Sketch: Proud to Build a Truly Native Mac App(sketch.com)
sketch.com
Sketch: Proud to Build a Truly Native Mac App
https://www.sketch.com/blog/2020/10/26/part-of-your-world-why-we-re-proud-to-build-a-truly-native-mac-app/?hn
361 comments
> Design is communication.
I assume it’s unintentional, but the rest of your comment twists the original meaning of the maxim[0]. In my experience, “design is communication” generally means a slightly less obvious thing: how through the medium of your design you communicate with the end user.
Your points about the importance of communication between designers are valid, but by using that maxim you make it sound like all design is done in teams, which isn’t fair—a single person can design a great product (and need none of the collaboration tools), if they do indeed understand their users well.
[0] Here’s a lovely article: https://jnd.org/design_as_communication/
I assume it’s unintentional, but the rest of your comment twists the original meaning of the maxim[0]. In my experience, “design is communication” generally means a slightly less obvious thing: how through the medium of your design you communicate with the end user.
Your points about the importance of communication between designers are valid, but by using that maxim you make it sound like all design is done in teams, which isn’t fair—a single person can design a great product (and need none of the collaboration tools), if they do indeed understand their users well.
[0] Here’s a lovely article: https://jnd.org/design_as_communication/
Agree. But one thing to note is that many of the communication tools and features built into tools like figma or Adobe xd are not just for communication among designers but communication between designers and developers and even other stakeholders like clients and project managers.
what an amazing comment and article, thanks for sharing
This entire post can be summed up as "I haven't used Sketch for a long time and had therefore completely missed the introduction of Sketch.cloud"
Sketch Cloud seems very similar to Zeplin, which still has limits to collaboration compared to Figma.
Also, the focus still seems to be on the Mac app, everything goes through that. That's still a big hurdle when it comes to collaboration.
Also, the focus still seems to be on the Mac app, everything goes through that. That's still a big hurdle when it comes to collaboration.
Not the point.
What is the point is that Sketch didn't have the functionality they needed at the time they needed it, so they migrated to Figma.
What is the point is that Sketch didn't have the functionality they needed at the time they needed it, so they migrated to Figma.
This is exactly why almost nobody writes native apps anymore. You're restricted to only one platform, which limits your ability to collaborate with anyone not using that platform.
Asking someone to actually install an app is also itself a huge barrier.
Installation of native apps on desktop is a nightmare requiring at least two or three steps, which is unforgivable to most users in 2020 for anything approaching consumer or collaboration software. For that kind of software anything with more than one step in 2020 is broken and unusable. Nobody is going to jump through hoops just to view a proposal or something.
Mobile OSes made this somewhat better, but not much. App stores are slow, hard to search, and a nightmare for developers which discourages things from being written for them. Users also dislike installing mobile apps now as they assume, usually correctly, that any mobile app is so riddled with spyware it's borderline malware. Each install is yet another thing that's likely to be sucking your contacts, spying on your clipboard, tracking your phone usage, and sending your location to ten different adware monetization platforms.
Nothing compares to the ease of entering or clicking a URL and bam you're there.
Asking someone to actually install an app is also itself a huge barrier.
Installation of native apps on desktop is a nightmare requiring at least two or three steps, which is unforgivable to most users in 2020 for anything approaching consumer or collaboration software. For that kind of software anything with more than one step in 2020 is broken and unusable. Nobody is going to jump through hoops just to view a proposal or something.
Mobile OSes made this somewhat better, but not much. App stores are slow, hard to search, and a nightmare for developers which discourages things from being written for them. Users also dislike installing mobile apps now as they assume, usually correctly, that any mobile app is so riddled with spyware it's borderline malware. Each install is yet another thing that's likely to be sucking your contacts, spying on your clipboard, tracking your phone usage, and sending your location to ten different adware monetization platforms.
Nothing compares to the ease of entering or clicking a URL and bam you're there.
They’ve literally stated that Sketch app has live collaboration coming
I think OP was referring to cross-platform support and being able to work with people who don't have a Mac, unless I am misunderstanding.
I think they need at least a live Web preview too, and cover all of Figma‘s other functionality.
This is what users have been saying since the dawn of time. Developers don't get it, they think everybody is using their platform and their software is so much better, so it must beat out the problems of multiplatform software.
Reality is if your average user can't click and install, very few are going to use your GUI software. They don't care how it's made. This is the great divide between engineer and user that's examples every day here on HN.
Reality is if your average user can't click and install, very few are going to use your GUI software. They don't care how it's made. This is the great divide between engineer and user that's examples every day here on HN.
There is a Zeplin plugin for Sketch which works pretty well https://zeplin.io/
One thing I think people aren't pointing out is how much Figma seems to have done [1] to make the web platform work for them in the way Sketch is describing the Mac App. It almost seems like a technical moat of sorts. Achieving the ridiculous snappiness Figma in browsers is certainly non-trivial.
[1] https://www.figma.com/blog/building-a-professional-design-to...
[1] https://www.figma.com/blog/building-a-professional-design-to...
It’s snappy for a web app. If it was a native app it would be mediocre.
the thing with web apps is - it's slow, but it is the Java's original goal from the 90s "write once, run everywhere" actually realized. Plus, built-in collaborativeness and automatic updates. And, easier to get developers.
Native is nice, native is fast, and it will have its place (compare how bad is Google Meet compared to Zoom with respect to CPU/RAM), but web is becoming "good enough".
Native is nice, native is fast, and it will have its place (compare how bad is Google Meet compared to Zoom with respect to CPU/RAM), but web is becoming "good enough".
> write once, run everywhere
thats rarely true for complex web apps... (doubly true if your using firefox)
thats rarely true for complex web apps... (doubly true if your using firefox)
> Native is nice, native is fast
Only if you are using a Mac. On linux, the zoom client is neither fast nor (in my admittedly slightly subjective opinion) nice.
Only if you are using a Mac. On linux, the zoom client is neither fast nor (in my admittedly slightly subjective opinion) nice.
That's an interesting anecdote, as I've only used zoom on linux, but not really related to what you quoted.
Interesting. I'm curious what machine spec you're on. I'm running Ubuntu 20.04 on an dell laptop (XPS 7590 with an i9 processor, 32gb ram, discrete Nvidia graphics card).
I see my processor spin up to 90% utilization whenever I do a zoom call.
I see my processor spin up to 90% utilization whenever I do a zoom call.
Zoom is Electron isn't it? That's not native.
No, it's native. At least on Mac.
edit: judging by `strings`, it's Objective C/Cocoa app on Mac. As native as it can be. No idea on Linux.
edit: judging by `strings`, it's Objective C/Cocoa app on Mac. As native as it can be. No idea on Linux.
It's Electron on Linux and what's being discussed is that it's slow on Linux. Nobody refuted that it's slow on macOS, it was even stated.
I will need to check if you’re right.
edit
just judged on dependencies of the deb package, it looks like a native app. But, I will check the actual app.
https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/204206269-Installi...
edit
just judged on dependencies of the deb package, it looks like a native app. But, I will check the actual app.
https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/204206269-Installi...
Every single day I’m finding myself using more and more Figma over my standard workflow tools like Photoshop and Illustrator...I just absolutely love how fast and snappy it is.
IDK if I'm the only one but figma feels lightyears away from sketch in snapiness, but the multiplayer features of figma are what give it the edge.
Agree, Figma is definitely slower, but Sketch has issues too when there are too many objects in the workspace. I think if Sketch made their performance 10x better, then I'd agree that native apps are better, but it's more like a 1.2x than a 10x.
I must be the only one that refuses to pay for a software subscription.
But I'm not a pro, don't have corporate to pay for my license, may only use a drawing, design, paint program occasionally.
But I'm not a pro, don't have corporate to pay for my license, may only use a drawing, design, paint program occasionally.
I am pro and don't use cloud software in production, actually this is a clause in contract for my clients. They care about quality not trendiness. Downvotes on your comment are telling me that this is the new JS topic. Oh no.... :)
I think there are plenty of things to knock cloud based SaaS tools for but quality is a weird one - there are plenty of high quality cloud based solutions that can deliver high quality outputs.
Sorry, my english is not polished enough to express my point of view properly. I will try again. When I talk about quality it is in context applied to servicing my clients. In context of UX/UI and graphical design. When using a traditionally licensed software I own a tool. I can do my professional work with this tool and make a profit. New features add extra functionality and if I have a business case for this new functionality I can invest. But in most of use cases I can do my work with previous version with base functionality. Life cycle of graphic software must be long. Thats why I use Affinty software for design and avoid Adobe products. I know what my ROI is. My software is not bloated with background web services and notifications.
There is a really useful free tier - I think the paid tier mostly includes collaboration features.
I had a recent experience with autodesk that shows that free tiers can disappear or be neutered after you've invested significant time and energy into them.
If you just owned that version of the software it would work forever instead you are at the mercy of the platform forever.
Caveat emptor
If you just owned that version of the software it would work forever instead you are at the mercy of the platform forever.
Caveat emptor
It's not just free tiers. Imagine the comments here in a decades time when Figma goes full Adobe and starts to squeeze every last drop of blood out of their customer base.
when the article about not being able to run adobe CS1/2 came up I nervously eyed my copy of CS6 from 2012...
Except some non-subscription software are still SaaS in disguise.
Take a look at Sketch. You can use a file on future versions...but up to a point. If you hit that limit, you will have to buy the upgrade.
Take a look at Sketch. You can use a file on future versions...but up to a point. If you hit that limit, you will have to buy the upgrade.
I don't use sketch, so I don't know anything about it. It's mac only and while i have an ipad pro and an iphone, I don't own a mac and dont want one, and thats a mac only app.
I'm not sure why sketch would have the restrictions they have except that forever supporting old formats might be more expensive than they could justify.
I'm not sure why sketch would have the restrictions they have except that forever supporting old formats might be more expensive than they could justify.
Figma is free unless you need team functionality.
You need the team plan if you want to share a design tokens/components across projects, for example a color palette.
Am I the only one that finds figma a little complicated to use (I mean, I didn't find it intuitive enough). But then again designing is not my job, I'm just a developer who thought of trying it after so many people praised it.
Figma user here, I wouldn't call it snappy. Feels just about the same as any other design tool I've used in the past (as a dev, consumer -- not the designer).
figma is pretty freaken amazing, and it works outside of macs. So overall there is nothing but upsides to it. Collaboration is amazing too. Just... No down sides.
Fan of Figma, but would switch to a better one in a heartbeat because of the following huge downside..
Once you are in Figma, you are trapped forever. No way to get out your original editable artwork files.
Buyer beware!
Once you are in Figma, you are trapped forever. No way to get out your original editable artwork files.
Buyer beware!
They have an API using which you get a json representation of your files. That is the same as sketch (whose file format is essentially zipped json files).
There are paid 3rd-party tools to convert Figma to XD/Sketch and back, so you're not completely locked in. https://xd2sketch.com/
[deleted]
This should be higher up! Is there really no way to get your original designs out of Figma? That's pretty damning. Wow.
That goes for nearly all design software...
Not really.
I could switch to Figma from Sketch very easily because I could upload my Sketch files in Figma and Figma could deconstruct them into layers and elements with even layer names intact!
Vice versa? No.
Even Photoshop files .PSD are readable in many other photo editing apps.
Figma.. no never.
I could switch to Figma from Sketch very easily because I could upload my Sketch files in Figma and Figma could deconstruct them into layers and elements with even layer names intact!
Vice versa? No.
Even Photoshop files .PSD are readable in many other photo editing apps.
Figma.. no never.
I thought “if you’re in the EU, make a GDPR request for your data”.
However, the only page I found is https://help.figma.com/hc/en-us/articles/360041060434-Genera..., which says they’re committed to your privacy, but doesn’t mention data portability.
However, the only page I found is https://help.figma.com/hc/en-us/articles/360041060434-Genera..., which says they’re committed to your privacy, but doesn’t mention data portability.
even if they don't mention it, GDPR still applies and yours could be an interesting approach
> No down sides
Figma is significantly more expensive than Sketch, e.g. for individuals: $144/year vs ($99 for first year + $79 for next years), and that's if you choose to upgrade Sketch every year, which you don't need to.
Figma also doesn't really work offline.
Figma is significantly more expensive than Sketch, e.g. for individuals: $144/year vs ($99 for first year + $79 for next years), and that's if you choose to upgrade Sketch every year, which you don't need to.
Figma also doesn't really work offline.
Figma have a free plan which works perfectly fine for my purposes (implementing designs given to me by designers, and very occasionally making my own).
Atrocious performance and memory usage. I have to always close tab after I'm done with Figma or laptop crawls.
I respect them for sticking to this, but I think it's a mistake. It's clear users in general don't care about an app being pure Mac OS controls/SDKs/etc. and their claims about it being a truly superior UX are unfounded (having used both regularly, Figma disproves that heavily). With this, Sketch isn't available on Windows nor the web (until very recently it seems?).
I wouldn't die on that hill.
I wouldn't die on that hill.
I think this is a good example of the HN bubble which is one of the only places where "native macOS app" means anything to anybody. At least something more than "oh, I need to have a Macbook for that?"
My girlfriend is a UX professional that does most of her work in Sketch. She doesn't care about macOS beyond the fact that it's required by the tools she has to use.
I impulse-built an overpowered Windows machine earlier this year and tried to pawn it off on her, but she didn't even want it because it doesn't run Sketch. She's stuck on a Macbook.
Some people are replying to you saying there are these great benefits to being macOS native, but they really pale in comparison to having to learn something as complex as Sketch. A few familiar component paradigms don't really put a dent in the learning curve, or it's at least vastly overstated. I'd liken Sketch more to Photoshop in the sense that some native components aren't going to make the hard stuff easier.
