Building a vision of life without work (2015)(livingafi.com)
livingafi.com
Building a vision of life without work (2015)
https://livingafi.com/2015/03/09/building-a-vision-of-life-without-work/
432 comments
> Previously my underlying approach to life looked like: "I will do X which will enable me to do Y so that I can finally do Z." I now approach my days with "What will make me happy?"
Great insight that is worth repeating.
One of my biggest problems with FIRE discussions is how much they reinforce the idea that retirement is a prerequisite for achieving happiness. This leads a lot of FIRE-minded people to double down on jobs they hate that consume too much of their time and energy, only because they think it will better enable them to be happy later.
For the lucky few who can be early employees at unicorn startups, that might be true. For the average FIRE person working a $100-200K/year job, they might be better off scaling back to a sustainable 40hr/week job and making a point of taking vacations and doing activities in their off time. Even if that means taking a paycut and delaying their target retirement date.
You don't have to wait until FIRE to start taking vacations, doing hobbies, or working on projects. If a job is consuming so much of your life that you feel you don't have time to do anything else, it's time to reevaluate the job.
Great insight that is worth repeating.
One of my biggest problems with FIRE discussions is how much they reinforce the idea that retirement is a prerequisite for achieving happiness. This leads a lot of FIRE-minded people to double down on jobs they hate that consume too much of their time and energy, only because they think it will better enable them to be happy later.
For the lucky few who can be early employees at unicorn startups, that might be true. For the average FIRE person working a $100-200K/year job, they might be better off scaling back to a sustainable 40hr/week job and making a point of taking vacations and doing activities in their off time. Even if that means taking a paycut and delaying their target retirement date.
You don't have to wait until FIRE to start taking vacations, doing hobbies, or working on projects. If a job is consuming so much of your life that you feel you don't have time to do anything else, it's time to reevaluate the job.
> One of my biggest problems with FIRE discussions is how much they reinforce the idea that retirement is a prerequisite for achieving happiness. This leads a lot of FIRE-minded people to double down on jobs they hate that consume too much of their time and energy, only because they think it will better enable them to be happy later.
On the FIRE subreddit, anyway, they're very clear that:
1. It's the FI part that really matters. RE is just one possible choice of what to do with it.
2. It's silly to make yourself miserable until you're FI.
3. FI is not magic. It will not meet your expectations unless you've carefully thought through what it is you want to do with that freedom.
On the FIRE subreddit, anyway, they're very clear that:
1. It's the FI part that really matters. RE is just one possible choice of what to do with it.
2. It's silly to make yourself miserable until you're FI.
3. FI is not magic. It will not meet your expectations unless you've carefully thought through what it is you want to do with that freedom.
"Build the life you want, then save for it" has become the mantra of these subreddits as of late, which I think is a much better approach than the "live and eat like a college student so you can live and eat like a college student for the rest of your life but without having to work" that it used to come across as.
This was what always turned me off from FIRE stuff, and I’m glad to hear it’s changing. I’ve seen so many friends go down the path of “convince myself it’s okay to be absolutely miserable for 10-15 years so that I can continue to do that forever but without someone paying me to be miserable” and it is extremely sad to watch, and often very hard to convince someone not to do.
> ...“convince myself it’s okay to be absolutely miserable for 10-15 years so that I can continue to do that forever but without someone paying me to be miserable” and it is extremely sad to watch...
Another way of looking at that situation is to ask why this cohort of some of the most driven, value-sensitive people in the labor force are so miserable with their leadership that they will voluntarily subject themselves to such a regime for the rest of their life, not for sipping mai tais on the beach but just to implement "...but without that leadership". It is nearly a truism people leave managers (doesn't even have to be direct managers) and not companies.
And if you do not accept that truism, the question still stands, just in a different area. Why are our workplaces so systemically dysfunctional that it gives rise to this behavior in a cohort that arguably should be highly coveted and aggressively retained by their employers?
Another way of looking at that situation is to ask why this cohort of some of the most driven, value-sensitive people in the labor force are so miserable with their leadership that they will voluntarily subject themselves to such a regime for the rest of their life, not for sipping mai tais on the beach but just to implement "...but without that leadership". It is nearly a truism people leave managers (doesn't even have to be direct managers) and not companies.
And if you do not accept that truism, the question still stands, just in a different area. Why are our workplaces so systemically dysfunctional that it gives rise to this behavior in a cohort that arguably should be highly coveted and aggressively retained by their employers?
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I'm replying again to this same comment, but anecdotally #3 is something I've seen to a surprising degree.
There are a lot of posts in FI subreddits/forums where people have retired early and are totally lost, asking what they should do to find meaning or enjoyment out of life now that they're not working. They've spent so much of their time and energy of their prime years on working and saving that they haven't had anything left over to discover what sorts of things really bring them fulfillment, and it's incredibly disheartening to see.
There are a lot of posts in FI subreddits/forums where people have retired early and are totally lost, asking what they should do to find meaning or enjoyment out of life now that they're not working. They've spent so much of their time and energy of their prime years on working and saving that they haven't had anything left over to discover what sorts of things really bring them fulfillment, and it's incredibly disheartening to see.
> ...they haven't had anything left over to discover what sorts of things really bring them fulfillment, and it's incredibly disheartening to see.
The buried lede on those stories is they will not spend out of their FIRE budget on activities to bring that fulfillment, leaving them with somewhat limited choices depending upon their personalities and proclivities (see below), and many have not even planned for how much that will cost.
There are very few personality types that would be happy as a clam spending a hundred years puttering around the stacks of libraries researching a particular scholarly pursuit, then spend another hundred on another specific area, for example. The list of what we do not know is practically infinite, and were I immortal, I could burn a few thousand years researching subjects I find fascinating. Cheap for someone on even lean-FIRE.
There are still quite a few areas of the world that are very sparsely-mapped and their microbiomes sparsely-cataloged to help preserve their bio-diversity. I could spend quite a few centuries just doing that, while hiking and camping. Relatively cheap as pursuits go.
Refurbishing and repairing old artifacts would require some spending on tooling and supplies, but still cheaper than say, learning to fly. I could spend a few thousand years just learning different trades to master craftsman skill levels.
I find the RE experiences others relate that they feel aimless baffling, but only due to my personality. So it is not surprising to me that different personalities cannot conceive satisfaction within the same pursuits. Pursuits that could cost far more than they realized they needed to budget for. FIRE is more about knowing your self than hitting an appropriate total that survives a 2% SWR.
The buried lede on those stories is they will not spend out of their FIRE budget on activities to bring that fulfillment, leaving them with somewhat limited choices depending upon their personalities and proclivities (see below), and many have not even planned for how much that will cost.
There are very few personality types that would be happy as a clam spending a hundred years puttering around the stacks of libraries researching a particular scholarly pursuit, then spend another hundred on another specific area, for example. The list of what we do not know is practically infinite, and were I immortal, I could burn a few thousand years researching subjects I find fascinating. Cheap for someone on even lean-FIRE.
There are still quite a few areas of the world that are very sparsely-mapped and their microbiomes sparsely-cataloged to help preserve their bio-diversity. I could spend quite a few centuries just doing that, while hiking and camping. Relatively cheap as pursuits go.
Refurbishing and repairing old artifacts would require some spending on tooling and supplies, but still cheaper than say, learning to fly. I could spend a few thousand years just learning different trades to master craftsman skill levels.
I find the RE experiences others relate that they feel aimless baffling, but only due to my personality. So it is not surprising to me that different personalities cannot conceive satisfaction within the same pursuits. Pursuits that could cost far more than they realized they needed to budget for. FIRE is more about knowing your self than hitting an appropriate total that survives a 2% SWR.
"carefully thought through what it is you want to do with that freedom"
I used to think this way, now I severely disagree, I think nowwhat you want in life cant be anticipated with thought, it can only be hewn out of a rough stone through trial, error, success, and reflection. Atleast thats been my arc over the last 16 years working towards happiness and freedom.
For example, have you ever had a long term regret that you finally faced only to come away thinking, "Now that Im in this position, I should have never regretted not being here." The regret disappears and you feel much more confident in your ability to steer yourself.
You only gain true perspective through actions, not thought, how could you, your thoughts are siloed from reality.
I used to think this way, now I severely disagree, I think nowwhat you want in life cant be anticipated with thought, it can only be hewn out of a rough stone through trial, error, success, and reflection. Atleast thats been my arc over the last 16 years working towards happiness and freedom.
For example, have you ever had a long term regret that you finally faced only to come away thinking, "Now that Im in this position, I should have never regretted not being here." The regret disappears and you feel much more confident in your ability to steer yourself.
You only gain true perspective through actions, not thought, how could you, your thoughts are siloed from reality.
This may be stated often, but it's still easy to get too caught up in the optimization game of FI. I appreciate every time someone reiterates the value in the journey, even when its expressed as a concern for FI.
I see it a little differently.
As an analogy, I'm a big believer in caloric intake determining weight for most people. Consume more calories than you use and you will tend to gain weight. Consume less and you will tend to lose weight. So to get a caloric deficit you can exercise more or eat less. But... it's 90-95% diet.
Bringing this back to FIRE, the key lesson I think is that what matters in having financial freedom is controlling costs not maximizing income. Expenses can (and often do) _easily_ rise to your level of income. People fall in these traps of thinking they need a $5m house instead of a $2m house, or a bigger boat or a third vacation home.
But if you control your expenses AND can be happy then you doubly benefit: you increase your savings (and thus the time required until you have financial independence) AND you decrease how much money you need in retirement because you're accustomed to lower costs.
So the point of FIRE is (IMHO) not to seek satisfaction through material things but rather through your approach to life and your experiences.
I've seen this with coworkers who convince themselves they need $50,000pa/child for private school, $500k+ plus to pay for each child's Ivy League education and so forth and kill themselves to achieve that. Worse, they can become bitter and unhappy as they realize how long that will take them to achieve even as the top 1% of earners.
So not only are they working super-hard for longer they're seeing their families less and bringing home this negativity and entitlement. All of that is a prison of your own making.
FIRE philosophically is about really examining what you need and what's really important.
As an analogy, I'm a big believer in caloric intake determining weight for most people. Consume more calories than you use and you will tend to gain weight. Consume less and you will tend to lose weight. So to get a caloric deficit you can exercise more or eat less. But... it's 90-95% diet.
Bringing this back to FIRE, the key lesson I think is that what matters in having financial freedom is controlling costs not maximizing income. Expenses can (and often do) _easily_ rise to your level of income. People fall in these traps of thinking they need a $5m house instead of a $2m house, or a bigger boat or a third vacation home.
But if you control your expenses AND can be happy then you doubly benefit: you increase your savings (and thus the time required until you have financial independence) AND you decrease how much money you need in retirement because you're accustomed to lower costs.
So the point of FIRE is (IMHO) not to seek satisfaction through material things but rather through your approach to life and your experiences.
I've seen this with coworkers who convince themselves they need $50,000pa/child for private school, $500k+ plus to pay for each child's Ivy League education and so forth and kill themselves to achieve that. Worse, they can become bitter and unhappy as they realize how long that will take them to achieve even as the top 1% of earners.
So not only are they working super-hard for longer they're seeing their families less and bringing home this negativity and entitlement. All of that is a prison of your own making.
FIRE philosophically is about really examining what you need and what's really important.
> For the average FIRE person working a $100-200K/year job, they might be better off scaling back to a sustainable 40hr/week job and making a point of taking vacations and doing activities in their off time.
In software right now, I think it’s not difficult to have a sustainable low-six-figure job where you take vacations and have activities and off time to enjoy them.
In software right now, I think it’s not difficult to have a sustainable low-six-figure job where you take vacations and have activities and off time to enjoy them.
That depends on the region and industry. Outside of "tech hubs" like the Bay Area, most software jobs paying close to six-figures are still more like "business casual, butt in the seats" than they are "WFH 2x/week, wear sandals and shorts if you want".
These jobs have things like accrued PTO, limited perks, and relatively inflexible time-off tolerance that is highly dependent on the manager's whim.
"Not difficult" is relative, really.
These jobs have things like accrued PTO, limited perks, and relatively inflexible time-off tolerance that is highly dependent on the manager's whim.
"Not difficult" is relative, really.
I heavily disagree, especially in current times. "small startup" culture happens outside of tech hubs if you look, especially anywhere that's close to a state university with any substantial CS program. Trying to recruit new grads as a small company in an ok-but-not-hub city means bending some QOL considerations, especially in demand jobs like devs.
"Small startup"s are the last place I'd look for the kind of work-life balance required to actually enjoy the fruits of one's labor. You're trading a stable work week for perks at that point--differently bad work environments, in this context.
> they might be better off scaling back to a sustainable 40hr/week job
40hr/week is the unsustainable part.
40hr/week is the unsustainable part.
40h/week of work leaves very little time for household, kids, exercise, side projects, and relaxing.
I think 20h/week is a more reasonable target if you want to enjoy things beside work.
Of course it's okay to work 40h/week if you really want to, or even more, if you enjoy it, but you should really think hard about whether that's really what you want, or if it's just what your employer wants you to do.
I think 20h/week is a more reasonable target if you want to enjoy things beside work.
Of course it's okay to work 40h/week if you really want to, or even more, if you enjoy it, but you should really think hard about whether that's really what you want, or if it's just what your employer wants you to do.
> 20h/week
That's what I have an issue with.
When I'm working on a problem, I cannot simply forget about it at 3pm and head to the beach to enjoy life. The problem will be in my head 24/7 until one of us gives up.
That's what I have an issue with.
When I'm working on a problem, I cannot simply forget about it at 3pm and head to the beach to enjoy life. The problem will be in my head 24/7 until one of us gives up.
If you have the flexibility to restrict your work to 20 hr/wk you probably also get to decide when you work; nothing says you can't work 20 hrs straight, or 80 hrs/week for a month and then take a break. Lots of consulting-type work actually prefers this approach.
In my 20s, I was very much like this. When I was struggling with burnout, an older colleague told me that when he leaves the building, he shuts work off entirely and enjoys unrelated things. At the time, hearing this frustrated me because I couldn't even begin to fathom which muscle one would flex in order to "shut off" thinking about work.
But now I'm the age that he was back then, and I find I can compartmentalize or turn off work thinking easily. I'm not suggesting it's a factor of age, exactly, but perhaps some other change that occurs over time? Not really sure, but something in my head definitely changed.
But now I'm the age that he was back then, and I find I can compartmentalize or turn off work thinking easily. I'm not suggesting it's a factor of age, exactly, but perhaps some other change that occurs over time? Not really sure, but something in my head definitely changed.
Try this. Last thing at the end of the workday, write yourself a context save. Jot three to five sentences about where you are, what's in your head. If you do it right, the next morning you can brief yourself and jump right back into it. And in-between, not need to hold it in your head, grinding away in the background.
This is very dependent on the individual. I personally prefer intense, all-consuming project-oriented work, followed by longer gaps to recover. I think what we share is some form of a state of decompression/recovery though.
That's not a problem. The difference is you put the thoughts on the back burner during off hours, which will often lead to greater insights than mulling over them constantly. Inspiration requires inactivity.
This is also something you can learn through techniques that fall under what HR might call mindfulness. After a while, you have a mental git stash that you can just pop. It's not entirely lossless, but the benefits to life are immense.
This is also something you can learn through techniques that fall under what HR might call mindfulness. After a while, you have a mental git stash that you can just pop. It's not entirely lossless, but the benefits to life are immense.
This is where I think the concept of "coasting" to financial independence could be beneficial for many. The idea is that you build up enough investments early in life such that without any additional contributions, your net worth will grow to support retirement at a traditional retirement age. Then you just need to make enough money to cover your monthly living expenses, which could open up a lot more career options that better fit your desired lifestyle.
https://walletburst.com/tools/coast-fire-calc
https://walletburst.com/tools/coast-fire-calc
Yeah, my wife and I talk about reaching a sort of semi-retirement state where we can just make some small amount of money and not stress out about money anymore. That will keep us busy but we can take breaks any time we want to.
This!! I've wanted to drop down to 18-20 hours TOPS for years. Being in tech, I haven't seen a single opportunity for this being a possibility. When I talk to my managers about it (mostly in large orgs, but even in smaller 12-people shops) they look at me like I'm out of my fucking mind. Response always is "no, you can't be productive enough in 18 hours to contribute meaningfully to the product".
That's only 24% of your time most weeks, even less on weeks when you have holidays or vacation. What's unsustainable? In fact many people have done it their whole adult lives, which makes it sustainable by definition.
> That's only 24% of your time most weeks, even less on weeks when you have holidays or vacation. What's unsustainable? In fact many people have done it their whole adult lives, which makes it sustainable by definition.
It's significantly more than 50% of the time that's available to me, by the time you factor in the things that i do because of work it's getting to around 70%.
Not that many people have done it their entire lives in the way we do today. Now we have the majority of millennials with 2 people trying to do a 40 hour week along with all of the other things that need to be done. I would argue a 40 hour work week + extras is great if i'm not cooking, cleaning, doing much childcare etc.
If we look back at pre-industrial humans we'll see that the striking thing is quite how much time they spend not doing anything productive.
It's significantly more than 50% of the time that's available to me, by the time you factor in the things that i do because of work it's getting to around 70%.
Not that many people have done it their entire lives in the way we do today. Now we have the majority of millennials with 2 people trying to do a 40 hour week along with all of the other things that need to be done. I would argue a 40 hour work week + extras is great if i'm not cooking, cleaning, doing much childcare etc.
If we look back at pre-industrial humans we'll see that the striking thing is quite how much time they spend not doing anything productive.
It may be 24% of time, but it's something like 70% of my energy. Add chores on top of that and there's barely any energy left for discretionary activities.
Factoring in activities in support of work (commute, dress), it's more than 50% of one's waking hours during the week.
The time of sleep does not belong to us.
Terrible at math (heh) but its something like multiply 24% by 2/3. Aka 24/3=8
Terrible at math (heh) but its something like multiply 24% by 2/3. Aka 24/3=8
I would feel like a king with 20k a year and so I am trying to find the right degree to work 3, maybe 2 days a week to be able to achieve this?
Any suggestions?
Any suggestions?
If you find anything let me know. Of course here in the US the nigh-insurmountable problem with part time work is that you won't get health coverage at an affordable rate.
Yes, it's actually a bit better since "Obamacare" but still pretty ridiculous. Another is simply finding an employer who agrees to a part-time engineer. I'm typically on 3-6 major projects at any given time and it seems pretty obvious that simply dropping to 2-3 and working half the time would be a pretty easy adjustment to both sides -- but most management considers this unthinkable for some reason.
I couldn't resist chiming in here: we're doing this at Neomind Labs. We don't act as steward for front-end frameworks yet, but we're considering supporting React (I saw that you're a front-end developer).
Because that would also make you more efficient and make them look bad.
This is the case where it might make sense to earn $100k-$200k per year and plow the majority of it into savings until you can get a fairly safe $20k return.
Might only take a few years to save the required amount.
Might only take a few years to save the required amount.
> I would feel like a king with 20k a year and so I am trying to find the right degree to work 3, maybe 2 days a week to be able to achieve this?
20k? did you miss a digit? That's less than my rent for the year...
for 3 days anything that pays more than $18 an hour and allows for flexible scheduling
you don't need a degree for this.
Medical transcription, coding and billing, working as a PA, Truck driving, nursing the list goes on.
20k? did you miss a digit? That's less than my rent for the year...
for 3 days anything that pays more than $18 an hour and allows for flexible scheduling
you don't need a degree for this.
Medical transcription, coding and billing, working as a PA, Truck driving, nursing the list goes on.
This person likely lives in a different place than you
> For the average FIRE person working a $100-200K/year job
This is not at all "average" in countries outside of the US. Here in India, for example, a $100K job is kinda like winning the lottery.
For reference, going by the exchange rate it equals somewhat close to 7.5M in local currency. Handymen and people in other labour-heavy jobs don't earn this much in their entire life, considering a 30 years of active work life. Only the top 0.01% (yes, we are an extremely populous country) people have that kind of jobs.
Going by the PPP ratio[0] of 21.99, you still need to be earning upwards of 2.2M annual, which is hardly 1% of the population, and majority of them have taken upwards of 8-10 years of work to reach there (which means 1/3rd of work life is gone).
The argument could also be made that buying stuff is cheaper in countries like ours, but that doesn't stand for _good_ quality items. As an example, the laptop you can buy for $1k in the US is far superior to what you can buy for 22k and slightly comparable but still better than what you can buy for 75k. If you are lucky enough with means to import, good luck with ~78% import taxes and duties. You don't make these purchases often, but when you do it breaks you. Things like dishwasher, vacuum cleaners, etc are so much more common in the US and almost considered a basic necessity whereas owing to cheap labour (and traditional lifestyle) we subscribe to househelp, which isn't really "cheap" or scalable and the cost of these items is high too.
All of this, to say that
> they might be better off scaling back to a sustainable 40hr/week job
is neither practical nor helps in a poor country where an "average" person is working more than half their lives just to make ends meet.
[0]: https://data.oecd.org/conversion/purchasing-power-parities-p...
This is not at all "average" in countries outside of the US. Here in India, for example, a $100K job is kinda like winning the lottery.
For reference, going by the exchange rate it equals somewhat close to 7.5M in local currency. Handymen and people in other labour-heavy jobs don't earn this much in their entire life, considering a 30 years of active work life. Only the top 0.01% (yes, we are an extremely populous country) people have that kind of jobs.
Going by the PPP ratio[0] of 21.99, you still need to be earning upwards of 2.2M annual, which is hardly 1% of the population, and majority of them have taken upwards of 8-10 years of work to reach there (which means 1/3rd of work life is gone).
The argument could also be made that buying stuff is cheaper in countries like ours, but that doesn't stand for _good_ quality items. As an example, the laptop you can buy for $1k in the US is far superior to what you can buy for 22k and slightly comparable but still better than what you can buy for 75k. If you are lucky enough with means to import, good luck with ~78% import taxes and duties. You don't make these purchases often, but when you do it breaks you. Things like dishwasher, vacuum cleaners, etc are so much more common in the US and almost considered a basic necessity whereas owing to cheap labour (and traditional lifestyle) we subscribe to househelp, which isn't really "cheap" or scalable and the cost of these items is high too.
All of this, to say that
> they might be better off scaling back to a sustainable 40hr/week job
is neither practical nor helps in a poor country where an "average" person is working more than half their lives just to make ends meet.
[0]: https://data.oecd.org/conversion/purchasing-power-parities-p...
"Average" on HN obviously means average SV software engineer, if not average FAANG employee (slightly joking).
But seriously it can also get tiresome when people constantly have to call out others for failing to formulate every observation in globally inclusive terms that cover all humans rich and poor.
But seriously it can also get tiresome when people constantly have to call out others for failing to formulate every observation in globally inclusive terms that cover all humans rich and poor.
Moreover, we don't even have a concept of "hourly" wages or work measurement.
- Salaries are decided monthly and unless you are an hourly billed consultant, you cannot negotiate your working hours to be lesser. - Part-time jobs do exist, but only low paying labour intensive jobs which won't leave enough energy for you to be working 2 jobs. - Shifts are again meant only for such jobs as described above. - Employment agreements explicitly prohibit you from "working" to earn in any other way. Getting a passive income is okay, but you cannot work / render services elsewhere to earn.
From junior to senior level employees, almost everyone in all sorts of jobs is overworked. Average workday last close to 10 hours, excl commute et al. Pandemic and WFH have worsened this if anything.
- Salaries are decided monthly and unless you are an hourly billed consultant, you cannot negotiate your working hours to be lesser. - Part-time jobs do exist, but only low paying labour intensive jobs which won't leave enough energy for you to be working 2 jobs. - Shifts are again meant only for such jobs as described above. - Employment agreements explicitly prohibit you from "working" to earn in any other way. Getting a passive income is okay, but you cannot work / render services elsewhere to earn.
From junior to senior level employees, almost everyone in all sorts of jobs is overworked. Average workday last close to 10 hours, excl commute et al. Pandemic and WFH have worsened this if anything.
I also noticed that many FIRE people don't actually know what to do after retiring, because work was their whole life until that point.
In general the focus should be:
Be mindful. Informed. Increase your knowledge, consider alternatives, and make decisions given an expanded list of options. (Don't just go with the default, common, mainstream way of thinking that leads to people retiring at age 65 after decades of hating their job.)
I'm a proponent of many of the concepts of FIRE, but in some ways, the attitude started way before I started reading Get Rich Slowly, and Mr. Money Mustache. I'm all about putting effort into things I really care about, while being efficient and judicious with effort being put into things I don't care about. Work is usually not at the top of my list on things I care about. So I have changed jobs frequently to find ones that pay better than the last, and are also a better fit for me. Shorter commute. Better team. More engaging work.
Along the way, spending below my means and ensuring money I do spend actually provides the result I expect (i.e. lasting happiness that a lot of spending doesn't really provide) has been instrumental in making thoughtful decisions while also accumulating that cushion that can eventually wean me off paid work as a necessity.
In other words, I don't choose jobs that suck because they pay well, so I can get to a "finish line" faster. I put all the variables into play, and make sure I'm enjoying life now while also expanding the flexibility I'll have in the future.
While we agree on a lot of things, maybe we read different "FIRE discussions" because many of them factor these things in. Compulsory work limits your options, and even more so, spending all your money or beyond your means limits your options indefinitely. That doesn't mean retirement creates happiness, or is a prerequisite for a good life, but getting beyond that work requirement can certainly give you a lot more freedom in how you choose to use your time.
Be mindful. Informed. Increase your knowledge, consider alternatives, and make decisions given an expanded list of options. (Don't just go with the default, common, mainstream way of thinking that leads to people retiring at age 65 after decades of hating their job.)
I'm a proponent of many of the concepts of FIRE, but in some ways, the attitude started way before I started reading Get Rich Slowly, and Mr. Money Mustache. I'm all about putting effort into things I really care about, while being efficient and judicious with effort being put into things I don't care about. Work is usually not at the top of my list on things I care about. So I have changed jobs frequently to find ones that pay better than the last, and are also a better fit for me. Shorter commute. Better team. More engaging work.
Along the way, spending below my means and ensuring money I do spend actually provides the result I expect (i.e. lasting happiness that a lot of spending doesn't really provide) has been instrumental in making thoughtful decisions while also accumulating that cushion that can eventually wean me off paid work as a necessity.
In other words, I don't choose jobs that suck because they pay well, so I can get to a "finish line" faster. I put all the variables into play, and make sure I'm enjoying life now while also expanding the flexibility I'll have in the future.
While we agree on a lot of things, maybe we read different "FIRE discussions" because many of them factor these things in. Compulsory work limits your options, and even more so, spending all your money or beyond your means limits your options indefinitely. That doesn't mean retirement creates happiness, or is a prerequisite for a good life, but getting beyond that work requirement can certainly give you a lot more freedom in how you choose to use your time.
I know exactly what makes me happy -- playing video games, eating good food, living in a nice climate (CA or Hawaii), and traveling the world. Unfortunately my happiness comes with a price tag.
I think it's important to understand that "what makes you happy" is much more contextual than we realize. If you're sitting outside in the freezing cold, you might think that what makes you happy is "wearing big heavy coats and drinking cocoa". That's true right now because you're fucking cold. But get out of the cold and your happiness goals may change.
Often, happiness is simply "what addresses the imbalances in my life right now?"
Today, you're probably busy working a 9-5 (or longer). You spend much of your time overwhelmed by the complexity of your job, delaying gratification and doing things you don't want to do. You're stuck inside all day and working through the nicest months of the year.
In that context, of course all you want to do is sit outside at a beach, play some leisurely videogames, and eat good meals. But that's because your life right now has a distinct absence of downtime, nature, and leisure.
When you are retired, the entire context is different and thus what makes you happy will shift too. Once you no longer have a job, you'll likely find videogames boring and understimulating. When you start taking a walk every day in the woods, you might not crave moving to Hawaii quite as much. And when you have the time to cook and savor meals every evening, eating out loses some of its lustre.
Whenever the situation of your life changes, expect your happiness goals to shift too.
Often, happiness is simply "what addresses the imbalances in my life right now?"
