Ask HN: Do kids drag your career down?
135 comments
Kids—I have 3—reinforce attributes that should be valuable in the workforce.
* I ruthlessly prioritize — you have to when you're balancing a family.
* I don't dwell on mistakes – milk, quite literally, is spilled on a daily basis.
* I'm a better manager – kids teach you to be clear and immediate in your feedback, not to mention more empathetic
* I speak better – reading bedtime stories means you practice public speaking every night
A company that measures performance in hours or dedication will not reward those attributes. But the good ones will happily give you flexibility in exchange for good work.
If you're struggling to find a balance, know first that you're not alone. But recognize quickly that your employment environment may be incompatible with family life, and so what's "slowing your career down" is your management... not your kids or your own performance.
* I ruthlessly prioritize — you have to when you're balancing a family.
* I don't dwell on mistakes – milk, quite literally, is spilled on a daily basis.
* I'm a better manager – kids teach you to be clear and immediate in your feedback, not to mention more empathetic
* I speak better – reading bedtime stories means you practice public speaking every night
A company that measures performance in hours or dedication will not reward those attributes. But the good ones will happily give you flexibility in exchange for good work.
If you're struggling to find a balance, know first that you're not alone. But recognize quickly that your employment environment may be incompatible with family life, and so what's "slowing your career down" is your management... not your kids or your own performance.
> If you're struggling to find a balance, know first that you're not alone. But recognize quickly that your employment environment may be incompatible with family life, and so what's "slowing your career down" is your management... not your kids or your own performance.
This may come from an already privileged position (I'm doing "well" by most standards and haven't lost my job due to the pandemic), but your relationship with your kids is for the rest of your life. If you don't get your kids right, you may need a high-flying career to pay for all their shit into the future. Get your kids right! If it affects your career, then refer to the above quoted comment, but I would also add that if your kids are slowing down your career then you have your priorities straight.
I don't always have time for my kids every single night, but I'll make up for it at opportune times. Sometimes I feel I'm not connecting with them for a week or even a month, but then a situation will come up where that connection-gap is entirely filled and then some - but you have to be aware of the situations in order to recognize the ones where you can help / step-in and make that connection.
Aside: This is something I didn't think about before having kids, didn't even cross my mind as a "thing". My kids are my reason for living. Life would be empty without them, I'd be potentially suicidal. My career exists to pay for the betterment of the kids. I could clean toilets for all I care, as long as they're on the right track.
Flipside: Bob Hawke, one of Australia's favourite Prime Ministers, is rumoured to have hushed up the rape of one of his daughters because the badly-timed controversy could potentially have slowed down his career path.
Make your choice by what suits your personality, likely somewhere between those two extremes. Not being able to sleep at night will probably drag your career down more than kids (although that's one of the early effects of having kids).
This may come from an already privileged position (I'm doing "well" by most standards and haven't lost my job due to the pandemic), but your relationship with your kids is for the rest of your life. If you don't get your kids right, you may need a high-flying career to pay for all their shit into the future. Get your kids right! If it affects your career, then refer to the above quoted comment, but I would also add that if your kids are slowing down your career then you have your priorities straight.
I don't always have time for my kids every single night, but I'll make up for it at opportune times. Sometimes I feel I'm not connecting with them for a week or even a month, but then a situation will come up where that connection-gap is entirely filled and then some - but you have to be aware of the situations in order to recognize the ones where you can help / step-in and make that connection.
Aside: This is something I didn't think about before having kids, didn't even cross my mind as a "thing". My kids are my reason for living. Life would be empty without them, I'd be potentially suicidal. My career exists to pay for the betterment of the kids. I could clean toilets for all I care, as long as they're on the right track.
Flipside: Bob Hawke, one of Australia's favourite Prime Ministers, is rumoured to have hushed up the rape of one of his daughters because the badly-timed controversy could potentially have slowed down his career path.
Make your choice by what suits your personality, likely somewhere between those two extremes. Not being able to sleep at night will probably drag your career down more than kids (although that's one of the early effects of having kids).
One of the hardest things for me pre-kids was standing up for myself. Unrealistic expectations, people with no respect for your time, meetings that stretched well past 5pm with no good reason.
Kids don't make that easier—and in fact, make it harder because you simply can't roll over and let people walk all over you. That transition was painful. And, if I'm being honest, is still hard for me.
The first time our CEO suggested we meet at 6:30pm, and I said, "Nope, I have to cook dinner and put the kids in the bath" was... terrifying.
While there are still times where my family gets the short end of the stick, I've found it to be empowering, and I think begets respect.
No one respects a doormat—kids or no, don't be one.
Kids don't make that easier—and in fact, make it harder because you simply can't roll over and let people walk all over you. That transition was painful. And, if I'm being honest, is still hard for me.
The first time our CEO suggested we meet at 6:30pm, and I said, "Nope, I have to cook dinner and put the kids in the bath" was... terrifying.
While there are still times where my family gets the short end of the stick, I've found it to be empowering, and I think begets respect.
No one respects a doormat—kids or no, don't be one.
If you have all of these attributes and have kids, you will not progress as fast as someone who has all of these attributes and no kids: they have more time, more energy, more sleep, and more money. They can afford to take more risks. Finally, they probably have an aching void in their personal life which they will try to fill with career ambition. This is all reflected in women’s pay statistics: those who wait to have kids earn more over their lifetimes.
My point is that having kids massively strengthened those attributes in me—and others I've spoken with. I wouldn't have been in the same position otherwise.
All this is to say... it's not about fast or slow. It's about different and finding what works.
And there are counter-examples, too. I worked with a guy who ran a global business unit—a couple billion dollars, probably—and had 5 kids. Might he have been even more successful had he remained childless? Maybe... who knows. He was good either way.
I volunteered with a woman who is now the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. She brought her daughter with her, and doing social good as a family was an important part of her personal and. professional life.
If you're good and driven, it doesn't matter.
All this is to say... it's not about fast or slow. It's about different and finding what works.
And there are counter-examples, too. I worked with a guy who ran a global business unit—a couple billion dollars, probably—and had 5 kids. Might he have been even more successful had he remained childless? Maybe... who knows. He was good either way.
I volunteered with a woman who is now the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. She brought her daughter with her, and doing social good as a family was an important part of her personal and. professional life.
If you're good and driven, it doesn't matter.
>If you're good and driven, it doesn't matter.
So I don't mean to be a pedantic ass here, but the "I'm a CEO and I have a wonderful home life" is probably the exception, not the rule. The reality is that you can't be a CEO on a 9-5 schedule. You probably have a lot of help for all those times you have to travel, stay late, leave early, etc. Something is going to be scarified.
That being said, you can have a successful career without becoming a CEO or running a global business unit. So it's not 100% career or 100% family.
So I don't mean to be a pedantic ass here, but the "I'm a CEO and I have a wonderful home life" is probably the exception, not the rule. The reality is that you can't be a CEO on a 9-5 schedule. You probably have a lot of help for all those times you have to travel, stay late, leave early, etc. Something is going to be scarified.
That being said, you can have a successful career without becoming a CEO or running a global business unit. So it's not 100% career or 100% family.
Absolutely true. You have to decide where your priorities are, and what you’re willing to sacrifice.
My point was the simpler one that having kids in of itself doesn’t hold you back.
My point was the simpler one that having kids in of itself doesn’t hold you back.
I strongly resent you suggesting that someone not having kids must mean they have an "aching void" in their life. Have kids if that makes you happy, but don't presume that this is what everyone's life must orbit around.
Beautifully said. I have two little ones, one came a few months ago with my current employer and I took a month of parental leave with no ill effects whatsoever. My manager and organization is incredibly respectful of my time and priorities, even more so now with the pandemic situation.
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> But recognize quickly that your employment environment may be incompatible with family life, and so what's "slowing your career down" is your management... not your kids or your own performance.
Amen
Amen
I'm going to print this out. Really well said.
