TikTok overtakes YouTube for average watch time in US and UK(bbc.co.uk)
bbc.co.uk
TikTok overtakes YouTube for average watch time in US and UK
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58464745
404 comments
The article also says "Data from app monitoring firm App Annie indicates that average time per user spent on the apps is higher for TikTok, indicating high levels of engagement."
Now, I don't know for sure, but I cant imagine that YouTube is integrating App Annie metrics into their YouTube App, right?
It's not like Google dont have their own metrics platform...
And is TikTok really using App Annie?
So where are they getting the data from?
Are they including media streaming devices like ATV, Chromecast, Roku, and so on?
Overall it's a misleading report that misrepresents the attention graph of platform consumption!
Now, I don't know for sure, but I cant imagine that YouTube is integrating App Annie metrics into their YouTube App, right?
It's not like Google dont have their own metrics platform...
And is TikTok really using App Annie?
So where are they getting the data from?
Are they including media streaming devices like ATV, Chromecast, Roku, and so on?
Overall it's a misleading report that misrepresents the attention graph of platform consumption!
> Now, I don't know for sure, but I cant imagine that YouTube is integrating App Annie metrics into their YouTube App, right?
It's based on Android battery stats. You can download 3rd party battery stats from Google Play and view other app's usage time.
It's based on Android battery stats. You can download 3rd party battery stats from Google Play and view other app's usage time.
Novel but this, and any other metric that App Annie is using, is only a crude approximation.
An inefficient video codec would result in higher battery usage.
An inefficient video codec would result in higher battery usage.
any source for AppAnnie employing this method? Also user has to explicitly give apps permissions to monitor, it's not that simple.
You can find out which app is currently opened in Android. Do this repeatedly and you get an impression for how long which app gets used. All App Annie needs to do is pay popular app vendors to ship their data collection SDK. They might not get perfect data like Google does, but large enough samples to make statements like this.
They use VPN, Ad blocker and every other apps which people indiscriminately give permissions to, They buyout such apps with significant number of users from the play/App stores and extrapolate the data collected through those apps.
I wouldn't be surprised if publishers directly pay App Annie under the table to boost their stats.
As far as YouTube screen-time is concerned Web, Game Consoles, Media centers & smart TVs would account significant screen-time and it's unlikely App Annie's data hoarding apps are installed in them(Unless say shoddy media center bought from Ali express).
That said, TikTok might well indeed take over YouTube sometime in the future as they are doing what YouTube did in the beginning - Home videos sans shitty cameras, Now YouTube is all about top 1% creators with Michael Bay movie budget for each video.
P.S. Not an endorsement for TikTok, Never used it, Will never use it for their moderation practice against the disabled.
I wouldn't be surprised if publishers directly pay App Annie under the table to boost their stats.
As far as YouTube screen-time is concerned Web, Game Consoles, Media centers & smart TVs would account significant screen-time and it's unlikely App Annie's data hoarding apps are installed in them(Unless say shoddy media center bought from Ali express).
That said, TikTok might well indeed take over YouTube sometime in the future as they are doing what YouTube did in the beginning - Home videos sans shitty cameras, Now YouTube is all about top 1% creators with Michael Bay movie budget for each video.
P.S. Not an endorsement for TikTok, Never used it, Will never use it for their moderation practice against the disabled.
What are their mod policies against disabled? I think I read they don’t promote them at all due to any social risk..?
That's what they would say, but they told moderators to suppress posts by "Ugly", "Poor", "Disabled" because it's not glamorous enough to attract new users.
[1] https://theintercept.com/2020/03/16/tiktok-app-moderators-us...
[1] https://theintercept.com/2020/03/16/tiktok-app-moderators-us...
I refuse to use the YouTube app. The ads have gotten so bad. The website I can use an ad blocker and it’s fine to watch. I try using the app iOS or TVOS and it’s 3 ads to start and an ad every 5 minutes.
I recommend buying YouTube Premium. I’ve been a happy customer for a couple years now. It’s better for the creators compared to blocking ads too and they get paid based on your watch time. https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/6306276
I do pay for YouTube premium. But the amount of ads in the video itself is just too much. Everybody has a sponsor to talk about multiple times in theirs video. And then there is the various interaction reminders. And YouTube stills shows me ads for movies and whatnot.
I am now combining YouTube Premium with uBlock Origin and SponsorBlok to get a decent experience.
I am now combining YouTube Premium with uBlock Origin and SponsorBlok to get a decent experience.
I also have YT Premium. Those in video promos are so easy to skip. Most creators put them in the same spot every video, some even at the end.
These are mostly regular people trying to earn a living making high quality content. I’m not seeing how you can begrudge them the few seconds of skippable ad copy.
These are mostly regular people trying to earn a living making high quality content. I’m not seeing how you can begrudge them the few seconds of skippable ad copy.
I think many people have forgotten just how many ads are shown on television, where commercials typically occupy around 25% of on-air time.
Everyone thought it was cool how episodes of The Walking Dead kept getting longer. But then someone ran the numbers and it turned out the episodes were still the standard ~40 minutes, and every single new minute past that was ads. And not just ads, but lots of super short ads, so they're even more annoying.
https://old.reddit.com/r/thewalkingdead/comments/86o9du/i_ti...
AMC does it in the spinoffs too.
https://old.reddit.com/r/thewalkingdead/comments/86o9du/i_ti...
AMC does it in the spinoffs too.
I did not forget. But ads were the reason I entirely stopped to consume TV.
The same happend with youtube. I cant stand it anymore.
The same happend with youtube. I cant stand it anymore.
There is an add-on called SponsorBlock that automatically skips the sponsor 'ads' in the video content itself.
Unfortunately this doesn't work for the app.
(Yes, I've heard of NewPipe - I want to use the official app.)
(Yes, I've heard of NewPipe - I want to use the official app.)
There is YouTube Vanced if you want and it already incorporates Sponsorblock
As a full-time YouTuber person, I wholeheartedly endorse this statement. I say that as someone who pays the bills from YouTube and as someone who pays for Premium every month.
It's been a while, but last I checked Premium views were worth more on a per-view basis than ad-watching views. We're talking tiny fractions of a cent, but they obviously add up. Moreover, so-called "demonetized" videos remain eligible for Premium revenue, despite the reality that they will earn little to nothing from ads.
It's been a while, but last I checked Premium views were worth more on a per-view basis than ad-watching views. We're talking tiny fractions of a cent, but they obviously add up. Moreover, so-called "demonetized" videos remain eligible for Premium revenue, despite the reality that they will earn little to nothing from ads.
I have YouTube premium and love it. I mostly watch it for music videos and technical talks, and love not having ads. Watch some kids shows too with the 5yo.
I nearly always use the web site, even though I have the app on my phone. Full screen browser tab on the desktop just feels more “TV-like” and engaging than staring at the phone screen.
I nearly always use the web site, even though I have the app on my phone. Full screen browser tab on the desktop just feels more “TV-like” and engaging than staring at the phone screen.
why not use ublock origin, rather than buy youtube premium? UO will remove every single ad in browser. It's obviously 100% fine to buy premium; I am just curious about the reasons, if any.
To remove ads on Mobile and Android TV
As someone who lives very comfortably on a software engineer’s salary at a big software company, I generally avoid trying to “work around” their business models. If I’m going to use the software/service, I’m happy to pay those engineer’s salaries too. (And if it makes the product unusable, then I don’t use it).
I like the simplicity of paying for it and knowing it’ll work everywhere without having to deal with work arounds. (I watch on at least 5 different platforms)
I don’t mind the price - I love the straightforward model.
I watch a ton of YouTube and want to support the business as well as creators (they get a cut of the subscription).
I don’t mind the price - I love the straightforward model.
I watch a ton of YouTube and want to support the business as well as creators (they get a cut of the subscription).
It’s a shame that you’re forced to buy Google’s music subscription in order to pay for removing Youtube ads.
Vanced is a fantastic YouTube alternative app for android - https://vancedapp.com/
After YouTube introduced the age verification for stuff like game demos it has not been the same.
It would be interesting to see what kind of content TikTok excels in if such a list exists.
It would be interesting to see what kind of content TikTok excels in if such a list exists.
The nice thing about tiktok is I haven't seen an ad I can't immediately skip. And since I don't follow influencer accounts I also don't see "product placement" or promotional videos.
Truly, I can't remember watching a single advertisement on tiktok because it's so easy to skip them. The moment they force ad watching ala youtube I'm out.
Truly, I can't remember watching a single advertisement on tiktok because it's so easy to skip them. The moment they force ad watching ala youtube I'm out.
Note particularly:
> However, YouTube retains the top spot for overall time spent - not per user - as it has many more users overall.
