Debian project has plenty of money but not enough developers(theregister.com)
theregister.com
Debian project has plenty of money but not enough developers
https://www.theregister.com/2020/09/10/debian_project_address/
120 comments
Bit of a weird headline as the article says Debian org has $900k in the bank but that is not spent on the devs; they are volunteers. If they would offer, let’s say, 2k/mo (the article says they need good people who like though problems; 2k is nothing for those types however, many people would like do it because of love for Debian; they do not do it now as they need at least a little food on the table) per full time contributor, there would be plenty of devs joining. But for their goals to be met, they would be also immediately broke. So in fact they do not have plenty of money to achieve what they want, unless people work for free.
I am currently unemployed/independently-wealthy/thrifter/bumming around the bay area. I love debian, and I sometimes joke that if there was such a thing as a minimum wage dev job, I would gladly take it to get out of having to pass another technical interview :/
It would be neat if they could split the difference between free and real job, but I wonder if part of the reason they don't is that they want people who care unreservedly about values and code quality rather than people who need $500 a week?
It would be neat if they could split the difference between free and real job, but I wonder if part of the reason they don't is that they want people who care unreservedly about values and code quality rather than people who need $500 a week?
It is of course one of the problems a Federal Job Guarantee would solve.
Clearly working full time on Debian is of value to society, a good use of time and clearly verifiable by committed contributions.
Definitely worth the living wage.
Clearly working full time on Debian is of value to society, a good use of time and clearly verifiable by committed contributions.
Definitely worth the living wage.
Agreed that Debian provides (a lot of) value to society. The big question is why don't they have money to fund development? Disregarding the 900k mentioned, because it's not enough to pay everyone and it would be spent soon. In my opinion public infrastructure would ideally be maintained by states, not individuals or private companies.
I may be jumping to conclusions here, but my first impression was you were suggesting that Debian is a public infrastructure, and that therefore in your opinion it would ideally be maintained by the state.
I have a rather strong emotional reaction to this because to me a major reason for FOSS is to break the problem of perverse incentives that arise in corporate -and- government work. Governments want to control their populace. The NSA, for example, has made algorithm suggestions that would give them an easier time listening in on the world. And the US has prominent figures arguing for encryption backdoors that supposedly only the "good guys" would have the keys to. Which is to say nothing of governments that outright ban encryption. So I would be very skeptical of FOSS officially maintained by a government (though I suppose its open source nature would still be a point in its favor for the transparency).
I have a rather strong emotional reaction to this because to me a major reason for FOSS is to break the problem of perverse incentives that arise in corporate -and- government work. Governments want to control their populace. The NSA, for example, has made algorithm suggestions that would give them an easier time listening in on the world. And the US has prominent figures arguing for encryption backdoors that supposedly only the "good guys" would have the keys to. Which is to say nothing of governments that outright ban encryption. So I would be very skeptical of FOSS officially maintained by a government (though I suppose its open source nature would still be a point in its favor for the transparency).
I understand the strong negative reaction; it's common. Thanks for taking the time to formulate a response.
I thinks it's two different problems: maintenance and cleptocracy. For example, should the government maintain roads and bridges? It falls within the common good (public infrastructure) so using taxes for that makes sense.
But, if the government has authority over the bridges, how to stop them from performing obligatory cavity searches (or some other bad thing) on people who use them? That's not a question of what the responsibilities or objectives of a government should be. The question is how to reform a hostile, cleptocratic government.
I won't presume what context you're coming from, but I've noticed that in some cultures it's normal to think of the government as "them". For me it's "us". While someone from the former group might say "government does that", I'm inclined to say "we do that". My outlook seems to be more common in Europe than in US, I think.
For me, using the government is the most direct and efficient way of maintaining FOSS, or doing anything that should be done by "us", as opposed to by "somebody". I see that as the purpose of governments.
These FOSS projects spanning many borders makes things slightly harder, but that's just because we're not used to that kind of cooperation. In principle there's no reason multinational programmes for financing these things can't exist.
Alternatively, make it difficult for states to use non-FOSS software. That way you'd redirect all that money being wasted on closed source.
I thinks it's two different problems: maintenance and cleptocracy. For example, should the government maintain roads and bridges? It falls within the common good (public infrastructure) so using taxes for that makes sense.
But, if the government has authority over the bridges, how to stop them from performing obligatory cavity searches (or some other bad thing) on people who use them? That's not a question of what the responsibilities or objectives of a government should be. The question is how to reform a hostile, cleptocratic government.
I won't presume what context you're coming from, but I've noticed that in some cultures it's normal to think of the government as "them". For me it's "us". While someone from the former group might say "government does that", I'm inclined to say "we do that". My outlook seems to be more common in Europe than in US, I think.
For me, using the government is the most direct and efficient way of maintaining FOSS, or doing anything that should be done by "us", as opposed to by "somebody". I see that as the purpose of governments.
These FOSS projects spanning many borders makes things slightly harder, but that's just because we're not used to that kind of cooperation. In principle there's no reason multinational programmes for financing these things can't exist.
Alternatively, make it difficult for states to use non-FOSS software. That way you'd redirect all that money being wasted on closed source.
Funding digital infrastructure through state sponsorship is hard. Because the industry moves fast and politics does not.. nor is politics particularly efficient, they just can't be experts on everything.
Sponsoring large research projects might go along way though.
> Governments want to control their populace.
That's a pretty broad statement :)
In my country we have free speech, and the state/government protects freedom of speech.
Similarly, my government tend to promote human rights. I think that can still be said about the US too.
No governments aren't perfect, but control is not their major concern.
Sponsoring large research projects might go along way though.
> Governments want to control their populace.
That's a pretty broad statement :)
In my country we have free speech, and the state/government protects freedom of speech.
Similarly, my government tend to promote human rights. I think that can still be said about the US too.
No governments aren't perfect, but control is not their major concern.
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> In my opinion public infrastructure would ideally be maintained by states
There's no government layer at the level Debian operates. As pretty much everything internet based, its users ( and contributors) are international - which I think is the main reason why we don't see public alternative services to social networks, search engines, etc.
China is a special case, since they explicitly would rather keep the userbase restricted to Chinese citizens.
There's no government layer at the level Debian operates. As pretty much everything internet based, its users ( and contributors) are international - which I think is the main reason why we don't see public alternative services to social networks, search engines, etc.
China is a special case, since they explicitly would rather keep the userbase restricted to Chinese citizens.
NSF, NIH
There are tons of federal agencies that could sponsor FOSS.
https://www.usa.gov/federal-agencies/
I'd love to see a program where FOSS devs could get say 2k-4k tax free per month depending on part or full time work. A billion a year would pay for just under 21k developer years or close to 42k part time devs.
Federal, state and local governments burn some large integer multiple of that amount every year on proprietary, closed source software.
There are tons of federal agencies that could sponsor FOSS.
https://www.usa.gov/federal-agencies/
I'd love to see a program where FOSS devs could get say 2k-4k tax free per month depending on part or full time work. A billion a year would pay for just under 21k developer years or close to 42k part time devs.
