Why do so many people want us back in the office?(paulitaylor.com)
paulitaylor.com
Why do so many people want us back in the office?
https://paulitaylor.com/2020/09/12/why-do-so-many-people-want-us-back-in-the-office/
623 comments
Most of these are what one might call "first order effects" - i.e. factors immediately associatable with work location. For prolonged situation, higher order effects are going to become more important.
Here are some candidates -
1. Improvement in city air quality due to reduced commute - road and flight.
2. Erosion of "social credits" over time due to lower bandwidth interactions when remote.
3. Cumulative impact of serendipitous but significant learning arising from in-person interactions.
4. Impact on the body - prolonged unmoderated sitting in bad postures, eye strain due to constant staring into the screen, bad eating habits, etc.
5. Reduction in sense of belonging / identity / cohesiveness as the "molecules" that make up a cell can move more freely through the "cell boundary".
6. Impact on cognitive development during early childhood - due to school-from-home and lack of social interactions. Joint family homes are great to counter this!
7. Eroding knowledge and awareness of local geography due to reduced travel. Reduced attachment here can lead to apathy when local environs get trashed.
Here are some candidates -
1. Improvement in city air quality due to reduced commute - road and flight.
2. Erosion of "social credits" over time due to lower bandwidth interactions when remote.
3. Cumulative impact of serendipitous but significant learning arising from in-person interactions.
4. Impact on the body - prolonged unmoderated sitting in bad postures, eye strain due to constant staring into the screen, bad eating habits, etc.
5. Reduction in sense of belonging / identity / cohesiveness as the "molecules" that make up a cell can move more freely through the "cell boundary".
6. Impact on cognitive development during early childhood - due to school-from-home and lack of social interactions. Joint family homes are great to counter this!
7. Eroding knowledge and awareness of local geography due to reduced travel. Reduced attachment here can lead to apathy when local environs get trashed.
Most of the points make sense, but this one does not
> Impact on the body - prolonged unmoderated sitting in bad postures, eye strain due to constant staring into the screen, bad eating habits, etc.
How does WFH change how you sit and the eye strain? You’re doing the same work, what changed? IMO having a good office setup (chair, device, screen, room lighting) is a must for any WFH position, but especially if it’s full-time.
Also for me, the food is better because in the office I used to eat snacks and go out in restaurants or fast foods. Now I mostly make food at home, and with the benefit of s garden have home-grown vegetables. So I eat better and spend less, plus I cut down the crap food from couple times a week to a few times in a month.
As I see it, the argument 4) applies only with refusing to invest into a proper working environment setup and with the lack of discipline. But I hardly believe someone with the lack of discipline would eat any better in the office. And I’m taking this from my past experience.
> Impact on the body - prolonged unmoderated sitting in bad postures, eye strain due to constant staring into the screen, bad eating habits, etc.
How does WFH change how you sit and the eye strain? You’re doing the same work, what changed? IMO having a good office setup (chair, device, screen, room lighting) is a must for any WFH position, but especially if it’s full-time.
Also for me, the food is better because in the office I used to eat snacks and go out in restaurants or fast foods. Now I mostly make food at home, and with the benefit of s garden have home-grown vegetables. So I eat better and spend less, plus I cut down the crap food from couple times a week to a few times in a month.
As I see it, the argument 4) applies only with refusing to invest into a proper working environment setup and with the lack of discipline. But I hardly believe someone with the lack of discipline would eat any better in the office. And I’m taking this from my past experience.
Most people don't have good WFH setup, that's one thing.
Two, WFH can mean less interruptions requiring you to move, resulting in far more sedentary behaviour than normal office work, even if you assume no difference in movement from commute.
Two, WFH can mean less interruptions requiring you to move, resulting in far more sedentary behaviour than normal office work, even if you assume no difference in movement from commute.
Competitive distributed companies already pay for your home office setup, and many people opt for better chairs and desks they would likely get in a normal office. I think for companies to stay competitive in a WFH environment, they will have to offer similar benefits.
The other point I agree with :)
The other point I agree with :)
Agreed.
For my situation, my home is better than office where could not code in standing (we don't have such culture) and has no place to walk around for thinking. And, at home, I could make lunch healthier with balanced nutrition when there are no good restaurants near my company.
For my situation, my home is better than office where could not code in standing (we don't have such culture) and has no place to walk around for thinking. And, at home, I could make lunch healthier with balanced nutrition when there are no good restaurants near my company.
When I went full time remote (last year, before COVID), I had comfort and strain issues. I attribute them to 2 main causes, that I've since mitigated:
1. I replaced my commute with more screen time. This was a net increase in my daily time spent at a computer. 2. My screen time was more contiguous. I didn't have to walk to my coworkers' desks for a quick chat (whether casual or work related). Meetings kept me at my desk instead of moving. My work day transitioned directly into my personal hobby time (video games).
1. I replaced my commute with more screen time. This was a net increase in my daily time spent at a computer. 2. My screen time was more contiguous. I didn't have to walk to my coworkers' desks for a quick chat (whether casual or work related). Meetings kept me at my desk instead of moving. My work day transitioned directly into my personal hobby time (video games).
I have a terrible setup at home. My office is extremely better set-up, and they spent several thousand dollars on seats, 32' monitors, etc.
Working on the crappy laptop and a kitchen chair is less than ideal - and the fact I was furloughed 4 months and ran out of savings means I can´t buy new stuff for WFH, not to mention it could end up being wasted money if I'm back in the office the next month.
And I'm not in the US so "used" stuff or other cheaper workarounds don't work for me (no "buy it from Amazon", there's no Amazon here)
Working on the crappy laptop and a kitchen chair is less than ideal - and the fact I was furloughed 4 months and ran out of savings means I can´t buy new stuff for WFH, not to mention it could end up being wasted money if I'm back in the office the next month.
And I'm not in the US so "used" stuff or other cheaper workarounds don't work for me (no "buy it from Amazon", there's no Amazon here)
> Impact on the body - prolonged unmoderated sitting in bad postures
Hey, this is me! I developed tendonitis in the shoulders from sitting in a lounge chair all day, and now I work with a physiotherapist who gave me funny looking exercises I do twice a day to retrain my body to get my hands behind my back (and other forms of shoulder mobility).
Ergo is not a joke, friends.
Hey, this is me! I developed tendonitis in the shoulders from sitting in a lounge chair all day, and now I work with a physiotherapist who gave me funny looking exercises I do twice a day to retrain my body to get my hands behind my back (and other forms of shoulder mobility).
Ergo is not a joke, friends.
Can confirm, after 9 months in my job I switched from regular keyboard and mouse to ergo versions as my right hand was killing me. Now I’m getting an ergo trackball too.
For years, everyone I know has made fun of me for the extreme ergo choices I've made in my workspaces, based on my needs. I've had a standing desk for over a decade, and I never sit down - purely because that works for me. I know someone else with the same setup, because at 4'11, she finally gets a desk she can lower to the proper height. I've been using the right keyboard/pointer combination for me since 2000, and I'll always continue to do so. Much like offices, there's no one size fits all - we really need to drop this idea.
Standind desks rock!! And you get the added bonus of wanted to minimize the (mostly unpaid) overtime!
> bad eating habits
I have much better food at home than whatever shit I can buy at or near the office.
I have much better food at home than whatever shit I can buy at or near the office.
> I have much better food at home
And it's probably also cheaper. For 5 € I can either buy a small lunch for myself, or cook for the entire family. With less salt, and more vegetables.
And it's probably also cheaper. For 5 € I can either buy a small lunch for myself, or cook for the entire family. With less salt, and more vegetables.
My mom has been working from her kitchen as that was the only room in her flat with a table. She's gained a lot of weight due to that. I told her to just buy the cheapest ugliest desk, but she wanted something that would look good in her living room. Now she has to buy a whole new wardrobe.
No offense, but number 7 sounds ridiculous to me.
What kind of awareness of local geography do people even cultivate on a 40 minute commute? You're going for speed and consistency, not novelty and aesthetics.
You see only a tiny amount of environs on your commute (most of it non local), and I'm not sure people develop that kind of relationship with the neighborhood at mile 38/49 that they'd care if it's trashed, whatever that means and however they'd notice.
I've had both long and short commutes, and I don't understand what you're talking about.
What kind of awareness of local geography do people even cultivate on a 40 minute commute? You're going for speed and consistency, not novelty and aesthetics.
You see only a tiny amount of environs on your commute (most of it non local), and I'm not sure people develop that kind of relationship with the neighborhood at mile 38/49 that they'd care if it's trashed, whatever that means and however they'd notice.
I've had both long and short commutes, and I don't understand what you're talking about.
>4. Impact on the body - prolonged unmoderated sitting in bad postures, eye strain due to constant staring into the screen, bad eating habits, etc.
I actually lost weight and improved my posture when WFH, and i do have better eating habbits now(being able to cook a warm not pre-ready meal for breakfast is a godsend)
I actually lost weight and improved my posture when WFH, and i do have better eating habbits now(being able to cook a warm not pre-ready meal for breakfast is a godsend)
> For prolonged situation, higher order effects are going to become more important.
More important for what? And for whom? Someone who just shaved 100% off of their 70-minute commute probably doesn't give a fuck that their awareness of the "local geography" (see: trash-draped blackberry bushes on the highway shoulder) is "eroding."
Some of your points are legit (particularly 6), but your dismissal of what you call "first order effects" is essentially just proving OP's meta-point about the terms in which the discussion is being held.
More important for what? And for whom? Someone who just shaved 100% off of their 70-minute commute probably doesn't give a fuck that their awareness of the "local geography" (see: trash-draped blackberry bushes on the highway shoulder) is "eroding."
Some of your points are legit (particularly 6), but your dismissal of what you call "first order effects" is essentially just proving OP's meta-point about the terms in which the discussion is being held.
"more important" than they are for short stints of the lockdown intervention.
I'm not dismissing first order effects. They are important. However higher order effects are where feedback cycles usually reside (ex: whats happening with climate change). So ignoring them is not a good idea even if during the initial phases it might seem like obsessing over details. In poorer countries, we can't ignore the risk of people dying due to hunger triggered by lockdown for covid19, for ex.
Public policy is hard and chock full of higher order effects. Common mental habits of super focused problem solvers don't help and can be downright bad to address such problems (ref: Dietrich Dorner's revealing book "The logic of failure").
Around my locality (Chennai, India) it is a very compelling argument that lack of awareness of local geography can be behind the dire water supply situation. For example, all localities with the name "pakkam" were originally in the vicinity of large water bodies .. nearly none of which are around today. Many localities were named after the dominant vegetation in the area, which you won't see any signs of today.
Yeah the commute is probably not going to help much because the commuters will likely be on their phones or cursing the increased traffic due to the need to be in offices. Feedback loops start that way.
I'm not dismissing first order effects. They are important. However higher order effects are where feedback cycles usually reside (ex: whats happening with climate change). So ignoring them is not a good idea even if during the initial phases it might seem like obsessing over details. In poorer countries, we can't ignore the risk of people dying due to hunger triggered by lockdown for covid19, for ex.
Public policy is hard and chock full of higher order effects. Common mental habits of super focused problem solvers don't help and can be downright bad to address such problems (ref: Dietrich Dorner's revealing book "The logic of failure").
Around my locality (Chennai, India) it is a very compelling argument that lack of awareness of local geography can be behind the dire water supply situation. For example, all localities with the name "pakkam" were originally in the vicinity of large water bodies .. nearly none of which are around today. Many localities were named after the dominant vegetation in the area, which you won't see any signs of today.
Yeah the commute is probably not going to help much because the commuters will likely be on their phones or cursing the increased traffic due to the need to be in offices. Feedback loops start that way.
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> whats happening with climate change
I'm not aware of any particular evidence that "second order effects" are driving climate change or causing feedback cycles. But I suppose it depends how you define it. What do you have in mind here?
I'm not aware of any particular evidence that "second order effects" are driving climate change or causing feedback cycles. But I suppose it depends how you define it. What do you have in mind here?
Not the OP, but I've got a pretty concrete example of how these effects can potentially slow down human-driven climate change, which is what they were likely referring to.
An immediate first-order effect is a lack of air travel.
A resulting second-order effect will be the eventual shift in aircraft buying trends, pricing, scheduling, etc. to adjust to diminished air travel, something that cements more concretely the travel patterns we're adopting during the pandemic. Examples may include smaller but more fuel efficient planes, but also potentially ordering far less of them (we're seeing this now - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-american-airline-outlook/...) as well as possibly shifting seat availability in favor of business and premium classes to extract more value from people who do fly...
...which loops (to the OP's point) back into keeping more people from flying as a third-order effect.
---
Et voila, significantly reduced air travel and a significant aid in our fight against climate change.
An immediate first-order effect is a lack of air travel.
A resulting second-order effect will be the eventual shift in aircraft buying trends, pricing, scheduling, etc. to adjust to diminished air travel, something that cements more concretely the travel patterns we're adopting during the pandemic. Examples may include smaller but more fuel efficient planes, but also potentially ordering far less of them (we're seeing this now - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-american-airline-outlook/...) as well as possibly shifting seat availability in favor of business and premium classes to extract more value from people who do fly...
...which loops (to the OP's point) back into keeping more people from flying as a third-order effect.
---
Et voila, significantly reduced air travel and a significant aid in our fight against climate change.
So, to me,the dominant effect here is less demand for air travel->fewer flights. Fewer flights means less carbon emitted. Any knock-on effects seem to pale in comparison because air travel is so carbon intensive.
If fewer flights is a "second order" effect here, I'd struggle to name anything that is a first order effect. I don't really think this is what the person I was responding to was talking about when they mentioned second order effects. But if it was then I question the usefulness of the terminology.
If fewer flights is a "second order" effect here, I'd struggle to name anything that is a first order effect. I don't really think this is what the person I was responding to was talking about when they mentioned second order effects. But if it was then I question the usefulness of the terminology.
> So, to me,the dominant effect here is less demand for air travel->fewer flights. Fewer flights means less carbon emitted. Any knock-on effects seem to pale in comparison because air travel is so carbon intensive.
> If fewer flights is a "second order" effect here, I'd struggle to name anything that is a first order effect. I don't really think this is what the person I was responding to was talking about when they mentioned second order effects. But if it was then I question the usefulness of the terminology.
I'm confused; I don't see how your interpretation arises from what I laid out.
I'll see if I can rephrase and clarify.
The first order effect is that less people are flying specifically because of the pandemic. This doesn't immediately result in fewer flights because air schedules are meticulously planned in order to maintain specific routes, which is why oftentimes at the beginning of the pandemic many planes were flying almost entirely devoid of passengers. In essence, the airlines were hemorrhaging money because their flight schedules were planned months/years in advance by anticipating certain flight loads, and all of that was turned sideways in less than 6 weeks.
The second order effect is that airlines start factoring in the risk of a protracted outbreak with no foreseeable end and therefore start making longer-term strategic decisions adjusting to the sustained (years-long) impact of less flights being booked. New routes, canceled routes, different purchasing decisions for planes, different decisions around how to equip those planes and for which classes of clients, folding some operations in some cities altogether, consolidating operations, etc., and these changes will likely result in airlines having to extract more value from the fewer passengers who do have to fly....
> ...which loops (to the OP's point) back into keeping more people from flying as a third-order effect.
...and therefore potentially contributes towards sustained reduced impact on the environment due to less flights being flown globally, greater fuel efficiency of new jets, and less fuel being burned as a result of both.
Hope this helps.
> If fewer flights is a "second order" effect here, I'd struggle to name anything that is a first order effect. I don't really think this is what the person I was responding to was talking about when they mentioned second order effects. But if it was then I question the usefulness of the terminology.
I'm confused; I don't see how your interpretation arises from what I laid out.
I'll see if I can rephrase and clarify.
The first order effect is that less people are flying specifically because of the pandemic. This doesn't immediately result in fewer flights because air schedules are meticulously planned in order to maintain specific routes, which is why oftentimes at the beginning of the pandemic many planes were flying almost entirely devoid of passengers. In essence, the airlines were hemorrhaging money because their flight schedules were planned months/years in advance by anticipating certain flight loads, and all of that was turned sideways in less than 6 weeks.
The second order effect is that airlines start factoring in the risk of a protracted outbreak with no foreseeable end and therefore start making longer-term strategic decisions adjusting to the sustained (years-long) impact of less flights being booked. New routes, canceled routes, different purchasing decisions for planes, different decisions around how to equip those planes and for which classes of clients, folding some operations in some cities altogether, consolidating operations, etc., and these changes will likely result in airlines having to extract more value from the fewer passengers who do have to fly....
> ...which loops (to the OP's point) back into keeping more people from flying as a third-order effect.
...and therefore potentially contributes towards sustained reduced impact on the environment due to less flights being flown globally, greater fuel efficiency of new jets, and less fuel being burned as a result of both.
Hope this helps.
> This doesn't immediately result in fewer flights because air schedules are meticulously planned in order to maintain specific routes
That's all well and good, but in fact the pandemic did essentially immediately result in fewer flights. Flights started getting cancelled within days of lockdowns starting in NYC. If this is a second order effect, then everything is a second order effect. Reduction in travel demand is a second order effect of the pandemic. The pandemic is a second order effect of globalization. Globalization is a second order effect of trade efficiency. Trade efficiency is a second order effect of air travel. Etc. It's not a useful terminology.
That's all well and good, but in fact the pandemic did essentially immediately result in fewer flights. Flights started getting cancelled within days of lockdowns starting in NYC. If this is a second order effect, then everything is a second order effect. Reduction in travel demand is a second order effect of the pandemic. The pandemic is a second order effect of globalization. Globalization is a second order effect of trade efficiency. Trade efficiency is a second order effect of air travel. Etc. It's not a useful terminology.
Flight cancellations that took place were ones that were required as a consequence of government actions or were able to be done because they didn't disrupt routing, e.g. those planes were not necessarily expected to be at their subsequent destinations.
That's first-order. You can reference my prior post for the distinction between this and long-term re-working of tactical and strategic decisions (second-order)
Not sure how else I can explain this to you mate. The original commenter and I seem to get it.
That's first-order. You can reference my prior post for the distinction between this and long-term re-working of tactical and strategic decisions (second-order)
Not sure how else I can explain this to you mate. The original commenter and I seem to get it.
> The original commenter and I seem to get it.
Plenty of times, multiple people have had agreement on a belief that is ultimately incorrect. Before you crow, see how the air travel landscape looks in five years. I predict, assuming the pandemic is resolved, it will have fully recovered and passed the 2019 peak.
Plenty of times, multiple people have had agreement on a belief that is ultimately incorrect. Before you crow, see how the air travel landscape looks in five years. I predict, assuming the pandemic is resolved, it will have fully recovered and passed the 2019 peak.
I found their overall response to be thoughtful and objective, and painted an overview of the situation.
I found your response to hone in on one detail and contribute nothing useful to the conversation.
I found your response to hone in on one detail and contribute nothing useful to the conversation.
Also, office buildings are rented from realtor investors and this big fat chunk of real estate is looking extremely superfluous and vulnerable right now
> Impact on the body - prolonged unmoderated sitting in bad postures, eye strain due to constant staring into the screen, bad eating habits, etc.
Yep, offices have a terrible impact on people. Working from home gives you the opportunity to eat better, have far fewer snacks thrust in your face, and to get.out and exercise at lunch.
I spend much more time in my local environs now I don't have to travel away from them each day.
Yep, offices have a terrible impact on people. Working from home gives you the opportunity to eat better, have far fewer snacks thrust in your face, and to get.out and exercise at lunch.
I spend much more time in my local environs now I don't have to travel away from them each day.
And further complicated by the fact the the same person may want different things at different stages in their life. Ive evolved, like many in my workplace, to be on site in the office as needed, occasionally (we work in hardware). We've learned to do most everything from home, with a few on site activities as needed.
Many of the comments on discussions such as these give me the impression that people are not considering this when they write, or at the very least omitting it.
I'm a college student graduating next year, and I just finished my first substantial internship ever in a remote arrangement. The past twelve weeks were my first real experience in my professional environment of interest, but I'm not even sure if I can call it that. I did the best I could and completed three of four of my projects, one of which was a competition where my team placed. But this was despite reassignment from my preferred original projects (in a physical lab), productivity, and general morale suffering immensely from pretty much every restriction COVID and the California wildfires have wrought on us.
I'm a young guy in the process of building myself in nearly every way. I have more "potential" than I do domain knowledge and wisdom. I'm less disciplined. I feel a huge need to get out into the world and see people in places to develop my career and every type of relationship. These have all been harder to work on in the current climate.
So when I see people extolling anecdotal virtues of no commute or not having to bother with seeing their coworker's faces in response to comments explaining why people may like the office, I get annoyed. I've literally never seen a single colleague of mine in real life or had a chance to get bored of my commute, and it was not a choice for me. Yes, adapting as things come is important. That doesn't change the assertion my demographic will have likely been more impacted by this when the smoke clears. I haven't had nearly as much opportunity as these people may have taken for granted in situating themselves so they can presently bank on their know-how and established relationships until we are out of this crisis. I hope my experiences in this regard will not be as bad as I go for full-time after I finish school in June.
I'm a college student graduating next year, and I just finished my first substantial internship ever in a remote arrangement. The past twelve weeks were my first real experience in my professional environment of interest, but I'm not even sure if I can call it that. I did the best I could and completed three of four of my projects, one of which was a competition where my team placed. But this was despite reassignment from my preferred original projects (in a physical lab), productivity, and general morale suffering immensely from pretty much every restriction COVID and the California wildfires have wrought on us.
I'm a young guy in the process of building myself in nearly every way. I have more "potential" than I do domain knowledge and wisdom. I'm less disciplined. I feel a huge need to get out into the world and see people in places to develop my career and every type of relationship. These have all been harder to work on in the current climate.
So when I see people extolling anecdotal virtues of no commute or not having to bother with seeing their coworker's faces in response to comments explaining why people may like the office, I get annoyed. I've literally never seen a single colleague of mine in real life or had a chance to get bored of my commute, and it was not a choice for me. Yes, adapting as things come is important. That doesn't change the assertion my demographic will have likely been more impacted by this when the smoke clears. I haven't had nearly as much opportunity as these people may have taken for granted in situating themselves so they can presently bank on their know-how and established relationships until we are out of this crisis. I hope my experiences in this regard will not be as bad as I go for full-time after I finish school in June.
InertBrake - well done on your internship :)
As someone who's been through internships and many years of in office work this is worrying me too.
Our junior colleagues coming in without the little things they would get from sitting in a room with everyone else.
Without team lunches and social events. Because it's not direct impact this is hard to reason about and create artificially.
I chose to work remotely full time 4 years ago and I have to rely on my past years of experience quite a lot.
What I do see is that excellent mentors and senior colleagues still find a way to mentor less experienced colleagues. It just takes conscious effort from both sides and we need to support both sides more in this.
I'm very keen to study this in my teams and use the learnt experience to raise the base level.
As someone who's been through internships and many years of in office work this is worrying me too.
Our junior colleagues coming in without the little things they would get from sitting in a room with everyone else.
Without team lunches and social events. Because it's not direct impact this is hard to reason about and create artificially.
I chose to work remotely full time 4 years ago and I have to rely on my past years of experience quite a lot.
What I do see is that excellent mentors and senior colleagues still find a way to mentor less experienced colleagues. It just takes conscious effort from both sides and we need to support both sides more in this.
I'm very keen to study this in my teams and use the learnt experience to raise the base level.
I feel absolutely terrible for all of our interns and new-grad hires this year, as they -- like you -- are getting a bizarre experience that we're not at all prepared to do properly, as we've just never done it this way before.
As someone who's later in his career, I'm totally fine and happy working from home (and was doing that most of the time pre-pandemic anyway), but if I look back to my early-/mid-20s and think about all the in-person mentorship I'd gotten, and how much I learned just by physically being in the presence of other people with more experience than I... I'm really worried about how we're going to effectively mentor a new generation of colleagues if we have to keep up this reduced amount of interaction.
Now, we do need to be careful to not equate the current situation with what "minimum office" might look like outside a pandemic situation. If we were all working from home but didn't have to isolate and socially distance ourselves, we'd still greet our interns and new employees with lunches and other outings, and we'd have plenty of random get-togethers in parks and bars. And I'd expect we'd come up with ways to get more-senior folks in the same room with the newcomers on a regular basis during the work day, whether in a co-working space or just a sparsely-populated office.
So really, it just sucks right now, but won't always. I know that's little consolation for you and those like you, who are entering into this mess before we've figured out how to do it right. I do expect things to be a bit better next summer after you graduate, but I'm sure there will be plenty of rough edges.
As someone who's later in his career, I'm totally fine and happy working from home (and was doing that most of the time pre-pandemic anyway), but if I look back to my early-/mid-20s and think about all the in-person mentorship I'd gotten, and how much I learned just by physically being in the presence of other people with more experience than I... I'm really worried about how we're going to effectively mentor a new generation of colleagues if we have to keep up this reduced amount of interaction.
Now, we do need to be careful to not equate the current situation with what "minimum office" might look like outside a pandemic situation. If we were all working from home but didn't have to isolate and socially distance ourselves, we'd still greet our interns and new employees with lunches and other outings, and we'd have plenty of random get-togethers in parks and bars. And I'd expect we'd come up with ways to get more-senior folks in the same room with the newcomers on a regular basis during the work day, whether in a co-working space or just a sparsely-populated office.
So really, it just sucks right now, but won't always. I know that's little consolation for you and those like you, who are entering into this mess before we've figured out how to do it right. I do expect things to be a bit better next summer after you graduate, but I'm sure there will be plenty of rough edges.
I frequently thought, even before the current situation, that much as I've been happily mostly remote for something like 15 years now, it's hard for me to imagine being in that situation when I was starting out.
Sure, communications tools and practices were a lot different then. But, even so, it's difficult for me to see starting out working from my apartment.
Sure, communications tools and practices were a lot different then. But, even so, it's difficult for me to see starting out working from my apartment.
Right now you can idealize what you anticipate the social interactions in a work setting will be because you haven't yet experienced it (for any extended period of time at least.)
I'm glad you pointed that out as I definitely have thought of this before, and I obviously can't understand it in all the ways it may be meant yet. Recent conversations with my dad (also in the industry) have shown me just as much how there is still much in the planning and development environment I have misperceptions or lack of perspective on.
Just as everyone experiences some level of shock at the start of university for what it is truly like, I expect the same for my transition into the workforce, and that it may take a long time. It took me until last November of last year to truly fall into a groove in college, and that was in normal times. The harder recent period has been a strange juxtaposition for me of adult responsibilities with the stuck-at-homeness of my teens. In essence, it felt as if my life regressed in every way with the exception of a regular paycheck.
It's all the more jarring when you consider that my time at college was derailed in March just as I was the most at peace, capable, and ready to build others up around me. Now, I'll likely never see that environment again. I have lots of unfinished work in the labs and CS/CE student community which can only be realized in a diminished extent now. There are countless people I never had a chance to say goodbye to. I sadly expect my own graduation to be virtual like the class of 2020's.
In summary, I understand reality will rarely align with expectations. Sacrifice and adversity can be expected, and thus far I have been fortunate to have not lost anything truly irreplacible. However, there is room to lament lost plans and opportunity. That wave of momentum and self-esteem I managed to climb to the crest of towards the end of my in-person college experience will have to be rebuilt. I am and shall overcome the times we live in now, but it is also not unclear to me what I could have done and became if the pandemic didn't happen.
Just as everyone experiences some level of shock at the start of university for what it is truly like, I expect the same for my transition into the workforce, and that it may take a long time. It took me until last November of last year to truly fall into a groove in college, and that was in normal times. The harder recent period has been a strange juxtaposition for me of adult responsibilities with the stuck-at-homeness of my teens. In essence, it felt as if my life regressed in every way with the exception of a regular paycheck.
It's all the more jarring when you consider that my time at college was derailed in March just as I was the most at peace, capable, and ready to build others up around me. Now, I'll likely never see that environment again. I have lots of unfinished work in the labs and CS/CE student community which can only be realized in a diminished extent now. There are countless people I never had a chance to say goodbye to. I sadly expect my own graduation to be virtual like the class of 2020's.
In summary, I understand reality will rarely align with expectations. Sacrifice and adversity can be expected, and thus far I have been fortunate to have not lost anything truly irreplacible. However, there is room to lament lost plans and opportunity. That wave of momentum and self-esteem I managed to climb to the crest of towards the end of my in-person college experience will have to be rebuilt. I am and shall overcome the times we live in now, but it is also not unclear to me what I could have done and became if the pandemic didn't happen.
While everything you listed is a factor, My experience it normally comes down to if you have a actual home office or not.
People that have the luxury of a dedicated office at home, an actual room that is just used as an office, not a corner of the kitchen or living room that has the "family desk" that everyone shares, is more apt for WFH
I know many people that do not have this space, and do not have the ability to create this space in their home. For them WFH is a challenge.
On the other hand, people like myself that do have a dedicated office space that is in many ways better than the office space at the commercial office find WFH to be great and prefer it, even when factoring in your list.
In my office I would say it was about 60-70% of people that preferred working in the office and did not want to work from home primarily because they did not have a dedicated working space nor could easily create one.
People that have the luxury of a dedicated office at home, an actual room that is just used as an office, not a corner of the kitchen or living room that has the "family desk" that everyone shares, is more apt for WFH
I know many people that do not have this space, and do not have the ability to create this space in their home. For them WFH is a challenge.
On the other hand, people like myself that do have a dedicated office space that is in many ways better than the office space at the commercial office find WFH to be great and prefer it, even when factoring in your list.
In my office I would say it was about 60-70% of people that preferred working in the office and did not want to work from home primarily because they did not have a dedicated working space nor could easily create one.
That’s not the only factor. I have a home office and can’t wait to get back. I work in an industry that’s all about relationships and those are hard to build remotely. I just started a new role and there’s no way I could ever progress upward in this state.
I am definitely not the person to address building relationships, I suck at it, that is why I work with computers not people...
that said I think you can build in remotely, even the people I am in the same office with 70-80% of our communications is over Chat, Phone, or Email anyway. Why walk 10 feet to the persons office when I can just message them on slack or teams?
that said I think you can build in remotely, even the people I am in the same office with 70-80% of our communications is over Chat, Phone, or Email anyway. Why walk 10 feet to the persons office when I can just message them on slack or teams?
Because hearing you laugh when I make a joke makes me far happier than seeing you react with :joy:.
Until our brains' reward circuits are retrained to interpret those emoji reactions the same way we currently interpret genuine in-person laughter.
We (and our ancestors) have been laughing for at least 6 million years (MRCA of Homo & Pan).
I don’t doubt that one day our descendants will prefer something else than laughing. I doubt it will happen in my lifetime though.
I don’t doubt that one day our descendants will prefer something else than laughing. I doubt it will happen in my lifetime though.
I find that a colourful emoji like [hmm, HN can't display an emoji] feels very different from a text emoticon or tag.
It's such an illusion, too - the sender doesn't even see the same emoji character as I do because of different fonts and devices. Some emojis look sad or angry on some devices, and smiling on others. There's plenty of room for misinterpretation.
But it adds feeling anyway!
It's such an illusion, too - the sender doesn't even see the same emoji character as I do because of different fonts and devices. Some emojis look sad or angry on some devices, and smiling on others. There's plenty of room for misinterpretation.
But it adds feeling anyway!
> Why walk 10 feet to the persons office when I can just message them on slack or teams?
Privacy. Human interaction element. If all your interaction is online at your work - good for you. It isn't for my work environment.
Some of my coworkers have taken to giving me their phone number so that we can talk outside Slack because they worry that Slack is being watched now. Some of my coworkers and I used to go on 1:1 walks around the office area to get a breath of fresh air but also to have private discussions. We can't do that the same way anymore. I talked to one on the phone recently but it's not the same - you can't see every bit of their emotion as it is conveyed. Video doesn't do this justice either - how often are people going to show you a nervous fidget they're doing off screen that indicates they're under a lot of stress?
It depends on the type of place you're at. If you're at a great place where everything is just a rocket ship, everyone is in love with their work, and everyone's boss is just a stellar human being who really has high regard for their subordinates - then whatever. But - that's not been the case at any company I've ever worked at. So, :shrug:
Privacy. Human interaction element. If all your interaction is online at your work - good for you. It isn't for my work environment.
Some of my coworkers have taken to giving me their phone number so that we can talk outside Slack because they worry that Slack is being watched now. Some of my coworkers and I used to go on 1:1 walks around the office area to get a breath of fresh air but also to have private discussions. We can't do that the same way anymore. I talked to one on the phone recently but it's not the same - you can't see every bit of their emotion as it is conveyed. Video doesn't do this justice either - how often are people going to show you a nervous fidget they're doing off screen that indicates they're under a lot of stress?
It depends on the type of place you're at. If you're at a great place where everything is just a rocket ship, everyone is in love with their work, and everyone's boss is just a stellar human being who really has high regard for their subordinates - then whatever. But - that's not been the case at any company I've ever worked at. So, :shrug:
>> Privacy. Some of my coworkers have taken to giving me their phone number so that we can talk outside Slack because they worry that Slack is being watched now.
This is one factor I should consider more, I (among others) control our companies communications platforms so I know the security, who has access, what they can see (and cant see) etc.
If I was not on that team this may also be a factor for me.
as to emotions... Again this is why I work on computers.. I take a Vulcan outlook to emotions.
This is one factor I should consider more, I (among others) control our companies communications platforms so I know the security, who has access, what they can see (and cant see) etc.
If I was not on that team this may also be a factor for me.
as to emotions... Again this is why I work on computers.. I take a Vulcan outlook to emotions.
I don't know why you're being downvoted. It's a valid opinion that I happen to share. I have a great home office but I still want to be around other humans.
Because we don't have stats on what % of home-office owners want to go back to work and there's no way of knowing whether his anecdote is just a token exception, or a representation of a larger outlier. Maybe 1% of home-office owners want to go back to work, maybe 49%. The comment's anecdote doesn't do anything.
More importantly, the comment has nothing but an anecdote that's attempting to make a statement on what the stats will probably be. There's no fact-based discussion possible, only whether you think the anecdote is "representative" or not. Which you have to decide based on your prior beliefs, because the post doesn't contain new information ("X population has nonzero people who disagree on belief Y" is not new information).
I guess I should ask: what discussion could be had around this anecdote, other than "guess the % who agree"?
More importantly, the comment has nothing but an anecdote that's attempting to make a statement on what the stats will probably be. There's no fact-based discussion possible, only whether you think the anecdote is "representative" or not. Which you have to decide based on your prior beliefs, because the post doesn't contain new information ("X population has nonzero people who disagree on belief Y" is not new information).
I guess I should ask: what discussion could be had around this anecdote, other than "guess the % who agree"?
What do you do?
I work in financial services advising corporations on financial transactions.
I think the current WFH and restrictions are especially hard on the sales teams. No more client dinners, golf, or travel for a demo, and it's much harder to make the relationship over phone or zoom. Plus, the handshake is missing.
Doesn't this put everyone on an equal footing? You can't take your client for golf or shake hands, but neither can your competitor.
Though I can imagine a scenario where it's equally bad for everyone. For example, if the client needs an in-person demo to understand how the widget works or to be convinced that it's useful, but no seller is offering an in-person demo, then the client may decide to not buy it from anybody.
Though I can imagine a scenario where it's equally bad for everyone. For example, if the client needs an in-person demo to understand how the widget works or to be convinced that it's useful, but no seller is offering an in-person demo, then the client may decide to not buy it from anybody.
> Doesn't this put everyone on an equal footing
Maybe it does, but that doesn't make people's job that were heavily relationship-focussed more enjoyable
Maybe it does, but that doesn't make people's job that were heavily relationship-focussed more enjoyable
My guess is sales people who’ve already established relationships pre WFH get all the sales and upstarts are unable to make inroads with new clients.
Maybe the structure in that industry has to change to provide value directly?
some bosses have an instinctive feeling that people working in the office are more productive
some bosses themselves work best in the office with people around.
some bosses themselves work best in the office with people around.
There's lots of reasons why individuals themselves might want or not want to go back in the office.
What is more complicated is why they want to take everyone else with them. My own employer is letting some people come back in the office but not insisting on it.
And all of this in the context of the trilemma: try for zero virus, accept total spread with associated medical costs, time off, deaths, and potential long term complications, or delay until the vaccines are ready and being deployed.
What is more complicated is why they want to take everyone else with them. My own employer is letting some people come back in the office but not insisting on it.
And all of this in the context of the trilemma: try for zero virus, accept total spread with associated medical costs, time off, deaths, and potential long term complications, or delay until the vaccines are ready and being deployed.
>What is more complicated is why they want to take everyone else with them.
Probably because what other people do affects them.
If everyone else on their team comes back to the office and they choose not to, that's probably not an ideal situation.
