Blue-collar workers who become white-collar later in life(melmagazine.com)
melmagazine.com
Blue-collar workers who become white-collar later in life
https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/blue-collar-to-white-collar-work-jobs
126 comments
Pharmaceutical supply company line worker, warehouse truck loader, dishwasher assembly line worker, gas station attendant. I had blue collar work from 16 until about 30. Under grad then grad school. Technical writer, jr developer, sr developer, architect. It’s been an insane transition. And the biggest part that gets me is when people complain about workload. I try to temper myself because I know my lived experience is vastly different than nearly everyone I work with. But when Jrs complain about having too much to do or something being a lot of work I can’t help but remember unloading hundred pound boxes from the back of a scalding hot truck in the North Carolina summer and chuckle to myself.
I never worked as long as you did as blue collar but I did work for a while with decently heavy physical work and it was taxing in a lot of way. The grind could get to you from to time to time.
But for me it was also a type of work where I put in some heavy work and got physically tired and slept well at night without a thought of the job. In my current project I'm in a leading position in some high profile projects and there will be high stakes decision that needs to be taken, there will be drama and opinions and you will need to learn a lot of things in a short time. Even if I would go home at a reasonable time I can still en up googling possible solutions to problems at work in the evening or thinking about how I should reply to an email.
That is mentally taxing in a different way and for me often as equally difficult to cope with as working in a tough physical job all day.
But for me it was also a type of work where I put in some heavy work and got physically tired and slept well at night without a thought of the job. In my current project I'm in a leading position in some high profile projects and there will be high stakes decision that needs to be taken, there will be drama and opinions and you will need to learn a lot of things in a short time. Even if I would go home at a reasonable time I can still en up googling possible solutions to problems at work in the evening or thinking about how I should reply to an email.
That is mentally taxing in a different way and for me often as equally difficult to cope with as working in a tough physical job all day.
For me, proper perspective has been the best help there. You seem qualified enough to be able to find other work if the worst happens, and the worst is unlikely to happen.
This doesn’t mean be lazy. It means relax, and you’ll probably find that you do better work that way.
Unless someone’s life is directly on the line (maybe it is and I’m wrong), the stakes being high is often just a story we’re telling ourselves.
This doesn’t mean be lazy. It means relax, and you’ll probably find that you do better work that way.
Unless someone’s life is directly on the line (maybe it is and I’m wrong), the stakes being high is often just a story we’re telling ourselves.
Never worked for a failing startup, huh? Okay sure, you might be able to find a job after it, but when you are trying to keep it going and every decision you make could make or break the company, it's hard not to feel the stress, especially if you really enjoy what you're doing.
Also being one of four people that helped a parent company lose a couple million dollars doesn't feel great either.
Or work for a large company where if you screw up it could result in all of your major clients terminating their contracts and the parent corporation deciding to close an entire department resulting in hundreds of people losing their jobs. That's the situation I'm in right now. Thankfully I'm not TOO high on that totem pole that I feel all the stress in the world, and we're probably only delaying the inevitable in the long run, but it is very difficult to relax.
Also being one of four people that helped a parent company lose a couple million dollars doesn't feel great either.
Or work for a large company where if you screw up it could result in all of your major clients terminating their contracts and the parent corporation deciding to close an entire department resulting in hundreds of people losing their jobs. That's the situation I'm in right now. Thankfully I'm not TOO high on that totem pole that I feel all the stress in the world, and we're probably only delaying the inevitable in the long run, but it is very difficult to relax.
These all sound like situations that aren’t worth the fuss.
If the person can identify the fuss, then they can ask for compensation and see if they think it’s worth the fuss. In business everything is always at the stress level of results or nothing, but one doesn’t have to be close to the business if you don’t like the stress.
You make it sound as though stress is inherent, versus a product of unsavoriness.
Never worked for the military, huh? Okay sure, you might get fired for a wrong or dumb decision, but you can still live and be fine.
In the military where if you screw up it could result in all of your buddies dying. That was my situation when I was 18.
Listen, it's going to be alright. Breathe. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. It's going to be okay.
In the military where if you screw up it could result in all of your buddies dying. That was my situation when I was 18.
Listen, it's going to be alright. Breathe. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. It's going to be okay.
Are you the owner/founder? If not, why are you even stressing about the startup's demise?
> But for me it was also a type of work where I put in some heavy work and got physically tired and slept well at night without a thought of the job.
I have a friend who went the other way: worked as a nuclear engineer but eventually got fed up and became a chef (he runs a restaurant in Palo Alto). As he put it to me “when I go home work is over. I don’t have many tasks that span days.”
I have a friend who went the other way: worked as a nuclear engineer but eventually got fed up and became a chef (he runs a restaurant in Palo Alto). As he put it to me “when I go home work is over. I don’t have many tasks that span days.”
The worst is when you make a decision that will take weeks or longer to play out.
I have been busy when I worked in a factory and had estops going off, but when the shift is over, Not my problem... Although don't make a mess.
I have been busy when I worked in a factory and had estops going off, but when the shift is over, Not my problem... Although don't make a mess.
>>>make a decision that will take weeks or longer to play out
This is a hardware engineers on going struggle.
This is a hardware engineers on going struggle.
If you're not already, you should try getting enough exorcise to exhaust you during your off time.
BSD user?
Undoubtedly there are really hard jobs. I'd put a mover on that list as well, along with oil field worker.
But it seems dismissive to say a dev can't claim burnout because they aren't doing something physical. When a junior dev, I once went into the office 23 days in a row and was usually there until 11 pm or midnight, sometimes later, sometimes earlier. I got burned out and left. It wasn't good for my health or relationships. I bet if you worked hours like that loading a truck you at least would have gotten overtime.
But it seems dismissive to say a dev can't claim burnout because they aren't doing something physical. When a junior dev, I once went into the office 23 days in a row and was usually there until 11 pm or midnight, sometimes later, sometimes earlier. I got burned out and left. It wasn't good for my health or relationships. I bet if you worked hours like that loading a truck you at least would have gotten overtime.
How many of those days and hours were spent inside an air conditioned room with a bathroom and, probably, a kitchen/cafeteria?
I work in engineering for construction - when we were building Bertha's rescue shaft in Seattle the crews worked 5 months straight drilling holes and placing concrete with two crews on 12 hour shifts with only July 4 and Memorial Day off. When we excavated the shaft and repaired the machine we switched to three 8s and ran for almost another year.
Rain or shine, hot or cold, day or night. We worked that job every day. Nobody left until we switched to 8s because guys wanted to work 10s on another job - that's just blue collar work. In fact, that's the type of blue collar work that guys want because the OT pays the bills so you're right about that. The management on the project? Worked 1.5x as many hours as the crew because they would normally cover a shift and a transition. Every one salaried. Nobody left.
What the tech industry complains about for working conditions makes me laugh.
I work in engineering for construction - when we were building Bertha's rescue shaft in Seattle the crews worked 5 months straight drilling holes and placing concrete with two crews on 12 hour shifts with only July 4 and Memorial Day off. When we excavated the shaft and repaired the machine we switched to three 8s and ran for almost another year.
Rain or shine, hot or cold, day or night. We worked that job every day. Nobody left until we switched to 8s because guys wanted to work 10s on another job - that's just blue collar work. In fact, that's the type of blue collar work that guys want because the OT pays the bills so you're right about that. The management on the project? Worked 1.5x as many hours as the crew because they would normally cover a shift and a transition. Every one salaried. Nobody left.
What the tech industry complains about for working conditions makes me laugh.
the OT pays the bills
Another way to look at this is that people are underpaid just enough to get them to work longer, but the knock-on costs of that (impact on health etc.) won't manifest until later and will likely be borne by someone else rather than the current employer. This is equally true for bricklayers and coders.
For context I also did many years of construction and manual work, I'd guess my life has been about 50-50 physical and brain work (of course they're not mutually exclusive). The above is an observation from experience rather than theory.
Another way to look at this is that people are underpaid just enough to get them to work longer, but the knock-on costs of that (impact on health etc.) won't manifest until later and will likely be borne by someone else rather than the current employer. This is equally true for bricklayers and coders.
For context I also did many years of construction and manual work, I'd guess my life has been about 50-50 physical and brain work (of course they're not mutually exclusive). The above is an observation from experience rather than theory.
This seems like essentially a race to the bottom to claim that 'you can't truly be burned out unless you did X terrible job'. For example, your complaints about working conditions would likely make my parents laugh, because they would spend weeks out at sea working essentially 24/7 as fishermen in order to bring home a large enough haul to make the trip worth it. Not to mention the time spent traveling to Alaska and being away from home for months at a time.
Obviously blue collar work is going to be harder than white collar, but that doesn't change the fact that working conditions for each job can still be terrible relative to the type of work it's located in. It's the same for blue-collar work where not all blue-collar work is going to be equally difficult.
