Don’t Quit When It Gets Hard(dariusforoux.com)
dariusforoux.com
Don’t Quit When It Gets Hard
http://dariusforoux.com/i-quit/
150 comments
Someone from our office just died over the weekend, we all found out about an hour ago. They were the type of person that essentially spent their waking hours working for this company. Crack of dawn up, and last to leave, working after hours, and on weekends.
I'm betting in their final hour they didn't wish they were still at work, or got more hours in. Busting your ass working IS a waste of life. You can be passionate about your work, but don't be ridiculous. You're only here once.
I'm betting in their final hour they didn't wish they were still at work, or got more hours in. Busting your ass working IS a waste of life. You can be passionate about your work, but don't be ridiculous. You're only here once.
I guess young people in startups don't have the opportunity to watch many exceptional and truly irreplaceable colleagues retiring ... and being completely forgotten the next week.
Even Apple sells more iPhone with Jobs gone.
Even Apple sells more iPhone with Jobs gone.
I get what you're saying, but in the article the guy is working towards a life goal - to work for himself, not for someone else.
I co-founded a startup with 2 other people and really regret that I didn't quit before the thing kind of imploded after 2 years. I was one of the worst experiences in my life and at the beginning I thought like this guy: oh yeah, life is not tough enough, it needs to get harder so it's challenging and I get somewhere. I wish I had failed fast and left this horrible experience after 3 months.
I'd love to hear more people like you (and me :-) ) Honesty about failures (whatever the reason) lacks so much down here and is so reassuring (when the "whatever" reason is outside oneself)...
Sure, but my statement stands. Life is about balance.
For you maybe. Probably not for Elon Musk.
There are only a few people per century at the level of Elon Musk. This isn't the same discussion.
[citation needed] There are, of course, many people "at the level" of Elon Musk. (I don't mean that flippantly, either.)
Sounds like you have that citation already on hand. Give me that list of many people doing the equivalent of sending people to Mars, changing the auto industry, and building an alternative energy empire.
> doing the equivalent of sending people to Mars
Musk isn't doing that. He likes to talk about it but there are many decades of work before it becomes viable (if it ever does.)
Musk isn't doing that. He likes to talk about it but there are many decades of work before it becomes viable (if it ever does.)
> Busting your ass working IS a waste of life.
Maybe, maybe not. That's your opinion because the only source of truth here is your own feelings.
> You can be passionate about your work, but don't be ridiculous.
You can be whatever you want and if you're fine with that, then great. Everybody is different. Average people/workers/earners obviously think and behave differently than those who are above average.
> You're only here once.
...as far as you know.
Maybe, maybe not. That's your opinion because the only source of truth here is your own feelings.
> You can be passionate about your work, but don't be ridiculous.
You can be whatever you want and if you're fine with that, then great. Everybody is different. Average people/workers/earners obviously think and behave differently than those who are above average.
> You're only here once.
...as far as you know.
Statistics routinely prove the majority of people feel they are an “above average” driver. I imagine the same is true of being “above average” in life for their situation.
OP’s post is about those times when your feeling that you’re “above average” is questioned, by those times when facts strongly suggest you’re not.
What then? Quitters quit. That’s not good, right? Persistence wins, graft often beats talent.
But statistics also show the majority of investors (amateur & professional) hold their losses too long and sell their winnings too early. They failed to learn when to quit.
It’s complicated, for sure.
(“Fail fast” - is that quitting?)
OP’s post is about those times when your feeling that you’re “above average” is questioned, by those times when facts strongly suggest you’re not.
What then? Quitters quit. That’s not good, right? Persistence wins, graft often beats talent.
But statistics also show the majority of investors (amateur & professional) hold their losses too long and sell their winnings too early. They failed to learn when to quit.
It’s complicated, for sure.
(“Fail fast” - is that quitting?)
No, that's a fact. No one on their death bed has wished they worked more. They wished they spent more time with family/friends/traveling/vacations/reading/sports/whatever. Working until you died is what slaves did.
I'm not on my death bed, but I wish to hell and back I could work more. I'm sick to death of being poor. I'm broke today. I hate it so fucking much.
Half of that equation is that I have health issues, so sometimes I am just too sick to work. The other half seems to be that I am a woman, so good luck getting taken seriously.
I spend a lot of my time wishing I were dead because being unable to get enough work is such a shitastic experience. So, you know, speak for yourself. The feminization of poverty is real. Working to benefit other people without getting paid for it is the actual definition of what slaves do. It also nicely sums up what traditional women's work is all about, which most women still do the lion's share of.
Half of that equation is that I have health issues, so sometimes I am just too sick to work. The other half seems to be that I am a woman, so good luck getting taken seriously.
I spend a lot of my time wishing I were dead because being unable to get enough work is such a shitastic experience. So, you know, speak for yourself. The feminization of poverty is real. Working to benefit other people without getting paid for it is the actual definition of what slaves do. It also nicely sums up what traditional women's work is all about, which most women still do the lion's share of.
If you want the traditional work experience for men with health issues, the equation is very simple. You "man up" and go to work and pretend that you are not sick, regardless of pain, fatigue or dizziness. You will be taken seriously, but only if you can hold up the perception of male persona with perfect health and strength. Otherwise you will not just loose the ability to be taken serious at work, but society in general will reject you.
I have done plenty of manning up. I paid down debt while improving my income while homeless. I also appear to be the only woman on the leaderboard of Hacker News, so I appear to get taken a helluva lot more seriously than most women. It still fails to translate to serious income, even though a recent resume job I did was for a CEO who indicated he knew me via Hacker News and I had impressed him.
Getting taken seriously for a woman is apparently still pretty damn pathetic. I would like to get taken seriously without such qualifiers. Such qualifiers are always a huge negative. Women only awards are basically a dunce cap with a crown drawn on it to pretty it up. They are akin to the Special Olympics. The fundamental message there is that "you can't really compete."
Getting taken seriously for a woman is apparently still pretty damn pathetic. I would like to get taken seriously without such qualifiers. Such qualifiers are always a huge negative. Women only awards are basically a dunce cap with a crown drawn on it to pretty it up. They are akin to the Special Olympics. The fundamental message there is that "you can't really compete."
The only one that can compete is the few lucky percent at top that have health and strength to do so. Manning up is not an achievement, it is a symptom of the core issue in cultural differences in how women and men are treated.
The general cultural view seen in for example health care is that men are assumed healthy and strong. This is great if you are that, but catastrophic if you aren't. Treatments get delayed, problems worsened, and in psychology there is a recognized problem of not seeing mental illness in men. For women its not perfect either. While assumed poor health do generally lead to faster treatment and better contact with the health care for women, the doctors don't believe in actually curing problems so health care for women has disproportionation amount of only addressing symptoms. In averages, some treatment is still better than no treatment which is reflected in the statistics and increased life span.
This pattern show up all the time in gender studies. Men end up as majority at the top and bottom of the charts, women at the middle. The fact that you are a woman should in average give you an advantage at work in comparison to men with same health issues, pushing you towards the middle. Men can pretend and hide the health issue for a while (ie manning up), but its unlikely to work and carries with it some major health risks, not to mention that shitastic experience. In all its a bad situation for everyone with health issues, regardless of gender.
The general cultural view seen in for example health care is that men are assumed healthy and strong. This is great if you are that, but catastrophic if you aren't. Treatments get delayed, problems worsened, and in psychology there is a recognized problem of not seeing mental illness in men. For women its not perfect either. While assumed poor health do generally lead to faster treatment and better contact with the health care for women, the doctors don't believe in actually curing problems so health care for women has disproportionation amount of only addressing symptoms. In averages, some treatment is still better than no treatment which is reflected in the statistics and increased life span.
This pattern show up all the time in gender studies. Men end up as majority at the top and bottom of the charts, women at the middle. The fact that you are a woman should in average give you an advantage at work in comparison to men with same health issues, pushing you towards the middle. Men can pretend and hide the health issue for a while (ie manning up), but its unlikely to work and carries with it some major health risks, not to mention that shitastic experience. In all its a bad situation for everyone with health issues, regardless of gender.
I have been working on both my health issues and my income. I have seen improvements in both.