Thank you for this post -- this is one of the best, most succinct, accurate commentary on parenting + work life I've read. This echoes my experience as a parent of a 2-year-old now, as someone who had been quite career-focused all my life before that; and it also serves as a good reminder of traits I should continue to strive to have.
This --> "so what's "slowing your career down" is your management... not your kids or your own performance."
Wonderfully put. As a father of three myself, I couldn't agree more.
I'm over 50 and don't have kids. It is incredibly unlikely that I ever will have kids ;-) Has it helped my career significantly? I don't think so. I know lots of people who are more successful than me in objective terms that do have kids.
Not having kids means that you get to be selfish. That's pretty much it. If you want to devote yourself completely to your job, you can. I did that for some time. It was fun for some time :-) If you want you can travel a lot. I did that too. If you want you can quit your job and live in a shack by the ocean and teach English. I did that too.
Having children is always going to be a tradeoff. It requires time, energy, focus, and huge amounts of money. It requires you to be responsible, to prioritise and above all to be selfless.
On the other hand, based on virtually everybody I know who has kids (and doesn't have other significant problems in their life), there is a pretty significant payback. If you have a child, I assume you understand that payback.
I realise that it's tempting to want it all. It seems unfair that people who prioritised other things got advantages that you don't have. Trust me, I understand that. I've lived all around the world. I've worked in many super interesting jobs. I've been able to literally say "Fuck it" and forget about money and just do what I want. But I'm never going to be able to go home and give my child a hug. Trade offs.
Not having kids means that you get to be selfish. That's pretty much it. If you want to devote yourself completely to your job, you can. I did that for some time. It was fun for some time :-) If you want you can travel a lot. I did that too. If you want you can quit your job and live in a shack by the ocean and teach English. I did that too.
Having children is always going to be a tradeoff. It requires time, energy, focus, and huge amounts of money. It requires you to be responsible, to prioritise and above all to be selfless.
On the other hand, based on virtually everybody I know who has kids (and doesn't have other significant problems in their life), there is a pretty significant payback. If you have a child, I assume you understand that payback.
I realise that it's tempting to want it all. It seems unfair that people who prioritised other things got advantages that you don't have. Trust me, I understand that. I've lived all around the world. I've worked in many super interesting jobs. I've been able to literally say "Fuck it" and forget about money and just do what I want. But I'm never going to be able to go home and give my child a hug. Trade offs.
As someone who will probably be in your shoes in some years let me congratulate you on your comment. It is honest, real, matches perfectly with my experience and it strikes a good balance between the pros and cons of having children. Many many people with or without kids have their identity too entangled to that condition and fail to recognize the delights and sorrows of the other condition.
This was one of the most sincere comments I read on HN.
Thank you for these words.
this is a powerful comment. thank you for writing this (from a father of 2)
Ever since i have had a kid, I have started asking the reverse question; Is my career dragging my parenting down?Thank you. I definitely try to strike a balance. As the primary earner, I feel there is a lot of pressure on me to deliver. It is definitely a difficult balancing act to balance being there for my family and providing for them. I look forward to this being only a few difficult years like you said.
Honestly that's the worst way to look at it. In the grand scheme of things kids are way more important than any career. Obviously kids drag your career down but ask yourself: what are you going to leave behind after you die? Will you be yet another inheritance the government gets after you die? Yet another dead SSN? Or will you leave behind something far more valuable than a mere product like 2+ living beings continuing your bloodline and thus making the world better,safer and one step closer to the future? You are a mere spec a mere nothing compared to earth... 1 out of 8 billion... You can't live forever, you can't bribe death, you can't even delay the inevitable by a lot - the best you could do is on average 10 years in pain and misery... When you are old and sick who will be there to hand you a glass of water? Who will wipe your * when you can't... Who will defend you against bad people when you are too old? Your money devalues with each day, the clock is ticking, every second passes never to be seen again you are one second closer to death and you can't bring your money to the afterlife... Kids will outlast you... Money is worth as much as people say it does.
> In the grand scheme of things kids are way more important than any career.
So, you're not a utilitarian?
> far more valuable than a mere product like 2+ living beings continuing your bloodline and thus making the world better,safer and one step closer to the future
I'm not seeing how leaving more people in the world is necessarily making it a better place. Why should it be better that way? Why should OP's offsprings be making the world a safer place? What does "one step closer to the future" even mean in this context?
The concrete negative impact of producing more humans: more consumption (even if they're non-consumptionist), more global warming, more destabilized ecosystem.
> When you are old and sick who will be there to hand you a glass of water? [...] Who will defend you against bad people when you are too old?
People often worry about securing help for their old age. Can't raise a glass of water and can't defend against bad people? Perhaps one led a good life - what issue is there with just letting go? Alan Watts said the second half of life was all about preparing to die.
Fwiw, I'm planning to have children, for my own selfish reasons. The reasons you cited don't speak to me much.
So, you're not a utilitarian?
> far more valuable than a mere product like 2+ living beings continuing your bloodline and thus making the world better,safer and one step closer to the future
I'm not seeing how leaving more people in the world is necessarily making it a better place. Why should it be better that way? Why should OP's offsprings be making the world a safer place? What does "one step closer to the future" even mean in this context?
The concrete negative impact of producing more humans: more consumption (even if they're non-consumptionist), more global warming, more destabilized ecosystem.
> When you are old and sick who will be there to hand you a glass of water? [...] Who will defend you against bad people when you are too old?
People often worry about securing help for their old age. Can't raise a glass of water and can't defend against bad people? Perhaps one led a good life - what issue is there with just letting go? Alan Watts said the second half of life was all about preparing to die.
Fwiw, I'm planning to have children, for my own selfish reasons. The reasons you cited don't speak to me much.
Having children is probably the most selfish thing we do as humans, but most people who have children spend a lot of time convincing themselves otherwise.
Yes, 100% completely. Once I had my kids, I was never as productive as I was pre-kids.
But it was completely worth it.
But it was completely worth it.
Likewise.
My perspective on life completely changed.
I am not even sure i was more productive. I certainly had more me time, coding, reading, working out. But time with my kids is beyond rewarding. I still need an income, but my image, ego, and self worth is not attached to my job or validation from my peers....now its attached to my 2 year olds whims and my ability to change a dirty diaper in 30 seconds. Flat.
My perspective on life completely changed.
I am not even sure i was more productive. I certainly had more me time, coding, reading, working out. But time with my kids is beyond rewarding. I still need an income, but my image, ego, and self worth is not attached to my job or validation from my peers....now its attached to my 2 year olds whims and my ability to change a dirty diaper in 30 seconds. Flat.
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I imagine that's productivity as measured by your career rather than productivity as a combination of work plus all responsibilities at home! Someone up-thread noted that you become more efficient out of necessity.
This.
"watch the kid" -- I think you spelled "be a parent" wrong.
I don't know where you are in your career, or what your expectation is of a career, but there are lots of companies out there where you can do interesting things, be well paid, and have time to balance your work and family life. You just need to look for it just like you were looking for a higher salary, more responsibility, or even use of a particular technology.
Asking about it at an interview may get you an answer, or rather, anything but an emphatic "yes" with some examples may be a strong negative sign. But I think the key thing is to decide what you want out of both a career and a family, and to find the job that puts you on that path.
I don't know where you are in your career, or what your expectation is of a career, but there are lots of companies out there where you can do interesting things, be well paid, and have time to balance your work and family life. You just need to look for it just like you were looking for a higher salary, more responsibility, or even use of a particular technology.
Asking about it at an interview may get you an answer, or rather, anything but an emphatic "yes" with some examples may be a strong negative sign. But I think the key thing is to decide what you want out of both a career and a family, and to find the job that puts you on that path.
The last time I had a face to face interview I actually brought my child with me. Apparently in Finland that is, if not common, at least acceptible.
(I'd quit a previous job specifically because I wanted to be a stay at home parent, but then time passed and I had to make the decision to work again.)
Later I heard the way I'd treated him in the interview was a positive thing that helped me in the interview, though to this day I can't recall what I did with him except "Please be a little quiet now, Daddy needs to talk .."