Today, you're probably busy working a 9-5 (or longer). You spend much of your time overwhelmed by the complexity of your job, delaying gratification and doing things you don't want to do. You're stuck inside all day and working through the nicest months of the year.
In that context, of course all you want to do is sit outside at a beach, play some leisurely videogames, and eat good meals. But that's because your life right now has a distinct absence of downtime, nature, and leisure.
When you are retired, the entire context is different and thus what makes you happy will shift too. Once you no longer have a job, you'll likely find videogames boring and understimulating. When you start taking a walk every day in the woods, you might not crave moving to Hawaii quite as much. And when you have the time to cook and savor meals every evening, eating out loses some of its lustre.
Whenever the situation of your life changes, expect your happiness goals to shift too.
What you're saying is true, but people don't always do what actually makes them happy - see addiction. There are teams of people out there building social media sites, games, etc. that are designed to keep you on there as long as possible. Not for you to get entertainment out of it.
I think that's dangerous. Maybe in a world without work the incentives would change and these platforms might not exist in the same way. But as it stands now >50% of the people I know with too much time on their hands end up self-admittedly pissing most days away. A few of them have already decided to return to work even though they don't need to.
I think that's dangerous. Maybe in a world without work the incentives would change and these platforms might not exist in the same way. But as it stands now >50% of the people I know with too much time on their hands end up self-admittedly pissing most days away. A few of them have already decided to return to work even though they don't need to.
I’ve always felt pretty in touch with what I want and why, but I’d never thought about it like this. Thanks for the interesting thought.
I think our culture teaches us the wrong mental model for happiness. We think of it like wealth: a quantity to try to maximize. If 1 happiness is good, then 2 is better, 10 is really good, and 100000 is amazing.
But that's not how our emotions work at all. Thanks to the hedonic treadmill, it's not possible to experience long-term joy over any consistent period. Active joyful enthusiasm is by nature an ephemeral experience.
Instead of happiness, what we want long term is something more akin to peace, satisfaction, or tranquility. A sense that all is right with where we are in the world.
And the model for that is much more like hunger and satiety. No one thinks that if eating one steak is good then eating a hundred steaks is great and a million is amazing. Hunger exists to address an imbalance. The goal of it is to get you back to a comfortable neutral point where you are satieted but not unpleasantly stuffed.
Unhappiness works in a similar fashion. It tells us something is off balance in our emotional life. So when you find yourself craving some experience or activity and thinking "this will make me happy", it means "this will fix a thing making me unhappy". It doesn't mean that scaling that craving up will make you extra super happy.
But that's not how our emotions work at all. Thanks to the hedonic treadmill, it's not possible to experience long-term joy over any consistent period. Active joyful enthusiasm is by nature an ephemeral experience.
Instead of happiness, what we want long term is something more akin to peace, satisfaction, or tranquility. A sense that all is right with where we are in the world.
And the model for that is much more like hunger and satiety. No one thinks that if eating one steak is good then eating a hundred steaks is great and a million is amazing. Hunger exists to address an imbalance. The goal of it is to get you back to a comfortable neutral point where you are satieted but not unpleasantly stuffed.
Unhappiness works in a similar fashion. It tells us something is off balance in our emotional life. So when you find yourself craving some experience or activity and thinking "this will make me happy", it means "this will fix a thing making me unhappy". It doesn't mean that scaling that craving up will make you extra super happy.
Being wealthy is like learning a favorite restaurant recipe. You start making the same food everyday, because you love it, so why not?
It doesn't take very long at all for the honeymoon to be over.
So what exactly was making you happy there, when you could only eat that meal occasionally in that restaurant? Was it really the food?
It doesn't take very long at all for the honeymoon to be over.
So what exactly was making you happy there, when you could only eat that meal occasionally in that restaurant? Was it really the food?
> Unfortunately my happiness comes with a price tag
It doesn't have to be a very high one though.
I quit my job and spent 2 years driving from Alaska to Argentina. I poked lava with a stick, paddled with icebergs, climbed a 20,000ft active volcano, surfed, etc. etc.
It cost $1,200 per month for absolutely every expense [1]
Before the trip I was earning $48k CAD (about $38k USD).. I just didn't spend much.
Later on I quit my job and spent three years driving all the way around Africa (35 countries around the perimeter, 54,000miles). I rode a camel and camped in the Sahara, I carried Chimpanzees, saw gorillas, petted a cheetah, saw tens of thousands of elephants in the wild, heard to lions roaring while sitting around the campfire, surfed, hiked, ate street food with friendly locals, etc. etc.
That trip cost about $1,650 per month for absolutely all expenses. [2]
Before that trip I was earning $72k CAD (about $57k USD). Again, I just tried hard to save and not spend much money while going to work for years)
I've met plenty of people that have driven their own vehicle to 100+ countries over a ~decade for about $1,500 a month. It doesn't have to be expensive.
Now I do this "for a living". I keep my expenses low and have adventures around the world. I just flew to Australia, and I'm preparing now to spend about 18 months driving all over to all the wild and remote corners I've heard about but have never seen.
[1] http://theroadchoseme.com/the-price-of-adventure
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeR3SncZkv0
It doesn't have to be a very high one though.
I quit my job and spent 2 years driving from Alaska to Argentina. I poked lava with a stick, paddled with icebergs, climbed a 20,000ft active volcano, surfed, etc. etc.
It cost $1,200 per month for absolutely every expense [1]
Before the trip I was earning $48k CAD (about $38k USD).. I just didn't spend much.
Later on I quit my job and spent three years driving all the way around Africa (35 countries around the perimeter, 54,000miles). I rode a camel and camped in the Sahara, I carried Chimpanzees, saw gorillas, petted a cheetah, saw tens of thousands of elephants in the wild, heard to lions roaring while sitting around the campfire, surfed, hiked, ate street food with friendly locals, etc. etc.
That trip cost about $1,650 per month for absolutely all expenses. [2]
Before that trip I was earning $72k CAD (about $57k USD). Again, I just tried hard to save and not spend much money while going to work for years)
I've met plenty of people that have driven their own vehicle to 100+ countries over a ~decade for about $1,500 a month. It doesn't have to be expensive.
Now I do this "for a living". I keep my expenses low and have adventures around the world. I just flew to Australia, and I'm preparing now to spend about 18 months driving all over to all the wild and remote corners I've heard about but have never seen.
[1] http://theroadchoseme.com/the-price-of-adventure
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeR3SncZkv0
Now how would you do this with a wife that works and two young children in tow?
I've met plenty of families travelling around the world. It's another level of complexity, but it certainly can be done.
I bumped into this family driving the length West Africa, one of the toughest routes in the world! They had an amazing time, and last we chatting they're busy saving money to go on another massive adventure!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc61AxCQQR4
I bumped into this family driving the length West Africa, one of the toughest routes in the world! They had an amazing time, and last we chatting they're busy saving money to go on another massive adventure!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc61AxCQQR4
You can have nice weather and nice food for an affordable price tag outside of the US. you're probably leaving something out of the description of what makes you happy
I did all that minus the video games while travelling in south and south east asia for a year and a half, and with a $20 daily budget. Gave up some of the comforts of western standard of living and got a whole lot of new friends and experiences.
I have kids now and when they are old enough to move out, I’ll quit my job (programmer, and I love it) and get back out there because “The mountains are calling and I must go”
I have kids now and when they are old enough to move out, I’ll quit my job (programmer, and I love it) and get back out there because “The mountains are calling and I must go”
I'm curious what comforts you gave up. For me, I'd at minimum want a quiet, private room with AC if it's over 80F, and a 'non public' bathroom with a lockable door. I know that probably rules out a $20/d budget.
I also preferred private rooms, but AC was not an option usually since I avoided hotels completely and stayed in cheap guesthouses available almost everywhere. Sometimes I got a fan, sometimes there were no electricity at all in the room.
Hostels usually had AC but those would be in the big cities, and I’d never stay too long because they are expensive. Hell, I could have my own bamboo hut with veranda, a hammock and the ocean breeze in a country side with the price of a hostel bunk bed in a big city or a tourist hot spot!
Private bathrooms I gave up on when I realized those attract many bugs I did not want to share my room with. Actually I could say you end up sharing the bathroom one way or the other. Common ones are fine as long as they can be locked and are cleaned regularly. Before I checked in at any place, I’d check the common bathrooms to make sure if I should…
I would pretty quickly get adjusted to the local way of avoiding heat, which is to get up really early in the morning, rest in the afternoon and then go back out during the evening.
Another pro tip that requires some planning ahead and available time is to go to the “south” during winter and to the “north” or the mountains during the hot summers.
Private bathrooms I gave up on when I realized those attract many bugs I did not want to share my room with. Actually I could say you end up sharing the bathroom one way or the other. Common ones are fine as long as they can be locked and are cleaned regularly. Before I checked in at any place, I’d check the common bathrooms to make sure if I should…
I would pretty quickly get adjusted to the local way of avoiding heat, which is to get up really early in the morning, rest in the afternoon and then go back out during the evening.
Another pro tip that requires some planning ahead and available time is to go to the “south” during winter and to the “north” or the mountains during the hot summers.
One more thing I gotta add is that you will get used to any situation soon enough, especially if the benefits outweigh the discomforts. I did.
You know how the time flies like every day seems long and before you know it a year has passed? It’s the opposite way out there. The days go by fast and after a couple of months and a couple of countries I felt like I’ve been traveling for some years already.
When I was a child, it seemed like time stretched on forever. Summers were luxuriously long. As an adult in his late 30's? Every day goes by fast; Good or bad. Everything feels like it's next shortest unit of time. Hours feel like minutes, Days like hours, Weeks like days, and so forth. I'm kind of hoping that time slows down a bit when I retire (mid 40's), but I doubt it.
It won't. Every day fits too easily in your head, a discrete block of time that whizzes by. Unless every day you can get really, really deeply into something that suspends time for you.
Yeah my main thing is I refuse to sweat indoors. I think maybe AC will become more of a requirement as wet bulb temps go up in the global south over time. When you say hotels are expensive, how expensive are we talking? I'm in my late 30s, I'm willing to pay for some comforts.
I don't mind 'common' bathrooms, but I despise public restrooms with stalls. I want a clean, lockable bathroom / shower.
I don't mind 'common' bathrooms, but I despise public restrooms with stalls. I want a clean, lockable bathroom / shower.
Even American bodies can get used to be inside at 80F :-)
I keep my place on 78F but I constantly have a fan on. 78F with a fan is at the edge of what I'd consider comfortable. I refuse to sweat indoors.
Then travel to colder climates, there is a common belief that the nice areas are hot and sunny. That's not my preference, I like it cold and not have to worry about sunburns and heat and so on.
I was exactly like this for a while, until I realized my happiness does not have to depend on anything. Like what the sibling comment says, if you keep an open mind and try things out, you'd be surprised to see what can help you achieve sustainable happiness.
It may be worth keeping an open mind. Perhaps there are many other things which would make you happy if you tried them, and they may not cost a lot.
Lately I'm finding joy in all sorts of pursuits that I had never thought about. A willingness to try new things was necessary.
Lately I'm finding joy in all sorts of pursuits that I had never thought about. A willingness to try new things was necessary.
I'm doing exactly that. Except for traveling. Always hated that. And climate is good enough for me where I always lived. And take out food is often declicious.
So yeah. I'm just sitting at home, playing video games and ordering takeouts. Pricetag is not that high.
And that's the current best answer to "What makes me happy?"
So yeah. I'm just sitting at home, playing video games and ordering takeouts. Pricetag is not that high.
And that's the current best answer to "What makes me happy?"
I'm in a similar boat. Not outrageously rich, but rich enough that I won't spend it all before I die. Work in a highly lucrative industry, which bores the hell out of me. I took a couple years off. Built a house, moved in, then.... I was definitely hit with a lack of purpose. I'm back to work now at old career trying to figure out "what to do with my life" again.
There was a Catch-22 for me, in that "working" at any organization for any normal sized paycheck just seemed ridiculous if it didn't 100% hit on all the "passion" buttons. And honestly, no organization will be free of BS that makes work work. So making that tradeoff became REALLY hard.
So I decided that if I was going to work, I should just make a ton of money. At least the bank account fills while I search for the next thing.
There was a Catch-22 for me, in that "working" at any organization for any normal sized paycheck just seemed ridiculous if it didn't 100% hit on all the "passion" buttons. And honestly, no organization will be free of BS that makes work work. So making that tradeoff became REALLY hard.
So I decided that if I was going to work, I should just make a ton of money. At least the bank account fills while I search for the next thing.
Purpose is so key! While I agree to the work life balance…. I have spent a good 6 years completely consumed 100% into work just coz I felt it was my calling! In the bargain lost out heavily in my personal life. But not sure if I regret that…. After that there was such a huge burnout, I’m still recuperating…. Is purpose overrated? Or does it put one off balance?
I am starting to believe "purpose" as related to work is mostly a giant con. Sometimes we run it on ourselves. But we are all dust in the end. Does the project or business that we are working on really matter?
> Does the project or business that we are working on really matter?
Probably not in the grand scheme of things.
But it's fun to push yourself to your limits with other smart people.
Probably not in the grand scheme of things.
But it's fun to push yourself to your limits with other smart people.
Today, I’ve changed my career drastically - moved frm industry to academia - taking one day at a time. And still unsure whr I’m headed. My earlier project-mgmt self would be agast to know the me today -
Good luck, I'm trying to go the other way.
I'm basically the opposite of you.
There is a pile of merge requests I need to review when I get time. And the reason I want to review X, Y, and Z is because I personally desire to see improvements X, Y, and Z to the niche FOSS software I maintain.
Funny thing is, we are on a forum named "Hacker News" and I'd speculate that I'm the outlier and yours is the common case.
There is a pile of merge requests I need to review when I get time. And the reason I want to review X, Y, and Z is because I personally desire to see improvements X, Y, and Z to the niche FOSS software I maintain.
Funny thing is, we are on a forum named "Hacker News" and I'd speculate that I'm the outlier and yours is the common case.
There's a difference between working on your own stuff vs. working purely to trade time for money as an employee. Sometimes you can have both I guess , but I think it's the exception, not the norm.
I'm in a similar situation; the company I worked at was acquired a couple of months before the pandemic. The sale gave me enough money to retire a few times over, 2 days after my 30th birthday. I initially went through a long period of guilt. I've tried angel investing, impact investing, doing hackathons, applying to fellowships and launching side-projects. I've realized that a lot of the skills I've gained in the last decade were built around generating money. Yet my happiness and fulfillment skills were under-developed.
The most absurd part of it all is how little happiness I got from all that money. Meaning and purpose are things you have to make up. If you can find happiness in a day job, in some ways you're better off than the aimless millionaire.
I'm lucky that I have a huge passion in music and have been focusing more on that lately. It's definitely weird for me to work on something without a direct financial incentive. Yet there are many people in the world, rich or poor, living for purposes outside money.
I haven't really had too many people to talk about this with. But it feels good to share a bit. DMs open to those in similar boats
The most absurd part of it all is how little happiness I got from all that money. Meaning and purpose are things you have to make up. If you can find happiness in a day job, in some ways you're better off than the aimless millionaire.
I'm lucky that I have a huge passion in music and have been focusing more on that lately. It's definitely weird for me to work on something without a direct financial incentive. Yet there are many people in the world, rich or poor, living for purposes outside money.
I haven't really had too many people to talk about this with. But it feels good to share a bit. DMs open to those in similar boats
I’d love to hear what you’ve been doing with music. I got a Minilogue XD and a couple
Other smaller synths. My email is the crazy looking link in my profile, would love to hear from you.
I noticed the same thing when I stopped working ft. I was surprisingly bad at predicting my own interests and what would make me feel happy day to day.
It was almost as if I didn’t know myself, and in retrospect I suppose that was true.
After several years I’ve started working again but in my own way (roci.dev). I’m a lot better at predicting what activities will feel good, and managing my time so that end of day/week I feel deeply good about how it was spent.
Strongly recommend ^ approach of “rolling with it” for several years and trying not to pass judgement with you conscious mind on where your unconscious is taking you.
Best of luck getting to know yourself.
It was almost as if I didn’t know myself, and in retrospect I suppose that was true.
After several years I’ve started working again but in my own way (roci.dev). I’m a lot better at predicting what activities will feel good, and managing my time so that end of day/week I feel deeply good about how it was spent.
Strongly recommend ^ approach of “rolling with it” for several years and trying not to pass judgement with you conscious mind on where your unconscious is taking you.
Best of luck getting to know yourself.
Having done it now for a year, it sounds like you're pretty happy with how it's going. Are you satisfied with what you've achieved? Or is part of the mindset shift that you're just not thinking in those terms any more and are looking only to the day to day?
In my working life, I've only ever taken about a month off at a time, but every time I've taken a longer break like that, I end up ultimately feeling dissatisfied with myself. I go into it with what a I think is a reasonable list of chores/projects that I want to make progress on, but ended up just puttering around— paradoxically, I get a lot more done when I have short bursts of time and have to force myself to bite off a manageable chunk and actually see it through.
I've heard people argue that a few weeks just isn't long enough to trigger productive restlessness, and that's why a sabbatical is more like 6-12 months. But this is what I worry about for myself if I were ever in a position to retire young.
In my working life, I've only ever taken about a month off at a time, but every time I've taken a longer break like that, I end up ultimately feeling dissatisfied with myself. I go into it with what a I think is a reasonable list of chores/projects that I want to make progress on, but ended up just puttering around— paradoxically, I get a lot more done when I have short bursts of time and have to force myself to bite off a manageable chunk and actually see it through.
I've heard people argue that a few weeks just isn't long enough to trigger productive restlessness, and that's why a sabbatical is more like 6-12 months. But this is what I worry about for myself if I were ever in a position to retire young.
I'm quite happy with the outcome so far. Though, my aims are humble. My intention for this period of life (however long it lasts) is to live 'organically' and observe the results. My primary observation is that I'm happy consistently - something that was inconceivable with my old style of X to Y to Z goal planning.
In your second paragraph you mention trying to be as productive as possible during your time off. Seems like you'd be setting yourself up for disappointment there. If you instead approach that time off with 'whatever happens, happens' approach you'll be more forgiving of yourself and may actually be able to relax so you can be more productive later.
The theory I'm exploring is that happiness is healthy. By living happily, perhaps I am repairing whatever damage I did when I was so intensely on the career grind (it was rewarding but, ultimately unhealthy in a burnout way). And, by doing that repair, perhaps I'll be better suited to be even more productive.
In your second paragraph you mention trying to be as productive as possible during your time off. Seems like you'd be setting yourself up for disappointment there. If you instead approach that time off with 'whatever happens, happens' approach you'll be more forgiving of yourself and may actually be able to relax so you can be more productive later.
The theory I'm exploring is that happiness is healthy. By living happily, perhaps I am repairing whatever damage I did when I was so intensely on the career grind (it was rewarding but, ultimately unhealthy in a burnout way). And, by doing that repair, perhaps I'll be better suited to be even more productive.
Do you mean more productive so that you can return to work of some kind and accomplish more than you have in the past? If so, then even if your theory proves to be true, wouldn't you rather continue living happily instead of using that period of happiness to fuel more productivity even if it doesn't make you as happy?
Or by more productive, are you referring more to building more dams rather than working more?
Or by more productive, are you referring more to building more dams rather than working more?
My main worry is that I won’t save enough for hard times in the future if I’m living organically without much future planning. Have you ever had fears like that?
Ultimately, it depends on the type of risks you’re trying to mitigate and the type of skills you have to earn again.
If you’re a software developer (or a plumber or a CPA etc) you can always get back into the workforce after some amount of time. If it takes you 1 year to leetcode and find a new job, you just need to keep 1 year of expenses as cash on hand.
Tail risk is a different story, but you can spend your whole life working and not save enough to handle all tail end scenarios
If you’re a software developer (or a plumber or a CPA etc) you can always get back into the workforce after some amount of time. If it takes you 1 year to leetcode and find a new job, you just need to keep 1 year of expenses as cash on hand.
Tail risk is a different story, but you can spend your whole life working and not save enough to handle all tail end scenarios
I am a similar way and at least for me I feel somewhat programmed to be needing to do something or maybe even feeling the need for someone to tell me to do something so that I can feel like I am creating value(not at all saying you are like this, just a personal account). I am in a position where I can be unemployed with little consequence, but I'm afraid that the free time will just go to waste. And I think on a larger scale that is a big problem.
For me, it's not even the "larger scale"— I'm well aware that the current economic structure allows for a small wealthy leisure class who wile away the days indulging themselves in socializing and consumption activities. And I know there are many who would love nothing more than to join that class and just travel, party, play video games, whatever.
I just... yeah, don't find it satisfying when I've had small tastes of that life. I like to be able to look back at the journey and see how it led to growth in my skills and achievements I'm proud of showing off.
I just... yeah, don't find it satisfying when I've had small tastes of that life. I like to be able to look back at the journey and see how it led to growth in my skills and achievements I'm proud of showing off.
Tbe feeling of permanence changes things a bit. It's not a vacation from something but a new state of being.
You can then pick up new hobbies, or just return to old hobbies with renewed enthusiasm. You can do things that matter even if they're of no economic interest. You can hone skills that aren't career-related.
I think that it also requires a shift in values.
You can then pick up new hobbies, or just return to old hobbies with renewed enthusiasm. You can do things that matter even if they're of no economic interest. You can hone skills that aren't career-related.
I think that it also requires a shift in values.
This is EXACTLY why I am so hell bent on retiring early. I recognized this aspect of my being very early on in life. My interests come and go, but they are strong. I am capable of achieving anything when my mind is truly interested in it but unfortunately my mind grows bored with things eventually. In retirement, I would just pursue whatever interests me at the time! Whether its software, hardware, automotive, or just reading.
That freedom is truly priceless.
I only wish I too were 2nd at a unicorn startup ;)
That freedom is truly priceless.
I only wish I too were 2nd at a unicorn startup ;)
You realize that X equals „work until you have enough to retire“, Y is „retire and find hobby“ and Z equals „pursue hobby“?
I think this is a great comment. It's possible to overthink things (making charts with arrows, etc.) In the end, just going with the flow works out better than having a plan. YMMV. If you really want to do something, you'll keep thinking of it.
I've been retired 4 years now. I wrote one novel ("Inventing the Future", on sale at Amazon!) and finished the first draft of another. But I didn't have any plan for this when I retired. I just started doing it and it felt right.
I've been retired 4 years now. I wrote one novel ("Inventing the Future", on sale at Amazon!) and finished the first draft of another. But I didn't have any plan for this when I retired. I just started doing it and it felt right.
I think the prospect of being very financially stable changes the equation in such considerable ways. To me, the difficulty in finding 'happiness'(not sure if that is totally a thing) or purpose becomes an interesting endeavor AFTER you take the work/job away. I think after you take away the job(in favorable circumstances), you have the 'what now?' moment, and thats not an easy thing to answer.
For most people that really isn't a viable option currently.
For most people that really isn't a viable option currently.
How do you "live amongst the Amish"? Sounds like you're contributing to their community in some ways ie. dam building. Did you buy any land from them or a home? Just renting? I always assumed that they're an insular community. Want to get down there sometime and try the food. PA Dutch food looks so good.
We are lucky enough to live in an area with a strong amish presence. Their food is amazing, going out to eat it is like eating a wonderful home cooked meal. Amish BBQ, while not as flashy as other styes, is also definitely worth a try. Amish burnt butter noodles are sublime and are my overall favorite... that and the fritters and pies.
Sounds interesting!
I live around them, interact with them at their stores, etc. It's a rural area so people talk a lot more whenever you encounter them. The food is tasty, though it goes against what I consider healthy so I try not to eat too much of it.
They are not that much insular and are, at least to outsiders, really nice people.
I'm in a similar situation, and I describe it as every day being Saturday. I don't want to waste my Saturday doing nothing, and I have a few obligations, but by and large, my days have no structure.
I end up doing a bit of everything. I garden, cook, play in the garage, ride my motorcycle, go camping etc. Every once in a while, something grabs me and I'm free to pursue it.
A few years ago, I joked that the American dream sucks, and that the Victorian dream is where it's at. I want to have enough free time to be a gentleman scientist, join societies and make art. Now I realise it's not that silly.
I end up doing a bit of everything. I garden, cook, play in the garage, ride my motorcycle, go camping etc. Every once in a while, something grabs me and I'm free to pursue it.
A few years ago, I joked that the American dream sucks, and that the Victorian dream is where it's at. I want to have enough free time to be a gentleman scientist, join societies and make art. Now I realise it's not that silly.
What are you doing on HN?
As someone in a similar boat (6 months into not working at this point), I still love hacker news. I am driven by curiosity above most else and this is the best forum on the internet by that measure (as far as I am aware).
This is myself as well. HN is a kind of a National Geographic of technology to me.
i've likely asked myself that question many times since the inception of HN
Reading and commenting, apparently.
I think I'm semi-retired at this point. It's taken over a year to get to the "What will make me happy?" stage. Initially I kept thinking that I needed to spend my downtime learning new technologies that would be marketable. Now I'm starting to let go of that idea and it's feeling better, though I'm still a bit afraid that maybe I'll fall through the cracks and not be employable again - but that's probably fine at this point in my life. There are a lot of ways you have to change your thinking as you transition to a retired or just less-work-focused state. Our culture causes us to invest a lot of our identity in work and I'm finding that it's taking a while to shift my thinking.
A comment like this is privilege in a nutshell.
Money to a certain point essentially buys the ability to be free and happy, and that’s why most people are “in the grind” so-to-speak. Being able to even think about making the mindset shift you describe is impossible for most people in the country let alone the world.
The lifestyle you describe is out of reach for the median American making $40-60k a year with a modest amount of credit card debt and kids to feed.
I have to wonder how you pay for your shelter, food, and health insurance? Is that from your unicorn startup money, or is that from your income from building dams?
For most Americans, quitting their corporate job means spending something like 2-4x more for healthcare. It means exhausting a very short financial runway.
Most Americans are one or two serious medical emergencies away from full blown bankruptcy.
That’s the irony here: folks advocating for exotic life experiences like this don’t seem to realize that the bulk of the world isn’t living life in a materialistic and career-focused way by choice. We’ve all just got bills to pay and want to be able to afford to go to the doctor or get our kids education or buy gas to get to Grandma’s house.
If you throw me a modest $5 million lump sum I’ll join you on your shift in mindset. But until then, sorry, I’ve got to get back to work.
Money to a certain point essentially buys the ability to be free and happy, and that’s why most people are “in the grind” so-to-speak. Being able to even think about making the mindset shift you describe is impossible for most people in the country let alone the world.
The lifestyle you describe is out of reach for the median American making $40-60k a year with a modest amount of credit card debt and kids to feed.
I have to wonder how you pay for your shelter, food, and health insurance? Is that from your unicorn startup money, or is that from your income from building dams?
For most Americans, quitting their corporate job means spending something like 2-4x more for healthcare. It means exhausting a very short financial runway.
Most Americans are one or two serious medical emergencies away from full blown bankruptcy.
That’s the irony here: folks advocating for exotic life experiences like this don’t seem to realize that the bulk of the world isn’t living life in a materialistic and career-focused way by choice. We’ve all just got bills to pay and want to be able to afford to go to the doctor or get our kids education or buy gas to get to Grandma’s house.
If you throw me a modest $5 million lump sum I’ll join you on your shift in mindset. But until then, sorry, I’ve got to get back to work.
For those that this lifestyle appeals to, it is possible in America to engineer your life so that it happens. Sure the median American is no where close to financial independence, but financial independence is attainable for most Americans given a couple decades of work if they are willing to change their definition of "enough."
Personally, I reduced my target to a mere fraction of the $5 million you mentioned.
Finally, I completely agree that this is privilege, but without any negative judgement therein. Privilege is a thing we should be trying to give to more and more people.
Personally, I reduced my target to a mere fraction of the $5 million you mentioned.
Finally, I completely agree that this is privilege, but without any negative judgement therein. Privilege is a thing we should be trying to give to more and more people.
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> the median American making $40-60k a year with a modest amount of credit card debt and kids to feed.
Ah, of course. Poor unfortunate Americans. How could you possibly feed your children on just $40k a year. No doubt that explains the emaciated appearance of the average American child.