The HN title directly implies this, not the real start. It's misleading and needs to be changed.
> However, YouTube retains the top spot for overall time spent - not per user - as it has many more users overall.
The HN title directly implies this, not the real start. It's misleading and needs to be changed.
I imagine NewPipe users alone could account for a large chunk of time. I leave it on overnight frequently.
Yea, the Youtube algorithm is the "pick me girl" of algorithms.
I watched one video by a creator I already follow about their solar panel installation and water-catcher garden irrigation.
What do I get in my recommendations? Dozens and dozens of videos from completely random channels about solar panel installation and gardening.
I very rarely find new creators on YouTube, who produce consistent high quality content. I follow a handful of channels and even from them I lookat 20-40% of their videos.
TikTok on the other hand I swore I'd never use. Then came Covid19 and lockdowns. I reached the end of HN, Reddit and Youtube, so I installed it.
The Algorthm is fucking amazing. Dunno how they do it, but 80-90% of stuff it shows me I end up watching (it is 10secs to 3 mins so the investment isn't that huge =) ).
I've ended up following, among others, an opthalmologist who does sketches about hospital stuff, to mechanics who show the most f'd up cars they get to service, to farrier and sheep shearing videos to a guy who does comedy about weird animal facts.
I'd never actually go search anything like that on purpose, but I actually kinda found out I enjoy looking at. It's a good way to space out for 30 minutes and relax. Most TikTok videos get to the point before a stereotypical YouTuber has gone through their intro and sponsor segments :)
I watched one video by a creator I already follow about their solar panel installation and water-catcher garden irrigation.
What do I get in my recommendations? Dozens and dozens of videos from completely random channels about solar panel installation and gardening.
I very rarely find new creators on YouTube, who produce consistent high quality content. I follow a handful of channels and even from them I lookat 20-40% of their videos.
TikTok on the other hand I swore I'd never use. Then came Covid19 and lockdowns. I reached the end of HN, Reddit and Youtube, so I installed it.
The Algorthm is fucking amazing. Dunno how they do it, but 80-90% of stuff it shows me I end up watching (it is 10secs to 3 mins so the investment isn't that huge =) ).
I've ended up following, among others, an opthalmologist who does sketches about hospital stuff, to mechanics who show the most f'd up cars they get to service, to farrier and sheep shearing videos to a guy who does comedy about weird animal facts.
I'd never actually go search anything like that on purpose, but I actually kinda found out I enjoy looking at. It's a good way to space out for 30 minutes and relax. Most TikTok videos get to the point before a stereotypical YouTuber has gone through their intro and sponsor segments :)
> I've ended up following, among others, an opthalmologist who does sketches about hospital stuff, to mechanics who show the most f'd up cars they get to service, to farrier and sheep shearing videos to a guy who does comedy about weird animal facts.
I bet some of the uptick in quality of content on tiktok vs youtube is based on the length of videos. If they only have three minutes, all the interesting things will be shoehorned into the available time. Whereas youtube creators are incentivized by the payment structure to lengthen their content to increase their adshare pay so they extend their content to 10 minutes + leading to a lot of filler and "heyyyyy guys let me tell you about my day blah blah blah before we jump into the meat and potatoes" etc.
I bet some of the uptick in quality of content on tiktok vs youtube is based on the length of videos. If they only have three minutes, all the interesting things will be shoehorned into the available time. Whereas youtube creators are incentivized by the payment structure to lengthen their content to increase their adshare pay so they extend their content to 10 minutes + leading to a lot of filler and "heyyyyy guys let me tell you about my day blah blah blah before we jump into the meat and potatoes" etc.
It's exactly where the issue is. It's no mistake, product management at Google isn't dumb.. here is how it works.
YouTube, for years even post acquisition made no money, kept bleeding to aquire users. At one point a revenue stream is implemented, which must keep growing to recoup the large investments. Not to mention, pure greed.
The algorithm isn't designed to promote quality content to enhance the user experience and love for the product. It's designed to keep users engaged, while allowing for as much ads time possible. So, the 10 or or 16 mins length was identified as sweet spots to allow for at least one ad placement without loosing engagement. Click bait videos aren't demoted, they work. They keep users engaged as they get promoted to watch yet another video, until brain saturation. They maximised profit, they didn't strike the right balance, perhaps too naive to imagine competition could steal from their market share.
Here we have tiktok, knowing very well they would need to be order of magnitude better to gain traction, at least where the market was already taken up by YouTube. They created an app making it easier and faster to push well cut content, with better tech, better suited UI and overall UX proven to be attracting younger audiences who tend to make trends with their creativity.
Take a good look at the YouTube app, despite the few visual improvements it feels like a decade old library system with auto play, ported to mobile phones. Look at tiktok, it's mobile first, it's fluid and design for touch interaction, the social features are right there, not outside the video in the form of two thumbs button and a thread of text blobs.
Google clearly don't understand or refuses to understand trends. They build minimalist systems , boring to look at but that perform very well, and it is now capitalist greed that set the direction of the company, the bottom line is to squeeze more and more money before the competitions finishes them. They got a few years to go on like that.
YouTube, for years even post acquisition made no money, kept bleeding to aquire users. At one point a revenue stream is implemented, which must keep growing to recoup the large investments. Not to mention, pure greed.
The algorithm isn't designed to promote quality content to enhance the user experience and love for the product. It's designed to keep users engaged, while allowing for as much ads time possible. So, the 10 or or 16 mins length was identified as sweet spots to allow for at least one ad placement without loosing engagement. Click bait videos aren't demoted, they work. They keep users engaged as they get promoted to watch yet another video, until brain saturation. They maximised profit, they didn't strike the right balance, perhaps too naive to imagine competition could steal from their market share.
Here we have tiktok, knowing very well they would need to be order of magnitude better to gain traction, at least where the market was already taken up by YouTube. They created an app making it easier and faster to push well cut content, with better tech, better suited UI and overall UX proven to be attracting younger audiences who tend to make trends with their creativity.
Take a good look at the YouTube app, despite the few visual improvements it feels like a decade old library system with auto play, ported to mobile phones. Look at tiktok, it's mobile first, it's fluid and design for touch interaction, the social features are right there, not outside the video in the form of two thumbs button and a thread of text blobs.
Google clearly don't understand or refuses to understand trends. They build minimalist systems , boring to look at but that perform very well, and it is now capitalist greed that set the direction of the company, the bottom line is to squeeze more and more money before the competitions finishes them. They got a few years to go on like that.
> better suited UI and overall UX proven to be attracting younger audiences who tend to make trends with their creativity
The funny thing is that most of the people I follow on TikTok are over 30, a good portion is over 40 =)
The funny thing is that most of the people I follow on TikTok are over 30, a good portion is over 40 =)
Of course. You are probably in that age range yourself so that's your circle, and barely content creator
I would assume. Youngsters innovate, the previous generations tend to follow.
Yea, it's a bit of a meme on TikTok how "old people" took over the app during Covid :D
Please. I don’t want social features in my video library app. I unsubscribed from YouTube since I can’t remove “shorts” from the interface. I’m not going to pay for them to lobotomize me…
The social aspect is on YouTube as much as it is on tiktok, one got it work better in term of UX. As for shorts, the same critic can be made of Twitter, which I despite but the content is forced concise for the reason mentioned in another comment. Shorts on YouTube and Facebook are some poorly implemented afterthought, in playing catch up, I also find it sad we can't hide them altogether.
Yeah, it's very irritating, and one of the first thing I do when watching a Youtube video is to increase the Playback speed to 1.5x or 2x.
I like watching makeup videos and product reveals and I've just started straight away immediately skipping to the ~3:30min mark because that is when they actually start showing the damn palette.
It is pretty obvious why it is better though.
It is getting more input and it is getting faster input so it can course correct quicker and more aggressively.
The youtube algorithm wants to optimize for time on the site, and the creators try and have 10 minute videos it seems.
In that time you can consume 60 tiktok videos at 10s each and skipping the ones you dont want and watching the ones you do.
Since 10s is such a small investment they can throw random videos at you and it is pretty low cost.
It is getting more input and it is getting faster input so it can course correct quicker and more aggressively.
The youtube algorithm wants to optimize for time on the site, and the creators try and have 10 minute videos it seems.
In that time you can consume 60 tiktok videos at 10s each and skipping the ones you dont want and watching the ones you do.
Since 10s is such a small investment they can throw random videos at you and it is pretty low cost.
i’ve watched a lot of youtube this year. every day, and i rarely consume any other media at all. Its overtuned to locking you in and i generally agree with OP. I was watching a lot of guitar stuff and at one point that’s literally all it would show me, despite having other interests. i think i appreciated it was a bit lacking when i realized i was regularly clicking into my subscriptions and searching (manually) for new stuff they or related channels may have uploaded — and finding many interesting videos after wards.
