Arabic and Islamic Themes in Frank Herbert's “Dune” (2004-2017)(baheyeldin.com)
baheyeldin.com
Arabic and Islamic Themes in Frank Herbert's “Dune” (2004-2017)
https://baheyeldin.com/literature/arabic-and-islamic-themes-in-frank-herberts-dune.html
73 comments
Text analysis based on second hand accounts and reputation? You would get kicked out of mentat school for that sort of silliness
Because the article is interesting and insightful.
The full paragraph you quote starts with:
"In this article, I try to explain in detail where Frank Herbert got his names, concepts, and words from."
I'm not sure that "but you didn't read the whole book/series!" qualifies as a reasonable critique of someone who's just giving some (AFAICT straight-forward) etymological background on a few names and concepts...
Also, HN is not some high arbiter of taste. It's just a voting-based algorithm, and the population of voters isn't that large. A re-statement of your question might be: "so why did 60 random internet people click on this at around the same time?", and the answer might be "because there were 60 people who like dune, happened to be on hn around the time this was posted, and don't know much about islam/arabic" :)
The full paragraph you quote starts with:
"In this article, I try to explain in detail where Frank Herbert got his names, concepts, and words from."
I'm not sure that "but you didn't read the whole book/series!" qualifies as a reasonable critique of someone who's just giving some (AFAICT straight-forward) etymological background on a few names and concepts...
Also, HN is not some high arbiter of taste. It's just a voting-based algorithm, and the population of voters isn't that large. A re-statement of your question might be: "so why did 60 random internet people click on this at around the same time?", and the answer might be "because there were 60 people who like dune, happened to be on hn around the time this was posted, and don't know much about islam/arabic" :)
On a tangential note, your post reminded me that I should go read "How to talk about books you haven't read", at least for the peace of mind, if not anything else.
You should certainly talk about it, anyway (and you're doing it already, so, great!).
Jokes aside, that's a surprisingly good book, and the ideas it presents are quite useful in a number of seemingly unrelated life contexts.
Jokes aside, that's a surprisingly good book, and the ideas it presents are quite useful in a number of seemingly unrelated life contexts.
> It is amazing that Frank Herbert would be exposed to this term, and make use of it.
This sort of summarizes the article. The author is apparently unaware that Frank Herbert had wide and varied interests and did an enormous amount of research for the books.
This sort of summarizes the article. The author is apparently unaware that Frank Herbert had wide and varied interests and did an enormous amount of research for the books.
Or they are completely aware that Herbert did vast amounts of research, and they are still impressed at some of the things he encountered.
Perhaps but to me this still implies the idea that the arab and muslim worlds are somehow mysterious in the West.
I don't know how true that was in the USA but certainly Europe has had more than a thousand years of intimate contacts with the arab world, which is not mysterious at all.
I don't know how true that was in the USA but certainly Europe has had more than a thousand years of intimate contacts with the arab world, which is not mysterious at all.
>Europe has had more than a thousand years of intimate contacts with the arab world, which is not mysterious at all.
How familiar do you think most of Europe would be with tenth century Islamic theology? It's not mysterious, but it also isn't well known either.
How familiar do you think most of Europe would be with tenth century Islamic theology? It's not mysterious, but it also isn't well known either.
The point is not that it is well-known by the public at large but that someone interested in the topic will find a huge body of work and knowledge on it because of the extensive contacts over time.
As you say, the contact has left a huge body of work. Combing through that knowledge is an extensive undertaking, and what methods you use will lead you to different places.
>Perhaps but to me this still implies the idea that the arab and muslim worlds are somehow mysterious in the West.
An idea which is totally true...
>I don't know how true that was in the USA but certainly Europe has had more than a thousand years of intimate contacts with the arab world, which is not mysterious at all.
And yet, the knowledge of it, for the vast majority (even if they have Ph.Ds on unrelated topics) is superficial at best. You'd be lucky if they know Avicenna, Omar Khayyam (funnily, both Persian muslims) or the Moors...
(Well, in the US that's also true for all kinds of world cultures, with the exception of Japanese anime-related culture).
An idea which is totally true...
>I don't know how true that was in the USA but certainly Europe has had more than a thousand years of intimate contacts with the arab world, which is not mysterious at all.
And yet, the knowledge of it, for the vast majority (even if they have Ph.Ds on unrelated topics) is superficial at best. You'd be lucky if they know Avicenna, Omar Khayyam (funnily, both Persian muslims) or the Moors...
