Emails suggest reviews from the Wirecutter are “pay to play” (2014)(xdesk.com)
xdesk.com
Emails suggest reviews from the Wirecutter are “pay to play” (2014)
https://www.xdesk.com/wirecutter-standing-desk-review-pay-to-play-model
44 comments
"This happened in 2014, why the hell is this being brought up now?"
I just found out about it, and thought others might be interested. I have used The Wirecutter reviews to make purchasing decisions. For me, this incident just a few years ago makes me doubt their objectivity today.
I just found out about it, and thought others might be interested. I have used The Wirecutter reviews to make purchasing decisions. For me, this incident just a few years ago makes me doubt their objectivity today.
Thank you for posting this, definitely interesting and useful.
Seems like Wirecutter's response didn't respond to things they didn't want to talk about. Looking at their standing desk guide now, they still haven't reviewed any of the newer xdesks. Kinda surprised Wirecutter got away with the better end of this.
FYI seems like this article was posted in 2016, not sure why it's labeled 2014.
It actually has an update from 2017.
I put 2014 based on the date of the original emails. I see no "published on" date on the page.
I put 2014 based on the date of the original emails. I see no "published on" date on the page.
The folks that made outdoorgearlab.com have always struck me as being very honest and real with their reviews. I've bought thousands of dollars of outdoor / climbing gear from their recommendations and generally agree with their assessment.
They started a tech oriented site and I would tend to trust it: https://www.techgearlab.com/
From their FAQ:
Q: Do companies pay you to review their gear? A: No, we never receive money from companies for reviewing their gear.
Q: How do you get the gear for your reviews? A: We buy all the products we review ourselves, at retail just like you, to help assure complete objectivity and independence in our ratings. We won't accept any free evaluation units from manufacturers.
They started a tech oriented site and I would tend to trust it: https://www.techgearlab.com/
From their FAQ:
Q: Do companies pay you to review their gear? A: No, we never receive money from companies for reviewing their gear.
Q: How do you get the gear for your reviews? A: We buy all the products we review ourselves, at retail just like you, to help assure complete objectivity and independence in our ratings. We won't accept any free evaluation units from manufacturers.
Yeah, it’s a fantastic resource. I really only care about crampons when I need to buy a new pair and they are the perfect place to look. I didn’t know they were expanding!
About the only source of reviews I would believe isn't primarily paid advertorials is Consumer Reports, and those have to be filtered through CR's own particular set of biases. Even sites that aren't blatantly pay to play (and Wirecutter was pretty obviously in that camp basically from the very start) are usually compromised by being provided expensive hardware they could not economically review otherwise, and know that negative reviews will cut them off from the very thing that enables them to exist.
Picking signal out of the shill review background noise is really hard these days.
Picking signal out of the shill review background noise is really hard these days.
Fakespot can really help for the biggest sites with reviews [0]. Previous to using it, I just ignored Amazon reviews completely. But this does a really good job of cutting through the shit to get something approaching public sentiment. Half of my buying decision these days is actually whether or not the company has a history of buying reviews for their products.
[0] https://fakespot.com
[0] https://fakespot.com
I...always thought they were pretty up front that their revenue model was affiliate marketing.
Affiliate marketing when it's offered is one thing.
Requesting affiliate marketing when it's not offered, is another (but still OK).
Pushing for affiliate marketing and when not getting it, changing your review, is something totally else and NOT OK.
And of course, considering only products with affiliate marketing, is the opposite of "objective review site".
Requesting affiliate marketing when it's not offered, is another (but still OK).
Pushing for affiliate marketing and when not getting it, changing your review, is something totally else and NOT OK.
And of course, considering only products with affiliate marketing, is the opposite of "objective review site".
And pushing for affiliate revenue, then changing your review, then lying that the new top pick does not have any affiliate revenue either is even worse.
(They claimed their new top pick also didn't have an affiliate relationship. But the way back machine archive showed that they were in fact linking to the new desk via an Amazon affiliate link.)
