Ask HN: I think I hate the software development industry? Am I crazy?
80 comments
1. First consider the possibility that this is a "life" thing and not just a "work" thing. Your username signals "I'm so depressed and fed up with it all", but what "it" really is can be harder to grasp than a current source of pain like your job.
2. You're also trying to sabotage change within yourself by saying "oh, but it'll take so long/be so expensive". You were not done the moment you left school. That's a common belief that is imposed upon young people, but carried to its conclusion, it's rather ugly and implies that you're either a huge success or eternally damned at age 30, and all events after that point are handwaved away in a Logan's Run fashion. 30 is more commonly a point where people in our society start to get a sense of their actual career path and shift from "consumers" of the current culture to "architects" of the next culture; what preceded that was mostly performative in the average case, a demonstrative adulting to "make the grade", and employment as a footsoldier for this or that ideology. You are cynical about this behavior already(hence your low opinion of the FAANG stereotype). It is therefore time to let go of youthful impulses and seek reflection.
3. This is the point where you should go study the extracurriculars you bypassed the first time because they weren't "practical". You can limit it to one a semester, night classes, online classes. You don't have to rush into a new degree. Through works of art, studied or improvised performance, sporting achievements, philosophising and general appreciation of the human condition, you can loosen the grip on things you have come to hate and start taking some new ones. The arts never have to become your profession, but they will let you see yourself better.
2. You're also trying to sabotage change within yourself by saying "oh, but it'll take so long/be so expensive". You were not done the moment you left school. That's a common belief that is imposed upon young people, but carried to its conclusion, it's rather ugly and implies that you're either a huge success or eternally damned at age 30, and all events after that point are handwaved away in a Logan's Run fashion. 30 is more commonly a point where people in our society start to get a sense of their actual career path and shift from "consumers" of the current culture to "architects" of the next culture; what preceded that was mostly performative in the average case, a demonstrative adulting to "make the grade", and employment as a footsoldier for this or that ideology. You are cynical about this behavior already(hence your low opinion of the FAANG stereotype). It is therefore time to let go of youthful impulses and seek reflection.
3. This is the point where you should go study the extracurriculars you bypassed the first time because they weren't "practical". You can limit it to one a semester, night classes, online classes. You don't have to rush into a new degree. Through works of art, studied or improvised performance, sporting achievements, philosophising and general appreciation of the human condition, you can loosen the grip on things you have come to hate and start taking some new ones. The arts never have to become your profession, but they will let you see yourself better.
>30 is more commonly a point where people in our society start to get a sense of their actual career path and shift from "consumers" of the current culture to "architects" of the next culture
An insightful and eloquent observation that matches my experience in the workplace. In my thirties, I started to have career opportunities tangential to programming, paths and directions I could have followed into management, marketing, architecture, or hardware. I chose to stay with programming because I liked it, and still like it now that I'm out of my thirties. You are not locked in to anything, no matter what your title or role is today, and you'll learn more from inside than from on the sidelines.
An insightful and eloquent observation that matches my experience in the workplace. In my thirties, I started to have career opportunities tangential to programming, paths and directions I could have followed into management, marketing, architecture, or hardware. I chose to stay with programming because I liked it, and still like it now that I'm out of my thirties. You are not locked in to anything, no matter what your title or role is today, and you'll learn more from inside than from on the sidelines.
Hands down: "best answer".
I've spent 5 years at university and turning 30 this year, I'm going to quit my job in about a month and throw it all away. Can't say that my family is thrilled but I'm gaining weight like crazy, don't like my job, I don't fit in the culture, I don't like sitting down all day in front of a computer, I drink to much because of this.
I'm playing with the thought of opening a store in some small country town where I can cook food and sell basic necessities.
Is it a good plan, who knows but going on like I do now is also unsustainable.
So you're not alone and sometimes you just have to go for it.
I'm playing with the thought of opening a store in some small country town where I can cook food and sell basic necessities.
Is it a good plan, who knows but going on like I do now is also unsustainable.
So you're not alone and sometimes you just have to go for it.
>I'm playing with the thought of opening a store in some small country town where I can cook food and sell basic necessities.
my experience with people who decide to go live somewhere rural after giving up on the suburban/urban existence.
1. you will probably be the outsider, for more than a decade. It's not Schitt's creek.
2. small country store does not actually seem like a sustainable business model in today's world. You might end up having to work at Walmart's in a few years
sorry if it sounds harsh, but my experience is if you want to move from a situation you find unendurable you have to be disciplined not to try to dream yourself to a better place.
What to do then? No idea, I know a guy who quit programming to be personal trainer / masseuse. I would hate that. Even the worst programming job I ever had would be preferable to me. So I don't think I can really suggest optimal strategies, just point out the weakness in the one you're considering. Which I guess makes this a very HN comment.
my experience with people who decide to go live somewhere rural after giving up on the suburban/urban existence.
1. you will probably be the outsider, for more than a decade. It's not Schitt's creek.
2. small country store does not actually seem like a sustainable business model in today's world. You might end up having to work at Walmart's in a few years
sorry if it sounds harsh, but my experience is if you want to move from a situation you find unendurable you have to be disciplined not to try to dream yourself to a better place.
What to do then? No idea, I know a guy who quit programming to be personal trainer / masseuse. I would hate that. Even the worst programming job I ever had would be preferable to me. So I don't think I can really suggest optimal strategies, just point out the weakness in the one you're considering. Which I guess makes this a very HN comment.
I come from a small country town and moved in to the city and have disliked living here since the start, multiple cities actually. And yes I know that country people are special when it comes to accepting new people.
It won't be easy but France24 had some good stories about people who had done just that. They worked hard but for the moment they seemed to think that they had made the right decisions. I have enough money to live for more than a year without making a single penny so it's not that as bad as it sound.
Well plan C is going back to industrial work I did during the summers at university. Very dirty, very rough but at the end of the day I felt better than I do now. My boss said that I can come back anytime so that's always a backup.
It won't be easy but France24 had some good stories about people who had done just that. They worked hard but for the moment they seemed to think that they had made the right decisions. I have enough money to live for more than a year without making a single penny so it's not that as bad as it sound.
Well plan C is going back to industrial work I did during the summers at university. Very dirty, very rough but at the end of the day I felt better than I do now. My boss said that I can come back anytime so that's always a backup.
> It won't be easy but France24 had some good stories about people who had done just that.