(Well, in the US that's also true for all kinds of world cultures, with the exception of Japanese anime-related culture).
I think this is true of non-writers in general. Writing good fiction is enormously difficult work and reading it is leisure. Creates some tension.
Maybe the same reason we know have people poo-pooing the modern computer age -- moore's law for decades, the modern software stack, the internet, etc. -- as not amazing innovation. And down playing the role all of that has played in everything else humans now do from satellite systems to sequencing the genome. They think that because their interactions with computers are mostly mindless that modern computing must have been no great feat to build.
Maybe the same reason we know have people poo-pooing the modern computer age -- moore's law for decades, the modern software stack, the internet, etc. -- as not amazing innovation. And down playing the role all of that has played in everything else humans now do from satellite systems to sequencing the genome. They think that because their interactions with computers are mostly mindless that modern computing must have been no great feat to build.
I read all of these novels as a teenager, and was oblivious to the Islamic references and influences. Even terms like "jihad" were alien to me at the time.
I'm now married into a Muslim family, and am much more culturally aware. I reread the books recently and was stunned by how many Islamic and Arabic terminology was prevalent in the text.
I'm now married into a Muslim family, and am much more culturally aware. I reread the books recently and was stunned by how many Islamic and Arabic terminology was prevalent in the text.
i wonder if there was a general feeling in the 80s or so that the shrinking of the world - through the internet or whatever else technology people of the 80s may foresee - would cause the world views of different communities around the world to become more syncretized, in the same way you have various diaspora e.g. Chinese-American, Italian-American, Chinese-Indonesian cultures having plenty of cultural and religious adaptations, in addition to vestigial features, compared to the ancestral nation they left.
It certainly didn't feel like the world turned out that way by the '10s. Now more than ever I think it is unlikely that two different cultures are likely to blend, never mind two massively different ones like Buddhism and Islam (the zensunni) or Buddhism and Christianity (OC) as imagined in the Dune universe. You see gradual extinction/diminishing of a lot of cultures around the world - the disappearing toisanese communities of american chinatowns, arabization of south-east asian muslims, or the fading of austro/polynesian cultures as a dominant culture takes root. nothing truly merges unless there is a strong top down effort to ensure the survival of a marginal culture, and by corollary, religion.
It certainly didn't feel like the world turned out that way by the '10s. Now more than ever I think it is unlikely that two different cultures are likely to blend, never mind two massively different ones like Buddhism and Islam (the zensunni) or Buddhism and Christianity (OC) as imagined in the Dune universe. You see gradual extinction/diminishing of a lot of cultures around the world - the disappearing toisanese communities of american chinatowns, arabization of south-east asian muslims, or the fading of austro/polynesian cultures as a dominant culture takes root. nothing truly merges unless there is a strong top down effort to ensure the survival of a marginal culture, and by corollary, religion.
I don't know, I feel there is a new population segment of "Internationals". We speak mostly English despite coming from various countries, usually share a lot of interests and lifestyle, and usually have very similar, progressive values. I honestly have more in common with a Chinese or Indian International than a rural christian from my own country.
This is a very privileged minority though, and it is unclear, if this process will continue and extend across more segments of the population,
This is a very privileged minority though, and it is unclear, if this process will continue and extend across more segments of the population,
Who would have thought the descendants of the Puritans would be using words like yoga, karma, avatar or reading the Bhagavadgita? Or there is the joke that the four branches of Judaism are Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Buddhist etc.
Mostly this is taking place at an individual not communal level at the moment but given a long enough time scale I could see it happening.
Mostly this is taking place at an individual not communal level at the moment but given a long enough time scale I could see it happening.
>Who would have thought the descendants of the Puritans would be using words like yoga, karma, avatar or reading the Bhagavadgita?
Don't underestimate them! With enough marketing and dilution of concepts, and a few celebrity/rich people endorsements, they can consume shallow feel-good products made from any ancient culture (as long as they don't have to make any real commitments to said culture of course).
Don't underestimate them! With enough marketing and dilution of concepts, and a few celebrity/rich people endorsements, they can consume shallow feel-good products made from any ancient culture (as long as they don't have to make any real commitments to said culture of course).
Note that even in Herbert's world, most members of the congregation setting up OC retracted their support for the Bible and/or got executed by their churches soon after coming back home. Universal adoption came centuries later.