Its a hard problem and perhaps im an exception, but if you are searching for new stuff, and finding amd watching it, that’s a miss by the algorithm. Especially if that becomes the main thing you do.
Its a hard problem and perhaps im an exception, but if you are searching for new stuff, and finding amd watching it, that’s a miss by the algorithm. Especially if that becomes the main thing you do.
> youtube algorithm wants to optimize for time on the site, and the creators try and have 10 minute videos it seems.
I can't stand that. Every video I watch these days is 50% filler just to make that 10mins. I'm forced to watch everything at 2x speed.
I can't stand that. Every video I watch these days is 50% filler just to make that 10mins. I'm forced to watch everything at 2x speed.
I saw so much promotion of the tiktok algorithm on HN so I decided to check it out. For the first hour I was laughing at almost every video. The app very quickly optimized to show me funny videos from people like me. And then after a few times using the app, I quickly became bored. I don't want to see endless funny videos, I want to watch some longer informative videos and I couldn't see how to make the app do that.
When I go on youtube it shows me 10-20 minute science and engineering videos which I can put on and sit on the couch watching. This provides lasting value for me because I never get bored of these like I do with 20 second comedy videos.
When I go on youtube it shows me 10-20 minute science and engineering videos which I can put on and sit on the couch watching. This provides lasting value for me because I never get bored of these like I do with 20 second comedy videos.
YouTube creators create a new channel for one or two videos or avoid content entirely because they're terrified the algorithm will ruin the good thing they have going if they branch out into a new topic. They do it once and see the hit and never do it again.
[deleted]
> farrier
There is something weirdly mesmerizing about that. watching them scrape away the stuff from the hoof like it's butter...
There is something weirdly mesmerizing about that. watching them scrape away the stuff from the hoof like it's butter...
This is a hit for US cultural dominance and influence.
Americans and Brits, at least in average watch time, are now consuming media ultimately controlled by the Chinese government.
And the previous election was influenced by a foreign government using American social media networks to influence, not to mention influencing the president-elect directly.
Either America's own social networks are used against them or social networks controlled by other countries are gaining dominance.
It seems nothing other than a decline in American influence in the world. And it comes from other countries outperforming the Americans.
Whether America reacts to this or ignores it through the arrogance of the current greatest will define American power in the world for generations.
Americans and Brits, at least in average watch time, are now consuming media ultimately controlled by the Chinese government.
And the previous election was influenced by a foreign government using American social media networks to influence, not to mention influencing the president-elect directly.
Either America's own social networks are used against them or social networks controlled by other countries are gaining dominance.
It seems nothing other than a decline in American influence in the world. And it comes from other countries outperforming the Americans.
Whether America reacts to this or ignores it through the arrogance of the current greatest will define American power in the world for generations.
> And the previous election was heavily influenced by a foreign government using American social media networks to influence.
Heavily influenced is a massive overstatement. Russia spent less money on US election influence than most individual mega-churches.
Heavily influenced is a massive overstatement. Russia spent less money on US election influence than most individual mega-churches.
> Russia spent less money [Citation needed]
You have no idea how much money they spent. What we do know from sworn testimony is that they reached 126 million users through Facebook alone [1] We also know they funneled millions into NRA to influence our elections with dark money.[2] They also had an army of social media influencers working at the IRA with a $1.25 million monthly budget. [3] And, what is the value of the influence from their state sponsored hackers that stole data and leaked through WikiLeaks? [4] No megachurch can do that.
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/30/technology/facebook-googl...
[2] https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/06/the-nra-spent-dollar...
[3] https://www.businessinsider.com/russian-troll-farm-spent-mil...
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_20...
You have no idea how much money they spent. What we do know from sworn testimony is that they reached 126 million users through Facebook alone [1] We also know they funneled millions into NRA to influence our elections with dark money.[2] They also had an army of social media influencers working at the IRA with a $1.25 million monthly budget. [3] And, what is the value of the influence from their state sponsored hackers that stole data and leaked through WikiLeaks? [4] No megachurch can do that.
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/30/technology/facebook-googl...
[2] https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/06/the-nra-spent-dollar...
[3] https://www.businessinsider.com/russian-troll-farm-spent-mil...
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_20...
Russia has tens of thousands full-time people sitting on computers just doing fake stuff on social media in America.
They basically took all the money and people they would have put into their regular army and put it into a social media army.
They basically took all the money and people they would have put into their regular army and put it into a social media army.
You’ve found those figures from the transparent and independent Russian statistics department giving the figures in roubles?
The cost to hack hilary's unauthorized personal email server could not have been that high.
Hillary didn't get hacked, it was one of the other people in her circle who got phished. John podesta I think?
Anyways. Yeah, phished. Maybe it's super secret agents or maybe it was a teenager from 4chan.
Anyways. Yeah, phished. Maybe it's super secret agents or maybe it was a teenager from 4chan.
Both happened. The spearfishing John Podestra gmail hack was separate.
The Hilary personal email server used for government business that contained classified information that was illegal was hacked by Russian agents the fbi alledged.
The Hilary personal email server used for government business that contained classified information that was illegal was hacked by Russian agents the fbi alledged.
FYI, putting in heavy partisan asides in comments hurts credibility with neutral readers.
I think you're confusing the DNC and campaign server hacks with Hillary's personal server she used while at State. No indications her personal server was hacked: https://techcrunch.com/2019/04/18/mueller-clinton-arizona-ha...
I think you're confusing the DNC and campaign server hacks with Hillary's personal server she used while at State. No indications her personal server was hacked: https://techcrunch.com/2019/04/18/mueller-clinton-arizona-ha...
Hillary's IT Admin was asking on reddit how to wipe a server of a VIP. With such incompetent admin there is a high probability that the server was hacked.
> Maybe it's super secret agents or maybe it was a teenager from 4chan.
Actually Hillary was hacked by a lone wolf from Romania, and he received jail for this https://youtu.be/8gfzNyZ3trI
Actually Hillary was hacked by a lone wolf from Romania, and he received jail for this https://youtu.be/8gfzNyZ3trI
From Wikipedia[0], quoting the Mueller report:
> The Mueller report detailed that the IRA spent $100,000 for over 3,500 Facebook advertisements, which included anti-Clinton and pro-Trump advertisements.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mueller_report#Social_media_ca...
> The Mueller report detailed that the IRA spent $100,000 for over 3,500 Facebook advertisements, which included anti-Clinton and pro-Trump advertisements.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mueller_report#Social_media_ca...
That an outrageous 0.0015% of the estimated 6.8 billion price tag of the 2016 election. Damn Ruskies and their election interference [shakes fist at the sky].
Fun fact, 100k is 0.4% of the price of the Mueller report itself, at 25M.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/election-2016s-price-tag-6-8-bi...
https://time.com/5557693/mueller-report-cost
Fun fact, 100k is 0.4% of the price of the Mueller report itself, at 25M.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/election-2016s-price-tag-6-8-bi...
https://time.com/5557693/mueller-report-cost
That is Facebook ad spend, not the total cost of the attack.
It doesn't include other things described in the paragraph that the IRA did, like organizing Trump rallies and running troll farms where they posed as Americans on social media.
It also doesn't cover things like paying for the operation to infiltrate the NRA etc.
And then of course there could be stuff we don't know about
It doesn't include other things described in the paragraph that the IRA did, like organizing Trump rallies and running troll farms where they posed as Americans on social media.
It also doesn't cover things like paying for the operation to infiltrate the NRA etc.
And then of course there could be stuff we don't know about
This is a bit of hit for US cultural dominance and influence.
How so? Almost everything I watch on tiktok is made by American content creators..Is TikTok proper even available to Chinese residents?
How so? Almost everything I watch on tiktok is made by American content creators..Is TikTok proper even available to Chinese residents?
Nope, there's a different app for China, called Douyin I believe.
Let's say one American says "China good" another American says "China bad". TikTok can make sure that former gets more views.
And we all know that that's not what happens now on any major non Chinese media platforms. The reality is that most of these platforms demonize China good contents and their creators, applying double standards https://news.cgtn.com/news/2021-01-22/YouTubers-under-fire-f...
CGTN is Chinese State Owned btw.
So they are the best candidate to point out the Western media's double standards, right? There is no better assuser of the villain than the victims...
And is ultimately controlled by the Chinese government
It's all about controlling the distribution of the media. The media content doesn't matter if it doesn't reach the audience at all.
