Older Adults' Forgetfulness Tied to Faulty Brain Rhythms in Sleep(npr.org)
npr.org
Older Adults' Forgetfulness Tied to Faulty Brain Rhythms in Sleep
http://npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/12/18/571120472/older-adults-forgetfulness-tied-to-faulty-brain-rhythms-in-sleep
119 comments
Although not normally considered a prescription drug, Cannabis has marked affects on the REM sleep phase.
Some research exists[1] though limited to testing with THC, so it wouldn't be strictly accurate to say 'cannabis' (for example, it would also be worth doing a similar study on CBD, as it has quite a few interesting properties as well).
1: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-teenage-mind/200906...
1: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-teenage-mind/200906...
I agree. I'm a sample of one, but when I used to smoke cannabis in my teens it definitely made me sleep dreamless and usually wake up pretty groggy as well.
Since CBD only products (< 1% thc) have become legal in Switzerland, I've been using them to handle anxiety and one of the upsides is very refreshing sleep + more dreams.
Since CBD only products (< 1% thc) have become legal in Switzerland, I've been using them to handle anxiety and one of the upsides is very refreshing sleep + more dreams.
Which are ...? (not a cannabis user, just curious).
According to a study from the 70s, cannabis interferes with REM sleep.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-teenage-mind/200906...
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-teenage-mind/200906...
Generally heavy cannabis users don't dream as often or vividly as normal. One of the primary symptoms of cannabis withdrawal is extremely vivid dreams. I don't know if there's been any formal studies on this in particular, but I've heard enough independent anecdotes, that I'm convinced there is some relation.
Above was just the subjective part, there have been studies on the objective effects of cannabis on REM sleep, where it appears to decrease total REM sleep duration.
As far as the implications of this go, your guess is as good as mine.
Above was just the subjective part, there have been studies on the objective effects of cannabis on REM sleep, where it appears to decrease total REM sleep duration.
As far as the implications of this go, your guess is as good as mine.
Not a cannabis user, but I hardly ever remember my dreams. Maybe one every 1-2 months if I'm lucky. I wonder if that means that there is something wrong with my sleep.
Actually the opposite. In order to remember a dream you would have to wake up in the middle of it.
My cousin had to stop weed rapidly; first thing he said "never dreamed like this in years". He was also in 2x speed, so quick it was almost funny.
Remembering dreams as vivid and not remembering the that much does not mean dreams are not vivid. Deep sleep hides those dreams or is there some empirical data?
I have noticed that not sure if I have ever heard a reason.
Have there been any studies comparing the direct effects of THC with REM sleep?
It seems remotely plausible that cannabis could be inducing a REM-like state while the user is still awake.
It seems remotely plausible that cannabis could be inducing a REM-like state while the user is still awake.
> Sleep allows the brain to catch up on the day's events. That is, it buffers certain things to be processed in full later
Citation?
I didn't know there was a proven reason why we sleep...?
Citation?
I didn't know there was a proven reason why we sleep...?
Here's a good review that came out not too long ago:
>Specifically, newer findings characterize sleep as a brain state optimizing memory consolidation, in opposition to the waking brain being optimized for encoding of memories.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/9ac5/c749244b9e2509a670a816... [pdf]
>Specifically, newer findings characterize sleep as a brain state optimizing memory consolidation, in opposition to the waking brain being optimized for encoding of memories.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/9ac5/c749244b9e2509a670a816... [pdf]
<clever analogy to some CS concept. life is a computer. human is a machine. brain is a program. all is binary. 0010100101. why does the treadmill speed up the harder i run?>
Interesting. It's like the Refactoring phase of TDD. So basically during the day you experience new observations ("tests" if you will), you address/process them however you can on the spot ("green bar"), then during sleep you take stock and generalize so you can reuse the experiences of the day for the future ("refactor").
I've been seeing this TDD process in a lot of things lately. Scientific progress seems to follow the same process as well (at least that's one way to capture what Popper or Lakatos have been telling us, not that I've actually read them yet mind you).
I've been seeing this TDD process in a lot of things lately. Scientific progress seems to follow the same process as well (at least that's one way to capture what Popper or Lakatos have been telling us, not that I've actually read them yet mind you).
GC
Both refactoring and GC.
There has been a lot more research recently about the neurobiological effects of sleep. A good summary: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5501041/
> I didn't know there was a proven reason why we sleep...?
I don’t know if you’re being coy and trying to say the opposite—that we don’t have one, and therefore op is wrong? If so: they didn’t say that was the reason. Just that it was what happened during sleep. Could be a side effect of sleep. We know about some of those, as far as I’m aware.