To my mind, this is not terribly relevant to the issue I would like to see resolved. I have done all that. It hasn't exactly resulted in accolades, so to speak. In fact, it appears to me that I am so competent that people routinely think I am just making shit up. They think I am an egomaniac, liar, deluded or something along those lines.
I don't like where this conversation is going at all. I think my time would be better spent talking to myself in a corner in the form of blogging.
Adieu.
To my mind, this is not terribly relevant to the issue I would like to see resolved. I have done all that. It hasn't exactly resulted in accolades, so to speak. In fact, it appears to me that I am so competent that people routinely think I am just making shit up. They think I am an egomaniac, liar, deluded or something along those lines.
I don't like where this conversation is going at all. I think my time would be better spent talking to myself in a corner in the form of blogging.
Adieu.
nostromo123(1)
I’m a minority, had health issues in the past, tried to “man up”, still got some people not taking me seriously and thanks to politics it went viral anyway. What now?
Even though I understand what you’re saying, I’m being defensive here because every person’s case is unique and it’s not really fair to tell them to “man up”. We already know that, thanks, but most of the time it’s just not enough to improve the situation.
Even though I understand what you’re saying, I’m being defensive here because every person’s case is unique and it’s not really fair to tell them to “man up”. We already know that, thanks, but most of the time it’s just not enough to improve the situation.
I am not advocating that one should man up, quite the opposite. Ignoring health issues is a recipe for disaster, and no amount of short term gains in respect should be worth it.
The best I can advocate for is shared sympathy. Not only for the physical and mental pains, but also for the massive amount of economical trouble it brings. Studies on income difference between groups with different health status is massive and dwarfs anything which gender studies generally find. That should bring people together in common cause rather than splitting us up based on gender, race, religions or other extrinsic attribute.
The best I can advocate for is shared sympathy. Not only for the physical and mental pains, but also for the massive amount of economical trouble it brings. Studies on income difference between groups with different health status is massive and dwarfs anything which gender studies generally find. That should bring people together in common cause rather than splitting us up based on gender, race, religions or other extrinsic attribute.
Eh, you can't claim factually that this is true:
> No one on their death bed has wished they worked more.
Unless maybe you've personally interviewed everyone who has ever been on their death bed? I mean, if we're going to talk about things at a factual level...
The constructive point I'm trying to make is that this is shared cultural wisdom, not fact. I agree with it, actually, but we should not so quickly dismiss the alternative. I can see the appeal of living a life of singular purpose, especially if you are successful in leaving your mark on the world.
> No one on their death bed has wished they worked more.
Unless maybe you've personally interviewed everyone who has ever been on their death bed? I mean, if we're going to talk about things at a factual level...
The constructive point I'm trying to make is that this is shared cultural wisdom, not fact. I agree with it, actually, but we should not so quickly dismiss the alternative. I can see the appeal of living a life of singular purpose, especially if you are successful in leaving your mark on the world.
>> No matter what you do, it’s time to stop watching Netflix every night and browsing webshops for the newest clothes.
> I'm betting in their final hour they didn't wish they were still at work, or got more hours in.
The might feel better about the work they did than the time spent on netflix or buying clothes. Or the other way around. Or wish they put more time and energy elsewhere entirely. Everyone -- me included -- would probably benefit from thinking hard about such questions and adjusting their life accordingly if needed.
> I'm betting in their final hour they didn't wish they were still at work, or got more hours in.
The might feel better about the work they did than the time spent on netflix or buying clothes. Or the other way around. Or wish they put more time and energy elsewhere entirely. Everyone -- me included -- would probably benefit from thinking hard about such questions and adjusting their life accordingly if needed.
I'm sorry for your loss.
>> I'm betting in their final hour they didn't wish they were still at work, or got more hours in. Busting your ass working IS a waste of life. You can be passionate about your work, but don't be ridiculous. You're only here once.
Not everyone believes they are only here once, just to be devils advocate. Some of them believe they are commanded to "be joyful workers", or some paraphrase there of. There are a lot of people that work themselves to death, because they believe a divine entity commanded them to do so. Logical reasoning may be less than effective with this group of humans.
Not everyone believes they are only here once, just to be devils advocate. Some of them believe they are commanded to "be joyful workers", or some paraphrase there of. There are a lot of people that work themselves to death, because they believe a divine entity commanded them to do so. Logical reasoning may be less than effective with this group of humans.
> Logical reasoning may be less than effective with this group of humans.
Not sure the implied condescension is justified here. Some of history's great thinkers held that position. Different axioms lead logically to different conclusions. Dismissing differing views categorically as "illogical" isn't productive. Just to be devil's advocate.
Not sure the implied condescension is justified here. Some of history's great thinkers held that position. Different axioms lead logically to different conclusions. Dismissing differing views categorically as "illogical" isn't productive. Just to be devil's advocate.
In fact, once you assume you're incapable of having a coherent absolute viewpoint because you're a unit in a greater whole with an independent viewpoint of it's own and your infering abilities are limited by time and/or energy you essentially have to pick your own axioms and therefore you're certain you will arrive at different conclusions than someone else.
There's a market for performance shame in the blogosphere. We love to read about why we're not accomplishing enough and if we just neglected our need for rest (outside of sleep) we could achieve so much more than the person next to us. We often don't actually do it, but we somehow like being told how bad we are for not doing so.
That’s fine, but generally one isn’t going to be monetarily successful doing that. Which is cool, honestly we are collectively way too driven by that for it to be healthy for most of the population.
There are however way too many people who do this and wonder why they don’t get ahead. With few exceptions successful people spent their 20s hustling and their 30s polishing. Whether that’s lots of hours outside of the office coding, or sharpening social skills/building their network, and learning new skills of some sort.
If someone has relatively the same skillset at 32 that they had at 22, they’re going to have a rough time of it when they start building a life with a partner and have kids/parents to take care of.
There are however way too many people who do this and wonder why they don’t get ahead. With few exceptions successful people spent their 20s hustling and their 30s polishing. Whether that’s lots of hours outside of the office coding, or sharpening social skills/building their network, and learning new skills of some sort.
If someone has relatively the same skillset at 32 that they had at 22, they’re going to have a rough time of it when they start building a life with a partner and have kids/parents to take care of.
My point remains that evolving your skillset and being successful is not exclusive from spending your evenings at leisure.
[deleted]
I'd agree but only if you are doing your working hours (ie: you are doing 6-7 hours of productive work everyday). Otherwise, you might be just looking for any distractions to avoid work.
In theory, yes. But who among us is truly satisfied? I think not the kind of people who would be reading a self-help blog.
Reminds me of the fishermen story, actually.
- http://paulocoelhoblog.com/2015/09/04/the-fisherman-and-the-...
- http://paulocoelhoblog.com/2015/09/04/the-fisherman-and-the-...
I struggle with "carpe diem" ... (as I suppose we all must)
I want the simple life with the friends and the guitar around the fire ... but in this individualistic society I need to be able to feed, clothe, and house myself and those in my care until I fall over dead. Which is, incidentally, long after I'm capable of doing those things aaaaaand raise my kids to give them the best chance of doing the same.
Carpe diem alternately seems like a beautiful dream or offensively irresponsible foolishness.
I must be the ant... so that those in my care may be the grasshopper.
I want the simple life with the friends and the guitar around the fire ... but in this individualistic society I need to be able to feed, clothe, and house myself and those in my care until I fall over dead. Which is, incidentally, long after I'm capable of doing those things aaaaaand raise my kids to give them the best chance of doing the same.
Carpe diem alternately seems like a beautiful dream or offensively irresponsible foolishness.
I must be the ant... so that those in my care may be the grasshopper.
> aaaaaand raise my kids to give them the best chance of doing the same.
There's the tough part. Money buys houses in good school districts (or a spot in a private school) which buys fewer highly-disruptive peers, a much better worst-probable-outcome for available peer groups, and a safer (=less stressful) environment. It's hard to live on the cheap housing-wise with kids, since housing costs are a proxy for school/peer quality, and housing's a big percentage of one's spending. Plus it's harder to find housing in good school districts with enough space for more than ~1 kid in car-free commuting range of business districts in most cities, et c., et c. Harder to achieve that paid-off house which is so very important to early retirement. Plus, you've really got to maintain decent health insurance, which in the US means steady employment with a somewhat stable company.
