PinePhone – Open Source Smart Phone Supported by Major Linux Phone Projects(pine64.org)
pine64.org
PinePhone – Open Source Smart Phone Supported by Major Linux Phone Projects
https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/
244 comments
I think the main thing that PinePhone has going for them is the price $150-200 for what essentially is a hobbyist device at this point is more than reasonable.
This is in stark contrast to the Purism phones which offer about the same hardware (slightly better CPU but worse GPU) at flagship prices.
This is somewhat also proof that the prices that Purism charges aren’t due to lack of economy of scale you can make these devices on the cheap, the hardware is available.
I have a similar complaint about their laptops they charge a hefty premium for what is essentially a bog standard OEM laptop from China which you can get for almost half the price in many cases including from other direct to customer vendors.
This is in stark contrast to the Purism phones which offer about the same hardware (slightly better CPU but worse GPU) at flagship prices.
This is somewhat also proof that the prices that Purism charges aren’t due to lack of economy of scale you can make these devices on the cheap, the hardware is available.
I have a similar complaint about their laptops they charge a hefty premium for what is essentially a bog standard OEM laptop from China which you can get for almost half the price in many cases including from other direct to customer vendors.
> This is in stark contrast to the Purism phones which offer about the same hardware (slightly better CPU but worse GPU) at flagship prices.
This is very far from truth: https://forums.puri.sm/t/comparing-specs-of-upcoming-linux-p...
The i.MX 8M Quad is better than the Allwinner A64: 30% faster CPU clock speed, 140% faster RAM standard, 140% better OpenGL performance, USB 3.0 and support for higher resolution cameras.
(and performance is just one of many reasons to prefer Librem 5 over Pinephone, see the link)
This is very far from truth: https://forums.puri.sm/t/comparing-specs-of-upcoming-linux-p...
The i.MX 8M Quad is better than the Allwinner A64: 30% faster CPU clock speed, 140% faster RAM standard, 140% better OpenGL performance, USB 3.0 and support for higher resolution cameras.
(and performance is just one of many reasons to prefer Librem 5 over Pinephone, see the link)
> the prices that Purism charges aren’t due to lack of economy of scale you can make these devices on the cheap
I've never understood that to be their argument. Purism is actively paying people to improve the mobile experience of Linux. They can't charge for software, and they certainly don't get a cut of app sales like Google or Apple. So to fund the devs that write the software, they mark up their hardware.
This improves mobile Linux, makes for a reasonably sustainable company, and gives Pine64 a free ride regarding software like Phosh, Phoc, Calls, Chatty, etc. So without having to pay for developers, Pine can sell their hardware dramatically cheaper. Simply put, I don't think "Good software isn't cheap" should be a surprise to anyone here.
I've never understood that to be their argument. Purism is actively paying people to improve the mobile experience of Linux. They can't charge for software, and they certainly don't get a cut of app sales like Google or Apple. So to fund the devs that write the software, they mark up their hardware.
This improves mobile Linux, makes for a reasonably sustainable company, and gives Pine64 a free ride regarding software like Phosh, Phoc, Calls, Chatty, etc. So without having to pay for developers, Pine can sell their hardware dramatically cheaper. Simply put, I don't think "Good software isn't cheap" should be a surprise to anyone here.
> Once they get the software worked out over the next few years though, it'll be the best thing out there. No ads, no bullshit, just a phone with a mainline linux distribution.
I'm coming to the realisation that open source projects will always provide a lower quality than comerical ones. How can we honestly expect a small team of developers to compete with the larger teams a commerical project can afford? The reality is, we can't. And we'll always compare PinePhone and other things to iOS and Android and they'll always come up short.
Also, a large part of using a smart phone is the apps. Without apps the phone is just really a phone.
For me, to want to use PinePhone they would need to make it super easy to have Android on there.
I'm coming to the realisation that open source projects will always provide a lower quality than comerical ones. How can we honestly expect a small team of developers to compete with the larger teams a commerical project can afford? The reality is, we can't. And we'll always compare PinePhone and other things to iOS and Android and they'll always come up short.
Also, a large part of using a smart phone is the apps. Without apps the phone is just really a phone.
For me, to want to use PinePhone they would need to make it super easy to have Android on there.
> I'm coming to the realisation that open source projects will always provide a lower quality than comerical ones.
That is not true. As far as I am concerned Linux is clearly superior OS for my laptop over commercial alternatives.
> How can we honestly expect a small team of developers to compete with the larger teams a commerical project can afford?
In many cases they win by default. If "no leaking of personal data" is on mandatory feature list then Pinephones are already better than Android!
And there are many projects where there is simply no commercial product at all and is unlikely to ever appear.
That is not true. As far as I am concerned Linux is clearly superior OS for my laptop over commercial alternatives.
> How can we honestly expect a small team of developers to compete with the larger teams a commerical project can afford?
In many cases they win by default. If "no leaking of personal data" is on mandatory feature list then Pinephones are already better than Android!
And there are many projects where there is simply no commercial product at all and is unlikely to ever appear.
>That is not true. As far as I am concerned Linux is clearly superior OS for my laptop over commercial alternatives.
I would argue Linux is only superior from the IT software perspective. This is a very narrow perspective that is only inflated if you're in IT or on an IT related site like HN. From almost every other dimension Linux is inferior and therefore from an Overall perspective it is inferior.
The most important dimensions for an operating system are usability and compatibility. Average users are like this while hard core masochist programmers are willing to spend years decoding an interface
I would argue Linux is only superior from the IT software perspective. This is a very narrow perspective that is only inflated if you're in IT or on an IT related site like HN. From almost every other dimension Linux is inferior and therefore from an Overall perspective it is inferior.
The most important dimensions for an operating system are usability and compatibility. Average users are like this while hard core masochist programmers are willing to spend years decoding an interface
I used to feel the exact same way until 2 years ago. But my experience has been absolutely brilliant with Linux mint in the last 2 years. No driver issues, super nice UI and everything just works now!
As a matter of fact the only use I have for Windows now is for playing games (also Photoshop).
Otoh the amount of clutter and issues I have to deal in Win10 is just bad. I digress but thankfully there is a tool called "Shutup 10" that makes Windows much less annoying.
As a matter of fact the only use I have for Windows now is for playing games (also Photoshop).
Otoh the amount of clutter and issues I have to deal in Win10 is just bad. I digress but thankfully there is a tool called "Shutup 10" that makes Windows much less annoying.
For anyone interested, here's the homepage of Linux Mint: https://linuxmint.com/
It is based on Ubuntu and uses the Cinnamon desktop by default, however personally i also rather enjoy the XFCE spin, for example: https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=4103
To that end, i also enjoy smaller distributions like Xubuntu, which are just customized Ubuntu, should someone not necessarily want to use Mint in particular: https://xubuntu.org/
Of course, the purists out there could also enjoy Debian because it relies more on free software instead of having proprietary drivers, but outside of the server space your experience might vary: https://www.debian.org/
Also, the Windows tool in question is O&O ShutUp10: https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10
However, it's unfortunate to have to run it after the occasional update, because Windows is kind enough to enable its spyware functionality automatically sometimes. /s
It is based on Ubuntu and uses the Cinnamon desktop by default, however personally i also rather enjoy the XFCE spin, for example: https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=4103
To that end, i also enjoy smaller distributions like Xubuntu, which are just customized Ubuntu, should someone not necessarily want to use Mint in particular: https://xubuntu.org/
Of course, the purists out there could also enjoy Debian because it relies more on free software instead of having proprietary drivers, but outside of the server space your experience might vary: https://www.debian.org/
Also, the Windows tool in question is O&O ShutUp10: https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10
However, it's unfortunate to have to run it after the occasional update, because Windows is kind enough to enable its spyware functionality automatically sometimes. /s
i think if you are going to go with debian for the desktop, you may as well go with mx linux
I've used manjaro, ubuntu ,mint and even NixOS. I've hit numerous compatibility and usability issues that just doesn't happen in Windows or OSX.
Also your post touches on the most important dimension. Gaming and graphics and cad. Have you tried doing this stuff on linux? The experience is clearly inferior.
I think there's a psychological blocker here. You're aware Linux is shit for games and photoshop, but you still say linux is better because everything works! That's contradictory. Photoshop and games CLEARLY don't work according to your post which is the exact things I am talking about.
Either way I've still had the Linux OS crash on me within the last month. Something that just doesn't happen ever with windows or OSX anymore.
Also your post touches on the most important dimension. Gaming and graphics and cad. Have you tried doing this stuff on linux? The experience is clearly inferior.
I think there's a psychological blocker here. You're aware Linux is shit for games and photoshop, but you still say linux is better because everything works! That's contradictory. Photoshop and games CLEARLY don't work according to your post which is the exact things I am talking about.
Either way I've still had the Linux OS crash on me within the last month. Something that just doesn't happen ever with windows or OSX anymore.
The common Linux interfaces are very easy to decipher and have a good usability. Usability is measurable property, so that's not a guess, just a fact. Add to that the higher task purpose you can get with Linux (partly boosted by not having annoying blockers to get work done, like Windows ads and forced reboots) and the infinitely higher customizablity (for the user's needs and wants) and for general computer usage, there is no question that usability of Linux is higher.
Of course, usability always depends on the specific task you have to do in a given context. It's possible that for the specific software you have to run for that task, that Windows or Apple software has the better usability. But that's far from the norm.
Compatibility Linux wins though in general, it supports way more hardware and software. If you think proprietary software is better there: Get out of your bubble :)
To get a bit away from this OT discussion: The PinePhone is just a very early project. It's also cheap. Of course it has issues, and they should be made clear to potential buyers. But to try to use that to smear FOSS software in general is dishonest trolling.
Of course, usability always depends on the specific task you have to do in a given context. It's possible that for the specific software you have to run for that task, that Windows or Apple software has the better usability. But that's far from the norm.
Compatibility Linux wins though in general, it supports way more hardware and software. If you think proprietary software is better there: Get out of your bubble :)
To get a bit away from this OT discussion: The PinePhone is just a very early project. It's also cheap. Of course it has issues, and they should be made clear to potential buyers. But to try to use that to smear FOSS software in general is dishonest trolling.
> common Linux interfaces are very easy to decipher and have a good usability
Then you are an absolute god of IT and have a very skewed perception of things as a result; alternatively you've made up your own definition of the word "usability" that absolutely no one else uses.
I think Linux is great. I love the customizability it brings to the table and get a lot out of it. The time and effort invested to get here has been significant though. The manpages are dense. Commands are arcane. Error messages are very often inscrutable.
The major distros do a reasonable job as long as everything is working and there happens to be a well maintained program in the preconfigured repos that works well for whatever task it is you're trying to accomplish right then. I've set up Ubuntu for relatives who aren't tech savvy to do basic office work and everything is flawless.
The user experience just isn't on the same level as the proprietary OSes though. There are far fewer well polished apps. Many vendors don't provide compatible versions of their software. The latest gadget you bought probably requires Windows or iOS to sync or whatever it is you need it to do. Leave the well trodden path for whatever reason - something breaks, your new device isn't recognized, something else - and things aren't pretty.
It's not really the OS's fault. FOSS apps are largely written and maintained by volunteers instead of highly paid teams. All modern systems have a staggering amount of complexity under the hood and Linux distros intentionally give you access to it. But if you want or are forced to tinker then you're going to have to contend with it one way or another.
Then you are an absolute god of IT and have a very skewed perception of things as a result; alternatively you've made up your own definition of the word "usability" that absolutely no one else uses.
I think Linux is great. I love the customizability it brings to the table and get a lot out of it. The time and effort invested to get here has been significant though. The manpages are dense. Commands are arcane. Error messages are very often inscrutable.
The major distros do a reasonable job as long as everything is working and there happens to be a well maintained program in the preconfigured repos that works well for whatever task it is you're trying to accomplish right then. I've set up Ubuntu for relatives who aren't tech savvy to do basic office work and everything is flawless.
The user experience just isn't on the same level as the proprietary OSes though. There are far fewer well polished apps. Many vendors don't provide compatible versions of their software. The latest gadget you bought probably requires Windows or iOS to sync or whatever it is you need it to do. Leave the well trodden path for whatever reason - something breaks, your new device isn't recognized, something else - and things aren't pretty.
It's not really the OS's fault. FOSS apps are largely written and maintained by volunteers instead of highly paid teams. All modern systems have a staggering amount of complexity under the hood and Linux distros intentionally give you access to it. But if you want or are forced to tinker then you're going to have to contend with it one way or another.
Gnome 40 is just about as usable as anything I’ve ever used. I honestly find it more intuitive than Mac or Windows at this point. My mom uses Linux now with zero problems, so it passes the anecdotal non-technical old lady test.
All linux distros bias towards command line. It's not because of the distro or the GUI itself. It's because the entire FOSS ecosystem itself biases towards that interface so it doesn't matter how advanced Gnome or KDE or any of those GUI layers get a command line shell will always be a major part of linux and that brings usability down quite low when compared with closed source.
Of course I will caveat this by saying "overall" usability. Clearly with training CLI's can be superior to GUIs. But most people won't be willing to do this, so ONLY from an overall perspective CLIs are worse.
Of course I will caveat this by saying "overall" usability. Clearly with training CLI's can be superior to GUIs. But most people won't be willing to do this, so ONLY from an overall perspective CLIs are worse.
>The common Linux interfaces are very easy to decipher and have a good usability
The most common interface is bash (or alternative bash-like languages). Which is pretty much required if your a hardcore linux user. Applications push users towards command line interfaces. This is NOT easy to decipher. You are lying to yourself.
>Of course, usability always depends on the specific task you have to do in a given context. It's possible that for the specific software you have to run for that task, that Windows or Apple software has the better usability. But that's far from the norm.
How about the entire gaming library. The entire CAD field. What about 3D modelling or graphics programs like Photoshop. Or how about Audio production? Open Source choices are lacking while industry standards Don't even run on linux. These are huge and NORMAL aspects of computing that are inferior in a major way.
>Compatibility Linux wins though in general, it supports way more hardware and software. If you think proprietary software is better there: Get out of your bubble :)
Have you tried steam on linux? I've had Linux supported games fail to even start for me. I've had my computer restart on linux games. Not even getting into the steam compatibility layer here.
These are huge issues. A crashing OS is just something that rarely happens with Windows or OSX and I have to say that I've hit this on the regular with Linux on many many different pieces of hardware. This isn't a bubble, I believe the opposite is happening here. I'm a hardcore linux user who's realistic and you're the one deluding yourself into thinking FOSS is superior in every way (It's not).
I am not SMEARING FOSS. That is a dishonest AND personal accusation. There is a huge difference between SMEARING and just stating my opinion.
Look at my original post. There are aspects of FOSS that are SUPERIOR to closed source, but FOSS in general is INFERIOR from a usability and compatibility perspective.
What you are doing here by accusing me of smearing FOSS is starting a witch hunt. Likely you're unaware of the gravity of what you're doing and you just have a biased mob mentality right now. Read your own post, is there anything.. anything at all said that is negative about linux? You are not able to approach this from a fair and balanced perspective. Windows and OSX and Linux are three pillars in the OS world and failing to mention even one positive for Windows and OSX is pretty biased.
What's your distro of choice? I use NixOS, prior to that I was into Arch, and prior to that ubuntu and mint. So I have a very good view of the ecosystem.
The most common interface is bash (or alternative bash-like languages). Which is pretty much required if your a hardcore linux user. Applications push users towards command line interfaces. This is NOT easy to decipher. You are lying to yourself.
>Of course, usability always depends on the specific task you have to do in a given context. It's possible that for the specific software you have to run for that task, that Windows or Apple software has the better usability. But that's far from the norm.
How about the entire gaming library. The entire CAD field. What about 3D modelling or graphics programs like Photoshop. Or how about Audio production? Open Source choices are lacking while industry standards Don't even run on linux. These are huge and NORMAL aspects of computing that are inferior in a major way.
>Compatibility Linux wins though in general, it supports way more hardware and software. If you think proprietary software is better there: Get out of your bubble :)
Have you tried steam on linux? I've had Linux supported games fail to even start for me. I've had my computer restart on linux games. Not even getting into the steam compatibility layer here.
These are huge issues. A crashing OS is just something that rarely happens with Windows or OSX and I have to say that I've hit this on the regular with Linux on many many different pieces of hardware. This isn't a bubble, I believe the opposite is happening here. I'm a hardcore linux user who's realistic and you're the one deluding yourself into thinking FOSS is superior in every way (It's not).
I am not SMEARING FOSS. That is a dishonest AND personal accusation. There is a huge difference between SMEARING and just stating my opinion.
