Apple Attempted to Censor Critical Coverage of Its $1k Monitor Stand(extremetech.com)
extremetech.com
Apple Attempted to Censor Critical Coverage of Its $1k Monitor Stand
https://www.extremetech.com/computing/292771-apple-attempted-to-censor-critical-coverage-of-its-1000-monitor-stand
54 comments
But that’s a ~TV~... a screen etc
Here it’s $1000 for two slabs of metal and a hinge...
Here it’s $1000 for two slabs of metal and a hinge...
Something got lost in editing on my phone. B&O stand starts at $1000.
Sorry.
Sorry.
This was such a monumental marketing fail. If they had just said the price of the monitor was $7000 none of the target audience would have blinked.
Then when it went on sale, they could have quietly added in their configuration when you buy it:
Then when it went on sale, they could have quietly added in their configuration when you buy it:
-$700 Vesa mountI could see it if the stand provided some benefit other than looking cool. Like acting as a heat-sink, or being a massive Thunderbolt hub.
But even I, who has bought half a dozen launch-day Apple items, was surprised that this price point made it through the marketing department. It came off as really tone-deaf. More than half of the Macs in my office use reams of paper as monitor stands.
Maybe iFixit will do a teardown and find out it's made from mermaid scales and unicorn farts.
But even I, who has bought half a dozen launch-day Apple items, was surprised that this price point made it through the marketing department. It came off as really tone-deaf. More than half of the Macs in my office use reams of paper as monitor stands.
Maybe iFixit will do a teardown and find out it's made from mermaid scales and unicorn farts.
$5000 for the iMac Pro isn’t bad if you need that kind of power - even though you could spec a regular 5K iMac that was close enough and save a grand.
The price of the Mac Pro + monitor wouldn’t even make me blink if I had a business that needed it.
But the stand is ridiculous even by Apple standards.
The price of the Mac Pro + monitor wouldn’t even make me blink if I had a business that needed it.
But the stand is ridiculous even by Apple standards.
It's bad when you can build a desktop with the same components for $2000 or less, without the Apple Tax. Trying to act as though they aren't marking everything up at least 100% is disingenuous, but extremely common for some reason.
So try to configure an iMac Pro level desktop for $2000 less.
Don’t forget that the 5K monitor by itself is $1300.
Also try configuring a workstation for $3000 with the specs of the Mac Pro.
On the lower end, try configuring a desktop for much less than the $2100 iMac 5K.
Don’t forget that the 5K monitor by itself is $1300.
Also try configuring a workstation for $3000 with the specs of the Mac Pro.
On the lower end, try configuring a desktop for much less than the $2100 iMac 5K.
Small nitpick, the Mac Pro and iMac Pro are 2 different products.
Yes. And that’s why I use the word “also..”.
But why is it so expensive? That’s the big question. Many times when Apple has been called out for price gauging it has been very easy to just itemize and explain. Here? Just doesn’t seem that its anything else than just price gauging. Any one experienced in mechanics that can shed some light?
The WWDC2019 video literally starts with the text:
"All Rights Reserved. This Broadcast and its contents are the sole property of Apple and are protected by Federal Law and International treaties. You are strictly prohibited from making a copy or modification of, or from rebroadcasting, or re-encoding, this broadcast without the prior written permission from Apple Public Relations, excepts as may be permitted by law."
The whole video is published on YouTube, they could have just linked to the timestamp of the official video on there or on Apples own website.
"All Rights Reserved. This Broadcast and its contents are the sole property of Apple and are protected by Federal Law and International treaties. You are strictly prohibited from making a copy or modification of, or from rebroadcasting, or re-encoding, this broadcast without the prior written permission from Apple Public Relations, excepts as may be permitted by law."
The whole video is published on YouTube, they could have just linked to the timestamp of the official video on there or on Apples own website.
Pretty sure copyright law allows doing exactly what they are saying you are not allowed to do, through fair use
That's the "excepts as may be permitted by law" part.
One of the many reasons I will not buy Apple. You're buying the brand, the name, not actual quality.
I dont know what the exact percent is, but you're paying a significant markup on hardware for Apple vs, say a Dell, for the same hardware. Yeah, OS X is BSD based, but Dell will sell you the equivalent hardware for about half the price and guarantee it works with Linux (with support).