Then you're both working because you need that money to cover the higher priced housing without risking rapid homelessness in the case of a layoff, but now whichever of you's lower-paid and might otherwise stay home is probably working around or below minimum wage, effectively, because child care is so damn expensive.
Whole thing seems like a trap designed to eat all your money. Having three kids took us from "will probably retire very comfortably by age 50, without even having to try that hard" to "will very likely never retire".
There's the tough part. Money buys houses in good school districts (or a spot in a private school) which buys fewer highly-disruptive peers, a much better worst-probable-outcome for available peer groups, and a safer (=less stressful) environment. It's hard to live on the cheap housing-wise with kids, since housing costs are a proxy for school/peer quality, and housing's a big percentage of one's spending. Plus it's harder to find housing in good school districts with enough space for more than ~1 kid in car-free commuting range of business districts in most cities, et c., et c. Harder to achieve that paid-off house which is so very important to early retirement. Plus, you've really got to maintain decent health insurance, which in the US means steady employment with a somewhat stable company.
Then you're both working because you need that money to cover the higher priced housing without risking rapid homelessness in the case of a layoff, but now whichever of you's lower-paid and might otherwise stay home is probably working around or below minimum wage, effectively, because child care is so damn expensive.
Whole thing seems like a trap designed to eat all your money. Having three kids took us from "will probably retire very comfortably by age 50, without even having to try that hard" to "will very likely never retire".
> Money buys houses in good school districts (or a spot in a private school) which buys fewer highly-disruptive peers, a much better worst-probable-outcome for available peer groups, and a safer (=less stressful) environment
I think this might be a myth. This is anecdotal but my experience is that the "rich kids" have just as many problems as the poor ones. They just receive less scrutiny unless they are public figures.
I grew up in a middle class area outside SV. The supposedly rich kids were often just as messed up as the poor ones. Its like the stereotypical "Preachers Kid."
I think this might be a myth. This is anecdotal but my experience is that the "rich kids" have just as many problems as the poor ones. They just receive less scrutiny unless they are public figures.
I grew up in a middle class area outside SV. The supposedly rich kids were often just as messed up as the poor ones. Its like the stereotypical "Preachers Kid."
It's no myth that kids in the poor schools around here are surrounded by peers who generate frequent school-wide lockdowns over (often realized) fears of significant violence, disregard authority and the importance of school to the point of cursing at and threatening teachers all the time (I'm talking lower elementary school kids here, not high school) and often, eventually, end up on the wrong side of the law. Kids in middle class and higher schools aren't dealing with that crap. In legitimately upper-middle-class (professional class, if you prefer) schools there's additionally peer pressure to do crazy stuff like study for the SAT outside of just the super-nerd clique, which, by that age, is vastly more effective than anything a parent would do to encourage that kind of thing. Norms and expectations among one's peers in school are, as I understand it, so hugely important that they overshadow most other factors in education (aside from basic home-life stability stuff, like not being abused and having food).
If you have kids, the difference between middle-class and "suboptimal" neighborhoods is stark. It's the difference between your kids having a normal, if not bland, suburban walk/drive to a decent school vs. them dodging bullets and stepping over junkies on their way to a gang-controlled school that's 95% English learners.
They may have 'as many problems' as the poor ones, but there's a particular category of poverty, where you aren't getting three meals a day, and half the time your parent figure's home, they are abusive, drunk, high, or in withdrawal from their poison of choice. Or in the best case, just not present.
It doesn't matter how good the school is, if the home environment is a living hell.
It doesn't matter how good the school is, if the home environment is a living hell.
I love that tale, and try and bring it up when people talk about success and happiness.
I also question this as well "We believe there’s a straight line from where you are to where you want to be." - ultimately most of the reasons I've quit something is because of not thinking like this. Usually I'm an optimist around most endeavours in life, but giving up on something is usually because I perceive the path to be even more winding and hard than it could actually be, not because I thought it was easy and was surprised.
Quitting, in a number of instances, is the logical choice.
I also question this as well "We believe there’s a straight line from where you are to where you want to be." - ultimately most of the reasons I've quit something is because of not thinking like this. Usually I'm an optimist around most endeavours in life, but giving up on something is usually because I perceive the path to be even more winding and hard than it could actually be, not because I thought it was easy and was surprised.
Quitting, in a number of instances, is the logical choice.
Unfortunately, there's a second part to the Fisherman's story. This, less-happy ending is thanks to the efforts of someone who didn't quit when it got hard.
> Sensing skepticism from the fisherman, the businessman moves onto the next boat and finds a more receptive fisherman. The two, sensing an obvious business opportunity, decide to go into business together. They raise a venture capital round and a year later, return to the pier outfitted with a dozen high tech fishing boats.
> Immediately, the price of tuna at the pier drops threefold with increased supply, forcing the young Mexican fisherman to increase his hours at sea just to maintain his existing standard of living.
> Shortly thereafter, all of the shallow water tuna have been caught and the young Mexican fisherman discovers his tiny boat is incapable of deep water fishing. Because of his limited savings, he does not have enough capital to invest in a deep water fishing boat and he is forced to sell his tiny fishing boat for pennies on the dollar as scrap because advances in technology have made it obsolete.
> After discovering that there is limited demand for an employee whose only skills are watching ballgames, playing the guitar and taking siestas, the young Mexican fisherman finds his only option is to take a job working minimum wage on one of the businessman’s fishing vessels.
> Several years later, the fisherman’s joints are shot through from the hard manual labor of operating on a commercial fishing vessel and an ill timed lift of a 150lb pallet of tuna finally causes his back to give way, causing permanent crippling. The fisherman discovers intensive lobbying from the businessman has weakened workplace protection rules and the fisherman is summarily let go with only a paltry settlement.
> After years of expensive medical treatments and crippling bills, the fisherman is finally forced to sell his land, passed along to him from generation to generation, to a development conglomerate run by the businessman who is buying large tracts of the entire village.
> Unbeknownst to the fisherman, the businessman has lobbied for the village to turn into a protected nature reserve, allowing for the rehabilitation of the environment and the restocking of fish in it’s pristine waters. The businessman painstakingly recreates the quaint, costal charm of the village he once visited, making it a paradise where the wealthy flock to when they want to retire into a life of easy indolence.
> Finally, 15 – 20 years after the original conversation, the fisherman and his wife are found dead in a homeless shelter. Meanwhile, the businessman retires to the village having made two successive fortunes first in fisheries and then in real estate development. He spends his days sleeping late, playing with his grandchildren, watching high def ESPN ballgames on a 70″ TV, and taking siesta with his wife. He occasionally strolls down to the village in the evenings where he regales his fellow millionaires with the story of how he found an unexploited niche in the marketplace and then took full advantage of it to make the fortune that got him to the comfortable retirement he enjoys today.
> Sensing skepticism from the fisherman, the businessman moves onto the next boat and finds a more receptive fisherman. The two, sensing an obvious business opportunity, decide to go into business together. They raise a venture capital round and a year later, return to the pier outfitted with a dozen high tech fishing boats.
> Immediately, the price of tuna at the pier drops threefold with increased supply, forcing the young Mexican fisherman to increase his hours at sea just to maintain his existing standard of living.
> Shortly thereafter, all of the shallow water tuna have been caught and the young Mexican fisherman discovers his tiny boat is incapable of deep water fishing. Because of his limited savings, he does not have enough capital to invest in a deep water fishing boat and he is forced to sell his tiny fishing boat for pennies on the dollar as scrap because advances in technology have made it obsolete.
> After discovering that there is limited demand for an employee whose only skills are watching ballgames, playing the guitar and taking siestas, the young Mexican fisherman finds his only option is to take a job working minimum wage on one of the businessman’s fishing vessels.
> Several years later, the fisherman’s joints are shot through from the hard manual labor of operating on a commercial fishing vessel and an ill timed lift of a 150lb pallet of tuna finally causes his back to give way, causing permanent crippling. The fisherman discovers intensive lobbying from the businessman has weakened workplace protection rules and the fisherman is summarily let go with only a paltry settlement.
> After years of expensive medical treatments and crippling bills, the fisherman is finally forced to sell his land, passed along to him from generation to generation, to a development conglomerate run by the businessman who is buying large tracts of the entire village.