Look at my original post. There are aspects of FOSS that are SUPERIOR to closed source, but FOSS in general is INFERIOR from a usability and compatibility perspective.
What you are doing here by accusing me of smearing FOSS is starting a witch hunt. Likely you're unaware of the gravity of what you're doing and you just have a biased mob mentality right now. Read your own post, is there anything.. anything at all said that is negative about linux? You are not able to approach this from a fair and balanced perspective. Windows and OSX and Linux are three pillars in the OS world and failing to mention even one positive for Windows and OSX is pretty biased.
What's your distro of choice? I use NixOS, prior to that I was into Arch, and prior to that ubuntu and mint. So I have a very good view of the ecosystem.
Mate, you are taking this too personal. your account here won't survive long like that. The "smearing foss" comment wasn't targeting you.
You are just wrong about the usability and compatibility. Especially compatibility is the strong suit of FOSS software in general and Linux specifically. There is broader hardware and software support. It's a fact, get over it. Usability always depends on the context and task, your general statement is bs - and it clashes with the comments you got of novice users working very well with Linux. Usability is defined in a DIN ISO norm, have a look at that before using it for arguments.
Your comment is too long to go into the details, but I'll response in short to the main points:
1. No, Bash is not the most common interface, though I like it. It has to be used for the rare edge case, everything else can be done with GUIs. If your impression is otherwise you are not using mainstream distros nor are you doing regular tasks. Use Gnome or KDE on Ubuntu and stop distro hopping.
2. I'm playing exclusively on Linux since Proton got introduced, though I even used Linux for games before that. I'm okay with the occasional game not working, as Windows was vastly more cumbersome to keep in a working state, plus the many games that did not work there will also not be forgotten by me.
3. Void Linux is my current choice. I was a supporter in a Ubuntu forum and used that for many years, and still for the dayjob. I did use Funtoo for a while in between.
You are just wrong about the usability and compatibility. Especially compatibility is the strong suit of FOSS software in general and Linux specifically. There is broader hardware and software support. It's a fact, get over it. Usability always depends on the context and task, your general statement is bs - and it clashes with the comments you got of novice users working very well with Linux. Usability is defined in a DIN ISO norm, have a look at that before using it for arguments.
Your comment is too long to go into the details, but I'll response in short to the main points:
1. No, Bash is not the most common interface, though I like it. It has to be used for the rare edge case, everything else can be done with GUIs. If your impression is otherwise you are not using mainstream distros nor are you doing regular tasks. Use Gnome or KDE on Ubuntu and stop distro hopping.
2. I'm playing exclusively on Linux since Proton got introduced, though I even used Linux for games before that. I'm okay with the occasional game not working, as Windows was vastly more cumbersome to keep in a working state, plus the many games that did not work there will also not be forgotten by me.
3. Void Linux is my current choice. I was a supporter in a Ubuntu forum and used that for many years, and still for the dayjob. I did use Funtoo for a while in between.
>Mate, you are taking this too personal. your account here won't survive long like that. The "smearing foss" comment wasn't targeting you.
If it's not targeting me. Who is it targeting, "Mate?" Clearly it was targeting me, as you're REPLYING to me. Let's be honest here, You were attempting to "smear" me, but now you're back pedaling. Play it safe, don't even use the word "smear." No one is doing that here, it's just opinions and discussion. Keep it that way.
>You are just wrong about the usability and compatibility. Especially compatibility is the strong suit of FOSS software in general and Linux specifically. There is broader hardware and software support. It's a fact, get over it.
Nah I'm totally right. FOSS is less compatible with most hardware. The "official broad support" isn't even the the measuring stick here. It's actual hardware crashes and bugs.
>1. No, Bash is not the most common interface, though I like it. It has to be used for the rare edge case, everything else can be done with GUIs. If your impression is otherwise you are not using mainstream distros nor are you doing regular tasks. Use Gnome or KDE on Ubuntu and stop distro hopping.
"Mate," my impression encompasses gnome and KDE on Ubuntu as well as non mainstream distros, so I know my shit. Bash is 100% the most common interface, even on ubuntu. Any time you want to configure your operating system you will touch the CLI. Applications promote it, tutorials promote it, if you aren't using it I'm not sure what reality you're living in.
If you're thinking of the world as if it's Grandmas using the browser vs. Programmers, then yes, grandmas using the browser have everything they need with ubuntu without touching the CLI. However, there are advanced users of computing outside of the programming world. 3D modelling software, audio production, Network Administration... to get even these things to work right most of these people will indeed touch the CLI.
>2. I'm playing exclusively on Linux since Proton got introduced, though I even used Linux for games before that. I'm okay with the occasional game not working, as Windows was vastly more cumbersome to keep in a working state, plus the many games that did not work there will also not be forgotten by me.
I'm a hardcore gamer so I have over 100 games in my steam library. I have a linux dell laptop with a quadro card. Only low fidelity games work; and certain games trigger the OS to restart. Running windows this never happens. Not even referring to proton. Just talking about games compiled to target linux.
>3. Void Linux is my current choice. I was a supporter in a Ubuntu forum and used that for many years, and still for the dayjob. I did use Funtoo for a while in between.
Try tinkering with NixOS or arch. You will have a better view of compatibility issues that linux suffers from. Ironically the fact that "choices" for distros exist and the fact that you have to pick the "right" OS for the right perspective is a big usability issue in itself.
If it's not targeting me. Who is it targeting, "Mate?" Clearly it was targeting me, as you're REPLYING to me. Let's be honest here, You were attempting to "smear" me, but now you're back pedaling. Play it safe, don't even use the word "smear." No one is doing that here, it's just opinions and discussion. Keep it that way.
>You are just wrong about the usability and compatibility. Especially compatibility is the strong suit of FOSS software in general and Linux specifically. There is broader hardware and software support. It's a fact, get over it.
Nah I'm totally right. FOSS is less compatible with most hardware. The "official broad support" isn't even the the measuring stick here. It's actual hardware crashes and bugs.
>1. No, Bash is not the most common interface, though I like it. It has to be used for the rare edge case, everything else can be done with GUIs. If your impression is otherwise you are not using mainstream distros nor are you doing regular tasks. Use Gnome or KDE on Ubuntu and stop distro hopping.
"Mate," my impression encompasses gnome and KDE on Ubuntu as well as non mainstream distros, so I know my shit. Bash is 100% the most common interface, even on ubuntu. Any time you want to configure your operating system you will touch the CLI. Applications promote it, tutorials promote it, if you aren't using it I'm not sure what reality you're living in.
If you're thinking of the world as if it's Grandmas using the browser vs. Programmers, then yes, grandmas using the browser have everything they need with ubuntu without touching the CLI. However, there are advanced users of computing outside of the programming world. 3D modelling software, audio production, Network Administration... to get even these things to work right most of these people will indeed touch the CLI.
>2. I'm playing exclusively on Linux since Proton got introduced, though I even used Linux for games before that. I'm okay with the occasional game not working, as Windows was vastly more cumbersome to keep in a working state, plus the many games that did not work there will also not be forgotten by me.
I'm a hardcore gamer so I have over 100 games in my steam library. I have a linux dell laptop with a quadro card. Only low fidelity games work; and certain games trigger the OS to restart. Running windows this never happens. Not even referring to proton. Just talking about games compiled to target linux.
>3. Void Linux is my current choice. I was a supporter in a Ubuntu forum and used that for many years, and still for the dayjob. I did use Funtoo for a while in between.
Try tinkering with NixOS or arch. You will have a better view of compatibility issues that linux suffers from. Ironically the fact that "choices" for distros exist and the fact that you have to pick the "right" OS for the right perspective is a big usability issue in itself.
Okay, that's wasted time, and your comment is inappropriate. So in very short and as a last comment:
> I'm a hardcore gamer so I have over 100 games in my steam library.
How hardcore^^ 358 are in mine, + many more GOG and Humble Bundle games + hundreds on CD/DVD I probably will never play again.
> Only low fidelity games work; and certain games trigger the OS to restart.
Linux is around equally strong in gpu driver performance. There are differences ofc, but if game performance is vastly different for you, then your Dell laptop might not be using the Nvidia gpu. Proton is not a factor here, its performance impact is minimal (and it can be faster to run the Windows versions of games with Proton than the Linux version natively).
> Try tinkering with NixOS or arch.
If you tinker don't be surprised if the result is tinkery.
> the fact that you have to pick the "right" OS for the right perspective is a big usability issue in itself.
It's not. You do not know what usability is.
> I'm a hardcore gamer so I have over 100 games in my steam library.
How hardcore^^ 358 are in mine, + many more GOG and Humble Bundle games + hundreds on CD/DVD I probably will never play again.
> Only low fidelity games work; and certain games trigger the OS to restart.
Linux is around equally strong in gpu driver performance. There are differences ofc, but if game performance is vastly different for you, then your Dell laptop might not be using the Nvidia gpu. Proton is not a factor here, its performance impact is minimal (and it can be faster to run the Windows versions of games with Proton than the Linux version natively).
> Try tinkering with NixOS or arch.
If you tinker don't be surprised if the result is tinkery.
> the fact that you have to pick the "right" OS for the right perspective is a big usability issue in itself.
It's not. You do not know what usability is.
>Okay, that's wasted time, and your comment is inappropriate. So in very short and as a last comment:
Your initial comment accused me of smearing FOSS. It's inconsiderate and a literal lie. I would say that's the most inappropriate thing that's occurred in this thread.
>How hardcore^^ 358 are in mine, + many more GOG and Humble Bundle games + hundreds on CD/DVD I probably will never play again.
365. and Gog. We're pretty much the same in terms of amount of games. If you have that many games you should know absolutely there are problems. Maybe your hardware configuration just happens to be common and compatible. I use a quadro nvidia card which is not the traditional GeForce stuff. Both of our use cases are valid but you have to combine our use cases to form a holistic broad spectrum view. My use case is an indication of compatibility problems, likely with quadro. This doesn't happen with windows.
>If you tinker don't be surprised if the result is tinkery.
When you tinker you understand the internals more. When you understand the internals more you better understand the issues. I've used ubuntu AND tinkered with NixOS. So I have broader experience than you.
>It's not. You do not know what usability is.
Part of my Job description is UI design. I'm a full stack engineer from the front (browser based UI's and product design) all the way to C++ and embedded systems on the back end. Usability is my Job but also hardcore systems development. Most full stack devs stop at the application layer so I would say because someone pays me to know what usability is, I pretty much know it quite well. Lack of choice is a usability feature, Apple employs this aspect heavily by restricting hardware options; it's a big part of why apple software is perceived to be very robust.
Another big part of usability is also perception. The actual capability of a product contributes less to usability than the perception of the capability of the product. Apple again uses this strategy big time.
Your initial comment accused me of smearing FOSS. It's inconsiderate and a literal lie. I would say that's the most inappropriate thing that's occurred in this thread.
>How hardcore^^ 358 are in mine, + many more GOG and Humble Bundle games + hundreds on CD/DVD I probably will never play again.
365. and Gog. We're pretty much the same in terms of amount of games. If you have that many games you should know absolutely there are problems. Maybe your hardware configuration just happens to be common and compatible. I use a quadro nvidia card which is not the traditional GeForce stuff. Both of our use cases are valid but you have to combine our use cases to form a holistic broad spectrum view. My use case is an indication of compatibility problems, likely with quadro. This doesn't happen with windows.
>If you tinker don't be surprised if the result is tinkery.
When you tinker you understand the internals more. When you understand the internals more you better understand the issues. I've used ubuntu AND tinkered with NixOS. So I have broader experience than you.
>It's not. You do not know what usability is.
Part of my Job description is UI design. I'm a full stack engineer from the front (browser based UI's and product design) all the way to C++ and embedded systems on the back end. Usability is my Job but also hardcore systems development. Most full stack devs stop at the application layer so I would say because someone pays me to know what usability is, I pretty much know it quite well. Lack of choice is a usability feature, Apple employs this aspect heavily by restricting hardware options; it's a big part of why apple software is perceived to be very robust.
Another big part of usability is also perception. The actual capability of a product contributes less to usability than the perception of the capability of the product. Apple again uses this strategy big time.
>The common Linux interfaces are very easy to decipher and have a good usability.
CLI? Absolutely.
Desktop interfaces are an inconsistent mess.
CLI? Absolutely.
Desktop interfaces are an inconsistent mess.
The CLI I would argue sucks. Compared with powershell? Powershell is better designed.
But that's besides the point. CLIs in itself are harder to use than GUI and the entire FOSS ecosystem biases itself towards CLI. So that in itself is a marker for inferior usability.
With training a CLI can be made superior in many aspects to a GUI. But it takes training and mostly only people in IT are willing to go through this training. Overall from a common users' standpoint, GUIs are superior.
But that's besides the point. CLIs in itself are harder to use than GUI and the entire FOSS ecosystem biases itself towards CLI. So that in itself is a marker for inferior usability.
With training a CLI can be made superior in many aspects to a GUI. But it takes training and mostly only people in IT are willing to go through this training. Overall from a common users' standpoint, GUIs are superior.
We can have both tho. What stops you to use funky GUI to tidy up things then have 'export to powershell' command ?
Yeah but overall in windows or OSX you can use the entire OS without touching the command line. Not so for linux. Most linux users are using both a GUI and a shell window under the GUI. That's the point.
Most Linux users use GNOME or KDE, which are easy to use and far more customisable than Win10.
If you want to branch out to less popular DEs then of course you should be prepared for it being less polished, but does any Linux newbie really expect dozens of super polished DEs?
If you want to branch out to less popular DEs then of course you should be prepared for it being less polished, but does any Linux newbie really expect dozens of super polished DEs?
If this is polished [1] then it's a sorry state.
This was taken a few years ago, programs were iirc Eclipse, Libreoffice and an editor. I don't care if it's the DEs fault, Qt, GTK ... the same programs have consistency if run on Windows. I don't care what order (or naming), as long as it's consistent. (ie Save, Close without, Cancel)
This is muscle memory. No shortcuts are not an alternative, merely a workaround. The underlying issue would still be there.
Unfortunately Android has taken over this inconsistency, probably because there is nobody that enforces it. "Mark as read" and "Reply" in the notifications are sometimes left/right, sometimes reversed. Yes/no questions are sometimes left, sometimes right. Snooze vs. alarm cancel too. What a disaster.
[1] https://i.imgur.com/wv3yFbZ.png
This is muscle memory. No shortcuts are not an alternative, merely a workaround. The underlying issue would still be there.
Unfortunately Android has taken over this inconsistency, probably because there is nobody that enforces it. "Mark as read" and "Reply" in the notifications are sometimes left/right, sometimes reversed. Yes/no questions are sometimes left, sometimes right. Snooze vs. alarm cancel too. What a disaster.
[1] https://i.imgur.com/wv3yFbZ.png
> The common Linux interfaces are very easy to decipher and have a good usability.
I feel like this is true only sometimes and even then probably from a particular point of view. For example, i use XFCE for my desktop computers with DEB based distros.
Most of the time, things just work, do so pretty fast and not in a too resource intensive way (which would be a different story with GNOME, Cinnamon or KDE, all of which come close to the Windows desktop resource usage in some cases). However, there is also a lot of software out there, that relies on configuration files instead of UI configuration to get things done.
Take Redshift (a bit like f.lux) as an example, in which you can't edit the screen colors at the different times of day through the UI, but rather have to look up how and where to create a configuration file with the values that you need.
Furthermore, there is also a lot of software out there for *nix that doesn't have GUI front ends in the first place (unless someone has written one) or need to be installed from PPAs and such, or even necessitate messing around with AppImage or Flatpak ways of installation - all of those have their own reasons for existing, be it historical reasons or having to support a variety of system configurations, unlike just packaging an .exe file with some sort of an installer, but the bottom line is that this hinders usability for the common folk out there.
> Of course, usability always depends on the specific task you have to do in a given context.
Of course, the situation with drivers can also be somewhat challenging at times, unless you use the proprietary ones and even then you sometimes have to rely on solutions such as Wine (or Proton, but only for select games) to be able to enjoy games and some other interactive content. There is the upside of being able to use Mono to also run some of the .NET software and honestly the cross-OS interoperability of at least some software feels amazing just because it even exists in the first place, but admittedly there is too much Windows centric software out there that people will have to give up when moving to Linux distros.
This definitely cannot be ignored, since many workflows out there are built around particular tools and their interfaces as well, which won't always be ported, given that they're proprietary. Actually, if Linux had a bigger market share, it'd get more attention, but sadly it's only dominant in the server space and has largely gone under the radar for desktop software. It seems to be changing, but slowly.
To sum up: in my opinion, there are definitely plenty of challenges and thorns that make Linux harder to use. Many are not due to any fault of its own, but rather the historic market conditions. That said, i'm glad that it's even a viable option for desktop computing nowadays and things do seem to be getting better!
