are no tips.
For example, Uber is 90 cents per mile in Chicago, but twice that at $1.75 mile in New York.
When Uber/Lyft came along to relieve the politically induced shortage while easily able to improve customer value by offering more vehicles and at lower prices, the value of medallions went to $700,000 or less and drivers stopped driving Yellow Cabs choosing Uber/Lyft instead.
Apparently, people are not required to tip, nor can they receive a bad score if they don't.
But Uber sold customers a bill of goods which said that tips were automatically included in the fare, not that there are no tips.
screw this; charge a fair price and pay people a fair amount. Relying on the random generosity of customers to pay your employees/contractors/indentured-servants a fair wage is a bullshit business model (yes, I am aware this is how the restaurant industry in the US survives).
Tipping is the consequence of making your working class earn below the living wage.
Look, you can't have demand based pricing AND tipping. If you think I'm adding 20% onto a 2.5x surge fare, you're out of your damn mind.
The pricing is dynamic based on supply and demand. If the fares are too low, that means there's too many drivers and not enough riders. So, if it's not worth it at that time...don't drive. Prices will go up until drivers decide it's worthwhile to drive. If they're out they're driving, that means they've decided the price available at the time is worth it to them.
The pricing is dynamic based on supply and demand. If the fares are too low, that means there's too many drivers and not enough riders. So, if it's not worth it at that time...don't drive. Prices will go up until drivers decide it's worthwhile to drive. If they're out they're driving, that means they've decided the price available at the time is worth it to them.
This news has ruined my day. The sooner we get autonomous cars the better.
Just to get this straight: people were OK with the abductions, assault and stalkings; opposition research and personal threats against journalists; distasteful and probably illegal practices against competitors like booking fake rides; illegal surveillance of officials charge with regulating them; predatory surge pricing; classifying workers as independent contractors to avoid paying benefits or following fair employment laws; ties to Trump; rampant sexual harassment and toxic bro culture...
But tipping is a deal breaker.
But tipping is a deal breaker.
"Why Tipping Should Be Banned", by Adam Ruins Everything is worth watching if you are of the school of thought that tipping is bad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_vivC7c_1k
The gist of the video is that if you're tipping, then a waiter/waitress for example is not being paid enough, and tips are deliberately designed to bolster their unfair income.
The gist of the video is that if you're tipping, then a waiter/waitress for example is not being paid enough, and tips are deliberately designed to bolster their unfair income.
This change probably won't make me any more or less likely to use Uber. The main thing that keeps me away from Uber is their terrible UX.
Getting a ride is way too streamlined - every single time I have used the Uber app (infrequently), I was not sure if I had committed to requesting a ride yet. This is the most annoying thing. Also there is no obvious means of scheduling a pickup time.
Lyft UX is a lot better and the company seems to not be run by assholes, so I like to support that whenever I can.
Getting a ride is way too streamlined - every single time I have used the Uber app (infrequently), I was not sure if I had committed to requesting a ride yet. This is the most annoying thing. Also there is no obvious means of scheduling a pickup time.
Lyft UX is a lot better and the company seems to not be run by assholes, so I like to support that whenever I can.
How does this make Uber the nice guy if the riders tip drivers, not Uber? Uber still takes a cut of up to 25% of the fare. Anyway, riders can always tip drivers with small cash.
Hate this as a consumer.
I can see this potentially leading to a lot of poor ratings for riders who don't tip enough. And "enough" in cities like New York is IMO totally skewed..
I hope they implement it in a way that prevents this behavior; e.g. show aggregate tip stats to drivers, make tip amount visible only after rider rating.
Then there will be a "suggested tip". Then Uber will try to take a cut.
They were winning by just screwing the drivers out of tips -- it was never actually factored into the fares. I have no car and always use Uber so this is not good for me but it is less unfair to Uber drivers.
Was tipping included for Uber Eats? That's where it was definitely needed. I don't think it's a great feature for the ride service, though.
Is there a non-washingtongpost link?