I'm not a Dell fan, despite most of my prior purchases being Dell, but they dont do an insane markup on Linux installs.
Tangent: I've also seen devs work on Macs have their code fail when dployed because they assume OS X is nix and Linux is nix not recognizong that by default, the MacFS is case insensitive, like Windows, but Linux is case sensitive by default.
I dont know what the exact percent is, but you're paying a significant markup on hardware for Apple vs, say a Dell, for the same hardware. Yeah, OS X is BSD based, but Dell will sell you the equivalent hardware for about half the price and guarantee it works with Linux (with support).
I'm not a Dell fan, despite most of my prior purchases being Dell, but they dont do an insane markup on Linux installs.
Tangent: I've also seen devs work on Macs have their code fail when dployed because they assume OS X is nix and Linux is nix not recognizong that by default, the MacFS is case insensitive, like Windows, but Linux is case sensitive by default.
So Apple has been surviving on brand only for 40+ years?
Anecdotally: I am looking at a 5K iMac - 6 Core I5 with 256GB SSD and 16GB of RAM for $2099. The only reputable company that I can find that sells a 5K display is LG and it’s $1300 by itself.
If I try to find an equivalent price Dell it doesn’t cost any less.
Anecdotally: I am looking at a 5K iMac - 6 Core I5 with 256GB SSD and 16GB of RAM for $2099. The only reputable company that I can find that sells a 5K display is LG and it’s $1300 by itself.
If I try to find an equivalent price Dell it doesn’t cost any less.
If a regular display breaks, you can replace it.
If the display in your iMac breaks, you have to spend $$$ to repair it. And maybe apple will tell you that it can't be repaired.
All-in-ones are fine as low end machines but I would never buy a premium one.
If the display in your iMac breaks, you have to spend $$$ to repair it. And maybe apple will tell you that it can't be repaired.
All-in-ones are fine as low end machines but I would never buy a premium one.
So if my regular 5K LG display breaks and it can’t be fixed I am out of $1300.
If my iMac with a 5K display breaks and Apple can’t fix it. I’m out of $2100.
But, Apple usually will offer (non free) repairs for 7 years after a product has been discontinued.
But that still didn’t answer the question, where can you spec out a similar PC much cheaper?
If my iMac with a 5K display breaks and Apple can’t fix it. I’m out of $2100.
But, Apple usually will offer (non free) repairs for 7 years after a product has been discontinued.
But that still didn’t answer the question, where can you spec out a similar PC much cheaper?
If you really want to try - the site https://pcpartpicker.com/ is pretty easy to use for specs.
The original poster said you were paying a “significant markup” for Apple computers and I specifically mentioned the $2100 iMac Pro - 16Gb 6 Core i5 with a 256GB SSD. Seeing the monitor by itself would be $1300. That leaves an $800 budget for an equivalent computer.
So define “significant” and I’m Not building a computer myself like it’s the 90s flipping through Computer Shopper.
So define “significant” and I’m Not building a computer myself like it’s the 90s flipping through Computer Shopper.
> I'm Not building a computer myself like it’s the 90s flipping through Computer Shopper.
Maybe off topic, but...
What's wrong with researching the market and making more edcudated purchases?
Maybe off topic, but...
What's wrong with researching the market and making more edcudated purchases?
If something goes wrong with the Mac hardware, I lug it into an Apple Store and pluck it down on the Genius Bar. If something goes wrong with the FrankenPC not so much.
Was not meaning to challenge you or your opinions, just posting a useful link for pricing PC parts. I own macs and self built PCs, there are benefits to both, depending on what you need and want to invest in. Gaming boxes aren’t something most people buy off the shelf and the data grid on that particular site is impressively well presented for a not-corporate endeavor. Not everyone wants to build their own but my early sysadmin career required it, so I am biased and think it’s a really useful tech skill.
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The display is an example. I have bought an iMac in the past, I regretted it because if anything goes wrong it's a non-standard form factor and it's expensive to fix.
I would happily pay more money for an ATX case with standard components and a separate display. It saves money in the long term because you can do repairs yourself and buy standard replacement parts. This also means if something goes wrong my computer can be repaired on the same day.
If you want the iMac, or you want MacOS, then go ahead and buy it. Just remember to budget for the cost of repairs and the impossibility of upgrades later on.