Conversely, if they come back to the office and most of the people they work with don't, they're now effectively in a co-working situation where the office is just a physical space and they'll still be on video meetings all the time.
Probably because what other people do affects them.
If everyone else on their team comes back to the office and they choose not to, that's probably not an ideal situation.
Conversely, if they come back to the office and most of the people they work with don't, they're now effectively in a co-working situation where the office is just a physical space and they'll still be on video meetings all the time.
One of the things I would struggle with is progression.
In my current job I'm progressing quickly and have built good relationships with my colleagues. We can take a break and just turn around and chat for 10 minutes about random stuff. When everyone is working from home it's not like I could just call someone and chat to them because I don't know if they're busy or not. I can't build the same sort of relationships as I can in person.
I'm quite introverted in a way that I find it hard to go out of my way and make friends. But the longer I spend with people in person, the easier it is and I find that I'm able to get along with almost everyone I meet.
And as with most things, it's not really what you know, it's who you know. And knowing someone IRL is much better than knowing someone remote.
In my current job I'm progressing quickly and have built good relationships with my colleagues. We can take a break and just turn around and chat for 10 minutes about random stuff. When everyone is working from home it's not like I could just call someone and chat to them because I don't know if they're busy or not. I can't build the same sort of relationships as I can in person.
I'm quite introverted in a way that I find it hard to go out of my way and make friends. But the longer I spend with people in person, the easier it is and I find that I'm able to get along with almost everyone I meet.
And as with most things, it's not really what you know, it's who you know. And knowing someone IRL is much better than knowing someone remote.
> When everyone is working from home it's not like I could just call someone and chat to them because I don't know if they're busy or not
I don't really see what the issue is. In my company if we want to chat we simply ask on Slack "can we have a call?", and the other person either says 'ok' or 'call me later'. Most conversations happen over async chat, which is great if you are waiting for something to compile (Scala...).
How do you do it in an office setting? Would you go over to a person wearing headphones and starting telling them about your weekend?
I don't really see what the issue is. In my company if we want to chat we simply ask on Slack "can we have a call?", and the other person either says 'ok' or 'call me later'. Most conversations happen over async chat, which is great if you are waiting for something to compile (Scala...).
How do you do it in an office setting? Would you go over to a person wearing headphones and starting telling them about your weekend?
> Some people have long commutes and wfh is great
This is exactly my situation, it takes me two hours of commute per day to get in the office, and the housing is prohibitively expensive the closer you get to it.
My quality of life is significantly improved by WFH, which leaves me with more quality time with my kids and to cook.
This is exactly my situation, it takes me two hours of commute per day to get in the office, and the housing is prohibitively expensive the closer you get to it.
My quality of life is significantly improved by WFH, which leaves me with more quality time with my kids and to cook.
The office model is based on the factory model, which was constrained by the need to have people, machinery, and raw materials in the same location.
Offices don't require that. All the soft benefits - water cooler chats, and so on - are balanced by disbenefits of expensive commutes and even more expensive real estate.
So the experience becomes a lot more individual. Some people are happy, others aren't.
Since most corps care more about productivity and costs than happiness, the final decision will be made by the cost savings.
If productivity drops by (maybe) 20% while costs drop by (maybe) 50%, it's likely wfh will become much more of a thing.
Some corps are already giving up on centralised office space - either permanently, or in the hope they can run remote for a year or two and renegotiate much lower rents and/or ownerships costs then.
Of course this assumes the (maybe) 20% productivity costs won't be cumulative. But given the insane costs of office space, I suspect we'll see a lot of corps trying the experiment and attempting to make the best of it.
So IMO anyone who is expecting things to go back to "normal" soon is going to be waiting at least a couple of years, and possibly forever - and should make plans accordingly. This applies equally to everyone, from CEOs to interns to freelancers.
Offices don't require that. All the soft benefits - water cooler chats, and so on - are balanced by disbenefits of expensive commutes and even more expensive real estate.
So the experience becomes a lot more individual. Some people are happy, others aren't.
Since most corps care more about productivity and costs than happiness, the final decision will be made by the cost savings.
If productivity drops by (maybe) 20% while costs drop by (maybe) 50%, it's likely wfh will become much more of a thing.
Some corps are already giving up on centralised office space - either permanently, or in the hope they can run remote for a year or two and renegotiate much lower rents and/or ownerships costs then.
Of course this assumes the (maybe) 20% productivity costs won't be cumulative. But given the insane costs of office space, I suspect we'll see a lot of corps trying the experiment and attempting to make the best of it.
So IMO anyone who is expecting things to go back to "normal" soon is going to be waiting at least a couple of years, and possibly forever - and should make plans accordingly. This applies equally to everyone, from CEOs to interns to freelancers.
sorry nuance like this doesn't fit in a headline this just won't work /s
>Cities are nervous that business districts are devastated since no one buys coffee, lunches or walks home and steps into a shoe store or tailor, or to a bar for drinks with colleagues.
I think this is more true than a lot of people think/or care to make known.
I know the business district in my city, Nashville, is hurting right now.
I think this is more true than a lot of people think/or care to make known.
I know the business district in my city, Nashville, is hurting right now.
> business district
There’s the problem.
Turns out, when city is of a type of mixed use and walkability such that you live above (or a trolly ride away from) where you work, working at work or working at home don’t meaningfully change city viability.
There’s the problem.
Turns out, when city is of a type of mixed use and walkability such that you live above (or a trolly ride away from) where you work, working at work or working at home don’t meaningfully change city viability.
I just want to take a nap in the afternoon.
Why not present them in black and white ways?
Greyness comes with crafting a collage of black and white?
Why must my personal position take into account a composite greyness if it means being put into an office setting I am not productive in?
Why bend myself to an arbitrary greyness?
Our social laws should acknowledge the greyness and avoid empowering a uni-culture that leans towards one choice? Efficiency != resiliency.
Rather than commit to the one size fits all dragged in the direction of currency holders. Complete lack of acceptance a nations currency is propped up by the greyness in opinions
I don’t care who has memorized what facts. The fact remains they’re not a god
Greyness comes with crafting a collage of black and white?
Why must my personal position take into account a composite greyness if it means being put into an office setting I am not productive in?
Why bend myself to an arbitrary greyness?
Our social laws should acknowledge the greyness and avoid empowering a uni-culture that leans towards one choice? Efficiency != resiliency.
Rather than commit to the one size fits all dragged in the direction of currency holders. Complete lack of acceptance a nations currency is propped up by the greyness in opinions
I don’t care who has memorized what facts. The fact remains they’re not a god
> Some people are dissatisfied with the online interactions and prefer to talk to humans and not text strings from humans they can't see or hear
I think this is easily resolved by audio / video calls. All of my coworkers are significantly older than me and have no issue communicating this way.
I dont mind commuting but I dont want to commute as often. I think my sweet spot would be to commute around noon once traffics no longer crazy and go back home after traffic dies down but the more I think about that the more I feel like driving altogether is a waste. I prefer to only commute when we all decide to be onsite to discuss something and work through it.
I think this is easily resolved by audio / video calls. All of my coworkers are significantly older than me and have no issue communicating this way.
I dont mind commuting but I dont want to commute as often. I think my sweet spot would be to commute around noon once traffics no longer crazy and go back home after traffic dies down but the more I think about that the more I feel like driving altogether is a waste. I prefer to only commute when we all decide to be onsite to discuss something and work through it.
Video calls are not remotely (no pun intended) the same as meeting face to face. In the office I can casually joke with the person sitting next to me, and it is usually visually evident when they are busy and I shouldn't bother them. If we both need a break, we can take a short walk, go for a lunch together or something. Video calls are limited, akward and uncomfortable compared to that. Video calls have their place but they are not the same thing.
We mostly do audio calls and get to the meat of what we need, sometimes I get informal and nothing is wrong with that, you can still gauge if someone is busy by how they respond or if they seem distracted. Every office is differently but we've always had two or three people working remotely so the transition is nothing special for most of us.
On another note we've had lunch calls on Wednesdays as a more informal setting so everyone can talk about general things and keep the social aspect going. Course some people don't feel the need to partake (I sometimes am too busy) so it's quite different from call to call.
On another note we've had lunch calls on Wednesdays as a more informal setting so everyone can talk about general things and keep the social aspect going. Course some people don't feel the need to partake (I sometimes am too busy) so it's quite different from call to call.
Try VR. It would be super cool to have a VR Chat version of slack/discord for working.
I agree things are presented in emotive ways, but I find most business decisions are made the same way.
I believe remote work is a temporary phase, with businesses going back to the "old normal" as soon as COVID no longer presents much of a threat.
My first reason for thinking this is I've found inertia is the most powerful force in the office environment. When given the option to adopt a different way of working, the aggregate whole will resist the attempt unless there is no alternative. This conservative nature is the reason why Agile fails to take hold, why compliance rituals will remain long after they're relevant and so on.
The second is extravert culture dominates the office. Most people are extraverted (about 60% IIRC), with even higher concentrations in general and C-level management. This can be observed in the performative nature of the hiring process, the belief in open plan offices, in companies thinking of meetings as productive rather than waste to be minimised and believing in things like brainstorming sessions leading to better results despite research indicating the opposite. An extraverted manager needs to interact with someone on a personal level because they need the stimulation and social contact, and because it's more efficient for them. An introvert has no such leanings.
Third, I believe we're in a leadership crisis, where companies believe "command and control" is more important than improving employee efficiency. In order to control, you need pants in seats. When adopting that stance, you're less likely to want to delegate in the true sense: offer employees autonomy over their tasks, trusting they'll get the job done. Working from home is counter to the control scheme.
As I see it, the voices arguing for a return to the office are the representatives of the conservative, extraverted, control-oriented voices in the business community.
I believe remote work is a temporary phase, with businesses going back to the "old normal" as soon as COVID no longer presents much of a threat.
My first reason for thinking this is I've found inertia is the most powerful force in the office environment. When given the option to adopt a different way of working, the aggregate whole will resist the attempt unless there is no alternative. This conservative nature is the reason why Agile fails to take hold, why compliance rituals will remain long after they're relevant and so on.
The second is extravert culture dominates the office. Most people are extraverted (about 60% IIRC), with even higher concentrations in general and C-level management. This can be observed in the performative nature of the hiring process, the belief in open plan offices, in companies thinking of meetings as productive rather than waste to be minimised and believing in things like brainstorming sessions leading to better results despite research indicating the opposite. An extraverted manager needs to interact with someone on a personal level because they need the stimulation and social contact, and because it's more efficient for them. An introvert has no such leanings.
Third, I believe we're in a leadership crisis, where companies believe "command and control" is more important than improving employee efficiency. In order to control, you need pants in seats. When adopting that stance, you're less likely to want to delegate in the true sense: offer employees autonomy over their tasks, trusting they'll get the job done. Working from home is counter to the control scheme.
As I see it, the voices arguing for a return to the office are the representatives of the conservative, extraverted, control-oriented voices in the business community.
My commute is 20 minutes on an uncrowded ferry, and my home office is a tiny desk in my daughter's bedroom while she works on the other side on school stuff.
My colleague has a massive house with a pool tennis court and so much space he has literally 3 never-used bedrooms. His wife looks after kids who are at school most of the day again. His commute is 2 hours each way.
People are talking home vs office people are coming from very different comparisons.
My colleague has a massive house with a pool tennis court and so much space he has literally 3 never-used bedrooms. His wife looks after kids who are at school most of the day again. His commute is 2 hours each way.
People are talking home vs office people are coming from very different comparisons.
Commute time is a big thing here.
People who have a 2 hour (one way) commute from hell from their massive house are super happy about this situation (shocking, I know).
People who live in a small studio apartment 10 minutes from the office see it differently.
What I expect this to result in is employers increasingly forcing people to WFH (either outright, or by making the offices horribly unattractive through hot-desking, increased density, etc.), pushing the cost of an office onto employees.
Even if a company "generously" gives you a $1000 allowance, that barely covers what high quality office furniture would cost, and in exchange, you pay a lot of tiny things that don't seem to be worth mentioning individually but add up to a massive cost when you take them all together over years:
- the real estate
- HVAC
- utilities (increased water usage, electricity for the office equipment & HVAC)
- maintenance for all of that (money and time)
- cleaning (if your employer asked you to come in unpaid after hours to vacuum the office and scrub the office toilets, everyone would consider them crazy, and yet this is effectively what will happen with WFH)
Not to speak of all the amenities and perks employers often provide, like cafeterias (often subsidized or even free). And not only will you end up paying the businesses' business expenses, you'll often do so (at least in part) with your post-tax money, i.e. depending on your tax rate, each dollar spent may be equivalent to e.g. $1.6 in lost income.
People who have a 2 hour (one way) commute from hell from their massive house are super happy about this situation (shocking, I know).
People who live in a small studio apartment 10 minutes from the office see it differently.
What I expect this to result in is employers increasingly forcing people to WFH (either outright, or by making the offices horribly unattractive through hot-desking, increased density, etc.), pushing the cost of an office onto employees.
Even if a company "generously" gives you a $1000 allowance, that barely covers what high quality office furniture would cost, and in exchange, you pay a lot of tiny things that don't seem to be worth mentioning individually but add up to a massive cost when you take them all together over years:
- the real estate
- HVAC
- utilities (increased water usage, electricity for the office equipment & HVAC)
- maintenance for all of that (money and time)
- cleaning (if your employer asked you to come in unpaid after hours to vacuum the office and scrub the office toilets, everyone would consider them crazy, and yet this is effectively what will happen with WFH)
Not to speak of all the amenities and perks employers often provide, like cafeterias (often subsidized or even free). And not only will you end up paying the businesses' business expenses, you'll often do so (at least in part) with your post-tax money, i.e. depending on your tax rate, each dollar spent may be equivalent to e.g. $1.6 in lost income.
Really, there are only 2 costs that matter.
On the one side you have the commute--both in time and money.
On the other side is whether the place you'd be living in otherwise is suitable for long-term WFH or if you have to spend more money for another bedroom or whatever.
So, if you already have a dedicated office in an exurban house (as I do), not commuting--which I rarely did anyway--is a cost savings. As someone who has mostly worked remotely for years, all the other stuff is pretty trivial even given the occasional significant purchase (I had to replace my very old office chair).
I already have to clean my house and/or have it done. And the delta in utilities, etc. is trivial.
ADDED: Companies sometimes have covered co-working spaces. Though I suspect this will become less common.
On the one side you have the commute--both in time and money.
On the other side is whether the place you'd be living in otherwise is suitable for long-term WFH or if you have to spend more money for another bedroom or whatever.
So, if you already have a dedicated office in an exurban house (as I do), not commuting--which I rarely did anyway--is a cost savings. As someone who has mostly worked remotely for years, all the other stuff is pretty trivial even given the occasional significant purchase (I had to replace my very old office chair).
I already have to clean my house and/or have it done. And the delta in utilities, etc. is trivial.
ADDED: Companies sometimes have covered co-working spaces. Though I suspect this will become less common.
Those minor costs can still add up. Depending on your setup and location you could easily be spending 30+c/h on electricity when working from home. Extra cooling, lighting, possibly multiple PC’s etc. At ~2,000 hours a year you’re talking an extra ~600$/per year after tax.
On the other hand it’s also much cheaper to cook at home.
PS: My preference is to live close enough to walk to the office, but that doesn’t really scale well.
On the other hand it’s also much cheaper to cook at home.
PS: My preference is to live close enough to walk to the office, but that doesn’t really scale well.
I've been working for home for about four years now. One of the biggest unexpected benefits has been the ability to do asynchronous household tasks. Placing a load of clothes in the washing machine takes very little time, same goes for putting them in the dryer. The time for those machines to do their work is time I'm working for my employer. When I would go into an office, those tasks would consume a large part of evenings or a day on the weekend. Same goes for cooking if you make things that are mostly hands off. Half an hour before lunch I can throw previously prepped ingredients into the Instant Pot and air fryer which will make lunch ready right as I start my lunch hour. Of course sometimes I'm in a meeting and can't even get to the kitchen to start those tasks but being flexible is part of the deal. On those days, I eat lunch half an hour later, which still isn't much trouble.
A couple years ago, I had to move bare metal servers to my home to continue my job working at a VR technology startup, who had just decided to forgo their offices.
I took on an extra $150-$200 in power expenses per month, and it was absolutely treacherous trying to get reimbursed for this. The company never considered the costs they were funneling into the employees - apparently - until people started to complain.
I fear most people were put into similar situations - perhaps not fiscally, but in a procedural sense - during this most recent mass WFH migration.
I took on an extra $150-$200 in power expenses per month, and it was absolutely treacherous trying to get reimbursed for this. The company never considered the costs they were funneling into the employees - apparently - until people started to complain.
I fear most people were put into similar situations - perhaps not fiscally, but in a procedural sense - during this most recent mass WFH migration.
> I took on an extra $150-$200 in power expenses per month, and it was absolutely treacherous trying to get reimbursed for this
Well, fuck that... if it's company hardware and there's no reimbursement, power gets cut to that rack at 5PM local time.
Well, fuck that... if it's company hardware and there's no reimbursement, power gets cut to that rack at 5PM local time.
Just wire it into a light switch. If the switch gets flipped... shame.
"I don't know what to do. I guess if you wanted to send an electrician out to install a new circuit with its own meter, things might be more reliable."
"I don't know what to do. I guess if you wanted to send an electrician out to install a new circuit with its own meter, things might be more reliable."
> send an electrician
I think OP needed an electrician onsite anyway, as $200/month would be somewhat over 2500 watts continuous 24x7 which would require in the US at minimum two dedicated 15 amp circuits. That's a serious enough amount of heat to require the attentions of a HVAC guy also.
I ran some small clusters at home for learning purposes and maybe $400 per year was pretty minimal compared to the cost of tuition, cost of the hardware, etc.
I think OP needed an electrician onsite anyway, as $200/month would be somewhat over 2500 watts continuous 24x7 which would require in the US at minimum two dedicated 15 amp circuits. That's a serious enough amount of heat to require the attentions of a HVAC guy also.
I ran some small clusters at home for learning purposes and maybe $400 per year was pretty minimal compared to the cost of tuition, cost of the hardware, etc.
If your electricity is 10 cents per kWh it would be that much.
Since they said NYC we can bump that to 21 cents and then $150-$200 becomes 980-1300 watts, or 8-11 amps. That's something most people could plug in to their bedroom or living room circuit without a sweat.
Since they said NYC we can bump that to 21 cents and then $150-$200 becomes 980-1300 watts, or 8-11 amps. That's something most people could plug in to their bedroom or living room circuit without a sweat.
Is there a resource online one can use to figure out what the cost per kWh will be for their power usage in a particular area?
I am fascinated by how people know these figures seemingly off the top of their heads. :)
I am fascinated by how people know these figures seemingly off the top of their heads. :)
I was beginning to suspect this, as well. But I of course was nowhere near prepared to handle this responsibility on my own. I live in a 2BR 4th-floor walk-up apartment in Brooklyn, NY, constructed 1913.
The rack consisted of a dual-processor Xeon 1U with a Tesla GPU, two 4U hard drive racks, and a UPS unit.
The rack consisted of a dual-processor Xeon 1U with a Tesla GPU, two 4U hard drive racks, and a UPS unit.
In MA ($0.195/kWh), that’s only about 1400W, or 12A which is supportable on a single 15A circuit.
That would double my power expenses per month. Who knows if my circuits would even handle it. ADDED: My internet would also not be reliable enough for servers that other people were depending on.
That's a big difference from my laptop being plugged in at home for 8 hours a day rather than in an office.
That's a big difference from my laptop being plugged in at home for 8 hours a day rather than in an office.
In a warm climate/season it could cost you even more. Not only are you paying for the servers' electricity, but you're also going to want extra air conditioning to remove the waste heat.
Yeah I live in a country that literally worships efficiency and cost cutting. Fancy offices have been extinct for a long time. Thanks to technology people can work anywhere and they're expected to.
I don’t think utilities are expensive enough to compare to the explicit costs of commuting by car (fuel, wear and tear, insurance) and the implicit costs of commuting (increased morbidity/mortality risk from driving, opportunity cost of time needed to be allocated to commuting).
Especially if the house isn’t completely empty when you’re at work.
Especially if the house isn’t completely empty when you’re at work.
Again this heavily depends on your situation.
I live a 20 min walk from my office. I have £0 commuting costs.
On the other hand I live in an old city with little new built housing. My flat is over 100 years old with massive ceilings, electric heating and no way to way to improve the insulation. Heating it just in the evenings for 5 hours costs about £50 a month, heating it while I work will likely cost £70-100 extra in top.
I live a 20 min walk from my office. I have £0 commuting costs.
On the other hand I live in an old city with little new built housing. My flat is over 100 years old with massive ceilings, electric heating and no way to way to improve the insulation. Heating it just in the evenings for 5 hours costs about £50 a month, heating it while I work will likely cost £70-100 extra in top.
It’s not a zero cost: it’s 40 minutes of time.
I run there, which is time I still spend at home. And I enjoy the walk home as I live in a beautiful city. I normally go walking throughout the day for longer than that anyway.
Yes, I love being able to walk/bike to work, but that’s not life for 95%+ of people in the US (nor England from what I know).
Walking/biking gives you agency that public transit/cars don’t. It feels much freer.
Walking/biking gives you agency that public transit/cars don’t. It feels much freer.
Biking in Tokyo is less freeing than public transportation because of the added time finding a place to lock up the bike. I bought a bike thinking I'd use it but it turns out it's actually much less free since if I take it I'm stuck with it the entire day where as without it I can easily visit the other side of the city on a whim via public transportation. The same would be true in Singapore, Hong Kong, Paris, Berlin, many other places with good public transportation.
You should look at getting a folding bike. I got a Brompton recently, using a company cycle-to-work scheme and it's been brilliant. I can cycle 3-4 miles in 20 mins to my favourite coffee shop, fold up my bike in 20 seconds and stash it under my table.
It might be a net positive if they enjoy the walk more than 40 minutes of other activity.
WFH doesn't mean they can't walk for 40 minutes though.
But in the context of office vs home, if the OP is basically saying "I like my free commute" then you have to remove cost & time from the "pro" list for WFH.
I used to like reading on the train as time for myself but it didn't balance out the other stress & cost of commuting.
If Transport for London said that trains would be free at the point of use & actually put on enough service that most people got a seat I'd definitely consider the office more favourably again
I used to like reading on the train as time for myself but it didn't balance out the other stress & cost of commuting.
If Transport for London said that trains would be free at the point of use & actually put on enough service that most people got a seat I'd definitely consider the office more favourably again
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Not to mention the infrastructure / tax costs! New interstate lanes to sate population growth don't build themselves.
The more regular commuters we can take off the road, the better.
The more regular commuters we can take off the road, the better.
Some of my transit activist friends are upset over the potential of work from home to harm demand for transit service, which for some populations are used for more than commuting to work. Also if more people end up moving out of city centers because they're no longer constrained by a commute, that further erodes the demand for public transportation.
Commuting for a lot of us in the suburbs: long distance train passes, gas, parking, wear on the car, and increased insurance premiums for the mileage dwarf anything you're talking about. I'm saving over $500 after tax dollars a month by WfH. And that's before the buying lunch near the office, occasional Uber when trains were down, parking tickets...
Based on not traveling, a $50/month delta between me not being in the house at all vs. being there full-time is actually about right. But then I don't live with someone. But simply not being in the house for 10 hours a day doesn't affect things much. Admittedly I use AC minimally.
That said, I'd be happy to concede that working at home costs me $1K/yr. in costs I wouldn't have were I to go into an office every day. But that has costs like commuting (for most people) too.
That said, I'd be happy to concede that working at home costs me $1K/yr. in costs I wouldn't have were I to go into an office every day. But that has costs like commuting (for most people) too.
Yeah, my stay at home costs are not zero, but just being able to scale back to one car (dropping one insurance payment), cancel parking downtown and stop burning so much gas is already a $700/mo saving.
Add in some of the other costs of the “downtown lifestyle” (lunch and coffee; skipped and brewed at home for pennies now) and I’m saving like $15k/yr post tax.
Just on insurance, parking, gas, lunches and coffee I’m saving enough to buy a brand new Aeron chair every month, give or take.
And if this turns permanent, there are a lot of other changes I can make to save even more money and increase my quality of life.
I’d say $1k/yr sounds about right for the extra expenses I’ll incur. That’s not even on my radar with all the other money this saves me and the opportunity it creates.
Add in some of the other costs of the “downtown lifestyle” (lunch and coffee; skipped and brewed at home for pennies now) and I’m saving like $15k/yr post tax.
Just on insurance, parking, gas, lunches and coffee I’m saving enough to buy a brand new Aeron chair every month, give or take.
And if this turns permanent, there are a lot of other changes I can make to save even more money and increase my quality of life.
I’d say $1k/yr sounds about right for the extra expenses I’ll incur. That’s not even on my radar with all the other money this saves me and the opportunity it creates.
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Savings also add up, so everyone's balance will land somewhere different depending on their lifestyle. Commute has a cost, buying lunch has a cost, less sleep has a cost, wearing shoes more often has a cost, etc...
(I expect another one of the "surprising industry suffering from covid" articles at some point about lack of footwear sales)
(I expect another one of the "surprising industry suffering from covid" articles at some point about lack of footwear sales)
But I do not have an extra office in a dedicated bedroom. I live in central Tokyo.
The delta in house price for ‘extra bedroom’ in the place I live is around $250,000.
There is just no way my company is going to even consider reimbursing me for that.
The delta in house price for ‘extra bedroom’ in the place I live is around $250,000.
There is just no way my company is going to even consider reimbursing me for that.
But if you're WFH, you don't need to live in central Tokyo, you can live anywhere. You'd probably save money by gaining an extra bedroom and moving out of central Tokyo, no?
Anywhere where you:
- Have reasonable fast internet.
- (Affordable) Hospitals/Police/Firewatch in reasonable distance
- Are not to far away from the companies office as you likely still have to go to the office from time to time.
EDIT: Most people don't live in Tokyo or cities with similar expensive housings. The cost of moving away from cities is often much bigger then "just" longer transit times from home to work.
- Have reasonable fast internet.
- (Affordable) Hospitals/Police/Firewatch in reasonable distance
- Are not to far away from the companies office as you likely still have to go to the office from time to time.
EDIT: Most people don't live in Tokyo or cities with similar expensive housings. The cost of moving away from cities is often much bigger then "just" longer transit times from home to work.
If WFH was guarantee, I'd have enough money to take a helicopter down to NYC twice a month instead of paying taxes/rent/mortgage/higher cost of food/MTA/LIRR/etc.
While living in a house with too many bedrooms. And if you want to talk about environmental impact, the air is cleaner the water is blue again and maybe we start paying baristas 100k a year for the inconvenience of having to live in the city instead of software engineers that can fckoff and do this from the moon.
The obvious is slapping everyone in the face. And if you are in commercial real estate, best wishes in 2021.
While living in a house with too many bedrooms. And if you want to talk about environmental impact, the air is cleaner the water is blue again and maybe we start paying baristas 100k a year for the inconvenience of having to live in the city instead of software engineers that can fckoff and do this from the moon.
The obvious is slapping everyone in the face. And if you are in commercial real estate, best wishes in 2021.
>Are not to far away from the companies office as you likely still have to go to the office from time to time.
The length of a "tolerable commute" increases disproportionately as the frequency of said commute declines. If I have to commute every day, anything over 30 minutes is pretty tiring. If I have to commute twice a week, driving 2+ hours is fine. If I have to commute once a month, I'd be willing to live on the other side of the country and fly in.
The length of a "tolerable commute" increases disproportionately as the frequency of said commute declines. If I have to commute every day, anything over 30 minutes is pretty tiring. If I have to commute twice a week, driving 2+ hours is fine. If I have to commute once a month, I'd be willing to live on the other side of the country and fly in.
Thinking long term, housing is expensive because of mandatory office going, so removing the pressure from that side should in theory affect prices
It already is. I live in a semi-rural area that's lovely, but the commute is a hassle (there's a ferry to downtown, if you can walk/bus from there it's ok, but long, if you have to drive from there, you have to fight for limited car spaces on the ferry, and traffic is awful around downtown, etc; and friday afternoons its hard to get a car on the ferry because of weekend trips). This summer a lot of people have moved from the other side of the ferry, because they can WFH (for now) and would prefer more space right now. Real estate prices are up and inventory is down. Of course, if they need to be in the office 4 or 5 days a week, they will likely move back.
In addition, you're being forced to adjust your personal lifestyle because of the office space your employer is choosing not to provide. Perhaps it would be cheaper to live in a farm house in the middle of nowhere, but what if you want to live in central Tokyo? Perhaps it's the American in me, but doesn't everyone deserve the right to pursue happiness, even if it's in the form of the city in which you live?
If other people flee the cities in favor of cheaper housing elsewhere, then real estate prices should decrease in places like Tokyo making it easer to live there for the people who want to.
Sure, you might want to live in central Tokyo, Manhattan, SF, etc. And it would be nice to be able to do so. But also Aspen, Nantucket, Carmel-by-the-Sea, Myrtle Beach, etc. Absent a business purpose, why should the former be subsidized over the latter.
What you say is true, of course.
But then this is the trade: he goes from a cheap, tiny place in Tokyo, spends most of his time at the office or out and about, gets to enjoy a world-class city
to: living somewhere that isn't Tokyo, where he can afford a space large enough to have an office, and is home all the time, and doesn't get to enjoy a world-class city.
Not a win, I'm guessing. And this is coming from someone in his third year of remote work who lives a mile out of a village of about 3,000 people. It's not everyone's cup of tea.
But then this is the trade: he goes from a cheap, tiny place in Tokyo, spends most of his time at the office or out and about, gets to enjoy a world-class city
to: living somewhere that isn't Tokyo, where he can afford a space large enough to have an office, and is home all the time, and doesn't get to enjoy a world-class city.
Not a win, I'm guessing. And this is coming from someone in his third year of remote work who lives a mile out of a village of about 3,000 people. It's not everyone's cup of tea.
That was my point. If you live in a central part of a major city because it's convenient for work and you want to live there, having to WFH indefinitely is probably going to be costly compared to being able to easily go into an office (unless your company will pay for a co-working space). You're right that they won't pay for a larger apartment.
There is also a social and mental cost.
For example for some one where anxiety acts in a way which hinders him to proper handle thinks like making food or cleaning having a clean office with a Mensa giving out reasonable good food for a reasonable price is a massive difference. It can make the difference between overcoming it and complexity succumbing to it to a degree where you at some point end up homeless on the streets....
Sure just one example. But you can make many such examples. Often less extreme.
But however I look at it it always boils down to people being good of (housing, mental health, social net and high sallery (==more affordable office equipment)) profiting from it but people which are not (small dark apartment, mental health problems, abusive partners, social isolation, not much money) paying the price for it. And sure in the praxis you will find anything in-between.
> allready have a dedicated office in an exurban house
In my experience (Germany/Berlin) this normally only applies for people which earn above average and even then it not so common for people only earning slightly above average. The best/most common thing you find with people earning slightly above average is a room which is intended for children but they either don't yet have any or they already moved out so it was turned into a office room.
Also most office at home room I have seen where just suitable for one person, so if both partner need to do home offices it gets space-wise tight.
For example for some one where anxiety acts in a way which hinders him to proper handle thinks like making food or cleaning having a clean office with a Mensa giving out reasonable good food for a reasonable price is a massive difference. It can make the difference between overcoming it and complexity succumbing to it to a degree where you at some point end up homeless on the streets....
Sure just one example. But you can make many such examples. Often less extreme.
But however I look at it it always boils down to people being good of (housing, mental health, social net and high sallery (==more affordable office equipment)) profiting from it but people which are not (small dark apartment, mental health problems, abusive partners, social isolation, not much money) paying the price for it. And sure in the praxis you will find anything in-between.
> allready have a dedicated office in an exurban house
In my experience (Germany/Berlin) this normally only applies for people which earn above average and even then it not so common for people only earning slightly above average. The best/most common thing you find with people earning slightly above average is a room which is intended for children but they either don't yet have any or they already moved out so it was turned into a office room.
Also most office at home room I have seen where just suitable for one person, so if both partner need to do home offices it gets space-wise tight.
Good points. It is also not that easy to just upgrade from a 2 bedroom apartment to a 4 bedroom one to accommodate a couple where both parties needs to work from home. Who is paying that extra rent? Certainly not the employer.
I don't like the idea that telecommuting benefits only the ones who can afford it.
Living hours from your workplace because you can't afford to be closer is not privileged. Wanting to cook at home because it's cheaper than restaurants it's not privileged. Wanting to Save the costs of gas or public transportation isn't either.
There are good arguments for and against but it's kinda bad to assume.
Living hours from your workplace because you can't afford to be closer is not privileged. Wanting to cook at home because it's cheaper than restaurants it's not privileged. Wanting to Save the costs of gas or public transportation isn't either.
There are good arguments for and against but it's kinda bad to assume.
The delta in utilities, in a place like Texas, during the summer months, is certainly not trivial. Relative to a tech workers salary, sure, a hundred bucks per month isn’t that much, but it’s costing me a lot more to keep my house cool through 100F days all summer long than it would if I let the thermostat go to 80F during the workday.
Not to mention the flipside. Living in Minnesota, I have to use my furnace all day when I work from home for many months out of the year. Natural gas isn't cheap, yet an electric heater would probably even be more expensive on my electric bill.
Does everyone in the living space leave for the day? At my place someone is always home most of everyday anyway.
I live alone, so if I were going to an office, yeah
How much was the commute costing you though?
Personally, usually most of the 3-4 commute hours per day I can spend in productive work so the time factor isn't a big issue. But cost wise I have literally saved thousands of dollars not commuting the last six months - probably to the equivalence of a 15% pre-tax pay rise.
Same here. Just on the really obvious and direct expenses, I got around a 15% raise out of this. There are a lot of other expenses that have gone way down as well and the other expenses that have increased have been... basically line noise. An extra $10 on coffee a month compared to $1200+ in savings isn’t even worth looking at.
And this is still when it’s unknown whether I’ll need to go back to an office full time at some point. If this turns into even 60-80% remote long term, I can start looking at things like selling the second car, moving a little further out instead of paying a premium for a “short” 1 hour commute, etc.
And that’s all without even discussing the time. The extra several hours a day I have to spend with my wife/child/dogs and doing things I love instead of sitting in gridlock are invaluable.
And this is still when it’s unknown whether I’ll need to go back to an office full time at some point. If this turns into even 60-80% remote long term, I can start looking at things like selling the second car, moving a little further out instead of paying a premium for a “short” 1 hour commute, etc.
And that’s all without even discussing the time. The extra several hours a day I have to spend with my wife/child/dogs and doing things I love instead of sitting in gridlock are invaluable.
To me the mental cost matters. For me, I'm mentally better off when I hang out with people physically than when I sit at home isolated chatting on slack. For you that might be different.
So I'd happily pay the commute cost if I have to for my mental well being. If you don't need that that's fine. You can stay home.
I have a gut feeling (so no data) that for many projects a core group of physically together people will out perform a group of remote workers of the same size "All other things being equal" (which they never are).
I come from games, having designers/artists/programmers able to look over each others shoulders and "riff" off each other's ideas is invaluable. But I know there are other kinds of work that don't need as much interaction so YMMV
So I'd happily pay the commute cost if I have to for my mental well being. If you don't need that that's fine. You can stay home.
I have a gut feeling (so no data) that for many projects a core group of physically together people will out perform a group of remote workers of the same size "All other things being equal" (which they never are).
I come from games, having designers/artists/programmers able to look over each others shoulders and "riff" off each other's ideas is invaluable. But I know there are other kinds of work that don't need as much interaction so YMMV
My exp is the exact opposite. I find being able to avoid the people I don't ever want to talk to a much better mental health boost.
The people I want to talk to are usually busy doing actual work so we usually catch up at lunch or after work. I also have the personal numbers of those people. All the people that have time to talk during the work day I'd rather not talk to. I know this is basically an insult for that I'm sorry but I suspect you are one of those people. The awkward guy with no friends that comes to the office for his social interaction fix.
Riffing ideas is not helpful sorry but its just your awkward way of socializing. Has anyone really ever said oh ok I'll just trash this work and start over after "riffing"? No they just go "haha" and continue doing whatever they were doing.
The people I want to talk to are usually busy doing actual work so we usually catch up at lunch or after work. I also have the personal numbers of those people. All the people that have time to talk during the work day I'd rather not talk to. I know this is basically an insult for that I'm sorry but I suspect you are one of those people. The awkward guy with no friends that comes to the office for his social interaction fix.
Riffing ideas is not helpful sorry but its just your awkward way of socializing. Has anyone really ever said oh ok I'll just trash this work and start over after "riffing"? No they just go "haha" and continue doing whatever they were doing.
I find some degree of commute itself necessary for my mental health. The act of traveling itself flips a mental switch. Just being home all day, I basically have to go out and pick up a coffee or something in the morning just to simulate that feeling.