I don’t know if you’re being coy and trying to say the opposite—that we don’t have one, and therefore op is wrong? If so: they didn’t say that was the reason. Just that it was what happened during sleep. Could be a side effect of sleep. We know about some of those, as far as I’m aware.
I don't think it's a question of why. That's board and difficult to pin down. However, there's plenry of studies on what happens when we sleep. Post-day processing _is_ one of those things.
The article mentioned a book that is literally called Why We Sleep, written by a sleep researcher.
Ah, I'll have to share this with my wife! We welcomed our first child in November. Since then, we've been pretty sleep deprived thanks to the nightly feedings and diaper changes. Both of us were remarking this morning how forgetful we had become, even to the point that we couldn't recall how the night had gone.
Since having a kid myself, I've pretty much settled on the notion that it's an evolutionary trick: since you don't sleep much, you don't remember the hellish times during those early months (years?), so you're willing to have a second – or third, or fourth – kid down the road.
Ha! Funny but makes sense, though I think in this case it is a by product of our young forcing us to “pay attention” to them. The thing I always found more interesting is how babies tend to look more like their fathers than mothers at birth. The evolutionary advantage being to make it more obvious “who’s kid it is”. It is fairly easy to know the mother, but harder to “prove” the father, at least evolutionary speaking.
The young aren’t forcing you to “pay attention” to them, they just want their needs met. One of those needs is to not be eaten by snakes or other predators, so they don’t want to be alone. How people ever came up with the idea that putting a helpless baby in a different room was a good idea or even preferable to just cosleeping is beyond me.
If you cosleep you don’t end up sleep deprived at all. The first year of my daughters life was a joy and super easy. The worst part was the three days when we weaned but she was already 2. 99% of our nights were full sleep, my wife commented on how it was amazing that the baby didn’t eat at night, but what was actually happening was my wife would automatically roll over and feed her when she’d fuss a little bit. Western society still clings to these Victorian notions of child rearing that makes everything absurdly difficult.
Co-sleeping, where the child is in the same bed as the parents, is generally considered dangerous.
But I suspect you're biased, we have a baby that slept overnight (mostly) from seven months, but we have friends with a five year old who won't sleep for more than two hours at a time.
Some babies are easy, some are not. Just like they're people, really!
But I suspect you're biased, we have a baby that slept overnight (mostly) from seven months, but we have friends with a five year old who won't sleep for more than two hours at a time.
Some babies are easy, some are not. Just like they're people, really!
The risks include things like falling out of bed, which we solved by getting rid of the box spring and putting the mattress directly on the floor. That also let our daughter be more independent since she could nap, then get out of bed herself once she started crawling. There is a risk of the mother rolling over on the child, but only if the mother is taking some sort of medication (or drinking alcohol) which is interfering with her sleep. Fathers sleep more deeply than the mother, but we ended up buying two mattresses and setting them side by side.
Of course I'm biased, we no longer speak with a couple we were acquaintances with because it was unconscionable to let their child scream and scream all night because of "convenience", I don't know why you'd bring a child into the world to immediately abuse it. Co-sleeping obviates the "necessity" of "sleep training".
Just because something is the norm doesn't make it ethical or optimal.
>>>Co-sleeping, where the child is in the same bed as the parents, is generally considered dangerous.
Citation, please?
Yes — done wrong, it has some (very manageable) risks, but if you've gone so far as to choose to bring another human into the world it behooves you to do the modicum of reading to make sure you do it correctly.
And most of these risks (falling on the floor, etc.) are by-products of our modern era, hence were no factor in early human times.
The advantages of co-sleeping are myriad and various and many, if not most, early childhood specialists encourage the practice.
Citation, please?
Yes — done wrong, it has some (very manageable) risks, but if you've gone so far as to choose to bring another human into the world it behooves you to do the modicum of reading to make sure you do it correctly.
And most of these risks (falling on the floor, etc.) are by-products of our modern era, hence were no factor in early human times.
The advantages of co-sleeping are myriad and various and many, if not most, early childhood specialists encourage the practice.
Citations are hard due to online sources being 50/50 "This is great" and "Do this and your child will die".
But you don't have to search too far to find genuine cases of a children being smothered by sleeping parents, even more than one child by the same parent(s) for example:
* http://6abc.com/news/pa-mom-charged-after-baby-dies-while-sl...
I know different advice is given in different countries, and training is updated over time, but we were certainly told "Don't do that" by our Finnish healthcare-people, and I've seen medical literature that correlates SIDS with bed-sharing.
