What to Say When You're Asked for Your Salary History(cushychicken.github.io)
cushychicken.github.io
What to Say When You're Asked for Your Salary History
http://cushychicken.github.io/what-to-say-when-asked-salary-history/
129 comments
I am wondering if it is a good idea to say outright that you want to maximize your income, and disclosing previous salary works counter to that goal. At the end of the day there's nothing surprising about such statement.
I think it's fine to politely say something like "I'd prefer not to share that information at this point in the process".
everyone understands that the applicant wants to maximize their salary, but HR folks are humans too. if you say something they perceive as rude, they will probably make a choice that's suboptimal for you and the company.
everyone understands that the applicant wants to maximize their salary, but HR folks are humans too. if you say something they perceive as rude, they will probably make a choice that's suboptimal for you and the company.
I always like to think of what the reaction would be if you asked in reverse and use that as a guide e.g. what's the salary history for the company employees currently in the role you're applying for?
Pretty sure you wouldn't get an answer so why should you feel bad for not answering?
I hate these back-and-forths too where both sides know the game being played but have to be coy about it for no good reason. I'd prefer to just say you're not prepared to share that information and if they pushed be upfront that everyone knows in salary negotiation you shouldn't share this and it's irrelevant if you happened to be underpaid before.
Pretty sure you wouldn't get an answer so why should you feel bad for not answering?
I hate these back-and-forths too where both sides know the game being played but have to be coy about it for no good reason. I'd prefer to just say you're not prepared to share that information and if they pushed be upfront that everyone knows in salary negotiation you shouldn't share this and it's irrelevant if you happened to be underpaid before.
> what's the salary history for the company employees currently in the role you're applying for?
This would probably cause someone's head to explode.
This would probably cause someone's head to explode.
California now requires that companies reveal the salary range if asked.
And it's illegal in California to seek a candidate's salary history or use it to determine their pay.
Connecticut as well, at least for asking you or getting your salary history from a 3rd party. Not sure that our law addresses using it to determine pay if you volunteer the info yourself.
This is pretty great! I always thought that individuals, being, well... individuals, have a systemic disadvantage in these situations and that that should change. Good on CA for trying this, let's hope it works out. :)
Yeah, if any of my friends in my field or colleagues ask me what I'm making, I have no problems telling them to help with this system disadvantage.
We should normalize being OK with telling our colleagues what we make. Our HR dept. might tell us it is private, but that's only to help the employer keep the information edge in negotiations.
We should normalize being OK with telling our colleagues what we make. Our HR dept. might tell us it is private, but that's only to help the employer keep the information edge in negotiations.
> Our HR dept. might tell us it is private
And a hefty fine for doing just that was the best I could come up with. Glad someone else had a better idea that works in a less confrontational way. When I ask a prospective employer for a range and they don't simply answer frankly, I know to walk away before landing myself in a toxic environment. Of course, that assumes the privilege of being able to walk away...
And a hefty fine for doing just that was the best I could come up with. Glad someone else had a better idea that works in a less confrontational way. When I ask a prospective employer for a range and they don't simply answer frankly, I know to walk away before landing myself in a toxic environment. Of course, that assumes the privilege of being able to walk away...
It has been my experience that people from some countries share compensation info with their peers from the same country, and people from some other countries don’t share it at all. And some are in the middle: tell friends, don’t tell coworkers.
Seems like the first set of countries should have a negotiating advantage. Not sure if it does but it ought to.
So, I think that norm already exists, but not among all groups.
Seems like the first set of countries should have a negotiating advantage. Not sure if it does but it ought to.
So, I think that norm already exists, but not among all groups.
Do you have a source for that? I'd actually never heard this before and my google-fu is poor today.
> Assembly Bill 168 prohibits California employers from asking about an applicant’s prior salary. If an applicant asks, employers are also required to provide a pay range for the job. [0]
Google-fu tip: I just submitted that user's full comment to google, and this was the top result. It works frequently.
The bill's relevant text [1]:
> (c) An employer, upon reasonable request, shall provide the pay scale for a position to an applicant applying for employment.
[0] https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/labor/discrimination/salary-his....
[1] https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...
Google-fu tip: I just submitted that user's full comment to google, and this was the top result. It works frequently.
The bill's relevant text [1]:
> (c) An employer, upon reasonable request, shall provide the pay scale for a position to an applicant applying for employment.
[0] https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/labor/discrimination/salary-his....
[1] https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...
I wonder if that's true in MA as well. I know they passed a similar ban on asking salary history.
I actually asked for and received the salary midpoint for a promotion I was offered before deciding to accept. HR, in most cases, should be willing to share salary ranges for positions.
It's because nobody in the industry wants to acknowledge that there's a power imbalance. You really might need a job, but guess what? Your interviewer already has one.
> You really might need a job, but guess what? Your interviewer already has one.
Supposedly, or at least so I keep hearing, there is a talent shortage (justifying things like H-1B). If that's the case, the power imbalance between employer and potential employee ought to run the other direction (the interviewer is irrelevant, as they are merely an agent of the employer.)
Supposedly, or at least so I keep hearing, there is a talent shortage (justifying things like H-1B). If that's the case, the power imbalance between employer and potential employee ought to run the other direction (the interviewer is irrelevant, as they are merely an agent of the employer.)
Yes, in the tech industry there is a power imbalance - but in the favor of the employee!
Perhaps the interviewer could invert a binary tree on the whiteboard, once you are done with your brain teaser?
I have had luck in the past just expressing what I need, and want.
Getting peoples attention generally requires meeting needs as a minimum. Wants are nice to have, and if they are reasonably funded, can get a persons full attention.
Let the other party consider it from there.
I have always been perfectly frank and cordial about it. The way I see it, being able to have an honest discussion about these things means the beginning of a great work relationship.
Usually, that all results in a how we get there discussion. Put costs, risks, all of it on the table.
Getting peoples attention generally requires meeting needs as a minimum. Wants are nice to have, and if they are reasonably funded, can get a persons full attention.
Let the other party consider it from there.
I have always been perfectly frank and cordial about it. The way I see it, being able to have an honest discussion about these things means the beginning of a great work relationship.
Usually, that all results in a how we get there discussion. Put costs, risks, all of it on the table.
That is my approach as well, in many things in life - with one caveat that depending on size of company, it may not have anything to do with a working relationship. In a small company, interviewing with your potential boss, I think being upfront and honest is worthwhile and a good litmus to see how they respond to that.