Federal, state and local governments burn some large integer multiple of that amount every year on proprietary, closed source software.
> governments burn some large integer multiple of that amount
probably not an integer, more likely an irrational number
probably not an integer, more likely an irrational number
Surely it's an actual currency amount, so it's not irrational. I'll accept it's unlikely to be an integer, but it should be a rational non-integer.
But, perhaps you were joking and it's an 'irrational' amount?
But, perhaps you were joking and it's an 'irrational' amount?
I don't know for sure how much the US government / DOD spends on RHEL licenses, but I've worked at plenty of contractors who were using it (and CentOS). I would be surprised if a significant amount of RHEL's revenues weren't from the federal government.
Its good that there is no Government layer in Debian. If they did, it would quickly dissipate into just another disaster.
>clearly verifiable by committed contributions
I'm afraid of this part gaining significance over other and its side-effects becoming main effects.
I'm afraid of this part gaining significance over other and its side-effects becoming main effects.
Ugh, federal job guarantees don't work. Nothing in life is gauranteed.
> Federal Job Guarantee
Job Guarantee isn't as good of an idea as you'd expect: https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/05/16/basic-income-not-basic...
Job Guarantee isn't as good of an idea as you'd expect: https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/05/16/basic-income-not-basic...
It's the only idea that works from the point of view of those growing and making your food and shelter.
There is no magic porridge pot. Somebody has to make the stuff you want to buy, and they ain't going to waste their life making stuff for you if you're not doing anything in return. Why should they?
There is no magic porridge pot. Somebody has to make the stuff you want to buy, and they ain't going to waste their life making stuff for you if you're not doing anything in return. Why should they?
Maybe the FreeBSD Foundation is something for you, they Sponsor you so you can implement wanted stuff into FreeBSD (just an option not opinionated)
Thanks for the tip!
Where can I read more about this?
You'd probably be interested in part-time contracting. Set your own hours and rates. Often there's a small paid project in lieu of an interview. Lots of interesting projects are willing to shell out for a contractor that aren't willing to hire a full time employee.
I don't know Debian's specific history, but having participated in volunteer organizations, getting everyone to agree on how to spend money can be tricky.
Personally I'd love to be making more open source contributions as well, and I've been thinking off and on about taking a sabbatical to make time for it, though that probably won't happen.
I might be able to help find dev work for you that doesn't involve technical interviews, though it may not necessarily be a "job".
Personally I'd love to be making more open source contributions as well, and I've been thinking off and on about taking a sabbatical to make time for it, though that probably won't happen.
I might be able to help find dev work for you that doesn't involve technical interviews, though it may not necessarily be a "job".
One model that is between a free and a real job would be a collective where housing, food, and internet is provided but not much else. Hacker spaces are also similar to this but in my experience rarely ever focus on system development, but instead more on hardware and hardware art.
Mmm. A million dollars isn't a lot of money these days. That is something like 5 to 18 full time devs, for 1 year. Good luck running the Debian project at market rates.
I have some spare time and I'd love to work on Debian, but I got offered $500 to work on another open source project.
The person who made me the offer was very apologetic - as she said, it's not even my day rate - but as I said, I'd probably do it for nothing, no one's making a penny out of the software, it's really useful, and $500 isn't nothing.
I think they could get plenty of people to work on Debian for 10 hours a week for $10k a year, as a hobby.
The person who made me the offer was very apologetic - as she said, it's not even my day rate - but as I said, I'd probably do it for nothing, no one's making a penny out of the software, it's really useful, and $500 isn't nothing.
I think they could get plenty of people to work on Debian for 10 hours a week for $10k a year, as a hobby.
There are thousands of people working opensource for nothing. Why do you or anybody care about market rates when those people (me included) would do it for minimum wage?
I'd happily code all day long on stuff I really care about for minimum wage. And when I day minimum, I don't mean the penance described by the law that forces you to have multiple minimum wage jobs to get by. No, I mean one single job that pays enough to get by.
I'd happily code all day long on stuff I really care about for minimum wage. And when I day minimum, I don't mean the penance described by the law that forces you to have multiple minimum wage jobs to get by. No, I mean one single job that pays enough to get by.
This is very true, i think the guy you're responding to is thinking more in terms of when there are more jobs then devs, not the other way around.
Even if that becomes the case, since this stuff goes though phases, a lot of college students or kids right out of high school would still jump at the chance to gain this sort of experience, alongside people like you, who just want their needs taken care of, a bit of spending money, and a job where they can focus on what they enjoy without too much demanding or stress. Same for older people with a lot of expertise, but who again want something less demanding but still enough to support them until they retire, or give them a purpose after they do so.
Like my dad, he's a network engineer, in a job like I described. He and my mom are a little over retirement age and plan to retire soon, but he's not one to just sit around the house all day. I think that's one reason he keeps saying he'll retire in 2 - 3 years, but says that year after year.
Even if that becomes the case, since this stuff goes though phases, a lot of college students or kids right out of high school would still jump at the chance to gain this sort of experience, alongside people like you, who just want their needs taken care of, a bit of spending money, and a job where they can focus on what they enjoy without too much demanding or stress. Same for older people with a lot of expertise, but who again want something less demanding but still enough to support them until they retire, or give them a purpose after they do so.
Like my dad, he's a network engineer, in a job like I described. He and my mom are a little over retirement age and plan to retire soon, but he's not one to just sit around the house all day. I think that's one reason he keeps saying he'll retire in 2 - 3 years, but says that year after year.
> i think the guy you're responding to is thinking more in terms of when there are more jobs then devs, not the other way around.
No, I'm thinking if you pay peanuts you'll get monkeys. It is rare for a situation to stay the same after money gets involved. People make decisions based on money.
No, I'm thinking if you pay peanuts you'll get monkeys. It is rare for a situation to stay the same after money gets involved. People make decisions based on money.
Stability is a thing though; a younger version of me would've gladly opted for 2k/month if there was the likelihood of that continuing for 20+ years. Open source projects tend to run for very long times and the solid ones keep growing (in every way) so it's not a naive assumption.
And that’s not even accounting for benefits, which often add a huge amount of cost above and beyond the listed salary.
I'm in the InfoSec field, and bug bounties are a huge thing now (well, for years but it seems to keep gaining steam) for app security. There are people who make a living, or at least generate secondary income off it, or others do bug hunting as a hobby and to help out and don't mind a little bit of reward when it's there.
Maybe it's because I'm not big into the development side of things, but I cannot recall any programs that'd be similar to bug bounties but focus on someone building code or fixing the bugs and submitting that in a freelance type capacity.
Granted, my limited knowledge of development may just mean I don't see obvious reasons it's not done or widely known about, and there would be a few different things thatd need to happen vs how bug hunting works, but its similar to your idea to attract more talent to work on small bits, without going out and hiring full time developers.
Maybe it's because I'm not big into the development side of things, but I cannot recall any programs that'd be similar to bug bounties but focus on someone building code or fixing the bugs and submitting that in a freelance type capacity.