This must be learned, commuting is definitely not something I would say was good for my mental health.
Heh, all these comments are very much "to each their own" but ya, holy heck did I ever HATE my commute. It wasn't even that long, but it was depressing. I didn't even realize how filled with dread I was every night before going to bed and every day around 4pm or so realizing I'd be faced with getting myself home. This situation is heaven for me (not saying I'm happy about why we're in this situation, to be clear).
Of course, I live alone in a decent-sized apartment outside of downtown. I also work at an XP shop (I actually much prefer remote pairing) and I'd probably feel differently if I had to work alone all day every day.
Of course, I live alone in a decent-sized apartment outside of downtown. I also work at an XP shop (I actually much prefer remote pairing) and I'd probably feel differently if I had to work alone all day every day.
> For me, I'm mentally better off when I hang out with people physically than when I sit at home isolated chatting on slack. For you that might be different.
But in a way, this is not a balanced relationship. Sure, you'd want to interact with people like you who are excited about being together, so that's the preferred state anyway, but if most of your colleagues are of the 2nd sort, then you put the effort of going in the office to no reward. You could connect with people outside your immediate sphere, but team cohesion isn't helped by that and you might start disliking working there. So in a way you get some bubbles forming - those who prefer virtual interaction and those who prefer face-to-face.
This will probably be a big factor for career progression - is your manager leaning towards WFH or office-work? If you're on the other side, you might get left behind. Not that there aren't plenty of such possible discrepancies already out there
But in a way, this is not a balanced relationship. Sure, you'd want to interact with people like you who are excited about being together, so that's the preferred state anyway, but if most of your colleagues are of the 2nd sort, then you put the effort of going in the office to no reward. You could connect with people outside your immediate sphere, but team cohesion isn't helped by that and you might start disliking working there. So in a way you get some bubbles forming - those who prefer virtual interaction and those who prefer face-to-face.
This will probably be a big factor for career progression - is your manager leaning towards WFH or office-work? If you're on the other side, you might get left behind. Not that there aren't plenty of such possible discrepancies already out there
The keywords in what you said is “to me.”
For some reason, passionate work from home workers assume everyone likes what they like and everyone has the same situation as them.
I prefer going to the office. It’s not a moral failing, it’s just what I like. I think people should be free to do what they like.
For some reason, passionate work from home workers assume everyone likes what they like and everyone has the same situation as them.
I prefer going to the office. It’s not a moral failing, it’s just what I like. I think people should be free to do what they like.
Not everyone employed had these benefits to start with. What pains me is seeing tech employees complain about lost perks while the rest of the population is really suffering. How comfortable do we need to be to lose the sense of reality?
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It’s part of the entire package of compensation for working at a company. If my employer cuts my pay by $30,000 and says, “you’re still making more than most the population”, I’m going to leave and go somewhere that pays me more?
Is this privilege? Of course. A lot of people don’t have the luxury to go get a better job if their pay gets cut. But how does me foregoing that privilege help them?
I have no idea what the point of your comment is. Are you just wanting people to feel bad because they don’t like that WFH made their life a little worse?
Edit: The parent comment was edited after I started writing my comment. Said something about GP’s comment being a privileged one, amongst other things. Just for some context about where I’m coming from with my comment.
Is this privilege? Of course. A lot of people don’t have the luxury to go get a better job if their pay gets cut. But how does me foregoing that privilege help them?
I have no idea what the point of your comment is. Are you just wanting people to feel bad because they don’t like that WFH made their life a little worse?
Edit: The parent comment was edited after I started writing my comment. Said something about GP’s comment being a privileged one, amongst other things. Just for some context about where I’m coming from with my comment.
> Not everyone employed had these benefits to start with.
The key points I'm talking about are "some form of office" and I believe most people who can WFH had that. Even people who don't work in offices usually have a workplace, i.e. the utilities issue applies to them as well.
Less privileged workers will be hit harder by this, because a couple hundred bucks for all the bullet points I listed each month is not a huge deal to a tech worker, but potentially a massive deal for someone who makes less.
The additional perks are a tiny part of it, and subsidized (not free) cafeterias aren't uncommon even outside of tech in Germany. This will affect all office workers, not just tech.
The key points I'm talking about are "some form of office" and I believe most people who can WFH had that. Even people who don't work in offices usually have a workplace, i.e. the utilities issue applies to them as well.
Less privileged workers will be hit harder by this, because a couple hundred bucks for all the bullet points I listed each month is not a huge deal to a tech worker, but potentially a massive deal for someone who makes less.
The additional perks are a tiny part of it, and subsidized (not free) cafeterias aren't uncommon even outside of tech in Germany. This will affect all office workers, not just tech.
> massive cost when you take them all together over years
I believe this is the very definition of penny wise, pound foolish. If the cost of providing an office is seriously noticeable against the (comfortable) labor of your people your company has much bigger problems than "business expenses".
I believe this is the very definition of penny wise, pound foolish. If the cost of providing an office is seriously noticeable against the (comfortable) labor of your people your company has much bigger problems than "business expenses".
The real estate is not a cost if you have an office setup at home anyway. As a computer programmer, why would I not? Cleaning and maintenance of that office is just part of what I do.
Almost any commute is going to outweigh those factors.
Almost any commute is going to outweigh those factors.
That's far from the case for everybody. Extra heating is looking like it'll cost me another £80-100 over winter whereas I have no commuting costs atm.
That's barely the cost of a couple of cups of take-out coffee a week for the cold months, which I'd be far more likely to buy when at work.
£100 is trivial if you're getting paid £100,000
If you're making £12,000 a year though? That £100 might be your entire budget for Christmas presents.
If you're making £12,000 a year though? That £100 might be your entire budget for Christmas presents.
That £100 might be your entire budget for groceries. There's a real economic class difference that I think a lot of people aren't seeing here.
Speak for yourself, I have good coffee at the office. Hell I spend way more on coffee now just to go sit somewhere that's not my main room.
> I have good coffee at the office
Then in my experience you're an outlier! I've never worked in an office with anything other than the worst bilge available for free....
Then in my experience you're an outlier! I've never worked in an office with anything other than the worst bilge available for free....
I live in a 2 bedroom 900 square foot condo with a toddler. The kitchen table acted as my “desk” before COVID, usually in a pinch if I really had to. Currently I have half of our bedroom stuffed with a desk so I can work full time during the day.
Not everybody’s situation is the same. I really liked my situation before COVID. I had a 10 minute walk to work, a large public park across the street where the city maintained the “yard”, and I saw my daughter for hours most evenings. Many co-workers who lived further out barely saw their kids during the week.
Obviously, COVID has caused a lot of people who love urban living to take a hard look at it. Living in a city loses its appeal when all the amenities are closed/gone, but the real estate “is not a cost” is not true for everybody. An extra bedroom where I live would have been hundreds of thousands more. We elected not to spend the money because, well, I had a desk at the office and we were only going to have one kid.
Not everybody’s situation is the same. I really liked my situation before COVID. I had a 10 minute walk to work, a large public park across the street where the city maintained the “yard”, and I saw my daughter for hours most evenings. Many co-workers who lived further out barely saw their kids during the week.
Obviously, COVID has caused a lot of people who love urban living to take a hard look at it. Living in a city loses its appeal when all the amenities are closed/gone, but the real estate “is not a cost” is not true for everybody. An extra bedroom where I live would have been hundreds of thousands more. We elected not to spend the money because, well, I had a desk at the office and we were only going to have one kid.
> Obviously, COVID has caused a lot of people who love urban living to take a hard look at it. Living in a city loses its appeal when all the amenities are closed/gone
I still don't really understand this attitude. Sure, if you're only living in a particular city to be close to your office, it makes sense to re-evaluate when your office is now your home. But if you like living in a city because of those urban amenities... they're not gone forever. They're already starting to reopen, cautiously, to some extent, and I expect things will be back mostly to normal early/mid next year (minus, unfortunately, businesses that did/will not survive the shutdown). It seems pretty short-sighted to leave a place you otherwise love because of conditions that are temporary.
I still don't really understand this attitude. Sure, if you're only living in a particular city to be close to your office, it makes sense to re-evaluate when your office is now your home. But if you like living in a city because of those urban amenities... they're not gone forever. They're already starting to reopen, cautiously, to some extent, and I expect things will be back mostly to normal early/mid next year (minus, unfortunately, businesses that did/will not survive the shutdown). It seems pretty short-sighted to leave a place you otherwise love because of conditions that are temporary.
People in general are notorious for their short term thinking. I’m not re-evaluating personally, even though a good chunk of those amenities are gone and it remains to be seen what will replace them. However, people I know are “fleeing”. At the height of the lockdowns, many people with kids freaked out a bit as the services that serviced the homeless, addicted, and those with mental health problems closed, essentially dumping them on the street where they took over public parks. Even though things are going back to normal, the damage was done in these people’s heads and they’re heading for the suburbs.
I’m not sure how things may change long term. (God I hope) in 5 years a new wave of people who didn’t live here during the pandemic will replace them. I suspect that even if people work from home full time on a more permanent basis, the cul-de-sac bedroom community suburbs will become even more isolating as people spend all their time there, not just for the quiet evenings and weekends.
We’ll see, I guess.
I’m not sure how things may change long term. (God I hope) in 5 years a new wave of people who didn’t live here during the pandemic will replace them. I suspect that even if people work from home full time on a more permanent basis, the cul-de-sac bedroom community suburbs will become even more isolating as people spend all their time there, not just for the quiet evenings and weekends.
We’ll see, I guess.
I think both big house 2 hours away and small studio 10 minutes away would both be happy about WFH. This means small studio 10 minutes away can move out of his small studio that he lives in only because its 10 minutes away.
EDIT: Not to say that studio 10 minutes from work might enjoy other aspects of his living situation but if his main constraint of "must be 10 minutes from work" is lifted, that gives him much more flexibility.
EDIT: Not to say that studio 10 minutes from work might enjoy other aspects of his living situation but if his main constraint of "must be 10 minutes from work" is lifted, that gives him much more flexibility.
The implicit assumption is that small studio 10 minutes away wants to work in a city center and therefore "making" them move to bigger digs somewhere further out is a downgrade. Which may or may not be true.
In any case having WFH gives them the option, as I said they could have lots of OTHER reasons they want to live there, but removing that constraint provides an additional degree of freedom.
Moving isn't easy if your have a mortgage plus I don't particularly want to move.
Even if I did I got a great deal on my flat and I'd have to move right out the the edge of town or to a very rough neighborhood to afford an additional room for the same price.
Lastly you're ignoring that some of us genuinely like being in an office. I like the physical separation between work and home, I like seeing folk day to day and I like discussing things and working together in person.
Even if I did I got a great deal on my flat and I'd have to move right out the the edge of town or to a very rough neighborhood to afford an additional room for the same price.
Lastly you're ignoring that some of us genuinely like being in an office. I like the physical separation between work and home, I like seeing folk day to day and I like discussing things and working together in person.
So let’s give a tax cut to WFH people. Next, if you cost the employer less money, that means they are more profitable which means RSUs should become more valuable. Or, at the very least, ask for a pay raise. If your productivity is the same or greater, that shouldn’t be too hard. If you are replaceable by a cheaper worker, then that’s more of a statement i
of your value rather than company economics. You can also move to a much cheaper area with much lower taxes. If my offices in Silicon Valley weren’t reopening in January, I’d already be living in Reno.
“Free” food isn’t free. “Amenities” aren’t free either.
Saving on the commute however, that’s a substantial savings in your time. Even if you have your commute subsidized, you aren’t likely being paid for your commute time. Getting back an hour or more per day is more valuable to me than a ping pong table or free coffee.
For those that live five minutes from the office — now you can move and save a pile of money in the process.
“Free” food isn’t free. “Amenities” aren’t free either.
Saving on the commute however, that’s a substantial savings in your time. Even if you have your commute subsidized, you aren’t likely being paid for your commute time. Getting back an hour or more per day is more valuable to me than a ping pong table or free coffee.
For those that live five minutes from the office — now you can move and save a pile of money in the process.
> For those that live five minutes from the office — now you can move and save a pile of money in the process.
No thanks, I like my kids to be able to walk from school to home.
No thanks, I like my kids to be able to walk from school to home.
I'd like a view of the ocean from my home office window, however I don't want it enough to pay market rates for it. You may feel otherwise and are free to spend your money as you wish.
Yeah, I agree. I miss my old routine too. I even have a dedicated office of sorts, and working from home is comfortable and convenient to me. But... I miss the commute. The bus I used to take wasn't particularly uncrowded, but I always managed to get a seat (thanks to having a particularly early schedule) and I used to take the opportunity to read (since each trip took about 40-45 minutes, that's about 1h30m of reading a day), and from time to time I would just put my book down and look at the window, which I always found relaxing even if it's the very same trip everyday. These trips, especially the one in the morning, were about the most quiet moments of my day (although headphones are a necessity, for sure). Reading at home is just not the same, after so many years of having that schedule.
On the other hand, I don't particularly miss the office. Sure, it's nice to have breakfast with my workmates from time to time, but I can live without it.
On the other hand, I don't particularly miss the office. Sure, it's nice to have breakfast with my workmates from time to time, but I can live without it.
Just another data point, but I absolutely don’t miss my 2.5hrs round trip commute. I spend on average 1 hr more working, and run the other hour. And still get an extra 30mins family time. Win-win-win situation. No, I don’t miss going to the office.
A sibling semi-facetiously suggests taking a bus ride out and back, which obviously isn't a great idea during a global pandemic, but... I think it's a pretty good idea otherwise?
Or you could just walk (or bus, when it's safer to do so) to a park, sit on a bench, and read for a half hour? Or maybe even the full hour and a half, so you get some uninterrupted reading in, and you can pick whether you do that in the morning, or in the evening? Or, hell, do half in the morning and half in the evening as you do now, just without the pressure to get somewhere.
I keep hearing how some people (mostly those who don't have to drive themselves) like their commute, and are sad they don't have one anymore, and may not even after COVID restrictions are lifted, but... you've been given that time back to do whatever you want with it. How is that not in every way better than a commute, even one you currently enjoy?
Or you could just walk (or bus, when it's safer to do so) to a park, sit on a bench, and read for a half hour? Or maybe even the full hour and a half, so you get some uninterrupted reading in, and you can pick whether you do that in the morning, or in the evening? Or, hell, do half in the morning and half in the evening as you do now, just without the pressure to get somewhere.
I keep hearing how some people (mostly those who don't have to drive themselves) like their commute, and are sad they don't have one anymore, and may not even after COVID restrictions are lifted, but... you've been given that time back to do whatever you want with it. How is that not in every way better than a commute, even one you currently enjoy?
I'm being facetious but also maybe not: why don't you take a 40min bus trip around the neighbourhood and return home before you start your WFH schedule?
I think that's why people go to cafe to read. There's a certain ambiance they've come to expect and appreciate. Maybe what you really need (when it's feasible) is a cafe, or even just a bus with an hourly route you can sit in for a while to get out and appreciate that feeling?
I think a big part is just being somewhere different. Most days I spend at my desk but some days are more about researching and I go sit outside with my laptop (stopped because fires). I'd happily go to a coffee shop if it weren't for the pandemic. It is nice to just have a new scenery and change things up a little.
I should also mention I don't mind commutes that are: walk to bart, read, get off bart, walk to work, work, reverse. I DO mind commutes that are: drive for an hour, sit in traffic, avoid that asshole trying to cut into my lane, and listen to podcasts. (I like podcasts, it is the driving part that is frustrating) It is substantially more stressful.
I should also mention I don't mind commutes that are: walk to bart, read, get off bart, walk to work, work, reverse. I DO mind commutes that are: drive for an hour, sit in traffic, avoid that asshole trying to cut into my lane, and listen to podcasts. (I like podcasts, it is the driving part that is frustrating) It is substantially more stressful.
Could you not get on a bus anyway? or sit in a park?
The locale is not important.
The important thing is that it's time that is literally impossible to re-allocate to either housework or work-work.
Any makeshift substitute won't have that property, and you'll be pressured to skip it in order to do more housework or more work-work.
The important thing is that it's time that is literally impossible to re-allocate to either housework or work-work.
Any makeshift substitute won't have that property, and you'll be pressured to skip it in order to do more housework or more work-work.
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I disagree. It's just a matter of habit. I spend 30 min doing some language learning exercises every day and have broken my "streak" maybe 10 times over 2 years. Missing out on 10 days is insignificant. There have been weeks where I felt like I should quit. Reading a book sounds relaxing compared to that.
People need to adapt. Just because you can't seem to figure out how to read a book now or listen to pod casts because you only did those things when forced to commute, isn't a good argument against WFH.
I didn't read their post as an argument against WFH, just that they happened to like their routine. I happened to bike to work, about 10mi per day. I rarely get on my bike now, sure I could, but I liked the routine and it really helped me get exercise. Like the OP I'm not saying everyone should do that, just that it worked for me. If I had to commute 2hr in traffic by car I would absolutely prefer WFH.
Sometimes I do a “fake commute” by foot, walking around 15 min outside from my kitchen to my home office. The days I don’t want, I just walk into the home office. Sometimes I take this walk at the lunch break, or after work. I can accomplish errands sometimes.
So it is all about habits and freedom. Turns out freedom is not that easy to manage. Artists and self employed people have to be able to manage such things themselves (think writing an album at home), and it’s interesting to see that many people are struggling with that.
So it is all about habits and freedom. Turns out freedom is not that easy to manage. Artists and self employed people have to be able to manage such things themselves (think writing an album at home), and it’s interesting to see that many people are struggling with that.
If the air wasn't toxic I usually try to go for a couple walks with the dog around my place in the Oakland hills. Its pretty nice area to wander around. Some steep stairs provide some opportunity for a bit more strenuous exercise which is nice.
Oh right, keep safe then! Hope the situation gets better soon.
Exactly. As I said, I'm comfortable working from home and I see the advantages, it's just that the commute happens to be one of the pre-pandemic things that I miss. It's definitely something subjective, and in fact I would say that the trend of increasing remote work is generally beneficial.
This is an uncharitable, mean spirited take on the comment you’re responding to and you should feel bad for having submitted it. Please take a moment to draw upon empathy before posting in the future.
This is incorrectly being downvoted. The parent absolutely has a point, given GP's choice of words ("you can't seem to figure out how to read a book now...")
When I’m home my family wants to talk, watch TV or do so many other things not conducive to deep focus. On the train I can put on some music, and generally only be interrupted about once per hour.
And it’s not like there’s really any places to get deep focus anymore. The parks and plazas are filled with air pollution, cafes are takeout only and libraries are closed.
And it’s not like there’s really any places to get deep focus anymore. The parks and plazas are filled with air pollution, cafes are takeout only and libraries are closed.
Genuinely confused about the parks and plazas comment. Is this a specific regional air pollution concern or related to covid?
I thought that overall air pollution was way down, and covid dispersion outdoors was a minor concern. Where I'm at, I avoid indoor space maximally, but outdoors I am comfortable with 6 ft and a mask.
I thought that overall air pollution was way down, and covid dispersion outdoors was a minor concern. Where I'm at, I avoid indoor space maximally, but outdoors I am comfortable with 6 ft and a mask.
I wouldn’t think the commuting air is much better than in a park. Outside beats inside in most scenarios, doesn’t it?
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I think the biggest mistake people not used to WFH make is they drop too much of their routine. Of course I am not talking about the commute but I refer to simple events from taking a shower each morning to dressing for work. All these rituals are important and should only be discarded where its not viable.
I even make sure to my favorite fast food breakfast once a week and coffee twice a week. Fortunately for me that is but a ten minute drive one way to the closest place to fill that requirement but it fulfills the ritual.
One item to remember to add in to that time and money savings of your commute, you safety and security has gone up as well
I even make sure to my favorite fast food breakfast once a week and coffee twice a week. Fortunately for me that is but a ten minute drive one way to the closest place to fill that requirement but it fulfills the ritual.
One item to remember to add in to that time and money savings of your commute, you safety and security has gone up as well
In some places there clearly is a push towards "back to the office" for everyone. Which is quite different from "you can come back to the office if that works better for you". E.g. our offices are pretty empty (and thus safer to be in), but available to those that want them, whereas I see customers where there is clear pressure to be in the office if at all possible.
Exactly, I have a 1 bdrm apartment (in law) that I share with my wife. We alternate working at a desk in the living area, at the dining table or a folding table set up in the bedroom. I used to commute 20min by bike in the SF East Bay. I very infrequently go in when I need to do something in the lab (biotech company, not everything can be done remotely).
When I found this place I never intended for it to for it to be full time wfh space for 2 people.
If I knew I'd only go to the office once a month I could live in Minden, NV or something.
When I found this place I never intended for it to for it to be full time wfh space for 2 people.
If I knew I'd only go to the office once a month I could live in Minden, NV or something.
Yeah but then you'd have to live in Minden, NV. From a guy who grew up in Gardnerville, NV, it's sure as hell not a place I'd ever move to - if you're looking for the nature and tax break of Nevada outside Tahoe or Incline is probably much nicer.
Is Gardnerville bad though? Never been there but the town seems to have really cheap land, some beautiful ranch properties, reasonable proximity to Tahoe/skiing, and zero income tax. I know culture is not measured in $/sq.ft but as a Californian paying out the nose in taxes for nothing, it seems to be a pretty decent location.
My dad used to have a house there - other than the Basque food I can’t imagine why I’d go back
Where should I go for good basque food? I went to the hotel beside the train station in Winnemucca when I was driving through and it was interesting but didn't feel particularly authentic. Maybe that is authentic Basque-American food...
J.T. Basque Bar; but now that I punch the address in the house actually had a Minden address (well north of both towns). Minden itself is just big box strip mall territory.
Yeah, J.T. had okay food but there's not much going on, almost everyone I went to highschool with is still there doing min wage jobs at one of the fast food places or few stores that Walmart hasn't put out of business. Also, doesn't apply to everyone (obviously) but my experience was probably quite different because I'm part black - select experiences include being called N*gger while walking around town repeatedly, almost being run off the road by a guy with a confederate flag covering the back window of his truck, and having rocks thrown at me by schoolmates. To be clear, I'm not one of those people who care that much about "microagressions" and think I generally have pretty thick skin, but there were some situations where I felt physically unsafe because of my skin color. Also, if you have kids, they are not going to get a good education. Graduation rates were awful, I personally knew 2-3 kids in my class who committed suicide... Beautiful place from the outside and nice views with lots of space, tough place to live in reality.
I like the sagebrush and the wide open spaces. Lived in Eastern WA for a few years. Haven't really been out to Carson valley area much just seems appealing. Also, not sure I want to deal with shoveling tons of snow at Tahoe after 20+ years in Canada and the Midwest.
Might need to reconsider Minden though https://twitter.com/markpmeredith/status/1304932801649623040
Might need to reconsider Minden though https://twitter.com/markpmeredith/status/1304932801649623040
So? Ideally nobody would force you to stay at home, just like nobody would force your colleague to go to the office. Different people have different preferences, why not (try to) satisfy them all?
One of the problems of remote work is that it’s kind of an all or nothing thing for your team. If some people are in the office and some people work from home, inevitably (in my experience) a lot of small decisions get made in the office without consulting the remote workers. And that creates a divide - the people in the office end up with more power and authority than the remote folks.
Some teams fight this with some strict rules - eg insisting conversations between people sitting next to each other happen over slack. But I think it will usually work better in the long run if either everyone is in the office or basically everyone is remote.
Some teams fight this with some strict rules - eg insisting conversations between people sitting next to each other happen over slack. But I think it will usually work better in the long run if either everyone is in the office or basically everyone is remote.
I understand what you're saying but only with respect to global remote hires. I've seen the same attempts to fight it. But with local hires and optional wfh you just let that sort of problem work itself out. If the by-choice wfh person feels like they are left out its on them to do something about it. Its a personal problem not a team problem.
“You’re welcome to work from home, so long as you’re happy being systematically forgotten about in team decisions and passed over for promotions.”
Yeah, that’d definitely work itself out; but it’s not what I would describe as a remote friendly workplace.
Yeah, that’d definitely work itself out; but it’s not what I would describe as a remote friendly workplace.
I can't tell what you're arguing. An employee makes a daily conscious decision to wfh and is then upset about any consequences of doing so? Is this person an adult?
I think it’s ridiculous to accept those sort of downsides for remote workers. Working remotely doesn’t have to be a second class citizen to working from the office. It takes work to set up, but it can work great.
This is not ideal. Ideal is everyone at home or everyone in the office. Half half leads to people being left out.
I was forced to WFH, same as most of my colleagues. Most who keep going to work don't really have much choice (apart from resigning for which ain't the best time now). What are you talking about?
> Ideally
You missed a key word in the parent post.
_Ideally_ people wouldn't be forced into multiple hour long commutes either, but that has been the reality for many before this year.
You missed a key word in the parent post.
_Ideally_ people wouldn't be forced into multiple hour long commutes either, but that has been the reality for many before this year.
Comparing being "forced" to commute hours (in a house that you chose to live in when you took the job) is a bit disingenuous to being actually forced by a pandemic to not go into an office.
Im happy for all the people that can live happily hours outside of urban areas but the insistence that remote work is uniformly better for all people is just so exhausting. I for one, will be glad when it ends and will continue to prioritize companies that keep most of their work force in office; bringing work into my living space has been terrible for my mental health (anecdotally this sentiment has been shared among other single young people i know in the city).
Im happy for all the people that can live happily hours outside of urban areas but the insistence that remote work is uniformly better for all people is just so exhausting. I for one, will be glad when it ends and will continue to prioritize companies that keep most of their work force in office; bringing work into my living space has been terrible for my mental health (anecdotally this sentiment has been shared among other single young people i know in the city).
> the insistence that remote work is uniformly better for all people is just so exhausting
The insistence that we need to force everyone back into the office makes me quite upset.
The insistence that we need to force everyone back into the office makes me quite upset.
> His wife looks after kids who are at school most of the day again
This is the real story.
Suppose you're a company that pays someone a really handsome salary. It's a man. Do you want him in the office, where he is guaranteed to spend 0 hours taking care of kids, or at home, where it's not guaranteed?
Don't pin this on the wife. Do you think she'd rather he drive 2 hours a day and not take care of the kids, and get paid $400k/yr, or nothing, because whatever he's doing is actually very competitive and there will always someone else gunning for that job, so this obsequious rehash of the "well just work part time" idea that exclusively programmers engage in does not apply? So there is no actual option, part time take care of the kids?
This is the real story.
Suppose you're a company that pays someone a really handsome salary. It's a man. Do you want him in the office, where he is guaranteed to spend 0 hours taking care of kids, or at home, where it's not guaranteed?
Don't pin this on the wife. Do you think she'd rather he drive 2 hours a day and not take care of the kids, and get paid $400k/yr, or nothing, because whatever he's doing is actually very competitive and there will always someone else gunning for that job, so this obsequious rehash of the "well just work part time" idea that exclusively programmers engage in does not apply? So there is no actual option, part time take care of the kids?
> Do you want him in the office, where he is guaranteed to spend 0 hours taking care of kids
Almost all of the casual conversations with my kids are more interesting than the casual conversations with my coworkers.
The puzzle of the rare effective and profitable office conversation is kinda like the rare and effective advertisement; we simply accept that 99% of it is useless and force enormous amounts of engagement to promote those casual successful interactions.
Almost all of the casual conversations with my kids are more interesting than the casual conversations with my coworkers.
The puzzle of the rare effective and profitable office conversation is kinda like the rare and effective advertisement; we simply accept that 99% of it is useless and force enormous amounts of engagement to promote those casual successful interactions.
> Do you want him in the office, where he is guaranteed to spend 0 hours taking care of kids, or at home, where it's not guaranteed?
I want him wherever he feels he’s more productive. If that means he plays around with his kids 2 hours a day then more power to him.
I want him wherever he feels he’s more productive. If that means he plays around with his kids 2 hours a day then more power to him.
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Just 20 minutes one way adds up to 20 working days per year. That's 4 weeks of unpaid labor!
People are unhappy about extra money spent on Air Conditioning or an extra office chair but the most are happy to carry the opportunity cost of commute. :(
People are unhappy about extra money spent on Air Conditioning or an extra office chair but the most are happy to carry the opportunity cost of commute. :(
I have a 5 minute commute.
I make it 30 min by walking through a park to have a coffee in the morning and unwind before going home in the afternoon.
I make it 30 min by walking through a park to have a coffee in the morning and unwind before going home in the afternoon.
Definitely this. My employer is allowing for this flexibility / lifestyle choice by having offices for those who prefer to work from an office, as well as for those times when it would be easier to get together to collaborate. They’re still working through the details, but I think it’s a good balance.
As someone with a comfortable WFH situation, and a 1h commute, I’ll definitely be staying at home most of the time once offices re-open - and maybe even consider moving a bit further out for a bit more space.
As someone with a comfortable WFH situation, and a 1h commute, I’ll definitely be staying at home most of the time once offices re-open - and maybe even consider moving a bit further out for a bit more space.
I'm not sure. I think it's still too early for people to be comfortable going to open offices.
My company officially allowed on-site work again several weeks ago in NYC. I have one close colleague that tried it, and he was the only on in the office. I know several colleagues in small apartments that were not fans of not being in the office that have not returned yet.
Sure, more space at home makes it easier to drag this to the long term, but even people inconvenienced at home have found solutions for 180 days now, and aren't (at least with my company) jumping to come back.
My company officially allowed on-site work again several weeks ago in NYC. I have one close colleague that tried it, and he was the only on in the office. I know several colleagues in small apartments that were not fans of not being in the office that have not returned yet.
Sure, more space at home makes it easier to drag this to the long term, but even people inconvenienced at home have found solutions for 180 days now, and aren't (at least with my company) jumping to come back.
The most important thing is choice. Some people are better off telecommuting and some people prefer the office. Forcing someone to use the environment that's worse for them will make them unhappy.
I would be in favor of a number of working arrangements, ranging from working in a Bay Area office full-time(least favorite) to working from home most-time in an area that provides me with the chance to buy a home and have a reasonable commute to a satellite office.
I am absolutely, 100% against full-time WFH in an expensive, low-quality(no sound/thermal insulation) Bay Area apartment without a dedicated workspace.
> if your job can be done from home, it can be done from anywhere in the world
I will call anyone's bluff who says this. Do it. Good luck. If you haven't successfully done this already, there is a reason and you know it.
One final point is that anyone looking to judge my WFH productivity better take into account the endless procession of major disasters taking place outside my window. WFH in a pandemic with looting and massive wildfires is not the same as WFH in a 'normal' year.
I am absolutely, 100% against full-time WFH in an expensive, low-quality(no sound/thermal insulation) Bay Area apartment without a dedicated workspace.
> if your job can be done from home, it can be done from anywhere in the world
I will call anyone's bluff who says this. Do it. Good luck. If you haven't successfully done this already, there is a reason and you know it.
One final point is that anyone looking to judge my WFH productivity better take into account the endless procession of major disasters taking place outside my window. WFH in a pandemic with looting and massive wildfires is not the same as WFH in a 'normal' year.
>> if your job can be done from home, it can be done from anywhere in the world
> I will call anyone's bluff who says this. Do it. Good luck. If you haven't successfully done this already, there is a reason and you know it.
Welp, I'm the CEO of a smart wearable device company (https://pavlok.com). We were based in Boston because everyone told me, and I believed you HAD to be in one place to build a startup, and DEFINITELY for a hardware startup.
Then when I finally closed the Boston office and moved to Medellin, Colombia. Then budapest. Then Berlin. Then Bali. Then Mexico.
All while doing the same for the team -- remote first, work anywhere.
Only then did we begin to explode in productivity and success.
I don't think it's true for EVERY job (tough to do janitorial cleanup from another country). But it is possible for a lot lot lot lot more than you think.
> I will call anyone's bluff who says this. Do it. Good luck. If you haven't successfully done this already, there is a reason and you know it.
Welp, I'm the CEO of a smart wearable device company (https://pavlok.com). We were based in Boston because everyone told me, and I believed you HAD to be in one place to build a startup, and DEFINITELY for a hardware startup.
Then when I finally closed the Boston office and moved to Medellin, Colombia. Then budapest. Then Berlin. Then Bali. Then Mexico.
All while doing the same for the team -- remote first, work anywhere.
Only then did we begin to explode in productivity and success.
I don't think it's true for EVERY job (tough to do janitorial cleanup from another country). But it is possible for a lot lot lot lot more than you think.
Sorry I was unclear. What I was trying to say is that if you haven't offshored your team already(i.e. moved part of your engineering operations to E. Europe, Asia, etc.), then you have a good reason for doing so. Offshoring engineering has been going on for decades at this point. Anyone threatening that working from home means your job is a target for offshoring(to someone else, not you in that location) is full of beans. It's an empty threat.
I have no doubt that I could personally move to another country and do my job. I seriously considered it as a way to escape unfair alimony payments, and still might.
I have no doubt that I could personally move to another country and do my job. I seriously considered it as a way to escape unfair alimony payments, and still might.
> What I was trying to say is that if you haven't offshored your team already, then you have a good reason for doing so.
What if, pre-covid, the reason was "we believe having everyone in one office, regularly meeting face-to-face, is more productive than anything involving videoconferencing" ?
What if, pre-covid, the reason was "we believe having everyone in one office, regularly meeting face-to-face, is more productive than anything involving videoconferencing" ?
These companies certainly can try and great for them if they can make it work. If it was easy though it would have already happened to a greater extent.
Many companies have a history of failed outsourcing efforts. Or ones that didn't fail, but which failed to realize any costs savings.
And, of course, there are often other similar failures, like failures related to contractors, or failed attempts to switch from internally built software tools to third party vendors.
If a company has been around for 30 years and isn't using an option that seems much cheaper, there is going to be a history behind that.
And, of course, there are often other similar failures, like failures related to contractors, or failed attempts to switch from internally built software tools to third party vendors.
If a company has been around for 30 years and isn't using an option that seems much cheaper, there is going to be a history behind that.
We have never had the case where _everyone_ has to work remotely.
One of the reasons why offshoring failed is that you needed to be in the office to have a 30 second chat about something that saved you a few minutes of digging to find it yourself, which added up quickly.
This is no longer the case.
There are still reasons to not offshore, but we do not know if they are enough to keep it from happening. These conversations tell you more about the mentality of the people having them than about the viability of offshoring.
One of the reasons why offshoring failed is that you needed to be in the office to have a 30 second chat about something that saved you a few minutes of digging to find it yourself, which added up quickly.
This is no longer the case.
There are still reasons to not offshore, but we do not know if they are enough to keep it from happening. These conversations tell you more about the mentality of the people having them than about the viability of offshoring.
> I have no doubt that I could personally move to another country and do my job
Yes, but your compensation will be reduced. You can't take you SF salary into Eastern Europe.
Yes, but your compensation will be reduced. You can't take you SF salary into Eastern Europe.
How do you know the success explosion wasn't about to happen regardless?
Because I would have run out of money and died pretty soon after if I hadn’t left
Does that imply the key factor wax runway (captilal) rather than the remote work itself?
I don't think the point being made was that you can't have a remote workplace, it's that you can't just find the place in the world that has the cheapest labor and assume you'll be successful.
I can’t even with this comment.
Not everyone has the resources to make a working place anywhere viable. You seem to have the resources to make a hotel in Budapest or whatever work. Talking so causally about international travel already puts you beyond most Americans’ income.
So yeah it is very, very easy for folks with a job like yours, and with the resources you’re afforded, to work anywhere. The issue isn’t proximity to resources, but the ability to complete work.
Not everyone has the resources to make a working place anywhere viable. You seem to have the resources to make a hotel in Budapest or whatever work. Talking so causally about international travel already puts you beyond most Americans’ income.
So yeah it is very, very easy for folks with a job like yours, and with the resources you’re afforded, to work anywhere. The issue isn’t proximity to resources, but the ability to complete work.
It seems to be implied with the closing of their Boston office that the whole staff is remote, not just this person.
also that they had already built a strong team
Staying at AirBnBs in the listed cities and working from there is quite likely cheaper than renting office space in Boston (probably even including airfare). So it’s not about “resources” as in money, it’s about being able to be productive working from all these places, especially when taking into account the time zone difference to other members of the team.
Yes, and... I’d be curious to see which digital nomads follow the local taxes regulations. It’s easy to get in trouble with working abroad.
Fully agreed, taxes and work permit/visa are topics that are likely being neglected by most. Often, there simply isn’t a visa category that allows individuals to work for foreign entities while residing in another country, as regular work visas are for employment with an entity based in the country.
>regular work visas are for employment with an entity based in the country
Usually true. Although some countries (like China) do have a business visa that you're supposed to get if you're e.g. attending a business event.
