E-Scooters roll into New York(newyorker.com)
newyorker.com
E-Scooters roll into New York
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/04/26/the-e-scooters-loved-by-silicon-valley-roll-into-new-york
88 comments
I was in Southern California and lived through the boom and bust of E-scooters. Personally, I am a huge fan, but there is a long list of pros and cons worth considering.
Pros:
* Fast to start up
* Cheaper than uber
* Doesn’t depend on stations, so way more convenient
* No worry about keeping an eye on your scooter when you arrive; they were abundant enough that if yours gets taken you can grab another
* Genuinely super fun
Cons:
* Ugly; an eyesore
* Often in the way— a nightmare for accessibility
* So many companies meant you needed 5 different apps
* Vandalized/battery theft often an issue
* Not good for carrying goods
* Kinda dangerous, but then ones that topped out at 12 mph were less worth it
* Creeping up in price towards the end to help profitability, which made them also less worth it
The overall attitude was pretty split, but most of the people I know who disliked them had never ridden them. They really were INCREDIBLE for convenience. If your trip was 0.5-2 miles, they were amazing. I used them for running to shops, cafes, meeting at restaurants, etc.
I think there is a right way to do it, and that way has to include the convenience of leaving them near your destination. Bike shares that use stations are simply too annoying (if you haven’t got the map of stations memorized) to get the general public to catch on. However, they also have to be managed way better than they were at first.
Scooters were getting all types of people out of their cars, and they were good at it! Personally I really want the concept to stick around.
Pros:
* Fast to start up
* Cheaper than uber
* Doesn’t depend on stations, so way more convenient
* No worry about keeping an eye on your scooter when you arrive; they were abundant enough that if yours gets taken you can grab another
* Genuinely super fun
Cons:
* Ugly; an eyesore
* Often in the way— a nightmare for accessibility
* So many companies meant you needed 5 different apps
* Vandalized/battery theft often an issue
* Not good for carrying goods
* Kinda dangerous, but then ones that topped out at 12 mph were less worth it
* Creeping up in price towards the end to help profitability, which made them also less worth it
The overall attitude was pretty split, but most of the people I know who disliked them had never ridden them. They really were INCREDIBLE for convenience. If your trip was 0.5-2 miles, they were amazing. I used them for running to shops, cafes, meeting at restaurants, etc.
I think there is a right way to do it, and that way has to include the convenience of leaving them near your destination. Bike shares that use stations are simply too annoying (if you haven’t got the map of stations memorized) to get the general public to catch on. However, they also have to be managed way better than they were at first.
Scooters were getting all types of people out of their cars, and they were good at it! Personally I really want the concept to stick around.
> Bike shares that use stations are simply too annoying (if you haven’t got the map of stations memorized)
I’m not sure this is true everywhere. CitiBike is so dense in NYC that you can almost always walk about 3 blocks and see a station.
I’m not sure this is true everywhere. CitiBike is so dense in NYC that you can almost always walk about 3 blocks and see a station.
That's actually great to hear -- I haven't biked NYC yet, but definitely having enough stations would fix that problem!
Unfortunately after the initial honeymoon period it seems like the scooter companies have jacked up their prices. Uber costs about 50% more per minute than Bird. However most trips Uber will require fewer minutes.
Last time I flew, I thought it'd be fun to take a scooter home from the airport. I would've had to walk about a mile to the nearest scooter which based on my experience with Bird would have maybe a one in three chance of being broken. I ended up getting an Uber for $6. I guesstimated that the scooter rental (assuming nothing went wrong) would've been around $8
That said, when the prices were lower and the density was high enough that you could count on one being nearby, they were a fun way to get around
Last time I flew, I thought it'd be fun to take a scooter home from the airport. I would've had to walk about a mile to the nearest scooter which based on my experience with Bird would have maybe a one in three chance of being broken. I ended up getting an Uber for $6. I guesstimated that the scooter rental (assuming nothing went wrong) would've been around $8
That said, when the prices were lower and the density was high enough that you could count on one being nearby, they were a fun way to get around
I can't speak for electric scooters, but bike sharing is one of the best inventions I have ever experienced, and it breaks my heart when people complain about it being ugly, or an eyesore, or dangerous. As you say, often these are either people who never used it, or they are people who already have access to alternative transport that they feel is somehow superior. It's such a self-centered attitude.
Bike sharing democratizes the city, being cheap enough that even the poorest people can achieve transport independence. It should be a public service. The freedom that comes with being able to affordably pick up transport anywhere, and go anywhere, it's unparalleled in an urban context. All the dreams of self-driving cars, and in particular self-driving taxis, we already had that future and it was dockless bike share!
I agree with you that there are still issues of transporting large objects, and difficulty catering to people with physical disabilities, but let's not have perfect be the enemy of good.
Bike sharing democratizes the city, being cheap enough that even the poorest people can achieve transport independence. It should be a public service. The freedom that comes with being able to affordably pick up transport anywhere, and go anywhere, it's unparalleled in an urban context. All the dreams of self-driving cars, and in particular self-driving taxis, we already had that future and it was dockless bike share!
I agree with you that there are still issues of transporting large objects, and difficulty catering to people with physical disabilities, but let's not have perfect be the enemy of good.
You don't have to use bike/scooter sharing to see that it's an eyesore, or that people frequently drive at unsafe speeds down sidewalks. That's no more self-centered than thinking that you should be able to drive a scooter down the middle of a sidewalk meant for foot traffic, then leave it sitting wherever you want so other people have to deal with it.
I love the scooters but I completely agree that they should never be ridden on sidewalks except as a short connection between other lanes.
They belong on the road (<=30mph) and cycling infrastructure.
Regarding the eyesore and clutter, just designate one parking space every 500m or so to be scooter space and the problem is solved.
They belong on the road (<=30mph) and cycling infrastructure.
Regarding the eyesore and clutter, just designate one parking space every 500m or so to be scooter space and the problem is solved.
> Regarding the eyesore and clutter, just designate one parking space every 500m or so to be scooter space and the problem is solved.
Not quite, when people say they use them for 0.5 mile rides.
Not quite, when people say they use them for 0.5 mile rides.