I feel like this is true only sometimes and even then probably from a particular point of view. For example, i use XFCE for my desktop computers with DEB based distros.
Most of the time, things just work, do so pretty fast and not in a too resource intensive way (which would be a different story with GNOME, Cinnamon or KDE, all of which come close to the Windows desktop resource usage in some cases). However, there is also a lot of software out there, that relies on configuration files instead of UI configuration to get things done.
Take Redshift (a bit like f.lux) as an example, in which you can't edit the screen colors at the different times of day through the UI, but rather have to look up how and where to create a configuration file with the values that you need.
Furthermore, there is also a lot of software out there for *nix that doesn't have GUI front ends in the first place (unless someone has written one) or need to be installed from PPAs and such, or even necessitate messing around with AppImage or Flatpak ways of installation - all of those have their own reasons for existing, be it historical reasons or having to support a variety of system configurations, unlike just packaging an .exe file with some sort of an installer, but the bottom line is that this hinders usability for the common folk out there.
> Of course, usability always depends on the specific task you have to do in a given context.
Of course, the situation with drivers can also be somewhat challenging at times, unless you use the proprietary ones and even then you sometimes have to rely on solutions such as Wine (or Proton, but only for select games) to be able to enjoy games and some other interactive content. There is the upside of being able to use Mono to also run some of the .NET software and honestly the cross-OS interoperability of at least some software feels amazing just because it even exists in the first place, but admittedly there is too much Windows centric software out there that people will have to give up when moving to Linux distros.
This definitely cannot be ignored, since many workflows out there are built around particular tools and their interfaces as well, which won't always be ported, given that they're proprietary. Actually, if Linux had a bigger market share, it'd get more attention, but sadly it's only dominant in the server space and has largely gone under the radar for desktop software. It seems to be changing, but slowly.
To sum up: in my opinion, there are definitely plenty of challenges and thorns that make Linux harder to use. Many are not due to any fault of its own, but rather the historic market conditions. That said, i'm glad that it's even a viable option for desktop computing nowadays and things do seem to be getting better!
LOL, so true. I often need to have online meetings with engineers that for some reason prefer Linux as their desktop OS. Guess which meeting participants _always_ delay the meetings because they can't get their audio/video working for routine meetings?
If that happens to pretty tech savvy software engineers, the average user has zero chance of using Linux as a desktop effectively.
If that happens to pretty tech savvy software engineers, the average user has zero chance of using Linux as a desktop effectively.
It's very difficult to make most proprietary enterprise trash work with Linux. That will always be the case, no matter how superior or inferior the OS is, because unlocked hardware/OSes are bad for some business models based on lock-in/subscriptions, and that are meant to be a portion of entire ecosystems that are being sold. The only reason most of them work eventually is because Linux users are tinkerers, and usually completely against the wishes of the software vendors.
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An OS isn’t just an OS, it’s OS + apps. Doesn’t matter who’s fault it is. The bottom line is that productivity is affected.
Nevertheless you cannot reasonably say that the OS itself is bad. It's the pressure of the monopolies against freedom.
It's not about the blame game. When asking a user that has no care, ideology or stakes in the game how "good" an OS is... if the OS crashes, that OS is likely bad.
This is the overall the most important metric.
This is the overall the most important metric.
Linux does not crash anymore. Proprietary apps can though. Is it still on the OS?
Linux does crash. I've seen it crash yesterday. It depends on the hardware you're using.
When it crashes it's 100% a problem in kernel space. Driver issues, compatibility issues. It is NOT an app. The OS should not give the privilege to an app to crash anything else other than itself.
What you MEANT to say is Linux crashes less than before and likely never crashes for certain hardware.
OVERALL linux will still crash MORE than windows when you look at everything holistically.
When it crashes it's 100% a problem in kernel space. Driver issues, compatibility issues. It is NOT an app. The OS should not give the privilege to an app to crash anything else other than itself.
What you MEANT to say is Linux crashes less than before and likely never crashes for certain hardware.
OVERALL linux will still crash MORE than windows when you look at everything holistically.
> It depends on the hardware you're using.
Buy hardware designed for Linux and you will have no problems. Ideally, with preinstalled Linux.
Buy hardware designed for Linux and you will have no problems. Ideally, with preinstalled Linux.
It does matter. But companies should not pick software solution with garbage Linux support if some employees are using Linux.
Nobody would pick a software that does not work on Windows and Macos.
There’re companies that solve it easily by just giving everyone the same laptop. Most of the times you can’t make everyone happy.
I've been using Ubuntu for years, including all throughout the pandemic and the resulting remote work. I use it on my desktop, laptop, builtin camera, external camera, on the computers, through my home theatre HDMI connection, slack calls, zoom, teams, Google meet...
I've can't recall ever have an issue getting my sound working that didn't involve opening settings and making sure the right input/output were selected.
I feel the need to add this to the conversation so people are not dissuaded from trying great open source projects.
I've can't recall ever have an issue getting my sound working that didn't involve opening settings and making sure the right input/output were selected.
I feel the need to add this to the conversation so people are not dissuaded from trying great open source projects.
Funny, my experience has been that windows users had trouble to connect their fancy bluetooth headsets with the proper profile, or they forgot to charge their airpods and had to scramble to get a replacement earphone... all the linux devs on my team (myself included) manage to connect to zoom, slack or google meet without any issue.
The difference is we know already what works with our equipment and what doesn't, so we don't wait until the last minute to figure out if some gadget can be used in an important setting? Also important, some of the engineers that "for some reason prefer Linux" know something that you don't, like the importance of adopting open standards and buying from hardware companies that do not lock you in into their ecosystem?
The difference is we know already what works with our equipment and what doesn't, so we don't wait until the last minute to figure out if some gadget can be used in an important setting? Also important, some of the engineers that "for some reason prefer Linux" know something that you don't, like the importance of adopting open standards and buying from hardware companies that do not lock you in into their ecosystem?
Maybe when this crisis is over, those Linux devs should come one day earlier when trying to do presentations on our beamers, instead of showing us the configuration mighty of xrandr.
It's the other day around. You should be asking them what beamers they would be able to use on their Linux systems with good support and that does not require complicated tools, instead of buying something that is not supported (yet!) and claiming later that Linux is crap because it doesn't work for your particular type of hardware.
Except at the end of the day catering for 1% of the desktop is too much to ask for to cripple business operations with, when 99% of everyone else is coming in with Windows and macOS laptops.
Not at all. The peripherals that work with Linux also will (likely) work with Windows or MacOS.
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Yeah, and usually more constraint in capabilities.
If by "capability" you mean not supporting some latest standard that provides marginal benefit over established solutions (e.g, Wi-Fi b/n/c/whatever, "cloud printing") or anti-features (Apple's "Pro" touchbar), then yes. But if you mean being able to do anything actually useful, I'd say that maybe only those working with Audio Processing still are under-served by Linux Desktop - and even that will change soon with Pipewire.
In my case, I've had a few issues with screen sharing online meetings:
- Webex doesn't provide screen sharing in larger meetings via WebRTC. It really sucks, since it works in smaller ones and people really get suprised by this.
- The last time I used Webex via their "desktop" app, they didn't properly support pipewire.
- Same with zoom, except that they don't seem to provide browser meetings at all sometimes & their app doesn't seem to support pipewire
I've had no issues with jitsi or bbb in the meantime, since they simply allow me to use my browser. Same with other screen recording software. For me, it's pretty clear that the issue lies with vendors trying to make people install their software and then not properly supporting it on linux.
This impedes the usability of linux for this purpose, but there's little that can come from people other than the vendors. Open Source software seems to work fine.
- Webex doesn't provide screen sharing in larger meetings via WebRTC. It really sucks, since it works in smaller ones and people really get suprised by this.
- The last time I used Webex via their "desktop" app, they didn't properly support pipewire.
- Same with zoom, except that they don't seem to provide browser meetings at all sometimes & their app doesn't seem to support pipewire
I've had no issues with jitsi or bbb in the meantime, since they simply allow me to use my browser. Same with other screen recording software. For me, it's pretty clear that the issue lies with vendors trying to make people install their software and then not properly supporting it on linux.
This impedes the usability of linux for this purpose, but there's little that can come from people other than the vendors. Open Source software seems to work fine.
> Webex doesn't provide screen sharing in larger meetings via WebRTC
Can you not capture your screen manually and make it available to your browser as a generic web cam? (Not that you should have to, but still.)
> [Zoom] don't seem to provide browser meetings at all sometimes
Last time I used it they were engaging in website trickery. You had to click the link to download (and maybe do something else) before it would present you with the "join from browser" link.
Can you not capture your screen manually and make it available to your browser as a generic web cam? (Not that you should have to, but still.)
> [Zoom] don't seem to provide browser meetings at all sometimes
Last time I used it they were engaging in website trickery. You had to click the link to download (and maybe do something else) before it would present you with the "join from browser" link.
Zoom is the shittiest pile of dark patterns. I hate it.
But I can confirm that it works just fine in the browser on Linux.
But I can confirm that it works just fine in the browser on Linux.
> Can you not capture your screen manually and make it available to your browser as a generic web cam?
I could but I didn't anticipate that issue with larger meetings and it caught me by surprise
My understanding is that the web cam also uses different compression, leading to issues with readability
> Last time I used it they were engaging in website trickery. You had to click the link to download (and maybe do something else) before it would present you with the "join from browser" link.
Tried that since I've already heard about these dark patterns, but wasn't able to. It's easier and more intuitive to add a local account on windows.
I could but I didn't anticipate that issue with larger meetings and it caught me by surprise
My understanding is that the web cam also uses different compression, leading to issues with readability
> Last time I used it they were engaging in website trickery. You had to click the link to download (and maybe do something else) before it would present you with the "join from browser" link.
Tried that since I've already heard about these dark patterns, but wasn't able to. It's easier and more intuitive to add a local account on windows.
In my particular case, my fellow workmates in Windows are the ones that have problems with audio. My only problem is with Discord when I share a game screen and my FPS go down to the river.
If the average user means past normal Windows users, maybe yes at first (all changes need relearning a little bit)
But a 0 experience person? It will take maybe less to an user to learn PopOS than Windows.
If the average user means past normal Windows users, maybe yes at first (all changes need relearning a little bit)
But a 0 experience person? It will take maybe less to an user to learn PopOS than Windows.
Oh dear. I’ve definitely been that dev.
Personally I prefer Linux, especially for software development. But the company’s default Linux distro (Fedora) can make life “interesting“ when working remotely. E.g. most screenshare only sort of works with Wayland. And now the audio fails, seemingly at random. (At least, I haven’t worked out the trigger yet.)
Unfortunately, as others have noted, there isn’t a huge incentive for companies to support desktop Linux. But it seems worth persisting to avoid the total dominance of one OS controlled by one company.
Having said that, given day to day needs like video calls, it’s probably worth using a less cutting-edge Linux distro at work!
Personally I prefer Linux, especially for software development. But the company’s default Linux distro (Fedora) can make life “interesting“ when working remotely. E.g. most screenshare only sort of works with Wayland. And now the audio fails, seemingly at random. (At least, I haven’t worked out the trigger yet.)
Unfortunately, as others have noted, there isn’t a huge incentive for companies to support desktop Linux. But it seems worth persisting to avoid the total dominance of one OS controlled by one company.
Having said that, given day to day needs like video calls, it’s probably worth using a less cutting-edge Linux distro at work!
That's a poor argument. Usually this happens to "tech savvy" people when they like to tinker with their system on daily basis and use bleeding edge software (since you have unlimited customizability, unlike the competition), you're bound to have issues. Normal users can just use an LTS release and (for the average user) they won't even be able to tell the difference.
Talk to anyone who installs beta iOS versions and ask them how much crap they have to deal with.
Talk to anyone who installs beta iOS versions and ask them how much crap they have to deal with.
There is a fairly high chance that beta iOS would smoke even Debian stable out of the window in term of stability for end users. I run Windows with Windows Insider enabled with Dev channel (basically the most beta Windows there is), and no Ubuntu version I've used came close to that Windows setup with regards to stability.
I choose to use Linux despite the bad UX and bad stability for end user. Linux server (and packages) are supremely stable, but any package involving end-user stuffs (sounds, graphics, even Firefox) is an entirely different story altogether.
I choose to use Linux despite the bad UX and bad stability for end user. Linux server (and packages) are supremely stable, but any package involving end-user stuffs (sounds, graphics, even Firefox) is an entirely different story altogether.
> There is a fairly high chance that beta iOS would smoke even Debian stable out of the window in term of stability for end users.
You could not have chosen a worse example distro to throw in your flawed presumption. Debian is one of the most rigorously tested and sought after distros specifically for its stability.
There's nothing wrong in you preferring to use Windows or Mac. But throwing unsubstantiated claims around is foolish.
You could not have chosen a worse example distro to throw in your flawed presumption. Debian is one of the most rigorously tested and sought after distros specifically for its stability.
There's nothing wrong in you preferring to use Windows or Mac. But throwing unsubstantiated claims around is foolish.
Not a chance. I resent greatly the huge amount of time I spend troubleshooting Apple product when I would never use it. The quality is fine, but not exceptionally good, and things that are trivial on other OSes are often impossible or forbidden on Apple product. Even to a further extent than Microsoft, who have the disadvantage of not owning the hardware.
This does not match my experience at all. Debian stable is hands down the most robust and well tested collection of software I have ever used. All issues have been on my end - either hardware failure or my own ignorance while mucking about in the configs.
LibreOffice specifically had serious stability issues a few years ago but has been much better lately. You could run Microsoft Office under Wine all along though (or use Google Docs, etc). Nothing preventing you from paying for stable software in that particular case.
Admittedly 3D graphics (not 2D office applications) can be rocky depending on your vendor. I've had good luck with AMD lately (but not in the past). That's entirely the fault of the vendors (AMD & Nvidia) though. Integrated Intel is and always has been absolutely flawless.
LibreOffice specifically had serious stability issues a few years ago but has been much better lately. You could run Microsoft Office under Wine all along though (or use Google Docs, etc). Nothing preventing you from paying for stable software in that particular case.
Admittedly 3D graphics (not 2D office applications) can be rocky depending on your vendor. I've had good luck with AMD lately (but not in the past). That's entirely the fault of the vendors (AMD & Nvidia) though. Integrated Intel is and always has been absolutely flawless.
>Admittedly 3D graphics (not 2D office applications) can be rocky depending on your vendor. I've had good luck with AMD lately (but not in the past). That's entirely the fault of the vendors (AMD & Nvidia) though. Integrated Intel is and always has been absolutely flawless.
This isn't like some caveat. This is huge. It's pretty bad in terms of overall usability.
This isn't like some caveat. This is huge. It's pretty bad in terms of overall usability.
> Guess which meeting participants _always_ delay the meetings because they can't get their audio/video working for routine meetings?
This can also be because this random enterprise want to use something other than zoom for some godforsaken reason.
Spend all that time to get your setup working, but congratulations, it doesn’t work with GloryOnlineMeeting 2.4.
This can also be because this random enterprise want to use something other than zoom for some godforsaken reason.
Spend all that time to get your setup working, but congratulations, it doesn’t work with GloryOnlineMeeting 2.4.
On this regard, it's often commercial software that are just bad with really poor support on Linux.
> This is a very narrow perspective that is only inflated if you're in IT or on an IT related site like HN.
And? I was responding to extremely overstated "open source projects will always provide a lower quality than comerical ones"
Even if Linux would be worse for 99% of people who are less IT-centered than me then it would be still counterexample for "always".
Open source project can be for 5 person worldwide without monetization plan. And beat commercial software for that people.
If someone wants to make claim "for average person it is typical that..." then make it, but this hyperbole was clearly false.
And? I was responding to extremely overstated "open source projects will always provide a lower quality than comerical ones"
Even if Linux would be worse for 99% of people who are less IT-centered than me then it would be still counterexample for "always".
Open source project can be for 5 person worldwide without monetization plan. And beat commercial software for that people.
If someone wants to make claim "for average person it is typical that..." then make it, but this hyperbole was clearly false.
My point is my point. Linux is generally inferior to windows from a usability standpoint.
We can get rid of the word always if you want. Nobody cares for such semantics. Generalities exist and clearly that's what most people mean when they talk about this. Linux is generally much worse from a usability standpoint than windows. Your post made a claim Linux was the better OS, but not only is Linux not always better, it's not even generally better.
We can get rid of the word always if you want. Nobody cares for such semantics. Generalities exist and clearly that's what most people mean when they talk about this. Linux is generally much worse from a usability standpoint than windows. Your post made a claim Linux was the better OS, but not only is Linux not always better, it's not even generally better.