(They claimed their new top pick also didn't have an affiliate relationship. But the way back machine archive showed that they were in fact linking to the new desk via an Amazon affiliate link.)
They are, but they've always claimed that the presence of an affilate link, or the percentage they got from it, didn't affect their recommendation and they would happily recommend the best product even if they got no $ from it. Anyone living in the real world knew that was 100% bullshit.
How do you know it's BS? It is possible to be genuine and honest (I'm not claiming that's the case here).
I'd ask what proportion of recommendations didn't have affiliate links, as a marker.
I'd ask what proportion of recommendations didn't have affiliate links, as a marker.
From the article, the CEO, who is soliciting the kickbacks, claims that he is also writing review articles.
So that right there proves they are lying about keeping editorial and business separate.
As for top products without an affiliate link, I am yet to find one.
So that right there proves they are lying about keeping editorial and business separate.
As for top products without an affiliate link, I am yet to find one.
It's BS because no media company has ever operated its editorial fully independently of its revenue model, and if any has come close it's the old-school newspapers owned by fat cats, not startups reviewing tech products.
>How do you know it's BS? It is possible to be genuine and honest (I'm not claiming that's the case here).
From the proof in TFA, for one.
From the proof in TFA, for one.
While they have been upfront about affiliate marketing, they haven't been upfront that a product that is shortlisted in their guides would be downgraded if it didn't have an affiliate program. Essentially no one would assume that a vendor having (or not having) an affiliate program would affect the relative ranking of the guide's recommendations.
All affiliate sites eventually become this way. As a data point from someone who owns a NextDesk Terra and a Jarvis Fully, though, I agree with the basic point of the article. The Jarvis is functionally equivalent to the NextDesk even though the NextDesk is clearly a more luxe and high-end product. I'd compare the difference to the Acura and Infiniti Q45 that I owned... both were great cars and totally reliable, and I crashed both of them badly and walked away unscathed, but the Infiniti was just one level higher in fit and finish.
I've bought several things on recommendation from the Wirecutter, and repeatedly been disappointed, so this is not so surprising - what a shame.
IMO they have the same problem as most online review sites. The reviewers lack the industry knowledge needed to assess a product in isolation, so they end up with reviews where products are compared to each other. A review of dozen piece of trash products always ends with a recommendation even if they’re all a waste of money.
IE: Check out our review for the tastiest dog shit of 2018.
IE: Check out our review for the tastiest dog shit of 2018.
They actually occasionally write reviews that tell you not to buy any product in a category. For example, "The Best Automatic Cat Litter Box (But We Don’t Recommend It)".(https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-automatic-cat-litter-...)
My guess is that affiliate revenues for automatic cat litter boxes are somewhat low. Judging by their behavior and response to these allegations, I'm inclined to think that, if the product was higher volume, they would go ahead and recommend it wholeheartedly.
I've bought a few things after reading their reviews, but since found a select few youtubers who seem more genuine (e.g. RocketJumpNinja for gaming mice).
I've always been happy with their recommendations, but they were not higher-end electronics and more thesweethome stuff.
What are the biggest disappoitnments?
The worst was the Pioneer XW-SMA4-K bluetooth speaker they recommended. Obsolete just a couple of months after I bought it, and performance was just ok. Had to hook it up to a timer to reset it at least once a week or else it'd stop showing up on Airplay.
There was something else I bought (can't recall which) that I was disappointed with, so when I was looking at treadmills and security cameras, I looked at their reviews more carefully. Trying to corroborate their positive reviews elsewhere turned me off their conclusions.
There was something else I bought (can't recall which) that I was disappointed with, so when I was looking at treadmills and security cameras, I looked at their reviews more carefully. Trying to corroborate their positive reviews elsewhere turned me off their conclusions.