In a very large company where you are negotiating with a dedicated HR recruiter, it's a very different process. They will never ever talk to you again after you sign on the dotted line, and have a very different, very narrow set of parameters to work within - and may indeed have expectations that go with that focused role: i.e. a team lead would expect you to be upfront and productive; but a car salesperson or a real estate salesperson would expect you to haggle and negotiate. Not saying I like that, or that I enjoy the prospect or process, but it benefits to be cognizant of the nature of process and expectations.
In a very large company where you are negotiating with a dedicated HR recruiter, it's a very different process. They will never ever talk to you again after you sign on the dotted line, and have a very different, very narrow set of parameters to work within - and may indeed have expectations that go with that focused role: i.e. a team lead would expect you to be upfront and productive; but a car salesperson or a real estate salesperson would expect you to haggle and negotiate. Not saying I like that, or that I enjoy the prospect or process, but it benefits to be cognizant of the nature of process and expectations.
Oh I agree completely.
Up front info is worth gold. If I know it is one of the scenarios you mentioned, or haggling is expected, game on!
I am fine with a haggle. Lots of ways to see value. Great discussion!
In your narrow scenario, I would compute needs plus reasonable wants, then add on compensation for any draconian policy and drop a number. Hit or miss. Not my problem, unless it is.
If it is my problem? Get a deal, keep life funded and look for better as ones risk and cost profile permits.
One qualifier is whether the position has a sales or biz dev component. Deffo haggle. Expected. There is a need to sell too, so make it sizzle.
Up front info is worth gold. If I know it is one of the scenarios you mentioned, or haggling is expected, game on!
I am fine with a haggle. Lots of ways to see value. Great discussion!
In your narrow scenario, I would compute needs plus reasonable wants, then add on compensation for any draconian policy and drop a number. Hit or miss. Not my problem, unless it is.
If it is my problem? Get a deal, keep life funded and look for better as ones risk and cost profile permits.
One qualifier is whether the position has a sales or biz dev component. Deffo haggle. Expected. There is a need to sell too, so make it sizzle.
Definitely agree. No company worth the trouble is going to be upset at you wondering what the role is worth to them.
If, for some reason you feel a need to give a number, always make sure it's higher than the one you'd actually accept.
That way, when they inevitably go below it, if you end up accepting they'll feel like they got a win. Also, sometimes you just get lucky and they offer you that crazy number.
If, for some reason you feel a need to give a number, always make sure it's higher than the one you'd actually accept.
That way, when they inevitably go below it, if you end up accepting they'll feel like they got a win. Also, sometimes you just get lucky and they offer you that crazy number.
A great tactic (and one I read that "recruiters love") is:
"If you can offer me $X, I can say yes right away."
"If you can offer me $X, I can say yes right away."
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How does this work on a total comp basis? Aren't the details (pension, healthcare, etc.) typically worth ~25%.
Is is wrong or illegal to just lie? I was asked this by an external recruiter once and I just told him the salary I wanted to make, and it ended up working out.
If they hire you and find out you lied, they might fire you. Some companies, particularly larger ones, will fire people for any lies on their job application or background check, as a matter of HR policy.
So, don't lie. Just refuse to tell them your salary history and talk about your expectations instead. If that negotiating approach causes you to lose that job opportunity then you were probably asking for more than they were willing to pay, and you probably weren't going to get it anyway.
So, don't lie. Just refuse to tell them your salary history and talk about your expectations instead. If that negotiating approach causes you to lose that job opportunity then you were probably asking for more than they were willing to pay, and you probably weren't going to get it anyway.
Given that they are never going to go to your previous employer and ask them what you made, there's nothing to lose there. Anyone who does ask something like that isn't someone anyone wants to work for anyway.
Always add 10-20%. If they like you, they will offer you and you can negotiate from there.
Always add 10-20%. If they like you, they will offer you and you can negotiate from there.
They don't get the info from your previous employer, they get it from your previous payroll processor. Many payroll processing companies happily sell your financial history, which is made available to your new employer via most background check companies.
That was my first thought as well. Just decide what you want and tell them something in that ballpark. Why try to drag it out of them what they want to pay? Either they will meet your demand or not.
It's not even really a lie if you consider that any equity you may have has fuzzy value.
It's not even really a lie if you consider that any equity you may have has fuzzy value.
Lying seems wrong. But just say 'I'm looking for $n'.
I just say 5% less than what I want. Are they really going to sue me? Nope!
Why would you ask for less than what you want? You are most likely going to get an offer of less than whatever you ask for.
I think it's saying your current salary is five percent less than what you want for the new job?
They'd expect you to be wanting an increase in order to move?
They'd expect you to be wanting an increase in order to move?
Exactly that. It establishes both their willingness to outdo a previous offer and their generosity at the same time.
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Once company didn't hire me.
I think, they believed me but weren't inclined to pay me that much.
I think, they believed me but weren't inclined to pay me that much.
This is almost as bad. You could still be leaving money on the table.
There are laws restricting how employers can use salary history in 19 states and 21 localities. In California, for example, employers cannot ask for salary history or use it to determine pay.
https://www.hrdive.com/news/salary-history-ban-states-list/5...
(p.s. HR Dive is one of my sites and we're hiring https://www.industrydive.com/careers/ I promise we won't ask for salary history :)
https://www.hrdive.com/news/salary-history-ban-states-list/5...
(p.s. HR Dive is one of my sites and we're hiring https://www.industrydive.com/careers/ I promise we won't ask for salary history :)
On paper, sure. When you're face to face with your interviewer and they ask you point blank, and you say "It's against the law for you to ask this", guess who's not getting a callback?
I was asked "What's your expectation around salary?" in an interview once, in MA, and then asked "Isn't it illegal for you to ask me that?"
She replied: "It's illegal for me to ask anything about your salary history. It's not illegal to ask about your expectations."
A rose by any other name, though...
She replied: "It's illegal for me to ask anything about your salary history. It's not illegal to ask about your expectations."
A rose by any other name, though...
That interviewer sounds a little rude, but... I think I agree with them. Those are materially different questions.
If I think I've been underpaid in the past, I can just start naming a new salary expectation but I can't rewrite my salary history.
In any event, I think it's also always OK for the applicant to say "I'd rather not say."
If I think I've been underpaid in the past, I can just start naming a new salary expectation but I can't rewrite my salary history.
In any event, I think it's also always OK for the applicant to say "I'd rather not say."
