Steven Pinker Wants to Repair Campus Culture(browndailyherald.com)
browndailyherald.com
Steven Pinker Wants to Repair Campus Culture
https://www.browndailyherald.com/2021/03/12/reed-21-steven-pinker-wants-repair-campus-culture/
133 comments
> There was always an Overton Window and it has always been moving around.
Has it always been getting narrower, though? That seems to be what's changed more than anything. What happens when nothing can be discussed?
Has it always been getting narrower, though? That seems to be what's changed more than anything. What happens when nothing can be discussed?
If the old Overton window (A) and new Overton window (B) are like circles in a Venn diagram and you are determined to stick in the old one, you will find that the intersection between it and the new Overton window is shrinking (A intersects B).
This phenomenon explains why old people who do not want to change with the times will find that their Overton window is shrinking.
This phenomenon explains why old people who do not want to change with the times will find that their Overton window is shrinking.
It may seem narrower to people who's views are sliding out of the window, but I see no evidence that the overton window in the US is any narrower now than say, the 1950's.
If anything it feels like it has effectively widened, or at least fundamentally changed to lose some of it's bite, since there is no longer truly national media and everyone can quickly find a bubble with a window that fits their views.
If anything it feels like it has effectively widened, or at least fundamentally changed to lose some of it's bite, since there is no longer truly national media and everyone can quickly find a bubble with a window that fits their views.
>It may seem narrower to people who's views are sliding out of the window, but I see no evidence that the overton window in the US is any narrower now than say, the 1950's.
I can probably think of several views supported by the median American in 2021 (or at least 30% of Americans) that would get you summarily dismissed from most high-visibility jobs if publicly expressed. You probably could too.
What views in the 1950s do you think were similar? Again, there was undoubtedly an Overton Window in the 1950s. What's peculiar about 2020s cancel culture imo, however, is how zealously it goes after people who hold views that are extremely common among the broader population.
I can probably think of several views supported by the median American in 2021 (or at least 30% of Americans) that would get you summarily dismissed from most high-visibility jobs if publicly expressed. You probably could too.
What views in the 1950s do you think were similar? Again, there was undoubtedly an Overton Window in the 1950s. What's peculiar about 2020s cancel culture imo, however, is how zealously it goes after people who hold views that are extremely common among the broader population.
A view in the 1950's that could get you dismissed from a high-visibility job? How about being a communist? Have people forgotten about the McCarthy Era?
dismissed from a high-visibility job: agree
supported by the median American in 1950's (or at least 30% of Americans): not a chance
supported by the median American in 1950's (or at least 30% of Americans): not a chance
Ah but you see, you didn't actually have to be a communist, you just had to close enough to one. For example, Eugene Debs despite getting more electoral support than the Libertarian party ever did, was branded as a communist, and also made a political prisoner.
If your response to being challenged about the 1950s political climate is to raise a story about someone who died before 1930, then that says a lot...
It got even worse after 1950, it's just that at that point all socialist were already atomized.
But afaik it's simply not the case that 30% of the population was sympathetic to socialism in the 1950s. Maybe if you really tortured the term "socialism", but come on.
30% is an arbitrary number, but even at the time where more people in the US were sympathetic to socialism and were ever sympathetic to modern libertarianism, it was violently suppressed by the state, much less "canceled".
As far as how many people were sympathetic to socialism at that point, 15-20% isn't a bad estimate.
But if you want something closer to 30% in the 1950s, how about just being black?
As far as how many people were sympathetic to socialism at that point, 15-20% isn't a bad estimate.
But if you want something closer to 30% in the 1950s, how about just being black?
Eugene Debs was an out and out socialist, who led the most violent strike in US history. You can make an argument that he didn't make it violent -- that was the Pinkertons -- but he didn't get tossed in jail because he ran an opposition party a la Navalny.
He's not the boogyman that some would make him out to be, but he didn't pull punches, either.
Got 3% of the US vote behind bars, too.
He's not the boogyman that some would make him out to be, but he didn't pull punches, either.
Got 3% of the US vote behind bars, too.
He actually went to jail twice. The first time was for screening an anti-war movie.
Were 30% of Americans Communist? The argument isn't that there wasn't anything you couldn't say, but that the window doesn't cover the full range of opinions a substantial part of the population actually holds.
You'd probably still get dismissed from a high visibility job for being a communist, actually. IIRC in California being a communist bars you from holding office still today.
In that case there wasn't even a requirement to actually be a communist. You could be dismissed for simply being accused of being a communist.
> What views in the 1950s do you think were similar?
How about professing atheism, or believe in communism?
Being in a same sex or different race relationship in the 50's wouldn't just get you fired, it could lead to people refusing to give you a mortgage or the police driving you out of town.
It's difficult to find examples from the 50's america of a widespread belief that wasn't in the "mainstream" acceptable view because the effects of going against the acceptable view were so harsh. I doubt we could find a reliable poll from that time period to hit your arbitrary 30% threshold, but I like to flatter my ancestral countrymen at least enough to think that miscegenation laws weren't thought of as morally right by 70% of the population.
The difference, as you point it out, is that today's "cancel culture" can target people from the majority classes.
How about professing atheism, or believe in communism?
Being in a same sex or different race relationship in the 50's wouldn't just get you fired, it could lead to people refusing to give you a mortgage or the police driving you out of town.
It's difficult to find examples from the 50's america of a widespread belief that wasn't in the "mainstream" acceptable view because the effects of going against the acceptable view were so harsh. I doubt we could find a reliable poll from that time period to hit your arbitrary 30% threshold, but I like to flatter my ancestral countrymen at least enough to think that miscegenation laws weren't thought of as morally right by 70% of the population.
The difference, as you point it out, is that today's "cancel culture" can target people from the majority classes.
> The difference, as you point it out, is that today's "cancel culture" can target people from the majority classes.
I think the difference is that "cancel culture" targets speech that is acceptable to well over 70% of the population.
I think the difference is that "cancel culture" targets speech that is acceptable to well over 70% of the population.
“Cancel culture” works because a majority goes along with it.. if it really was just the shrill minority everyone frets about everyone could ignore them, but it’s also lots of persuaded people who either agree or don’t disagree strongly enough to ignore them.
I think the truth is the majority has no appetite for the culture wars and mostly doesn’t want to be out of step with “normal” - their default lack of conviction is often mistaken for tacit support by both sides of an issue.
I think the truth is the majority has no appetite for the culture wars and mostly doesn’t want to be out of step with “normal” - their default lack of conviction is often mistaken for tacit support by both sides of an issue.
> “Cancel culture” works because a majority goes along with it.. if it really was just the shrill minority everyone frets about everyone could ignore them, but it’s also lots of persuaded people who either agree or don’t disagree strongly enough to ignore them.
Your comment made me curious, and I found out Politico took a poll: https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000173-7326-d36e-abff-7ffe7.... 46% think cancel culture goes too far, 10% thinks it goes not far enough, 18% say 'neither', and 26% don't know. The kicker, however, is that Politico defines cancel culture as "withdrawing support for a public figure or a company". That is the softest, most benign definition I can think of and it notably excludes all of the ordinary people who were terminated because of a coordinated harassment campaign. It strikes me as almost pleasant--"we're angry with you, so we're going to go away and leave you be!".
I think for a more reasonable definition, and especially when primed with specific incidences of cancellation (especially ordinary people who lost jobs), far more would disapprove. I don't want to quibble about definitions, but I'm expressly not concerned about celebrities "losing support" and much more interested in low and middle class families losing income and healthcare.
I think "cancel culture" mostly just works because it takes society some time to collectively identify a problem and organize to find a solution. At present, there are at least a handful of bills in the pipeline of various state legislatures to combat cancel culture, all of which would be horrible from perspectives of free speech and academic freedom (the best approach I can think of is to strengthen employment protections and take away the bullies' stick). The point is that just because political opposition hasn't organized yet doesn't mean that the majority of people are ambivalent or supportive.
Your comment made me curious, and I found out Politico took a poll: https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000173-7326-d36e-abff-7ffe7.... 46% think cancel culture goes too far, 10% thinks it goes not far enough, 18% say 'neither', and 26% don't know. The kicker, however, is that Politico defines cancel culture as "withdrawing support for a public figure or a company". That is the softest, most benign definition I can think of and it notably excludes all of the ordinary people who were terminated because of a coordinated harassment campaign. It strikes me as almost pleasant--"we're angry with you, so we're going to go away and leave you be!".