> From almost every other dimension Linux is inferior and therefore from an Overall perspective it is inferior.
That's just preposterous. Linux user friendliness has not been slow or fragmented, it has come really far just in the last five years. Windows on the other hand has gotten relatively worse since the 'high' periods of early NT kernel OSes.
> The most important dimensions for an operating system are usability and compatibility.
Incorrect. It is only "one" of the important dimensions, but to call it "the most" important one is at -at the very least- misguided and absurd.
> The most important dimensions for an operating system are usability and compatibility. Average users are like this while hard core masochist programmers are willing to spend years decoding an interface
Your inability to use many of the user friendly distros available (like Mint or Elementary) cannot be generalized to the wider public.
Do some research.
That's just preposterous. Linux user friendliness has not been slow or fragmented, it has come really far just in the last five years. Windows on the other hand has gotten relatively worse since the 'high' periods of early NT kernel OSes.
> The most important dimensions for an operating system are usability and compatibility.
Incorrect. It is only "one" of the important dimensions, but to call it "the most" important one is at -at the very least- misguided and absurd.
> The most important dimensions for an operating system are usability and compatibility. Average users are like this while hard core masochist programmers are willing to spend years decoding an interface
Your inability to use many of the user friendly distros available (like Mint or Elementary) cannot be generalized to the wider public.
Do some research.
>Incorrect. It is only "one" of the important dimensions, but to call it "the most" important one is at -at the very least- misguided and absurd.
It is the most important dimension and the only dimension most users care about. Fully correct.
>Your inability to use many of the user friendly distros available (like Mint or Elementary) cannot be generalized to the wider public.
Illogical statement and incorrect. I've used Mint and elementary and all the issues remain. But let's say you're right.
Then this would STILL be a usability issues. Too many choices... a user has to dig and choose the right distro to be "easy" to use.
>Do some research.
You do the research. I'm more well informed than you.
It is the most important dimension and the only dimension most users care about. Fully correct.
>Your inability to use many of the user friendly distros available (like Mint or Elementary) cannot be generalized to the wider public.
Illogical statement and incorrect. I've used Mint and elementary and all the issues remain. But let's say you're right.
Then this would STILL be a usability issues. Too many choices... a user has to dig and choose the right distro to be "easy" to use.
>Do some research.
You do the research. I'm more well informed than you.
But was Linux superior prior to it becoming a commercial project. The majority of changes in the Linux kernel have for many years been done by people hired by large companies like Intel, Huawei and Red Hat/IBM. Linux is no longer created by a small team, but is now a large commercial project.
An interesting classification issue.
Original comment contrasted "commercial software" and "open source" so I interpreted it as "paid closed source software" vs "free open source".
But it is not covering all software and in some way Linux can be described as commercial.
Still there is plenty of other cases: say editing OpenStreetMap. In theory there is some ArcGis Esri plugin but for good reasons it is used by approximately noone, with everyone using open source software.
Though some was also developed by grant-supported developers. Is it making it commercial?
Original comment contrasted "commercial software" and "open source" so I interpreted it as "paid closed source software" vs "free open source".
But it is not covering all software and in some way Linux can be described as commercial.
Still there is plenty of other cases: say editing OpenStreetMap. In theory there is some ArcGis Esri plugin but for good reasons it is used by approximately noone, with everyone using open source software.
Though some was also developed by grant-supported developers. Is it making it commercial?
> That is not true. As far as I am concerned Linux is clearly superior OS for my laptop over commercial alternatives.
I love Linux. I'm a Linux desktop user but I can 100% say my experience is degraded compared to mac and windows users. Not just in apps that are there but in small things like sometimes it changes which mic is being used without telling me.
Driver support is also a thing.
I have my GUI crash on me on a semi regular basis.
And that is on Ubuntu which is a commerical product. And probably the best funded desktop linux there is.
Simply put, it is not stable.
I love Linux. I'm a Linux desktop user but I can 100% say my experience is degraded compared to mac and windows users. Not just in apps that are there but in small things like sometimes it changes which mic is being used without telling me.
Driver support is also a thing.
I have my GUI crash on me on a semi regular basis.
And that is on Ubuntu which is a commerical product. And probably the best funded desktop linux there is.
Simply put, it is not stable.
As a user of Linux on my daily driver I recently received a machine with windows 10 for a work project. I've been using it about 50% of the time for the past 2 months and I'm missing Linux big time. It's slower on better hardware, it does seemingly unpredictable things, software crashes more often and the driver situation is still a problem contrary to what everyone has told me. There's countless design choices that make my workflows harder as well.
I also have a Mac mini, and my wife has a MacBook pro. They are better but stability has never been an issue with my Linux desktop experience. I've been using it since 2005 or so. It used to offer far less software and a worse user experience but was always very stable.
Arch BTW.
I also have a Mac mini, and my wife has a MacBook pro. They are better but stability has never been an issue with my Linux desktop experience. I've been using it since 2005 or so. It used to offer far less software and a worse user experience but was always very stable.
Arch BTW.
> I have my GUI crash on me on a semi regular basis
That's true for me at 16.04 or below. I don't really remember encountering one on 18.04 or 20.04 though. May share your use case?
That's true for me at 16.04 or below. I don't really remember encountering one on 18.04 or 20.04 though. May share your use case?
Same here. As of 18.04LTS Ubuntu has been more stable than Windows 7 ever was for me.
20.04 on a Dell XPS.
Possible causing factors, java, spotify, or slack.
Possible causing factors, java, spotify, or slack.
I get that argument, but depending on what is being discussed, it might miss the point. If it is "end user experience", then I agree that lack of driver support or software matters. However, if we are comparing operating systems, what they do, and how they do it, I find Linux to be so far ahead of both Windows and MacOS (and I've used all three) that it shouldn't even be much of a question. The limiting factor is, in my experience, only software and driver availability.
"Well, that's kinda a big and important thing to ignore" I hear you say. And, I agree. But, it's also not an inadequacy of Linux itself.
I've had this discussion quite a few times, so to distill it down, "OS A is better than OS B" tend to touch on the following:
- Software availability is better (not a limitation of the OS, but I hear you)
- Privacy is better (while, for example MacOS, not being aware that every single executed executable is being logged and transmitted unencrypted)
- User experience is better (while not having given latest gnome a try, which aside from subjective preference is really well done, and in my subjective experience, much more intuitive than apple's approach, as well as windows' "here's two ways to do the same thing")
- ̶A̶r̶t̶i̶f̶i̶c̶i̶a̶l̶ ̶h̶a̶r̶d̶w̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶l̶i̶m̶i̶t̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶s̶ ̶ hardware is better. For Apple hardware, this was sort of true up until around 2010. Since then, you get so much less value I'm amazed they can still pull it off.
I see MacOS and Windows going more and more in the direction of a "mobile OS" which less freedom and more telemetry. I see the growing collection of open source hardware as humanity's effort to build something for everyone. Imagine how sad the world would be if Linux or OSS didn't exist.
"Well, that's kinda a big and important thing to ignore" I hear you say. And, I agree. But, it's also not an inadequacy of Linux itself.
I've had this discussion quite a few times, so to distill it down, "OS A is better than OS B" tend to touch on the following:
- Software availability is better (not a limitation of the OS, but I hear you)
- Privacy is better (while, for example MacOS, not being aware that every single executed executable is being logged and transmitted unencrypted)
- User experience is better (while not having given latest gnome a try, which aside from subjective preference is really well done, and in my subjective experience, much more intuitive than apple's approach, as well as windows' "here's two ways to do the same thing")
- ̶A̶r̶t̶i̶f̶i̶c̶i̶a̶l̶ ̶h̶a̶r̶d̶w̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶l̶i̶m̶i̶t̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶s̶ ̶ hardware is better. For Apple hardware, this was sort of true up until around 2010. Since then, you get so much less value I'm amazed they can still pull it off.
I see MacOS and Windows going more and more in the direction of a "mobile OS" which less freedom and more telemetry. I see the growing collection of open source hardware as humanity's effort to build something for everyone. Imagine how sad the world would be if Linux or OSS didn't exist.
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linux mint somewhat improves ubuntu for the desktop, and fixes many of the little things.
Reading the comments, and weighing your comment, you say we need to have Android to be successful.
Before that you say “we need apps”, that’s the heart of your comment.
It can be successfully argued that we don’t need more of what we already have (aka closed walled, ad ridden, privacy off by default - solutions)
We (as in developers) should start believing in these projects and adopt them. Blender for a long time couldn’t match the big boys of 3D creation. Right now it’s really gaining traction. I see a couple of factors for its succes:
- a well managed project with a equally good vision that adapted to changes and demands. - a crowd that believed it could be great - a funding path to attract devs and hire them for a wanted feature - a different way of looking at these projects instead of “we don’t have x from this ecosystem” , how can we as devs be the forerunners in creating something that supersedes it.
Before that you say “we need apps”, that’s the heart of your comment.
It can be successfully argued that we don’t need more of what we already have (aka closed walled, ad ridden, privacy off by default - solutions)
We (as in developers) should start believing in these projects and adopt them. Blender for a long time couldn’t match the big boys of 3D creation. Right now it’s really gaining traction. I see a couple of factors for its succes:
- a well managed project with a equally good vision that adapted to changes and demands. - a crowd that believed it could be great - a funding path to attract devs and hire them for a wanted feature - a different way of looking at these projects instead of “we don’t have x from this ecosystem” , how can we as devs be the forerunners in creating something that supersedes it.
If they focussed on the bare essentials, and where the work could make the most difference - as in value add - this could be a breakthrough device. By which I mean - in a world with Pegasus, and the (deserved) lack of trust in the CIA, Chinese, Russian and Israeli intelligence services, what is needed is simply secure voice and secure messaging, and a minimalistic secured kernel, and maybe integration with Vault or BitWarden at a push. Any apps would be in some individual sandboxed, isolated web environment, but very secondary.
Blender also had a massive investment that PinePhone does not have.
...that pine phone doesn't have "yet".
Fingers crossed that the coming pine phone 2.0 or 3.0 sails through on enhanced/xtended funding.
Fingers crossed that the coming pine phone 2.0 or 3.0 sails through on enhanced/xtended funding.
This is where you start, if PinePhone positions itself well, things -can- change.
Investments do not come out of nowhere.
Re: Blender's success, I think Ton & the older contributor community see it being due to a new generation of creatives having free access not only to the software, but a wealth of high quality learning material. Regarding the sponsorships, I would point at the persistent outreach done by Ton himself at SIGGRAPH and other events year after year.
I was saying for me to want to use it I want Android. Not just for apps but also for all the extra stablity features.
> Before that you say “we need apps”, that’s the heart of your comment.
Apps are major reason for using my phone. I don't really phone or text people I use whatsapp, telegram, etc for messaging, Twitter and Reddit for content and a browser for the rest. Then there are covid apps, health tracking apps, etc.
> It can be successfully argued that we don’t need more of what we already have (aka closed walled, ad ridden, privacy off by default - solutions)
Try getting traction when everyone compares you to those things and those things are what people want.
> We (as in developers) should start believing in these projects and adopt them. Blender for a long time couldn’t match the big boys of 3D creation. Right now it’s really gaining traction. I see a couple of factors for its succes:
The issue I see here is that the it supports multiple operating systems and each operating system is a small team. Everyone believes in their version of the operating system.
> Before that you say “we need apps”, that’s the heart of your comment.
Apps are major reason for using my phone. I don't really phone or text people I use whatsapp, telegram, etc for messaging, Twitter and Reddit for content and a browser for the rest. Then there are covid apps, health tracking apps, etc.
> It can be successfully argued that we don’t need more of what we already have (aka closed walled, ad ridden, privacy off by default - solutions)
Try getting traction when everyone compares you to those things and those things are what people want.
> We (as in developers) should start believing in these projects and adopt them. Blender for a long time couldn’t match the big boys of 3D creation. Right now it’s really gaining traction. I see a couple of factors for its succes:
The issue I see here is that the it supports multiple operating systems and each operating system is a small team. Everyone believes in their version of the operating system.
> I was saying for me to want to use it I want Android. Not just for apps but also for all the extra stablity features.
That kind of defeats the purpose of the whole thing. If you want android you can just buy an android phone.
That kind of defeats the purpose of the whole thing. If you want android you can just buy an android phone.
About Blender... I think the reason has more to do with the stagnation of animation/modelling tools since the monopoly of Autodesk has taken place. Maya seem to be getting more and more bloated throughout the years without any substantial features, while Blender's quickly gaining new ones while the whole program is being optimized and easier to use.
> I'm coming to the realisation that open source projects will always provide a lower quality than comerical ones
Open source vs commercial is a false dichotomy. But having migrated out of the Google/Facebook world, I find having sometimes less polished software that does what I want is a much better experience than big tech platforms that only allow me to do what they want.
Open source vs commercial is a false dichotomy. But having migrated out of the Google/Facebook world, I find having sometimes less polished software that does what I want is a much better experience than big tech platforms that only allow me to do what they want.
This is a way better way to describe it.
Open source projects will almost always provide a less polished product.
It'll often be better in ways that matter to me (eg availability of a given bit of software over a decade+ span of time, finer control over UX). But those things are not important to everyone, and that's fine.
Open source projects will almost always provide a less polished product.
It'll often be better in ways that matter to me (eg availability of a given bit of software over a decade+ span of time, finer control over UX). But those things are not important to everyone, and that's fine.
I'm with you, but this is the wrong place to come and say that. That attacks the ego of many people on here.
EDIT: But read the other comments on here and they actually prove you right: First hand reports of low build quality by the same manufacturer (downvoted, of course), someone saying "someone should just add X feature and I'd buy it" (as opposed to true-to-open-source "I'll add X feature, which will make it it a kick ass product")." Another comment that says "Yeah it runs many distros, but none of them polished". It all just sort of proves what you are saying.
EDIT: But read the other comments on here and they actually prove you right: First hand reports of low build quality by the same manufacturer (downvoted, of course), someone saying "someone should just add X feature and I'd buy it" (as opposed to true-to-open-source "I'll add X feature, which will make it it a kick ass product")." Another comment that says "Yeah it runs many distros, but none of them polished". It all just sort of proves what you are saying.
Per-programmer-hour I'd bet open source comes out on top, but overall it's basically impossible to compete with anyone with piles of cash.
I think the “open source vs commercial” framing can be adjusted slightly: Proprietary UI products are great and FOSS CLI software are great too.
The difference is that businesses require scaling, parallelism, distributed stake holding always, and that many parts of non-code product developments scale, while code authoring don’t/must not be.
That causes open source UI to be just under-resourced development compared to proprietary, and proprietary code to be just failed development because of over-distributed decision making.
The difference is that businesses require scaling, parallelism, distributed stake holding always, and that many parts of non-code product developments scale, while code authoring don’t/must not be.
That causes open source UI to be just under-resourced development compared to proprietary, and proprietary code to be just failed development because of over-distributed decision making.
“Under-resourced” is a good way to put it. There’s often a lack of UX design and thus a lack of polish – since there’s often no money to be made, there’s little to no incentive to bring it up from “works for me” to “works for everybody seamlessly“.
(I’ll spare us all the Pareto 80%/20% theory here, although I am pretty sure that it applies here.)
The upside is that open source or free software features fewer (and often no) antipatterns modern proprietary software suffers from.
(I’ll spare us all the Pareto 80%/20% theory here, although I am pretty sure that it applies here.)
The upside is that open source or free software features fewer (and often no) antipatterns modern proprietary software suffers from.
There’s also quite a scorn in parts of the open source world for UX and design in general.
Attempts at making software more approachable are accused of dumbing down or prioritising form over function. There’s an attitude that it’s not ‘real work’ if you don’t have to memorise tonnes of inscrutable commands or spend ages tinkering with config files.
Attempts at making software more approachable are accused of dumbing down or prioritising form over function. There’s an attitude that it’s not ‘real work’ if you don’t have to memorise tonnes of inscrutable commands or spend ages tinkering with config files.
There are many big ego dudes that think they know what good UX is , they never do any usability tests. From my memory only Unity did real usability tests and for GNOME many-many years ago some student attempted to do something.
So IMO a dude that read some UX book is not entitled to "know better" what actual users need, especially people that do UX design for an app that they don't even use , so they apply dogmatic principles , remove features that were added because users asked for them( this happened at my work in the past too, designrers removed stuff , stuff that users asked for and developers spent a lot of effort to implement it , ex deleting more items at a time, because they think that repeting same 3 click operation over and over again is enoug.
UX should be done by competent people that actually used the programs or even better that test their designs with actual users.