Do you live in France/the EU? If so, I suspect moving to a lower paying position offering greater job satisfaction will be much more feasible than if you live in the US.
Do you live in France/the EU? If so, I suspect moving to a lower paying position offering greater job satisfaction will be much more feasible than if you live in the US.
Health is extremely important, so if you are gaining weight quickly you should address this issue seriously. Switching from a boring office job to a job where you cook and have access to a lot of food has its risks from the point of view of someone who just read your comment.
From your comment, it seems that you may eat and drink to cope with your problems. If reducing your calories intake on the long term is very difficult, you should consider seeking professional help, notably psychological help. That will improve the quality and duration of your life.
From your comment, it seems that you may eat and drink to cope with your problems. If reducing your calories intake on the long term is very difficult, you should consider seeking professional help, notably psychological help. That will improve the quality and duration of your life.
Not really sure why you're being down voted, you're right.
And yes I eat and drink to cope with my problems, but knowing what the problem is often no enough to fix it.
And yes I eat and drink to cope with my problems, but knowing what the problem is often no enough to fix it.
And OP shouldn't assume completely changing his life won't also be stressful. Moving away from everything you know is hard.
By starting a business you'll also add stressors. The financial security and low-risk nature of software development is one of the best parts.
By starting a business you'll also add stressors. The financial security and low-risk nature of software development is one of the best parts.
I recommend staying, even living, in hostels for a while. Also, stay in a crew house in Fort Lauderdale starting late October. You might find some interesting adventures.
Yes I do plan on jumping around for a while to see if I find anything else that tickles me.
So what are you going to do for work instead?
Just do something else then.
A programming YouTuber "bisqwit" has quit his job as a programmer and now drives a bus. Judging by his content, which I highly recommend, he is still passionate about code, he just prefers a day job that requires less thinking.
Closer to me, a friend of mine was a project manager and in his 30s switched to photography (mostly wedding), and he is quite successful, his style is about capturing emotions. He found that the software industry, and office work in general was dehumanizing.
Another friend, again in his 30s took advantage of the fact his company does both software and mechanical engineering to switch from one to the other. Less pay, because of the relative lack of experience, but he is going back up. He preferred to work with tangible things. It is the opposite change from a lot of old devs who switched from traditional engineering to software.
There are thousands of stories like that.
A programming YouTuber "bisqwit" has quit his job as a programmer and now drives a bus. Judging by his content, which I highly recommend, he is still passionate about code, he just prefers a day job that requires less thinking.
Closer to me, a friend of mine was a project manager and in his 30s switched to photography (mostly wedding), and he is quite successful, his style is about capturing emotions. He found that the software industry, and office work in general was dehumanizing.
Another friend, again in his 30s took advantage of the fact his company does both software and mechanical engineering to switch from one to the other. Less pay, because of the relative lack of experience, but he is going back up. He preferred to work with tangible things. It is the opposite change from a lot of old devs who switched from traditional engineering to software.
There are thousands of stories like that.
I think he took a job as a developer again in 2016. Bisqwit is also in Finland which a) has strong, robust social services and welfare b) not as huge pay gap between public servants and software engineers as the US.
Same boat as you. It's been progressively worse over the years, I think it's a result of political polarisation happening in society.
I kind of solved it by building my own tech business and consulting if I need cash.
Building your own business can be draining if you're in startup mode - but if you're chill and not trying to risk half a million pursuing millions, you can do a nice small business that earn some money you can live on.
I needed to consult a few times because my side projects got destroyed by google (change in ad revenue) or stopped working for whatever reason. It's not ideal but you'd appreciate the shorter stints, compared to full time jobs. I can't stand most people in tech for more than 6 months, anyway.
I dipped my feet in in full time employment, but that was mainly to collect paternity benefits and because with small kids it's harder to do all the things you need to run a business.
I have more than a few friends who are equally tired of the environment. Maybe we should start a company for developers who hate the tech scene?
Best of luck!
I kind of solved it by building my own tech business and consulting if I need cash.
Building your own business can be draining if you're in startup mode - but if you're chill and not trying to risk half a million pursuing millions, you can do a nice small business that earn some money you can live on.
I needed to consult a few times because my side projects got destroyed by google (change in ad revenue) or stopped working for whatever reason. It's not ideal but you'd appreciate the shorter stints, compared to full time jobs. I can't stand most people in tech for more than 6 months, anyway.
I dipped my feet in in full time employment, but that was mainly to collect paternity benefits and because with small kids it's harder to do all the things you need to run a business.
I have more than a few friends who are equally tired of the environment. Maybe we should start a company for developers who hate the tech scene?
Best of luck!
> I hate the work, hate the people, the culture, etc.
I’ve encountered massively different cultures at different jobs, I don’t believe there is a single tech culture.
> I’ve considered maybe just doing the leetcode circus and trying to land mind numbing FAANG job.
Regarding FAANG my experience is entirely second hand and mostly from people at Google. I don’t know how you came to the belief that it’s “mind numbing”. The only conclusion I can draw from everything I’ve heard is that it’s not uniform. Some people have great assignments and great bosses, some crap and crap.
Based on these two things, I’m wondering if you really have the breadth of experience to make these generalizations and conclusions, but on the other hand...
> I’ve never been a particularly good software developer compared to many of the people I’ve interacted with.
That’s not a great sign, you’re reporting not to like dev work and additionally not being particularly great at it. I’m not convinced you have a lack of aptitude, this may very well be a result of lack of interest, regardless that’s a large red flag in my book.
The most persuasive bit you’ve said for leaving the industry was disliking the people. For me, one of the best parts about being an engineer is being around people I get along with. In very general terms I believe there is a typical engineer personality; it comes down to the way we think about the world around us, and how we approach problems. If you have some other way to earn a living doing work you like around people you like I’d probably just do that instead; a few years lost to school and some debt seem like a relatively small price to pay.
I’ve encountered massively different cultures at different jobs, I don’t believe there is a single tech culture.
> I’ve considered maybe just doing the leetcode circus and trying to land mind numbing FAANG job.
Regarding FAANG my experience is entirely second hand and mostly from people at Google. I don’t know how you came to the belief that it’s “mind numbing”. The only conclusion I can draw from everything I’ve heard is that it’s not uniform. Some people have great assignments and great bosses, some crap and crap.
Based on these two things, I’m wondering if you really have the breadth of experience to make these generalizations and conclusions, but on the other hand...