I think for a more reasonable definition, and especially when primed with specific incidences of cancellation (especially ordinary people who lost jobs), far more would disapprove. I don't want to quibble about definitions, but I'm expressly not concerned about celebrities "losing support" and much more interested in low and middle class families losing income and healthcare.
I think "cancel culture" mostly just works because it takes society some time to collectively identify a problem and organize to find a solution. At present, there are at least a handful of bills in the pipeline of various state legislatures to combat cancel culture, all of which would be horrible from perspectives of free speech and academic freedom (the best approach I can think of is to strengthen employment protections and take away the bullies' stick). The point is that just because political opposition hasn't organized yet doesn't mean that the majority of people are ambivalent or supportive.
You seem to assume people accepted the definition and ignored the term. Try asking about withdrawing support for a public figure or a company without calling it cancel culture.
They came close actually. 53% said "people should expect social consequences for expressing unpopular opinions in public" was closer to their opinion. Only 31% said "There should not be social consequences for expressing unpopular opinions in public, even those that are deeply offensive to other people because free speech is protected" was closer to their opinion.
How many ordinary people were terminated because of a coordinated harassment campaign? Numbers not anecdotes.
They came close actually. 53% said "people should expect social consequences for expressing unpopular opinions in public" was closer to their opinion. Only 31% said "There should not be social consequences for expressing unpopular opinions in public, even those that are deeply offensive to other people because free speech is protected" was closer to their opinion.
How many ordinary people were terminated because of a coordinated harassment campaign? Numbers not anecdotes.
> Try asking about withdrawing support for a public figure or a company without calling it cancel culture.
Sure, it’s not a very good term. No argument from me.
> Social consequences
Is “being fired from your job” a “social consequence”? When I think of social consequences, I think “you might lose friends”, not “you won’t be able to pay your bills and your kid won’t get the treatment she needs to survive”.
> How many ordinary people were terminated because of a coordinated harassment campaign? Numbers not anecdotes.
I’m guessing anecdotes are the best we have. I doubt anyone has numbers because employers are rarely going to be forthcoming that they fired their employee because they were afraid of the Twitter mob. Moreover, it’s not just the people who are fired, but the people who self-censor for fear of losing their jobs.
Personally I don’t understand why this is controversial. Surely we can all agree that Twitter mobs shouldn’t hold sway over people’s employment in order to suppress dissent? How much fear and chilled speech is optimal for a democratic society? Even if you think critics exaggerate the impact of cancel culture, can’t we all agree that canceling is vile, there’s too much of it going around, and we should condemn it and if necessary neuter it by passing employment protection laws or regulating social media or similar?
Sure, it’s not a very good term. No argument from me.
> Social consequences
Is “being fired from your job” a “social consequence”? When I think of social consequences, I think “you might lose friends”, not “you won’t be able to pay your bills and your kid won’t get the treatment she needs to survive”.
> How many ordinary people were terminated because of a coordinated harassment campaign? Numbers not anecdotes.
I’m guessing anecdotes are the best we have. I doubt anyone has numbers because employers are rarely going to be forthcoming that they fired their employee because they were afraid of the Twitter mob. Moreover, it’s not just the people who are fired, but the people who self-censor for fear of losing their jobs.
Personally I don’t understand why this is controversial. Surely we can all agree that Twitter mobs shouldn’t hold sway over people’s employment in order to suppress dissent? How much fear and chilled speech is optimal for a democratic society? Even if you think critics exaggerate the impact of cancel culture, can’t we all agree that canceling is vile, there’s too much of it going around, and we should condemn it and if necessary neuter it by passing employment protection laws or regulating social media or similar?
>Is “being fired from your job” a “social consequence”?
Of course it is, when employment is not a right but a privilege granted by society. Exceptions regarding protected groups aside, no one has the right to embarrass their employer and potentially negatively affect their image or customer relations and keep their job. That is functionally no different than bringing shame to one's household or community.
Of course it is, when employment is not a right but a privilege granted by society. Exceptions regarding protected groups aside, no one has the right to embarrass their employer and potentially negatively affect their image or customer relations and keep their job. That is functionally no different than bringing shame to one's household or community.
That’s a harsh take in a society that lacks universal income or healthcare. It’s also ripe for exploitation in that anyone can harass your employer into firing you if you offend them. I’m sure that works great if the mob is on your side, but mobs aren’t exactly known for their fidelity.
54% supported Blake Neff being fired. Slightly more than supported unspecified social consequences.
Why is firing anyone for any reason acceptable if lost jobs mean dead kids?
Companies often say something about the fired employee not representing the company's values when they fire someone who offended members of the public. And seeing how many people even claim they were fired because of public pressure would establish an upper bound.
Canceling would need a consistent definition to say anything about it. But it shouldn't surprise you some people aren't inclined to restrict freedom of association and freedom of speech without compelling evidence.
Why is firing anyone for any reason acceptable if lost jobs mean dead kids?
Companies often say something about the fired employee not representing the company's values when they fire someone who offended members of the public. And seeing how many people even claim they were fired because of public pressure would establish an upper bound.
Canceling would need a consistent definition to say anything about it. But it shouldn't surprise you some people aren't inclined to restrict freedom of association and freedom of speech without compelling evidence.
> 54% supported Blake Neff being fired. Slightly more than supported unspecified social consequences.
I'm guessing people interpreted the question as "Do you think posting racist remarks is a fireable offense?". I don't think he should be fired because a Twitter mob harassed his employer. Ask them about David Shor and see what happens.
> Why is firing anyone for any reason acceptable if lost jobs mean dead kids?
I don't think it is acceptable, and neither do many other lefties with the notable exception for cancel culture--then it's just Social Consequences (TM).
> Companies often say something about the fired employee not representing the company's values when they fire someone who offended members of the public. And seeing how many people even claim they were fired because of public pressure would establish an upper bound.
Maybe, but it's still going to be a slog to get that data. Good luck to any researcher who is investigating this, but I'm not holding my breath. Probably a better approach would be to look at periodic surveys that ask "How comfortable do you feel talking about X?" every few years, and look at how the results change over time. I'm guessing these exist. Maybe the effect of cancel culture is actually smaller than I'm expecting? Who knows?
> Canceling would need a consistent definition to say anything about it.
No, it just means we need to be clear when we discuss it. As previously mentioned, I'm talking about ordinary people being terminated because of an organized harassment campaign.
> But it shouldn't surprise you some people aren't inclined to restrict freedom of association and freedom of speech without compelling evidence.
Nor should they be. But a harassment campaign for the express purpose of having an employee terminated because they offended you isn't "free speech" any more than any other kind of harassment.
I'm guessing people interpreted the question as "Do you think posting racist remarks is a fireable offense?". I don't think he should be fired because a Twitter mob harassed his employer. Ask them about David Shor and see what happens.
> Why is firing anyone for any reason acceptable if lost jobs mean dead kids?
I don't think it is acceptable, and neither do many other lefties with the notable exception for cancel culture--then it's just Social Consequences (TM).
> Companies often say something about the fired employee not representing the company's values when they fire someone who offended members of the public. And seeing how many people even claim they were fired because of public pressure would establish an upper bound.
Maybe, but it's still going to be a slog to get that data. Good luck to any researcher who is investigating this, but I'm not holding my breath. Probably a better approach would be to look at periodic surveys that ask "How comfortable do you feel talking about X?" every few years, and look at how the results change over time. I'm guessing these exist. Maybe the effect of cancel culture is actually smaller than I'm expecting? Who knows?
> Canceling would need a consistent definition to say anything about it.
No, it just means we need to be clear when we discuss it. As previously mentioned, I'm talking about ordinary people being terminated because of an organized harassment campaign.
> But it shouldn't surprise you some people aren't inclined to restrict freedom of association and freedom of speech without compelling evidence.
Nor should they be. But a harassment campaign for the express purpose of having an employee terminated because they offended you isn't "free speech" any more than any other kind of harassment.
> How about professing atheism, or believe in communism?
Even today these are sub-5% viewpoints.
Even today these are sub-5% viewpoints.
Okay, how about allowing mixed race marriages?
I think the 30% threshold is arbitrary and not worth fixating on, but there are certainly counter examples.
I think the 30% threshold is arbitrary and not worth fixating on, but there are certainly counter examples.