I would happily pay more money for an ATX case with standard components and a separate display. It saves money in the long term because you can do repairs yourself and buy standard replacement parts. This also means if something goes wrong my computer can be repaired on the same day.
If you want the iMac, or you want MacOS, then go ahead and buy it. Just remember to budget for the cost of repairs and the impossibility of upgrades later on.
Did anything go wrong?
How often do you break your display? Are you carrying around your iMac to places?
This is a poor argument against something that will just sit on your desk without moving it for months if not years.
This is a poor argument against something that will just sit on your desk without moving it for months if not years.
Leaving it motionless on your desk reduces the risk, but you're still one relatively minor mistake from a broken display. If you're unlucky enough to have that happen, Apple products cost much more to repair.
Plus, all of the design related breaks mentioned in the article.
Plus, all of the design related breaks mentioned in the article.
I still find it absolutely ridiculous and extremely unlikely, something that you shouldn’t have to account for. I can understand breaking an iPhone screen since you carry with you at all times.
It is like comparing and shopping for a car based on whether it will accidentally catch fire. Unlikely and there more things to worry about than breaking your monitor screen.
It is like comparing and shopping for a car based on whether it will accidentally catch fire. Unlikely and there more things to worry about than breaking your monitor screen.
It would still be possible for you to break your screen through one minor accident. If you rely on your computer, the possible emergency repair costs should be considered before purchase, even if it's unlikely.
How many computer geeks don’t have at least one spare computer around? For me, all my development is cross platform. If push came to shove, I would setup a VM on AWS and use the Workspaces client for my iPad.
Of course if you’re doing iOS/Mac development the situation is different.
Of course if you’re doing iOS/Mac development the situation is different.
5K is a price outlier. LG Display are the only panel manufacturer, and they appeared in very few retail products. It just didn't become an industry standard size (8K has a better chance).
You can buy a 4K screen with the same pixel density for under 300USD, from a well-known brand.
You can buy four of those for less than that single 5K display. So I would suggest dual 4K.
You can buy a 4K screen with the same pixel density for under 300USD, from a well-known brand.
You can buy four of those for less than that single 5K display. So I would suggest dual 4K.
Not even close.
Sub $300 4k displays are TN panels, or cheap IPS panels with sRGB color gamut, horrible viewing angles, poor calibration, contrast ratio, etc.
If you want to compare, compare it with something like Dell UP2718Q which costs a whopping $1500.
Sub $300 4k displays are TN panels, or cheap IPS panels with sRGB color gamut, horrible viewing angles, poor calibration, contrast ratio, etc.
If you want to compare, compare it with something like Dell UP2718Q which costs a whopping $1500.
I think a better question is how many need the perfect monitor and how many could do with these "horrible" IPs panel.
I am not a graphic designer, I don't really need the best of the best. But what percentage of the market do??
I am not a graphic designer, I don't really need the best of the best. But what percentage of the market do??
There is a difference between not “needing” expensive hardware and saying the hardware is overpriced compared to the competition.
If you haven’t noticed, Apple doesn’t sell low end products. You’re not going to find a Mac with an “Intel® Pentium® Gold Processor G5400” with 4GB OF RAM for $349.
If you haven’t noticed, Apple doesn’t sell low end products. You’re not going to find a Mac with an “Intel® Pentium® Gold Processor G5400” with 4GB OF RAM for $349.
What Im saying is that this is a very niche market. Other companies are barely present here.
It's the same with Microsofts 40" Surface machines. If you let that define "The workstation" then no one has a real alternative to that.
It's the same with Microsofts 40" Surface machines. If you let that define "The workstation" then no one has a real alternative to that.
The submitted article is about:
- An Apple product
- a 32 inch monitor with a 6K display for $6000
- that will probably be sold with a $5000 computer that is expandable to 1.5TB of RAM and a 28 core workstation class processor.
Which part of this discussion is not about a niche product?
On the other hand, the entire desktop market is a niche market. Most PCs being sold today are laptops.
- An Apple product
- a 32 inch monitor with a 6K display for $6000
- that will probably be sold with a $5000 computer that is expandable to 1.5TB of RAM and a 28 core workstation class processor.
Which part of this discussion is not about a niche product?