One practical downside of being macOS-only is that it makes those hard fought Sketch skills less portable and any business that uses Sketch in their pipeline now has a hard platform requirement. Maybe they'll choose something else like Figma. That's something much more tangible to a Sketch professional.
Even VS Code's popularity among developers (the one group presumably sensitive to "native" vs not) suggests how little weight "native" carries with most people. When it's time to get work done, turns out there are more important considerations.
I think you're right, hard to imagine it's a hill worth dying on.
My girlfriend is a UX professional that does most of her work in Sketch. She doesn't care about macOS beyond the fact that it's required by the tools she has to use.
I impulse-built an overpowered Windows machine earlier this year and tried to pawn it off on her, but she didn't even want it because it doesn't run Sketch. She's stuck on a Macbook.
Some people are replying to you saying there are these great benefits to being macOS native, but they really pale in comparison to having to learn something as complex as Sketch. A few familiar component paradigms don't really put a dent in the learning curve, or it's at least vastly overstated. I'd liken Sketch more to Photoshop in the sense that some native components aren't going to make the hard stuff easier.
One practical downside of being macOS-only is that it makes those hard fought Sketch skills less portable and any business that uses Sketch in their pipeline now has a hard platform requirement. Maybe they'll choose something else like Figma. That's something much more tangible to a Sketch professional.
Even VS Code's popularity among developers (the one group presumably sensitive to "native" vs not) suggests how little weight "native" carries with most people. When it's time to get work done, turns out there are more important considerations.
I think you're right, hard to imagine it's a hill worth dying on.
Sounds like she came up with a good reason to decline the offer under the duress of someone comparing specs as a selling point. If I did the same with my GF who just uses the web and some standard apps, she'd be like "no, why would I want that giant monolithic rgb heat generator that I can't take anywhere?". Some people buy nacs because that's what the applications run on, or it's required for school, but a hell of a lot of people just like macs.
I agree. When I started my current job 6 years ago I choose the Mac because of the terminal. Then, when I could get the new Macbook Pro I stayed for Keynote (imho just the best tool for presentations) and Sketch (as an analyst I sometimes need to create dashboard mock-ups). Now I use Figma exclusively for that as I also use a Windows machine and sometimes a Linux one. Well Figma is usable on all of them and were it not for Keynote I would ditch the Mac totally.
In my agency Mac is there because of tradition from developers and designers. More and more developers jump ship to better hardware and use Windows with WLS2 or Linux. Designers tend to stay with the Mac even if they switch to Figma. Some years back it was PS -> Sketch. Now it is Sketch-> Figma massively for a year or so.
In my agency Mac is there because of tradition from developers and designers. More and more developers jump ship to better hardware and use Windows with WLS2 or Linux. Designers tend to stay with the Mac even if they switch to Figma. Some years back it was PS -> Sketch. Now it is Sketch-> Figma massively for a year or so.
Without intending to criticize your relationship to your girlfriend, I think your experience presents a lesson in client-provider relations. It’s absolutely vital that you understand your client’s needs before running off and building them a solution they may reject out of hand.
An overpowered Windows machine is best suited for gaming, not design work. Vector graphics tools like Sketch work fine on a MacBook. They don’t need a desktop grade CPU with tons of RAM and a powerful video card.
An overpowered Windows machine is best suited for gaming, not design work. Vector graphics tools like Sketch work fine on a MacBook. They don’t need a desktop grade CPU with tons of RAM and a powerful video card.
Her aging Macbook Pro definitely struggles with the load. So much that she's asked me for help to figure out what's wrong. But a large Sketch project, like a large Photoshop project, is just resource intensive.
An overpowered machine would definitely be welcome. My point was to emphasize how a crossplatform app would let her take advantage of the opportunity (a new computer I built for one game that I'm giving away) where a native app does very little for her.
I use a Macbook myself and encountered the same thing on the new Windows machine. Every application that was Mac-only was just downside. It made me extra motivated to finished shifting my work environment to crossplat apps like VSCode. And CLI tools that worked well in WSL2.
An overpowered machine would definitely be welcome. My point was to emphasize how a crossplatform app would let her take advantage of the opportunity (a new computer I built for one game that I'm giving away) where a native app does very little for her.
I use a Macbook myself and encountered the same thing on the new Windows machine. Every application that was Mac-only was just downside. It made me extra motivated to finished shifting my work environment to crossplat apps like VSCode. And CLI tools that worked well in WSL2.
Adobe XD is on windows and Mac and does everything Sketch does with its plugin ecosystem.
Windows is broken spyware.
Well. Being in a corporate job (agency I work for got bought some years back and we need to have compliance with the corp requirements) I can say that my Mac and my Win devices have the same level of spyware. While at least on Windows every program (as far as I am aware) follows firewall rules without circumvention. Not so on a Mac were Apple tools like the store circumvent the firewall rules I set up [1].
[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24838816
So I believe both platforms are problematic. Does Windows try to do way more data collection by default? Sadly yes. Is Mac without fault? Sadly no.
[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24838816
So I believe both platforms are problematic. Does Windows try to do way more data collection by default? Sadly yes. Is Mac without fault? Sadly no.
No it's the opposite: Windows is a functioning spyware.
Yes, functional spyware with broken UI. A dark mode explorer window is drawn in light mode for a split second and then painted black. It's ridiculous.
I see the same behavior on an external display connected MacBook with Safari. Split second day mode before dark mode.
Same for videos from YouTube in Safari when they go full screen.
I use Windows 10 for work and Mac OS for personal use and both have their share of quirkiness and bugs. Mac OS is way more mouse based UI and interestingly no one complains about it.
Same for videos from YouTube in Safari when they go full screen.
I use Windows 10 for work and Mac OS for personal use and both have their share of quirkiness and bugs. Mac OS is way more mouse based UI and interestingly no one complains about it.
Personally, I heavily rely on gesture-based navigation on MacBooks. An equivalent trackpad for Windows laptops is nowhere to be found. It's a huge selling point for me, and it's a shame that there's little-to-no competition in that regard.
I care about it, and if the software was available to buy I would pay a premium for it as I’ve done before. That’s why I landed on the Mac platform. In the “bad” old days, the only major developers were Mac die hards, and very little of the platform felt foreign or unconventional. Now, the only thing keeping me on the Mac platform is muscle memory and a few lucky (hardware) strikes.
Design is a team sport, so what you need to ask yourself is does the whole team prefer to use a native mac app vs browser? RIP sketch
Meh, "design is a team sport" - great, everyone gets to jump in and play decorator and backseat drive. There are a lot of people with knives, but that doesn't make them a brain surgeon.
My design team and myself will take the sanctity of a native app to create quality work any day versus a "design" free for all in the browser with everyone playing decorator.
My design team and myself will take the sanctity of a native app to create quality work any day versus a "design" free for all in the browser with everyone playing decorator.
Except teams benefits from Figma far more than on sketch. Design systems, plugins, multiplayer for holding critique/retros/planning, version control, etc put Figma far ahead of Sketch.
I manage a design team and there’s no way in hell we would go back to Sketch.
To even think that having a “native” app has any bearing isn’t accurate at all. Sketch is so slow compared to Figma. You aren’t using multiplayer everyday but when you do need it, there’s nothing like it.
I manage a design team and there’s no way in hell we would go back to Sketch.
To even think that having a “native” app has any bearing isn’t accurate at all. Sketch is so slow compared to Figma. You aren’t using multiplayer everyday but when you do need it, there’s nothing like it.
Adobe XD does all these things and has Miro integration for seamless collaboration and works in windows and Mac. Any reason why I would use Figma instead?
I think Adobe's business strategy is a compelling reason.
Knowing that they had a monopoly on creative software, they raised the prices to the point of completely locking out a significant portion of their userbase.
If they could, they would do the same to XD.
Knowing that they had a monopoly on creative software, they raised the prices to the point of completely locking out a significant portion of their userbase.
If they could, they would do the same to XD.
> plugins
Seeing you write this, a doubt creeps that you ever used Sketch.
Seeing you write this, a doubt creeps that you ever used Sketch.
Definitely agree these sort of tools only help you if you have a functioning team, but this goes across everything. Had a manager come close to what I would consider bullying in my Google Docs before, would have been a complete nightmare using Figma with him, I would have outright refused to use it.
But if your team itself is functioning well and has respect for each others input it works well.
But if your team itself is functioning well and has respect for each others input it works well.
First, to say Design is sport is stupid beyond comprehension, second, implementation and optimisation are not design. Decorate your apps and be happy, but please stop with this nonsense. Every design project has a starting concept, initial design idea generated from one person - the designer.
One. Not team.
>> First, to say Design is sport is stupid beyond comprehension
Agree to disagree (without calling it stupid beyond comprehension). Design is so much more than final UI. It's the whole experience, how it works and how it's distributed. And that involves a lot of stakeholders, not just one designer.
Agree to disagree (without calling it stupid beyond comprehension). Design is so much more than final UI. It's the whole experience, how it works and how it's distributed. And that involves a lot of stakeholders, not just one designer.
So why buy Herman Miller design, or Ive design. Implementation can include lot of stakeholders, and again this is not sport in any meaning. Definition of sport: An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.
Since when? I’m a mobile developer, which means I consume Figma designs, I don’t change them. And Sketch works much better for my needs.
[deleted]
A lot of Mac users do. We chose the platform because of it, among other things.
I hate that WhatsApp, Skype and other crap Electron apps that I’m forced to use because of other people can’t do simple things like propor multi language spell checking that macOS has had since day one and that every other app gets for free.
I hate that WhatsApp, Skype and other crap Electron apps that I’m forced to use because of other people can’t do simple things like propor multi language spell checking that macOS has had since day one and that every other app gets for free.
I think the killer feature of macs with Apple Silicon is that the iPad versions of Slack and Discord would "just work" and people wouldn't have to deal with Electron crap anymore.
I’ll believe the story that these will be any good when Catalyst apps will start behaving like native apps. If developers can’t bother making a native experience with frameworks that are meant to do this, I don’t think they will with an even simpler paradigm.
My canary in the coal mine: Apple’s own SF Symbols.
My canary in the coal mine: Apple’s own SF Symbols.
> start behaving like native apps
intuitively, it would seem apples answer is to make mac apps behave/look like ipad/catalyst appe (e.g big sur's uo redesign)
intuitively, it would seem apples answer is to make mac apps behave/look like ipad/catalyst appe (e.g big sur's uo redesign)
This has nothing to do with Catalyst. Apple Silicon macs will natively run the exact same binary as the iOS version, no Catalyst needed.
No. But a native iOS version will be even less (aka not at all) optimised for macOS than a catalyst app. My point is that devs using catalyst don’t respect any of the macOS idiosyncrasies so why would they when they write iOS apps?
An Electron app would still be better than a iOS version optimised for a big thumb.
An Electron app would still be better than a iOS version optimised for a big thumb.
Discord is made out of React native I think. The performance is incredible most of the times. Sometimes it goes crazy and uses 100% CPU for a long time as if there's a while loop somewhere.
And with Apple Silicon, Im not sure that the restriction right now is architecture. Swift supports both x86 and ARM right? The problem is that the interactions are different in the desktop OS and simply recompiling or running it on desktop would not be a great experience.
And with Apple Silicon, Im not sure that the restriction right now is architecture. Swift supports both x86 and ARM right? The problem is that the interactions are different in the desktop OS and simply recompiling or running it on desktop would not be a great experience.
Apple Silicon macs can run iOS/iPadOS binaries natively, no recompilation and no Catalyst needed. I think the experience of iPad apps will be just fine.
Until the companies running them disable the ability to run those…
I consider the built in spell check to be of the greatest features of MacOS and I'm furious when apps either change the way their inputs work so you lose the feature or even worse add their own dumbed down bespoke solution in it's place.
Worth noting Sketch broke spell check many versions back around the time I stopped using it.
Worth noting Sketch broke spell check many versions back around the time I stopped using it.
Both WhatsApp and Skype have web versions that, at least for me, work just fine. And Chrome's spellcheck is miles ahead of MacOS
>And Chrome's spellcheck is miles ahead of MacOS
Please substantiate this claim. To me, the opposite is true.
Please substantiate this claim. To me, the opposite is true.
> And Chrome's spellcheck is miles ahead of MacOS
But Chrome is a klackety resource hog compared to Safari.
Web versions of native apps always feel clunky in comparison and they're almost always missing features, like accessibility.
But Chrome is a klackety resource hog compared to Safari.
Web versions of native apps always feel clunky in comparison and they're almost always missing features, like accessibility.
> can’t do simple things like propor multi language spell checking
lol
lol
See? I need it bad.
I agree with you, and I think this is a pretty good signal that Sketch is REALLY feeling the heat from Figma, because they aren't offering a better argument besides "we're native". The bandwagon has clearly jumped off Sketch and onto Figma, and not because it's "fashionable", but because Figma is plain awesome.
The thing IMO that really killed Sketch was not being able to share Sketch files with non-Mac users and let them open them up. They should have at least created a Windows/Linux (or web) viewer. They don't need edit functionality but nearly always someone in the approval/feedback process of a mockup will not be on Mac.
It's just not realistic at larger orgs (or IMO smaller ones too) to expect everyone to be on a Mac.
Then came Figma which solved this problem completely.
It's just not realistic at larger orgs (or IMO smaller ones too) to expect everyone to be on a Mac.
Then came Figma which solved this problem completely.
> The thing IMO that really killed Sketch
Are we just accepting that Sketch is “dead” now? Genuinely curious. I realize Figma has been doing great things, but wasn’t under the impression that Sketch is over.
Are we just accepting that Sketch is “dead” now? Genuinely curious. I realize Figma has been doing great things, but wasn’t under the impression that Sketch is over.
