Last remaining 1000+ user community channel seized by Freenode staff(linux.chat)
linux.chat
Last remaining 1000+ user community channel seized by Freenode staff
https://linux.chat/linux-on-freenode/
202 comments
Services like this have a very large network effect. As the informed users leave, the quality of discussion drops and the remainder of users end up leaving too.
So what’s odd to me is how high freenode’s numbers still are. That’s a lot of people. If all the major FOSS projects have moved on, and with all the bad press, how is it there are still so many people on it? What channels are they on?
Is their death greatly exaggerated?
Is their death greatly exaggerated?
If you look at the amount of actual chat, it's already far below Libera.
What this means is that probably most of the users left are either bouncers or lurkers that just haven't disconnected yet. However, this is speculation on my part.
What this means is that probably most of the users left are either bouncers or lurkers that just haven't disconnected yet. However, this is speculation on my part.
And people might not have turned off their autojoins. It's not like lurking in a different server takes any effort.
It's probably this. I haven't completely migrated my bouncer, either.
I suspect a lot of the remaining users are on both networks.
So how long until Freenode starts faking user numbers to look better?
Meanwhile on the freenode.net front page:
> The future for freenode and FOSS communications, indeed, looks bright and exciting. Stay tuned for many great things to come!
> The future for freenode and FOSS communications, indeed, looks bright and exciting. Stay tuned for many great things to come!
I don't disagree with your point or your numbers, but the first chart can be misleading because the y axis doesn't start at 0.
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That low? IRC is truly dead
But then again everyone is on Discord now so no surprise
But then again everyone is on Discord now so no surprise
Low probably means higher quality engagement to be honest. Not that I use it but the trend I see is smaller things like this have higher quality conversation and interaction with some direct access to people you wouldn’t normally be able to talk to otherwise. Seems like a feature to me if you do it right and aren’t chasing the VC fly wheel.
As a flourishing community of the interwebs maybe, just maybe.
IRC as a tool is certainly not dead.
Former IRCOP.
IRC as a tool is certainly not dead.
Former IRCOP.
How does IRC work on mobile these days?
Last time I used IRC seriously, I had to get off the train because I was chatting more on mobile than not and the mobile clients were basically un-serviceable (IIRC, protocol is too chatty and stateful for reliable connection on a device continuously changing its physical network connection).
Last time I used IRC seriously, I had to get off the train because I was chatting more on mobile than not and the mobile clients were basically un-serviceable (IIRC, protocol is too chatty and stateful for reliable connection on a device continuously changing its physical network connection).
As it always was, the best way to use IRC is sadly to sign up for a third party shell account and run a bnc or an irssi+tmux session or similar.
It's little wonder to me that IRC's lunch got eaten; the UX on mobile is just awful.
It's little wonder to me that IRC's lunch got eaten; the UX on mobile is just awful.
I always used a client called quassel that had an always on server you hosted somewhere. Then you had mobile and desktop apps that you used to connect to it. Because the server portion was always connected you did not miss stuff even when your client was disconnected.
Quassel so far has been working really well on Android connected to my Quassel Core docker container on a vps.
I find The Lounge to be fine for me on desktop and mobile. Also you can leave it connected, potentially eliminating the need for a bouncer.
https://thelounge.chat/
https://thelounge.chat/
Irccloud is a popular and easy to use client with a good mobile interface.
I use weechat, with the glowing-bear frontend on both desktop and mobile.
In both cases, the mobile interface is a frontend for something else instead of being an actual irc client.
I use weechat, with the glowing-bear frontend on both desktop and mobile.
In both cases, the mobile interface is a frontend for something else instead of being an actual irc client.
I run a web based bouncer on my cluster and VPN into its interface on mobile devices.
No idea, but Libera's Matrix bridge seems to work really well.
Like in past days. If you have a working OS (ie not iOS) you can use it fine. Otherwise use Lounge or something similar.
I was using Android and the experience was not good. Disconnects every time I put my phone in my pocket.
You need to disable power savings.
IRC is not dead but I was also surprised by those numbers. Random Discord servers for niched things have more users than those combined and the big ones have hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of users.
OTOH: IRC only counts users who are currently online. Discord counts every user who has clicked an invite link and "joined" the server, regardless of whether they are active.
You're right but it all depends on what number you choose to expose (the games I've played that show Discord member count in-game usually show online count). As an example of a niche server I just saw one that is only about trading stuff in Animal Crossing: New Horizons but it still had 100k online with 500k in total.
Any idea of user count on other networks? Is IRCnet still the largest? Are EFnet and QuakeNet still alive?
Edit: the IRC Wikipedia page has numbers from a couple of years ago. IRCnet is twice the size of EFnet and QuakeNet, freenode was three times the size of IRCnet.
Edit: the IRC Wikipedia page has numbers from a couple of years ago. IRCnet is twice the size of EFnet and QuakeNet, freenode was three times the size of IRCnet.
You may find this resource useful for current values: https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php?year=2021
You can't even bookmark or favorite channels on discord. On discord, instead of joining channels, you join server (which aren't really servers BTW) with all their sub-channels, it is utterly impractical to use.
And you have to use Discord's client, which looks the same in the browser and on the desktop. Among other things you simply cannot watch multiple channels at the same time, even on the same server. You have to switch back and forth between them, and in my experience you give up and stay in one or the other. If they're on different servers, it's even more of a pain.