Obviously blue collar work is going to be harder than white collar, but that doesn't change the fact that working conditions for each job can still be terrible relative to the type of work it's located in. It's the same for blue-collar work where not all blue-collar work is going to be equally difficult.
That's quite the story!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertha_(tunnel_boring_machine)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertha_(tunnel_boring_machine)
That sounds like a gnarly stretch of work you did. I’ve also experienced burnout and it is nothing to scoff at—this coming from a guy who also did physically demanding work. In terms of negative affect on my life, burnout tops the list.
I’m not the OP but I read the comment as not saying burnout isn’t a thing or that it pales in comparison to blue collar struggle. It was more that the common gripes you may hear at an office—especially from folks whose work history is only office work—tends to make you reflect. At least that’s my experience.
I’m not the OP but I read the comment as not saying burnout isn’t a thing or that it pales in comparison to blue collar struggle. It was more that the common gripes you may hear at an office—especially from folks whose work history is only office work—tends to make you reflect. At least that’s my experience.
Ironically one of the most mentally cleansing things you can do is to bust your ass physically then sleep like the dead.
Might not even be a bad idea for larger companies that have the logistical range to get their staff swap collars a week a quarter.
Might not even be a bad idea for larger companies that have the logistical range to get their staff swap collars a week a quarter.
An acquaintance of mine with law degree is a business development person at DHL. At Christmas time, he helps deliver packages. I think that's really cool. Kind of like "everybody codes" (including managers) in engineering at Google. (Is that still true?)
All true but blue collar work can mess up your body - either by wear and tear, or an accident. Then not only do you have pain, you also have trouble paying the bills.
A guy recently joined my team whose father was a mechanic and mother a health aide. He said he went into software because he didn't want to hurt and be exhausted like his parents.
A guy recently joined my team whose father was a mechanic and mother a health aide. He said he went into software because he didn't want to hurt and be exhausted like his parents.
I was a carpenter for about 8 years, then decided to go to grad school (defended last week). The prospect of cutting a finger off with a table saw or worse was definitely a factor in that decision. To be fair though, sitting at a desk 8+ hours a day isn’t doing your body any favors either.
Might I ask, did you do grad school in something related to carpentry? And if not, were there recommendations involved in the application process?
Mental exhaustion is a legitimate issue. But most blue collar jobs are demonstrably worse than most office jobs.
Factory line workers and truck loaders are trying to get into software, accounting, etc., not the other way around.
Factory line workers and truck loaders are trying to get into software, accounting, etc., not the other way around.
I have a similar experience. Food Service -> Framer / Roofer -> Army Paratrooper -> Casino Dealer (You be surprised how hard that job actually is [0]) -> concurrently going to school for software -> Jr Dev -> Sr. Dev
I used to laugh when people would complain about almost anything. Due to my Army experience it makes most people's complaints non-issues to me. But I am starting to realize you have to meet people where they are and have some empathy for them. They only can see it from their perspective. Telling people to suck it up, hasn't been exactly effective for me in this industry. Different environment so different tools are effective.
[0] Not so much physically, but dealing with people for 10 hours a day and most of them are very unhappy (losing money) takes a toll. I'd rather frame houses imo.
Edit: Formatting
I used to laugh when people would complain about almost anything. Due to my Army experience it makes most people's complaints non-issues to me. But I am starting to realize you have to meet people where they are and have some empathy for them. They only can see it from their perspective. Telling people to suck it up, hasn't been exactly effective for me in this industry. Different environment so different tools are effective.
[0] Not so much physically, but dealing with people for 10 hours a day and most of them are very unhappy (losing money) takes a toll. I'd rather frame houses imo.
Edit: Formatting
Seems this is one thing that nations with compulsory enlistment really have an edge with. It helps offer perspective on top of providing useful life skills, instilling more self confidence, physical training, and so on. Big problem is that, unlike most of these other nations, we tend to actively deploy our armed forces and in ways that are of dubious value which really makes compulsory enlistment a non-starter.
Big reason I mention this is that even if the indulgence you're describing might be the most effective means of getting your tasks done, it makes one wonder about the consequences of this change in society on a macro level.
Big reason I mention this is that even if the indulgence you're describing might be the most effective means of getting your tasks done, it makes one wonder about the consequences of this change in society on a macro level.
>> compulsory enlistment
I don't think most of the today's nations with compulsory enlistment would give you an edge at anything. Just the skill of sucking up to doing fuck all for the term you are enlisted for.
I don't think most of the today's nations with compulsory enlistment would give you an edge at anything. Just the skill of sucking up to doing fuck all for the term you are enlisted for.
I prefer it framed as compulsory or highly rewarded, civil or military service. It’s a pity the US no longer has anything like the WPA [1], for example.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_Progress_Administration
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_Progress_Administration
I can see that being useful. Integrate that with a trade school and you get free workers for a few years who come out of service actually capable of supporting themselves.
Compulsory enlistment is awful for the economy because you're not only deploying "average Jr Google Dev" but also "Tenured MIT Professor" or even Stephen Hawking.
You're thinking conscription. E.g. - we go to war and need new people so we just start grabbing any able bodied man, and even woman in some countries, to train up and deploy. Compulsory enlistment is different. What generally happens is that when you reach the age of legal adulthood you are required to enlist for a certain period of time. This is generally 1-2 years. You do your training, serve your time, and are discharged.
During your enlistment you not only trained but also of course compensated and generally very well prepared to lead a productive life. I think there's a lot to admire about this. But yeah - the issue is when these ideals mix with the reality of enlistment turning into deployment in wars of dubious merit, which is why this whole idea is a nonstarter for the US.
But one example of a nation where it does work well is Switzerland. The reason I mention them in particular is because in 2013 there was a referendum aimed at abolishing this enlistment. It failed with more than 73% voting against it. [1] I think it indicates how well it can work and the value it can provide, but of course again the big difference is that Switzerland is also incredibly conservative in the deployment of their military.
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Switzerland
During your enlistment you not only trained but also of course compensated and generally very well prepared to lead a productive life. I think there's a lot to admire about this. But yeah - the issue is when these ideals mix with the reality of enlistment turning into deployment in wars of dubious merit, which is why this whole idea is a nonstarter for the US.
But one example of a nation where it does work well is Switzerland. The reason I mention them in particular is because in 2013 there was a referendum aimed at abolishing this enlistment. It failed with more than 73% voting against it. [1] I think it indicates how well it can work and the value it can provide, but of course again the big difference is that Switzerland is also incredibly conservative in the deployment of their military.
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Switzerland
At the same time, every nation with military service also has better working conditions for their workforce so...
its also pointless as the US is bordered by 2 seas and 2 allies (generally speaking). and your not ever going to see a need for them locally (unless your talking about trumps recent border deploys, which half the country is against)
Having worked both types of jobs, I don't see any dissonance here.
In software, I was frequently pressured to deliver more, or in less time, despite my own estimates. There often literally was too much to do. When I didn't meet estimates (mine or my manager's), the consequences often fell on me.
In labor, I work at a speed that's safe and sustainable, and keep going until the job is done. The head position made the estimates, but if they were low, I'm essentially rewarded for this mistake (via OT). I've never gotten in the least bit of trouble for not working fast enough, and occasionally praised for my speed.
As unpleasant as a summer in the south can be, I bet your manager never came by and said "We're in a hurry, so let's just leave half the boxes on the truck, and hope it won't turn out to be a problem later -- customers probably won't even notice". Yet that sort of thing happens all the time in software.
In software, I was frequently pressured to deliver more, or in less time, despite my own estimates. There often literally was too much to do. When I didn't meet estimates (mine or my manager's), the consequences often fell on me.
In labor, I work at a speed that's safe and sustainable, and keep going until the job is done. The head position made the estimates, but if they were low, I'm essentially rewarded for this mistake (via OT). I've never gotten in the least bit of trouble for not working fast enough, and occasionally praised for my speed.
As unpleasant as a summer in the south can be, I bet your manager never came by and said "We're in a hurry, so let's just leave half the boxes on the truck, and hope it won't turn out to be a problem later -- customers probably won't even notice". Yet that sort of thing happens all the time in software.
I think there is a different type of stress for a developer. When you work physical labor especially jobs like the ones you describe they can be exhausting but when you clock out that's it, your body and mind is then able to recharge and prepare for the next day. In addition, there are a limited number of variables you have to control for so the mental stress is reduced. This is not to reduce the stress on a job such as a gas line worker or someone for whom a mistake can mean disaster, but those risks are generally known, you dont really have to figure a lot of stuff out.
When working in a field such as software, you take the stress home with you, you are constantly thinking about the job and the fact that if you cant figure out this issue that yo have been working on for 7 days the project is potentially going to fail or they are going to fire you. Many nights you kiss your family good night and then while they are asleep you sit slumped at your desk just trying to get a few more hours in before you collapse for 4 hours of sleep and then get up to do it again. This is obviously not all the time but it is for the most part at some time in all software jobs.