> A comment like this is privilege in a nutshell.
Copy that out on the blackboard 100 times until the lesson sinks in.
Ah, of course. Poor unfortunate Americans. How could you possibly feed your children on just $40k a year. No doubt that explains the emaciated appearance of the average American child.
> A comment like this is privilege in a nutshell.
Copy that out on the blackboard 100 times until the lesson sinks in.
That's why I work. Financial stability and being able to provide for my family would make me happy, at least happier than being poor.
Things are expensive. Happiness of your wife and kids are even more expensive.
Things are expensive. Happiness of your wife and kids are even more expensive.
> As an example, turns out I really enjoy building dams.
Sorry to go off on a tangent, but this really has me wondering. How big of a dam are we talking here? Is it actually legal to build a private dam?
Sorry to go off on a tangent, but this really has me wondering. How big of a dam are we talking here? Is it actually legal to build a private dam?
I owned a dam. Worst deal of my life, as it was regulated by the town, state, and feds.
Touching anything on it required permits from multiple agencies at each of the above.
Be careful doing ANYTHING with water, as that is regulated by feds, states, and ofen localities. Wetland regulations are extremely restrictive. And wetlands are often not wet! (Depending on where you live, state and local often try to "out green" each other by layering on even more restrictive regulations.)
Touching anything on it required permits from multiple agencies at each of the above.
Be careful doing ANYTHING with water, as that is regulated by feds, states, and ofen localities. Wetland regulations are extremely restrictive. And wetlands are often not wet! (Depending on where you live, state and local often try to "out green" each other by layering on even more restrictive regulations.)
"Is it actually legal to build a private dam? "
Not likely. Unless it is a very small stream.
Not likely. Unless it is a very small stream.
You live "among" them meaning "surrounded by" or "as a member of" their community?
Building dams, eh? Are you somehow inspired by this little guy: https://web.mit.edu/graphicidentity/tim-the-beaver.html
Are you rich/have no kids? Because most people probably cannot relate to the life you're living right now.
"I was 2nd employee at a unicorn startup"
They're rich.
They're rich.
I don't think the Amish are particularly rich or childless?
This is where assumptions can get you in trouble.
The Amish are extremely business savvy, shrewd negotiators, and have no issues being active members in the economy. They also own vast tracts of very valuable land (especially in Lancaster, PA). Combine that with being frugal and austere, and it's a recipe for wealth.
For childcare, their community focus let's them share the burden amongst the larger group. Additionally, children are not nearly as coddled and are expected to contribute to the family's work, and help co-parent their siblings.
Compare this to the average nuclear family: underpaid, barely any savings, most likely rents, and lucky if they have even one family member nearby that can share the childcare burden.
The Amish are extremely business savvy, shrewd negotiators, and have no issues being active members in the economy. They also own vast tracts of very valuable land (especially in Lancaster, PA). Combine that with being frugal and austere, and it's a recipe for wealth.
For childcare, their community focus let's them share the burden amongst the larger group. Additionally, children are not nearly as coddled and are expected to contribute to the family's work, and help co-parent their siblings.
Compare this to the average nuclear family: underpaid, barely any savings, most likely rents, and lucky if they have even one family member nearby that can share the childcare burden.
Lancaster, PA resident here. Many, possibly most, Amish are not farmers anymore. To your point, a lot own businesses like lawn care, grocery and hardware stores, tourist traps, and construction companies.
Since childcare is mentioned, I would be remiss if I did not point out that the Amish have a disproportionate rate of child sex abuse. Offenders often get off because the Amish community pressures victims not to testify. Victims are sent to re-education centers. It is pretty gross what goes on in plain (pardon the pun) sight. But they bring in tourist dollars. Most Amish are lovely of course, but their lifestyle has a very dark side.
Since childcare is mentioned, I would be remiss if I did not point out that the Amish have a disproportionate rate of child sex abuse. Offenders often get off because the Amish community pressures victims not to testify. Victims are sent to re-education centers. It is pretty gross what goes on in plain (pardon the pun) sight. But they bring in tourist dollars. Most Amish are lovely of course, but their lifestyle has a very dark side.
Amish are pretty much like everyone else though, there are dirt-poor Amish communities out there to counter-balance your land-and-small-business-rich ones.
Fair, though the childcare aspect still holds merit.
I will say this, if there is one thing I can do for my child (other than learning proper money management), when the time is right I will help them with the down payment on a home. Holy crap it's so much more important than renting. It seems like a hassle, I know, but building generational equity gives you such a leg up in the world.
In many areas, the amount you pay in rent isn't much different than what you pay in the ITI parts of PITI (principal, interest, taxes, insurance) plus the maintenance costs. On top of that, the difference between mortgage + maintenance and rent could be invested and growing over time.
There's no guarantee that buying a house will leave you richer than if you'd rented during the same time. Check out this calculator to explore your personal situation more closely, and examine the assumptions you make about growing wealth.
I know from personal experience, owning my first home, that I almost certainly would've been better off renting over that time period and investing the down payment and higher monthly payments than I ended up with having that house and equity. Sometimes you get lucky - and house prices go up and you sell at the right time (assuming you switch back to rent OR manage to then buy in a market where prices are lower than average.)
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/upshot/buy-rent-cal...
There's no guarantee that buying a house will leave you richer than if you'd rented during the same time. Check out this calculator to explore your personal situation more closely, and examine the assumptions you make about growing wealth.
I know from personal experience, owning my first home, that I almost certainly would've been better off renting over that time period and investing the down payment and higher monthly payments than I ended up with having that house and equity. Sometimes you get lucky - and house prices go up and you sell at the right time (assuming you switch back to rent OR manage to then buy in a market where prices are lower than average.)
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/upshot/buy-rent-cal...
I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you. A house is a form of forced savings, which is why it works so well for people, but you absolutely can build up wealth while renting.
It is for sure possible, no argument, but the actuality of it is relatively small, while the renters are putting in equity into someone else's pocket =/ Your "rent", as it were, goes towards something (even if a large portion of it is interest.. and extra payment a year towards the principal goes a long way).
Although you replied that you did not read the article first, I think you still do make a valid point. Here is an excerpt from the article:
> Of course, some lucky people already know exactly what they’re retiring to, answers firmly in hand.
> Examples:
> It’s been a lifelong dream of mine to quit my current career and take something lower paying and more meaningful: teaching or contributing to a non-profit.
> I’m going to do a lot of parenting. My kids can easily eat 14 hours a day, every day.
The _second_ example here already calls out that it's going to be common to do parenting 14 hours a day if people retire early. For someone who has kids, it's pretty unlikely to be able to roll with life and see what comes up. It just isn't possible, with or without a job, being financially independent or not. And whether we like it or not, a large percentage of the population above 40 do have kids.
This is purely my opinion, but I'm actually not sure that, for a child past 2 years old or so, if it's a good idea for a parent to be with their child 24/7. I think there's a lot of value in learning social interactions with other children in a daycare or preschool. I did this exact thing for 3 years and am transitioning the child to preschool at 3 years old, and it has been difficult.
On top of it all, let's say your kids are school age, somewhere between 3 to 16. Let's say they go to school during the day, and you have free time during the day. There is another discussion to be had about your kids' mentality if they grow up with parents who don't need to work. Sure, maybe in the near future, in this next generation, we'll enter a society where work is unnecessary and everyone lives off of UBI, and maybe the discussion is moot. But assuming that won't be the case, would you want your children to grow up with the impression that when they grow up into adults there's no need to do any productive work, or have parents as role models who contribute meaningfully to society?
Maybe I haven't thought it through, maybe I'm just not smart enough. I'm at a point in life where I could feasibly "lean FIRE" if I really want to, but for the sake of my child I'd rather continue to work. Which then leads to answering this post, my FI and retirement almost isn't about me, it's about my child/children. Or maybe that just means I'm that guy who said "I'm going to do a lot of parenting" then.
> Of course, some lucky people already know exactly what they’re retiring to, answers firmly in hand.
> Examples:
> It’s been a lifelong dream of mine to quit my current career and take something lower paying and more meaningful: teaching or contributing to a non-profit.
> I’m going to do a lot of parenting. My kids can easily eat 14 hours a day, every day.
The _second_ example here already calls out that it's going to be common to do parenting 14 hours a day if people retire early. For someone who has kids, it's pretty unlikely to be able to roll with life and see what comes up. It just isn't possible, with or without a job, being financially independent or not. And whether we like it or not, a large percentage of the population above 40 do have kids.
This is purely my opinion, but I'm actually not sure that, for a child past 2 years old or so, if it's a good idea for a parent to be with their child 24/7. I think there's a lot of value in learning social interactions with other children in a daycare or preschool. I did this exact thing for 3 years and am transitioning the child to preschool at 3 years old, and it has been difficult.
On top of it all, let's say your kids are school age, somewhere between 3 to 16. Let's say they go to school during the day, and you have free time during the day. There is another discussion to be had about your kids' mentality if they grow up with parents who don't need to work. Sure, maybe in the near future, in this next generation, we'll enter a society where work is unnecessary and everyone lives off of UBI, and maybe the discussion is moot. But assuming that won't be the case, would you want your children to grow up with the impression that when they grow up into adults there's no need to do any productive work, or have parents as role models who contribute meaningfully to society?
Maybe I haven't thought it through, maybe I'm just not smart enough. I'm at a point in life where I could feasibly "lean FIRE" if I really want to, but for the sake of my child I'd rather continue to work. Which then leads to answering this post, my FI and retirement almost isn't about me, it's about my child/children. Or maybe that just means I'm that guy who said "I'm going to do a lot of parenting" then.
Edit: Sorry, I did not read the article before reading your comment. The point was "what are you retiring to?" I understand what you're saying now.
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We were built to work, to have purpose. Having meaningful work is key - this is what the FIRE movement misunderstood.
By meaningful, I mean to someone other your yourself or your extended self (family). Our purpose is to serve others, not ourselves.
By meaningful, I mean to someone other your yourself or your extended self (family). Our purpose is to serve others, not ourselves.
I would disagree with "We were built for work".
Evolutionary, we were built to survive until reproduction age and a bit longer after that, to care for offsprings.
I think people who misunderstand the FIRE movement think that early retirees don't want to do meaningful work, like volunteering, painting, making music, etc. I think that is the point of FIRE - to be able to do the most meaningful things you can think of.
I think people who misunderstand the FIRE movement think that early retirees don't want to do meaningful work, like volunteering, painting, making music, etc. I think that is the point of FIRE - to be able to do the most meaningful things you can think of.
I definitely wasn't built to have a purpose.
I took a 3-year early retirement and didn't do anything for anyone but myself and loved every minute of it. I watched TV, went to the movies, read books, went to the gym, rode my bicycle, and that was it. Had no need for anything else.
If I could do that without having a job, I'd happily do it for the rest of my life with no problems.
I took a 3-year early retirement and didn't do anything for anyone but myself and loved every minute of it. I watched TV, went to the movies, read books, went to the gym, rode my bicycle, and that was it. Had no need for anything else.
If I could do that without having a job, I'd happily do it for the rest of my life with no problems.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'd be happy doing that for quite some time. I guess it might get old after a while, though, which is why I would probably do a semi-retirement bit for a while.
Isn't the post you're replying to evidence against this? They have financial independence, and now they are finding meaningful work. I agree that we need a sense of purpose for happiness/mental health, but why does that have to be "working for the man?".
Why is "working for the man" so bad when it gives purpose in your life?
The article showed how unsatisfied his wife was when she felt as "not going anywhere", I think she was trying to say that she does not feel any sort of progress or growth on any level.
As it is torture to keep someone in a room with no stimulation, it is the same with repetition and no change or progress.
“Industry, thrift and self-control are not sought because they create wealth, but because they create character.” - Calvin Coolidge
We need this aspect for personal development.
Metaphor: https://m-g-h.medium.com/disneys-strategy-against-netflix-4d...
The article showed how unsatisfied his wife was when she felt as "not going anywhere", I think she was trying to say that she does not feel any sort of progress or growth on any level.
As it is torture to keep someone in a room with no stimulation, it is the same with repetition and no change or progress.
“Industry, thrift and self-control are not sought because they create wealth, but because they create character.” - Calvin Coolidge
We need this aspect for personal development.
Metaphor: https://m-g-h.medium.com/disneys-strategy-against-netflix-4d...
>she does not feel any sort of progress or growth on any level.
I think the flip side of this is that many people are so focused on progress and looking forward to the next goal line that they become unable to appreciate the moment and, ironically, happiness is always one more goal away. Recently, I’ve been reading books on Buddhism (specifically how it differs from many Western value systems) and it sheds some light on this. The same goes for the inability to be happy sans constant stimulation.
I think the flip side of this is that many people are so focused on progress and looking forward to the next goal line that they become unable to appreciate the moment and, ironically, happiness is always one more goal away. Recently, I’ve been reading books on Buddhism (specifically how it differs from many Western value systems) and it sheds some light on this. The same goes for the inability to be happy sans constant stimulation.
Any particular books you'd recommend?
The way of Zen by Alan Watts.
You can absolutely find people more qualified for book recommendations on the subject than me, but here are a few:
"Confession of a Buddhist Atheist" by Stephon Batchelor. Useful to me for understanding the cultural context of Buddhism.
Insight Meditation by Joseph Goldstein. I just find Goldstein's style the easiest to comprehend in a field that often comes across as frustratingly esoteric
Wherever You Go There You Are by Jon Kabat-Zinn. I thought this book is interesting because it draws parallels to Western authors, particularly Thoreau.
Sam Harris's "Waking Up" app may also be worth a listen. Besides the actual mindfulness practice, there are a lot of discussions on theory and he has conversations with a variety of people that come to the topic from different perspectives.
"Confession of a Buddhist Atheist" by Stephon Batchelor. Useful to me for understanding the cultural context of Buddhism.
Insight Meditation by Joseph Goldstein. I just find Goldstein's style the easiest to comprehend in a field that often comes across as frustratingly esoteric
Wherever You Go There You Are by Jon Kabat-Zinn. I thought this book is interesting because it draws parallels to Western authors, particularly Thoreau.
Sam Harris's "Waking Up" app may also be worth a listen. Besides the actual mindfulness practice, there are a lot of discussions on theory and he has conversations with a variety of people that come to the topic from different perspectives.
sure there are some people that get meaning from work, and who would have trouble finding meaning outside of work. But I can't agree that 'working for the man' and doing whatever you can do to get by is the best recipe for finding the most meaningful work for most people.
In some cases "working for the man" isn't bad and it does give people purpose, but in (imo)the majority of cases, it is bad because it prevents you from using your time to do something you actually find meaningful.
I think the few people who are able to find meaning in their jobs are either extremely lucky to have found what they want to do, had the opportunity to pursue it and succeed, and make a decent enough living doing it without the money aspect killing their joy - or they're the type of people who have just 'over-assimilated' to modern life and found a way to extract meaning from their work, but these people would probably be able to find at least as much meaning and happiness in something else if they grew up in a world where working wasn't expected to be almost your entire life.
In some cases "working for the man" isn't bad and it does give people purpose, but in (imo)the majority of cases, it is bad because it prevents you from using your time to do something you actually find meaningful.
I think the few people who are able to find meaning in their jobs are either extremely lucky to have found what they want to do, had the opportunity to pursue it and succeed, and make a decent enough living doing it without the money aspect killing their joy - or they're the type of people who have just 'over-assimilated' to modern life and found a way to extract meaning from their work, but these people would probably be able to find at least as much meaning and happiness in something else if they grew up in a world where working wasn't expected to be almost your entire life.
> why is "working for the man" so bad
I don't think it is necessarily bad, but that doesn't mean that there aren't other paths to fulfillment. They may not be for you, but they exist.
> it is the same with repetition and no change or progress.
If someone chooses to retire and immediately enter a vegetative state, that's really their fault.
I don't think it is necessarily bad, but that doesn't mean that there aren't other paths to fulfillment. They may not be for you, but they exist.
> it is the same with repetition and no change or progress.
If someone chooses to retire and immediately enter a vegetative state, that's really their fault.
Most FIRE people don't just stop working. They just stop working boring, 8-5's.
For example, I really want to open my own cidery. But doing so would be such a massive paycut that it wouldn't be worth pursuing right now, even though it's ultimately what I want to do.
So, I'm software engineering until I make enough to FIRE, after which I can pursue that dream.
For example, I really want to open my own cidery. But doing so would be such a massive paycut that it wouldn't be worth pursuing right now, even though it's ultimately what I want to do.
So, I'm software engineering until I make enough to FIRE, after which I can pursue that dream.
We weren't built, we just happen to have evolved. There is no higher purpose.
See, your life philosophy isn't universal.
See, your life philosophy isn't universal.
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>this is what the FIRE movement misunderstood.
Only if you take the narrowest view of what FIRE is. There's a reason the largest subreddit for it is called r/financialindependence. It's not about retiring as early as possible. It's not having to work to survive. It's choosing to work on things which are intrinsically meaningful, as much or as little as you like. I don't think anyone in the FIRE movement would tell you it's wise to retire to a beach and sip mojitos all day.
Only if you take the narrowest view of what FIRE is. There's a reason the largest subreddit for it is called r/financialindependence. It's not about retiring as early as possible. It's not having to work to survive. It's choosing to work on things which are intrinsically meaningful, as much or as little as you like. I don't think anyone in the FIRE movement would tell you it's wise to retire to a beach and sip mojitos all day.
It seems a lot of people downvoting and replying to this thread did not read the entire article - as if I offended a cult. The author reaches a similar conclusion.
The "freedom" and "F the man" movements (crypto, 4HWW, FIRE, MLM, Kiyosaki, etc.) all seem to share a similar narrative: Spend your most productive years in retirement while feeding off from other's labor - a somehow irresponsible worldview.
The "freedom" and "F the man" movements (crypto, 4HWW, FIRE, MLM, Kiyosaki, etc.) all seem to share a similar narrative: Spend your most productive years in retirement while feeding off from other's labor - a somehow irresponsible worldview.
I was built to work a lottle bit everyday as part of a loving tribe, with a wide variety of skills and a direct experience of the fruits of my labor. Get me that and work becomes a blessing.
It all depends on what the definition of work here is, right(there is the capitalistic sense, or the purely physical/mental expenditure of energy)? I don't think we really know what we were built for, if anything...
The beauty is that one human can spend 70 years meditating and find purpose in that and another human can build a rocket ship and go to space and find purpose in that...and then you have everything in between and outside!
The beauty is that one human can spend 70 years meditating and find purpose in that and another human can build a rocket ship and go to space and find purpose in that...and then you have everything in between and outside!
Having meaning, yes.
Meaningful WORK? Not necessarily.
Meaningful WORK? Not necessarily.
This person also posted an amazing, unvarnished update recently (about 5-6 years later): https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-u...
The conclusion came to me is that extreme working and extreme no-working are both bad in the long run. All you need is a work-family-life balance.
I am also glad that the author now opens the door for getting married and even having a kid.
Work, spouse, kids, the traditional way of life have been explored and chosen by human being for at least thousands of years. The psychological / economic needs for living with a family do not go away just because you "decide" you don't need them. There are people live alone, but most of them are not happy, for most of the time.
When you are young, you may like to wonder why do I have to live a life like my parents? When you get older, you will slowly or quickly realize that you are just a regular human being like everybody else.
I am also glad that the author now opens the door for getting married and even having a kid.
Work, spouse, kids, the traditional way of life have been explored and chosen by human being for at least thousands of years. The psychological / economic needs for living with a family do not go away just because you "decide" you don't need them. There are people live alone, but most of them are not happy, for most of the time.
When you are young, you may like to wonder why do I have to live a life like my parents? When you get older, you will slowly or quickly realize that you are just a regular human being like everybody else.
What's interesting is the radical change over the past century, from a life of pure leisure being the mark of the aristocratic upper class to the lumpenproletariat. I love how Downton Abbey conveys this now alien concept to us early on by having the Dowager Countess ask "what is a 'weekend'?". The perfect modern counter-balance is the classic line from Office Space: "Well, you don't need a million dollars to do nothing, man. Take a look at my cousin. He's broke, don't do Shit!"
Work as purpose is a rather novel idea. Max Weber is really helpful here, and his seminal book, while published in 1905, seems more relevant than ever.
It used to be that you worked just as much as you needed to, to sustain yourself. So much so that raising wages would immediately result in people working less, as they could earn the same amount of money with less work.
Then at some point work became a "calling" and working as hard as possible viewed as respectable, desirable and commendable.
I still think this is insane. There are so many things to do, so many things to think/dream about. So many moments to just do nothing and stare at nature. I don't have time for work.
It used to be that you worked just as much as you needed to, to sustain yourself. So much so that raising wages would immediately result in people working less, as they could earn the same amount of money with less work.
Then at some point work became a "calling" and working as hard as possible viewed as respectable, desirable and commendable.
I still think this is insane. There are so many things to do, so many things to think/dream about. So many moments to just do nothing and stare at nature. I don't have time for work.
No. "Work as purpose" is an observation, maybe a new observation (not sure about that). It's not like that a scholar invented an idea, then the mass followed the idea and the idea changed everyone's life. No scholar has this kind of magic power.
Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is called a theory. In its nature, it's a framework of psychological conceptions based on observations. It's not like Maslow tells people what they need and the human beings on this planet start to pursue their needs based on Maslow's demand.
Yes. People want to work less, but people can't just wonder around without purpose for a long time. When you find your purpose, and start to spend your time on it, you are "working" on that purpose. Nobody says work = work for a boss.
Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is called a theory. In its nature, it's a framework of psychological conceptions based on observations. It's not like Maslow tells people what they need and the human beings on this planet start to pursue their needs based on Maslow's demand.
Yes. People want to work less, but people can't just wonder around without purpose for a long time. When you find your purpose, and start to spend your time on it, you are "working" on that purpose. Nobody says work = work for a boss.
It seems most people here mean "work" as in trading time/skill for money.
Everything in life is work, however. Building dams, building robots, creating music, raising kids, even playing games.
If you had enough finances to do anything (including nothing at all), I'm quite sure you'd quickly find yourself working anyway. I know I would.
I don't think it's some modern concept, it's just that life has no real purpose beyond survival and reproduction and we (as in our consciousness) need one otherwise the dread of existence will set in sooner or later.
Everything in life is work, however. Building dams, building robots, creating music, raising kids, even playing games.
If you had enough finances to do anything (including nothing at all), I'm quite sure you'd quickly find yourself working anyway. I know I would.
I don't think it's some modern concept, it's just that life has no real purpose beyond survival and reproduction and we (as in our consciousness) need one otherwise the dread of existence will set in sooner or later.
Raising kids isn't "work". It can be "a lot of work", sure, but that's a play on words...
You can make an analogy with the theory of the firm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_the_firm). More workers = more transaction costs. Twice as many people working half as many hours is more expensive; it's more efficient to employ people full time.
You'd expect this to crowd out many part-time jobs, jobs that aren't autonomous and low-context. That is, fast food cook, delivery driver, cleaning jobs etc. can be done part-time, but it's much harder to find shorter hours for white-collar work.
You'd expect this to crowd out many part-time jobs, jobs that aren't autonomous and low-context. That is, fast food cook, delivery driver, cleaning jobs etc. can be done part-time, but it's much harder to find shorter hours for white-collar work.
99PI had an anecdote about exactly that re: "Fordlândia," a rubber plantation in Brazil founded by Henry Ford. The local workers were a source of frustration because they would work one or two days, get paid, and then go home.
https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/fordlandia/
https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/fordlandia/
Work, spouse, kids, the traditional way of life have been explored and chosen by human being for at least thousands of years.
Vast majority of people did not “choose” all that throughout human history. There was zero alternative. They had to work to survive. If you want to make your argument you should only look at those who were born rich enough to not have to work.
Vast majority of people did not “choose” all that throughout human history. There was zero alternative. They had to work to survive. If you want to make your argument you should only look at those who were born rich enough to not have to work.
Of course people can choose not having spouse or kids. What do you mean there is zero alternative?
There are people born rich enough to not have to work, but do they live a happy life by not working all the way?
There are people born rich enough to not have to work, but do they live a happy life by not working all the way?
> Of course people can choose not having spouse or kids. What do you mean there is zero alternative?
You're doing that thing where you claim there's freedom of choice because you're ignoring the punishment inflicted on one choice.
The choice not to commit to a long-term relationship has had severe financial implications for centuries, especially if you are female. Until the invention of effective birth control, the choice to not have children meant giving up much of heterosexual sex.
While there are still problems, the ability to have healthy heterosexual sexual relationships without children is largely solved by modern birth control. But I would argue that the choice to not marry is still financially punished pretty severely, though perhaps not as much as in centuries past.
> There are people born rich enough to not have to work, but do they live a happy life by not working all the way?
You're asking this as if it's a rhetorical question, but it's not.
Being a rock climber, I've met plenty of Trustafarians who haven't done a lick of work in their lives, and are quite happy being skiing, surfing, or rock climbing bums.
The flipside, is when I've met people who tried not working and said they didn't like it, that has always been coupled with a profound lack of imagination or self-awareness. I distinctly remember a post on HN where someone took a week off and just played World of Warcraft for the entire week, and when he found this unfulfilling he concluded that not working wasn't for him. It should be no surprise that a lifestyle with no physical activity or direct human interaction is dissatisfying--this isn't proof that work is a necessary part of human happiness, it's just proof that giving up work without replacing it with something better doesn't succeed.
You're doing that thing where you claim there's freedom of choice because you're ignoring the punishment inflicted on one choice.
The choice not to commit to a long-term relationship has had severe financial implications for centuries, especially if you are female. Until the invention of effective birth control, the choice to not have children meant giving up much of heterosexual sex.
While there are still problems, the ability to have healthy heterosexual sexual relationships without children is largely solved by modern birth control. But I would argue that the choice to not marry is still financially punished pretty severely, though perhaps not as much as in centuries past.
> There are people born rich enough to not have to work, but do they live a happy life by not working all the way?
You're asking this as if it's a rhetorical question, but it's not.
Being a rock climber, I've met plenty of Trustafarians who haven't done a lick of work in their lives, and are quite happy being skiing, surfing, or rock climbing bums.
The flipside, is when I've met people who tried not working and said they didn't like it, that has always been coupled with a profound lack of imagination or self-awareness. I distinctly remember a post on HN where someone took a week off and just played World of Warcraft for the entire week, and when he found this unfulfilling he concluded that not working wasn't for him. It should be no surprise that a lifestyle with no physical activity or direct human interaction is dissatisfying--this isn't proof that work is a necessary part of human happiness, it's just proof that giving up work without replacing it with something better doesn't succeed.
The whole point is that even with material support, people still need to live with spouse and kids, and having a regular work (not necessarily work for someone else), to have a happy life.
Yes, modern technology and economy makes it easier for you to live alone but it does not change the basic human needs. Eventually you will need a spouse (same or opposite sex), not just for the money, not for the sex, but for the intimacy. And you will want to have kids when you get older. And as other comments pointed out, you want to live with people who really cares about you and you care about them, i.e. your family.
There is nothing magic about this. Just some people realize this earlier than others.
Yes, modern technology and economy makes it easier for you to live alone but it does not change the basic human needs. Eventually you will need a spouse (same or opposite sex), not just for the money, not for the sex, but for the intimacy. And you will want to have kids when you get older. And as other comments pointed out, you want to live with people who really cares about you and you care about them, i.e. your family.
There is nothing magic about this. Just some people realize this earlier than others.
> The whole point is that even with material support, people still need to live with spouse and kids, and having a regular work (not necessarily work for someone else), to have a happy life.
I understood that was your point. The problem is that your point simply isn't true, and you've provided absolutely no evidence of your belief beyond your patronizing "some people realize this earlier than others".
I do think that intimacy is a necessary part of happiness for most people, but there are many ways to find intimacy besides a spouse. As for kids: people who don't ever want kids and end up happy are common enough that I'd consider it common knowledge. There are all sorts of families out there, and many of them don't involve marriages or children.
I understood that was your point. The problem is that your point simply isn't true, and you've provided absolutely no evidence of your belief beyond your patronizing "some people realize this earlier than others".