The fact they block their entire site if you use an ad-blocker is ridiculous and makes me want to have an alternate source every time.
The fact they block their entire site if you use an ad-blocker is ridiculous and makes me want to have an alternate source every time.
I don't think they do? I use ABP and the only time I can't view their site is when I've used up my 10 free articles for the month.
In restaurants, when a waiter is tipped, the kitchen gets part of the money. How would that work with Uber? Will programmers receive part of the tip money?
>In restaurants, when a waiter is tipped, the kitchen gets part of the money.
That practice is highly dependent on the restaurant and locale. In many places, it's illegal to require the waitstaff to pool tips with the kitchen.
https://www.eater.com/2016/2/26/11119264/restaurants-tip-poo...
That practice is highly dependent on the restaurant and locale. In many places, it's illegal to require the waitstaff to pool tips with the kitchen.
https://www.eater.com/2016/2/26/11119264/restaurants-tip-poo...
Not always. Depends on the restaurant.
Not usually; it's illegal to require a tipout to the kitchen in the US:
http://www.restaurantbusinessonline.com/operations/advice-gu...
http://www.restaurantbusinessonline.com/operations/advice-gu...
This might be region dependent, but was not true at any restaurant in the US I've worked at. Sometimes, bar staff and busboys were tipped out (at a much lower percent than what the wait staff kept), but I've never seen kitchen employees get tipped out.
Awful, absolutely terrible.
Translation:
"We will no longer pay our drivers, we will guilt you into doing it."
Translation:
"We will no longer pay our drivers, we will guilt you into doing it."
Wow. There are a lot of people in here that have never worked in the Services industry or done the math for an Uber driver's take home pay after taxes/gas/maintenance.
It's ironic how the same people who say they don't mind paying a higher price vs tips, are choosing Uber because they are cheaper than a Lyft/Taxi.
It's ironic how the same people who say they don't mind paying a higher price vs tips, are choosing Uber because they are cheaper than a Lyft/Taxi.
I don't take Uber because it's cheaper ... I take it so I don't have to worry about a "broken" credit card reader, getting an accurate receipt, or worrying about what is considered a "fair" tip. With Uber, I assume if the driver accepts the trip, then they are okay with their cut from Uber.
I'd easily use NYC taxis if they had an app and payment system as convenient as Uber's. I HATE having to tip, but wouldn't mind paying higher to have it included in the price; I also abhor the taxi TV nonsense blaring in NYC cabs.
I never used Uber when I lived in NYC, its actually more work than hailing a cab there IMO.
This is an anecdote, but I do not choose an Uber because it is less expensive. I choose Uber because it is easier than hailing a taxi. It provides more certainty. You dont need to fight other people on the street for a taxi. You dont need to wait 30minutes for a cab to arrive (or never arrive) despite the dispatcher saying "5 minutes." You dont need to begrudgingly hand a $20 note for a $6 ride to a cabbie who "doesn't have change." You can reimburse corporate trips because the cabbie is never out of receipts. There are so many reasons I use Uber rather than traditional taxis.
Why do you think those are the same people?
Well, there goes the only thing I thought Uber did better than Lyft.
Tipping ruins the rating system. Just flat out destroys it.
If people want to tip -- use cash.
Now that we can track driving habits, would it not make sense to put them all on salary and set standards for employment?
After thousands of uber tips, 100% of my drivers have said they enjoy the freedom and ability to work when and where they want without commitment. Employment destroys all of that and would mean many of them would lose this income source.
If people do want to drive full-time, that job already exists. There are numerous places to work as a commercial driver. In fact, Uber Black leverages exactly this and is routinely serviced by companies that employee full-time drivers.
The fact that many drivers don't choose to be full-time professional drivers is far more telling than the tiny but whiny minority that seem to not realize what rideshare driving is.
If people do want to drive full-time, that job already exists. There are numerous places to work as a commercial driver. In fact, Uber Black leverages exactly this and is routinely serviced by companies that employee full-time drivers.