In software and many white collar jobs the concept of work-life balance is really just an idea there is no clear delineation between work time and not work time.
When working in a field such as software, you take the stress home with you, you are constantly thinking about the job and the fact that if you cant figure out this issue that yo have been working on for 7 days the project is potentially going to fail or they are going to fire you. Many nights you kiss your family good night and then while they are asleep you sit slumped at your desk just trying to get a few more hours in before you collapse for 4 hours of sleep and then get up to do it again. This is obviously not all the time but it is for the most part at some time in all software jobs.
In software and many white collar jobs the concept of work-life balance is really just an idea there is no clear delineation between work time and not work time.
> Many nights you kiss your family good night and then while they are asleep you sit slumped at your desk just trying to get a few more hours in before you collapse for 4 hours of sleep and then get up to do it again. This is obviously not all the time but it is for the most part at some time in all software jobs.
I've been in software for many years, including 5+ years as hands-on developer, and I've never ever stayed up this late to do anything. I've worked in startups, including failing startups. Maybe i'm just naturally zen. My career is doing great btw.
I've been in software for many years, including 5+ years as hands-on developer, and I've never ever stayed up this late to do anything. I've worked in startups, including failing startups. Maybe i'm just naturally zen. My career is doing great btw.
Sounds like that's a benefit in your favor then, in that you can really grind it out when necessary whereas some of your coworkers haven't ever had to push themselves really hard (and thus can't).
Now, in an ideal world, you would never need heroes in an office environment, but I get that shit happens. And there's also been plenty of times in my career when busting my ass was directly tied to faster advancement (and serious monetary rewards), so I definitely don't regret any of the times I really chose to push myself hard to accomplish something.
Now, in an ideal world, you would never need heroes in an office environment, but I get that shit happens. And there's also been plenty of times in my career when busting my ass was directly tied to faster advancement (and serious monetary rewards), so I definitely don't regret any of the times I really chose to push myself hard to accomplish something.
I have to agree with others that mental and physical workloads are really different. Also, as the article mentions, you're getting graded more on 'political' ideas and beliefs instead of more objective concrete results. If you unload the truck quickly, that is measurable. Performance results are different to each observer when it comes to 'mental' workloads like writing code and delivering features. I miss that sense of objectivity from blue-collar jobs.
Can only agree. Was working 70h a week on average I think. I had multiple several weeks at 90h in succession. Became central to the team because I was fixing everything around me. Yet they would see me as extremely disorganized and unfocused (which was just the result of the immense load that was put on me). They set up control procedures on me (which I think were illegal) with absolutely no respect for my work-hours for the sake of treating everyone on the team according to the same standard. People who earned almost twice as much and worked twice as less and who were supposed to be my peers (lean management) also offloaded part of their work onto me and and bragued about how it wasn't about the number of hours you'd pour in but to get the job done.
I left. 2 months after a colleague told me that "velocity" was the new word the managers had in their mouth. 6 month later I got a call from another colleague telling me he was about to leave as well and now wanted to punch another guy. What's funny is that I want to punch them both because they used me as a terrain for a proxy war (I don't really want to punch them, but when I heard those words it made my day and I'm still giggling as I'm writing this). I was also told that the persons who replaced us took 6 months to build something that would have taken us 2 weeks. They recently started an overtime hours program with the company's employees.
I left. I left.
Edit: I'm somehow considering a blue colar job.
I left. 2 months after a colleague told me that "velocity" was the new word the managers had in their mouth. 6 month later I got a call from another colleague telling me he was about to leave as well and now wanted to punch another guy. What's funny is that I want to punch them both because they used me as a terrain for a proxy war (I don't really want to punch them, but when I heard those words it made my day and I'm still giggling as I'm writing this). I was also told that the persons who replaced us took 6 months to build something that would have taken us 2 weeks. They recently started an overtime hours program with the company's employees.
I left. I left.
Edit: I'm somehow considering a blue colar job.
>Edit: I'm somehow considering a blue colar job.
I somehow feel like I should become a farmer so I can have access to higher quality food...
I somehow feel like I should become a farmer so I can have access to higher quality food...
For me personally blue collar work, loading stuff, offloading stuff, hacking road covered with ice with bare hands for days was a lot easier than programming, project management and leading a team. So it's not so black and white for everyone.
It sounds like we have similar trajectories. I went from construction laborerer in summers of HS and for 2 years out, into commercial real estate maintanence FT during undergrad and grad, then to tech writing which transitioned to UX design, then into development in my late 20s and through the levels there, up to right now as lead/architect.
You’re right—our experiences are pretty unique especially in places like the Bay Area. In fact, you are the first person I’ve ever met with a similar background. I was stoked to read your comment—“I’m not the only one.”
And like you noted, no matter how brutal work can get now, it takes just a bit of reflection to recenter myself. This is almost like a dream. I’ve been very fortunate to wind up where I did. Most folks where I’m from are still busting their asses working those real hard jobs.
You’re right—our experiences are pretty unique especially in places like the Bay Area. In fact, you are the first person I’ve ever met with a similar background. I was stoked to read your comment—“I’m not the only one.”
And like you noted, no matter how brutal work can get now, it takes just a bit of reflection to recenter myself. This is almost like a dream. I’ve been very fortunate to wind up where I did. Most folks where I’m from are still busting their asses working those real hard jobs.
I think having any sort of past that gives you perspective on your work is valuable. I spent 5 months working in a kitchen in my teens and that lit a fire under my ass to get better grades and get into University. I then spent 8 months co-op at a government organization and that lit another fire under me that a cozy government desk job would turn my brain into mush, so I needed to strive for more than something cozy.
6 years into my programming career and I still think regularly about those jobs any time I feel annoyed by the assorted issues/people I have to deal with. It gives me perspective that I'm really not working... I'm being given money to have fun learning and doing cool stuff.
6 years into my programming career and I still think regularly about those jobs any time I feel annoyed by the assorted issues/people I have to deal with. It gives me perspective that I'm really not working... I'm being given money to have fun learning and doing cool stuff.
The strangest thing is, the pay is inversely proportional to how hard the job is. If you spend all your working day picking up stuff until your back breaks, you can expect a minimum wage in some parts of the world. If you spend your day sitting in front of a computer tapping at a keyboard, you can expect - well, a lot of money, comparatively. Even more if you spend your day talking on the phone and meeting people.
It's topsy-turvy and the people at the high end of the wage scale have very well honed excuses: "but, I have specialised knowledge that I worked very hard to acquire" etc.
Well, I got specialised knowledge that it took me a long time and effort to acquire. It's still unfair that the people who make the stuff I eat, the stuff I wear, the stuff I use to acquire that specialised knowledge are paid a pittance and I can live comofortably off their backs, really.
The world is such an unfair place and the people who benefit from that the most aren't even aware of it.
It's topsy-turvy and the people at the high end of the wage scale have very well honed excuses: "but, I have specialised knowledge that I worked very hard to acquire" etc.
Well, I got specialised knowledge that it took me a long time and effort to acquire. It's still unfair that the people who make the stuff I eat, the stuff I wear, the stuff I use to acquire that specialised knowledge are paid a pittance and I can live comofortably off their backs, really.
The world is such an unfair place and the people who benefit from that the most aren't even aware of it.
It's not strange at all. What does almost every human being on earth have in common with Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos? a back! If all you're willing to do is break your back then good luck standing out from the masses. You are competing with 7 billion other humans after all. Meanwhile software? I doubt there are more than 10 million software developers in the entire world.
So tell us more of your story, your perspective. I worry our world is going to be full of people who worked hard in often but not always blue collar jobs and then suddenly there wasn't enough work and people start losing their jobs and there's not much better to replace it (whether it's automation or amazon wiping our your local business, it's the same end result).
I'd expect people who that happens to to be really angry, looking for someone or something to take them out of it.
I'd expect people who that happens to to be really angry, looking for someone or something to take them out of it.
There's a big difference between physical work and knowledge work. Entirely different types of pain.
I've worked 12 hours a day, 7 days a week in construction, it's only physically hard, it's only physical pain. Solving problems and fighting through headaches, loading context into your head, there's real pain, but it's a mental pain instead.
I've worked 12 hours a day, 7 days a week in construction, it's only physically hard, it's only physical pain. Solving problems and fighting through headaches, loading context into your head, there's real pain, but it's a mental pain instead.
It's easy to move a box 1,000 times with little change in quality. It's not easy to design great software when tired or overworked.
It's _not_ easy to move a box 1000 times with little change in quality.