In 1958, only 4% of Americans supported interracial marriage. (And in 1951 you had Support was around 30% by the 1970s. It was below 50% into the mid-1990s. In 1975, The Jeffersons featured an interracial married couple on TV. So that’s not a great example of being cancelled for something 30% of Americans supported.
Another example is catholicism; Catholics absolutely were barred from some jobs in the 50's, despite being nearly a quarter of the population.
We can keep looking at examples, but I don't think the 30% is a meaningful number, as I wrote above it seems impossible to find an opinion that the majority felt comfortable expressing that went against the stringent vocal monitory setting the overton window. I hypothesize that the vast majority of people just did not care strongly about interracial marriage but did not want to tangle with those who did. It seems to just be another way of saying that today's overton window doesn't include some of the views common in conservative white america, and before it was defined by conservative white america.
We can keep looking at examples, but I don't think the 30% is a meaningful number, as I wrote above it seems impossible to find an opinion that the majority felt comfortable expressing that went against the stringent vocal monitory setting the overton window. I hypothesize that the vast majority of people just did not care strongly about interracial marriage but did not want to tangle with those who did. It seems to just be another way of saying that today's overton window doesn't include some of the views common in conservative white america, and before it was defined by conservative white america.
[deleted]
30% is an arbitrary number, so if you find an example with or 29% I'd be happy to hear that too. I probably could find some examples of majority views in 2021 that would get you predictably fired if you expressed them as say an adjunct professor. Think "All Lives Matter" and such.
But if you have to reach down to 20% or 10% or whatever then yes that's a significant enough difference that I see it as conceding my original point about that this isn't like the 50s. It's also notable that the examples that you're reaching for seem to involve elite bigotry that eventually collapsed - do you think that cancel culture will collapse in the same fashion?
But if you have to reach down to 20% or 10% or whatever then yes that's a significant enough difference that I see it as conceding my original point about that this isn't like the 50s. It's also notable that the examples that you're reaching for seem to involve elite bigotry that eventually collapsed - do you think that cancel culture will collapse in the same fashion?
I would say the "window" enforced by most cancellation represents <30% of the population. I think it's largely the "woke" subset of the progressive population, however big that is, but certainly less than 30%. I don't think the window represents the views of over 70% of the rest of the population; I don't think that was the case in the 50s and certainly not in the 90s or 00s. It seems very likely to me that the window has narrowed to the point that it can't reasonably be called an "Overton Window" as I understand it (i.e., 'views tolerable to the majority' if I understand correctly). Whether or not this kind of super-narrow window constitutes an Overton Window, I certainly think it's an undesirable development.
It's far less than 30%, maybe less than 10%. And you're correct, that's what I think is driving the response to "cancel culture." Being ostracized for expressing views contrary to those of the majority is just human history. Being ostracized for expressing views consistent with those of the majority is quite an odd situation. That inversion is only possible because particular ideologies have overtaken elite universities, and most of our cultural institutions are controlled by graduates of those elite universities.
Well put, as usual.
> It's far less than 30%, maybe less than 10%.
Agreed, I was trying to be overly generous with the 30% figure.
> It's far less than 30%, maybe less than 10%.
Agreed, I was trying to be overly generous with the 30% figure.
If cultural institutions are captured and weaponized by people whose views represent <10% of society, won't the rest of society simply choose new cultural institutions to care about?
This seems to me to be already underway. Right wing media has been around for decades, and more recently youtube, podcasts, substack, etc. have provided a platform for a huge number of cultural institutions opposed to the tyrannical 10%.
So what's the problem?
Well, I think the problem is that it's not <10%. Sure, some of the more extreme examples of woke-ism would have very little broad support. And sure, the aforementioned ecosystem of alternative cultural institutions are incentivized to make sure those examples get as much exposure as possible. But the "steelman" version of woke-ism probably has 40-50% support in the US. The steelman version of anti-wokism probably has around the same support level.
So we're at a stalemate. The old-guard of tyrannical college elite institutions and the new breed of alternative working class everyman institutions co-exist in the same attention marketplace, competing and trading blows.
So again I ask, what's the problem?
This seems to me to be already underway. Right wing media has been around for decades, and more recently youtube, podcasts, substack, etc. have provided a platform for a huge number of cultural institutions opposed to the tyrannical 10%.
So what's the problem?
Well, I think the problem is that it's not <10%. Sure, some of the more extreme examples of woke-ism would have very little broad support. And sure, the aforementioned ecosystem of alternative cultural institutions are incentivized to make sure those examples get as much exposure as possible. But the "steelman" version of woke-ism probably has 40-50% support in the US. The steelman version of anti-wokism probably has around the same support level.
So we're at a stalemate. The old-guard of tyrannical college elite institutions and the new breed of alternative working class everyman institutions co-exist in the same attention marketplace, competing and trading blows.
So again I ask, what's the problem?
(I didn’t downvote you). Because we still have to make decisions as a collective. We need to have a functioning government and we have to suffer each other in our communities and workplaces. How does a government run when it is highly polarized and there are no common epistemological institutions that both sides can turn to for resolution? How does a business make decisions when different parties have different ideologies?
> Right wing media has been around for decades
Not really, right wing media (as we know it) came about precisely because of this problem. Rupert Murdoch created Fox News in 1996 because it was becoming increasingly clear that the erstwhile media had moved in a direction that alienated a broad section of society. This marked the end of the Walter Cronkite era.
As for why this started in 1996, and why the Walter Cronkite era was so tranquil, I read one theory on a recent interview with Patrick Collison (https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/interview-patrick-collison...) which shows a consistent pattern:
"Culture. As Ezra Klein recently described in the New York Times, and Marc Dunkelman has written about in his great piece about Penn Station, a particular version of distorted, hypertrophic progressivism that took hold in the 1970s may have had (and still be having!) quite significantly stifling effects. We perhaps shifted from placing emphasis on our collective effectiveness in advancing prosperity and opportunity for people to the perceived fairness that was embodied in whichever particular steps we happened to take. Or, to say that another way, we shifted our focus from sins of omission to sins of commission."
This "hypertrophic progressivism of the 1970s" was broadly started in college campuses of the time, and by around the late '80s and '90s, college students from the '70s were beginning to find themselves within the ranks of leadership in most of our institutions.
> So again I ask, what's the problem?
The problem is the perceived impedance mismatch between professional institutions (media, white collar corporate America, etc) and society at large. Because this is an issue that has existed since at least 1996 (the advent of Fox News), the assertion is that the root cause is ideological movements that begin on college campuses that have historically not aligned with the ideologies of broad swaths of society; and adherents of those ideologies eventually going on to run our professional institutions.
Not really, right wing media (as we know it) came about precisely because of this problem. Rupert Murdoch created Fox News in 1996 because it was becoming increasingly clear that the erstwhile media had moved in a direction that alienated a broad section of society. This marked the end of the Walter Cronkite era.
As for why this started in 1996, and why the Walter Cronkite era was so tranquil, I read one theory on a recent interview with Patrick Collison (https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/interview-patrick-collison...) which shows a consistent pattern:
"Culture. As Ezra Klein recently described in the New York Times, and Marc Dunkelman has written about in his great piece about Penn Station, a particular version of distorted, hypertrophic progressivism that took hold in the 1970s may have had (and still be having!) quite significantly stifling effects. We perhaps shifted from placing emphasis on our collective effectiveness in advancing prosperity and opportunity for people to the perceived fairness that was embodied in whichever particular steps we happened to take. Or, to say that another way, we shifted our focus from sins of omission to sins of commission."
This "hypertrophic progressivism of the 1970s" was broadly started in college campuses of the time, and by around the late '80s and '90s, college students from the '70s were beginning to find themselves within the ranks of leadership in most of our institutions.
> So again I ask, what's the problem?
The problem is the perceived impedance mismatch between professional institutions (media, white collar corporate America, etc) and society at large. Because this is an issue that has existed since at least 1996 (the advent of Fox News), the assertion is that the root cause is ideological movements that begin on college campuses that have historically not aligned with the ideologies of broad swaths of society; and adherents of those ideologies eventually going on to run our professional institutions.
The Overton Window hasn't widened. It hasn't narrowed. Instead, it shattered.
Take gay marriage, for example. 50 years ago, 95% of the population thought that gay marriage was ridiculous. That meant that 95% of the population thought that the position of 95% of the population was reasonable. That's an Overton Window.