> I’ve never been a particularly good software developer compared to many of the people I’ve interacted with.
That’s not a great sign, you’re reporting not to like dev work and additionally not being particularly great at it. I’m not convinced you have a lack of aptitude, this may very well be a result of lack of interest, regardless that’s a large red flag in my book.
The most persuasive bit you’ve said for leaving the industry was disliking the people. For me, one of the best parts about being an engineer is being around people I get along with. In very general terms I believe there is a typical engineer personality; it comes down to the way we think about the world around us, and how we approach problems. If you have some other way to earn a living doing work you like around people you like I’d probably just do that instead; a few years lost to school and some debt seem like a relatively small price to pay.
I've been where you are, and considered packing it all in. As others have said, not all software shops are the same so I don't agree that there's a universal software dev culture... ignore the silicon valley lot.
If you are set on leaving software dev, you could side step into something like computer/network security... which requires many of the skills you already have.
Additional stop comparing yourself to others, in my case I was doing it and getting incredibly depressed when my peers were getting promotions when I've not moved in 7 years. The way I deal with it is to realise that those people getting promotions are having to do the kind of work I'd personally hate (people management, etc). I'm more happy staying down in the technical weeds. It's not about money - as you've said it's more about happiness.
Good luck
If you are set on leaving software dev, you could side step into something like computer/network security... which requires many of the skills you already have.
Additional stop comparing yourself to others, in my case I was doing it and getting incredibly depressed when my peers were getting promotions when I've not moved in 7 years. The way I deal with it is to realise that those people getting promotions are having to do the kind of work I'd personally hate (people management, etc). I'm more happy staying down in the technical weeds. It's not about money - as you've said it's more about happiness.
Good luck
FWIW, I think "the culture" of software is overstated. There's a wide range of companies doing software, with very different approaches and cultures, it's just that some parts get a lot more publicity and attention. Hard to say without knowing what exactly you are referring to.
Similarly, hard to comment on options to jump elsewhere without details. I'd generally argue that there are likely adjacent alternatives, but of course you might find those equally unacceptable.
Similarly, hard to comment on options to jump elsewhere without details. I'd generally argue that there are likely adjacent alternatives, but of course you might find those equally unacceptable.
This. You sometimes have to reroll the dice a few times before you find a place with a good culture.
Personally I've found that I'm most comfortable at a place where people have a deep discipline they have specialized into. Companies doing robotics or genomics or machine learning are great. There's more respect for software engineers. Companies doing an "app" or a "SaaS" aren't my favorite. You meet a lot of perpetual beginner "experts" who warp the culture into a respect being based on who can cargo cult fastest.
Personally I've found that I'm most comfortable at a place where people have a deep discipline they have specialized into. Companies doing robotics or genomics or machine learning are great. There's more respect for software engineers. Companies doing an "app" or a "SaaS" aren't my favorite. You meet a lot of perpetual beginner "experts" who warp the culture into a respect being based on who can cargo cult fastest.
You have organizations that see themselves as "software" companies that have their own set of problems.
Many others see themselves as "libraries", "geospatial analysts", "insurance companies" and share the issue that being a programmer slots you into a certain place in the social hierarchy. You might be happy as a clam in that kind of place assuming you can accept that there is a ceiling you'll never get past as a programmer.
Many others see themselves as "libraries", "geospatial analysts", "insurance companies" and share the issue that being a programmer slots you into a certain place in the social hierarchy. You might be happy as a clam in that kind of place assuming you can accept that there is a ceiling you'll never get past as a programmer.
Yes, that too. The "software department" can be a handful people somewhere, doing the software part of a product that's a small part of the overall company. Very different than a company that only builds one large software/service product.
Then don't
Nothing good comes from forcing yourself to do something you hate. Even if you're succesful it probably won't be worth it in the end, and given how much you hate it you're probably not going to be succesful at it (its basically impossible to succed at something you hate).
It sounds like you feel trapped. Consider talking to a therapist. They can help you come up with a plan to slowly make changes in your life to make it more into whatever it is you want it to be.
Nothing good comes from forcing yourself to do something you hate. Even if you're succesful it probably won't be worth it in the end, and given how much you hate it you're probably not going to be succesful at it (its basically impossible to succed at something you hate).
It sounds like you feel trapped. Consider talking to a therapist. They can help you come up with a plan to slowly make changes in your life to make it more into whatever it is you want it to be.
Your user name scares me a little. Of course it’s not strange that you hate all of this (I really like the job myself but I can certainly understand why you might not like it).
With respect, you’re making contradictory statements. If you’re actually teetering on the edge of suicide, it’s time to quit. During hard times in my life when I’ve had to make these decisions, I have literally regarded them as a matter of survival. I am in one of those inflection points myself, as a matter fact. Right now my health is so bad that I’ve told my wife that to get my blood sugar and weight to a healthy level may require that we sell the house because I may not be able to keep my easy-to-run business running. That’s how astoundingly difficult it is for me to lose weight. (Admittedly we have a farm right nearby we can move into, but it will be, well, a bit rustic and very unfinished.) So I get it.
It might be time for you to go back to living with a few roommates and returning to some mindnumbing low pressure job or even moving back in with family members, if that is at all feasible. These are unpleasant solutions, but they are probably better than dying of a heart attack or killing yourself. This will give you time to design a new approach to your life.
With respect, you’re making contradictory statements. If you’re actually teetering on the edge of suicide, it’s time to quit. During hard times in my life when I’ve had to make these decisions, I have literally regarded them as a matter of survival. I am in one of those inflection points myself, as a matter fact. Right now my health is so bad that I’ve told my wife that to get my blood sugar and weight to a healthy level may require that we sell the house because I may not be able to keep my easy-to-run business running. That’s how astoundingly difficult it is for me to lose weight. (Admittedly we have a farm right nearby we can move into, but it will be, well, a bit rustic and very unfinished.) So I get it.
It might be time for you to go back to living with a few roommates and returning to some mindnumbing low pressure job or even moving back in with family members, if that is at all feasible. These are unpleasant solutions, but they are probably better than dying of a heart attack or killing yourself. This will give you time to design a new approach to your life.
man I second this notion. IT can suck the life out of you in some jobs, other jobs are simply joyous, and one situation can turn into another just by the luck of some random hire who now sits above you in the pecking order.