She wasn't rude at all - or even incorrect, for that matter. I've since followed up with HR professionals and even one lawyer: there was nothing illegal about her question.
My point was that there is still plenty of space within the bounds of law and politeness for you to compromise your negotiating position to a prospective employer. That's all. : )
My point was that there is still plenty of space within the bounds of law and politeness for you to compromise your negotiating position to a prospective employer. That's all. : )
I think that depends on the person doing the interview. Like if I were interviewing someone, and discussing salary was part of my role, and they named an expectation 2x what we were planning to pay, I'd ask them why.
Perhaps that's the norm where they come from? Maybe they heard Google paid that much? Maybe they were just throwing out a high number to anchor high?
It's funny to imagine the interview game being like the dating game teenagers talk about, where one wrong move, facial expression, or word uttered can wreck everything.
Perhaps that's the norm where they come from? Maybe they heard Google paid that much? Maybe they were just throwing out a high number to anchor high?
It's funny to imagine the interview game being like the dating game teenagers talk about, where one wrong move, facial expression, or word uttered can wreck everything.
I think that intentions matter when it comes to the law and questions like this.
They are technically different questions, but think for a moment about what the speaker is trying to achieve.
This is not talking with a friend, making pleasantries. This is at work, getting paid, by a company, to learn how low an offer they can make for it to be accepted.
Pretending that the conversation is anything except that, is serving the interests of companies who try to do exactly that.
Telling someone that what they perceive is not what it is, that what others can perceive is not what it is, is like flickering the lights on and off, and saying nothing is wrong, and asking why someone is so upset.
This is not talking with a friend, making pleasantries. This is at work, getting paid, by a company, to learn how low an offer they can make for it to be accepted.
Pretending that the conversation is anything except that, is serving the interests of companies who try to do exactly that.
Telling someone that what they perceive is not what it is, that what others can perceive is not what it is, is like flickering the lights on and off, and saying nothing is wrong, and asking why someone is so upset.
When asked about expectations, I always give a high number and they have to negotiate down from it. That's the universal rule of price negotiations, that's how it worked when buying a rug in Cairo in 1000 AD, and that's still how it works now.
If they already broke the law in an interview, what other laws are they breaking and are you willing to take a chance to be a scapegoat if they get caught?
This is a good indicator that you are interviewing for wrong company.
I don’t advocate lying, but in that case at least in California I think it’d be safe to give them any number you feel is useful. After all, this is a moment of negotiation, not a moment of establishing facts, and they have already told you they’re playing loose.
[Edit] To be clear, I would break off the interview instead of playing that game, but I have the good fortune to have a lot of offers. As others have said, it’s a big red flag. But if you’re stuck with it...
[Edit] To be clear, I would break off the interview instead of playing that game, but I have the good fortune to have a lot of offers. As others have said, it’s a big red flag. But if you’re stuck with it...
What sort of company behavior do you think you'd see there after you get hired? Seems like no callback = dodging a bullet
They can have fun hiring juniors without experience then
I've just realized a question//concern:
Is there any healthy place or way or method "juniors" can learn through experience without being screwed over? Be it low money, blood money, poor experience, terrible managers ... is "let the vile companies get the fresh graduates" the best answer here? What can be the alternative here?
[Edit:] Not everywhere has mentors. In my experience, mentors are a luxury. Saying "but mentors" isn't an end-all True answer. Same thing for Internships -- not all College Universities require them.
Maybe I am in a personal moral or ethical crisis here, but at the moment I'd like to stand by this line of question.
Is there any healthy place or way or method "juniors" can learn through experience without being screwed over? Be it low money, blood money, poor experience, terrible managers ... is "let the vile companies get the fresh graduates" the best answer here? What can be the alternative here?
[Edit:] Not everywhere has mentors. In my experience, mentors are a luxury. Saying "but mentors" isn't an end-all True answer. Same thing for Internships -- not all College Universities require them.
Maybe I am in a personal moral or ethical crisis here, but at the moment I'd like to stand by this line of question.
I don't think it's as big a problem, first because everyone will have bad experiences at some point and that's a growth opportunity in and of itself. Secondly because good candidates are apprehensive about bad companies regardless of their experience level.
And frankly the market is competitive enough that you can always quit a bad job to find a better one, if you're qualified.
And frankly the market is competitive enough that you can always quit a bad job to find a better one, if you're qualified.
> everyone will have bad experiences at some point and that's a growth opportunity in and of itself.
That's a really great point to bring up. Lousy professional experiences are opportunities to learn, or grow. Doesn't make them fun, but it does make them valuable.
>good candidates are apprehensive about bad companies regardless of their experience level.
I'm not certain this is true. There are plenty of smart, motivated people who don't necessarily have the career experience to notice red flags at a potentially negative employer.
That's a really great point to bring up. Lousy professional experiences are opportunities to learn, or grow. Doesn't make them fun, but it does make them valuable.
>good candidates are apprehensive about bad companies regardless of their experience level.
I'm not certain this is true. There are plenty of smart, motivated people who don't necessarily have the career experience to notice red flags at a potentially negative employer.
>Is there any healthy place or way or method "juniors" can learn through experience without being screwed over?
That's a great question. I agree that mentors aren't the catch-all answer. I will say, though, having been on both sides of the mentorship divide, that a good mentor is a powerful positive force in your career. Doesn't change the fact that it only gets you so far.
When it comes to money, I'm afraid there isn't a whole lot junior technical candidates can do to get more. In my experience, technical experience and negotiating leverage are the two surest paths to getting paid more. Junior engineers straight out of college have neither of these things. Jobs beget negotiating leverage. If you have a job, a new job has to give you a better deal to convince you to leap. That's something that a fresh college graduate, inconveniently, lacks.
There seems to be a lot of advice here that suggests taking the best job you can straight out of school, and then switching jobs as soon as you reasonably can. That's what I did - I spent a year at a big chip company, decided it wasn't for me, and left for a consumer electronics company. That one year of credible work experience netted me a ~30% raise on switching.
That's a great question. I agree that mentors aren't the catch-all answer. I will say, though, having been on both sides of the mentorship divide, that a good mentor is a powerful positive force in your career. Doesn't change the fact that it only gets you so far.
When it comes to money, I'm afraid there isn't a whole lot junior technical candidates can do to get more. In my experience, technical experience and negotiating leverage are the two surest paths to getting paid more. Junior engineers straight out of college have neither of these things. Jobs beget negotiating leverage. If you have a job, a new job has to give you a better deal to convince you to leap. That's something that a fresh college graduate, inconveniently, lacks.