(I'd quit a previous job specifically because I wanted to be a stay at home parent, but then time passed and I had to make the decision to work again.)
Later I heard the way I'd treated him in the interview was a positive thing that helped me in the interview, though to this day I can't recall what I did with him except "Please be a little quiet now, Daddy needs to talk .."
I've thought about moving to a different company. My current company is in the top 20 best places to work in IT (computer world), although I don't know how much i trust that rating. They talk a lot about work-life balance. Do you have an example company to recommend?
I don't seek a high salary - just enough to live without fear and to someday retire. I hope to do interesting things, but I would be fine with boring tasks if I have a good work culture. It would be difficult to switch since my experience is in Neoxam and Filenet.
Thank you for your input.
I don't seek a high salary - just enough to live without fear and to someday retire. I hope to do interesting things, but I would be fine with boring tasks if I have a good work culture. It would be difficult to switch since my experience is in Neoxam and Filenet.
Thank you for your input.
Literally nowhere that is a good place to work is even listed in these rankings. It's always massive corporations that get the award for some weird PR reason.
If what you said it's true, that rating is worthless. How can be a top 20 if you get a lower rating just for taking parental leave?
That's awful. Whoever had a kid can tell you how hard is the first month. And if all goes well, the first month is hard. If you have even a little hiccup, the first month is SLEEPLESS.
That's awful. Whoever had a kid can tell you how hard is the first month. And if all goes well, the first month is hard. If you have even a little hiccup, the first month is SLEEPLESS.
They get the rating because overall it's a pretty good place and they won't tell you the real reason behind your rating - they always have a cover story. I have friends who are managers. They've told me things they shouldn't tell an employee. For example, if a manager picks someone for the highest rating, some departments require the manager to give someone a below average rating to "balance it out", even if they don't deserve it.
That's a terrible company you are describing...
They are good on paper. So unless you're one of the 3-5% getting screwed (and realize it)... They offer 6 weeks paid parental leave, upto 14% 401k, $100 extra per month for 5 years to pay off student loans, profit sharing, 100% grad school tuition, 1 VTO day, outcomes based evaluations (so they say), and pay for performance (so they say).
Sorry, I don't have any specific places to recommend since it's going to be very regional and vertical specific. I don't know those two particular pieces of software, but try to sell yourself less as a "neoxam expert" and more "expert in solving the business problem that Neoxam does", and focus on your accomplishments there.
I have a dim view of any "best place to work" rankings ever since I worked at one and realized that people generally pay to be on those and the numbers are juiced when HR sends emails out suggesting everyone give the company a glowing review.
And don't forget to enjoy parenthood. There are hard times, and there are great times (often concurrently). You've got a limited amount of time to enjoy the experience and to guide them to be the people this world needs. Good luck!
I have a dim view of any "best place to work" rankings ever since I worked at one and realized that people generally pay to be on those and the numbers are juiced when HR sends emails out suggesting everyone give the company a glowing review.
And don't forget to enjoy parenthood. There are hard times, and there are great times (often concurrently). You've got a limited amount of time to enjoy the experience and to guide them to be the people this world needs. Good luck!
Having kids (3 so far, 3, 5, and 7) helps me prioritize my time better. Before getting married and having kids, I was all over the place, had poor routines and probably some unhealthy habits in terms of diet and sleep. Having other people depend on you changes your priorities quickly.
Also, it's very difficult at times, but incredibly rewarding, more so than even the best programming highs I've had, when you can see a new thing one of your kids learned, and realize you were part of that.
Their imagination also keeps my brain a bit more flexible, especially as I try to join in their own crazy fun. And being able to act more like a kid with them also keeps me loose and a little crazy, which helps me to be more positive and, maybe, 'chipper', in my interactions with workmates. At least I think so.
Again, there are very difficult times as a parent. But the highs are so much higher when they come, and I would not trade it for being back in the bachelor mentality and spending more of my live donating overtime to a corporation (though there are some very positive things from that part of my life too, and I have some friends who would probably not thrive as parents!).
Also, it's very difficult at times, but incredibly rewarding, more so than even the best programming highs I've had, when you can see a new thing one of your kids learned, and realize you were part of that.
Their imagination also keeps my brain a bit more flexible, especially as I try to join in their own crazy fun. And being able to act more like a kid with them also keeps me loose and a little crazy, which helps me to be more positive and, maybe, 'chipper', in my interactions with workmates. At least I think so.
Again, there are very difficult times as a parent. But the highs are so much higher when they come, and I would not trade it for being back in the bachelor mentality and spending more of my live donating overtime to a corporation (though there are some very positive things from that part of my life too, and I have some friends who would probably not thrive as parents!).
Your career isn't necessarily your job. If you work somewhere where they judge you for having kids then it might be best to move on. Do they judge people with hobbies, pets or drinking habits a similar way? The only time that is an issue is in industries where you genuinely need to work a lot of hours, which are few. Trading desk, pilot or surgeon springs to mind.
Also if a company requires you to do 60 hours of coding instead of 40 and it's just JIRA tasks adding feature X Y Z then those extra 20 hours don't help your career at all, but if you did a 40 hour job and spent 10 hours learning carefully selected skills in your spare time that would help your career a lot over time.
Also if a company requires you to do 60 hours of coding instead of 40 and it's just JIRA tasks adding feature X Y Z then those extra 20 hours don't help your career at all, but if you did a 40 hour job and spent 10 hours learning carefully selected skills in your spare time that would help your career a lot over time.
>"If you work somewhere where they judge you for having kids then it might be best to move on."
For many, this may be viewed as a fairly privileged statement. Particularly with Great Depression-level unemployment, simply "moving on" isn't really an option for many (most?).
For many, this may be viewed as a fairly privileged statement. Particularly with Great Depression-level unemployment, simply "moving on" isn't really an option for many (most?).
True. I don't mean it to come out that way. However even if it is privileged, it is sage advice to keep yourself as employable as possible at all times, keep an eye on the market, what skills and interview questions you need to nail, etc.
Not for me. It's turbocharged my career. It helps that I'm at the level where management isn't seeing my contribution as hours in a chair. Having kids gave me something in common with all of our senior management. Anecdotally, that improved relationship has been a hell of a boost for my career success.
It certainly will depend on your individual situation. If your management is all childless workaholics, I can see how it would totally count against you.
It certainly will depend on your individual situation. If your management is all childless workaholics, I can see how it would totally count against you.
Having something in common is good. Managers are expected to work 9.5 hours per day and be available 24/7 to recieve calls/texts/emails on their phones. So even if they have kids, they need to put in 50 hours a week, which isn't too bad I guess.
Agree completely.
In my experience, once I moved in with someone that had kids and I started talking about family at work, it seamed like I got bigger raises and better promotions. Whereas pre-family, I was seen as "just a kid, a smart one, but still just a kid". After I was treated as an adult.
I partially felt the same, but you also go into negotiations with a lot more knowledge about life cost. Kids cost money. Daycare costs money. A car costs money. And you suddenly realize that your paycheck needs to cover a lot more than what it had to before. I felt much more comfortable asking for a higher salary, just because I knew I had a family to feed and not just me.
What's interesting is that I have observed the opposite in my career. I have often seen that employees who have children are afforded more flexibility, shorter hours, and less work than those who do not have children. While I understand these are necessary if you have children, a disproportionate amount of work and higher expectations are given to those without children in my office. For example, if you have a child, that is a perfectly acceptable reason to work from home, but simply wanting to work remotely is not accepted. Do I need to have a child to work from home (especially because I can't have children...lol)? Anyway, this is obviously not a universal experience across companies (and trust me I'm happy that parents have these perks at my company), but I do find it frustrating when someone is expected to stay at the office until midnight because "what else would they do" if they don't have children lol. Basically, everyone should have less work, more flexible schedules, and realistic expectations given to them regardless of their personal life.
I suspect one big difference is that when you have young children is that you can't bend on "No, I can't work." When you don't have young children you can bend (even if you don't want to), and you say "No" but do "Maybe."