This is the biggest pain for me with discord. Third party clients have tabs for specific channels u can use but it's still not as easy to monitor multiple places like it is in irc. And also it's against TOS
Completely false.
#postgresql IRC has by far the most insanely helpful and in depth discussions of even the most trickiest of issues.
#postgresql IRC has by far the most insanely helpful and in depth discussions of even the most trickiest of issues.
Wow, they really think they own the communities just because people chose to use them for IRC? How fucking entitled and arrogant. I don't even use it, but death to Freenode. Obviously somebody thought they found a gold mine, but in their tunnel vision is so focused on "owning" something that they never owned, that they're willing to burn the whole place down to keep "owning" it.
is it really any different than say.. Discord?
or a subreddit?
it always stuck me as amazing in how much autonomy IRC channels tend to have on various servers, especially as the internet has changed in the past 20 years.
Between mobs wanting "accountability" for speech they don't like, the increases in liability, the MSM targeting any platform that has any free speech or autonomy to it (be it Substack, podcasts, E2EE messaging, etc.) or just blatant cash grabs by trying to control and bank off something fairly open... i thought IRC - in its near entirety - would have gone this direction a long time ago.
or a subreddit?
it always stuck me as amazing in how much autonomy IRC channels tend to have on various servers, especially as the internet has changed in the past 20 years.
Between mobs wanting "accountability" for speech they don't like, the increases in liability, the MSM targeting any platform that has any free speech or autonomy to it (be it Substack, podcasts, E2EE messaging, etc.) or just blatant cash grabs by trying to control and bank off something fairly open... i thought IRC - in its near entirety - would have gone this direction a long time ago.
No, it’s not different, but there is a difference in expectations.
If anything, Discord and Reddit are the ones that have it backwards. Their servers are theirs, and their free speech interest are theirs, but while you can own the premises and prioritize your own interests on your premises, that doesn’t grant you ownership over the communities you host.
Communities are made up of people, so claiming to own a community isn’t any different than claiming to own people. People can just pick up and move elsewhere, even if that means losing the benefits and privileges of the prior host.
If anything, Discord and Reddit are the ones that have it backwards. Their servers are theirs, and their free speech interest are theirs, but while you can own the premises and prioritize your own interests on your premises, that doesn’t grant you ownership over the communities you host.
Communities are made up of people, so claiming to own a community isn’t any different than claiming to own people. People can just pick up and move elsewhere, even if that means losing the benefits and privileges of the prior host.
There's different expectations for IRC vs most other social/chat platforms because of the structure and history. IRC has traditionally been run as a non-commercial community project so admins and server ops haven't had the same incentives for commercial palatability and IRC being older and a bit more obtuse to get into meant it didn't get the same attention in the cases where it's users do get into trouble. On top of that given it's a protocol instead of a single company there's a bit of separation where each server doesn't put pressure on all the others.
It probably would have had people continued using it in big numbers. It also helps that any major disagreement is resolved with "ok now there's 2 networks"
> Between mobs wanting "accountability" for speech they don't like
Seriously? Server and especially channel admins using their privileges to moderate the contents on their network is a decades old concept - with the debates on power abuse and the limits of "free speech" being as old.
If one thing, today's Twitter "mobs" are way more transparent than ye olde IRC fights, given that you'll have detailed explanations of the outrage under the respective hashtags.
Seriously? Server and especially channel admins using their privileges to moderate the contents on their network is a decades old concept - with the debates on power abuse and the limits of "free speech" being as old.
If one thing, today's Twitter "mobs" are way more transparent than ye olde IRC fights, given that you'll have detailed explanations of the outrage under the respective hashtags.
the classic reddit debate, are Moderators Janitors or leaders...
I have always said they should be viewed as content janitors but many many many (most) moderators disagree and take the limited power they have way to seriously
I have always said they should be viewed as content janitors but many many many (most) moderators disagree and take the limited power they have way to seriously
Which makes them that much more apoplectic when Reddit walks in and takes their communities/powers away with no recourse.
I wonder how much annual salary they lost when Reddit takes their subreddit away.
the term "moderator" clearly suggests that they are there to moderate the conversation. otherwise they would be called "leaders."
It’s different in that it’s not what you are signing up for.
capital requires owners - you might say .. the net uses resources constantly, while capital is overflowing.. so a "power" person follows the M$ft path and jumps in with both hands to assign ownership to anything and everything, locals be dammed.. seems almost predictable in a way
Why doesn't the new Freenode staff just shut down the IRC servers? That would be a lot less work than killing off each channel individually.
That's sort of my question. What's the end goal for Freenode? They're burning the network to the ground. Is there some positive outcome for them here that I'm missing?
Once they've burnt it to the ground, they'll have a blank slate. It looks like they're trying to make a job board for channers…? It might work; I'm confused enough to think I'm missing something. If others feel that same confusion, Lee's Freenode might be able to get some venture capital.
IRC is not exactly booming. Those who have fled during this exodus will probably not return. And trying to get people who don't already use IRC on board will be even more difficult.
They probably won't return. They're certainly not going to return to Freenode, though.
IRC doesn't need to boom. The communities matter; IRC is just a protocol.
IRC doesn't need to boom. The communities matter; IRC is just a protocol.
Ah yes, I meant return to Freenode. IRC need not be booming, but since it isn’t the "burn to the ground and rebuild" strategy will not work. As you said, communities is what matters and once they have moved they have little reason to return.
> job board for channers
I'd have thought real names and chan culture's extreme NSFWness would get on incredibly badly.