For folks who want to "tune out" for a bit, getting a non IT job can do it, but we do get used to the pay and I know each time for me, the paycut is "noticeable" to say the least. For me, getting/being a roomie helped loads with the money.
Software is beautiful and dancing with complexity ranks amongst some of my favorite experiences, its the people, man, especially the bosses, I've had both treasured mentors and terrible monsters and it seems to be completely random and ever changing. Its never killed my affection for the art of computer programming tho, everytime I've taken time off from IT, I've started my own programming project or two, and pretend I'm more talented than I am, because honestly computers to me are like the greatest toy ever!
I wish everyone the best of luck!
For folks who want to "tune out" for a bit, getting a non IT job can do it, but we do get used to the pay and I know each time for me, the paycut is "noticeable" to say the least. For me, getting/being a roomie helped loads with the money.
Software is beautiful and dancing with complexity ranks amongst some of my favorite experiences, its the people, man, especially the bosses, I've had both treasured mentors and terrible monsters and it seems to be completely random and ever changing. Its never killed my affection for the art of computer programming tho, everytime I've taken time off from IT, I've started my own programming project or two, and pretend I'm more talented than I am, because honestly computers to me are like the greatest toy ever!
I wish everyone the best of luck!
Sorry, name was a poor choice. I did not mean it in a suicidal way, more of a just a play on “hello world” for a quick throwaway name.
Relieved, thanks! My best on your journey.
You need to look into insulin resistance and how to fix it. Key words intermittent fasting. look for Dr. Eric Berg Dr Jason Fung and Dr Benjamin Bikman on YT.
Already doing all that stuff, got my numbers way down! Blood glucose averages about 102 from 188 the last 8 weeks, weight down 30 lbs. And thanks. I was exaggerating a tiny bit for O.P. I literally was in that position within the last month. I seem to be over the hump but I am still ready to give up the house should I fall back into a long decline, as addicts can.
P.S. for me intermittent fasting turns out to be absolutely irrelevant to my blood glucose. What does work amazingly well is ruthlessly deleting most but not all carbs from my diet. Incredibly, my carb cravings have greatly subsided for the first time in 50 years. I imagine this could change but that’s what works now.
P.S. for me intermittent fasting turns out to be absolutely irrelevant to my blood glucose. What does work amazingly well is ruthlessly deleting most but not all carbs from my diet. Incredibly, my carb cravings have greatly subsided for the first time in 50 years. I imagine this could change but that’s what works now.
I wouldn't let time or age define this sort of decision. Some other folks have commented some sound advice here, but I'd say in general:
1. Reflect on what you actually have enjoyed out of the job, if anything. What have been any bright spots? If there's nothing at the job, what outside of work motivates you to do more of it? 2. What jobs have more of those things you like? These aren't always huge, deep things. Like writing? Take a look at marketing, journalism, technical sales support, etc. Like working with customers? Look at sales, customer support, etc. 3. As other people have said, look to see if it's really the whole industry, or just the current situation you're in. I've found a lot of differences in culture/people/day-to-day work just by moving teams, let alone companies. Talk to friends and see if things are different for them at other companies. Talk to friends in different jobs completely. See what resonates with you.
Hope that helps and again, don't worry about age! Pivoting at 30 will feel like the very start of your career when you think back at 60 or 70.
1. Reflect on what you actually have enjoyed out of the job, if anything. What have been any bright spots? If there's nothing at the job, what outside of work motivates you to do more of it? 2. What jobs have more of those things you like? These aren't always huge, deep things. Like writing? Take a look at marketing, journalism, technical sales support, etc. Like working with customers? Look at sales, customer support, etc. 3. As other people have said, look to see if it's really the whole industry, or just the current situation you're in. I've found a lot of differences in culture/people/day-to-day work just by moving teams, let alone companies. Talk to friends and see if things are different for them at other companies. Talk to friends in different jobs completely. See what resonates with you.
Hope that helps and again, don't worry about age! Pivoting at 30 will feel like the very start of your career when you think back at 60 or 70.
I'm not sure if this will help, but there are a lot of ex software developers who move into different roles at software companies. Support, Customer Success, PreSales, PostSales, People Management, Project and Program Management, Technical Marketing, Marketing, Sales, etc.
Even people who enjoy coding don't necessarily want to do it as a job, and they find themselves happier in roles where their software skills are a bonus to whatever they do for their job.
I think an an easy analogy is being a doctor. Just because you went to medical school and enjoy helping people feel better, doesn't mean you enjoy the day-to-day of being a doctor. Lots of people would say a doctor is crazy for not being a practitioner anymore because becoming a doctor means having a well paid and highly coveted job in lots of places. But people do give up practicing as a doctor and do other things.
There's a pretty big world outside of software development. If you don't want to do it, then don't do it.
Even people who enjoy coding don't necessarily want to do it as a job, and they find themselves happier in roles where their software skills are a bonus to whatever they do for their job.
I think an an easy analogy is being a doctor. Just because you went to medical school and enjoy helping people feel better, doesn't mean you enjoy the day-to-day of being a doctor. Lots of people would say a doctor is crazy for not being a practitioner anymore because becoming a doctor means having a well paid and highly coveted job in lots of places. But people do give up practicing as a doctor and do other things.
There's a pretty big world outside of software development. If you don't want to do it, then don't do it.
I went to my daughter's graduation from Kent State yesterday- there was a woman who just got her Bachelor's degree, and she was at least 60. She was lit up.
"Well into your 30s" isn't particularly old, and definitely not compared to how long you're probably going to live. If going back to school will help you to be happy, then do it.
"Well into your 30s" isn't particularly old, and definitely not compared to how long you're probably going to live. If going back to school will help you to be happy, then do it.
People have variable experience in this business.
In the same town you might find two people doing similar work and getting paid differently by a factor of 1.5 if not 2.
I've worked at places that vary dramatically in how toxic they are from
In the same town you might find two people doing similar work and getting paid differently by a factor of 1.5 if not 2.
I've worked at places that vary dramatically in how toxic they are from
* I left in a huff and 6 months later they called and said they hadn't hired a replacement
and wanted advice, I told them that there was no possibility of retaining people
if they didn't fire my old boss. They fired my old boss
* People who are really nice
There is no such thing as “the software industry culture”. Every company is different. And your experience within a company can also vary greatly depending on your boss and team. Working with people (and a boss) you respect makes all the difference. Independently of what you are working on.