With a US passport traveling to countries for example, there's nothing keeping you from visiting for a month or two and working from a short-term rental. I don't know all the theoretical rules that may exist but I know traveling partly/fully on business, people obviously do work for their US company all the time without filing any special paperwork.
Usually true. Although some countries (like China) do have a business visa that you're supposed to get if you're e.g. attending a business event.
With a US passport traveling to countries for example, there's nothing keeping you from visiting for a month or two and working from a short-term rental. I don't know all the theoretical rules that may exist but I know traveling partly/fully on business, people obviously do work for their US company all the time without filing any special paperwork.
I met these guys a long time ago in Boston. It's literally a company based on a physical device that shocks you to make you more productive. It's a fucking joke
We’ve sold over 100,000 devices and helped people quit smoking, wake up on time, and lose weight. You can see articles about our users in the NyTimes, Bloomberg, and more. Why such hate, for a product that helps people?
https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/a-shocking-way-rea...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/arti...
https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/a-shocking-way-rea...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/arti...
Don't be daft, an average US salary will get you an above average life almost anywhere else in the world.
Why does working remote-first require more resources from the worker? You don't have a commute and you have the flexibility to choose where to work. In this scenario, nobody is forcing you to travel anywhere—a sharp contrast to non-remote jobs where you have to relocate if you don't already live in the right, usually expensive, place!
Snacking, food, cleaning, equipment etc.
I moved out of Boston because we were spending money too quickly. I dropped non-personnel expenses by 80% by doing so....
Yeah, I don't know about working from "anywhere in the world"... I'm sure there's places without good internet, etc... that would make that difficult or impossible.
I can say one thing about it after being 100% WFH for 2+ years now, I can set my alarm clock, to wake me up exactly 1 hour before my morning video conference "standup" meeting, and still have time to wash-up, make coffee, watch the markets open, be properly awake and caffinated to participate in the meeting, etc...
Previously, depending on the total commute time, I would need to set that same alarm perhaps 2 hours or more in advance... the stress of the commute aside, I was getting less sleep on average, and in my line of work ( programming ) sleep is valuable to me, it helps me think better than when tired.
I feel more rested, healthier, happier, less stressed, and I know my productivity has INCREASED over the alternative in-office scenarios...
I can say one thing about it after being 100% WFH for 2+ years now, I can set my alarm clock, to wake me up exactly 1 hour before my morning video conference "standup" meeting, and still have time to wash-up, make coffee, watch the markets open, be properly awake and caffinated to participate in the meeting, etc...
Previously, depending on the total commute time, I would need to set that same alarm perhaps 2 hours or more in advance... the stress of the commute aside, I was getting less sleep on average, and in my line of work ( programming ) sleep is valuable to me, it helps me think better than when tired.
I feel more rested, healthier, happier, less stressed, and I know my productivity has INCREASED over the alternative in-office scenarios...
I'm an MD of a very small firm in the UK and I have had my mindset changed by events. A huge social experiment on homeworking has been done (and ongoing) and results are in.
I will make my commuters into remote workers by default unless they either want to come in or have to. One of my guys is Polish in Poland and can do whatever the hell he wants! Most of my staff are a bit stressed over SARS-COV-2, as am I but we will crack on.
I'm glad to hear you are thriving. You are one of the folks keeping your economy going (wherever that is) - take some pride in that.
I will make my commuters into remote workers by default unless they either want to come in or have to. One of my guys is Polish in Poland and can do whatever the hell he wants! Most of my staff are a bit stressed over SARS-COV-2, as am I but we will crack on.
I'm glad to hear you are thriving. You are one of the folks keeping your economy going (wherever that is) - take some pride in that.
> A huge social experiment on homeworking has been done (and ongoing) and results are in.
No they really aren't. It will be several years until we really understand the effect of remote work on areas like talent management, retention, idea generation, trust building, etc.
No they really aren't. It will be several years until we really understand the effect of remote work on areas like talent management, retention, idea generation, trust building, etc.
> A huge social experiment on homeworking has been done (and ongoing) and results are in.
Sort of? Unfortunately this experiment also has included forced isolation and social distancing, and for parents where schools and day care have closed, a further experiment in what happens when parents have to simultaneously do child care and get work done.
I expect it's hard to look at what's going on now and really see what prevalent home-working looks like in normal times, when there isn't a global pandemic going on, people can still meet co-workers when necessary, and friends for normal social activities, and parents can still send their kids to school and get in a productive day of work without constant interruptions from their kids.
Sort of? Unfortunately this experiment also has included forced isolation and social distancing, and for parents where schools and day care have closed, a further experiment in what happens when parents have to simultaneously do child care and get work done.
I expect it's hard to look at what's going on now and really see what prevalent home-working looks like in normal times, when there isn't a global pandemic going on, people can still meet co-workers when necessary, and friends for normal social activities, and parents can still send their kids to school and get in a productive day of work without constant interruptions from their kids.
My company (IT consultancy) is based in the SW of England. One of my employees is Polish and now lives in Poland. Mid 2019 he decided to return to Poland from here (got married, child born, look after ailing parents etc!) and we came to an agreement.
He gets paid UK rates for a UK job and lives in Poland as a sub-contractor. He may do other stuff there as well but I don't care - I get my pound of flesh 8) Poland is an hour ahead of the UK so he generally gets to run the 0800 start which works nicely.
Now this is not the new normal bollocks. It works for us and him. I can't ask him to go to Cardiff and roll out a few dozen new laptops but in general it doesn't matter that he is in a town in Poland that I can't possibly pronounce the name of, instead of Yeovil, when fixing a snag in Sherborne or Hull.
I and my company are very lucky that we can still function effectively, regardless of location. I as MD am now much more disposed towards home working. We were already pretty flexible but now I am far keener on even more flexibility. There are loads of silly and not so silly things to work out eg "I did x but n doesn't seem to be pulling their weight" etc. We need to invent mechanisms to deal with this. We already do a weekly get together on Teams but that is not good enough.
He gets paid UK rates for a UK job and lives in Poland as a sub-contractor. He may do other stuff there as well but I don't care - I get my pound of flesh 8) Poland is an hour ahead of the UK so he generally gets to run the 0800 start which works nicely.
Now this is not the new normal bollocks. It works for us and him. I can't ask him to go to Cardiff and roll out a few dozen new laptops but in general it doesn't matter that he is in a town in Poland that I can't possibly pronounce the name of, instead of Yeovil, when fixing a snag in Sherborne or Hull.
I and my company are very lucky that we can still function effectively, regardless of location. I as MD am now much more disposed towards home working. We were already pretty flexible but now I am far keener on even more flexibility. There are loads of silly and not so silly things to work out eg "I did x but n doesn't seem to be pulling their weight" etc. We need to invent mechanisms to deal with this. We already do a weekly get together on Teams but that is not good enough.
> I will call anyone's bluff who says this. Do it. Good luck. If you haven't successfully done this already, there is a reason and you know it.
I tend to agree. At least as it relates to offshoring. My company has been doing a 50/50 split between the US and Hyderabad/Pune for years, and there is no real danger of us moving everything to India. Good developers there aren't really that much cheaper than good developers in the US. The 10-12 hour offset is a huge impediment to success. Some folks there will work really late to make up for it, but there's still a pretty big gap. Not a lot we can do to make it better other than move entire groups over there and minimize communication requirements.
What I can see happening is more competition within the US. Having developers offset a couple hours is no big deal. Same culture, same language, and three hours ahead is just fine. We do that every day. So it may be that remote developers who used to work in expensive locations like SF will find that they can't command that salary when they are indistinguishable from any other remote developer in the continental US.
I tend to agree. At least as it relates to offshoring. My company has been doing a 50/50 split between the US and Hyderabad/Pune for years, and there is no real danger of us moving everything to India. Good developers there aren't really that much cheaper than good developers in the US. The 10-12 hour offset is a huge impediment to success. Some folks there will work really late to make up for it, but there's still a pretty big gap. Not a lot we can do to make it better other than move entire groups over there and minimize communication requirements.
What I can see happening is more competition within the US. Having developers offset a couple hours is no big deal. Same culture, same language, and three hours ahead is just fine. We do that every day. So it may be that remote developers who used to work in expensive locations like SF will find that they can't command that salary when they are indistinguishable from any other remote developer in the continental US.
> > if your job can be done from home, it can be done from anywhere in the world
> I will call anyone's bluff who says this. Do it. Good luck. If you haven't successfully done this already, there is a reason and you know it.
I can give an example here: Back in March/April, we were told that if we wanted to "WFH" in another state, we had to get approval first due to laws around payments and taxes. Some states were pre-approved because of remote workers we already employed, but most had to be looked into and it wasn't a guarantee they'd be approved.
> I will call anyone's bluff who says this. Do it. Good luck. If you haven't successfully done this already, there is a reason and you know it.
I can give an example here: Back in March/April, we were told that if we wanted to "WFH" in another state, we had to get approval first due to laws around payments and taxes. Some states were pre-approved because of remote workers we already employed, but most had to be looked into and it wasn't a guarantee they'd be approved.
if your job can be done from home, it can be done from anywhere in the world
Anyone who says this has never tried to work closely with someone in a timezone ~12 hours away.
Anyone who says this has never tried to work closely with someone in a timezone ~12 hours away.
>> if your job can be done from home, it can be done from anywhere in the world
> I will call anyone's bluff who says this. Do it. Good luck. If you haven't successfully done this already, there is a reason and you know it.
I'm a dev and I say confidently that I can code from anywhere and produce the exact same output as in an office. In fact, not having to deal with the stress of office conditions will almost surely get you better code out of me. Maybe you do something non-technical, but for most any tech job, I can't understand why you say this.
> I will call anyone's bluff who says this. Do it. Good luck. If you haven't successfully done this already, there is a reason and you know it.
I'm a dev and I say confidently that I can code from anywhere and produce the exact same output as in an office. In fact, not having to deal with the stress of office conditions will almost surely get you better code out of me. Maybe you do something non-technical, but for most any tech job, I can't understand why you say this.
It’s an interesting question.
First it’s wrong to assume there cannot exist multiple sets of laws in the same physical place, which reduces to effectively the economics of offshoring. Amazon delivery contractors deploy undocumented workers or people with unlicensed driving skills, paying them $7/hr and charging Amazon $15/hr. It’s economically positive for sure. The drivers live here. Is it really the same country or the same laws?
It’s also wrong to assume people have tried or will document the consequences of their try. Apple already earns more than $1m per retail employee. The gulf between Apple and BestBuy’s revenue per employee is much bigger than the savings due to offshoring anywhere in the world. I personally don’t think it’s obvious why Apple Retail stores are so successful, it is multifactorial and very difficult to reproduce, so even basic service jobs may never be worth trying to offshore (whatever that means) if there’s absolutely no way it could really matter. Another way of looking at it is that retail store bankruptcies occurring today were inevitable, the economics of what they were doing never made sense, so even if offshoring could save them money they were still doomed. This is a much harder conversation to have about IBM or Accenture, who have made offshoring a consistent economic positive for someone, we just can’t be sure it is for their clients or for them. However, it seems pretty obvious that a robot (or an abstraction thereof, like an automated warehouse) can do a lot of what retail workers do.
So I still think it’s all about the mechanics of the job, and it’s definitely a signal if you can WFH.
First it’s wrong to assume there cannot exist multiple sets of laws in the same physical place, which reduces to effectively the economics of offshoring. Amazon delivery contractors deploy undocumented workers or people with unlicensed driving skills, paying them $7/hr and charging Amazon $15/hr. It’s economically positive for sure. The drivers live here. Is it really the same country or the same laws?
It’s also wrong to assume people have tried or will document the consequences of their try. Apple already earns more than $1m per retail employee. The gulf between Apple and BestBuy’s revenue per employee is much bigger than the savings due to offshoring anywhere in the world. I personally don’t think it’s obvious why Apple Retail stores are so successful, it is multifactorial and very difficult to reproduce, so even basic service jobs may never be worth trying to offshore (whatever that means) if there’s absolutely no way it could really matter. Another way of looking at it is that retail store bankruptcies occurring today were inevitable, the economics of what they were doing never made sense, so even if offshoring could save them money they were still doomed. This is a much harder conversation to have about IBM or Accenture, who have made offshoring a consistent economic positive for someone, we just can’t be sure it is for their clients or for them. However, it seems pretty obvious that a robot (or an abstraction thereof, like an automated warehouse) can do a lot of what retail workers do.
So I still think it’s all about the mechanics of the job, and it’s definitely a signal if you can WFH.
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> working from home most time in an area that provides me with the chance to buy a home and have a reasonable commute to a satellite office
Companies will lower our salaries as we move to more affordable places to live. It already is dependent on location, people in the same team living in US and EU have different compensations.
Companies will lower our salaries as we move to more affordable places to live. It already is dependent on location, people in the same team living in US and EU have different compensations.
This final point is so important. I have been full-time WFH for the last ~6 years, and 2020 is by far and above 10x worse than any prior year. My immediate environment has not changed much, but the disruptions elsewhere have added up to quite the psychological burden.
> I will call anyone's bluff who says this. Do it. Good luck. If you haven't successfully done this already, there is a reason and you know it.
It's fine. They can force the expensive employee to teach the new cheap person everything they need to know in the few weeks before departure!
/s
It's fine. They can force the expensive employee to teach the new cheap person everything they need to know in the few weeks before departure!
/s
LOL, yeah, sure.
1. WFH is not for everyone. There are people with kids and no dedicated workplace at home. There are people with low motivation and self-control, and office routine just helps them to keep up.
2. You can't mix WFH with work in office. It's either one or the other. If you have a single employee working remotely - you should transform all the processes to WFH-style.
3. WFH shifts most of the burden onto management. Managers should put 120-150% of effort in planning, communication, documentation and checking. I never saw a single manager who likes WFH. And the management are the ones who decides.
2. You can't mix WFH with work in office. It's either one or the other. If you have a single employee working remotely - you should transform all the processes to WFH-style.
3. WFH shifts most of the burden onto management. Managers should put 120-150% of effort in planning, communication, documentation and checking. I never saw a single manager who likes WFH. And the management are the ones who decides.
> 2. You can't mix WFH with work in office. It's either one or the other. If you have a single employee working remotely - you should transform all the processes to WFH-style.
You don't provide the line of thinking behind this statement. Why do you think this is the case?
Also, even taking your statement at face value, you can still have a setup where there are fewer days in the office and more days working from home for every employee. Basically, have flexible in-office hours, whether that means only certain days, or certain parts of certain days.
This sort of flexibility could be of great benefit to the employee who has kids, or is just tired of sitting in traffic or crowded trains 5 days a week. As a bonus, it could reduce crowding on transit lines during peak hours.
You don't provide the line of thinking behind this statement. Why do you think this is the case?
Also, even taking your statement at face value, you can still have a setup where there are fewer days in the office and more days working from home for every employee. Basically, have flexible in-office hours, whether that means only certain days, or certain parts of certain days.
This sort of flexibility could be of great benefit to the employee who has kids, or is just tired of sitting in traffic or crowded trains 5 days a week. As a bonus, it could reduce crowding on transit lines during peak hours.
This is what I came here to say. As usual, arguments (just in the general) are polarised: it’s either in the office 40 hours a week or work from a beach in Thailand and nothing in between.
How about the sensible reality where we have an office, that we can get to, but we aren’t expected to turn up there every day just because? Where I work from home a few days a week to get that tricky stuff done – heaps harder in a distracting office – but then I go in a few days to connect with colleagues, catch up on the conversations, overhear things across the partition?
This saves my sanity, money, and time, and saves my employer ~50% of their office space. Win-win, surely?
(Not that I disagree with the sentiment that all processes should be made WFH-friendly. I think that’s very sensible. But it doesn’t mean that I necessarily must WFH the whole time.)
How about the sensible reality where we have an office, that we can get to, but we aren’t expected to turn up there every day just because? Where I work from home a few days a week to get that tricky stuff done – heaps harder in a distracting office – but then I go in a few days to connect with colleagues, catch up on the conversations, overhear things across the partition?
This saves my sanity, money, and time, and saves my employer ~50% of their office space. Win-win, surely?
(Not that I disagree with the sentiment that all processes should be made WFH-friendly. I think that’s very sensible. But it doesn’t mean that I necessarily must WFH the whole time.)
I believe their argument is that if you have one remote person you need to have a remote culture so that person is not left out of communications. If you rely on the office to communicate, a remote person is going to really miss out.
>saves my employer ~50% of their office space. Win-win, surely?
Only if you hotel, which a lot of people don't want.
In general, I agree with you. But if that's the norm it means people still need to live at least somewhat accessible to the office. For even one day per week, a 3 hour each way commute isn't really sustainable.
And what if a team consists almost entirely of people who want to come in 3 or 4 days per week? They'll likely end up just ghosting the one person who will reluctantly drag themselves in 1 day per week.
Only if you hotel, which a lot of people don't want.
In general, I agree with you. But if that's the norm it means people still need to live at least somewhat accessible to the office. For even one day per week, a 3 hour each way commute isn't really sustainable.
And what if a team consists almost entirely of people who want to come in 3 or 4 days per week? They'll likely end up just ghosting the one person who will reluctantly drag themselves in 1 day per week.
I’ve worked at companies where this was done right and wrong.
From my experience, if most employees are in an office and only a minority are remote, the remote employees are at a big disadvantage, unless the company (or remote employees) actively work to make sure they’re included in as much as possible.
If it’s in the company’s culture to have lots of ad-hoc in-person conversations where remote employees are unlikely to be included, they’re going to have a bad time. If those conversations mostly happen in chat or scheduled meetings with video chat, then it might work.
I think it’s probably better to just have whole teams be entirely (or at least majority) remote, or entirely onsite.
From my experience, if most employees are in an office and only a minority are remote, the remote employees are at a big disadvantage, unless the company (or remote employees) actively work to make sure they’re included in as much as possible.
If it’s in the company’s culture to have lots of ad-hoc in-person conversations where remote employees are unlikely to be included, they’re going to have a bad time. If those conversations mostly happen in chat or scheduled meetings with video chat, then it might work.
I think it’s probably better to just have whole teams be entirely (or at least majority) remote, or entirely onsite.
Sorry, I was too consumed by making a clear statements and didn't put enough effort into arguments.
First of all, I am talking about teams of 20+ employees, e.g. 3 pizz-teams or more. This is a number when you definitely need two levels of management, event if one of them consists of makers-managers, e.g. teamleads.
That is the scale where you can't keep all the data in one head. So the information is distributed among employees, managers and no one has a full pucture. Some people know their segments with specifics, some has a helicopter view with coarse details.
Now, in office-based team you have a privilege to keep most of the data in the heads, because everyone can just walk to anyone and talk to them at the end of the day (pun intended).
You have those daily stand-ups, weekly all-hands, but most of the data are still don't have a hard copies. Of course you are writing specs, maybe you are writing docs, chances are you are writing company-wide weekly updates (and wondering if anyone actually reading it).
I know a lot of companies where people just changed in-person meetings to Zoom and are thinking they are fully remote now, In fact, they are just burning through data savings in their employees heads. It becomes visible rignt about now, after about 6 months of this quasi-remote. Teams are slowly turning into mess where right hand has no idea about left one. What took couple of weeks now takes month or even longer.
So, managers are trying to fight it with more conference-calling, more reporting, itemized plans and Gant diagrams, putting some pressure to engineers. At the same time engineers are trying to restore horisontal communications via chats, which leads to distraction and further loss of productivity.
This is because remote teams should work in a completely different manner. Great example is Gitlab, check out their handbook [0]. Mind you - that this is just a tip of the iceberg, they are incredibly transparent, but they are showing less than 5% of what they have.
So, in fully remote company you should organize all processes and workflows in a manner when no one should be synchronized with anyone in real time. You should ditch conference-calling almost entirely and record remaining video meetings to be available later. You should switch from chats back to emails, yes! You have to write down everything: specs, docs, meeting protocols, decisions - both accepted and rejected. And this is just a beginning: you also should keep all those in an actual state. Do you know a lot of companies where documentation and code are 100% coherent 100% of the time? I don't.
And of course most of this work is falling onto managers' shoulders: not only writing stuff by themselves, but checking that everyone else is writing stuff too.
Some people (even in this thread) may say that their company is doing just fine without all this and they are just happy saving commuting time. But I am sure they are just being ineffective, which means sooner or later they will be predated by more effective competitors.
[0] https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/
First of all, I am talking about teams of 20+ employees, e.g. 3 pizz-teams or more. This is a number when you definitely need two levels of management, event if one of them consists of makers-managers, e.g. teamleads.
That is the scale where you can't keep all the data in one head. So the information is distributed among employees, managers and no one has a full pucture. Some people know their segments with specifics, some has a helicopter view with coarse details.
Now, in office-based team you have a privilege to keep most of the data in the heads, because everyone can just walk to anyone and talk to them at the end of the day (pun intended).
You have those daily stand-ups, weekly all-hands, but most of the data are still don't have a hard copies. Of course you are writing specs, maybe you are writing docs, chances are you are writing company-wide weekly updates (and wondering if anyone actually reading it).
I know a lot of companies where people just changed in-person meetings to Zoom and are thinking they are fully remote now, In fact, they are just burning through data savings in their employees heads. It becomes visible rignt about now, after about 6 months of this quasi-remote. Teams are slowly turning into mess where right hand has no idea about left one. What took couple of weeks now takes month or even longer.
So, managers are trying to fight it with more conference-calling, more reporting, itemized plans and Gant diagrams, putting some pressure to engineers. At the same time engineers are trying to restore horisontal communications via chats, which leads to distraction and further loss of productivity.
This is because remote teams should work in a completely different manner. Great example is Gitlab, check out their handbook [0]. Mind you - that this is just a tip of the iceberg, they are incredibly transparent, but they are showing less than 5% of what they have.
So, in fully remote company you should organize all processes and workflows in a manner when no one should be synchronized with anyone in real time. You should ditch conference-calling almost entirely and record remaining video meetings to be available later. You should switch from chats back to emails, yes! You have to write down everything: specs, docs, meeting protocols, decisions - both accepted and rejected. And this is just a beginning: you also should keep all those in an actual state. Do you know a lot of companies where documentation and code are 100% coherent 100% of the time? I don't.
And of course most of this work is falling onto managers' shoulders: not only writing stuff by themselves, but checking that everyone else is writing stuff too.
Some people (even in this thread) may say that their company is doing just fine without all this and they are just happy saving commuting time. But I am sure they are just being ineffective, which means sooner or later they will be predated by more effective competitors.
[0] https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/
> I never saw a single manager who likes WFH
I do. But you've never seen me, so there is truth to your words.
The employees are quite productive, I hate commuting, and Zoom works remarkably well to stay connected. Not as well as it could be, but it's finally "over the hill".
Two things worry me:
- The long-term isolation is detrimental to mental health, so we might be on borrowed time right now.
- Onboarding new employees might become more difficult absent ongoing visual contact.
I do. But you've never seen me, so there is truth to your words.
The employees are quite productive, I hate commuting, and Zoom works remarkably well to stay connected. Not as well as it could be, but it's finally "over the hill".
Two things worry me:
- The long-term isolation is detrimental to mental health, so we might be on borrowed time right now.
- Onboarding new employees might become more difficult absent ongoing visual contact.
> The long-term isolation is detrimental to mental health, so we might be on borrowed time right now.
With WFH I feel like my social life is better than ever, even with the "quarantine". Due to the flexibility of work days I can meet friends outside at parks and enjoy socializing at a safe distance. This may change in the winter.
With WFH I feel like my social life is better than ever, even with the "quarantine". Due to the flexibility of work days I can meet friends outside at parks and enjoy socializing at a safe distance. This may change in the winter.
If you were working in a truly remote company, onboarding would be the first process polishied to diamond facet condition. I think your company is not "living on borrowed time", but burning through information capital saved during previous years.
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> 2. You can't mix WFH with work in office. It's either one or the other. If you have a single employee working remotely - you should transform all the processes to WFH-style.
^ This is not true.
Where I work we have a mix of people who work exclusively from home, some who work some days at home and some in-office, and some who work exclusively from the office. This is including managers (some of whom like working from home, btw). Some people's jobs work better with one arrangement, some with another.
It was like that before March, and now way more people work exclusively from home.
Now I'm sure there are some jobs where having a mix complicates things too much, but it is definitely not universally true that having a mix never works.
My workplace is no special case either, I know of others that work the same way.
[ edited to remove unintentional indentation ]
^ This is not true.
Where I work we have a mix of people who work exclusively from home, some who work some days at home and some in-office, and some who work exclusively from the office. This is including managers (some of whom like working from home, btw). Some people's jobs work better with one arrangement, some with another.
It was like that before March, and now way more people work exclusively from home.
Now I'm sure there are some jobs where having a mix complicates things too much, but it is definitely not universally true that having a mix never works.
My workplace is no special case either, I know of others that work the same way.
[ edited to remove unintentional indentation ]
Is it better now that everyone is working from home now?
Not in general of course but in the way you're asking, yes.
My broader team was already pretty distributed around North America and Europe already. And other groups I work with were pretty distributed as well. But some were in offices and would do calls from conference rooms. It is better, to at least some degree, with everyone now on their own camera/microphone. (And in fact a couple sub-teams already had a rule that everyone did calls from their own computer/phone.)
My broader team was already pretty distributed around North America and Europe already. And other groups I work with were pretty distributed as well. But some were in offices and would do calls from conference rooms. It is better, to at least some degree, with everyone now on their own camera/microphone. (And in fact a couple sub-teams already had a rule that everyone did calls from their own computer/phone.)
I like it better, and the other developers like it better. It is a very good fit for our jobs, and has advantages that all of us very much appreciate.
I haven't done a company-wide survey :-D However, I have not seen complaints from anyone just dying to get back to the office.
I haven't done a company-wide survey :-D However, I have not seen complaints from anyone just dying to get back to the office.
> You can't mix WFH with work in office.
While I agree, I think there is room for organizations to at least be remote friendly. I'd love to work for an organization that allowed for WFH in the middle of build cycles/sprints and keeping a more strict at-office policy during planing phases of projects.
While I agree, I think there is room for organizations to at least be remote friendly. I'd love to work for an organization that allowed for WFH in the middle of build cycles/sprints and keeping a more strict at-office policy during planing phases of projects.
> I never saw a single manager who likes WFH.
You never saw them because they were WFH :D
But seriously, I've had managers who were happy to WFH a few times a week, though that team was pretty much self-managing on a day-to-day basis with the manager mostly there to make organisational decisions and to provide cover from above.
You never saw them because they were WFH :D
But seriously, I've had managers who were happy to WFH a few times a week, though that team was pretty much self-managing on a day-to-day basis with the manager mostly there to make organisational decisions and to provide cover from above.
> WFH shifts most of the burden onto management. Managers should put 120-150% of effort in planning, communication, documentation and checking.
I don't understand the connection between the first and second statements. Can you clarify? How does WFH put more burden on management?
I don't understand the connection between the first and second statements. Can you clarify? How does WFH put more burden on management?
Those people with kids would presumably have to make other arrangements if they were in an office?
> single employee working remotelyl
I can’t disagree with any of your points, but for the past decade, I’ve mostly worked for huge corporations with multiple offices in multiple cities, and have only rarely worked with anybody I’m in the same building (or even the same city) as, including my boss. Until this year, they’ve demanded I physically drive to the office anyway, but there’s never been any reason; I’ve been on zoom calls all day anyway.
I can’t disagree with any of your points, but for the past decade, I’ve mostly worked for huge corporations with multiple offices in multiple cities, and have only rarely worked with anybody I’m in the same building (or even the same city) as, including my boss. Until this year, they’ve demanded I physically drive to the office anyway, but there’s never been any reason; I’ve been on zoom calls all day anyway.
I have been working for years in a company that mixed WFH and office, it depends how you do it. In our case we meet at the office periodically to catch up but not every day not everybody and not in every location. The schedule is built according to teams, their specific work needs and time constraints. It require some level of trust but from my experience comparing to office only or wfh only places I worked for, the combined approach is the best. We are mostly people with families so a bit more responsible and appreciative of having time at home but also wanting to escape home from time to time if you know what i mean. So it works perfect.
When I was building back end software, I could and did work from anywhere. I enjoyed working in the same space with my team, but not all day and not every day. And it wasn't necessary except maybe once or twice per quarter.
Now I work on firmware, and I have about $6000 of test equipment that is required to do my job, as well as multiple fragile circuit boards, some that I'm afraid to touch because some of the rework wires might break. I am working at home, but I guarantee that I'm not as productive as I would be in an office with access to the EEs and MEs and the people who built the firmware for the previous version of the product. Yes, I can schedule a call or ask questions on Slack, but so much is passed to new team members by osmosis or exposure or context, whatever you want to call that side effect of colocation.
> The best thing you can do in any period of change is to bet on neither black or white.
I agree, in some cases. There are still some cases where the best bet IS almost entirely black, or almost entirely white.
Now I work on firmware, and I have about $6000 of test equipment that is required to do my job, as well as multiple fragile circuit boards, some that I'm afraid to touch because some of the rework wires might break. I am working at home, but I guarantee that I'm not as productive as I would be in an office with access to the EEs and MEs and the people who built the firmware for the previous version of the product. Yes, I can schedule a call or ask questions on Slack, but so much is passed to new team members by osmosis or exposure or context, whatever you want to call that side effect of colocation.
> The best thing you can do in any period of change is to bet on neither black or white.
I agree, in some cases. There are still some cases where the best bet IS almost entirely black, or almost entirely white.
I've noticed the a similar thing working with game console devkits. I can get most of my work done remotely, but due to the streaming/latency required it feels slower. I feel like for certain performance-sensitive tasks I'd need a special day in front of the hardware to test things.
For sure this is true, my girlfriend is QC at a major game company and watching her work from home is _painful_. Though Citrix is better than Parsec, and both are far better than Remote Desktop (in a huge way).
I have been pushing for Stadia as a primary testing platform, but the backend is quite painful to use (please don't hurt me google, I know I signed an anti-disparagement agreement, but your backend is really inflexible).
But I think this is the 'old way of working', we're so fearful of losing devkits (and the software on them) that we keep them in the office, but that's not realistically much safer really.
As a sidenote though: it's quite fun to see the game working on a tiny little MacBook.
I have been pushing for Stadia as a primary testing platform, but the backend is quite painful to use (please don't hurt me google, I know I signed an anti-disparagement agreement, but your backend is really inflexible).
But I think this is the 'old way of working', we're so fearful of losing devkits (and the software on them) that we keep them in the office, but that's not realistically much safer really.
As a sidenote though: it's quite fun to see the game working on a tiny little MacBook.
Sounds like something blizzard would do.
The devkits are often contractually obligated to be in a secure facility.
Is that necessary anymore though? Consoles have been x86 and effectively almost identical to commodity PCs for 7+ years (and the original (pre-release) Xbox One devkit was a PC: just a souped-up HP Z-series workstation, if I remember correctly).
You could do what we did in some distributed teams at Google: just have a permanent "call" going with everyone normally muted. When someone would like to receive attention, they unmute and speak. It's not as good as walking up to someone's desk, but it's not as bad as having to schedule a call in advance.
With hardware there's really no substitute for having a stocked lab and good technician in the building. A broken blue wire or fried chip could mean me losing an hour to a day of productivity depending on whether I have parts on hand and how difficult the rework is. In the office it could be fixed before I had time to grab coffee.
As an EE I know what you're talking about. But office won't be an option until November 4th. /s
This sounds miserable. What did you do for periods of deep work?
People used it very sparingly. It's not at all different from working in an open plan office. If anything it's better, as you can drop off from the call if you don't want to be disturbed. No such luxury in the office. And of course this only works with Google's usual "family sized" teams of 5-7 people.
My team has a similar tool. So, everyone is in the room, muted and no-volume. So, if someone needs my attention they can send a bell but when my audio is off its only a visual bell, so it won't interrupt the deep work. And one can always exit the channel if needed - which is shown in status, so folks know your DND or not available.
But, one can monitor the channel so it behaves like a water cooler too. And up-scales to video and screen share super fast. (Faster than other tools) It's really quite flexible.
We've been using this pattern for about 60 months. We all (6 humans) seem to like it OK.
But, one can monitor the channel so it behaves like a water cooler too. And up-scales to video and screen share super fast. (Faster than other tools) It's really quite flexible.
We've been using this pattern for about 60 months. We all (6 humans) seem to like it OK.
Is this an in-house tool?
Seems that they said it is; however, you could do all this with Zoom, for instance.
To be in the room muted and with no volume, disconnect the audio connection.
To ask for someone's attention, send them a direct chat message (not to Everyone).
And of course you could always leave the Zoom meeting and rejoin later.
To be in the room muted and with no volume, disconnect the audio connection.
To ask for someone's attention, send them a direct chat message (not to Everyone).
And of course you could always leave the Zoom meeting and rejoin later.
Yep. Built with Apache, PHP, Sqlite and PeerJS
So being focused on a task is now called deep work? I will never be able to keep up with all the terminology.
That sounds worse in all possible ways than just having a messenger service like Slack but I suppose different teams work in different ways.
I prefer slack's @$name method better. If you don't need an answer right away just drop it in the group chat. if you need attention do an @ so they hear the bell. Of course they could have just emailed... but that is so passe now. :)
The long term shakeout of this will be that everybody realizes that yes, we need offices. They are spaces literally built for working. The required footprint will be smaller, people won't need to be in the office for absolutely everything, the demand for square footage of commercial real estate will decrease a bit—good news for cities who don't build b/c they can convert excess commercial inventory to residential.
But we have also found a vast increase in productivity that we probably won't see in the numbers until we can separate it out from all the other crazy shit that's been happening. The efficiencies gained in every white collar business being forced to make remote work to some degree are significant, and I think as of yet underrated.
So no we're not all going to be sipping cocktails on the beach (though more of us might) but we will be better off. Big exogenous shocks tend to find hidden productivities, even if the shock part really sucks.
But we have also found a vast increase in productivity that we probably won't see in the numbers until we can separate it out from all the other crazy shit that's been happening. The efficiencies gained in every white collar business being forced to make remote work to some degree are significant, and I think as of yet underrated.
So no we're not all going to be sipping cocktails on the beach (though more of us might) but we will be better off. Big exogenous shocks tend to find hidden productivities, even if the shock part really sucks.
I am not so sure productivity has definitely improved.
I agree there was a good head of steam where people were able to quietly and independently work through their "list" of stuff they wanted to do for ages but never had the chance to etc, or whatever had previously been planned out.
Now months later I feel like things are starting to grind a bit and productivity is starting to wane because the "pipe" is starting to dry up. Those ad hoc conversations that lead to a new feature, bumping into someone in the corridor who mentions some big issue they're having, meeting and talking to end users, the offsites to work out the strategy for next quarter, day-long workshops with UX and management and users and post-it notes galore where we thrash out ideas and concepts are a distant memory. Instead we have stilted video calls where people sit on mute 95% of the time and there simply is not as much collaboration as there was before.
Sure stuff still happens, but it feels like to me that the "spark" from people who usually generate ideas and set the agenda/work items is reduced significantly - if not entirely gone - and people are just going through the motions somewhat mechanically and "doing the best they can given the circumstances" etc.
I agree there was a good head of steam where people were able to quietly and independently work through their "list" of stuff they wanted to do for ages but never had the chance to etc, or whatever had previously been planned out.
Now months later I feel like things are starting to grind a bit and productivity is starting to wane because the "pipe" is starting to dry up. Those ad hoc conversations that lead to a new feature, bumping into someone in the corridor who mentions some big issue they're having, meeting and talking to end users, the offsites to work out the strategy for next quarter, day-long workshops with UX and management and users and post-it notes galore where we thrash out ideas and concepts are a distant memory. Instead we have stilted video calls where people sit on mute 95% of the time and there simply is not as much collaboration as there was before.
Sure stuff still happens, but it feels like to me that the "spark" from people who usually generate ideas and set the agenda/work items is reduced significantly - if not entirely gone - and people are just going through the motions somewhat mechanically and "doing the best they can given the circumstances" etc.
I think it's more that the ability to work remotely has been unlocked for pretty much every business that operates online (which, as I type it, sounds kind of crazy that it didn't already work that way).
At the very least, for the most part, businesses won't forget that possibility, even if they don't rely on it heavily post-pandemic. We've removed a significant blocker, that doesn't necessarily mean that we've reinvented the office dynamic or anything like that, but we've at least opened up a new channel for some businesses that didn't have it before, which IMO is objective improvement.
At the very least, for the most part, businesses won't forget that possibility, even if they don't rely on it heavily post-pandemic. We've removed a significant blocker, that doesn't necessarily mean that we've reinvented the office dynamic or anything like that, but we've at least opened up a new channel for some businesses that didn't have it before, which IMO is objective improvement.
Now months later I feel like things are starting to grind a bit and productivity is starting to wane because the "pipe" is starting to dry up.