Spotify and Pandora dominated music streaming for years, while based in Europe. Nonetheless, I wouldn’t say they were indicative of a decline in American influence.
Other countries’ companies can succeed whiteout diminishing America. Even China’s.
Other countries’ companies can succeed whiteout diminishing America. Even China’s.
Tangentially related, I wish Pandora was still a thing, I used to love it. Currently pandora.com redirects to a 404 page when viewed from outside the US [1]
[1] https://help.pandora.com/s/login/?language=en_US&startURL=%2...
[1] https://help.pandora.com/s/login/?language=en_US&startURL=%2...
Were they not acquired by SiriusXM a few years ago?
Which would mean that they weren’t doing too well anyway.
Which would mean that they weren’t doing too well anyway.
I thought Pandora started out of Oakland.
Even on TikTok American culture dominantly permeates worldwide. Chinese TikTok is a bit more moated.
Production and selection are distinct acts.
Selection is control.
Selection is control.
> Americans and Brits, at least in average watch time, are now consuming media ultimately controlled by the Chinese government.
That's a good thing, they will learn quickly why mass media monopoly is bad, when they now have the fear that drive them to actually look at the giant monsters...
That's a good thing, they will learn quickly why mass media monopoly is bad, when they now have the fear that drive them to actually look at the giant monsters...
The unfortunate thing is that monopoly often comes with control.
In the face of an overwhelming US monopoly of popular entertainment --- cinema, television, music, comics, and books --- the rest of the world ... had relatively little power. Yes, there are localised (and often government-supported / encouraged / incentivised) instances of each. But it was US pop culture that defined the direction and movement from the 1950s onward.
(For the pedants, 1) I love you, you're my third favourite people, except on the second Thursday of the month, and 2) "defined" != "there were no other influences.)
In the face of an overwhelming US monopoly of popular entertainment --- cinema, television, music, comics, and books --- the rest of the world ... had relatively little power. Yes, there are localised (and often government-supported / encouraged / incentivised) instances of each. But it was US pop culture that defined the direction and movement from the 1950s onward.
(For the pedants, 1) I love you, you're my third favourite people, except on the second Thursday of the month, and 2) "defined" != "there were no other influences.)
A couple of years ago, I noticed the youtube recommendations that would get were a lot less interesting, though still relevant to me somehow. At some point I started seeing a lot more "mainstream" content, especially after media companies figured out that they needed to have a youtube presence in order to stay relevant.
So I wonder if the algorithm the switched to had something to do with them potentially losing attention from users.
I can't speak to tik tok, never used it, never will.
So I wonder if the algorithm the switched to had something to do with them potentially losing attention from users.
I can't speak to tik tok, never used it, never will.
I wish someone at YouTube could explain, but the recommendation algo is nothing like what it used to be. Every refresh would bring a gem, now it's mostly the same videos, often from the same channel if I happened to watch a few in a row... Very odd.
I also feel this way. In the past I was completely satisfied with the recommended content.
I now find it over-calibrates to recommend based on recently watched videos, whether the same channel or the same style.
For example, I watched a video the other day, something like "Boris Johnson pronouncing the word _____". Next thing I know, my recommendations are flooded with similar videos that I don't really want to spend my time on.
This deters me from watching videos that come up that I'm mildly curious in watching, but don't really want to watch more of.
I now find it over-calibrates to recommend based on recently watched videos, whether the same channel or the same style.
For example, I watched a video the other day, something like "Boris Johnson pronouncing the word _____". Next thing I know, my recommendations are flooded with similar videos that I don't really want to spend my time on.
This deters me from watching videos that come up that I'm mildly curious in watching, but don't really want to watch more of.
This is exactly my experience, the absolute worst is when it clearly recommends videos that I have already watched, as if it thinks I've forgotten and somehow won't notice since apparently I'm the guy from Momento.
It feels like I keep seeing same videos recommended over and over again. And it is not like Youtube does not know that I have watched majority of the length...
yes, Youtube's recommendation algorithm got very bad. The front page always shows more or less the same videos - many of which I have already watched...
That's the worst. I already watched these videos while logged in the app. Why am I being suggested these again? Also, thousands of interesting hours of video are uploaded daily, why am I seeing the same 5+ years old videos over and over again?
I noticed this as well. Good thing though, so I don't waste as much time on there.
It looks like it uses only a hand full of recently watched videos.
Every TikTok user I know tells me that the primary reason they use it is the algorithm. Apparently it’s way ahead of YouTube. Anecdotally I am in the same boat as you—ended up removing the YouTube suggestion sidebar with an adblocker due to its increasingly poor quality.
One anecdote that I heard about the TikTok algo is that it favors new creators with <5k subscribers and actively pushes that content to new users. This is opposed to how Youtube does it, where more established creators are pushed over news ones.
I feel like this is what really helps TikTok always have fresh content. If you want to become a YouTuber, the path to having a good following can be years of grind. With TikTok, there is a good shot your first video might just propel you to stardom. Thus more people are inclined to create content for TikTok. It creates a feedback loop
I feel like this is what really helps TikTok always have fresh content. If you want to become a YouTuber, the path to having a good following can be years of grind. With TikTok, there is a good shot your first video might just propel you to stardom. Thus more people are inclined to create content for TikTok. It creates a feedback loop
Or, as famously yelled by Ballmer: Developers! Developers! Developers!, where the developers are content creators.
You can make really great content on YT and reach an audience. Creators like Tom Scott prove it's possible. But you have to hit a minimum production quality or the algorithm is going to discard you. Mostly this means that you still need a team of people to make it on YT. On TT, it's still totally fine to make bad production quality that has great informational content. So yes, YT has niche content, when considered against TV, but TT has one more factor of magnitude more niche content.
For a bit of anecdotes of the people that I am following: About 30% come from YouTube/Other Internet Media and produce TikTok style content, about 20% are TT Stars, and 50% are these small creators that YT wouldn't even consider. This group, checking their followers, averages about 10k. On YT I don't subscribe to a single person below 100k followers.
I have Category Theory TT accounts followed, but no Category Theory YT channels subscribed. Do CT have YT accounts? Possibly. But not once has YT shown me that content. This might be a problem with me, but TT resolves it through their natural flow, and as I am significantly more advanced than the average user, a problem with me is a problem for the platform.
At this point the path is going to be to start on TT and only move to YT once you have established a following that can make it over the YT recommendation escape velocity.
Developers! Developers! Developers!
You can make really great content on YT and reach an audience. Creators like Tom Scott prove it's possible. But you have to hit a minimum production quality or the algorithm is going to discard you. Mostly this means that you still need a team of people to make it on YT. On TT, it's still totally fine to make bad production quality that has great informational content. So yes, YT has niche content, when considered against TV, but TT has one more factor of magnitude more niche content.
For a bit of anecdotes of the people that I am following: About 30% come from YouTube/Other Internet Media and produce TikTok style content, about 20% are TT Stars, and 50% are these small creators that YT wouldn't even consider. This group, checking their followers, averages about 10k. On YT I don't subscribe to a single person below 100k followers.
I have Category Theory TT accounts followed, but no Category Theory YT channels subscribed. Do CT have YT accounts? Possibly. But not once has YT shown me that content. This might be a problem with me, but TT resolves it through their natural flow, and as I am significantly more advanced than the average user, a problem with me is a problem for the platform.
At this point the path is going to be to start on TT and only move to YT once you have established a following that can make it over the YT recommendation escape velocity.
Developers! Developers! Developers!
I don't think channel going back 15 years is good example for new creators. I would expect them to keep somewhat relevant as they have been trough enough cycles to keep some audience always.
YT content is more longform and making that good and engaging takes tons of practice according to my observation. Look at early content of some big names like MKBHD for example. You can see the potential in them but they are nowhere as good as their new content.
Anecdotally this seems correct to me. A friend of mine has had several viral TikTok videos hit millions of views, and he's only been on TikTok for a little while. He did no outside promotion. I think the only way a new YouTube video would do that is if it was absolutely earth shattering in some regard.
This is interesting. I think this approach goes hand in hand with a much lower quality bar on TikTok. We have an expectation that YouTube videos have a certain production quality, so pushing new creators would often result in unmet expectations. On TikTok new creators can record a 15 second dance and be instantly indistinguishable quality-wise from more experienced creators.
I feel like some AI has decided that this video is "good for you". I have some videos on my feed for weeks on end. Now some videos I have already seen are reappearing without the red bar to signify that I have already watched them.