So IMO a dude that read some UX book is not entitled to "know better" what actual users need, especially people that do UX design for an app that they don't even use , so they apply dogmatic principles , remove features that were added because users asked for them( this happened at my work in the past too, designrers removed stuff , stuff that users asked for and developers spent a lot of effort to implement it , ex deleting more items at a time, because they think that repeting same 3 click operation over and over again is enoug.
UX should be done by competent people that actually used the programs or even better that test their designs with actual users.
The careers of many people (not just technical) who work in a business relying on the technology these days would not exist in the same way without open source and free software (that whatever product or software you are currently to make those comments relies on).
There's nothing wrong with criticism, but to give simplistic arguments (if they can be called arguments event) and say that it's "low quality" or "will not work" is just absolutely incorrect. But when it gets defended you call it "attacks the ego of many people"? That's just ridicules.
There's nothing wrong with criticism, but to give simplistic arguments (if they can be called arguments event) and say that it's "low quality" or "will not work" is just absolutely incorrect. But when it gets defended you call it "attacks the ego of many people"? That's just ridicules.
The reason Linux phones suck at calls has nothing to do with the quality of the software, it's that the hardware vendors make it very very hard to do a very basic thing in a FOSS way.
I honestly think the government should step in.
I honestly think the government should step in.
The sad part is that governments did step in and mandated that anything with a radio MUST follow a bunch of rules (certification) and MUST implement measures to ensure that the device cannot reasonably be made to operate outside of those rules.
The end result is that while difficult, you can make something like a pinephone where everything is open source EXCEPT for the radio modules and their firmware.
The end result is that while difficult, you can make something like a pinephone where everything is open source EXCEPT for the radio modules and their firmware.
You have to think of the long game when comparing open source and closed source projects. If you need an app in a year, a well-funded closed source effort will win every time. But open source projects with significant mind share from developers (market share is irrelevant for the most part... developer mind share is the true wealth of an opensource project) just keep improving. Both Linux (yes even on the desktop), Blender, and LibreOffice(which admittedly still has a long way to go) are examples of this.
I would argue the closed source software you use is generally higher quality because we are just at the beginning of the conversation when it comes to software. If an open source project with enough mind share can take a long enough view, it is hard to see how it WON'T someday surpass its closed-source competitors. Funding is generally on the side of a closed source project, but time is always on the side of an open source one.
I would argue the closed source software you use is generally higher quality because we are just at the beginning of the conversation when it comes to software. If an open source project with enough mind share can take a long enough view, it is hard to see how it WON'T someday surpass its closed-source competitors. Funding is generally on the side of a closed source project, but time is always on the side of an open source one.
There are fundamental differences between typical commercial and open source software. The big advantage of commercial software is, that it is developed by larger teams with clear goals and deadlines set, to ship a product. The development team usually is larger and it is not only programmers but professionals of any profession can be involved in the development as needed, most importantly of course, graphical designers and artists.
For a lot software, the ability to access other commercial products or confidential information is needed to achieve all goals. Just think about the collaboration of Adobe with the different camera companies to ensure that all kind of files from the cameras are supported perfectly - here also color-correct hardware for the developers is needed, not necessarily available in open source projects.
In that respect, commercial software is difficult to beat, if ever. But then, open source plays a differnt game. It is less driven by deadlines to ship, commercial requirements or restrictions, not driven by marketing, for good or bad. The user interaction might not be as polished, but things an open source software does well, it usually does really well. It is difficult to bet often decades of development.
In that respect, commercial software is difficult to beat, if ever. But then, open source plays a differnt game. It is less driven by deadlines to ship, commercial requirements or restrictions, not driven by marketing, for good or bad. The user interaction might not be as polished, but things an open source software does well, it usually does really well. It is difficult to bet often decades of development.
Android is extremely unpolished, user-hostile and low-quality in general.
People don't run it because of software quality.
People don't run it because of software quality.
> I'm coming to the realisation that open source projects will always provide a lower quality than commercial ones
That's demonstrably wrong. Examples are so abundant and obvious that I'm not sure I need to mention any, but for the sake of argument. In software: Linux, Gimp, Firefox, VLC, Blender, OpenOffice, ... In hardware: Arduino, Raspberry Pi, Beagleboard, UltiMaker, Adafruit products, Sparkfun Electronics products, etc...
That's demonstrably wrong. Examples are so abundant and obvious that I'm not sure I need to mention any, but for the sake of argument. In software: Linux, Gimp, Firefox, VLC, Blender, OpenOffice, ... In hardware: Arduino, Raspberry Pi, Beagleboard, UltiMaker, Adafruit products, Sparkfun Electronics products, etc...
> Examples are so abundant and obvious that I'm not sure I need to mention any, but for the sake of argument. In software: Linux, Gimp, Firefox, VLC, Blender, OpenOffice
If you picked an average computer user at random (read: not people on HN) and had them try out Linux, Gimp, and OpenOffice, I don't think they'd agree with you that they're as high-quality as their commercial alternatives.
If you picked an average computer user at random (read: not people on HN) and had them try out Linux, Gimp, and OpenOffice, I don't think they'd agree with you that they're as high-quality as their commercial alternatives.
Average users use Linux all the time, it’s in everything. You’d need to ask the developers writing all these router OSes, smart televisions, Android phones, … whether they chose Linux because of its high quality or, I guess, randomly?..
Try giving an average user Photoshop. See how they weep. These thought experiments are really hard to apply to software on complex domains.
OpenOffice is indeed a terrible example.
Try giving an average user Photoshop. See how they weep. These thought experiments are really hard to apply to software on complex domains.
OpenOffice is indeed a terrible example.
> You’d need to ask the developers writing all these router OSes, smart televisions, Android phones, … whether they chose Linux because of its high quality or, I guess, randomly?
Or cost... or abundance of existing tooling for... or a ton more factors that are all considered. And quality itself is multidimensional. Something might be good for engineering flexibility but terrible for exposure to end users, or vice versa. And engineers can work around shortcomings much better than end users can.
OSes aren't like Javascript frameworks. There are only so many viable choices for a given domain. It's like if someone chose T-Mobile over AT&T and Verizon and you automatically concluded it's because of quality.
Or cost... or abundance of existing tooling for... or a ton more factors that are all considered. And quality itself is multidimensional. Something might be good for engineering flexibility but terrible for exposure to end users, or vice versa. And engineers can work around shortcomings much better than end users can.
OSes aren't like Javascript frameworks. There are only so many viable choices for a given domain. It's like if someone chose T-Mobile over AT&T and Verizon and you automatically concluded it's because of quality.
Abundance of existing tooling is part of quality, yes. Practical absence of non-free choices is also a sign that free software does things right in this domain.
I do not understand the argument. Linux won. It won because it — for a variety of reasons — fits certain domains well.
I do not understand the argument. Linux won. It won because it — for a variety of reasons — fits certain domains well.
Indeed, and they do so willingness, because the Linux kernel is a detail completely hidden away to them.
The OS vendor can change the kernel being used, and those average users won't notice it all.
The only quality is being a free beer OS, that the OEM vendors can leech at will without bothering one second up-streaming their changes.
And when the community started to be too vocal about it, efforts to use MIT/BSD licensed alternatives were set in motion.
In a couple of years those router OSes, smart televisions, Android phones won't be using the Linux kernel any longer.
The OS vendor can change the kernel being used, and those average users won't notice it all.
The only quality is being a free beer OS, that the OEM vendors can leech at will without bothering one second up-streaming their changes.
And when the community started to be too vocal about it, efforts to use MIT/BSD licensed alternatives were set in motion.
In a couple of years those router OSes, smart televisions, Android phones won't be using the Linux kernel any longer.
The quality is being solid, easy to develop for, and, yes, free. I think you overestimate the ability of appliance companies to develop proprietary OS kernels.
MIT/BSD licensed stuff is still free software.
MIT/BSD licensed stuff is still free software.
Having fun enjoying the free software from PlayStation 4 OS?
I advise you to read about Zephyr OS, FreeRTOS, Azure RTOS, Fuchsia, NuttX,....
I advise you to read about Zephyr OS, FreeRTOS, Azure RTOS, Fuchsia, NuttX,....
Zephyr is Apache licensed, FreeRTOS MIT, Fuchsia BSD/MIT/Apache, NuttX Apache. ThreadX is the only one on your list that's not free software, and the success it achieved over its 24 years of existence is not anything to write home about.
A closed-source OS in this space has no real chance, as it has to be adapted by hardware makers. Microsoft may be able to provide the backing for wider ThreadX adoption, but don't hold your breath.
I don't see how the fact that BSD allows proprietary forks implies it is not high-quality software.
A closed-source OS in this space has no real chance, as it has to be adapted by hardware makers. Microsoft may be able to provide the backing for wider ThreadX adoption, but don't hold your breath.
I don't see how the fact that BSD allows proprietary forks implies it is not high-quality software.
I could bother to explain, but will let the Apples, Amazons, Facebooks,Sonys of the world let you know how the rules of the game in big boys club.
Again, where is the source code to Playstation OS 4 or clang bitcode changes for watchOS?
Got to love FOSS.
Again, where is the source code to Playstation OS 4 or clang bitcode changes for watchOS?
Got to love FOSS.
I do not understand what you are talking about. This started as a proposition that “normal users do not use Linux”. They obviously do. You are sore that corporations use BSD licensed code without letting us see or modify their forks. So am I. What does that have to do with the topic?
> I don't think they'd agree with you
I think that’s mostly due to them being different from the thing they are used to, not because they’re inferior.
I’d be more interested in what people going in the other direction (e.g. from LibreOffice to MS Office) would say.
I think that’s mostly due to them being different from the thing they are used to, not because they’re inferior.
I’d be more interested in what people going in the other direction (e.g. from LibreOffice to MS Office) would say.
My relatives are using Linux with LibreOffice just fine, no complains. You will only have problems if you must use proprietary apps from monopolies which actively fight against freedom.
i use libreoffice every day and love it. writer is great. it has an easy menu. (personally, i have found ms office annoying ever since their ribbon device). and calc is a great spreadsheet. i think it is psychic a lot of the time, knowing what i want to do.
I assume you're defining high-quality as easy-to use? If so, then that definition is lacking at best.
No, I'm not defining it. "High-quality" is in the question you would ask the user. They respond to you based on their own best judgment of what it means to them.
I don't know what to tell you other than you probably haven't used any recent version of these software. I know many people who are not tech-savvy and use OpenOffice, Gimp or Blender daily. They're both reliable and function (in some aspects) on par with the commercially available stuff.
> I don't know what to tell you other than you probably haven't used any recent version of these software.
Well you would be wrong. I have LibreOffice 7.1.4.2 in front of me right now and it still can't correctly render stuff I had from 2014. The text boxes and stuff all end up in massively wrong positions, like they always have. (And they render fine in Word, like they always have.)
Similarly, first Excel spreadsheet I try to open in it gives this error: Warning loading {document}: The data could not be loaded completely because the maximum number of columns per sheet was exceeded.
I could waste my time with other examples but it would be that: wasting my time.
Don't get me wrong, I'm rooting for them. Maybe someday there will finally come a free office program that can function like MS Office did a decade ago. I'm looking forward to seeing it before I die. But in the meantime, there's just no way we can honestly tell people LibreOffice is as high-quality as MS Office, regardless of how much we want that to be the case. It's just a lie we keep telling ourselves.
> (in some aspects)
...you just made my point for me.
Well you would be wrong. I have LibreOffice 7.1.4.2 in front of me right now and it still can't correctly render stuff I had from 2014. The text boxes and stuff all end up in massively wrong positions, like they always have. (And they render fine in Word, like they always have.)
Similarly, first Excel spreadsheet I try to open in it gives this error: Warning loading {document}: The data could not be loaded completely because the maximum number of columns per sheet was exceeded.
I could waste my time with other examples but it would be that: wasting my time.
Don't get me wrong, I'm rooting for them. Maybe someday there will finally come a free office program that can function like MS Office did a decade ago. I'm looking forward to seeing it before I die. But in the meantime, there's just no way we can honestly tell people LibreOffice is as high-quality as MS Office, regardless of how much we want that to be the case. It's just a lie we keep telling ourselves.
> (in some aspects)
...you just made my point for me.
> Similarly, first Excel document I try to open in it gives this error: Warning loading {document}: The data could not be loaded completely because the maximum number of columns per sheet was exceeded.
That's not exactly a fair assessment exercise. I'm not sure what format is the original excel file, but xlsb is a proprietary format.
My experience with Writer is wonderful. Have not had any issues and I know many people who use it daily with no issues.
Try to balance a picture and a couple of paragraphs in M$ Word in a long document and then come back to me on how that "high-quality" software handles it.
> there's just no way we can honestly tell people it's as high-quality as MS Office
Apparently, like many others in this entire thread, you've totally missed the point. I wasn't saying it's "as" high quality as M$ word (although I disagree with the usage of the word high quality here) but just that it is high quality by itself. This is known as an irrelevant conclusion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrelevant_conclusion
That's not exactly a fair assessment exercise. I'm not sure what format is the original excel file, but xlsb is a proprietary format.
My experience with Writer is wonderful. Have not had any issues and I know many people who use it daily with no issues.
Try to balance a picture and a couple of paragraphs in M$ Word in a long document and then come back to me on how that "high-quality" software handles it.
> there's just no way we can honestly tell people it's as high-quality as MS Office
Apparently, like many others in this entire thread, you've totally missed the point. I wasn't saying it's "as" high quality as M$ word (although I disagree with the usage of the word high quality here) but just that it is high quality by itself. This is known as an irrelevant conclusion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrelevant_conclusion
> Apparently, like many others in this entire thread, you've totally missed the point. I wasn't saying it's "as" high quality as M$ word (although I disagree with the usage of the word high quality here) but just that it is high quality by itself. This is known as an irrelevant conclusion
The entire discussion has been regarding this verbatim quote from the top comment: "open source projects will always provide a lower quality than commercial ones". If you replied regarding some other premise, then you're the one missing the point and changing the topic, not me.
> That's not exactly a fair assessment exercise
It sure is fair to me. Just saying this doesn't make it true. And a reality check is warranted here: "it's not fair" is not going to be a satisfactory response to any user you're trying to win over.
> I'm not sure what format is the original excel file, but xlsb is a proprietary format.
No, it's an open format [1], and LibreOffice supports opening it... with poor quality. And again: even if it was, you're not going to win over or satisfy any users with an "it's a proprietary format so we don't support that many columns" excuse. They expect their office programs to dance around their documents, not the other way around.
[1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/openspecs/office_file_forma...
The entire discussion has been regarding this verbatim quote from the top comment: "open source projects will always provide a lower quality than commercial ones". If you replied regarding some other premise, then you're the one missing the point and changing the topic, not me.
> That's not exactly a fair assessment exercise
It sure is fair to me. Just saying this doesn't make it true. And a reality check is warranted here: "it's not fair" is not going to be a satisfactory response to any user you're trying to win over.
> I'm not sure what format is the original excel file, but xlsb is a proprietary format.
No, it's an open format [1], and LibreOffice supports opening it... with poor quality. And again: even if it was, you're not going to win over or satisfy any users with an "it's a proprietary format so we don't support that many columns" excuse. They expect their office programs to dance around their documents, not the other way around.
[1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/openspecs/office_file_forma...
> I'm coming to the realisation that open source projects will always provide a lower quality than comerical ones.
Although you may be right, I prefer to be more optimistic. I think we tend to ignore the more successful premise of open source projects.
They (at their least) demonstrate people of a possibility of more sincere (more eco-friendly, user-friendly or budget-friendly) products and services.
Although you may be right, I prefer to be more optimistic. I think we tend to ignore the more successful premise of open source projects.