I'd have thought real names and chan culture's extreme NSFWness would get on incredibly badly.
Channers and leaving NEETdom the normal way? Yes. Channers hiring other channers? That’s called company culture. The customers in the latter scenario are either also channers who appreciate the toxicity or the company makes the software equivalent of ball bearings and does not have enough public presence for consumer boycotts to have any effect.
Well it's been burnt to the ground, they wiped services and started anew on a different IRCd. And I noticed that user's hostnames are hidden by default now. Things like "@freenode-tbu.1hs.4lttne.IP" & "freenode-0ji.04k.68srct.IP."
Making everyone more anonymous seems very chan-like.
Making everyone more anonymous seems very chan-like.
lee's a regular user here on HN, so anything he sees here that he thinks is "simple" enough to be copied to freenode, he does without much thought.
It seems like Schadenfreude or sour grapes.
Chat is a slightly more dynamic market than email for user acquisition, but it's still damn hard to get new users. Who but a bunch of rubes would use a previously nonprofit service that was publicly obliterated?
Or is the end goal a new, commercial brand strategy? No one in tech with any sense will use them.
Chat is a slightly more dynamic market than email for user acquisition, but it's still damn hard to get new users. Who but a bunch of rubes would use a previously nonprofit service that was publicly obliterated?
Or is the end goal a new, commercial brand strategy? No one in tech with any sense will use them.
My money's on ridiculous crypto exit scam
Either that or rasengan is setting everything on fire because he is a sore loser.
On a related note, he changed his nick to root. I'm pretty sure he did it because of the saying "root is god," which is true on *nix platforms. (The root user can do anything, including deleting the entire filesystem while the computer is running. It's powerful and meant to be used in moderation.)
Well...they're not shutting down the servers. Just wiping the registrations and starting anew: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27510192
I've only been 1/2 following along with this, I'm not sure I get it now. Freenode staff now has total control over every single change on Freenode? Won't that drive everyone (literally everyone) away? What's the Freenode staff's goal here? I'm not a Freenode user and have no interest in this at all, just wondering as a somewhat interested outsider.
You are correct. This will drive everyone away. Which is why we have graphs like this:
https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php
Freenode is dying and the staff are actively killing it.
https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php
Freenode is dying and the staff are actively killing it.
That’s an amazing drop in users!
Thanks for that link - I was on Undernet starting in 1995 and even though the charts only went back to 1998 it was interesting to see the popularity of different IRC networks wax and wane over the years.
Thanks for that link - I was on Undernet starting in 1995 and even though the charts only went back to 1998 it was interesting to see the popularity of different IRC networks wax and wane over the years.
More stats: https://isfreenodedeadyet.com
Doesn't make sense. If its dying why bother killing?
Because apparently it isn't dying fast enough.
I wonder the same as an outsider. If you drive away all your users what do you really have at the end? Maybe they thought they were a monopoly and could act with impunity, though that seems like a foolish assumption
It's clear from Lee's words and actions that that's exactly what he thought.
That, combined with a fragile ego and controlling personality, led very predictably to him reacting to people starting to talk about leaving by trying to tighten his grip on everything—and everything slipping through his fingers.
That, combined with a fragile ego and controlling personality, led very predictably to him reacting to people starting to talk about leaving by trying to tighten his grip on everything—and everything slipping through his fingers.
> That, combined with a fragile ego and controlling personality...
Oh, people barely know the half of it... and for those wondering just how bad it can get, peruse one of the court cases currently against him personally.
https://corrupt.tech/1708590130-ocr-compressed.pdf
Oh, people barely know the half of it... and for those wondering just how bad it can get, peruse one of the court cases currently against him personally.
https://corrupt.tech/1708590130-ocr-compressed.pdf
Holy shit. This is crazy if it's true.
> For example, he told-LTM employees that he wanted to hire a female candidate simply because he wanted to have sex with her. Similarly, Lee expressed his desire to set up a "modeling agency" in the Hollywood Hills that would actually be a front for illegal prostitution (i.e., the "models" would be paid escorts). To that end, Lee circulated a memo to male LTM executives advising them to make sure and wear condoms when having sex with the "models."
I really hope they have a copy of that memo. That alone would be damning.
> For example, he told-LTM employees that he wanted to hire a female candidate simply because he wanted to have sex with her. Similarly, Lee expressed his desire to set up a "modeling agency" in the Hollywood Hills that would actually be a front for illegal prostitution (i.e., the "models" would be paid escorts). To that end, Lee circulated a memo to male LTM executives advising them to make sure and wear condoms when having sex with the "models."
I really hope they have a copy of that memo. That alone would be damning.
It gets so much trashier shortly after that segment.
> Making matters worse, Lee also had an ongoing relationship with a mistress that he brought to company functions and the LTM offices, despite people knowing that he was married. Lee met his mistress through a company offering female companionship for money. Lee abandoned his wife and newborn child to spend time with this woman, and their relationship was toxic. His mistress was physically and verbally abusive towards Lee, erratic and unpredictable, and caused Lee to act over-emotionally.
> The two fought on a daily basis. And this happened in front of LTM employees, including Plaintiffs. For example, a few days after the February 2015 Meeting, Lee and his mistress had a violent altercation at a club in front of Park, Ken, James, and other LTM personnel. His mistress became infuriated and violent when Lee did not pay attention to her to attend to a conference call concerning LTM business. She punched Lee in the face, causing Lee to lose a tooth.