You can join the 95% of people who, like you, look at the software industry and think “that’s not for me.” Most of us are in fact quite happy and sane, and can even make good money doing what we love.
>do something I hate 8+ hours a day, I would at least to prefer to be making enough money to distract me from it.
This is a fallacy. If you hate it, you will still hate it no matter how much you make. The motivation gained by the larger salary will wear off in about a month or two.
This is a fallacy. If you hate it, you will still hate it no matter how much you make. The motivation gained by the larger salary will wear off in about a month or two.
I've been in this situation and have seen it as a fair trade - I was hating the job with passion, but was compensated with unreasonable amounts of money for it. The reward seemed proportional and appropriate for the effort. Whereas if they cut my salary by even 30%, I'd quit on the spot.
Yeah but when the choices are do something you hate for a moderate amount of money or do something you hate for a ton of money, the second option is at least marginally better. Hell at some of those salaries you could probably even retire early.
Here's my advice after 25+ yrs dev't. Certain things make a job nice or not. Specific workplace and colleagues make huge difference. Poorly paid, "boring" work can be fine with super nice colleagues. Trying to chase faddish constantly changing tech (e:g js frameworks), is stressful and draining. Gradually becoming a wizard in the likes of Linux, command-line , FOSS, can be very fulfilling, you're your own agent, not at the whims of a vendor, and opportunities exist in many different types of orgs including public sector. Alternatively, maybe you could try some time out, even if just to work in a hotel for ski season or suchlike? That can give perspective. Some things are better outside of S/W, but many things aren't. If you see the grass isn't entirely greener, maybe you'll become content on returning. (I've done this). For learning, there's many free resources, college not necessary IMHO. One trick is pick a tech you really want to get into, play with it a bit then apply for underpaid jobs in that field. ;) Then after a while you can job hop if the pay doesn't increase cos by then you'd have experience. Working with a crowd that isn't all young, instead having a few older more chilled out less-to-prove colleagues can help :) Sometimes working in the least fashionable part of a company can have the most chilled people. For example QA. (well in my experience that was true)
Why not take up some trade? Electrician, carpenter, mechanic, etc?
These days, the tradesmen are the invisible millionaires. In the time it takes to get another degree you would be fully qualified and on the way to being an independent contractor.
These days, the tradesmen are the invisible millionaires. In the time it takes to get another degree you would be fully qualified and on the way to being an independent contractor.
Can you be specific about what aspects of the work, people, and culture you hate?
I've been in the industry for 20 years and certainly, I feel developers have lost autonomy and things are much more more costly and slower to build than before.
Ironically, pay has gone up.
I don't do much coding now, but I would hate doing it because of lack of autonomy, unnecessary complexity, and culture of well intended, but over-collaborating.
I've been in the industry for 20 years and certainly, I feel developers have lost autonomy and things are much more more costly and slower to build than before.
Ironically, pay has gone up.
I don't do much coding now, but I would hate doing it because of lack of autonomy, unnecessary complexity, and culture of well intended, but over-collaborating.
pay has gone up because expenses have gone up. if you had your life sorted since 20 years ago you obviously wouldn't notice
> or if I wouldn’t be well into my 30s by the time I finished
This shouldn’t be a factor in my opinion.
In fact, consider 40 year old you - they would appreciate that 30’s you set you on a new track.
This shouldn’t be a factor in my opinion.
In fact, consider 40 year old you - they would appreciate that 30’s you set you on a new track.
I endorse what megameter and tvieweg both said.
I'll add that you are not even middle-aged, and people do all kinds of crazy things even after they are middle-aged. They move to Mexico and run surfboard shops. They go to Antarctica and drive trucks around a frozen camp. You can start a new career! "Well into your 30s" isn't all that old, speaking as someone who definitely is.
If you could find the resources, and at the risk of sounding cliche, it may be worth talking to someone. It can really help to have a trained therapist in your corner. You're facing real challenges, and you sound like you're also feeling a lot of despair and trapped feelings. Processing those feelings well is perhaps the most important part of navigating your sticky situation.
I'll add that you are not even middle-aged, and people do all kinds of crazy things even after they are middle-aged. They move to Mexico and run surfboard shops. They go to Antarctica and drive trucks around a frozen camp. You can start a new career! "Well into your 30s" isn't all that old, speaking as someone who definitely is.
If you could find the resources, and at the risk of sounding cliche, it may be worth talking to someone. It can really help to have a trained therapist in your corner. You're facing real challenges, and you sound like you're also feeling a lot of despair and trapped feelings. Processing those feelings well is perhaps the most important part of navigating your sticky situation.
I feel pretty much the same (except I like most people at my company).
This part really resonates.
"if I’m going to have to do something I hate 8+ hours a day, I would at least to prefer to be making enough money to distract me from it. I’m not anywhere near there at the moment."
This part really resonates.
"if I’m going to have to do something I hate 8+ hours a day, I would at least to prefer to be making enough money to distract me from it. I’m not anywhere near there at the moment."
No you're not crazy. I got burnt out and left the industry.
90% of the developers I know want to quit and start some sort of restaurant. [0]
There is a mythical imagery about working with food, setting your own shop, owning your hours. Clearly diametrically opposed to the 9-to-5 grid, the open-space and the weekly 1:1s with a manager.
Similar to that, there is also a recurrent opposition of urban-life vs. rural-life; painting the countryside as more fulfilling.
It appears to me that you're dissatisfied and disillusioned with the grind, (and so am I). But, I honestly don't think that a drastic change of scenery will magically make things better.
For me, the eye-opening moment was when I realized its not the "software-development industry" that I have issues with, it was the entire modern capitalistic "grind".
I don't have solutions for you, but I think a starting point is to realize that your problems are not individual, but collective and your experience is shared. However, I can suggest reading "The Coming Insurrection" by The Invisible Committee.
[0] Biased sample, and maybe slightly exaggerated number.
There is a mythical imagery about working with food, setting your own shop, owning your hours. Clearly diametrically opposed to the 9-to-5 grid, the open-space and the weekly 1:1s with a manager.
Similar to that, there is also a recurrent opposition of urban-life vs. rural-life; painting the countryside as more fulfilling.
It appears to me that you're dissatisfied and disillusioned with the grind, (and so am I). But, I honestly don't think that a drastic change of scenery will magically make things better.
For me, the eye-opening moment was when I realized its not the "software-development industry" that I have issues with, it was the entire modern capitalistic "grind".