> Unbeknownst to the fisherman, the businessman has lobbied for the village to turn into a protected nature reserve, allowing for the rehabilitation of the environment and the restocking of fish in it’s pristine waters. The businessman painstakingly recreates the quaint, costal charm of the village he once visited, making it a paradise where the wealthy flock to when they want to retire into a life of easy indolence.
> Finally, 15 – 20 years after the original conversation, the fisherman and his wife are found dead in a homeless shelter. Meanwhile, the businessman retires to the village having made two successive fortunes first in fisheries and then in real estate development. He spends his days sleeping late, playing with his grandchildren, watching high def ESPN ballgames on a 70″ TV, and taking siesta with his wife. He occasionally strolls down to the village in the evenings where he regales his fellow millionaires with the story of how he found an unexploited niche in the marketplace and then took full advantage of it to make the fortune that got him to the comfortable retirement he enjoys today.
Wow, that businessman is an awful person.
I was with him until this point. Part of “not quitting” for me is having balance. Sometimes quitting is just wanting change because I can’t get out of my head because I’m working nonstop. If I didn’t allow myself to watch some Netflix or play video games I’d never detach enough to be patient and keep at it.
So true. I find it crazy how a good amount of people in my generation(I'm in the US and an young engineer so my statistic is probably skewed) find that if you're not spending your time doing then you're wasting your life. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with someone making an honest working a 9-5 job and going home to do whatever they want. Regardless if its watching sports or TV all night.
Also, the end of the blogpost is kind of disingenuous. Knowing when to quit is as important as knowing when not to quit. Hard work does not always pay off.
Also, the end of the blogpost is kind of disingenuous. Knowing when to quit is as important as knowing when not to quit. Hard work does not always pay off.
"Knowing when to quit is as important as knowing when not to quit. Hard work does not always pay off."
This is the entire subject of Seth Godin's _The Dip_. I'm not a huge fan of this breed of books, but if someone is looking for a lesson on this topic, I would having a look at that book. It's very short -- you can read it in under an hour. It provides a decent mental framework for thinking through the question of whether you should continue on your current path, or quit and switch gears.
This is the entire subject of Seth Godin's _The Dip_. I'm not a huge fan of this breed of books, but if someone is looking for a lesson on this topic, I would having a look at that book. It's very short -- you can read it in under an hour. It provides a decent mental framework for thinking through the question of whether you should continue on your current path, or quit and switch gears.
Reminds me of a quote I heard a while back, not sure the source, went something to the effect of:
"Winners never quit, and quitters never win. But a person who never wins and never quits is a fool."
"Winners never quit, and quitters never win. But a person who never wins and never quits is a fool."
Nice but how do you know in which group you are or when you go from one group to another...
If no mistake you have made, yet losing you are. Then a different game you must play.
~Yoda.
~Yoda.
Is that the correct phrasing? It would imply that a fool that never wins and never quits should quit... but if quitters never win this fool would be sure to not win once they've quit.
Can't resist: "The only winning move is not to play" :)
But I guess it means that a winner knows when there is no path to a win and retreats to do something where it is actually possible to win.
But I guess it means that a winner knows when there is no path to a win and retreats to do something where it is actually possible to win.
In the finance industry, when there is no play to be made...the play is to buy options that are profitable if things stay the way there are.
Basically, when you know to "do nothing", there is an action to be taken - it just depends on "nothing really happening" to work out.
Basically, when you know to "do nothing", there is an action to be taken - it just depends on "nothing really happening" to work out.
The point is they're not going to win anyway.
Sometimes you don't win.
Interesting, I'm going have to look into this book. I think the hardest part for me personally when I'm making my "quitting" decision is that my emotional attachment tends to supersede my logical thinking.
The Dip was an eyeopener, its a highly recommended read.
> and going home to do whatever they want. Regardless if its watching sports or TV all night.
There's a difference between wanting to do that, and feeling unable to do anything else. If you _want_ to go home and veg for an evening that's OK, but if you can't do anything else, that's probably not OK.
There's a difference between wanting to do that, and feeling unable to do anything else. If you _want_ to go home and veg for an evening that's OK, but if you can't do anything else, that's probably not OK.
I would say that for an individual it might be hard to honestly determine between those two states. I'd say for myself there have certainly been times where I _thought_ I wanted to play a video game for several hours but ultimately I understood, based on how I felt afterwards, that is not really what I wanted.
It can be on a day to day basis, but if it’s a chronic thing, it’s usually (in retrospect, of course) easy to differentiate. Person 1 goes home every night after work and feels like they want o watch TV, so they do, every day for a year. Person 2 goes home every night and feels the same, however they meet friends/go to the gym/read a book/_something_ different once or twice a week. There’s a world of difference in retrospect.
> I _thought_ I wanted to play a video game for several hours but ultimately I understood, based on how I felt afterwards, that is not really what I wanted.
This is what I'm talking about. I can spend all day watching Netflix, but in the end I will be much happier if I go climbing, write some code, practice for my next musical performance, or read a book that will help me think better (some good fiction can fit into this category). Some games fit into this category, but not many.
This is what I'm talking about. I can spend all day watching Netflix, but in the end I will be much happier if I go climbing, write some code, practice for my next musical performance, or read a book that will help me think better (some good fiction can fit into this category). Some games fit into this category, but not many.
I tend to think of life balance as finding the right ratio of ‘productive’ hours versus ‘consumptive’ hours. I go to work, clean the house, take care of the kid, and work on side projects during my productive hours, and then relax, watch tv, read books, and play video games during my consumptive hours.
All of one or the other is not sustainable. Sometimes I feel like I am doing too much of one or the other, and I try to rebalance.
All of one or the other is not sustainable. Sometimes I feel like I am doing too much of one or the other, and I try to rebalance.
There is nothing wrong with that, but it is good advice if your goal is to become exceptional.
The only way to equal or beat someone naturally talented is to put in many hours.
Relaxation is good (but try to combine it with activities that are good for you, like jogging, meditation, or taking a shower/doing a house chore.)
While you go out to have drinks with your friends, some stay home and work on research and side projects. One makes you happy, the other makes you more skillfull. It is a lever.
I do agree that sometimes it can be better to give up. I spend close to a decade of my life trying to understand the subtleties of a single paper. Now I see the broader picture this was definately a Pyrrhic victory.
The only way to equal or beat someone naturally talented is to put in many hours.
Relaxation is good (but try to combine it with activities that are good for you, like jogging, meditation, or taking a shower/doing a house chore.)
While you go out to have drinks with your friends, some stay home and work on research and side projects. One makes you happy, the other makes you more skillfull. It is a lever.
I do agree that sometimes it can be better to give up. I spend close to a decade of my life trying to understand the subtleties of a single paper. Now I see the broader picture this was definately a Pyrrhic victory.
If you have this mindset, may I suggest that you could be significantly underestimating the role of luck and being in the right spot/having the right network?
If I was to review my career (which is by no means exceptional, but still), the times I've taken giant steps it has been either because of luck (I joined a company at a good growing point) or a mix of skill, luck and a network of people that help put me in opportunities to be exceptional. I have the skills to be great, but I need the opportunities to be great as well, and opportunities are not necessarily only created by skill.
Skill is a necessary component, but it is not the only component. There are a lot of things a lot of people can do, and the determining factor in who ends of doing them is usually not skill. There is such a thing as skilled enough, which is hard to get to, but if you're opting between getting 1% better at something and getting 20% better at something else, often taking the 20% thing will pay off more, whether that be in networking, finding more opportunities, or whatever.
If I was to review my career (which is by no means exceptional, but still), the times I've taken giant steps it has been either because of luck (I joined a company at a good growing point) or a mix of skill, luck and a network of people that help put me in opportunities to be exceptional. I have the skills to be great, but I need the opportunities to be great as well, and opportunities are not necessarily only created by skill.
Skill is a necessary component, but it is not the only component. There are a lot of things a lot of people can do, and the determining factor in who ends of doing them is usually not skill. There is such a thing as skilled enough, which is hard to get to, but if you're opting between getting 1% better at something and getting 20% better at something else, often taking the 20% thing will pay off more, whether that be in networking, finding more opportunities, or whatever.
I don't think luck in this context is actually a thing that happens by chance but rather by actively finding and selecting the right choice presented to you at that time.