Before software, I did a bunch of construction. Some of those tasks were highly repetitive. ("Remove this commercial firewall that's 45 feet tall and 200 feet long". "Fill these 500 holes with metal plugs, weld them in, then grind them smooth", "remove 500sq feet of carpet on concrete, and get the glue up too")
If I paced myself and went carefully, my quality stayed high. If I rushed, quality went down. If I worked too long, quality went down.
One can move boxes, but... one can also:
(edit: formatting) "blue collar" jobs have quite a lot of room for optimization and process management, just as software jobs do.
(though, yes, the _scale_ of moving boxes vs. working on a system that will be used by thousands/millions is very different.)
Before software, I did a bunch of construction. Some of those tasks were highly repetitive. ("Remove this commercial firewall that's 45 feet tall and 200 feet long". "Fill these 500 holes with metal plugs, weld them in, then grind them smooth", "remove 500sq feet of carpet on concrete, and get the glue up too")
If I paced myself and went carefully, my quality stayed high. If I rushed, quality went down. If I worked too long, quality went down.
One can move boxes, but... one can also:
- damage the box by careless handling
- loose the order (if the order is important, which it usually is)
- hurt oneself in the process
- hurt someone else in the process. (If its 1000 boxes, you're prob using a forklift or at _least_ a pallet jack)
(edit: formatting) "blue collar" jobs have quite a lot of room for optimization and process management, just as software jobs do.
(though, yes, the _scale_ of moving boxes vs. working on a system that will be used by thousands/millions is very different.)
You’ve obviously never been in the position to do the former as a requirement for paying bills... sure, lifting the boxes (or nailing the shingles, or digging the trench) is easy, it’s getting up and continuing to do it day-in and day-out that takes persistence, a strong constitution, and grit that isn’t present in many/most of the software devs that you’re likely to encounter In the workplace.
I grew up on a farm. Almost anyone can adapt to hard work if it's a necessity.
That bit about the assumption of positional authority really rings true.
I've worked with a number of people who used to be in blue collar jobs (former military non-commissioned officers, former trades men, etc). They often have a different kind of work ethic than people without that background and that often adds a lot. You'll rarely see analysis paralysis with them, or non-KISS solutions.
However, I once worked in an organization where all the management came from that background, and really still had one foot (at least) in that mindset. They did not understand what the engineers and developers did, so often made decisions based on fear of the unknown, or out of a sense that their authority was being questioned. Not a good scene.
I've worked with a number of people who used to be in blue collar jobs (former military non-commissioned officers, former trades men, etc). They often have a different kind of work ethic than people without that background and that often adds a lot. You'll rarely see analysis paralysis with them, or non-KISS solutions.
However, I once worked in an organization where all the management came from that background, and really still had one foot (at least) in that mindset. They did not understand what the engineers and developers did, so often made decisions based on fear of the unknown, or out of a sense that their authority was being questioned. Not a good scene.
1 to 1 comparison.
Do you want your leadership figure at 30 to be someone who spent the last 11 years learning tech/design? Or someone who is new to the tech, but lived a 'tough' life for the last 14 years?
I don't see any advantages to the later, except they are lower cost.
Do you want your leadership figure at 30 to be someone who spent the last 11 years learning tech/design? Or someone who is new to the tech, but lived a 'tough' life for the last 14 years?
I don't see any advantages to the later, except they are lower cost.
Obviously both kinds of experience can bring different perspectives. There's not just one way to do things. You want someone who has faced some challenges, had some failures, had to recover, things sometimes worked out. That works for both sources of experience.
Part of the reason white-collar salaries are so high (along with demand) is that a lot of jobs actually aren't that interesting to do.
The stereotypical office job is "get on a train for 1-2 hours a day, then sit in front of a screen for 8 hours a day in a boring office with fluorescent lighting, five times a week, forever".
Not everyone works at a company that actually matters so they're ultimately just pushing bits around.
There are definitely other monotonous jobs (checkout staff is the obvious canonical example), but then there's interesting stuff like working for emergency services, mechanic, personal trainer, etc, all YMMV of course.
The stereotypical office job is "get on a train for 1-2 hours a day, then sit in front of a screen for 8 hours a day in a boring office with fluorescent lighting, five times a week, forever".
Not everyone works at a company that actually matters so they're ultimately just pushing bits around.
There are definitely other monotonous jobs (checkout staff is the obvious canonical example), but then there's interesting stuff like working for emergency services, mechanic, personal trainer, etc, all YMMV of course.
If I had to choose careers again I would probably think more about finding something that’s more active and outside. My current job keeps me permanently at my desk or meeting rooms. No physical activity, no outside,no travel. This together with commuting being in a cube without daylight is really impacting my mental and physical wellbeing.
I’m volunteering with my local EMS service am loving it. It’s just about the opposite work environment as coding.
I’m outside, moving around, helping people and working hand-on in a small & highly focused team. Knowing the basics of emergency medical care is a great life skill too.
Interestingly the skill of “debugging” translates pretty well and is quite useful.
I’m outside, moving around, helping people and working hand-on in a small & highly focused team. Knowing the basics of emergency medical care is a great life skill too.
Interestingly the skill of “debugging” translates pretty well and is quite useful.
Find remote work. I've been working remotely for over a decade, because I felt an office confining and I missed being able to go outside.
With no commute, I also use that extra time to spend with my family.
I have my own office and many times work outside in the summer. I've even traveled to other states/countries and worked from there. You just need a good Internet connection.
It does take a lot of discipline. I basically have no manager now after proving that I can get my work done without being watched.
I've seen lots of remote developers come and go because they couldn't handle working remotely without someone sitting over their shoulder/telling them what to do.
With no commute, I also use that extra time to spend with my family.
I have my own office and many times work outside in the summer. I've even traveled to other states/countries and worked from there. You just need a good Internet connection.
It does take a lot of discipline. I basically have no manager now after proving that I can get my work done without being watched.
I've seen lots of remote developers come and go because they couldn't handle working remotely without someone sitting over their shoulder/telling them what to do.
> I also use that extra time to spend with my family
Remote can be nice if you already have a family. Otherwise one could end up simply trading office desk and meeting rooms for their own desk and own room, still staying inside.
Remote can be nice if you already have a family. Otherwise one could end up simply trading office desk and meeting rooms for their own desk and own room, still staying inside.
I think it is more that remote is nice when work is a part of your life and not the center of your life. Swap family with other major life pursuits. Family is often a forcing function for people to learn to balance work and the rest of their life. Remote affords more flexibility, but that means it requires more experience and discipline to balance your life.
If you already have the skill, remote gives you more flexibility to balance. But if you're not intentional about it being remote gives you more rope to hang yourself with, so to speak.
If you already have the skill, remote gives you more flexibility to balance. But if you're not intentional about it being remote gives you more rope to hang yourself with, so to speak.
How do you turn work off? I have worked remotely the last several months and I feel like I am always at work to the detriment of my family life. I find myself sitting at my desk working when if I was in an office job I would be spending time with my kids or doing things for myself.
What do you find difficult? I'm working remotely and when 6pm comes I get up and close my email client. I might use the same computer later in the evening for whatever non work related activity I want.
But I wouldn't stay at the office after hours, and I don't find it more difficult when the office is in my house.
But I wouldn't stay at the office after hours, and I don't find it more difficult when the office is in my house.
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I feel like that sometimes too. I find going for a run at lunch helps a lot.
It also helps my reality in check - when the weather is nasty, I get to go back inside after my run is done. That wouldn't be the case if I had to work outdoors...
It also helps my reality in check - when the weather is nasty, I get to go back inside after my run is done. That wouldn't be the case if I had to work outdoors...
I’m in the Army Reserve for this reason. It’s a great hobby for a programmer to have.
You're not the only software engineer I know who's in the Reserves. The way my colleague talks about it, it feels like more duty than hobby. What tips it toward hobby for you? Asking as someone who has been curious about joining in a reserve force or volunteer SAR organization.
I'm not sure if you mean a duty in a negative sense? Or in an obligation sense? I'm not obligated to do it and I'm sure they'd get by fine without me.
It's a hobby because it's challenging, social, physical, rewarding and just fun.
Go and see your local Reserve unit now if you are even remotely curious!
It's a hobby because it's challenging, social, physical, rewarding and just fun.
Go and see your local Reserve unit now if you are even remotely curious!
I expect white collar pay to drop relative to blue collar pay in the future, it’s probably even happening now. Everyone knows the toll physical labor takes on your body, plus much of white collar work isn’t that hard so there’s a lot of supply of labor that are able to do it.
It's already happening in some places. E.g. here in eastern europe.
After USSR fell, everybody wanted to go to university. Because during soviet times you'd get assignment to a cushy job for life. Yet people missed that it's over and just having a degree from random university won't land you a job.
Thus we have a shit ton of not-so-talented poorly motivated people with a degree. And a lack of tradesmen. End result is that a professional (show up on time, not drunk, do job up to specs) tradesman easily makes 2x or 3x salary of average citizen with university degree. Let alone it's hard to land a job in one's specialty because the market is overcrowded.