Some discussion is here, although to be fair I could also find 100% opposite advice elsewhere:
https://www.thebump.com/a/myths-and-truths-about-co-sleeping
But you don't have to search too far to find genuine cases of a children being smothered by sleeping parents, even more than one child by the same parent(s) for example:
* http://6abc.com/news/pa-mom-charged-after-baby-dies-while-sl...
I know different advice is given in different countries, and training is updated over time, but we were certainly told "Don't do that" by our Finnish healthcare-people, and I've seen medical literature that correlates SIDS with bed-sharing.
Some discussion is here, although to be fair I could also find 100% opposite advice elsewhere:
https://www.thebump.com/a/myths-and-truths-about-co-sleeping
Yes, what’s that advice someone gave me about parenting? Give me a theory and I’ll find evidence to support it.
This age old advice fails to take into account so many risk factors prevalent today namely medication.
Loving limits, your goal is to raise a responsible INDEPENDENT human being. Children have become train wrecks from overparenting: helpless, incapable and exhibiting bad sportsmanship. Healthy boundaries, help the child to help himself.
This age old advice fails to take into account so many risk factors prevalent today namely medication.
Loving limits, your goal is to raise a responsible INDEPENDENT human being. Children have become train wrecks from overparenting: helpless, incapable and exhibiting bad sportsmanship. Healthy boundaries, help the child to help himself.
MANY?
>>>if not most, early childhood specialists encourage the practice.
Citation please?
Obesity is a huge risk factor in cosleeping with infants.
Older children do not need to cosleep, it creates behavioral insomnia, enmeshment and increased anxiety which speaks more to the mental health of a parent than the well being of the child.
Citation please?
Obesity is a huge risk factor in cosleeping with infants.
Older children do not need to cosleep, it creates behavioral insomnia, enmeshment and increased anxiety which speaks more to the mental health of a parent than the well being of the child.
Our first was sleeping 5-6 hours after 2 weeks. Everyone told us we were lucky how easy she was.
Our second is almost 3 months old and it turns out everyone was right :) We're ecstatic if she goes for 5-6 hours, which happens only occasionally.
Both children slept in their own room from the start, but we're considering getting a co-sleeping bassinet which attaches to the side of the bed for this one.
Our second is almost 3 months old and it turns out everyone was right :) We're ecstatic if she goes for 5-6 hours, which happens only occasionally.
Both children slept in their own room from the start, but we're considering getting a co-sleeping bassinet which attaches to the side of the bed for this one.
We're in Finland so our child did sleep in a famous cardboard box, in the same room as us, for a few weeks. But then in a cot next to us as the box started to get a little beaten up.
Having the child nearby is definitely good!
Having the child nearby is definitely good!
In German, some use the term Stilldemenz, which literally means "dementia from breast feeding". It's probably related.
From the paper, it looks like the area involved is the medial pre-frontal cortex (mPFC). Give mPFC's role in memory, my initial suspicion is that the brain rhythms are a symptom, and not a cause, of memory loss. That means that fixing the brain rhythms might not fix the underlying memory problems.
It's also worthy to note that moderate exercise can improve connectivity of the mPFC, so that is at least one way to avoid these troubles.
It's also worthy to note that moderate exercise can improve connectivity of the mPFC, so that is at least one way to avoid these troubles.
One of the more fascinating parts to me was how little it took:
"If you're like 50 milliseconds too early, 50 milliseconds too late, then the storing mechanism actually doesn't work."
"If you're like 50 milliseconds too early, 50 milliseconds too late, then the storing mechanism actually doesn't work."
The cycles are 12 Hz, which is only ~80 ms between pulses. So 40 ms is exactly out of phase.
If I understand the article, it's the slow waves that have the strong correlation, and those are described as being around one per second. Fifty milliseconds is then around a tenth of the half period, so that does implies a rather important timing precision needed.
Fascinating indeed. That's not very different from the timing of common music. Could it be that our appreciation of music is somehow related to the way our brains work?
I strongly believe the many appeals of music is deeply related to many brain functions.
As a drummer, polyrythms have altered the way I sense space, balance and time.
Playing sophisticated patterns requires fine quantization of time and distributed coordination in all limbs. When you reach this you basically become better at many kinds of kinematics. You have finer control of each movements and a more abstract interpretation of the balance and state of all your limbs. It's not hard to see how valuable this would be for an animal.
Learning harmonization also tickles the brain deeply (try to isolate a 7th counterpoint like melody and enjoy the bliss).
As a drummer, polyrythms have altered the way I sense space, balance and time.