Now, 30%[1] of the population still agree with the previous view. 40% of the population thinks that gay marriage is perfectly reasonable, and that thinking otherwise is completely unacceptable. And 30% are somewhere in the middle (gay marriage is acceptable, but it's OK to think that it's not, maybe). That means that 40% of the population has an Overton Window that excludes 60% of the population, and a separate 30% has a window that excludes 70% of the population. There isn't a society-wide Overton Window on the topic any longer.
---
[1] All numbers are gut-feel estimates, with no statistical validity.
Take gay marriage, for example. 50 years ago, 95% of the population thought that gay marriage was ridiculous. That meant that 95% of the population thought that the position of 95% of the population was reasonable. That's an Overton Window.
Now, 30%[1] of the population still agree with the previous view. 40% of the population thinks that gay marriage is perfectly reasonable, and that thinking otherwise is completely unacceptable. And 30% are somewhere in the middle (gay marriage is acceptable, but it's OK to think that it's not, maybe). That means that 40% of the population has an Overton Window that excludes 60% of the population, and a separate 30% has a window that excludes 70% of the population. There isn't a society-wide Overton Window on the topic any longer.
---
[1] All numbers are gut-feel estimates, with no statistical validity.
I think that even in the past the default position of most Americans on these issues is one where they just don’t care one way or another very strongly and don’t want to deal with those who do.
Even in the days where it seemed that 95% thought gay marriage was ridiculous, it seems more likely to me that maybe 30% hated the idea and 50% didn’t care strongly either way but certainly didn’t want to face the 30%. This is almost the same dynamic you are talking about now; the difference is who the vocal 30% is these days. The majority of people maybe mildly disliked gay marriage but didn’t really care about it and mostly just don’t want to deal with the people who care a great deal about it, only now the vocal 30% who care a great deal is for gay marriage.
That’s the shifted Overton window, and a bunch of people who hated gay marriage are complaining how “it seemed like everyone was with me just a decade ago!”
Even in the days where it seemed that 95% thought gay marriage was ridiculous, it seems more likely to me that maybe 30% hated the idea and 50% didn’t care strongly either way but certainly didn’t want to face the 30%. This is almost the same dynamic you are talking about now; the difference is who the vocal 30% is these days. The majority of people maybe mildly disliked gay marriage but didn’t really care about it and mostly just don’t want to deal with the people who care a great deal about it, only now the vocal 30% who care a great deal is for gay marriage.
That’s the shifted Overton window, and a bunch of people who hated gay marriage are complaining how “it seemed like everyone was with me just a decade ago!”
Your premise is that in the past a vocal minority of conservatives controlled the Overton window on this issue, and that’s not what the polling shows, and if you look at contemporary societies where homosexuality is still taboo, it’s clear that the polling accurately reflected reality.
It's not like there weren't controversial topics before. They were just different topics. Instead of gay marriage, it was interracial marriage that had that kind of split.
Has it been getting narrower, or do you feel as if it does as you slide closer to the edge, relatively?
I don't know, both are possible. But there are a lot of people that claim it's getting smaller but really it's that they're failing to cover up ideas that were always unacceptable.
I don't know, both are possible. But there are a lot of people that claim it's getting smaller but really it's that they're failing to cover up ideas that were always unacceptable.
Considering left-wing cancellation only, I'm guessing the enforced views are favored by less than 30% of the population. I don't think virtually any conservatives or many moderate liberals agree with the enforced viewpoint. Surely that means the Overton Window is narrowing. When have the views of 70+% of the population ever fell outside the OW? If it excludes the views of 70+%, is it even an "Overton Window" by definition? What's the difference between enforcing an extremely narrow window on the whole population and cultural authoritarianism (or perhaps just "authoritarianism"--I'm not exactly sure on the terminology?)?
The other question is that, while rarer, right-wing cancellation is a thing. Notable examples are Dixie Chicks and Colin Kaepernick. While I could believe that the Dixie Chicks were a matter of an OW shift a few years in the making, and while I can believe that the window shifted gradually leftward from there, I can't believe that it shifted to the extreme left, then abruptly back to the right in just a week's time for the Kaepernick cancellation, and then a week later back to the far left for various left-wing cancellations.
Even if it is the Overton Window, is it eminently desirable that people's livelihoods and healthcare should be subject to expressing views within the OW?
EDIT: Downvoters, I would be very interested in your feedback, genuinely; where am I wrong?
The other question is that, while rarer, right-wing cancellation is a thing. Notable examples are Dixie Chicks and Colin Kaepernick. While I could believe that the Dixie Chicks were a matter of an OW shift a few years in the making, and while I can believe that the window shifted gradually leftward from there, I can't believe that it shifted to the extreme left, then abruptly back to the right in just a week's time for the Kaepernick cancellation, and then a week later back to the far left for various left-wing cancellations.
Even if it is the Overton Window, is it eminently desirable that people's livelihoods and healthcare should be subject to expressing views within the OW?
EDIT: Downvoters, I would be very interested in your feedback, genuinely; where am I wrong?
[deleted]
> What happens when nothing can be discussed?
At that point, not discussing anything clearly means that you're a witch.
At that point, not discussing anything clearly means that you're a witch.
>I find that this is a bit of a deception and used to disavow that you are unhappy with the current position of the Overton Window with regards to very specific issues, usually because if they discussed the specifics of their concern, it would actually fall outside of most people's Overton Window - thus the need to argue the meta route.
I think a lot of the concerns about "cancel culture" in particular is that there's an unusually large (and growing) chasm between the Overton Window that exists in certain elite "captured" institutions and the Overton Window that exists in broader American society - and that the enforcers of this "vocal minority" Overton Window are unusually zealous about trying to punish heresy in their captured spaces.
Also, there's an amusing critique that is increasingly forceful in my view that this is all a way to create a new sort of social class divide. I went to school for a long time and although I do not adhere to the scriptures of wokism I am accultured to its mores and can adopt the requisite Taqiya-style practices to survive in a culturally-hostile environment. Many cannot do the same and are excluded from opportunities accordingly - look at how many cancellations are predicated on "it's not what they said but how they said it" to see this sort of shibboleth-like status filter in action.
I think a lot of the concerns about "cancel culture" in particular is that there's an unusually large (and growing) chasm between the Overton Window that exists in certain elite "captured" institutions and the Overton Window that exists in broader American society - and that the enforcers of this "vocal minority" Overton Window are unusually zealous about trying to punish heresy in their captured spaces.
Also, there's an amusing critique that is increasingly forceful in my view that this is all a way to create a new sort of social class divide. I went to school for a long time and although I do not adhere to the scriptures of wokism I am accultured to its mores and can adopt the requisite Taqiya-style practices to survive in a culturally-hostile environment. Many cannot do the same and are excluded from opportunities accordingly - look at how many cancellations are predicated on "it's not what they said but how they said it" to see this sort of shibboleth-like status filter in action.
[deleted]
I disagree. Many of those concerned about this do not hold any view that is currently suddenly outside the window. For you to claim that this is the case with is just a form of ad hominem.
Rather, what is going on is a slippery slope (in reality, not in fallacy) being recognized for what it is. People see that their friends, parents, neighbors, children, coworkers, and eventually themselves are quite possibly going to be labeled with a scarlet letter for holding any view whatsoever except what was decided at yesterday's HR meeting, which nobody has been notified of yet.
In other words, this is not a question of the Overton Window moving. This is a question of whether the Overton Window should become the Overton Pinhole.
Rather, what is going on is a slippery slope (in reality, not in fallacy) being recognized for what it is. People see that their friends, parents, neighbors, children, coworkers, and eventually themselves are quite possibly going to be labeled with a scarlet letter for holding any view whatsoever except what was decided at yesterday's HR meeting, which nobody has been notified of yet.
In other words, this is not a question of the Overton Window moving. This is a question of whether the Overton Window should become the Overton Pinhole.
The strongest objections to "cancel culture" (it's a bad term, but I'm not arguing semantics, let's just go along with it) are procedural.
Because the public often lacks the entire picture, "cancel mobs" are effectively operating a form of vigilante justice with imperfect information. While strictly speaking people do have a right to do so, when "cancelled" people suffer real-world consequences (pressure on employers to fire them, etc.), the entire thing starts getting scary, regardless of the merit of the accusation.