Thankfully the trend is slowly reversing. Since the '08 crash tradeschools enroll more and more people. There's still a massive gap to be filled.
After USSR fell, everybody wanted to go to university. Because during soviet times you'd get assignment to a cushy job for life. Yet people missed that it's over and just having a degree from random university won't land you a job.
Thus we have a shit ton of not-so-talented poorly motivated people with a degree. And a lack of tradesmen. End result is that a professional (show up on time, not drunk, do job up to specs) tradesman easily makes 2x or 3x salary of average citizen with university degree. Let alone it's hard to land a job in one's specialty because the market is overcrowded.
Thankfully the trend is slowly reversing. Since the '08 crash tradeschools enroll more and more people. There's still a massive gap to be filled.
Yep I see the same thing in Poland. The thing is, to do most modern white collar office jobs well, you need to be somewhat intelligent, while the people who got their worthless degrees from degree mills are most often just average. They cannot learn quickly, they cannot communicate efficiently, they don't have an "active mind" that is always looking for a better solution. They are ok paper pushers, but the mindless office jobs are getting automated, and what is left is the jobs which require intelligence.
Yep. I think around here you could make pretty good money as a competent welder. No big surprise, getting competent takes time and the working conditions aren't particularly luxurious. So there's a shortage of competent people, and the teens who are deciding where to go next in life don't seem interested in this kind of work.
> Part of the reason white-collar salaries are so high (along with demand) is that a lot of jobs actually aren't that interesting to do.
I'd buy that if all these blue collar jobs seemed more interesting. Holy shit they tend to sound boring. Even when there's something interesting involved in the job (for example, as a machinist, you get to play with fancy expensive CNC machines!), it's often turned into monotonous and repetitive grind.
I'd buy that if all these blue collar jobs seemed more interesting. Holy shit they tend to sound boring. Even when there's something interesting involved in the job (for example, as a machinist, you get to play with fancy expensive CNC machines!), it's often turned into monotonous and repetitive grind.
Because they _are_ boring. I have no idea what to think of the GP other than to assume they've never actually worked a blue collar job. I have. They suck. They're boring. They are the definition of boring work.
Here's a list of manual labor jobs that I worked during my teenage years. This list will not include any job that I worked in my 20s. If I added all of the manual labor jobs that I had in my 20s I'd be here for the next hour.
* Picking corn/green & soy beans/tomatoes/peppers/berries by hand (this is summer and fall only, mind you, so not only is boring it is also hot -- even when you start at 5:45AM, you get very little reprieve working the fields because you're there until 11AM or noon).
* Working a farm stand, selling aforementioned corn/green & soy beans/tomatoes/peppers/fruit (moving up in the world!).
* Flipping burgers / running a fry station / running a fast food cash register / washing dishes in a fast food joint.
* Delivering pizzas.
* Delivering printed materials (hard to explain, friends dad had a printing business, I ran deliveries for them for a while -- loading, unloading, driving. Driving for a living is easily the most boring thing that can ever happen to you, IMHO).
* All manner of construction -- but mostly roofing and framing.
* Working the end of a glass plant factory line, inspecting glass television screens for defects. OT was in abundance here and I would often work 16 hour shifts doing this.
* Waterproofing basements / dealing with broken sump pumps / digging out deteriorating septic tanks.
* Throwing boxes at a FedEx.
This list represents ages 13 (maybe 14?) - 19 for me. 3 of these jobs were things that I did while attending University (though I left and didn't return until later in life). It doesn't get much better until 22. At 22 there's some manual labor that is disguised as technical work (military). A lot of this is or was seasonal work. That was the nature of manual labor, when and where I grew up. I'm sure that hasn't changed too much.
All of these are boring jobs. They are mind-numbing in ways that are genuinely hard to express. If salaries are dictated by who is doing the most uninteresting work then we have things _completely_ backwards, IMO.
Here's a list of manual labor jobs that I worked during my teenage years. This list will not include any job that I worked in my 20s. If I added all of the manual labor jobs that I had in my 20s I'd be here for the next hour.
* Picking corn/green & soy beans/tomatoes/peppers/berries by hand (this is summer and fall only, mind you, so not only is boring it is also hot -- even when you start at 5:45AM, you get very little reprieve working the fields because you're there until 11AM or noon).
* Working a farm stand, selling aforementioned corn/green & soy beans/tomatoes/peppers/fruit (moving up in the world!).
* Flipping burgers / running a fry station / running a fast food cash register / washing dishes in a fast food joint.
* Delivering pizzas.
* Delivering printed materials (hard to explain, friends dad had a printing business, I ran deliveries for them for a while -- loading, unloading, driving. Driving for a living is easily the most boring thing that can ever happen to you, IMHO).
* All manner of construction -- but mostly roofing and framing.
* Working the end of a glass plant factory line, inspecting glass television screens for defects. OT was in abundance here and I would often work 16 hour shifts doing this.
* Waterproofing basements / dealing with broken sump pumps / digging out deteriorating septic tanks.
* Throwing boxes at a FedEx.
This list represents ages 13 (maybe 14?) - 19 for me. 3 of these jobs were things that I did while attending University (though I left and didn't return until later in life). It doesn't get much better until 22. At 22 there's some manual labor that is disguised as technical work (military). A lot of this is or was seasonal work. That was the nature of manual labor, when and where I grew up. I'm sure that hasn't changed too much.
All of these are boring jobs. They are mind-numbing in ways that are genuinely hard to express. If salaries are dictated by who is doing the most uninteresting work then we have things _completely_ backwards, IMO.
Having looked it up I think my definition of 'blue collar' is a bit off. I'm British, so there is that, the term isn't in common use over here.
I figured it just included everything that wasn't in an office.
A decent amount of the stuff in your list is unskilled labour that I've done in the past and also hated. I mean, the fact you've switched between them all pretty much illustrates it - they're not careers, they're stuff you do for a bit of money to keep going until the next gig.
What do you guys call a job that isn't the sort of thing that anyone physically able can do (well) with a day's instruction, but isn't office based either?
Like, I can't imagine a car salesman is considered white collar? (Not that that's an example of my dream job...)
I figured it just included everything that wasn't in an office.
A decent amount of the stuff in your list is unskilled labour that I've done in the past and also hated. I mean, the fact you've switched between them all pretty much illustrates it - they're not careers, they're stuff you do for a bit of money to keep going until the next gig.
What do you guys call a job that isn't the sort of thing that anyone physically able can do (well) with a day's instruction, but isn't office based either?
Like, I can't imagine a car salesman is considered white collar? (Not that that's an example of my dream job...)
Blue collar job pretty much just means manual labour, although this definition gets stretched a little when you consider factory work where a machine performs the job and the worker pretty much just operates & oversees the machine. There are plenty of skilled blue collar jobs that you won't do with a day's worth of instruction.
Salesmen are as white collar as it gets.
Salesmen are as white collar as it gets.
I think this is true of just about any job. I was a carpenter for 8 years. Nailing up wall after wall gets pretty boring. Then I went to grad school. I swear I spent at least 25 % of my time making figures “publication quality”: adjust the axis limits, squeeze the axes 0.1mm in, fart with linestyles so it’s still intellligible in grayscale [1], whatever. I’ll taking framing any day over that nonsense.
[1] Many journals still have a print version and charge for color figures.
[1] Many journals still have a print version and charge for color figures.
Agree; I can't think of many things more monotonous than laying bricks, nailing off roofing shingle, installing 100s of outlets, or concrete flatwork.
Being an EMT seems like it would be interesting in a bad way, not a good way. I don’t really want to see people dying in a gory way every day.
Why do you think that being a mechanic or personal trainer is more “interesting” than being a software developer? I don’t think it’s true in the general case at all that blue collar work is on average more interesting than an office job.
Why do you think that being a mechanic or personal trainer is more “interesting” than being a software developer? I don’t think it’s true in the general case at all that blue collar work is on average more interesting than an office job.
A close friend is an EMT. According to him, 95% of the job is taking care of intoxicated people.
> he wanted to be “someone my kids looked up to ..”
> I wanted to provide a bright future for my kids
Both examples in this article had to do with being a parent. I wonder if this innate feeling was the true catalyst behind their move from blue to white collar jobs. The stress, or drive, to provide for their families and be a good role model. Good for them, their display of strength and pride will influence their children. I bet those kids will grow up to be strong-minded, hard-working adults.
> I wanted to provide a bright future for my kids
Both examples in this article had to do with being a parent. I wonder if this innate feeling was the true catalyst behind their move from blue to white collar jobs. The stress, or drive, to provide for their families and be a good role model. Good for them, their display of strength and pride will influence their children. I bet those kids will grow up to be strong-minded, hard-working adults.
My husband was a machinist for about 6 years then went back to school to become a mechanical engineer. As you can imagine he is an extremely good mechanical engineer.