There seems to be a lot of advice here that suggests taking the best job you can straight out of school, and then switching jobs as soon as you reasonably can. That's what I did - I spent a year at a big chip company, decided it wasn't for me, and left for a consumer electronics company. That one year of credible work experience netted me a ~30% raise on switching.
Someone with high enough standards to not work for companies that blatantly break laws?
I have used salary history to get raises though. My current job offered a rate that was less than my previous job, I showed them what I earned and they matched it + a small increment.
Congrats, however, that was after they already gave you an offer. What if you happened to be underpaid in your previous position? If you had shared your salary history before they made you an offer, they could have given you an offer that was less then they were willing to pay.
Yeah I realize most people are moving to get a raise, I'm trying to remind people that one day you'll be old and you'll be grateful to keep your rate.
I spoke to an apple recruiter ages ago who wouldnt budge / let the phone call proceed until I gave up a number.
that was pretty telling
that was pretty telling
For awhile, I was working as an indentured servant to my parents. I can't discuss those terms right now, because the case is being litigated. Everything after that is also tied up in discovery as the parental units are claiming unpaid rent from the time I was born until 18 years of age. If you continue to pursue this line of questioning, my lawyers will want to have a word with you about it.
Lie.
No, Don't lie.
Just tell them that you don't want to share it. Or, tell them that you can't share it if it's confidential.
But, share explicitly your expectation with them, and ask them to share range that the they is considering for this role with you to see if it makes sense to continue or not.
Just tell them that you don't want to share it. Or, tell them that you can't share it if it's confidential.
But, share explicitly your expectation with them, and ask them to share range that the they is considering for this role with you to see if it makes sense to continue or not.
Similar advice filtered through my own experiences:
You're at $company for interviews, and the HR person says, "So let's talk salary. What are your expectations?"
Your "A" strategy: "Oh, I just want to learn more about the team and the position for now. I can wait until we're moving forward with an offer to discuss compensation. I'm not worried about it."
They will probably balk. They might suggest they "just want to be sure they aren't wasting your time."
Your response is roughly: "If you're worried I might not be satisfied with your offer, I'm happy to hear the range you've got available and I'll think on it as I go through the process."
They will likely agree to talk about it later, at which point you are out or they are invested.
Your "B" strategy, if you're really, really pressed to name a number: Figure out a number that would make you excited -- like, a number you'd brag about to friends and family. Then increase it by 10-25%. That's your ask. They'll say no and counter-offer much lower. That's less than their top. Name your excited number or around there. And most important: be willing to walk away.
Keys to making these strategies effective:
- have other active job prospects on the go that you can allude to, but keep the status of those situations vaguely optimistic. Before you look for work, finally hit that Amazon or Google recruiter back. They have deep pockets. Now you can truthfully drop their names as people you're waiting to hear back on when $smallerCompany beats them to offer time.
- Be seriously willing to walk away. You might not be fortunate enough to be able to do this -- it's a very privileged situation to be in. But by far, your strongest negotiating position comes from being able to not flinch too hard when they say no, and in being serious about leaving if they can't give a satisfying response. You might have to just leave with no offer. That has to be okay, or you won't get a good deal.
This is cribbed from the classic kalzumeus blogpost linked in the article, modified by my own experience using it.
Edit: A big last point: when they do eventually make an offer with real numbers, verbally or written, don't lead off with "okay", "amazing!", or "thank you!".
You can tell them "that's a generous offer", "that's a great offer", "I appreciate that offer a lot", or something similar, to express that you acknowledge their work and that there's something on the table. Then, you tell them that you will (understandably) need to think it over, maybe to discuss it with your partner, and that you will get back to them as soon as possible. You're excited to work together.
You now have the time and the space to exit that high pressure situation. Think, and ask yourself: are you happy with that number? Could you comfortably say no? Are there other things you can ask for? Etc. Make your next move later, from a position of comfort and strength.
You're at $company for interviews, and the HR person says, "So let's talk salary. What are your expectations?"
Your "A" strategy: "Oh, I just want to learn more about the team and the position for now. I can wait until we're moving forward with an offer to discuss compensation. I'm not worried about it."
They will probably balk. They might suggest they "just want to be sure they aren't wasting your time."
Your response is roughly: "If you're worried I might not be satisfied with your offer, I'm happy to hear the range you've got available and I'll think on it as I go through the process."
They will likely agree to talk about it later, at which point you are out or they are invested.
Your "B" strategy, if you're really, really pressed to name a number: Figure out a number that would make you excited -- like, a number you'd brag about to friends and family. Then increase it by 10-25%. That's your ask. They'll say no and counter-offer much lower. That's less than their top. Name your excited number or around there. And most important: be willing to walk away.
Keys to making these strategies effective:
- have other active job prospects on the go that you can allude to, but keep the status of those situations vaguely optimistic. Before you look for work, finally hit that Amazon or Google recruiter back. They have deep pockets. Now you can truthfully drop their names as people you're waiting to hear back on when $smallerCompany beats them to offer time.
- Be seriously willing to walk away. You might not be fortunate enough to be able to do this -- it's a very privileged situation to be in. But by far, your strongest negotiating position comes from being able to not flinch too hard when they say no, and in being serious about leaving if they can't give a satisfying response. You might have to just leave with no offer. That has to be okay, or you won't get a good deal.
This is cribbed from the classic kalzumeus blogpost linked in the article, modified by my own experience using it.
Edit: A big last point: when they do eventually make an offer with real numbers, verbally or written, don't lead off with "okay", "amazing!", or "thank you!".
You can tell them "that's a generous offer", "that's a great offer", "I appreciate that offer a lot", or something similar, to express that you acknowledge their work and that there's something on the table. Then, you tell them that you will (understandably) need to think it over, maybe to discuss it with your partner, and that you will get back to them as soon as possible. You're excited to work together.
You now have the time and the space to exit that high pressure situation. Think, and ask yourself: are you happy with that number? Could you comfortably say no? Are there other things you can ask for? Etc. Make your next move later, from a position of comfort and strength.
Hiring managers aren't necessarily trying to talk you down when asking for salary information up front. It's waste of time to go through the interview process when parties have grossly mismatched expectations about compensation. To save time I usually ask something like "what number would get you interested in this job?"
Edit: typo
Edit: typo
>It's waste of time to go through the interview process when parties have grossly mismatched expectations about compensation. To save time I usually ask something like "what number would get you interested in this job?"