I don't have solutions for you, but I think a starting point is to realize that your problems are not individual, but collective and your experience is shared. However, I can suggest reading "The Coming Insurrection" by The Invisible Committee.
[0] Biased sample, and maybe slightly exaggerated number.
After reading Bourdain, Kitchen Confidential (and before), there's no way I'd like to do this working 20 hours a day and little chance of making a profit...only dedicated passionate workaholics really succeed in catering whereas all sorts of people can succeed in software!
A friend of mine bought a cafe once, it's a common trope that people want to start these kinds of businesses, and it almost always ends in tears both financially and emotionally.
I don't recommend it, unless you are a hugely passionate chef and willing to put in big hours at big risk.
I don't recommend it, unless you are a hugely passionate chef and willing to put in big hours at big risk.
Stop doing it then and do something else. Anything else. Travel worked for me.
> or if I wouldn’t be well into my 30s by the time I finished
I did my MBA in my 40's. There is no big red line that says "you cannot change the course of your life past this point". I know people who have changed their entire lives in their 40's. They tend to be interesting people :)
> Even then it’s unheard to go from software to anything I’d be interested in
I promise you it's not. I worked as a warehouse picker in my early 20's, met a guy there in his mid-30's who had quit the software industry (IBM burned him out apparently). He was happily working at a no-brain job while he sorted his life out post-burnout. I don't know where he ended up, but it could have been anywhere, doing anything.
I'll bet half the problem is that you're comparing yourself to others. The people who have their shit all together and are ticking off career goals and life stages in a neat, orderly fashion. Doing it as you're "supposed" to do it.
Just wait. Half those people will be utter wrecks by 45. A lot of them are basically lying to themselves and everyone around them, scared of being who they actually are and trying to be what is expected of them. When that unravels it happens fast and hard. You don't want that. You're already ahead of them by questioning everything, especially yourself.
You have lots of time. Don't waste it doing something you hate. Go get some different experiences and see what does work for you.
> or if I wouldn’t be well into my 30s by the time I finished
I did my MBA in my 40's. There is no big red line that says "you cannot change the course of your life past this point". I know people who have changed their entire lives in their 40's. They tend to be interesting people :)
> Even then it’s unheard to go from software to anything I’d be interested in
I promise you it's not. I worked as a warehouse picker in my early 20's, met a guy there in his mid-30's who had quit the software industry (IBM burned him out apparently). He was happily working at a no-brain job while he sorted his life out post-burnout. I don't know where he ended up, but it could have been anywhere, doing anything.
I'll bet half the problem is that you're comparing yourself to others. The people who have their shit all together and are ticking off career goals and life stages in a neat, orderly fashion. Doing it as you're "supposed" to do it.
Just wait. Half those people will be utter wrecks by 45. A lot of them are basically lying to themselves and everyone around them, scared of being who they actually are and trying to be what is expected of them. When that unravels it happens fast and hard. You don't want that. You're already ahead of them by questioning everything, especially yourself.
You have lots of time. Don't waste it doing something you hate. Go get some different experiences and see what does work for you.
I would suggest maybe trying a different area of software development that is not primarily build crud apps.
You could also try different areas technical writing, teaching etc
You could also try different areas technical writing, teaching etc
> I would suggest maybe trying a different area of software development that is not primarily build crud apps.
Been trying to find one of these that doesn’t require me to be an established domain expert or have expensive higher education.
Been trying to find one of these that doesn’t require me to be an established domain expert or have expensive higher education.
Hang in there. Get some friends to bitch about the work after work.
You can do it in this thread.
You can do it in this thread.
> if I wouldn’t be well into my 30s by the time I finished,
Just my opinion, I was on a career track I didnt like in my late 20s, went back to school, then a comparatively junior job, and was "well into my 30s", like 38, by the time things stabilized. When you're that age, it won't feel that old, unless maybe you spend another decade doing something you hate
Just my opinion, I was on a career track I didnt like in my late 20s, went back to school, then a comparatively junior job, and was "well into my 30s", like 38, by the time things stabilized. When you're that age, it won't feel that old, unless maybe you spend another decade doing something you hate
I recommend "Developer Hegemony: The Future of Labor" by Erik Dietrich. It put into words a lot of what I was feeling but couldn't articulate. Hopefully that will do the same for you. If you understand what you're feeling, you'll know how to handle it going forward.
I can sympathize to some degree, but I certainly don't hate it. I like programming/software, I like people, I like solving problems. Most industries that make huge amounts of money generally have their issues. I take advantage of the money to do stuff I enjoy in my spare time, when I was your age I travelled a lot for several months (very cheaply). I learnt new things and did different sports etc.
If I could go back in time I might be a teacher or hospital worker, but actually if I'd done that I would have missed out on a lot of cool stuff. If you're earning a lot as you suggest you should easily be able to earn enough to take some reasonable time off and still be employable when you return which is one of the big benefits of software engineering.
If I could go back in time I might be a teacher or hospital worker, but actually if I'd done that I would have missed out on a lot of cool stuff. If you're earning a lot as you suggest you should easily be able to earn enough to take some reasonable time off and still be employable when you return which is one of the big benefits of software engineering.
One problem with software, is the value you bring to society. Software being everywhere, it's often difficult to see if your work makes a difference or if it makes sense.
Software is often short lived and thrown away after some time, and it often justifies buying hardware.
In my view, software is unregulated in both quality and security, which makes programming quite messy.
I'm generally against the writing of software unless there is no other way. I would rather have people learn scripting and use normal tools like email etc rather than hear them "we should create an app to share information".
Software is often short lived and thrown away after some time, and it often justifies buying hardware.
In my view, software is unregulated in both quality and security, which makes programming quite messy.
I'm generally against the writing of software unless there is no other way. I would rather have people learn scripting and use normal tools like email etc rather than hear them "we should create an app to share information".
Make software that can shoot a laser at starlings and/or mosquitos.
Funny enough, the other day after having an encounter with a flying cockroach I wondered about using lasers to kill those. I imagined just finding a decent power rating laser diode a consumer can buy, driving it to the max and seeing what it could do.
Unfortunately it seems that any beam focused/powerful enough will end up damaging anything else it hit (in my case: walls, ceiling, carpet, etc.)