I've seen this with people before they have kids and after the kids are a little older. They occasionally bend and work a bit extra, check emails after hours, etc, and then before you know the it the manager expects this person is available since they did it before.
Sadly, at one company where I worked the young single person had to lie and say they were heavily involved with educational activities at their church and they couldn't work extended hours because of that. I know they were not 100% honest about the hours required for that, but management needed some mental excuse to say it's okay for them to just work normal hours. It's stupid, but sometimes that's the only way to do it.
I've seen this with people before they have kids and after the kids are a little older. They occasionally bend and work a bit extra, check emails after hours, etc, and then before you know the it the manager expects this person is available since they did it before.
Sadly, at one company where I worked the young single person had to lie and say they were heavily involved with educational activities at their church and they couldn't work extended hours because of that. I know they were not 100% honest about the hours required for that, but management needed some mental excuse to say it's okay for them to just work normal hours. It's stupid, but sometimes that's the only way to do it.
Along similar lines, people with kids are less likely to be fired.
Ask any manager who's had to do a big layoff. They'll bend over backwards to shield those who have families to feed. Often time single people will be laid off first despite being much more competent than the father of four.
This creates a secondary emergent effect where family men build up more impressive resumes than singles who are viewed as disposable and less likely to weather downturns.
Ask any manager who's had to do a big layoff. They'll bend over backwards to shield those who have families to feed. Often time single people will be laid off first despite being much more competent than the father of four.
This creates a secondary emergent effect where family men build up more impressive resumes than singles who are viewed as disposable and less likely to weather downturns.
I used to get really worked up early in my career trying to win the ratings game. When I got older I began to question the concept of the career, ironically when I finally started ‘winning’ at it.
1. Ratings and promotions within a job/company are boss personality and politically dependent and typically very unfair. Lots of hard work goes unrewarded.
2. Even if you do get lucky and get a promotion, your prize is 5-10% salary bump (maybe) and more work, stress and meetings (I don’t much enjoy meetings myself). Look closely at most big company executives and think if you really want the job for more than the social prestige/ego. They travel a ton and are always in meetings, it gets old.
3. So if the executive jobs are undesirable, then climb the ladder for money? It takes allot of money to make a difference, I.e you need $500k in the bank to ek out approx $1500 a month in cash flow at 4%. If you making $100k annually or $150k annually, $200k, or even $250 its still going to take over a decade to save a decent amount of money. The 5-10% salary bump doesn’t make much difference.
So why a career? There are likely more efficient ways to make money if that’s your goal. Starting a business, blogging, consulting, etc may have more risk but the ceiling is uncapped unlike a ‘career’. So why sacrifice something wonderful like time with your child? Money? Ego? You want a great LinkedIn profile one day? If given the option tomorrow, I would max my parental leave unless it impacted teammates in a negative way.
I would genuinely be interested if this is a minority sentiment?
1. Ratings and promotions within a job/company are boss personality and politically dependent and typically very unfair. Lots of hard work goes unrewarded.
2. Even if you do get lucky and get a promotion, your prize is 5-10% salary bump (maybe) and more work, stress and meetings (I don’t much enjoy meetings myself). Look closely at most big company executives and think if you really want the job for more than the social prestige/ego. They travel a ton and are always in meetings, it gets old.
3. So if the executive jobs are undesirable, then climb the ladder for money? It takes allot of money to make a difference, I.e you need $500k in the bank to ek out approx $1500 a month in cash flow at 4%. If you making $100k annually or $150k annually, $200k, or even $250 its still going to take over a decade to save a decent amount of money. The 5-10% salary bump doesn’t make much difference.
So why a career? There are likely more efficient ways to make money if that’s your goal. Starting a business, blogging, consulting, etc may have more risk but the ceiling is uncapped unlike a ‘career’. So why sacrifice something wonderful like time with your child? Money? Ego? You want a great LinkedIn profile one day? If given the option tomorrow, I would max my parental leave unless it impacted teammates in a negative way.
I would genuinely be interested if this is a minority sentiment?
I don't plan on having kids, but as someone early in my career, I can agree with the sentiment.
I haven't even experienced the unfairness mentioned in many comments, but I just don't see the need to focus on climbing a work ladder at the cost of things socially or personally. As long as I do my work and enjoy it, a promotion is nice (I'm not giving up or being complacent necessarily) but it's simply not a big motivating factor in my life. I would/will happily slow my career trajectory if it means getting more time with close friends, romantic considerations, etc.
I think I'm in this boat because my career and interests are pretty orthogonal, where I think the HN community self selects for people who define some or much of their personality from technological pursuits that can often tie back heavily to work. When your work is more than your work, I think this question almost rephrases itself to be self vs kid, which I can understand struggling with.
I haven't even experienced the unfairness mentioned in many comments, but I just don't see the need to focus on climbing a work ladder at the cost of things socially or personally. As long as I do my work and enjoy it, a promotion is nice (I'm not giving up or being complacent necessarily) but it's simply not a big motivating factor in my life. I would/will happily slow my career trajectory if it means getting more time with close friends, romantic considerations, etc.
I think I'm in this boat because my career and interests are pretty orthogonal, where I think the HN community self selects for people who define some or much of their personality from technological pursuits that can often tie back heavily to work. When your work is more than your work, I think this question almost rephrases itself to be self vs kid, which I can understand struggling with.
I think you're more pointing to the fact that most 'raises' are joke tier. The word 'raise' in and of itself generally refers to an ~inflation bump.
5% per year is practically nothing. There is no point in my life at which I would have ever even noticed the difference other than on a spreadsheet, all the way up from a corner shop minimum wage job.
I think the reason most people push is for those lateral changes when you break into a different "role" and double your salary, change your working hours/respect, etc, because that's a material difference.
5% per year is practically nothing. There is no point in my life at which I would have ever even noticed the difference other than on a spreadsheet, all the way up from a corner shop minimum wage job.
I think the reason most people push is for those lateral changes when you break into a different "role" and double your salary, change your working hours/respect, etc, because that's a material difference.
I grew up with an inbuilt skepticism of hierarchy, authority and work structures. School required tremendous effort to stay on track despite the material being achievable.
Honestly can't say I'll ever enjoy a 'career' where one is plugged into a corporate tree. Been there, done that. I took a small business course a few years ago. The teachers there left a job they had been in for decades to start business, tried it and didn't like it. They then took a job (they call it a 'business') teaching others how to start small businesses. Found it very hard to take them seriously when they had little practical knowledge or experience, despite the reams of information they had collected from others. Some people just aren't wired to be separate from the great corporate tree.
I think too many people sign up to a career simply because it's safe and you don't have to think too much about long term goals. There are of course other virtues to those jobs, but people who are going to hate their job for the rest of their life and underachieve should probably move on out to the less-sheltered world.
Honestly can't say I'll ever enjoy a 'career' where one is plugged into a corporate tree. Been there, done that. I took a small business course a few years ago. The teachers there left a job they had been in for decades to start business, tried it and didn't like it. They then took a job (they call it a 'business') teaching others how to start small businesses. Found it very hard to take them seriously when they had little practical knowledge or experience, despite the reams of information they had collected from others. Some people just aren't wired to be separate from the great corporate tree.
I think too many people sign up to a career simply because it's safe and you don't have to think too much about long term goals. There are of course other virtues to those jobs, but people who are going to hate their job for the rest of their life and underachieve should probably move on out to the less-sheltered world.
I couldn't have said #1 any better myself. I realized #1 and #2 a couple of years ago. I don't want an executive job. I would enjoy the strategy but hate the political.
I agree that the 7-10% bump is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. But I have done jobs (and done them well) that were a level above me, such as tech lead, senior dev, and ASC (I'm a mid-level dev). It would be nice to be paid commensurate with the stress. Plus I would love to use that money, even though it wouldn't be much, to save for my kid's education.
I do have a business, but it's just for selling honey. I also try to make money trading the market, but that has only small payouts because I don't have much capital to risk.