The fact that many drivers don't choose to be full-time professional drivers is far more telling than the tiny but whiny minority that seem to not realize what rideshare driving is.
[deleted]
Cute little narrative you got going there but I don't see any evidence from the article to support it.
Since tipping is not actually "politically correct," it's racist, sexist, and classist (1), it's a big lose for the advocates you blame.
It seemed they were under pressure from regulators, not social justice activates. I think this is the money quote
>Conigliaro said the guild forced the introduction of tipping by putting pressure on regulators. New York’s Taxi and Limousine Commission is weighing a proposal that would require in-app tipping, and is expected to hear reaction from riders and drivers at a public hearing on July 13.
They also introduced some sort of surcharge for teens as part of this change, so you believe thats also the fault of "social justice" too?
(1) https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/18/i-dar...
http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic...
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/minimum-wage-activists-cal...
Since tipping is not actually "politically correct," it's racist, sexist, and classist (1), it's a big lose for the advocates you blame.
It seemed they were under pressure from regulators, not social justice activates. I think this is the money quote
>Conigliaro said the guild forced the introduction of tipping by putting pressure on regulators. New York’s Taxi and Limousine Commission is weighing a proposal that would require in-app tipping, and is expected to hear reaction from riders and drivers at a public hearing on July 13.
They also introduced some sort of surcharge for teens as part of this change, so you believe thats also the fault of "social justice" too?
(1) https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/18/i-dar...
http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic...
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/minimum-wage-activists-cal...
> Cute little narrative you got going [...] You're the one [...] you deserve to be called out
Your comments have been crossed into incivility frequently in a way that violates the site rules. We ban accounts that do this repeatedly. Please edit such bits out of your posts to HN.
Instead, please be respectful and assume good faith when disagreeing, regardless of how wrong someone else may be. Even if you don't feel you owe better to them, you owe it to the community not to damage the commons.
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14600765 and marked it off-topic.
Your comments have been crossed into incivility frequently in a way that violates the site rules. We ban accounts that do this repeatedly. Please edit such bits out of your posts to HN.
Instead, please be respectful and assume good faith when disagreeing, regardless of how wrong someone else may be. Even if you don't feel you owe better to them, you owe it to the community not to damage the commons.
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14600765 and marked it off-topic.
I think you make great points, thank you.
Only regrettable thing is the phrase "cute little narrative" you used. The comment would have been excellent even without pulling me down.
I think the point i was trying to make was that it's sad that Uber is making decisions that are against user experience. They used to be able to push through all this because users loved the product. But nowadays they've lost a lot of power because of all the controversies. The reason Uber became popular in the first place was because they built something that was great for the users. If they cared about these little regulations back then, they wouldn't be here and we would still be stuck with the shitty taxi system.
I remember when startup people used to look up to Uber as the poster child for being ruthless just to provide great user experience. Now the narrative has changed even though they are not doing anything different. The new narrative is that Uber is a law breaking sexist organization, and everybody likes to hate Uber.
If Uber still had the same reputation as back then, I don't think they would be introducing features like this, which a lot of people will hate.
Only regrettable thing is the phrase "cute little narrative" you used. The comment would have been excellent even without pulling me down.
I think the point i was trying to make was that it's sad that Uber is making decisions that are against user experience. They used to be able to push through all this because users loved the product. But nowadays they've lost a lot of power because of all the controversies. The reason Uber became popular in the first place was because they built something that was great for the users. If they cared about these little regulations back then, they wouldn't be here and we would still be stuck with the shitty taxi system.
I remember when startup people used to look up to Uber as the poster child for being ruthless just to provide great user experience. Now the narrative has changed even though they are not doing anything different. The new narrative is that Uber is a law breaking sexist organization, and everybody likes to hate Uber.
If Uber still had the same reputation as back then, I don't think they would be introducing features like this, which a lot of people will hate.
You're the one who started with unjustly accusing a completely unrelated group of bullying, of all things; you deserve to be called out for it.