I'd also argue that, for a well-intentioned person, it's tactically stupid to engage in such behavior, because this circus allows truly bad actors to credibly claim they're being unjustly accused.
Because the public often lacks the entire picture, "cancel mobs" are effectively operating a form of vigilante justice with imperfect information. While strictly speaking people do have a right to do so, when "cancelled" people suffer real-world consequences (pressure on employers to fire them, etc.), the entire thing starts getting scary, regardless of the merit of the accusation.
I'd also argue that, for a well-intentioned person, it's tactically stupid to engage in such behavior, because this circus allows truly bad actors to credibly claim they're being unjustly accused.
Confusingly, cancellation proponents argue that they aren't enforcing justice, but only exercising their "freedom of association" which, they argue, includes depriving dissidents of income and healthcare. "Social Consequences" (TM).
I don't think this is a very good characterization of the debate. Most importantly, the debate as far as I can tell centers around whether or not it is appropriate for your livelihood and access to healthcare to be at the mercy of a Twitter mob, specifically about whether or not threatening someone's livelihood, etc (namely by way of harassment campaign against one's employer) constitutes 'free speech'--more abstractly, the debate is about whether or not threats and harassment constitute free speech.
Further, I don't think the cancel culture debate is about the Overton Window as much as rank partisanship. For example, I don't think progressives would argue that nonviolent protest falls afoul of their OW, but they canceled (and defend the canceling of) a data scientist who so transgressed. Similarly, do progressives really think it's so offensive to publish a quote from a black man in the context of BLM in which he wished for more attention to other problems his community faces--is that actually outside of their OW, or is it more likely that the journalist's crime was publishing a viewpoint that failed to toe the ideological line? Similarly, the Hispanic utility worker who accidentally and absent-mindedly made the "OK" gesture from his truck--whose Overton window is that out-of-bounds of? Or the professor who said a Chinese word in appropriate context which sounded sort of like the N-word? Are these really outside of people's Overton window, or is this just overt bullying? In the other direction, the sitting Prime Minister of Canada has dressed in blackface so often that he's admittedly lost track, but he was somehow not cancelled? Is blackface really within the left-wing Overton Window, or are we observing ideological partisanship?
EDIT: Downvoters, I'm really interested in hearing your opinions!
Further, I don't think the cancel culture debate is about the Overton Window as much as rank partisanship. For example, I don't think progressives would argue that nonviolent protest falls afoul of their OW, but they canceled (and defend the canceling of) a data scientist who so transgressed. Similarly, do progressives really think it's so offensive to publish a quote from a black man in the context of BLM in which he wished for more attention to other problems his community faces--is that actually outside of their OW, or is it more likely that the journalist's crime was publishing a viewpoint that failed to toe the ideological line? Similarly, the Hispanic utility worker who accidentally and absent-mindedly made the "OK" gesture from his truck--whose Overton window is that out-of-bounds of? Or the professor who said a Chinese word in appropriate context which sounded sort of like the N-word? Are these really outside of people's Overton window, or is this just overt bullying? In the other direction, the sitting Prime Minister of Canada has dressed in blackface so often that he's admittedly lost track, but he was somehow not cancelled? Is blackface really within the left-wing Overton Window, or are we observing ideological partisanship?
EDIT: Downvoters, I'm really interested in hearing your opinions!
> EDIT: Downvoters, I'm really interested in hearing your opinions!
Best guess is that they just very strongly disagree with your points but have no rebuttal. So a downvote has to do.
Best guess is that they just very strongly disagree with your points but have no rebuttal. So a downvote has to do.
I agree there's always been an Overton Window, but I think you're leaving out important context. When conservatives controlled culture, championing free expression was a way to expand the Overton Window to make it okay to say liberal things. To older liberals like Pinker, the change in tack comes across as hypocritical. (Of course, it's not actually hypocritical, insofar as we're talking about different individuals.)
>Pinker traces the origins of this dynamic all the way back to 1975 and the publication of E.O. Wilson’s “Sociobiology,” when Wilson and other biologists “would get shouted down” for expressing the view that genetic and other evolutionary considerations determine, in part, social organization.
Two things that might serve as food for thought:
1) I guarantee that know-it-all, newly-minted young adults getting mad at professors didn't start in 1975, though simultaneous social shifts (e.g. things like the anti-Vietnam-War movement) might have made it more socially acceptable for the youngins to speak up in those places.
2) People complaining about being oppressed on campus because of their ideas frequently seem to have the same weird idea. Whereas, no one goes and yells at Lee Smolin when he bags on string theory.
Two things that might serve as food for thought:
1) I guarantee that know-it-all, newly-minted young adults getting mad at professors didn't start in 1975, though simultaneous social shifts (e.g. things like the anti-Vietnam-War movement) might have made it more socially acceptable for the youngins to speak up in those places.
2) People complaining about being oppressed on campus because of their ideas frequently seem to have the same weird idea. Whereas, no one goes and yells at Lee Smolin when he bags on string theory.
On your second point. It does seem interesting that any publication or statement that can be cancelled must be rooted in a certain field where morality can be injected. String theory or astronomy, although complex, is completely abstracted from human society.
Genetics, IQ and Psychology all share parts of their work with things that are intrinsically connected to human society. IQ specifically is also designed to remove any bias to any particular group, culture, language or schooling. and even then the field does not escape the 'cancel culture' with countless articles having been written about discrimination that author of the bell curve supposedly displayed.
Speaking out against discrimination and immorality has always been a virtue but the burden of proof has disappeared and there is no apparent consequence against defaming/cancelling someone innocent. I've never been a fan of libel laws because it can be used to silence opposition but I dont see many other ways to prevent the creation of these authorities by mob rule without proof.
Genetics, IQ and Psychology all share parts of their work with things that are intrinsically connected to human society. IQ specifically is also designed to remove any bias to any particular group, culture, language or schooling. and even then the field does not escape the 'cancel culture' with countless articles having been written about discrimination that author of the bell curve supposedly displayed.
Speaking out against discrimination and immorality has always been a virtue but the burden of proof has disappeared and there is no apparent consequence against defaming/cancelling someone innocent. I've never been a fan of libel laws because it can be used to silence opposition but I dont see many other ways to prevent the creation of these authorities by mob rule without proof.
Holding powerful people accountable isn't a bad thing. Attacking people who have little power over relatively small things and not allowing them room for growth and reflection is a bad thing. And even for the people with little power who did pretty bad things, we must allow them to be forgiven too. You can't have criminal justice reform without this.
We need to discuss this issue with the nuance of the above.
We need to discuss this issue with the nuance of the above.
Yeah this is very obviously punching down on 18 year olds who have simplistic ways of expressing their politics and who don't actually have a lot of power.
I think the bigger issue here is the scale provided by the internet. That combined with the lack of investigation or skepticism means people read a tweet and assume that’s all they need to know.
Pinker is the wrong person to do it. A lot of baggage.
If this is a story you're generally enthusiastic about, a better person to pay attention to is probably John McWhorter (also a linguist!). I don't cosign all that much of what McWhorter has to say about this topic, but he has much better bona fides.
If this is a story you're generally enthusiastic about, a better person to pay attention to is probably John McWhorter (also a linguist!). I don't cosign all that much of what McWhorter has to say about this topic, but he has much better bona fides.
who's the right person to do it, with no 'baggage'?
It really is a lot of baggage. Another person who would strongly agree with the idea that campus culture has become corrupted is Charles Murray. But you can see immediately why Charles Murray couldn't be the figure that reform unified behind! Pinker is, like, 650-750 milliMurrays. He gave a statement that had the intended effect of getting Epstein his sweetheart sentence! Just fatally compromised, for a bunch of reasons.
Beyond the Epstein stuff, and to calibrate the Murrayometer, I'd suggest searches like [Pinker Hsu], [Pinker Bell Curve], [Pinker "Groups and Genes"], [Pinker UCSB shooting], [Pinker "Richard Haier"]. You might be fine with all these search results! I'm saying: you're not going to be building a lot of bridges with this resume.
Beyond the Epstein stuff, and to calibrate the Murrayometer, I'd suggest searches like [Pinker Hsu], [Pinker Bell Curve], [Pinker "Groups and Genes"], [Pinker UCSB shooting], [Pinker "Richard Haier"]. You might be fine with all these search results! I'm saying: you're not going to be building a lot of bridges with this resume.