Nobody doubted his intelligence when he was a machinist because he was obviously smart. People in our generation experimented more with our life path more than kids these days. My husband was not unusual. He was a Berkeley dropout and his machinist best friend was a law school dropout. It makes me sad sometimes that kids these days don't experiment more. It is freeing to realize that you can make your way in life no matter what.
When my husband was a machinist he worked with a mechanical engineer on a project and realized he understood how to design better than the engineer. At the time I was still in school so we decided I would finish school first and then he would go back to school.
Nobody doubted his intelligence when he was a machinist because he was obviously smart. People in our generation experimented more with our life path more than kids these days. My husband was not unusual. He was a Berkeley dropout and his machinist best friend was a law school dropout. It makes me sad sometimes that kids these days don't experiment more. It is freeing to realize that you can make your way in life no matter what.
When my husband was a machinist he worked with a mechanical engineer on a project and realized he understood how to design better than the engineer. At the time I was still in school so we decided I would finish school first and then he would go back to school.
> It makes me sad sometimes that kids these days don't experiment more. It is freeing to realize that you can make your way in life no matter what.
Kids don't experiment more because a generation or two ago, all one needed was a high school diploma to be employable; now one needs a college degree. Saddled with student loan payments, who can be free to experiment? And wages haven't kept up with cost of living increases, either. So I would have been able to support myself as a server in a restaurant back then, but now I'd probably have to juggle two jobs to make ends meet.
Kids don't experiment more because a generation or two ago, all one needed was a high school diploma to be employable; now one needs a college degree. Saddled with student loan payments, who can be free to experiment? And wages haven't kept up with cost of living increases, either. So I would have been able to support myself as a server in a restaurant back then, but now I'd probably have to juggle two jobs to make ends meet.
Wow - so many negative reviews! This must be the most controversial thing I have posted!
In general you are right that blue collar wages have not kept pace with the cost of living. This is particularly true in the SF bay area. I have often thought that the poor livability in the bay area is not sustainable. I used to live in a neighborhood with only a few engineers. Now everyone seems to be an engineer. Having said that - there are far more livable places to live!
As for college education - I do support free college education but with caveats. I am shocked by the number of people who think college needs to be expensive. For instance, you can get a degree from Berkeley by going two years to a community college and the final two years at Berkeley even today. When you don't have much money, that is a great option.
I am also here to tell you that you can have a great career with a degree from a state college. My husband and I worked our way through school and the state colleges are very flexible with working students where universities are not. With my degree I was at some of the greatest companies in the world including Apple, IBM, Xerox in their heyday. I also worked at 4 successful startups.
Even in your generation this is possible. My son got a liberal arts degree in 2008 which was the worst possible year to get a liberal arts degree. He discovered that that the curriculum from Stanford and ITT India were on line. So he studied on his own to get a college-equivalent education and worked in tech for a couple of years. Then he decided he wanted a computer science masters degree. He took the prerequisites from community colleges and applied and was accepted to graduate school. His expenses ended up being small enough that he paid half through his savings and the other half he was able to pay back within a year of graduation.
I can understand that this route is not possible in all fields such as medicine. But an interesting life is still possible.
In general you are right that blue collar wages have not kept pace with the cost of living. This is particularly true in the SF bay area. I have often thought that the poor livability in the bay area is not sustainable. I used to live in a neighborhood with only a few engineers. Now everyone seems to be an engineer. Having said that - there are far more livable places to live!
As for college education - I do support free college education but with caveats. I am shocked by the number of people who think college needs to be expensive. For instance, you can get a degree from Berkeley by going two years to a community college and the final two years at Berkeley even today. When you don't have much money, that is a great option.
I am also here to tell you that you can have a great career with a degree from a state college. My husband and I worked our way through school and the state colleges are very flexible with working students where universities are not. With my degree I was at some of the greatest companies in the world including Apple, IBM, Xerox in their heyday. I also worked at 4 successful startups.
Even in your generation this is possible. My son got a liberal arts degree in 2008 which was the worst possible year to get a liberal arts degree. He discovered that that the curriculum from Stanford and ITT India were on line. So he studied on his own to get a college-equivalent education and worked in tech for a couple of years. Then he decided he wanted a computer science masters degree. He took the prerequisites from community colleges and applied and was accepted to graduate school. His expenses ended up being small enough that he paid half through his savings and the other half he was able to pay back within a year of graduation.
I can understand that this route is not possible in all fields such as medicine. But an interesting life is still possible.
Not really sure that you're proving "kids these days" are not as creative or exploratory than you and your husband.
This sounds more like the usual practice of categorizing people and putting them in boxes they can't escape out of. If he really has better design skills than the engineer then why did he have to go back to school? Why couldn't he just get a job as a mechanical engineer right away?
I agree with you. I wasn't going to say this because it seemed too much outside the original discussion.
School seems to have 3 roles: to gain skills, to certify skills, and to join a professional network.
In today's world more and more skills can be gained without school. We can join professional networks outside of college. I am starting to see we can certify outside of college. Therefore do we need college at all?
School seems to have 3 roles: to gain skills, to certify skills, and to join a professional network.
In today's world more and more skills can be gained without school. We can join professional networks outside of college. I am starting to see we can certify outside of college. Therefore do we need college at all?
Worked as a printer at a newspaper for almost 15 years. For the last 10 years been working as a software engineer (mostly web, some mobile).
One of the biggest adjustments was trying to figure out how to not feel guilty when not "working". Even just taking a break, which I now know is important (at least for me) for solving knotty issues.
It does give one a perspective that those who've only done WC work often don't have. I'm not one to diminish other's hard work however for me personally even really long days have not compared to my days working as a press operator.
One of the biggest adjustments was trying to figure out how to not feel guilty when not "working". Even just taking a break, which I now know is important (at least for me) for solving knotty issues.
It does give one a perspective that those who've only done WC work often don't have. I'm not one to diminish other's hard work however for me personally even really long days have not compared to my days working as a press operator.
So glad someone addressed this issue directly in an article, as it needs to be explicit:
"“Blue-collar roles are usually in very authoritative structures. When men move from blue-collar to white-collar roles, they tend to assume that with their new role comes a lot of positional power. But in large organizations, that’s not always true,” she tells MEL. “Men in these situations need to learn to lead with influence, not power. They need to be more collaborative, and they need to understand that to get what they need they might have to leverage other departments or leaders.”"
What is also notable is that the culture companies so desperately contort themselves to create is a naturally occurring phenomenon in blue collar environments. Tech is basically blue collar work for white collar money.
"“The one shift I’ve noticed is most difficult [when men] go from blue-collar work like police officer or firefighter: there is a lot of time spent with colleagues in a ‘brotherly’ way,” she tells MEL. “Eating together, spending long hours together and supporting one another in life and death or dangerous situations. This isn’t the same schedule or interpersonal interaction in the white-collar environment and [it] can be difficult to transition to.”"
White collar work is mainly political, and there is very little actual physical competence involved. The skills are social, and not really skills anyone (men or women) respects or admires. Perhaps that's why they are so well paid. From the outside, the emphasis on flexibility and collaboration, can be understood as being able suspend rules and principles for opportunity.
From the inside, you need a kind of self-superiorization that abstracts you from the work, people, and relationships. This is why an elite education is so valued, because no matter what happens "you still went to Harvard/have a PhD etc." and this is what facilitates your ability to be "dynamic," or deal with outwardly contemptible behaviour because it's not, "you," who is engaged in it, it's something a person of your position "does."
When competent people encounter uncertainty, we fall back on protecting the integrity of that competence, because it defines our self image of who we "are." But risking group survival (that is based on the external perceptions of stakeholders) to maintain the integrity of our competence based self image will get you isolated pretty quick. This is the essence of that blue collar alienation feeling technical people get.
This flexible superiorization can be affected in a number of ways without an elite education, but almost all of them are anathema to a traditional masculine identity, which is based on the very competence, principle, and structure that is the barrier to them in dynamic white collar environments. The thing about an education is it's something nobody can "take away," from you, and this is the key to being able to superiorize yourself to the work. Whereas "blue collar" things like competence and masculinity can be lost, and so the need to protect or maintain them becomes a kind of weakness or vulnerability in the political dynamics of white collar work.
If white collar jobs were just a matter of actualizing the most noble aspects of being good people, and the attributes that make us likeable, they wouldn't be work. White collar work itself is the ability to self superiorize, sustain the necessary cognitive dissonance to maintain and affect strategic perceptions, and to act on the instincts and techniques for identifying and aligning correctly to power.
Some people are naturals at it, and while they usually aren't particularly admirable or likeable, the compensation, status and power that comes with achieving it place those virtues as second prize. Until very recently, having the intellectual ability to criticize these dynamics was exclusive to people who were educated to work in them, and so there wasn't a reason to reflect on them critically. The internet is changing this as well.