They (at their least) demonstrate people of a possibility of more sincere (more eco-friendly, user-friendly or budget-friendly) products and services.
open source is form of distribution of source code. that is all. open source is technically the same thing for Microsoft and pine and red hat and IBM, etc...
now remembering that open source is typically not democracy but rather fairy autocratic in respect to the project owner you can have - more inclusive or fairly non-inclusive community around it. so the source may be available but the community and the project may be as closed as it seems fit towards individuals that fail to cross certain threshold of required technical (or other) skills.
then software development is encompassed with number of other things - specifications, testing, devops and various integration activities that does not necessarily benefit from being open source. these activities that complement the software/hardware production are actually an important precursor for the perceived quality. it just so coincides that an open source project with proper amount of contributors will naturally benefit from peer-reviews of the code - as long as more than one person i sable to works on certain component of course.
for successful business or entrepreneurship one needs more than software development though - accounting, finance, marketing, packaging and in Pine's case - production of hardware... etc. these are not typically as open as the ... source in the software part. an even if they were - it does not mean they are automatically gotten right.
so to be absolutely fair - open source does not immediately on its own mean a better or even viable product. it means that parts of the system are available for independent review and potentially are free from license burden to be reused in other systems.
it seems a form of cognitive bias to assume that all components of products that are result of partial or entirely open-source process are by definition better to closed-source process.
now remembering that open source is typically not democracy but rather fairy autocratic in respect to the project owner you can have - more inclusive or fairly non-inclusive community around it. so the source may be available but the community and the project may be as closed as it seems fit towards individuals that fail to cross certain threshold of required technical (or other) skills.
then software development is encompassed with number of other things - specifications, testing, devops and various integration activities that does not necessarily benefit from being open source. these activities that complement the software/hardware production are actually an important precursor for the perceived quality. it just so coincides that an open source project with proper amount of contributors will naturally benefit from peer-reviews of the code - as long as more than one person i sable to works on certain component of course.
for successful business or entrepreneurship one needs more than software development though - accounting, finance, marketing, packaging and in Pine's case - production of hardware... etc. these are not typically as open as the ... source in the software part. an even if they were - it does not mean they are automatically gotten right.
so to be absolutely fair - open source does not immediately on its own mean a better or even viable product. it means that parts of the system are available for independent review and potentially are free from license burden to be reused in other systems.
it seems a form of cognitive bias to assume that all components of products that are result of partial or entirely open-source process are by definition better to closed-source process.
"open source projects will always provide a lower quality than comerical ones" not true, Kicad, Blender, Krita, Ardour ... But in this case hardware is on the mix, and it will take years to deliver an ecosystem competitive, also would be nicer to have middle class hardware and no ultra low cost. We will see if openhardware movement reach a decent quality. But I am agree with you that it will be almost impossible to reach the quality of latest Android and Iphone ones, but maybe we will reach a mid-class very productive phone with added privacy value.
In the case of "Linux on a phone" I think it makes more sense to take advantage of all the work Google has put into Android and just throw out the tracking and Google apps, like various projects are doing.
> it makes more sense to take advantage of all the work Google has put into Android
No, it doesn't: https://amosbbatto.wordpress.com/2020/08/05/advantages-of-ph....
No, it doesn't: https://amosbbatto.wordpress.com/2020/08/05/advantages-of-ph....
If that's your ideal then just LineageOS. For those that want a Linux distro first and only want the Android apps part of Android, wait for Anbox support on these mobile Linux distros.
It's really strange how different people's approach to technology can be.
I find that free software is generally better, more solid, more stable, and more useful on its own merits than commercial alternatives. There is a clear point where this breaks — new hardware, new hardware interactions — largely because hardware vendors do not do their jobs with regard to Linux / BSDs. But in terms of pure user-friendliness? it's not even a contest.
To me, user-friendliness implies that software is moldable to my workflows, and that other users' stuff is easy to integrate. Also, disruptive change is evil.
This concept of user-friendliness necessarily implies that software should be end-user programmable, and the pieces of the environment should be composable. Most commercial end-user software fails at this. There are clear commercial motivations why it should, given a need to sell 'apps' for every workflow, and the need to work in corporate environments (where limiting users' ability to interact is a necessity for the people who make software buying decisions).
iOS is especially bad at this, given the appification of everything. There seems to be an effort to do at least something good in Shortcuts, but it's very much not enough.
I do most computer stuff in Firefox, Emacs, and xterm. Or WSL (xterm and Emacs) on Windows when I'm on a Windows device because something requires it. I'm actually typing this on a Raspberry Pi, where I only have those three installed as graphical apps. I also occasionally need Darktable (which needs a GPU for any kind of performance) and Office, for which I power on a different computer. Which I would find extremely hostile without WSL.
You can also track how Linux things are percolating into Windows / macOS. Virtual desktops were a thing in Linuces for years and years before coming to those two. Tiling just begins to arrive. UNIX terminal environments are such a pain decreaser that even MS now has a way to use them. With my xmonad setup I live in the future, and that's the future that has been available for a decade.
Browsers are probably the most important user-facing applications right now, and are all opensource-originated. Whether corporate capture of KHTML did any good is a question; I don't think it did.
I find that free software is generally better, more solid, more stable, and more useful on its own merits than commercial alternatives. There is a clear point where this breaks — new hardware, new hardware interactions — largely because hardware vendors do not do their jobs with regard to Linux / BSDs. But in terms of pure user-friendliness? it's not even a contest.
To me, user-friendliness implies that software is moldable to my workflows, and that other users' stuff is easy to integrate. Also, disruptive change is evil.
This concept of user-friendliness necessarily implies that software should be end-user programmable, and the pieces of the environment should be composable. Most commercial end-user software fails at this. There are clear commercial motivations why it should, given a need to sell 'apps' for every workflow, and the need to work in corporate environments (where limiting users' ability to interact is a necessity for the people who make software buying decisions).
iOS is especially bad at this, given the appification of everything. There seems to be an effort to do at least something good in Shortcuts, but it's very much not enough.
I do most computer stuff in Firefox, Emacs, and xterm. Or WSL (xterm and Emacs) on Windows when I'm on a Windows device because something requires it. I'm actually typing this on a Raspberry Pi, where I only have those three installed as graphical apps. I also occasionally need Darktable (which needs a GPU for any kind of performance) and Office, for which I power on a different computer. Which I would find extremely hostile without WSL.
You can also track how Linux things are percolating into Windows / macOS. Virtual desktops were a thing in Linuces for years and years before coming to those two. Tiling just begins to arrive. UNIX terminal environments are such a pain decreaser that even MS now has a way to use them. With my xmonad setup I live in the future, and that's the future that has been available for a decade.
Browsers are probably the most important user-facing applications right now, and are all opensource-originated. Whether corporate capture of KHTML did any good is a question; I don't think it did.
> I'm coming to the realisation that open source projects will always provide a lower quality than comerical ones.
That depends entirely on the scope of the project.
Projects that can be built by one person are pretty much always better as open source.
That unfortunately does not include mobile operating systems though.
That depends entirely on the scope of the project.
Projects that can be built by one person are pretty much always better as open source.
That unfortunately does not include mobile operating systems though.
> Also, a large part of using a smart phone is the apps. Without apps the phone is just really a phone.
I attempt to list them all at https://linmobapps.frama.io.
I attempt to list them all at https://linmobapps.frama.io.
> open source projects will always provide a lower quality than comerical ones
linux, gnu utils, almost all programming languages and their entire ecosystems, firefox, blender and many more.
Are you just trolling?
You have a strange definition of "great." If any other phone exhibited those characteristics, I would write it off as garbage, not excuse its faults with a promise that they'll be fixed Real Soon Now™
You "I want a reliable phone that meets my daily needs" types like to think you have a monopoly on the term "great". Some of us like to take the scenic route to reading our messages.
To hopefully reading most of our messages.
He was just being polite. Standard unwritten rule : start with a single supportive positive line on a thing and then follow it by a whole page of criticism.
What do you think his defintion of great is?
Don't forget about the price: $200 doesn't get you flagship experience.
Depends on which year's. Pine64's SoC, Allwinner A64 is 4x 1,2 GHz Cortex-A53 chip, giving you about the same level of raw performance as a 2013 flagship phone.
And it will run smoothly, if you choose simple software: https://sr.ht/~mil/Sxmo/.
Though from a few videos it's got an incredibly primitive UI that mainly uses the side buttons instead of the big touchscreen. The interface seems much more apt for a feature phone than a smartphone. (Though I realize there can be some niche demand for a non-touchscreen Linux phone with a hardware keyboard... Maybe that's what might be more achievable in the FOSS Linux hobbyist scene than something like the Pinephone or the Librem 5.)
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Lately I have been trying out $200 range phones (with Android): the galaxy A31 for instance: it is the experience of a flagship phone from a few years ago. If the pinephone was that, I think everyone would be happy and yes, this is possible for $200. At least if you are Samsung?
So yeah, not flagship but close enough for a lot of people (side by side, the a32 vs s21, for me is not worth the 4x+ pricetag, as in the difference between flagship and not flagship is shrinking fast, ymmv), however...
The pinephone is worse hardware though (In almost all respects but the dipswitches) and the software, at this point, is really alpha quality mostly. But we know this: the promise it will run Linux smoothly on a phone is enough to buy one. It will take time but I would buy any phone that allows me to freely run multiple OSs new out of the box with all hardware supported.
So yeah, not flagship but close enough for a lot of people (side by side, the a32 vs s21, for me is not worth the 4x+ pricetag, as in the difference between flagship and not flagship is shrinking fast, ymmv), however...
The pinephone is worse hardware though (In almost all respects but the dipswitches) and the software, at this point, is really alpha quality mostly. But we know this: the promise it will run Linux smoothly on a phone is enough to buy one. It will take time but I would buy any phone that allows me to freely run multiple OSs new out of the box with all hardware supported.
For me, the killer feature is that pinephone runs mainline kernel.
According to https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices - that's a rather uncommon thing to have, and pretty much unobtainable for a recent device (other than pine64/librem5).
According to https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices - that's a rather uncommon thing to have, and pretty much unobtainable for a recent device (other than pine64/librem5).
Yes, agree. That is why it is OK that it is not the best at this point: there is not much competition.
OTOH about $200 gives you much more from some other ... err ... proprietary vendors, lets say Xiaomi/Poco M3 Pro, with the possibility of alternative firmware.
True. Unfortunately, the next person will ask about if this phone will have the same apps and games as they do on their iOS/Android device. They'll just say, does it have WhatsApp?, Netflix?, Instagram?, Snapchat?, TikTok?, Chrome?, 1Password?, etc, etc.
The fact that it has been admitted that 'it's slow, buggy, and flat out unreliable if you need to be able to receive / answer calls and texts for anything important' tells me that it is even worse than that 'Freedom Phone' since not only the PinePhone can't run the same apps as that, but it runs more sluggish than that.
I'd also write all of them off as garbage 'for now', since none of them can be recommended to the average Joe or Jane.
The fact that it has been admitted that 'it's slow, buggy, and flat out unreliable if you need to be able to receive / answer calls and texts for anything important' tells me that it is even worse than that 'Freedom Phone' since not only the PinePhone can't run the same apps as that, but it runs more sluggish than that.
I'd also write all of them off as garbage 'for now', since none of them can be recommended to the average Joe or Jane.
It has already been admitted that both the PinePhone and the Librem 5 cannot run these apps well enough to justify switching or even recommending them.
What use is a smartphone that claims to run apps (Native apps, Android apps or Web Apps) but runs them much worse than the user's previous device (or can't run them at all)? To the users hoping to make the switch, it feels more like a downgrade; especially PWAs.
For example, in the FAQ, Librem mentions:
> Unlike most mobile apps on Android and iOS, these applications were not written to monetize users' personal data or extract fees from users, and their code is free/open source, so it can be verified that they aren't spyware or contain code that acts against the best interest of their users.
Well it seems that Signal is a known and a widely recommended messaging app which generally doesn't do all the things claimed by Librem, yet many users that use Signal cannot even run it on their Librem 5 or PinePhone. So they will see no point in considering buying any of these phones anyway.
Therefore, these devices are still not ready yet to be considered serious alternatives to Android users or in general. They're going in the right direction, but it will take years of waiting for improvements in the current state of open source smart phones.
What use is a smartphone that claims to run apps (Native apps, Android apps or Web Apps) but runs them much worse than the user's previous device (or can't run them at all)? To the users hoping to make the switch, it feels more like a downgrade; especially PWAs.
For example, in the FAQ, Librem mentions:
> Unlike most mobile apps on Android and iOS, these applications were not written to monetize users' personal data or extract fees from users, and their code is free/open source, so it can be verified that they aren't spyware or contain code that acts against the best interest of their users.
Well it seems that Signal is a known and a widely recommended messaging app which generally doesn't do all the things claimed by Librem, yet many users that use Signal cannot even run it on their Librem 5 or PinePhone. So they will see no point in considering buying any of these phones anyway.
Therefore, these devices are still not ready yet to be considered serious alternatives to Android users or in general. They're going in the right direction, but it will take years of waiting for improvements in the current state of open source smart phones.
Signal apps are an issue, for sure. Signal desktop can run, but it's not fun, because it's not responsive at all. Currently, the best alternative available imho is Axolotl, which is what I use.[0]
[0] https://github.com/nanu-c/axolotl
[0] https://github.com/nanu-c/axolotl
> yet many users that use Signal cannot even run it on their Librem 5 or PinePhone
This is really a fault of Signal, because they forbid forks and do not provide a good app for GNU/Linux phones. It's like a walled garden. I do not use Signal for this reason.
This is really a fault of Signal, because they forbid forks and do not provide a good app for GNU/Linux phones. It's like a walled garden. I do not use Signal for this reason.
So that means I can only wait for Signal to at least work and run fast enough and reliably on Anbox before recommending it to Android users who use Signal to make the switch to either of these phones.
Until then, these users are going to have to be waiting for years of improvements first before jumping onboard a product that they will see as 'unfinished' or 'sluggish' than their previous phone.
Until then, these users are going to have to be waiting for years of improvements first before jumping onboard a product that they will see as 'unfinished' or 'sluggish' than their previous phone.
"... jut a phone and a mainline linux distribution."
From the OP:
"... the PinePhone runs mainline Linux as well as anything else you'll get it to run."
Linux is great but being able to run several different OS is, IMO, on a whole `nother level. For example, I am interested in running NetBSD. About 12 years ago, there was a phone called the T-Mobile Sidekick. What OS did it run. That phone was allegedly the first to sync the user data to the "cloud" and provide an "app marketplace". The founder of the company that created it later went on to co-found Android.
From the OP:
"... the PinePhone runs mainline Linux as well as anything else you'll get it to run."
Linux is great but being able to run several different OS is, IMO, on a whole `nother level. For example, I am interested in running NetBSD. About 12 years ago, there was a phone called the T-Mobile Sidekick. What OS did it run. That phone was allegedly the first to sync the user data to the "cloud" and provide an "app marketplace". The founder of the company that created it later went on to co-found Android.
The Danger Hiptop was branded as the T-Mobile Sidekick; later T-Mo used the Sidekick name for some other devices.
DangerOS required all applications to be written in Java and distributed via their store; if you stopped paying your subscription fee you would lose access to the store and to the online backup service as well.
Microsoft bought Danger and eventually closed it, killing all usage.
For a while it was the best device for sysadmins and the Deaf community -- because it had a keyboard and an SSH application.
DangerOS required all applications to be written in Java and distributed via their store; if you stopped paying your subscription fee you would lose access to the store and to the online backup service as well.
Microsoft bought Danger and eventually closed it, killing all usage.
For a while it was the best device for sysadmins and the Deaf community -- because it had a keyboard and an SSH application.
"DangerOS required all applications to be written in Java..."
Was Java a requirement of the OS or was it just a design choice by the developers. The OS was NetBSD AFAIK; of course one can run a JVM on NetBSD but that's not a requirement; I never do. Is Pinephone limited only to running Java applications. I want more programming options than just Java.
Was Java a requirement of the OS or was it just a design choice by the developers. The OS was NetBSD AFAIK; of course one can run a JVM on NetBSD but that's not a requirement; I never do. Is Pinephone limited only to running Java applications. I want more programming options than just Java.
No end user could run anything on a DangerOS device that didn't come from the store; nothing went into the store that wasn't written in Java and met their guidelines.
Pinephone is completely orthogonal to this.
Pinephone is completely orthogonal to this.
[deleted]
"Pinephone is completely orthogonal to this."
Do you mean Pine64 has no intention of trying to control what people do with the device?
Did anyone ever try to "root" the Sidekick? Always interested to hear more about it.
Do you mean Pine64 has no intention of trying to control what people do with the device?
Did anyone ever try to "root" the Sidekick? Always interested to hear more about it.
> Do you mean Pine64 has no intention of trying to control what people do with the device?
Explicitly not trying to control what you do makes up the majority of their business model.
Explicitly not trying to control what you do makes up the majority of their business model.
I mean that that the Pinephone is not a DangerOS device, so anything that I say about the Danger Hiptop has nothing to do with the Pinephone.
Given that each has its own name, and the names look and sound different, maybe it's safe to assume no one is going to confuse the two.
Is there such a thing as a "DangerOS device", or are there devices that can or cannot run "DangerOS" (e.g., NetBSD plus proprietary software). The official slogan of the open source project is "Of course it runs NetBSD!" not "Of course it is a NetBSD device."
Anything said about an OS does not necessarily have anything to do with the device it runs on. Nor does anything said about a device necessarily have anything to do the OS being run on it. That's why we can have OS that run on a variety of devices (e.g., NetBSD, Linux, etc.), as well as devices on which we can boot a variety of OS (e.g., RPi, Pinephone).