Granted, my limited knowledge of development may just mean I don't see obvious reasons it's not done or widely known about, and there would be a few different things thatd need to happen vs how bug hunting works, but its similar to your idea to attract more talent to work on small bits, without going out and hiring full time developers.
If you pay some of the volunteers does that not basically spit in the face of those not being paid? It would really annoy the hell out of me if I’d been making Debian better for 20 years for free while training up someone being paid to get involved.
The big difference is subordination.
A volunteer gets to choose what he wants to work on and if he wants to work at all. An employee/contractor does what his boss/customer wants him to do and get compensated (i.e. paid) for it.
There are many reasons why you may want to pay someone. The obvious one is to do things no one wants to do for free.
But maybe you also want a proper contract, to make sure some essential job is done fully. Volunteers who work on they spare time will stop working for you once they stop having spare time, and there is not much you can do about it, both legally and ethically.
Sometimes you also need certifications. I don't know how it applies to Debian but certified people usually don't work for free. The certification process can be expensive and they can have legal responsibilities. Even if people can offer their time and skills for free, legal responsibilities are usually off limits.
As an example, I volunteered to staff a few events. None of the regular staff and organizers were paid. However, security was paid. While we had a few burly guys, no one wanted to take responsibility, and probably couldn't anyways.
A volunteer gets to choose what he wants to work on and if he wants to work at all. An employee/contractor does what his boss/customer wants him to do and get compensated (i.e. paid) for it.
There are many reasons why you may want to pay someone. The obvious one is to do things no one wants to do for free.
But maybe you also want a proper contract, to make sure some essential job is done fully. Volunteers who work on they spare time will stop working for you once they stop having spare time, and there is not much you can do about it, both legally and ethically.
Sometimes you also need certifications. I don't know how it applies to Debian but certified people usually don't work for free. The certification process can be expensive and they can have legal responsibilities. Even if people can offer their time and skills for free, legal responsibilities are usually off limits.
As an example, I volunteered to staff a few events. None of the regular staff and organizers were paid. However, security was paid. While we had a few burly guys, no one wanted to take responsibility, and probably couldn't anyways.
Depends. There are a lot of tedious things that the volunteers know need to be done but don't want to do. Paying to get that done is helpful. (Note that what is tedious varies between personalities...) There are also cases where the volunteer knows he is overloaded and will welcome help.
I'm not sure how Jonathan is defining "enough" developers. It's very easy to come up with a definition that says Debian doesn't have enough developers: just say Debian should package every piece of software out there.
But that makes no sense. In reality, there has to be some sort of decision mechanism over what packages are included and what aren't. If that decision isn't made pro-actively, it will be forced upon you - via the man power problem. Debian is at its heart a do-ocracy, which boils down to something happens only if some individual can raise the energy to make it happen. So a package dies when no Debian member can make (unpaid) time to save it. It's not like there is someone who can order someone else to save it - Debian is a purely volunteer organisation.
It's easy to paint that as having a man power problem, but curating the packages is essential task that must be undertaken. Doing it isn't "a problem", it's essential to survival.
It's also easy to criticise the way this decision is made. Just leaving it to the individual decision making of 1k volunteers sounds so unorganised. But the flip side is if you have paid engineers you are doing the reverse, you are giving someone the power to order other developers around. In an organisation like Debian that attracts membership through it strong egalitarian principles, that's going to be an anathema to most of it's members.
As an side, despite all the whinging here while it's difficult to introduce a new package to Debian, it is not difficult to step up to support an existing package. You don't have to be a developer or a maintainer, and there are any number of existing developers and maintainers who will upload your work if you do it. So if a package dies, it's not too far from a stretch to say it was because no-one on the planet with the skills was that interested in doing the work.
But that makes no sense. In reality, there has to be some sort of decision mechanism over what packages are included and what aren't. If that decision isn't made pro-actively, it will be forced upon you - via the man power problem. Debian is at its heart a do-ocracy, which boils down to something happens only if some individual can raise the energy to make it happen. So a package dies when no Debian member can make (unpaid) time to save it. It's not like there is someone who can order someone else to save it - Debian is a purely volunteer organisation.
It's easy to paint that as having a man power problem, but curating the packages is essential task that must be undertaken. Doing it isn't "a problem", it's essential to survival.
It's also easy to criticise the way this decision is made. Just leaving it to the individual decision making of 1k volunteers sounds so unorganised. But the flip side is if you have paid engineers you are doing the reverse, you are giving someone the power to order other developers around. In an organisation like Debian that attracts membership through it strong egalitarian principles, that's going to be an anathema to most of it's members.
As an side, despite all the whinging here while it's difficult to introduce a new package to Debian, it is not difficult to step up to support an existing package. You don't have to be a developer or a maintainer, and there are any number of existing developers and maintainers who will upload your work if you do it. So if a package dies, it's not too far from a stretch to say it was because no-one on the planet with the skills was that interested in doing the work.
Yeah I’m also confused by this. Debian has an opportunity to reiterate that free software isn’t just a pipe dream volunteer effort but rather that there is business being software authorities without the baggage of a slew of software patents and terms and license agreements. Perhaps if they paid core maintainers it would ostracize other contributors who didn't make the cut? Perhaps they don’t want to become a Canonical and have to answer to steak holders? There’s value in being frugal but you also meed to know your own value or others will take advantage of you.
Some Debian developers tried to get funding to finish the Etch release, but it was met with a lot of hostility:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2006/10/msg00260.htm...
That doesn't mean that it cannot be done. E.g. the FreeBSD Foundation pays developers for specific projects that are important to the future of FreeBSD:
https://freebsdfoundation.org/our-work/projects/
https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2006/10/msg00260.htm...
That doesn't mean that it cannot be done. E.g. the FreeBSD Foundation pays developers for specific projects that are important to the future of FreeBSD:
https://freebsdfoundation.org/our-work/projects/
It can be done, but culturally the projects are too different.
There were valid reasons for the hostility. Bringing money into the equation completely changes the dynamics of an all-volunteer project, and splits the developers into the gilded minority and the plebs who slave away for free. Plenty of volunteer organisations have been torn apart by the resentment and infighting that can result.
* Which developers are eligible for funding, and which are not?
* The organisation is no longer flat; some people are effectively profiting off the backs of the majority
* The meritocracy is lost; do the "paid staff" have more of a say than the "unpaid volunteers"
* Are "paid staff" even volunteers any more?
The vast majority of Debian developers work full time on their day jobs, and contribute to Debian as a labour of love in their spare time, or as part of their work for situations where organisations sanction Debian work.
I used to work 8 hours, and then come home and regularly work 4-8 hours on Debian. Every day for nearly a decade. Totally unsustainable, and I'm no longer an active contributor. But for people who are contributing that much, for free, you can see why there would be concerns over the effect of a paid class of contributor to the organisation as a whole.
None of that is to say it can't work. FreeBSD is smaller, more tightly-focused, and has a culture of corporate contribution. Paying people to write specific features delivers results on a schedule. I donate to the FreeBSD foundation for that reason. The developer culture seems to be much more tolerant of this (though I'm not a FreeBSD insider, so don't know all the details).