Agreed, their bluetooth speaker reviews were lackluster. Ended up getting a UE Boom 2 after researching it myself and have been very happy. But for their other guides like travel gear, bluetooth headphones, monitors I've generally been happy with their picks. I usually pick the upgrade option when possible.
I was just about to look up wirecutter review for Bluetooth speakers, I don't suppose you found a reliable opinion on the stubbier UE WonderBoom?
In my case I found a very detailed review on Amazon that compared it to a few competitors. I suspect UE makes good speakers overall though. For the UE Boom 2, it's sound quality was significantly better than the Anker speaker I tried and supposedly only 2nd to the Bose Soundlink Mini which is 2x the price and not waterproof.
I have two of those speakers, and I’m actually quite happy with them.
The Wirecutter was bought by the NYT in 2016: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-13/new-york-...
If it is a standard affiliate program he is after, why does he not just say that in the email?
I don’t think there is anything wrong for Wirecutter to say “hey, we make money from affiliate sales - do you guys have a program we can sign up to?”. That’s totally cool. But he does such an awful job of saying that and makes it sound so much worse.
I don’t think there is anything wrong for Wirecutter to say “hey, we make money from affiliate sales - do you guys have a program we can sign up to?”. That’s totally cool. But he does such an awful job of saying that and makes it sound so much worse.
Can't believe he actually used the word "kickbacks." At least he's being transparent.
FWIW, Wirecutter (and sister site Sweethome) were purchased by NYTimes in 2016.
From the about on their site (https://thewirecutter.com/about/): "Do your affiliate commissions make you biased?
Up front: Our writers and editors are never made aware of which companies may have established affiliate relationships with our business team prior to making their picks. If readers choose to buy the products we recommend as a result of our research, analysis, interviews, and testing, our work is often (but not always) supported through an affiliate commission from the _retailer_ when they make a purchase. If readers return their purchases because they’re dissatisfied or the recommendation is bad, we make nothing. There’s no incentive for us to pick inferior products or respond to pressure from manufacturers—in fact, it’s quite the opposite. We think that’s a pretty fair system that keeps us committed to serving our readers first.
The most important thing to us is the trust we have from readers. If we were to recommend something because we are biased or lazy, readers like you wouldn’t support our work. We also invite you to fact-check our pieces, which carefully outline the time, logic, and energy spent researching, interviewing experts, and testing the gear. Often, this takes dozens—sometimes even hundreds—of hours. Each guide plainly lays out all the evidence for why we made our picks so you can judge for yourself."
I think the distinction that this is affiliate marketing for the retailers -- not the product manufacturers themselves -- is an important one to make. Also, I think their path of separating business from editorial is entirely sensible for a NYTimes company.
That being said, reviews (and review sites) always fall under "buyer beware" in my mind (I once read a 1 star review of a DVD player stating that it gave it 1 star because it wasn't a VHS player...seriously).
From the about on their site (https://thewirecutter.com/about/): "Do your affiliate commissions make you biased?
Up front: Our writers and editors are never made aware of which companies may have established affiliate relationships with our business team prior to making their picks. If readers choose to buy the products we recommend as a result of our research, analysis, interviews, and testing, our work is often (but not always) supported through an affiliate commission from the _retailer_ when they make a purchase. If readers return their purchases because they’re dissatisfied or the recommendation is bad, we make nothing. There’s no incentive for us to pick inferior products or respond to pressure from manufacturers—in fact, it’s quite the opposite. We think that’s a pretty fair system that keeps us committed to serving our readers first.
The most important thing to us is the trust we have from readers. If we were to recommend something because we are biased or lazy, readers like you wouldn’t support our work. We also invite you to fact-check our pieces, which carefully outline the time, logic, and energy spent researching, interviewing experts, and testing the gear. Often, this takes dozens—sometimes even hundreds—of hours. Each guide plainly lays out all the evidence for why we made our picks so you can judge for yourself."