Unfortunately it seems that any beam focused/powerful enough will end up damaging anything else it hit (in my case: walls, ceiling, carpet, etc.)
yea, I thought about doing one that was a bird feeder, and it would be safe to shoot the laser at.. maybe a backdrop that absorbs the beam and heat. The point is to stop the starlings from stealing all the seed from the other birds. There are squirrel guards, but not starling guards. Might not even kill them, just heat them off.
You could make a safe backdrop and then auto detect what bugs walked on it, and only shoot the bad ones.
There are paint colors that absorb light and then it would probably need to be metal or something so it would absorb heat. It would only be active when it was shooting a bug.. so the bug would probably absorb most of it.
Sounds like it woudl need to be pretty enclosed, since even the refraction could blind people. Maybe a robot arm that swats them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMVWW-bmKwQ
One of those salt guns? Those take out bugs pretty good. Like a sentry bug zapper.
You could make a safe backdrop and then auto detect what bugs walked on it, and only shoot the bad ones.
There are paint colors that absorb light and then it would probably need to be metal or something so it would absorb heat. It would only be active when it was shooting a bug.. so the bug would probably absorb most of it.
Sounds like it woudl need to be pretty enclosed, since even the refraction could blind people. Maybe a robot arm that swats them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMVWW-bmKwQ
One of those salt guns? Those take out bugs pretty good. Like a sentry bug zapper.
The people down voting this post are the people he talks about hating. There is nothing not to love about killing invasive species. Thank you for proving my point.
Africanized (AKA killer) bees would be a good target as well.
[deleted]
In your last sentence you mentioned that it's unheard of to go from software to anything you'd be interested in.
What are you interested in?
What are you interested in?
I think you want to find a public sector gig.
Sometimes it is just a bad day, not bad life. Maybe no need for "heaven and earth" decision, huh?
Put effort into something that interests you.
I feel your pain. I maintain my part time military job so that when I am sucked into a deployment I can be around more normal people from a variety of other professions and recover a bit of sanity.
As a JavaScript developer here are the things I most encounter:
1. Invented Here Syndrome. Nothing is more despised or feared than writing original code. Code written by a coworker isn’t trusted but code downloaded from the internet isn’t questioned and so everything becomes an untested dependency. The ability to write original code is somehow seen as an amazing marvel with an astonishing curiosity and simultaneously feared as an unknown demon.
2. Automation is not trusted. I find this surprisingly odd because for me the very purpose of software is automation, so automate all aspects of your job as well. Many developers like to do a lot of manual things they don’t realize they are doing which can be easily automated. Challenging those behaviors is like challenging OCD insanity of somebody who isn’t aware they are OCD. You would think test automation would solve for some of this, but there is so much manual effort curating things the user never sees while so much end to end testing is ignored because that requires a higher level of effort. Despite all of this external tools seem to always be trusted and if they can provide metrics or configurations to suck up more of your time they are valued for their automation.
3. Writing is frequently a lost and not valued skill. In the past at previous employers if I wanted any sort of clarity on technical or business requirements I completely ignore other developers and go straight to QA, because QA people are experts on communicating with specificity. Developers, on the other hand, are frequently incapable of writing anything down and expect everything to be a circular conversation that sucks up your time and theirs. The busier the developer is the worse this paradoxically becomes.
4. Everything must be a tool or a search. I often feel there is a lot of insecurity in writing software. I get the feeling as junior developers many people never form a proper mental model for how to write code and then spend the rest of their careers as expert beginners cornered with how other people should write code. It seems this often comes down to ignoring thinking about logic if a tool can do it for you and ignoring data structures if you can just run a search. I imagine it must be like becoming a lawyer and everything there after is a plea bargain to avoid reading law or forming an argument.
5. There is no formal training in the corporate world or required continuing education and so developers are expected to train themselves. This is problematic only because it is both somehow expected and simultaneously ignored. The only place I have interviewed at, seriously the only one, that figured this out is a design agency. They were more interested in my personal training/education than my day to day responsibilities at prior employers because they wanted to know about my capabilities.
6. Everybody in software seems to believe they are some level of a security expert. Whenever I see security and software combined into a single context I immediately think Dunning-Kruger. The security industry has remedies for such stupidity that software ignores (often deliberately). If you point this out the result is hostility, about what you might expect from pointing out over confidence. I have always found that fascinating since there is so much missing confidence in just writing any code.
If it weren’t for the pay and the massive free time to just stare lost into space I would given up on software long ago.
As a JavaScript developer here are the things I most encounter:
1. Invented Here Syndrome. Nothing is more despised or feared than writing original code. Code written by a coworker isn’t trusted but code downloaded from the internet isn’t questioned and so everything becomes an untested dependency. The ability to write original code is somehow seen as an amazing marvel with an astonishing curiosity and simultaneously feared as an unknown demon.
2. Automation is not trusted. I find this surprisingly odd because for me the very purpose of software is automation, so automate all aspects of your job as well. Many developers like to do a lot of manual things they don’t realize they are doing which can be easily automated. Challenging those behaviors is like challenging OCD insanity of somebody who isn’t aware they are OCD. You would think test automation would solve for some of this, but there is so much manual effort curating things the user never sees while so much end to end testing is ignored because that requires a higher level of effort. Despite all of this external tools seem to always be trusted and if they can provide metrics or configurations to suck up more of your time they are valued for their automation.
3. Writing is frequently a lost and not valued skill. In the past at previous employers if I wanted any sort of clarity on technical or business requirements I completely ignore other developers and go straight to QA, because QA people are experts on communicating with specificity. Developers, on the other hand, are frequently incapable of writing anything down and expect everything to be a circular conversation that sucks up your time and theirs. The busier the developer is the worse this paradoxically becomes.
4. Everything must be a tool or a search. I often feel there is a lot of insecurity in writing software. I get the feeling as junior developers many people never form a proper mental model for how to write code and then spend the rest of their careers as expert beginners cornered with how other people should write code. It seems this often comes down to ignoring thinking about logic if a tool can do it for you and ignoring data structures if you can just run a search. I imagine it must be like becoming a lawyer and everything there after is a plea bargain to avoid reading law or forming an argument.
5. There is no formal training in the corporate world or required continuing education and so developers are expected to train themselves. This is problematic only because it is both somehow expected and simultaneously ignored. The only place I have interviewed at, seriously the only one, that figured this out is a design agency. They were more interested in my personal training/education than my day to day responsibilities at prior employers because they wanted to know about my capabilities.