Unfortunately this important distinction is carefully omitted from tech company marketing, ignored by sycophant tech bloggers, tech journalists and everyone who follows and subscribes to their brand of anti-competitive "innovation". Hopefully more hardware like RPi and Pinephone can change some people's thinking and allow them to see the possibilities that are constantly being suppressed in the "war on general purpose computing".
Is there such a thing as a "DangerOS device", or are there devices that can or cannot run "DangerOS" (e.g., NetBSD plus proprietary software). The official slogan of the open source project is "Of course it runs NetBSD!" not "Of course it is a NetBSD device."
Anything said about an OS does not necessarily have anything to do with the device it runs on. Nor does anything said about a device necessarily have anything to do the OS being run on it. That's why we can have OS that run on a variety of devices (e.g., NetBSD, Linux, etc.), as well as devices on which we can boot a variety of OS (e.g., RPi, Pinephone).
Unfortunately this important distinction is carefully omitted from tech company marketing, ignored by sycophant tech bloggers, tech journalists and everyone who follows and subscribes to their brand of anti-competitive "innovation". Hopefully more hardware like RPi and Pinephone can change some people's thinking and allow them to see the possibilities that are constantly being suppressed in the "war on general purpose computing".
There are no longer any DangerOS devices. If you had a former DangerOS device, it is now dead hardware from the point of view of running DangerOS. You could buy one and look for a serial JTAG access and then hope for a root exploit -- I suspect that the boot process was not locked in any real way -- but you would have:
- a device with an extremely old battery
- without an open or available SDK
- with a pathetically slow CPU by modern standards
- with a pathetically small amount of RAM by modern standards
- with a mediocre keyboard under a screen with a nifty magnetic hinge mechanism but terrible specs (again, by modern standards)
- with, if I recall correctly, a very low speed GSM data connection
There's no reason to try to resurrect them.
- a device with an extremely old battery
- without an open or available SDK
- with a pathetically slow CPU by modern standards
- with a pathetically small amount of RAM by modern standards
- with a mediocre keyboard under a screen with a nifty magnetic hinge mechanism but terrible specs (again, by modern standards)
- with, if I recall correctly, a very low speed GSM data connection
There's no reason to try to resurrect them.
[deleted]
> Once they get the software worked out over the next few years though, it'll be the best thing out there.
This sentence reminded of the OpenMoko days, hopefully the hardware choices were better than in that era.
This sentence reminded of the OpenMoko days, hopefully the hardware choices were better than in that era.
I had a FreeRunner back in the day and have had a PinePhone for over a year now, and it has gotten me back to blogging [0] and creating videos after years of not doing that.
The hardware choices are in so far better, as this looks like a normal phone, is not limited to GPRS in a world where connected services based on 3G are taking off, and there‘s also no graphics decelerator built in. Imho, the biggest design flaw is the size of the battery: You don’t get much screen on time with this.
The AllWinner A64 is clearly not the most advanced piece of Silicon though, and support in Linux for that old chip is still advancing so things are a lot better than they were a year ago.
As far as user space software is advancing, there‘s more and more coming which I try to list at [1].
The key difference here is that PINE64 is just providing the hardware and is not very involved in software at all. Thankfully Purism make software for their Librem 5 (which would have been shipping for real by now, but than a component shortage hit the industry), which also runs on PinePhone and works quite well.
Projects like Plasma Mobile are catching up, and long standing Mobile Linux efforts like Sailfish OS and Ubuntu Touch have also been ported over.
[0] https://linmob.net
[1] https://LINMOBapps.frama.io
The hardware choices are in so far better, as this looks like a normal phone, is not limited to GPRS in a world where connected services based on 3G are taking off, and there‘s also no graphics decelerator built in. Imho, the biggest design flaw is the size of the battery: You don’t get much screen on time with this.
The AllWinner A64 is clearly not the most advanced piece of Silicon though, and support in Linux for that old chip is still advancing so things are a lot better than they were a year ago.
As far as user space software is advancing, there‘s more and more coming which I try to list at [1].
The key difference here is that PINE64 is just providing the hardware and is not very involved in software at all. Thankfully Purism make software for their Librem 5 (which would have been shipping for real by now, but than a component shortage hit the industry), which also runs on PinePhone and works quite well.
Projects like Plasma Mobile are catching up, and long standing Mobile Linux efforts like Sailfish OS and Ubuntu Touch have also been ported over.
[0] https://linmob.net
[1] https://LINMOBapps.frama.io
> buggy, and flat out unreliable if you need to be able to receive / answer calls and texts for anything important (e.g. work).
Out of curiosity, how do these bugs/unreliability manifest in realty? I've been fiddling around with making a mobile Linux distro specifically for a car navigation/entertainment system so I'm curious to get some circumstantial feedback.
Out of curiosity, how do these bugs/unreliability manifest in realty? I've been fiddling around with making a mobile Linux distro specifically for a car navigation/entertainment system so I'm curious to get some circumstantial feedback.
I have a Pinephone. It works well most of the time, but occasionally apps crash, or it cannot connect to WiFi, or becomes very slow. Reboot usually helps.
A good thing is that even if you buy it now and decide it's not reliable enough, you can be sure that the development will never stop and at some point it will be better than Android in every way. I would say in a year.
A good thing is that even if you buy it now and decide it's not reliable enough, you can be sure that the development will never stop and at some point it will be better than Android in every way. I would say in a year.
"be sure that the development will never stop and at some point it will be better than Android in every way. I would say in a year"
The current stage is pretty much unusable if you need a reliable phone.
So in one year already, it is supposed to be better than android in every way?
That is a very bold assumption. I mean, would be nice, but I doubt it and would be happy if it gets stable enough to simply use it as a phone and chatdevice, without hickups.
The current stage is pretty much unusable if you need a reliable phone.
So in one year already, it is supposed to be better than android in every way?
That is a very bold assumption. I mean, would be nice, but I doubt it and would be happy if it gets stable enough to simply use it as a phone and chatdevice, without hickups.
Unfortunately what will likely happen is if the project becomes extremely successful a big corporate interest will buddy up to the project and pretend to have the best interest of the community in mind as they make the project increasingly dependent on their funding and development resources until finally the shoe drops and the corporate interest has unofficial control over the pinephone project similar to Google with Ubuntu and IBM/Redhat with CentOS. Every one has a weakness and a price.
Yeah, that’s my main complaint. I want it to actually work as a phone before I want it to work like a small computer.
If hardware acceleration is fixed then user experience can see night and day difference. Unfortunately if anything to be seen from Raspberry Pi or other SBCs HW Acceleration seems like Nuclear Fusion due to different graphics API, standards, application/HW support etc.
Like any other failed attempt so far, assuming that they manage to keep enough money around for delivering those improvements over the next few years.
I carry around a Pinephone with my personal SIM and use it for most personal activities. I also carry about a work phone, which I use for work, and personal activites that I can't yet do on the Pinephone (maps, chromecast, etc.)
It's liberating to have plain old Linux on my phone. My phone is now introspectable, behaves like my other computers, and only runs software that does not track me.
I hack on these and am excited to see how well these continue to mature.
The Pinephone is too underpowered (camera, 2.4GHz, small battery) to be the a viable choice for most interested folks.
The Pinephone is the phone that will jumpstart developers and early adopters to building an ecosystem, and facilitate more powerful phones.
It's liberating to have plain old Linux on my phone. My phone is now introspectable, behaves like my other computers, and only runs software that does not track me.
I hack on these and am excited to see how well these continue to mature.
The Pinephone is too underpowered (camera, 2.4GHz, small battery) to be the a viable choice for most interested folks.
The Pinephone is the phone that will jumpstart developers and early adopters to building an ecosystem, and facilitate more powerful phones.
Can you explain why you have to use a different phone for maps? Couldn't you use a browser? Or do you mean navigation?
And is the GPS device optional or always included for all pinephones?
And is the GPS device optional or always included for all pinephones?
I use GNOME Maps for some things, but it doesn't do navigation.
I think GPS is always included on all Pinephones: https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php/PinePhone#GPS_.2F_GNSS
I think GPS is always included on all Pinephones: https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php/PinePhone#GPS_.2F_GNSS
You are still being tracked if you carry that other phone though.
Carriers in the US were recently caught selling e911 location data so you should probably assume that you're being tracked while carrying any device with an active cell network connection.
You're right. I would prefer no tracking, but am happy with having reduced the amount of tracking that occurs.
The store page mentions dead pixels; It's the first time I'm seeing a disclaimer like this on a smartphone. Is this normal? Why aren't other manufacturers mentioning this?
Source: https://pine64.com/product/pinephone-beta-edition-with-conve...
> A small numbers of stuck or dead pixels (1-3) can be a characteristic of LCD screens. While rare, this should not be considered a defect. If you think that a minor dissatisfaction, such as a dead pixel will prompt you to file a PayPal dispute, DO NOT purchase the PinePhone.
Source: https://pine64.com/product/pinephone-beta-edition-with-conve...
> A small numbers of stuck or dead pixels (1-3) can be a characteristic of LCD screens. While rare, this should not be considered a defect. If you think that a minor dissatisfaction, such as a dead pixel will prompt you to file a PayPal dispute, DO NOT purchase the PinePhone.
All webshops I've ever ordered monitors from basically had the same rules, except they're usually slightly more hidden.
I have 7 pinephones here and not a single dead pixel, only defect I've ever had was dust in a display on a pinetab prototype.
I have 7 pinephones here and not a single dead pixel, only defect I've ever had was dust in a display on a pinetab prototype.
Query, since you appear to be heavily involved:
I am looking to buy a used/cheap phone to replace our home wifi hotspot(a very tired Moto G4 + LineageOS, always plugged to power). No calls or texts required, just handling up to 5 device connections to the inet(music streaming, video downloads, web browsing). Having a new linux toy to tinker with would be a bonus, would love to support Pine64, but the inet reliability would need to be there as it is our only connection... extreme rural locale, no landline or line-of-site options available, Starlink is not yet an option, AFAIK, and def outside the budget.
In your opinion, would a PinePhone be a realistic candidate for our hotspot at this time?
In your opinion, would a PinePhone be a realistic candidate for our hotspot at this time?
Note that the Pinephone only supports 2.4GHz, not 5GHz.
A PinePhone would work fine for that I think. It's also possible to use any MSM8916 phone together with postmarketOS to do that kind of thing, the G4 is not supported on mainline in postmarketOS yet sadly, only the G4 Play.
I would recommend to use usb tethering though instead of wifi tethering. Just get a router that has an USB port that supports a modem and use that with a phone.
I would recommend to use usb tethering though instead of wifi tethering. Just get a router that has an USB port that supports a modem and use that with a phone.
In the early days of LCD screens different vendors and even resellers had different warranty and return policies for dead pixels, even going as far as cluster vs spread out. E.G. in circa 2007 Dell had a 5 dead pixels policy but if 3 were in a cluster you could replace the monitor too.
The reason why Apple or Samsung can have a 0 dead pixel policy is because they have money to buy higher quality screens in the first place and eat the cost of replacing phones / screens because they have a lot of money and a mature supply and sales chain.
PinePhone doesn’t it would potentially cost them as much to replace a phone post sale as the hardware in the phone is worth so they are making it clear to people that they shouldn’t expect a perfect device.
Would this actually pass consumer protection laws probably not.
The reason why Apple or Samsung can have a 0 dead pixel policy is because they have money to buy higher quality screens in the first place and eat the cost of replacing phones / screens because they have a lot of money and a mature supply and sales chain.
PinePhone doesn’t it would potentially cost them as much to replace a phone post sale as the hardware in the phone is worth so they are making it clear to people that they shouldn’t expect a perfect device.
Would this actually pass consumer protection laws probably not.
I got 1 dead pixel on fairly recent XPS 13. Appeared shortly after warranty lapsed.
Displays are frequently binned based on quality. They are probably just buying the cheapest they can, and end up with a lot of prematurely dead pixels.
I bought a monitor a few years ago and out of the box it had a dead pixel in a pretty annoying spot. I looked up the manufacturer's replacement policy and they wouldn't take it back for just a single pixel.
I own a PinePhone. Great device to tinker with. For me I'd consider it more of a tinker-toy than something with realistic expectations of being your main phone.
Smartphones are often used as a brain for many robotics applications. They tend to be well equipped, physically rebosu, include battery and reasonably fast CPUs. All that for a fraction of the price of the proper robotics equipment (RPi/Jetson, IMU, display, camera, battery, …).
This seems like a great compromise between closedness of iOS/android and robustness of the phone based solution.
This seems like a great compromise between closedness of iOS/android and robustness of the phone based solution.
Main Camera: Single OV6540, 5MP, 1/4″, LED Flash
The official specs here https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PinePhone_component_list#P.10_C... also say '6540, but no such model actually exists and the linked datasheet shows that it is actually an OV5640. Nonetheless, 5MP seems a bit low unless they got a really good deal on them, as I have an old Android from almost a decade ago(!) with an 8MP OV8825.
The official specs here https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PinePhone_component_list#P.10_C... also say '6540, but no such model actually exists and the linked datasheet shows that it is actually an OV5640. Nonetheless, 5MP seems a bit low unless they got a really good deal on them, as I have an old Android from almost a decade ago(!) with an 8MP OV8825.
It barely matters. The camera hardware and software lag like crazy and lack the postprocessing people are used to now -- the photos are terrible with a decent 5MP sensor and would probably be worse with the same weak CPU but more bits to shuffle...
In my experience that's likely because of software --- there's tons of ultra-cheap cameras with Omnivision sensors in them, and they just use the default settings and reference code which suffice to give not much more than a recognisable image. But they can be run in RAW mode to produce far better quality.
If you have the bandwidth to contribute I'm sure the people working on the camera app (https://git.sr.ht/~martijnbraam/megapixels) would love any assistance you could give them on postprocessing the RAWs.
From my limited experience with it, there's a huge amount of focus lag on the sensor itself, massive shutter lag, and then several seconds of postprocessing lag. I'm sure the last two can be improved in software, although the phone's CPU is so slow I wouldn't expect anything remotely in the realm of Google's GCam computational photography magic.
From my limited experience with it, there's a huge amount of focus lag on the sensor itself, massive shutter lag, and then several seconds of postprocessing lag. I'm sure the last two can be improved in software, although the phone's CPU is so slow I wouldn't expect anything remotely in the realm of Google's GCam computational photography magic.
The latest version of megapixels has pretty much realtime preview now. The postprocessing still takes 30 seconds though which is why it's done in the background (just like android phones)
The focus speed just won't be great, it's old-school contrast detection autofocus.
The focus speed just won't be great, it's old-school contrast detection autofocus.
Any chance for built-in live image stacking to get rid of the noise in still images?
maybe if someone writes a decent implementation
imagemagick?
the difficult part is exactly aligning the images to make them stack nicely
> 5MP seems a bit low
Librem 5 has a better camera, but it's much more expensive.
Librem 5 has a better camera, but it's much more expensive.
I'd would not like to run "other operating systems", but rather Android/Replicant[1]. The PinePhone is listed as a supported device[2], but I'm finding next to no reports on how it is actually working.
[1] https://replicant.us/
[2] https://replicant.us/supported-devices.php
[1] https://replicant.us/
[2] https://replicant.us/supported-devices.php
I am not aware of any Replicant build for the PinePhone, otherwise I would have had to try it out and make a video about it [0]. GloDroid [1] has incomplete support for the PinePhone (no support for anything the EG25-G does), that‘s all in terms of Android aside from Anbox or WayDroid that run on top of Linux.
[0] https://linmob.net/videos
[1] https://github.com/GloDroid/glodroid_manifest/releases
[0] https://linmob.net/videos
[1] https://github.com/GloDroid/glodroid_manifest/releases
Oh, I'm pretty darn sure I saw it on the supported devices page yesterday. Can't see it now. Hallucinations? :) It's very strange to me that no Android ROM has made it to the PinePhone yet.
Once one (most likely GloDroid) will be closer to “this is now a working Android phone” I expect others to follow.
Hope so!
Found the page I was thinking of: https://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/wiki/Pinepho...
Very much "not supported".
Found the page I was thinking of: https://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/wiki/Pinepho...
Very much "not supported".
>"Full specifications
[...]
Bootable Micro SD
[...]"
Also, from further above on the page:
"the PinePhone runs mainline Linux as well as anything else you’ll get it to run."
[...]
Bootable Micro SD
[...]"
Also, from further above on the page:
"the PinePhone runs mainline Linux as well as anything else you’ll get it to run."
as well as anything else you’ll get it to run
...how about Windows 10 ARM? Wouldn't be very practical, but would definitely be an interesting challenge.