I don't know if it's "dead" but I have known a bunch of teams that, within the past 18 months, all switched from Sketch to Figma, and I certainly don't know anyone that's switched the other direction, soooo...
That said, these were all website and mobile app design teams, and another commenter mentioned that Sketch is better for print design. Still, have to imagine that print is a shrinking part of the overall marketplace.
That said, these were all website and mobile app design teams, and another commenter mentioned that Sketch is better for print design. Still, have to imagine that print is a shrinking part of the overall marketplace.
All I know is a few (2 or 3) years ago I constantly got expense requests to cover sketch license renewals. It suddenly... stopped. We cover a Figma license but it never seems much.
We had at least 4 people in the team that ran a (poorly performing, annoying) VM with OSX just for sketch.
We had at least 4 people in the team that ran a (poorly performing, annoying) VM with OSX just for sketch.
Sketch has had an integrated cloud sharing feature for awhile. You click two buttons in the app, and you have a shareable, comment-able page or prototype.
Figma’s first-mover advantage is significant, though.
Figma’s first-mover advantage is significant, though.
Ridiculous statement. Sketch is very much alive and it can survive on Mac-only users for a long time going forward as well, if they decide to.
Am I the only one who doesn't think Apple have much interest in supporting classic MacOS apps in the future?
Back in the day we used to judge the viability of Apples new techon if the Adobe suite was using them. This was a big deal during the Classic to OS X switch and the PPC to Intel switch.
I'm convinced Apple sees the future of Macs as running iPad apps, Photoshop and Illustrator are already there. Just how many other classic Mac apps do you think Apple consider critical? I think I can name 8.
Back in the day we used to judge the viability of Apples new techon if the Adobe suite was using them. This was a big deal during the Classic to OS X switch and the PPC to Intel switch.
I'm convinced Apple sees the future of Macs as running iPad apps, Photoshop and Illustrator are already there. Just how many other classic Mac apps do you think Apple consider critical? I think I can name 8.
I haven't really been too worried about that. They're free to build apps that are simpler to use, but the technology and frameworks behind it still need to be in place. As long as Apple themselves need to build e.g. Xcode, they need to be focusing on allowing developers to build macOS apps.
Yeah this. I love Macs but I mostly develop on my Linux Workstation so my company’s been using Figma since March and I’d honestly forgotten about sketch
Yep. Our company switched to Figma and it's been leaps and bounds better for productivity. Having multiple people working on the same design file at the same time has been huge.
This isn't a property of native apps or web apps.
As someone who's worked on a lot of collaborative technology, I find it weird how most of the interest in collaborative editing is confined to the web. As I understand it, Figma's internal collaborative engine is written in C++ anyway.
As someone who's worked on a lot of collaborative technology, I find it weird how most of the interest in collaborative editing is confined to the web. As I understand it, Figma's internal collaborative engine is written in C++ anyway.
Collaboration all but requires being online (good offline collab is much harder to implement as you surely know), so that eliminates one of the main advantages of native apps.
Collaboration is also much more useful when you're not limited to only working with people using the same OS. Multi-platform distribution is built into web apps, but it takes a lot more effort to create good native apps on several platforms.
Also, of course, no need to install anything on the web, which is important for frictionless collaboration.
---
It's no surprise that both desktop and mobile OS-s are very much not optimized for cross platform development. It's a feature (for owners of those OS-s), not a bug.
Collaboration is also much more useful when you're not limited to only working with people using the same OS. Multi-platform distribution is built into web apps, but it takes a lot more effort to create good native apps on several platforms.
Also, of course, no need to install anything on the web, which is important for frictionless collaboration.
---
It's no surprise that both desktop and mobile OS-s are very much not optimized for cross platform development. It's a feature (for owners of those OS-s), not a bug.
If I recall correctly, Figma's entire UI is C++ compiled down to webassembly.
If they went to the trouble to write it in C++ why use the browser instead of QT?
Exactly for the sharing features people have been discussing. It may be OK for the design team to download the app, but product managers, devs, marketers and other stakeholders don't want to also have to go through the trouble of downloading the app.
A primary thing Figma understood better than pretty much anyone else is how collaboration among different teams (not just design) works in product development.
A primary thing Figma understood better than pretty much anyone else is how collaboration among different teams (not just design) works in product development.
I’d imagine zero-install was a big thing
And Rust
Yes they run it in web assembly
This sounds like hell to me as a designer.
It’s really not because multiplayer is there for walking through designs, leaving comments, or working with another designer. I work on a team of 10 and I don’t see anyone else in my designs unless I’m handing off to a dev or doing a review. At that point it’s amazing, as I can link anyone in our org a design and they can open it.
Check out Adobe XD, it supports simultaneously editing by a team right out of the box.
But it’s been a worse experience for your mobile developers.
Why?
Figma is not a viable alternative if you're anything but a digital designer.
There are still print designers, packaging designers, exhibit designers, illustrators, the list goes on. I don’t see Sketch as dead, if anything it’s been getting a lot of cool new features over the past months.
There are still print designers, packaging designers, exhibit designers, illustrators, the list goes on. I don’t see Sketch as dead, if anything it’s been getting a lot of cool new features over the past months.
Is Sketch doing anything for print? I haven't used it for a few years now and back then it was digital only.
Sketch isn't a print design tool, that is all still very locked up in Adobe with Affinity being the only real competitor. Not sure why it's being brought up in this context.
I thought that Adobe and Affinity are the only ones fighting in that front.
This is just one single-topic blog post on the Sketch blog. It is not a complete argument for using Sketch. It does present a complete overview of why someone would benefit from a native Mac app.
I don’t know what the bandwagon is doing, other than that I’m aware that Figma is also popular, but clearly cloud software has been contending with native for some time, each with their own advantages, and so it’s not surprising or concerning that software vendors of both software platform types would market the advantages of their chosen platform.
I don’t know what the bandwagon is doing, other than that I’m aware that Figma is also popular, but clearly cloud software has been contending with native for some time, each with their own advantages, and so it’s not surprising or concerning that software vendors of both software platform types would market the advantages of their chosen platform.
I don't know if they're feeling the heat since they seem like two different verticals. Sketch is a drawing app with support for some UI development workflows. Figma is workplace productivity software with support for some UI development workflows and drawing.
I love Sketch but it's closer to Illustrator or XD (at least, that's how I use it) than Figma. If they want to throw shade it should be at Adobe, since their interface is just better and app is faster/smaller/doesn't run six background daemons.
On a different note, I've heard multiple pitches where startups position themselves as "Figma for X" but never "Sketch for X." Figma is a platform that is building out into different markets, Sketch has much smaller applicability.
I love Sketch but it's closer to Illustrator or XD (at least, that's how I use it) than Figma. If they want to throw shade it should be at Adobe, since their interface is just better and app is faster/smaller/doesn't run six background daemons.
On a different note, I've heard multiple pitches where startups position themselves as "Figma for X" but never "Sketch for X." Figma is a platform that is building out into different markets, Sketch has much smaller applicability.
All I can say is I know of at least a couple of design teams that switched all of their workflows off Sketch and onto Figma, so seems like a direct competitor to me.
> It's clear users in general don't care about an app being pure Mac OS controls/SDKs/etc.
They may not put it in those terms, but they do. They can tell when an app feels 'weird' or slow (be it actually slow or just higher latency). That depends a lot on the user base for the specific app in question. The more 'casual' the user base, the less it matters.
Being native also allows you to get functionality for free that other users may depend on. In OSX it translates to things like scripts, or more often, assistive devices, like screen readers.
They may not put it in those terms, but they do. They can tell when an app feels 'weird' or slow (be it actually slow or just higher latency). That depends a lot on the user base for the specific app in question. The more 'casual' the user base, the less it matters.
Being native also allows you to get functionality for free that other users may depend on. In OSX it translates to things like scripts, or more often, assistive devices, like screen readers.
I like to write native apps (Swift).
I won’t go into why (as everyone here seems to be trying to convince everyone else, who aren’t really listening, anyway. I’m not really looking to change my viewpoint).
Figma is cool. I’m working with a designer, now, and we’ll see how it goes. Not sure I’d really say it was a direct Sketch competitor, though. I think Adobe Illustrator is Sketch’s biggest competitor, and that says a lot about Sketch.
I won’t go into why (as everyone here seems to be trying to convince everyone else, who aren’t really listening, anyway. I’m not really looking to change my viewpoint).
Figma is cool. I’m working with a designer, now, and we’ll see how it goes. Not sure I’d really say it was a direct Sketch competitor, though. I think Adobe Illustrator is Sketch’s biggest competitor, and that says a lot about Sketch.
What can Sketch do that Figma can't?
Work offline, Better font rendering
Better support for the built-in accessibility features of macOS.
I wonder how many people with visual accessibility issues would take a graphic design job
Accessibility features are used by people regardless of whether they have visual accessibility issues. For example, I (and many others–watch some WWDC presentations closely and you'll see this) use the "display zoom" feature during presentations and when doing UI work to focus on things. The feature where you wiggle the mouse cursor to make it big? That's an accessibility feature, but it got a prime spot at the keynote when it was announced. I have subtitles enabled all the time since it helps me catch things in videos if I miss what someone said. macOS has text-to-speech, which is quite useful to read me back things I write for grammatical errors or typos. Accessibility features can and are used by everyone. (Disclaimer: I have partial colorblindness and wear glasses.)
You can use voiceover as a way to add a lot of context and “color” to a UI. I make a big effort to support voiceover in my apps. In fact, most of the text that I translate is never seen by the user[0].
On the Mac, I also like to use tooltips, applying the same string as voiceover.
[0] https://github.com/RiftValleySoftware/ambiamara/blob/bbb1d98... (Note, also, that these voiceover strings have been localized in French, German, and Spanish).
On the Mac, I also like to use tooltips, applying the same string as voiceover.
[0] https://github.com/RiftValleySoftware/ambiamara/blob/bbb1d98... (Note, also, that these voiceover strings have been localized in French, German, and Spanish).
of all the features you mention, except TTS none depend on the app being written in a specific framework as far as I know ?
(and I don't remember TTS not working in e.g. Qt apps for instance - at least I know that I sometimes bash my keyboards repeatedly to stop the damn thing that I opened by whatever goddamn shortcut :D)
This was a direct response to your comment, so I was mainly focused on what accessibility features I use. However, one I missed but I use all the time is being able to control applications using accessibility APIs.
They could certainly take copywriting and proofing jobs.
Run natively on the Mac /s
Why /s though? It is a huge pro for some people.
Because it's already been mentioned a number of times in the thread and is a very major selling point (IMO).
Custom keyboard shortcuts
VS.Code users aren't exactly casual users and in the main are happy enough to use it as their main coding interface many hours per day (and yes I understand that this is HN so now there will be a bunch of people saying "I'm not happy).
I love VSCode, but Electron apps are still pretty brutal on battery life, so it’s hard to work for very long without being plugged in. I’d personally love a pure native version for that reason alone, but the feature set wins out for day to day usage since I work mostly from home anyways.
I love the things VSCode offers that its competition doesn’t. I can’t imagine working with any of the other available editors for the Mac. I hate how I feel like I’m working in a weird web app all day every day. I feel both simultaneously.
Give Panic's Nova a try:
https://nova.app
https://nova.app
Wanted to say I started taking a look yesterday and I’m not sure how I feel about it yet. But I don’t have my whole workflow set up yet. Thanks for the nudge, I’d been meaning to give it a look!
No vim plugin makes it DOA as far as I'm concerned
Compare it to plain vim and you'll be shocked at the responsiveness difference. I even find the jetbrains IDEs kinda laggy.
I’ve always found Jetbrains stuff really laggy, even when I tried Clion on my current maxed out 16” MBP, to be honest it’s one of the things that has always put me off their software. The text entry might not be laggy but the general UI has that “laggy Java” (sorry, I know it’s not a Java fault but I just associate it with Java GUI apps!) feel. Personally I find VS Code much more responsive on the whole.
I've been a software developer since the 1990s. I know how Vi(m) feels and I much prefer the affordances offered by VS.Code.
Ironically Jetbrains IDEs are Java, using Java Swing for the UI[1]! This is even less native than VS.Code where at least native widgets are used.
I guess this shows how much our impressions are formed by expectations!
[1] https://stackoverflow.com/a/12311981/280795
Ironically Jetbrains IDEs are Java, using Java Swing for the UI[1]! This is even less native than VS.Code where at least native widgets are used.
I guess this shows how much our impressions are formed by expectations!
[1] https://stackoverflow.com/a/12311981/280795
Swing is definitely not "less native" than Electron. The entire window is a web view in Electron apps. I believe Java Swing was even an officially supported UI toolkit on the Mac a long time ago.
Not in the way Cocoa is, but it had a PLAF coming from Apple at the time.
The menus in Swing aren't native but are in Electron.
Maybe Electron supports native menus, but VS Code certainly doesn't use them, at least on Windows and Linux.
Simple experimental proof: resize the window to be very small, and open a menu. The menu can't go outside the bounds of the window.
Simple experimental proof: resize the window to be very small, and open a menu. The menu can't go outside the bounds of the window.
What menus?
>"I even find the jetbrains IDEs kinda laggy."
On my laptop (6 core 3,9GHz 32GB RAM and NVME) VS Code is fast and responsive, still wastes lots of RAM though. Jetbrains tools meanwhile were way more laggy on the same setup.
On my laptop (6 core 3,9GHz 32GB RAM and NVME) VS Code is fast and responsive, still wastes lots of RAM though. Jetbrains tools meanwhile were way more laggy on the same setup.
VSCode users never seen snappy and well-made IDE. Most probably think "source code highlighting" + "project drawer" = IDE.