6. Everybody in software seems to believe they are some level of a security expert. Whenever I see security and software combined into a single context I immediately think Dunning-Kruger. The security industry has remedies for such stupidity that software ignores (often deliberately). If you point this out the result is hostility, about what you might expect from pointing out over confidence. I have always found that fascinating since there is so much missing confidence in just writing any code.
If it weren’t for the pay and the massive free time to just stare lost into space I would given up on software long ago.
what do you want to do?
> I hate the work,
I guess this is a personal / personality / enjoyment match. Become a teacher, work for a nonprofit, or help government improve.
https://www.codeforamerica.org
> hate the people
TBH, I hate arrogant, know-it-all--know-nothing, filter-bubble screen addicts, narcissistic, spineless, socially-transactional "networking" and "hooking-up," smarmy or boring, psychopathic, self-promoting, other-sabotaging, horrid yuppies who tend to grow out of corporations like weeds. Cool people or GTFO.
> the culture
I'm curious. What is it that you hate? Is it a belief system, attitude, or way of doing things?
> etc.
What does this comprise?
> But I can’t afford it: not the monetary cost, not the time cost. If I could magically pull tens of thousands of dollars out of my ass tomorrow maybe,
I would cut back on discretionary expenses and prioritize education/career development.
> or if I wouldn’t be well into my 30s by the time I finished, it would be a different situation.
Might be some covert age shame / ageism going on. You know your life isn't over until you actually die, right? There are people in their 60's, 70's, and 80's who finish college degrees.
> Even then it’s unheard to go from software to anything I’d be interested in.
Why? You can do whatever you want. DLR became an EMT for a while (might've been a stunt, but who knows or cares?).
I guess this is a personal / personality / enjoyment match. Become a teacher, work for a nonprofit, or help government improve.
https://www.codeforamerica.org
> hate the people
TBH, I hate arrogant, know-it-all--know-nothing, filter-bubble screen addicts, narcissistic, spineless, socially-transactional "networking" and "hooking-up," smarmy or boring, psychopathic, self-promoting, other-sabotaging, horrid yuppies who tend to grow out of corporations like weeds. Cool people or GTFO.
> the culture
I'm curious. What is it that you hate? Is it a belief system, attitude, or way of doing things?
> etc.
What does this comprise?
> But I can’t afford it: not the monetary cost, not the time cost. If I could magically pull tens of thousands of dollars out of my ass tomorrow maybe,
I would cut back on discretionary expenses and prioritize education/career development.
> or if I wouldn’t be well into my 30s by the time I finished, it would be a different situation.
Might be some covert age shame / ageism going on. You know your life isn't over until you actually die, right? There are people in their 60's, 70's, and 80's who finish college degrees.
> Even then it’s unheard to go from software to anything I’d be interested in.
Why? You can do whatever you want. DLR became an EMT for a while (might've been a stunt, but who knows or cares?).
Culture varies a lot. Region matters.
San Francisco types are different then mid size city companies. New York companies are their own thing.
On top of common things like a company that loves to blame vs one that doesn’t.
It’s important to either find a match or at least not offended by others.
San Francisco types are different then mid size city companies. New York companies are their own thing.
On top of common things like a company that loves to blame vs one that doesn’t.
It’s important to either find a match or at least not offended by others.
I’m curious... what would you say is the difference between San Francisco’s and NY’s cultures?...
SF is more accepting of alternative lifestyle and personal choices (not just LGBT+).
NY is more direct, and in a sense, more seemingly trustworthy. SF, you often get vague, awkward, meandering intimations rather than honesty.
In SF, most people are either extremely boring, unreasonable, or have repulsive attitudes. (In NY and SF, they're often Seinfeldian.)
In SF, unless a guy is a model, he should go MGTOW because they'd just be wasting their time with swiping apps that only focus on looks (80% of men are ugly according to women), pedigree, and fruitless clamoring for attention.
SF and NY both have art, but NY has Broadway and book publishing.
NY is more direct, and in a sense, more seemingly trustworthy. SF, you often get vague, awkward, meandering intimations rather than honesty.
In SF, most people are either extremely boring, unreasonable, or have repulsive attitudes. (In NY and SF, they're often Seinfeldian.)
In SF, unless a guy is a model, he should go MGTOW because they'd just be wasting their time with swiping apps that only focus on looks (80% of men are ugly according to women), pedigree, and fruitless clamoring for attention.
SF and NY both have art, but NY has Broadway and book publishing.
New York has more women than men. San Francisco has more men than women. Probably because San Francisco is nerdier and techier while New York is more business.
Personal experience.
NY tends to have more a-holes.
More prone to micro managing.
Trash taking various demographics is becoming culturally acceptable.
I think a lot of big cities have aholes. See how many BMW-driving yuppies there are in Palo Alto who try to cut you off and get mad when you don't reward their superior, entitled existence.
> Trash taking various demographics
Hasn't that always been a low-class thing?
When/where/what classes of people did it ever go away?
I've seen it done ironically in the UK amongst good friends and coworkers who are definitely not racist.
> Trash taking various demographics
Hasn't that always been a low-class thing?
When/where/what classes of people did it ever go away?
I've seen it done ironically in the UK amongst good friends and coworkers who are definitely not racist.
I am too poor to do anything else in my country.
To earn as much as i do in Software industry, I need to be either a politician or a corrupt contractor or straight up looting banks.
Money is not a huge concern to me, but if I’m going to have to do something I hate 8+ hours a day, I would at least to prefer to be making enough money to distract me from it. I’m not anywhere near there at the moment. I’ve considered maybe just doing the leetcode circus and trying to land mind numbing FAANG job so I can at least have the luxury of otherwise unheard of money. But it’s not ideal and I’m not sure I’d be cut out for it. I’ve never been a particularly good software developer compared to many of the people I’ve interacted with.
I’d gladly accept less money (within reason) to work on something that excites me, but that’s about the least likely scenario, between the narrow and poorly definable category of what I would find enticing and the basically impossible to obtain requirements on the fee jobs I do see.
I’ve considered going back to school, to try something else, and was actually very close, in fact I nearly registered for classes. But I can’t afford it: not the monetary cost, not the time cost. If I could magically pull tens of thousands of dollars out of my ass tomorrow maybe, or if I wouldn’t be well into my 30s by the time I finished, it would be a different situation. Even then it’s unheard to go from software to anything I’d be interested in.