I think something similar does happen in the real world. Sitting on a fence does win you hate from both sides, yes. But take for example Poland, a deeply Catholic culture with quite a bunch of Islamic symbolism (e.g. traditional szabla being a crescent-shaped sword, unlike the cross-shaped of the rest of the Europe) and even a well integrated Muslim minority (stuck around since repelling the crusade in 1410).
I think something similar does happen in the real world. Sitting on a fence does win you hate from both sides, yes. But take for example Poland, a deeply Catholic culture with quite a bunch of Islamic symbolism (e.g. traditional szabla being a crescent-shaped sword, unlike the cross-shaped of the rest of the Europe) and even a well integrated Muslim minority (stuck around since repelling the crusade in 1410).
"dune -- the battle for arrakis" what a trip down the memory lane! it had one of the best game soundtracks ever made. command and conquer, starcraft and warcraft all came a few years later and copied everything they did right. but dune was way too iconic.
okay... perhaps command and conquer came close enough. i still remember siding with the global defense initiative because the name sounded way too cool.
someone ought to put these real-time strategy gems in a classic package!
okay... perhaps command and conquer came close enough. i still remember siding with the global defense initiative because the name sounded way too cool.
someone ought to put these real-time strategy gems in a classic package!
Dune II was developed by Westwood Studios before C&C. Also, they made a remake of the game with C&C engine, Dune 2000. I really like it because of the different kind of grounds and the sandworms that both add tactical depths in comparison to C&C and RA.
Man I can't even describe how much I looked forward to the release of C&C and the excitement when I finally got to play it.
Interesting words left out of his analysis that I caught in a recent re-read.
* Zurna: A Turkish clay Clarinet of sorts, somewhat of a grandchild of a similar Egyptian instrument. * Tabla: Egyptian word for drum (also Hindi, I'm not sure which one came first). Called Derbakki by Kurds/Druze/Syrians, Dumbek and Darbuka in Turkish, and Tarabukka by the Slavs.
Spice orgy. Not an Arabic term, but rather it seems to be a reference to an early Sufism ritual where Hashish would be taken before and during a week-long Sema (think non-stop whirling dervishes). Theoretically they were not sexual, but rather considered to be an "orgy of spirituality" brought on by long-term extortion of the senses (try spinning for 30 seconds .. imagine doing it for 24 hours).
* Zurna: A Turkish clay Clarinet of sorts, somewhat of a grandchild of a similar Egyptian instrument. * Tabla: Egyptian word for drum (also Hindi, I'm not sure which one came first). Called Derbakki by Kurds/Druze/Syrians, Dumbek and Darbuka in Turkish, and Tarabukka by the Slavs.
Spice orgy. Not an Arabic term, but rather it seems to be a reference to an early Sufism ritual where Hashish would be taken before and during a week-long Sema (think non-stop whirling dervishes). Theoretically they were not sexual, but rather considered to be an "orgy of spirituality" brought on by long-term extortion of the senses (try spinning for 30 seconds .. imagine doing it for 24 hours).
This has all the hallmarks of content generated under contract to collect hits. It is a micro industry providing piecework to people who can write but are otherwise not employable, e.g. due to location. I love the honesty though:
<<I did not read the original novels. I have watched and enjoyed the movie and the mini-series, and read summaries of the novels. >>
<<I did not read the original novels. I have watched and enjoyed the movie and the mini-series, and read summaries of the novels. >>
Not only are there Islamic themes, there are also Jewish themes. The name "Kwisatz Haderach" is based on Hebrew. (This is mentioned in the list.)
There are a number of religious themes blended in Dune. The main religious text is the Orange Catholic Bible, which by name implicates Catholicism/Christianity, but also includes Islam, Judaism, and Buddhism. It even includes hypothetical blends of Islam/Buddhism and Christianity/Buddhism. Frank Herbert never fully explains how all religions eventually ended up blended into one, but he does explore the religion quite a bit, and some background is given in the prequels that his son wrote.
I enjoy it, because I feel very clever when I recognize how some idea in Dune can be traced to an existing religion or philosophy.
https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Orange_Catholic_Bible
Edit: to speak more to your main topic, I believe the Bene Gesserit tradition of following matriarchal lineage comes from some part of Judaism.