Playing sophisticated patterns requires fine quantization of time and distributed coordination in all limbs. When you reach this you basically become better at many kinds of kinematics. You have finer control of each movements and a more abstract interpretation of the balance and state of all your limbs. It's not hard to see how valuable this would be for an animal.
Learning harmonization also tickles the brain deeply (try to isolate a 7th counterpoint like melody and enjoy the bliss).
Hmm.. which common music? I like really fast music (e.g. Coltrane, Charlie Parker) and really slow (Rachmaninov 2nd Symphony, Mahler Adagietto).
The artists still produced music in tempos quite within the range of human heartbeats and / or breathing.
I think music's appeal is related to the rythmns of heartbeats. Logic being you find comfort in being close to another human, an advantage to be in pairs. Therefore the brain is hardwired to prefer rythmns around that pace.
Just my theory though
Just my theory though
One of the most popular recordings of the 20th century was basically in tempo with the resting human heart, with just that intro.
"The Dark Side of the Moon" by Pink Floyd
"The Dark Side of the Moon" by Pink Floyd
Perhaps (at-rest) heart beats and stem-level brain waves operate at the same frequency?
Yes. See Harmonic Experience: Tonal Harmony from Its Natural Origins to Its Modern Expression by W.A. Mathieu
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/114365.Harmonic_Experien...
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/114365.Harmonic_Experien...
Best thing I did for my sleep and my life was quit drinking alcohol and caffeine. I feel like I sleep twice as good and feel twice as better throughout the day. No exaggeration. But the social pressure to use these drugs is intense, as most of the population is addicted to some degree.
Both alcohol and caffeine get related to health benefits in the popular press (including science press).
Quite by accident, I've discovered that taking a microdose amount of the antipsychotic (!!) seroquel/quetiapine dramatically improves sleep quality and amount. I use about half a 25mg pill every night. You have vivid, happy (no, really) dreams, and you sleep like the dead for 8h. In fact, the depth of sleep is the only drawback, IMO, as you can't take it if you're late to bed, or you will miss work.
A moderate dose of seroquel for actual psychosis would be like 400mg, and a typical off-brand use for sleep would be like 100mg, which is what my partner was on when I decided to take one of her pills (with her consent) and see what was up. I can't recommend higher than 25mg, however.
A nice indica also helps, in my experience.
It wouldn't surprise me if bedtime use of both these things are discovered to protect memory in older adults.
A moderate dose of seroquel for actual psychosis would be like 400mg, and a typical off-brand use for sleep would be like 100mg, which is what my partner was on when I decided to take one of her pills (with her consent) and see what was up. I can't recommend higher than 25mg, however.
A nice indica also helps, in my experience.
It wouldn't surprise me if bedtime use of both these things are discovered to protect memory in older adults.
They outline the experiment they need to run, every participant gets a neuro hat but neither the participants or investigators know if the participant got a 'sync the waves' hat or a 'disrupt the waves' hat. Then look at the results and unblind the hat choices.
EDIT: From the article -- "But the study also suggests that it's possible to improve an impaired memory by re-synchronizing brain rhythms during sleep.
One way to do this would be by applying electrical or magnetic pulses through the scalp. "The idea is to boost those brain waves and bring them back together," Helfrich says.
Walker already has plans to test this approach to synchronizing brain waves."
EDIT: From the article -- "But the study also suggests that it's possible to improve an impaired memory by re-synchronizing brain rhythms during sleep.
One way to do this would be by applying electrical or magnetic pulses through the scalp. "The idea is to boost those brain waves and bring them back together," Helfrich says.
Walker already has plans to test this approach to synchronizing brain waves."
Oh geez. Wondering why my sleep quality has diminished as I got older and my memory, um... Forgot what I was going to say. 8-(
Haha, your choice in emoji gives away your age in any case.
Note that HN doesn’t support Unicode in comments, so plaintext emojis are the only option.
The point might have been that with access to emojis (on other platforms) youngsters no longer use the oldschool emojis. Use of oldschool emojis strongly suggests oldschool poster :)
Use of the word "emoticon" instead of "emoji" would also be a strong indicator :)
Some Unicode works here — like the preceding em dash and the hair spaces around it, along with bullets:
• One
• Two
• One
• Two
So does anyone have recommendations on how to improve brainwave coordination and reverse the symptoms indicated in the article? Any tips, techniques, practices, other than avoiding alcohol/caffeine?
I would recommend the book “Make your brain smarter “ by Sandra Bond Chapman.