Thank you for your input.
I agree that the 7-10% bump is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. But I have done jobs (and done them well) that were a level above me, such as tech lead, senior dev, and ASC (I'm a mid-level dev). It would be nice to be paid commensurate with the stress. Plus I would love to use that money, even though it wouldn't be much, to save for my kid's education.
I do have a business, but it's just for selling honey. I also try to make money trading the market, but that has only small payouts because I don't have much capital to risk.
Thank you for your input.
> Less hours means less dedication in the eyes of management.
You need to change jobs. I work for a fortune 100 company that is extremely supportive of kids and families. They don’t just talk the talk, but they actually walk the walk.
You need to change jobs. I work for a fortune 100 company that is extremely supportive of kids and families. They don’t just talk the talk, but they actually walk the walk.
I work at a company in the top 20 IT best places to work. Your statement sounds almost like their's. I feel like I can't switch due to lack of experience, and of course the current market downturn.
Yes, kids take time. Lots of time. So if you believe that more time at a work is better, and that it's a zero-sum game (i.e., time with children will take away from time at work), then yes, having children will be bad for your career.
But there's a ton wrong with that thinking.
First: Exercise takes time away from work. Vacations take time away from work. Sleeping takes time away from work. And yet, even the most die-hard workers realize that they have to exercise, take vacations, and sleep. And that doing so makes them better people, healthier and more well-adjusted. And even better able to do their jobs.
I can't speak for everyone, but I've found that my children -- now 19, 17, and 14 -- have not been distractions from work, but complements to it. They have helped me to find insights, to understand myself and the world, and to generally be a better person.
Second: It's possible to make lots of money and have a great career with children. It's also possible to do so without children. So it's not an either/or situation. Yes, you'll have to prioritize. Yes, you'll be frustrated sometimes that you can't finish a work project because the kids need you. But it also gives you some perspective, understanding that even if your project is delayed by a day, that's OK.
Third: There's no doubt that children can be maddening, frustrating, and time consuming. Especially when they're young, they demand lots of attention. But in my case, all of that frustration was easily counterbalanced by the joy, excitement, and fulfillment that comes from having children, speaking with them, and learning from them.
Finally: If your job means that you have to dedicate yourself to it, to the exclusion of everything else, is that really a job you want? If your company doesn't encourage you to take time with your family, or for yourself, what sorts of people are working there, and do you really want to be working there?
I don't know if I would be a worse consultant, trainer, and developer without my children. I would be a different one, though. And given how happy and successful I am now in my personal and work lives, I wouldn't want to be that other person.
But there's a ton wrong with that thinking.
First: Exercise takes time away from work. Vacations take time away from work. Sleeping takes time away from work. And yet, even the most die-hard workers realize that they have to exercise, take vacations, and sleep. And that doing so makes them better people, healthier and more well-adjusted. And even better able to do their jobs.
I can't speak for everyone, but I've found that my children -- now 19, 17, and 14 -- have not been distractions from work, but complements to it. They have helped me to find insights, to understand myself and the world, and to generally be a better person.
Second: It's possible to make lots of money and have a great career with children. It's also possible to do so without children. So it's not an either/or situation. Yes, you'll have to prioritize. Yes, you'll be frustrated sometimes that you can't finish a work project because the kids need you. But it also gives you some perspective, understanding that even if your project is delayed by a day, that's OK.
Third: There's no doubt that children can be maddening, frustrating, and time consuming. Especially when they're young, they demand lots of attention. But in my case, all of that frustration was easily counterbalanced by the joy, excitement, and fulfillment that comes from having children, speaking with them, and learning from them.
Finally: If your job means that you have to dedicate yourself to it, to the exclusion of everything else, is that really a job you want? If your company doesn't encourage you to take time with your family, or for yourself, what sorts of people are working there, and do you really want to be working there?
I don't know if I would be a worse consultant, trainer, and developer without my children. I would be a different one, though. And given how happy and successful I am now in my personal and work lives, I wouldn't want to be that other person.
>Yes, kids take time. Lots of time. So if you believe that more time at a work is better, and that it's a zero-sum game (i.e., time with children will take away from time at work), then yes, having children will be bad for your career.
>There's no doubt that children can be maddening, frustrating, and time consuming. Especially when they're young, they demand lots of attention. But in my case, all of that frustration was easily counterbalanced by the joy, excitement, and fulfillment that comes from having children, speaking with them, and learning from them.
All of the above!
One way I try to think about this is by looking at all the people I've worked with who are at the top of the ladder. CxO, EVPx, GM, etc. The vast majority of them work crazy hours, travel all the time, are constantly attached to their email, etc. They only way for them to do that is to sacrifice time with their families and have a partner who basically does all the family stuff.
If that's what you want AND you want to spend lots of time with your kids, then kids are going to be an impediment to that. If that's not what you want, then I think it's question of finding a balance between what you want out of your career and life. Most certainly if your kids are very young and you want to spend time with them, your career might move a little slower.
>There's no doubt that children can be maddening, frustrating, and time consuming. Especially when they're young, they demand lots of attention. But in my case, all of that frustration was easily counterbalanced by the joy, excitement, and fulfillment that comes from having children, speaking with them, and learning from them.
All of the above!
One way I try to think about this is by looking at all the people I've worked with who are at the top of the ladder. CxO, EVPx, GM, etc. The vast majority of them work crazy hours, travel all the time, are constantly attached to their email, etc. They only way for them to do that is to sacrifice time with their families and have a partner who basically does all the family stuff.
If that's what you want AND you want to spend lots of time with your kids, then kids are going to be an impediment to that. If that's not what you want, then I think it's question of finding a balance between what you want out of your career and life. Most certainly if your kids are very young and you want to spend time with them, your career might move a little slower.
No. Well... no. My first kid was born in 2006. I left a big 4 accounting firm after an acquisition in '10. Tried to do a start up with a friend... Health food delivery in Oakland in 2010, without any connection to any of the big VCs. Failed. Second kid was born the fall of '10, third in Winter '13.
Looking at raw income numbers, I was making 85k in '06, 75k in '10 (had to find a job quickly after the startup failed - insurance needed for the child birth!) and around 95k in '13. I'm making around 280k right now, so I think I'm on track regardless of having kids or not. A key to my income is that once I stopped working in an office and got rid of my ~75 minute one way commute, I started a part time job, remote software development. That was project based, not raw hours, and since then my primary job has also changed to project based, not raw hours. I'm not killing myself each week like a lot of stories I hear. On a real busy week I'll do about 50 to 55 hours.
Now, another measure to consider, I have coached little league for about 5 years, travel softball for 2.5. My busiest season was fall '19 where I coached little league, ran the LL skill building clinic, head coached a travel team (10u) and assistant coached my older daughters 14u team.
I'm starting jiu-jitsu next week with my son. I've reduced the amount of coaching down to just two teams total. No head coaching.
My advice: prolab caffeine pills!
Looking at raw income numbers, I was making 85k in '06, 75k in '10 (had to find a job quickly after the startup failed - insurance needed for the child birth!) and around 95k in '13. I'm making around 280k right now, so I think I'm on track regardless of having kids or not. A key to my income is that once I stopped working in an office and got rid of my ~75 minute one way commute, I started a part time job, remote software development. That was project based, not raw hours, and since then my primary job has also changed to project based, not raw hours. I'm not killing myself each week like a lot of stories I hear. On a real busy week I'll do about 50 to 55 hours.
Now, another measure to consider, I have coached little league for about 5 years, travel softball for 2.5. My busiest season was fall '19 where I coached little league, ran the LL skill building clinic, head coached a travel team (10u) and assistant coached my older daughters 14u team.
I'm starting jiu-jitsu next week with my son. I've reduced the amount of coaching down to just two teams total. No head coaching.
My advice: prolab caffeine pills!
That's impressive. My company views success/dedication as hours spent instead of value delivered. I'm glad it's working for you.
This may be a silly question, but what benefits do you find in caffeine pills over just having a cup of coffee?