Such an important article for people to read.
"“Blue-collar roles are usually in very authoritative structures. When men move from blue-collar to white-collar roles, they tend to assume that with their new role comes a lot of positional power. But in large organizations, that’s not always true,” she tells MEL. “Men in these situations need to learn to lead with influence, not power. They need to be more collaborative, and they need to understand that to get what they need they might have to leverage other departments or leaders.”"
What is also notable is that the culture companies so desperately contort themselves to create is a naturally occurring phenomenon in blue collar environments. Tech is basically blue collar work for white collar money.
"“The one shift I’ve noticed is most difficult [when men] go from blue-collar work like police officer or firefighter: there is a lot of time spent with colleagues in a ‘brotherly’ way,” she tells MEL. “Eating together, spending long hours together and supporting one another in life and death or dangerous situations. This isn’t the same schedule or interpersonal interaction in the white-collar environment and [it] can be difficult to transition to.”"
White collar work is mainly political, and there is very little actual physical competence involved. The skills are social, and not really skills anyone (men or women) respects or admires. Perhaps that's why they are so well paid. From the outside, the emphasis on flexibility and collaboration, can be understood as being able suspend rules and principles for opportunity.
From the inside, you need a kind of self-superiorization that abstracts you from the work, people, and relationships. This is why an elite education is so valued, because no matter what happens "you still went to Harvard/have a PhD etc." and this is what facilitates your ability to be "dynamic," or deal with outwardly contemptible behaviour because it's not, "you," who is engaged in it, it's something a person of your position "does."
When competent people encounter uncertainty, we fall back on protecting the integrity of that competence, because it defines our self image of who we "are." But risking group survival (that is based on the external perceptions of stakeholders) to maintain the integrity of our competence based self image will get you isolated pretty quick. This is the essence of that blue collar alienation feeling technical people get.
This flexible superiorization can be affected in a number of ways without an elite education, but almost all of them are anathema to a traditional masculine identity, which is based on the very competence, principle, and structure that is the barrier to them in dynamic white collar environments. The thing about an education is it's something nobody can "take away," from you, and this is the key to being able to superiorize yourself to the work. Whereas "blue collar" things like competence and masculinity can be lost, and so the need to protect or maintain them becomes a kind of weakness or vulnerability in the political dynamics of white collar work.
If white collar jobs were just a matter of actualizing the most noble aspects of being good people, and the attributes that make us likeable, they wouldn't be work. White collar work itself is the ability to self superiorize, sustain the necessary cognitive dissonance to maintain and affect strategic perceptions, and to act on the instincts and techniques for identifying and aligning correctly to power.
Some people are naturals at it, and while they usually aren't particularly admirable or likeable, the compensation, status and power that comes with achieving it place those virtues as second prize. Until very recently, having the intellectual ability to criticize these dynamics was exclusive to people who were educated to work in them, and so there wasn't a reason to reflect on them critically. The internet is changing this as well.
Such an important article for people to read.
I have an MBA from an elite school and I don’t disagree with you at all about the performative nature of authoritative self-confidence. For better or worse, confidence is a strong virtue signal in white collar work and more confident workers are seen as more competent. It’s no accident that most business schools hit presentation and interpersonal skills harder than any other subject — they’re the most correlated with success.
I wonder if this is a reason why women and minorities are severely underrepresented in the executive ranks — managerial positions are often the first time in our lives we are in a position within a social structure where this kind of outsized ego is permitted; much less a good thing. There’s a lot of societal conditioning that tells us to keep our ego in check or face negative consequences, and overcoming that takes time, resilience and support. I expect some of this filters through to all blue-collar workers of all intersections who are expected to be a replaceable cog in the machine, so there’s definitely a transition for everyone.
Even then though, it’s a tricky line to walk. Men who are read as white with a huge superiority complex are “strong leaders” — even if they’re not well liked. Women with a similar ego are “arrogant bitches” who are constantly under the microscope by people looking to “put them in their place”. Black men in particular have it hard; too much confidence can be interpreted as aggression and feed into the worst stereotypes (“angry black man” is a dangerous label that gets people shot). Asian people have their own labels as well depending on where their heritage is.
(I’m not blaming any one group for any of this — it’s a consequence of the time and place we live in. It’s just up to us to figure out if and how we want to change it.)
I wonder if this is a reason why women and minorities are severely underrepresented in the executive ranks — managerial positions are often the first time in our lives we are in a position within a social structure where this kind of outsized ego is permitted; much less a good thing. There’s a lot of societal conditioning that tells us to keep our ego in check or face negative consequences, and overcoming that takes time, resilience and support. I expect some of this filters through to all blue-collar workers of all intersections who are expected to be a replaceable cog in the machine, so there’s definitely a transition for everyone.
Even then though, it’s a tricky line to walk. Men who are read as white with a huge superiority complex are “strong leaders” — even if they’re not well liked. Women with a similar ego are “arrogant bitches” who are constantly under the microscope by people looking to “put them in their place”. Black men in particular have it hard; too much confidence can be interpreted as aggression and feed into the worst stereotypes (“angry black man” is a dangerous label that gets people shot). Asian people have their own labels as well depending on where their heritage is.
(I’m not blaming any one group for any of this — it’s a consequence of the time and place we live in. It’s just up to us to figure out if and how we want to change it.)
Your thoughts about minorities and women in positions of power are about 2 decades out of date.
I've worked at many companies, big and small, in many states, and I never saw anything you described.
What I do see is that when a woman is in power, other women try to take that woman down a peg. Men are respectful and now have to walk on eggshells because if you even breathe the wrong way, it can be construed as some form of harassment.
Disagreeing (even if you have facts to back your argument) is called 'mansplaining'.
I've worked at many companies, big and small, in many states, and I never saw anything you described.
What I do see is that when a woman is in power, other women try to take that woman down a peg. Men are respectful and now have to walk on eggshells because if you even breathe the wrong way, it can be construed as some form of harassment.
Disagreeing (even if you have facts to back your argument) is called 'mansplaining'.
You don’t see it because you don’t live it. It’s death by a thousand cuts. Again, I never blamed men (or any group) for the situation — it’s just backwards American cultural values rearing their ugly head yet again.
maybe you don't see what I'm talking about because you don't live it?
American culture hasn't been 'backwards' for many years. Instead, we are living in a clown world where white men are openly disriminated against because they somehow deserve it and even questioning it is somehow considered racist or sexist.
The latest wage research from google showed us that men are actually being paid less than women. Where is the outcry? The protests??
I've seen so many companies advertise their "diversity" by showing us entire teams of all women. Real diversity there!!
Yet, there are people still convinced the US is a sexist and racist country. Want to see real racism? Go anywhere in Asia to get a job, where a headshot is required and you will be told flat-out that they won't hire you because you are fat, a woman, muslim.
I want a world where race and gender don't matter...instead of being the only thing that matters and racism/sexism of any kind, even if you are a white male, is not acceptable.
American culture hasn't been 'backwards' for many years. Instead, we are living in a clown world where white men are openly disriminated against because they somehow deserve it and even questioning it is somehow considered racist or sexist.
The latest wage research from google showed us that men are actually being paid less than women. Where is the outcry? The protests??
I've seen so many companies advertise their "diversity" by showing us entire teams of all women. Real diversity there!!
Yet, there are people still convinced the US is a sexist and racist country. Want to see real racism? Go anywhere in Asia to get a job, where a headshot is required and you will be told flat-out that they won't hire you because you are fat, a woman, muslim.
I want a world where race and gender don't matter...instead of being the only thing that matters and racism/sexism of any kind, even if you are a white male, is not acceptable.
I agree that it's an important discussion to have, but I think we shouldn't try to see one perspective as superior to the other but rather take a step back and try to evaluate both.
> The skills are social, and not really skills anyone (men or women) respects or admires. Perhaps that's why they are so well paid.
Feels rather contradictory to say that a skill that's well paid isn't admired, given how many people who go into medicine or law for the pay. I also think this is seriously devaluing "soft" skills, and that women are more likely to value them.
> self-superiorization
Isn't this what would less controversially be called self-confidence?
In particular the skill of accepting critique - recieving feedback on your work without it being a criticism of your competence and a challenge to your identity.
> deal with outwardly contemptible behaviour because it's not, "you," who is engaged in it, it's something a person of your position "does."
I kind of want to apply this critique to policing, which is extremely blue collar work.
> but almost all of them are anathema to a traditional masculine identity, which is based on the very competence, principle, and structure that is the barrier to them in dynamic white collar environments
I think you're going to have to unpack this some more.
> instincts and techniques for identifying and aligning correctly to power.
This applies to blue collar situations as well, no? Just perhaps in a more physical way?
> The skills are social, and not really skills anyone (men or women) respects or admires. Perhaps that's why they are so well paid.