Any good tl;dr's?
not read it, but i'm guessing her tedx is a tl;dr? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh8el8m9mLM
Is it me, or do a lot of older people snore? Is there some sort of muscle that relaxes in the throat that as we age, causes that?
And if that's the case, is a simple CPAP part of the solution to this issue?
And if that's the case, is a simple CPAP part of the solution to this issue?
Assuming we're really talking about sleep apnea, which snoring is a symptom of, and does affect your sleep in some really nasty ways. The prevalence of memory problems goes beyond what apnea would cover.
Let's talk stats for a second:
There's a buildup of fatty tissue as you age. The soft palate changes in shape, and you're more likely to gain weight. Weight is the largest component, gender is secondary, and age is tertiary. Interestingly, while sleep apnea is more likely to occur as you age, the severity goes down.
Incidence in male population goes to about 20% after the age of 75. For women, it's a bit over 10 - though that's just an estimate because women show symptoms at a different rate.
I somewhat wish apnea was the cause, for selfish reasons. There would be more drive to improve the machines, and as a bonus, these people could start getting treated.
Let's talk stats for a second:
There's a buildup of fatty tissue as you age. The soft palate changes in shape, and you're more likely to gain weight. Weight is the largest component, gender is secondary, and age is tertiary. Interestingly, while sleep apnea is more likely to occur as you age, the severity goes down.
Incidence in male population goes to about 20% after the age of 75. For women, it's a bit over 10 - though that's just an estimate because women show symptoms at a different rate.
I somewhat wish apnea was the cause, for selfish reasons. There would be more drive to improve the machines, and as a bonus, these people could start getting treated.
There's also skeletal changes with age: the facial skeleton shrinks starting in our 40s-50s.
Got a reference for severity claim? That measured in terms of AHI or significance of the events?
Got a reference for severity claim? That measured in terms of AHI or significance of the events?
Not sure if any here have tried it, but would looping a recording of isochronic delta-wave tones during sleep help sync brain rhythms?
This was my thought too. I use these nightly and sleep like a baby. I'd argue that it's also past the point of being a placebo, as I have done this for over a year and have only found a couple of tones that are actually effective. This is the current favorite:
https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/isochronicBrainwaveGenerat...
https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/isochronicBrainwaveGenerat...
I wonder if this is at all related to the idea of interactive metronome therapy. See https://www.interactivemetronome.com/what-is-im
Im seems to be about improving "Neurotiming".
Im seems to be about improving "Neurotiming".
Looks like I'm going to be the guy to shout "correlation is not causation" today.
What if older brains decide to filter more, store less and this is reflected in the brainwave patterns? A young brain might go "accept accept accept accept...." whereas an older brain might go "accept reject reject accept reject...". I'm pretty happy about having forgotten a lot of stuff.
After all, the older you get, the more you have to throw out to accommodate new memories. And it's mostly trash. So why remember it over sweet youth?
What if older brains decide to filter more, store less and this is reflected in the brainwave patterns? A young brain might go "accept accept accept accept...." whereas an older brain might go "accept reject reject accept reject...". I'm pretty happy about having forgotten a lot of stuff.
After all, the older you get, the more you have to throw out to accommodate new memories. And it's mostly trash. So why remember it over sweet youth?
> To confirm the finding, though, researchers will have to show that it's possible to cause memory problems in a young brain by disrupting these rhythms, Seibt says.
To be fair, the article does say this, albeit without discussing it very much.
To be fair, the article does say this, albeit without discussing it very much.
The other correlation/causation error is the idea that the desynchronization of the waves is a cause of the issue rather than a symptom. It's a bit like listening to a car's engine and saying that cars that go slowly are doing so because their engines are emitting a low-pitched sound instead of a higher-pitched one.
We're talking specifically about people forgetting things that they want to remember, I don't think your hypothesis applies.
It might be harder for older brains to forget the right stuff.
Wanting to remember something and remembering something isn't as much of a conscious choice as we would like.
I have noticed that my recall speed is exponential in the quality of sleep and exercise. If I work out, have a great sleep (post exercise sauna), I am sharp. If I trash myself, I have a noticeable 500ms+ access latency. Not for concepts, but for words. Words always take longer.
Wanting to remember something and remembering something isn't as much of a conscious choice as we would like.
I have noticed that my recall speed is exponential in the quality of sleep and exercise. If I work out, have a great sleep (post exercise sauna), I am sharp. If I trash myself, I have a noticeable 500ms+ access latency. Not for concepts, but for words. Words always take longer.
so basically proving the old adage that it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks ..but maybe we can get around this by wearing electrodes on our heads to fix this as we get older, one can only hope.