I do think that intimacy is a necessary part of happiness for most people, but there are many ways to find intimacy besides a spouse. As for kids: people who don't ever want kids and end up happy are common enough that I'd consider it common knowledge. There are all sorts of families out there, and many of them don't involve marriages or children.
Lot of Buddhist monks would disagree with you pretty strongly. I think you are projecting your own needs/wants/desires and I get that, it's hard to get "out of your own head"... so to speak.
How is common needs of human being my own needs? How is Buddhist monks a good argument here? Whenever someone makes a general statement in psychology, it never excludes exceptions.
> the choice to not have children meant giving up much of heterosexual sex.
A bit personal maybe, but my wife has never been on birth control, we don't use protection, and have never had an "oops" baby. We had kids when we wanted kids, and haven't had kids when we didn't want kids.
It's really just... not that hard...
A bit personal maybe, but my wife has never been on birth control, we don't use protection, and have never had an "oops" baby. We had kids when we wanted kids, and haven't had kids when we didn't want kids.
It's really just... not that hard...
That's great for you, but as a societal discussion, that's about as useful as a story of how someone prayed and their mom's cancer went away.
You're taking a risk, in the context of a committed relationship where you've already had kids (so the stakes are lower than for a lot of people). So far that risk has worked out for you. That doesn't mean that is the right risk for everyone. It also doesn't mean that what you're doing is reliable for everyone. And it certainly doesn't mean that you're somehow more intelligent or competent than the people for whom similar methods of family planning have failed.
You're taking a risk, in the context of a committed relationship where you've already had kids (so the stakes are lower than for a lot of people). So far that risk has worked out for you. That doesn't mean that is the right risk for everyone. It also doesn't mean that what you're doing is reliable for everyone. And it certainly doesn't mean that you're somehow more intelligent or competent than the people for whom similar methods of family planning have failed.
> it certainly doesn't mean that you're somehow more intelligent or competent than the people for whom similar methods of family planning have failed.
I personally think it is a sign of modern hubris to assume that effective family planning didn't exist prior to 1960s and the advent of birth control.
All forms of family planning can fail. I don't think that's contentious.
Personally, the bigger issue I see among my peers is inability to conceive at all. They squandered their fertile years and are now going to enormous expense to start a family.
I personally think it is a sign of modern hubris to assume that effective family planning didn't exist prior to 1960s and the advent of birth control.
All forms of family planning can fail. I don't think that's contentious.
Personally, the bigger issue I see among my peers is inability to conceive at all. They squandered their fertile years and are now going to enormous expense to start a family.
> I personally think it is a sign of modern hubris to assume that effective family planning didn't exist prior to 1960s and the advent of birth control.
Effective toward what end?
Having kids when and only when you want them? Sure. "Only have sex when you want a kid" has always been an option.
Having kids when and only when you want them, and fulfilling your biological urges? Not so much.
I'm glad for you that your family planning worked for you and fulfilled your needs, but if you're going to extrapolate your experience to literally all humans throughout history, you aren't really in a position to be talking about other people's hubris.
Effective toward what end?
Having kids when and only when you want them? Sure. "Only have sex when you want a kid" has always been an option.
Having kids when and only when you want them, and fulfilling your biological urges? Not so much.
I'm glad for you that your family planning worked for you and fulfilled your needs, but if you're going to extrapolate your experience to literally all humans throughout history, you aren't really in a position to be talking about other people's hubris.
> Having kids when and only when you want them? Sure. "Only have sex when you want a kid" has always been an option.
> Having kids when and only when you want them, and fulfilling your biological urges? Not so much.
Unsure if you're being obstinate or ignorant, but we've been married a decade and I assure you we have had sex several orders of magnitude more than the three times we conceived.
Baby = Egg + sperm. Keep those two apart and no baby. Not exactly rocket science.
> Having kids when and only when you want them, and fulfilling your biological urges? Not so much.
Unsure if you're being obstinate or ignorant, but we've been married a decade and I assure you we have had sex several orders of magnitude more than the three times we conceived.
Baby = Egg + sperm. Keep those two apart and no baby. Not exactly rocket science.
Of course, I assumed that you had sex many times more than you conceived. Keep in mind, I wasn't the other person who commented.
If pulling out, having sex while not ovulating, or whatever you did, is satisfying for you, great! I applaud your satisfaction.
However, as I said not everyone is satisfied by that kind of sex. To say that the limitations imposed by a lack of birth control don't exist, or aren't important, fails to capture the depth, breadth, and variety of human sexuality.
If pulling out, having sex while not ovulating, or whatever you did, is satisfying for you, great! I applaud your satisfaction.
However, as I said not everyone is satisfied by that kind of sex. To say that the limitations imposed by a lack of birth control don't exist, or aren't important, fails to capture the depth, breadth, and variety of human sexuality.
Perhaps in the future you could avoid leading with things such as:
> that's about as useful as a story of how someone prayed and their mom's cancer went away.
All I did was comment and say, "Hey, we did this and it worked for us" and you replied with the equivalent of "Go fuck yourself, I don't want to hear it"
Of course modern birth control opens many doors, I don't think that was ever in question. It's a highly personal choice and I don't think there is anything wrong with that.
Anyway, cheers. Hope you're having a good day.
> that's about as useful as a story of how someone prayed and their mom's cancer went away.
All I did was comment and say, "Hey, we did this and it worked for us" and you replied with the equivalent of "Go fuck yourself, I don't want to hear it"
Of course modern birth control opens many doors, I don't think that was ever in question. It's a highly personal choice and I don't think there is anything wrong with that.
Anyway, cheers. Hope you're having a good day.
In your other comment, you wrote in a kinda magic-wishful-thinking way "you can only get pregnant if you really want kids". That is a contradiction to baby = egg + sperm.
If a woman has sex without some kind of fertility awareness, she gets pregnant. If she knows when she ovulates and avoids sex during that time and 5 days prior, she might not get pregnant.
Thing is: female libido is highest when the fertility in a cycle is the highest. So biologically speaking, women have to actively fight their hormones if they want to avoid pregnancy.
If a woman has sex without some kind of fertility awareness, she gets pregnant. If she knows when she ovulates and avoids sex during that time and 5 days prior, she might not get pregnant.
Thing is: female libido is highest when the fertility in a cycle is the highest. So biologically speaking, women have to actively fight their hormones if they want to avoid pregnancy.
> In your other comment, you wrote in a kinda magic-wishful-thinking way "you can only get pregnant if you really want kids".
I really think you are all just intentionally misunderstanding me.
I am not saying "You can only get pregnant if you want to get pregnant"
I am saying "A couple in a committed relationship can fairly easily and reliably avoid having kids without the use of contraceptives if they don't want them."
I really think you are all just intentionally misunderstanding me.
I am not saying "You can only get pregnant if you want to get pregnant"
I am saying "A couple in a committed relationship can fairly easily and reliably avoid having kids without the use of contraceptives if they don't want them."
What do you mean there is zero alternative?
For most of the human history, for vast majority of the people, choosing not to have spouse and kids would mean choosing not to have sex, e.g. to become a monk. Also, the societal pressure to choose a traditional way of life if you were poor was a lot higher.
For most of the human history, for vast majority of the people, choosing not to have spouse and kids would mean choosing not to have sex, e.g. to become a monk. Also, the societal pressure to choose a traditional way of life if you were poor was a lot higher.
Not at all, the oldest profession is sex worker for a reason. Paying for sex is an option to being a monk.
Choice comes in various flavors. A single woman was very vulnerable some decades ago. While single men had it better there were and are still many stereotypes that affect your life. Just read the parts about feeling disconnected to many old friends. Imagine that a thousand times when you look at the past.
The whole point is that when you have more and more choices , you can't escape your psychological needs as a human being. You can have sex with random strangers with protection from modern technology, but they don't provide the same intimacy you need from your spouse. You can live alone with single wage, but it does not fulfil your psychological needs can only be gained from living with a family.
> Of course people can choose not having spouse or kids. What do you mean there is zero alternative?
It's worth noting that these people are by definition going to be outliers in the population, as they don't reproduce, so there will always be a selection bias the other way.
It's worth noting that these people are by definition going to be outliers in the population, as they don't reproduce, so there will always be a selection bias the other way.
People didn't really work that hard during the Medieval period. It was pretty chill. Play some chess with your bro. Work your ass off in the field or else no food. Get hounded by people in all-metal coats of arms. Back to playing chess with your bro. Wifey did the dishes anyway. Ooops here she is, better get my ass down to the field and till some earth, or I have to sleep in the barn!
You guys are no fun.
> slowly or quickly realize that you are just a regular human being like everybody else.
The earlier the better, one of the best revelation that I had is that 'nobody actually cares about me that much'. So much of the peer/social pressure are self inflicted.
The earlier the better, one of the best revelation that I had is that 'nobody actually cares about me that much'. So much of the peer/social pressure are self inflicted.
Well hopefully you surround yourself with a smallish circle of people who care about you! But yes all your high school / college classmates / coworkers are off living their lives and not thinking about you.
sorry but what? work & family over the past 70-200 years is vastly different from work & family before them (most of human history).
the focus of former for most everyone was just to survive; you worked (probably sustenance farming) to survive, you married for resources, you had children to help with work, etc.
modern work and family is vastly different because work isn't solely motivated by the need for survival, many people today are privileged enough to think about other motivating factors like meaning, prestige, and satisfaction. only now do people had the ability to question things like how they structure relations and relationships, and find what works for them
I think trying to extrapolate in the way you are is flawed
the focus of former for most everyone was just to survive; you worked (probably sustenance farming) to survive, you married for resources, you had children to help with work, etc.
modern work and family is vastly different because work isn't solely motivated by the need for survival, many people today are privileged enough to think about other motivating factors like meaning, prestige, and satisfaction. only now do people had the ability to question things like how they structure relations and relationships, and find what works for them
I think trying to extrapolate in the way you are is flawed
Yes. there are changes in technology and economy, but not in basic human needs.
There might be less people work for survival, and more for higher needs, but it does not change the basic structure of human needs (see Maslow's hierarchy of needs).
I don't see how this point out what flaw I may have.
There might be less people work for survival, and more for higher needs, but it does not change the basic structure of human needs (see Maslow's hierarchy of needs).
I don't see how this point out what flaw I may have.
Yeah I'd love to be FI but even more I'd love to make what I make now and only work three days a week. Having more Me days then Employer days would really change my life.
This is the biggest reason I'll likely stay a teacher. I get plenty of 'me' days and, in a low CoL area, a decent enough salary. Sure, I'll likely never retire early (which was a goal of mine for a long time) and there are downsides, but it's better than how I see myself handling the alternative.
I've got a lot of family in the education space. They get paid shit money but having a solid two months off every year is pretty appealing.
Yep, exactly. I counted it up one time and I get 75 days off, not counting weekends. Plus 10 sick days and 2 personal days. It's really hard to beat that. And, being in one of the better paid districts in a low CoL area, well it isn't really all that bad (the culture around education is awful, but that's partially the result of admin and I think it can be changed slowly but surely).
Find something I can do remotely part-time throughout the year and I'd honestly be set. Plus student loan forgiveness means I might actually get to own a house by the time I'm 35ish.
Find something I can do remotely part-time throughout the year and I'd honestly be set. Plus student loan forgiveness means I might actually get to own a house by the time I'm 35ish.
I think there is huge a difference between working because you have to, and working because you want to.
Sorry but I still don’t see the point in having kids or how it’s necessary for a happy life. People don’t make kids because it makes them happy. People make kids because they’re wired to do so.
This follow up is way more compelling because it deals with the reality. I'm jealous of the authors communication skills and their partner's: there are some very hard statements in there about feeling worthless and falling behind because of no job. I wonder of those words were spoken calmly, or shouted through tears.
Here are their discussions: https://livingafi.com/post-fire-relationship-disconnect/
TL;DR: He has to go back to work due to medical issues, and his relationship didn't work out. But he's still got his chin up and it's great.
Here are their discussions: https://livingafi.com/post-fire-relationship-disconnect/
TL;DR: He has to go back to work due to medical issues, and his relationship didn't work out. But he's still got his chin up and it's great.
> [article author, to wife] ... I thought that what you wanted was to live a life of freedom, with me. We’d talked about this.
> [article author's wife] Not exactly. I wanted to have kids with you and work and be like everyone else. Live a normal life. I’m tired of being weird. And I don’t want to go back to work if you aren’t. That’s weird too. You wouldn’t even be a stay-at-home-dad. You’d be nothing.
> [article author] And that was it. That the second big ticket problem, critical issue #2. She couldn’t get her head around the idea that we were different.
I don't buy his analysis. I don't think she wanted to do those things because others were doing them. I think she wanted to have kids and a classic family and happened to point out, oh, by the way, other people do those things too. Maybe it's easier to think that your former partner is shallow and busy comparing herself to others, rather than admit that the desire to start a family is a normal and genetically ingrained emotion.
Ironically, his new partner has told him she's interested in having kids and they're both working. I know, it's easy to claim to understand from an armchair, and I'm not saying I've necessarily got this right, but it's definitely interesting to consider.
> [article author's wife] Not exactly. I wanted to have kids with you and work and be like everyone else. Live a normal life. I’m tired of being weird. And I don’t want to go back to work if you aren’t. That’s weird too. You wouldn’t even be a stay-at-home-dad. You’d be nothing.
> [article author] And that was it. That the second big ticket problem, critical issue #2. She couldn’t get her head around the idea that we were different.
I don't buy his analysis. I don't think she wanted to do those things because others were doing them. I think she wanted to have kids and a classic family and happened to point out, oh, by the way, other people do those things too. Maybe it's easier to think that your former partner is shallow and busy comparing herself to others, rather than admit that the desire to start a family is a normal and genetically ingrained emotion.
Ironically, his new partner has told him she's interested in having kids and they're both working. I know, it's easy to claim to understand from an armchair, and I'm not saying I've necessarily got this right, but it's definitely interesting to consider.
> [article author's wife] Not exactly. I wanted to have kids with you and work and be like everyone else. Live a normal life. I’m tired of being weird. And I don’t want to go back to work if you aren’t. That’s weird too. You wouldn’t even be a stay-at-home-dad. You’d be nothing.
this part is confusing. it seems like she's saying she wanted to be working and have kids the whole time? hard to understand how you could get that far along the path without realizing it's the exact opposite of what you want. a more reasonable way to understand the quote is that she simply changed her mind after realizing the implications of their life path.
which leads to a more reasonable way of interpreting this line:
> [article author] And that was it. That the second big ticket problem, critical issue #2. She couldn’t get her head around the idea that we were different.
I think (or at least hope) the author isn't saying they are special people with some kind of special destiny to FIRE. if I read it as "she couldn't accept our being different [from our friends]", it makes a lot more sense. I think the author is painfully aware that working and starting a family is the "normal" thing to do.
this part is confusing. it seems like she's saying she wanted to be working and have kids the whole time? hard to understand how you could get that far along the path without realizing it's the exact opposite of what you want. a more reasonable way to understand the quote is that she simply changed her mind after realizing the implications of their life path.
which leads to a more reasonable way of interpreting this line:
> [article author] And that was it. That the second big ticket problem, critical issue #2. She couldn’t get her head around the idea that we were different.
I think (or at least hope) the author isn't saying they are special people with some kind of special destiny to FIRE. if I read it as "she couldn't accept our being different [from our friends]", it makes a lot more sense. I think the author is painfully aware that working and starting a family is the "normal" thing to do.
I think she's totally reasonable in saying this, and I think it's normal that after you've achieved the goal and finished a project you've been working on together, you would move on to the next project. And the big project in a heterosexual relationship is naturally having a family, and I think it IS weird to insist on continuing with a "life of freedom" when you don't really have any thing particular that you're working on. And in the end, he also found out that what he needed to be happy, was actually to buy a house and start a family, so he ended up at the same point himself eventually with his new partner.
It is ultimately his perspective but I agree, he was one layer of abstraction away from calling her a "normie". She had goals and ambitions he didn't share; that doesn't mean she "doesn't get it", it means they're different people.
What it tells me is that there are two really important and serious things you need to consciously commit to in order to be compatible with this lifestyle. 1. Set aside that urge to keep up with the Joneses, and 2. Stop deriving life meaning from employment. These habits can be deeply ingrained in someone's personality, like an addiction in remission, and may rear their heads even if you agree to deliberately try to fight it. I don't think this is genetic. It comes from a lifetime of social conditioning, from watching your parents and friends do it. I'd actually like to read more about the strategies people have successfully used to deprogram themselves and help their loved ones also move past these things, helping them make the jump to FIRE (or regular-retirement).
You seem to be saying exactly the same thing as the author, which is precisely what I was disagreeing with. I can think of THREE reasons to want to continue working past the point the author of the article did:
1. You derive meaning from work.
2. You want more shiny material stuff all the time for shallow "keeping up with the Joneses" reasons
3. You want to raise a family, which was not possible in the financial plan of the article's author.
You and the author both focussed on 2, but to me it sounds like the wife mainly wanted 3. Reason 2 may or may not be genetically ingrained, that is besides the point; wanting children definitely is, at least in some people. (A sibling comment suggested that they may not have been able to have genetic children for other reasons, but that doesn't necessarily stop the desire.)
1. You derive meaning from work.
2. You want more shiny material stuff all the time for shallow "keeping up with the Joneses" reasons
3. You want to raise a family, which was not possible in the financial plan of the article's author.
You and the author both focussed on 2, but to me it sounds like the wife mainly wanted 3. Reason 2 may or may not be genetically ingrained, that is besides the point; wanting children definitely is, at least in some people. (A sibling comment suggested that they may not have been able to have genetic children for other reasons, but that doesn't necessarily stop the desire.)
I think a serious problem here is that he thought he was free from the treadmill, but it wasn't true. He just so happened to be at a certain rung of the ladder along with all of his peers and as he retired, it felt like he climbed even further and had "made it" in a way they hadn't. But he had really hit the pause button on his accomplishments, so as his peers entered the next life phase of increased career security and financial options, he was left behind and suddenly found himself low on the ladder looking up. Much of his personal angst came from this.
Yeah I feel like he has a fairly dim view of a typical lifestyle based on some faulty assumptions. He seems to think that “staying on the treadmill” would be done by most people primarily for vain or frivolous reasons. That might be a part of it, but many people want or need these things out of necessity. Withdrawing from from working life and living like an austere hermit is not going to fly for a family of 4, for example. Hell, he was not even able to make it work as a couple. Very few mothers are going to tolerate raising a family on 30k a year when they damn well know their partner can go out and make 5x that much.
I also really question the whole living on 30k thing with 950k in the bank. That could be invested into some monthly paying income ETFs that would easily pay double if not more what he was taking out. Without even touching the principal.
I also really question the whole living on 30k thing with 950k in the bank. That could be invested into some monthly paying income ETFs that would easily pay double if not more what he was taking out. Without even touching the principal.
Yep. Author is avoiding the hardest realizations and emotions here. I don’t necessarily blame them, but they’re gonna need to confront that to have a healthy relationship in the future.
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Odd, I was going to comment on how poor the communication with his partner was in the updated post. I realize he'd written the 2021 update after their separation (hard to tell if these individual sections were real-time but even worse if so) but what was happening was so obvious when he first started to mention the issues, and he described her so harshly and without empathy, like she had some bug that needed to be "fixed" and he wasn't bothering to relate.
In the post-FIRE relationships disconnect post, it was jarring how he went from having what I saw as a reasonably well communicated discussion to "she couldn't get her head around us being different." Seems like the understood each other, but had different priorities. Each also seemed to have a bit of disdain for the other's way of thinking.
He saw her desires as vain and felt like she didn't understand his ideal of freedom. She saw his freedom as stagnation.
He saw her desires as vain and felt like she didn't understand his ideal of freedom. She saw his freedom as stagnation.
I think the communication was good and the understanding was lacking. Talking != understanding. And sometimes talking is really really hard when you know it might lead to a minefield.
Always beautiful to see people comment on the realities of these situations.
Wow, this post is an incredible example of gut-wrenching honesty about things working out differently than expected. I'm eight months into life without work right now, and can relate to a lot of this. I didn't make a plan to retire (early or otherwise), I just wanted to move abroad and take time to learn the language and think a little about what I want out of life aside from career.
I can relate to the anxiety and ennui they experienced in 2018. Something good about being in the rat race is that even during bad days you don't feel adrift or wasteful. During the first couple of months after I quit working, and after moving abroad, I hadn't yet enrolled in full-time language classes. At first it was easy to enjoy myself meeting new people, going rock climbing, traveling a bit, going on dates, etc. But after a while, I started noticing that if I woke up at 11am and didn't have "something to do," i.e. a plan, I started feeling a very strong sense of unease, something like a very mild sense of panic or alarm. Like here I am with no work to eat up my day, plenty of money, nothing but free time. If I wake up on the wrong side of the bed, or just don't feel like I'm enjoying myself, I am utterly wasting my precious time on Earth. That's a pretty dark chasm lurking just beneath the surface. If I'm having a bad day but can still pour a cup of coffee and go to work, I'm at least banking up money for some future day that I can enjoy it.
I feel like he was a little unfair in how he characterized his partner's experience of that ennui, although I don't blame him for feeling bitter after an affair. I've never wanted to keep up with the Joneses or spend my life jockeying for status, but I still don't think I'd feel okay permanently quitting work this young. There's more existential dread in being immediately responsible for enjoying every single day to the fullest than I'm ready to face.
I can relate to the anxiety and ennui they experienced in 2018. Something good about being in the rat race is that even during bad days you don't feel adrift or wasteful. During the first couple of months after I quit working, and after moving abroad, I hadn't yet enrolled in full-time language classes. At first it was easy to enjoy myself meeting new people, going rock climbing, traveling a bit, going on dates, etc. But after a while, I started noticing that if I woke up at 11am and didn't have "something to do," i.e. a plan, I started feeling a very strong sense of unease, something like a very mild sense of panic or alarm. Like here I am with no work to eat up my day, plenty of money, nothing but free time. If I wake up on the wrong side of the bed, or just don't feel like I'm enjoying myself, I am utterly wasting my precious time on Earth. That's a pretty dark chasm lurking just beneath the surface. If I'm having a bad day but can still pour a cup of coffee and go to work, I'm at least banking up money for some future day that I can enjoy it.
I feel like he was a little unfair in how he characterized his partner's experience of that ennui, although I don't blame him for feeling bitter after an affair. I've never wanted to keep up with the Joneses or spend my life jockeying for status, but I still don't think I'd feel okay permanently quitting work this young. There's more existential dread in being immediately responsible for enjoying every single day to the fullest than I'm ready to face.
I think people need purpose to feel fulfilled.
Work serves as a default purpose for lots of people. Family and children are a pretty good built-in biological one.
Learning things, building a company, making things can all serve that need. Working on big unsolved problems can too.
I think most people feel uneasy and unhappy if they're not part of a community doing something they think is valuable. A lot of religion serves this purpose for people (though I personally find religion to be a net negative).
Finding different things that motivate you and are worth dedicating your life (or some subset of your life) to work on is hard, but I think knowing that it's worth trying to find something is the first step.
True financial independence is a way to make the search more possible without anxiety of financial ruin, but it doesn't remove the non-money related anxieties and it doesn't fix all the other sexual selection incentives that remain.
Work serves as a default purpose for lots of people. Family and children are a pretty good built-in biological one.
Learning things, building a company, making things can all serve that need. Working on big unsolved problems can too.
I think most people feel uneasy and unhappy if they're not part of a community doing something they think is valuable. A lot of religion serves this purpose for people (though I personally find religion to be a net negative).
Finding different things that motivate you and are worth dedicating your life (or some subset of your life) to work on is hard, but I think knowing that it's worth trying to find something is the first step.
True financial independence is a way to make the search more possible without anxiety of financial ruin, but it doesn't remove the non-money related anxieties and it doesn't fix all the other sexual selection incentives that remain.
Thanks for sharing your experience. the term "dark chasm lurking just beneath the surface" to describe what total freedom looks like on bad days speaks to me.
I also agree with your assessment of his partner. Keeping up with the Joneses sounds shallow at first, but I think it belies the true human desire to be respected by others. Maybe his partner felt like they weren't "accomplishing much" in life, which doesn't mean a 9-5 per se or an annual income $ per se, but that accomplishments were the best way to get respected by other people.
We're social creatures, so I don't think it's wrong to seek social validation by others. I think when one is single and looking for a partner, what other people think does matter a lot. I think if the author was still committed to not working, finding a partner would be much harder.
I also agree with your assessment of his partner. Keeping up with the Joneses sounds shallow at first, but I think it belies the true human desire to be respected by others. Maybe his partner felt like they weren't "accomplishing much" in life, which doesn't mean a 9-5 per se or an annual income $ per se, but that accomplishments were the best way to get respected by other people.
We're social creatures, so I don't think it's wrong to seek social validation by others. I think when one is single and looking for a partner, what other people think does matter a lot. I think if the author was still committed to not working, finding a partner would be much harder.
I don't understand how you can wake up with nothing to do and panic over it. I would always have some hobby or sports project going that I know I'd always want to work on, I seriously can't understand how someone can run out of things to do when there's painting, music, cooking, sports etc, just one of those would keep me busy and socially connected for a lifetime.
Because if you drop out of the work force, you get a different perspective. There's painting and music and they are a good contrast to your work, a good way to spend time not thinking about work.
But if there is only painting and music and cooking, it becomes kinda pointless, especially if most people you know don't have time during the day. You're doing this all alone.
But if there is only painting and music and cooking, it becomes kinda pointless, especially if most people you know don't have time during the day. You're doing this all alone.
Well said. Try quitting work and indulging those activities for a while. I don't think of myself as a particularly boring person. I love bike touring, and I live in a foreign country with all kinds of interesting places, food and culture to explore, yet doing it months on end I started to question whether _this_ was what all my hard work in years past was meant for. Did I save up all this money and liberate myself for this particular stroll around the neighborhood to take pictures? It felt unsettling.
I've been thinking about this all day, and I realized another experience it gives me similar feelings to. at 15 I absolutely hated public high school. I had been alt-schooled (home schooled, unschooled, something like that) up until 9th grade. After one year in regular school, learning at a mind numbing pace, I knew with conviction that I just wanted to finish school and get on with life, so I withdrew and enrolled in the local night school. I blew through classes and would have graduated in no time, but something started gnawing at me. I could finish school for the day at my own pace and then leave, but to do what? After leaving regular high school, my classmates were mostly troubled kids, or people trying to get their life back on track by getting a diploma. I fairly quickly realized that I was going to miss out on being in the rat race of high school for 4 years, and went back to regular school halfway through the school year.
I've been thinking about this all day, and I realized another experience it gives me similar feelings to. at 15 I absolutely hated public high school. I had been alt-schooled (home schooled, unschooled, something like that) up until 9th grade. After one year in regular school, learning at a mind numbing pace, I knew with conviction that I just wanted to finish school and get on with life, so I withdrew and enrolled in the local night school. I blew through classes and would have graduated in no time, but something started gnawing at me. I could finish school for the day at my own pace and then leave, but to do what? After leaving regular high school, my classmates were mostly troubled kids, or people trying to get their life back on track by getting a diploma. I fairly quickly realized that I was going to miss out on being in the rat race of high school for 4 years, and went back to regular school halfway through the school year.
A shift in mindset is required. We value our time too much. It's true that it's finite and non-replenishible, but we still value it too much. Once we can see our time for what it's really worth (not much), anxieties about potentially pissing it all away disappear, replaced with ideas and possibilities (most of which may have previously have been classified as "a waste of time").
The subtext of many of the responses to this post is a self-congratulatory "I knew all along that his plan was unrealistic". It seems like the thing people like about the follow-up post is that they think it confirms their worldview.
If we actually listen to the original author instead of looking for confirmation of our own worldviews, the author tells a different story. He says, (this is a copy-paste quote): "The initial plan itself was fine." His original plan wasn't unrealistic, at least not any more unrealistic than any more traditional life plans--it simply fell prey to life events which would cause almost any plan to fail. His partner left him for another man and he was diagnosed with a serious medical issue.
And critically, while the author's plan has changed, the goals still haven't. Not working is still the goal.