I've seen it with myself and many of my colleagues that the one big chance that you thought you simply can not let go was actually one of many chances that come along quite regularly but seem to be very tempting at first. In the sense that you feel like you have to take it or there will never be such a chance again. But to be honest, if you are doing a good job there is almost always a way to grow, and if there really isn't then it's time to switch.
I've seen it with myself and many of my colleagues that the one big chance that you thought you simply can not let go was actually one of many chances that come along quite regularly but seem to be very tempting at first. In the sense that you feel like you have to take it or there will never be such a chance again. But to be honest, if you are doing a good job there is almost always a way to grow, and if there really isn't then it's time to switch.
Funny.. I have had multiple chances, like you said, and the ones I did not pick ended up doing very well and the ones that I did pick...did not!
I think it really depends on what you really, really want out of life.
My best friends and roommates all think I work too much, to the point that they've started calling me a "robot." But I tried going off the advice of my therapist to be more "balanced", and I found that all it did was make me dissatisfied with my progress.
I find a lot of joy waking up early, going to the gym, working until an hour before bed, and then reading a book until I fall asleep. I allow myself time to veg with Netflix for an hour or two a couple of nights a week, but no more than that. Ultimately, I find myself a lot happier being productive. I know it doesn't work for everyone, but I know that this is the way that I'm built.
My best friends and roommates all think I work too much, to the point that they've started calling me a "robot." But I tried going off the advice of my therapist to be more "balanced", and I found that all it did was make me dissatisfied with my progress.
I find a lot of joy waking up early, going to the gym, working until an hour before bed, and then reading a book until I fall asleep. I allow myself time to veg with Netflix for an hour or two a couple of nights a week, but no more than that. Ultimately, I find myself a lot happier being productive. I know it doesn't work for everyone, but I know that this is the way that I'm built.
Is it possible that you're working yourself to the bone to avoid thinking about your life.
I used to work crazy hours in workdays, on weekends I felt sick and sad. I actually wished for the stress of working at a high tempo. The downside was that I knew deep inside that the constant stress was detrimental to my health.
For years I've aimed for a work/life balance. But I am yet to achieve it. Either I work super hard, or I spend all my days procrastinating.
I used to work crazy hours in workdays, on weekends I felt sick and sad. I actually wished for the stress of working at a high tempo. The downside was that I knew deep inside that the constant stress was detrimental to my health.
For years I've aimed for a work/life balance. But I am yet to achieve it. Either I work super hard, or I spend all my days procrastinating.
Could be.
I know I definitely used to be that way. I was super depressed and I would just be at work to avoid life. But I felt super empty inside at that point.
Right now, I lean into it because I find happiness and simplicity in it.
I know I definitely used to be that way. I was super depressed and I would just be at work to avoid life. But I felt super empty inside at that point.
Right now, I lean into it because I find happiness and simplicity in it.
"The only way to equal or beat someone naturally talented is to put in many hours."
I totally agree with the sentiment. I work an extra 1-2 hours every day which gives me an additional 260-520 extra hours per year to outperform my peers. However, the older I get, the more I'm starting to think that being exceptional is overrated. Time is arguably the most valuable resource I have. Every extra hour you spend trying to become more skillful is one less hour to "live". The hardest part for me after college was to find this work life balance.
I totally agree with the sentiment. I work an extra 1-2 hours every day which gives me an additional 260-520 extra hours per year to outperform my peers. However, the older I get, the more I'm starting to think that being exceptional is overrated. Time is arguably the most valuable resource I have. Every extra hour you spend trying to become more skillful is one less hour to "live". The hardest part for me after college was to find this work life balance.
So much this. I've tried to 'out work' everyone my whole career/life. All that has change recently when I had a baby girl. All we really have is time, so spending it with my daughter has become more of a priority. Instead of grinding tickets on the weekend (obviously if there's a hard deadline then..), my time is spent with my baby. It's so much more rewarding and I am far less stressed all the time. But balance it truly the key.
> I spend close to a decade of my life trying to understand the subtleties of a single paper.
Wow. Out of curiosity - what paper was that?
Wow. Out of curiosity - what paper was that?
As an engineer, you are supposed to be a slave to your company. Look up the term Karoshi.
Anyway, as a middle aged engineer, my advice is to work your ass off when you are young and save a ton of money. Then you won’t be beholden to your employer.
Anyway, as a middle aged engineer, my advice is to work your ass off when you are young and save a ton of money. Then you won’t be beholden to your employer.
Try this experiment. Don't Netflix for a month. Instead, write something, everyday. Post it on your blog if your like but more importantly, try to see, at the end of the month, if your writing has meaningfully improved; if it has, has it made you happy about your progress?
There is obviously nothing wrong in leisure after work but the alternative can often be better. It can make you more skilled and more successful. It's an investment that reaps awesome benefits in the longer run.
There is obviously nothing wrong in leisure after work but the alternative can often be better. It can make you more skilled and more successful. It's an investment that reaps awesome benefits in the longer run.
Your writing is not going to improve this way. You need at least one competent person editing and reviewing your writing. However, the idea/experiment is interesting and I may try it one day!
I disagree slightly. That's like saying you can't become a better cook without someone else eating and judging your cooking.
If you read a lot you have developed "taste" for good writing. When you're starting out, just writing something you yourself don't hate can be challenging (if you're honest with yourself). Heck, I re-wrote this comment 3 times before I didn't hate it :-)
I agree that eventually, once you're at a certain level, you need someone reviewing your writing.
If you read a lot you have developed "taste" for good writing. When you're starting out, just writing something you yourself don't hate can be challenging (if you're honest with yourself). Heck, I re-wrote this comment 3 times before I didn't hate it :-)
I agree that eventually, once you're at a certain level, you need someone reviewing your writing.
The problem with this approach is that it's hard to measure progress. I can't objectively tell if my writing has improved (if I knew I was making mistakes, I wouldn't be making them). Popularity of a blog is also not a good metric because it depends a lot on how effectively you promote it.
There’s a quote which pops up in my wallpaper rotation about this: Time you enjoyed wasting is not wasted time.
Having a stable home life, emotional health, and a variety of hobbies will stand you in good stead as a programmer in he long run; the end goal of our code is rarely the code itself, and being even partially familiar with the domain (via hobbies) will help improve the output of your coding.
Having a stable home life, emotional health, and a variety of hobbies will stand you in good stead as a programmer in he long run; the end goal of our code is rarely the code itself, and being even partially familiar with the domain (via hobbies) will help improve the output of your coding.
> Time you enjoyed wasting is not wasted time.
> variety of hobbies
That's the thing though: do people really enjoy passively consuming entertainment? I can't speak for others, but it makes a world of difference when I spend my free time doing things rather than vegging out. Maybe it's just a successful coping strategy I've developed to forget about being depressed.
I also can't help but feel that becoming more passive, and getting wearied by the onslaught of information has not done us any favors as a country. It's hard to articulate, and I'm sure there are other factors, but when people can't be bothered, or are too tired, to take an interest in their civic duties, we end up with dysfunctional government.
> variety of hobbies
That's the thing though: do people really enjoy passively consuming entertainment? I can't speak for others, but it makes a world of difference when I spend my free time doing things rather than vegging out. Maybe it's just a successful coping strategy I've developed to forget about being depressed.
I also can't help but feel that becoming more passive, and getting wearied by the onslaught of information has not done us any favors as a country. It's hard to articulate, and I'm sure there are other factors, but when people can't be bothered, or are too tired, to take an interest in their civic duties, we end up with dysfunctional government.
I despise the industry that I work in (the tech industry, if you couldn't guess :) ) and doing nothing but consuming after I put in my time at work is the only thing keeping me from a massive depressionary spiral and self-harm.
I've tried, before, to do things, and my mental state has quickly deteriorated to a worrisome point.
Do I wish I could do things? Absolutely. But my hatred of what I do, and the fact that it's the only real thing I'm good at in a productive sense, means that I've never found another outlet that I can work on and not spend the entirety of the time dwelling on how much I hate it.
So all I do is play games and watch internet videos on my off time. Deep down it crushes me that this is my life, but thus far I've managed to keep that mostly bottled up.
I've tried, before, to do things, and my mental state has quickly deteriorated to a worrisome point.