I've been wondering about this lately. Honestly, and it kind of pains me to say this, I'm coming to the conclusion that alcohol is Bad.
Hey, quit laughing - I don't think that it is necessarily unhealthy to try and smooth out some of the bumps along life's road, but there have got to be better ways. And don't say, 'exercise.'
The cognitive hits of alcohol are just looking like they're too long term. Not even over a lifetime, but over a week. With all the information coming in about how it messes with our REM cycles and potentially inhibits learning that took place over the past day or two from sticking to your brain...I dunno.
What is the point of dropping your day's problems on the floor in the evening if doing so prevents you from learning or benefiting from the experience?
Edit: By which I mean, alcohol seems to cause a lot of issues around what your brain does while it sleeps, which seems to be what this article is calling out as a problem that can be exacerbated with age. Sorry, I guess I kind of jumped between topics there...
Hey, quit laughing - I don't think that it is necessarily unhealthy to try and smooth out some of the bumps along life's road, but there have got to be better ways. And don't say, 'exercise.'
The cognitive hits of alcohol are just looking like they're too long term. Not even over a lifetime, but over a week. With all the information coming in about how it messes with our REM cycles and potentially inhibits learning that took place over the past day or two from sticking to your brain...I dunno.
What is the point of dropping your day's problems on the floor in the evening if doing so prevents you from learning or benefiting from the experience?
Edit: By which I mean, alcohol seems to cause a lot of issues around what your brain does while it sleeps, which seems to be what this article is calling out as a problem that can be exacerbated with age. Sorry, I guess I kind of jumped between topics there...
"Glib advice aside, what is the recommendation when it comes to sleep and alcohol? It is hard not to sound puritanical, but the evidence is so strong regarding alcohol's harmful effects on sleep that to do otherwise would be doing you, and the science, a disservice. Many people enjoy a glass of wine with dinner, even an aperitif thereafter. But it takes your liver and kidneys many hours to degrade and excrete that alcohol, even if you are an individual with fast-acting enzymes for ethanol decomposition. Nightly alcohol will disrupt your sleep, and the annoying advice of abstinence is the best, and most honest, I can offer."
- page 246, Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker
Walker is one of the authors of the paper discussed in the article.
- page 246, Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker
Walker is one of the authors of the paper discussed in the article.
I stopped drinking alcohol when I was 18 (I am 33 now) as I could see it was effecting how well I could study. Poor sleep, hang overs, etc. made me want to take a break for a few months to concentrate on other things in my life.
6 months later I realised life was way better without alcohol. I was more motivated, I slept much better, I felt better, I could study and retain things much better than before.
I wasn't a super heavy drinker, I am from the UK so started to drink with friends at around 16. Over the past 15 years binge drinking has become a big problem IMHO. I feel I am lucky to have avoided that!
So here I am 15 years later and still not drinking at all. I would recommend taking a year off alcohol and see how it changes your life. Maybe it won't make as big a difference as it did for me but I would be shocked if it didn't make some noticeable differences to your brain.
6 months later I realised life was way better without alcohol. I was more motivated, I slept much better, I felt better, I could study and retain things much better than before.
I wasn't a super heavy drinker, I am from the UK so started to drink with friends at around 16. Over the past 15 years binge drinking has become a big problem IMHO. I feel I am lucky to have avoided that!
So here I am 15 years later and still not drinking at all. I would recommend taking a year off alcohol and see how it changes your life. Maybe it won't make as big a difference as it did for me but I would be shocked if it didn't make some noticeable differences to your brain.
Couldn't agree more. UK here as well and there is a rather idiotic culture of social and binge drinking which I got into in the mid 1990s driven by "the pub" and "the club". I quit alcohol entirely in 2002 (15 years ago as well!) after getting married and decided to replace it with the magical elixir that cures all ills: water.
The revelation of water came from having a saline drip after an accident. I felt fantastic afterwards. Full of energy, drive and able to actually process things in my brain. Turned out I'd spent the few years before this point entirely shrivelled up with dehydration caused by drinking only tea and alcohol.
Trying to shake the caffeine monkey of my back now. That's just as bad. Drinking lots of water does help however.
The revelation of water came from having a saline drip after an accident. I felt fantastic afterwards. Full of energy, drive and able to actually process things in my brain. Turned out I'd spent the few years before this point entirely shrivelled up with dehydration caused by drinking only tea and alcohol.
Trying to shake the caffeine monkey of my back now. That's just as bad. Drinking lots of water does help however.