It seems to me that these discussions always trend towards something like "why are all the people complaining about witch burning so witchey?"
I won't defend this guy, I believe you regarding the baggage, I just think that ignoring voices like that is part of the problem here.
I've disagreed with you many times on many things, but I still think it's worth listening to you because you have a point of view that merits serious consideration that should not be dismissed without looking past the speaker to the content of what is said.
We often talk about 'filter bubbles' but the most important one has always existed in our own minds. It becomes an issue when we end up marking serious points by serious thinkers as if they were mere spam that we don't want to do any intellectual work to deal with. This isn't to suggest that we can read and consider everything by everyone, attention is always going to be limited, but we need to be aware of our own spam filter that we're avoiding dealing with all the people saying X because we find the idea dislikeable, leaving us with a less-considered position on the subject.
I won't defend this guy, I believe you regarding the baggage, I just think that ignoring voices like that is part of the problem here.
I've disagreed with you many times on many things, but I still think it's worth listening to you because you have a point of view that merits serious consideration that should not be dismissed without looking past the speaker to the content of what is said.
We often talk about 'filter bubbles' but the most important one has always existed in our own minds. It becomes an issue when we end up marking serious points by serious thinkers as if they were mere spam that we don't want to do any intellectual work to deal with. This isn't to suggest that we can read and consider everything by everyone, attention is always going to be limited, but we need to be aware of our own spam filter that we're avoiding dealing with all the people saying X because we find the idea dislikeable, leaving us with a less-considered position on the subject.
See, I'm not arguing about whether it's a good idea to rehabilitate people like Pinker. I'm saying that Pinker is going to have a hard time, in effect, rehabilitating himself, and so it's not necessarily newsworthy that he's attempting to do so (who wouldn't?) --- it won't get him anywhere. That's why I gave McWhorter as the counterexample, of someone who has a better chance at cutting through the noise.
(Cards on the table, I find Pinker odious. But I'm trying not to let my personal opinion of him color what I think is a pretty non-normative argument, at least not too much).
(Cards on the table, I find Pinker odious. But I'm trying not to let my personal opinion of him color what I think is a pretty non-normative argument, at least not too much).
I'm not really concerned about the people, I'm concerned about the trend of how much the talk about the person eclipses talk about their ideas... even as I realize that I'm falling into the same trap in this very comment.
I'm not sure how ad-hominem personal attacks suddenly became the primary way of debate.
Attack the speaker and undermine his credibility instead of arguing about what he has to say. I see it time after time in online and offline discussions.
Which kind of illustrates his point.
Attack the speaker and undermine his credibility instead of arguing about what he has to say. I see it time after time in online and offline discussions.
Which kind of illustrates his point.
I'm arguing substantively with you. The argument is about the trustworthiness of someone else. The concept of the ad hominem fallacy does not mean it is impossible to discuss someone else's credibility.
Perhaps we've had our wires crossed, and you think I'm arguing "because Pinker says campus culture is corrupted, campus culture must be fine, because Pinker is corrupted". That is not my argument.
A good resource on this is the "Ad Hominem Fallacy Fallacy" post, and I recommend it to you heartily.
Perhaps we've had our wires crossed, and you think I'm arguing "because Pinker says campus culture is corrupted, campus culture must be fine, because Pinker is corrupted". That is not my argument.
A good resource on this is the "Ad Hominem Fallacy Fallacy" post, and I recommend it to you heartily.
At a certain point the messenger becomes the message. There is a big difference between isolated events and patterns.
What baggage, specifically?
See below (and ideally reply there, if you're moved to, thanks).
This is probably the most compelling reason to view Pinker as a less-than-good-faith actor here: https://newrepublic.com/article/68044/sex-ed
In 2005 then-Harvard president started a firestorm when he suggested that women were underrepresented in STEM fields because of genetic differences in academic ability. Pinker argued that people were being too politically correct, and suggested that the (true) fact of genetic differences between men implies that there could be a genetic difference in cognitive ability.
But the assumed “fact” that women were statistically less skilled than men in STEM fields was already starting to disintegrate in 2005, as boys were falling behind academically and girls were accelerating, a trend continuing in to 2021. It is ridiculous to think that women somehow got better STEM genes in the space of 40 years. Sociological and political/economic factors are clearly responsible for the change and current discrepancy.
So the idea that the difference is “genetic” is horseshit and has been horseshit since long before 2005. Specifically, it is a bold scientific claim that contradicted current and 2005-era understanding of human biology, and requires far more evidence than some economist’s musing. Summers was wrong (factually and morally) to suggest otherwise and Pinker was wrong to defend it.
Note that Pinker didn’t merely defend Summers’s right to make unfactual remarks. Pinker defended Summers on the merits. I think he continued to defend these views as recently as 2014. In my view this (along with Pinker’s general reactionary tendencies) gives people a good reason to suspect that he’s a sexist jerk who can’t be trusted to engage with “cancel culture” issues honestly.
In 2005 then-Harvard president started a firestorm when he suggested that women were underrepresented in STEM fields because of genetic differences in academic ability. Pinker argued that people were being too politically correct, and suggested that the (true) fact of genetic differences between men implies that there could be a genetic difference in cognitive ability.
But the assumed “fact” that women were statistically less skilled than men in STEM fields was already starting to disintegrate in 2005, as boys were falling behind academically and girls were accelerating, a trend continuing in to 2021. It is ridiculous to think that women somehow got better STEM genes in the space of 40 years. Sociological and political/economic factors are clearly responsible for the change and current discrepancy.
So the idea that the difference is “genetic” is horseshit and has been horseshit since long before 2005. Specifically, it is a bold scientific claim that contradicted current and 2005-era understanding of human biology, and requires far more evidence than some economist’s musing. Summers was wrong (factually and morally) to suggest otherwise and Pinker was wrong to defend it.
Note that Pinker didn’t merely defend Summers’s right to make unfactual remarks. Pinker defended Summers on the merits. I think he continued to defend these views as recently as 2014. In my view this (along with Pinker’s general reactionary tendencies) gives people a good reason to suspect that he’s a sexist jerk who can’t be trusted to engage with “cancel culture” issues honestly.
>But the assumed “fact” that women were statistically less skilled than men in STEM fields was already starting to disintegrate in 2005, as boys were falling behind academically and girls were accelerating, a trend continuing in to 2021.
Summers' claim is not incompatible with this observation. Not only disagreeing with Summers/Pinker but questioning their fundamental standing as "good faith actors" on these grounds is sad, but unfortunately pretty common. Your assertions about the grounding or lack thereof of these ideas in 2005 are simply false, and there's a reason why Summers is still remembered as an egregiously noteworthy case of incipient cancel culture.
This seems to be the standard middlebrow recourse for having to deal with uncomfortable ideas - find a shoddy, overconfident "debunking" of the inconvenient expert view from a trusted source (this will often rely on obvious misconstruals of the claims that the expert actually made), then call the experts "bad faith actors" when they continue to espouse said views.
Summers' claim is not incompatible with this observation. Not only disagreeing with Summers/Pinker but questioning their fundamental standing as "good faith actors" on these grounds is sad, but unfortunately pretty common. Your assertions about the grounding or lack thereof of these ideas in 2005 are simply false, and there's a reason why Summers is still remembered as an egregiously noteworthy case of incipient cancel culture.
This seems to be the standard middlebrow recourse for having to deal with uncomfortable ideas - find a shoddy, overconfident "debunking" of the inconvenient expert view from a trusted source (this will often rely on obvious misconstruals of the claims that the expert actually made), then call the experts "bad faith actors" when they continue to espouse said views.
[deleted]
> why Summers is still remembered as an egregiously noteworthy case of incipient cancel culture.
Come on, man. If you’re the president of an organization and you get yourself into a situation where the majority of your women employees think you’re a reactionary bigoted jerk, then it doesn’t really matter if you actually deserved it or if you merely made a PR mistake. It doesn’t even matter if it’s due to an unfair media feeding frenzy! You are the president and you badly failed in your mission to lead that organization.
Summers absolutely deserved to lose his job as president (which was a voluntary resignation). Even if you give him the greatest possible benefit of the doubt, his actions were profoundly irresponsible leadership. And he didn’t lose tenure, he just lost a cushy side gig. Other university/corporate presidents have lost their job for far less.