Just going to leave this here https://pavelfatin.com/typing-with-pleasure/
Just going to leave this here https://pavelfatin.com/typing-with-pleasure/
I just suck it up and adopt the tooling required by customer's IT, on private laptops I use Sublime instead, and pay for it.
And I dream the day that React Native for Windows/Mac team at Microsoft manages to force a VSCode rewrite.
And I dream the day that React Native for Windows/Mac team at Microsoft manages to force a VSCode rewrite.
It’s a huge mixed bag. Great and terrible at same time.
I still don’t think the vast majority of users care. Slowness is something separate and I’d agree that a laggy interface is an awful one, especially with a visual tool like Sketch. But I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone make that complaint about Figma.
It’s true, the vast majority of users don’t need accessibility features, but those who do absolutely cannot compromise on them.
I'm not involved with figma in any way, just a user. But from what I understand, it is written in c++ and uses webassembly. Some ui parts are in standard TS+css. [1]
There is absolutely no reason not to be responsive, low on memory and as powerful as a native app.
[1] https://www.figma.com/blog/webassembly-cut-figmas-load-time-...
There is absolutely no reason not to be responsive, low on memory and as powerful as a native app.
[1] https://www.figma.com/blog/webassembly-cut-figmas-load-time-...
The backend is rust I believe. But at the end of the day I've used figma and the UI isn't anywhere near as responsive as a native app. You might not care about this but some people do.
Totally agreed. And, although the site is definitely cool, isn't it kind of ironic? It's a paen to native-only Mac apps back in the System 9 days, when the developer experience and design language was totally different. Macs don't even look, or work, like this anymore.
I think it's great that this is what they want to focus on, but it's not very convincing as a business decision in general -- it feels like doubling down on the past.
I think it's great that this is what they want to focus on, but it's not very convincing as a business decision in general -- it feels like doubling down on the past.
As someone fortunate enough to wfh, works in both dev and ux, and uses Windows and Ubuntu, I couldn't agree more.
Nearly want to shoot myself every time I'm told, "Hey, I'm sending over the Sketch file" or "sigh An Illustrator again? I wish you had a mac w/ Sketch when you made these wires".
I can't blame the people who say that, but god damn just release a windows version. There's Lunacy for windows, but it's buggy as hell.
Call me old fashion, but I'm sticking to Illustrator for the time being
Nearly want to shoot myself every time I'm told, "Hey, I'm sending over the Sketch file" or "sigh An Illustrator again? I wish you had a mac w/ Sketch when you made these wires".
I can't blame the people who say that, but god damn just release a windows version. There's Lunacy for windows, but it's buggy as hell.
Call me old fashion, but I'm sticking to Illustrator for the time being
This will go well with the Daringfireball crowd but that’s about it.
I do like native apps and would prefer them all things being equal. But all things rarely are equal.
That’s why I use VSCode instead of Sublime. And Gmail instead of Apple Mail.
Instead of justifying why native apps are better they should really just explain why Sketch is better. None of the reasons they gave are compelling.
I do like native apps and would prefer them all things being equal. But all things rarely are equal.
That’s why I use VSCode instead of Sublime. And Gmail instead of Apple Mail.
Instead of justifying why native apps are better they should really just explain why Sketch is better. None of the reasons they gave are compelling.
Isn't sublime a cross-platform python-based app? Probably most of the innovation in modern text editors was at least inspired by TextMate.
Figma is eating them brutally. I'm a designer and everyone I know (and their companies) are moving away from Sketch.
Figma understood that the breakthrough of this market is to create a platform, not a tool. Building a native app is not going to help you win this market. That's for sure.
Seconded. We work closely with a design firm for our products, them and us, we've slowly all migrated to Figma to a point where all our design assets, branding assets, mockups are on Figma. Ironically being Mac only is one of the reason Sketch is losing against Figma. There was a gap in cross-platform collaborative design tools, Figma made the move, and did so with amazing UX. Sketch was, what I'd say, lazy when Figma was at it.
Can confirm, we've been using Sketch since very early days, long before it was popular, and every single designer we have knows it like the back of their hand. We made the switch last year to Figma (just to test), and now it's 100% Figma.
Sketch is a great individual tool, but Figma is a great organizational tool.
For Sketch to write this means they don't plan on competing with Figma, I assume because it would likely put them behind multiple years in R&D.
Sketch is a great individual tool, but Figma is a great organizational tool.
For Sketch to write this means they don't plan on competing with Figma, I assume because it would likely put them behind multiple years in R&D.
Adobe XD does everything Figma does from what I can tell and is cross platform and you can use Miro to get seamless collaboration via the web to share your Art boards. What is Figma's killer features?
Good for them staying native and not getting caught in a least-common denominator Electron hell.
People uses Macs because they want to use Macs and software that takes advantage of the reliability and consistency of that ecosystem.
People uses Macs because they want to use Macs and software that takes advantage of the reliability and consistency of that ecosystem.
> software that takes advantage of the reliability and consistency of that ecosystem
probably true ~4-5 years ago, but not so much today. Catalina broke a lot of apps (due to SIP?). Big Sur is likely to break even more existing apps. In one case, it was seen that Apple apps do not obey the same rules that third party developers must abide by (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24838816).
I use a mbp at this point because it's not Windows.
probably true ~4-5 years ago, but not so much today. Catalina broke a lot of apps (due to SIP?). Big Sur is likely to break even more existing apps. In one case, it was seen that Apple apps do not obey the same rules that third party developers must abide by (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24838816).
I use a mbp at this point because it's not Windows.
>> I use a mbp at this point because it's not Windows.
Precisely the same. I used to be a big fan of the Apple ecosystem. When Jobs said the customer doesn't know what they need, he was usually right... he of course was a gifted visionary. Apple has continued with the same mindset but without the gifted visionary, in some cases with comical decisions e.g., keyboard, touchbar, soldering SSD to logic boards with high failure rates).
Can't we just rustle up a few obscenely rich billionaires to donate a hundred million to develop an OS with a top priority of quality and usability rather than lock in.
Precisely the same. I used to be a big fan of the Apple ecosystem. When Jobs said the customer doesn't know what they need, he was usually right... he of course was a gifted visionary. Apple has continued with the same mindset but without the gifted visionary, in some cases with comical decisions e.g., keyboard, touchbar, soldering SSD to logic boards with high failure rates).
Can't we just rustle up a few obscenely rich billionaires to donate a hundred million to develop an OS with a top priority of quality and usability rather than lock in.
The harder part of this proposal might be finding a visionary who could lead the effort.
I'm 80% certain that my next computer is going to be either a desktop or a ThinkPad X1 running Arch. A lot of what I do doesn't require a Mac, and frankly I enjoy Linux more.
That's basically what I did. After my last Mac died a few years ago I dusted off an older Mac and purchased a new ThinkPad P50. I thought it would take me most of a couple years to get as comfortable with Linux as I was with macOS. Instead it took just one month for the ThinkPad to become my main driver and another two months before I mothballed the Mac.
The only thing I really, really miss is OmniGraffle.
The only thing I really, really miss is OmniGraffle.
I know. I'm loathe to give up my Mac specifically because of OmniGroup and their products. I'm hoping org-mode can become a replacement.
I'm considering that. Mac has really gone a direction I don't like, and I have being use Apple since the screen is B&W.
However, this is to be expected from organisations that is powered by one charismatic leader.
However, this is to be expected from organisations that is powered by one charismatic leader.
> People uses Macs because they want to use Macs and software that takes advantage of the reliability and consistency of that ecosystem
ehhh. I think if you did some analytics of “apps Mac users use” an absolute ton would be “a web browser and very little else”. I can think of very few truly native Mac apps I depend upon and that keep me on the platform.
What does keep me on Macs is that every now and then I need to compile an iOS app. Apple give me no choice. Aside from that I’d say a lot of developers choose Macs because they’re the least worst POSIX platform, not because Mac native apps are a shining beacon on a hill.
ehhh. I think if you did some analytics of “apps Mac users use” an absolute ton would be “a web browser and very little else”. I can think of very few truly native Mac apps I depend upon and that keep me on the platform.
What does keep me on Macs is that every now and then I need to compile an iOS app. Apple give me no choice. Aside from that I’d say a lot of developers choose Macs because they’re the least worst POSIX platform, not because Mac native apps are a shining beacon on a hill.
> What does keep me on Macs is that every now and then I need to compile an iOS app.
As a longtime Mac user, I really wish that Apple would make it possible to compile iOS apps on iPad. Not for myself, but for the developers who are only on the Mac for iOS development. I don't think it does anyone any good to force them to be in a place where they don't want to be. I have no ill will against iOS developers, but I also don't want them to transform the Mac into something non-Mac. Mac has always been a "niche" platform, and that's fine! Let the users who are here voluntarily stay, and let the users who are here only "by force" go to a platform that suits their needs better, perhaps iPad. If Xcode for iPad can facilitate that, I'm all in favor.
As a longtime Mac user, I really wish that Apple would make it possible to compile iOS apps on iPad. Not for myself, but for the developers who are only on the Mac for iOS development. I don't think it does anyone any good to force them to be in a place where they don't want to be. I have no ill will against iOS developers, but I also don't want them to transform the Mac into something non-Mac. Mac has always been a "niche" platform, and that's fine! Let the users who are here voluntarily stay, and let the users who are here only "by force" go to a platform that suits their needs better, perhaps iPad. If Xcode for iPad can facilitate that, I'm all in favor.
Just because you use non-native apps doesn't mean you like them. I mean, does anyone actually like Slack?
> I mean, does anyone actually like Slack?
Should I feel ashamed or something for saying yes? I hear all the bitching about how Electron is bloated, but I run Slack and VS Code all day and never have resource issues on my MBP.
Should I feel ashamed or something for saying yes? I hear all the bitching about how Electron is bloated, but I run Slack and VS Code all day and never have resource issues on my MBP.
No you dont have to be ashamed. If they run without any problems in your macbook pro then great. But they are massive resource hogs in my brother's PC where the RAM is limited to 8GB. Of course he complains that the slack app is quite heavy because he is not able to run a couple of other apps in parallel.
The solution we settled on is to run an android emulator and run slack and spotify in that. This restricts the usage to 500Mb and his PC is able to breathe a bit now
The solution we settled on is to run an android emulator and run slack and spotify in that. This restricts the usage to 500Mb and his PC is able to breathe a bit now
Slack on my computers with 4 workspaces is around 400-600mb of memory usage.
I haven't really run into any issues with slack. It works quickly enough for what I need it to do and it doesn't use up enough resources for me to care about.
I like Slack and use it heavily. I'm signed in to 22 Slack instances in my current instance on my 2017 MBP.
So I like Slack, the chat platform? I don’t. Do I like Slack, the Mac app? Honestly it’s fine. My problem isn’t with the app, it’s the amount of attention I have to give it. Making it native wouldn’t improve that.
When I open Slack it takes a few seconds for the messages to come up.
When I open Mimestream (a new native gmail app), I see my messages in an instant.
That’s enough for me to dislike Slack.
When I open Mimestream (a new native gmail app), I see my messages in an instant.
That’s enough for me to dislike Slack.
I find at least zooming in/out large project files to be much faster in Figma. Lack of good offline workflow sucks but the overall features and cross-compatibility means nearly everyone is moving to Figma.
Sketch isn’t bad software at all, but they are really losing out to the network effects of Figma. Design software isn’t like IDEs where everyone in an organisation can use their favourite one - orgs choose design tooling that is shared across the whole design team, and often used by the FE devs too to some degree.
I feel a little sorry for Sketch but if they are not going cross-platform, at this point the only thing Sketch can do to remain at least a little bit relevant is to develop features Figma doesn’t have, maybe some animation tools and scripting for more interactive prototypes, and find a niche in that.
Sketch isn’t bad software at all, but they are really losing out to the network effects of Figma. Design software isn’t like IDEs where everyone in an organisation can use their favourite one - orgs choose design tooling that is shared across the whole design team, and often used by the FE devs too to some degree.
I feel a little sorry for Sketch but if they are not going cross-platform, at this point the only thing Sketch can do to remain at least a little bit relevant is to develop features Figma doesn’t have, maybe some animation tools and scripting for more interactive prototypes, and find a niche in that.
I’m not sure I would feel sorry for them; doubling down on your one-platform stance while your customers are overwhelmingly voting with their feet and wallets for cross-platform support is just stupidity in my opinion.
They’ll have a core set of customers who will appreciate it, but I’m not sure they’re going to pay the bills just because you’ve convinced them stay, which they probably would’ve done anyway
They’ll have a core set of customers who will appreciate it, but I’m not sure they’re going to pay the bills just because you’ve convinced them stay, which they probably would’ve done anyway
It might also be that they have considered the cross-platform option...and found it not feasible.
They might have decided that it is easier to continue on the current path.
They might have decided that it is easier to continue on the current path.
I guess that's the flip side if you build on 100% Apple specific stack - Cocoa, Objective-C/Swift, Coregraphics etc. Porting your app to other platforms later won't be simple.
Maybe decision makers at Sketch were looking at stats like majority of designers use MacOS - while that's probably true, that's not the case for devs, product people etc - who are now all using Figma to a degree too. Once you've got that cross-team use of the same app, you're not going to want to go back.
Maybe decision makers at Sketch were looking at stats like majority of designers use MacOS - while that's probably true, that's not the case for devs, product people etc - who are now all using Figma to a degree too. Once you've got that cross-team use of the same app, you're not going to want to go back.
It could also be that the stats point to heavy MacOS use before. But trends change.
> Lack of good offline workflow sucks
This has just been solved: https://www.figma.com/blog/behind-the-feature-autosave/
Interesting timing on these articles getting published. Almost at exactly the same time, and almost polar opposites.