Do I wish I could do things? Absolutely. But my hatred of what I do, and the fact that it's the only real thing I'm good at in a productive sense, means that I've never found another outlet that I can work on and not spend the entirety of the time dwelling on how much I hate it.
So all I do is play games and watch internet videos on my off time. Deep down it crushes me that this is my life, but thus far I've managed to keep that mostly bottled up.
What you're feeling is normal. I just read some of your previous comments, and I think you'd find some help in talking about this with a counsellor of some kind. Many people get bouts of feeling hopeless and unsatisfied. This is the perfect thing to mention to a doctor or reach out to a professional. It is so incredibly common. You don't need to bottle these feelings up. You know there is a problem, please reach out to someone!
> do people really enjoy passively consuming entertainment?
Considering how long "passive" entertainment has been about, I'm going to have to say Yes.
- Streaming - Podcasts - Television - Radio - Records - Plays - Orchestras - Circuses - Gladiatorial Fights (MMA, Boxing, sword/shields, etc) - Listening to oral stories
And I know I'm just scratching the surface.
> becoming more passive, and getting wearied by the onslaught of information has not done us any favors
The phrase "bread and circuses" didn't come about in our time.
There's an eternal fight between those who the government's policies impact, and those who it doesn't affect (along with a small fringe group who get involved regardless). The affected have always, and probably will always, lament the laziness of the unaffected.
Considering how long "passive" entertainment has been about, I'm going to have to say Yes.
- Streaming - Podcasts - Television - Radio - Records - Plays - Orchestras - Circuses - Gladiatorial Fights (MMA, Boxing, sword/shields, etc) - Listening to oral stories
And I know I'm just scratching the surface.
> becoming more passive, and getting wearied by the onslaught of information has not done us any favors
The phrase "bread and circuses" didn't come about in our time.
There's an eternal fight between those who the government's policies impact, and those who it doesn't affect (along with a small fringe group who get involved regardless). The affected have always, and probably will always, lament the laziness of the unaffected.
> do people really enjoy passively consuming entertainment?
Yes! But what kind of entertainment? And how "passively"? Is reading a hard sci-fi novel or watching Black Mirror "passive", when it makes you question the nature of reality?
Yes! But what kind of entertainment? And how "passively"? Is reading a hard sci-fi novel or watching Black Mirror "passive", when it makes you question the nature of reality?
> Maybe it's just a successful coping strategy I've developed to forget about being depressed
I wouldn't dare diagnose anyone but I can tell you from experience this is often what it is. My father for example is a highly depressed person, if he stops for any length of time to dwell on things he falls deeply into a deep depression. As a result he's learned how to add additions to the house, do his own roofing, build decks, fix his own vehicles.
He has a 1500 sq ft barn filled to the brim with tools and tractors that he uses regularly. He was a software engineer before retirement and taught himself how to use all this stuff.
He jokes about all the money he's saved doing these things for himself but I helped him inventory all his things and he's roughly spent 2x as much on tools and toys than he would have had he just hired a contractor. That depressed him until I explained that the gain he got from doing it himself off set that. Honestly, the man isn't happy unless his hands are cut up and dirty.
I wouldn't dare diagnose anyone but I can tell you from experience this is often what it is. My father for example is a highly depressed person, if he stops for any length of time to dwell on things he falls deeply into a deep depression. As a result he's learned how to add additions to the house, do his own roofing, build decks, fix his own vehicles.
He has a 1500 sq ft barn filled to the brim with tools and tractors that he uses regularly. He was a software engineer before retirement and taught himself how to use all this stuff.
He jokes about all the money he's saved doing these things for himself but I helped him inventory all his things and he's roughly spent 2x as much on tools and toys than he would have had he just hired a contractor. That depressed him until I explained that the gain he got from doing it himself off set that. Honestly, the man isn't happy unless his hands are cut up and dirty.
> That's the thing though: do people really enjoy passively consuming entertainment?
Our survey (size: 1, population: me) says "Yes".
> we end up with dysfunctional government.
Assuming you mean the US, you have a dysfunctional government because it was designed that way and has been gamed quite successfully by the GOP for the last 8-12 years (cf Voting Rights act, gerrymandering, SCOTUS stuffing, etc.)
Our survey (size: 1, population: me) says "Yes".
> we end up with dysfunctional government.
Assuming you mean the US, you have a dysfunctional government because it was designed that way and has been gamed quite successfully by the GOP for the last 8-12 years (cf Voting Rights act, gerrymandering, SCOTUS stuffing, etc.)
Not to mention that it will help your well-being in the long run. If you're always "on", that's extra stress that will lead to premature exhaustion and have you stroking out in your 40s or 50s.
The more short term effects are better work management. If you're not constantly worried about what's going on at home, because you've had time to take care of said problems or projects, then you can more readily focus on what's happening at your job.
The more short term effects are better work management. If you're not constantly worried about what's going on at home, because you've had time to take care of said problems or projects, then you can more readily focus on what's happening at your job.
Agreed, I've met too many younger people who confuse success with passion and are (surely) on their way to being burned out by it all.
If you don't quit, maybe you'll never start the next thing that will succeed. A blind 'just work harder' ethic doesn't necessarily mean success. It's such crap to say that everyone who never quits succeeds.
Not only that, but it means that if you decide to do something else, you'll feel like it was a moral failure to stop doing what you were doing. So you'll blame yourself, and you won't examine honestly why didn't it work, what was things were out of my control. Learning from the experience is the most valuable part.
I spent close to 10 years on something that didn't succeed. The problem was it didn't fail either, so you just keep telling yourself that it's going to happen one day. Looking back on it objectively it was never going to work.
Take an honest view, don't just sing in the choir of the church of you.
Not only that, but it means that if you decide to do something else, you'll feel like it was a moral failure to stop doing what you were doing. So you'll blame yourself, and you won't examine honestly why didn't it work, what was things were out of my control. Learning from the experience is the most valuable part.
I spent close to 10 years on something that didn't succeed. The problem was it didn't fail either, so you just keep telling yourself that it's going to happen one day. Looking back on it objectively it was never going to work.
Take an honest view, don't just sing in the choir of the church of you.
On reflection - what you shouldn't quit at is having a growth mindset and always improving. Definitely do that.
> If you don't quit, maybe you'll never start the next thing that will succeed
In Agile this would be "fail fast". One of the few things I like about Agile personally.
In Agile this would be "fail fast". One of the few things I like about Agile personally.
"Know when to quit and when not to quit" is better advice then just "don't quit". However, I think this article is aimed at the situation where you know you shouldn't quit, but you do because it's hard. For example, regular exercise.
Something that has worked for me is committing myself to a short amount time doing the thing I don't want to do. I'll tell myself "after 5 minutes, if I still don't want to do this then I'll stop". Nearly always once I start washing the dishes or start a run, I'm happy to finish.
Something that has worked for me is committing myself to a short amount time doing the thing I don't want to do. I'll tell myself "after 5 minutes, if I still don't want to do this then I'll stop". Nearly always once I start washing the dishes or start a run, I'm happy to finish.
Apparently, the Navy SEAL's have a similar philosophy during BUD/S, and particularly during Hell Week where they go five days of gruelling physical challenges with a total of about 3-4 hours sleep.
>>Navy SEAL's have a similar philosophy during BUD/S, and particularly during Hell Week where they go five days of gruelling physical challenges with a total of about 3-4 hours sleep.
The standard advice while doing anything that is that long and stressful, is to try and not quit the next 5 minutes at one time.
But even in the case of Hell week, the worst part is the first 2.5 days. If you can make it till there, you finish the week. The instructors also don't push you to the point of the falling to total exhaustion, they know, if they have seen you hold on for half the time, you will get the remaining done easily.
The standard advice while doing anything that is that long and stressful, is to try and not quit the next 5 minutes at one time.
But even in the case of Hell week, the worst part is the first 2.5 days. If you can make it till there, you finish the week. The instructors also don't push you to the point of the falling to total exhaustion, they know, if they have seen you hold on for half the time, you will get the remaining done easily.
This article seems to reference a personality trait that seems to be lacking in modern society: grit. Just my person opinion. Heck, I've lacked grit, in some situations.