I've seen the plan that's common on Hacker News fail too. Lots of startups fail, and even if your startup succeeds that doesn't mean you're satisfied. The best case scenario has nothing to do with economics: it's coming to peace with yourself, finding meaningful relationships, and feeling a sense of purpose and belonging. I won't write off the possibility of finding those things in a startup or a career, but in my life I've seen it far less than the self-congratulatory posts here would lead you to believe.
If we actually listen to the original author instead of looking for confirmation of our own worldviews, the author tells a different story. He says, (this is a copy-paste quote): "The initial plan itself was fine." His original plan wasn't unrealistic, at least not any more unrealistic than any more traditional life plans--it simply fell prey to life events which would cause almost any plan to fail. His partner left him for another man and he was diagnosed with a serious medical issue.
And critically, while the author's plan has changed, the goals still haven't. Not working is still the goal.
I've seen the plan that's common on Hacker News fail too. Lots of startups fail, and even if your startup succeeds that doesn't mean you're satisfied. The best case scenario has nothing to do with economics: it's coming to peace with yourself, finding meaningful relationships, and feeling a sense of purpose and belonging. I won't write off the possibility of finding those things in a startup or a career, but in my life I've seen it far less than the self-congratulatory posts here would lead you to believe.
> His partner left him for another man and he was diagnosed with a serious medical issue.
Both of those events are very common – especially medical issues. Once you're getting old, developing a "serious medical issue" is more common than not! Any plan which assumes that you'll neither break up with your partner nor develop medical issues for the rest of your life is a plan destined to fail.
Both of those events are very common – especially medical issues. Once you're getting old, developing a "serious medical issue" is more common than not! Any plan which assumes that you'll neither break up with your partner nor develop medical issues for the rest of your life is a plan destined to fail.
...in which you cherry-pick one sentence from my post, ignoring the sentence before it. That's exactly why I said, "at least not any more unrealistic than any more traditional life plans".
Working a job doesn't fix either of these problems. At least in the US, many people who go bankrupt due to medical issues have health insurance, usually provided by their job. These problems are compounded if your plan was to work, but you can't work due to your medical problems. And while medical or disability insurance can theoretically account for these worst-case scenarios, they can be so costly that they may cause financial problems even if no disaster happens.
Divorce is also a major cause of bankruptcy, even if you're employed.
You're doing exactly what my previous post accused people of doing: gloating about how the author's plan failed, without looking at how plans that fit your worldview don't account for the same life events any better.
Working a job doesn't fix either of these problems. At least in the US, many people who go bankrupt due to medical issues have health insurance, usually provided by their job. These problems are compounded if your plan was to work, but you can't work due to your medical problems. And while medical or disability insurance can theoretically account for these worst-case scenarios, they can be so costly that they may cause financial problems even if no disaster happens.
Divorce is also a major cause of bankruptcy, even if you're employed.
You're doing exactly what my previous post accused people of doing: gloating about how the author's plan failed, without looking at how plans that fit your worldview don't account for the same life events any better.
> That's exactly why I said, "at least not any more unrealistic than any more traditional life plans".
And you're still wrong. Retiring early renders your financial situation much more fragile and susceptible to disruptive events. Sure, you can go bankrupt due to divorce or illness even when employed, but it's much more probable when you don't have an income stream and when your financial planning depends on not breaking up or not getting ill.
> gloating about how the author's plan failed, without looking at how plans that fit your worldview don't account for the same life events any better.
You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about my "worldview" and about how I'm "gloating" over the author's misfortune. Don't.
And you're still wrong. Retiring early renders your financial situation much more fragile and susceptible to disruptive events. Sure, you can go bankrupt due to divorce or illness even when employed, but it's much more probable when you don't have an income stream and when your financial planning depends on not breaking up or not getting ill.
> gloating about how the author's plan failed, without looking at how plans that fit your worldview don't account for the same life events any better.
You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about my "worldview" and about how I'm "gloating" over the author's misfortune. Don't.
> Sure, you can go bankrupt due to divorce or illness even when employed, but it's much more probable when you don't have an income stream and when your financial planning depends on not breaking up or not getting ill.
This is exactly missing my point:
Just because you retire early, doesn't mean your financial planning depends on you not breaking up or not getting ill.
Just because you work out the rest of your existence, doesn't mean you've successfully accounted for breakups or illness.
> Retiring early renders your financial situation much more fragile and susceptible to disruptive events.
Why is that, exactly?
> You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about my "worldview" and about how I'm "gloating" over the author's misfortune.
What assumptions? Am I correct in saying that you believe "Retiring early renders your financial situation much more fragile and susceptible to disruptive events" is part of your worldview, and that you're taking the author's failure as a confirmation of that worldview?
This is exactly missing my point:
Just because you retire early, doesn't mean your financial planning depends on you not breaking up or not getting ill.
Just because you work out the rest of your existence, doesn't mean you've successfully accounted for breakups or illness.
> Retiring early renders your financial situation much more fragile and susceptible to disruptive events.
Why is that, exactly?
> You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions about my "worldview" and about how I'm "gloating" over the author's misfortune.
What assumptions? Am I correct in saying that you believe "Retiring early renders your financial situation much more fragile and susceptible to disruptive events" is part of your worldview, and that you're taking the author's failure as a confirmation of that worldview?
Furthermore, his plan didn't fail per-se. I am sure he was aware that he may have to go back to work if life threw him curveballs. It did, so he did. He had some of the best years of his life, he had some bad years. He is still doing financially well. That's as good as most people get working or not.
I really don’t like how he tries to diminish his partner’s feeling about “falling behind” as some mirage created by Instagram and classism. I think it’s pretty uncontroversial that most people don’t want to live on $30k/year for their entire life when they could maybe work and get more.
Though maybe this is colored by the relevation that follows shortly thereafter. To me it shows an unwillingness to think critically about this. It sounds like his partner communicated with him changes she wanted to make (go back to work and not live like college students) and he just ignored them because he thought they were stupid.
Though maybe this is colored by the relevation that follows shortly thereafter. To me it shows an unwillingness to think critically about this. It sounds like his partner communicated with him changes she wanted to make (go back to work and not live like college students) and he just ignored them because he thought they were stupid.
I appreciated reading about how both of them reacted to the realities of early retirement. I like to think I could be like the author, and be happy without much, but it did make me think if I might be more like his SO, especially when I see my friends upgrading their lives in our 40s.
My take away from the post is that they fundamentally felt 2 different ways about it. The author did not feel the stuff his SO felt. But she was on board with retiring on “lean fire” so I doubt she predicted this about herself either.
I read this post a few weeks ago, so maybe I’m remembering wrong, but I thought the author was perfectly open to SO returning to work, but she wasn’t sure in the middle of all this if she really wanted to do that? I don’t think it’s the author’s responsibility, and I don’t think he thought it was his responsibility, to decide for his spouse if she worked or not, that was up to her to decide.
My take away from the post is that they fundamentally felt 2 different ways about it. The author did not feel the stuff his SO felt. But she was on board with retiring on “lean fire” so I doubt she predicted this about herself either.
I read this post a few weeks ago, so maybe I’m remembering wrong, but I thought the author was perfectly open to SO returning to work, but she wasn’t sure in the middle of all this if she really wanted to do that? I don’t think it’s the author’s responsibility, and I don’t think he thought it was his responsibility, to decide for his spouse if she worked or not, that was up to her to decide.
There was definitely some unreliable narrator there. She said she wanted kids. Apparently he did not, since presumably they were not part of the budget. He claimed to be outside the need for more spending and accused her of being fooled by social media, but admits he felt a lot of shame at falling behind his peers in accomplishment. She said she couldn't see herself being with someone who wouldn't work to improve their lives and support a larger family. He said he wouldn't go back to work, even if she did. In his next relationship, he went back to work, increased his spending and is planning on having kids, several large reversals. Seems to me that they weren't so different after all.
It sounded like she changed her mind on the kids thing - or at least they didn't discuss it as much as they should have.
The sense I got was that it was status related and he was pretty close to right. She didn't like being with someone who wasn't working, didn't like telling her friends her SO didn't work, didn't like not having things to talk about, etc. He was low status compared to her friends.
Eventually she cheated on him - I think that's wrong, but the motivation behind it is not unpredictable or uncommon: https://samharris.org/podcasts/254-mating-strategies-earthli...
The new relationship is different in part because his SO is a librarian with a small income, there isn't as much of a status divide and he is high status in that match given his high net worth.
There's a lot of evidence that women tend to select people at their level or higher for mates: http://rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/216-being-a-transhumani...
A lot of this feels like a narrative on top of that core issue without recognizing the underlying problem.
Obviously things are more complex than this at the individual level, but it feels like a lot of talking around the core issue without recognizing it.
I'm not making morality judgements on any of this (except perhaps the cheating), but it's good to recognize the pragmatic reality of the world you're in when making these kinds of decisions. If you decide to retire early, it'll likely affect your relationship opportunities in some ways you may not understand.
The sense I got was that it was status related and he was pretty close to right. She didn't like being with someone who wasn't working, didn't like telling her friends her SO didn't work, didn't like not having things to talk about, etc. He was low status compared to her friends.
Eventually she cheated on him - I think that's wrong, but the motivation behind it is not unpredictable or uncommon: https://samharris.org/podcasts/254-mating-strategies-earthli...
The new relationship is different in part because his SO is a librarian with a small income, there isn't as much of a status divide and he is high status in that match given his high net worth.
There's a lot of evidence that women tend to select people at their level or higher for mates: http://rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/216-being-a-transhumani...
A lot of this feels like a narrative on top of that core issue without recognizing the underlying problem.
Obviously things are more complex than this at the individual level, but it feels like a lot of talking around the core issue without recognizing it.
I'm not making morality judgements on any of this (except perhaps the cheating), but it's good to recognize the pragmatic reality of the world you're in when making these kinds of decisions. If you decide to retire early, it'll likely affect your relationship opportunities in some ways you may not understand.
> I think it’s pretty uncontroversial that most people don’t want to live on $30k/year
One thing that I missed the first time this article got posted is that he and his (ex)wife had separate finances.
He had an income of 30k/year, she presumably had a similar income.
Living on 60k/year seems like a whole different ballgame than 30k/year.
One thing that I missed the first time this article got posted is that he and his (ex)wife had separate finances.
He had an income of 30k/year, she presumably had a similar income.
Living on 60k/year seems like a whole different ballgame than 30k/year.
I mean, she was down for FIRE. I'm sure they discussed the budget before hand. If things changed, and she wanted to go back to work to live a more luxurious lifestyle, well, she's welcome to? He's under no obligation to do the same. I feel like she wanted him to return to work as well to keep up with the jones's and I can understand him saying no to that.
Seems like fundamentally different ways of life between them. The author seems to have strongly held views that fall well outside the mainstream. Something being "pretty uncontroversial" is not a compelling point to such a person, particularly when it clashes with said strongly held views.
I can relate to his outlook. I hope he was more diplomatic during their discussions about this, but now that it's after the fact, we are reading his blunt opinions on the matter. It's hard to know if he is "right" and she really was influenced by status-driven thinking via Instagram, or if he was just being hard-headed. Either or both are plausible to me.
I can relate to his outlook. I hope he was more diplomatic during their discussions about this, but now that it's after the fact, we are reading his blunt opinions on the matter. It's hard to know if he is "right" and she really was influenced by status-driven thinking via Instagram, or if he was just being hard-headed. Either or both are plausible to me.
Yeah, this line:
> And she wasn’t trying that hard anyway, because she had acquired, somehow, New Life Dreams, which had to do with Conspicuous Consumption and Keeping Up and being Visibly Awesome — dreams which are at odds with my own.
The desire to be seen and take part in society is fundamentally human. Yes, you can overdo it, but you can also underdo it. There is nothing wrong with going to nice restaurants, posting about it, discussing it with your friends, etc.
My guess is that they simply stopped having a social life with their peers (he hinted at such). That sounds horrible to me.
There is a reason that retirement communities exist. Just because you retire, that doesn't mean you exit from community.
> And she wasn’t trying that hard anyway, because she had acquired, somehow, New Life Dreams, which had to do with Conspicuous Consumption and Keeping Up and being Visibly Awesome — dreams which are at odds with my own.
The desire to be seen and take part in society is fundamentally human. Yes, you can overdo it, but you can also underdo it. There is nothing wrong with going to nice restaurants, posting about it, discussing it with your friends, etc.
My guess is that they simply stopped having a social life with their peers (he hinted at such). That sounds horrible to me.
There is a reason that retirement communities exist. Just because you retire, that doesn't mean you exit from community.
You could say that comparing social status is innate and natural to some people, but to call Conspicuous Consumption "fundamentally human" is overstatement.
Different things make different people happy. Some people enjoy having the biggest TV on the block. Other people take pride in NOT having a TV.
Different things make different people happy. Some people enjoy having the biggest TV on the block. Other people take pride in NOT having a TV.
> but to call Conspicuous Consumption "fundamentally human" is overstatement.
My take is that what his wife wanted was not “conspicuous consumption” but rather just a healthy social life.
Granted that is just what i gleaned from his statements.
My take is that what his wife wanted was not “conspicuous consumption” but rather just a healthy social life.
Granted that is just what i gleaned from his statements.
I totally agree, and I also don't think it's a good idea to choose sides here and start to deny the pleasures of accumulating material comforts as something stupid, after all, accumulating nice things IS fun and meaningful! Even though I can agree that it's commonly over emphasized, and that it's not the most important thing after all, it still is really meaningful, and also what gives most people meaning in their lives, after all, so taking a dismissive opinion of this is probably not going to be a good idea..
It doesn't seem like a huge surprise: https://samharris.org/podcasts/254-mating-strategies-earthli...
It can come out in different ways, but I suspect it's not that divorced from the above. It's not very attractive to be unemployed and not very ambitious. Maybe the introspection of why is missing, but I suspect that's the reason.
It can come out in different ways, but I suspect it's not that divorced from the above. It's not very attractive to be unemployed and not very ambitious. Maybe the introspection of why is missing, but I suspect that's the reason.
See this is still blaming the problem on some kind of externalized illogical other you aren’t willing to understand (just replace “partner falling for Instagram lies” with neckbeardy EvPsych) rather than empathizing with the other person’s opinion.
Like if your partner directly tells you they are unhappy because of XYZ, rather than thinking it’s stupid/some part of how the woman brain works (eye roll), it seems pretty clear that not doing anything to fix XYZ - in this case working again and living more luxuriously - is being a bad partner. Doesn’t matter what the genders are or what XYZ is.
Like if your partner directly tells you they are unhappy because of XYZ, rather than thinking it’s stupid/some part of how the woman brain works (eye roll), it seems pretty clear that not doing anything to fix XYZ - in this case working again and living more luxuriously - is being a bad partner. Doesn’t matter what the genders are or what XYZ is.
I think we agree more than we disagree and you're being more hostile than necessary.
> "it seems pretty clear that not doing anything to fix XYZ - in this case working again and living more luxuriously - is being a bad partner."
Yeah - and the why is the bit I was getting at. They have a core value disagreement here, it's likely to be a common one given sexual selective incentives and behavior. I'm not making a moral judgement, but that's likely the truth.
It also sounded like she didn't want to work again - it's unclear if she wanted them both to work, or just for him to work. The podcast I linked is pretty good, men and women often cheat for different reasons, but her motivation here is a pretty textbook example.
His comments are also in the context of her cheating on him and a breakup, so unsurprisingly skew negative.
> "it seems pretty clear that not doing anything to fix XYZ - in this case working again and living more luxuriously - is being a bad partner."
Yeah - and the why is the bit I was getting at. They have a core value disagreement here, it's likely to be a common one given sexual selective incentives and behavior. I'm not making a moral judgement, but that's likely the truth.
It also sounded like she didn't want to work again - it's unclear if she wanted them both to work, or just for him to work. The podcast I linked is pretty good, men and women often cheat for different reasons, but her motivation here is a pretty textbook example.
His comments are also in the context of her cheating on him and a breakup, so unsurprisingly skew negative.
It's an open question whether anything in the evolutionary psychology field should be given the label "likely the truth."
Wife was saying “I feel like we should both work again” and his response was “OK, how about you work? I’m good.”
I’m not surprised at all at what happened.
I’m not surprised at all at what happened.
Well, it's a perfectly reasonable response.
Yeah that was a big WTF moment for me too. It is completely normal and human nature to want to do better and have more. This has nothing to do with social media! I couldn’t imagine being stuck in a rut of a frugal fixed income forever. I post nothing on social media, I care nothing about keeping up with what I see there, and I like being different. But I still want to be advancing, improving, and getting more.
I doubt the author sees being frugal as a rut and I doubt that the author sees "getting more" as advancement. You and the other are both human and normal regardless.
The author's outlook on life is completely valid, so is his partner's, so is yours. Your outlooks has nothing to do with social media, but maybe his partner's really did. We only have the author's words to go by for this story.
The author's outlook on life is completely valid, so is his partner's, so is yours. Your outlooks has nothing to do with social media, but maybe his partner's really did. We only have the author's words to go by for this story.
I'm not criticizing his own choices. What I'm surprised at is his lack of empathy for his partner's. We have only one side of the story, but it does seem very one-sided.
Agreed, especially after reading this post https://livingafi.com/post-fire-relationship-disconnect/
It's a dialog he is creating as a summary of many discussions. In his version of the story they both communicate well and seem to hear each other, but not agree on life. Then his takeaway is that she didn't hear him, which was an odd take.
It's a dialog he is creating as a summary of many discussions. In his version of the story they both communicate well and seem to hear each other, but not agree on life. Then his takeaway is that she didn't hear him, which was an odd take.
Man I really dislike the way he comes across. He acts like anyone who doesn't want his lifestyle is just "keeping up with the joneses" and "peacocking" and is just trying to impress other people, whereas he is enlightened and doesn't need that external validation.
That is so smug and self-important. He clearly has social needs, he just feels them differently. And also, not everyone who wants to work and have wealth is just doing it to keep up with others.
I like having some wealth because it makes a lot of things easier. I like the stuff I buy, for myself, for its intrinsic value. A lot of things I spend money on I never even show anyone else. I don't post on social media or go on social media, but I still like a nice house and some toys.
That is so smug and self-important. He clearly has social needs, he just feels them differently. And also, not everyone who wants to work and have wealth is just doing it to keep up with others.
I like having some wealth because it makes a lot of things easier. I like the stuff I buy, for myself, for its intrinsic value. A lot of things I spend money on I never even show anyone else. I don't post on social media or go on social media, but I still like a nice house and some toys.
Yeah, he's also unwilling to admit that his early retirement failed despite having had to begin working again.
The goal of retirement is to have enough that you will be able to avoid working even if some things go wrong. Otherwise you're not ready to retire.
The goal of retirement is to have enough that you will be able to avoid working even if some things go wrong. Otherwise you're not ready to retire.
Yep. My takeaway is he is probably a bit of a narcissist / stuck in his own head. Unable to process the real lived perspectives of others.
This is 10x better than the OP article. Please, anyone reading the comments, read this article in its entirety instead.
That post was incredible. Really rare and refreshing to find that level of honesty on the internet nowadays (even when pseudonymous), sadly. Reflected a lot of thoughts I had about potential downsides to FIRE.
The downsides like having different visions for your life from your spouse, or discovering you have a chronic health issue were not due to FIRE. In fact, FIRE gave the author tools to decide what to do about those issues. The result may not be what the author wanted (divorce, a new relationship, seeking additional income to support that new relationship) but none of the issues were caused by FIRE.
I'm not knocking FIRE. I like the idea of it and especially the author's comment about a lot people just following what people around them are doing instead of living life by their own standards.
The downsides I thought of were the inherit randomness of life (catastrophic incidents, children, relationships, health). I'm fairly certain the people working at my company past potential retirement are due to them having family and wanting the insurance perks and hedge for any potential uncertainties children and older age can throw at you.
I really liked that the author elaborated on the relationship dynamic, because I think that's something that could be a common issue in FIRE relationships with a middle-class or higher partner. What if they still want to work or do more? Can your lifestyle accomodate that?
The downsides I thought of were the inherit randomness of life (catastrophic incidents, children, relationships, health). I'm fairly certain the people working at my company past potential retirement are due to them having family and wanting the insurance perks and hedge for any potential uncertainties children and older age can throw at you.
I really liked that the author elaborated on the relationship dynamic, because I think that's something that could be a common issue in FIRE relationships with a middle-class or higher partner. What if they still want to work or do more? Can your lifestyle accomodate that?
2018: life was perfect with my perfect partner until my perfect partner left me
2021: life is perfect with a new perfect partner who's never going to leave me unlike my previous perfect partner
2023: any guesses?
2021: life is perfect with a new perfect partner who's never going to leave me unlike my previous perfect partner
2023: any guesses?
Do we need to be this reductive? He was happy in a relationship but then it got bad and fell apart. That happens, alternative lifestyle or not. I don't see why this implies that his next relationship is unlikely to work out.
I'm certainly not hoping it goes badly for him. I just don't think it's healthy to learn about a source of volatility and then immediately go all-in on the next one.
He certainly seems to have kicked his mental health can down the road. Lots of signals that he is immature in his relationships and perhaps using them as a crutch.
Discussion of that post from 3 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26543527
This article makes me really sad. I know this is just my perspective, but this person isn't living -- they're just existing. What are they striving for? Consuming media?
In the article, he writes about what he is striving for: to be able to do things that he wants to do rather than what his employer wants him to do. So from his perspective, he would be living his life while others just work instead of living.
Yeah - absolutely just my selfish perspective.
I feel like he needs an existential purpose or threat - everyone does. "Doing what I want" isn't a purpose, in my opinion, but rather a void that needs to be filled with something meaningful.
I feel like he needs an existential purpose or threat - everyone does. "Doing what I want" isn't a purpose, in my opinion, but rather a void that needs to be filled with something meaningful.
That's a personal matter. Inside our brain we have two sides - the more primitive brain that just needs safety/food/reproduction/entertainment and the more advanced side that needs to plan and do stuff otherwise it questions it's existence.
People have a different balance of either, so some are happy with just living while others need to do something, anything beyond the basics.
Neither is wrong from a personal point of view - if it makes you happy/fulfilled, that's it.
From a societal perspective those whose primitive brain has more control are seen as useless, however.
People have a different balance of either, so some are happy with just living while others need to do something, anything beyond the basics.
Neither is wrong from a personal point of view - if it makes you happy/fulfilled, that's it.
From a societal perspective those whose primitive brain has more control are seen as useless, however.
Maslow's hierarchy of needs :) I feel like having the food/water/shelter covered isn't enough - fortunate folks eventually hit the self-actualization point. Sounds like the author is now finding more meaning with starting a family (props to him).
The way I read his new job is also giving him a sense of purpose, which, even with all the pleasures of being independent, seems kinda important for the human social being.
Fascinating to see somebody analyze their own life. Seeing what he's written I draw such different conclusions about the underlying causes of the events which passed over the last few years. In particular the way he analyzed his relationship and the fact he still feels somewhat responsible just blows my mind. He's far too hard on himself.
I think he lets himself off the hook… “it’s her problem, she just wanted to keep up with the Jones’s” etc…
Wow.
This is amazing, and so incredibly and refreshingly honest. This helps to repair some of the damage that FIRE bloggers have done to my professional motivation. I have been feeling the isolation during COVID and his description of the isolation than comes from hitting the career off switch really hits home. I have some thinking to do.
This is amazing, and so incredibly and refreshingly honest. This helps to repair some of the damage that FIRE bloggers have done to my professional motivation. I have been feeling the isolation during COVID and his description of the isolation than comes from hitting the career off switch really hits home. I have some thinking to do.
I'd like an update on his back issues. Back issues are often the result of people not dealing with stress in their life. Speaking from personal experience and a huge army of others who have had a similar experience (John Sarno crew).
While you may be correct in the general case, there's a much more obvious cause than stress in his case: Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome.
I thought some more about this. I'd like to know how many people with ED have back issues vs the general population. If the percentage is similar, then it's entirely possible his back issues are rooted in psychological stress.
A summary of the research on the subject as of June 2021 can be found here[1], but I would caution you about the way you're approaching this. It seems like you're letting your hypothesis drive what you want to observe, rather than letting observations drive your hypothesis. That is to say, it seems like you're looking for a connection between stress and back pain, rather than looking at the evidence and letting that tell you what's connected.
There's a pretty clear correlation between specific genes and EDS, and there's a pretty clear connection between EDS and chronic lower back pain ("cLBP" in the study). There's a connection between EDS and "psychological distress" noted, but the authors seem to indicate that EDS is causal in both the psychological distress and the cLBP, not the other way around. There's no noted correlation between psychological distress and cLBP. On the contrary, it seems like psychological distress and cLBP are actually correlated with different variants of EDS.
"Is back pain in an EDS patient caused by stress?" is a valid scientific question, but it's not one that's likely to yield any interesting results if you test it, because so far I see no evidence, even anecdotal, that the two might have a causal relationship. There are higher-priority questions to investigate that are more likely to yield interesting/productive results.
[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8176821/
There's a pretty clear correlation between specific genes and EDS, and there's a pretty clear connection between EDS and chronic lower back pain ("cLBP" in the study). There's a connection between EDS and "psychological distress" noted, but the authors seem to indicate that EDS is causal in both the psychological distress and the cLBP, not the other way around. There's no noted correlation between psychological distress and cLBP. On the contrary, it seems like psychological distress and cLBP are actually correlated with different variants of EDS.
"Is back pain in an EDS patient caused by stress?" is a valid scientific question, but it's not one that's likely to yield any interesting results if you test it, because so far I see no evidence, even anecdotal, that the two might have a causal relationship. There are higher-priority questions to investigate that are more likely to yield interesting/productive results.
[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8176821/
Love your analysis. And I appreciate you cautioning me on my approach. The interesting thing is I believe your attempt to find answers based on data here is the biggest trap there is when looking at back pain. Are structural issues with backs the cause of back pain? In Sarno's book he talks about how people will often feel back pain and then search for an answer. As a result they'll get a bunch of tests done and perhaps find that they have a bulging disk or some other abnormality. Then they assert that the bulging disk is the reason for their pain and perhaps consider some expensive invasive surgery. However, a huge proportion of the population has a bulging disk with no pain associated. Sure it's possible that the ones with pain are different from the ones without. Except back surgery rarely cures the pain and instead leaves people with life altering mobility issues permanently. Sadly it's often difficult for people to deal with psychological issues because they don't know where to begin. They might not even notice the things that bother them because they bury them so deep. In western culture it is much more acceptable to get metal rods shoved into your back than to see a therapist.
Yeah good point
The followup is very much worth the read
This is one of the biggest missing pieces in internet FIRE discussions. So much of the FIRE discourse is about not working that many don’t realize that they’re going to be extremely bored with 16 hours to fill every day. Worse, their friends are all busy with their lives.
It’s actually a common failure point of FIRE post-mittens that didn’t work out. Especially with couples, where it’s more likely that at least one person will realize that maybe jobs, and the sense of purpose and social life that comes with them, aren’t so bad.
The other big issue is that people underestimate their spending in a post-work FIRE lifestyle. It’s tempting to subtract out costs like commuting and work clothes and assume your costs will go down. In practice, if you plan on traveling and spending more time on hobbies your costs are likely to go up.
It’s actually a common failure point of FIRE post-mittens that didn’t work out. Especially with couples, where it’s more likely that at least one person will realize that maybe jobs, and the sense of purpose and social life that comes with them, aren’t so bad.
The other big issue is that people underestimate their spending in a post-work FIRE lifestyle. It’s tempting to subtract out costs like commuting and work clothes and assume your costs will go down. In practice, if you plan on traveling and spending more time on hobbies your costs are likely to go up.
Got to admit that watching people struggle with the question of what to do without a job to fill their time is just completely wild to me. It is difficult for me to imagine someone who has so little they want to do outside of work that they can't easily find ways to fill up the 8+ hours a day their job takes from them. I have a list of things I'd like to do a mile long that I know I'll never actually find time to do because I've prioritized other shit I want to do.