If the goal is to save time, why not give the candidate your salary budget up front, instead of putting the onus on them to share information?
If the goal is to save time, why not give the candidate your salary budget up front, instead of putting the onus on them to share information?
I think that’s still a play to put them at a negotiating disadvantage.
If I say “500” and you can only offer 400 but I might actually take 300 because it’s an interesting job, how does this continue?
If I say “500” and you can only offer 400 but I might actually take 300 because it’s an interesting job, how does this continue?
That happens reasonably often. If it's close enough and the candidate seems to be a good fit in other ways, I go ahead on the assumption that we can work something out when the time comes.
If they are outside the budget I usually just move on. It's not worth trying to beat candidates down on price. I want excellent people on the team who think they made a great move by joining us. If the goal is just cheap labor, it's way more effective to hire in less expensive markets.
Just my $0.02.
If they are outside the budget I usually just move on. It's not worth trying to beat candidates down on price. I want excellent people on the team who think they made a great move by joining us. If the goal is just cheap labor, it's way more effective to hire in less expensive markets.
Just my $0.02.
I wouldn’t answer what I make now, but I would happily tell a recruiter what I want to make. If you do your homework and find out what the upper bands are for the role, you can ask for the top of the band and usually get it.
One thing to understand is that, for big companies, most of the people involved in the hiring chain really want to make the hire and don’t care that much what you get paid, as long as it’s not way above everyone else.
One thing to understand is that, for big companies, most of the people involved in the hiring chain really want to make the hire and don’t care that much what you get paid, as long as it’s not way above everyone else.
Am I the only one who won't proceed in interview prospecting calls without almost immediately asking "what does the company have budgeted for a salary range?" It is extremely to the point and doesn't waste anyone's time.
Many people do this, the downside of it is that many people don't know what their range really is until they've spent 6 months failing to fill the position within budget.
I won't try to offer advice, but here's an anecdote of how not to do it:
In the 90s I applied to the startup where Peter Norvig was chief scientist, to work with him putting his prototype code into production. They decided to make an offer, but first asked about previous salary. I was reluctant, the manager said something reassuring, and finally I just told him. Context: I was a high-school dropout who'd just been working at NASA JPL, where the conjunction of government pay grades and my lack of degree meant a salary you'd laugh at nowadays. Further, I had no real experience with negotiation to help recover from this terrible mistake. So we never got anywhere acceptable from that anchor, and I had to go on to join a different and probably much less educational startup.
In the 90s I applied to the startup where Peter Norvig was chief scientist, to work with him putting his prototype code into production. They decided to make an offer, but first asked about previous salary. I was reluctant, the manager said something reassuring, and finally I just told him. Context: I was a high-school dropout who'd just been working at NASA JPL, where the conjunction of government pay grades and my lack of degree meant a salary you'd laugh at nowadays. Further, I had no real experience with negotiation to help recover from this terrible mistake. So we never got anywhere acceptable from that anchor, and I had to go on to join a different and probably much less educational startup.
That sucks. I'm sorry you missed out on that opportunity.
It sounds like they missed out on a great hire, if anything.
Thanks to both of you.
I made up for this a little bit, later on, by hacking aima-python and a few other things on my own time -- that was probably more fun to work on anyway.
I made up for this a little bit, later on, by hacking aima-python and a few other things on my own time -- that was probably more fun to work on anyway.
>that was probably more fun to work on anyway
Not getting paid for something definitely increases the odds of working on the fun parts!
Not getting paid for something definitely increases the odds of working on the fun parts!
Yeah, I agree. It sounds like a bummer for all parties.
The best I've found is just lying. Being cagey and asking "well what is it worth to you" seems to be working less and less these days. I've had companies flat out refuse to continue without a concrete answer to the current salary question. So, I add ~20% (adjusted based on the job) to my actual salary and tell them that number.
If they like me so much they'll give me more? Awesome, big raise.
If my "expectations are too high" and they offer me less? Cool, still getting a decent raise (assuming I take the job, because that's a pretty big red flag).
They're clearly going to play some BS mindgames with me, so I'll preemptively mess with their anchor number.
If they like me so much they'll give me more? Awesome, big raise.
If my "expectations are too high" and they offer me less? Cool, still getting a decent raise (assuming I take the job, because that's a pretty big red flag).
They're clearly going to play some BS mindgames with me, so I'll preemptively mess with their anchor number.
Another alternative to lying is playing the stock comp games companies play. "My comp has a large stock component, and as you know, it's tough to put a dollar number on it. Given current valuation estimates/growth trend/TAM/exit hopes/whatever, I'd estimate my total comp around [the high end of what I think you would consider reasonable]."
If they say it's too high, then you can say you might be willing to take a little less, potentially, for more of that to be cash/public liquid options/predictable/stable/whatever.
If they say it's too high, then you can say you might be willing to take a little less, potentially, for more of that to be cash/public liquid options/predictable/stable/whatever.
+1 to this, lying is never the right move, especially to a company you want to join.
This is actually a great response.
A colleague lost a hire over this. They found a great candidate and was ready to extend an offer once HR completed the background check. HR found out that the candidate had lied about (inflated) their previous salary. Lying during hiring is a mandatory "no" by company policy; bye-bye candidate.
If the candidate had simply declined to disclose previous salary, they almost certainly would have been hired.
In general, I would be careful about lying during hiring. Hard to predict the consequences if it is ever discovered. There are plenty of examples of even senior people getting kicked over this sort of thing.
If the candidate had simply declined to disclose previous salary, they almost certainly would have been hired.
In general, I would be careful about lying during hiring. Hard to predict the consequences if it is ever discovered. There are plenty of examples of even senior people getting kicked over this sort of thing.
> HR found out that the candidate had lied about (inflated) their previous salary. Lying during hiring is a mandatory "no" by company policy; bye-bye candidate.
What if he simply priced unexercised options or ESPP? Company car?
That doesn't sound very professional from the HR rep. And that reflects poorly on the company.
What if he simply priced unexercised options or ESPP? Company car?
That doesn't sound very professional from the HR rep. And that reflects poorly on the company.
> HR found out that the candidate had lied about (inflated) their previous salary.
How did they find out? I can't imagine they determined this from financial records so I intuit they must have been told by the candidate's previous employer, and if revealing an ex-employee's salary isn't illegal I would have surely thought it was pretty shady / frowned upon.