This has just been solved: https://www.figma.com/blog/behind-the-feature-autosave/
Interesting timing on these articles getting published. Almost at exactly the same time, and almost polar opposites.
"And thank you, Apple, for giving us a place to call home."
The underlying rendering tech is based on Apple frameworks so they are not "home". They are stuck. What a nice way of saying it.
Targetting a single platform and taking advantage of its features is totally fine for a small developer or niche app. It's a lot easier to get going, maintenance costs are lower.
However for a big app like Sketch cutting corners like that becomes a liability in the long term. Porting to another platform would mean rewriting the rendering layer or reimplementing the system frameworks to keep their designs work 1:1. It's now a huge strategic disadvantage.
The underlying rendering tech is based on Apple frameworks so they are not "home". They are stuck. What a nice way of saying it.
Targetting a single platform and taking advantage of its features is totally fine for a small developer or niche app. It's a lot easier to get going, maintenance costs are lower.
However for a big app like Sketch cutting corners like that becomes a liability in the long term. Porting to another platform would mean rewriting the rendering layer or reimplementing the system frameworks to keep their designs work 1:1. It's now a huge strategic disadvantage.
It's their way of sucking up to Apple to be featured in the next WWDC as a prime example of first-party software.
I don't think they will be ever featured, because they left AppStore and are selling their software directly, without paying Apple Tax.
These sorts of envy-dripping comments are appalling to read and really bring the tone of any discussion down a few notches.
They are not stuck, they are just being smart. All multi-platform tools are of lower fidelity and disjointed tooling, making it a horrible experience for a developer and a much lesser one for the user. When was the last time you saw a designed without a Mac? Adobe is sherlocking Sketch the same way MS is copying Slack. You really want each and every app on your PC to come with a full Node runtime? That is worse even than the infamous DLL-hell from the past. Enjoy it, I won't.
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I think platform specific frameworks that won't work anywhere else easily will be detrimental to Apple in the long term. I think it's ultimately in Apple's interest to try to make tooling that enables MacOS/iOS apps to work on other platforms too, including the web.
Even their own apps would benefit from this. What if iMessage and FaceTime were cross-platform? Short term, maybe it was a moat for Apple - but now there are so many other cross-platform apps which will slowly kill the Apple-only ones because of network effects (pronounced in chat/calling/social apps).
I think iMessage and FaceTime could have taken significant market share from WhatsApp and Zoom/Skype - this will become even more relevant when those apps become more platform-like (WeChat style).
Even their own apps would benefit from this. What if iMessage and FaceTime were cross-platform? Short term, maybe it was a moat for Apple - but now there are so many other cross-platform apps which will slowly kill the Apple-only ones because of network effects (pronounced in chat/calling/social apps).
I think iMessage and FaceTime could have taken significant market share from WhatsApp and Zoom/Skype - this will become even more relevant when those apps become more platform-like (WeChat style).
What Sketch is doing in the post is marketing their constraint as their strength.
Some reasons on why Sketch is not a good design tool:
1. Exclusion: Sketch was never cross-platform. There by excluding people. Design is all about inclusion. There have been numerous requests to make sketch available on windows. 2. Apple only: Sketch was made to design stuff for Apple Ecosystem and that mostly remains that way. 3. Cost: Sketch exlcudes people to design basis cost. People measure the cost of sketch as USD 99. However, the real cost is cost of owning a Mac and then owning a Sketch license. Owning a Windows/Linux machine with Figma / Xd is way cheaper and makes the tools of trade accesible to the masses.
As i contrast these with Figma Or XD or even InvisionStudio, the tools of trade are far more accesible to the masses.
A feature based comparison is not helpful as Sketch can catchup to Figma (is already doing so with Sketch Cloud).
A designers take.
Some reasons on why Sketch is not a good design tool:
1. Exclusion: Sketch was never cross-platform. There by excluding people. Design is all about inclusion. There have been numerous requests to make sketch available on windows. 2. Apple only: Sketch was made to design stuff for Apple Ecosystem and that mostly remains that way. 3. Cost: Sketch exlcudes people to design basis cost. People measure the cost of sketch as USD 99. However, the real cost is cost of owning a Mac and then owning a Sketch license. Owning a Windows/Linux machine with Figma / Xd is way cheaper and makes the tools of trade accesible to the masses.
As i contrast these with Figma Or XD or even InvisionStudio, the tools of trade are far more accesible to the masses.
A feature based comparison is not helpful as Sketch can catchup to Figma (is already doing so with Sketch Cloud).
A designers take.
> Design is all about inclusion.
Just pointing out that your post is built on this fallacy.
Just pointing out that your post is built on this fallacy.
Colleagues I work with swear by Figma, but five minutes after giving it yet another try for the N-th time I find myself needing to charge my suddenly depleted battery (even using Safari) and wanting to cut my wrists. Janky doesn’t even come close to describing the user experience of Figma, and I’m on a 2019 16” MBP. In my opinion, Figma really is that bad. On the flip side, Sketch Cloud sucks rocks so we share our sketch assets via git. I even pay for my own Sketch license so I can use it at work; for the quality and productivity, it’s a steal.
Interesting! On the same machine as you have, I find Figma to be OK in terms of performance (not as snappy as Sketch). The loading time kills me though. I also had to download the electron app because switching to a Figma tab noticeably locked up Chrome for a second or two.
You need to change the way you think about files with Figma.
In Sketch, ppl use to have everything in one huge file. Lots of variants, a/b tests, different flows. But with Figma, you need to make a library of shared components, and split everything into smaller files so you don't have to redownload the whole design every time you want to put a comment on something. This does require you to sub though.
Source: I'm helping companies setup their Figma processes and files structure so they can work effectively. This approach works the best.
In Sketch, ppl use to have everything in one huge file. Lots of variants, a/b tests, different flows. But with Figma, you need to make a library of shared components, and split everything into smaller files so you don't have to redownload the whole design every time you want to put a comment on something. This does require you to sub though.
Source: I'm helping companies setup their Figma processes and files structure so they can work effectively. This approach works the best.
Sketch performance feels like a web app. Figma feels native. On every platform. Go figure.
Figured. Its webassembly
By now, I'd treat Apple-exclusive app developers for Stockholm syndrome.
I used to build a Mac-only native app for real-time audio processing, which was great for battery life, snappy performance and had no latency. But the work that Apple pushed on me just to keep things running okay-ish across OS releases was too much to bear compared with the meager revenue of only serving 10% of the addressable market.
By now, my app is using a cross-platform C++ framework so that I can compile the same code for Windows, Linux and Mac. Windows and surprisingly Linux pay for development of new features, while Mac is more of a prestigious afterthought. Needless to say, I'm not using native Apple frameworks anymore and battery life on OS X has suffered. But finally, the same C++ code will compile nicely across OS X versions, the app is profitable, and I'm not stressed by every WWDC anymore.
And then when Epic showed me what I had feared all along - namely that Apple is happy to sacrifice their loyal developers in the name of profits - I was just glad that I had taken the jump off Apple-specific development tools early enough.
I used to build a Mac-only native app for real-time audio processing, which was great for battery life, snappy performance and had no latency. But the work that Apple pushed on me just to keep things running okay-ish across OS releases was too much to bear compared with the meager revenue of only serving 10% of the addressable market.
By now, my app is using a cross-platform C++ framework so that I can compile the same code for Windows, Linux and Mac. Windows and surprisingly Linux pay for development of new features, while Mac is more of a prestigious afterthought. Needless to say, I'm not using native Apple frameworks anymore and battery life on OS X has suffered. But finally, the same C++ code will compile nicely across OS X versions, the app is profitable, and I'm not stressed by every WWDC anymore.
And then when Epic showed me what I had feared all along - namely that Apple is happy to sacrifice their loyal developers in the name of profits - I was just glad that I had taken the jump off Apple-specific development tools early enough.
>Apple is happy to sacrifice their loyal developers in the name of profits
There are no product people left in charge at Apple. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4VBqTViEx4
Most of the product moves now are just BOM reductions or ways to milk more service revenue. Calling it now, the Native Mac OS App this blog post champions won't exist in 10 years. Apple will kill it because iPads and iPhones outnumber Macs, the norm for Apple now is to get a cut of software sales and the sort of Native app Sketch represents doesn't get them that cut.
The future of MacOS is it's the place you go to multitask "the iPad apps you know and love". This will be a bitter pill for myself and everyone here to swallow but if you believe I'm wrong then what you actually believe is that Tim Cook understands the value of an open operating system enough to justify not getting a cut on all those software sales, do you truly believe that?
There are no product people left in charge at Apple. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4VBqTViEx4
Most of the product moves now are just BOM reductions or ways to milk more service revenue. Calling it now, the Native Mac OS App this blog post champions won't exist in 10 years. Apple will kill it because iPads and iPhones outnumber Macs, the norm for Apple now is to get a cut of software sales and the sort of Native app Sketch represents doesn't get them that cut.
The future of MacOS is it's the place you go to multitask "the iPad apps you know and love". This will be a bitter pill for myself and everyone here to swallow but if you believe I'm wrong then what you actually believe is that Tim Cook understands the value of an open operating system enough to justify not getting a cut on all those software sales, do you truly believe that?
> Calling it now, the Native Mac OS App this blog post champions won't exist in 10 years.
People have been predicting doom for Apple from various angles since the 1980s and they always end up having to eat their shoes:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=500
If anything, Apple Silicon Macs will usher in a new era of Apple exclusivity, and you'll move on to predicting doom for their Next Big Thing. :)
People have been predicting doom for Apple from various angles since the 1980s and they always end up having to eat their shoes:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=500
If anything, Apple Silicon Macs will usher in a new era of Apple exclusivity, and you'll move on to predicting doom for their Next Big Thing. :)
Why is what I'm proposing doom? The iPad is a more popular and modern platform than MacOS, MacOs users should be happy they now get to take advantage of that beloved ecosystem. (Well that's what the PR will say anyway)
Think you're missing the point what I'm making and passing it off as just general Apple negativity.
Think you're missing the point what I'm making and passing it off as just general Apple negativity.
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> my app is using a cross-platform C++ framework ... Windows and surprisingly Linux pay for development of new features
Which app is that?
Which app is that?
Spatial Audio Designer + it's virtual sound card. As heard in Red Tails by Lucasfilm, for example. Or the Expendables 3 bluray.
LAWO hardware mixing desks are Linux based, so the broadcast world demands Linux tools.
But the whole thing started out as an Apple exclusive app to be used together with Pro Tools. Ironically, Pro Tools has also had lots of problems with new macOS releases, so when their Windows presence grew, we observed our most important customers jumping ship and decided to follow them.
The C++ framework is JUCE. I'm a big fan of its visual editor and how easily you can extend that to support your own GUI components.
LAWO hardware mixing desks are Linux based, so the broadcast world demands Linux tools.
But the whole thing started out as an Apple exclusive app to be used together with Pro Tools. Ironically, Pro Tools has also had lots of problems with new macOS releases, so when their Windows presence grew, we observed our most important customers jumping ship and decided to follow them.
The C++ framework is JUCE. I'm a big fan of its visual editor and how easily you can extend that to support your own GUI components.
Nice, is this something that’s not catered for by other (native) Mac apps?
If users have other options, that might explain the difference in your revenue across platforms.
If users have other options, that might explain the difference in your revenue across platforms.
As far as I know, we're the only ones offering this. Both on Windows and on Mac. We used to have healthy profits on Mac before the problems started. Then, as our customers moved from Mac to Windows, so did our revenue.
I was with you until you mentioned Epic. What Epic did was a violation of a contract in a way it knew would bring about a confrontation. The judge hearing the case agreed that it was purely self-inflicted pain by Epic.
To be clear, many App Store rules seem arbitrary and ill defined (and enforced), but Epic is not the one to support here for what it did.
To be clear, many App Store rules seem arbitrary and ill defined (and enforced), but Epic is not the one to support here for what it did.
I agree that Epic is not innocent here. But what I worried about was Apple's reaction to them. Kicking Epic out is OK, but when they decided to use Epic's Unreal Engine customers as leverage by threatening to prevent future security updates of the engine, that was a clear sign that the current Apple management does not value the indie studios that build the apps.
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Rosa Parks broke rules as well.
I believe users don't actually care about the Native only features, and rather they care more about producing great designs, through a delightful process, in effective collaboration with their teammates. As opposed to focusing on how Sketch tackles these bigger picture user goals, they talk about their love for Native apps, with contrived examples: what percentage of users actually care about using the OSX dictionary while working? They took out a bunch of space to show a user using the dictionary for the word "reading" - a use case that likely doesn't resonate with 99.9% of their users.
A common ego-driven thinking mistake I catch myself making: I subconsciously push myself to believe a false narrative that supports my previous decisions so that I don’t appear stupid in front of my peers and so that I don’t throw away previous work. I think Sketch is making this mistake.
It's tough. When you've raised money and have so much external pressures to succeed in the way you said you would when you raised money - it's tough to own mistakes and honestly, objectively analyze your work.
I sincerely hope Sketch does well in the coming years, their work has benefitted me tremendously, but I feel their focus is off at the moment.
A common ego-driven thinking mistake I catch myself making: I subconsciously push myself to believe a false narrative that supports my previous decisions so that I don’t appear stupid in front of my peers and so that I don’t throw away previous work. I think Sketch is making this mistake.
It's tough. When you've raised money and have so much external pressures to succeed in the way you said you would when you raised money - it's tough to own mistakes and honestly, objectively analyze your work.
I sincerely hope Sketch does well in the coming years, their work has benefitted me tremendously, but I feel their focus is off at the moment.
> what percentage of users actually care about using the OSX dictionary while working? They took out a bunch of space to show a user using the dictionary for the word "reading" - a use case that likely doesn't resonate with 99.9% of their users.
