Ask HN: What is fair payment? How should employees be compensated?
13 comments
> Is there a better term to describe this kind of situation other than "literal, actual slavery"?
Slaves aren't paid anything, they're not free to look for employment elsewhere, and they tend to be physically abused if they displease their employers. So your job is not even remotely similar to "literal, actual slavery".
Slaves aren't paid anything, they're not free to look for employment elsewhere, and they tend to be physically abused if they displease their employers. So your job is not even remotely similar to "literal, actual slavery".
That's the nature of a full time job. As it is, it's the best option for me. There's a lot of companies that make $10k/month but pay $30k/month in salaries. Thanks, VCs. But if there were a lower barrier to finding early stage VCs, starting a startup might be a better option.
But consider that you might be one of the few taking 1000 Imaginary coins after tax. Most people bring home 10 Imaginary Coins a month, or even negative. 1000 Imaginary Coins is the total compensation for most forms of labor.
A fair payment is when everyone in an organization can make ends meet with only one household job. Both of the people in a couple should also not need to work - if two people are too poor to have two kids, is it really a developed nation? Things were better in the past.
And when they can fully focus on their work. They shouldn't be engaging in side gigs. If you're a janitor, your goal should just be cleaning better and you should be satisfied financially and career-wise by cleaning up. A janitor shouldn't have to drive Uber at night to make ends meet. Japan seems to do this well - people find satisfaction and mastery in small things like cleaning fish and working at factories.
Though the other question to ask is are we profiting off this "slavery"? The $1 meals. The clean floors. How many have sacrificed their dreams for us to have high fructose corn syrup?
But consider that you might be one of the few taking 1000 Imaginary coins after tax. Most people bring home 10 Imaginary Coins a month, or even negative. 1000 Imaginary Coins is the total compensation for most forms of labor.
A fair payment is when everyone in an organization can make ends meet with only one household job. Both of the people in a couple should also not need to work - if two people are too poor to have two kids, is it really a developed nation? Things were better in the past.
And when they can fully focus on their work. They shouldn't be engaging in side gigs. If you're a janitor, your goal should just be cleaning better and you should be satisfied financially and career-wise by cleaning up. A janitor shouldn't have to drive Uber at night to make ends meet. Japan seems to do this well - people find satisfaction and mastery in small things like cleaning fish and working at factories.
Though the other question to ask is are we profiting off this "slavery"? The $1 meals. The clean floors. How many have sacrificed their dreams for us to have high fructose corn syrup?
If you don’t like your situation, you should change it. If you don’t enjoy full-time programming, figure out why and change it or do something else.
I was in your situation once. I started remote contracting, then moved to a developing country where I could live on very little of my country’s currency, then started working less.
Instead of feeling stuck, start exploring all the different ways you could live. Here’s some examples to get you thinking:
- Get a remote job and travel and live in cheaper places.
- Figure out how to earn more money with programming. You’ll still be in the M-F grind but you’ll have more money.
- Downsize and live with roommates or parents, so you’ll save more money.
- Join a Buddhist monastery and live with no bills or job at all.
- Work part-time. Make less and live with roommates, but have more free time.
- Consider other ways to earn money besides programming. Become a personal trainer, do landscaping, work at a cafe, teach language classes, become a chef, write ebooks, there’s so many ways to earn a living.
I was in your situation once. I started remote contracting, then moved to a developing country where I could live on very little of my country’s currency, then started working less.
Instead of feeling stuck, start exploring all the different ways you could live. Here’s some examples to get you thinking:
- Get a remote job and travel and live in cheaper places.
- Figure out how to earn more money with programming. You’ll still be in the M-F grind but you’ll have more money.
- Downsize and live with roommates or parents, so you’ll save more money.
- Join a Buddhist monastery and live with no bills or job at all.
- Work part-time. Make less and live with roommates, but have more free time.
- Consider other ways to earn money besides programming. Become a personal trainer, do landscaping, work at a cafe, teach language classes, become a chef, write ebooks, there’s so many ways to earn a living.
You're employed, you never work more than 8 hours a day and you can save 15% of your income. You're doing great.
If you want to turn this into a complain-fest or if you're completely anti-work - go ahead. But the slavery comparisons aren't appropriate at all.
Also, don't worry about what's fair - there's a market and you have a position somewhere in it as an employee. That's all. If all software development got automated tomorrow, the value of your software development skills on that market would be zero.
If you want to turn this into a complain-fest or if you're completely anti-work - go ahead. But the slavery comparisons aren't appropriate at all.
Also, don't worry about what's fair - there's a market and you have a position somewhere in it as an employee. That's all. If all software development got automated tomorrow, the value of your software development skills on that market would be zero.
One interesting answer is that the whole concept of an employment contract is inherently immoral, so an employee can never be fairly compensated.
https://www.abolishhumanrentals.org/
I don't manage 8-8-8 even on a lucky day, and I absolutely don't like it. But calling it "literal, actual slavery" is incredibly privileged, insular, and unfair.
From one of your replies, I assume you live in São Paulo, I'm from there.
I've debated with the same question in 2016, not about slavery, but about what life I was living there and what I wanted for my future and for my family.
So will share my story and opinion, YMMV. I decided to take a leap and try to get a job overseas, mainly EU, (software engineer, 10 years of exp) , was the best decision I've made.
São Paulo/Brazil have many issues that won't be solved in the foreseable future or never in my opinion:
- education quality / cost ratio - housing - personal safety - inflation and money value - population
I'm currently living in Lisbon and if home sickness is not an issue for you, I would recommend checking out opportunities abroad.