Feels rather contradictory to say that a skill that's well paid isn't admired, given how many people who go into medicine or law for the pay. I also think this is seriously devaluing "soft" skills, and that women are more likely to value them.
> self-superiorization
Isn't this what would less controversially be called self-confidence?
In particular the skill of accepting critique - recieving feedback on your work without it being a criticism of your competence and a challenge to your identity.
> deal with outwardly contemptible behaviour because it's not, "you," who is engaged in it, it's something a person of your position "does."
I kind of want to apply this critique to policing, which is extremely blue collar work.
> but almost all of them are anathema to a traditional masculine identity, which is based on the very competence, principle, and structure that is the barrier to them in dynamic white collar environments
I think you're going to have to unpack this some more.
> instincts and techniques for identifying and aligning correctly to power.
This applies to blue collar situations as well, no? Just perhaps in a more physical way?
> Feels rather contradictory to say that a skill that's well paid isn't admired, given how many people who go into medicine or law for the pay.
High-end prostitutes make great money and no one admires their skills. People go into medicine (or prostitution for that matter) for the money, not to have an admirable skill.
High-end prostitutes make great money and no one admires their skills. People go into medicine (or prostitution for that matter) for the money, not to have an admirable skill.
So what does count as an admirable skill? Football and music? Whose admiration counts, and how do we count it?
Precision, magnanimity, equanimity, honesty, competence, loyalty, charity, etc. If you don't think these are skills, see what happens when we don't practice them. :)
I really don't think it needs unpacking because everyone else on the thread seems to understand. However, using the pretext of a misinterpretation to legitimize a critical view is a good example of a political dynamic. "It's unclear, clarify it to me and I'll signal understanding when it aligns with my view," is a way of patronizing the topic and isn't an honest inquiry. The form of the question positions the questioner as a performative gatekeeper instead of an inquirer. I think the kids call it "sealioning," these days.
I really don't think it needs unpacking because everyone else on the thread seems to understand. However, using the pretext of a misinterpretation to legitimize a critical view is a good example of a political dynamic. "It's unclear, clarify it to me and I'll signal understanding when it aligns with my view," is a way of patronizing the topic and isn't an honest inquiry. The form of the question positions the questioner as a performative gatekeeper instead of an inquirer. I think the kids call it "sealioning," these days.
Honestly, I think we admire people for their character, not skills.
I need more of a definition of "superiorize". I kind of lost the meaning of every sentence where that word appeared.
It's similar to how you relate to a kid where you recognize yourself as an adult and them as a child, so you don't personalize or internalize their actions. Doctors and patients, even developers and users. You can be equitable about it by accepting things as they are, but internally, you can do that because you don't need for them to reflect your own self belief.
Among adults, it's recognizing people as true others, who are not a part of "your," tribe or experience, just neutral independent beings. In a professional context, their opinions are objective things that you don't register personally because your sense of self does not depend on your relationship to them. People will bend over backwards trying to explain it in a non-hierarchical neutral zen way, but the example makes it easier.
It comes from working with animals, where a trainer needs to emotionally separate themselves from the animals actions so you cease to relate to them an a reactive way.
Among adults, it's recognizing people as true others, who are not a part of "your," tribe or experience, just neutral independent beings. In a professional context, their opinions are objective things that you don't register personally because your sense of self does not depend on your relationship to them. People will bend over backwards trying to explain it in a non-hierarchical neutral zen way, but the example makes it easier.
It comes from working with animals, where a trainer needs to emotionally separate themselves from the animals actions so you cease to relate to them an a reactive way.
Thank you for explaining!
Pretty sure that word was made up - Google draws a blank.
On mobile so can't source it for you now, but it originated either in a translation of General L'Hotte or Baucher. However you would be surprised how many words and usages cannot be found on Google or in modern dictionaries.
What people call self confidence comes from experience or beliefs, and few people who encounter it can tell the difference.
What people call self confidence comes from experience or beliefs, and few people who encounter it can tell the difference.
>This is why an elite education is so valued, because no matter what happens "you still went to Harvard/have a PhD etc."
After working with many engineering grads from top schools and meeting Industry PhDs, I'm disenchanted by this.
Everyone can do math at this level, so it seems to boil down to personal skills, work ethic, and genuine interest.
The trifecta is rare, and I haven't found many. These people arent often at a company for too long.
After working with many engineering grads from top schools and meeting Industry PhDs, I'm disenchanted by this.
Everyone can do math at this level, so it seems to boil down to personal skills, work ethic, and genuine interest.
The trifecta is rare, and I haven't found many. These people arent often at a company for too long.
This article talks a bit about the difficulties that come with making the transition (and the transition can be hard) but doesn't address the benefits. Working in blue collar positions can give one a unique perspective in WC positions: knowledge of how hard work can be, a production driven mindset, a work hard play hard approach, limited tolerance for doddling and other B.S. and so on. This can be incredibly useful differentiation in the WC workplace.
My route has been opposite, from white to blue collar. I was software developer and sysadmin for 16 years, straight out of school. For past 3 years I've been full time hand engraver and CNC machinist at my own company. I get to do very cool actual physical objects, starting from design with customer all the way to the finished product. Not a single regret so far, even though the office job was cozy and paid very well.
You are not a blue collar worker. You are a business owner. Being a business owner sometimes entails working blue collar like work but it doesn't mean you are a blue collar worker.
This is something I see a lot. When people say "my plumber makes $200k/year" what they mean is the guy who owns a plumbing business they use makes that much money. Very few blue collar workers that aren't also small business owners make over $100k/year and it can be pretty hard to get the gigs that do (usually require having many years of experience and being in the union in a particular area like NYC, or having a very rare specialty). The only "easy" way to break $100k/year as a blue collar worker is to work lots of overtime, which isn't exactly an apples-to-apples comparison with white collar jobs
No wonder all the blue collar work is boring. You're automatically excluding everything that is interesting...
I think the biggest surprise for me was learning that white collar workers are neither more intelligent or wiser than blue collar ones, and that upper management is also made up of people with no particular oversupply of either attribute. They are just people who were born into the right social class and who are really good at playing the power game.
Dishwasher, Linecook (Grad student), Construction worker, Construction Superintendent, PhD Student, Field Superintendent, Business Analyst, .NET developer, Java Dev & now Program Manager. I still love to be linecook, construction any day. The best job satisfaction I ever had. I see young kids these days just beaming with pride that are able to do a crud app or some react bs and they think they own the world. No respect sorry.
>> I still love to be linecook, construction any day. The best job satisfaction I ever had.
Why ?
Why ?
Because there is no setting out to change the world “fakery”. Let’s face it, we are not changing the world by swiping right or left for hookups. Or, ordering delivery by tapping on the phone instead of calling the takeout place. When I am feeding a hungry person or building a shelter that’s going to stand there for a hundred years I am literally changing the world.
Can you give detail in salary trajectory ?
Dishwasher $8/hr , Linecook 10.50/hr (Grad student), Construction worker 18/hr, Construction Superintendent 60K plus bonus, PhD Student, Field Superintendent 75k, Business Analyst 90k, .NET developer 100k, Java Dev 110k & now Program Manager (confidential :) )
I have a relative who was a blue-collar health worker for most of his life. He's in his mid-50s and started taking night classes a few years ago. Last week he graduated with his bachelor's degree and appears headed for a management job with his current employer.
I think it's awesome. He's so proud of that degree, and the rest of us are, too. It seems a little more special.
I think it's awesome. He's so proud of that degree, and the rest of us are, too. It seems a little more special.
I worked in a textiles factory in IT, one astonishing thing I found soon was, dealing with the blue-collar people was way easier. People did what you asked to, and were smarter.
Surprised just how clean this article is.
Actual writing. Real groundwork. Relevant outlinks. No referral links (they totally could have sneak that in on the ONE amazon link).
Solid...anyone know what melmag is?
Actual writing. Real groundwork. Relevant outlinks. No referral links (they totally could have sneak that in on the ONE amazon link).
Solid...anyone know what melmag is?
>As a delivery driver, people wouldn’t talk to me the same way or wouldn’t ask for advice and stuff. I’m the same person with a different position but it seems like people respect me more because of what I do.
Because as a delivery driver, you follow instructions
As an engineer, you are paid to think critically, using logic and math as needed.
You should be more talented at making decisions after school + experience than before. Which is why people would ask you for advice.
Is there anything surprising/wrong about this? I don't ask high school kids for investing advice.
Because as a delivery driver, you follow instructions
As an engineer, you are paid to think critically, using logic and math as needed.
You should be more talented at making decisions after school + experience than before. Which is why people would ask you for advice.
Is there anything surprising/wrong about this? I don't ask high school kids for investing advice.
I remind people at my company that I used to clean the shitters at a diesel garage.
Strange that someone would get a degree in mechanical engineering, then go into IT.