FreeBSD is vastly simpler to contribute to, so I can participate with vastly less commitment. Contributing a new port or an updated port or bugfix is simply a matter of attaching a patch to a bugzilla ticket. Maybe it's not so much of an issue because there's already a clear separation of core devs vs casual contributors. And that's OK.
There were valid reasons for the hostility. Bringing money into the equation completely changes the dynamics of an all-volunteer project, and splits the developers into the gilded minority and the plebs who slave away for free. Plenty of volunteer organisations have been torn apart by the resentment and infighting that can result.
* Which developers are eligible for funding, and which are not?
* The organisation is no longer flat; some people are effectively profiting off the backs of the majority
* The meritocracy is lost; do the "paid staff" have more of a say than the "unpaid volunteers"
* Are "paid staff" even volunteers any more?
The vast majority of Debian developers work full time on their day jobs, and contribute to Debian as a labour of love in their spare time, or as part of their work for situations where organisations sanction Debian work.
I used to work 8 hours, and then come home and regularly work 4-8 hours on Debian. Every day for nearly a decade. Totally unsustainable, and I'm no longer an active contributor. But for people who are contributing that much, for free, you can see why there would be concerns over the effect of a paid class of contributor to the organisation as a whole.
None of that is to say it can't work. FreeBSD is smaller, more tightly-focused, and has a culture of corporate contribution. Paying people to write specific features delivers results on a schedule. I donate to the FreeBSD foundation for that reason. The developer culture seems to be much more tolerant of this (though I'm not a FreeBSD insider, so don't know all the details).
FreeBSD is vastly simpler to contribute to, so I can participate with vastly less commitment. Contributing a new port or an updated port or bugfix is simply a matter of attaching a patch to a bugzilla ticket. Maybe it's not so much of an issue because there's already a clear separation of core devs vs casual contributors. And that's OK.
> The meritocracy is lost; do the "paid staff" have more of a say than the "unpaid volunteers"
Is it a meritocracy if only developers who can afford to work for free participates?
Is it a meritocracy if only developers who can afford to work for free participates?
Err, yes. Yes it is.
Debian is an all-volunteer organisation. Those are the terms for participation and they apply equally to all. If you want to be paid for writing free software, then get a job with a company that does that. Debian is not a company.
Debian is an all-volunteer organisation. Those are the terms for participation and they apply equally to all. If you want to be paid for writing free software, then get a job with a company that does that. Debian is not a company.
> Err, yes. Yes it is.
So people who are wealthy enough to not have to worry about getting paid for their work have more merit than those who need to make rent?
This seems like a very Jane Austin-era view of meritocracy.
So people who are wealthy enough to not have to worry about getting paid for their work have more merit than those who need to make rent?
This seems like a very Jane Austin-era view of meritocracy.
It's a orthogonal concern and isn't relevant to the discussion at hand. "Merit" in this context is based upon technical considerations and is unrelated to contributors' personal finances and employment status. Contributors range from highly-paid consultants, through to academics, students, etc..
Debian contributors are volunteers. They volunteer their time, personal resources such as compute hardware, bandwidth etc. Some pay out of their pocket for running mirrors, compute resources and other infrastructure. Other parts are paid for by donations and infrastructure provision by sponsors. But far from all of it.
So at a personal level, individuals must be able to support themselves sufficiently to be able to contribute. That's no different from working in any other volunteer organisation which requires a commitment of free time and other resources to participate. That's life. Nothing comes totally for free. The bottom line is that participation at a minimum requires you to donate some of your free time. You're a volunteer, not an employee. What more do you really expect here?
Debian contributors are volunteers. They volunteer their time, personal resources such as compute hardware, bandwidth etc. Some pay out of their pocket for running mirrors, compute resources and other infrastructure. Other parts are paid for by donations and infrastructure provision by sponsors. But far from all of it.
So at a personal level, individuals must be able to support themselves sufficiently to be able to contribute. That's no different from working in any other volunteer organisation which requires a commitment of free time and other resources to participate. That's life. Nothing comes totally for free. The bottom line is that participation at a minimum requires you to donate some of your free time. You're a volunteer, not an employee. What more do you really expect here?
This is true, but I don't think it's relevant. Those who can't afford the table stakes aren't represented, and while that's a bad thing in general, it doesn't cause the specific internal resentment within the project that the earlier post was talking about. I think "meritocracy" in this case was used to refer to the internal social dynamics of this system, not the generalised ones that apply across the whole population.
In other words, I think this reply shifts the context from "will paying volunteers harm the project?" to "is paying volunteers morally right because it enables wider participation?"
In other words, I think this reply shifts the context from "will paying volunteers harm the project?" to "is paying volunteers morally right because it enables wider participation?"
Do you think a bounty system would work? Leadership decides payouts for different contributions. Possibly exclude leadership from bounty access so that the core ethos is still volunteer driven. Everyone else has access to bounties so there’s no resentment. Contributions could range from code patches to release management & announcements.
I'd like to say yes, but I really don't think that would work. It changes an organisation where everyone contributes for free to one where a subset of the developers are all chasing after bounties. "Equal access" doesn't mean no resentment. There's going to be competition due to the limited funding, and there will be losers. There will be questions and recrimination over how fair the selection process is (whether true or not). But getting the bounty also means a commitment to providing some deliverables within a defined period, compared to the commitment being imposed primarily due to one's dedication to the project.
Overall, I can see it working for some organisations. But I don't see Debian as one of them.
Overall, I can see it working for some organisations. But I don't see Debian as one of them.
The Monero cryptocurrency's developers are all funded via the community via bounties. I think it works really well.
https://ccs.getmonero.org/ (new system) https://forum.getmonero.org/22/completed-tasks (old system)
https://ccs.getmonero.org/ (new system) https://forum.getmonero.org/22/completed-tasks (old system)
Instead of paying volunteers would contracting critical tasks to an FOSS friendly software consulting firm be less controversial for Debian (although that might not be an option due to expense)?
Just curious
Just curious
It's an interesting question. Like bounties, I think it would not work, for similar reasons.
Work you contract out is effectively saying: none of you volunteers are up to the task. We'll have to get someone better than you to do it. That's not great for the psyche of the project.
And this has already happened from a certain perspective. (I'm biased here, for the record.) Look at the systemd debate and fallout. At its core, this was effectively contracting out the maintenance of the whole base system to a third party organisation, and telling the Debian developers that they weren't allowed to touch it in all but the most superficial way. This isn't about the technical merits of the decision, by the way. It's about how the organisation went from being an independent technical leader with development driven by its own people, who were highly regarded in their own right, to being a follower being told what to do by others. It took away the primary driver of Debian's independent existence and the agency of its developers to drive change at that level. (It was a minor contributing factor behind my leaving the project.)
And like bounties, there are concerns over who gets the money. Is it subject to favouritism, influence, or other factors.