I enjoy it, because I feel very clever when I recognize how some idea in Dune can be traced to an existing religion or philosophy.
https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Orange_Catholic_Bible
Edit: to speak more to your main topic, I believe the Bene Gesserit tradition of following matriarchal lineage comes from some part of Judaism.
'Catholic' does not neccessary refer to Roman Catholic and/or Christianity. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_(term)
It does 99.9% of the time, with the 0.1% exception coming from people that are being pedantic. The Wikipedia page you linked to is part of a series on Christianity, and it's pretty clear in Herbert's writing that the Orange Catholics do have Christian influences (alongside the previously mentioned Islam, Judaism, and Buddhism).
In the later books, perhaps the ones by Brian Herbert, they discover a planet of Jews, mostly unchanged for 15,000 years, except they have created some self-fashioned bene gesseret-like women.
last Frank Herbert book Chapter House Dune and from what I remember it was more like an underground society of Jewsish people who kept their beliefs completely unchanged over the thousands of years, as opposed to all the other religions and societies. I think it was politically organised along matriarchal lines but there were still male rabbis. I shoul read it again it's been decades!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapterhouse:_Dune
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapterhouse:_Dune
The story line was really fascinating, especially the conflict and eventual merger with "The Whores".. However, when he wrote the last two books, beginning with the beautiful introductional ode to Herbert's deceased wife, .. it's clear his heart wasn't in it, and he was ready for the end (of either writing, or his days on the earth).
Arabic and Hebrew both have a common ancestor: proto-Semitic
There's an interesting link of correspondence between them, the letter: ش in Arabic corresponds to ש in Hebrew (and Ш in Cyrillic) having more or less the same sound.
There's an interesting link of correspondence between them, the letter: ش in Arabic corresponds to ש in Hebrew (and Ш in Cyrillic) having more or less the same sound.
I thought these themes were so overt that even as a young boy they were very apparent to me.
I'm surprised they don't mention the Dune prequel titled "The Butlerian Jihad," written by Frank Herbert's son according to the former's notes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butlerian_Jihad
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butlerian_Jihad
I'm not. Kevin J Anderson is basically the sci-fi equivalent of a grave robber, in my view.
Penny Arcade went a little further: https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/10/15
(with justification, imo - the crudity and stupidity of the "Extended" Dune universe books warrants this level of snark)
(with justification, imo - the crudity and stupidity of the "Extended" Dune universe books warrants this level of snark)
Butlerian Jihad didn’t seem that awful at the time (I was 12), but oh boy was “Paul of Dune” ever an unworthy installment.
A lot of people (myself included) try to forget the Brian Herbert books ever existed.
The prelude books are OK and the sequels at least gave us some closure.
The butlerian jihad trilogy was awful though, it was there to give some necessary background information for the end of the series but when you've got characters with ancestral memories and characters that can see through time that probably could have been done in a much better way.
The butlerian jihad trilogy was awful though, it was there to give some necessary background information for the end of the series but when you've got characters with ancestral memories and characters that can see through time that probably could have been done in a much better way.
They (B&K) always claimed that their end of the series was based on the notes by Frank Herbert that they found at some point. They however, have never disclosed those notes, to at least give us an opportunity to verify those claims. I have a hard time accepting their revelation about Marty and Daniel. I also believe that their interpretation of the Butlerian Jihad deviates substantial from the idea of Frank Herbert. And that it is just the other way around, that they had to deviate from the notes by Frank Herbert (which it seems they only found after having written the prequels) to make them fit with those prequels.
Your post was downvoted based on peoples' silly biases against the idea of anybody but the original author contributing to a sci-fi universe.
> Implying implications
A more likely reason is that most of them are really badly written. The books feel as though the writers wanted to make a quick cash grab using existing IP, but completely misunderstood what the exact appeal of the original works was.
A more likely reason is that most of them are really badly written. The books feel as though the writers wanted to make a quick cash grab using existing IP, but completely misunderstood what the exact appeal of the original works was.
the writers wanted to make a quick cash grab using existing IP, but completely misunderstood what the exact appeal of the original works was
See also the reboots of Star Trek, Star Wars, Dr Who...
See also the reboots of Star Trek, Star Wars, Dr Who...
Perhaps because it was indescribably awful.
Not only are there Islamic/Arabic and Jewish themes, there are also Persian themes. Padishah in "The Padishah Emperor" comes from Persian and means king.