Efficiency. Cost if you are buying coffee. 200mg each. Split them as needed.
It seems like a kid should be more important than being the best worker imo. Seems like sensible priorities. I don't have a kid though.
I just want to support my kid. It would also be nice to someday retire from the job I hate.
I'm the CTO of a small company (about a dozen people), and I don't know that my career has been hurt, but I've certainly had to reprioritize. Doing dev work, where the occasional task can take 30m to 30h, and you have to be focused for hours on end, is less practical when you have to rush out for daycare pickup, have a toddler jumping on you, or try to work during nap time which often ends earlier than you'd like. Consequently I find myself doing a lot more business development, product planning and people management. I still write some code, even if it's often more efficient to delegate. I like to keep my skills up to date and to not become slowly ignorant of my own company (a problem I've seen plenty of times before).
One way it's helped, is it's a really easy topic to bring up with clients or on sales calls. It makes me more relatable, and gives a good first impression since people assume I'm at least competent enough to provide basic care to a child.
One way it's helped, is it's a really easy topic to bring up with clients or on sales calls. It makes me more relatable, and gives a good first impression since people assume I'm at least competent enough to provide basic care to a child.
> gives a good first impression since people assume I'm at least competent enough to provide basic care to a child.
This made me laugh. Impostor syndrome much?
This made me laugh. Impostor syndrome much?
Being a parent helps build a skill set that can help you level up your career - if your employer values them. It can also make you less interested in that advancement. My own anecdote:
I have two kids (3 and 1). I’ve experienced a bit of a leap in soft skills; empathy, mentorship, and patience, to name a few. This has corresponded with me taking on many more leadership responsibilities in my team, and being recognized as a go-to thought partner and interestingly as an authority on technical matters.
I took 6 months of parental leave for the second child (I know, incredibly generous). I came back and received an “exceeds expectations rating”.
I have colleagues who are also parents. Several of them are “staff engineers”, the highest level of recognition at our company.
On the other hand, I turned down a promotion as I felt I’m already giving all I have time for/didn’t have bandwidth for the extra responsibilities. I’m happy with my current compensation and responsibility set, especially as it allows me to spend time with my family.
I have two kids (3 and 1). I’ve experienced a bit of a leap in soft skills; empathy, mentorship, and patience, to name a few. This has corresponded with me taking on many more leadership responsibilities in my team, and being recognized as a go-to thought partner and interestingly as an authority on technical matters.
I took 6 months of parental leave for the second child (I know, incredibly generous). I came back and received an “exceeds expectations rating”.
I have colleagues who are also parents. Several of them are “staff engineers”, the highest level of recognition at our company.
On the other hand, I turned down a promotion as I felt I’m already giving all I have time for/didn’t have bandwidth for the extra responsibilities. I’m happy with my current compensation and responsibility set, especially as it allows me to spend time with my family.
Wow, they offer you promotions? My company makes you apply for all except the entry level to mid level jump.
But for kids, what is the point of a career?
Perhaps my POV is old-fashioned, but real honestly, the only reason I went to school, obtained a professional degree, and made fat stacks of Benjamins was to get a good wife (and then kids, etc.)
If that was not my plan, I would have lived in a shack on the beach and smoked dope all day.
Perhaps my POV is old-fashioned, but real honestly, the only reason I went to school, obtained a professional degree, and made fat stacks of Benjamins was to get a good wife (and then kids, etc.)
If that was not my plan, I would have lived in a shack on the beach and smoked dope all day.
who gives a fuck about making the man money. Enjoy your life, nobody who matters gives a shit about your job title.
I think too many people are obsessed with making "all of the money", when just "some of the money" leads to a better lifestyle.
That being said: People with kids get fired much more rarely, tend to get the promotions, have much more understanding around missing work, and parents tend to watch out for eachother.
I think too many people are obsessed with making "all of the money", when just "some of the money" leads to a better lifestyle.
That being said: People with kids get fired much more rarely, tend to get the promotions, have much more understanding around missing work, and parents tend to watch out for eachother.
I'm still somewhat early in my career. I have 2 toddlers.
I don't know how others perceive me but I know I'm not able to give nearly as much to work as I would without kids. When I last interviewed for jobs, I was asked about my side projects. I made the joke, "I have kids, they are my side project, haha," and I think he understood.
This is in the short-term though. I suspect that long-term my career will be better than it would've been without kids b/c I think I will be overall happier with kids than without, and I'll be forced to make better life choices like go to bed on time, etc. To be clear I didn't have children so my career would be better :D
I don't know how others perceive me but I know I'm not able to give nearly as much to work as I would without kids. When I last interviewed for jobs, I was asked about my side projects. I made the joke, "I have kids, they are my side project, haha," and I think he understood.
This is in the short-term though. I suspect that long-term my career will be better than it would've been without kids b/c I think I will be overall happier with kids than without, and I'll be forced to make better life choices like go to bed on time, etc. To be clear I didn't have children so my career would be better :D
I have a 1yr old and a 2yr old. I definitely struggle to find a balance some days because the kids are super needy and I always want to go heads down at my job. Perhaps if I worked out of the house I may be writing something different now.
When you start the actual construction of a structure you may begin to fret that the amount of time you are able to devote to erecting the scaffolding around it is now in decline.
This is by design. The structure was always the goal.
This is by design. The structure was always the goal.
If a manager told you that parental leave means lower rating, that's a clear signal the company doesn't value families.
With everything that is involved in growing a kid (teaching, empathy, learn to talk in the most simple and direct way), I would be surprised if you are not actually improving. All those interpersonal skills are growing, they might not match directly to your job (e.g. Coding), but will make you a lot more valuable. I am father of a 2 years old and my mentoring skills increased dramatically since I got her.
With everything that is involved in growing a kid (teaching, empathy, learn to talk in the most simple and direct way), I would be surprised if you are not actually improving. All those interpersonal skills are growing, they might not match directly to your job (e.g. Coding), but will make you a lot more valuable. I am father of a 2 years old and my mentoring skills increased dramatically since I got her.
Actually of OP can get it in writing that parental leave = lower rating, and parental leave was taken under FMLA...that's illegal.
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/77b-fmla-protec...
"An employer is prohibited from discriminating or retaliating against an employee or prospective employee for having exercised or attempted to exercise any FMLA right. "
I know of a manager at my company dumb enough to put it in an annual review...needless to say, there's a lawsuit and said manager is no longer w/ the company.
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/77b-fmla-protec...
"An employer is prohibited from discriminating or retaliating against an employee or prospective employee for having exercised or attempted to exercise any FMLA right. "
I know of a manager at my company dumb enough to put it in an annual review...needless to say, there's a lawsuit and said manager is no longer w/ the company.
I got that information from a friend who wasn't even supposed to tell me. I wouldn't jeopardize them. They didn't say it necessarily means a lower rating. It's that they will compare you apples to apples with the output of your colleagues who did not take leave. If you took 6 weeks of paid parental leave, then your story point count will be about 15% lower than theirs.
I thought that, but I also thought it would be borderline impossible to prove.
The greatest joys, rewards, and challenges in life (growth opportunities) come from family (including extended family where possible). (Plus that it simply doesn't look like a good prospect to rely only on government strangers to take care of us when we are old! We can be good to our nieces/nephews too, and others of course.)