Indeed, what a ridicolous example that is! I've not once used the built in dictionary on purpose, only clicked it by mistake. And they chose the word "reading" to highlight some sort of usefulness?
I love Sketch and am a paying user with our company, but this article and discussion does not leave me hopeful for a bright future.
Indeed, what a ridicolous example that is! I've not once used the built in dictionary on purpose, only clicked it by mistake. And they chose the word "reading" to highlight some sort of usefulness?
I love Sketch and am a paying user with our company, but this article and discussion does not leave me hopeful for a bright future.
I wouldn't be proud to keep developing on Apple's platforms considering they're an utter pain these days to continue to support as well as them being outwardly hostile.
I wouldn't bank my company's existence on a another company that could not care less if I existed. Much less would I praise and bend over backwards to promote someone else's products other than my own in my marketing materials like this.
What a bizarre corporate decision.
I wouldn't bank my company's existence on a another company that could not care less if I existed. Much less would I praise and bend over backwards to promote someone else's products other than my own in my marketing materials like this.
What a bizarre corporate decision.
If you have a Mac-only product and a good relationship with Apple, IMO their support can be invaluable. Getting featured and the like is very helpful.
Smart companies would, and they do. Cross-platform is the worst of all worlds. Looks awful on all platforms.
> For us, the ultimate benefit of being a native macOS app is that it puts the choice in your hands.
Except the choice of using another brand of computer.
Except the choice of using another brand of computer.
And this is why I choose not to use Sketch.
In the current world where Apple's computer choices are so restricted, locking yourself into that platform seems a bad idea. I was a Mac only user for about 19 years but was forced to use PCs again recently because Apple just didn't sell a machine the level of performance I need for 3D/Video work, even if money were no object. I mean they sell the Mac Pro again now but it's embarrassing how much it's put to shame for a fraction of the price when you can just use gaming GPUs for a CUDA render engine.
Figma has been a godsend allowing me to do my 2D design work on any platform.
Figma has been a godsend allowing me to do my 2D design work on any platform.
> Apple just didn't sell a machine the level of performance I need for 3D/Video work, even if money were no object.
What level of performance do you need and how does the latest Mac Pro with AfterBurner and whatnot fall short of it?
What level of performance do you need and how does the latest Mac Pro with AfterBurner and whatnot fall short of it?
Sorry that statement was when iMac Pro was their only contemporary machine which is when I built my current PC system which still outperforms the current iMac Pro by a large margin.
Most of my work is in OctaneRender
If I were to do a build today:
I'd buy Threadripper 24 core = £1245
For Apple this would be 24 Core Xeon from Apple = £6000, just for the processor on top of the base price of £5000
I'd buy RTX 3090 (OctaneBench score 670) £1399
For Apple Radeon Pro Vega II Duo (OctaneBench score 412) £5200, I could buy 3 3090's for that price...
It's just no contest, £3500 machine outperforming something over £16,000
Most of my work is in OctaneRender
If I were to do a build today:
I'd buy Threadripper 24 core = £1245
For Apple this would be 24 Core Xeon from Apple = £6000, just for the processor on top of the base price of £5000
I'd buy RTX 3090 (OctaneBench score 670) £1399
For Apple Radeon Pro Vega II Duo (OctaneBench score 412) £5200, I could buy 3 3090's for that price...
It's just no contest, £3500 machine outperforming something over £16,000
Anyone at Sketch reading this, don't be discouraged by the naysayers here. Stick with cold hard evidence and you can't go wrong. Is Sketch faster than Figma? Does it alt-tab faster, due to not having to swap in the entire Chromium browser? Can you scroll through complex designs faster? Does any of this translate into user conversions or retention?
And maybe also look at some other cold hard evidence: how many new users are you onboarding compared to figma? How many users are involved in a design process that aren't using mac? How much time is saved when iterating over a design with stakeholders if all stakeholders can directly provide feedback in the tool?
One thing I really appreciate about Sketch over Figma for my solo projects is that it’s offline-first. Call me old fashioned but I don’t want my designs or the app I use to design to be so strongly tethered to the web.
Totally agree on this, Paying for Sketch once, has allowed me to used it for years, largely on solo/non collaborative work
You can't pay for it once if you use it as a team because a file made on the latest version of the app can't be opened in older versions so all it takes is one person on your team to be out of sync with versions and you need to pay.
It's a generous subscription, but it's still basically a subscription once you're not working in a silo.
It's a generous subscription, but it's still basically a subscription once you're not working in a silo.
Obviously they’re feeling the heat from Figma which is browser-based.
I do absolutely agree that native apps are a much better experience. I prefer Paw over postman every time for this reason too.
However creating a Sketch plugin which downloads a simple JSON was an absolute nightmare.
I do absolutely agree that native apps are a much better experience. I prefer Paw over postman every time for this reason too.
However creating a Sketch plugin which downloads a simple JSON was an absolute nightmare.
I think that the pandemic really accelerated this. Our team uses Sketch, but we're quickly coming up on a project that'll involve a lot of collaboration, and Sketch simply won't be able to handle it. If we were in person, that would be different, but we aren't, and so I'm trying to get us Figma licenses.
That is the core difference.
When you develop with native you get performance and UI for free. When you develop with the web you get.. the web.
This is also why people fundamentally disagree on whether one or the other is good: they have different outcomes that fit different needs.
Obviously if collaboration is needed, being in web technology helps a lot since you're already inside a communication platform.
If your need is "single person focus" then that brings no value.
When you develop with native you get performance and UI for free. When you develop with the web you get.. the web.
This is also why people fundamentally disagree on whether one or the other is good: they have different outcomes that fit different needs.
Obviously if collaboration is needed, being in web technology helps a lot since you're already inside a communication platform.
If your need is "single person focus" then that brings no value.
I've used Sketch for years but haven't renewed my license which expired in August. I still like it to create some very quick mockups (less than an hour). But Figma is the go-to UI tool now, especially for teams, but even for a single designer like me. Their development pace is insane. They just released component variants: https://twitter.com/MaxBrunel/status/1320768394153570305
Weirdly enough, in terms of performance, the Figma Electron app feels slower to me than the Figma web app (in Chrome). Go figure. But it still feels just as quick as Sketch, so performance is not a criteria for choosing Sketch over Figma. I made the full switch only recently but it's a no-brainer. Plus, it's free.
Weirdly enough, in terms of performance, the Figma Electron app feels slower to me than the Figma web app (in Chrome). Go figure. But it still feels just as quick as Sketch, so performance is not a criteria for choosing Sketch over Figma. I made the full switch only recently but it's a no-brainer. Plus, it's free.
I've been a Sketch user longer than most, think I started around V2 when Adobe discontinued Fireworks.
Until very recently I would have championed how critical it is for tools like this to be native apps but honestly Figma has proven that wrong, it just blows Sketch completely out of the water in terms of performance, stability and collaboration.
To make matters worse Apple just doesn't offer a machine powerful enough for the 3D part of my work, even if I spent $7000 with Apple I'd still get significantly better performance paying around $3000 for a PC build so Figma is a godsend working across all the platforms I use and all the platforms my coworkers use.
This pitch seems even more surreal as Apple moves away from MacOS, these technologies that the Sketch team are talking about being so important are clearly considered the past by Apple and technology like catalyst being the future. I honestly can't shake the feeling that a not insignificant part of Apple considers the future of the Mac as the place you go to run multiple iPad apps and because of that the technology Sketch is built with will eventually be discontinued within 10 years.
Not to mention, they've had 4 years since Figma's launch to know they need a collaboration feature shipped, it's been "Coming Soon" for years now. I actually presumed they were just doing a full webtech rewrite but judging from this it's just that writing those kind of features into a native app is a gigantic task.
Really a professional tool in 2020 that doesn't have Google Docs style collaboration is a broken tool, it's very difficult to work with remote workers without having presence within the documents.
Until very recently I would have championed how critical it is for tools like this to be native apps but honestly Figma has proven that wrong, it just blows Sketch completely out of the water in terms of performance, stability and collaboration.
To make matters worse Apple just doesn't offer a machine powerful enough for the 3D part of my work, even if I spent $7000 with Apple I'd still get significantly better performance paying around $3000 for a PC build so Figma is a godsend working across all the platforms I use and all the platforms my coworkers use.
This pitch seems even more surreal as Apple moves away from MacOS, these technologies that the Sketch team are talking about being so important are clearly considered the past by Apple and technology like catalyst being the future. I honestly can't shake the feeling that a not insignificant part of Apple considers the future of the Mac as the place you go to run multiple iPad apps and because of that the technology Sketch is built with will eventually be discontinued within 10 years.
Not to mention, they've had 4 years since Figma's launch to know they need a collaboration feature shipped, it's been "Coming Soon" for years now. I actually presumed they were just doing a full webtech rewrite but judging from this it's just that writing those kind of features into a native app is a gigantic task.
Really a professional tool in 2020 that doesn't have Google Docs style collaboration is a broken tool, it's very difficult to work with remote workers without having presence within the documents.
I don't get it. Reading through their reasons to love native I kept thinking, "I don't use that feature".
Finder? A file browser exists in every OS and browsers support browsing file systems well. I have so many thousands of files at this point, using a file browser isn't an advantage to me.
Time Machine? I've never used it because my thousands of files have been stored in a cloud sync app for a decade and I don't think about backups anymore.
Keyboard shortcuts? Well, maybe I should do more of this, but I don't create many of my own. I prefer the command line, actually.
Drag toolbar items around? I'd rather learn their original locations so I don't have to customize everytime I install something.
I'll stop there. I actually enjoy some native apps but even those I typically wish they weren't native. What if I want to run them on my Chromebook for a bit? What if I decide I can't drop the money on a Mac anymore and go for Linux? What if I don't like how the ecosystem locks me in going forward? Today I love my Mac, but I'm not sure I'll still love it tomorrow. Web based and cross platform software gives me more choice.
Finder? A file browser exists in every OS and browsers support browsing file systems well. I have so many thousands of files at this point, using a file browser isn't an advantage to me.
Time Machine? I've never used it because my thousands of files have been stored in a cloud sync app for a decade and I don't think about backups anymore.
Keyboard shortcuts? Well, maybe I should do more of this, but I don't create many of my own. I prefer the command line, actually.
Drag toolbar items around? I'd rather learn their original locations so I don't have to customize everytime I install something.
I'll stop there. I actually enjoy some native apps but even those I typically wish they weren't native. What if I want to run them on my Chromebook for a bit? What if I decide I can't drop the money on a Mac anymore and go for Linux? What if I don't like how the ecosystem locks me in going forward? Today I love my Mac, but I'm not sure I'll still love it tomorrow. Web based and cross platform software gives me more choice.
> Time Machine? I've never used it because my thousands of files have been stored in a cloud sync app for a decade and I don't think about backups anymore.
I’m basing the following purely on your words in this comment. Does your cloud sync app support syncing or syncing with backups, where file version history exists for a long duration and files are stored (even the locally deleted ones) till it runs out of space (and initiates cleanup at that point)? If yes, that may be ok (though still not comparable to a local backup that could be a lot faster depending on the need). If not, then it’s nowhere close to what Time Machine offers (or what a backup application like SuperDuper! or Carbon Copy Cloner with history support offers).
I’m basing the following purely on your words in this comment. Does your cloud sync app support syncing or syncing with backups, where file version history exists for a long duration and files are stored (even the locally deleted ones) till it runs out of space (and initiates cleanup at that point)? If yes, that may be ok (though still not comparable to a local backup that could be a lot faster depending on the need). If not, then it’s nowhere close to what Time Machine offers (or what a backup application like SuperDuper! or Carbon Copy Cloner with history support offers).
Is this attempting to throw some shade on Figma to counteract lost sales?
Presumably - Sketch is great software, well built, but the fact that in late 2020 they still have to write "And soon, the ability to collaborate in real-time" is the the best counter-argument to building native for me personally.
This is somewhat orthogonal, but I don’t understand the draw of real-time collaboration.
As a designer, I’d much rather collaborate via the Git-like system of Abstract, committing changes and merging pull requests than have things happening elsewhere in the file I’m working on with no versioning or notification.
Real-time collaboration has never been in demand among developers, has it?
As a designer, I’d much rather collaborate via the Git-like system of Abstract, committing changes and merging pull requests than have things happening elsewhere in the file I’m working on with no versioning or notification.
Real-time collaboration has never been in demand among developers, has it?
Collaboration doesn’t necessarily mean designing at the same time, it’s not really how any designers I know use it. It’s being able to walk through a design, leave comments, use it for quickly showing off an idea within a file, having another designer point you to a shared component/asset/prototype. We even use it for retrospectives and hangouts.
I think the reason that people want real-time collaboration has been that merging diffs, which is already a hassle for code, has historically not really been possible for designers. With realtime collaboration, you can have people working in parallel without having to solve the merging problem.
Real time collaboration is hard to get right so it not being in demand might be a chicken and egg problem.
VSCode's liveshare feature is getting very close though and it does feel great to attack a challenge together from time to time.
VSCode's liveshare feature is getting very close though and it does feel great to attack a challenge together from time to time.
Ability to collaborate in real-time is not something exclusive to web apps.
Correct, but as a feature it is exclusive to "apps other than Sketch"
of course not, but the effort to bring real-time collaboration to native apps is much higher, e.g. MS Office's still-poor current experience compared with Google Docs's capabilities 5 years ago
Not really. It all comes down to a network protocol to sync changes. I collaborated with others just fine in desktop-first apps like CounterStrike or Diablo long before web became a viable platform.
The reason MS Office struggles with this is that rebuilding an app that wasn't originally supposed to work in such mode is way harder than building from scratch, and they probably don't really need it that much to push themselves in such an adventure.