I think the distinction that this is affiliate marketing for the retailers -- not the product manufacturers themselves -- is an important one to make. Also, I think their path of separating business from editorial is entirely sensible for a NYTimes company.
That being said, reviews (and review sites) always fall under "buyer beware" in my mind (I once read a 1 star review of a DVD player stating that it gave it 1 star because it wasn't a VHS player...seriously).
I don't think getting affiliate revenues is necessarily a problem, however, there is an inherent conflict of interest considering that different retailers pay different affiliate rates and some manufacturers sell direct and pay higher affiliate commissions.
Also, getting a commission on sales encourages the reviewers to select more expensive options.
I usually like Wirecutter reviews. But I do find that they sometimes seem to favor more expensive options when cheaper alternatives are nearly the same or better. (Even their budget pick tends to be high and sometimes I think the budget pick should be the overall pick).
You will see a lot of products frequently at the top of review lists (not just Wirecutter) that are not sold on Amazon. These are usually sold at a premium direct from the manufacturer and a higher commission can be paid. (15-25%)
The thermapen thermometer is one of these. They will always link directly to thermoworks website, who is the sole distributor in the US. I'm sure they pay a higher commission than Amazon's 8% for comparable but cheaper alternatives like the javelin.
Also, getting a commission on sales encourages the reviewers to select more expensive options.
I usually like Wirecutter reviews. But I do find that they sometimes seem to favor more expensive options when cheaper alternatives are nearly the same or better. (Even their budget pick tends to be high and sometimes I think the budget pick should be the overall pick).
You will see a lot of products frequently at the top of review lists (not just Wirecutter) that are not sold on Amazon. These are usually sold at a premium direct from the manufacturer and a higher commission can be paid. (15-25%)
The thermapen thermometer is one of these. They will always link directly to thermoworks website, who is the sole distributor in the US. I'm sure they pay a higher commission than Amazon's 8% for comparable but cheaper alternatives like the javelin.
RIP. What's a good alternative?
For tech products I always presume that "pay to play" is a component of the reviews from a review source. Even if it's not explicit the large brands buy a lot of the advertising and will get some 'editorial compensation' almost certainly.
This doesn't mean the reviews are worthless though. By checking several sources of reviews for the same product type one can often get a sense of which are really the top products. After all, a review site would look pretty bad if it really promoted a dog product that no other reviewer liked. What does often get over looked though are the really good products from small suppliers.
This doesn't mean the reviews are worthless though. By checking several sources of reviews for the same product type one can often get a sense of which are really the top products. After all, a review site would look pretty bad if it really promoted a dog product that no other reviewer liked. What does often get over looked though are the really good products from small suppliers.
Wouldn't it be fairly easy for, say, the FTC to expose such behavior? Why aren't they putting review sites to the test on a regular basis?
Wirecutter was since bought by the New York Times, which gives a lot more journalistic credibility IMO.
Also NOT published and considered in this flame throwing is Wirecutter's response. There is a clear agenda. I only know this fiasco because I spent hours looking for a standing desk yesterday.
- In terms of durability: laminate > bamboo > powdercoat. Powdercoat feels EXTREMELY nice, but it's made of compacted shards so not really lasting.
- Most use Chinese motors but they're not really an issue.
- Just get whatever is the cheapest from a common brand. Fully (Jarvis), UPLIFT, VertDesk are all good. Jarvis and UPLIFT are similarly priced but UPLIFT's bamboo table is thicker. Xdesk is personally too expensive for something I would go to Herman Miller or Steelcase for a similarly priced desk.
- The wobble at high heights for the ones above ^ exists but is in practice not really an issue (at like the maximum height where your arms would be at an uncomfortable position then). Personally, I only want a standing desk so I can adjust to a good height for my chair, so I would never use it to stand at 5' for hours at a time. BTOD produces good reviews on YouTube and their site but keep in mind they create the VertDesk.
https://thewirecutter.com/our-response-to-nextdesk/