Currently taking a break from caffeine now too. Just had lunch at my favorite place, the usual staff knows to serve me a huge mason jar of sweet tea (its a barbeque joint). I was bracing myself to refuse and ask for water - but a different guy was on duty. So no problem.
But I feel the gravitational pull of caffeine every time I see the road sign for one of my regular places. It almost a physical rush.
But I feel the gravitational pull of caffeine every time I see the road sign for one of my regular places. It almost a physical rush.
I would love to completely put alcohol aside as you did. However, I don't know how I would put beer and wine aside permanently. I couldn't tell you the last time I had a cocktail or distilled alcoholic beverage, but I love to drink craft beers and occasionally a glass of wine, solely for the taste. I cannot stand the feeling of being buzzed or drunk, I just enjoy drinking a few beers on Friday and Saturday night. I've noticed that it does affect my sleep though as I am often tired on Saturday and Sunday, even if I got 8-9 hours of sleep.
I have a similar issue with other foods, like cheesecake. I love eating cheesecake on occasion but every time I eat it the very high fat and sugar content upsets my stomach.
I have a similar issue with other foods, like cheesecake. I love eating cheesecake on occasion but every time I eat it the very high fat and sugar content upsets my stomach.
Maybe move the beer and wine to lunch giving the body time to break it down?
I recently got an apple watch and along the way installed a sleep tracking app. I was skeptical of its accuracy until I realized that I could identify the nights I'd been drinking with 100% accuracy as those nights the tracker didn't seem to think I slept hardly at all. I always knew I'd be tired the next day but this was eye opening.
What app did you use? I want to try this also.
Anecdotal, but my fitbit gave me the same result.
Every single time I had drunk - even 1-2 - there was a spike of restlessness that night, 10-20 restless periods vs the 3-4 I would have normally.
Every single time I had drunk - even 1-2 - there was a spike of restlessness that night, 10-20 restless periods vs the 3-4 I would have normally.
This is because alcohol is an anesthetic. And the human body will tend to wake up after an anesthetic wears off. I believe the anesthetic properties of alcohol lasts roughly 4 hours, so if you sleep you'll probably begin to stir and wake up 4 hours after your last drink. Very similar to surgery patients who naturally wake up after the anesthetic used for surgery wears off.
That's just how sleep works. Everyone's REM sleep cycles last 90-120 minutes.
https://www.howsleepworks.com/types_rem.html
https://www.howsleepworks.com/types_rem.html
4 hours for me like clockwork after a few drinks before bed.
This is crazy but I'm pretty similar, is this a documented effect that I could read more about?
Almost always after a night of heavy drinking I wake from anywhere between 5am - 8am and have a rough time getting back to sleep for at least a few hours. Knowing my drinking patterns, those times would tend to correlate to about 4 hours earlier passing out.
Almost always after a night of heavy drinking I wake from anywhere between 5am - 8am and have a rough time getting back to sleep for at least a few hours. Knowing my drinking patterns, those times would tend to correlate to about 4 hours earlier passing out.
This happens to many people in around the same timeframe, I'm pretty sure it's due to GABA rebound https://www.nature.com/scitable/blog/mind-read/alcohol_sleep...
From what I recall, alcohol binds to GABA receptors, GABA builds up in the body, eventually metabolizes to glutamate which takes a few hours depending on how much you drink, but seems to be around half a night's sleep. The glutamate wakes you up and gives you energy, hence the strange "feeling great after a night of drinking on no sleep" thing.
From what I recall, alcohol binds to GABA receptors, GABA builds up in the body, eventually metabolizes to glutamate which takes a few hours depending on how much you drink, but seems to be around half a night's sleep. The glutamate wakes you up and gives you energy, hence the strange "feeling great after a night of drinking on no sleep" thing.
Ya, I just got an apple watch a couple of weeks ago and noticed this as well. It's crazy - ~4 hours of deep sleep on a normal night and 1.5-2 on a night where I've had even just a single drink
As a completely anecdotal and medically irrelevant personal counterpoint, I actually frequently find myself having much better sleep after having had two glasses of good cognac before sleep. I've certainly not made a daily habit of it, nor do I recommend it to anyone else, but the observation is rather consistent for me.
I do have a host of sleep quality issues in general, and I'm a very pronounced "night owl". Perhaps that has something to do with it, I don't know.
I do have a host of sleep quality issues in general, and I'm a very pronounced "night owl". Perhaps that has something to do with it, I don't know.
I don't understand the relevance of this comment. The article makes no reference to alcohol.
Agreed, but I'm super interested in learning more if there's evidence.