My employer mandated a return to the office about 2 weeks ago. Productivity has declined compared to when we were all WFH for 6 months and I have the stats - pull requests, builds pushed to prod, tickets opened, all are down.
My employer mandated a return to the office about 2 weeks ago. Productivity has declined compared to when we were all WFH for 6 months and I have the stats - pull requests, builds pushed to prod, tickets opened, all are down.
Yes, but some middle manager gets to claim his paycheck due to having more meetings in the office now.
This whole thing is so multifaceted I think it’s hard to draw any conclusions from it. In CA, we have COVID and fires so I’m essentially a prisoner in my house. If you locked me in my office, my productivity might go up too. But now that’s school is on and my kids are locked in here too. Productivity goes down. All in all, it’s a bumpy ride.
Is this a problem though? Is business suffering? Are there metrics on that?
Is it possible that folks substituted their commute for extra work hours? There’s really not much to do, socially, when everything is locked down. Some people might take it as a chance to be a workaholic (with the possible burnout not in mind). In the office, I am pressured by folks walking by into leaving “on time” (they don’t realize I often start later than them).
Some people I have talked to are seeing this in their workplaces. They are having to tell the engineers not to work too hard so they don't burn out. Seeing 2+ hours a day of extra work.
Out of curiosity, how did your employer convince people to accept the increased risk of covid19 transmission that comes from working in the office?
Easy. Tell them they can come to work or find another job.
I think you may have misunderstood my post. I was asking how that particular employer handled the topic with its employees.
I'm trying to understand how much negotiating power software developers have with their employers these days; in general and on this topic in particular.
I'm trying to understand how much negotiating power software developers have with their employers these days; in general and on this topic in particular.
The same here. In addition, I see social problems accumulate slowly and the team seems to be failing apart. Interpersonal issues are nit solved until they boil in the home office, in person people were more eager to speak up about issues faster and more often.
I'm talking about macro level gains. When your small local accountant figures out how to manage work from home a few days per week that creates small, cumulative gains over the whole of the economy. Hard to quantify right now, especially because of all the noise going on. i.e. GDP is currently getting slaughtered for reasons other than lack of productive business practices. I do think that it's harder to notice from the vantage of tech since it is probably the most remote-ready industry. Talking to finance bros I get a very strong sense that people are getting a lot more done in some regards and suffering in others. When offices come back, they'll divide up the tasks appropriate to the milieu and gain some incremental productivity as a result.
Similarly distance education sucks. It's sucked forever buuuuut, with whole countries attempting to manage distance education at the same time across all educational institutions, I am very optimistic that we will find some new techniques that will have huge returns but it will take a while for those techniques to gain dominance.
I could be totally wrong about this, but we'll find out for sure in the next few years.
Similarly distance education sucks. It's sucked forever buuuuut, with whole countries attempting to manage distance education at the same time across all educational institutions, I am very optimistic that we will find some new techniques that will have huge returns but it will take a while for those techniques to gain dominance.
I could be totally wrong about this, but we'll find out for sure in the next few years.
> When your small local accountant figures out how to manage work from home a few days per week that creates small, cumulative gains
But what are those gains you get from working from home? The only "real" one I can think of is no commute ... but that removes productivity from the businesses now failing and going bankrupt because they have no/reduced customers.
Plus the commute is not just dead time, at least for me I usually triage my inbox before I arrive at the office. Now I just waste time and have an extra bowl of cereal it read the internet for half an hour instead of doing anything useful.
But what are those gains you get from working from home? The only "real" one I can think of is no commute ... but that removes productivity from the businesses now failing and going bankrupt because they have no/reduced customers.
Plus the commute is not just dead time, at least for me I usually triage my inbox before I arrive at the office. Now I just waste time and have an extra bowl of cereal it read the internet for half an hour instead of doing anything useful.
"The commute" is a massive societal inefficiency. How many hours, how much time (and how much CO2) is just wasted?
Those businesses may fail, but the money will go somewhere else, somewhere else that doesn't involve me wasting four hours a day.
I occasionaly worked on my commute, but most of the time was wasted, and now I'm free to use the time how I want.
Those businesses may fail, but the money will go somewhere else, somewhere else that doesn't involve me wasting four hours a day.
I occasionaly worked on my commute, but most of the time was wasted, and now I'm free to use the time how I want.
You've identified it. We're talking about productivity gains, so that accountant gets as much done as they did before, minus the commute time. At a bare minimum, that's doing 8 hours of work in 8 hours, versus 8 hours of work in 10 hours, or whatever your commute is. People who drive (most people) cannot usually perform economic activity during their commute. Better yet, maybe that accountant figures that they really work for 4-6 hours of the day and the rest is kind of wasted on chitchat or looking busy. The autonomy to quietly get work done in less time will grant that worker even more hours in the day.
There may be GDP effects that counterbalance this. Less money spent on gas or at small businesses near the employer. However, as suburbs have more at-home workers, more lunch spots will pop up nearby so I doubt the GDP effects are big. Sure, some might spend their productivity gains enjoying an extra bowl of cereal, but there's nothing wrong with that.
There may be GDP effects that counterbalance this. Less money spent on gas or at small businesses near the employer. However, as suburbs have more at-home workers, more lunch spots will pop up nearby so I doubt the GDP effects are big. Sure, some might spend their productivity gains enjoying an extra bowl of cereal, but there's nothing wrong with that.
I think the economy and productivity and everything else that makes economy and work tick are way more complex than your simplification to no commute = massive gains for economy, companies and happy new future for everybody is coming.
I see it in abundance in every single discussion here and elsewhere - people who hate commute but for whatever bad/stupid reason ended up far far away and were wasting hours every day on it suddenly have extra time and its great. These people keep praising current state as the best invention since fire. Most companies aren't organized around that last time I checked.
Maybe its a very US thing and true there on really massive scale. But here in Europe its not like that, not that much at least. Most folks commute 20-50 minutes. That is for 2nd biggest city in the country, smaller are more effective.
There are massive issues right now. Physical fitness is rapidly declining. People are going less out, less sun exposure. Amount of mental issues is understandably shooting through the roof (saw some firures about 5x increase in some cases). Economy is going down the toilet, some parts of it will crash very hard, possibly unrecoverably in current generation. These are effects that will be around for very long time even if we have 100% cure for covid tomorrow for 1 cent per dose.
Plus what parent wrote is absolutely, 100% true - I see people tired from constant conf calls and full remote. Mailboxes are exploding, it becomes hard to track emails even few weeks old. Brainstormings are mostly gone, people became more robot-like. Whatever you gain from not commuting from that middle of nowhere you live in means nothing compared to all this. For companies and for economies.
I see it in abundance in every single discussion here and elsewhere - people who hate commute but for whatever bad/stupid reason ended up far far away and were wasting hours every day on it suddenly have extra time and its great. These people keep praising current state as the best invention since fire. Most companies aren't organized around that last time I checked.
Maybe its a very US thing and true there on really massive scale. But here in Europe its not like that, not that much at least. Most folks commute 20-50 minutes. That is for 2nd biggest city in the country, smaller are more effective.
There are massive issues right now. Physical fitness is rapidly declining. People are going less out, less sun exposure. Amount of mental issues is understandably shooting through the roof (saw some firures about 5x increase in some cases). Economy is going down the toilet, some parts of it will crash very hard, possibly unrecoverably in current generation. These are effects that will be around for very long time even if we have 100% cure for covid tomorrow for 1 cent per dose.
Plus what parent wrote is absolutely, 100% true - I see people tired from constant conf calls and full remote. Mailboxes are exploding, it becomes hard to track emails even few weeks old. Brainstormings are mostly gone, people became more robot-like. Whatever you gain from not commuting from that middle of nowhere you live in means nothing compared to all this. For companies and for economies.
> There are massive issues right now. Physical fitness is rapidly declining. People are going less out, less sun exposure. Amount of mental issues is understandably shooting through the roof (saw some firures about 5x increase in some cases). Economy is going down the toilet, some parts of it will crash very hard, possibly unrecoverably in current generation. These are effects that will be around for very long time even if we have 100% cure for covid tomorrow for 1 cent per dose.
It'll be really hard to discuss remote work productively if you keep conflating it with COVID-induced issues.
It'll be really hard to discuss remote work productively if you keep conflating it with COVID-induced issues.
Try to give a generous reading, we're speaking in short paragraphs on the internet. My argument was that a shortened commute is a real productivity increase. That's one of any number of hypotheticals that depend on industry by industry specifics.
If you'll read the thread all the way through, you'll notice that I'm a big fan of offices. I think the issues you and mattlondon raise are real—fitness, mental health, etc.—but those are temporary issues since people will eventually start going back to the office.
We will gain because through this experience, many firms will discover efficiencies from remote work and be able to apply them in a judicious way when things are back to normal.
If you'll read the thread all the way through, you'll notice that I'm a big fan of offices. I think the issues you and mattlondon raise are real—fitness, mental health, etc.—but those are temporary issues since people will eventually start going back to the office.
We will gain because through this experience, many firms will discover efficiencies from remote work and be able to apply them in a judicious way when things are back to normal.
Future generations should be gaining an incalculable amount from the reduced fuel consumption resulting from the reduced travel and related consumption.
for me the no commute is huge. I went from putting more than 200 miles a week on my car to barely doing that in a month (and a lot of that is just driving for pleasure). I used to spend $120-150 a month on gas; now I don't even visit a gas station every month. I'm also cooking lunch at home instead of going out several times a week for mediocre takeout. saves me a good chunk of change and I'm eating healthier and tastier food.
> Plus the commute is not just dead time, at least for me I usually triage my inbox before I arrive at the office. Now I just waste time and have an extra bowl of cereal it read the internet for half an hour instead of doing anything useful.
this one is kinda on you. you get to decide what to do with the extra time. I wake up a little later now to stay up talking and playing video games with my friends that live further west. not very productive, but I value having a slightly more relaxed work week.
> Plus the commute is not just dead time, at least for me I usually triage my inbox before I arrive at the office. Now I just waste time and have an extra bowl of cereal it read the internet for half an hour instead of doing anything useful.
this one is kinda on you. you get to decide what to do with the extra time. I wake up a little later now to stay up talking and playing video games with my friends that live further west. not very productive, but I value having a slightly more relaxed work week.
> I'm also cooking lunch at home instead of going out several times a week for mediocre takeout. saves me a good chunk of change and I'm eating healthier and tastier food.
I watched a McKinsey presentation last week which, among other things, went into what ways of doing things forced by the pandemic did they want to carry forwards and what they didn't want to carry forward.
A couple of things that people most plan to carry forward were increased home cooking and online grocery delivery.
I watched a McKinsey presentation last week which, among other things, went into what ways of doing things forced by the pandemic did they want to carry forwards and what they didn't want to carry forward.
A couple of things that people most plan to carry forward were increased home cooking and online grocery delivery.
You are free to spend that time however you like. I get to sleep for three hours longer. Needless to say i produce a lot more code these days.
> The long term shakeout of this will be that everybody realizes that yes, we need offices.
You said this, and then wrote the rest of your post about the opposite? Why do you think we'll need offices?
You said this, and then wrote the rest of your post about the opposite? Why do you think we'll need offices?
Because I know we're not going to get SnackNation forever.
I think we'll find that not every company does need an office, or the expense of an office.
IMHO now is probably a good time to invest in meeting-place providers like Regus.
IMHO now is probably a good time to invest in meeting-place providers like Regus.
Needing offices doesn't mean needing them centralized neccessarily. It depends on domain as usual for how close it actually has to be. A doctor's office? Yeah. But if you have accounting siloed off anyway why not just go full remote? They aren't needed there.
Sounds like you’re arguing for WeWork not offices as usual.
We don’t need corporate offices full of cubes and butts and chairs.
We need co-working spaces sometimes.
Personally, my employer of 92 is doing fine remote. So, you know, anecdata and all that
There’s that personality though that needs a group to help them decide on the color of a button, and how thick a drop shadow should be.
Let’s hope those folks are able to power through making such difficult decisions alone, without free lattes followed by yoga class to ease the chemically induced anxiety, and over thought fear of making the wrong palette choice.
My goodness, tech millennials might have to move on from college life! For shame.
We don’t need corporate offices full of cubes and butts and chairs.
We need co-working spaces sometimes.
Personally, my employer of 92 is doing fine remote. So, you know, anecdata and all that
There’s that personality though that needs a group to help them decide on the color of a button, and how thick a drop shadow should be.
Let’s hope those folks are able to power through making such difficult decisions alone, without free lattes followed by yoga class to ease the chemically induced anxiety, and over thought fear of making the wrong palette choice.
My goodness, tech millennials might have to move on from college life! For shame.
No. I'm saying many (most) firms will still require offices. The shape of the office will change as firms realize which business functions work best in the office and which are best remote. This will take many years to shake out because not every firm will correctly identify these functions.
Yes back to individual offices
We need spaces built for working. Contemporary open offices are built for talking.
If anything, I'd expect offices more built around sometimes meeting and collaborating--not butts in seats all day. I can imagine hot-desking plus a lot of enclaves and meeting rooms.
Hot desking is a damn plague on offices, and the reason WFH has been so nice. No hot-desking. My space is my own and I can make it the way I want, leave what I want around and not worry about theft etc.
If, as some are suggesting, a lot of people end up coming into the office one or two days a week, how could hot desking not be widely adopted?
I am not sure I think covid will for force a rethink of the cramped open plan hot desking trend of the last - so you might have less desks in the same footage
Yeah I’d like to go back but 2 days a week. Any more and it’s over kill really. 3 other days can be used for deep work at home. I’m tech guy working in marketing...these type of people love to appear at your desk every so often in the office. Now with Slack I can just not sign in or set my status as away and reply when I want. It’s asynchronous communication and really good for “me”.
And truth is. Everyone is different. I can respect the person that prefers office environment. What we will see is greater flexibility and just less office space in the future.
The real winner outs of all this will be local communities and businesses.
And truth is. Everyone is different. I can respect the person that prefers office environment. What we will see is greater flexibility and just less office space in the future.
The real winner outs of all this will be local communities and businesses.
please no. That's the worst trade off: I still need to pay extra rent to manage my home office and live in commute distance of my HCOL office.
I don't care about "us" going back to the office but I definitely want to go back to the office and I am far from alone in this.
I feel more distracted at home and miss the social interactions with coworkers. Video conferences are tiresome.
I miss the ad-hoc conversations with coworkers that lead to cool product innovation. I also miss being able to mentor junior engineers in person, and receiving in-person mentorship from my seniors.
I personally believe that we're all running on the trajectory and direction we scoped before the shut-down, and as we move into H1 planning next year, things are going to get much slower and more complicated.
I personally believe that we're all running on the trajectory and direction we scoped before the shut-down, and as we move into H1 planning next year, things are going to get much slower and more complicated.
But do you really need that from a company? I get that from coworking spaces. And if anything I'd argue it's more innovative.
Instead of a bunch of programmers spouting group think, I get to interact with writers, artists, indie game devs, etc. Way more innovative than any programmer group I've been in.
Instead of a bunch of programmers spouting group think, I get to interact with writers, artists, indie game devs, etc. Way more innovative than any programmer group I've been in.
I couldn't really talk to random people at a coworking space unless they signed NDAs, which would be hard to enforce. Lots of IP and other secrets. Do people really discuss their work with strangers at coworking spaces? I've never worked in one so thats interesting/surprising. Maybe some more generic programming challenges could be discussed vs product/research specifics.
Well these folks will probably not have much context on what you are doing though. Offices are nice because people working in them have some shared reality, vision and goals. I know that the service or tool I build or use is built or used by another team for a specific purpose. A lot of the innovations I’ve seen happening are because humans with this shared reality try to solve one others problems, or at least talk about it. Many times, others will also actually help out if someone is stuck on something.
We need something to simulate this kind of shared reality somehow. Video conferences don’t do that. I’m sure there will be some innovation that might, I’m betting on cheap, high quality AR headsets. Right now it feels like in 2007... internet on cellphones was a thing but an iPhone with touchscreens had to be invented for something revolutionary to happen...
We need something to simulate this kind of shared reality somehow. Video conferences don’t do that. I’m sure there will be some innovation that might, I’m betting on cheap, high quality AR headsets. Right now it feels like in 2007... internet on cellphones was a thing but an iPhone with touchscreens had to be invented for something revolutionary to happen...
I prefer that when I'm working on my own projects, but at BigCo, I can't really do that :)
I'm the opposite. Without having to hear the two women sitting two rows back talking loudly about whatever the hell it is, or be interrupted 8 times a day by people in unrelated areas asking inane questions that are already documented on confluence...
Working from home has been amazing for my concentration levels.
Working from home has been amazing for my concentration levels.
Yes, one day someone is going to do a “this is your brain on Zoom” study and it will finally explain what many of us have been feeling.
Especially if you have a regular culprit who has crappy audio and keeps harshing the mic that gets tiring very quickly.
I'm with you on that one. I actually want to go back to the office.
I don't have a dedicated workspace at home, and I'm definitely feeling it. The line between working from home, and living at work, is getting very blurry. Our living room has become an office, our kitchen has become the other office. The bedroom is now the only space sacrosanct.
It's not so much that I miss the office, but I certainly miss "going to work" and "leaving work". That's very difficult to replicate in the space I have - here I am on a lazy saturday afternoon, and "work" is the sleeping thinkpad just to the left of me.
Obviously if this persists, I'm going to need to look into a larger living space. Either going from a 1 bedroom to 3, or somewhere large enough to have a separate dining room we can repurpose (and "young-couple flat with an actual dining room instead of a table floating in the middle of an open-plan room" seems to be quite rare.)
So whenever I hear talk of how much our employers could save by not needing anywhere near as much property - in the back of my head I'm starting to realise it's just shifting that property cost from them to me.
I don't have a dedicated workspace at home, and I'm definitely feeling it. The line between working from home, and living at work, is getting very blurry. Our living room has become an office, our kitchen has become the other office. The bedroom is now the only space sacrosanct.
It's not so much that I miss the office, but I certainly miss "going to work" and "leaving work". That's very difficult to replicate in the space I have - here I am on a lazy saturday afternoon, and "work" is the sleeping thinkpad just to the left of me.
Obviously if this persists, I'm going to need to look into a larger living space. Either going from a 1 bedroom to 3, or somewhere large enough to have a separate dining room we can repurpose (and "young-couple flat with an actual dining room instead of a table floating in the middle of an open-plan room" seems to be quite rare.)
So whenever I hear talk of how much our employers could save by not needing anywhere near as much property - in the back of my head I'm starting to realise it's just shifting that property cost from them to me.
This is the big thing for me. I already pay more than is reasonable for a 550 sq.ft. apartment which obviously doesn't have a separate office. To get a 2 bedroom place I would have to double my rent to get a place that is even close to where my current apartment is.
Yup. My 10,000 company in the Bay Area did an employee poll and it was overwhelming “I’d like the opportunity to work from the office again”.
Keep in mind it wasn’t “I want to be there 8 hours a day, Monday through Friday”. But they definitely wanted the option to work from an office for part of the work week, at a minimum.
This doesn’t surprise me in the least.
Keep in mind it wasn’t “I want to be there 8 hours a day, Monday through Friday”. But they definitely wanted the option to work from an office for part of the work week, at a minimum.
This doesn’t surprise me in the least.
> I’d like the opportunity to work from the office again
Is that a useful answer? Of course people would like that opportunity, even if they never used it - it's pure bonus.
More useful question would be "how many times a week (or how many hours) do you plan to work from the office given the opportunity to work from both home and the office?"
Is that a useful answer? Of course people would like that opportunity, even if they never used it - it's pure bonus.
More useful question would be "how many times a week (or how many hours) do you plan to work from the office given the opportunity to work from both home and the office?"
It is useful because the company was trying to gauge how many wanted to work from home permanently and wouldn’t care if they never had an office to go to.
I’m not sure it’s that useful though. Someone who wishes it was like it was on 2019 would answer affirmatively to “would you like the opportunity to work from the office again?”
I like working from home right now, but I’d sure love the world to be working such that we could reasonably go back to the office.
I like working from home right now, but I’d sure love the world to be working such that we could reasonably go back to the office.
Pre pandemic we had a 15 person space that was available for our 30 employees, many of whom travelled We had about 10% usage.
Can you discuss why you want to go back to the office?
I’m not the parent poster, but I agree with their preference. It’s psychological. I focus better with a clear delineation of work in a work setting and personal life in a home setting. Even the physical transition of the commute helps me switch over. This is something that has eroded in the last six months even though I’ve tried to substitute it with practices like an “office” room.
Additionally, I am definitely a person who prefers in person meetings and conversations. It’s not that I can’t do remote conversations - I’ve even managed remote employees for years - but I value water cooler conversations as a place for spontaneous idea generation or just relationship building, which is just harder remotely. You have to go out of your way to send ideas into the ether, without the physical signs that someone might be receptive to random, possibly stupid musings, or non-sequiter stuff about personal life.
Count me among the people who are fine with others choosing to stay remote, but once it’s feasible and safe to go into the office I would want to do it.
Additionally, I am definitely a person who prefers in person meetings and conversations. It’s not that I can’t do remote conversations - I’ve even managed remote employees for years - but I value water cooler conversations as a place for spontaneous idea generation or just relationship building, which is just harder remotely. You have to go out of your way to send ideas into the ether, without the physical signs that someone might be receptive to random, possibly stupid musings, or non-sequiter stuff about personal life.
Count me among the people who are fine with others choosing to stay remote, but once it’s feasible and safe to go into the office I would want to do it.
I get the want for distinct physical spaces to change contexts, though considering we're 20+ years into a world of employer issued laptop and mobile phones, making the delineation between work and non-work is very much up to each of us as individuals. This is as a small as not checking work email outside of work hours and as large as finding a space that you yourself work best in even if that means not home or your employer's office.
The issue is while you're on the clock; I don't take those longer breaks to get a coffee, it's right behind me. I take shorter lunches, it's right there behind me. (etc.) People who are not tenured remote employees are still struggling to find a healthy life balance as they've spent 20 years working in an office.
My company (~10k, global, mix of hourly and salaried) has multiple times sent out pandemic guidance asking people to take more time off and stop working so much, they see the extra hours in their time tracking tooling upstream (and it's not a financial play, they're targeting the salaried).
My company (~10k, global, mix of hourly and salaried) has multiple times sent out pandemic guidance asking people to take more time off and stop working so much, they see the extra hours in their time tracking tooling upstream (and it's not a financial play, they're targeting the salaried).
The office I work in is open plan, which I would imagine is the case for the significant proportion of individual that do their work in an office. There are constant interuptions and it's way too loud. In order to focus, I have to shut off the background noise with headphones, and even they don't deter most people from interupting my flow. As my customer base is wide spread, I'm in vidoe calls anyway. This means that it really doesn't matter where I work. I do miss some of my collegues, I do miss some of the interactions and technical discussions that go on, as much as a little bit of the banter. Slack/Teams can be very impersonal and nuance is totally lost with text based media. With that said, I'm definately more productive at home. I can definately get more done and I definately do not miss the commute. I see much more of my kids and my wife, which to me at least, is the most important thing. Work-life harmony seems to me to be easier to atain if the choice of working from home is available.
Not OP but I will throw in my 2 cents...
1. Work/life separation. Even with a separate computer, getting it shut away and Slack gone is easier said than done. Now everyone knows you're probably around somewhere and will read their e-mail or see their Slack message, even early in the morning or later in the afternoon.
1b. I work better in a dedicated environment. My home office has all kinda of other distractions. Homework from my OMSCS classes beckons to be done, personal projects, not to mention kids. The psychological difference of being in a dedicated workspace is significant.
2. Social connections. There are many people I was friendly with but only at the office. Now I only interact with people on my own team or in closely related teams when we are working on some project that overlaps. My 'work world' has shrunk dramatically.
3. Zoom. Just make it stop. My company has dedicated Thursday to be 'no meeting day' but it hasn't really stuck yet. I'm brought onto way more calls now than I ever was when we were in the office. It feels like Zoom has become the substitute for the random communications we used to have, except instead of taking 5-10 minutes everyone schedules 30-60 minutes at a time. And they always find a way to use up every minute plus 2 or 3 after the end time.
I don't actually want to go back full time. I am thinking seriously of selling my Model 3 because having a 60K depreciating asset in the garage that only gets driven a couple hundred miles a month is not the best use of my money. But when the office opens back up eventually, I do think I'll try to spend at least one day a week there. Maybe two.
1. Work/life separation. Even with a separate computer, getting it shut away and Slack gone is easier said than done. Now everyone knows you're probably around somewhere and will read their e-mail or see their Slack message, even early in the morning or later in the afternoon.
1b. I work better in a dedicated environment. My home office has all kinda of other distractions. Homework from my OMSCS classes beckons to be done, personal projects, not to mention kids. The psychological difference of being in a dedicated workspace is significant.
2. Social connections. There are many people I was friendly with but only at the office. Now I only interact with people on my own team or in closely related teams when we are working on some project that overlaps. My 'work world' has shrunk dramatically.
3. Zoom. Just make it stop. My company has dedicated Thursday to be 'no meeting day' but it hasn't really stuck yet. I'm brought onto way more calls now than I ever was when we were in the office. It feels like Zoom has become the substitute for the random communications we used to have, except instead of taking 5-10 minutes everyone schedules 30-60 minutes at a time. And they always find a way to use up every minute plus 2 or 3 after the end time.
I don't actually want to go back full time. I am thinking seriously of selling my Model 3 because having a 60K depreciating asset in the garage that only gets driven a couple hundred miles a month is not the best use of my money. But when the office opens back up eventually, I do think I'll try to spend at least one day a week there. Maybe two.
> Social connections. There are many people I was friendly with but only at the office. Now I only interact with people on my own team or in closely related teams when we are working on some project that overlaps. My 'work world' has shrunk dramatically.
I echo this sentiment. As a junior engineer in a large office, being able to keep track of other projects, who is working on what, what's coming up in a different business area, etc., has been very important for career development. Working from home, I've been "siloed" into my own team to a much larger extent.
I echo this sentiment. As a junior engineer in a large office, being able to keep track of other projects, who is working on what, what's coming up in a different business area, etc., has been very important for career development. Working from home, I've been "siloed" into my own team to a much larger extent.
Just book meetings with others in the company. I think school has trained us for structure and rarely are we willing to initiate without formal processes in place.
Send a meeting invite for 30 minutes to someone in the org with: "Hi. I'm new and I try to meet one new person every week in areas I'm not familiar."
Pro tip: Either pick someone who seems to have a cult following, looks to be untouchable in the org and or very active on internal company GitHub/Gitlab.
Send a meeting invite for 30 minutes to someone in the org with: "Hi. I'm new and I try to meet one new person every week in areas I'm not familiar."
Pro tip: Either pick someone who seems to have a cult following, looks to be untouchable in the org and or very active on internal company GitHub/Gitlab.
My company started up an internal newsletter describing what is going on as well as a quarterly meeting about what has happened and what will happen. I honestly feel like I know more about what is going on before even if I don't speak to other teams at all outside of this.
re: 3, it is completely acceptable to require a plan before joining a zoom meeting. If you put something on my calendar without telling me, it gets declined.
I've been told "You have no instinct of self preservation at this job" but being stuck in meetings and not being able to get things done is not what I was hired to do. Tuesdays and Mondays I concede to meeting hell because those are regular team meetings but your little attempt at showing the marketing department is still doing work by scheduling meetings is not that fun :(
I've been told "You have no instinct of self preservation at this job" but being stuck in meetings and not being able to get things done is not what I was hired to do. Tuesdays and Mondays I concede to meeting hell because those are regular team meetings but your little attempt at showing the marketing department is still doing work by scheduling meetings is not that fun :(
> Even with a separate computer, getting it shut away and Slack gone is easier said than done. Now everyone knows you're probably around somewhere and will read their e-mail or see their Slack message, even early in the morning or later in the afternoon.
But... why? Just don't look at work messages outside of work hours. Is that so hard?
But... why? Just don't look at work messages outside of work hours. Is that so hard?
Exactly. This line has always puzzled me. My work laptop is the only one with IM/Email on it. When I close the lid at the end of the day people can email me all they want, I won't see it.
Number one reason for me is the separation of work and private life. It's so much easier to keep work from creeping into my private life when it happens in a totally different place.
I also miss the social interactions, discussion with colleagues is much easier in person. Lastly, I hope it will reduce the amount of video conferences that crept up considerably.
edit: Not OP obviously.
edit2: Note: Just to make sure, I know this is personal preference and I am perfectly happy with other people being super happy and productive at home!
I also miss the social interactions, discussion with colleagues is much easier in person. Lastly, I hope it will reduce the amount of video conferences that crept up considerably.
edit: Not OP obviously.
edit2: Note: Just to make sure, I know this is personal preference and I am perfectly happy with other people being super happy and productive at home!
At 5.30 I reboot my workstation from linux into windows. Separation complete :)
I am glad this works for you! Maybe it's because I can't switch my mind so easily, I prefer a physical distance (I don't think a separate room would be enough for me either).
What worked for me best during lockdown was strong ritualized schedule (which is completely at odds with my normal personality).
What used to be going to work in the morning became exercise. Then, when it was end of day, we went outside. I have kids which made it making more sense. But you can go outside for walk or read book outside etc. The point is that you leave room and do something that causes mental switch.
What used to be going to work in the morning became exercise. Then, when it was end of day, we went outside. I have kids which made it making more sense. But you can go outside for walk or read book outside etc. The point is that you leave room and do something that causes mental switch.
To be fair I've been working 60% remote for a few years now, so moving to 100% wasn't a huge strain for me. It's actually something I've wanted for a while.
I've had time to get my head around the separation you talk about, I guess. Also helps that I'm on a small team and we all slack something like "Signing off now, catch you tomorrow" at around 5.30. Puts an end on the day.
I've had time to get my head around the separation you talk about, I guess. Also helps that I'm on a small team and we all slack something like "Signing off now, catch you tomorrow" at around 5.30. Puts an end on the day.
If you don't have a separate room, it's hard to see how much difference it can make. I've worked from home since 2008 with a one-year break immediately before COVID-19, and I'm glad to be back, but the separate room was essential for me.
That's a great reason. You like to set boundaries between work and private life.
But I'm not convinced a corporate office is the only, let alone, best option. Have you considered alternatives?
But I'm not convinced a corporate office is the only, let alone, best option. Have you considered alternatives?
No I haven't considered alternatives between a corporate office and a home office. Could you list some? I am fairy uncreative about these things, unfortunately :/
Coworking space or a small private office that's separate from your house/aparment.
Thank you for the ideas, I'll have something to think about now
I've worked at home for 20 years, more or less, and I have a separate space (garden office), $300 conference camera and mic, huge screen, and the best internet connection possible. When this is your life you arrange things differently, and I've no doubt that others who make the change to working from home will make similar adjustments over time.
> $300 conference camera and mic, huge screen
Can you recommend your camera, mic and screen setup? And what brand/model they are? TY!
Can you recommend your camera, mic and screen setup? And what brand/model they are? TY!
Logitech BCC950: https://www.logitech.com/en-roeu/product/conferencecam-bcc95...
If I had the extra space and time to set it all up I would probably use a regular SLR camera on a tripod, and lavalier mic. But the Logitech is a lot more convenient - connects over a single USB through the docking station and just works with zero set up.
The screen is just a regular LG 4K 55" TV mounted on the wall which connects to the laptop docking station, allowing video conferences, slides, etc. to be "thrown" over there when it's convenient.
If I had the extra space and time to set it all up I would probably use a regular SLR camera on a tripod, and lavalier mic. But the Logitech is a lot more convenient - connects over a single USB through the docking station and just works with zero set up.
The screen is just a regular LG 4K 55" TV mounted on the wall which connects to the laptop docking station, allowing video conferences, slides, etc. to be "thrown" over there when it's convenient.
Not the parent, but I use a Logitech 920s webcam. I could use one of my high-end cameras--I even have an older model Fujifilm I don't use any longer--with an HDMI to USB converter but I decided it wasn't worth the trouble and it's harder to make work in physical space anyway.
I use a Blue Snowball mic but any decent USB mic will work. I have a dedicated office and I haven't found using a headset makes it better though YMMV. I'd just as soon not wear a headset unless necessary.
Computer is just a 27" iMac with a 2nd monitor. (Though I actually usually work with video on my main screen and do any work with shared docs etc. on a MacBook.)
Also have an Elgato keylight to get the lighting a bit more even.
ADDED: Probably at least as important is that you're not backlit by a window and you have the camera at maybe a bit above eye level. I've also done a bit of "set decorating" of my background.
I use a Blue Snowball mic but any decent USB mic will work. I have a dedicated office and I haven't found using a headset makes it better though YMMV. I'd just as soon not wear a headset unless necessary.
Computer is just a 27" iMac with a 2nd monitor. (Though I actually usually work with video on my main screen and do any work with shared docs etc. on a MacBook.)
Also have an Elgato keylight to get the lighting a bit more even.
ADDED: Probably at least as important is that you're not backlit by a window and you have the camera at maybe a bit above eye level. I've also done a bit of "set decorating" of my background.
I could work with it if I was forced to do it, which I was for a few months. If I had to do it for an even longer period, a separate room would probably be necessary. But having a "black space" room is not exactly something I want in my private space either. (Not to think about my work most likely not willing to pay rent for that room :D )
I know this is a personal preference, but for me, physical distance makes my work more productive and my private time more relaxing.
I know this is a personal preference, but for me, physical distance makes my work more productive and my private time more relaxing.
Not the OP, but in my case it's just down to socialising with the friends I work with, and pair programming.
The latter can be done remotely but definitely isn't anywhere near as smooth or natural I find.
The latter can be done remotely but definitely isn't anywhere near as smooth or natural I find.
Agree on the latter, but VSCode Live Share has made it passable!
Not the OP. In my case:
- I get far too distracted by my apartment. The things I hung up on my wall to give myself a sense of personality are the things that I will be distracted by if I have my work laptop open.
- I want a clear separation between being at work and being at home. Otherwise I will make excuses that because I happen to be at home I can do X or Y without consequence. At home I have my personal computer and television within walking distance at all times. By being in the office I deliberately prevent myself from having those options.
- My job requires me to use a specific model of laptop for remote work. The laptop itself is not an ideal environment for getting things done. It is a Lenovo-era ThinkPad with the chiclet keys and they are awful to type on. I have other hardware in my room to plug in, but on top of that I have to RDP to my machine in order to access corpnet things, and the latency is plainly awful. It takes several minutes to just launch it and render the entire desktop completely, control key combinations will frequently not register because of the latency, I'm unable to use my laptop's microphone half the time over RDP, and there are frequent disconnections. And if I'm working at home, all of these annoyances will just pile on top of each other and make me lose motivation to do work entirely.
- On top of that my access credentials expired while I was taking shelter early on, so to use my work laptop from home at that point I had no choice but to go to the office to get them unblocked. I went in and immediately wondered why I hadn't been working from there in months. It was night and day.
I got certified to go into the office as "essential staff," because for me being in the office is what determines if I am productive at all or not. In fact the amount of work that ended up piling up because I was unable to work effectively anymore caused an anxiety episode that I had to take off a few months for. It truly felt like I had been pushed into a corner. Thankfully my team was understanding, it being a devastating pandemic and all.
- I get far too distracted by my apartment. The things I hung up on my wall to give myself a sense of personality are the things that I will be distracted by if I have my work laptop open.
- I want a clear separation between being at work and being at home. Otherwise I will make excuses that because I happen to be at home I can do X or Y without consequence. At home I have my personal computer and television within walking distance at all times. By being in the office I deliberately prevent myself from having those options.
- My job requires me to use a specific model of laptop for remote work. The laptop itself is not an ideal environment for getting things done. It is a Lenovo-era ThinkPad with the chiclet keys and they are awful to type on. I have other hardware in my room to plug in, but on top of that I have to RDP to my machine in order to access corpnet things, and the latency is plainly awful. It takes several minutes to just launch it and render the entire desktop completely, control key combinations will frequently not register because of the latency, I'm unable to use my laptop's microphone half the time over RDP, and there are frequent disconnections. And if I'm working at home, all of these annoyances will just pile on top of each other and make me lose motivation to do work entirely.
- On top of that my access credentials expired while I was taking shelter early on, so to use my work laptop from home at that point I had no choice but to go to the office to get them unblocked. I went in and immediately wondered why I hadn't been working from there in months. It was night and day.
I got certified to go into the office as "essential staff," because for me being in the office is what determines if I am productive at all or not. In fact the amount of work that ended up piling up because I was unable to work effectively anymore caused an anxiety episode that I had to take off a few months for. It truly felt like I had been pushed into a corner. Thankfully my team was understanding, it being a devastating pandemic and all.
Half of your problem sounds like infrastructure issues and possibly not having a good workspace setup. I am super lucky and have fiber internet at home and we have an awesome VPN at work, so I can get <10ms ping to almost everything lol. I keep my work computer plugged into a desktop setup (mouse/keyboard/monitors) so I don't have to deal with that.