The reason MS Office struggles with this is that rebuilding an app that wasn't originally supposed to work in such mode is way harder than building from scratch, and they probably don't really need it that much to push themselves in such an adventure.
Counter Strike and Diablo are built with collaboration (multiplayer) in mind.
How does the existence of Google Docs and Word say anything about how hard it is to create real-time collaboration on a web application versus a native application?
It doesn't. It's a non-sequitur.
There’s no technical reason why that would be true. What is true is if you have an app and doc format that weren’t designed for real-time collaboration, it’ll be really hard to retrofit, regardless of your choice of app platform.
It'd take a lot for me to leave Figma for another tool, performances are rock-solid on my 2015 low-end MBP in the browser, granted I'm not working on the most complex UIs but I've yet to see limitations.
I do not miss Sketch one bit.
I do not miss Sketch one bit.
Feels like it. Don’t get me wrong, I think sketch is great, but no way i’m going into apple’s walled garden voluntarily. Very happy that figma works on linux.
So you prefer to be locked in to a server that really serves someone else? [0]
At least, with Sketch/macOS the code is executed on the device you can control (to a degree).
[0]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-s...
At least, with Sketch/macOS the code is executed on the device you can control (to a degree).
[0]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-s...
I want to get things done. I value concrete benefits now versus theoretical potential benefits in the future. I'm looking for tools to help me get work done and not a religious philosophy.
That's exactly how China become an economical superpower, while at the same being environmentally irresponsible and lacking any semblance of human rights. People just wanted cheap stuff that gets the work done, rather than what's right.
By paying for any tool you are strengthening its position and philosophy, whether you care about it or not.
By paying for any tool you are strengthening its position and philosophy, whether you care about it or not.
Since you want to make it political. It's how every country ever became an economic superpower. Then many decided to clean up their acts since they could divert resources to it at little relative cost. The countries that tried to do the right thing from the beginning didn't get into that club. Most of them then were destroyed by the superpowers in one conflict or another. Moral of that story is to be pragmatic until you're at the top since otherwise it won't much matter.
Sketch is not libre software, so there's not much difference as long as you can export.
There is a whole world of difference. Figma's servers can be down when you need it to work, developers might want to 'phase out' the function you need, or introduce some changes that would totally break your workflow, and you will be absolutely powerless to do anything about it but conform.
With locally running app you control when and where the app works, and you have way more options when developer introduces some changes that don't fit you.
With locally running app you control when and where the app works, and you have way more options when developer introduces some changes that don't fit you.
Meh. I can't open any of our old sketch files at work because I don't have a valid license for a version that works on the newest OS. All the same as being locked out of a server in the moment.
This does not make any sense, newer versions of Sketch open old files just fine, and licences are valid for any version.
Maybe you were trying to say that you can't open new sketch files because your version of macOS doesn't support latest versions of Sketch? That is, indeed, a problem. However, if you work only with internal files, you can simply abstain from upgrading to new version and keep working on the version that works for you. Moreover, Sketch licences do not 'expire', you simply can't receive updates any longer. So you can still work with your files as long as you need, not relying on someone else's actions.
Maybe you were trying to say that you can't open new sketch files because your version of macOS doesn't support latest versions of Sketch? That is, indeed, a problem. However, if you work only with internal files, you can simply abstain from upgrading to new version and keep working on the version that works for you. Moreover, Sketch licences do not 'expire', you simply can't receive updates any longer. So you can still work with your files as long as you need, not relying on someone else's actions.
Except one is your choice, the other you have no control over?
Not to mention sensitive design documents that must stay on-prem can't be uploaded to cloud services like Figma (I don't know if this is possible to do in Figma somehow? I've never looked into it)
It seems like “pride” should be reserved for things like acting ethically, being environmentally friendly, treating employees well, making a positive impact on the world.
The platform you chose to build on is more of a business decision. One that I’m guessing Sketch is increasingly trying to rationalize to themselves.
Being proud they build a native app isn’t going to help them compete with Figma.
The platform you chose to build on is more of a business decision. One that I’m guessing Sketch is increasingly trying to rationalize to themselves.
Being proud they build a native app isn’t going to help them compete with Figma.
It’s a nice idea to think that pride is about acting ethically like how you described, but technically, the definition is “a feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements”. So as long as it’s not about something that they haven’t done themselves, they can feel proud of it.
They might not be able to compete with Figma, but to me personally, I definitely appreciate native apps way more than shells around web based one, which is why I prefer Sketch to Figma.
They might not be able to compete with Figma, but to me personally, I definitely appreciate native apps way more than shells around web based one, which is why I prefer Sketch to Figma.
I moved my company away from Sketch to Figma and one of the big differentiators was that folks who don't use macOS on our team can't use sketch, at all.
In general, I think it is a mistake to project technology choices as a user benefit.
Particularly when it comes to trying to rank against the modern web. Especially given the testimony of Figma users ITT, because they suggest cross platform availability as the true driving value.
One thing I’d point out is Sketch is acting all lovey about Apple’s awesome APIs right now, but they left the App Store with great bitterness a few years ago.
Those fees, as Apple has stated, go in part to paying for these APIs.
And by leaving the App Store Sketch also restricted user licensing as well.
Particularly when it comes to trying to rank against the modern web. Especially given the testimony of Figma users ITT, because they suggest cross platform availability as the true driving value.
One thing I’d point out is Sketch is acting all lovey about Apple’s awesome APIs right now, but they left the App Store with great bitterness a few years ago.
Those fees, as Apple has stated, go in part to paying for these APIs.
And by leaving the App Store Sketch also restricted user licensing as well.
Reminds me of Blackberry that decided to stick to keyboard and went bankrupt.
Users don’t care about native or not , they care only about innovation.
Users don’t care about native or not , they care only about innovation.
Hence why Visual Studio Code destroyed the editor world. As an editor it was nothing special at all; at that time it was just intellisense that blew it up IMO. People were willing to eat non-native solely for intellisense.
By now VSC has developed a moat with their incredible velocity for delivering new features, like voice chat, shared sessions, git + docker + debugger integration, etc.
By the time Nova came out they looked incredibly behind. The front page advertising their app looks cluttered with catch-up features.
By now VSC has developed a moat with their incredible velocity for delivering new features, like voice chat, shared sessions, git + docker + debugger integration, etc.
By the time Nova came out they looked incredibly behind. The front page advertising their app looks cluttered with catch-up features.
This is all true, but VSCode also had a lot of money thrown at it in terms of Microsoft paying multiple teams of developers.
That is what nova couldn’t compete with.
That is what nova couldn’t compete with.
I remember Monaco , the actual Editor inside VS Code being developed while I was in my first year of Computing Software Bachelor.
3 years later they released VS Code Alpha.
They spent millions on it.
3 years later they released VS Code Alpha.
They spent millions on it.
Millions in 3 years could mean less than 5 engineers. Don’t startups typically put more ambition into their bets?
Large Corporation are not startups.
Teams in enterprise don’t have the freedom to innovate the same way startups do.
5 people for something that could never see the light , even in a multi billion dollar , was very risky and lot of money.
Obviously it’s now 1000% recouped.
Teams in enterprise don’t have the freedom to innovate the same way startups do.
5 people for something that could never see the light , even in a multi billion dollar , was very risky and lot of money.
Obviously it’s now 1000% recouped.
It has been way more than that. (Based on conversations with a team member)
I care about native or not. I do not want inconsistent slow UI that overheats my laptop and kills its battery as if I am streaming 4K video.
Problem with that statement in this context is, that the web based solution Figma is actually more performant than the native Sketch.
Separate point, but I absolutely loathe on-screen keyboards. They reduce my phone typing speed to literally 5% of what it used to be on my old Nokia or Blackberry.
Case in point - this comment would have taken me no more than 20 seconds to type, compared with over a minute on this ridiculous iPhone keyboard that gets every third or fourth letter wrong, and just randomly decides to capitalise words in the middle of a sentence.
I’ve been gifted my last few phones, but the next one I buy, I will seriously consider one with a hardware keyboard.
Case in point - this comment would have taken me no more than 20 seconds to type, compared with over a minute on this ridiculous iPhone keyboard that gets every third or fourth letter wrong, and just randomly decides to capitalise words in the middle of a sentence.
I’ve been gifted my last few phones, but the next one I buy, I will seriously consider one with a hardware keyboard.
Users may (or may not!) say that they don't care about native apps... but they absolutely notice and care about whether the app is slow and awkward. Native apps are much nicer to use than the lowest-common-denominator garbage you get otherwise.
Users care all else being equal, but the point of this thread is that Sketch is not equal to Figma and being native isn't enough to overcome the difference.
This is great, but I no longer feel that the macOS HIG represents usable design for anybody. Apple's native apps are confusing and inconsistent. XCode is perhaps the worst offender. (Is that because it's okay to ship sub-par experiences to developers? )
My opinion is that Google's UX is now best in class -- things like Google Docs that are just nearing perfection that everyone seems to have no trouble with. Youtube would be another example of a highly effective UI.
I do think native is quite overrated :)
My opinion is that Google's UX is now best in class -- things like Google Docs that are just nearing perfection that everyone seems to have no trouble with. Youtube would be another example of a highly effective UI.
I do think native is quite overrated :)
I never miss an opportunity to publicly restate just how god-awful XCode is. I think it is literally the worst developer tool I have ever come across. I don’t think I have ever heard one good thing said about it.
Coming mostly from a Windows desktop background, I only started developing for Apple devices late on. Holy shit, I can’t believe people have been putting themselves through that horrible experience for the better part of two decades.
Coming mostly from a Windows desktop background, I only started developing for Apple devices late on. Holy shit, I can’t believe people have been putting themselves through that horrible experience for the better part of two decades.
I'm the same and have been very disapointed with the whole Apple developer experience. Coming from C#/Visual Studio/Resharper to Xcode has been a huge step backwards. It's not just the tooling either, the documentation is nowhere near as comprehensive.
Having said that I despair at what Windows has become.
Having said that I despair at what Windows has become.
People who use Xcode long enough usually get through the phase where they hate it with every fiber of their being. It's like Stockholm syndrome, except you realize your captor wants you to be happy but is also kind of insane.
> It's like Stockholm syndrome, except you realize your captor wants you to be happy but is also kind of insane.
I love that metaphor!
The main issue I have with Xcode, is that it is buggy as hell. I was hoping Xcode 12 would address this, but it’s just as bad as its predecessors.
I love that metaphor!
The main issue I have with Xcode, is that it is buggy as hell. I was hoping Xcode 12 would address this, but it’s just as bad as its predecessors.
I think if you only use XCode and really get used to it through and through, it could be a good tool. But it is so unintuitive it's staggering, and does not have terribly advanced features for an IDE.
I think if you use Xcode enough you can come to like it. What it does well it does really well–I have yet to see something that bundles as many good, advanced tools for building, debugging, and profiling in one pretty package as Xcode does. Most of the hate for Xcode seems to (rightfully) be aimed at its instability when working with things like codesigning, devices, or source control–IMO this this because they have a different process internally for their use than external developers. If you really understand who Xcode is aimed at (Apple) and how it is supposed to work (Apple's workflows) you can generally understand it.
> things like Google Docs that are just nearing perfection
I'm completely baffled by this statement. The Google Docs UI hasn't changed since it was released ten years ago and it's just an imitation of Microsoft Word from the mid-nineties. What is good or special about it?
I'm completely baffled by this statement. The Google Docs UI hasn't changed since it was released ten years ago and it's just an imitation of Microsoft Word from the mid-nineties. What is good or special about it?
All else equal, I'd say its a good thing when user interfaces don't change.
The simplicity of the collaboration features was a huge game changer at the time, and it's still best-in-class and very easy.
The simplicity of the collaboration features was a huge game changer at the time, and it's still best-in-class and very easy.
Finding specific documents from all different people/domains when you have hundreds, with obfuscated urls, is a nightmare with docs/sheets. There is zero organisation.
This is so true.
They are obviously trying - I keep seeing things like workspaces and pinning docs that are obviously experiments in trying to fix it. But not there yet!
I do agree that the Google Suite of tools are very usable though.
They are obviously trying - I keep seeing things like workspaces and pinning docs that are obviously experiments in trying to fix it. But not there yet!
I do agree that the Google Suite of tools are very usable though.
One specific thing that Google does terribly UI-wise is the G Suite admin panel.
Meh, it's pretty bad, but I can't think of any backoffice tool admin panels that are any better.
> Youtube would be another example of a highly effective UI.
Because it doesn't do much. I'm quite frustrated by the lack of features for advanced users.
Because it doesn't do much. I'm quite frustrated by the lack of features for advanced users.
As a native desktop app developer, I feel like on the contrary it's very important to insulate from most of the OS APIs as users have come to expect availability on whatever desktop platform they are using. The Discord app has great UX and UI, arguably better than most native app and is exactly the same across all desktop OSes. "Apple tried and tested frameworks", what does that even means. It's not like other OSes come with buggy APIs.
I want the apps on my machine to have standard conventions for that platform, not alien conventions.
Having a standard UX across platforms optimized for the uncommon case. The more common case is that the user sticks to one platform so learning an astandard set of conventions is a barrier.
Having a standard UX across platforms optimized for the uncommon case. The more common case is that the user sticks to one platform so learning an astandard set of conventions is a barrier.
What a baffling stand. "Pride" in only serving the customer base with the expensive machines? I truly hope Figma eats your lunch. Say no to gate-keeping.
These two things are simultaneously true:
1. The experience of using a native app is substantially superior to web/electron. 2. Figma has done an amazing job of building features to support teams and organizations.
I used to use Sketch, and now I use Figma. Do I wish Figma had a native macOS app? Absolutely. Would it be better than the web/electron app? Definitely.