In my belief system, these important, challenging, and joyful relationships can extend into eternity as well, if we choose to make the necessary commitments (specific covenants with God) and keep them, learning and improving throughout our lifetimes. Money is like nothing, in comparison.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/the-family-...
https://www.comeuntochrist.org/beliefs/family
(more at my own web site, linked from my profile, or http://lukecall.net )
In my belief system, these important, challenging, and joyful relationships can extend into eternity as well, if we choose to make the necessary commitments (specific covenants with God) and keep them, learning and improving throughout our lifetimes. Money is like nothing, in comparison.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/the-family-...
https://www.comeuntochrist.org/beliefs/family
(more at my own web site, linked from my profile, or http://lukecall.net )
I would not obsess about your employer's rating too much. Look at the economic perspective. I did this as an economic analysis some time ago for myself. (It was not kids, but another commitment in my case.) Your employer is a just a customer for your services. A lot of people forget that not only has the employment relationship to be beneficial to your employer, it has to be profitable to you as well. And profitability in your case, is not just the net money you make from the job. It is also the hedonic value you derive from NOT working, but instead spending that time with your kids. And the value of that you will find is very large. Not only will you derive enjoyment from the hours actually spent with them, you will be setting up the kids to have a happy healthy and productive life in the future and a having a great relationship with you. The economic value of helping raise a successful, well-adjusted adult is very very large. Compare that with the economic value of a slightly better rating. Even in economic terms, paying attention to your kids should be a no brainer.
It seems that half your question is about experience, and half is indirectly asking for advice. So, experience:
My experience is the opposite. Since having kids, I have been ruthless about changing jobs as needed, standing up for what I need, and getting a lot more money on each career move. I was much more lax on these matters before, and would spend countless hours on pointless drivel. I still spend hours on drivel, but I count every hour! As others have noted, having kids makes you question the value of your time and forces you to be much more efficient.
Advice: Value yourself more than your managers value you, present yourself with confidence backed by experience and knowledge, and your career prospects are wide open.
Also, I mean this in all seriousness, read "Getting to Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In" by Roger Fisher and William Ury. Its advice contributed the most money directly to my bank account of any book I have ever read, followed by "The Richest Man in Babylon," another good book. (Getting to Yes to increase my income, Babylon to decrease my spending and increase my savings.)
My experience is the opposite. Since having kids, I have been ruthless about changing jobs as needed, standing up for what I need, and getting a lot more money on each career move. I was much more lax on these matters before, and would spend countless hours on pointless drivel. I still spend hours on drivel, but I count every hour! As others have noted, having kids makes you question the value of your time and forces you to be much more efficient.
Advice: Value yourself more than your managers value you, present yourself with confidence backed by experience and knowledge, and your career prospects are wide open.
Also, I mean this in all seriousness, read "Getting to Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In" by Roger Fisher and William Ury. Its advice contributed the most money directly to my bank account of any book I have ever read, followed by "The Richest Man in Babylon," another good book. (Getting to Yes to increase my income, Babylon to decrease my spending and increase my savings.)
Thanks! I read that book and "Exactly What to Say". I found them both interesting but the individual managers at my company have little power. The rating and compensation is done at a meeting of all the managers in a the department. So I can make my case to my manager, but I have no real representation at that meeting.
This is totally anecdotal, but I’ve seen coworkers have kids with a partner who stayed home and their careers seemed to take off but people who coparent and both work it seems to take some of the wind of their sails. I feel like me not being a parent, especially during this pandemic, comes with the expectation that i will work more, which i honestly have zero interest in doing.
One thing I haven't seen in the comments just yet : YMMV largely depending on which country (and company) you're in.
I used to live in France (and my brother still lives there) and long hours are kind of expected. I now live in the Netherlands and we actually _almost_ got in trouble with the daycare for bringing our kid there 5 times a week because we were both working full time. Most people I know (agreed, as engineers we are privileged) work 4 days a week and won't do over time.
If you ask me, that makes a lot of sense. I get done in 8 hours what I used to do in 10. And next to that I have a life.
In any case, don't let anyone make you feel bad for having kids. They're much better than any career you can dream and don't let 'management' take that away from you.
I used to live in France (and my brother still lives there) and long hours are kind of expected. I now live in the Netherlands and we actually _almost_ got in trouble with the daycare for bringing our kid there 5 times a week because we were both working full time. Most people I know (agreed, as engineers we are privileged) work 4 days a week and won't do over time.
If you ask me, that makes a lot of sense. I get done in 8 hours what I used to do in 10. And next to that I have a life.
In any case, don't let anyone make you feel bad for having kids. They're much better than any career you can dream and don't let 'management' take that away from you.
I was a long time soldier with many kids and it ended up my wife (sort of) asking me to choose between work and family. My opinion: if Your work is anything dependable, You have to neglect family to be good at work. If Your job is anything regular, "family and career" can be done really nice.
Doing more stuff means you have less time for work. If you really like work and want to spend all your time doing it why have kids, pets, relationships, hobbies..?
In my case having children has made me more interested in my career. I need to provide for them and set a good example to an extent. Previously my focus was on whitewater kayaking, spending time with friends and travelling. I can't really do those things now anyway so it makes sense to spend more time on my career, but while the children are awake and I'm there I prioritize them.
You may want to think about the kind of companies you work for. If everyone else in your company has kids and family responsibility their priorities will be more aligned to yours. I found this out to my cost and would be unlikely to work with a small focused start up in the near future.
In my case having children has made me more interested in my career. I need to provide for them and set a good example to an extent. Previously my focus was on whitewater kayaking, spending time with friends and travelling. I can't really do those things now anyway so it makes sense to spend more time on my career, but while the children are awake and I'm there I prioritize them.
You may want to think about the kind of companies you work for. If everyone else in your company has kids and family responsibility their priorities will be more aligned to yours. I found this out to my cost and would be unlikely to work with a small focused start up in the near future.
> Less hours means less dedication in the eyes of management.
In the eyes of bad management, yes. In the eyes of good management, quite the opposite. If you are spending more time working then what's expected to get your job done, my concern is what happens when you 1) leave or 2) burn out. I'd rather have you spend your time doing what your job and then relaxing and not burning out then burning out or leaving. Reliability is key here.
This is also a problem if they leave, because it sets a false perception of what can be done in a normal work week.
Not to mention the actual quality of the work long term. Basically, everything I've ever seen of excessive hours per week results in long term losses.
In the eyes of bad management, yes. In the eyes of good management, quite the opposite. If you are spending more time working then what's expected to get your job done, my concern is what happens when you 1) leave or 2) burn out. I'd rather have you spend your time doing what your job and then relaxing and not burning out then burning out or leaving. Reliability is key here.
This is also a problem if they leave, because it sets a false perception of what can be done in a normal work week.
Not to mention the actual quality of the work long term. Basically, everything I've ever seen of excessive hours per week results in long term losses.
Yes. Without question.
It's worth it. It forces you to shift what you care about, and career path is one of those things you have to think differently about. That's also worthy of having kids.
To get where you want to go you often have to go where you don't want to go.
It's worth it. It forces you to shift what you care about, and career path is one of those things you have to think differently about. That's also worthy of having kids.
To get where you want to go you often have to go where you don't want to go.
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I would recommend using this period to create a good bond with your kid. While taking parental leave and having absence have negative impact on your management, you can switch jobs and all is forgotten.
The short answer is no, they don't drag your career down. But they give you a reason to re-prioritize how you invest your time in a way you've probably never had to before.
It can take a couple of years as a new parent to adjust. Every person and every family will have different needs and approach the transition in a different way.
If the management at your company doesn't value your family then the question is really whether or not you agree with them. Is your family worth it?
It can take a couple of years as a new parent to adjust. Every person and every family will have different needs and approach the transition in a different way.
If the management at your company doesn't value your family then the question is really whether or not you agree with them. Is your family worth it?
I work at Google and usually taking parental leave or even simple paid time-off are not supposed to be penalized. Come performance review season, if you've been absent for 4 out of 6 months in that review cycle, you are usually prorated and evaluated for the 2 months you’ve been around as if that work has sustained for the whole cycle. How much of this we can prove (that it doesn't impact ratings or promotions)? Probably not a lot. You’ll find that no company is willing to share that data to save their bacon.
Wow, that's awesome if they follow it. I know my company doesn't.
At the places where I worked, the people who pushed and shoved to get into the higher paying jobs, or changed jobs for more money, without exception, all had kids. So there's a tradeoff. You will have less spare time, but possibly more economic motivation and career focus. But you might have to find a job where you are not measured by hours in front of a screen. That might ultimately be a good thing anyway.
I have been promoted regularly since becoming a parent.