Something definitely stinks with the algo on YT currently. At least for me
Something definitely stinks with the algo on YT currently. At least for me
Exact same here, frustrates me to no end. They conveniently forget I've already watched some videos and they are shown as unwatched when I clearly remember watching them. Then others which DO show the red bar on the bottom indicating I've watched it, yet they still recommend it to me?!? Sometimes I have DOZENS of these recommendations in my feed. Lately it's been bad enough for me to really consider ditching YT for good.
IMHO, we should be able to select or tune algo on YT, FB, Goo, etc. to serve us content. One algo is not enough for everybody.
Same experience for me the last couple of weeks.
Veritasium did a video on this recently [1] where he talks about how YouTube saw falling engagement when only showing users their subscribed channels, so they started recommending more non-subscribed content a couple years ago (he talks about this around the 2-3 minute mark in the video).
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2xHZPH5Sng
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2xHZPH5Sng
I feel like the subscription system takes too much manual upkeep that the average user is not willing to do. If I look at my subscriptions list there is stuff I haven't paid attention to for 5+ years because its too much effort to bulk unsubscribe. But the youtube front page picks up on this and just never shows me any of it.
The algorithm does a decent job of showing the stuff I have been interested in recently over just a simple mix of my subscriptions.
The algorithm does a decent job of showing the stuff I have been interested in recently over just a simple mix of my subscriptions.
I feel the same. Recommendations are as simple on youtube as “get top 10 videos in your country”
I wish someone could make a YouTube 2011 clone. Maybe call it YouTube classic — of course this would be a trademark infringement, so it would have to be named something else. But seriously, if I can get YouTube 2011 back with its human curated categories and recommended videos sidebar that is based on the video that is currently being watched, then I would be so happy!
I think I found today what I am looking for. https://utreon.com/ looks to be a close contender to what I seek.
Can someone explain to me what happened to Vine? I feel like it beat TikTok to the punch by ~8 years before it was bought and then unceremoniously killed by Twitter. Was that the first example of US innovation being suffocated by the big tech oligopoly?
Vine's an example of the beginning of great idea that wasn't taken to its full potential. There are significant key differences between vine and tiktok. There are three that come to mind.
Tiktok expanded allowed uploaded video duration up to 3 minutes. The For You Page algorithm (which drives the content you see in the feed) is scarily impressive in how it can match the viewer with content they would most want to see. Lastly, and probably most importantly (in my opinion) Tiktok fosters a home for a vast number of entertaining and informative content creators that give them an edge. Vine mostly went for entertainment in quick six second bursts.
Tiktok expanded allowed uploaded video duration up to 3 minutes. The For You Page algorithm (which drives the content you see in the feed) is scarily impressive in how it can match the viewer with content they would most want to see. Lastly, and probably most importantly (in my opinion) Tiktok fosters a home for a vast number of entertaining and informative content creators that give them an edge. Vine mostly went for entertainment in quick six second bursts.
> Tiktok fosters a home for a vast number of entertaining and informative content creators that give them an edge
Vine did this too which is a big part of why it's so surprising to me: Vine didn't just have the tech but they had the community. You can still find Vine compilations on YouTube with millions of views that capture the vibrant set of content creators that Vine once had.
Honestly the only real difference between Vine and TikTok in my mind is that Vine was more focused on comedy while TikTok is more focused on music. Otherwise the two services were pretty much identical.
Vine did this too which is a big part of why it's so surprising to me: Vine didn't just have the tech but they had the community. You can still find Vine compilations on YouTube with millions of views that capture the vibrant set of content creators that Vine once had.
Honestly the only real difference between Vine and TikTok in my mind is that Vine was more focused on comedy while TikTok is more focused on music. Otherwise the two services were pretty much identical.
TikTok had a much better creator reimbursement platform and partnerships built in from the start, and benefited a lot from the early work Twitch and YouTube did setting the tone here, as well as the growth of "influencer culture" leading to further brand and advertising involvement in the space.
This is very good.
I would add: the world was not ready for Vine.
The amount of content, the type of it, and the number of people out there willing to make goofy content - I mean young and old alike ... is amazing.
The number of people with cellphones and decent cameras recording 'everything' means we now have all sorts of vidoes of 'guy fishing and whale breaches' or literal lighting strikes etc..
And the normalization of content creation, of likes, of views, the possibility of making money from it etc..
Basically the tools, cultural norms, media and social systems - all reached a critical mass some time after Vine.
If Vine were to have held on, evolved along the lines you indicated, they might have beak TikTok to it.
Oh - and one last point: TikTok started with cute dancing girls among teens. That content category is a great place to start, break through, and get a critical mass going before breaking into parrots swearing, cute babies, and funny challenges.
I would add: the world was not ready for Vine.
The amount of content, the type of it, and the number of people out there willing to make goofy content - I mean young and old alike ... is amazing.
The number of people with cellphones and decent cameras recording 'everything' means we now have all sorts of vidoes of 'guy fishing and whale breaches' or literal lighting strikes etc..
And the normalization of content creation, of likes, of views, the possibility of making money from it etc..
Basically the tools, cultural norms, media and social systems - all reached a critical mass some time after Vine.
If Vine were to have held on, evolved along the lines you indicated, they might have beak TikTok to it.
Oh - and one last point: TikTok started with cute dancing girls among teens. That content category is a great place to start, break through, and get a critical mass going before breaking into parrots swearing, cute babies, and funny challenges.
I think you are spot on.
Just want to add that the content consumption was also hindered by the technology.
Fun Fact: Vine was created in the same year the first CNN completed ImageNet with (much) higher accuracy than others contestants.
Just want to add that the content consumption was also hindered by the technology.
Fun Fact: Vine was created in the same year the first CNN completed ImageNet with (much) higher accuracy than others contestants.
TikTok (or at least my experience with it) is largely focused on 15-second clips, so I'm not sure duration differences are the significant ones. It seems the algorithm's ability to surface engaging content on a per-user basis is more important than anything else.
You forgot to mention that TikTok enables the use of high quality copywrited music in their videos.
I always wondered how it got away with using copyrighted music... that was the wow factor for me.
TikTok started as Musical.ly and had actually signed a deal with labels to use short music clips.
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How does it do that? I’ve watched plenty of youtube streams where some of the audio was cut due to background music.
I'm guessing content owners may have realized the value in letting people use tiny sections of their songs. Meme songs on tiktok likely generate huge profits when streams of that song jump.
you're leaving out algorithmic discovery and promotion, widely considered tiktok's secret sauce
Vine was funny (really funny) but Tiktok shows you what you want to see, and that’s more powerful. It’s very effective and scarily addictive in a way Vine wasn’t.
> unceremoniously killed by Twitter
Twitter wouldn't know a good product idea or how to find one if it hit them in the face.
They got lucky with the original Twitter product, but the biggest change since it has launched is increasing tweet length from 140 to 280 characters.
Compare that to Facebook who - for all their faults - know how to iterate on product ideas and leverage their platform to build new markets.
Twitter wouldn't know a good product idea or how to find one if it hit them in the face.
They got lucky with the original Twitter product, but the biggest change since it has launched is increasing tweet length from 140 to 280 characters.
Compare that to Facebook who - for all their faults - know how to iterate on product ideas and leverage their platform to build new markets.
Combination of easy to use editing tools and effects to emphasise creativity together with the sound tracks. It’s often missed but the soundtracks were (still) are a big reason for it’s traction. It’s become the new mtv
Tiktok is much better as it allows people to infinitely remix existing content. Like a video with a funny sound? With one tap you can make your own and get that "SEO" juice from using that popular sound.
I think the biggest difference is that the number of mobile-app users worldwide is double that from 2016, when Twitter announced they were shutting vine down.
When Vine started in 2012 there were only ~1B smartphone users.
When Vine started in 2012 there were only ~1B smartphone users.
The average data bandwidth also increased.
Vine started in 2013 and uploads were shut down in 2016; the same year TikTok launched.
I think they're asking why.
Twitter is allergic to making good business decisions. Even later on, they never attempted to resurrect Vine after TikTok showed the way and FB followed suit with Instagram Reels.
Mismanagement by @Jack.
Most of the decline happened under Costolo thoguh. Dorsey finished the job.
The Twitter Touch: the opposite of the Midas Touch. Everything they touch turns to shit.
Does TikTok have any ads? I'm not sure how they can survive.
There's ads. Upon opening the app, I get one to apply to work at Chick-fil-A. After scrolling a number of videos, I got an for Givingli. No idea how much/little that pays the bandwidth bills, but the ads themselves are largely disguised as content - ads look just like any other content in the app. It does say sponsored while showing an ad, but it's subtle.
Yes TikTok has ads AND the ad rates are pretty high (I worked in marketing tech for a while and saw the rate card and the huge amount companies spend there)
Yes. From my experience, they gradually phased them in for me as I started using it. Now, more often than not, the first video is an ad.