Native vs web isn't a feature differentiation - it's a matter of user experience (responsiveness), platform integration (filesystem, native controls, accessibility, iCloud), and delivery (App Store vs download). As a company, the choice boils down to: "Are you going to spend more resources supporting multiple platforms but delivering the best possible experience? Or are you going to spend fewer resources to ship an inferior experience faster?".
I do enjoy Figma, but it's worth calling out that they're compromising on user experience by going the Electron route. Yes, I know that maintaining a Swift version of Figma alongside the web version would be tough, but they're not an under-resourced team and I believe they could make it happen.
1. The experience of using a native app is substantially superior to web/electron. 2. Figma has done an amazing job of building features to support teams and organizations.
I used to use Sketch, and now I use Figma. Do I wish Figma had a native macOS app? Absolutely. Would it be better than the web/electron app? Definitely.
Native vs web isn't a feature differentiation - it's a matter of user experience (responsiveness), platform integration (filesystem, native controls, accessibility, iCloud), and delivery (App Store vs download). As a company, the choice boils down to: "Are you going to spend more resources supporting multiple platforms but delivering the best possible experience? Or are you going to spend fewer resources to ship an inferior experience faster?".
I do enjoy Figma, but it's worth calling out that they're compromising on user experience by going the Electron route. Yes, I know that maintaining a Swift version of Figma alongside the web version would be tough, but they're not an under-resourced team and I believe they could make it happen.
In my admittedly limited testing I cannot fault the Figma web app in terms of responsiveness. Maybe it struggles with larger projects?
I think the web generally has these kind of use cases covered, although it would be nice to have the other things you mention (file system/iCloud integration, better accessibility [based on my understanding of Canvas' limitations in this area] etc.).
On the other hand, applications like Logic or Final Cut would be pretty much impossible to build in the browser.
I think the web generally has these kind of use cases covered, although it would be nice to have the other things you mention (file system/iCloud integration, better accessibility [based on my understanding of Canvas' limitations in this area] etc.).
On the other hand, applications like Logic or Final Cut would be pretty much impossible to build in the browser.
OT: But their 8bit graphics theme (which are really not 8-bit, I know...) is so much the wrong message for a product like Sketch that it was a net loss for me.
Graphics are important, and styles like that are great for games, but the message they give me is: "The fun doesn't come from the graphics"
Always be sure of the unconscious marketing
Graphics are important, and styles like that are great for games, but the message they give me is: "The fun doesn't come from the graphics"
Always be sure of the unconscious marketing
Any seasoned figma users out there that can comment on what it has that Adobe XD does not?
Adobe is is a creative powerhouse and has an army of devs and unlimited resources to steal the best features and workflow across all design apps from what I've seen since it first was referred to as project Comet.
Adobe is is a creative powerhouse and has an army of devs and unlimited resources to steal the best features and workflow across all design apps from what I've seen since it first was referred to as project Comet.
> Adobe is is a creative powerhouse and has an army of devs and unlimited resources to steal the best features and workflow across all design apps from what I've seen since it first was referred to as project Comet.
It really depends who is on the project. Excellence in execution varies so widely even among top companies. e.g. Microsoft can produce Azure but also run Skype into the ground. They can make Visual Studio Code but also Teams.
It really depends who is on the project. Excellence in execution varies so widely even among top companies. e.g. Microsoft can produce Azure but also run Skype into the ground. They can make Visual Studio Code but also Teams.
Sketch keeps design in a silo. Figma is the tool of the future. Design is about problem solving, and designers need to involve non-designers to solve problems.
The majority of the benefits seem to be for developers, not for customers. Effectively-free features like tool bars, file dialogs, and right-click lookups sure are nice to not have spend development hours on. However, as a customer...how does that matter to me?
Developers don't choose to develop for the Mac because it reduces their development effort.
Platform exclusivity should be discouraged, not praised. If I can't use the software then their supposed benefits of being native don't do me much good.
I think one the issues here was that sketch started as a very small indie mac app. In the case of one or two developers working on a niche product, exclusivity is forgivable. The problem is that sketch got way too popular, way too big and took investment and are now expected to compete with a competitor like figma.
Which, as a person who uses Linux and Windows, makes Figma the clear winner. Sketch isn't even a choice if I can't use it.
Which is fair enough, my point is I think it was a mistake for Sketch to even put itself in the same ballpark as Figma and raise investment. It could have stayed as a niche tool and likely supported a small team.
A part of me wishes Sketch would say, Creativity needs focus, and collaboration eats into focus if not done properly. They need to push asynchronous collaboration, rather than live collaboration.
Collaborative spaces makes me think what would others think, this leading me to share my work once It is complete or with a caveat this is work in progress.
This is one reason why there is a market for "focused" writers.
Collaborative spaces makes me think what would others think, this leading me to share my work once It is complete or with a caveat this is work in progress.
This is one reason why there is a market for "focused" writers.
Now no one call themselves macOS developer, iOS developer, or Windows developer, instead there are desktop developer, mobile developer or web developer. Reminds me of when iOS first came out and people were still experimenting the platform, there were some really awesome mobile games that's truly made for the iOS devices, like Cut the Rope, Fruit Ninja, I can tell they're making apps for the platform, instead of porting generic apps to the platform. As a game developer I'm constantly struggling with the thought of whether trying to go full cross-platform or focus on a single platform. Philosophically, aesthetically and technically focusing on one platform is a far superior choice, but it's so tempting to write one piece of software and able to deliver to all users..
Also poolside.fm is a recent one i noticed that has native clients on web, iOS and macOS that strongly demonstrated the power of being native.
Also poolside.fm is a recent one i noticed that has native clients on web, iOS and macOS that strongly demonstrated the power of being native.
The article really hits home when describing the benefits of having a native Mac app vs a hybrid or a web mess.
Dear Sketch developers, I love your app but will not renew the license, not because Figma. We use Affinity at the office. No. Collaborative design is a trend and it will pass in a mess that will be a result of mediocrity and lack of character. My problem is that you cannot see the Writing on the wall ahead, Apple will bring you down, they do not care, they are service sellers. If you want your software to live long and serve your customers fairly, its time to invest in multi-platform development, and if you want market advantage make Linux your primary choice.
Also it was super easy to bypass the registration with a super simple hack on their old mac app. It’s been a few years but I remember something along the lines of having to use the menu bar to open a file while they were prompting me to pay. There was probably another step involved but I was able to read and write files forever without paying. Reminded me WinRar
As someone who primarily works with either backend development or web frontend, it's just SO refreshing to build a native Mac app - or in fact even an iOS app as it's very similar. It's hard to explain but the development toolchain, the libraries, language (Swift!), makes me feel a lot more enthusiastic than what I normally am.
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macOS runs only on Apple Hardware. Perhaps things are different in countries where the laws are somewhat pro-consumer, but in poorer parts of the world, Apple is allowed to get away with operating pretty much like a criminal enterprise.
Here in India 100% of the Apple products that I have had the misfortune of owning, have been defective. I have purchased them from authorized resellers, and they have been original products. Recent examples: A pair of Airpods that I received as a gift lasted me about 6 months of occasional use before one side stopped charging. Apple Support says these are not covered by warranty. A Macbook Pro which I purchased a few years ago developed a tearing sound in both of its speakers and suffers from the infamous "staingate" issue on its screen. I also follow Louis Rossman on YouTube who routinely highlights the ways in which Apple scams its customers by overcharging for repairs and engaging in shoddy manufacturing. Furthermore, it is becoming increasingly difficult for customers or third party repair shops to fix hardware issues due to the proprietary parts. Apple even invented its own screw which requires a special screwdriver set to open their devices. By comparison I have knock-off airpods and a Samsung and Lenovo laptop which work flawlessly despite being purchased much earlier.
Sketch is a fantastic piece of Software, but its true price is essentially ensuring that everyone on the design team is using Mac desktop and laptop hardware, which is overpriced compared to the market, and virtually impossible to repair and maintain on your own. If I invest in PC hardware I can reliably swap out a bad GPU or motherboard or PSU by ordering one off Amazon and having it ready to go the next day. With Apple I have to overpay for the hardware and overpay for the repair - often to the degree that it is almost the same price as new hardware. That is downright criminal.
Until this changes I don't see myself ever supporting the Apple ecosystem at my own expense.
Here in India 100% of the Apple products that I have had the misfortune of owning, have been defective. I have purchased them from authorized resellers, and they have been original products. Recent examples: A pair of Airpods that I received as a gift lasted me about 6 months of occasional use before one side stopped charging. Apple Support says these are not covered by warranty. A Macbook Pro which I purchased a few years ago developed a tearing sound in both of its speakers and suffers from the infamous "staingate" issue on its screen. I also follow Louis Rossman on YouTube who routinely highlights the ways in which Apple scams its customers by overcharging for repairs and engaging in shoddy manufacturing. Furthermore, it is becoming increasingly difficult for customers or third party repair shops to fix hardware issues due to the proprietary parts. Apple even invented its own screw which requires a special screwdriver set to open their devices. By comparison I have knock-off airpods and a Samsung and Lenovo laptop which work flawlessly despite being purchased much earlier.
Sketch is a fantastic piece of Software, but its true price is essentially ensuring that everyone on the design team is using Mac desktop and laptop hardware, which is overpriced compared to the market, and virtually impossible to repair and maintain on your own. If I invest in PC hardware I can reliably swap out a bad GPU or motherboard or PSU by ordering one off Amazon and having it ready to go the next day. With Apple I have to overpay for the hardware and overpay for the repair - often to the degree that it is almost the same price as new hardware. That is downright criminal.
Until this changes I don't see myself ever supporting the Apple ecosystem at my own expense.
Here in South Africa I have observed quite a significant growth in Apple's market share over the last 15 years.
Unfortunately we don't deal directly with Apple, but rather franchises that make it seem like are working closely with Apple. Prices are relatively high but reasonable, and I haven't had issues with support. At my workplace: Apple devices are generally super reliable; and since we started giving Macs to all employees (hundreds) it has put an extremely low impact on internal support.
Most folks in this country still use PC but I think every kid wants an iPad or Macbook (because the other cool kids have them), so it will be interesting to see how things develop going forward.
Unfortunately we don't deal directly with Apple, but rather franchises that make it seem like are working closely with Apple. Prices are relatively high but reasonable, and I haven't had issues with support. At my workplace: Apple devices are generally super reliable; and since we started giving Macs to all employees (hundreds) it has put an extremely low impact on internal support.
Most folks in this country still use PC but I think every kid wants an iPad or Macbook (because the other cool kids have them), so it will be interesting to see how things develop going forward.
I always prefer native to web and I love companies like Sketch and Panic who put native first. Take all my money!
Sketch is perfect for me as a solo developer, and I would rather not rely on anything that always requires an internet connection.
Thanks for sticking to native! Would be great if Sketch would return to the Mac App Store too.
Sketch is perfect for me as a solo developer, and I would rather not rely on anything that always requires an internet connection.
Thanks for sticking to native! Would be great if Sketch would return to the Mac App Store too.
It's pretty bold of them to claim a performance edge. Figma smokes them in every corner of this metric.
Users can care less about the app being native or non-native. I just want it to work and not slow me down.
It's frustrating sometime when you switch machines and software you've purchased for a machine is not available across multiple operating systems.
It's frustrating sometime when you switch machines and software you've purchased for a machine is not available across multiple operating systems.
Why does this website change my mouse pointer though? I have it set to a different color and bigger for a reason. Visiting this page makes it small and black. For what purpose?? Is this the design they are so proud of?
It's styled to look like Mac OS, of course. It's meant to be a cute novelty.
Not a sketch user but I like this. Not every piece of software has to be used by everybody. There are tens of millions of designer surely, making a program for a decent subset is still worthwhile.
This shit is annoying because it's Mac only but its an industry standard, so I have to buy a Mac just to run this software. I thought about writing alternatives multiple times.
Sketch trying to make up for their (now) mediocre application by trying to turn one of their cons - heavy platform lock in - into an advantage. Clever.
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Good effort.
But I feel sad that I won't ever get to try it. macOS (and eventually iOS) is dead to me as a platform.
But I feel sad that I won't ever get to try it. macOS (and eventually iOS) is dead to me as a platform.
It's nice how the page design / typography is reminiscent of an 80's Byte magazine ad.
Too bad for Sketch not everyone work with Mac. I feel they got religious not making Windows version.
Interesting dicussions. I would pay more for a native version of Figma.
"Proud to be quickly becoming irrelevant."
sounds like "oh we're loosing market, oh well, but we're native, please please don't go away to sketch"
I hate sketch because of this. I don't use Mac, never will, and because of Apple's stubbornness about not running in a VM, there is no remote possibility of me ever being able to use sketch.
So when someone hands off a sketch, I usually have to pester them endlessly to decipher certain parts of it for me. It's their punishment for buying into platform lock-in.
Sketch is a cool app but it sucks and I hate it.
So when someone hands off a sketch, I usually have to pester them endlessly to decipher certain parts of it for me. It's their punishment for buying into platform lock-in.
Sketch is a cool app but it sucks and I hate it.
I loved sketch and was a devout user for years.
But with Sketch, I can only communicate with a very small set of people. It required a plethora of other tools and services to share, get feedback, or insights on my work.
The tool is only as effective as the reach of its creation. If technology has shown us anything in this generation, it is that reach and collaboration are immensely more valuable than tools themselves.
I've watched our company move from Sketch to Figma. The crappy performance is a relatively small price to pay in exchange for inclusive design.
My hope is that eventually Figma will launch platform native apps for MacOS and Windows, because I have zero hope that Sketch is ever going to figure out that they've been driving on the road to irrelevance for the past several years.