The whole deeply-seated protestant belief that work ethic instills value in life always escapes me as well. There are so many things I'd love to do that don't even require a lot of financial resources or resources in general to accomplish beyond time, but unfortunately, due to needs like having a home and food, I have to work quite a bit and just can't find the time to do these things in those gaps.
I understand the bordem argument but I think that sort of boredom is socially conditioned on us. During my time at university I worked almost constantly. I remember after graduating and getting a job only working 8-hours a day, I suddenly found myself with excess fee time I didn't know what to do with. I distinctively remember my first day returning from work, that I got home and was lost: what do I want to do (not what do I need to do or should do)? I have no papers or assignments due tomorrow. No major project efforts weeks behind I'm trying to catch up on, no looming deadlines, no new tech I need to learn to be ready for the next job, etc.
I came to the realization that I was bored and didn't know what to do because I was conditioned to be constantly busy working, largely for other people and not myself --from my parents, church, schooling, society, and so on. A goal can be for yourself but often the processes to attain said goals are for other people. I chose to do certain aspects because they were interesting but it was more so because I needed to, had to or should do to get to my goal.
I believe most people don't need work to find value in life, they need the time to discover what it is they value, the basic resources to pursue it, and ability to live decently while doing it. Unfortunately, we have an economic system that doesn't really allow for that. There is some choice in our economic system but for many, that choice is an illusion or at best, heavily constrained.
I believe we need to move away from this work tied to life value concept, but I believe too many people currently rely on exploiting this concept to have others create value for themselves while constantly selling the idea of work giving purpose in life so they can pursue their goals without working. The issue isn't that work exists and is needed to maintain certain structure to society, it's more that it's used as shackles on many.
I understand the bordem argument but I think that sort of boredom is socially conditioned on us. During my time at university I worked almost constantly. I remember after graduating and getting a job only working 8-hours a day, I suddenly found myself with excess fee time I didn't know what to do with. I distinctively remember my first day returning from work, that I got home and was lost: what do I want to do (not what do I need to do or should do)? I have no papers or assignments due tomorrow. No major project efforts weeks behind I'm trying to catch up on, no looming deadlines, no new tech I need to learn to be ready for the next job, etc.
I came to the realization that I was bored and didn't know what to do because I was conditioned to be constantly busy working, largely for other people and not myself --from my parents, church, schooling, society, and so on. A goal can be for yourself but often the processes to attain said goals are for other people. I chose to do certain aspects because they were interesting but it was more so because I needed to, had to or should do to get to my goal.
I believe most people don't need work to find value in life, they need the time to discover what it is they value, the basic resources to pursue it, and ability to live decently while doing it. Unfortunately, we have an economic system that doesn't really allow for that. There is some choice in our economic system but for many, that choice is an illusion or at best, heavily constrained.
I believe we need to move away from this work tied to life value concept, but I believe too many people currently rely on exploiting this concept to have others create value for themselves while constantly selling the idea of work giving purpose in life so they can pursue their goals without working. The issue isn't that work exists and is needed to maintain certain structure to society, it's more that it's used as shackles on many.
> There are so many things I'd love to do
Like what?
Like what?
I used to exercise 1-2 hours a day, everyday (I was in great shape), that's gone completely. I'd love to go hiking regularly, that rarely occurs now. I used to spend a decent amount of time doing amature photography, I don't anymore. There's a significant amount of home improvement I'm perfectly capable of doing, in fact, even enjoy aspects of, yet I have to pay others to do it from lack of time. I love gardening but that's completely impossible, I occasionally trim my hedges when they get to be a complete and utter mess. I love exploring music, movies. I took a few piano lessons as a kid and always enjoyed it, I wanted to buy a keyboard awhile back to practice and learn to play several of my favorite works but realized it would be a waste of money because I simply don't have time to learn it. In similar fashion, I've always been a huge fan of Spanish style acoustic guitar--I have no idea if I'd enjoy it or pursue it far but I'd love to at least try. I have friends and family around the country I barely have time to call/text anymore, some within reasonable yet time consuming driving distances--if I had time, I'd strengthen those relationships because they are people I enjoy being around. I've always loved cooking and have learned to make a few recipes over the years that are unique like my many ramen recipes. I rarely have the time to cook and refine recipes for anything remotely complex, usually just on an occasional weekend. I used to do this multiple times per week. My partner is an immigrant and speaks another language, I'd love to have time and capacity to learn that language since they know English, that way I could converse with some of their friends and family easier. I have a whole host of computing related endeavors I'd love to pursue but after work, I frankly don't want to touch anything resembling a computer, including my smartphone. I love biking, I currently drive drive work but could reasonably cycle there, but it's not time efficient, it would add an hour to my commute each day. I actually enjoy volunteering for certain things, especially teaching and tutoring. If I had time, I would (I have done this multiple times in the past but had to stop). I vastly enjoy personal time to explore philosophy and think through ideas, work through new perspectives, and refine my world view--I do this often but had to give up some of that mental capacity and time to work. I actually enjoy aspects of my work, I only wish I did less of the aspects I don't like and cut that time down to share with my other interests because while it's interesting and enjoyable to me, it's only one aspect that's interesting and enjoyable--just so happens to be the one that society pays me the most to share. I even enjoy participating in discussion groups online like this but only read and respond to a few things on occasion. There's a few things, the list goes on.
As to things I've never done but wanted to explore: carpentry. Woodworking always fascinated me and I'd love to try and learn enough to make some furniture for myself, friends, and family, perhaps because this is somethonf my father was skilled at. Could be something I try, hate, and never pursue but the time isn't there.
I do not get bored when I have free time, I always have ideas (and to be clear, motivation to actually act and pursue them--these aren't just 'ideas' they are actualized), unfortunately I have to choose the ones that fit in small time blocks or have the energy after a grueling intense week of dealing with complex yet nonsensical problems at work.
As to things I've never done but wanted to explore: carpentry. Woodworking always fascinated me and I'd love to try and learn enough to make some furniture for myself, friends, and family, perhaps because this is somethonf my father was skilled at. Could be something I try, hate, and never pursue but the time isn't there.
I do not get bored when I have free time, I always have ideas (and to be clear, motivation to actually act and pursue them--these aren't just 'ideas' they are actualized), unfortunately I have to choose the ones that fit in small time blocks or have the energy after a grueling intense week of dealing with complex yet nonsensical problems at work.
Thanks for taking the time to reply. Insightful and I hope you get to achieve a few things in the future :)
> It is difficult for me to imagine someone who has so little they want to do outside of work that they can't easily find ways to fill up the 8+ hours a day their job takes from them
It’s not that simple. I felt the same way before I crossed the FIRE threshold and took some time off (mini-FIRE, I guess).
It turns out, most of the things I had been putting off weren’t as time consuming as I thought. I found myself regretting not doing many of them sooner, such as putting a few hours in on weekdays and weekends or scheduling a 1-week vacation to make a trip happen.
It’s hard to truly understand until you’ve crossed the threshold and tried it, but there’s a certain aspect of FIRE discussions that divides life too much into pre-retirement and post-retirement activities in a way that isn’t always necessary. In retrospect, there was little stopping me from doing most of the things I wanted to do while I was working, and plenty of people do manage to accomplish a balance of work and other things just fine.
I’m not alone in this. Even the author of this blog later returned to work after his interest in his writing hobby slowed to a crawl, his friendships started dwindling, and his relationship came to an end at least in part due to the FIRE lifestyle: https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-u...
It’s not that simple. I felt the same way before I crossed the FIRE threshold and took some time off (mini-FIRE, I guess).
It turns out, most of the things I had been putting off weren’t as time consuming as I thought. I found myself regretting not doing many of them sooner, such as putting a few hours in on weekdays and weekends or scheduling a 1-week vacation to make a trip happen.
It’s hard to truly understand until you’ve crossed the threshold and tried it, but there’s a certain aspect of FIRE discussions that divides life too much into pre-retirement and post-retirement activities in a way that isn’t always necessary. In retrospect, there was little stopping me from doing most of the things I wanted to do while I was working, and plenty of people do manage to accomplish a balance of work and other things just fine.
I’m not alone in this. Even the author of this blog later returned to work after his interest in his writing hobby slowed to a crawl, his friendships started dwindling, and his relationship came to an end at least in part due to the FIRE lifestyle: https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-u...
I think there might be a component here of people able to reasonably achieve FIRE level wealth are already predisposed towards functioning well in the work place, and therefore maybe not so well suited for a life outside of that institution.
When I say I have projects I know I'll never do, I'm talking about the kinds of things that range from "will probably take several years" to "might not be completable in the lifetime I have remaining". Even if each of those things takes an eighth of the time I think they will, I still easily have enough to fill up the rest of my life even if I never do anything purely for the enjoyment of it.
When I say I have projects I know I'll never do, I'm talking about the kinds of things that range from "will probably take several years" to "might not be completable in the lifetime I have remaining". Even if each of those things takes an eighth of the time I think they will, I still easily have enough to fill up the rest of my life even if I never do anything purely for the enjoyment of it.
> It’s not that simple.
It is. I took about 18 months off a few years ago. It was great until I ran out of money.
My main motivator was a very big project (converting a bus to live in) that took a lot of time but after that was done I still did lots of other projects, played video games, and traveled.
In some ways I missed contributing my skills to a team but, other than needing money, I wasn't strongly motivated to go back to work.
It is. I took about 18 months off a few years ago. It was great until I ran out of money.
My main motivator was a very big project (converting a bus to live in) that took a lot of time but after that was done I still did lots of other projects, played video games, and traveled.
In some ways I missed contributing my skills to a team but, other than needing money, I wasn't strongly motivated to go back to work.
> It is. I took about 18 months off a few years ago. It was great until I ran out of money.
I also took a lot of time off, albeit after crossing the threshold of FIRE. My comment was coming from a position of someone who has achieved FIRE.
I also took a lot of time off, albeit after crossing the threshold of FIRE. My comment was coming from a position of someone who has achieved FIRE.
How much time did you take off?
I have more projects than I would have time if I FIREd. I think the main thing is you have to be some form of maker, you can't be just a consumer.
I have so many things I want to build (eg my next vehicle conversion) and a lot of software projects. Then there's the list of things I'd like to learn and places I want to visit.
When my dad retired he actually got busier than when he worked full time. He literally has enough projects to last the rest of his life.
I have more projects than I would have time if I FIREd. I think the main thing is you have to be some form of maker, you can't be just a consumer.
I have so many things I want to build (eg my next vehicle conversion) and a lot of software projects. Then there's the list of things I'd like to learn and places I want to visit.
When my dad retired he actually got busier than when he worked full time. He literally has enough projects to last the rest of his life.
I dunno, I am in the GP camp. I find even the most wasteful pastimes enjoyable, like videogames; recently, I noticed I don't enjoy them as much (compared to e.g. college days or even when I had more relaxing jobs) and after some reflection, realized it's because I have a nagging feeling in the back of my head that I could be spending time better, like working, or training, or reading, or cleaning, or whatever. I.e. I definitely don't find these stale even after 25 years, it's just that I have a tech job, a wife and hobbies, so I don't have time.
And e.g. in college/HS, my results were pretty mediocre (ok, I still got mostly As, but just barely ;)) because I used my "genetic privilege" and built-up "capital" from SOME hard work, I guess, to do the minimum for an A/B, then maximized the time to pursue my own projects or just goof off. I could have probably been a straight-A student but it just never motivated me. In a twisted way in college, it actually helped me professionally, I spent so much time goofing off I realized I have enough time to have a job at the same time :)
I understand not everyone is like that (my wife instantly gets antsy and/or sad without some purpose or if she has a lot of free time), but I'm pretty sure I could fill a few decades at least with each of the things I want to do more, ranging from outdoors to cooking to playing ironman roguelikes to coding... with all of them I could fill centuries if I had the cashflow ;)
And e.g. in college/HS, my results were pretty mediocre (ok, I still got mostly As, but just barely ;)) because I used my "genetic privilege" and built-up "capital" from SOME hard work, I guess, to do the minimum for an A/B, then maximized the time to pursue my own projects or just goof off. I could have probably been a straight-A student but it just never motivated me. In a twisted way in college, it actually helped me professionally, I spent so much time goofing off I realized I have enough time to have a job at the same time :)
I understand not everyone is like that (my wife instantly gets antsy and/or sad without some purpose or if she has a lot of free time), but I'm pretty sure I could fill a few decades at least with each of the things I want to do more, ranging from outdoors to cooking to playing ironman roguelikes to coding... with all of them I could fill centuries if I had the cashflow ;)
It's truly astonishing how many people apparently have a psychological need to be occupied with work in order to find meaning from their life. I can think of nothing better than to finally never have to worry about working just to cover my rent and food.
Being in tech, I've had the privilege to be able to quit my job every few years and take extended sabbaticals. Without fail those breaks have been the best times of my life. Even when I just spent the time "doing nothing" from the point of view of an outsider - not taking up a new hobby, not working on any personal projects, not operating a side-hustle, just sitting around watching the world go by... it was fine. It was better than fine - it was great. It seems bizarre to me that anyone would prefer structured labor to that kind of freedom, but it turns out some people do.
I just wish we had a society that would allow for both types of people to have the life they want.
Being in tech, I've had the privilege to be able to quit my job every few years and take extended sabbaticals. Without fail those breaks have been the best times of my life. Even when I just spent the time "doing nothing" from the point of view of an outsider - not taking up a new hobby, not working on any personal projects, not operating a side-hustle, just sitting around watching the world go by... it was fine. It was better than fine - it was great. It seems bizarre to me that anyone would prefer structured labor to that kind of freedom, but it turns out some people do.
I just wish we had a society that would allow for both types of people to have the life they want.
I don't think most people, except maybe in the EU, experience enough time-off to ever feel what it's like to not be working, and also not be trying to work. Weekends and evenings are barely enough—if they are at all—to catch up with chores and such that accumulated during working hours (that is, unpaid work). Most folks have a couple weeks of vacation, which will tend to be eaten up finally fixing the fence or that dripping faucet or else frantically trying to do some Big Thing (usually some kind of trip) because actual time off is so rare that you don't want to "waste it".
Most people don't get any useful amount of actual free time until they retire. No wonder so many are lost when they do. They've had no practice at it, and have had all their time-requiring interests beaten out of them over decades of the work-week utterly dominating the rhythms of their life.
Most people don't get any useful amount of actual free time until they retire. No wonder so many are lost when they do. They've had no practice at it, and have had all their time-requiring interests beaten out of them over decades of the work-week utterly dominating the rhythms of their life.
> It is difficult for me to imagine someone who has so little they want to do outside of work that they can't easily find ways to fill up the 8+ hours a day their job takes from them.
There are so many things I like to do or would love to do if I didn’t ha RTP work, but I doubt it would be maintainable in the sort of withdraws I see early FIRE people talk about taking. I often have problems figuring out how to afford my hobbies while working.
There are so many things I like to do or would love to do if I didn’t ha RTP work, but I doubt it would be maintainable in the sort of withdraws I see early FIRE people talk about taking. I often have problems figuring out how to afford my hobbies while working.
To add to this, since the work I do at my job aligns very closely to my hobbies, I find that work saps my interest in putting time into said hobbies. If I were able to spend the entirety of my mental capacity on things I _want_ to do, I might do more. Who is to say. As a counterpoint, work can offer opportunities to work with technologies or concepts you might not think of or be able to afford while working on a personal project.
I am in the same boat. I am 6 months into FIRE, and the list of things to do is growing, not shrinking.
However, I would say that some things on the list turn out to be false. That is, I like the idea of doing them, but not enough to actually do it. So do account for some of your post FIRE ideas turning out to be just daydreams you aren't actually committed to.
However, I would say that some things on the list turn out to be false. That is, I like the idea of doing them, but not enough to actually do it. So do account for some of your post FIRE ideas turning out to be just daydreams you aren't actually committed to.
Not something I really have to worry about since, unless I find out I have a fatal disease, FIRE is not a realistic possibility for me.
Care to share a few examples?
I know this feeling of the idea of doing them. I'm conflicted about art (drawing, painting). In some way, I want to be a good painter, on the other hand, there is no painting in me that needs to come out.
I know this feeling of the idea of doing them. I'm conflicted about art (drawing, painting). In some way, I want to be a good painter, on the other hand, there is no painting in me that needs to come out.
For me, it's writing. Exactly as you described painting. Slowly some ideas are forming, but it will be years if ever before I get to it.
It's a completely wild thought to most people. It's one of the reasons why so many people end up struggling with it. "That won't happen to me, no need to make a plan for how to avoid it or make a plan for what to do if it happens, because it's not going to happen."
Obviously not everyone has problems filling their time. But for most people it's difficult to imagine what it'd take to fill years worth of free time, when they've never experienced anything close to having to do that.
Obviously not everyone has problems filling their time. But for most people it's difficult to imagine what it'd take to fill years worth of free time, when they've never experienced anything close to having to do that.
Exactly I have so many hobbies, social opportunities, home improvement projects, chores… that get neglected because the bulk of my time and energy goes to work.
I’ve saved enough to have multiple year breaks in my career and not once was I at a loss for something to do. Quite the opposite, it was apparent exactly how much of my life was being wasted on goals I found uninteresting (at best), all in the name of not starving to death or living on the street.
I’ve saved enough to have multiple year breaks in my career and not once was I at a loss for something to do. Quite the opposite, it was apparent exactly how much of my life was being wasted on goals I found uninteresting (at best), all in the name of not starving to death or living on the street.
I will not be bored when I am not compelled to work.
I was unemployed for six months during the pandemic. Boy did I fail to be bored! I overhauled my garage, building a French cleat system and organizing all of my tools. I built a movie/reading nook for my spouse, with a sliding bookshelf door. I caught up on cutting and splitting firewood for winter. I played board games, cooked, baked, rode bike almost every day, sat in the cool breeze overlooking nature, sat by the fire pit and boy, was I not bored.
I also spent a lot less on clothes and commuting...
I was unemployed for six months during the pandemic. Boy did I fail to be bored! I overhauled my garage, building a French cleat system and organizing all of my tools. I built a movie/reading nook for my spouse, with a sliding bookshelf door. I caught up on cutting and splitting firewood for winter. I played board games, cooked, baked, rode bike almost every day, sat in the cool breeze overlooking nature, sat by the fire pit and boy, was I not bored.
I also spent a lot less on clothes and commuting...
> I overhauled my garage, building a French cleat system and organizing all of my tools. I built a movie/reading nook for my spouse, with a sliding bookshelf door. I caught up on cutting and splitting firewood for winter. I played board games, cooked, baked, rode bike almost every day, sat in the cool breeze overlooking nature, sat by the fire pit and boy, was I not bored.
Your post looks a lot like what I did along side a 40 hour per week job before I reached FIRE. Sure, I couldn’t do it as quickly but it’s not as though having a job is mutually exclusive with riding a bike every day or overhauling the garage on weekends.
One of the biggest things I learned post-FIRE was that doing the things I enjoy wasn’t as difficult as I had come to think while I was employed. There’s something about FIRE blogs that makes it easy to think of activities as pre-FIRE (work) and post-FIRE (fun).
Instead, I’d rather work on balance. Find jobs where 40 hours per week is average and I don’t have to waste time on commuting. Then make time in the evenings and weekends to do things I enjoy.
Your post looks a lot like what I did along side a 40 hour per week job before I reached FIRE. Sure, I couldn’t do it as quickly but it’s not as though having a job is mutually exclusive with riding a bike every day or overhauling the garage on weekends.
One of the biggest things I learned post-FIRE was that doing the things I enjoy wasn’t as difficult as I had come to think while I was employed. There’s something about FIRE blogs that makes it easy to think of activities as pre-FIRE (work) and post-FIRE (fun).
Instead, I’d rather work on balance. Find jobs where 40 hours per week is average and I don’t have to waste time on commuting. Then make time in the evenings and weekends to do things I enjoy.
It's technically true, but also hard to do in reality.
Right now, I barely have time to make coffee before my first meeting. My energy levels after sitting at the computer for 8+ hours are not great. The moments where the weather is "just right" for a lot of activities are severely hampered by the time I must be by the computer.
I know, because I'm way behind on firewood again. There are some mornings where the weather would be OK for it, but they usually don't fall on Saturday for some reason. Or we have plans to go on a camping trip that Saturday, so again I skip that task.
This adds up for each instance of those things. (I've seen it take weeks to build something simple... while unemployed I took on much bigger projects over much shorter time frames.)
Sure, I agree that during your working career seek out jobs that don't overly impede your autonomy. But if you can wipe out 40 hours every week that is doing so, suddenly you have much more freedom.
With that freedom, you spend each day, all day, choosing among the things you want to be doing. While working, it's much harder to take a couple of hours in the evening or your precious weekends, and splitting them up into all the things you want to do, and many of them get left behind.
Right now, I barely have time to make coffee before my first meeting. My energy levels after sitting at the computer for 8+ hours are not great. The moments where the weather is "just right" for a lot of activities are severely hampered by the time I must be by the computer.
I know, because I'm way behind on firewood again. There are some mornings where the weather would be OK for it, but they usually don't fall on Saturday for some reason. Or we have plans to go on a camping trip that Saturday, so again I skip that task.
This adds up for each instance of those things. (I've seen it take weeks to build something simple... while unemployed I took on much bigger projects over much shorter time frames.)
Sure, I agree that during your working career seek out jobs that don't overly impede your autonomy. But if you can wipe out 40 hours every week that is doing so, suddenly you have much more freedom.
With that freedom, you spend each day, all day, choosing among the things you want to be doing. While working, it's much harder to take a couple of hours in the evening or your precious weekends, and splitting them up into all the things you want to do, and many of them get left behind.
> So much of the FIRE discourse is about not working that many don’t realize that they’re going to be extremely bored with 16 hours to fill every day.
People are different, I suppose. Perhaps not in FIRE circles but this is certainly discussed regarding 'normal' retirement, and I don't feel the same way at all. I'm in my twenties, and honestly think I could fill the rest of my life more than once with non-work. Especially if I'm allowed to get paid for doing what I consider to be hobbies rather than work as part of that. At least one of those lifetimes could just be reading!
Do you really find yourself reaching the end of a weekend and thinking Oh thank God I have work tomorrow, I'm so bored?
People are different, I suppose. Perhaps not in FIRE circles but this is certainly discussed regarding 'normal' retirement, and I don't feel the same way at all. I'm in my twenties, and honestly think I could fill the rest of my life more than once with non-work. Especially if I'm allowed to get paid for doing what I consider to be hobbies rather than work as part of that. At least one of those lifetimes could just be reading!
Do you really find yourself reaching the end of a weekend and thinking Oh thank God I have work tomorrow, I'm so bored?
Agreed. To me, FIRE would mean the freedom to spend every day working on problems I think are important and learning stuff that I think is interesting, whether or not a company agrees with me. All with the knowledge that I can stop working at noon or take a month off whenever I need to!
Sounds like you would enjoy academic life!
> Do you really find yourself reaching the end of a weekend and thinking Oh thank God I have work tomorrow, I'm so bored?
The comment above you is channeling the common need to say anything, no matter what it is, in response to an attack on tradition. This is why people in Oregon hear about a proposal to make pumping your own gas legal and respond "but what if somebody doesn't know how?", as if it were difficult to know what would happen in that case.
The comment above you is channeling the common need to say anything, no matter what it is, in response to an attack on tradition. This is why people in Oregon hear about a proposal to make pumping your own gas legal and respond "but what if somebody doesn't know how?", as if it were difficult to know what would happen in that case.
I realise this is a tangent, but what is 'pumping your own gas'? (And if not clear from that answer, why do people in Oregon specifically object? Not from the US.)
Pumping your item gas just means putting fuel in your vehicle yourself instead of letting an attendant do it for you. You're not allowed to do it yourself in Oregon and New Jersey (with, I believe, some exceptions to ensure people can still acquire fuel in circumstances where it's unreasonable or impossible to have an employee to do it for you.)
In the United States, most adults outside dense (or well-planned) cities own their own gas (petrol) powered vehicle. In most places, you go to a gas (petrol) station to refill the tank. In some states, it's illegal (for liability reasons) to do this refilling yourself. An attendant has to come around, collect payment, and refill the tank for you.
Oh! I see, thank you. I was thinking if it's something like methane harvesting like the moped art project on the front page, why would that be Oregon-specific, ha.
Here in the UK (we don't call it gas, so that threw me off, and) not 'pumping your own' is unheard of - payment either self serve at the pump (in the last ~15y anyway, since 'chip & PIN' I suppose), or inside.
Here in the UK (we don't call it gas, so that threw me off, and) not 'pumping your own' is unheard of - payment either self serve at the pump (in the last ~15y anyway, since 'chip & PIN' I suppose), or inside.
> Here in the UK (we don't call it gas, so that threw me off, and) not 'pumping your own' is unheard of - payment either self serve at the pump (in the last ~15y anyway, since 'chip & PIN' I suppose), or inside.
This is also true almost everywhere in the US. Except that we do call it gas. (The word is not directly related to "gas", the phase of matter; it's short for "gasoline", which appears to have originated as a brand name.)
The fact that pumping your own is legal everywhere without any problems doesn't prevent people in Oregon from forecasting dire calamities if the law of Oregon were to change.
This is also true almost everywhere in the US. Except that we do call it gas. (The word is not directly related to "gas", the phase of matter; it's short for "gasoline", which appears to have originated as a brand name.)
The fact that pumping your own is legal everywhere without any problems doesn't prevent people in Oregon from forecasting dire calamities if the law of Oregon were to change.
All the gas stations in OR are full-service, that is, an employee of the gas station will fill your gas tank for you.
I think that's literally about putting the gas line into your tank and pressing the trigger...
> This is one of the biggest missing pieces in internet FIRE discussions. So much of the FIRE discourse is about not working that many don’t realize that they’re going to be extremely bored with 16 hours to fill every day. Worse, their friends are all busy with their lives.
This is a frequent misunderstanding about early 'retirement'. It's not about not working at all. It's about not working for a living. Very important distinction. If tomorrow I'd acquire 'fuck you' money and not have to work, I will quit my job and finally start the book I've been planning for a while now, travel to my home country and build my genealogical tree, volunteer some of my time to the OCCRP or ACLU, etc.. It's not about not working. It's about working on the stuff I really do want to work on, without the threat of scarcity if I don't 'increase shareholder value'.
This is a frequent misunderstanding about early 'retirement'. It's not about not working at all. It's about not working for a living. Very important distinction. If tomorrow I'd acquire 'fuck you' money and not have to work, I will quit my job and finally start the book I've been planning for a while now, travel to my home country and build my genealogical tree, volunteer some of my time to the OCCRP or ACLU, etc.. It's not about not working. It's about working on the stuff I really do want to work on, without the threat of scarcity if I don't 'increase shareholder value'.
For me, quitting work would probably not happen immediately after I get FU money, but it'd happen within that year, I bet.
At first, I'd do a lot more of my hobbies, but then I'd probably move into finally making video games. I'd finally have the time to just sit and play with it. Right now, I don't feel like I have that kind of time, and getting more than 3 hours in a row is hard on weekends, and impossible on week days.
It definitely isn't about not-working. It's about working on what I want to.
At first, I'd do a lot more of my hobbies, but then I'd probably move into finally making video games. I'd finally have the time to just sit and play with it. Right now, I don't feel like I have that kind of time, and getting more than 3 hours in a row is hard on weekends, and impossible on week days.
It definitely isn't about not-working. It's about working on what I want to.
I regular realise that a lot of my bucket list items don't require money and I then go do them.
I have also realised that there's no need to wait to write a book. I've procrastinated for many years and have finally got my act together and I'm writing one.
I have also realised that there's no need to wait to write a book. I've procrastinated for many years and have finally got my act together and I'm writing one.
Those are all fair points and people do write books or do stuff off their bucket list while being happily and gainfully employed.
But people are different and not all jobs are the same. Some people don't have the time or energy [1]. Add the stress of supporting a family, a demanding boss and the fear of losing healthcare along with your job and you'll get to your bucket list either during the scarce vacation days or in your late 50s early 60s (if you're lucky).