How did they find out? I can't imagine they determined this from financial records so I intuit they must have been told by the candidate's previous employer, and if revealing an ex-employee's salary isn't illegal I would have surely thought it was pretty shady / frowned upon.
Unless he works for a public org where salaries are public information (public universities, usually government jobs, etc). It should be difficult to find this information. Private companies already like to keep a tight seal on what they pay so I’m surprised a simple background check can reveal such sensitive information.
I never tell them what I am/was making. This information stays with me and my accountant.
I then (always) ask them to email me detailed (usually 2-3 pages) job specs. Sometimes they call something "Manager" and it could be a +2 or -2 ranks. It's nomenclature. Different companies go crazy on the titles. After I read the specs, I ask them the range. If they absolutely want to know how much I make, or how much I want, I just bid them farewell. It's probably a shitty company, or it has a shitty HR. Either way, I can always (hope) to find a job in a better place.
The asymmetry of information can really f... up your chances to maximize your income. Never give them a number because you enter a negotiation blindfolded.
Edit: This has always worked for me.
I then (always) ask them to email me detailed (usually 2-3 pages) job specs. Sometimes they call something "Manager" and it could be a +2 or -2 ranks. It's nomenclature. Different companies go crazy on the titles. After I read the specs, I ask them the range. If they absolutely want to know how much I make, or how much I want, I just bid them farewell. It's probably a shitty company, or it has a shitty HR. Either way, I can always (hope) to find a job in a better place.
The asymmetry of information can really f... up your chances to maximize your income. Never give them a number because you enter a negotiation blindfolded.
Edit: This has always worked for me.
Rather than lying, state "I'm looking for [range]"
Ideally yes and I play that game as long as I can, but eventually it often comes down to a direct "What is your current salary" question.
Responding with "I'm looking for $X-$Y" often isn't an acceptable answer and they continue pushing for current salary.
I've noticed it much more in the last 2-3 years, where they absolutely will not continue the process without a current salary, which is when I resort to that made up number.
Responding with "I'm looking for $X-$Y" often isn't an acceptable answer and they continue pushing for current salary.
I've noticed it much more in the last 2-3 years, where they absolutely will not continue the process without a current salary, which is when I resort to that made up number.
What exactly could they do to determine you are lying?
Nothing :) but many people think "oh what if they know someone on the HR of my current company and they call them up and ask them and they tell them????".
IANAL but in California that sounds like grounds for a lawsuit or even criminal prosecution. (Assuming you found out about it, of course.)
See https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio.... It's pretty clear.
See https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio.... It's pretty clear.
Is that even legal? Most companies have a "yes, that person worked here" policy.
> "yes, that person worked here"
2 reasons to do this:
1) In many (I assume all) countries companies run background checks. When I claim that I have worked for 10 years as role-XYZ in company-ABC, they need to somehow verify this claim. The (closed) question is "Did Henry Bemis worked as role-XYZ in your company for 10y?" And the answer is either Yes/No (or a very slight variation of the asnwer, to clarify the role title (due to traslation or interpretation issues)(i.e. asking in English language for a role in Italy).
2) In Europe (were we get a good number of vacation days) the "next" employer will need some form of verification for your years of work, as the number of vacation days increase depending on the number of years you worked. Different ranges for different countries. Although the "next employer" does have a copy of your CV and can add the years, they should have the assurance that "total of 10 years" is actual "10 years".
2 reasons to do this:
1) In many (I assume all) countries companies run background checks. When I claim that I have worked for 10 years as role-XYZ in company-ABC, they need to somehow verify this claim. The (closed) question is "Did Henry Bemis worked as role-XYZ in your company for 10y?" And the answer is either Yes/No (or a very slight variation of the asnwer, to clarify the role title (due to traslation or interpretation issues)(i.e. asking in English language for a role in Italy).
2) In Europe (were we get a good number of vacation days) the "next" employer will need some form of verification for your years of work, as the number of vacation days increase depending on the number of years you worked. Different ranges for different countries. Although the "next employer" does have a copy of your CV and can add the years, they should have the assurance that "total of 10 years" is actual "10 years".
The problem with this approach is that it is fraud. You'll never get charged for it, but it is fraud.
It's also not the biggest delta I've heard about while doing user feedback interviews for our salary estimation startup [1]. We had one user who ended up being offered double the salary he was expecting ($300k instead of $150k). He now swears by getting to the magic phrase, "we'd love to have you on board X, we just need to talk about numbers."
This single negotiation allowed his wife to stop work and for them to start a family.
[1] https://peerwyse.com
It's also not the biggest delta I've heard about while doing user feedback interviews for our salary estimation startup [1]. We had one user who ended up being offered double the salary he was expecting ($300k instead of $150k). He now swears by getting to the magic phrase, "we'd love to have you on board X, we just need to talk about numbers."
This single negotiation allowed his wife to stop work and for them to start a family.
[1] https://peerwyse.com
Please show me where this is stated in the law.
In California it's definitely illegal for an employer to ask you that information
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...
In California it's definitely illegal for an employer to ask you that information
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...
Just because it illegal to ask a question does not mean answering it dishonestly is not fraudulent.
Perhaps there is some argument that as the question should not have been asked the answer can not be material.
Many contracts of employment contain a clause allowing summary dismissal if found to have lied during your application.
Perhaps there is some argument that as the question should not have been asked the answer can not be material.
Many contracts of employment contain a clause allowing summary dismissal if found to have lied during your application.
This is easier said than done, specially in more junior positions when you don't carry that much weight.
As an anecdotal example I remember some years back I was interviewing with Philips Respironics for what would have been my 2nd job out of university.
On my 1st round interview (HR call) I was asked about my current salary, I chose the polite non-answer of "I don't feel it would be respectful for my current colleagues to disclose my salary or package conditions".
The interviewer immediately went into passive agressive mode and told me that she would not be able to progress the application forward without an answer to that question. I ended up moving to a better role but that was a valuable lesson.
I agree with the points made but this only really works once you sort of build a name for yourself and you carry some weight in the value that you bring.
As an anecdotal example I remember some years back I was interviewing with Philips Respironics for what would have been my 2nd job out of university.
On my 1st round interview (HR call) I was asked about my current salary, I chose the polite non-answer of "I don't feel it would be respectful for my current colleagues to disclose my salary or package conditions".
The interviewer immediately went into passive agressive mode and told me that she would not be able to progress the application forward without an answer to that question. I ended up moving to a better role but that was a valuable lesson.