All that MtGOX money couldn't buy class.
> Making matters worse, Lee also had an ongoing relationship with a mistress that he brought to company functions and the LTM offices, despite people knowing that he was married. Lee met his mistress through a company offering female companionship for money. Lee abandoned his wife and newborn child to spend time with this woman, and their relationship was toxic. His mistress was physically and verbally abusive towards Lee, erratic and unpredictable, and caused Lee to act over-emotionally.
> The two fought on a daily basis. And this happened in front of LTM employees, including Plaintiffs. For example, a few days after the February 2015 Meeting, Lee and his mistress had a violent altercation at a club in front of Park, Ken, James, and other LTM personnel. His mistress became infuriated and violent when Lee did not pay attention to her to attend to a conference call concerning LTM business. She punched Lee in the face, causing Lee to lose a tooth.
All that MtGOX money couldn't buy class.
This is more entertaining than anything hollywood has put out in awhilw.
This reads like a day time soap, but it also sounds like many other stories. The fact that they referenced Uber's start up culture made me laugh.
> Plaintiffs noticed that Lee was a habitual user of marijuana and cocaine, and would frequently abuse drugs in the office in front of his employees.
WTF
WTF
Hah, I've been trying to be fairly circumspect in my descriptions throughout this, as all I knew about Lee was what I'd seen in the stories about Freenode—but yikes, that's pretty crazy. Makes what he's been doing here make perfect sense, though.
That is the beauty of Open Protocols it is easy to switch to a new service provider and why Companies like Google removed all Open protocols from their services once they had a large market share
Seriously, what's the matter with this guy? I thought he was just really naive but I can't see an explanation for doing something like this that isn't malicious.
> Seriously, what's the matter with this guy?
According to https://corrupt.tech/1708590130-ocr-compressed.pdf:
> During this time, however, Plaintiffs became concerned with Lee's mental wellbeing and his ability to lead LTM and PIA. Plaintiffs noticed that Lee was a habitual user of marijuana and cocaine, and would frequently abuse drugs in the office _in front of his employees. Lee often combined his drug use with alcohol and would act erratically.
> For example, he told-LTM employees that he wanted to hire a female candidate simply because he wanted to have sex with her. Similarly, Lee expressed his desire to set up a "modeling agency" in the Hollywood Hills that would actually be a front for illegal prostitution (i.e., the "models" would be paid escorts). To that end, Lee circulated a memo to male LTM executives advising them to make sure and wear condoms when having sex with the "models." Lee went so far as to state that he planned to move LTM's offices to the Hollywood Hills mansion once the "modeling agency" was set up
According to https://corrupt.tech/1708590130-ocr-compressed.pdf:
> During this time, however, Plaintiffs became concerned with Lee's mental wellbeing and his ability to lead LTM and PIA. Plaintiffs noticed that Lee was a habitual user of marijuana and cocaine, and would frequently abuse drugs in the office _in front of his employees. Lee often combined his drug use with alcohol and would act erratically.
> For example, he told-LTM employees that he wanted to hire a female candidate simply because he wanted to have sex with her. Similarly, Lee expressed his desire to set up a "modeling agency" in the Hollywood Hills that would actually be a front for illegal prostitution (i.e., the "models" would be paid escorts). To that end, Lee circulated a memo to male LTM executives advising them to make sure and wear condoms when having sex with the "models." Lee went so far as to state that he planned to move LTM's offices to the Hollywood Hills mansion once the "modeling agency" was set up
Cringe level 9000. What an idiot
The only thing I can think of is that freenode and libera are in it together, and they're creating drama to make people talk about IRC again. I joked on another thread that he is just being a wrestling heel at this point. It's either that or it's a purely emotional response with no rational plan.
Edit: if it is all a bit of performative art, then it's brilliant. I have logged into public IRC maybe 10 times in the last 15 years, and now I'm seriously considering going back.
Edit: if it is all a bit of performative art, then it's brilliant. I have logged into public IRC maybe 10 times in the last 15 years, and now I'm seriously considering going back.
Even if you include malicious explanations, I still struggle to see this leading to something that will benefit him.
He has a kink for public himulation.
he spends his time drinking and doing drugs, indulging in prostitutes, and splashing money around
For those downvoting, this is accurate according to his current lawsuit(s) against him. Certainly not exaggerated.
> For those downvoting, this is accurate according to his current lawsuit(s) against him
While the claims in the lawsuit may eventually be proven, the fact that something has been alleged in a lawsuit is not even remotely similar to substantive evidence that it is true.
While the claims in the lawsuit may eventually be proven, the fact that something has been alleged in a lawsuit is not even remotely similar to substantive evidence that it is true.
hence why I said "according to the current lawsuit(s) against him"...
That doesn't excuse the poor phrasing, even if it corrects for it.
surely it's evidence that someone thinks it is probably true, enough to put in a lawsuit without the judge throwing it out for wasting their time
...and stupid. Or, we should consider the very real possibility, mentally unwell.
My guess is that he really likes the name, feels it has brand recognition, and wants to pivot the domain to something else besides IRC.
That might explain why he's making all of these decisions to drive people away. Once the population gets low enough, then he can just pull the plug on the servers claiming that there aren't enough people online. No one will protest, and after 6 months the social network MyFreeNodeBook will launch.
That might explain why he's making all of these decisions to drive people away. Once the population gets low enough, then he can just pull the plug on the servers claiming that there aren't enough people online. No one will protest, and after 6 months the social network MyFreeNodeBook will launch.