I must say I don't understand that. That's about a 15 minute walk. Even a mile doesn't seem like something a healthy person (which a person riding a scooter presumably is) really needs a transportation aid for.
People are incredibly lazy
Think about extending the range you can explore over lunch.
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The only real downside to scooters is that our cities are completely designed around cars. Nobody complains about cars being in the way, messy, ugly, unsafe, or causing accessibility problems, but it's even more true of cars than it is of scooters.
The quicker we can get our cities redesigned to meet the needs of all the people who need to get around, rather than just car drivers, the better. The problems with scooters are the same problems bikes or skateboards have, but just more visible because so many people use the scooters. The only way we are ever going to find the political will to adapt cities for non-car uses is if enough people use alternate transportation to make it worthwhile, and that's going to make things messy for a while.
Imagine how awesome scooters would be if a city had as many scooter parking spaces as it did car parking spaces, and as many scooter lanes as it did car lanes...
The quicker we can get our cities redesigned to meet the needs of all the people who need to get around, rather than just car drivers, the better. The problems with scooters are the same problems bikes or skateboards have, but just more visible because so many people use the scooters. The only way we are ever going to find the political will to adapt cities for non-car uses is if enough people use alternate transportation to make it worthwhile, and that's going to make things messy for a while.
Imagine how awesome scooters would be if a city had as many scooter parking spaces as it did car parking spaces, and as many scooter lanes as it did car lanes...
>Imagine how awesome scooters would be if a city had as many scooter parking spaces as it did car parking spaces, and as many scooter lanes as it did car lanes...
Right, exactly. Parking would take up a fraction of the space of car parking, emissions would be lower, etc. (They don't necessarily need to be dedicated scooter lanes either; bikes are moving at similar speeds and with similar risk, so protected bike lanes would work well for both.)
I could bike to just about anywhere I might want to go in the city I live in within about 35 minutes. I'm sure I'd be healthier, I'd be lowering my emissions vs. driving, and in many cases I'd get there faster than via public transport: the routes don't cover everything and bus/train service is infrequent enough that you often have to wait. I don't, because I don't feel safe enough on the streets here; they're designed with cars in mind, for high speeds. I wish we had infrastructure designed for bikes and scooters alongside the car infrastructure, because I would absolutely use them.
EDIT: And if you want to see what the alternative could look like, take a look at this video and think about how many cars you would need to move all those people: https://youtu.be/ynwMN3Z9Og8
Right, exactly. Parking would take up a fraction of the space of car parking, emissions would be lower, etc. (They don't necessarily need to be dedicated scooter lanes either; bikes are moving at similar speeds and with similar risk, so protected bike lanes would work well for both.)
I could bike to just about anywhere I might want to go in the city I live in within about 35 minutes. I'm sure I'd be healthier, I'd be lowering my emissions vs. driving, and in many cases I'd get there faster than via public transport: the routes don't cover everything and bus/train service is infrequent enough that you often have to wait. I don't, because I don't feel safe enough on the streets here; they're designed with cars in mind, for high speeds. I wish we had infrastructure designed for bikes and scooters alongside the car infrastructure, because I would absolutely use them.
EDIT: And if you want to see what the alternative could look like, take a look at this video and think about how many cars you would need to move all those people: https://youtu.be/ynwMN3Z9Og8
I will always maintain that Los Angeles would benefit immensely by simply making one of the east-west surface roads stretching across the city a bike-and-bus only route! One of the first CicLAcia events was down the entire stretch of Venice Blvd from downtown to the beach. I have NEVER had so much fun biking as I did that day, and what a fun way to cross the city!
I never thought of this. Everything annoying about rental scooters applies to cars x1000. Not to mention the energy cost of moving a 2500lb vehicle and one passenger, vs a 60lb scooter and a passenger.
Yeah, it's amazing the outrage for a few bird scooters lying on the floor.
I don't "like" it but compared to everything that is wrong in most cities (dog poops, filth, pollution) .. a few devices here and there are nothing worth yelling.. and yet.
I don't "like" it but compared to everything that is wrong in most cities (dog poops, filth, pollution) .. a few devices here and there are nothing worth yelling.. and yet.
> The problems with scooters are the same problems bikes or skateboards have, but just more visible because so many people use the scooters.
I'm not so sure about this. I've never seen people leave their personal bike or skateboard in the middle of the sidewalk. At worst you may find some bike attached to a lamppost or something that will take up half a small sidewalk.
Scooters, however, are often left literally in the middle of the sidewalk, blocking the passage. This also applies to shared bikes without stations, but for some reason it seems to happen somewhat less often.
On a personal note, I've tried them a few times, and to me there are two main issues which made me stop using them:
1. We have many streets with cobblestones, and scooters are absolutely awful on those. Bikes are a pain, but somewhat bearable. It also doesn't help that most paths away from traffic have mainly cobblestones.
2. I feel really, really unsafe riding them. They have terrible acceleration, basically no brakes and don't feel stable at all. (I do ride a motorcycle though, so I may be biased). I don't feel these issues on bicycles. And I think this may explain at least some of the risky behaviour we notice around here: people loathe having to stop, accelerate or delicately manoeuvre around something.
They're also freaking expensive here compared to the shared bikes, so I much prefer the latter.
I'm not so sure about this. I've never seen people leave their personal bike or skateboard in the middle of the sidewalk. At worst you may find some bike attached to a lamppost or something that will take up half a small sidewalk.
Scooters, however, are often left literally in the middle of the sidewalk, blocking the passage. This also applies to shared bikes without stations, but for some reason it seems to happen somewhat less often.
On a personal note, I've tried them a few times, and to me there are two main issues which made me stop using them:
1. We have many streets with cobblestones, and scooters are absolutely awful on those. Bikes are a pain, but somewhat bearable. It also doesn't help that most paths away from traffic have mainly cobblestones.
2. I feel really, really unsafe riding them. They have terrible acceleration, basically no brakes and don't feel stable at all. (I do ride a motorcycle though, so I may be biased). I don't feel these issues on bicycles. And I think this may explain at least some of the risky behaviour we notice around here: people loathe having to stop, accelerate or delicately manoeuvre around something.
They're also freaking expensive here compared to the shared bikes, so I much prefer the latter.