This is what FIRE's all about. It's about freedom basically. Money == freedom to do whatever you want to do without fear of losing the bottom of Maslow's pyramid. This is especially valuable in the US, where there is no social safety net.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoon_theory
But people are different and not all jobs are the same. Some people don't have the time or energy [1]. Add the stress of supporting a family, a demanding boss and the fear of losing healthcare along with your job and you'll get to your bucket list either during the scarce vacation days or in your late 50s early 60s (if you're lucky).
This is what FIRE's all about. It's about freedom basically. Money == freedom to do whatever you want to do without fear of losing the bottom of Maslow's pyramid. This is especially valuable in the US, where there is no social safety net.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoon_theory
Boredom is my own personal fear. I hit my FIRE number back in 2018. I was going to retire at N amount or age 45. I hit N pretty early, couldn't pull the trigger, a few more years passed by. Now I'm almost double N due to stock market / money printing inflation. This is approximately 50x my yearly expenses. Ideal situation is 2 to 3 days of work a week, with very few zoom meetings, scrums, or other bullshit.
>Ideal situation is 2 to 3 days of work a week, with very few zoom meetings, scrums, or other bullshit.
Wouldn't it be nice if you could trade pay or hours for avoiding arseache like you can negotiate a salary? Like, "I'll take a 5% salary cut but I'll not be required to attend certain meetings" or "I'll work an extra x hours a week for free but I'll never have touch an Atlassian product ever again".
Wouldn't it be nice if you could trade pay or hours for avoiding arseache like you can negotiate a salary? Like, "I'll take a 5% salary cut but I'll not be required to attend certain meetings" or "I'll work an extra x hours a week for free but I'll never have touch an Atlassian product ever again".
Have you made motions toward your ideal situation? If not, is there anything that makes you hesitate toward making those changes?
I ask because I see many people saying "couldn't pull the trigger" for a variety of reasons, and while I don't think I would have that issue, those people have also said that they didn't think they'd have that issue.
I ask because I see many people saying "couldn't pull the trigger" for a variety of reasons, and while I don't think I would have that issue, those people have also said that they didn't think they'd have that issue.
I would think the most common failure point of FIRE would be the financial independence part.
> extremely bored
Not if you have a hobby (or hobbies) or have an interest in working in art or science or math or with computers… (Did I just say “working”?)
Not if you have a hobby (or hobbies) or have an interest in working in art or science or math or with computers… (Did I just say “working”?)
> This is one of the biggest missing pieces in internet FIRE discussions.
Interesting. Most of discussions I've seen explicitly deal with this, it's probably no2 topic (first being status updates).
And the advice given usually boils down to "don't run away from work, run TOWARDS something", which is perfectly sensible.
Interesting. Most of discussions I've seen explicitly deal with this, it's probably no2 topic (first being status updates).
And the advice given usually boils down to "don't run away from work, run TOWARDS something", which is perfectly sensible.
What I don't get about fire is that I want to enjoy my life equally now and when I am old. I have no issues filling time without getting bored, but I don't feel like wasting any time of my current life in a job I don't really enjoy just so I may enjoy life more later?
However I also believe that fire is a symptom and not a solution. It seems to be mostly popular in countries with little or non existent pension security.
However I also believe that fire is a symptom and not a solution. It seems to be mostly popular in countries with little or non existent pension security.
> However I also believe that fire is a symptom and not a solution. It seems to be mostly popular in countries with little or non existent pension security.
In the US, it's also largely a fantasy thanks to our uniquely-shitty healthcare system, unless you're actually rich. Most of the frugal-FIRE schemes will fall apart as soon as someone in your family gets sick.
In the US, it's also largely a fantasy thanks to our uniquely-shitty healthcare system, unless you're actually rich. Most of the frugal-FIRE schemes will fall apart as soon as someone in your family gets sick.
Hobbies, travel, volunteering, education, projects, consulting - there are a lot of ways to spend your time when you don't need to worry about money for survival. Hell even if you keep working your current job, the knowledge that you don't have to and that you can walk away at any time is extremely liberating. I enjoy what I do, and I'll keep on doing it in some capacity long after I retire, but the "in some capacity" is really key.
I'm 52 and have 2.5MM in an IRA (200k cash) and debt of just a $200k mortgage (and this is weaksauce compared to my peers who all became VPs or C*Os). And the idea of trying to live off an IRA that is currently stocks/bonds/ETFs scares the bejeebers out of me. I think it is more about the personality than the money: do you have the risk-tolerance like this guy to say "fuck it, it will all work out," or are you like me and think, "its still not enough ... inflation is gonna explode ... the market will collapse as soon as i quit ... if i stop working i'll never get hired again because i'm old ... if i retire early i'll probably get in car accident and go broke from medical bills...".
Some of us are just naturally full of panic, others can jump into the mist and be OK with that.
EDIT: Added this scene from Indiana Jones (#3) that has stuck with me my whole life (and I'm an athiest!):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-JIfjNnnMA
Some of us are just naturally full of panic, others can jump into the mist and be OK with that.
EDIT: Added this scene from Indiana Jones (#3) that has stuck with me my whole life (and I'm an athiest!):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-JIfjNnnMA
> do you have the risk-tolerance like this guy to say "fuck it, it will all work out,"
He posted a follow-up blog post years later. Sadly, it didn't work out for him. He had to return to work.
I agree with your general sentiment: Some of these extreme early retirement stories are really pushing the limits reasonable amounts of money to retire with. I don't think it's reasonable for people in their 30s or even 20s to look at their finances and assume their spending will stay constant for the next 6 decades of their lives.
He posted a follow-up blog post years later. Sadly, it didn't work out for him. He had to return to work.
I agree with your general sentiment: Some of these extreme early retirement stories are really pushing the limits reasonable amounts of money to retire with. I don't think it's reasonable for people in their 30s or even 20s to look at their finances and assume their spending will stay constant for the next 6 decades of their lives.
It’s worked out for this guy https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/22/getting-rich-from...
It did workout for him financially (for his own share). It just didn’t workout for him emotionally. Commenter seemed more scared of market exploding and black swan events than the emotional side.
people in 20s and 30s spending usually should go down in retirement, right? Ideally you have no mortgage and depending on your situation save 1.5k-4k a month post-tax right there.
Spending usually looks like a smile curve, high at first (travel, hobbies, toys) then low (done all the things) then high (medical bills).
Same here, this is why my goal is to simply FI not RE.
Once I FI'ed, then I can take whatever job I want based on fun or personal aspiration.
Once I FI'ed, then I can take whatever job I want based on fun or personal aspiration.
Waiting ~6 more years to hit 59.5 so I can try to do exactly this and draw from my IRA w/o penalty. (I did some research into Roth conversion to avoid penalties but you can only withdraw a certain amount and only for certain items, not general expenses.)
Look up the 72t election. You can withdraw from an IRA tax free, no penalty, you just need to set up a schedule. The government wants to encourage saving, and penalizes people from random large withdrawals for impulse buys. Careful, scheduled withdrawals are allowed.
A lot of it depends on your yearly spend. My spend is in the range of 20 to 30K. Its been in that range for years. I'm just not very material-goods oriented (my car is 24 years old). I've done some calculations and I would be OK with a 2000->2008 style downturn, though, a 2000->2013 downturn would be more problematic.
Its not the lifestyle for everyone though, I agree. Though, I do think its prudent for younger people to plan _as if_ they might need to retire early, since the market may decide that they are no longer needed or desirable as workers. Perhaps especially so for tech workers, who already face ageism-based discrimination.
Its not the lifestyle for everyone though, I agree. Though, I do think its prudent for younger people to plan _as if_ they might need to retire early, since the market may decide that they are no longer needed or desirable as workers. Perhaps especially so for tech workers, who already face ageism-based discrimination.
Sorry to hear you operate at such a high baseline anxiety. I certainly hope you've explored every avenue outside addictive medications for getting it under control.
And yes, I think any American should rightfully be terrified of being bankrupted by medical bills. But the world is a big place and a lot of it is much safer than the US.
And yes, I think any American should rightfully be terrified of being bankrupted by medical bills. But the world is a big place and a lot of it is much safer than the US.
Thanks. My therapist has taught me a technique of collecting "past evidence" every time I start to spin-out, and it helps me control it, but I'm not sure I could apply it to such a big thing, yet. We're working on it. But I like his approach more than my friends who are like, "you are better off than 99% of the USA so STFU." Yes, I know that, but it doesn't address the core mental issue(s).
> American should rightfully be terrified of being bankrupted by medical bills
FYI: Retirement accounts are protected from medical bills in many states, even without filing bankruptcy. This varies, and the amount protected, by state. The feds allow one million dollars in an ira to be protected from medical bills if declaring bankruptcy. [0]
[0] https://pocketsense.com/can-ira-pay-medical-bills-7887792.ht...
FYI: Retirement accounts are protected from medical bills in many states, even without filing bankruptcy. This varies, and the amount protected, by state. The feds allow one million dollars in an ira to be protected from medical bills if declaring bankruptcy. [0]
[0] https://pocketsense.com/can-ira-pay-medical-bills-7887792.ht...
How do you get 2.5M in an IRA if they only let you put in 6K a year? Can you buy dogecoin in an IRA?
I've had a 401K since I was 21 (30+ years investing) and put the max in every year following the "normal" investment strategy (balanced mutual funds). And had company matching almost every year as well. This means I invested through the tech boom of the 90's and the recovery of 2008. At one point I left jobs and rolled the 401K into a managed IRA because I didn't have a job for a brief period. Now I have another 401K with another company, but I chose not to roll my original one into the new 401K because my IRA has better investment options.
TL;DR: Start investing as soon as you can, and by "investing" I mean the Warren Buffet way on the diversified mutual fund grid (cap vs valuation), and not this memestock/crypto B.S.
TL;DR: Start investing as soon as you can, and by "investing" I mean the Warren Buffet way on the diversified mutual fund grid (cap vs valuation), and not this memestock/crypto B.S.
If you had a 401k when leaving a job, you can roll that into your IRA. A 401k has much higher limits
so you can put upto 401K into an IRA when you leave?
no, the savings vehicle at many workplaces is called a 401(k) (named after the section of the tax code that describes it). When you leave a job that offered the 401(k) you can take the money that was in it and transfer it to your IRA. This process is called a "rollover". 401(k)s have much higher contribution limits, can have money added to it by the employer (usually via matching contributions) and sometimes have methods to add after tax money to them.
The 6k limit is for a Roth IRA, which is only one kind of IRA.
Seems to apply to both:
> The 2021 limit for contributions to Roth and traditional IRAs is $6,000
https://www.investopedia.com/roth-and-traditional-ira-contri...
> The 2021 limit for contributions to Roth and traditional IRAs is $6,000
https://www.investopedia.com/roth-and-traditional-ira-contri...
The limit for a 401k is higher, which is typically rolled into a traditional IRA.
If it's difficult to envision yourself without work, then you probably put too much of your identity into your work. Maybe that's not a bad thing if you truly love your job, but for most of us that is a huge mistake.
Finding passions outside of work and approaching ideas as a child would is the simplest way to phrase the solution. As a child everything is new and exciting, it's easy to entertain yourself (quite cheaply too), there is less aversion to doing new things than someone who has spent decades being conditioned via a familiar and habitual routine.
Finding passions outside of work and approaching ideas as a child would is the simplest way to phrase the solution. As a child everything is new and exciting, it's easy to entertain yourself (quite cheaply too), there is less aversion to doing new things than someone who has spent decades being conditioned via a familiar and habitual routine.
[deleted]
Ah, I can do this too:
If it's easy to envision yourself without work (or a passionate constructive hobby like art or writing), you're probably not a very interesting person.
If it's easy to envision yourself without work (or a passionate constructive hobby like art or writing), you're probably not a very interesting person.
[deleted]
I find the FIRE folks very interesting. If you read the followup post at https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-u... you will find out that this lifestyle isn't for everyone, or for everyone's partners.
One thing I think the FIRE folks can miss is the sense of worth, improvement in personal power and confidence that comes from struggling. Struggling could be making things, building a business, learning job skills, writing a novel, whatever. However, 5 years of just 'I checked my investments, I'm in within 1% of nominal, I guess I should feel no stress right now!' shouldn't be the end; many people interested in this lifestyle seem to feel like they have arrived when they can do that. As a launch point, it has its benefits. But to my mind, it shouldn't ever be thought of as a goal in itself.
I read the follow up post as a sort of tacit admission that the FIRE lifestyle can lead to this huge gap in personal development, and often during really key years for relationship and brain development, 30s and 40s are super prime years for learning and applying learning. It seems like a terrible waste to spend it sitting on one's metaphorical porch, sipping tea.
One thing I think the FIRE folks can miss is the sense of worth, improvement in personal power and confidence that comes from struggling. Struggling could be making things, building a business, learning job skills, writing a novel, whatever. However, 5 years of just 'I checked my investments, I'm in within 1% of nominal, I guess I should feel no stress right now!' shouldn't be the end; many people interested in this lifestyle seem to feel like they have arrived when they can do that. As a launch point, it has its benefits. But to my mind, it shouldn't ever be thought of as a goal in itself.
I read the follow up post as a sort of tacit admission that the FIRE lifestyle can lead to this huge gap in personal development, and often during really key years for relationship and brain development, 30s and 40s are super prime years for learning and applying learning. It seems like a terrible waste to spend it sitting on one's metaphorical porch, sipping tea.
I agree. The author blamed his former partner's unhappiness—in her own words, a feeling like they weren't "going anywhere," like there was no "forward progress," like there was no longer a "sense of momentum"—the author chalks all this up to a "pressure to keep up with the mythical Joneses" and to the idea that she is simply "wired to be like everyone else."
It takes him a year and a half to realize that maybe goals and purpose matter: "without my former partner, I became depressed and anxious and again struggled with one of the great questions that terrorizes us all: Purpose."
It takes him a year and a half to realize that maybe goals and purpose matter: "without my former partner, I became depressed and anxious and again struggled with one of the great questions that terrorizes us all: Purpose."
As a side note: I think the author probably is still getting it wrong on a certain level. He concludes that "[t]he most important cog in the machinery of my personal happiness turned out to be a simple one: Having a wonderful partner." This exemplifies an unhealthy relationship with boundaries and a disposition toward codependency.
To be fair, he also acknowledges that "money doesn’t make you happy. People do. Connections and relationships do. Purpose helps, too." Those are all true. But going so far as to make someone else "the most important cog" is problematic, as the author had a chance to learn. Making someone else responsible for your personal happiness puts an enormous amount of pressure on them, and infidelity is a predictable (though morally wrong) reaction to a relationship of dependency.
The author still doesn't "get it" looking back: his "one regret" is that he "didn’t take [his] partner’s initial unhappiness more seriously." But he describes how seriously he did take it: "I encouraged her to explore her own life and find activities and goals that would help her feel better. I suggested therapy and offered to go with her. I was clear that if she wanted to go back to work I was eager to support her in this. I wanted her to do anything that might help."
He concludes: "my suggestions and support weren’t enough — I never could figure out what she wanted or how I could help." But this is just more of the same problematic dynamic re: boundaries. It wasn't his job to fix his partner or to make her happy any more than it's fair to make the other person responsible for his own happiness.
On the other hand, he's currently "not so much worried about a life without work as I am a life without meaning or purpose or love" and making those "exist in harmony, and without a ton of financial stress." And that's about all any of us can hope for. I hope he stays focused on finding meaning (outside having a particular person feel positively about him!) for the long haul.
To be fair, he also acknowledges that "money doesn’t make you happy. People do. Connections and relationships do. Purpose helps, too." Those are all true. But going so far as to make someone else "the most important cog" is problematic, as the author had a chance to learn. Making someone else responsible for your personal happiness puts an enormous amount of pressure on them, and infidelity is a predictable (though morally wrong) reaction to a relationship of dependency.
The author still doesn't "get it" looking back: his "one regret" is that he "didn’t take [his] partner’s initial unhappiness more seriously." But he describes how seriously he did take it: "I encouraged her to explore her own life and find activities and goals that would help her feel better. I suggested therapy and offered to go with her. I was clear that if she wanted to go back to work I was eager to support her in this. I wanted her to do anything that might help."
He concludes: "my suggestions and support weren’t enough — I never could figure out what she wanted or how I could help." But this is just more of the same problematic dynamic re: boundaries. It wasn't his job to fix his partner or to make her happy any more than it's fair to make the other person responsible for his own happiness.
On the other hand, he's currently "not so much worried about a life without work as I am a life without meaning or purpose or love" and making those "exist in harmony, and without a ton of financial stress." And that's about all any of us can hope for. I hope he stays focused on finding meaning (outside having a particular person feel positively about him!) for the long haul.
Furthermore, he posted in a comment one year after the article of this thread:
> I still haven’t found anything in life that really pulls at me other than basic day to day stuff. Honestly I’m pretty content with consistent, enjoyable routines with occasional novelty (travel, a trip to an old arcade, etc) thrown into the mix. I thought by now that I’d feel passionate about — something? That I’d have a pull in one direction or another. But it’s absent — the drive to really want to do something new that requires a lot of effort is just not there.
> I still haven’t found anything in life that really pulls at me other than basic day to day stuff. Honestly I’m pretty content with consistent, enjoyable routines with occasional novelty (travel, a trip to an old arcade, etc) thrown into the mix. I thought by now that I’d feel passionate about — something? That I’d have a pull in one direction or another. But it’s absent — the drive to really want to do something new that requires a lot of effort is just not there.
I did it: I retired at age 40 with a net worth of about $5M. That was eight years ago. I diversified most of it, but I made two concentrated bets with a fraction and both of them were home runs. Now I'm above $5M. I have enough money to do whatever I want and my withdrawal rate is less than 1% annually. (I don't have expensive or flasy taste.)
One of the things that I didn't expect (but that this article and some other sources hint at) is that I would fall into a trap of consuming a lot of alcohol. I recognized my problem and dealt with it. Now almost every day is alcohol-free, and I only drink when with other people who are also drinking. (For anyone struggling with a drinking problem, I urge you to try something called the Sinclair Method, which involves taking naltrexone or nalmefene. [1][2])
I don't really have much of a fixed address and spend 95% of my time abroad. I usually like to stay in a place for several months or more at a time. This sometimes involves long-term visas. Throwing money at immigration attorneys will solve a lot of those kinds of problems. Many countries have visa programs for self-employed or self-sufficient people. If not, you can always enroll in a language program and get a student visa to study the language of your host country.
I also spend several months a year just traveling around to new places and visiting old friends.
I enjoy my life. Sometimes at moments I miss my job in Silicon Valley. Then I realize how much grief and pressure it was, and I'm thankful for the life I have.
At this article's author states: you have to know what you are going to fill your life with once you leave the working world. If you don't fill it with something positive, negative things will fill in.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Cure-Alcoholism-Medically-Eliminate-A... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EghiY_s2ts
One of the things that I didn't expect (but that this article and some other sources hint at) is that I would fall into a trap of consuming a lot of alcohol. I recognized my problem and dealt with it. Now almost every day is alcohol-free, and I only drink when with other people who are also drinking. (For anyone struggling with a drinking problem, I urge you to try something called the Sinclair Method, which involves taking naltrexone or nalmefene. [1][2])
I don't really have much of a fixed address and spend 95% of my time abroad. I usually like to stay in a place for several months or more at a time. This sometimes involves long-term visas. Throwing money at immigration attorneys will solve a lot of those kinds of problems. Many countries have visa programs for self-employed or self-sufficient people. If not, you can always enroll in a language program and get a student visa to study the language of your host country.
I also spend several months a year just traveling around to new places and visiting old friends.
I enjoy my life. Sometimes at moments I miss my job in Silicon Valley. Then I realize how much grief and pressure it was, and I'm thankful for the life I have.
At this article's author states: you have to know what you are going to fill your life with once you leave the working world. If you don't fill it with something positive, negative things will fill in.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Cure-Alcoholism-Medically-Eliminate-A... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EghiY_s2ts
How did you acquire the initial $5M? Sell a start-up? Lucky investment? Or did you have a high salary?
I had employee stock options in two companies that had a high growth rate. I lived very simply and saved more than half my take-home pay. I did have a high salary.
One thing we've lost in the transition to two-earner families with the expectation that everyone has a career is exactly what's coming up in this thread:
1) People derive a lot of meaning from their interactions with other people.
2) For most people (at least, most people reading blogs like this) today, that meaning comes from employment, from the exchange of time for money in the service of others.
But pre-television, and in many parts of the world still today, people gather socially for many reasons other than the strict definition of work above.
The rat in the race doesn't know what to do when the race is over, because all the other rats are still in the race, and he's never been outside before.
The list in this post is about how to make the outside world look like the race you just left: Do things! Find people to do them with! Get out of your comfort zone!
These are mechanisms for people without strong social and community ties to fill their time.
I would encourage anyone in this situation to consider what aspects of their prior race-like lives they would like to lose first, and to find communities they would like to belong to. Some of those many be activity-oriented, and there's nothing wrong with that, but they don't have to be interesting activities.
1) People derive a lot of meaning from their interactions with other people.
2) For most people (at least, most people reading blogs like this) today, that meaning comes from employment, from the exchange of time for money in the service of others.
But pre-television, and in many parts of the world still today, people gather socially for many reasons other than the strict definition of work above.
The rat in the race doesn't know what to do when the race is over, because all the other rats are still in the race, and he's never been outside before.
The list in this post is about how to make the outside world look like the race you just left: Do things! Find people to do them with! Get out of your comfort zone!
These are mechanisms for people without strong social and community ties to fill their time.
I would encourage anyone in this situation to consider what aspects of their prior race-like lives they would like to lose first, and to find communities they would like to belong to. Some of those many be activity-oriented, and there's nothing wrong with that, but they don't have to be interesting activities.
> The rat in the race doesn't know what to do when the race is over, because all the other rats are still in the race, and he's never been outside before.
Enlightening. Thank you.
Enlightening. Thank you.
work - noun - activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result.
The flip side to this is, as a society, we should probably start paying for all the unpaid societal work people do for free. IMO this is the best argument for something like UBI.
There is a term for this kind of work: cottage industry.
My understanding is that it isn't captured by most standard economic measures, like GDP.
My understanding is that it isn't captured by most standard economic measures, like GDP.
My plan is to at least take the next year off to think things through. I don't have nearly enough money for an early retirement, so this will have to be it for now.
But anyway, an interesting thing happened. I am in talks to buy a small cheap piece of land that needs a lot of work. And suddenly I had all these ideas of what I could do there once I clean it up. Not only gardening again, but hobbies, learning new things etc. Basically all the things I want to do now, of which I just occasionally get to some of them, but am otherwise to drained to really get to it. So it's not about not working, it's not about not doing anything, I think I would die if it was like that. It's about doing something meaningful or at least something I don't feel is 60% BS.
But anyway, an interesting thing happened. I am in talks to buy a small cheap piece of land that needs a lot of work. And suddenly I had all these ideas of what I could do there once I clean it up. Not only gardening again, but hobbies, learning new things etc. Basically all the things I want to do now, of which I just occasionally get to some of them, but am otherwise to drained to really get to it. So it's not about not working, it's not about not doing anything, I think I would die if it was like that. It's about doing something meaningful or at least something I don't feel is 60% BS.
"What will you do with your time?"
How many of you really have a problem answering that? Am I the only lucky one who's got a gazillion projects I want to finish all at once???
How many of you really have a problem answering that? Am I the only lucky one who's got a gazillion projects I want to finish all at once???
if you got more than four paragraphs down you would read
> If you are one of these people, congratulations. You’ve already got the answers you need. Although you may be retiring FROM something, you’re also very clear on what you’re retiring TO. You can stop reading right now.
> If you are one of these people, congratulations. You’ve already got the answers you need. Although you may be retiring FROM something, you’re also very clear on what you’re retiring TO. You can stop reading right now.
Got stuff to do, so naturally I stopped reading a lot sooner.
I think it helped me a lot to "practice" by living on nothing but saved money for 6-12 month periods a couple of times earlier in life. I always found myself very happy and with plenty of exciting things to do during these periods, so when I finally left the rat race for real I knew exactly how I wanted to structure my life.
After growing tired of modern software development practices a few years ago, I just quit my job. I had no plan on going back to work (although I did after 18 months), and I had no plan on what I was going to do other than improve my math skills (which I did to some small degree) and learn to touch type (which I did not do).
What I really learned is that my digestion problems and benign heart rhythm issues got a lot better during this period. I also just enjoyed parking my car in various locations within 20-40 minutes of my home and just reading, or studying, or listening to music.
What I really learned is that my digestion problems and benign heart rhythm issues got a lot better during this period. I also just enjoyed parking my car in various locations within 20-40 minutes of my home and just reading, or studying, or listening to music.
>After growing tired of modern software development practices
I'm curious to know what practices pushed you over the edge.
I sometimes struggle to keep emotional distance from work, especially when I feel that others are making our collective effort less effective. I have to remind myself sometimes that I don't actually need to care. At the same time, I wonder if I would be happier starting my own thing, and calling the shots. Of course, then I would have to care.
I'm curious to know what practices pushed you over the edge.
I sometimes struggle to keep emotional distance from work, especially when I feel that others are making our collective effort less effective. I have to remind myself sometimes that I don't actually need to care. At the same time, I wonder if I would be happier starting my own thing, and calling the shots. Of course, then I would have to care.
In recent years, and at multiple companies, I find there are simply far too many things that require at least some of my attention going on at the same time. Collaboration tools like Slack seem to encourage an interrupt-driven environment. Even when things happen serially, they happen at a mad rush (in the name of velocity). I have little time to reflect or gain perspective.
Combine that with the fact the software has way more moving parts and integration points than it used to. Not only has velocity ramped up, but so has the number of possible interactions you need to consider. Improved testing techniques (unit tests, automated pre-commit tests, and integration tests) mitigate this quite a bit, but it doesn't fully compensate, especially since some of the "velocity" infrastructure itself is quite complex and can sometimes make a simple thing very difficult: I often find myself trying to work around flaky infrastructure.
Most of my coworkers seem unfazed, so I think I just have the wrong constitution. I think also most companies really have no choice anymore but to operate in this manner.
Combine that with the fact the software has way more moving parts and integration points than it used to. Not only has velocity ramped up, but so has the number of possible interactions you need to consider. Improved testing techniques (unit tests, automated pre-commit tests, and integration tests) mitigate this quite a bit, but it doesn't fully compensate, especially since some of the "velocity" infrastructure itself is quite complex and can sometimes make a simple thing very difficult: I often find myself trying to work around flaky infrastructure.
Most of my coworkers seem unfazed, so I think I just have the wrong constitution. I think also most companies really have no choice anymore but to operate in this manner.
> benign heart rhythm issues
Hey, I have these, and don't know anyone else who does. Could you tell me more? Email is in my profile, if you prefer.
Hey, I have these, and don't know anyone else who does. Could you tell me more? Email is in my profile, if you prefer.
I've been on a 1-year sabbatical as of 4 June 2021. Not the exact same as early retirement but I bet the motivations / experiences probably have parallels. I'll note my own responses as someone 1-month into a period of no work:
> Let’s talk a bit about the idea of loss. Having a sense of loss is not restricted to things that you like or love.
I don't feel that much yet, but intuitively I see how it might creep up in the coming months.
> When most people ask you what you’re going to do with your free time, they typically see you sitting at home, alone, in an empty space.
Personally, I absolutely do not have that problem and is probably why I knew I could take the leap. There is SO much that I want to do and work on, I don't even think a year is enough time.
> folks who cruise into post-employment life with a firm vision of how things are going to look tend to do better.
One thing that's helping me a lot is that I pick a focus for each week. Last week I worked on my grandpa's autobiography (he told me stories and I turned it into a coherent chronological text and I'm now in the process of making a website out of all the stories, supplemented with historical photos). One week is a decent amount of time to make progress and then by the end of the week I start to get bored and get to transition to something else which keeps it exciting and fun. I also lined up a long list of goals before the sabbatical started.
> My favorite method was created by Ernie Zelinski, author of several early-retirement lifestyle books.
I'm not seeing anything on this author. Does anyone have a link to his most popular work?
> We sort of know what we want to do, but when given a full day with no obligations, it’s common for us to fritter hours away.
So far, this is not as much of a problem for me as I expected. It's not hard to focus on things that are interesting to me. I'm actually more aware of wasteful habits (Instagram, HN) because I know that I only have a year to really do all this sabbatical stuff.