It's funded by the party comrade.
No, they have in-app purchases?
No, they have in-app purchases?
I don't get why people keep saying vine should have been popular. Myspace beat facebook and look which survived. Myspace was never going to be like facebook. Why should vine have been as big as tiktok just because it was first? Theres plenty of examples of being first not being the winner.
Vine was shut down prior to TikTok's launch. Vine had struck gold and was discarded, then foreign copycats (TikTok and Musical.ly) filled the void. It's one thing for TikTok to beat Vine, another for Vine/Twitter to not even try.
At the very least it's an interesting parable of how short-sighted "innovative" big tech companies can be.
At the very least it's an interesting parable of how short-sighted "innovative" big tech companies can be.
They fumbled the usability of the app. Badly.
> Was that the first example of US innovation being suffocated by the big tech oligopoly?
there's countless examples
there's countless examples
I don't think Twitter could afford to lose money with Vines for very long.
The CCP can afford to lose money with TikTok for a long time. Straight from the propaganda budget really.
The CCP can afford to lose money with TikTok for a long time. Straight from the propaganda budget really.
Can afford to lose money for a long time — IIRC this is called “long term planning” …
I have yet to see a single CCP propaganda video on TikTok. What exactly are you seeing?
They aren’t showing propaganda videos, they are filtering out what makes them look bad and emphasizing what makes them look good.
Update: here’s a reference to leaked documents to this effect: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/technology/...
Update: here’s a reference to leaked documents to this effect: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/technology/...
Just like Youtube scrapped from its search results the full version of that July presidential town hall video because it was not looking so good.
Ah ok. That makes lots of sense.
CCP propaganda won’t be a red flying with people chanting “China is great!” It will be something like “masks aren’t effective” to increase the impact of COVID on America.
All the videos I see on TikTok regarding COVID are all pro-mask/pro-vax/pro-science. I can see how others will be led down a different path though. Not sure it's intentional so much as showing people what they want to see, and I don't see how it's any different than, say, YouTube where one can also go down a rabbit hole and get stuck there.
And yet if you walk across the aisle, you will hear people saying the opposite: CCP propaganda is something like "vaccines are effective" to increase the microchip coverage, or whatever.
Isn't that what I said? People have vaccine hesitancy because of propaganda from other countries undermining confidence in the government.
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Something as massive as YouTube can be beaten. This feels like the circle of life, considering every empire that rises eventually falls too.
Though I am not saying TikTok is the doom for YouTube since geo politics will play a significant role its future. And there are other metrics by which TikTok hasn’t probably caught up with YouTube yet like the size of the user base, revenue etc.
What seems odd is how TikTok is managing this. YouTube is popular among all demographics, the diversity of content is mind bogglingly high whereas (I presume) TikTok is popular among the crowd who are either going to highschool or in college. Its primary purpose is entertainment, so how did it beat YouTube exactly?
What seems odd is how TikTok is managing this. YouTube is popular among all demographics, the diversity of content is mind bogglingly high whereas (I presume) TikTok is popular among the crowd who are either going to highschool or in college. Its primary purpose is entertainment, so how did it beat YouTube exactly?
I think they're very different platforms serving completely different content. I see tiktok as instagram/twitter/snapchat's competition rather than youtube's. If you go back several years on youtube(like 10 years back) you'll find a lot more casual low-res videos of people being goofy/interesting without any agenda to build a following. Nowadays youtubers are all "Hey guys thanks for clicking on my clickbait title don't forget to smash that like button and subscribe I know you're here because of the title but I'm going to do a long intro about something else because I really need this to be 10 minutes long." To be fair many of these are great documentary/educational/infotainment/explainer series on Youtube that I won't find anywhere else. Wendover or Real Engineering are more well-known examples but there's a long-tail of niche history and economics accounts I like to follow that formats like tiktok won't serve anytime soon.
The lowered barrier to entry with TikTok and its algorithm means that someone with a PhD in an extremely esoteric field can do a quick presentation without having to make TikTok their new career. Real Engineering is great, but they didn't randomly fire off one YouTube video and get where they are today.
TikTok is also absolutely filled with pseudo informative content which looks exactly like this but the statements and numbers are complete garbage. Because the platform does not put much weight behind users and names, this stuff is just as prominent as the real content.
Don't they serve very different demographics and/or interests?
I've been assuming TikTok is the equivalent of "what is trending today", where "what" is something related to dance moves, or other stuff I don't find very interesting. (Or, it's not that I find dance moves uninteresting, it's just that it's not something I'd want to spend time consuming). Are my assumptions wrong, and there is genuinely interesting, and more in depth content on TikTok?
Also, the whole thought of a video platform devoted to teenagers filming themselves dance ... is... well, to be honest, a bit creepy. But I suppose this is a concern for just a part of the content if my assumptions are wrong.
Ps: Just to clear, I'm not saying there isn't creative things or something to learn or expand some kind of understanding through TikTok. Just that, surely, there isn't much overlap between YouTube and a platform limited to 15 second video clips? Especially one, that for someone who has never used it, seems mostly limited to teenagers filming themselves dance?
I've been assuming TikTok is the equivalent of "what is trending today", where "what" is something related to dance moves, or other stuff I don't find very interesting. (Or, it's not that I find dance moves uninteresting, it's just that it's not something I'd want to spend time consuming). Are my assumptions wrong, and there is genuinely interesting, and more in depth content on TikTok?
Also, the whole thought of a video platform devoted to teenagers filming themselves dance ... is... well, to be honest, a bit creepy. But I suppose this is a concern for just a part of the content if my assumptions are wrong.
Ps: Just to clear, I'm not saying there isn't creative things or something to learn or expand some kind of understanding through TikTok. Just that, surely, there isn't much overlap between YouTube and a platform limited to 15 second video clips? Especially one, that for someone who has never used it, seems mostly limited to teenagers filming themselves dance?
> dance moves, or other stuff I don't find very interesting
There are lots of different corners of TikTok, and for good or bad it's generally pretty good at forming some fairly niche communities. I have a couple of primarily dance-oriented creators I follow—none of them teenagers, fwiw—but the most interesting are the ones who use their platform to educate, whether it be about science-y stuff or music or history or whatever; I've learned a lot from following a substantial group of Black creators who've taken the time to talk about their lived experiences. These communities with somewhat deeper content really took off when the platform opened up 60 second videos (I gather that was late in 2020?) and they've mostly gotten even better now that creators (at least some of us?) can make 3-minute videos.
It's all based on what you like and follow, though. Very early on, it's worthwhile to go out-of-band to track down names of a few creators that you can seed your for-you-page with, otherwise you'll get the lowest common denominator stuff. Sometimes someone will "duet" or "stitch" another video and then you're introduced to another creator and can follow them directly; other times the FYP itself will serve up someone you've never seen or heard of but that has content (and presumably like-and-follow patterns) similar to the ones you do follow. And then you can like and/or follow the new person.
I mean, there's thirst traps too. If those were the only videos you liked, then that's what it would show you.
There are lots of different corners of TikTok, and for good or bad it's generally pretty good at forming some fairly niche communities. I have a couple of primarily dance-oriented creators I follow—none of them teenagers, fwiw—but the most interesting are the ones who use their platform to educate, whether it be about science-y stuff or music or history or whatever; I've learned a lot from following a substantial group of Black creators who've taken the time to talk about their lived experiences. These communities with somewhat deeper content really took off when the platform opened up 60 second videos (I gather that was late in 2020?) and they've mostly gotten even better now that creators (at least some of us?) can make 3-minute videos.
It's all based on what you like and follow, though. Very early on, it's worthwhile to go out-of-band to track down names of a few creators that you can seed your for-you-page with, otherwise you'll get the lowest common denominator stuff. Sometimes someone will "duet" or "stitch" another video and then you're introduced to another creator and can follow them directly; other times the FYP itself will serve up someone you've never seen or heard of but that has content (and presumably like-and-follow patterns) similar to the ones you do follow. And then you can like and/or follow the new person.
I mean, there's thirst traps too. If those were the only videos you liked, then that's what it would show you.
Based on the suggestions here, I went ahead and looked for myself, and I'm impressed by how fast and accurate TikTok figured out what I liked. After about two minutes, all it showed me was a combination tools, nature, animals, and woodworking.
I have a more niche hobbies like 3d printing and electronics which I'm sure it'll pick up within enough time, but, not a single video of what I assumed almost all videos were.
I'm happy to be wrong, and I get why TikTok is so popular.
I have a more niche hobbies like 3d printing and electronics which I'm sure it'll pick up within enough time, but, not a single video of what I assumed almost all videos were.