In my view, bikes have been around long enough that most people who are riding them, have some amount of experience, that affects their habits and expectations. This would affect things like route choice, courtesy, parking, and so forth. When a newcomer shows up, they're already surrounded by experienced cyclists. A bike also demands a basic amount of skill that has to be learned somewhere. When bike shares are introduced into a town, you don't have a bunch of people on them who are riding a bike for their first time ever.
This shouldn't be technically impossible with scooters, and would happen if people owned them and brought them into the transportation mix gradually. But it doesn't fit into the "startup bubble" business model that seems to drive their rapid ascent and equally rapid disappearance in most cities.
This shouldn't be technically impossible with scooters, and would happen if people owned them and brought them into the transportation mix gradually. But it doesn't fit into the "startup bubble" business model that seems to drive their rapid ascent and equally rapid disappearance in most cities.
Also, at least until the recent trend of dockless rental bikes, you needed to physically chain up a bike to something unless you wanted it stolen.
Most of the things that one can reasonably chain a bike to are generally located on the side of the street to begin with; they may just out into the public right of way because of their size, but it doesn't usually block the whole street.
Dockless scooters have no such requirement and so it's not that surprising that people went with the path of least resistance and just dumped them in the middle.
Most of the things that one can reasonably chain a bike to are generally located on the side of the street to begin with; they may just out into the public right of way because of their size, but it doesn't usually block the whole street.
Dockless scooters have no such requirement and so it's not that surprising that people went with the path of least resistance and just dumped them in the middle.
Point 2 is true. Very few people can coast around with them. Either we need training + regulation or it will go away because too many dangers. And that's on walkways.. in France they're categorized as vehicles so they're forced to use roads and you don't want to drive anywhere near an unsure user riding at 20mph without any form of safety protection and feeble balance.
I think the scooters being left in the middle of the sidewalk is more a function of people being shitty, inconsiderate, and lazy. Unless the scooters self park themselves or people who dump them get shamed I don't see how that fixes itself.
Personal bikes/skateboards get locked up and put out of the way because people have an active interest to keep them from getting scuffed or damaged, but that factor isn't present for a rented scooter.
Personal bikes/skateboards get locked up and put out of the way because people have an active interest to keep them from getting scuffed or damaged, but that factor isn't present for a rented scooter.
> I think the scooters being left in the middle of the sidewalk is more a function of people being shitty, inconsiderate, and lazy. Unless the scooters self park themselves or people who dump them get shamed I don't see how that fixes itself.
I wholly agree. I think it's just like trash on the ground, it mostly doesn't get itself there on its own.
But maybe companies should take the habits of local people into account. If you know people won't bother to leave them out of the way, maybe don't deploy your service there? Just as if you know people are going to trash your scooters, steal batteries or anything else, you won't enter that market because it will be too expensive. But I guess the latter affects the company's bottom line, whereas the former is, at worst, just bad press.
I wholly agree. I think it's just like trash on the ground, it mostly doesn't get itself there on its own.
But maybe companies should take the habits of local people into account. If you know people won't bother to leave them out of the way, maybe don't deploy your service there? Just as if you know people are going to trash your scooters, steal batteries or anything else, you won't enter that market because it will be too expensive. But I guess the latter affects the company's bottom line, whereas the former is, at worst, just bad press.
Scooters being dumped in the middle of a useful space is a function of there being literally nowhere to park a scooter. Sure, people are lazy and selfish, but they aren't so lazy that they'll continue to take the inconsiderate option if you give them a place to put the scooter.
I don't see anybody suggesting car ownership should be forbidden from cities where there isn't enough parking. Why is providing parking only the responsibility of scooter companies, and not car companies?
Cities adapt to meet the needs of the residents, and the needs of the residents can change. That change shouldn't be forbidden because of the current structure of our cities
I don't see anybody suggesting car ownership should be forbidden from cities where there isn't enough parking. Why is providing parking only the responsibility of scooter companies, and not car companies?
Cities adapt to meet the needs of the residents, and the needs of the residents can change. That change shouldn't be forbidden because of the current structure of our cities
> Scooters being dumped in the middle of a useful space is a function of there being literally nowhere to park a scooter. Sure, people are lazy and selfish, but they aren't so lazy that they'll continue to take the inconsiderate option if you give them a place to put the scooter.
I’ve seen devoted scooter parking in a few places including Stockholm and I’ve never seen any effect on the users’ habits of throwing them down wherever.
I’ve seen devoted scooter parking in a few places including Stockholm and I’ve never seen any effect on the users’ habits of throwing them down wherever.
> but they aren't so lazy that they'll continue to take the inconsiderate option if you give them a place to put the scooter.
You'd think so. Take a stroll through the streets of Paris and then see if you still stand by this statement.
Even when the sidewalk is narrow, you can leave your scooter against a wall, not across the sidewalk. You can maybe leave it 50 meters further, where the sidewalk is wider, etc. You know, try to be considerate of other people who probably don't want to have to push your scooter out of the way just because you didn't feel like taking 10 seconds to park it properly.
When the infrastructure is lacking, you can either be a nuisance and argue that it's the city's fault for not providing wider sidewalks or whatever, or try to adapt to the situation while the city does something about it.
Of course the cities have to adapt to the needs of their residents. But they usually are slow to do that. Now, even if I personally dislike those scooters, I won't argue for outright banning them. But at some point, I can understand people being frustrated with other people being an outright nuisance.
And guess what? Paris actually has laws on the books prohibiting this (randomly blocking sidewalks, or riding a bike or motorised vehicle on them). But they are rarely enforced. So people get angry. And I figure that just as cities have to change to suit the needs of their scooter-riding residents, they also have to adapt to those of their non-scooter-riding residents, too.
Now of course, the best solution would be the one which would content both parties, but politics being what they are, it's easier to ask to outright ban things. But, again, I don't think that's always the best approach and don't personally advocate for it. I actually think that it would be better to replace cars with electric scooters, and that they do need infrastructure which the city should build (and they're actually doing it).
But I can't condone antisocial behaviour by scooter-riders while the city builds said infrastructure. And yes, if people apparently can't be trusted to ride them in a way which doesn't endanger or incommode others, maybe outright banning is a solution. I think "this is why we can't have nice things" applies perfectly here.