As I said in the original post, I think it could (and does) work for other organisations. What makes Debian unique is that its origins were a 100% volunteer-driven self-sufficient effort, and that essentially defines the project's culture to this day. Every bit of internal infrastructure and tooling was originally self-developed. I used to maintain some of it myself. Other organisations would have no political issues with paying a contractor to "get x done". But being a volunteer effort, actually "doing x" is as important to the volunteers as the end goal.
Work you contract out is effectively saying: none of you volunteers are up to the task. We'll have to get someone better than you to do it. That's not great for the psyche of the project.
And this has already happened from a certain perspective. (I'm biased here, for the record.) Look at the systemd debate and fallout. At its core, this was effectively contracting out the maintenance of the whole base system to a third party organisation, and telling the Debian developers that they weren't allowed to touch it in all but the most superficial way. This isn't about the technical merits of the decision, by the way. It's about how the organisation went from being an independent technical leader with development driven by its own people, who were highly regarded in their own right, to being a follower being told what to do by others. It took away the primary driver of Debian's independent existence and the agency of its developers to drive change at that level. (It was a minor contributing factor behind my leaving the project.)
And like bounties, there are concerns over who gets the money. Is it subject to favouritism, influence, or other factors.
As I said in the original post, I think it could (and does) work for other organisations. What makes Debian unique is that its origins were a 100% volunteer-driven self-sufficient effort, and that essentially defines the project's culture to this day. Every bit of internal infrastructure and tooling was originally self-developed. I used to maintain some of it myself. Other organisations would have no political issues with paying a contractor to "get x done". But being a volunteer effort, actually "doing x" is as important to the volunteers as the end goal.
I think volunteer work is at the core of their culture. Paying a few core full time contributors seems like a good idea - i assume it's happening already.
The only payments Debian does to contributors are to Outreachy interns:
https://www.outreachy.org/
https://www.outreachy.org/
> they need good people who like though problems; 2k is nothing for those types however
Many people of that type work at universities for comparable compensations. E.g. 50% E13 position at TU Berlin gives you monthly 2k pre tax. If you spend lots of your time to improve the public good, you'll still need something to put food on your table (unless you are financially independent of course, but many people aren't).
Many people of that type work at universities for comparable compensations. E.g. 50% E13 position at TU Berlin gives you monthly 2k pre tax. If you spend lots of your time to improve the public good, you'll still need something to put food on your table (unless you are financially independent of course, but many people aren't).
basically, if they would offer 50/50-jobs in partnership with public services, where the public service guarantees job security and the Debian project guarantees some oldfashioned hacker-spirit, people would fly at these (or at least I would. People could spend 50% of the time for Debian and push OSS adoption in the public service and develop the basic CRUD in the remaining time.
But.... sadly this is not going to fill the coffers of politicians and consultants alike, so things like these will just be daydreaming until a majority of people is fed up with corruption and not braindamaged enough to believe extremist bullshit.
But.... sadly this is not going to fill the coffers of politicians and consultants alike, so things like these will just be daydreaming until a majority of people is fed up with corruption and not braindamaged enough to believe extremist bullshit.
The 50% E13 positions in German universities, actually expect you to work for 100%. Source: Me
I know. but generally these are only temps and so give you no job security. Go look around at the administration and check, how they are doing it ;)
2k/mo would pay for 37 devs for a year. Rather than that do micropayments for contributions (approved packages, finished tasks). A project such as Debian only needs a few core members or people working on important projects paid full time. It works for FreeBSD.
I really like Debian but volunteers are probably better off packaging for other distros such as Arch or Alpine with simpler packaging/better tooling and less strict rules. One thing to improve would be tooling to make packages.
I really like Debian but volunteers are probably better off packaging for other distros such as Arch or Alpine with simpler packaging/better tooling and less strict rules. One thing to improve would be tooling to make packages.
Is $900k in the bank a lot of money for as large and important an organization as Debian? That is how much the Mozilla Corporation earns every 18 hours. Even if the staff are volunteers, having rainy day spending seems prudent.
Debian doesn’t spend millions of dollars on executives
Or on any salaries.
Debian's expenses are hosting, conferences and travel reimbursement -- and not a lot of that.
It's still not really a lot of money, though. As a thought experiment, if Google decided to donate $1 per installed Debian or derivative OS, I think that might double Debian's bank account.
That's a plausible funding slogan -- "A Dollar for Debian".
Debian's expenses are hosting, conferences and travel reimbursement -- and not a lot of that.
It's still not really a lot of money, though. As a thought experiment, if Google decided to donate $1 per installed Debian or derivative OS, I think that might double Debian's bank account.
That's a plausible funding slogan -- "A Dollar for Debian".
Debian doesn't pay for hosting for most services, all the ones run by the Debian sysadmin team use donated hosting environments at universities and companies. For a while we also had a partnership with HPE that gave us gratis x86 hardware, but these days we do have to spend money on x86 hardware unfortunately. The non-x86 ports usually run on donated hardware but we only run build servers on those machines so far. Google already donates quite a bit to Debian through conference sponsorship and also a one-time 300K donation last year or the year before.
I see Debian is one of the projects that benefit from Google's Summer of Code student sponsorships, although that is a much smaller contribution compared to those you mentioned.
Do you know if any of the students who particpate in Debian's summer of code end up being regular contributors after the sponsorship period ends?
Do you know if any of the students who particpate in Debian's summer of code end up being regular contributors after the sponsorship period ends?
Definitely both Outreachy and GSoC students participate after their internships, although a lot of them of course don't participate for various reasons.
In particular I know that for years now former GSoC interns are mentoring current GSoC interns on the project to package parts of the Android SDK for Debian. This year it is last year's intern and also two others from prior years.
https://wiki.debian.org/SummerOfCode2020/ApprovedProjects/An...
In particular I know that for years now former GSoC interns are mentoring current GSoC interns on the project to package parts of the Android SDK for Debian. This year it is last year's intern and also two others from prior years.
https://wiki.debian.org/SummerOfCode2020/ApprovedProjects/An...
This 2019 blog post from a Debian developer describes some of the problems they are facing from a developer perspective: "Winding down my Debian involvement" https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2019-03-10-debian-windin...
Not liking the bug tracker and mailing lists as well as several other points come across as typical things-need-to-be-done-differently now, which has destroyed the culture and meaningful participation in other projects, like Python.
I'm sure there are many valid criticisms of Debian, the main one for me is overpatching upstream packages.
I'm sure there are many valid criticisms of Debian, the main one for me is overpatching upstream packages.
Getting in a patch fight with a .deb maintainer is a right of passage that everyone in the OSS world gets to go through. The slicing and dicing that is done to well mannered software that didn't harm anyone is atrocious. PETP (People for the Ethical Treatment of Packages)
Distros and packaging have much lower relevance as operating systems are viewed as applications, rarely are unix systems multiuser, often serving a single software package. Even desktop operating systems are getting containerized, Qubes, etc.
Distros and packaging have much lower relevance as operating systems are viewed as applications, rarely are unix systems multiuser, often serving a single software package. Even desktop operating systems are getting containerized, Qubes, etc.