I'm happy to be wrong, and I get why TikTok is so popular.
While dance content is the most popular, the system that recommends videos allows a factor of magnitude more niches than other platforms. In no way is TT limited to dance. Within the first day I stopped seeing dance content. If you want to post stuff that would do well here, it would do well on TikTok.
Is the barrier to entry (installing yet another app on your phone) onerous in some way that I don't see? Otherwise it seems straightforwards enough to install the app for yourself and see what's on there.
There's a ton of content that isn't thirst traps (aka teenagers dancing), but while that's an interesting question to dig in to, if enough people switch mediums (from newspapers to radio to TV to YouTube to Tiktok), there doesn't have to be an overlap for one to largely supplant the next. How's the New York Times doing these days?
There's a ton of content that isn't thirst traps (aka teenagers dancing), but while that's an interesting question to dig in to, if enough people switch mediums (from newspapers to radio to TV to YouTube to Tiktok), there doesn't have to be an overlap for one to largely supplant the next. How's the New York Times doing these days?
I have never installed TikTok or watched any content on it. I assume it is a spiritual successor to Vine.
To be fair, Youtube VS TikTok is mostly the wrong comparison.
Tiktok is mostly competing with the Insta/Facebook I need distraction so I'll let myself be numbed with external impulses as fast as I can get. Most similar was the story feature in Instagram, often also videos, although nobody every compared viewing them with Youtube.
Although Youtube also has it's scroll/impulsive it's not a direct competition. Although you could argue any form of time consumption (online) is competition.
Tiktok is mostly competing with the Insta/Facebook I need distraction so I'll let myself be numbed with external impulses as fast as I can get. Most similar was the story feature in Instagram, often also videos, although nobody every compared viewing them with Youtube.
Although Youtube also has it's scroll/impulsive it's not a direct competition. Although you could argue any form of time consumption (online) is competition.
I would not go as far as saying the comparison is wrong. From what I have read about the platform, it is a video sharing platform where teenagers can also insert currently trending music and share the content. There is also a home feed that works automatically by finding the best video suggested by an algorithm. So based on that description, it is fair to compare it to YouTube.
I agree YouTube /Instagram/Snapchat stories feature is closer to the experience of TikTok.
Though I making a guess since I have only read about it and seen some screenshots.
I agree YouTube /Instagram/Snapchat stories feature is closer to the experience of TikTok.
Though I making a guess since I have only read about it and seen some screenshots.
Tiktok videos are on average a few seconds to a maximum of 3 minutes (which is rare to see anything over a minute). A youtube video is 5-10
minutes on average. Comparing apples and oranges only works if are talking about a fruit salad.
The amount of commenting by people who have (proudly?) never used Tiktok in this thread is staggering.
Tiktok is more popular than just young people. I actually discovered tiktok was a thing because of... my mother, who used it.
The algorithms is insane, and it works for any age.
The age demographic for now is probably because young people tend to download new apps first than old people.
The algorithms is insane, and it works for any age.
The age demographic for now is probably because young people tend to download new apps first than old people.
I think they're just different markets. YT is doing fine, revenue is up 30% YOY and all their viewer and channel growth numbers are very healthy.
YT has some knock-off of Stories but I have never used it. But unfortunately a lot of creators I watch (even some guys who explain very involved technical stuff) make videos for it now and label it #shorts which is annoying since I usually watch YouTube on my laptop or iPad.
It would be nice to see YouTube beaten by a more open platform like PeerTube. TikTok is just another proprietary app run by a for-profit company.
It would be nice but unless some massive VC backs it to market it and help it scale, or content creators become aware about it and jump ship, it won’t make a big dent.
TikTok seems emblematic of China's overall approach compared to the West - shows up late to the party, but studies all those hard-won lessons to copy and later surpass the most successful Western products. The free market is great at finding the superior product, but it's also messy and wasteful with all those failed attempts - why not just sit it out until a winner starts to emerge, then copy them? China seems to have perfected the art of the fast follower.
Tiktok is very much a product of the 'free market' segment in China. The government does have a minority ownership stake in it now, but that's very recent and they played no role in it's founding by Zhang Yiming, a programmer and serial app and online service founder.
Yeah, my understanding is that the recommendation engine was already developed for a news app popular in India, and that they grafted this onto Musical.ly (the acquisition which has now become TikTok).
Also, they spent many, many millions on ads to get the app everywhere.
Also, they spent many, many millions on ads to get the app everywhere.
Millions? They spent a lot more than 10s of millions on advertising. They spent roughly a billion on advertising and probably are one of the most advertised products ever in spending. https://www.wsj.com/articles/tiktoks-videos-are-goofy-its-st...
many, many millions can be approximately equal to 1bn. I am aware that they advertised a lot, but didn't have (and wouldn't trust) any figures provided on this, as I've seen how wrong they can be.
no different than SV itself. How many Clubhouse clones did we have exactly, not to mention just about every established giant suddenly coming up with 'spaces' and 'stage channels'?
That's always been the game, inside and outside of countries.
That's always been the game, inside and outside of countries.
Note that this is watch time *per active user* lest anyone interprets the title as TikTok having more total active user-time.
Seems many here are not TikTok users (and some never will) but besides algo TikTok video editing with music and app UX has made people so easy to jump on uploading and recording video from a smartphone, and making this toxic culture of attention from the young audience on making TikTok videos (just look for the cringe reactions of people recording TikTok users making videos).
I feel like I'm going crazy. Hasn't TikTok been proven malicious in it's excessive user tracking and data theft? Why does everyone I know still use it? Outside of privacy concerns, doesn't the blackbox algorithm make anyone worry? We're building automated echochambers for an entire population. We're giving a Chinese company the ability to control the content consumption, and therefore beliefs and knowledge, of entire countries. The ever growing popularity of tiktok is, to me, extremely concerning.
As a Frenchmen, Youtube is exactly the same:
- algo is a black box, and uncalibrated youtube makes my eyes bleed;
- own by the biggest spy on the planet, google, known for manipulating information, monopolistic behavior, participation in the worst gov programs (e.g: PRISM);
- impose American censorship rules to the entire world, and makes creators do inane cuts to fit some terrible metrics
Besides, the typical Tik Tok customer doesn't give a damn about those things. They didn't on facebook, insta, whatsapp, or whatever. They don't even know it's an issue, "have nothing to hide", don't care about privacy, power centralization, citizen spying and so on.
So Tik Tok or something else doesn't matter.
- algo is a black box, and uncalibrated youtube makes my eyes bleed;
- own by the biggest spy on the planet, google, known for manipulating information, monopolistic behavior, participation in the worst gov programs (e.g: PRISM);
- impose American censorship rules to the entire world, and makes creators do inane cuts to fit some terrible metrics
Besides, the typical Tik Tok customer doesn't give a damn about those things. They didn't on facebook, insta, whatsapp, or whatever. They don't even know it's an issue, "have nothing to hide", don't care about privacy, power centralization, citizen spying and so on.
So Tik Tok or something else doesn't matter.
I see where you're coming from, but Youtube isn't nearly as opaque as Tiktok. You can actually search for videos on youtube, typically content is longer and has a higher production quality which reduces probability of doom-scrolling. As someone else mentioned, TikTok is intentionally designed to be addictive and gamified, much more so that youtube or facebook.
And, objectively speaking, the US government is far preferable to the CCP. The US has it's issues and has made mistakes in the past, the CCP is still putting Muslims in concentration camps and exercises regular authoritarian controll over it's citizens. Militarily, the US is allied with most EU powers (including France) and generally has good intentions for it's allies. China, on the other hand, finds itself on the outside of most alliances, and considering that even their own people are treated poorly, I can only imagine that their intentions for others are not positive.
American tech companies take your data and sell it to advertisers, I don't like it, but they do. The US government only accesses it if they have a reason to do so and subpoena the specific information needed. The Chinese government? I have no doubt that they're collecting data for much more nefarious purposes. Intelligence indicates that they've been improving their military forces massively in the last several decades. It wouldn't be hard for them to subtly start slipping in propaganda into the tiktok feeds of countries they intend to invade, and then they'll have local-national support.
I think it's easy to look at this and say objectively that it's worse. If Youtube or Facebook were owned by France or Germany I would hold the same belief that tiktok is worse. It's not fear of some mysterious "other", but fear of a proven enemy to freedom and human rights, China.
And, objectively speaking, the US government is far preferable to the CCP. The US has it's issues and has made mistakes in the past, the CCP is still putting Muslims in concentration camps and exercises regular authoritarian controll over it's citizens. Militarily, the US is allied with most EU powers (including France) and generally has good intentions for it's allies. China, on the other hand, finds itself on the outside of most alliances, and considering that even their own people are treated poorly, I can only imagine that their intentions for others are not positive.