Not OP, but many reasons. I miss socializing with colleagues, I also like sitting in a room surrounded by other people also working and finally my office has better ergonomics.
I have many of the same reasons as others have outlined already and also have some specialized equipment at the office that is a hassle to work with remotely.
It seems lately that most accounts arguing in favor of going back into office immediately are throwaways.
I wonder why that is 🧐
I wonder why that is 🧐
The site guidelines ask you not to post insinuations like this. Would you mind reviewing them? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
(Please stick to text here too.)
(Please stick to text here too.)
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Probably because lurkers have a topic they're finally passionate about. Also, doesn't this site have a rule about assuming the best intentions from posters?
Four year old account, 3k karma, despite the name.
I'll toss my account into one of those being in favor if offices. Feel free to check the account creation an karma.
Different people have different preferences.
Different people have different preferences.
Totally off topic, but I've never seen an emoji on HN before - maybe the restrictions on Unicode characters have been lifted?
Edit: weirdly it seems to just be that specific emoji, others don't work
Edit: weirdly it seems to just be that specific emoji, others don't work
Yeah, this seems strange. I’ve seen the black heart symbol before (not an actual emoji), but never a real emoji. Does it work for me too? 🧐
What are you viewing it on?
I submitted my comment using Hack (iOS) but the emoji is coming though for me as the black box as well.
I submitted my comment using Hack (iOS) but the emoji is coming though for me as the black box as well.
Just in Safari, same on iOS & macOS.
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I'm probably going to get a lot of flack for this comment, but it's my honest opinion. People want you in the office so they can babysit you. They don't care about performance; they care about politics. I know, I know, your company is different. You all are equal and it's about saving the world, man. But here's the honest to god truth; Karin the office manager wants to save her job and has zero leg to stand on sending out emails about the kitchen fridge being dirty if you all are from home. Accountants and paper pushers can't push more paper when they have no artificial hierarchy when you all are at home. The engineer team manager is having a hard time managing you all in your home offices. It's all about politics. I think I remember reading in Yuval's book "Sapians" that humans can only organize around 100 people until they have to have some kind of shared myth. That shared myth can be religion, etc. etc. OR it can be in the form of being a "Googleon" or "IBM'er."
> People want you in the office so they can babysit you.
Only if you're doing a commoditized, conveyor-belt kind of work.
Some of us want you in the office so that we can mentor and train you. Teaching doesn't work too well remotely.
Only if you're doing a commoditized, conveyor-belt kind of work.
Some of us want you in the office so that we can mentor and train you. Teaching doesn't work too well remotely.
This is at good places. Kudos if your company is one of them, and you help out younger folks!
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Amazonian if you work for Amazon.
Why do people continue to push this myth?
“ Kirsty Allsopp led the anti-remote work charge on Twitter, suggesting that if your job can be done from home, it can be done from anywhere in the world. Who would have thought that a couple of months of working in shorts and a T-Shirt has made us more susceptible to being replaced by less expensive folk in India, Myanmar and China?”
It doesn’t matter if they are American or live halfway across the world. If you want amazing talent, you are going to have to pay them well. Talented people are usually well aware of the salary differences between American vs local companies of their region.
The people that tend to take the low offer are usually not in the best position to do the best work compared to their counterpart.
I have met and worked with amazing talent from all across the world. At the same time I have also worked with people that should have never been in the business and were the root cause of project delays caused by buggy features and constant rework. Whether they are American or not, the people in the latter group tended to be in a group that was not happy largely due to their pay. In the cases I probed for more information, I discovered amongst the contracting companies that placed bids, the company took the lowest bid that was offered. No fucking surprise that 8-12 months later that the project is behind by at least half a year.
Moral of the story companies need to pay well - regardless of the location of the person - in order to get a quality product that is pushed to the masses in time and remain competitive.
“ Kirsty Allsopp led the anti-remote work charge on Twitter, suggesting that if your job can be done from home, it can be done from anywhere in the world. Who would have thought that a couple of months of working in shorts and a T-Shirt has made us more susceptible to being replaced by less expensive folk in India, Myanmar and China?”
It doesn’t matter if they are American or live halfway across the world. If you want amazing talent, you are going to have to pay them well. Talented people are usually well aware of the salary differences between American vs local companies of their region.
The people that tend to take the low offer are usually not in the best position to do the best work compared to their counterpart.
I have met and worked with amazing talent from all across the world. At the same time I have also worked with people that should have never been in the business and were the root cause of project delays caused by buggy features and constant rework. Whether they are American or not, the people in the latter group tended to be in a group that was not happy largely due to their pay. In the cases I probed for more information, I discovered amongst the contracting companies that placed bids, the company took the lowest bid that was offered. No fucking surprise that 8-12 months later that the project is behind by at least half a year.
Moral of the story companies need to pay well - regardless of the location of the person - in order to get a quality product that is pushed to the masses in time and remain competitive.
Maybe management keeps saying this to scare the operations people into working harder. Lots of arsehole managers think this is the way to hold onto staff and make them work harder. Of course it really doesn't work that way, but maybe some managers benefit from this shitty tactic in orthogonal ways.
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1. I do wonder why in the US we permit discrimination based on place of residence and place of birth. You can legally discriminate based on accent or other indicators of your place of birth or development, but not legally discriminate for race, gender, sexual orientation. And similarly we are also permitting employers to discriminate based on where you choose, or life exigencies compel you, to live, modulo objective work-related collocation requirements. Maybe a pivot by SJWs is in order.
2. The very largest US companies learned long ago about the importance of a significant geographic economic presence all over this great country aka USA. Alternatively 90+ Members of Congress explained the virtue via anti-trust actions and other targeted legislation. With telework, FANG and the like get the political benefit of constituencies across Congressional districts and States without the overhead of managing a lot of real estate for offices.
3. There are a lot of edge cases being thrown around in this thread. It’s good to hear those voices, but it can make it hard to gain a sense of how many people actually now experience telework as a good thing or a bad thing, especially if/when some fraction of infrastructure cost savings are directly shared with the employees.
4. To the question of the original post, businesses dependent on commuters (including those who own real estate in the commercial area) call up the Mayor, and the Mayor calls CEOs and begs/threatens/pleads/flatters/seduces/cajoles and it is easier to send the droids back to the grind than to hear the Mayor’s minions whine and complain, unless the droids push back hard. [Purely personal guess]
2. The very largest US companies learned long ago about the importance of a significant geographic economic presence all over this great country aka USA. Alternatively 90+ Members of Congress explained the virtue via anti-trust actions and other targeted legislation. With telework, FANG and the like get the political benefit of constituencies across Congressional districts and States without the overhead of managing a lot of real estate for offices.
3. There are a lot of edge cases being thrown around in this thread. It’s good to hear those voices, but it can make it hard to gain a sense of how many people actually now experience telework as a good thing or a bad thing, especially if/when some fraction of infrastructure cost savings are directly shared with the employees.
4. To the question of the original post, businesses dependent on commuters (including those who own real estate in the commercial area) call up the Mayor, and the Mayor calls CEOs and begs/threatens/pleads/flatters/seduces/cajoles and it is easier to send the droids back to the grind than to hear the Mayor’s minions whine and complain, unless the droids push back hard. [Purely personal guess]
> And similarly we are also permitting employers to discriminate based on where you choose, or life exigencies compel you, to live
Presumably this works both ways. Google does not pay 500K/year to developers in the Portland office. Why should SF developers get paid more? Nobody cared until engineers out of SF wanted to take advantage of remote work but keep the big paycheck.
Presumably this works both ways. Google does not pay 500K/year to developers in the Portland office. Why should SF developers get paid more? Nobody cared until engineers out of SF wanted to take advantage of remote work but keep the big paycheck.
I've worked from home for 17 years, but I love to go work other places like coffee shops, libraries, etc. I would LOVE to not be at home again.
I can technically go to these other places and work again, just like I used to, because the area I live in believes this is all a hoax, but I'm just not comfortable, and I don't want to wear a mask all day, and people just aren't the same right now - so I'm a little nervous about being around strangers all day and want to avoid uncomfortable or awkward situations.
I can technically go to these other places and work again, just like I used to, because the area I live in believes this is all a hoax, but I'm just not comfortable, and I don't want to wear a mask all day, and people just aren't the same right now - so I'm a little nervous about being around strangers all day and want to avoid uncomfortable or awkward situations.
Yeah, I worked from home for a few years as a a freelancer. That was a very different experience from wfh due to pandemic lockdown. Before I could still see people when I wanted or needed to, go to the cafe or the library, buy lunch at the deli, etc. I didn’t have an office but other kinds of normal interactions were still an option.
Go to meetups and talk shop with other locals in the industry...
Who's going to pay for me to upsize my apartment so I can make a home office? Working from the same desk I use for my personal computer / gaming is really taking a toll on the ol' mental health? Also who's going to pay for my extra electricity use, etc? I also used to get free food at the office, would I be getting a raise to cover that as well?
My commute was a pleasant 25m bike ride I could use to listen to podcasts (which is exercise I've now lost, so losing the commute didn't exactly give me a bunch of extra free time). Seeing coworkers in person was a really nice way to not only get some social contact every day but also build a rapport with my teammates. The office was also going to be a great place for my dog to get some socialization with other dogs.
Yes, I was annoyed at the moves to more open spaces and with regular frustrating interruptions, but with those mitigated, an office with my actual coworkers (with at most 1 day a week at home) is vastly superior to what I'm doing now, regardless of how much processes change. Not to mention, employers sort of implicitly assume that any time you gained back from not having to commute or whatever are just going to doing extra work.
My commute was a pleasant 25m bike ride I could use to listen to podcasts (which is exercise I've now lost, so losing the commute didn't exactly give me a bunch of extra free time). Seeing coworkers in person was a really nice way to not only get some social contact every day but also build a rapport with my teammates. The office was also going to be a great place for my dog to get some socialization with other dogs.
Yes, I was annoyed at the moves to more open spaces and with regular frustrating interruptions, but with those mitigated, an office with my actual coworkers (with at most 1 day a week at home) is vastly superior to what I'm doing now, regardless of how much processes change. Not to mention, employers sort of implicitly assume that any time you gained back from not having to commute or whatever are just going to doing extra work.
> My commute was a pleasant 25m bike ride I could use to listen to podcasts (which is exercise I've now lost, so losing the commute didn't exactly give me a bunch of extra free time).
You can still do that, though. Get up, do a 12.5m bike ride out, and 12.5m bike ride back home. Then start work.
Or do anything else. Maybe you'd prefer to go for a run some days? Great, you can do that. Maybe you want to lift weights? Great, you can do that. Maybe you stayed up late the night before doing something fun and want to sleep in a little? Great, you can do that. None of this other stuff would have been possible when you were fixed into the required, inflexible commute routine, but now you can do any of these things, or just keep doing your same commute routine, just with a different route that returns you home.
> Not to mention, employers sort of implicitly assume that any time you gained back from not having to commute or whatever are just going to doing extra work.
They only assume that if you allow them to by working longer hours. Set your boundaries, and assert them.
You can still do that, though. Get up, do a 12.5m bike ride out, and 12.5m bike ride back home. Then start work.
Or do anything else. Maybe you'd prefer to go for a run some days? Great, you can do that. Maybe you want to lift weights? Great, you can do that. Maybe you stayed up late the night before doing something fun and want to sleep in a little? Great, you can do that. None of this other stuff would have been possible when you were fixed into the required, inflexible commute routine, but now you can do any of these things, or just keep doing your same commute routine, just with a different route that returns you home.
> Not to mention, employers sort of implicitly assume that any time you gained back from not having to commute or whatever are just going to doing extra work.
They only assume that if you allow them to by working longer hours. Set your boundaries, and assert them.
If you still value spending 25 minutes on a bike ride, then you still have those 25 minutes to go on a bike ride.
Or, you have the choice to use that time in a way that you prefer.
Or, you have the choice to use that time in a way that you prefer.
> Who's going to pay for me to upsize my apartment so I can make a home office?
Your company. Offices are pretty expensive, if the company goes remote they have extra capital to distribute during yearly review or whatever policy your company has.
Your company. Offices are pretty expensive, if the company goes remote they have extra capital to distribute during yearly review or whatever policy your company has.
I have no interest in being in the office. The commute is horrid and a waste of time. The socialising is insignificant. The water cooler never has more than one visitor at a time, so the idea of it being an idea exchange is myth. Everyone communicates via chat in office, with headphones on. Being able to separate work and private life is a matter of self discipline, the other matters are not. The only thing I want is for coffee shops to return to normal.
If you primarily rely on socializing and interacting with other people AT WORK and around a water cooler of all things, you need some hobbies and activities.
People used to have an actual connection to the community they lived in but it seems like there’s now a massive collective laziness to seek it out.
People used to have an actual connection to the community they lived in but it seems like there’s now a massive collective laziness to seek it out.
Agreed. I think the people that are pointing out social aspects just haven't bothered to talk to people outside of their work. I lived in several different apartments in SF for many years, I didn't know a single neighbor, ever. Most people couldn't be bothered to say hello.
I think covid lock downs make it hard for people to realize there normally are other opportunities for socialization and community too.
> The commute is horrid and a waste of time.
Not only is it a waste of time, it in an unnecessary danger. Tens of thousands of people are killed in their commutes, and many more are injured in accidents to, from or during work.
Not only is it a waste of time, it in an unnecessary danger. Tens of thousands of people are killed in their commutes, and many more are injured in accidents to, from or during work.
I feel very much the same. I think most of the commenters here probably live in the smallest 1 bedroom house in SF with the best office possible at work. Sure, if you go from that to working on the coffee table its going to suck.
I have stopped talking to people outside of the development team but I don't really care. I never really knew these other people I was talking to. We just shared random stories about the weekend.
I have stopped talking to people outside of the development team but I don't really care. I never really knew these other people I was talking to. We just shared random stories about the weekend.
> “There’s sort of an emerging sense behind the scenes of executives saying, ‘This is not going to be sustainable,’” said Laszlo Bock, chief executive of human-resources startup Humu and the former HR chief at Google.
Maybe that because remote working is affecting their politicking ways more than it affects people who do the grunt work on the ground.
Maybe that because remote working is affecting their politicking ways more than it affects people who do the grunt work on the ground.
The least competent managers use lazy metrics like hours in the office for their employees. People who manage managers like this are really in a bad spot, because they have no idea if shit is hitting the fan down at the grunt level or not
I think ideally it should be up to the employee to return when they feel safe.
That being said, I look forward to going back to the office. It’ll be nice to see people again —- few people bother to turn on their video on zoom anymore for anything other than one-on-ones, myself included, and that is starting to feel alienating to me. I don’t think it’s wise having a policy that you must have video enabled, though, it’s nice being able to sprawl out on the couch and get comfortable for a particularly long, boring meeting.
Edit: to address the actual contents of the article, I think below is a better read that doesn’t reduce people’s concerns about remote working to wanting to save sandwhich shops:
https://marker.medium.com/remote-work-is-killing-the-hidden-...
That being said, I look forward to going back to the office. It’ll be nice to see people again —- few people bother to turn on their video on zoom anymore for anything other than one-on-ones, myself included, and that is starting to feel alienating to me. I don’t think it’s wise having a policy that you must have video enabled, though, it’s nice being able to sprawl out on the couch and get comfortable for a particularly long, boring meeting.
Edit: to address the actual contents of the article, I think below is a better read that doesn’t reduce people’s concerns about remote working to wanting to save sandwhich shops:
https://marker.medium.com/remote-work-is-killing-the-hidden-...
> I don’t think it’s wise having a policy that you must have video enabled
In my anecdotal experience it is good to strongly encourage video use. Well before the pandemic, I noticed that our colleagues in Hyderabad were far more involved and engaged when we made it nearly a requirement that everyone on the call turned on video. Especially once you've visited in person at least once so you have a little bit of a personal connection, video can help preserve some of that. Disembodied voices on zoom calls are the worst thing ever.
In my anecdotal experience it is good to strongly encourage video use. Well before the pandemic, I noticed that our colleagues in Hyderabad were far more involved and engaged when we made it nearly a requirement that everyone on the call turned on video. Especially once you've visited in person at least once so you have a little bit of a personal connection, video can help preserve some of that. Disembodied voices on zoom calls are the worst thing ever.
Interesting. For whatever reason my team keeps video on for all meeting unless there are bandwidth issues. But I agree now that it would be far worse if folks didn’t show their face regularly.
I don't have a webcam on my work setup, no one uses video, it hasn't bothered me at all.
Same here, I have my own desktop, camera is unplugged and I put it on only for skype with parents. Company didn't give us laptops, so has 0 lever to ask for anything. Most folks on our conf call system (webex) use audio only.
I made tons of other, more useful things (meals, real work, babysitting etc.) during those dull calls that are not really about me (or they cover me for 1 minute in 30-60 minutes). It would be really tiring to keep looking engaged while I couldn't care less about the topic (self pressure is a bitch), 3-6x per day.
I made tons of other, more useful things (meals, real work, babysitting etc.) during those dull calls that are not really about me (or they cover me for 1 minute in 30-60 minutes). It would be really tiring to keep looking engaged while I couldn't care less about the topic (self pressure is a bitch), 3-6x per day.
For me I always have my camera off. My PC desk is in my bedroom my bf usually has to walk behind me to get to the door. If I had a dedicated office room I'd leave the camera on.
> I think ideally it should be up to the employee to return when they feel safe.
agree, but not as an explicit company policy. what I mean is, if the company officially says something like "the office is open, but you don't have to come back until you feel safe", this can put pressure on employees to agree that they feel safe. if you're one of the last people to return, maybe you start feeling pressure to give some sort of concrete reason why. I think it would result in a lot of people returning when they don't actually feel safe.
imo there are three reasonable positions: a) office is closed, only essential staff allowed on premises; b) office is open, but physical attendance is strictly optional (without any caveats about "feeling safe"); or c) office is open and you have to come back.
edit to address the article you linked: I do feel for those people who do office support work and suddenly have no customers. but doesn't it suggest that a lot of that work wasn't really necessary in the first place? I just can't see how it can be a net harm for remote workers to cook themselves hot lunches every day (or just spend less for a similar cold cut sandwich).
agree, but not as an explicit company policy. what I mean is, if the company officially says something like "the office is open, but you don't have to come back until you feel safe", this can put pressure on employees to agree that they feel safe. if you're one of the last people to return, maybe you start feeling pressure to give some sort of concrete reason why. I think it would result in a lot of people returning when they don't actually feel safe.
imo there are three reasonable positions: a) office is closed, only essential staff allowed on premises; b) office is open, but physical attendance is strictly optional (without any caveats about "feeling safe"); or c) office is open and you have to come back.
edit to address the article you linked: I do feel for those people who do office support work and suddenly have no customers. but doesn't it suggest that a lot of that work wasn't really necessary in the first place? I just can't see how it can be a net harm for remote workers to cook themselves hot lunches every day (or just spend less for a similar cold cut sandwich).
> I just can't see how it can be a net harm for remote workers to cook themselves hot lunches every day
How is it not net harm to have to do a chore that you didn't have to do before?
How is it not net harm to have to do a chore that you didn't have to do before?
when I went to the office, my choices were leftovers/sandwich from home or takeout. I still have the option of takeout, but I choose it much less often now that I have the option to cook something.
Anyone that didn't have free, onsite lunch had the chore 'provide self with lunch'.
I'm pretty sure that free onsite lunch is rather exceptional. People that don't like to cook can still buy lunch or whatever.
I'm pretty sure that free onsite lunch is rather exceptional. People that don't like to cook can still buy lunch or whatever.
I usually have to commute for 3 hours a day. I have to be up early and get home late, stuck on a crowded train normally standing up for most of the journey.
I was never previously a big fan of working from home, I enjoy the social interaction at the office. Having coffee breaks with people, going out for lunch etc. But now I'm used to WFH I love the fact that I can wake up at 9AM and I'm 'at work'. I finish at 5:30PM and I'm already home. Yes I do miss the interaction with people, but I have met some people outside work, and regularly have Slack convos (or social ones while gaming for example) with those people.
I feel lucky that I've been at my company for a relatively long time, so have 'work friends' who I continue talking to. I now don't talk to the 'acquaintances' or new starters for example, which I guess is sad - but being selfish, makes it feel like I have even more time to do my own things. But on the other hand, probably isn't so good for the newer members of staff and doesn't help company morale.
I am still fairly young and have seen some people mention work/life balance. That doesn't bother me too much either as my company is flexible and I know if I do a few extra hours one evening I can do a few less hours another day etc. and wouldn't have to tell or ask anyone to do that.
Until reading this post I hadn't really thought about it too much, but guess I am just lucky that it works for me. If I was older and had kids/family, or didn't have an office to work from at home I can see how it would be more of a struggle. I do want to go back to work at some point, but I don't know how often I'd want to be there. I don't know if I can handle the long commutes week in week out now.
I was never previously a big fan of working from home, I enjoy the social interaction at the office. Having coffee breaks with people, going out for lunch etc. But now I'm used to WFH I love the fact that I can wake up at 9AM and I'm 'at work'. I finish at 5:30PM and I'm already home. Yes I do miss the interaction with people, but I have met some people outside work, and regularly have Slack convos (or social ones while gaming for example) with those people.
I feel lucky that I've been at my company for a relatively long time, so have 'work friends' who I continue talking to. I now don't talk to the 'acquaintances' or new starters for example, which I guess is sad - but being selfish, makes it feel like I have even more time to do my own things. But on the other hand, probably isn't so good for the newer members of staff and doesn't help company morale.
I am still fairly young and have seen some people mention work/life balance. That doesn't bother me too much either as my company is flexible and I know if I do a few extra hours one evening I can do a few less hours another day etc. and wouldn't have to tell or ask anyone to do that.
Until reading this post I hadn't really thought about it too much, but guess I am just lucky that it works for me. If I was older and had kids/family, or didn't have an office to work from at home I can see how it would be more of a struggle. I do want to go back to work at some point, but I don't know how often I'd want to be there. I don't know if I can handle the long commutes week in week out now.
I mean, if you simplify this to its most fundamental level, the article is about not wanting to work (not just the office part). Or it's about not wanting to do the unpleasant aspects of work. And citing some random studies to support his position.
But jobs / companies are mechanisms for getting people to do things they wouldn't feel like normally doing, because they get paid to do it. That's the definition of work!
Of course no one wants to go back to work when they've been allowed not to for a while.
The author lists all the things he hates about being in the office. Namely the things that are work. He wants some fairy tale home environment where no one bothers him, there are no deadlines, and he gets to work on only the things he wants. For high pay and 0 stress.
If anyone has been able to find that in life, god bless you and treasure what you have. If the author was not getting paid right now, you best believe he'd have a different attitude.
Eventually people will have to go back to work. This "work from home lala land" imaginary utopia is not going to be possible forever.
But jobs / companies are mechanisms for getting people to do things they wouldn't feel like normally doing, because they get paid to do it. That's the definition of work!
Of course no one wants to go back to work when they've been allowed not to for a while.
The author lists all the things he hates about being in the office. Namely the things that are work. He wants some fairy tale home environment where no one bothers him, there are no deadlines, and he gets to work on only the things he wants. For high pay and 0 stress.
If anyone has been able to find that in life, god bless you and treasure what you have. If the author was not getting paid right now, you best believe he'd have a different attitude.
Eventually people will have to go back to work. This "work from home lala land" imaginary utopia is not going to be possible forever.
Working from home has been great for me. I no longer have a 45 minute commute in both directions. I don’t have to pay for a train pass. I get to eat lunch with the only person with whom I want to eat lunch, my wife. I don’t have distracting conversations going on behind me. I can listen to relaxing music all day without having to wear headphones. I can now continue working on things during forced meetings because no one is able to see I don’t care about the conversation that before the pandemic clearly didn’t involve me but somehow required my presence. Overall, by working from my basement, I save time, money, and stress. I get more done now work-related than I did before the pandemic. I have time to take care of myself. I get to spend more time with my wife. The only thing that took a little getting used to was now I have to IM my boss to ask him to review something instead of turning to my right and saying out loud, “Can you please look at the deck and approve for release?” I don’t get instant feedback that my message was received, but, if I’m being honest, I really don’t care what happens after I have done my part.
The most fascinating thing about this crisis is how it has laid bare the importance of flexible, forward thinking leadership at every level, in every form of organization. Entities that have/will successfully adapt to the new reality we live in are the ones who have given up on the notion of a "return to normal". There will never be a "normal" again. The COVID-19 outbreak was an epochal event. Whether you embrace that and seize the new opportunities it has opened up, or determinedly force your outmoded mindset onto a world that no longer exists will determine who are the winners and losers out of all of this.
I’m all for choice. I would probably do part time in the office but I’ve been living my best life remotely working. My productivity is way up. No driving 2-3 hours a day. Helping my kids with school cooking. Been great.
Who is demanding this? My company is openly talking about “office optional” when normalcy returns with “office days” being the exception rather than the norm.
UK politicians and business landlords are banging the "back to the office, proles!" drum pretty hard right now. Thankfully people are mostly ignoring them.
If it was only the UK...
The people that I know who work managerial and director roles in healthcare and pharmaceuticals are discussing this, also. Apparently productivity is through the roof with work from home.
My company was a few months away from an office move when Covid hit. Most leadership was fiercely anti-wfh. Fast forward to today, and the new office buildout has been converted into a “hotel” model with no permanent desks and the expectation is when it’s safe, you will have option to do come in a few days a week.
If my work ever went to a "no permanent desks" rule, they'd never see me in the office again. Not knowing where I'll be sitting and what noise/neighbor issues I'll have to work around is like adding insult to the injury of having to commute and forego all the benefits I get spoiled by with wfh.
Mind sharing your company name ? , just curious
It's about control. Many managers like to micromanage everything and everybody very much, but that does not work very well remotely. They want to make sure, or at least to be able to make sure, that their workers, well, work. Many are afraid to loose that kind of control, because that's the only thing they can do best.
Yeah if anything this pandemic made that abundantly clear. Those in favor of control ran out of any scapegoats. The remote work debate was never about location.
Ironically, working remotely actually made many office workers more productive, but I cannot recall where I've read that. Maybe lack of management interruptions is not as bad as they say.
It's mentioned in the linked article!
Is this restricted to first line managers? Or do second line managers micromanager first, directors second, etc. Thankfully have managed to avoid this sort of manager so no first hand experience.
I think, the second level management is the unluckiest of them all. It's impossible to micromanage several lower level managers at the same time. Whoever tries, fails or burns out.
Second line and above already needed systems like JIRA to micromanage.
At my work, almost everybody got to work from home since the beginning of the pandemic. I was one of the few who had to stay behind, due to the nature of my job. Here's what I have observed:
- The office is much quieter, and it's easier to concentrate.++
- People working from home are harder to reach. I can wait 6 hours before I get an answer to a question I would otherwise get answered within 5 minutes.
- Those who stay behind become the Go-For guys for all other departments. Marketing needs something sent to a client by mail ASAP? Just ask the only guy left to gogetit! It's tiresome, especially if the other department is a mess.
-People are really bad at describing things. In casual chatting, the amount of non-language communication, like pointing things, is staggering.
- The more time people spend time away from work, the more they seem to get out of touch with the physical nature of what they do. For example, if you want something transported somewhere, you need to tell me from where, to where, when, how big it is and ideally a reference number or a contact. No, we can't modify the order if the truck left four hours ago...
- The office is much quieter, and it's easier to concentrate.++
- People working from home are harder to reach. I can wait 6 hours before I get an answer to a question I would otherwise get answered within 5 minutes.
- Those who stay behind become the Go-For guys for all other departments. Marketing needs something sent to a client by mail ASAP? Just ask the only guy left to gogetit! It's tiresome, especially if the other department is a mess.
-People are really bad at describing things. In casual chatting, the amount of non-language communication, like pointing things, is staggering.
- The more time people spend time away from work, the more they seem to get out of touch with the physical nature of what they do. For example, if you want something transported somewhere, you need to tell me from where, to where, when, how big it is and ideally a reference number or a contact. No, we can't modify the order if the truck left four hours ago...
Really, I just want the choice to work remotely. I prefer working remotely, but everyone has their own preference and it's been discussed ad nauseum.
But my concern is that I likely won't get this choice. I suspect that the layers of management above me will want employees in the office ASAP because that's how they wield the most influence and control. Plus, management makes more money, so they aren't as subject to the quality of life tradeoffs that come from being in the office. I feel like if only one of the people in my management chain want me back in the office, then I'll have to go back. It seems unlikely that all of them will be OK with remote work.
But my concern is that I likely won't get this choice. I suspect that the layers of management above me will want employees in the office ASAP because that's how they wield the most influence and control. Plus, management makes more money, so they aren't as subject to the quality of life tradeoffs that come from being in the office. I feel like if only one of the people in my management chain want me back in the office, then I'll have to go back. It seems unlikely that all of them will be OK with remote work.
Beside what others have mentioned.
CEOs do most of their time: meetings & talking to people. This is their job, they don't do Powerpoint, coding or anything else beside talking and meetings. Both is more draining if you do this 10h a day remotely. To my coachees there is a big push amongst CEOs to get people back in the office, they haven't defined their remote role yet.
CEOs do most of their time: meetings & talking to people. This is their job, they don't do Powerpoint, coding or anything else beside talking and meetings. Both is more draining if you do this 10h a day remotely. To my coachees there is a big push amongst CEOs to get people back in the office, they haven't defined their remote role yet.
I detect a hint of worry: if the company does just fine with minimal input from the CEO, how do they justify their outsized salary and benefits?
I would agree. I think the CEO role will change the most from the move to remote.
Outside of the pandemic, I think a company doing remote/WFH carries with it some implications people don’t seem to talk about - namely that your physical workspace and equipment used is capital, and the company is not compensating employees for the use of that capital. If a company does not need to maintain office space, that is a huge expense they don’t have to pay for - but an employee is paying for it.
Right now you can see this in the real estate markets - people are moving out of their smaller city apartments into bigger places, partially I’m sure, because maintaining an office at home requires extra space. But that cost is on the employee not the employer.
Right now you can see this in the real estate markets - people are moving out of their smaller city apartments into bigger places, partially I’m sure, because maintaining an office at home requires extra space. But that cost is on the employee not the employer.
IMO, this is one of the least concerning things with WFH.
It's just another trade off. That isn't hard for many people who prefer working from home.
It's just another trade off. That isn't hard for many people who prefer working from home.
I certainly agree with you when it comes to individuals who have chosen to be remote either temporarily or permanently. It goes under the radar. But if a significant portion of your workforce is working remotely, it looks different.
Remote work at tech companies isn't something completely new, it just wasn't the norm. The good companies compensate employees for internet and hardware.
I wonder if anyone has done a survey about the specifics of company support during WFH.
“Does your company allow you to expense a portion or all of your internet?” Type inquiries. I’m often uploading and downloading large assets to our and our client systems, would be happy to fill out an allowable expense report if the company would pick up even a third of my Internet bill (course I have a feeling such a thing will never happen)
Anyone know? Curious to read the results if such a thing exists.
“Does your company allow you to expense a portion or all of your internet?” Type inquiries. I’m often uploading and downloading large assets to our and our client systems, would be happy to fill out an allowable expense report if the company would pick up even a third of my Internet bill (course I have a feeling such a thing will never happen)
Anyone know? Curious to read the results if such a thing exists.
My company pays a good chunk for startup expenses for remotes but so far we haven’t convinced them to pick up the tab for internet.
What would the company say if you asked them to compensate you for the square footage of your apartment that you exclusively dedicate to work activities. ;-) In the same vein, the IRS lets independent contractors write off the square footage of their home that is dedicated to work.
My company is discussing some internet stipend. I'm all for it, it would be silly to say no to more money.
However, I would have internet whether I worked from home or not. I realize some people may need to upgrade their internet plans, but this probably doesn't apply to most.
Also, if you go outside the company bus shuttle bubble, companies never paid people all the commuting expenses that people incurred. Some _might_ give you a few bucks, but that rarely covers parking, gas, full public transport passes, wear and tear on your car, etc.
However, I would have internet whether I worked from home or not. I realize some people may need to upgrade their internet plans, but this probably doesn't apply to most.
Also, if you go outside the company bus shuttle bubble, companies never paid people all the commuting expenses that people incurred. Some _might_ give you a few bucks, but that rarely covers parking, gas, full public transport passes, wear and tear on your car, etc.
Companies don’t compensate employees for the cost of their commute either. I don’t see the big deal here; the marginal cost of working from home is often pretty close to zero.
It's really not. The costs of commuting and wfh vary dramatically between individuals.
In my case I have no commuting costs, I run or walk to work. Hell it's actually slightly cheaper as I showered at work 5 days a week.
The costs of wfh during winter however are massive as I live in an old northerly city where well insulated flats simply don't exist. Plus my flat is mostly one room, with massive windows and has electric heating. There's no affordable way to insulate it and heating it an extra 8 hours a day will cost £80-100 a month.
In my case I have no commuting costs, I run or walk to work. Hell it's actually slightly cheaper as I showered at work 5 days a week.
The costs of wfh during winter however are massive as I live in an old northerly city where well insulated flats simply don't exist. Plus my flat is mostly one room, with massive windows and has electric heating. There's no affordable way to insulate it and heating it an extra 8 hours a day will cost £80-100 a month.
Thanks for the numbers. I’ve never lived somewhere cold enough to make it noticeably more expensive to stay at home all day, but now you’ve got me wondering if the cost of WFH would be more noticeable if I had air conditioning. I’m sure the cost is also significant for normal people who don’t consider a desktop computer and fast home internet a basic utility.
They do actually. Maybe not where you live, but where I live it's normal (and expected) that employers compensate for commute.
Interesting, I haven’t heard of this. Is it like a fixed allowance or based on the employee’s actual costs? How does it work for cyclists and others with cheap commutes? Here in Australia we have various special allowances for some jobs, and it is normal for the employer to fund work-related travel during the day, but it’s not normal for employers to pay for the cost of commuting to a regular office job.
Where I live, companies often provide a loan for a train season ticket (about £6k/year), but you're still expected to pay for it yourself in the end.
Separately, the tax office does not allow employees or contractors to treat commutes as a tax-deductible expense. The cost of going to a non-habitual workplace is expensable, but not a regular commute.
Separately, the tax office does not allow employees or contractors to treat commutes as a tax-deductible expense. The cost of going to a non-habitual workplace is expensable, but not a regular commute.
There is a certain mindset - turns up all the time in economic discussions too - where if a change is made and doesn't lead to a metric-observable consequence in 6 months then that is the end of the discussion.
Working from home is crippling for forming new social connections. Promotions are done based, primarily, on social connections. Hiring too. There is very strong pressure for ambitious people who know how the world works to get back into the office.
And the social aspect of a supervisor understanding what their reports are doing is also easy to underestimate. Offices will be back as soon as it is practicable.
Working from home is crippling for forming new social connections. Promotions are done based, primarily, on social connections. Hiring too. There is very strong pressure for ambitious people who know how the world works to get back into the office.
And the social aspect of a supervisor understanding what their reports are doing is also easy to underestimate. Offices will be back as soon as it is practicable.
Perhaps we'll see a lot of those 'ambitious' people who talk a good game get overlooked in favour of those who actually deliver?
Supervisors can understand what their reports are.doing without physical presence.
I don't think "the office" will become a thing of the past, but I will welcome it being downgraded as the be-all and end-all for work that is not location sensitive.
Supervisors can understand what their reports are.doing without physical presence.
I don't think "the office" will become a thing of the past, but I will welcome it being downgraded as the be-all and end-all for work that is not location sensitive.
> Working from home is crippling for forming new social connections.
This is really strange to me as someone who has worked remotely for the past several years, because I've made more social connections outside of work than I ever did while working.
> And the social aspect of a supervisor understanding what their reports are doing is also easy to underestimate. Offices will be back as soon as it is practicable.
Sounds like offices will be back as soon as possible for workplaces where supervisors feel compelled to micromanage.
This is really strange to me as someone who has worked remotely for the past several years, because I've made more social connections outside of work than I ever did while working.
> And the social aspect of a supervisor understanding what their reports are doing is also easy to underestimate. Offices will be back as soon as it is practicable.
Sounds like offices will be back as soon as possible for workplaces where supervisors feel compelled to micromanage.
I assume they mean professional relationships.
I think that you are exactly right. But it is also something that people dont want to admit out loud. Many people need to believe that promotions and hirings are fair. Admitting it is often not, or that it is actually semi fair only had other implications and hurts motivation.
The belief keeps the system going. If people accepted reality, they'd be more likely to move on to something more likely to help meet their goals.
As someone who is ambitious, I hope the lockdown continues. Fewer pieces on the board makes everything easier.
What do you mean
>There is very strong pressure for ambitious people who know how the world works to get back into the office.