The bug tracker is objectively awful. It takes 15+ minutes to subscribe to a bug, which is ridiculous! Absolutely no one would write a bug tracker today where everything is processed by email[1].
[1] Which is not to say that messaging is bad - a web interface with a proper message queue behind it would be fine. In fact that's how Fedora's systems work. It's that email is not a reasonable messaging system for this purpose.
[1] Which is not to say that messaging is bad - a web interface with a proper message queue behind it would be fine. In fact that's how Fedora's systems work. It's that email is not a reasonable messaging system for this purpose.
Tell me about it. Doing bulk updates to dozens of bugs as a routine daily activity was an exercise in masochism. As for making comments on existing bugs, you had to manually download the mbox archive just to make sure the right recipients were copied in.
It was pretty neat in 1998. Today, it's long eclipsed by pretty much everything else.
If I were Debian, I'd migrate the whole lot over to GitLab issues seeing as they have the infrastructure for it set up (salsa). The problem is there is a very vocal minority who still think it's not only good, but the best choice for Debian. I doubt the silent majority who suffer it agree. Like anything, it's an entrenched part of Debian culture that's hard to change. But it was time to retire it over a decade back.
It was pretty neat in 1998. Today, it's long eclipsed by pretty much everything else.
If I were Debian, I'd migrate the whole lot over to GitLab issues seeing as they have the infrastructure for it set up (salsa). The problem is there is a very vocal minority who still think it's not only good, but the best choice for Debian. I doubt the silent majority who suffer it agree. Like anything, it's an entrenched part of Debian culture that's hard to change. But it was time to retire it over a decade back.
I like Debian and have entertained the thought of becoming a Debian developer multiple times. The learning curve for a new developer is steep. Just packaging a small piece of software requires a large amount of documents to consider last time i looked.
It is a tiresome process. I attempted to submit a particular package (and others before and after me). It was either met with a lot of red tape (IIRC document licenses for each file individually) and months of no visible progress when comments were addressed.
This was in stark contrast to e.g. contributing to nixpkgs. Do a PR on GitHub. The package gets built automatically by CI. Get feedback. Make changes to address the feedback. And it gets merged. Of course, PRs sometimes go stale (most projects are dealing with a lack of manpower), but the process is generally fast.
But the outcomes are radically different: I never attempted to contribute to Debian again, but I have become an active contributor to nixpkgs.
I think to attract developers the process needs to be modernized. Put all the package definitions in a Gitlab monorepo. Build each PR in a sandbox on CI. Describe the submission process on a single page.
This was in stark contrast to e.g. contributing to nixpkgs. Do a PR on GitHub. The package gets built automatically by CI. Get feedback. Make changes to address the feedback. And it gets merged. Of course, PRs sometimes go stale (most projects are dealing with a lack of manpower), but the process is generally fast.
But the outcomes are radically different: I never attempted to contribute to Debian again, but I have become an active contributor to nixpkgs.
I think to attract developers the process needs to be modernized. Put all the package definitions in a Gitlab monorepo. Build each PR in a sandbox on CI. Describe the submission process on a single page.
The processes are a legacy of distributed development in the era of dial-up internet. No always-available services, no github, not even any requirement for version control. With every package being maintained independently. While most packages do now use version control, every package has the potential to use a different system, and internally could use a different set of tools to do the actual packaging work.
If you were to design the .deb packaging workflow today, you'd do it very differently. You would probably have a single, or much smaller, set of source repositories, and you would have a single tool to do all the core packaging work.
You only have to look at the BSD Ports, MacPorts, Homebrew, vcpkg, and other software collections to appreciate how extremely complex the Debian approach is, and how the other systems benefit from a strictly standard set of functions to do their job, making all packages uniform and easy to work on.
On the other hand, because of these considerations, Debian has vastly better support for complex versioned dependencies, and the SAT solver in apt is best in its class. The other systems manage the collection as a whole and don't need to care to the same extent.
So I would agree some modernisation wouldn't go amiss. But it's difficult to accomplish that when you have a 25 year legacy of doing it a completely different way. And you have over 20000 packages to fix.
If you were to design the .deb packaging workflow today, you'd do it very differently. You would probably have a single, or much smaller, set of source repositories, and you would have a single tool to do all the core packaging work.
You only have to look at the BSD Ports, MacPorts, Homebrew, vcpkg, and other software collections to appreciate how extremely complex the Debian approach is, and how the other systems benefit from a strictly standard set of functions to do their job, making all packages uniform and easy to work on.
On the other hand, because of these considerations, Debian has vastly better support for complex versioned dependencies, and the SAT solver in apt is best in its class. The other systems manage the collection as a whole and don't need to care to the same extent.
So I would agree some modernisation wouldn't go amiss. But it's difficult to accomplish that when you have a 25 year legacy of doing it a completely different way. And you have over 20000 packages to fix.
Debian cares a lot more about licensing than Nix. Debian also has far more developers than Nix, I imagine, and processes that have probably existed for longer than GitHub itself.
> processes that have probably existed for longer than GitHub itself.
There is a saying in German that goes
> Wer nicht mit der Zeit geht, geht mit der Zeit.
Now Debian has lot inertia and Ubuntu is a huge factor too, so there are enough incentives for people to put up with that process.
Also, maybe this is by design. By keeping the bar for every high, maintainers are not bothered by low effort PRs.
There is a saying in German that goes
> Wer nicht mit der Zeit geht, geht mit der Zeit.
Now Debian has lot inertia and Ubuntu is a huge factor too, so there are enough incentives for people to put up with that process.
Also, maybe this is by design. By keeping the bar for every high, maintainers are not bothered by low effort PRs.
Back when I was eager to join they still had this ridiculous several month or 2 year long process to get in, so after reading a few accounts of that I said screw it and never even tried again, even when they changed that. I guess I wasn't the only one, and in the end I joined other projects where contributing was fun and easy. (And yeah, I'm neither someone to start projects nor spending consistent time every week, but that doesn't mean you can't contribute lots of time).
Still a happy Debian user after all these years, but I'm past the time where I'd spend effort to even try to join.
Still a happy Debian user after all these years, but I'm past the time where I'd spend effort to even try to join.
On the other hand, those documents are well organized and clearly written, which makes skipping around to just the parts you need rather easy. A wealth of example material and helper tools (e.g. lintian) are also available, and all the policy changes are versioned and described as human-readable diffs[1], so the cost of catching up if you haven't been following progress for a few years is quite low.
I think my first simple debian package was working within a few hours, and I was tackling more complex stuff within a few days. Not bad for a system that can handle the oddball installation requirements of just about any software, while also accounting for many install/configure/upgrade/downgrade/reinstall/remove edge cases.
I'll grant that it is a complicated system, and there's a lot of legacy stuff beneath the higher-level tools. I suppose my point is that the vast majority of the complexity turns out to be avoidable in most cases, and getting started is not as hard as it looks.
[1] https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/upgrading-checklist...