The article only mentions the videogame Dune II, but I think the true gem is the very first game Dune I, which blended adventure and strategy. It was magical
Not sure the (2004) tag is warranted. Despite the publish date on the page, the article mentions watching a documentary in 2017.
If you're wanting to read it yourself, beware: The author clearly tried to restructure this a few times and then failed to clean up after themselves.
> For example, Atreides is directly taken from Homer's Iliad, and is hence of Greek mythological origin. Vladimir is a Slavic name, and common in Russia, which was the Evil Empire during the Cold War era. [...] Also names such as Vladimir and Atreides are from Slavic and Ancient Greek cultures.
If you're wanting to read it yourself, beware: The author clearly tried to restructure this a few times and then failed to clean up after themselves.
> For example, Atreides is directly taken from Homer's Iliad, and is hence of Greek mythological origin. Vladimir is a Slavic name, and common in Russia, which was the Evil Empire during the Cold War era. [...] Also names such as Vladimir and Atreides are from Slavic and Ancient Greek cultures.
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>The novel is symbolic about the dependence of the West on the oil, and the power struggles to control this valuable resource.
Very first paragraph, and already a turn-off.
Very first paragraph, and already a turn-off.
I mean, it's a novel about the politics of foreign powers trying to extract a valuable resource which is crucial for transportation from a desert region that is explicitly described as looking like a cross between Mexico and the Arabian Peninsula (even to the point of Arakis having date palms and saguaro cactus), so uh...
...what was a turn off? That the author felt the need to point out the glaringly obvious?
(Obviously the book explored many other themes about power, religion, culture, environmentalism, etc., plus it was a pretty good story. But you can't really pretend the Middle East and oil weren't also major themes in the book.)
...what was a turn off? That the author felt the need to point out the glaringly obvious?
(Obviously the book explored many other themes about power, religion, culture, environmentalism, etc., plus it was a pretty good story. But you can't really pretend the Middle East and oil weren't also major themes in the book.)
I can't speak for what bugged the above poster, but that sentence is worded in an incredibly awkward way.
Not really. English your first language? I’d take out the last comma and that’s it
Eh... The phrase "symbolic about" is weird. "X is symbolic" is fine, and "X symbolises Y" is fine, but "X is symbolic about Y" is unusual at best.
I'd probably go for something like "The novel can be read as an allegory for the dependence of the West on oil, and for the power struggles which arise to control this valuable resource." I think that expresses the point in a clearer way, and is more idiomatic.
But the author's version is clear enough, even if sounds to me like something a native speaker probably wouldn't come up with on their own.
I'd probably go for something like "The novel can be read as an allegory for the dependence of the West on oil, and for the power struggles which arise to control this valuable resource." I think that expresses the point in a clearer way, and is more idiomatic.
But the author's version is clear enough, even if sounds to me like something a native speaker probably wouldn't come up with on their own.
Yup, I'm a monoglot. Saying something is "symbolic about" is awkward wording IMO. As is saying "dependence on the oil", instead of just "dependence on oil".
I hadn't really thought about that aspect before, but it is maybe not a coincidence that OPEC was founded in 1960 which would be around when Herbert was thinking about / researching Dune. I recently started re-reading it and IMO it still seems really fresh despite its age. A classic.
Yep. From Herbert:
> The scarce water of Dune is an exact analog of oil scarcity. CHOAM is OPEC.
(Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20080616111957/http://www.duneno...)
> The scarce water of Dune is an exact analog of oil scarcity. CHOAM is OPEC.
(Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20080616111957/http://www.duneno...)
Did you read the book?
It’s kind of hard not to at least consider the Arab and oil similarity to the fremen and spice on arrakis.
It’s kind of hard not to at least consider the Arab and oil similarity to the fremen and spice on arrakis.
That... fairly clearly is at least part of what Herbert was going for, though?
Could you elaborate?
Dune has often been interpreted as a story that contains metaphors to nodern politics such as how the spice dependence is similar to our oil dependence and undertones of how authoritarian regimes try to control the fates of peoples. A lot of the events in the books can be drawn as parallels to our history and modern day situations.
I was asking for more context on:
> Very first paragraph, and already a turn-off.
I know the context for the book’s first phrase, I wanted to know why earlier commenter considered the book’s first phrase a turn-off.
> Very first paragraph, and already a turn-off.
I know the context for the book’s first phrase, I wanted to know why earlier commenter considered the book’s first phrase a turn-off.
Why is this highly rated on HN then?!