Come on, man. If you’re the president of an organization and you get yourself into a situation where the majority of your women employees think you’re a reactionary bigoted jerk, then it doesn’t really matter if you actually deserved it or if you merely made a PR mistake. It doesn’t even matter if it’s due to an unfair media feeding frenzy! You are the president and you badly failed in your mission to lead that organization.
Summers absolutely deserved to lose his job as president (which was a voluntary resignation). Even if you give him the greatest possible benefit of the doubt, his actions were profoundly irresponsible leadership. And he didn’t lose tenure, he just lost a cushy side gig. Other university/corporate presidents have lost their job for far less.
>If you’re the president of an organization and you get yourself into a situation where the majority of your women employees think you’re a reactionary bigoted jerk
If Summers' comments trigger this sentiment then I think it's fair to label this as "egregiously noteworthy." It's similar to the exaggerated claims we see with regularity nowadays that those with unpopular views must be punished because they're making their peers "feel unsafe" - there was in fact an (undoubtedly less-enlightened) time when this sort of teeth-gnashing was seen as unprofessional.
If Summers' comments trigger this sentiment then I think it's fair to label this as "egregiously noteworthy." It's similar to the exaggerated claims we see with regularity nowadays that those with unpopular views must be punished because they're making their peers "feel unsafe" - there was in fact an (undoubtedly less-enlightened) time when this sort of teeth-gnashing was seen as unprofessional.
So you know the variability hypothesis to be false, then? Or you know it to have no real world consequences? How did you acquire such knowledge?
"boys were falling behind academically"
This is what I said:
> Specifically, [the “variability hypothesis”] is a bold scientific claim that contradicted current and 2005-era understanding of human biology, and requires far more evidence than some economist’s musing. Summers was wrong (factually and morally) to suggest otherwise and Pinker was wrong to defend it.
It is very much a Flying Spaghetti Monster problem: at this point the preponderance of evidence is that there is no inherent difference in the reasoning abilities of men and women, and that any measured difference is much more easily explained by societal factors than genetics. The default hypothesis is that there is no difference and I have not seen any convincing evidence otherwise - evidence which purports to show a difference is always tainted beyond usefulness.
Your argument is equivalent to the observation that I haven’t personally mapped out all of Earth’s orbit so how can I prove there’s no Flying Spaghetti Monster? It is not very convincing!
> Specifically, [the “variability hypothesis”] is a bold scientific claim that contradicted current and 2005-era understanding of human biology, and requires far more evidence than some economist’s musing. Summers was wrong (factually and morally) to suggest otherwise and Pinker was wrong to defend it.
It is very much a Flying Spaghetti Monster problem: at this point the preponderance of evidence is that there is no inherent difference in the reasoning abilities of men and women, and that any measured difference is much more easily explained by societal factors than genetics. The default hypothesis is that there is no difference and I have not seen any convincing evidence otherwise - evidence which purports to show a difference is always tainted beyond usefulness.
Your argument is equivalent to the observation that I haven’t personally mapped out all of Earth’s orbit so how can I prove there’s no Flying Spaghetti Monster? It is not very convincing!
Everyone already agrees that there aren't meaningful mean-level differences between the sexes, aside from in a small handful of personality traits or irrelevant physical traits.
You still haven't addressed why different variances (for which there is a lot of evidence) in one or more of interests/traits/skills are a nonstarter as an explanation for an outcome gap at extreme percentiles.
I'd be the first to agree that the burden of proof is on Pinker and Summers as far as advancing it from hypothesis to theory goes. But that's distinct from claiming the hypothesis itself is a nonstarter.
You still haven't addressed why different variances (for which there is a lot of evidence) in one or more of interests/traits/skills are a nonstarter as an explanation for an outcome gap at extreme percentiles.
I'd be the first to agree that the burden of proof is on Pinker and Summers as far as advancing it from hypothesis to theory goes. But that's distinct from claiming the hypothesis itself is a nonstarter.
Pinker talked up mean level differences for 2 paragraphs before turning to variance.
Who said anything about extreme percentiles?
Who said anything about extreme percentiles?
Summers did, read his exact words. He's not only talking about gender balance in science but about top performers specifically.
Also now that you mention it, there are mean level differences at a young age in interests (people vs things), which is also a plausible explanation for gender disparity in STEM, whether that difference is genetic or cultural or both.
Also now that you mention it, there are mean level differences at a young age in interests (people vs things), which is also a plausible explanation for gender disparity in STEM, whether that difference is genetic or cultural or both.
The documented median and variability differences are modest. They're enough to explain 20% women at the +4 SD level if I recall correctly. But there are too many people in STEM fields for them to be so selective.
That seems to be in line with what Summers said. Pinker talked about gender balance specifically though.
That seems to be in line with what Summers said. Pinker talked about gender balance specifically though.
> They're enough to explain 20% women at the +4 SD level if I recall correctly
That's right if we're looking at univariable distributions.
> But there are too many people in STEM fields for them to be so selective.
Actually I agree now that the variability hypothesis is insufficient to explain why there's so many more men than women that self-select into STEM.
I think a more plausible explanation is mean differences in interests (which may or may not be genetic).
The variability hypothesis can possibly help to explain things like why most chess champions are men, but it can't explain why most people that play chess in the first place are men.
That's right if we're looking at univariable distributions.
> But there are too many people in STEM fields for them to be so selective.
Actually I agree now that the variability hypothesis is insufficient to explain why there's so many more men than women that self-select into STEM.
I think a more plausible explanation is mean differences in interests (which may or may not be genetic).
The variability hypothesis can possibly help to explain things like why most chess champions are men, but it can't explain why most people that play chess in the first place are men.
I kinda feel bad for John McWhorter. On Twitter, he gets attacked as a sell-out to his race (including by white people!) for strongly holding what are basically widely held center-left positions. It's thankless work.
I wouldn't feel too bad. McWhorter has deliberately picked the fights he's in (see for instance his longstanding feud with Ta-Nehisi Coates) and deliberately associated with IDW-types specifically, I think, to troll leftists. It's too bad, because I think he's got a lot of important stuff to say about figures like Ibram X Kendi.
(Like I said, I think McWhorter is worth paying attention to. Also, he has one of the great podcasts.)
(Like I said, I think McWhorter is worth paying attention to. Also, he has one of the great podcasts.)
IDW - Intellectual Dark Web
>deliberately associated with IDW-types specifically, I think, to troll leftists.
Huh? It seems like McWhorter genuinely has a lot of intellectual overlap with "IDW-types". McWhorter himself is often considered an "IDW-type" himself, no? Why should his association be remotely surprising?
Why should the existence of a feud with TNC be intrinsically concerning? Are feuds intrinsically concerning? Or is TNC simply beyond reproach?
Huh? It seems like McWhorter genuinely has a lot of intellectual overlap with "IDW-types". McWhorter himself is often considered an "IDW-type" himself, no? Why should his association be remotely surprising?
Why should the existence of a feud with TNC be intrinsically concerning? Are feuds intrinsically concerning? Or is TNC simply beyond reproach?
You are arguing from a radically different premise than I am; I didn't say Ta-Nehisi Coates was above reproach, or that there was anything intrinsically wrong with feuding with him. I think if we're this far apart to begin with, it's probably not going to be especially productive to try to hash things out further.
I agree it doesn't help his cause. But I can totally empathize about his feud with TNC. It sticks in my craw when progressive asians claim the mantle of being asian, while pushing views that are in the minority among asians. My reaction is always "yeah, but what would your dad say?" I quite relate to this one of McWhorter's tweets: https://twitter.com/JohnHMcWhorter/status/112988149829800345....
McWhorter is a cultural hobbyist who throws bombs for attention.
I think that's also a little bit true, yes.
Aside from baggage, the article strongly suggests that Pinker has no clue about how to do it. Not only does he not offer a solution, but he hasn't even diagnosed the problem correctly. No Steven, your students are not signalling hostility to certain viewpoints because of 'Marxist critical theory and postmodernism'... even most politics students don't bother to read Adorno or Derrida and if they did they wouldn't find any suggestions to deplatform Charles Murray. And then he apparently suggests the discussion of these very marginal theories he dislikes within universities is also why some conservatives and libertarians don't find scientific consensus on global warming credible, as if the other side of the political spectrum had always trusted scientific theories whose implications conflicted with their core values until the woke left came along!