Also, just because cars are a nuisance it shouldn't mean that we should accept any new nuisance. We should fight back against this, and the first step is to not worsen an already bad situation.
You'd think so. Take a stroll through the streets of Paris and then see if you still stand by this statement.
Even when the sidewalk is narrow, you can leave your scooter against a wall, not across the sidewalk. You can maybe leave it 50 meters further, where the sidewalk is wider, etc. You know, try to be considerate of other people who probably don't want to have to push your scooter out of the way just because you didn't feel like taking 10 seconds to park it properly.
When the infrastructure is lacking, you can either be a nuisance and argue that it's the city's fault for not providing wider sidewalks or whatever, or try to adapt to the situation while the city does something about it.
Of course the cities have to adapt to the needs of their residents. But they usually are slow to do that. Now, even if I personally dislike those scooters, I won't argue for outright banning them. But at some point, I can understand people being frustrated with other people being an outright nuisance.
And guess what? Paris actually has laws on the books prohibiting this (randomly blocking sidewalks, or riding a bike or motorised vehicle on them). But they are rarely enforced. So people get angry. And I figure that just as cities have to change to suit the needs of their scooter-riding residents, they also have to adapt to those of their non-scooter-riding residents, too.
Now of course, the best solution would be the one which would content both parties, but politics being what they are, it's easier to ask to outright ban things. But, again, I don't think that's always the best approach and don't personally advocate for it. I actually think that it would be better to replace cars with electric scooters, and that they do need infrastructure which the city should build (and they're actually doing it).
But I can't condone antisocial behaviour by scooter-riders while the city builds said infrastructure. And yes, if people apparently can't be trusted to ride them in a way which doesn't endanger or incommode others, maybe outright banning is a solution. I think "this is why we can't have nice things" applies perfectly here.
Also, just because cars are a nuisance it shouldn't mean that we should accept any new nuisance. We should fight back against this, and the first step is to not worsen an already bad situation.
Exactly. Convert every fifth car parking spot to a scooter and bicycle parking, and the problem will go away.
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I wish! I remember years ago on Slashdot people were really hyped about this "Ginger" thing that was going to change how cities were designed. Then the Segway dropped and immediately all these science-loving, future-thinking dreamers suddenly turned into NIMBYs.
The car-centric view has such a stranglehold on modern culture. Even in places like NYC you'll find pedestrians and public transport users dumping on cyclists or electric scooter riders, as if they're doing even a fraction to destroy the livability of the city as much as cabs and other large vehicles.
The car-centric view has such a stranglehold on modern culture. Even in places like NYC you'll find pedestrians and public transport users dumping on cyclists or electric scooter riders, as if they're doing even a fraction to destroy the livability of the city as much as cabs and other large vehicles.
Segway's big fault was that it was just way too expensive. These small scooters are eventually proving the dream, mostly because normal people can actually afford them.
Price was part of it but even the company thought that they really needed to be used on sidewalks and they spent a lot of money and effort lobbying for that to be legal. (Though to be fair bike lanes were less common in the US at the time.)
As opposed to these scooter companies that just YOLOed the whole sidewalk situation and figured they would be too popular to ban once the courts/city councils finally got around to deciding what to do.
Segway solved the wrong problem; turns out that being self-balancing wasn't important at all. The real problem was parking/storage at the stops of your trip. The "shared" aspect solves that problem, making them a lot more usable.
Completely agree. I mostly get around by bike or running and I doubt I'll use scooters very much, but I'm excited for these to come to the city. The more people there are using alternative forms of transport, the more people become aware of how insane it is that we allocate so much of our scarce space in the city exclusively to the needs of car owners.
Totally true... It's often hard to think this way as we grew up with cars always there and it's not something you are used to think that our cities are just a big space that is at the service of cars and that who tries to say that is seen as stupid frik.
While we should indeed think more that reducing the space used by cars is just giving better alternatives a way to prosper without bothering pedestrians.
But really, it's not easy. Last night I was listening a guy on TV (a journalist who consider himself a progessist) who was complaining about bike lanes and that he's against the implementation they're doing in Rome because it's just at the service of the scooters, like if people driving them were 2nd class citizens. Fuck this people!
While we should indeed think more that reducing the space used by cars is just giving better alternatives a way to prosper without bothering pedestrians.
But really, it's not easy. Last night I was listening a guy on TV (a journalist who consider himself a progessist) who was complaining about bike lanes and that he's against the implementation they're doing in Rome because it's just at the service of the scooters, like if people driving them were 2nd class citizens. Fuck this people!
it'd be relatively easy and cheap to solve this problem in a lot of cities by turning all the on-street parking into schooter/bike lanes. you can fit 2 lanes (slow & fast) on each side of the road. you'd eliminate both complaints about riding on the road and on the sidewalk in one fell swoop. and, you'd internalize the cost of parking to boot.
And people don't come into your city from the outside but maybe you're OK with that.
There is no reason to rent out some of the most valuable real estate in your city for $1/hour. If people from outside want to drive in they can use a market-rate parking lot.
Not to mention the fact that on-street parking often makes stop-sign intersections very dangerous because the parked cars block all visibility, even when set back from intersections.
I have absolutely zero problem with cities putting whatever policies they want in place. And folks deciding whether to come into the city for whatever reason will make whatever decisions they want. (Which will often include cost of parking.) I'd also observe that a lot of on-street parking is allocated for local residents.
maybe at the margin, but unlikely enough to matter. in any case, either drivers will pay market prices for interior parking or park in the outskirts and ride transit into the city. either way, they could bring their bikes and scooters (or use these micromobility or ridehailing apps) for added interior range and efficiency.