For a good (motivational) read about the definition of grit, who's got it, and why it matters, I recommend Angela Duckworth [link]http://angeladuckworth.com/
For a good (motivational) read about the definition of grit, who's got it, and why it matters, I recommend Angela Duckworth [link]http://angeladuckworth.com/
I don't think it's a lack of grit. I think a lot of it is a lack of motivation, or a lack of explanation of why they should continue.
That kind of stuff doesn't work for me; I can't "outsmart" myself by trying to take ad-hoc self-delivered advice. If I said something like that to myself, my brain would respond "nice try, I'm not that gullible. If quitting after five minutes were a reasonable outcome, then never starting is a reasonable outcome. Why don't I just wait until later?"
If I know it's a trick enough to try it, then I know it's a trick enough to see through it.
If I know it's a trick enough to try it, then I know it's a trick enough to see through it.
Doesn't have to be a trick though. As long as some measurable dent in the pile of work is made, that's infinitely more than none at all, right? One way to make this real is for the first few times, to commit to definitely stop after the short interval decided for. So work out for those five minutes and then stop even when feeling like going longer. This way there's no trick involved. It's about removing the pressure to accomplish a significant dent and allow yourself to feel some satisfaction still, as long as there is a positive contribution. Small steps and all that...
> I can't "outsmart" myself
This isn't "outsmarting" yourself, its simply getting past the hardest part. It's difficult to "get off the couch" if I think I'm committing myself to running 10 miles. But I can easily get off the couch to run for 5 minutes. After 5 minutes, I can quit, or keep going. Sometimes I quit, sometimes I keep going.
This isn't "outsmarting" yourself, its simply getting past the hardest part. It's difficult to "get off the couch" if I think I'm committing myself to running 10 miles. But I can easily get off the couch to run for 5 minutes. After 5 minutes, I can quit, or keep going. Sometimes I quit, sometimes I keep going.
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If only it were so simple.
It is that simple when you are, say, running an endurance race. Abide "don't quit" and you will finish.
But in real life, you're presented with a continual stream of alternative opportunities.
And these days "I quit" has subtly morphed into "I pivot."
It is that simple when you are, say, running an endurance race. Abide "don't quit" and you will finish.
But in real life, you're presented with a continual stream of alternative opportunities.
And these days "I quit" has subtly morphed into "I pivot."
> It is that simple when you are, say, running an endurance race.
It isn't. If things are starting to cause pain, or bleed, or you're vomiting, or ... there are many sensible reasons to cut short or abandon an endurance race.
> Abide "don't quit" and you will finish.
Or do yourself damage that will take months to recover from.
It isn't. If things are starting to cause pain, or bleed, or you're vomiting, or ... there are many sensible reasons to cut short or abandon an endurance race.
> Abide "don't quit" and you will finish.
Or do yourself damage that will take months to recover from.
As a personal anecdote, I cut short a 24h race this summer at 17h because, even though it was ~20degC, I spent an entire lap shivering even though I had t-shirt + thick hoody + hat. That was a pretty big warning that I'd pushed too far and further would have laid me out.
There's no shame in stopping. Sounds like you were hypothermic, which is a common reason for DNFs.
From my experience, I would say that you wouldn't have been able to continue even if you needed to.
Also, always beware of the spectrum. Some people would say running for 17 hours is impossible. Others would say they shivered uncontrollably at 17 hours and roughed out 3 more hours before dropping. Others still would hit 24 hours and wish they could keep going.
From my experience, I would say that you wouldn't have been able to continue even if you needed to.
Also, always beware of the spectrum. Some people would say running for 17 hours is impossible. Others would say they shivered uncontrollably at 17 hours and roughed out 3 more hours before dropping. Others still would hit 24 hours and wish they could keep going.
> There's no shame in stopping.
Oh, I know. I was there primarily to support a 100-miler anyway which made the decision a lot easier.
> I would say that you wouldn't have been able to continue even if you needed to.
Yeah, I spent the next couple of hours just slumped under a table trying to get warm and eat food.
Oh, I know. I was there primarily to support a 100-miler anyway which made the decision a lot easier.
> I would say that you wouldn't have been able to continue even if you needed to.
Yeah, I spent the next couple of hours just slumped under a table trying to get warm and eat food.
That's awesome. I hope it's clear that I'm not hating. I'm sure you'll always have great memories of that day, and hopefully of similar days in the future. Life's good out there.
Excellent motivational speech -- skip to the 6 minute mark: https://youtu.be/b3q0dvwEmsQ
I think you linked to the wrong video; it's only 53 seconds long.
Oops -- this one: https://youtu.be/3cZlvRnBnWs
I've raced bikes since I was a kid. I meet a ton of the "finish at all costs" people in endurance racing, but in anything from a criterium, to a 24h mtb race, the minute I'm not either A. doing well enough to place well or B. having fun, I pull out of the race.
Do you have any data to support your claim?
My view is that if you start a race healthy, then you are unlikely to do permanent damage to your body during the race. The exceptions are primarily in the category of: "I need to immediately be taken to the ER."
Also, most finishers of a 100 mile race experience pain and vomiting. But each runner has her own experience and there are no hard rules.
(I have run several 100 mile trail races -- about 2 per year -- over the past 10 years)
My view is that if you start a race healthy, then you are unlikely to do permanent damage to your body during the race. The exceptions are primarily in the category of: "I need to immediately be taken to the ER."
Also, most finishers of a 100 mile race experience pain and vomiting. But each runner has her own experience and there are no hard rules.
(I have run several 100 mile trail races -- about 2 per year -- over the past 10 years)
> then you are unlikely to do permanent damage
Note that I didn't say "permanent damage" but "damage that will take months to recover from".
And this is largely from participating in two communities of "extreme" endurance runners (and running with them but not to the same level) who recount their experiences and advice.
It's good that you haven't had any issues but generalising to the wider world is a tricky thing - I know enough people who have attempted 100 milers (even just in 2017) and done damage that took months to recover from to know that it happens.
Note that I didn't say "permanent damage" but "damage that will take months to recover from".
And this is largely from participating in two communities of "extreme" endurance runners (and running with them but not to the same level) who recount their experiences and advice.
It's good that you haven't had any issues but generalising to the wider world is a tricky thing - I know enough people who have attempted 100 milers (even just in 2017) and done damage that took months to recover from to know that it happens.
Without a doubt, 100 miles is a monumental endeavor. The safest way to avoid needing a multi month recovery would be to work the aide station instead of running the race. On the other hand, much of the transcendental impact of the race comes from pushing yourself well beyond preconceived limits.
> Without a doubt, 100 miles is a monumental endeavor
Well, I'll find out in March. Assuming I don't knacker myself first.
(Although it is somewhat overshadowed by the people I hang around with - one of them is currently on something like his 250th marathon in a rolling calendar year, one has done 800 under 3:30, and most of them do 10x10s as a matter of course.)
Well, I'll find out in March. Assuming I don't knacker myself first.
(Although it is somewhat overshadowed by the people I hang around with - one of them is currently on something like his 250th marathon in a rolling calendar year, one has done 800 under 3:30, and most of them do 10x10s as a matter of course.)
You're going to succeed.
Oh yeah - barring injury, I think it's definitely doable. It's a 32h cutoff on a relatively flat and simple looped course with multiple aid stations. Almost as easy as it can get... :)
Here's my advice:
1. 100% commitment. An unexpected injury or illness is outside of your control, so don't worry about it.
2. Toe the start line fit, injury-free, and positive.
3. Know that it will hurt.
4. Enjoy the day.
1. 100% commitment. An unexpected injury or illness is outside of your control, so don't worry about it.
2. Toe the start line fit, injury-free, and positive.
3. Know that it will hurt.
4. Enjoy the day.
An important lesson I have learned recently is that doing hard things never pays dividends in the shorter run; in fact, it make you miserable in that period. The benefits are only realised in the longer run. What if you commit yourself to send one newspaper pitch every week? Quite likely, you will face rejections and it will make feel dejected. However, gradually, your pitches will start improving, you'll get better at writing them, and eventually, one of yours will get accepted. Then, probably another. Hurray! you have broken into publishing industry as a freelance writer.
From all the things related to writing I have read, this advice is present in almost every one of them. The recipe sounds simple but it's easy enough to quit with just one rejections. In writing, business, dating or anything that requires effort. If you persist, however, don't take failure personally, it doesn't take long to get better at that.