On the other hand, the entire desktop market is a niche market. Most PCs being sold today are laptops.
>I dont know what the exact percent is, but you're paying a significant markup on hardware for Apple vs, say a Dell, for the same hardware.
Do we have to have this even on HN?
People are paying significant markup on Cars for BMW, Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, Bently. You could buy a Car from Toyota or Kia with Same Horsepower.
The thing is they are NOT the same. They never was.
I find this both fascinating and annoying how people can price something to zero and immediately think it offer no value to others while simultaneously think they deserve better salary or paid. Apple's products still deliver Better Build Quality, Better finishing, Better Trackpad ( I hate the new enlarged size, but still one of the best trackpad out there ) better software integration.
And if anyone wants to ask about Mac Pro price, try spec one out with Dell or HP Workstation and see how they compare. Apple isn't too far off.
The whole Workstation market operating on this margin, I have no idea why other they charge this because they can. But Apple's Mac Pro is quite competitive in its pricing. If all you are looking for is a prosumer, upgradable, Desktop Mac, the Mac Pro isn't for you.
Do we have to have this even on HN?
People are paying significant markup on Cars for BMW, Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, Bently. You could buy a Car from Toyota or Kia with Same Horsepower.
The thing is they are NOT the same. They never was.
I find this both fascinating and annoying how people can price something to zero and immediately think it offer no value to others while simultaneously think they deserve better salary or paid. Apple's products still deliver Better Build Quality, Better finishing, Better Trackpad ( I hate the new enlarged size, but still one of the best trackpad out there ) better software integration.
And if anyone wants to ask about Mac Pro price, try spec one out with Dell or HP Workstation and see how they compare. Apple isn't too far off.
The whole Workstation market operating on this margin, I have no idea why other they charge this because they can. But Apple's Mac Pro is quite competitive in its pricing. If all you are looking for is a prosumer, upgradable, Desktop Mac, the Mac Pro isn't for you.
> People are paying significant markup on Cars for BMW, Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, Bently. You could buy a Car from Toyota or Kia with Same Horsepower.
The thing is they are NOT the same. They never was.
this is kind of an interesting comment. especially since you mentioned bmw. with bmw, you literally are buying a brand. i know at least two motorcycle dealers that stopped carrying bmw because bmw required very specific, and very expensive, signage, paint scheme, flooring, etc. to just be a bmw dealer, even if the dealer carried other motorcycle brands (which were typically high-end italian brands).
the new kia stinger performance destroys the equivalent bmw car, at a significant fraction of the price. not to mention the stinger looks better (subjective) and has insane fit and finish.
https://youtu.be/sPD1joDOlLo
my kia optima has a better fit and finish and leather than any tesla i have been in. with those companies, you are buying a brand more than anything.
> Apple's products still deliver Better Build Quality, Better finishing, Better Trackpad ( I hate the new enlarged size, but still one of the best trackpad out there ) better software integration.
every apple product i have purchased has quit working. my iPad air stopped after just two years of babied operation. it wouldn’t even turn on or charge. apple wanted $300 to “repair” it after claiming it wasn’t a battery issue. my macbook pro’s wifi card stopped after just five years, and many keys barely work due to key failure. the bluetooth never worked with speakers (a common and well documented issue). the chassis would shock me in certain scenarios (another well documented and known issue by users). again, it was babied. my macbook before that required three unsuccessful replacements of the dvd drive before they replaced the entire macbook. my brother’s iphone 7s plus stopped the day after the warranty ended. apple did nothing. another friend’s iPhone 6s plus would just barely work, less than two years in, even after a battery replacement by apple.
and better software integration? not even close. iOS has been a travesty on the iPad in terms of integration. (just try to use multiple audio, music apps and see.) hardly anything about apple’s software just works anymore. i constantly had issues with audio software breaking after basically forced os upgrades.
this is kind of an interesting comment. especially since you mentioned bmw. with bmw, you literally are buying a brand. i know at least two motorcycle dealers that stopped carrying bmw because bmw required very specific, and very expensive, signage, paint scheme, flooring, etc. to just be a bmw dealer, even if the dealer carried other motorcycle brands (which were typically high-end italian brands).
the new kia stinger performance destroys the equivalent bmw car, at a significant fraction of the price. not to mention the stinger looks better (subjective) and has insane fit and finish.
https://youtu.be/sPD1joDOlLo
my kia optima has a better fit and finish and leather than any tesla i have been in. with those companies, you are buying a brand more than anything.