There interesting thing is the increasing number of cities which are designating pedestrian only areas. I think scooters become a pretty natural way to expand and connect these areas within cities, overall making for more human oriented living.
i agree a lot. most complainers had never used it. most users were happy with it
there’s a stigma to just riding a scooter. it’s not cool. during the rent a scooter craze the lamest thing you could do was buy your own scooter for $500. i don’t know why but they have to get over that barrier before people will accept it without using it. bikes appear to have crossed that barrier, sometimes
there’s a stigma to just riding a scooter. it’s not cool. during the rent a scooter craze the lamest thing you could do was buy your own scooter for $500. i don’t know why but they have to get over that barrier before people will accept it without using it. bikes appear to have crossed that barrier, sometimes
Privately owned escooters in London are everywhere, and mostly ridden by local teenagers and young adults. I don't think they suffer from being uncool. Possibly because they're technically illegal - so owning one is a rebellious act.
why are you and the grandparent poster talking in past tense
southern california still has a lot of scooters and it is a bit more organized than it was in the past but not remarkably different, people still buy their own scooters and the major e-scooter providers have plans for you to buy your own dedicated scooter of their brand, this article is also talking in the present tense and referring to existing californian markets too
southern california still has a lot of scooters and it is a bit more organized than it was in the past but not remarkably different, people still buy their own scooters and the major e-scooter providers have plans for you to buy your own dedicated scooter of their brand, this article is also talking in the present tense and referring to existing californian markets too
Haha, I was talking in past tense because I sadly moved away; when I left there had been a temporary ban in place and wasn't sure if they were back yet.
E-scooters are an absolute plague in the city I live in. They are typically operated by inexperienced drivers, very often on sidewalks. 12 mph is enough to kill old people.
They should be banned, there is no question.
They should be banned, there is no question.
Your 4th con was the one that always got me. These rental programs don't work when meth heads frequently throw them into the ocean, middle of the street, or in water fountains.
Extra con for the ones I tried in San Francisco: The slightest hill would make them crap out.
Agreed - the common rental ones really have no power. I think Lime and its ilk are usually in the 300w range.
I bought my own scooter on a whim; it can toggle between 500w and 1000w of power, and I rarely need the 1000w except for the craziest Seattle hills.
Basically what I'm trying to say here is: totally solvable problem, just comes down to the unit cost of the rental scooters
I bought my own scooter on a whim; it can toggle between 500w and 1000w of power, and I rarely need the 1000w except for the craziest Seattle hills.
Basically what I'm trying to say here is: totally solvable problem, just comes down to the unit cost of the rental scooters
Scooters without a helmet (their normal and usual use case) are way more than "kinda" dangerous.
I don't think the fact that these are extremely dangerous to their rider is a reason to ban them, though. Let fools fuck themselves up on these death traps if they like. The danger to uninvolved pedestrians is a great reason to ban them from sidewalk use, however.
There is no justification for vehicle use on the sidewalk.
I don't think the fact that these are extremely dangerous to their rider is a reason to ban them, though. Let fools fuck themselves up on these death traps if they like. The danger to uninvolved pedestrians is a great reason to ban them from sidewalk use, however.
There is no justification for vehicle use on the sidewalk.
Here in Brussels, e-scooters are a serious plague. They are so often left in the middle of sidewalks, and they are super heavy so moving them out of the way is very annoying. Plus they start beeping like crazy.
I was on roller skates a while back, someone left a scooter in the middle of the park. I picked it up to move it, it started beeping, startled me, i fell and it fell on my hand. Took me five weeks to heal.
More bike sharing please. People tend to leave the bikes in appropriate spots. I agree the station-based bikes are awful (we have Villo here which is ridiculously bad). But JUMP and our local alternative Billy are cheaper and better ways to get through the city.
Plus those scooters fail hard on cobblestone. It took Lime almost two years to realize their scooters were not appropriate for half the city, and to replace them with a beefier model.
I was on roller skates a while back, someone left a scooter in the middle of the park. I picked it up to move it, it started beeping, startled me, i fell and it fell on my hand. Took me five weeks to heal.
More bike sharing please. People tend to leave the bikes in appropriate spots. I agree the station-based bikes are awful (we have Villo here which is ridiculously bad). But JUMP and our local alternative Billy are cheaper and better ways to get through the city.
Plus those scooters fail hard on cobblestone. It took Lime almost two years to realize their scooters were not appropriate for half the city, and to replace them with a beefier model.
George Hotz (of all people) had a great take on e-scooter as a business model.
If the startup/company puts up all the capital, has marginal costs and competition, there is never any potential for "takeoff." Impossible trifecta. That's why he thinks waymo is doomed. Uber showed that even a handful of competitors can discipline prices enough to make profiting hard. uber can at least scale without buying cars, but competition means tight margins.
It's ironic that SV-Startup world accidentally created a Perfectly Normal Business Sector and found it bemusing. It's emblemagic of current private sector conundrums. Inasmuch as price competition exists, the value of the S&P 500 approaches zero. That's chalkboard extremism, obviously... OTOH, while "Monopoly Requirement" is too strong a descriptor but "moat" is not strong enough.
The other cons (ugly/dangerous/etc.) are emblematic of current public sector conundrums. To scale scooters/biking, we need a proficient public sector. Regulation for basic safety that isn't regulating to death, or regulating badly. Also, how are we an advanced global civilization but can't adapt our cityscapes any better than literal iron age brutes. As we advance in some fields, the fields that do not advance become blatant. Our forebears dug canals with sticks, and often did a very impressive job. We can't 100X digging with sticks?
If the startup/company puts up all the capital, has marginal costs and competition, there is never any potential for "takeoff." Impossible trifecta. That's why he thinks waymo is doomed. Uber showed that even a handful of competitors can discipline prices enough to make profiting hard. uber can at least scale without buying cars, but competition means tight margins.
It's ironic that SV-Startup world accidentally created a Perfectly Normal Business Sector and found it bemusing. It's emblemagic of current private sector conundrums. Inasmuch as price competition exists, the value of the S&P 500 approaches zero. That's chalkboard extremism, obviously... OTOH, while "Monopoly Requirement" is too strong a descriptor but "moat" is not strong enough.
The other cons (ugly/dangerous/etc.) are emblematic of current public sector conundrums. To scale scooters/biking, we need a proficient public sector. Regulation for basic safety that isn't regulating to death, or regulating badly. Also, how are we an advanced global civilization but can't adapt our cityscapes any better than literal iron age brutes. As we advance in some fields, the fields that do not advance become blatant. Our forebears dug canals with sticks, and often did a very impressive job. We can't 100X digging with sticks?
What killed e-scooters was regulation, not competition.
What killed e-scooters is the fact that they are never where you need them and they are always in all the places that are annoying.