Reminds me of that South Park episode where Cartman buys an amusement park to play in all for himself, realizes he needs to pay staff, slowly begins to bring people into the amusement park in order to pay for upkeep, and is afterwards hailed as an economic genius as though all his actions were planned.
he doesn't seem to care if people protest
> There was no warning, no consultation and the only shred of reasoning that could be found was in the canned message stating “this channel is in violation of Freenode policy”
Sounds straight out of an authoritarian regime's playbook.
Sounds straight out of an authoritarian regime's playbook.
"Mine! Mine! Mine! Mine! Mine! Mine! Mine! ..." - seagulls from Finding Nemo
The only explanation of what's going on that I can think of.
The only explanation of what's going on that I can think of.
Freenode is kind of like that nightclub that stopped being cool, stopped having good music and began watering down the drinks. Everyone's gone to the new place. Basically the same crew running it.
https://libera.chat for those who haven't been following.
The reasoning is quite simple: Lee wants to force everybody away from Freenode to Libera so that he has full control and power over an empty Freenode network.
Why, though? How does that benefit him in any way?
Do you even underpants gnomes bro?
The most likely theory I've seen so far is that he wants to make it Free in the Parler/4chan sense, using the positive karma balance behind the word Freenode to legitimize it. This, like all other theories, is not supported by strong enough evidence that it can be declared certain.
> Free in the Parler/4chan sense
If that were his goal, banning any channel even mentioning libera.chat seems to be going in the opposite direction. If he actually went more hands-off in the style of 4chan it'd have had a chance of surviving. There was a period after the takeover where a lot of people were just kinda waiting to see. Now that they have seen there's not much chance left for freenode IMO.
If that were his goal, banning any channel even mentioning libera.chat seems to be going in the opposite direction. If he actually went more hands-off in the style of 4chan it'd have had a chance of surviving. There was a period after the takeover where a lot of people were just kinda waiting to see. Now that they have seen there's not much chance left for freenode IMO.
No one predicted “discards nickserv database” so I don’t think we’re done being surprised by what comes next.
If I weren't so annoyed at the whole thing I would find it deeply amusing in a sort of absurdist way.
Dictators gonna dictate.
I think the answer is that it doesn't, and what he actually wanted was the minor prestige of (sort of) owning and funding (part of) Freenode and having his company's logo in the corner of the site whilst leaving the actual operations to the existing staff. That is to say, basically the same status quo as the last few years.
From what I can tell, somewhere along the line some of the staff decided that wasn't OK and kicked out the person who'd actually been in charge of the network since the founder died, his newly-appointed replacement demanded that the Freenode domain be transferred to him personally and rejected Lee and others' suggestion of giving control of it to the community instead, and things went downhill from there with attempts to lock Lee and people seen as affiliated with him out of the network, threats of mass resignations and bogus claims of unprecedented advertising intrusion on the Freenode site, selling people's personal info, etc...
From what I can tell, somewhere along the line some of the staff decided that wasn't OK and kicked out the person who'd actually been in charge of the network since the founder died, his newly-appointed replacement demanded that the Freenode domain be transferred to him personally and rejected Lee and others' suggestion of giving control of it to the community instead, and things went downhill from there with attempts to lock Lee and people seen as affiliated with him out of the network, threats of mass resignations and bogus claims of unprecedented advertising intrusion on the Freenode site, selling people's personal info, etc...
The thing is, most people will just stay, and the freak behind Freenode will have numbers to back up his claims, that his "community" is strong. Who knows how many of those users just keep running irssi in screen or have it configured on bouncer, checking it once a year when they need to ask question. Maybe over long time, the numbers will shift. But most people just don't care about the platform they chat through.
I'm glad someone else in the comments posted this link: https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php which clearly indicates freenode is tanking and libera is matching it but upwards. In a month it'll be overtaken; I think there may be a lot of inertia from people who have a load of irc channels open but don't actively interact with it, as well as old webpages pointing to the freenode servers. But it's a matter of time, nobody will promote freenode anymore, all IRC communities will or have migrated, etc.
Yeah. I had one or two channels that took some time moving, but this morning my last one moved, so I've finally logged off Freenode for the first time in about 15 years. In a few more weeks/months, pretty much the only "users" left will be IRC proxies that someone forgot about.
Luckily the threshold for switching to libera for non-channel-owners is pretty damn low. Just update your config to point towards libera instead of freenode. Even if you only lurk that's probably not too much to ask.
The years around 2000 were wild, then everything calmed down year after year
The evidence suggests that is not the case. Freenode has already lost almost half of its users in the last month and the projections suggest that Libera Chat will overtake freenode in user count in just over a week and that freenode will drop to the third largest network by user count in about a month. These projections have been pretty optimistic for freenode over the last few weeks too, the reality of the situation has shown freenode lose users faster than the projections forecast.
https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php
https://isfreenodedeadyet.com/
https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php
https://isfreenodedeadyet.com/
> But most people just don't care about the platform they chat through.
People love to throw this sentiment around literally every time any kind of platform does something shitty, and it's certainly very effective at demotivating people from even trying to do anything about it. It would be great if people stopped claiming this, because it's really not helping anybody and makes the job of resolving governance issues so much harder.
This specific case is actually a good example of how the sentiment is completely wrong, too; with the right strategy (which was what happened here) it's clearly possible to get people to move en masse. As evidenced by Freenode bleeding users to Libera at breakneck pace, and effectively all projects having moved over.