I have been promoted regularly since becoming a parent.
In my experience, you have to be more proactive in marketing yourself and your work. I have worked from home for seven years, picking up my three kids every day at 3pm.
It feels like you are always falling behind. But overall, I have found myself doing okay relative to my peers, while cultivating a solid family schedule and focus. Everyone is different, but the times I have lost out in office politics are far outweighed by the other things in my life.
It feels like you are always falling behind. But overall, I have found myself doing okay relative to my peers, while cultivating a solid family schedule and focus. Everyone is different, but the times I have lost out in office politics are far outweighed by the other things in my life.
If your productivity is measured by the hours you put in and not your output, you have a bigger issue than the question if your kid drags down your internal rating or not.
Doesn’t matter if your employer managed to get a bunch of your fellow employees to vote for them in one “great place to irk” survey or other.
Find out what the job you want is, work to get the skills and start looking.
Doesn’t matter if your employer managed to get a bunch of your fellow employees to vote for them in one “great place to irk” survey or other.
Find out what the job you want is, work to get the skills and start looking.
There are many ways and reasons why having kids can slow your career, but the flip side has been more important to me. Kids made me more focused (there’s no putzing around when balancing kids and work) and caretaking allowed my personal responsibility to more fully develop. The experience has made me a better and more effective person.
I think it depends on your priorities. I was heavily career focused, then had kids and focus my time on family now. If i really wanted to i could pick them up from daycare late, i could get baby sitters, i could do what’s required to be more dedicated to work, but i wouldn’t get that time with the kids back ever.
Children are your career, your job pays for it.
Spend quality time with them, don't wait until they don't need you anymore.
Spend quality time with them, don't wait until they don't need you anymore.
Thé weight of your family on your career dépends a lot of thé behaviour with the second parent. If thère are fights (even silent), kids will also be more difficult. Try to have a good split of the tasks and to be thankful and respectful.
in my case being a parent has made me waste less time and prioritize with more responsibility.
Also remember having lots of time doesn't equal productivity all the time (think about parkinsons law, work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion"). You can have shorter periods of "available" time throughout the day but if they're well used you can be very productive.
I have a couple of friends who have 3 and 4 kids and they're more productive than I am. How does that happen?, I think the important trick is how you use your time
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If you’re a woman, almost certainly. If you’re a man and don’t have a homemaker as a spouse, probably. If you’re a man and have a homemaker as a spouse, then only as much as you choose.
My career has soared since I've had kids. I don't think it's because of that (and who knows, maybe it would have soared even more had I not had kids) but it also didn't drag me down in any way.
I wish responses would specify their gender and if they are in a heterosexual or same sex relationship. It would be easier to frame where these answers are coming from.
Do kids drag your career down?
A lower rating probably indicates you should find a better job that fits your life realities better.
The worst thing for a career is not being able to relocate for a better job. Families make this way harder.
kids are important not money / career. If you need more money to support family then live a simple life where you wouldn't do unwanted expenses. Food cloth shelter, other than these everything else is unwanted for your life and your family.
Thank you. I try to live pretty simply, but housing is not cheap in our area. We haven't taken a vacation since our honeymoon and have no plans to. Most of my hobbies are low time and net positive for food or money. For example, vegetable gardening, beekeeping, and growing shiitake.
Eh, having children is kind of your literal biologic imperative. Pushing my blood on for another generation, having some sort of legacy and living on in people's memories postmortem are all things I value. Any random company that would drop me like a sack of potatoes if they needed to for whatever reason comes second to family for me, and I don't even have kids.
That being said, the engineers I know who have kids use it in one of two ways. They either try to use it as leverage for a better WLB to spend more time with their families (or, if they're not the world's best parent, to take a vacation under the guise of caring deeply for their kid), OR they go full on cut-throat sociopath career mode to enable the best life (financially) that they can for their family. Then there's the wildcard option: company doesn't care at all about your new priorities and nothing changes. That's when you brush up your resume and try to find somewhere with a management team made of human beings instead of lizard people (or the aforementioned career sociopaths).
That being said, the engineers I know who have kids use it in one of two ways. They either try to use it as leverage for a better WLB to spend more time with their families (or, if they're not the world's best parent, to take a vacation under the guise of caring deeply for their kid), OR they go full on cut-throat sociopath career mode to enable the best life (financially) that they can for their family. Then there's the wildcard option: company doesn't care at all about your new priorities and nothing changes. That's when you brush up your resume and try to find somewhere with a management team made of human beings instead of lizard people (or the aforementioned career sociopaths).
For those that had kids and said it was completely worth it, could you elaborate?
I'm not sure what 'worth it' means, as to me there's no trade off that would make it 'not worth it'. But to answer why do I enjoy having kids and why do I enjoy being a parent (2yo and 4yo, third on the way):
- I've never felt this much purpose before. It's hard to remember what drive I had four years ago, or what motivated many aspects of my life. Now I live to be a dad and I go to work to provide for my family.
- I've learned heaps. Kids growing up is not a one-way street when it comes to education, you learn too. You learn how to communicate, deal with frustrations, be content and be patient. You learn how to do a lot more, too, but those are the main ones that come to mind.
- I understand what love is, to me. I love my wife - often I refer to it as 'love at first sight' over ten years ago, and nothing has changed. But the love I have for my kids is different, it feels entirely unconditional and raw. It's a feeling I never had before kids, and it sure is sweet.
- My kids are so much fun. Yeah, it's hard work, but there's not a day that goes by where I don't have lots of fun, and lots of smiles. I wake up next to my kids every day and it's an absolute joy.
- Getting context is easy. I look at my kids and i instantly know what life is. I have a hard choice, and kids make it easier, because I've learned what it is to be less selfish.
- Getting more out of life. Life was fun and filling before I had kids, sure - but now, daily, I get more out of my life. Often I'll give a mate a buzz at 7:30am on a Saturday morning and find out I've woken them up - not because I'm rude, but because I'm already 1 - 1.5hrs into my day and I forget what 'early' is. And then I get perspective, and think 'damn, I would have hated to sleep those hours away and not of experienced banana pancakes with the kids'.
That's entirely subjective and not exhaustive, but yeah, it's rad.
- I've never felt this much purpose before. It's hard to remember what drive I had four years ago, or what motivated many aspects of my life. Now I live to be a dad and I go to work to provide for my family.
- I've learned heaps. Kids growing up is not a one-way street when it comes to education, you learn too. You learn how to communicate, deal with frustrations, be content and be patient. You learn how to do a lot more, too, but those are the main ones that come to mind.
- I understand what love is, to me. I love my wife - often I refer to it as 'love at first sight' over ten years ago, and nothing has changed. But the love I have for my kids is different, it feels entirely unconditional and raw. It's a feeling I never had before kids, and it sure is sweet.
- My kids are so much fun. Yeah, it's hard work, but there's not a day that goes by where I don't have lots of fun, and lots of smiles. I wake up next to my kids every day and it's an absolute joy.
- Getting context is easy. I look at my kids and i instantly know what life is. I have a hard choice, and kids make it easier, because I've learned what it is to be less selfish.
- Getting more out of life. Life was fun and filling before I had kids, sure - but now, daily, I get more out of my life. Often I'll give a mate a buzz at 7:30am on a Saturday morning and find out I've woken them up - not because I'm rude, but because I'm already 1 - 1.5hrs into my day and I forget what 'early' is. And then I get perspective, and think 'damn, I would have hated to sleep those hours away and not of experienced banana pancakes with the kids'.
That's entirely subjective and not exhaustive, but yeah, it's rad.
as a Man, no.
If I was a woman, yes, without a doubt. I've seen it in other women, I've seen it in my own wife. Shit is just not fair.
If I was a woman, yes, without a doubt. I've seen it in other women, I've seen it in my own wife. Shit is just not fair.
Of course they do! You want to spend every minute you can with them and start cutting whatever corners you can with everything else.
On a side note, I took parental leave last year and was basically told by a manager friend that it means a lower rating.
What is your experience?