From all the things related to writing I have read, this advice is present in almost every one of them. The recipe sounds simple but it's easy enough to quit with just one rejections. In writing, business, dating or anything that requires effort. If you persist, however, don't take failure personally, it doesn't take long to get better at that.
[deleted]
Stephen King tells a similar story in his book On Writing :)
I like to face difficult problems, but I do expect to gain something in return. I also expect actual challenges and not just a pile of annoyances.
Unfortunately, most of the time the reward is that you just get to work on even more annoying problems.
Unfortunately, most of the time the reward is that you just get to work on even more annoying problems.
Far too many mistake annoyances for challenge.
Don't quit just because it gets hard.
But don't persist if it isn't worth it. Which decision should be made independently of personal discomfort.
(Also, in general don't take life advice from 20 something Internet marketers. Why do you clog up the interwebs people? Please quit! Not because it's hard but because volume of SEO junk to sell some coaching books is simply not needed by humanity. Lets improve the quality of the net with original ideas rather than rehashing again and again. Do something worth doing or do not do at all.)
But don't persist if it isn't worth it. Which decision should be made independently of personal discomfort.
(Also, in general don't take life advice from 20 something Internet marketers. Why do you clog up the interwebs people? Please quit! Not because it's hard but because volume of SEO junk to sell some coaching books is simply not needed by humanity. Lets improve the quality of the net with original ideas rather than rehashing again and again. Do something worth doing or do not do at all.)
>> Darius Foroux: "I’m an entrepreneur, author, and podcaster. I also research tools to build a better life, career, and business. Join my free newsletter if you want to get my latest articles delivered to your inbox."
Another collection of pseudointellectual predigested positive platitudes.
Another collection of pseudointellectual predigested positive platitudes.
I agree when the challenge is getting to the goal, but people often quit when they don't believe in the goal anymore.
In the Coursera course about learning, one thing one of the professor say is that every successful people have this in common: persistence. Nothing can be achieved without persistence.
On the flip side of that, don't stick with a failing endeavor just because it is hard and you have put a lot of energy into it. Make an intelligent analysis of your current position and trajectory in life, and decide whether or not to change your direction based on your long-term goals. Sometimes sticking with it is the right answer... sometimes it isn't.
I doubt it's that simple. There are things you should just quit - things that mess with your mental stability. Then there are things that exercise the right muscles but is downright hard, the ones you should persist for the value you gain at the end of it. Being patient is a great virtue till it isn't.
Edit: typo
Edit: typo
I like that drawing. In music I represent learning as a black map, with gray areas around tiny white spots, which are valid intuitions/concepts.
Learning something really knew, means whole black map, blindness, you can only walk randomly and think you hit a white spot but it's only a gray area. Then you have more gray areas but they don't work right yet. After a while you can finely tune the walk and locate the white spots. When you have lots of white spots, you know.
And if you're fast, it's just because you don't have to walk anymore, you can jumpskip right to the appropriate white spot to evaluate a situation or phenomenon.
Learning something really knew, means whole black map, blindness, you can only walk randomly and think you hit a white spot but it's only a gray area. Then you have more gray areas but they don't work right yet. After a while you can finely tune the walk and locate the white spots. When you have lots of white spots, you know.
And if you're fast, it's just because you don't have to walk anymore, you can jumpskip right to the appropriate white spot to evaluate a situation or phenomenon.
Never quit on your own goals.
Its fine to quit when other peoples goals involve using your man-power for their own gain and you see less and less reason to continue being a part of it.
Its fine to quit when other peoples goals involve using your man-power for their own gain and you see less and less reason to continue being a part of it.
He is speaking in the context of once you set a goal then don't quit. Eg: I have to get a job in one month.
Now, once you define a goal that is measurable and is important to you. Will you be able to watch netflix if you are consumed by your goal day and night?
If your thoughts are fooling you,then you will get discouraged by every small failure. I think it helps to be less emotional and mechanical in the pursuit of a goal.
Necessary Endings: The Employees, Businesses, and Relationships That All of Us Have to Give Up in Order to Move Forward by Henry Cloud.[1]
"Endings:The Good Cannot Begin Until the Bad Ends"
Sometimes you have to quit the bad or good so that you can start the good or better.
[1] http://amzn.to/2yJiImE
"Endings:The Good Cannot Begin Until the Bad Ends"
Sometimes you have to quit the bad or good so that you can start the good or better.
[1] http://amzn.to/2yJiImE
>
“There’s a trick to the 'graceful exit.' It begins with the vision to recognize when a job, a life stage, or a relationship is over — and let it go. It means leaving what’s over without denying its validity or its past importance to our lives. It involves a sense of future, a belief that every exit line is an entry, that we are moving up, rather than out.”
― Ellen Goodman
― Ellen Goodman
Idk much about other things in this essay, but his goal is always on imagination line, while in reality it is, well, constrained somewhere on reality curve (at most).
Given that imagined goal = real, it is pretty easy to not quit. Hard part is, complex goals are often just a mirage.
Given that imagined goal = real, it is pretty easy to not quit. Hard part is, complex goals are often just a mirage.
'A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds' — Emerson
To look at this article from my own viewpoint(who else's?), this is about "do I stop out now, wait, or move my stop loss and hope it turns around(hah!)".
Know when to keep going, but more importantly, know when to quit. Not knowing when to quit is how you go bankrupt, die, and/or cause other people to do either.
Know when to keep going, but more importantly, know when to quit. Not knowing when to quit is how you go bankrupt, die, and/or cause other people to do either.
[deleted]
I just want to make enough to where I don’t have to work in this industry, at least for a little while. It’s fucking awful.
I wonder if Darius has heard of Borderline Personality Disorder. I immediately thought of it reading this post. I suffer from BPD myself, and I've noticed far greater symptoms of wanting to quit compared to people around me - the grass is always greener, and I want something until I have it. That has resulted in very unstable jobs, careers, and relationships.
Just like Darius's post, actually following up and quitting didn't make me happier. Rather, worse. There's a honeymoon period, but soon I disliked the new thing, and wanted to go back to the old thing.
Deep down, it turns out this is a symptom of not loving myself and being happy with who I am - and feelings of neglect, shame, and guilt from childhood.
I seek new jobs, experiences, friends, and relationships because I think that will make me content - but that's flawed as you will never love anything until you love yourself; and surprisingly my empty self identity is the cause of hating programming, or hating product management, or hating my work.
Other symptoms of BPD are seeing things in black and white ('splitting'), wide emotional swings, intense fears of detachment, chronic feelings of emptiness, and more. Those are usually traced to childhood abandonment; whether it's losing parents, moving countries, or a troublesome upbringing.
If any of this sounds like you, I'd suggest looking more into BPD. There's a book called "I hate you, don't leave me"; that while not perfect and critiqued in some areas, is a great explanation of BPD. But also, don't self-diagnose; don't think you have BPD just because you want to quit.
Just like Darius's post, actually following up and quitting didn't make me happier. Rather, worse. There's a honeymoon period, but soon I disliked the new thing, and wanted to go back to the old thing.
Deep down, it turns out this is a symptom of not loving myself and being happy with who I am - and feelings of neglect, shame, and guilt from childhood.
I seek new jobs, experiences, friends, and relationships because I think that will make me content - but that's flawed as you will never love anything until you love yourself; and surprisingly my empty self identity is the cause of hating programming, or hating product management, or hating my work.
Other symptoms of BPD are seeing things in black and white ('splitting'), wide emotional swings, intense fears of detachment, chronic feelings of emptiness, and more. Those are usually traced to childhood abandonment; whether it's losing parents, moving countries, or a troublesome upbringing.
If any of this sounds like you, I'd suggest looking more into BPD. There's a book called "I hate you, don't leave me"; that while not perfect and critiqued in some areas, is a great explanation of BPD. But also, don't self-diagnose; don't think you have BPD just because you want to quit.
Not being able to love yourself sucks. You can't find happiness when you don't want it, don't feel like you deserve it.
Good read
If you quit, you must know you have given another human a chance to do better than you did.
Make sure during your Race of Life you stop and enjoy it.
This is a very narrow view of the world. Success is not explicitly defined as spending every waking hour working. A person who is content with their lot in life, at any level, is already successful.