> Apple's products still deliver Better Build Quality, Better finishing, Better Trackpad ( I hate the new enlarged size, but still one of the best trackpad out there ) better software integration.
every apple product i have purchased has quit working. my iPad air stopped after just two years of babied operation. it wouldn’t even turn on or charge. apple wanted $300 to “repair” it after claiming it wasn’t a battery issue. my macbook pro’s wifi card stopped after just five years, and many keys barely work due to key failure. the bluetooth never worked with speakers (a common and well documented issue). the chassis would shock me in certain scenarios (another well documented and known issue by users). again, it was babied. my macbook before that required three unsuccessful replacements of the dvd drive before they replaced the entire macbook. my brother’s iphone 7s plus stopped the day after the warranty ended. apple did nothing. another friend’s iPhone 6s plus would just barely work, less than two years in, even after a battery replacement by apple.
and better software integration? not even close. iOS has been a travesty on the iPad in terms of integration. (just try to use multiple audio, music apps and see.) hardly anything about apple’s software just works anymore. i constantly had issues with audio software breaking after basically forced os upgrades.
1. my iPad air stopped after just two years of babied operation. - My Windows phone stopped getting software updates 6 months after I bought it, brand new. My Android tablet stopped charging after one and a half year.
2. macbook pro’s wifi card stopped. - I've had WiFi cards that never shipped drivers for the latest Windows OS, after just a year.
3. key failure - Valid, and pretty inexcusable by Apple
4. bluetooth never worked with speakers. - Bluetooth (below v4) never worked correctly between different brands, always had issues no matter what combo I used.
5. audio software breaking... well Windows are insanely great on backwards compability for apps, I'll give you that.
My point is that there will be issues wherever you go. I have a Macbook that is working after 10 years. I had a Toshiba that broke after just one year (soundcard). My family members have had two Dells that broke before reaching 2 years.
The only ones that have data points on this I assume are insurance companies.
2. macbook pro’s wifi card stopped. - I've had WiFi cards that never shipped drivers for the latest Windows OS, after just a year.
3. key failure - Valid, and pretty inexcusable by Apple
4. bluetooth never worked with speakers. - Bluetooth (below v4) never worked correctly between different brands, always had issues no matter what combo I used.
5. audio software breaking... well Windows are insanely great on backwards compability for apps, I'll give you that.
My point is that there will be issues wherever you go. I have a Macbook that is working after 10 years. I had a Toshiba that broke after just one year (soundcard). My family members have had two Dells that broke before reaching 2 years.
The only ones that have data points on this I assume are insurance companies.
all i can go off of is my own experience. i can’t think of any other consumer electronics that have just outright failed like my apple products have. it is significant. and no one else is claiming those other products are built better than everything else, which is part of my point. apple markets and hypes themselves like no other company, and people just end up repeating what apple says, where apple gives no data to back up their claims. they just state it as fact, and yet, in many people’s experience, apple products fail just as if not more often than other brands.
and you are missing the point as well that many of these issues on the apple products are long standing issues across multiple iterations of them. just search bluetooth audio not working on macbook pro’s (iPads and iPhones have been fine in my experience). it is specific to them. and again, i have never had a single issue with other bluetooth devices and audio. (there’s an interesting issue too with bluetooth headphones. for certain bluetooth headphones, mac os x will automatically open itunes upon connect, and there’s nothing you can do other than having to go through a convoluted process to basically rename itunes so that it doesn’t get launched. this isn’t “just works”. and again, pointing other issues with other brands is irrelevant because it is apple that is being claimed as robust and always working.)
and the branding thing is still not addressed. my lg v35 is every bit as good as my girlfriend’s and brother’s iPhone xs max and even has major features the iPhone doesn’t have, and yet, it was almost half the price. you can’t explain that any other way than people pay apple for the brand.
and you are missing the point as well that many of these issues on the apple products are long standing issues across multiple iterations of them. just search bluetooth audio not working on macbook pro’s (iPads and iPhones have been fine in my experience). it is specific to them. and again, i have never had a single issue with other bluetooth devices and audio. (there’s an interesting issue too with bluetooth headphones. for certain bluetooth headphones, mac os x will automatically open itunes upon connect, and there’s nothing you can do other than having to go through a convoluted process to basically rename itunes so that it doesn’t get launched. this isn’t “just works”. and again, pointing other issues with other brands is irrelevant because it is apple that is being claimed as robust and always working.)
and the branding thing is still not addressed. my lg v35 is every bit as good as my girlfriend’s and brother’s iPhone xs max and even has major features the iPhone doesn’t have, and yet, it was almost half the price. you can’t explain that any other way than people pay apple for the brand.