[deleted]
WOW! This must've taken a monumental amount of effort, thought, and engineering. Why else did it take so long to add tipping? Bravo, Uber. Still goes to show a massive startup can still innovate. -slow clap-
I've already been tipping Uber/Lyft drivers in cash since I first used either service.
I'm not sure how I feel about Uber being able to collect data on tip collection.
I'm not sure how I feel about Uber being able to collect data on tip collection.
I'll break-down tipping for the neophytes.
Yes, by George Orwell's account, tipping was considered repugnant by no less than the anarchist defenders of Catalonia in the Spanish Civil War. But you feel bad not tipping when expected and you want to know what to do.
1. Tip your bartender at least $1/drink. Maybe tip $3 if you got two drinks. Maybe $2 for one of it's something fancy. 2. In SF, tip your waiter 20% for good service, 15% for adequate service. 3. Tip at least $5 for delivery. If a bartender gets $1 for handing you a beer, the delivery person deserves $5 for driving to your home and bailing you out of cooking. 4. Tip $2 for an adequate Lyft/Uber. $1 if you feel pinched.
When to tip more? Like being in love, you'll just know.
Yes, by George Orwell's account, tipping was considered repugnant by no less than the anarchist defenders of Catalonia in the Spanish Civil War. But you feel bad not tipping when expected and you want to know what to do.
1. Tip your bartender at least $1/drink. Maybe tip $3 if you got two drinks. Maybe $2 for one of it's something fancy. 2. In SF, tip your waiter 20% for good service, 15% for adequate service. 3. Tip at least $5 for delivery. If a bartender gets $1 for handing you a beer, the delivery person deserves $5 for driving to your home and bailing you out of cooking. 4. Tip $2 for an adequate Lyft/Uber. $1 if you feel pinched.
When to tip more? Like being in love, you'll just know.
Trying to decide if you should talk to your driver? Let them take the lead. If they launch into talking, and you feel like talking too, go for it! If they're quiet, let them work. Worried they're only talking to you for the money? Try to find out what their interests are and engage them. None of this should impact your tipping decision.
My tipping practice for Lyft/Uber has been that it's optional, as it is for most. It's stated directly in the Lyft app. I tip more or less about 20% of the time, all for something that goes beyond simply going from A to B. Otherwise, on point.
Tipping helps people who need it.
It is simple. Voluntary. Binary.
A $1 or $2 tip may not seem like much, but if it gets saved (which often tip receivers do) it adds up. Like found money.
Do uber drivers make a lot? Could $1 $2 $3 help them?
It is not about guilt. It's not about service quality. It is not about greater things. It is about helping someone who most likely needs it.
You could get on a high horse and make grandiose statements - all for a few dollars!!
Tip receivers know the types that never tip. And types that tip big. And types that cant afford to tip.
Dont over think Tipping.
I never wish anyone financial hardship but if you ever experience it you will know how greatful a small or large tip helps.
It is simple. Voluntary. Binary.
A $1 or $2 tip may not seem like much, but if it gets saved (which often tip receivers do) it adds up. Like found money.
Do uber drivers make a lot? Could $1 $2 $3 help them?
It is not about guilt. It's not about service quality. It is not about greater things. It is about helping someone who most likely needs it.
You could get on a high horse and make grandiose statements - all for a few dollars!!
Tip receivers know the types that never tip. And types that tip big. And types that cant afford to tip.
Dont over think Tipping.
I never wish anyone financial hardship but if you ever experience it you will know how greatful a small or large tip helps.
Tipping exists because employers (in this case Uber) don't pay enough. Not tipping once you are already stuck with that system doesn't solve anything, but expanding that system makes things worse.
Uber repeatedly and forcefully reminds the world that it does not employ its drivers, they are independent contractors to whom Uber is providing a service: matchmaking with riders.
According to Uber, when you get in a car, that driver is actually working for you.
According to Uber, when you get in a car, that driver is actually working for you.