Bottom line: you might not want to put in the effort to solve governance issues like this, and that's fine. But please stop actively telling other people that they won't succeed.
People love to throw this sentiment around literally every time any kind of platform does something shitty, and it's certainly very effective at demotivating people from even trying to do anything about it. It would be great if people stopped claiming this, because it's really not helping anybody and makes the job of resolving governance issues so much harder.
This specific case is actually a good example of how the sentiment is completely wrong, too; with the right strategy (which was what happened here) it's clearly possible to get people to move en masse. As evidenced by Freenode bleeding users to Libera at breakneck pace, and effectively all projects having moved over.
Bottom line: you might not want to put in the effort to solve governance issues like this, and that's fine. But please stop actively telling other people that they won't succeed.
I think there's a spectrum of caring. Facebook users barely comprehend what their platform is doing to them, IRC users would get ham radio callsigns if they needed to.
I agree with the sentiment, but I don't know about "most users". The numbers are already getting pretty close to half of what they were before, so even if they're still big the graph seems to counter any claims they might make about a strong community: https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php
People will stay? None of the places I was in on IRC have stayed.
Some other thread is saying that 40% of the userbase had hemoraged already
Some other thread is saying that 40% of the userbase had hemoraged already
Channel takeovers were mostly done by re-creating channels, which causes everyone to be kicked from a channel.
Also, yes there are lots of idle people but at the same time when nobody responds to them with ~50ppl to the room, they will eventually wonder why.
Plus channels having no op (Just chanserv), maybe freenode staff. Which will look even weirder than usual.
Also, yes there are lots of idle people but at the same time when nobody responds to them with ~50ppl to the room, they will eventually wonder why.
Plus channels having no op (Just chanserv), maybe freenode staff. Which will look even weirder than usual.
> The thing is, most people will just stay
In this case, no.
In this case, no.
Prosecuting the largest gaslighting operation against open source that I can recall, against a group of people more likely to notice and react very badly.
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
It's almost like they thought irc was dying too slowly or something.
IRC isn't dying. Freenode is. And the communities are on libera.chat.
To be fair, IRC user counts have fallen 50% in 5 years.The biggest driver being the relative collapse of IRCNet and Quakenet from 50-60k users to 10-15k users, which is likely driven by the migration of the gamer and casual userbase to Discord. Freenode held on because techies were more suspicous of going to a closed platform, but even they're not going to split between Libera, OFTC, some not getting the message about Freenode, Discord and Matrix.
It's been going on for a lot longer than 5 years. Most of the legacy IRC networks (IRCnet, DALnet, EFnet, QuakeNet, Undernet, Rizon) peaked around 2005 and have been shrinking steadily ever since.
Why I don't understand is, why is nobody talking about Crystel? She sold something she didn't own betraying the trust of everyone, and yet, nobody mentions her.
She went to hols and xmas parties, she was "elected" by peers and then she picked the worst person even and SOLD HIM SOMETHING SHE DIDN'T OWN.
Reminds me of GoT
“He would see this country burn if he could be King of the ashes." - Varys
“He would see this country burn if he could be King of the ashes." - Varys
Nothing says stop using our irc networking like klining #linux
It's pretty strange to me that there are still channels hanging around instead of moving to libera.chat, but it is actualky probably good that they are kicking them out. Doing everyone a service, this way pretty soon no one will be able to be confused about which is the correct network.
freenode is dead. Everything it stood for is dead.
Staff tout free speech, but they apparently only mean troll speech since anyone speaking against them or announcing new homes is getting channels stolen and users banned. It's disgusting.
Staff tout free speech, but they apparently only mean troll speech since anyone speaking against them or announcing new homes is getting channels stolen and users banned. It's disgusting.
What I don't understand is why they double down on this destructive behaviour. It's a really excellent way to piss off those that hadn't left yet (and as such must have been leaning towards their side!), nothing else.
But really what they're doing is the opposite of responsible and fair management. I don't want a network to be run like this.
But really what they're doing is the opposite of responsible and fair management. I don't want a network to be run like this.
I guess it goes with the personality type. They are right, irrelevant of the blatant facts fleeing out the door every day, and blog posts detailing their malcontent every week.
Freenode is not dead, it has a new name. And everything it stood for is especially not dead.
Sure, the communities have moved on.
This is what Lee did not understand. freenode was never something he could own.
freenode was communities of people. The servers were donated, provided by people in the communities who wanted a reliable network. The staff were members of those communities, developers for those projects, and all volunteers. The users never were freenode users, they were ubuntu, and debian, and ham radio, and gimp users.
There was nothing to OWN.
And now that someone who has no clue about any of this does, they leave in droves.
freenode was communities of people. The servers were donated, provided by people in the communities who wanted a reliable network. The staff were members of those communities, developers for those projects, and all volunteers. The users never were freenode users, they were ubuntu, and debian, and ham radio, and gimp users.
There was nothing to OWN.
And now that someone who has no clue about any of this does, they leave in droves.
If you remove the editorialization of events, it seems like the primary motivation here is to merge the ##linux and #linux channels, which actually makes sense from a new user perspective. It was always odd to me that some channel names had a double hash, while others had a single hash (and the two can co-exist iirc).
The double hash ones were meant to indicate that the channel wasn't "run" by anyone officially affiliated with the free software with that name. This isn't always consistent since there's no mechanism to determine who is officially affiliated with most free software. Additionally the status can change over time making some channels with double octothorpes official without renaming them.