Apple themselves doesn't really compare themselves to PC manufacturers any longer, so that's probably by journalists being edgy as always.
My experience with PC:s and Bluetooth has been very different from yours. One time I even remember buying a Bluetooth dongle even though the motherboard had it built in, just to make it connect. But to be honest it more than a decade ago.
I'm actually in process of upgrading from iPhone SE to LG V30 or Xiaomi Mi, though I really don't like switching from Apples ecosystem especially now when they are getting even more privacy-focused. I can understand why the iPhone XR and the likes are so expensive from the spec-sheet, but I really don't need those specs (especially if you factor in non-linearity of pricing, so a 10% "better" camera might mean a 40% more expensive camera chip). LG V30 has a lot of cool features so it's still a massive upgrade for me. End-to-end screen, good battery life and wireless charging.
My experience with PC:s and Bluetooth has been very different from yours. One time I even remember buying a Bluetooth dongle even though the motherboard had it built in, just to make it connect. But to be honest it more than a decade ago.
I'm actually in process of upgrading from iPhone SE to LG V30 or Xiaomi Mi, though I really don't like switching from Apples ecosystem especially now when they are getting even more privacy-focused. I can understand why the iPhone XR and the likes are so expensive from the spec-sheet, but I really don't need those specs (especially if you factor in non-linearity of pricing, so a 10% "better" camera might mean a 40% more expensive camera chip). LG V30 has a lot of cool features so it's still a massive upgrade for me. End-to-end screen, good battery life and wireless charging.
>The only ones that have data points on this I assume are insurance companies.
So much this, not saying Apple's product are perfect ( Far from it ), they are just comparatively ( Not selectively comparing, but over all ) better. And yes I think by Numbers BMW might even be less reliable than the Toyota, but people still buy BMW, for quality that is hard to quantify in numbers.
It is one reason I really wish SurfaceBook and Chrome Book could do better. Apple need some competition to keep them sane.
So much this, not saying Apple's product are perfect ( Far from it ), they are just comparatively ( Not selectively comparing, but over all ) better. And yes I think by Numbers BMW might even be less reliable than the Toyota, but people still buy BMW, for quality that is hard to quantify in numbers.
It is one reason I really wish SurfaceBook and Chrome Book could do better. Apple need some competition to keep them sane.
BMW consistintly ranks at the bottom of reliability raitings, and toyota at the top. Its hard to compre the difference in construction. BMW has more luxury feel, but the fit and finish, and general construction are not on par with their japneese rivals.
What a click-bait headline. The title suggests Apple was involved in a large effort to silence the negative coverage. The article lists only one instance where they asked the website to pull down the video because it infringes copyright! The article is still up, right?
Also, do people really believe that Apple makes their billions by selling dongles?
Also, do people really believe that Apple makes their billions by selling dongles?
You're right, the title is kinda clickbait but the argument still "stands": a $1k stand his basically taking users for cash cows (while a majority of them are sheep)
Exactly. It seems like all Apple did was request videos taken down for copyright infringement. They never edited their own video, and, last I checked, you could still even hear the audience's reaction to the stand. All they did was try to protect copyright of their videos, and look what happens. Some people love to hate Apple.
Link to the original reporting, instead of some other web site re-writing someone else's work:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/06/05/apple_stand_copyrig...
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/06/05/apple_stand_copyrig...
this was posted after the original article (if you make such a claim, get your facts straight)
"Sign In with Apple" is top post right now so I should I have figured this would not get much traction ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You do realize that those are two completely distinct things and people can like one but not the other?
I do, do you realize I used the shrug?
I think it is pricy but not when compared to the kind of things apple likes to compare themselves with.
Their watch is expensive, but not compared with a Rolex.