When I use Uber, I want to get from A to B and the driver is paid for doing exactly that. I have no problem tipping people who do something outside of their duty, but I don't see why should I decide how much extra to pay for what Uber should already be paying.
I understand your thoughts.
You do noy have to pay extra. You bring your lifes experiences on your drive.
You intersect with a person who may need a few extra bucks. A second job. A displaced older man. A parent trying to manage caring for pre-school aged kids. An immigrant making extra to help his family.
Now. You have a chance to help this person. That is ALL a tip is.
People from the school of hard knocks tip more and "get it"
But you never HAVE to tip
You do noy have to pay extra. You bring your lifes experiences on your drive.
You intersect with a person who may need a few extra bucks. A second job. A displaced older man. A parent trying to manage caring for pre-school aged kids. An immigrant making extra to help his family.
Now. You have a chance to help this person. That is ALL a tip is.
People from the school of hard knocks tip more and "get it"
But you never HAVE to tip
I wish this comment was higher.
I think it's a bummer to see developers who make way over the national median income complain they "don't want to think" about maybe giving a couple extra bucks to people who could use it.
I think it's a bummer to see developers who make way over the national median income complain they "don't want to think" about maybe giving a couple extra bucks to people who could use it.
It's not about a few extra bucks, that's not the big issue with tipping. I would be completely fine if a service costed 30%-50% more if that meant the employees would get paid a decent wage.
The onus should be on the employers -- not on the employees and the customer to figure it out.
I hate tipping. The whole experience of it just sucks in every way. It doesn't bring joy to anyone. Both parties lose. The service provider constantly has to worry about tips and have no consistency in income. If they were paid a normal livable wage, then they wouldn't have to worry about this. For the customer, the whole process of purchasing a product is made more painful and more complicated - unnecessarily.
The onus should be on the employers -- not on the employees and the customer to figure it out.
I hate tipping. The whole experience of it just sucks in every way. It doesn't bring joy to anyone. Both parties lose. The service provider constantly has to worry about tips and have no consistency in income. If they were paid a normal livable wage, then they wouldn't have to worry about this. For the customer, the whole process of purchasing a product is made more painful and more complicated - unnecessarily.
It's literally tapping one extra button in the app UI. I'm really surprised at how hard this seems to people.
How do I know what to tip? How do I estimate before getting an uber how much it's going to cost? Tipping is the worst part of visiting the US. You go to restaurant and the menu for your meal says $x, but it's not $x, it's $x plus taxes plus tips. As a consumer I just want to know up front how much something is going to cost. No other country in the world makes this as ridiculously hard. And if you screw it up your "cheapskate".
This thread is full of people who work in technology, who think of themselves as smart capable people, complaining bitterly about choosing between 15%, 20%, or 25% in an app.
Just tap the middle option. You can't go wrong, and your driver will have a slightly better life than otherwise.
Just tap the middle option. You can't go wrong, and your driver will have a slightly better life than otherwise.
Why not just increase prices by 30% and pay the driver more? That was it’s a better exper for everyone involved.
That's the whole point : people who could use it should just be paid decently from starter. Tipping is just an unnecessary social pressure, and if you read what people actually say, this is not about the few bucks it costs, it is specifically about the practice which introduce doubt and insincerity in what should be a dead simple process.
Increase the prices, and pay people decently, but don't tip.
Increase the prices, and pay people decently, but don't tip.
>> I think it's a bummer to see developers who make way over the national median income complain they "don't want to think" about maybe giving a couple extra bucks to people who could use it.
Numerous comments here are indeed suggesting "don't make me think" but to be fair they are also suggesting higher prices and wages for drivers. They are not saying "don't want to pay", they just want to not think about it and rather let it be part of the payment formula in the first place.
Numerous comments here are indeed suggesting "don't make me think" but to be fair they are also suggesting higher prices and wages for drivers. They are not saying "don't want to pay", they just want to not think about it and rather let it be part of the payment formula in the first place.