The whole sleep rhythm thing; sorry, I've just read a handful of articles in the past few weeks talking about how alcohol disrupts our normal sleep cycles which prevents a lot of the brain's...I dunno, whatever hygiene it has to do when we sleep. And that is what the article is about.
I'm 33 and I've definitely lost interest in drinking. I'll do it on occasion at social things, but I usually partake in very limited amounts. (My girlfriend is actually a little sad that she's never had a chance to see me wasted.) It might just be that my body can't handle it anymore, but sometime over the last few years it just lost its appeal.
The thing is: alcohol is a very crude intoxicant, and we seem to have arbitrarily standardized on it as the Socially Acceptable Drug. I know this is obvious, but it really is stupid and it's worth reminding people how stupid it is.
I mean, take khat, for instance. Khat is a stimulant chewed by people in Yemen; it's their socially acceptable drug-of-choice. (It's so popular in Yemen that its cultivation consumes a significant portion of the country's agricultural resources.) But here? It's a controlled substance. Why? I don't know. Our drug laws are just crazy stupid.
I feel like we could do so much better in terms of recreational substances. People are finally getting smart about cannabis, but there are still so many possibilities we're not exploring. The fact that we're stuck with alcohol is ridiculous. Hell, even opioids are less harmful to the body than alcohol is (if taken at a steady, stable dose, which I guess is the hard part).
We should definitely be spending most of our scientific brainpower on curing diseases, but I feel like we could spare a few brilliant minds to work on better intoxicants. The masses deserve a safer opiate.
The thing is: alcohol is a very crude intoxicant, and we seem to have arbitrarily standardized on it as the Socially Acceptable Drug. I know this is obvious, but it really is stupid and it's worth reminding people how stupid it is.
I mean, take khat, for instance. Khat is a stimulant chewed by people in Yemen; it's their socially acceptable drug-of-choice. (It's so popular in Yemen that its cultivation consumes a significant portion of the country's agricultural resources.) But here? It's a controlled substance. Why? I don't know. Our drug laws are just crazy stupid.
I feel like we could do so much better in terms of recreational substances. People are finally getting smart about cannabis, but there are still so many possibilities we're not exploring. The fact that we're stuck with alcohol is ridiculous. Hell, even opioids are less harmful to the body than alcohol is (if taken at a steady, stable dose, which I guess is the hard part).
We should definitely be spending most of our scientific brainpower on curing diseases, but I feel like we could spare a few brilliant minds to work on better intoxicants. The masses deserve a safer opiate.
Khat is a good deal stupider as drug-of-choice in Yemen than alcohol would be. It's a crop that takes up tons of the scarce arable land and even more scarce water in a very poor country in which 17% of income is spent on khat.
More stupid? Alcohol kills 16,000 people in car crashes alone. 88,000 alcohol related deaths a year making it the third most popular cause of preventable death.
Then there’s it’s relationship with sexual assault and date rape as well.
Then there’s it’s relationship with sexual assault and date rape as well.
It's not that alcohol is good, it's that it'd be better than khat for Yemen.
For example: Yemen has 35 cars per 1000 people to the US's 797. Yemen would have to leapfrog through several stages of development for drunken driving to become a blip on their public health radar.
Half of that country currently doesn't have clean water, and they're draining their acquifers dry … to grow khat. https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals...
Cholera outbreaks and a water-scarcity exacerbated civil war are simply a different class of problem.
For example: Yemen has 35 cars per 1000 people to the US's 797. Yemen would have to leapfrog through several stages of development for drunken driving to become a blip on their public health radar.
Half of that country currently doesn't have clean water, and they're draining their acquifers dry … to grow khat. https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals...
Cholera outbreaks and a water-scarcity exacerbated civil war are simply a different class of problem.
They have similar/almost identical preoccupations, ie, the preservation of one's mental capacities when aging
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I stopped drinking 20 months ago. Australia has a big drinking culture so not drinking is confusing to friends and family. I've found that it's had a huge positive impact on my life - much improved mental function, motivation and stress/emotion management. I'll likely never drink again.
Alcohol isn't mentioned once in the linked article - what is the context here?
Alcohol consumption ruins your chance at good sleep.
https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh25-2/101-109.htm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23347102
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21323679
https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh25-2/101-109.htm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23347102
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21323679
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Agreed that alcohol is Bad. Not related to sleep, but there is also lots of science stacking up now on the connection between alcohol and cancer.
are you saying alcohol is the cause of... and solution to... all of life's problems?
I'd be interested in knowing how many of the prescription drugs common among older adults have REM disruption as a side-effect. I wonder if that's even tested for. Perhaps we're managing one set of ills only to create another?