>There is very strong pressure for ambitious people who know how the world works to get back into the office.
People who want to succeed in management need to play the social game of making friends, showing support, taking an interest in what is going on and getting a feel for what the unofficial power structures in a company are doing.
It is possible to do all that remotely. But people in physical proximity have a massive advantage. If two roughly equal people are trying for a promotion, the one with more face time in the office is quite likely to get it. That is how human social activity works.
Now if literally everyone is at home then it doesn't matter. But as soon as anyone is in the office, everyone who wants a promotion will end up in the office.
It is possible to do all that remotely. But people in physical proximity have a massive advantage. If two roughly equal people are trying for a promotion, the one with more face time in the office is quite likely to get it. That is how human social activity works.
Now if literally everyone is at home then it doesn't matter. But as soon as anyone is in the office, everyone who wants a promotion will end up in the office.
I love remote work—some of the time. I also love offices—some of the time. I fear that in ditching offices completely, we might lose out on some society-level benefits, like knowledge spillovers. Specifically, remote-work (to me) makes it more difficult to learn from others, to hear about what else is happening in the organization, to discuss interesting new ideas that could potentially be spun into new products or companies. A team can also more easily and quickly learn to collaborate while in-person.
This doesn't even touch on all the economic spillovers of having people in the same area, such as restaurants and other services catering to the concentration of office workers (as mentioned by the author), but also things like specialized lawyers, financiers, and other professional services that concentrate around Silicon Valley and other agglomerative clusters.
Ultimately, I hope we can come to a compromise, something like 50/50 remote/office, with smaller offices that cater more towards the explicitly social functions of the organization.
This doesn't even touch on all the economic spillovers of having people in the same area, such as restaurants and other services catering to the concentration of office workers (as mentioned by the author), but also things like specialized lawyers, financiers, and other professional services that concentrate around Silicon Valley and other agglomerative clusters.
Ultimately, I hope we can come to a compromise, something like 50/50 remote/office, with smaller offices that cater more towards the explicitly social functions of the organization.
I went from an environment of blaring led lights, friends repeats playing on the tv all day that I had to muffle with headphones because people could stand to work “in a library” and commuting 30+ min each way in stressful crawling traffic, to sleeping in an hour longer, natural lighting and a quiet environment with better hardware than what the office has.
This has made me insanely productive and I don’t know if I have ever had such a great streak before. Going back to the office ruins all of that.
So I say, boo-hoo to the real estate investors.
This has made me insanely productive and I don’t know if I have ever had such a great streak before. Going back to the office ruins all of that.
So I say, boo-hoo to the real estate investors.
I find the idea of blaring a TV or music in an office is so disrespectful. The people who need quiet to work _really_ need it...if you need noise put some headphones on to listen to music or a show. It shouldn’t be the other way around, it is much harder to block out the noise with headphones. Coworking spaces are terrible for this.
This is pretty significant to me, I live in the a place where viability is not very good and spent almost 2h30m in my daily commute, plus 8h40m working.
Since the lockdown and the "working-from-home" revolution I've had the time to start working out, sleep more and better, cook my own food, not being a complete zombie in the evenings, spend more time with my girlfriend...
Of course I'm in a position to say this because I'm also lucky, I have a beautiful home in a nice place.
I always took the reality of the commute and working in the office for a fact, but my productivity also sky rocketed in this period.
I know that sometime soon I'll be back in the office, but it will be incredibly hard to go back to my previous life and give up all of this.
What particularly saddens me is the idea of how wonderful fatherhood could be working from home, and all the time with my kids I'll have to give up again when I'll go back to spend 11h outdoors daily.
Since the lockdown and the "working-from-home" revolution I've had the time to start working out, sleep more and better, cook my own food, not being a complete zombie in the evenings, spend more time with my girlfriend...
Of course I'm in a position to say this because I'm also lucky, I have a beautiful home in a nice place.
I always took the reality of the commute and working in the office for a fact, but my productivity also sky rocketed in this period.
I know that sometime soon I'll be back in the office, but it will be incredibly hard to go back to my previous life and give up all of this.
What particularly saddens me is the idea of how wonderful fatherhood could be working from home, and all the time with my kids I'll have to give up again when I'll go back to spend 11h outdoors daily.
My coworker seems to be fighting for us to go back because he's sick of spending all day at home with his wife.
This is, sadly, common. I’ve heard a handful of people say they go to work to get away from their family situation.
Understandable. A lot of family relationships are under a lot of strain right now and enjoying 8hours a day with someone doesn't mean you'll enjoy spending 24/7 with them.
Hopefully, offices open up as an option for people who want separation for various reasons.
Hopefully, offices open up as an option for people who want separation for various reasons.
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Mid level managers and their empire building ... found we function better without them and they are not required.
The comments here are repeatedly suggesting a compromise between fully remote and fully on-site: "Just have employees come into the office X days a week instead of every day."
This is my preferred outcome, but the main benefit of remote work, for me, has been the opportunity to leave the Bay Area. I can't really stand the idea that I'd be forced back into the Bay Area housing/rental market, just so that I can attend a few days of meetings per month. It would be the worst of all worlds.
So I'm hoping that the reported techie exodus from SF leads to a diaspora, with attractive tech job opportunities cropping up in more U.S. cities.
This is my preferred outcome, but the main benefit of remote work, for me, has been the opportunity to leave the Bay Area. I can't really stand the idea that I'd be forced back into the Bay Area housing/rental market, just so that I can attend a few days of meetings per month. It would be the worst of all worlds.
So I'm hoping that the reported techie exodus from SF leads to a diaspora, with attractive tech job opportunities cropping up in more U.S. cities.
This is how I feel too. I like working in an office, but I don't find living in the Bay Area to be worth it. A partial WFH situation isn't that much better than full-time in-office if it means moving back to the Bay Area.
I'm not banging any drums but I was excited to get back to an office. I think it's similar to the saying "Dress for Success", in that, when I'm in the office, I focus on work and get more done. Everything around me is work related and focused, there are no distractions, and I really get stuff done.
My situation may be a bit unique, in that I work in an office alone (we are a remote work team, but I still keep an office), and my commute is very short. Still, I've always found it hard working at home and being as productive as at an office.
My situation may be a bit unique, in that I work in an office alone (we are a remote work team, but I still keep an office), and my commute is very short. Still, I've always found it hard working at home and being as productive as at an office.
Same here. I am remote, but, up until the shutdown, I worked out of a coworking space.
Some things have improved. For example, my office-based colleagues' videoconferencing etiquette has improved dramatically. Nowhere near as many people doing things like leaving their camera off and blatantly working on other things instead of paying attention to the meeting.
But my own sense of wellbeing has suffered, all the same. I find it much easier to maintain work-life boundaries when work happens somewhere else.
Some things have improved. For example, my office-based colleagues' videoconferencing etiquette has improved dramatically. Nowhere near as many people doing things like leaving their camera off and blatantly working on other things instead of paying attention to the meeting.
But my own sense of wellbeing has suffered, all the same. I find it much easier to maintain work-life boundaries when work happens somewhere else.
That's more than a 'bit' unique, that's very uncommon. Nice situation though.
Yeah, he might as well be rolling from his bedroom to his guest bedroom where he keeps his laptop.
...
In any case, if anyone else here has worked in a nice office setup (4 walls + door, no uptight manager, no long commute, and no army boot camp style communal bathrooms) then you'll know that the main problem with working from an office is those particulars. WFH is nice simply because everybody's house is nicer than a trash office build-out.
...
In any case, if anyone else here has worked in a nice office setup (4 walls + door, no uptight manager, no long commute, and no army boot camp style communal bathrooms) then you'll know that the main problem with working from an office is those particulars. WFH is nice simply because everybody's house is nicer than a trash office build-out.
The expectation from the fortune 500 company I work at is we will eventually go back to normal. Though we are slowly starting to come around to COVID as being potentially a multi-year situation. We’ve got a small number of people in management roles that will return a few days a week in office soon. I’m personally a bit worried this will create an expectation or disadvantage for others not in office. In my observation there is a political commonality to the management returning to office in our company that may be a driver for them.
The best answer I've heard of is a company opening up the offices but mandating that all meetings are over videoconference anyway. Need to get out of the house? There's an office for you. But you don't have an inherent in-person advantage in a meeting.
> Cynically I might suggest the real subtext here is about propping up commercial property investment portfolios.
Great article. I recommend taking out the word "cynically". That is what this is about.
Great article. I recommend taking out the word "cynically". That is what this is about.
There are about three problems with the current forced WFH situation:
1. People simply aren’t used to it yet. The self discipline part, knowing when to work... and when to stop too.
2. You do need some sort of dedicated space. I’ve been working from home just fine for 20 years but I have a separate room for that.
3. Especially in tech, management may not have the knowledge to judge productivity. Measuring time the chair is filled in the office is much easier than evaluating a developer’s work based on just what they do.
1. People simply aren’t used to it yet. The self discipline part, knowing when to work... and when to stop too.
2. You do need some sort of dedicated space. I’ve been working from home just fine for 20 years but I have a separate room for that.
3. Especially in tech, management may not have the knowledge to judge productivity. Measuring time the chair is filled in the office is much easier than evaluating a developer’s work based on just what they do.
I don’t have a dedicated office but I do have a dedicated space in the living room (which is large).
At home I have a fast 8C/16T desktop with two 4K screens and a comfortable chair, awesome sound setup.
Vs a 1.5hr commute and the inevitable MacBook it’s a good trade imo.
When we buy a house I’m converting the garage into a proper office/motorcycle workshop though just because I’ll have the space.
At home I have a fast 8C/16T desktop with two 4K screens and a comfortable chair, awesome sound setup.
Vs a 1.5hr commute and the inevitable MacBook it’s a good trade imo.
When we buy a house I’m converting the garage into a proper office/motorcycle workshop though just because I’ll have the space.
Well put. It took me around a month to get into the WFH mood (point 1). I have a dedicated room and I don't see (at least for me) WFH feasible without one (point 2). Regarding point 3: unfortunately, I cannot control that.
> The key phrase here is: managed and supported appropriately. Certainly managers need to reinvent themselves as mentors to this style of working and then – forgive me – get the hell out of the way.
I think that this may be the key thing that the pandemic has accelerated: A re-evaluation of what kind of management is appropriate for modern work, and whether that management can be performed by the self, another person, another company, or perhaps even by a tool.
Managing work, in an idealized sense, is wasteful because it’s not actually production. Of course, in the real world we need all sorts of management of our work, from well informed decisions by individuals all the way up to strategic alignment of whole organizations. But how we actually get that management done, and done effectively, feels like it’s taking center stage now that our old routines have been up-ended.
Edit: Note that an individual’s preference work at home, for or against, is in a sense a vote for a certain kind of management. As the article points out, work at home can be interrupted with Zoom And Slack just like it was in the office with in-person meetings and office chatter, so the at home/at office debate kind of masks the real issue: We all want better management. Now we just need to invent it.
I think that this may be the key thing that the pandemic has accelerated: A re-evaluation of what kind of management is appropriate for modern work, and whether that management can be performed by the self, another person, another company, or perhaps even by a tool.
Managing work, in an idealized sense, is wasteful because it’s not actually production. Of course, in the real world we need all sorts of management of our work, from well informed decisions by individuals all the way up to strategic alignment of whole organizations. But how we actually get that management done, and done effectively, feels like it’s taking center stage now that our old routines have been up-ended.
Edit: Note that an individual’s preference work at home, for or against, is in a sense a vote for a certain kind of management. As the article points out, work at home can be interrupted with Zoom And Slack just like it was in the office with in-person meetings and office chatter, so the at home/at office debate kind of masks the real issue: We all want better management. Now we just need to invent it.
I've often found people praising WFH during CoVid times by viewing it as an opportunity to pursue their pass-times, I love the great outdoors/traveling and have found the CoVid restrictions stifling my pass times. I'm at a point where I don't hate WFH but I hate WFH during the CoVid time. I see a lot of articles extrapolating the WFH during CoVid time to WFH in general, I think these are two different things.
> I see a lot of articles extrapolating the WFH during CoVid time to WFH in general, I think these are two different things.
Thank you! Likewise, I don't actually want to WFH except for the fact that there's a pandemic and it's the responsible thing to do given that I'm able to. It's getting tiring explaining this to management- the argument somehow becomes about WFH during non-pandemic times.
Thank you! Likewise, I don't actually want to WFH except for the fact that there's a pandemic and it's the responsible thing to do given that I'm able to. It's getting tiring explaining this to management- the argument somehow becomes about WFH during non-pandemic times.
I've mentioned this before, but WFH has a huge difference in result depending on who you are, when you are (in your career), and where you are in a company (or organization). For some people, going back to the office has benefits.
-- For the budding young developer who can't wait to show ideas to teammates and demonstrate being a go-getter by asking random questions and finding unaddressed issues to innovate on, WFH might be terrible. You're going to schedule time to fortuitously run into the senior person who takes an interest in your idea?
-- For the working parent whose productivity has been slashed by 50% and stress has gone up by 50% due to parenting obligations, WFH might be terrible.
-- For the middle manager who can coast along and not need to move greatly in his/her career, WFH might be great.
-- For the developer who works by tickets on very concrete things and this is nothing new, WFH might be great.
-- For the small company CEO who relies on force of personality and everyone in the same room urgently working to get something done, WFH might be terrible.
There's a huge variability in what WFH means, depending on what you want from the situation.
For some people, remote working is really not good.
And also count your other hidden factors -- when everyone is remote, you're also competing with the world who is also remote. Jobs and job qualifications (and competition) may change. You might still have a job if people have to go back in person...
This is not just "those evil exploitative bosses want to get us back in offices". It's not that simple, as with anything.
-- For the budding young developer who can't wait to show ideas to teammates and demonstrate being a go-getter by asking random questions and finding unaddressed issues to innovate on, WFH might be terrible. You're going to schedule time to fortuitously run into the senior person who takes an interest in your idea?
-- For the working parent whose productivity has been slashed by 50% and stress has gone up by 50% due to parenting obligations, WFH might be terrible.
-- For the middle manager who can coast along and not need to move greatly in his/her career, WFH might be great.
-- For the developer who works by tickets on very concrete things and this is nothing new, WFH might be great.
-- For the small company CEO who relies on force of personality and everyone in the same room urgently working to get something done, WFH might be terrible.
There's a huge variability in what WFH means, depending on what you want from the situation.
For some people, remote working is really not good.
And also count your other hidden factors -- when everyone is remote, you're also competing with the world who is also remote. Jobs and job qualifications (and competition) may change. You might still have a job if people have to go back in person...
This is not just "those evil exploitative bosses want to get us back in offices". It's not that simple, as with anything.
For the working parent whose productivity has been slashed by 50% and stress has gone up by 50% due to parenting obligations, WFH might be terrible.
But it’s worth bearing in mind that this in particular is an almost completely orthogonal issue.
But it’s worth bearing in mind that this in particular is an almost completely orthogonal issue.
For the consultant developer working on green-field prototypes in a small team, it's also been amazing.
I've always been competing with developers all around the world - it's not like outsourcing is new.
I've always been competing with developers all around the world - it's not like outsourcing is new.
Darwinian fitness was never solely about “braun” but the ability to adapt. If these people cannot adapt, then maybe they weren’t the right people to hire for the job.
The hidden factors you mention are based upon conjecture. You are right remote work proves that you can hire anybody in the world. However, that doesn’t mean companies should pay a person that lives in another country a lower wage than the American counterpart.
The platitude of “you get what you pay for” really shines in this discussion. I have witnessed amazing talent from all across the globe that produced excellent results for the team and company. At the same time, I have also seen dog shit work produced by Americans and abroad. In the latter group, I noticed the individual was paid much lower than expected or in a bid for contracting companies the company took the lowest bid offered.
I have seen numerous projects fall significantly behind schedule due to buggy features or just constant re-work of terribly implemented features because someone at the project management level thought they could convince poorly paid people to push out quality work.
The hidden factors you mention are based upon conjecture. You are right remote work proves that you can hire anybody in the world. However, that doesn’t mean companies should pay a person that lives in another country a lower wage than the American counterpart.
The platitude of “you get what you pay for” really shines in this discussion. I have witnessed amazing talent from all across the globe that produced excellent results for the team and company. At the same time, I have also seen dog shit work produced by Americans and abroad. In the latter group, I noticed the individual was paid much lower than expected or in a bid for contracting companies the company took the lowest bid offered.
I have seen numerous projects fall significantly behind schedule due to buggy features or just constant re-work of terribly implemented features because someone at the project management level thought they could convince poorly paid people to push out quality work.
From a government/economy perspective, office workers do contribute a lot to local businesses when they pop out for lunch, coffee, etc. While furlough schemes are gradually wrapping up (eg in the UK), reducing redundancies does depend on some level of normalcy in people's day to day spending.
But why try to support that, instead of allow the economy to adapt?
I spent £180 per week on transport before this, and another £50+ on coffee and meals.
At the end of the year I will have saved enough to get my bathroom refitted, benefitting local tradespeople. I also go out and buy coffee and food locally more often.
The spending won't be lost, it'll change. And if we're lucky it'll change in a way that spreads the money out beyond London.
The real sector that's f*cked is commercial property.
I spent £180 per week on transport before this, and another £50+ on coffee and meals.
At the end of the year I will have saved enough to get my bathroom refitted, benefitting local tradespeople. I also go out and buy coffee and food locally more often.
The spending won't be lost, it'll change. And if we're lucky it'll change in a way that spreads the money out beyond London.
The real sector that's f*cked is commercial property.
I think that viewpoint definitely does have some validity, but in this case I think rests quite heavily on the idea that post-covid will closely resemble the current way people do things.
Clearly there will be some significant change, but I'm sure it will be a balance between what we had and how things are now.
Once that happens, we don't really want to have lots of businesses to have gone bankrupt. At least not the ones we will still want when things have reached that balance.
Clearly there will be some significant change, but I'm sure it will be a balance between what we had and how things are now.
Once that happens, we don't really want to have lots of businesses to have gone bankrupt. At least not the ones we will still want when things have reached that balance.
Encouraging people to commute just so the coffee joint near the office can survive is economically and ethically disproportional. Commuting is, for most people and at least for a large part of the commute, a waste of time.
I worked remote for 3 years. It was great at first (10ft commute, woo!), but I wouldn't choose to do it long-term. All those relationships I'd made with co-workers slowly withered as the team changed, and by the end we just didn't work as cohesively together.
It wasn't a failure per se, we still shipped software, it was just clearly a lot less effective (both for me career-wise, and for the team as a whole). So I would strongly prefer a job that's in-person at least a few days every week.
Some caveats: this was before video conferencing, slack or FB Workplace so maybe things are better now. And, it might be different when everyone is remote so YMMV.
Some caveats: this was before video conferencing, slack or FB Workplace so maybe things are better now. And, it might be different when everyone is remote so YMMV.
> this was before video conferencing, slack or FB Workplace so maybe things are better now.
I do think things must be a lot better now. I started a new job after COVID began, so I still have never met my team in person. I’m on video calls with them multiple times a day though, and slack with them all day. Sure, it probably isn’t quite as good as in person contact, but I’ve been shocked how well it has worked and how well I feel like I know most of them.
I do think things must be a lot better now. I started a new job after COVID began, so I still have never met my team in person. I’m on video calls with them multiple times a day though, and slack with them all day. Sure, it probably isn’t quite as good as in person contact, but I’ve been shocked how well it has worked and how well I feel like I know most of them.
i dread the office. for me going into the office means sitting at my desk, getting my work done and occasionally interacting with my team. it's not that I didn't like them or something else, I just don't care. they are not my friends, they are co-workers. I will forever pick remote work over office.
I wish people didn't see it as a binary option. "The office" vs "Remote". And no I'm not talking about suggesting alternatives like "work from home". I'm talking more about let's look at it through the lens of "employer control" and "individual empowerment".
The article points to some statistics about the benefits of remote work. But I think those benefits are more derived from enabling individuals to decide what is best for them and their company. Alot of what is described in "Bullshit Jobs" was reversed overnight, and we're seeing the benefits of that. Location has nothing to do with it.
The article points to some statistics about the benefits of remote work. But I think those benefits are more derived from enabling individuals to decide what is best for them and their company. Alot of what is described in "Bullshit Jobs" was reversed overnight, and we're seeing the benefits of that. Location has nothing to do with it.
When I was single, I always rented an apartment in a walking distance from my office, no matter how much it cost, 2-3 hours of my time daily are priceless.
Now when I have a family, remote work is a real money-saving solution, but gosh, how I miss the office and how I'm tired of my home turned into an office. My wife also works here, we have two workspaces, 3 printers, but no space anymore for "switching context" from work to home, and no private time, work may find you at 11 pm, and you can't stop thinking of doing more today to do less tomorrow. I read everything about WFH planning and self-discipline, but this is how it works for us at the moment.
Now when I have a family, remote work is a real money-saving solution, but gosh, how I miss the office and how I'm tired of my home turned into an office. My wife also works here, we have two workspaces, 3 printers, but no space anymore for "switching context" from work to home, and no private time, work may find you at 11 pm, and you can't stop thinking of doing more today to do less tomorrow. I read everything about WFH planning and self-discipline, but this is how it works for us at the moment.
Remote work does not work for people who switch from office to home. It is not in their blood. Most office employees need constant management. If the employee can get away with watching netflix and do minimum from home, they will do it. I've observed many employees getting super slow or unreachable almost instantly after they start working from home. Most bosses don't like it and they get fired. In most cases nothing was related to covid in my opinion because obviously the employee performance dropped dramatically.
Work from home won't work for many companies. Period.
Work from home won't work for many companies. Period.
There are widespread reports from companies that their employees are proving to be more productive working from home during Covid-19 than they were in the office.
Based on that, it would be wrong to jump to the conclusion the "most" employees need constant management in an office and will do the minimum possible at home.
This is why there's such a big debate about WFH now. Having tried it at scale in a forced situation, turns out it actually works ok for many jobs in the short term.
Based on that, it would be wrong to jump to the conclusion the "most" employees need constant management in an office and will do the minimum possible at home.
This is why there's such a big debate about WFH now. Having tried it at scale in a forced situation, turns out it actually works ok for many jobs in the short term.
I think what this is taught me is that we need both.
It is too much to be in the office all of the time because sometimes "life" happens or you need the ability to have some silence and concentrate.
It is too much to be remote all of the time because software is a team sport and to function optimally, we need to have great human relationships and communication, and those are better done face to face.
We need to find the "happy midpoint" between these two extremes as a working culture.
It is too much to be in the office all of the time because sometimes "life" happens or you need the ability to have some silence and concentrate.
It is too much to be remote all of the time because software is a team sport and to function optimally, we need to have great human relationships and communication, and those are better done face to face.
We need to find the "happy midpoint" between these two extremes as a working culture.
It completely depends on your home situation. If you have a quiet home office with fast broadband then why not work from home.
If however you and your partner are squeezed round a small table in a studio flat with no air con fighting over crappy WiFi the office makes a lot of sense.
The author finally comes to this point at the end of the article. It’s not all back to the office or the death of the office, it’s somewhere in between. Unfortunately that’s not a good headline.
If however you and your partner are squeezed round a small table in a studio flat with no air con fighting over crappy WiFi the office makes a lot of sense.
The author finally comes to this point at the end of the article. It’s not all back to the office or the death of the office, it’s somewhere in between. Unfortunately that’s not a good headline.
My question to those stuck two to a studio - are you doing that in a large, expensive city?
Would you not be happier able to be completely unchained from an office location, and able to choose to live anywhere? Then you could likely have a bigger place too.
Would you not be happier able to be completely unchained from an office location, and able to choose to live anywhere? Then you could likely have a bigger place too.
Yes, but I’m not about to give up my lease and start shopping around for rural real estate during the pandemic. Most of the upside of living in the city is gone for now, but I expect those advantages to come back next year.
No. I love living in the city. I like the restaurants, shops, bars, etc. I also like having people around, especially during the summers.
That's fair enough, but the choice then is on you.
The thing is, you can get all of what they say they want in any large city in the world much cheaper than large cities in the US if one does their research… my 3br apartment with a home office in Jakarta is still cheaper than the 1B in in any city in US, or in my personal experience, compared to the 3br apt I split with two other grown men in Boston 5 years ago when I first started working remotely (and way nicer and more amenities too).
And now, way more companies open to hiring remote workers!
And now, way more companies open to hiring remote workers!
While I am now strictly WFH oriented (been remote for 10 years) office workers contribute to local businesses. Lunch options, funding public transportation, etc.
There’s a balance to be had, which remains to be seen. I personally will choose a flexible company that allows remote work 100% of the time. I prefer to work in increments spread throughout the day, not a strictly regimented 9-5 which office environments encourage.
There’s a balance to be had, which remains to be seen. I personally will choose a flexible company that allows remote work 100% of the time. I prefer to work in increments spread throughout the day, not a strictly regimented 9-5 which office environments encourage.
"Cynically I might suggest the real subtext here is about propping up commercial property investment portfolios." Yup. https://therealdeal.com/2020/08/20/little-bit-of-guilt-trip-...
Not being in the office exposes a lot of the workplace theater we participate in, in order to put on a facade that we are working or being productive. Now, you can truly just not work on some days when you aren't feeling it. You can actually embrace the lulls and highs that ebbs and flows through the very nature of work.
Every once in a while some blogger posts an idillic picture of a guy with his laptop working on a sandy beach under a palm tree.
Once you start thinking about it:
- it's hot there. There's no AC on a beach.
- wifi in the beach is mostly likely poor
- sand is a nasty substance which gets everywhere, including your laptop
- the nearest coffee machine may be a couple of miles away
and so on.
I'd rather work in an office.
Once you start thinking about it:
- it's hot there. There's no AC on a beach.
- wifi in the beach is mostly likely poor
- sand is a nasty substance which gets everywhere, including your laptop
- the nearest coffee machine may be a couple of miles away
and so on.
I'd rather work in an office.
Lots of this in hinged on the fact that real estate business will inevitably collapse. Dont expect them to take this hit lightly and "pivot" or "adjust". The whole business is based on "location location location" - which will (already has) become more and more irrelevant.
Lie he said/quoted the in-between part of meetings and office work is missing and I think it's essential.
IMHO Trying to emulate office work procedures with video conferences isn't helpful.
A move to out-of-office work should go hand in hand with a move to more async leadership and (technical) communication.
> what we gain in work-life balance
Might be nothing or even massive negative depending on the combination of your (home) environment and personality.
Remote work has the uncanny side effect to make it harder for people which have certain kind of problems, like abusive parterns or a otherwise "broken" home, addiction, depression or some other mental problems.
Sure at the same time it can enable some people with mental problems to work, through often under the condition that their problems are already handled well.
IMHO Trying to emulate office work procedures with video conferences isn't helpful.
A move to out-of-office work should go hand in hand with a move to more async leadership and (technical) communication.
> what we gain in work-life balance
Might be nothing or even massive negative depending on the combination of your (home) environment and personality.
Remote work has the uncanny side effect to make it harder for people which have certain kind of problems, like abusive parterns or a otherwise "broken" home, addiction, depression or some other mental problems.
Sure at the same time it can enable some people with mental problems to work, through often under the condition that their problems are already handled well.
Bosses want you back so they can efficiently micromanage you and treats lush some sense of the control they’ve lost.
If you want/need to go to the office, great, go for it.
Requiring people that have a desk job to be in a specific building to do their work is absurd.
Edit: I’ve been working remote for almost 12 years.
If you want/need to go to the office, great, go for it.
Requiring people that have a desk job to be in a specific building to do their work is absurd.
Edit: I’ve been working remote for almost 12 years.
Some people definitely enjoy working in an office; for others, it’s a necessity given limited space or facilities at home. I totally understand individuals’ desire to get back, and equally the desire of others to continue working at home. Certainly as a hardware company it’s been important for us to be able to take turns in the office occasionally.
But the effect the article has noted is really prevalent and weird. Seeing the actual UK government banging on about how essential it is for everybody to get “back to the office”, being very explicitly anti-remote-working, and using their usual propaganda channels to spread that message is a strange choice at the moment. It’s hard to find a convincing explanation for.
But the effect the article has noted is really prevalent and weird. Seeing the actual UK government banging on about how essential it is for everybody to get “back to the office”, being very explicitly anti-remote-working, and using their usual propaganda channels to spread that message is a strange choice at the moment. It’s hard to find a convincing explanation for.
>It’s hard to find a convincing explanation for.
Cynically, the leadership of top companies wants workers back in the office (for whatever reason) and the current government is in their pocket.
Cynically, the leadership of top companies wants workers back in the office (for whatever reason) and the current government is in their pocket.
From one perspective, it's frustrating to see employers happily taking advantage of employees' real estate and internet connections for free, but since I have the spare room already, and I'm not commuting, I'll take it.
What would be nice is either a stipend to account for a bigger place with a spare room and connections, or to work out of a shared work space things. Like give me an extra couple hundred a year to get a place with an extra bedroom
A shared work space thing... like an office? ;-P
But yes, I agree. Since my company will be saving tons of money once their lease comes up for renewal, and already hasn't had to expand despite hiring more than 60 people this year, it does seem like a stipend is in order.
But yes, I agree. Since my company will be saving tons of money once their lease comes up for renewal, and already hasn't had to expand despite hiring more than 60 people this year, it does seem like a stipend is in order.
I miss being in the office so that I can go for coffees with people at morning tea, lunch and beers after work, I miss the human connection that cannot truely occur via via conferencing software, I miss walking around the city at lunch and even the 30-40 minute community to/from work (about half the time). I miss having a lunch room to sit and spitball ideas in that people truly, naturally walk in and out of, I miss meeting rooms not for bad meetings but for good hands on sessions with physical post-it notes, whiteboards, I miss being about to seperate work and home life, I miss the daily change of scenery. I miss having a work life.
Got to love the downvotes for expressing my personal opinion and experience through this nightmare that so many of us are in. HN comments are truly becoming like Reddit at times.
how do you downvote?
Sometimes I mess up when I’m in the wrong headspace but usually only for misinformation, aggressive hostility, personal insults. As I said I mess up sometimes and I try not to downvote too often.
No I mean, on HN, I thought you could only upvote. How can I downvote?
Once you have at least 500 upvote / karma points.
I wonder how people build meaningful professional relationships fully remote? I’m honestly asking as I’m new to it, and I’ve found the relationships with colleagues is what ensures and leads to future success.
Because you are not independent, cannot work without micromanagment and supervision, and can’t do anything by yourself. Because can I call you for 2 minutes is all you ask for 20 times a day. That’s why.
I wonder what else it is that we deem “impossible” but when we’re forced to make it happen overnight like remote work, we’ll find it’s totally doable... 20h workweeks? Sustainable energy and living?
Control.
That, and the fact that many politicians, media barons and other wealthy individuals stand to lose a lot of money on their commercial property investments, and so have their flying monkeys working overtime to persuade the rest of us to risk life and health for no good reason.
These threads get pretty emotional and dogmatic. I think it’s not actually that complicated: some people really enjoy remote, some people don’t. Perhaps we should learn to be more comfortable with “live and let live” instead of feeling the need to convince everyone to be the same way we are.
In my case, I worked remotely for a lot of my career pre-COVID, and of course have been remote since. I don’t like the Bay Area housing situation, and the freedom to look elsewhere is appealing... but I really do miss the office.
In my case, I worked remotely for a lot of my career pre-COVID, and of course have been remote since. I don’t like the Bay Area housing situation, and the freedom to look elsewhere is appealing... but I really do miss the office.
I wonder how many people used to work with the people they sat next to?
That was a rare experience for me back in the old W-2 office days.
My boss was in another state, another timezone, another shift, sometimes another country. Ditto coworkers, internal and external customers.
I had a few office jobs supporting field circus techs where by definition we never worked physically together and they had no idea if they called me at work or home.
There are a lot of 3 to 5 person companies out there where people labor away shoulder to shoulder for hours; but not that many.
That was a rare experience for me back in the old W-2 office days.
My boss was in another state, another timezone, another shift, sometimes another country. Ditto coworkers, internal and external customers.
I had a few office jobs supporting field circus techs where by definition we never worked physically together and they had no idea if they called me at work or home.
There are a lot of 3 to 5 person companies out there where people labor away shoulder to shoulder for hours; but not that many.
There is a huge percent of people that simply hate their life at home. The office is an excuse that they "must" be away from their home.
Depending on where these people fall in the power/management structure is what determines how the return plays out.
I read somewhere that we didn't have people barricading themselves in the office refusing to leave. Where I'm at we literally did and those people successfully managed to stay at work when 95% of the staff was not.
Depending on where these people fall in the power/management structure is what determines how the return plays out.
I read somewhere that we didn't have people barricading themselves in the office refusing to leave. Where I'm at we literally did and those people successfully managed to stay at work when 95% of the staff was not.
Looking at it from South East England, this shows what a huge business commuting is. Probably millions of people commute into London every day. Train fares (which are expensive), taxi fares, coffee shops, takeaway food, pubs, restaurants. Since lockdown people who have been working from home have found that they suddenly have plenty of cash on hand for a reason. Commuting is big business and that's why some are lobbying for commuting to resume ASAP.
Interesting piece. I wrote a similar one recently about the effects of an office exodus on central London property. So far some of my predictions have come to pass, eg paradoxical mini property boom outside London
https://zwischenzugs.com/2020/07/25/the-halving-of-the-centr...
https://zwischenzugs.com/2020/07/25/the-halving-of-the-centr...
I really liked this linked article below which talks about what makes people most productive. Its starts off talking about brainstorming, which it says doesn't work, but goes on to talking about more general collaboration and is relevant for this debate.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/01/30/groupthink
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/01/30/groupthink
Because my desk is so easy to access, I've found myself working nearly non-stop for ... longer than I care to think about. I have trouble sleeping because I didn't give myself time to wind down. I wake up early thinking about programming. I need a detox. When we get an office again, I'll ask for a desktop and only work from there. When I come home, it's home and not work.
I think it depends on what your living situation is like as well.
Because I live reasonably far out into the suburbs, my home office is a completely separate room, so it's fairly easy to just totally forget it exists when I stop work.
Because I live reasonably far out into the suburbs, my home office is a completely separate room, so it's fairly easy to just totally forget it exists when I stop work.
I'm moving soon to enable that separation.
I've been choosing to live within an hour walk from work for many years now.
While I didn't normally walk to work (pre-pandemia) I knew I could and I did (I live in a major capital with lots of transit disruptions).
I definitely wouldn't want to work at the office every day, but I also wouldn't want to stay at home everyday either (hunting for a seat on a cafe counts as wfh for me).
While I didn't normally walk to work (pre-pandemia) I knew I could and I did (I live in a major capital with lots of transit disruptions).
I definitely wouldn't want to work at the office every day, but I also wouldn't want to stay at home everyday either (hunting for a seat on a cafe counts as wfh for me).
Sounds like a cry of a many managers who suddenly feel that their precious skin (some of them do nothing really useful) is in jeopardy.
When there is a sudden change, there are winners and losers.
The losers will complain and try to reverse the change.
That is all.
>An increasing number of executives now say that remote work [...] is not their preferred long-term solution once the coronavirus crisis passes.
An increasing number of people that spend their full office hours doing meetings, while devs need silence and solitude, complain that remote work sucks for meetings. Wow. What a bunch of egotistic children.
An increasing number of people that spend their full office hours doing meetings, while devs need silence and solitude, complain that remote work sucks for meetings. Wow. What a bunch of egotistic children.
> it seems some people really are suggesting that businesses > should alter their workplace strategies in order to save…> > sandwich shops.
>
> OK, I’m exaggerating for effect.
If only! Richard Tice (major political funder) had spent a lot of time on Twitter claiming remote work is directly responsible for Pret closing stores!
If only! Richard Tice (major political funder) had spent a lot of time on Twitter claiming remote work is directly responsible for Pret closing stores!
What about the simplest explanation - shareholders believe that when people meet in office face-to-face it generates more value.
If WFH produces superior result, it should mean that companies endorsing WFH should be better investments and make more profit.
It is also possible that other factors matter way more, and therefore it is not the thing to focus on.
If WFH produces superior result, it should mean that companies endorsing WFH should be better investments and make more profit.
It is also possible that other factors matter way more, and therefore it is not the thing to focus on.
It’s gonna be a shift from mostly office to a lot more hybrid office-remote. Most can’t just go fully remote.
So how do you hire and on-board junior people?
Every remote contract I done I found that when client hires another junior(fresh out of college) person productivity plummets for everyone. When you have one in the office I find that mentoring them and getting them to be useful is much easier.
Every remote contract I done I found that when client hires another junior(fresh out of college) person productivity plummets for everyone. When you have one in the office I find that mentoring them and getting them to be useful is much easier.
Plenty of people want to get back to the office because it's pragmatically better for some of us, but the media stories about returning to offices are being driven by people who own commercial real estate. The narrative is being driven by money, as always.