My perspective is that, if I think drivers should be paid more, tipping gives me the capability to make that real for my drivers.
The model of Uber is in fact that the driver is an independent service provider to me, the rider. Uber is just the matchmaker. So if I want my driver to make more, I pay them more.
I think the mindset of "I won't tip but at least I think Uber should pay their drivers more" is just rationalization. Merely thinking things in our heads doesn't change anything.
The model of Uber is in fact that the driver is an independent service provider to me, the rider. Uber is just the matchmaker. So if I want my driver to make more, I pay them more.
I think the mindset of "I won't tip but at least I think Uber should pay their drivers more" is just rationalization. Merely thinking things in our heads doesn't change anything.
The commenters (including me) are not saying "Uber should pay their drivers more" they are actively suggesting increasing the price of the rides so more money goes to drivers (who make a % of the price.) They are advocating for higher prices overall so drivers get more money.
Also, higher prices are more fair. Ask anyone who waits tables and you learn pretty people make more in tips. It isnt fair. I dont know firsthand but I imagine someone with an accent might make less. Formulaic prices for rides seem to me a far more fair way to compensate drivers than the whims of individuals.
Also, higher prices are more fair. Ask anyone who waits tables and you learn pretty people make more in tips. It isnt fair. I dont know firsthand but I imagine someone with an accent might make less. Formulaic prices for rides seem to me a far more fair way to compensate drivers than the whims of individuals.
If anything is wrong it is that the starting point for salary/service was too low.
Paying a really good wage was not done.
Why shoudnt an Amazon worker or a delivery person make $75-100k. The investors and ceo make multiples more.
So we live in the sysyem we have now.
Paying a really good wage was not done.
Why shoudnt an Amazon worker or a delivery person make $75-100k. The investors and ceo make multiples more.
So we live in the sysyem we have now.
I used to never tip. I thought of tipping as a review of their work. Good service:18% ok service:10% crappy service: lousy tip.
Then i got displaced. Bartending introduced me to the tipping "infrastructure" and lifestyle.
Then making deliveries.
I think developers just can't feel until my way about tipping until they lose their jobs.
It is not they are assholes - just not worldly.
Then i got displaced. Bartending introduced me to the tipping "infrastructure" and lifestyle.
Then making deliveries.
I think developers just can't feel until my way about tipping until they lose their jobs.
It is not they are assholes - just not worldly.
I find it quite ironic that the majority of comments here seem to be against this addition and switching more people to Lyft who haven't already switched for moral reasons. By trying to become a better company and treat drivers better, they scared off the customers who didn't care about that. I'm sure this will get downvoted because I'm implying that people already should have switched for moral reasons, and a lot of people don't care apparently, even when many here can financially afford to pay more.
All of these anti-tipping comments clearly have not used Lyft. The Lyft culture versus Uber's from a passenger perspective is so much better. No, you don't have forced conversations like people here think will happen. People forget that Lyft was originally pushing being the more authentic company from the start. In my experience, the drivers respect this too, and almost every driver I've talked to prefers Lyft riders (even when I'm taking an Uber due to Lyft unavailability).
The tipping option means I can pay my driver more if he helps me unload a bunch of luggage/boxes (I've had to take an Uber to a storage facility years ago and had to use a 3rd party credit swipe app to tip my driver for all the extra work) or some other scenario. There's no tipping mention in Lyft rides, while I've seen it often in Uber rides. It's there for when you need it, and isn't something I really consider much. Is 1 second of thinking really too much? Efficiency isn't that important people.
I agree that tipping ambiguity is a pain sometimes. The remedy is taking the 3-5 min to learn the culture for common tipping scenarios. If you spend that time, the answer is pretty clear here. The feature comes in handy far more than it causes pain, speaking from the epxerience of myself and others.