What's everyone's favorite linux-based client nowadays? I've been out of it a long time, but recent events have got me interested in seeing what's happening at libre chat.
I use ZNC to connect to irc and switch between a couple clients, but mainly I use irssi. I keep ZNC always running so I can still see what was said while I was away.
I use The Lounge.
https://thelounge.chat/
https://thelounge.chat/
Weechat, takes a bit to set it up properly but it is extremely flexible. It can also act as a relay for another weechat client or weechat-remote.
Weechat.
I'm looking forward to the weechat-matrix-rs project becoming usable, so I can also use it as a Matrix client.
I'm looking forward to the weechat-matrix-rs project becoming usable, so I can also use it as a Matrix client.
konversation is pretty nice on kde.
I didn't know anything about this guy but now I'm not a fan. I quit freenode and I cancelled my Private Internet Access subscription too. Neat.
Andrew Lee sold Private Internet Access in 2019 and has nothing to do with them anymore. Likewise, PIA has nothing to do with Freenode.
Anthing to do with this? https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7ev8y/freenode-open-source-...
Wow, I didn't know Lee was a "nominal" crown princee of South Korea. As a South Korean myself, I really hate the former royal family. It embarrasses me that their negative influence contributed to the collapse of not only their own country, but also Freenode.
For very small values of nominal.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27494790
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27494790
Yes it has everything to do with that.
At this point I wonder, why not just pull the plug and restart the server/network?
I suppose you could suggest it would be off-putting to users, but the current method seems to have done the same.
Does anyone know what the endgame is for freenode? Is there one?
I suppose you could suggest it would be off-putting to users, but the current method seems to have done the same.
Does anyone know what the endgame is for freenode? Is there one?
Can someone provide some background? What started this?
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/freenode-irc-has-bee...
Abbreviated: A LLC has enough papers to prove that they own Freenode, and they have more money than the Freenode past volunteers to spend in court fighting over this. Hence the Freenode volunteers decided to abandon Freenode.
Lesson: Even though you are a fully volunteer organization, always maintain an explicit paper trail that holds in court who owns and what, or someone will at some point simply come up with some documentation to their advantage and claim what you've built as their own.
Abbreviated: A LLC has enough papers to prove that they own Freenode, and they have more money than the Freenode past volunteers to spend in court fighting over this. Hence the Freenode volunteers decided to abandon Freenode.
Lesson: Even though you are a fully volunteer organization, always maintain an explicit paper trail that holds in court who owns and what, or someone will at some point simply come up with some documentation to their advantage and claim what you've built as their own.
The bigger lesson is anytime there is something of value with more than a single person involved, all assumptions need to be written down and codified. I'll add that if friends are involved, even more so.
> A LLC has enough papers to prove that they own Freenode
Actually they almost certainly don't. But they don't need to, either; they can just suppress the staff through legal threats, because lawsuits are expensive. Whether they are in the right is immaterial.
Actually they almost certainly don't. But they don't need to, either; they can just suppress the staff through legal threats, because lawsuits are expensive. Whether they are in the right is immaterial.
Interesting. So how much did Lee pay for Freenode? Did that all go to Christel Dahlskjaer?
As I understand it, Lee paid for the domain name and generously donated hosting -- and had done for years. Thus, he had keys to the house, and when he decided that he owned it, nobody could stop him short of a court injunction. But apparently there was no clear legal agreement, so nothing can be done.
From the Arstechnica article:
In 2017, Christel Dahlskjaer—who was, at the time, head of Freenode staff—created a corporation, Freenode Ltd., which she immediately sold to Lee.
Sounds like some money exchanged hands.
In 2017, Christel Dahlskjaer—who was, at the time, head of Freenode staff—created a corporation, Freenode Ltd., which she immediately sold to Lee.
Sounds like some money exchanged hands.
There have been many stories on HN, but as far as I know the basic story is like this.
Someone bought the freenode domain name
The group of people that ran freenode get in an argument with that person
All of the previous administrators leave to start libera
the new owner of freenode installs his own administrators.
Channels start switching to libera
freenode bans any one discussing libera
freenode seizes channels that are in the process of migrating, because they consider libera competition.
Someone bought the freenode domain name
The group of people that ran freenode get in an argument with that person
All of the previous administrators leave to start libera
the new owner of freenode installs his own administrators.
Channels start switching to libera
freenode bans any one discussing libera
freenode seizes channels that are in the process of migrating, because they consider libera competition.
Freenode IRC staff resign en masse after takeover by Korea’s “crown prince” https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/05/freenode-irc-has-bee...
Lots of HN discussion: https://www.google.com/search?q=freenode+site%3Anews.ycombin...
Lots of HN discussion: https://www.google.com/search?q=freenode+site%3Anews.ycombin...
TLDR Bullet Point version.
* Founder lilo/Rob died.
* Christel became new head of staff.
* Christel "sold" Freenode to Andrew Lee (of which was not hers to sell) and never told the rest of Freenode staff the terms.
* Lee decided to assert himself by claiming he owned all of Freenode and that the staff had to hand over the keys to the kingdom to him.
* Staff resisted, Lee used threats. Staff decided it was better to move on.
* Libera.chat formed.
* Since the majority of Freenode was the relationship a lot of projects had with the now ex-Freenode staffers, most decided to go with the staff to Libera.