You will face problems also, housing for example is awful almost everywhere, but I can pay a mortgage with much less interest than in BR, have a car and not worry being robbed with a gun, walk the dog 2AM without looking over my shoulder and provide a better future for my kids, all that with enough work life balance and a normal salary in tech field.
> Is there a better term to describe this kind of situation other than "literal, actual slavery"?
It's business, you are selling your time for a price and paying a "premium" for where you are able to live.
> What is a fair payment, in your opinion?
Fair is hard to define in my opinion and will vary by too many factors, your perception, the employer perception, your colleagues perception, actual value contribution and so on.
--
Hope you find what you want to change about your situation!
I've debated with the same question in 2016, not about slavery, but about what life I was living there and what I wanted for my future and for my family.
So will share my story and opinion, YMMV. I decided to take a leap and try to get a job overseas, mainly EU, (software engineer, 10 years of exp) , was the best decision I've made.
São Paulo/Brazil have many issues that won't be solved in the foreseable future or never in my opinion:
- education quality / cost ratio - housing - personal safety - inflation and money value - population
I'm currently living in Lisbon and if home sickness is not an issue for you, I would recommend checking out opportunities abroad.
You will face problems also, housing for example is awful almost everywhere, but I can pay a mortgage with much less interest than in BR, have a car and not worry being robbed with a gun, walk the dog 2AM without looking over my shoulder and provide a better future for my kids, all that with enough work life balance and a normal salary in tech field.
> Is there a better term to describe this kind of situation other than "literal, actual slavery"?
It's business, you are selling your time for a price and paying a "premium" for where you are able to live.
> What is a fair payment, in your opinion?
Fair is hard to define in my opinion and will vary by too many factors, your perception, the employer perception, your colleagues perception, actual value contribution and so on.
--
Hope you find what you want to change about your situation!
Hard to say without more details (currency and or location). What I would do is check with acquaintances (former colleagues, friends from uni, etc) what they are paid, assuming they have similar professional experiences.
But it also sounds like you live in some overpriced hellhole, assuming you're paid at least a half way fair wage.
Do you really need to live where you do? Check living costs of less central locations.
Well, I live in Brazil, so yeah, it's an overpriced hellhole(just as food for thought: someone making minimum wage here, saving 100% of his paycheck, would take 4-5 months to pay for a PS5).
I'll be moving out from here soon, the only reason I'm still here is because supposedly there will be in-office days after covid is over(so, therefore, I am paid a salary that "corresponds" to the city I live in).
I'll be moving out from here soon, the only reason I'm still here is because supposedly there will be in-office days after covid is over(so, therefore, I am paid a salary that "corresponds" to the city I live in).
Not trying to evade your question, but my first thought was that "fair payment" can be indirectly deduced by what others are willing to pay and work for. (Although as an aside, it seems like as a senior software engineer with 9 years of professional experience, you might be able to leverage your current experience for an even higher salary at another company.)
The other trick I've used at various points in my career is to change cities. (Not trying to be flip, but if you can't negotiate a higher salary, you could try negotiating a full-time remote position, and then find a location with lower rent.) The other thing to negotiate for: shorter hours. (A handful of companies offer less-than-40-hour workweeks, or generous vacation packages.) And the last option is just becoming a contractor, so you have some control over how many hours you work -- but/and also how many hours you'll be paid for.
The other trick I've used at various points in my career is to change cities. (Not trying to be flip, but if you can't negotiate a higher salary, you could try negotiating a full-time remote position, and then find a location with lower rent.) The other thing to negotiate for: shorter hours. (A handful of companies offer less-than-40-hour workweeks, or generous vacation packages.) And the last option is just becoming a contractor, so you have some control over how many hours you work -- but/and also how many hours you'll be paid for.
"This means I essentially work to live and live to work. Is this how things are supposed to be?"
Historically, this has always been the case for the vast majority of the people. From hunter/gatherers and early agricultural to early industrial factories and agricultural, retirement was never a real option. It's only been a recent trend (similar to travel, mass information/education, etc).
Historically, this has always been the case for the vast majority of the people. From hunter/gatherers and early agricultural to early industrial factories and agricultural, retirement was never a real option. It's only been a recent trend (similar to travel, mass information/education, etc).
> So my day is divided in 3. 8 hours I sleep, 8 hours I work. The last 8 hours I do all the stuff that enables me to sleep/work on the other 16 hours(eg: run errands, do groceries, meal plan, cook, clean house, take care of dog, etc). This means I essentially work to live and live to work. Is this how things are supposed to be?
When you figure out let me know. Though I’m not sure any amount of money makes up for the time sink.
When you figure out let me know. Though I’m not sure any amount of money makes up for the time sink.
Yes it's modern day slavery. What's stopping you from taking some time and allocating it to building something for yourself?
So my day is divided in 3. 8 hours I sleep, 8 hours I work. The last 8 hours I do all the stuff that enables me to sleep/work on the other 16 hours(eg: run errands, do groceries, meal plan, cook, clean house, take care of dog, etc). This means I essentially work to live and live to work. Is this how things are supposed to be? Is there a better term to describe this kind of situation other than "literal, actual slavery"? What is a fair payment, in your opinion? How does thing work in your own country?
FYI: I'm 26, I'm a senior software engineer with 9 years of professional experience, contributing to a pretty large multinational company.