If I'm hitting the grocery store, I need a scooter near my house. The problem is that this isn't a volume point, so nobody puts more than one at a convenient point and its always gone.
Once I get to the grocery store, I need one to come home. This IS a volume point, but quite a few people walk to the store and then ride home. This drains the volume point so I can't count on having one when I need it.
However, I will be tripping over scooters generally at the halfway point (there's a very popular hipster coffee shop) when I walk to that grocery store--a point where the cost isn't worth it anymore so now the scooters just piss me off.
The problem to be solved wasn't scooters--it was roads. We need dedicated low-speed infrastructure--walking, biking, scootering, whatever, that doesn't allow cars. However, fixing that is slow, not profitable for just you, and requires that you move the political apparatus.
If I'm hitting the grocery store, I need a scooter near my house. The problem is that this isn't a volume point, so nobody puts more than one at a convenient point and its always gone.
Once I get to the grocery store, I need one to come home. This IS a volume point, but quite a few people walk to the store and then ride home. This drains the volume point so I can't count on having one when I need it.
However, I will be tripping over scooters generally at the halfway point (there's a very popular hipster coffee shop) when I walk to that grocery store--a point where the cost isn't worth it anymore so now the scooters just piss me off.
The problem to be solved wasn't scooters--it was roads. We need dedicated low-speed infrastructure--walking, biking, scootering, whatever, that doesn't allow cars. However, fixing that is slow, not profitable for just you, and requires that you move the political apparatus.
IMO, both wrong. Hotz right. :)
Regulation can't be true, because escooter rentals boomed and busted in hundreds of cities around the world. All different regulatory angles tried.
The other points (infrasture, convenience, etc.) are not relevant. Scooter rentals didn't fail because they were unpopular. They were popular, whatever the shortcomings. Demand exists.
The problem is the business model. Maybe it can be run sustainably, but it can't be run very profitably. It's not going to generate enough cash to fund exponential growth and profit margins are disciplined by a market.
There's no shortage of desire to bring tech's business models, funding models, norms and mentality to other areas. Why not bus companies? Why not wework? There has been a lot of this recently.
Inevitably, these companies encounter some difficult realities. The localized monopolies, zero marginal cost and zero capital of software businesses are requirements for many of those industries' norms. Those norms often don't work, once standard elements of "perfect markets" are brought in.
Regulation can't be true, because escooter rentals boomed and busted in hundreds of cities around the world. All different regulatory angles tried.
The other points (infrasture, convenience, etc.) are not relevant. Scooter rentals didn't fail because they were unpopular. They were popular, whatever the shortcomings. Demand exists.
The problem is the business model. Maybe it can be run sustainably, but it can't be run very profitably. It's not going to generate enough cash to fund exponential growth and profit margins are disciplined by a market.
There's no shortage of desire to bring tech's business models, funding models, norms and mentality to other areas. Why not bus companies? Why not wework? There has been a lot of this recently.
Inevitably, these companies encounter some difficult realities. The localized monopolies, zero marginal cost and zero capital of software businesses are requirements for many of those industries' norms. Those norms often don't work, once standard elements of "perfect markets" are brought in.
I love the idea of electric scooter (and bike) sharing but in practice it just doesn't work.
Link scooters just started showing up in Seattle and I decided to take one a couple miles to meet up with a friend for dinner. It would have been faster to walk there.
After bout 6 or 7 minutes of riding and only making it half a mile (and one harrowing experience with a yellow light), I stopped at a Jump bike. I opened the Uber app to book it and couldn't figure out how so I opened the Jump app. I wasn't signed in and my Uber password wasn't stored in my password manager so I had to reset my password. After doing that I finally made it into the Jump app only to have a single button that says "Launch Uber" and I was back to where I started. Of course I now had to sign in to the Uber app again since I just reset my password.
I still couldn't figure out how to book the thing so I just called a Lyft and finally made it to the restaurant. (I did finally figure out how to book it once I was in the car. I think my problem was that maybe the bike I was standing near wasn't showing up on the map.)
It was a bit of a comedy of errors last night but all my other experiences with electric scooters have been pretty inconvenient.
Link scooters just started showing up in Seattle and I decided to take one a couple miles to meet up with a friend for dinner. It would have been faster to walk there.
After bout 6 or 7 minutes of riding and only making it half a mile (and one harrowing experience with a yellow light), I stopped at a Jump bike. I opened the Uber app to book it and couldn't figure out how so I opened the Jump app. I wasn't signed in and my Uber password wasn't stored in my password manager so I had to reset my password. After doing that I finally made it into the Jump app only to have a single button that says "Launch Uber" and I was back to where I started. Of course I now had to sign in to the Uber app again since I just reset my password.
I still couldn't figure out how to book the thing so I just called a Lyft and finally made it to the restaurant. (I did finally figure out how to book it once I was in the car. I think my problem was that maybe the bike I was standing near wasn't showing up on the map.)
It was a bit of a comedy of errors last night but all my other experiences with electric scooters have been pretty inconvenient.
That's not a problem with scooter and bike sharing, but with that specific app.
I've used a whole range of bike and scooter systems, some docked and some dockless, and mostly the apps worked fine. Scan a QR code, unlock and off you go. It can definitely work seamlessly.
I've used a whole range of bike and scooter systems, some docked and some dockless, and mostly the apps worked fine. Scan a QR code, unlock and off you go. It can definitely work seamlessly.
Here you open up the app, scan the QR code and you're good to go. This is pretty much a solved problem but yes if you're logged out it can get time consuming.
The problem, to me at least, is that they're quite expensive to use. I get why. Servicing them is expensive, the scooters often get vandalized and people don't take care of them.
The problem, to me at least, is that they're quite expensive to use. I get why. Servicing them is expensive, the scooters often get vandalized and people don't take care of them.
They demoed using an NFC qr-code type sticker thingy a year and a half ago:
https://developer.apple.com/app-clips/ https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/13/18618336/apple-pay-bird-e...
It's supposed to be one tap with no app installed when you walk up to one.
https://developer.apple.com/app-clips/ https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/13/18618336/apple-pay-bird-e...
It's supposed to be one tap with no app installed when you walk up to one.
Aren't all your problems with the apps, not with the actual scooters?
The smartphone experience in a nutshell. Life was easier without them.