* Lee threw a fit and decided to use a bot to hijack 700+ channels that happened to mention "libera" in the topic, regardless if the channel actually intended to move over. This included channels owned by IBM, Ubuntu, Gentoo, Wikimedia, GCC, etc...
* Channel takeovers continued despite his apology when caught.
* Lee is certifiable. https://corrupt.tech/1708590130-ocr-compressed.pdf
* Founder lilo/Rob died.
* Christel became new head of staff.
* Christel "sold" Freenode to Andrew Lee (of which was not hers to sell) and never told the rest of Freenode staff the terms.
* Lee decided to assert himself by claiming he owned all of Freenode and that the staff had to hand over the keys to the kingdom to him.
* Staff resisted, Lee used threats. Staff decided it was better to move on.
* Libera.chat formed.
* Since the majority of Freenode was the relationship a lot of projects had with the now ex-Freenode staffers, most decided to go with the staff to Libera.
* Lee threw a fit and decided to use a bot to hijack 700+ channels that happened to mention "libera" in the topic, regardless if the channel actually intended to move over. This included channels owned by IBM, Ubuntu, Gentoo, Wikimedia, GCC, etc...
* Channel takeovers continued despite his apology when caught.
* Lee is certifiable. https://corrupt.tech/1708590130-ocr-compressed.pdf
> Christel "sold" Freenode to Andrew Lee (of which was not hers to sell) and never told the rest of Freenode staff the terms.
If this is the case, is anyone pursuing a way to invalidate the sale?
If this is the case, is anyone pursuing a way to invalidate the sale?
Because likely nobody who can afford to has any standing.
Events up until May 24th:
https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af4...
After that, at every turn when Andrew Lee has been given the choice between doing the right thing and acting like a comic book villain, he has chosen the latter.
Removed any restraint on staff, tried to bribe FOSSHOST to be the face of his operations, hired known trolls and right-wing extremists as staff.
More materially, he has killed or driven away ##linux, #fsf, #gnu, #archlinux, #gentoo, #fedora, #ubuntu, #wikipedia and OVER 700 MORE PROJECTS:
https://github.com/siraben/freenode-exodus
And he is not done yet. He has announced that soon he will switch the whole network over to a new irc daemon, which he will fail at because he doesn't know how and the people who do won't touch him with a 7-foot pole:
https://www.reddit.com/r/irc/comments/nyp855/new_freenode_ma...
https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af4...
After that, at every turn when Andrew Lee has been given the choice between doing the right thing and acting like a comic book villain, he has chosen the latter.
Removed any restraint on staff, tried to bribe FOSSHOST to be the face of his operations, hired known trolls and right-wing extremists as staff.
More materially, he has killed or driven away ##linux, #fsf, #gnu, #archlinux, #gentoo, #fedora, #ubuntu, #wikipedia and OVER 700 MORE PROJECTS:
https://github.com/siraben/freenode-exodus
And he is not done yet. He has announced that soon he will switch the whole network over to a new irc daemon, which he will fail at because he doesn't know how and the people who do won't touch him with a 7-foot pole:
https://www.reddit.com/r/irc/comments/nyp855/new_freenode_ma...
All of this really puts Lee's evangelizing of Private Internet Access into a new light, doesn't it?
Lee ... founded popular VPN company Private Internet Access, LTMI, which last year sold to an Israeli cybersecurity firm for $95.5 million.
IMHO, at this point you need to seriously consider the possibility that everything he's touched, including Freenode, could be compromised in some way, if not already a literal "honeypot"...
Off-topic: I love his new house: https://www.insider.com/south-korean-royals-california-mansi...
IMHO, at this point you need to seriously consider the possibility that everything he's touched, including Freenode, could be compromised in some way, if not already a literal "honeypot"...
Off-topic: I love his new house: https://www.insider.com/south-korean-royals-california-mansi...
Andrew Lee sold Private Internet Access in 2019 and has nothing to do with them anymore. Likewise, PIA has nothing to do with Freenode.
> this channel is in violation of Freenode policy
Any word on the alleged policy violation? Or has Lee just starting nuking communities at this point?
Any word on the alleged policy violation? Or has Lee just starting nuking communities at this point?
The policy basically changes on a daily basis, depending on which action he needs to quickly justify.
Generally speaking, mentioning anything about libera.chat in the topic is counted as "spam" or "advertising" or whatever, even if you were keeping a presence on both networks, or only considering the possibility of a move.
Generally speaking, mentioning anything about libera.chat in the topic is counted as "spam" or "advertising" or whatever, even if you were keeping a presence on both networks, or only considering the possibility of a move.
Just curious, tried LibraIRC but I didn't see any programming channel. Did I enter the wrong server? On Freenode I can see e.g. #c or #c++ which are channels with large amount of users.
Both of those are on Libera, with ~500 users in C and ~300 in C++.
[deleted]
Where did #infra-talk go to?
We are on libera.chat,as ##infra-talk - just like on freenode.
I'm old even for IRC, never saw a channel using double # before
What's the reason for all of this?
Too stupid for a takeover attempt. Looks more like a successful destruction attempt.
[deleted]
Is there anywhere I can get a TLDR about the (apparently extensive) background here?
Libera: Current global users 32769
Freenode's decline in users over the past month: http://www.hinner.com/ircstat/Socip_F_2.gif
Comparison showing Freenode decline and Libera rise: https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php
Probably won't be long before Freenode is effectively dead.
Edit: Also see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27502059 for a projection and more stats.