Complaining that students are being 'indoctrinated' by ideas he thinks are bad doesn't half sound like the censorious elements he's complaining about as well...
Edit: I do wish people who apparently disagree with my post would venture a defence of Pinker's "its the postmodernists" thesis. It's a marketplace of ideas...
Complaining that students are being 'indoctrinated' by ideas he thinks are bad doesn't half sound like the censorious elements he's complaining about as well...
Edit: I do wish people who apparently disagree with my post would venture a defence of Pinker's "its the postmodernists" thesis. It's a marketplace of ideas...
Pinker:
1. People are claiming victimhood to seize power
2. I am a victim of censorship!
3. You must listen to me!
That's pretty awesome to fit that in one paper.
1. People are claiming victimhood to seize power
2. I am a victim of censorship!
3. You must listen to me!
That's pretty awesome to fit that in one paper.
Im very liberally biased but when college students are getting into politics it’s tough to just say hundreds of thousands of students are wrong. I don’t think culture on college campuses can “slide downhill”. These are the people who are educated and the most invested in the future. If they don’t like something, we may want to listen.
> it’s tough to just say hundreds of thousands of students are wrong
Can you share your reasoning behind this statement? I don't find it remotely tough. If anything, it seems like the most sensible default position.
At risk of sounding glib - have you met many 18-20 year old college students?
Can you share your reasoning behind this statement? I don't find it remotely tough. If anything, it seems like the most sensible default position.
At risk of sounding glib - have you met many 18-20 year old college students?
the idealism that is common among college students is admirable, but I don't think it's at all tough to say thousands of students are wrong. about half of college students came straight from high school and have had little experience of the world outside of controlled environments designed, for better or for worse, specifically for them. many are at the very cusp of realizing just how much they don't know. I cringe to think of the simplistic and absurd positions I and my fellow students held and advocated for in college.
I always found Pinker to be a wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle kind of thinker. His simplistic views are eloquent, but flawed, however somewhat easy to communicate, which makes him popular. A true celebrity intellectual.
> The other explanation is that this new wave of illiberalism “is just the cumulative effect of several generations” of professors having indoctrinated their students in an ideological mixture of postmodernism and Marxist critical theory. Unfortunately, we have just reached the tipping point.
A friend of mine quipped recently that you can always tell who is behind the curve on their critiques of colleges when they say things like this. For several years now the actual dynamic has been that the undergraduates arrive and tell the professors what to think.
In other words, whether you agree with the students or not, Pinker isn't going to have any success here because this culture is formed long before anyone gets to college.
A friend of mine quipped recently that you can always tell who is behind the curve on their critiques of colleges when they say things like this. For several years now the actual dynamic has been that the undergraduates arrive and tell the professors what to think.
In other words, whether you agree with the students or not, Pinker isn't going to have any success here because this culture is formed long before anyone gets to college.
To be fair, times change and professors tend to be from a much different generation than the students. During the Vietnam war many professors thought the students were going too far in protesting. Professors can teach the students HOW to think and the students can teach the professors WHAT is important to them. Ideally, it's a two way street. If not then the professors are being left behind by the times.
[deleted]
tehjoker(3)
The article pitches Pinker as a man who sees the bright side of things and that liberalism is going too far on college campuses by practicing their beliefs. While he may have a point, he’s not remotely the unbiased good hearted guy the article intros him as. From Wikipedia:
In 2020, an open letter to the Linguistic Society of America requesting the removal of Pinker from its list of LSA Fellows and its list of media experts was signed by hundreds of academics.[96][97] The letter accused Pinker of a "pattern of drowning out the voices of people suffering from racist and sexist violence, in particular in the immediate aftermath of violent acts and/or protests against the systems that created them", citing as examples six tweets and a phrase used in his 2011 book.[98]
Pinker said that through this letter he was being threatened by "a regime of intimidation that constricts the theatre of ideas".[99][100][101] Several academics criticized the letter and expressed strong support for Pinker
In 2020, an open letter to the Linguistic Society of America requesting the removal of Pinker from its list of LSA Fellows and its list of media experts was signed by hundreds of academics.[96][97] The letter accused Pinker of a "pattern of drowning out the voices of people suffering from racist and sexist violence, in particular in the immediate aftermath of violent acts and/or protests against the systems that created them", citing as examples six tweets and a phrase used in his 2011 book.[98]
Pinker said that through this letter he was being threatened by "a regime of intimidation that constricts the theatre of ideas".[99][100][101] Several academics criticized the letter and expressed strong support for Pinker
The article is criticising what it calls a "wave of illiberalism", which would be the opposite of liberalism going too far.
It’s pretty amazing how much time and effort is being spent on discrediting Pinker himself without even engaging with his ideas. Go read some of his books and then debate the contents.
If you want to debate his ideas, state them and you can get a debate. Otherwise, the argument is mostly if he's in a position to "repair campus culture", and he isn't, as well as if it needs to be "repaired" at all.
> The overall trends on crime and life expectancy haven’t all of a sudden reversed.
They very much have, though, at least in the US.
They very much have, though, at least in the US.
Sources? Googling both only disproves both your claims.
Murders certainly increased markedly in major cities in 2020.
Regardless of the extent that the increase is due to statistical noise or socio-political factors: it is obviously incorrect to look at one deeply unusual year and proclaim the trend is “reversed.”
To parent's credit, the CDC did report a decline in life expectancy at birth from 2014 to 2017, but the decline was of of a couple decimal points total, which is well within standard error.
Claiming "trends are reversing" is, in fact, FUD.
Claiming "trends are reversing" is, in fact, FUD.
He had me until he threw in Charles Murray.
I want to believe these bold defenders of classical liberalism and enlightenment values, but I am not oblivious enough to the subtext. I can see what they're trying to wedge into the discussion.
It reminds me of the old 2000s intelligent design "wedge strategy" to sneak literalist creationism into schools and academia, only now it's biological racism that's got to be wedged in there. If you don't like over-zealous woke-ism, stop making them look reasonable by trying to sneak ideological racism in the back door.
It reminds me of the Monty Python dead parrot sketch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9SMUzj-_4Q
"We're not racists... we're... pining!"
If they wanted to talk about the biological basis of human behavior, there are a million better researchers in this area than Charles Murray that do not have the baggage. Try one of these people:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C36&as_yl...
Oooh look, "ethnic differences in brain structure" returns 10+ pages of papers by people who apparently are not being "cancelled." That's strange for a topic that you're supposedly not allowed to study. Maybe they're not being cancelled because they are just doing science and not trying to soft pill people on ideological racism.
These people think blacks are intellectually inferior to other races. That's what they think and they need to admit it or shut the fuck up. That is a dead parrot.
I want to believe these bold defenders of classical liberalism and enlightenment values, but I am not oblivious enough to the subtext. I can see what they're trying to wedge into the discussion.
It reminds me of the old 2000s intelligent design "wedge strategy" to sneak literalist creationism into schools and academia, only now it's biological racism that's got to be wedged in there. If you don't like over-zealous woke-ism, stop making them look reasonable by trying to sneak ideological racism in the back door.
It reminds me of the Monty Python dead parrot sketch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9SMUzj-_4Q
"We're not racists... we're... pining!"
If they wanted to talk about the biological basis of human behavior, there are a million better researchers in this area than Charles Murray that do not have the baggage. Try one of these people:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C36&as_yl...
Oooh look, "ethnic differences in brain structure" returns 10+ pages of papers by people who apparently are not being "cancelled." That's strange for a topic that you're supposedly not allowed to study. Maybe they're not being cancelled because they are just doing science and not trying to soft pill people on ideological racism.
These people think blacks are intellectually inferior to other races. That's what they think and they need to admit it or shut the fuck up. That is a dead parrot.
There was always an Overton Window and it has always been moving around. And often people (usually older people) do not like when they have opinions which are being excluded from the Overton Window when previously they were acceptable.
I find that it is best to be specific about what should be in and what should not be in the Overton Window rather than being general.
Why? Discussions of "cancel culture" seems to me to pretend to be meta discussions on whether the Overton Window should exist, but usually they are actually about whether certain topics should be within it. I find that this is a bit of a deception and used to disavow that you are unhappy with the current position of the Overton Window with regards to very specific issues, usually because if they discussed the specifics of their concern, it would actually fall outside of most people's Overton Window - thus the need to argue the meta route.