[1] https://kayce.basqu.es/sabbatical/prologue
> Let’s talk a bit about the idea of loss. Having a sense of loss is not restricted to things that you like or love.
I don't feel that much yet, but intuitively I see how it might creep up in the coming months.
> When most people ask you what you’re going to do with your free time, they typically see you sitting at home, alone, in an empty space.
Personally, I absolutely do not have that problem and is probably why I knew I could take the leap. There is SO much that I want to do and work on, I don't even think a year is enough time.
> folks who cruise into post-employment life with a firm vision of how things are going to look tend to do better.
One thing that's helping me a lot is that I pick a focus for each week. Last week I worked on my grandpa's autobiography (he told me stories and I turned it into a coherent chronological text and I'm now in the process of making a website out of all the stories, supplemented with historical photos). One week is a decent amount of time to make progress and then by the end of the week I start to get bored and get to transition to something else which keeps it exciting and fun. I also lined up a long list of goals before the sabbatical started.
> My favorite method was created by Ernie Zelinski, author of several early-retirement lifestyle books.
I'm not seeing anything on this author. Does anyone have a link to his most popular work?
> We sort of know what we want to do, but when given a full day with no obligations, it’s common for us to fritter hours away.
So far, this is not as much of a problem for me as I expected. It's not hard to focus on things that are interesting to me. I'm actually more aware of wasteful habits (Instagram, HN) because I know that I only have a year to really do all this sabbatical stuff.
[1] https://kayce.basqu.es/sabbatical/prologue
The author of the blog post followed up with a post-mortem of his FIRE experience several years later: https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-u...
The TL;DR is that it was great for the first few years. He started diving deep into his writing passion and notes that he was very happy. Later, his writing hobby slowed and his partner became increasingly dissatisfied with their retirement lifestyle. Sadly, he talks about slowly losing friendships, losing interest in his writing, and eventually losing his marriage over FIRE-related lifestyle choices. I'm sorry it didn't work out for him, but it's an interesting contrast to this prior post about how he imagined his FIRE lifestyle.
The TL;DR is that it was great for the first few years. He started diving deep into his writing passion and notes that he was very happy. Later, his writing hobby slowed and his partner became increasingly dissatisfied with their retirement lifestyle. Sadly, he talks about slowly losing friendships, losing interest in his writing, and eventually losing his marriage over FIRE-related lifestyle choices. I'm sorry it didn't work out for him, but it's an interesting contrast to this prior post about how he imagined his FIRE lifestyle.
Some of that is probably just the age-group. I've become disconnected from many of my friends over the past 10 years as well, and I certainly haven't retired.
I hope I have this problem some day. Retirement seems a long, long, long way off. Feeling the rat race pretty intensely the last 5 years.
I feel you. I don't know if it is the pandemic or I've just reached mid-life-crisis age, but I'm so ready to not be working that I'm considering just quitting right now and killing myself when the money eventually runs out.
I recently played out this scenario where I run out of money and then just end myself instead of begging. I concluded that I'm extremely likely to be doing something meaningful and would rather have the survival money. So that's what I'm focused on now - working on my bucket list, moving towards meaningful activities already and figuring out how much I'd need to becoming financially independent. The Bogleheads website has proven useful.
Edit: My message for those who think that killing themselves might be a reasonable choice: There are those who wish for just that one extra day for meaningful work or to be with their loved ones. While not all may have loved ones, a person could find something meaningful to do. For those who like the Marvel movies, I think Tony Stark ended up doing rather well with the gift of life that he'd received in the first Iron Man movie. Another inspiring quote for me was from the Star Trek movie: "Your father was captain for a total of 20 minutes. In those 20 minutes, he saved 800 lives. I dare you to do better".
Edit: My message for those who think that killing themselves might be a reasonable choice: There are those who wish for just that one extra day for meaningful work or to be with their loved ones. While not all may have loved ones, a person could find something meaningful to do. For those who like the Marvel movies, I think Tony Stark ended up doing rather well with the gift of life that he'd received in the first Iron Man movie. Another inspiring quote for me was from the Star Trek movie: "Your father was captain for a total of 20 minutes. In those 20 minutes, he saved 800 lives. I dare you to do better".
> For those who like the Marvel movies, I think Tony Stark ended up doing rather well with the gift of life that he'd received in the first Iron Man movie.
A fictional superhuman-level engineer may not be the best example you could use here.
A fictional superhuman-level engineer may not be the best example you could use here.
I think the point is that Stark wasn’t shown having extensive personal friendships, family life, etc. - but he used what he did have (technical ability) to do meaningful work. Obviously, the scope of that work is fantastical, but what’s the point of storytelling if we don’t take inspiration from our characters?
Well it's a lot easier to find meaningful work when one has superhuman abilities. Unlike many in our industry, I am not deluded enough to believe that my talents are particularly special. Further, since I'm not a billionaire like Stark, I have to find a job that I can support myself with foremost, which means meaningfulness takes a back seat. It is very unlikely I would be able to find both.
I don’t have any meaningful technical abilities, but I have a job that lets me help people, invest in their futures, and generally live my values. I only
make about 45k at age 35 and will never FIRE. So it goes.
Stark is not inspiring to me - but I believe having inspirations is important. Why throw cold water on that because it doesn’t resonate with you.
Stark is not inspiring to me - but I believe having inspirations is important. Why throw cold water on that because it doesn’t resonate with you.
please don't kill yourself, there needs to be more people being fed up for things to move, not less :)
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This seems unethical to me, you essentially make other people work for you. All the returns from your investments are created by someone who probably does not have the luxury of retiring early, someone who now not only has to work for their life but also for yours.
That's not how the math works out, at least in theory. There are several principles going on:
1. You defer consumption today to instead spend it tomorrow. If you create $100K in value in a year, but only spend $50K of it, shouldn't you be able to instead spend most of that $50K in the future? Our whole retirement system is predicated on this.
2. If you take some of the wealth produced today, and instead of immediately consuming it, you "invest" it in something that enables more wealth produced tomorrow than otherwise would have been possible, you should be rewarded with some of that extra wealth produced.
3. Time value of money. Loaning your money or investing it carries a risk. If there is some chance that you may not get it all back, then there must be a premium charged to whomever wants to use your wealth today. Otherwise, you might as well spend it all as soon as you receive it.
1. You defer consumption today to instead spend it tomorrow. If you create $100K in value in a year, but only spend $50K of it, shouldn't you be able to instead spend most of that $50K in the future? Our whole retirement system is predicated on this.
2. If you take some of the wealth produced today, and instead of immediately consuming it, you "invest" it in something that enables more wealth produced tomorrow than otherwise would have been possible, you should be rewarded with some of that extra wealth produced.
3. Time value of money. Loaning your money or investing it carries a risk. If there is some chance that you may not get it all back, then there must be a premium charged to whomever wants to use your wealth today. Otherwise, you might as well spend it all as soon as you receive it.
1. You defer consumption today to instead spend it tomorrow. If you create $100K in value in a year, but only spend $50K of it, shouldn't you be able to instead spend most of that $50K in the future? Our whole retirement system is predicated on this.
Sure, you are spending what you earned. And if that is what you are doing, living a less expensive life so that you can finance your entire life with fewer working years, then that is perfectly fine. Probably even worth encouraging as this probably means you are consuming fewer resources.
2. If you take some of the wealth produced today, and instead of immediately consuming it, you "invest" it in something that enables more wealth produced tomorrow than otherwise would have been possible, you should be rewarded with some of that extra wealth produced.
3. Time value of money. Loaning your money or investing it carries a risk. If there is some chance that you may not get it all back, then there must be a premium charged to whomever wants to use your wealth today. Otherwise, you might as well spend it all as soon as you receive it.
In principle I agree, you should be compensated for deferred spending and incurred risk. But something must still be wrong as the outcome makes no sense. If I had to guess, I would maybe suggest systematic overcompensation, i.e. maybe the expected return should actually be exactly zero. But this is impossible to do and then there would be no incentives to invest, so the target becomes positive expected returns.
But as soon as the expected returns become positive you enter the territory of exponential growth which is not sustainable. At the very least returns should eventually drop to zero when the invested money has been multiplied so often that there is no more demand for investments. And all the time you are probably creating huge inequality and with this inequality one might also end up with a distribution of power where some can essentially demand further returns even if they should actually be zero.
In the end I have to admit that I can not truly point my finger to the issue, yes compensation for investments sounds reasonable if you discuss it on its own, but if you look at the consequences at large things do not match up. Your money does no actual work, it creates no value on its own, why should it still allow you to live without working?
Sure, you are spending what you earned. And if that is what you are doing, living a less expensive life so that you can finance your entire life with fewer working years, then that is perfectly fine. Probably even worth encouraging as this probably means you are consuming fewer resources.
2. If you take some of the wealth produced today, and instead of immediately consuming it, you "invest" it in something that enables more wealth produced tomorrow than otherwise would have been possible, you should be rewarded with some of that extra wealth produced.
3. Time value of money. Loaning your money or investing it carries a risk. If there is some chance that you may not get it all back, then there must be a premium charged to whomever wants to use your wealth today. Otherwise, you might as well spend it all as soon as you receive it.
In principle I agree, you should be compensated for deferred spending and incurred risk. But something must still be wrong as the outcome makes no sense. If I had to guess, I would maybe suggest systematic overcompensation, i.e. maybe the expected return should actually be exactly zero. But this is impossible to do and then there would be no incentives to invest, so the target becomes positive expected returns.
But as soon as the expected returns become positive you enter the territory of exponential growth which is not sustainable. At the very least returns should eventually drop to zero when the invested money has been multiplied so often that there is no more demand for investments. And all the time you are probably creating huge inequality and with this inequality one might also end up with a distribution of power where some can essentially demand further returns even if they should actually be zero.
In the end I have to admit that I can not truly point my finger to the issue, yes compensation for investments sounds reasonable if you discuss it on its own, but if you look at the consequences at large things do not match up. Your money does no actual work, it creates no value on its own, why should it still allow you to live without working?
I'm not sure the common alternative for higher-income people is more ethical - spending on vacation homes, expensive private schools, buying new cars, clothing, appliances, etc when the old ones are a little outdated but still usable.
From the point of job creation, this does make more jobs, but I think there's a strong argument to be made for living a lower-impact life that lets you live on your savings after a shorter career.
And as for return on investments, are you suggesting that investing in the stock market is immoral? I'm not sure I follow your logic about how buying shares in a company and benefitting from dividends is immoral, or maybe you had something else in mind.
From the point of job creation, this does make more jobs, but I think there's a strong argument to be made for living a lower-impact life that lets you live on your savings after a shorter career.
And as for return on investments, are you suggesting that investing in the stock market is immoral? I'm not sure I follow your logic about how buying shares in a company and benefitting from dividends is immoral, or maybe you had something else in mind.
It seems like an ethical move if you agree with Peter Thiel's model of stagnant US. Since we don't grow anymore, the only way for advancement is for others to step aside. We're not creating new spots from expansion like in the 50s. So taking up high earning spots to accumulate above self sustaining amount is taking jobs from others that haven't reached their FIRE number (which could be seen as unethical).
This doesn't apply to new/growing fields like tech.
> It’s been a lifelong dream of mine to quit my current career and take something lower paying and more meaningful: teaching or contributing to a non-profit.
That's me. I'm working for free, and happier n' a pig in poop.
That's me. I'm working for free, and happier n' a pig in poop.
Society which values work will outcompete the one which does not. You and people around you aren't the only ones on this planet, there are highly motivated people elsewhere who will gladly put in effort to take your place.
> who will gladly put in effort to take your place.
That sounds completely alien to my experience. I go on vacation around 2 months a year. I work only the stipulated hours. And I have a great job, with great conditions, working with amazing people, learning things and having fun.
This kind of mindset and approach to life gives me a peace of mind that allows me to have meaningful discussions, to mediate in disagreements and to not be too invested so I can easily adapt to new circumstances. Working "harder" just creates a tunnel vision, maybe is ok if your job is to sit in a chair and do nothing. But for any job that requires mind or body to be in shape, you need vacations and take it easy to perform at top capacity.
On the other side if it really as you say and everything is about competition, then investing so much in just your job is going to make you lose at the rest of non-work competitions in live. But, I do not think that this is true.
That sounds completely alien to my experience. I go on vacation around 2 months a year. I work only the stipulated hours. And I have a great job, with great conditions, working with amazing people, learning things and having fun.
This kind of mindset and approach to life gives me a peace of mind that allows me to have meaningful discussions, to mediate in disagreements and to not be too invested so I can easily adapt to new circumstances. Working "harder" just creates a tunnel vision, maybe is ok if your job is to sit in a chair and do nothing. But for any job that requires mind or body to be in shape, you need vacations and take it easy to perform at top capacity.
On the other side if it really as you say and everything is about competition, then investing so much in just your job is going to make you lose at the rest of non-work competitions in live. But, I do not think that this is true.
> Society which values work will outcompete the one which does not.
Why should one care about helping one "society" at the expense of another?
> there are highly motivated people elsewhere who will gladly put in effort to take your place
If I already have enough to be happy they're welcome to do so.
Why should one care about helping one "society" at the expense of another?
> there are highly motivated people elsewhere who will gladly put in effort to take your place
If I already have enough to be happy they're welcome to do so.
why should we compete? what does "victory" amount to? i'd gladly give up winning in favour of some form of survival guarantee and freedom to choose work rather than require it for survival.
You're thinking of this from the wrong point of view. This is about evolution and dominance. A culture in which work is highly valued (even so far as at the expense of the individual) will expand and squeeze out other cultures. The same way a successful gene will reproduce and take over.
Two excellent books that delve into this area are "Stumbling on Happiness" and "Sapiens".
Two excellent books that delve into this area are "Stumbling on Happiness" and "Sapiens".
i think "evolution" is not some purely natural process that plays out separately from how we think. e.g. forming societies where we support and elevate each other instead of competing is also a potential evolutionary future. societies where whatever means are necessary _results_ in an evolutionary advantage will "win", not those who necessarily work harder. capitalism-driven competition is just gamification of exploitation and doesn't inherently lead to an evolutionary advantage. it's just one of many ways to get there.
Outcompete in what sense? Certainly more working can lead to more of something, but I’m not sure we all agree on what that something is, and whether or not all of it is valuable (or even whether a significant amount is something to avoid).
[deleted]
“Industry, thrift and self-control are not sought because they create wealth, but because they create character.” - Calvin Coolidge
Work, if executed correctly, has a purpose: personal development. It is hard to fulfill this endeavor by spending your most productive years in retirement.
The "freedom" and "F the man" movements (crypto, 4HWW, FIRE, MLM, Kiyosaki, etc.) are all missing this essential ingredient of the human experience.
Work, if executed correctly, has a purpose: personal development. It is hard to fulfill this endeavor by spending your most productive years in retirement.
The "freedom" and "F the man" movements (crypto, 4HWW, FIRE, MLM, Kiyosaki, etc.) are all missing this essential ingredient of the human experience.
I haven’t had a job in nine months now and between waking up whenever I want to and finally trying the things I’ve always had in my head to make a little money here and there, I don’t know how I would go back to a regular job. Sure on paper I make about half of what I used to make, But damn my stress level is low and days are nice
I retired 1 month prior to Covid, road it out and then moved to a new city across the country. I've been busy mostly every day, have lost 25 lbs, and have never looked back at having a full time job. My philosophy is: set goals and you will exceed them.
I saw "FIRE" in several comments, had to look it up:
> "Financial Independence, Retire Early (FIRE) Definition
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/financial-independence-...
Followers of FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early) plan to retire before the traditional retirement age of 65 by dedicating up to 70% of income to savings while still in the workforce."
> "Financial Independence, Retire Early (FIRE) Definition
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/financial-independence-...
Followers of FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early) plan to retire before the traditional retirement age of 65 by dedicating up to 70% of income to savings while still in the workforce."
My dream replacement for full time work: study and make art (a hobby I have plateaued in); exercise; become a better software developer and data analyst (I'm a manager these days); work part time (very part time) on a couple businesses I am involved with - mostly in creative R&D. I've recently become aware of an "elite" engineering firm that looks far into the future to build original and innovative technologies for clients - I would focus similarly.
What’s the firm? You can find me at my username at gmail if you didn’t want to broadcast
Similar ideas explored here: http://earlyretirementextreme.com/
[deleted]
The worst thing about not working, travelling, meeting lots of great people and ideas is that those people "needs" to work. So you don't hang around too much, and their ideas are not being developed with time.
I built my company and have had wealth enough to retire for a decade. Work gives us meaning and purpose and sharpens our skills and minds. I plan to never retire.
[deleted]
Critical illness insurance because everyone has a plan until they are punched in the face.
I would fill 110% of every day with meaningful activity if I didn’t have a job.
The issue a lot of that activity is acutely meaningful because you lack time now.
i want freedom from starving to death and exposure, while having freedom to do whatever sounds interesting or meaningful, or just relax that day.
I have a hard time recalling two jobs that were worth doing for society the way they were done. The natural order of closed-door companies creates a distortion where almost nothing is done properly to ensure high efficiency and happiness [0].
It's always a blend of:
- bad or absent hierarchy: bosses that never come down, that have no idea what's going on or the way things are done, that mostly only talk to you to send back more stats (on paper, with stick marks, no one will setup a shared spreadsheet to at least avoid pencil accounting every week)
- absurd lack of material support (you need a table god damn wood tablet extension for your desk... hell no, it's 2020, come back when alien technology landed on earth) no-one hired to fix stuff, even in large offices, absurd stuff breaks, people only complain
- incredibly bad division of labour: no training (people struggle with every tool interaction), no notion of efficiency (let's rewrite everything on another post it or file, with new doc IDs), desk/office structure is obsolete to the bone, the amount of paper flying between rooms is astonishing. imagine doing databases by moving db rows to another computer and waiting to reintegrate it back when (if) it comes back. For that reason only I do more to avoid justice problems because I don't want my life hanging in the hands of a bored-out secretary that forgot who took my file to where.
- causing as bad human interactions: people don't understand shit, they walk on eggs, nothing has value to them, everyone is slightly adversary and will reject blame at the slighest possibility of an issue. Of course one can end up in a good-minded team where people are chill and communicate nicely and work together .. but it seems a low prob event.
coming from computing, I cannot help but to see things as processing steps.. and the amount of work in most jobs is minuscule now that everything is digital. Computers / clusters are mostly waiting for sad humans to press the button. I kinda ballparked that my last company (retail store) entire operation could fit on a single machine (granted people stopped duplicating excel files with bad content causing them to all be over 3MB for instance) and a few programs (in terms of computation there was nothing going on, a few figures updated here and there, gameboy level arithmetics.
when the world is gonna shift to humanless operations it's gonna be a cold day
[0] not talking about ping pong tables and cloud shape cushions, more like having good ergonomics, good interactions with coworkers, and more importantly good understanding of the process and value of what you're doing.
ps: I said "two jobs" because, at least for minds like mine, food production (or similar very linear, production-chain like ops) felt like a job. You had to prep 100 tunafish sandwhich, someone showed you the right way to perform, it was clean and fast, then you sell, then you clean. It's almost lubricated.. you sweat but there's no drag, no confusion, no hidden state.. very zen in a way.
It's always a blend of:
- bad or absent hierarchy: bosses that never come down, that have no idea what's going on or the way things are done, that mostly only talk to you to send back more stats (on paper, with stick marks, no one will setup a shared spreadsheet to at least avoid pencil accounting every week)
- absurd lack of material support (you need a table god damn wood tablet extension for your desk... hell no, it's 2020, come back when alien technology landed on earth) no-one hired to fix stuff, even in large offices, absurd stuff breaks, people only complain
- incredibly bad division of labour: no training (people struggle with every tool interaction), no notion of efficiency (let's rewrite everything on another post it or file, with new doc IDs), desk/office structure is obsolete to the bone, the amount of paper flying between rooms is astonishing. imagine doing databases by moving db rows to another computer and waiting to reintegrate it back when (if) it comes back. For that reason only I do more to avoid justice problems because I don't want my life hanging in the hands of a bored-out secretary that forgot who took my file to where.
- causing as bad human interactions: people don't understand shit, they walk on eggs, nothing has value to them, everyone is slightly adversary and will reject blame at the slighest possibility of an issue. Of course one can end up in a good-minded team where people are chill and communicate nicely and work together .. but it seems a low prob event.
coming from computing, I cannot help but to see things as processing steps.. and the amount of work in most jobs is minuscule now that everything is digital. Computers / clusters are mostly waiting for sad humans to press the button. I kinda ballparked that my last company (retail store) entire operation could fit on a single machine (granted people stopped duplicating excel files with bad content causing them to all be over 3MB for instance) and a few programs (in terms of computation there was nothing going on, a few figures updated here and there, gameboy level arithmetics.
when the world is gonna shift to humanless operations it's gonna be a cold day
[0] not talking about ping pong tables and cloud shape cushions, more like having good ergonomics, good interactions with coworkers, and more importantly good understanding of the process and value of what you're doing.
ps: I said "two jobs" because, at least for minds like mine, food production (or similar very linear, production-chain like ops) felt like a job. You had to prep 100 tunafish sandwhich, someone showed you the right way to perform, it was clean and fast, then you sell, then you clean. It's almost lubricated.. you sweat but there's no drag, no confusion, no hidden state.. very zen in a way.
lastgeniusua(1)
I did a sabbatical in 2014 and I had plenty of stuff to do.
So much, in fact, that I couldn't imagine going back to work ever again.
I couldn't imagine living polyamorous with more than two partners when working 40h a week. Let alone having some hobbies on the side...
So much, in fact, that I couldn't imagine going back to work ever again.
I couldn't imagine living polyamorous with more than two partners when working 40h a week. Let alone having some hobbies on the side...
The most drag on a life without work, is put by having to buy physical products, that are not useful, except for status display or decoration. This is why AR- done right would be such a game-changer.
No more throw-away decoration bought at ikea. No more physical products like books, any stone with a small piece of cloth, could be a book.
No more displays of status by buying advertised products - instead, status is what you create, growing out of your footsteps as you walk down a public street.
If all those products fade to grey, lots of work will become unneeded. And we are almost there.
No more throw-away decoration bought at ikea. No more physical products like books, any stone with a small piece of cloth, could be a book.
No more displays of status by buying advertised products - instead, status is what you create, growing out of your footsteps as you walk down a public street.
If all those products fade to grey, lots of work will become unneeded. And we are almost there.
The de-materialization of AR could lead in the direction you’re discussing, but almost certainly won’t. The infrastructure is/will be developed by organizations that are explicitly a part of (and escalate) the material and status culture you deride. Some of these companies explicitly make their wealth based on advertising and will hardly give up those profit streams willingly when the shift to AR takes place. Most people are trapped playing other people’s games, but the shift to AR won’t solve that.
They would completely eat their customers?
Buy a Clock from amazon or place a AR-Clock provided by Google-TradingPlattform?
One being good for the environment and some ARtist, the other being a hazard and supporting wastefulness, i can see this actually working out. Finally, its faster, its instant and not limited by physic limitations.
Buy a Clock from amazon or place a AR-Clock provided by Google-TradingPlattform?
One being good for the environment and some ARtist, the other being a hazard and supporting wastefulness, i can see this actually working out. Finally, its faster, its instant and not limited by physic limitations.
So sell me on the vision. What do you imagine this world looks like? Who supplies the tech infrastructure, who supplies the ‘products’?
Products are the least of most ppls worries. Family, housing, healthcare are way bigger costs
A thing the FIRE community misses:
The felt sense of Agency is VERY different between a) still making some income, feeling like your hand is still somewhat on the wheel and b) sitting in the back seat, with nothing to do but continually recalculating if / how long your nest egg will last (this quickly turns pathological)
I believe the slow build up of stress in B) is unmitigable (probably goes against our species’ DNA). Doubly so if you’ve attached lots of self-worth to making B) happen.
And if the author reads this comment: you need to get over yourself if you want to become a ‘writer’, I don’t know if there is an equivalent term for aspiring writers, but you are firmly in the equivalent “wantreprenuer” category. Be bold, fail, then learn, then fail some more. Don’t surround yourself with other wantreprenuers and blame them. Suck it up buttercup.
The felt sense of Agency is VERY different between a) still making some income, feeling like your hand is still somewhat on the wheel and b) sitting in the back seat, with nothing to do but continually recalculating if / how long your nest egg will last (this quickly turns pathological)
I believe the slow build up of stress in B) is unmitigable (probably goes against our species’ DNA). Doubly so if you’ve attached lots of self-worth to making B) happen.
And if the author reads this comment: you need to get over yourself if you want to become a ‘writer’, I don’t know if there is an equivalent term for aspiring writers, but you are firmly in the equivalent “wantreprenuer” category. Be bold, fail, then learn, then fail some more. Don’t surround yourself with other wantreprenuers and blame them. Suck it up buttercup.
> A thing the FIRE community misses
Do they? I mean, no doubt individuals might miss this. I don't think "the community" misses this. Lots of people are very aware of how agency plays into life satisfaction. In fact, being compelled to work for someone and do what their boss tells them to do severely impedes their agency.
And a lot of post-FIRE reports are that money is much less of a concern than it ever was while working. Because once you are completely behind the wheel of your life, you often find work you really enjoy, that also happens to add some extra money to that nest egg. Most reports I've read indicate that money has actually grown while they were "retired." Even LivingAFi reports this:
> I still have an amazing stash of money. I mean, I was able to take close to five straight years off work and still have more than I started with, inflation-adjusted
He later explains going back to work in more detail:
> My fiancé is a librarian and she doesn’t make a ton of money. This drastically changes the early-retirement numbers for the two of us.
> Anyway — bottom line is that my own asset sheet funds the lion’s share of our future together.
> Additionally, I’m spending more than that 30K/yr I had estimated back in 2015. I’m at 40K now and we’ll be at 55K together I think, once we consolidate assets and buy a home.
Do they? I mean, no doubt individuals might miss this. I don't think "the community" misses this. Lots of people are very aware of how agency plays into life satisfaction. In fact, being compelled to work for someone and do what their boss tells them to do severely impedes their agency.
And a lot of post-FIRE reports are that money is much less of a concern than it ever was while working. Because once you are completely behind the wheel of your life, you often find work you really enjoy, that also happens to add some extra money to that nest egg. Most reports I've read indicate that money has actually grown while they were "retired." Even LivingAFi reports this:
> I still have an amazing stash of money. I mean, I was able to take close to five straight years off work and still have more than I started with, inflation-adjusted
He later explains going back to work in more detail:
> My fiancé is a librarian and she doesn’t make a ton of money. This drastically changes the early-retirement numbers for the two of us.
> Anyway — bottom line is that my own asset sheet funds the lion’s share of our future together.
> Additionally, I’m spending more than that 30K/yr I had estimated back in 2015. I’m at 40K now and we’ll be at 55K together I think, once we consolidate assets and buy a home.
> sitting in the back seat, with nothing to do but continually recalculating if / how long your nest egg will last
this problem doesn't exist if you correctly math out your existence to guarantee survival. having the ability to choose how to spend your time is the definition of agency.
this problem doesn't exist if you correctly math out your existence to guarantee survival. having the ability to choose how to spend your time is the definition of agency.
You missed my point. Said another way, "mathing out correctly your existence to guarantee survival" generates a type stress no one warns you about. Consider yourself now warned. Twice.
My biggest insight has been a mindset change. Previously my underlying approach to life looked like: "I will do X which will enable me to do Y so that I can finally do Z." I now approach my days with "What will make me happy?" This is an experiment I'm performing. A structured life feels safe and orderly - but what if living life and letting things unfold more 'organically' is better?
It is a weird/uncomfortable shift because I can't predict what is coming. As an example, turns out I really enjoy building dams. A couple months ago I would not have been able to tell you that I'd be building a dam.
I have no idea what it is that drives my own interests or affinities, but now instead of attempting to manipulate them for whatever X, Y, or Z goal... I just roll with wherever they take me. And they always seem ready to take me somewhere.
My point is: In a life without work (in my experience) stuff will come up. Follow what arises, see where it goes. It certainly feels better.