I agree with the points made but this only really works once you sort of build a name for yourself and you carry some weight in the value that you bring.
You should ask for their pay range very early, preferably before the first interview and before they even have the opportunity to ask about your salary or expectations. No need to waste your time interviewing just to get a low offer. If they push back say you want to make sure it's a good fit. If they refuse then pass on them.
I would love to exchange salary info! I'm looking forward to what salary you have offered, and paid, others for this position and role in the past as well as other positions and roles not exactly the same as this one but somewhat related or similar to this one. :)
"I signed an NDA with my previous company that is still in effect. I can't disclose this information."
If they insist beyond the point of politeness, "Do you really want to hire someone who wouldn't honor an NDA?"
If they insist beyond the point of politeness, "Do you really want to hire someone who wouldn't honor an NDA?"
This is an interesting idea. Doesn't it assume the interviewer has never met anyone from your ex-company before or implies that you left "under a cloud."
When doing user interviews for my salary estimate startup [1] I ask people if they've taken / thought about a negotiation class. I've been surprised how many have thought about it and how few have gone through with it. I doubt that this would be a recommended strategy in a negotiation class, but like my users, I haven't taken such a class either.
[1] https://peerwyse.com
When doing user interviews for my salary estimate startup [1] I ask people if they've taken / thought about a negotiation class. I've been surprised how many have thought about it and how few have gone through with it. I doubt that this would be a recommended strategy in a negotiation class, but like my users, I haven't taken such a class either.
[1] https://peerwyse.com
> Doesn't it imply that you left "under a cloud."
Not necessarily. Signing NDAs is standard upon joining a company.
Not necessarily. Signing NDAs is standard upon joining a company.
I'd be worried about what was going on at a company that required me to sign an NDA just to work there.
If the company asks early in the process, you will really want to clarify the range they're looking at. Often, recruiters really are trying to do you both a favor. They will always ask what you're looking for if you tell them that the range they've given is too low for you. Which is fine with me - as the pay I'm looking for is outlandish for many startups and non-FAANG companies. I rather not waste time with the companies unless I think they'll be good for interview practice. :)
Right; I give a couple of comp levels on the first call/e-mail, and request verification that the position or positions in question can meet them. If not, then there's no point in wasting more time.
> ... unless I think they'll be good for interview practice ...
Well, there's that too! But I'm still up front about the baseline comp requirements.
> ... unless I think they'll be good for interview practice ...
Well, there's that too! But I'm still up front about the baseline comp requirements.
>recruiters really are trying to do you both a favor.
Third party recruiters, yes. They have an incentive to maximize your comp, as it also maximizes their commission.
In-house recruiters? No way. They're seeking the most talent for the least money.
Always be mindful of the incentives of each party.
Third party recruiters, yes. They have an incentive to maximize your comp, as it also maximizes their commission.
In-house recruiters? No way. They're seeking the most talent for the least money.
Always be mindful of the incentives of each party.
Maybe - but I'd fire a recruiter who kept giving me candidates that were looking for comp well beyond what we could offer. If I constantly got candidates all the way to the offer stage and the candidate rejected us on pay, that's a terrible scenario and a huge waste of time for everyone involved.
Asking the range that the role offers solves this problem nicely without compromising your negotiating position as a prospective employee.
Tell them no. I never share it.
That's strategically sound. If you omit the "no" and soften the "never" by substituting "don't", you achieve the same thing without jeopardising the flow of interaction.
Just say "I don't share that." in a good natured, confident smiling tone. Then be absolutely silent and wait for them to continue the conversation.
If they rephrase their enquiry, don't revisit your statement, which has already been clearly delivered and doesn't require repeating. Instead, take the opportunity to move the conversation along:
"What salary and conditions are you offering for this position?"
Just say "I don't share that." in a good natured, confident smiling tone. Then be absolutely silent and wait for them to continue the conversation.
If they rephrase their enquiry, don't revisit your statement, which has already been clearly delivered and doesn't require repeating. Instead, take the opportunity to move the conversation along:
"What salary and conditions are you offering for this position?"
I like to say "Well, I've been paid a lot and a little. Either can be acceptable depending on the time and place. My time is functionally invaluable, as is yours. What is the salary range of engineers for this position at your company?"
Then dovetail that conversation into the larger compensation package talk. Shares, vesting schedule, valuation/cap table, bonuses, signing bonus, moving expenses, hardware provided, healthcare, 401k, etc. I like to talk about bonuses and the specifics of the bonus determination and request 30/60/90 day review as I start to get adjusted to company culture. No one EVER does the 30/60/90, but they enthusiastically agree to it. Also no one ever shares specifics on how they determine bonuses. But they like to pretend that a standard exist and you can gain a lot by talking about it, even if all you get is an clear picture of how totally nuts the place is that you're about to work for.
Then dovetail that conversation into the larger compensation package talk. Shares, vesting schedule, valuation/cap table, bonuses, signing bonus, moving expenses, hardware provided, healthcare, 401k, etc. I like to talk about bonuses and the specifics of the bonus determination and request 30/60/90 day review as I start to get adjusted to company culture. No one EVER does the 30/60/90, but they enthusiastically agree to it. Also no one ever shares specifics on how they determine bonuses. But they like to pretend that a standard exist and you can gain a lot by talking about it, even if all you get is an clear picture of how totally nuts the place is that you're about to work for.
If they don't actually ever do it, how does it derive to your benefit?
In the negotiation you can get them to establish some standard for you in writing that you can hold them to when you meet those. This is helped a lot by the 30/60/90 review which they will most likely blow off. Unless you're at a huge company, the standards are unwritten. You can see how they think about their employees, what their metrics are and sometimes help them get a better perspective out of what motivates you to succeed. The conversation canonized into a contract is hugely valuable especially if the "fit" ends up being something you don't love.
This advice is from my 20+ year experience working as a serial startup founder and first (or near first) hire. I've moved out of that field but I find it useful in all negotiations. It's good to keep in mind with startups that they probably know nearly as much as you about organizing teams. I don't fault my employers for failing to do the 30/60/90, but the ones that have did a much better job growing with me. The ones that failed at it, at least we could talk about why and I think that was useful.
Worst case, you end up a sacrificial lamb that helps them figure out solid on-boarding and you likely get paid for the grief.
Mostly in negotiation it's a tactic to get them on their heels when they asked you a "reasonable" question that you didn't want to answer by doing the same thing back to them. That said, I think it's always important to keep in mind the human aspects of what it takes to build businesses. You want them to succeed so you can too. Taking too big of a slice can be something that hurts your future at the company as well. You need insight and compassion.