I think my first simple debian package was working within a few hours, and I was tackling more complex stuff within a few days. Not bad for a system that can handle the oddball installation requirements of just about any software, while also accounting for many install/configure/upgrade/downgrade/reinstall/remove edge cases.
I'll grant that it is a complicated system, and there's a lot of legacy stuff beneath the higher-level tools. I suppose my point is that the vast majority of the complexity turns out to be avoidable in most cases, and getting started is not as hard as it looks.
[1] https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/upgrading-checklist...
Maybe, but you will be able to use some of the knowledge or intuition gained if you ever have to package something for any other distro.
Yes, I gave up trying to package a small utility.
I guess the call to action is: https://www.debian.org/intro/help or https://www.debian.org/devel/join/
Maybe also https://wiki.debian.org/how-can-i-help
Maybe also https://wiki.debian.org/how-can-i-help
No wonder, they have the largest red tape on maintainer application process.
Until very recently they were expecting GPG keys signed by 2 Debian developers, and that could be only done by being developers face to face, or by attending a key signing party on DebConf. Tough luck if you're in a remote location. Not sure how it's being done after pandemic.
Until very recently they were expecting GPG keys signed by 2 Debian developers, and that could be only done by being developers face to face, or by attending a key signing party on DebConf. Tough luck if you're in a remote location. Not sure how it's being done after pandemic.
I think it's awesome that they have a fully autonomous cryptographic web of trust. Far too few organizations do.
I wish Mozilla mimics Debian or Linux development organization. It earns hundreds of millions and can't keep pace with chrome.
I think you are comparing Apples with Oranges. Linux organizations are mostly done by volunteers and most of the infrastructure used is either donated or allocated in organizations which support their development. So any costs they have is for maintaining anything they really have to pay such as: legal, taxes etc...
On the other hand Mozilla has to pay for infrastructure (and here they have to support multiplatforms and multi OS developments), development, legal, taxes, marketing etc... etc.. It's not even comparable in any order of magnitude the costs involved.
If Mozilla would be to survive with volunteers would be even more miles ahead of other browsers. You can see Thunderbird as an example that Mozilla stopped maintaining since years the development pace slowed considerably.
On a side note: I really wish for the sake of the internet that Mozilla gets their s* together and start to improve their products to be really competitors to Chrome and Safari.
On the other hand Mozilla has to pay for infrastructure (and here they have to support multiplatforms and multi OS developments), development, legal, taxes, marketing etc... etc.. It's not even comparable in any order of magnitude the costs involved.
If Mozilla would be to survive with volunteers would be even more miles ahead of other browsers. You can see Thunderbird as an example that Mozilla stopped maintaining since years the development pace slowed considerably.
On a side note: I really wish for the sake of the internet that Mozilla gets their s* together and start to improve their products to be really competitors to Chrome and Safari.
Mozilla has had management problems for a long time. I don’t think this will change any time soon. Look at the latest 999 and highest salaries.
It is a foundation and chrome is a browser. You mean FF of course and it can compete very well with Chrome. I use both for development purposes and there are some minor strength and weekneses for both browsers. I use FF privately and for non-development purposes.
Generate a HTML doc with tables with 200.000 rows and columns with table cells with non-zero height/width and try to scroll fluidly on a tablet for example. Works in FF, works in Safari, doesn't work in Chrome.
True that there is historical baggage with HTML tables and maybe these optimizations aren't a good focus, but I doubt there are many website where all modern browser are at least competitive.
Generate a HTML doc with tables with 200.000 rows and columns with table cells with non-zero height/width and try to scroll fluidly on a tablet for example. Works in FF, works in Safari, doesn't work in Chrome.
True that there is historical baggage with HTML tables and maybe these optimizations aren't a good focus, but I doubt there are many website where all modern browser are at least competitive.
Actually firefox is faster at javascrupt that chrome.
That's like saying that emacs's LISP interpreter is faster than vim's vimscript interpreter.... Yeah, so what?
The performance-critical parts of vim are written in C. You can't say that about emacs. Or firefox.
The performance-critical parts of vim are written in C. You can't say that about emacs. Or firefox.
Webpages run faster in Firefox, that's why.
Why not? Firefox is mostly C, C++ and Rust.
The performance critical parts of emacs actually are written in C, such as the low-level primitive functions.
I think this just means Firefox isn't the priority of Mozilla
We have developed a tool for projects like Debian to distribute donations over larger projects. By distributing the donations in the dependencies, Debian could even attract new developers in its own dependencies:
https://github.com/protontypes/libreselery
NetBSD (with a lot less money in the bank and similarly bad bug trackers) has hired people using a few models in the past -- hourly, CoD, fixed-rate, etc but it's really the hiring itself that is so much trouble, just like in the real world! Not to mention doing "management" is also a total pain in the butt that someone now has to do for free.
The irony is that the people being hired are mostly already there doing work for free.
There is no way debian (or NetBSD) could pay market rate to compete for the time of anyone working on the project for very long so it's usually a motivational push or justification for sabbatical or "I have three months between contracts".
It's much much easier to buy hardware and things for developers who ask for it.
I suppose these projects are seeking developers with passion, personal wealth, and free time.
The irony is that the people being hired are mostly already there doing work for free.
There is no way debian (or NetBSD) could pay market rate to compete for the time of anyone working on the project for very long so it's usually a motivational push or justification for sabbatical or "I have three months between contracts".
It's much much easier to buy hardware and things for developers who ask for it.
I suppose these projects are seeking developers with passion, personal wealth, and free time.
Hiring people who would do it for free allowed them to work faster. It becomes there day job. I know of a few projects in FreeBSD where the author said I'm between contracts in a few weeks, you can pay me to do this work and it is done in a month, or I can find a new contract and the feature "that everyone wants" will be worked on in my spare time and done in 2 years.
Unless Debian has systematic discrimination for race or gender or whatever, I don't think there is a need to focus on "diversity" for its developers, NBA is a good example there and nobody complained. Improving certain area is fine, put it a priority for problems non-exist will do more harm than good. You do it because you like it or need it, not because of where you are from or who you are.
And yes $900K should be used to improve the situation, there might be some great developers actually need the money, or the money can get more young developer to start in debian.
And yes $900K should be used to improve the situation, there might be some great developers actually need the money, or the money can get more young developer to start in debian.
With the amount of government and corporate reliance on Debian derivates, the budget should literally be 100 times larger. Like $90 million instead of $900,000. Or maybe just $9 million. Then you have no trouble finding developers. You use money to get them. It works very well.
Part of the issue though I suspect may be the way packages work. I am just guessing but it may be the case that these volunteers are creating packages for lots of third party software and constantly fighting with incompatibility to upgrade them. Which seems like the third parties should be more involved with updating the packages.
But personally I think that even though snaps are so hated, the relative impossibility of keeping all packages up to date and similar issues is making things like Snaps or Flatpak make more and more sense as a general direction.
I don't know if Flatpak has a way to do compression or reuse layers like Docker but I wonder if it might eventually make sense to go in that direction.