That seems needlessly reactionary. You really think life was easier before having an entire internet-connected computer in your pocket?
Simpler? Eh, maybe. But easier? Nah. Contact just about anyone from just about anywhere. Never need to carry a paper map (or several). Be able to look up just about any information you could need. Etc etc
Simpler? Eh, maybe. But easier? Nah. Contact just about anyone from just about anywhere. Never need to carry a paper map (or several). Be able to look up just about any information you could need. Etc etc
Holy crap, that's a lot of words. I'm pretty sure judicious editing could've halved the length of that.
Speaking as someone who lived in NYC for 10 years I am absolutely against the scooters that plague other cities coming to NYC. Why? Several reasons:
1. There are too many people on the sidewalks. At least cyclists almost always ride on the road. In my experience, amateur scooter riders think it's fine to ride an electrified vehicle (often poorly) on the sidewalk. It's not;
2. The sidewalks are too narrow already in most places. This is exacerbated by all the permits given for various news stands, outdoor seating and whatnot that create a ton of choke points on the sidewalks as is;
3. People are already really bad at effectively sharing the sidewalks as pedestrians. The three biggest categories here are tourists (this is probably the first time in their lives they've had the option of walking anywhere and it shows), phone zombies (just stop and send that text rather than walk oblivious to your surroundings at 1mph) and people who walk in groups and want to walk slowly 4 abreast.
Oh and as with cyclists, the problem isn't the delivery people. They have an economic interest in getting where they're going safely and quickly. The only time I see them (on vehicles) on the sidewalks is when they're picking up or dropping off.
It's all the shared bike and scooter people that are the problem.
At least previously the only scooter riders had their own scooter and were thus far fewer in number.
In other cities (eg Miami, even SF), the pedestrian density is far lower so it's less of a problem.
Oh and of course people just dump the shared scooters in the middle of the sidewalk. Honestly, they're a menace.
Here's a compromise: get rid of 1 lane of parking on each street and widen both sidewalks by the space saved. Then there might be room.
Speaking as someone who lived in NYC for 10 years I am absolutely against the scooters that plague other cities coming to NYC. Why? Several reasons:
1. There are too many people on the sidewalks. At least cyclists almost always ride on the road. In my experience, amateur scooter riders think it's fine to ride an electrified vehicle (often poorly) on the sidewalk. It's not;
2. The sidewalks are too narrow already in most places. This is exacerbated by all the permits given for various news stands, outdoor seating and whatnot that create a ton of choke points on the sidewalks as is;
3. People are already really bad at effectively sharing the sidewalks as pedestrians. The three biggest categories here are tourists (this is probably the first time in their lives they've had the option of walking anywhere and it shows), phone zombies (just stop and send that text rather than walk oblivious to your surroundings at 1mph) and people who walk in groups and want to walk slowly 4 abreast.
Oh and as with cyclists, the problem isn't the delivery people. They have an economic interest in getting where they're going safely and quickly. The only time I see them (on vehicles) on the sidewalks is when they're picking up or dropping off.
It's all the shared bike and scooter people that are the problem.
At least previously the only scooter riders had their own scooter and were thus far fewer in number.
In other cities (eg Miami, even SF), the pedestrian density is far lower so it's less of a problem.
Oh and of course people just dump the shared scooters in the middle of the sidewalk. Honestly, they're a menace.
Here's a compromise: get rid of 1 lane of parking on each street and widen both sidewalks by the space saved. Then there might be room.
That is the style of the New Yorker. They throw some cartoons to break up the wall of text and go deeper into the personalities of who they covering (e.g. they built up suspense on which company was going to win the bid at the end).
More to the point, the article discusses the strict geofencing scooter makers are putting in place to prevent sidewalk use and parking in a non-designated spot. In SF, for example, if you try to end your ride in the wrong spot, you can’t, and would keep racking up charges. Their scooters also contain electronic bike chains, so you have to actually lock the scooter to a rack to properly end it. Seemed to work okay and encouraged me to place it in the right spot.
I agree dedicated lanes are the best way forward. Once you have that, go all in on scooters and other e-* technology and avoid the short cab / Uber rides completely.
More to the point, the article discusses the strict geofencing scooter makers are putting in place to prevent sidewalk use and parking in a non-designated spot. In SF, for example, if you try to end your ride in the wrong spot, you can’t, and would keep racking up charges. Their scooters also contain electronic bike chains, so you have to actually lock the scooter to a rack to properly end it. Seemed to work okay and encouraged me to place it in the right spot.
I agree dedicated lanes are the best way forward. Once you have that, go all in on scooters and other e-* technology and avoid the short cab / Uber rides completely.
I love owning an electric scooter in a city in which no companies are allowed to rent them. All the upside of using it, none of the downside of people hating on them.
Archived version of the article for those paywalled
https://archive.is/pSC7V
https://archive.is/pSC7V
The main problem I've experienced with bike shares (NYC Citibike) is that often enough, there are no bikes when you need them, and the docks are full when you need to dock them. This situation isn't frequent, but still common enough to be annoying.
The biggest benefit of e-scooters (and e-skateboards for that matter) is that you can fold them and take them into buildings. You can't do that with a bicycle - ok you can with a folding bike, but if you need to lug them for more than a few minutes they're quite heavy and cumbersome.
The biggest benefit of e-scooters (and e-skateboards for that matter) is that you can fold them and take them into buildings. You can't do that with a bicycle - ok you can with a folding bike, but if you need to lug them for more than a few minutes they're quite heavy and cumbersome.
Chicago's bikeshare has an app that shows how many bikes/spaces are available at each dock. There are docks every couple blocks, so you can easily plan the ride.
New York's does too
How many thousands of words and no mention of Revel?
Vespa-like electric scooter company operating in NYC for the last few years.
Solves a ton of problems:
1) faster snd operates in traffic (so less issue with their 25mph speed vs bikes, not operated on sidewalks so fewer peds to mow over, etc)
2) requires full-face helmet use and cursory safety training
3) street parks, and user is liable for tickets, which keeps them off the sidewalk and brings the city revenue
4) they’ve been good citizens, responsive to issues their riders cause
5) I don’t want to die from embarrassment being seen on one.