A lot of people don't see employment negotiation as the same thing as contract negotiation. They see it more akin to dating. Avoiding the sticky parts to get accepted (I personally don't recommend that for dating either). Confidently discussing the hard parts means everyone has a clear picture of where they are going that they can look back on when the departure occurs. Discussing internal policies early weeds out people that are unwilling to discuss them and increases the likelihood that you'll have a prosperous partnership.
This advice is from my 20+ year experience working as a serial startup founder and first (or near first) hire. I've moved out of that field but I find it useful in all negotiations. It's good to keep in mind with startups that they probably know nearly as much as you about organizing teams. I don't fault my employers for failing to do the 30/60/90, but the ones that have did a much better job growing with me. The ones that failed at it, at least we could talk about why and I think that was useful.
Worst case, you end up a sacrificial lamb that helps them figure out solid on-boarding and you likely get paid for the grief.
Mostly in negotiation it's a tactic to get them on their heels when they asked you a "reasonable" question that you didn't want to answer by doing the same thing back to them. That said, I think it's always important to keep in mind the human aspects of what it takes to build businesses. You want them to succeed so you can too. Taking too big of a slice can be something that hurts your future at the company as well. You need insight and compassion.
A lot of people don't see employment negotiation as the same thing as contract negotiation. They see it more akin to dating. Avoiding the sticky parts to get accepted (I personally don't recommend that for dating either). Confidently discussing the hard parts means everyone has a clear picture of where they are going that they can look back on when the departure occurs. Discussing internal policies early weeds out people that are unwilling to discuss them and increases the likelihood that you'll have a prosperous partnership.
There are one or more grammatical or syntax peculiarities in the template answer proposed in TFA:
“I’m still trying to establish whether this role is a good fit for me. Why? What is this role worth to your company?”
The "Why?" is non-sequitously sandwiched in-between a statement of personal intent and a question that seeks to deflect back to the interviewer, reversing the question.
Leaving aside the issues of whether each of those pieces is strategically sound or likely to work, the syntax of the response requires (a) unscrambling, and (b) refinement.
“I’m still trying to establish whether this role is a good fit for me. Why? What is this role worth to your company?”
The "Why?" is non-sequitously sandwiched in-between a statement of personal intent and a question that seeks to deflect back to the interviewer, reversing the question.
Leaving aside the issues of whether each of those pieces is strategically sound or likely to work, the syntax of the response requires (a) unscrambling, and (b) refinement.
I feel like recruiters and hiring managers are becoming more comfortable with candidates not disclosing their salaries. "I can't disclose my current salary, but my target for my role is _x_" has gone over well for the last few years.
I've been interviewing for remote jobs based in several countries out the USA. Not once have I been asked for a salary history.
What I have been asked is for "my salary indication" and "my salary requirements" for which I have a prepared answer.
If I were asked for a salary history I would respond with "my requirement is X."
What I have been asked is for "my salary indication" and "my salary requirements" for which I have a prepared answer.
If I were asked for a salary history I would respond with "my requirement is X."
My rate is X is the answer to the question.
When they start talking numbers, that's an indication it's time to move to close the sale - assuming you want it at that point. So anchor it where you want to start the negotiation and be prepared to walk.
Remember, you're worth it. Let somebody else have the dross.
When they start talking numbers, that's an indication it's time to move to close the sale - assuming you want it at that point. So anchor it where you want to start the negotiation and be prepared to walk.
Remember, you're worth it. Let somebody else have the dross.
I normally answer something like “the salary range I’m looking for is x” firmly enough to show I’m not playing that game. If they continue to push I’ll ask them to explain how the information is used and why they think it should apply to this role. Tbh if they’ve pushed that far though it’s probably somewhat soured the relationship for me.
> Disclosing your salary can turn a potential double digit raise when changing jobs to a few percent raise.
Fwiw, I've had success with "I make $high_six_figures, I'm at a good trajectory in my current role, so to make up for ramp up risk and various downsides I'd have to see 30-50% more" and got an offer on the high end of that. I'm not sure acting uncooperative would've worked better.
Fwiw, I've had success with "I make $high_six_figures, I'm at a good trajectory in my current role, so to make up for ramp up risk and various downsides I'd have to see 30-50% more" and got an offer on the high end of that. I'm not sure acting uncooperative would've worked better.
“I’m sorry, I can’t give that to you. It’s against policy.”
For whatever it’s worth, in my experience the absolute non-disclosure of current salary, inflation of current salary to an acceptable number, or simply fabricating the number from the beginning are non-starters, due to a “service” payroll processors offer to employers. Look up TheWorkNumber some time, and pull a report for yourself if possible. It is absolutely horrifying such detail about salary history and job role/title is just warehoused somewhere. The last two jobs I’ve had included HR pulling a report as a routine part of making an offer.
Wow, TIL. What the hell?!
(I don't think something like this exists in most of Europe, although in some Scandinavian countries the salaries are public and you can get mostly anyone's income info on a government website)
(I don't think something like this exists in most of Europe, although in some Scandinavian countries the salaries are public and you can get mostly anyone's income info on a government website)
Hmm... only give it when it suits you? Or if you are desperate to have a job, I guess. Otherwise it's relatively easy to evade and deflect these things.
I've been in a late-stage startup where options and RSUs were given very haphazardly (and in fact almost every grant I had was on a different vesting plan for whatever reason, too), so when a BigCo HR person pressed me for my compensation history and I tried to explain the whole thing, after a few clarifying questions and answers their head exploded and I was given a larger than expected sign-up grant, probably based on one year where the confluence of schedules made for the largest total comp :)
OTOH when I joined that late stage startup in the first place, I was in another bigco with a relatively low salary so IIRC I evaded questions and pushed them to use the market rate; although that was a long time ago.
I've been in a late-stage startup where options and RSUs were given very haphazardly (and in fact almost every grant I had was on a different vesting plan for whatever reason, too), so when a BigCo HR person pressed me for my compensation history and I tried to explain the whole thing, after a few clarifying questions and answers their head exploded and I was given a larger than expected sign-up grant, probably based on one year where the confluence of schedules made for the largest total comp :)
OTOH when I joined that late stage startup in the first place, I was in another bigco with a relatively low salary so IIRC I evaded questions and pushed them to use the market rate; although that was a long time ago.