...how about Windows 10 ARM? Wouldn't be very practical, but would definitely be an interesting challenge.
Add OpenGL ES 3 GPU and I'm sold.
the librem is a bit too clunky and expensive, probability of pine adding a newer GPU is higher!
Newer GPU = different SoC -> solving many solved problems once again.
Likely candidate SoC for a "PinePhone 2" is the RockChip RK3566, but I would not expect that before 2023 (if not later).
Likely candidate SoC for a "PinePhone 2" is the RockChip RK3566, but I would not expect that before 2023 (if not later).
Probability is higher than what? Librem 5 is already there, whereas next Pinephone is not really on the horizon.
slimmer cheaper librem.
> Librem 5 is already there
Again. Just because it 'is already there' is just not good enough. That alone still doesn't tell us how well it runs. For example, the Librem 5 itself is just as sluggish when running general apps and also running Android apps in Andbox. [0]
Leads me to think that neither the Pinephone or the Librem 5 are ready for production use or recommendation to the Android user who wants to know if it runs the same apps on it, or even runs better than their Android phone to justify the switch.
To Downvoters: So in [0], you are saying that this product runs apps better than a Google Pixel or an iPhone 7? Are you really prepared to recommend Android or iOS users to switch to this even if it the experience is in fact worse than their previous phones?
I get that the main selling points has been about privacy (In light of the NSO hacks) but many users won't want to be beta tester of a product that feels unfinished and sluggish. The smart thing to do is to wait for them to improve it over time before coming out as a serious alternative.
[0] https://puri.sm/posts/anbox-on-the-librem-5/
Again. Just because it 'is already there' is just not good enough. That alone still doesn't tell us how well it runs. For example, the Librem 5 itself is just as sluggish when running general apps and also running Android apps in Andbox. [0]
Leads me to think that neither the Pinephone or the Librem 5 are ready for production use or recommendation to the Android user who wants to know if it runs the same apps on it, or even runs better than their Android phone to justify the switch.
To Downvoters: So in [0], you are saying that this product runs apps better than a Google Pixel or an iPhone 7? Are you really prepared to recommend Android or iOS users to switch to this even if it the experience is in fact worse than their previous phones?
I get that the main selling points has been about privacy (In light of the NSO hacks) but many users won't want to be beta tester of a product that feels unfinished and sluggish. The smart thing to do is to wait for them to improve it over time before coming out as a serious alternative.
[0] https://puri.sm/posts/anbox-on-the-librem-5/
Nothing like enjoying the power of 2012 GPU hardware in 2021.
I wonder how hard is gonna be to remove the complete GUI including display manager from that Linux, and replace with something else?
Unfortunately, they don’t seem to have GLES 3.1 GPU. Still, I might be able to back port to GLES2, the GPU side is not terribly complicated: https://github.com/Const-me/Vrmac/
Unfortunately, they don’t seem to have GLES 3.1 GPU. Still, I might be able to back port to GLES2, the GPU side is not terribly complicated: https://github.com/Const-me/Vrmac/
I keep hearing that this phone is not good for texting or calling. Can someone describe why? Is call quality poor? Are calls missed? etc.
Most issues I hear about are missed calls during phone sleep, due to wake being too slow.
This has been recently improved in most distributions: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mobile-broadband/ModemManager...
This has been recently improved in most distributions: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mobile-broadband/ModemManager...
Looking at how the Western and Eastern economies are making blocks supporting USA or China. It is my prediction that in the coming coldwar/economic war ironically it will be China from where we will be getting free/opensource hardware rather than the west where corporate IP and patent monopolies control everything.
Yeah, it runs many distros, but almost none of them is polished. Let's hope it changes soon.
Do these alternative Smartphones are able to seamlessly run native Android/iOS apps in containers? It'd be great if they could "embrace" such walled gardens, and possibly "extend" some of their functionality :-)
There is Anbox for that.
Great, but it seems to be quite 'experimental' (and buggy) rather than production ready for people wishing to switch from Android to the Pinephone.
Just saying it is 'There' doesn't really tell us how well it actually runs on it. To quote the grandparent comment mentioning the word 'seamlessly' as the requirement.
Just saying it is 'There' doesn't really tell us how well it actually runs on it. To quote the grandparent comment mentioning the word 'seamlessly' as the requirement.
https://puri.sm/posts/anbox-on-the-librem-5/
(It's not the Pinephone, but another GNU/Linux phone. Should be similar apart from the performance)
(It's not the Pinephone, but another GNU/Linux phone. Should be similar apart from the performance)
As I already said [0], it is just as sluggish as the PinePhone.
The grandparent comment asked if it could 'seamlessly' run Android apps (Obviously not iOS) and clearly in that video, it is not the case and it is already struggling with running simple Android apps.
I'm afraid Android users hoping to jump on either of these phones right now will be disappointed.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27948695
The grandparent comment asked if it could 'seamlessly' run Android apps (Obviously not iOS) and clearly in that video, it is not the case and it is already struggling with running simple Android apps.
I'm afraid Android users hoping to jump on either of these phones right now will be disappointed.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27948695
PinePhone is too big for me. I cannot use any smartphone with over 72mm weight. It is difficult to use by one hand and have it in pocket. Im curious when reasonable sizes (like old iPhone SE) come back to market.
Well the PinePhone is this size because it's impossible to fit the parts in it otherwise.
What is the barrier to make such phone but with e.g. Snapdragon 888?
Minimum order quantity and software support
Proprietary drivers with closed specs.
Qualcomm is a shitty company with terrible mainlining efforts and documentation.
How much effort would it take to run LineageOS on it? Looks like it could be the fastest way to get it usable for everyday tasks.
this seems cool if distros become more polished from what i have seen this could be amazing
Honestly I'm not looking for an amazing phone, just a less shitty one. I'll probably buy a PinePhone to tinker with it and support the idea, but I don't expect it to be really usable. I hope in the coming years they'll get a usable/stable version. Of course I don't expect a great camera/software or anything like that.
Ok, if we're gonna go there—here are the past threads with meaningful comments. Others?
Ask HN: 2021 PinePhone Review? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27665011 - June 2021 (4 comments)
Ask HN: Smartphone As Exclusive Word-Processor Device? (& Pinephone) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27654403 - June 2021 (8 comments)
Librem 5 Evergreen vs. PinePhone (Part 2) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27605712 - June 2021 (96 comments)
Upgrading a PinePhone Braveheart edition to 3GB - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27567009 - June 2021 (2 comments)
The PinePhone could bring the Linux mobile ecosystem to life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27494006 - June 2021 (219 comments)
Pinephone Keyboard Update - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26929153 - April 2021 (20 comments)
PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26566373 - March 2021 (300 comments)
PinePhone Beta - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26518162 - March 2021 (71 comments)
Fedora on the PinePhone: Pipewire Calling - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26080207 - Feb 2021 (90 comments)
Can the PinePhone replace your Android or iOS device? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25995418 - Feb 2021 (3 comments)
Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25338633 - Dec 2020 (121 comments)
PinePhone KDE Community Edition is now available - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25264515 - Dec 2020 (196 comments)
PinePhone multi-distro demo image - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25221666 - Nov 2020 (1 comment)
Pine64 November Update: KDE PinePhone CE and a Peek into the Future - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25133428 - Nov 2020 (132 comments)
PinePhone – KDE Community edition - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25100694 - Nov 2020 (152 comments)
Let's talk about safety of Pinephone - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24596248 - Sept 2020 (76 comments)
Review of Pinephone PostmarketOS CE - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24525210 - Sept 2020 (1 comment)
Putting 13 PinePhone distributions on a 8GiB USD card - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24474150 - Sept 2020 (2 comments)
PinePhone – Multi-Boot of 9 distros on a single SD card - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24405946 - Sept 2020 (3 comments)
PinePhone Manjaro Community Edition - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24329900 - Aug 2020 (166 comments)
How to update U-Boot for PostmarketOS on the Pine Phone - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24244407 - Aug 2020 (8 comments)
Linux PinePhone has physical kill switches for its cameras, mic, data, BT, Wi-Fi - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24184091 - Aug 2020 (146 comments)
The Linux-based PinePhone is the most interesting smartphone I've tried in years - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24168226 - Aug 2020 (2 comments)
$200 PinePhone Linux smartphone comes with physical kill switch - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24167497 - Aug 2020 (13 comments)
Wayland and LVGL on PinePhone with Ubuntu Touch - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23947176 - July 2020 (47 comments)
Pine64 announce the Pinecil, TS100 compatible RISC-V soldering iron - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23890848 - July 2020 (76 comments)
Pinephone – “Community Edition: PostmarketOS” Linux smartphone - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23849202 - July 2020 (209 comments)
PostmarketOS // PinePhone CE available for pre-order - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23846588 - July 2020 (1 comment)
PinePhone: PostmarketOS Community Edition - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23528571 - June 2020 (76 comments)
Sxmo: Simple X Mobile – A Pinephone UI that is simple and suckless - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23261839 - May 2020 (29 comments)
May Update: PineTab Pre-Orders, PinePhone Qi Charging and More - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23193563 - May 2020 (51 comments)
Pinephone first steps - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23130247 - May 2020 (89 comments)
Pinephone – Community Edition: UBports - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22844223 - April 2020 (36 comments)
KDE’s Plasma Mobile Is Shaping Up Nicely on the PinePhone - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22377386 - Feb 2020 (4 comments)
PinePhone – Unboxing and First Impressions - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22359086 - Feb 2020 (4 comments)
Pine64 February update: PinePhone, PineTab, Pinebook, new products and delays - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22338593 - Feb 2020 (1 comment)
PinePhone Misconceptions - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22145826 - Jan 2020 (88 comments)
Linux Smartphone – Yet Another Librem 5 and PinePhone Comparison - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21850285 - Dec 2019 (1 comment)
PinePhone review - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21830391 - Dec 2019 (1 comment)
PinePhone Review - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21824962 - Dec 2019 (259 comments)
Manjaro ARM Alpha1 for PinePhone - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21727334 - Dec 2019 (7 comments)
Pinephone – “BraveHeart” Limited Edition Linux SmartPhone - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21544059 - Nov 2019 (69 comments)
Pine64 November Update – ANSI Pinebook Pro and PinePhone Preorder - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21452740 - Nov 2019 (86 comments)
PineTime Is a $25 Smartwatch / Companion for PinePhone Linux Phone - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20977788 - Sept 2019 (124 comments)
PinePhone $149 Linux Smartphone Could Support Ubuntu, Sailfish, Maemo, LuneOS - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20130577 - June 2019 (4 comments)
Software on Librem 5 and PinePhone Linux Phones Is Progressing Nicely - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20120331 - June 2019 (14 comments)
PinePhone Linux smartphone to sell for $149, dev kits coming soon - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19052931 - Feb 2019 (10 comments)
Ask HN: 2021 PinePhone Review? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27665011 - June 2021 (4 comments)
Ask HN: Smartphone As Exclusive Word-Processor Device? (& Pinephone) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27654403 - June 2021 (8 comments)
Librem 5 Evergreen vs. PinePhone (Part 2) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27605712 - June 2021 (96 comments)
Upgrading a PinePhone Braveheart edition to 3GB - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27567009 - June 2021 (2 comments)
The PinePhone could bring the Linux mobile ecosystem to life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27494006 - June 2021 (219 comments)
Pinephone Keyboard Update - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26929153 - April 2021 (20 comments)
PinePhone – Beta Edition Linux SmartPhone Preorder - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26566373 - March 2021 (300 comments)
PinePhone Beta - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26518162 - March 2021 (71 comments)
Fedora on the PinePhone: Pipewire Calling - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26080207 - Feb 2021 (90 comments)
Can the PinePhone replace your Android or iOS device? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25995418 - Feb 2021 (3 comments)
Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25338633 - Dec 2020 (121 comments)
PinePhone KDE Community Edition is now available - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25264515 - Dec 2020 (196 comments)
PinePhone multi-distro demo image - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25221666 - Nov 2020 (1 comment)
Pine64 November Update: KDE PinePhone CE and a Peek into the Future - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25133428 - Nov 2020 (132 comments)
PinePhone – KDE Community edition - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25100694 - Nov 2020 (152 comments)
Let's talk about safety of Pinephone - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24596248 - Sept 2020 (76 comments)
Review of Pinephone PostmarketOS CE - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24525210 - Sept 2020 (1 comment)
Putting 13 PinePhone distributions on a 8GiB USD card - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24474150 - Sept 2020 (2 comments)
PinePhone – Multi-Boot of 9 distros on a single SD card - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24405946 - Sept 2020 (3 comments)
PinePhone Manjaro Community Edition - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24329900 - Aug 2020 (166 comments)
How to update U-Boot for PostmarketOS on the Pine Phone - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24244407 - Aug 2020 (8 comments)
Linux PinePhone has physical kill switches for its cameras, mic, data, BT, Wi-Fi - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24184091 - Aug 2020 (146 comments)
The Linux-based PinePhone is the most interesting smartphone I've tried in years - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24168226 - Aug 2020 (2 comments)
$200 PinePhone Linux smartphone comes with physical kill switch - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24167497 - Aug 2020 (13 comments)
Wayland and LVGL on PinePhone with Ubuntu Touch - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23947176 - July 2020 (47 comments)
Pine64 announce the Pinecil, TS100 compatible RISC-V soldering iron - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23890848 - July 2020 (76 comments)
Pinephone – “Community Edition: PostmarketOS” Linux smartphone - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23849202 - July 2020 (209 comments)
PostmarketOS // PinePhone CE available for pre-order - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23846588 - July 2020 (1 comment)
PinePhone: PostmarketOS Community Edition - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23528571 - June 2020 (76 comments)
Sxmo: Simple X Mobile – A Pinephone UI that is simple and suckless - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23261839 - May 2020 (29 comments)
May Update: PineTab Pre-Orders, PinePhone Qi Charging and More - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23193563 - May 2020 (51 comments)
Pinephone first steps - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23130247 - May 2020 (89 comments)
Pinephone – Community Edition: UBports - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22844223 - April 2020 (36 comments)
KDE’s Plasma Mobile Is Shaping Up Nicely on the PinePhone - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22377386 - Feb 2020 (4 comments)
PinePhone – Unboxing and First Impressions - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22359086 - Feb 2020 (4 comments)
Pine64 February update: PinePhone, PineTab, Pinebook, new products and delays - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22338593 - Feb 2020 (1 comment)
PinePhone Misconceptions - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22145826 - Jan 2020 (88 comments)
Linux Smartphone – Yet Another Librem 5 and PinePhone Comparison - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21850285 - Dec 2019 (1 comment)
PinePhone review - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21830391 - Dec 2019 (1 comment)
PinePhone Review - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21824962 - Dec 2019 (259 comments)
Manjaro ARM Alpha1 for PinePhone - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21727334 - Dec 2019 (7 comments)
Pinephone – “BraveHeart” Limited Edition Linux SmartPhone - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21544059 - Nov 2019 (69 comments)
Pine64 November Update – ANSI Pinebook Pro and PinePhone Preorder - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21452740 - Nov 2019 (86 comments)
PineTime Is a $25 Smartwatch / Companion for PinePhone Linux Phone - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20977788 - Sept 2019 (124 comments)
PinePhone $149 Linux Smartphone Could Support Ubuntu, Sailfish, Maemo, LuneOS - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20130577 - June 2019 (4 comments)
Software on Librem 5 and PinePhone Linux Phones Is Progressing Nicely - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20120331 - June 2019 (14 comments)
PinePhone Linux smartphone to sell for $149, dev kits coming soon - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19052931 - Feb 2019 (10 comments)
Best of luck
I wouldn't buy this, simply based on experience of their other products. I bought one of their laptops. It was terribly slow to the point of unusability for the three days it was working before a child knocked the power plug and ripped the socket assembly off the mainboard, rendering the machine unsalvageable. The whole thing felt poorly built.
Contrast the ZX Spectrum Next, built by enthusiasts as a Kickstarter, which is rock solid and has stood up to children for years now.
Contrast the ZX Spectrum Next, built by enthusiasts as a Kickstarter, which is rock solid and has stood up to children for years now.
> ZX Spectrum Next
And that's not slow?
And that's not slow?
It's snappier than the Pinebook, even if the clock speed is from the 1980s. But the comparison was more about the build quality.
That said, fair warning to anyone thinking about getting one: it's slow, buggy, and flat out unreliable if you need to be able to receive / answer calls and texts for anything important (e.g. work).
Once they get the software worked out over the next few years though, it'll be the best thing out there. No ads, no bullshit, just a phone with a mainline linux distribution.