Or another crazy idea: maybe it's possible to train an AI to resolve dependency or build issues and create packages. Maybe pretty far-fetched but when there are so many tens of thousands of packages I feel like you should start going for radical ideas.
Part of the issue though I suspect may be the way packages work. I am just guessing but it may be the case that these volunteers are creating packages for lots of third party software and constantly fighting with incompatibility to upgrade them. Which seems like the third parties should be more involved with updating the packages.
But personally I think that even though snaps are so hated, the relative impossibility of keeping all packages up to date and similar issues is making things like Snaps or Flatpak make more and more sense as a general direction.
I don't know if Flatpak has a way to do compression or reuse layers like Docker but I wonder if it might eventually make sense to go in that direction.
Or another crazy idea: maybe it's possible to train an AI to resolve dependency or build issues and create packages. Maybe pretty far-fetched but when there are so many tens of thousands of packages I feel like you should start going for radical ideas.
At the 1000ft view RedHat and Debian perform much the same function.
Debian has $900k in the bank. IBM purchased RedHat for $34B. The number's aren't directly comparable, but methinks a factor of 100 understates it.
Debian has $900k in the bank. IBM purchased RedHat for $34B. The number's aren't directly comparable, but methinks a factor of 100 understates it.
Plenty of money is always a relative term. If you think you have "plenty of money" but you don't have X, in reality you don't have plenty of money. There are exceptions like X=love, admiration, etc, but for most X, if you have plenty of money and a shortage of X, you just exchange some of your loads of money for X and you are good.
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Debian from the exterior sounds like the anti-corporate organization: flat hierarchy, top-notch democracy, self-directed work with almost no top-down guidance/"orders". And not so surprisingly, that also cause problems. Let's not forget the high barrier to entry for contributors.
It is complicated.
It is complicated.
https://nm.debian.org/faq/
"The site gives me 403 Forbidden errors if I disable referers"
yah cool faq, many questions answered.
"The site gives me 403 Forbidden errors if I disable referers"
yah cool faq, many questions answered.
if only there was some way to exchange money for labour.
I had to create a deb for a web app, it had to setup and populate a DB (from web sources), and manage updates for this db when you upgraded the deb. It had a build process of static files that couldn't be vendored. It has a lot of configuration to be entered prior those would happen, using debconf. It had to vendor a virtualenv. I had dependancies on 2 other web apps that had the same story, and they shared some config files.
I didn't chose this architecture. But I was tasked to package it so that people could just "apt get install stuff" and start using it.
It was HARD.
The tech is very old school, it doesn't give a lot of feedback, it's hard to debug, documentation is sparse and examples in the wild are not up to date, not to mention the state of tooling. And you do all that with shell scripting, the worst language for the job. Sure you can use anything else, if you like zero doc and example.
Then we had to distribute it.
Well, turns out creating an APT repo is not so easy, either.
Now, we did all that by cutting a lot of corners, zero red tape, and only us to please. Also, the consequences of not using best practices, or worst, breaking something, were few.
On a team of 6, only 2 were really understanding what was going on. The rest were lost, awaiting instructions from us because they just couldn't picture were their work would fit in this blob of bash workflow. Now that I'm gone, I have no idea how the team is going to maintain the thing.
I can't imagine doing the same thing with the level of road block working for something as sensitive as the official debian repo would bring.
If debian wants more contributors, they have to make this stuff way, way more accessible. And be friendlier with people telling them it's hard.
Every time I raised the topic, somebody came along to say I shouldn't be doing x or y. Or just that I shouldn't be packaging something and just publish it on the debian repo, letting the debian maintainers do the packaging. It's not going to bring me to work with the community if the first taste of it is the demonstration they completely ignore their shortcomings.
And I say that while I've been typing apt commands for a decade now. I'm also french. Debian is, with VLC, Libre Office and Firefox, one of the 4 pillars of FOSS for me.
I didn't chose this architecture. But I was tasked to package it so that people could just "apt get install stuff" and start using it.
It was HARD.
The tech is very old school, it doesn't give a lot of feedback, it's hard to debug, documentation is sparse and examples in the wild are not up to date, not to mention the state of tooling. And you do all that with shell scripting, the worst language for the job. Sure you can use anything else, if you like zero doc and example.
Then we had to distribute it.
Well, turns out creating an APT repo is not so easy, either.
Now, we did all that by cutting a lot of corners, zero red tape, and only us to please. Also, the consequences of not using best practices, or worst, breaking something, were few.
On a team of 6, only 2 were really understanding what was going on. The rest were lost, awaiting instructions from us because they just couldn't picture were their work would fit in this blob of bash workflow. Now that I'm gone, I have no idea how the team is going to maintain the thing.
I can't imagine doing the same thing with the level of road block working for something as sensitive as the official debian repo would bring.
If debian wants more contributors, they have to make this stuff way, way more accessible. And be friendlier with people telling them it's hard.
Every time I raised the topic, somebody came along to say I shouldn't be doing x or y. Or just that I shouldn't be packaging something and just publish it on the debian repo, letting the debian maintainers do the packaging. It's not going to bring me to work with the community if the first taste of it is the demonstration they completely ignore their shortcomings.
And I say that while I've been typing apt commands for a decade now. I'm also french. Debian is, with VLC, Libre Office and Firefox, one of the 4 pillars of FOSS for me.
Making deb _is_ painful, the politics of how packages are folded, bent, welded, drilled and smashed is not a simple landscape to navigate.
A lot of Docker is a response to how difficult it is to build packages and how invasive package installation is to the base system (Nix gets this right).
If in the future you need to build packages again, I'd take a look at fpm.
The goal of fpm is to make it easy and quick to build packages such as rpms, debs, OSX packages, etc.
https://fpm.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
https://github.com/jordansissel/fpm
A lot of Docker is a response to how difficult it is to build packages and how invasive package installation is to the base system (Nix gets this right).
If in the future you need to build packages again, I'd take a look at fpm.
The goal of fpm is to make it easy and quick to build packages such as rpms, debs, OSX packages, etc.
https://fpm.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
https://github.com/jordansissel/fpm
If LMDE picks up steam I’m sure that could change. Is the Ubuntu distro so different from Debian that those devs can’t simply work more on the upstream distro (or are Canonical devs not really doing much Linux work but userland/app work instead)?
$900k is not much. It's only enough for 4 developers for 1 year. If you don't spend the money the sponsors give you, the sponsors won't give you anymore.
rurban(1)
Why don't they hire Poettering to further make Linux unusable for hobbyists?
Because getting him do do that does not require paying him!
Badump-ching! I'm here all week, folks. Don't forget to tip your waitresses...
Badump-ching! I'm here all week, folks. Don't forget to tip your waitresses...
He works at RedHat, and i strongly believe they paying him.
>unusable for hobbyists
Why would any hobbyist wanna use Linux?
Why would any hobbyist wanna use Linux?
? because it's fun and it's free?
>because it's fun
Naaah not really, but hey tastes are different.
Naaah not really, but hey tastes are different.