We need some kind of open, easily auditable telemetric suite which people can use to monitor resource usage on their home (electric, HVAC, compute, network) and bill their employers. Then let's see how much the corporates REALLY want work from home.
I suspect remote management will be taught in business school. This remote stuff is already common thing for software engineers (open source projects) but it's very new for people outside software engineering. So I can empathize with them.
Because I haven’t spent time with another human in person since March. It’s depressing.
Slighly off-topic, when you think about it, offices are such a waste of space. I'd really like to rent of buy an office and actually live there, because it's so quiet by night since there are very little neighborhood
> We can do so much better, for ourselves, our customers and society if we stop being so frightened or so certain of the future.
That would require removing emotion from our biology. Maybe shoot for something smaller.
That would require removing emotion from our biology. Maybe shoot for something smaller.
The article is better than this discussion, quite sad. Anyways as with any huge societal shift, some people will be fit for this, and have been waiting for it for quite a long time, and others are ... not.
Because there are a surprising number of employees and managers who don't produce customer-usable value, and are less important when all the value is being produced from "home" or elsewhere.
Data point: Most of my single co-workers, most of whom have roommates, would like to return to working in an office. They miss the social aspect of work, and for some of them it’s hard to work from home.
The company I work for is looking at subsidizing rent as wfh office space. But, this company has been remote first for the past ten years, so their thought process is years ahead of most companies.
Thanks for so many comments on my original post. I'm going to try and include some of the challenges in a follow up
Thanks again
Paul Taylor www.paulitaylor.com
Twitter: @paulbromford
My company just finished building an additional 3 million sq feet of office space on our main campus. I imagine they are anxious to get us back onto campus to justify that capital expanse.
I've read a pile of these articles and it always seems to be one or the other as though they are mutually exclusive.
Why isn't this a hybrid solution?
Why isn't this a hybrid solution?
I dont think the conclusion is super useful. So i Will give you a better one. So far little indicates this is more than an emergency.
People are social and don't like change.
We are being forced to change and take the 'physical' out of the social.
What's not to like?!?!
We are being forced to change and take the 'physical' out of the social.
What's not to like?!?!
Thanks for so many comments on my original post. I'm going to try and include some of them in a follow up.
I think it's a lot more complicated than just "from home" or "in the office". There are a lot of different home situations, many different types of commutes, and then there is the specific software and hardware you use for communication and how you configure it.
For example, take something like presence. The boss wants to know if you are working. With software, there are ways to track that if it's really necessary. For a manager that doesn't trust the employees, activity tracking software gives about the even more information than being there, because you can actually see screenshots.
That is what UpWork does. It's quite invasive, and most people would not tolerate it if they felt they had the choice, but I bring it up as an example of how the software configuration makes as much difference as the physical location. And in fact tens (hundreds?) of thousands of people on UpWork have tolerated it. So it's a real thing, even though it's abhorrent.
The more sane way is having some way to see your reports' work output on a regular basis. And there is no reason that needs to be minute-to-minute or even day-to-day if there is a level of trust.
But presence is not just useful in a physical setting for monitoring employees. It also allows for things like spontaneous communication or types of communication not possible or difficult on a computer screen. Here I think again, the actual software available and the configuration can make a huge difference.
For example, if you truly feel that water-cooler meetings are critical, you can build that into your at-home software setup and just make it mandatory. There are a lot of ways you could do that. It could literally be chat rooms named "water-cooler1" and "water-cooler2" and then you put some piece of required information like an expense code in there so people have to enter.
Or there are various types of software with virtual spaces, such as top-down maps where you see the location of your co-workers and can even hear their conversations if your avatar is close by. There are also 3d world's, both with a screen interface and a virtual reality interface.
I think especially as VR and AR headsets get more comfortable and usable over the next few years, that is really going to be able to compete with physical presence. For example, they are starting to track eye movements. That's going to make it possible to actually communicate using your eyes in VR.
Point being that there is a big spectrum in types or level of presence that is about the type of software and hardware configuration (and culture/rules) as much as it is about actual physical location.
For example, take something like presence. The boss wants to know if you are working. With software, there are ways to track that if it's really necessary. For a manager that doesn't trust the employees, activity tracking software gives about the even more information than being there, because you can actually see screenshots.
That is what UpWork does. It's quite invasive, and most people would not tolerate it if they felt they had the choice, but I bring it up as an example of how the software configuration makes as much difference as the physical location. And in fact tens (hundreds?) of thousands of people on UpWork have tolerated it. So it's a real thing, even though it's abhorrent.
The more sane way is having some way to see your reports' work output on a regular basis. And there is no reason that needs to be minute-to-minute or even day-to-day if there is a level of trust.
But presence is not just useful in a physical setting for monitoring employees. It also allows for things like spontaneous communication or types of communication not possible or difficult on a computer screen. Here I think again, the actual software available and the configuration can make a huge difference.
For example, if you truly feel that water-cooler meetings are critical, you can build that into your at-home software setup and just make it mandatory. There are a lot of ways you could do that. It could literally be chat rooms named "water-cooler1" and "water-cooler2" and then you put some piece of required information like an expense code in there so people have to enter.
Or there are various types of software with virtual spaces, such as top-down maps where you see the location of your co-workers and can even hear their conversations if your avatar is close by. There are also 3d world's, both with a screen interface and a virtual reality interface.
I think especially as VR and AR headsets get more comfortable and usable over the next few years, that is really going to be able to compete with physical presence. For example, they are starting to track eye movements. That's going to make it possible to actually communicate using your eyes in VR.
Point being that there is a big spectrum in types or level of presence that is about the type of software and hardware configuration (and culture/rules) as much as it is about actual physical location.
Weird proxy for "normal"
Question: What month do you think you'll be back in the office, if you had to guess?
It's the economy, stupid!
(Is the quiet part some are not saying out loud)
(Is the quiet part some are not saying out loud)
Property portfolios = people paying your pension one day.
You cant play cubicle chess if you don’t have any pawns.
Easy. Lots of people are skating, doing little.
Because hierarchy is less visible.
I just want to WFH without pants.
I live in a studio apartment with high rent, with a half mile walk from my office. I did this on purpose so I wouldn’t have to commute. Now I am spending high rent for a small space. My company keeps stating that we will have to return to the office in some unknown “near future”, otherwise I would plan on going full WFH and relocating to a larger home somewhere cheaper and more rural. But I’m stuck.
I also miss my dedicated workspace, and I miss being able to separate work and home life easily by going no contact after 5PM without management thinking that means I am a bad employee.
But most of all, I miss being able to let my bosses "micromanage" me in a way that didn't disrupt me. “Office Politics” has changed at my company in a way that is taking up a lot more of my productive time than it used to, and I hate it.
Before the Great WFH of 2020, my boss would walk by my cubicle or speak to me in person regularly. Short conversations, didn't ever bother me, and allowed me to focus on work. Made him feel busy and made him feel I was busy. Ultimately I was able to spend less time "appearing busy" and more on actually getting work done.
Since management at my company doesn't know how to actually track real work output, they have always used proxies like "how long does this person stay at the office?", "Are they still in their cubicle when I am leaving?", "When I walk by their cubicle do they have their IDE open doing 'coding stuff'" etc. etc.
I’ve always been decently performant at code production. So all I had to do was stay on my coding tasks for a few hours each day, have an IDE always open on at least one of my monitors and wait til exactly 5:01 PM every day before I left as that was when my boss went home. I ended up getting stuff done quick, got to avoid most meetings, and could screw around the rest of the day if I wanted. Personal projects, internet surfing, etc.
Great reviews from management. I would prefer an actual meritocratic standard based on actual work done, but that really has never been the case at any of the companies I have ever worked at so far in my career as a software engineer, so I’m used to it at this point.
But now that we are all WFH, they really don't seem to know what to do. They don't know how much work anyone is, or isn't doing, instead daily standups have changed from 10 minute short succinct updates to “how aggressively and for how long can you technobabble bullshit about your coding tasks you did yesterday” turning these stand ups into at least an hour or more, and now I have to also technobabble bullshit or management will think I’m slacking.
Even more so than before, they now seem to think pointless emails and multi-hour zoom meetings are the true marker of productivity. I hate this. I don't want to have to spend hours per day making up bullshit technobabble emails and sitting in on multi-hour long zoom meetings talking about unrelated boring bullshit. I just want to be able to focus on getting my coding tasks done for the day. Some of the lowest performers on my team love it though, because they are great at meetings, scheduling meetings, and making themselves feel important with pointless technical presentations during these meetings. Not to mention we are expected to have our webcams on at all times during these meetings, so I can’t even “pretend” to be present while I go make myself tea or something.
The barrier to entry for meetings has lowered. Before, scheduling a meeting in the office room down the hall and giving a presentation on why we all should add “bureaucratic coding standard addition xyz” was both too scary and too much work. Now, its “why not, management will think I am showing leadership skills!”.
Thanks guys, I love more poorly managed bureaucracy. Test driven development might be good if someone actually managed it and maintained standard during code reviews, but now everyone just creates shitty unit tests to meet the 70% code coverage requirement we are told to meet because the literal lowest performer on my team scheduled multi hour meetings with management on why we should all follow tde and convinced them it was a good idea.
I also miss my dedicated workspace, and I miss being able to separate work and home life easily by going no contact after 5PM without management thinking that means I am a bad employee.
But most of all, I miss being able to let my bosses "micromanage" me in a way that didn't disrupt me. “Office Politics” has changed at my company in a way that is taking up a lot more of my productive time than it used to, and I hate it.
Before the Great WFH of 2020, my boss would walk by my cubicle or speak to me in person regularly. Short conversations, didn't ever bother me, and allowed me to focus on work. Made him feel busy and made him feel I was busy. Ultimately I was able to spend less time "appearing busy" and more on actually getting work done.
Since management at my company doesn't know how to actually track real work output, they have always used proxies like "how long does this person stay at the office?", "Are they still in their cubicle when I am leaving?", "When I walk by their cubicle do they have their IDE open doing 'coding stuff'" etc. etc.
I’ve always been decently performant at code production. So all I had to do was stay on my coding tasks for a few hours each day, have an IDE always open on at least one of my monitors and wait til exactly 5:01 PM every day before I left as that was when my boss went home. I ended up getting stuff done quick, got to avoid most meetings, and could screw around the rest of the day if I wanted. Personal projects, internet surfing, etc.
Great reviews from management. I would prefer an actual meritocratic standard based on actual work done, but that really has never been the case at any of the companies I have ever worked at so far in my career as a software engineer, so I’m used to it at this point.
But now that we are all WFH, they really don't seem to know what to do. They don't know how much work anyone is, or isn't doing, instead daily standups have changed from 10 minute short succinct updates to “how aggressively and for how long can you technobabble bullshit about your coding tasks you did yesterday” turning these stand ups into at least an hour or more, and now I have to also technobabble bullshit or management will think I’m slacking.
Even more so than before, they now seem to think pointless emails and multi-hour zoom meetings are the true marker of productivity. I hate this. I don't want to have to spend hours per day making up bullshit technobabble emails and sitting in on multi-hour long zoom meetings talking about unrelated boring bullshit. I just want to be able to focus on getting my coding tasks done for the day. Some of the lowest performers on my team love it though, because they are great at meetings, scheduling meetings, and making themselves feel important with pointless technical presentations during these meetings. Not to mention we are expected to have our webcams on at all times during these meetings, so I can’t even “pretend” to be present while I go make myself tea or something.
The barrier to entry for meetings has lowered. Before, scheduling a meeting in the office room down the hall and giving a presentation on why we all should add “bureaucratic coding standard addition xyz” was both too scary and too much work. Now, its “why not, management will think I am showing leadership skills!”.
Thanks guys, I love more poorly managed bureaucracy. Test driven development might be good if someone actually managed it and maintained standard during code reviews, but now everyone just creates shitty unit tests to meet the 70% code coverage requirement we are told to meet because the literal lowest performer on my team scheduled multi hour meetings with management on why we should all follow tde and convinced them it was a good idea.
1. Real estate interests are extremely wealthy and powerful in nearly all nations, and in every OECD nation. Commercial real estate especially so. Take a look at the wealthiest individuals in a nation, and a big chunk of them are connected to real estate. It is realistic instead of cynical to expect these interests to hammer for a return to status quo ante, regardless of the actual benefits to those who must follow such diktats.
2. In the US at least in my experience and from observing my clients' organizations, after two decades of relentless offshoring, for high-wage roles we're nearly scraping the bottom third percentile of the talent barrel globally for available replacements for on-shore talent, without accreting significant technical, organizational, support, maintenance, goodwill, and other types of intangible debt that CxO's increasingly recognize as burdensome friction to rapid innovation. Gains to be had offshoring are measured in inches and not yards now, with lots of attention-to-detail work to achieve it; the gains exist, but are just as hard to accomplish anywhere in the world, domestic or offshore. Just recently here on HN we were discussing management/promotion engineering/demotion, with a significant sidebar conversation on hybrid tech lead roles; there aren't that many people wired for that kind of balanced hybrid, and throw that on top of the complexities we normally deal with, and it is no wonder it is hard to recruit no matter where you look in the world.
3. Lots of "I need that separation" reports are very familiar to those who have been doing remote work for a decade or more. It takes anywhere from a year to multiple years to work out accommodations and find your groove when remote working. Finding that separation is part of it. Some people never adjust to it, and that's okay.
4. We have plausibly reached beyond the observer effect-type improvements in productivity [1] from the remote work change in habits, so this mass social experiment shows there is something substantive to remote work compared to traditional office work.
5. We have not yet reached critical mass on the time everyone has been working from home to internalize the effects of their new normal. Remote workers who have successfully made the switch have reported this takes between 6-18 months typically. This takes different forms in people. For some an intense loneliness sets in, others depression, others are happier, others find more energy. This is the Remote Work Great Filter.
6. We flipped the switch and paused a system that has taken literally centuries of refinement upon office work, and started a remote equivalent under emergency conditions from scratch in many instances with (from initial indications) no productivity hit, and some even claiming a small productivity increase. What kinds of productivity increases lie behind further remote work refinement?
7. A "grey system" of hybridized remote and on-prem office presence can unlock interesting benefits. As expensive as offices are, the pandemic response shows that they aren't so unbearably expensive that companies would wholesale leap at the slightest opportunity to unload them. This might change with the depression barreling down upon us, but for now, there is the opportunity (and perhaps even requirement) to use long-term commercial lease agreements (or even more long-term capex real estate purchases) to double or triple the amount of space in company offices. A soft turn away from the open office plan.
8. As flawed as the response was in the US, a lesson I drew from it is the qualitative change in information infrastructure since only a couple decades ago enabled private entities everywhere (not just the US) to rapidly route around many kinds of damage in many, adaptive, different ways. Very rapid, Net-based, decentralized, decoupled decision-making like depicted in some futurist visions is already here in a proto-form.
A lot of the response depends upon organizational culture and individual psychosocial makeup. I agree with the author, a hybrid grey response seems the most realistic. Remote work has the potential out of this experience to go from a marginal recruiting tool to an integral part of capex and opex plans.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect
2. In the US at least in my experience and from observing my clients' organizations, after two decades of relentless offshoring, for high-wage roles we're nearly scraping the bottom third percentile of the talent barrel globally for available replacements for on-shore talent, without accreting significant technical, organizational, support, maintenance, goodwill, and other types of intangible debt that CxO's increasingly recognize as burdensome friction to rapid innovation. Gains to be had offshoring are measured in inches and not yards now, with lots of attention-to-detail work to achieve it; the gains exist, but are just as hard to accomplish anywhere in the world, domestic or offshore. Just recently here on HN we were discussing management/promotion engineering/demotion, with a significant sidebar conversation on hybrid tech lead roles; there aren't that many people wired for that kind of balanced hybrid, and throw that on top of the complexities we normally deal with, and it is no wonder it is hard to recruit no matter where you look in the world.
3. Lots of "I need that separation" reports are very familiar to those who have been doing remote work for a decade or more. It takes anywhere from a year to multiple years to work out accommodations and find your groove when remote working. Finding that separation is part of it. Some people never adjust to it, and that's okay.
4. We have plausibly reached beyond the observer effect-type improvements in productivity [1] from the remote work change in habits, so this mass social experiment shows there is something substantive to remote work compared to traditional office work.
5. We have not yet reached critical mass on the time everyone has been working from home to internalize the effects of their new normal. Remote workers who have successfully made the switch have reported this takes between 6-18 months typically. This takes different forms in people. For some an intense loneliness sets in, others depression, others are happier, others find more energy. This is the Remote Work Great Filter.
6. We flipped the switch and paused a system that has taken literally centuries of refinement upon office work, and started a remote equivalent under emergency conditions from scratch in many instances with (from initial indications) no productivity hit, and some even claiming a small productivity increase. What kinds of productivity increases lie behind further remote work refinement?
7. A "grey system" of hybridized remote and on-prem office presence can unlock interesting benefits. As expensive as offices are, the pandemic response shows that they aren't so unbearably expensive that companies would wholesale leap at the slightest opportunity to unload them. This might change with the depression barreling down upon us, but for now, there is the opportunity (and perhaps even requirement) to use long-term commercial lease agreements (or even more long-term capex real estate purchases) to double or triple the amount of space in company offices. A soft turn away from the open office plan.
8. As flawed as the response was in the US, a lesson I drew from it is the qualitative change in information infrastructure since only a couple decades ago enabled private entities everywhere (not just the US) to rapidly route around many kinds of damage in many, adaptive, different ways. Very rapid, Net-based, decentralized, decoupled decision-making like depicted in some futurist visions is already here in a proto-form.
A lot of the response depends upon organizational culture and individual psychosocial makeup. I agree with the author, a hybrid grey response seems the most realistic. Remote work has the potential out of this experience to go from a marginal recruiting tool to an integral part of capex and opex plans.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect
As several others have noted, commercial real estate interests -- landlords, building management and services companies, but most especially banks and finance companies with a toe in the $2.5 trillion office market, a sizeable fraction of the toal $14--17 trillion+ commercial property market (https://www.reit.com/data-research/research/nareit-research/...), and all the interrelated securities backed by or tied to it --- have a profound interest here. Leasing volume fell by over 50% per some reports, which is of course huge.
You'll find articles largely in the business and financial press, e.g.,
"Coronavirus set to usher in big changes at U.S. offices" https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-of...
"Pandemic exposes ‘severe stress’ in commercial property financing" https://www.ft.com/content/e4b2302b-76c5-494a-8560-e6d24de93...
"Suburban Philly offices feel the brunt of COVID-19’s economic toll" https://www.inquirer.com/business/suburban-office-distressed...
"COVID-19 and real estate: How the coronavirus is impacting the AEC industry" https://www.bdcnetwork.com/covid-19-and-real-estate-how-coro...
"United States Office Outlook – Q2 2020" https://www.us.jll.com/en/trends-and-insights/research/offic...
Contrast the outlook as of October 2019: "base fundamentals indicate that the US CRE market remains on a strong footing."
Deloitte: "2020 commercial real estate outlook" https://www2.deloitte.com/us/en/insights/industry/financial-...
That's not to say that sandwich shops and individual workers and managers don't have concerrns, but their voices are far more relatable and telegenic than faceless megabanks. Even genuine and spontaneous statements can be repeated and amplified by other interests.
You'll find articles largely in the business and financial press, e.g.,
"Coronavirus set to usher in big changes at U.S. offices" https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-of...
"Pandemic exposes ‘severe stress’ in commercial property financing" https://www.ft.com/content/e4b2302b-76c5-494a-8560-e6d24de93...
"Suburban Philly offices feel the brunt of COVID-19’s economic toll" https://www.inquirer.com/business/suburban-office-distressed...
"COVID-19 and real estate: How the coronavirus is impacting the AEC industry" https://www.bdcnetwork.com/covid-19-and-real-estate-how-coro...
"United States Office Outlook – Q2 2020" https://www.us.jll.com/en/trends-and-insights/research/offic...
Contrast the outlook as of October 2019: "base fundamentals indicate that the US CRE market remains on a strong footing."
Deloitte: "2020 commercial real estate outlook" https://www2.deloitte.com/us/en/insights/industry/financial-...
That's not to say that sandwich shops and individual workers and managers don't have concerrns, but their voices are far more relatable and telegenic than faceless megabanks. Even genuine and spontaneous statements can be repeated and amplified by other interests.
Control.
I feel like most people who want to go back to working in an office, don’t really need an office per se — in the sense of needing to rent out a unit or floor of a building for their company to work out of.
Most of the advantages that individual knowledge-workers attain from an office — work-life separation, and meeting rooms in which to come together with others for a scheduled semi-private conversation — already have a relevant institution that will provide those to almost anyone on Earth, free of charge: the public library. Everyone[1] sitting at the tables in a public library is being productive. And almost all modern libraries have bookable meeting rooms as a free service!
[1] If your library is full of noisy people, find a different one. This mostly only happens to the one library per city nearest to the projects. I suggest a public library near a college; or, for that matter, a University library, if it’s public-access.
Yes, there’s also coffee shops, but those only solve work-life separation. Most coffee shops don’t offer bookable spaces for private meetings. I guess you could combine coffee shops with booths at restaurants, but that gets expensive quickly. Libraries are free! And, unlike the coffee shop where sitting there all day with your laptop will annoy the employees, being productive all day in a library is the point, and you have every right to ask the library employees to shush anyone interfering with your productivity, because productivity is what they want the library environment to foster.
——————
Who doesn't think libraries are a valid substitute for offices?
• Sales people and call-center workers, obviously. Anyone who needs to make phone calls all day. But these people were never really suited to ordinary office space, either. They need sound-proofed rooms/booths, really. You can build those anywhere — podcasters and journalists are currently building these at home. You really do need a separate space for this, though, and that might not be tenable in a small bachelor apartment. I have a feeling we might see the rise of specialty coworking spaces consisting of floors of small, rentable recording-booth rooms. (Some fancier public libraries have these too — again, for free.)
• Managers. Specifically, middle-managers. In-person, off-the-record conversations are how you "build your team", i.e. how you build loyalty to yourself and ensure that your team-members are working for you, rather than for the company, such that you can later take credit for their achievements and they won't call you out for it. This role is dying, and most of the visible backlash is likely coming from here. It's like the death throes of aristocracy when centralized government rises to replace it. Good riddance, I say. (Team-allocated executive assistants can perform the project-management tasks of a manager just as well, without also becoming feudal lords. These don't mind remote work at all, because they're fine with everything they say happening on-the-record on Slack/email/etc.)
Most of the advantages that individual knowledge-workers attain from an office — work-life separation, and meeting rooms in which to come together with others for a scheduled semi-private conversation — already have a relevant institution that will provide those to almost anyone on Earth, free of charge: the public library. Everyone[1] sitting at the tables in a public library is being productive. And almost all modern libraries have bookable meeting rooms as a free service!
[1] If your library is full of noisy people, find a different one. This mostly only happens to the one library per city nearest to the projects. I suggest a public library near a college; or, for that matter, a University library, if it’s public-access.
Yes, there’s also coffee shops, but those only solve work-life separation. Most coffee shops don’t offer bookable spaces for private meetings. I guess you could combine coffee shops with booths at restaurants, but that gets expensive quickly. Libraries are free! And, unlike the coffee shop where sitting there all day with your laptop will annoy the employees, being productive all day in a library is the point, and you have every right to ask the library employees to shush anyone interfering with your productivity, because productivity is what they want the library environment to foster.
——————
Who doesn't think libraries are a valid substitute for offices?
• Sales people and call-center workers, obviously. Anyone who needs to make phone calls all day. But these people were never really suited to ordinary office space, either. They need sound-proofed rooms/booths, really. You can build those anywhere — podcasters and journalists are currently building these at home. You really do need a separate space for this, though, and that might not be tenable in a small bachelor apartment. I have a feeling we might see the rise of specialty coworking spaces consisting of floors of small, rentable recording-booth rooms. (Some fancier public libraries have these too — again, for free.)
• Managers. Specifically, middle-managers. In-person, off-the-record conversations are how you "build your team", i.e. how you build loyalty to yourself and ensure that your team-members are working for you, rather than for the company, such that you can later take credit for their achievements and they won't call you out for it. This role is dying, and most of the visible backlash is likely coming from here. It's like the death throes of aristocracy when centralized government rises to replace it. Good riddance, I say. (Team-allocated executive assistants can perform the project-management tasks of a manager just as well, without also becoming feudal lords. These don't mind remote work at all, because they're fine with everything they say happening on-the-record on Slack/email/etc.)
>Who doesn't think libraries are a valid substitute for offices?
Anyone who enjoys having a personalized ergonomic workspace that fits their needs. Working on a laptop 8 hours a day is going to be terrible for your body long term.
>without also becoming feudal lords.
You really underestimate what people given power, implicit or explicit, can do with it. Once you're able to tell people what work they should do, you have a lot of power to wield as you wish.
Anyone who enjoys having a personalized ergonomic workspace that fits their needs. Working on a laptop 8 hours a day is going to be terrible for your body long term.
>without also becoming feudal lords.
You really underestimate what people given power, implicit or explicit, can do with it. Once you're able to tell people what work they should do, you have a lot of power to wield as you wish.
> Working on a laptop 8 hours a day is going to be terrible for your body long term.
Libraries have computer workstations with proper ergonomics. Bring your laptop and a long HDMI cable. Push the workstation’s keyboard and mouse back. Plug your laptop into the monitor with the HDMI cable, then set the laptop down where the workstation’s keyboard was. Switch the input on the monitor to your laptop. (Ignore the laptop’s screen; don’t try to use it as a secondary display. It’s too low; you’ll hurt your neck.)
Since you’re not unplugging anything from the workstation, you won’t even have to ask permission from the library IT staff first to do this. It’s just like using a USB stick.
Alternately, bring one of those HDMI “compute sticks” and your own Bluetooth keyboard and mouse paired to it. You won’t get the same level of compute power that you’d get from your laptop, but you will get slightly better input ergonomics. Fine if your work is cloud-based.
Alternately, sign up for (or get your company to sign up for) a cloud Desktop-as-a-Service service, e.g. Amazon WorkSpaces. Then VNC/RDP into your workstation from any old library computer. Even the 10-year-old Dells with Celerons are powerful enough to support VNC streaming; and, given that you’re at a public library, relying on the wired Internet means you avoid the bottleneck of the single overloaded wi-fi AP everyone else is contending over.
Certainly, these workstations aren’t personalized; but they won’t kill your back/neck.
> Once you're able to tell people what work they should do, you have a lot of power to wield as you wish.
The simple difference between a manager and an executive assistant is that the manager hires the team, but the team hires the executive assistant.
It’s the same as the difference between monarchy and democracy: subjects live at the sufferance of their monarch, but a president commands at the sufferance of their people. If you can fire your boss, they’re not really your boss.
Libraries have computer workstations with proper ergonomics. Bring your laptop and a long HDMI cable. Push the workstation’s keyboard and mouse back. Plug your laptop into the monitor with the HDMI cable, then set the laptop down where the workstation’s keyboard was. Switch the input on the monitor to your laptop. (Ignore the laptop’s screen; don’t try to use it as a secondary display. It’s too low; you’ll hurt your neck.)
Since you’re not unplugging anything from the workstation, you won’t even have to ask permission from the library IT staff first to do this. It’s just like using a USB stick.
Alternately, bring one of those HDMI “compute sticks” and your own Bluetooth keyboard and mouse paired to it. You won’t get the same level of compute power that you’d get from your laptop, but you will get slightly better input ergonomics. Fine if your work is cloud-based.
Alternately, sign up for (or get your company to sign up for) a cloud Desktop-as-a-Service service, e.g. Amazon WorkSpaces. Then VNC/RDP into your workstation from any old library computer. Even the 10-year-old Dells with Celerons are powerful enough to support VNC streaming; and, given that you’re at a public library, relying on the wired Internet means you avoid the bottleneck of the single overloaded wi-fi AP everyone else is contending over.
Certainly, these workstations aren’t personalized; but they won’t kill your back/neck.
> Once you're able to tell people what work they should do, you have a lot of power to wield as you wish.
The simple difference between a manager and an executive assistant is that the manager hires the team, but the team hires the executive assistant.
It’s the same as the difference between monarchy and democracy: subjects live at the sufferance of their monarch, but a president commands at the sufferance of their people. If you can fire your boss, they’re not really your boss.
>but the team hires the executive assistant.
Some manager up the hierarchy hires the executive assistant, the team simply has input into the process. I suspect the input into the firing will quickly go down to 0 if the person who actually has firing power likes the EA. If the team has direct firing power then you're going to get some lovely politics going on between everyone like giving choice work to half the team all the time to keep them on your side.
>but a president commands at the sufferance of their people.
Technically, they only need 50% of the people at best.
edit: And since the EA isn't actually accountable for productivity (how can they be, they can't fire the "unproductive" team members after all) they can play even more political games since they're less in the line of fire for backlash.
Some manager up the hierarchy hires the executive assistant, the team simply has input into the process. I suspect the input into the firing will quickly go down to 0 if the person who actually has firing power likes the EA. If the team has direct firing power then you're going to get some lovely politics going on between everyone like giving choice work to half the team all the time to keep them on your side.
>but a president commands at the sufferance of their people.
Technically, they only need 50% of the people at best.
edit: And since the EA isn't actually accountable for productivity (how can they be, they can't fire the "unproductive" team members after all) they can play even more political games since they're less in the line of fire for backlash.
> Some manager up the hierarchy hires the executive assistant.
My post assumed team autonomy, where each team has an entirely separate hiring pipeline. Think “startup that’s recently been acquired by a big company, but hasn’t yet been absorbed into it.” I think Amazon’s AWS service teams are also like this. Tiny little independent business units.
But really, you don’t need that; you could still have a mostly-hierarchical organizational structure, but just take hiring/firing away from the managers at every level. with no managers making hiring decisions at any level. You’d give all hiring/firing power, instead, to teams; or rather, to each team’s hiring subcommittee (which would be a temporary thing, elected anew from the team members each time hiring/firing must be done.)
You can still have traditional managers in such an org, but their main purpose at that point (if the EA duties are being played by an actual EA) would be to serve as the contact point for a team — the “API” that the rest of the org uses to access the team members and their labor. So, essentially, a talent agent.
> edit: And since the EA isn't actually accountable for productivity
Sure they are. Just because something may fail for reasons entirely out of your control, doesn’t mean you’re not usually, partially in control. A wilderness guide can still be held accountable for the safety of those in their charge, even if sometimes there’s just suddenly an angry lion.
The point of the EA—like the point of an effective manager—would be to (attempt to) be a multiplier for the team’s aggregate productivity, usually by subtly enabling knowledge-sharing and communication, while deflecting outward pressure.
As such, a measure of the EA’s effectiveness, is the same as a measure the team’s aggregate productivity, against a pre-existing baseline measurement of the team’s aggregate productivity with no EA/manager.
I would guess that it’s very likely that the average EA/manager has neutral or negative impact on aggregate team productivity. Which makes sense; an EA/manager needs to have (much) higher coordination skills than the average human being, in order for their inserting-themselves into coordination problems to be worth the overhead it introduces.
> Technically, they only need 50% of the people at best.
If you like — and this works especially well when done remotely — you can set up your EA/manager as a (team-specific, unlimited-scope) helpdesk, where team members “file tickets” with the EA to do things for them; and where the EA/manager can also file tickets themselves “on behalf of” someone, when they notice something going subtly wrong and are trying to help without being explicitly asked to do so.
Probably you could do this in a streamlined, ChatOps way, where any new team-workspace message thread with the EA/manager is automatically a new ticket.
Then, you can throw industry-standard IT-helpdesk ticket-resolution performance metrics at the tickets the EA/manager is creating+resolving.
This won’t tell you anything about aggregate productivity, but it will tell you — in a very legible, statistical way — whether the EA/manager is preferentially solving problems for only a subset of team members. (Don’t hook anything automated up to that fact; you need manual review, because it might be the team member that’s giving the EA stupid asks that they’re rightfully ignoring.)
My post assumed team autonomy, where each team has an entirely separate hiring pipeline. Think “startup that’s recently been acquired by a big company, but hasn’t yet been absorbed into it.” I think Amazon’s AWS service teams are also like this. Tiny little independent business units.
But really, you don’t need that; you could still have a mostly-hierarchical organizational structure, but just take hiring/firing away from the managers at every level. with no managers making hiring decisions at any level. You’d give all hiring/firing power, instead, to teams; or rather, to each team’s hiring subcommittee (which would be a temporary thing, elected anew from the team members each time hiring/firing must be done.)
You can still have traditional managers in such an org, but their main purpose at that point (if the EA duties are being played by an actual EA) would be to serve as the contact point for a team — the “API” that the rest of the org uses to access the team members and their labor. So, essentially, a talent agent.
> edit: And since the EA isn't actually accountable for productivity
Sure they are. Just because something may fail for reasons entirely out of your control, doesn’t mean you’re not usually, partially in control. A wilderness guide can still be held accountable for the safety of those in their charge, even if sometimes there’s just suddenly an angry lion.
The point of the EA—like the point of an effective manager—would be to (attempt to) be a multiplier for the team’s aggregate productivity, usually by subtly enabling knowledge-sharing and communication, while deflecting outward pressure.
As such, a measure of the EA’s effectiveness, is the same as a measure the team’s aggregate productivity, against a pre-existing baseline measurement of the team’s aggregate productivity with no EA/manager.
I would guess that it’s very likely that the average EA/manager has neutral or negative impact on aggregate team productivity. Which makes sense; an EA/manager needs to have (much) higher coordination skills than the average human being, in order for their inserting-themselves into coordination problems to be worth the overhead it introduces.
> Technically, they only need 50% of the people at best.
If you like — and this works especially well when done remotely — you can set up your EA/manager as a (team-specific, unlimited-scope) helpdesk, where team members “file tickets” with the EA to do things for them; and where the EA/manager can also file tickets themselves “on behalf of” someone, when they notice something going subtly wrong and are trying to help without being explicitly asked to do so.
Probably you could do this in a streamlined, ChatOps way, where any new team-workspace message thread with the EA/manager is automatically a new ticket.
Then, you can throw industry-standard IT-helpdesk ticket-resolution performance metrics at the tickets the EA/manager is creating+resolving.
This won’t tell you anything about aggregate productivity, but it will tell you — in a very legible, statistical way — whether the EA/manager is preferentially solving problems for only a subset of team members. (Don’t hook anything automated up to that fact; you need manual review, because it might be the team member that’s giving the EA stupid asks that they’re rightfully ignoring.)
One thing is clear, you can't have it both ways: Earn a SV salary without having SV living expenses. Someone with lower living expenses will do your job for less, even if it's not someone from outside the country.
Let's be honest, if there's no second wave that's stronger than the first wave during winter, there's no rational reason to not go "back to normal".
All the data we have now shows that even unmitigated COVID-19 spread is not dramatically worse than a strong flu season, with the difference that COVID-19 kills far less younger and otherwise healthy people.
Even the argument that "we have a Influenza vaccine!" doesn't really cut it, because those vaccines are only 50% effective on average.
Of course, there are plenty of irrational reasons not to go "back to normal". I wouldn't be surprised if these were to prevail.
Governments around the world have just been handed powers they never knew they had, and I'm not talking about the power to do lockdowns.
I'm talking about the peoples of the free world demonstrating that they can easily be scared into compliance, that they will follow the dominant narrative, that they're ready to denounce their neighbors for infractions of rules "for the common good" - anything you would expect in a totalitarian regime works just as well in liberal democracies.
All the data we have now shows that even unmitigated COVID-19 spread is not dramatically worse than a strong flu season, with the difference that COVID-19 kills far less younger and otherwise healthy people.
Even the argument that "we have a Influenza vaccine!" doesn't really cut it, because those vaccines are only 50% effective on average.
Of course, there are plenty of irrational reasons not to go "back to normal". I wouldn't be surprised if these were to prevail.
Governments around the world have just been handed powers they never knew they had, and I'm not talking about the power to do lockdowns.
I'm talking about the peoples of the free world demonstrating that they can easily be scared into compliance, that they will follow the dominant narrative, that they're ready to denounce their neighbors for infractions of rules "for the common good" - anything you would expect in a totalitarian regime works just as well in liberal democracies.
Some people have long commutes and wfh is great
Others have small, expensive apartments they paid for shorter commutes and it's suffocating 40-50 hours a week
Some people live in palaces and offices are a step down in comfort
Some people are happy with the online interactions
Some people are dissatisfied with the online interactions and prefer to talk to humans and not text strings from humans they can't see or hear
Some people want to work from home some of the time, and go to the office some of the time, and they've wanted that before the apocalypse occurred (puts hand up)
Cities are nervous that business districts are devastated since no one buys coffee, lunches or walks home and steps into a shoe store or tailor, or to a bar for drinks with colleagues.
But like much else in our present world, things are presented in black and white, emotive ways.