All of these anti-tipping comments clearly have not used Lyft. The Lyft culture versus Uber's from a passenger perspective is so much better. No, you don't have forced conversations like people here think will happen. People forget that Lyft was originally pushing being the more authentic company from the start. In my experience, the drivers respect this too, and almost every driver I've talked to prefers Lyft riders (even when I'm taking an Uber due to Lyft unavailability).
The tipping option means I can pay my driver more if he helps me unload a bunch of luggage/boxes (I've had to take an Uber to a storage facility years ago and had to use a 3rd party credit swipe app to tip my driver for all the extra work) or some other scenario. There's no tipping mention in Lyft rides, while I've seen it often in Uber rides. It's there for when you need it, and isn't something I really consider much. Is 1 second of thinking really too much? Efficiency isn't that important people.
I agree that tipping ambiguity is a pain sometimes. The remedy is taking the 3-5 min to learn the culture for common tipping scenarios. If you spend that time, the answer is pretty clear here. The feature comes in handy far more than it causes pain, speaking from the epxerience of myself and others.
> By trying to become a better company and treat drivers better
If you actually read the complaints here, the vast majority are against the manner of the pay increase, not the increase itself. If you're going to pretend that complaints against this are complaints against drivers' benefit, you need a reason that an across-the-board, no-Uber-commission pay rise wouldn't have done the same thing without making the product shittier.
If you actually read the complaints here, the vast majority are against the manner of the pay increase, not the increase itself. If you're going to pretend that complaints against this are complaints against drivers' benefit, you need a reason that an across-the-board, no-Uber-commission pay rise wouldn't have done the same thing without making the product shittier.
I did read the complaints here, and many seem to be missing the point of why they added this. I don't think it was to increase driver pay directly, but to add a feature that Lyft has that many enjoyed. That and probably a perception of treating drivers better for PR reasons. Obviously they could also pay them better, but this is a positive step.
A better tipping system is better than nothing at all. A drop in the bucket far too late, but as a Lyft user, I find the tipping system to be better on both sides.
Furthermore, a lot of comments are just against tipping in general, and a worse experience on both sides with tipping in this case. My post is arguing against that notion from experience.
A better tipping system is better than nothing at all. A drop in the bucket far too late, but as a Lyft user, I find the tipping system to be better on both sides.
Furthermore, a lot of comments are just against tipping in general, and a worse experience on both sides with tipping in this case. My post is arguing against that notion from experience.
Sorry but I find Lyft irrelevant because the writing is on the wall. They will not exist as an independent company in the next decade. Any culture that get may have will die if GM gets control of the company.
1. It doesn't look like Uber will at this point either. Lyft is partnered with Waymo already - seems like pre-acquisition to me.
2. You cite zero evidence. Your speculation isn't very convincing from what I have seen anecdotally, which it seems like is all you're going off of. To me, Lyft is surging in popularity in the US and is on the upward trend as everyone jumps ship from Uber, drivers and riders alike.
2. You cite zero evidence. Your speculation isn't very convincing from what I have seen anecdotally, which it seems like is all you're going off of. To me, Lyft is surging in popularity in the US and is on the upward trend as everyone jumps ship from Uber, drivers and riders alike.
Sorry for being so cynical. I'm sure Lyft will continue to exist in some form but I fear it will have the same amount of culture and values left as Costco would should it get acquired by some evil Corp like Walmart.
What I loved about Uber when it started was there was no ambiguity. Prices were predictable, as were wait times.
Zero cognitive overhead. No guilt or internal debate.
Over time every little thing I loved about Uber was taken away in the name of lowering prices. Agitation about driver wait times. Wildly fluctuating cost of rides. Wildly varying rider wait times. Drivers canceling undesirable trips.
And now tips.
It's just one little thing, but it's the death of what I valued in their service.
What if instead of all these nitpicking changes, they kept the fares a bit higher and simply paid the drivers a bit more? I guess in their calculus that was unsustainable.
So basically the people who were penny pinching trying to get the cheapest rides drove lower prices so now I will tip (probably too well) and underwrite those same people who will likely also not tip because they will decide it is optional.