Vespa-like electric scooter company operating in NYC for the last few years.
Solves a ton of problems:
1) faster snd operates in traffic (so less issue with their 25mph speed vs bikes, not operated on sidewalks so fewer peds to mow over, etc)
2) requires full-face helmet use and cursory safety training
3) street parks, and user is liable for tickets, which keeps them off the sidewalk and brings the city revenue
4) they’ve been good citizens, responsive to issues their riders cause
5) I don’t want to die from embarrassment being seen on one.
I'm very glad Revel exists for scooter transport on demand (and really miss car2go for on-demand cars), however:
1. The Revel scooters feel somewhat sketchy to ride 2. Prices have crept up significantly. A 14 minute ride I just took was 10+ bucks, which isn't too much different than being chauffeured in an Uber/Lyft. I'd guess Revel is still operating at a loss, there is just less VC capital funding the rides now.
1. The Revel scooters feel somewhat sketchy to ride 2. Prices have crept up significantly. A 14 minute ride I just took was 10+ bucks, which isn't too much different than being chauffeured in an Uber/Lyft. I'd guess Revel is still operating at a loss, there is just less VC capital funding the rides now.
Actually they're limited to 29 mph, which is fast enough to ride the green wave. And they require a DOT-approved helmet, but I don't see anything saying it has to be full-face – although the ones they supply are.
Might not work most places you need at least a partial Bike license and often for sensible commuting scooters >125 cc you need a full bike license.
I mean a Vespa here and not those tiny wheel abominations
I mean a Vespa here and not those tiny wheel abominations
One aspect that seems unacknowledged (maybe it is in the article, I haven't finished it) is weather. I bought an electric scooter and happily used it along with biking last summer. However the moment it turned cold in New York, scootering became significantly less appealing. My hands get really cold; snow, slush and ice increase danger and my friends were less likely to want to come with me.
It's quite noticeable that the cities cited are all relatively warm places. I bet that as scooters expand to colder areas, they'll have a harder time with adoption.
Edit: the article does acknowledge it!
> If nothing else, the day would prove conclusively that scootering is not the best mode of travel in the dead of a New York winter. You can’t put your hands in your pockets while driving or lean into the wind. In a lot of ways, walking that last mile works better, and it’s free.
It's quite noticeable that the cities cited are all relatively warm places. I bet that as scooters expand to colder areas, they'll have a harder time with adoption.
Edit: the article does acknowledge it!
> If nothing else, the day would prove conclusively that scootering is not the best mode of travel in the dead of a New York winter. You can’t put your hands in your pockets while driving or lean into the wind. In a lot of ways, walking that last mile works better, and it’s free.
Can't speak to e-scooters in particular, but cold weather gets cited as a problem for bikes as well, so thought I'd bring this up: for bikes at least it's as much of a question of infrastructure priorities as it is the weather itself. Plenty of people bike in places with much colder weather than New York all the time: https://youtu.be/Uhx-26GfCBU
...they just have safe paths to ride on, and those paths get maintained. (So: not a painted bike lane that all the snow gets shoveled into.)
...they just have safe paths to ride on, and those paths get maintained. (So: not a painted bike lane that all the snow gets shoveled into.)
That's true, but there's something to be said about culture. Bikes in the Netherlands are a way of life. Bikes in the US are recreational/occasionally professional. If people are inconvenienced, they just won't use it.
Not to mention in New York, there's already significant risks that come with biking/scootering. You always always have to share the road for at least some part of the trip and are constantly at risk of car doors, pedestrians and ironically, really fast e-bikes. I know that during the summer the benefits outweigh the risks, at least during pandemic. During the winter with ice and snow? Hell no.
Not to mention in New York, there's already significant risks that come with biking/scootering. You always always have to share the road for at least some part of the trip and are constantly at risk of car doors, pedestrians and ironically, really fast e-bikes. I know that during the summer the benefits outweigh the risks, at least during pandemic. During the winter with ice and snow? Hell no.
Culture might be the reason the Netherlands started down the path they're on today of building more bicycle infrastructure and we haven't, but...
The thing is, culture influences infrastructure, but the reverse is also true. Bikes in the Netherlands are a way of life partly because it's very safe to bike to your destination there! You don't need Dutch culture to get to that point, look at Vancouver: https://youtu.be/N9JHfFutvik
You're right that at the moment, bikes in the US are mostly considered to be recreational, and as a result they're not treated seriously as transportation. But I think people will get to where they're going however is most convenient, and as a result we can get more people cycling by making it more convenient.
(You can count me as one of those people; I have little interest in cycling for recreation, but I would absolutely bike around the city if it were safer. Given the limited reach of our public transit, it would honestly be the quickest way to get where I need to go most of the time.)
The thing is, culture influences infrastructure, but the reverse is also true. Bikes in the Netherlands are a way of life partly because it's very safe to bike to your destination there! You don't need Dutch culture to get to that point, look at Vancouver: https://youtu.be/N9JHfFutvik
You're right that at the moment, bikes in the US are mostly considered to be recreational, and as a result they're not treated seriously as transportation. But I think people will get to where they're going however is most convenient, and as a result we can get more people cycling by making it more convenient.
(You can count me as one of those people; I have little interest in cycling for recreation, but I would absolutely bike around the city if it were safer. Given the limited reach of our public transit, it would honestly be the quickest way to get where I need to go most of the time.)
It's like finland has bicycle superhighways. What a cool environment.
As someone who lives in a city with a pretty active winter-biking culture, overcoming the problems of winter with an e-scooter is a non-starter. Riders here have fat bikes, studded tires, and gloves that slide onto the handlebars. Even converting a bikeshare fleet would be tough, but converting scooters with tiny wheels would be impossible.
Well, there are plenty of companies operating in for example Stockholm, Oslo and Helsinki. Just like regular bicycles thre are more riders in the summer than in thr winter.
I was going to make a snarky comment about finally legalizing electric bikes before messing with scooters, but I see that this happened last year.
https://dmv.ny.gov/registration/electric-scooters-and-bicycl...
https://dmv.ny.gov/registration/electric-scooters-and-bicycl...
Strictly already illegal in NYC.
I hate the scooters. I do not live in SV. People ride them like jackasses and cause problems for both drivers and pedestrians.