American tech companies take your data and sell it to advertisers, I don't like it, but they do. The US government only accesses it if they have a reason to do so and subpoena the specific information needed. The Chinese government? I have no doubt that they're collecting data for much more nefarious purposes. Intelligence indicates that they've been improving their military forces massively in the last several decades. It wouldn't be hard for them to subtly start slipping in propaganda into the tiktok feeds of countries they intend to invade, and then they'll have local-national support.
I think it's easy to look at this and say objectively that it's worse. If Youtube or Facebook were owned by France or Germany I would hold the same belief that tiktok is worse. It's not fear of some mysterious "other", but fear of a proven enemy to freedom and human rights, China.
> The US government only accesses it if they have a reason to do so and subpoena the specific information needed
As Snowden revelations have shown, this is not the case.
> It wouldn't be hard for them to subtly start slipping in propaganda into the tiktok feeds of countries they intend to invade
Last time I checked, the USA were the number one warmonger in the world, sometimes by lying about WMD and going against the vote of the UN.
I'm not defending China, I do think Tiktok is a dictatorship honeypot, but the USA is only good to the USA. A cancer is worst than diabetes, but I still don't think diabetes is a good thing.
And google is only good to google.
I'm in the good graces of neither, being in Europe, and consider both as services that will try to get as much of me as possible when I use them. And the minute our interest are not aligned with theirs, they will bite us.
As Snowden revelations have shown, this is not the case.
> It wouldn't be hard for them to subtly start slipping in propaganda into the tiktok feeds of countries they intend to invade
Last time I checked, the USA were the number one warmonger in the world, sometimes by lying about WMD and going against the vote of the UN.
I'm not defending China, I do think Tiktok is a dictatorship honeypot, but the USA is only good to the USA. A cancer is worst than diabetes, but I still don't think diabetes is a good thing.
And google is only good to google.
I'm in the good graces of neither, being in Europe, and consider both as services that will try to get as much of me as possible when I use them. And the minute our interest are not aligned with theirs, they will bite us.
Fun fact, if you are not a US citizen, you have no 4th amendment rights against seizure of your data. No judge or legal process necessary beyond a blanket executive order.
[deleted]
What? The courts have ruled many many times that the Constitution DOES apply to non-citizens(aside foreign combatants in wartime).
[deleted]
Only within the borders of the United States.
Nitpick: the USA is not good for the USA either.
> Militarily, the US is allied with most EU powers (including France)
Wouldn’t this be an argument for preferring TikTok over YouTube?
There is literally nothing China can do to me as long as I stay firmly in the West. On the other hand, I could very well be sold out by Google to the US government, which could easily have me extradited from the EU.
Wouldn’t this be an argument for preferring TikTok over YouTube?
There is literally nothing China can do to me as long as I stay firmly in the West. On the other hand, I could very well be sold out by Google to the US government, which could easily have me extradited from the EU.
> There is literally nothing China can do to me as long as I stay firmly in the West.
If you use TikTok they can manipulate what you see.
If you use TikTok they can manipulate what you see.
Considering the US education system is already hell bent on turning out communists I don't really see how China could do anything worse.
I mean the trope of colleges turning people into leftist hippie communists is older than my parents.
But K-12 in the US tries to hammer so much “so misleading it might as well be false” pro-America propaganda during exactly the age that kids are generally rebelling against anything authority tells them that’s it’s not all that surprising that during a major economic downturn that’s only benefiting those with capital that people would start to have a distaste for the system that produced this mess.
But K-12 in the US tries to hammer so much “so misleading it might as well be false” pro-America propaganda during exactly the age that kids are generally rebelling against anything authority tells them that’s it’s not all that surprising that during a major economic downturn that’s only benefiting those with capital that people would start to have a distaste for the system that produced this mess.
> that’s only benefiting those with capital
The irony of this is telling. I have to assume you are unvaccinated, and unaware that you are being publicly critical of the government.
The irony of this is telling. I have to assume you are unvaccinated, and unaware that you are being publicly critical of the government.
There’s something wild about being so liberal that people assume you’re conservative. I’m very much vaccinated and also upset that our government left the out most vulnerable people with $1400 and a thumbs up, fucked over out healthcare workers, pushed people back to work rather than give any meaningful assistance and put everyone at risk, did basically nothing to control housing costs all while the stock market posted record returns for already wealthy capital holders.
Once you get far left or right enough there's not much difference for those in the middle. Both sides want to destroy their way of life.
I didn’t assume you were conservative.
I just think it’s weird to attribute the things you are complaining about to ‘capitalism’, and that if you are going to make such broad statements, then it’s weird to claim there are no benefits to those ‘without capital’ when there plainly are.
I happen to also be critical of most of the things you are criticizing. Blaming ‘capitalism’ doesn’t seem to offer anything. The word has become interchangeable with ‘the bogeyman’.
I just think it’s weird to attribute the things you are complaining about to ‘capitalism’, and that if you are going to make such broad statements, then it’s weird to claim there are no benefits to those ‘without capital’ when there plainly are.
I happen to also be critical of most of the things you are criticizing. Blaming ‘capitalism’ doesn’t seem to offer anything. The word has become interchangeable with ‘the bogeyman’.
In a lot of ways I don’t think that’s a totally unfair assessment. But “fuck capitalism” has become somewhat of a rallying phrase for people who are upset at a number of economic problems and their non-solutions that are largely underpinned by the mostly individualistic but fundamentally capitalist way of thinking that is both wildly held in the US in general but specifically held among those in power who are personally unaffected by the systems they create.
> underpinned by the mostly individualistic but fundamentally capitalist way of thinking that is both wildly held in the US in general but specifically held among those in power who are personally unaffected by the systems they create
I largely disagree with the first half of this, and agree with the second half. I think ‘individualism’ is a chimera and not a cause.
I do agree that Americans are generally more suspicious of the state than people in most other countries, but that’s to be expected given both the founding and history of the country, and the experiences of minorities.
On the other hand, the disconnectedness of those in power and the lack of solutions is definitely evident.
My dislike of ‘anti-capitalism’ is that is just a complaint, but without any solutions.
I largely disagree with the first half of this, and agree with the second half. I think ‘individualism’ is a chimera and not a cause.
I do agree that Americans are generally more suspicious of the state than people in most other countries, but that’s to be expected given both the founding and history of the country, and the experiences of minorities.
On the other hand, the disconnectedness of those in power and the lack of solutions is definitely evident.
My dislike of ‘anti-capitalism’ is that is just a complaint, but without any solutions.
I mean if you want to foster anti-america content all you really need to do is leave TikTok alone. It’s my generation’s version of Tumblr only on a bigger scale. You don’t really need manipulation when the user-base skews young, activist, and unironically anti-capitalist.
Which I think is awesome personally but I get how some people will see all of that as huge red flags.
Which I think is awesome personally but I get how some people will see all of that as huge red flags.
> You don’t really need manipulation when the user-base skews young, activist, and unironically anti-capitalist.
You don’t think that is a result of manipulation?
You don’t think that is a result of manipulation?
> There is literally nothing China can do to me as long as I stay firmly in the West.
There are numerous Uyghurs in the West who would disagree with your assessment given the harassments they have had to endure. This will only become worse as China continues to become more powerful.
There are numerous Uyghurs in the West who would disagree with your assessment given the harassments they have had to endure. This will only become worse as China continues to become more powerful.
> the CCP is still putting Muslims in concentration camps
I don't want to enter this debate because it detracts from the main point, but the US has been putting Latino people in concentration camps.
As a fellow frenchman I can only agree with what was said before: TikTok is bad, but Youtube isn't much better.
I don't want to enter this debate because it detracts from the main point, but the US has been putting Latino people in concentration camps.
As a fellow frenchman I can only agree with what was said before: TikTok is bad, but Youtube isn't much better.
>I don't want to enter this debate because it detracts from the main point, but the US has been putting Latino people in concentration camps.
This is a bad faith comparison
This is a bad faith comparison
They are afterall bad hombres, especially the children.
Lets not forget the war time concentration camps in the US, or the torture camps, or the rendition programme, or gitmo.
But yes, tiktok is trash. But it is the trash that the people love.
Lets not forget the war time concentration camps in the US, or the torture camps, or the rendition programme, or gitmo.
But yes, tiktok is trash. But it is the trash that the people love.
Explaining these to the average person makes you seem like a conspiracy nut case.
No of some of the same people will go on about the illuminati controlling everything. But you talk specific companies or policies and you get an eye roll.
> people will go on about the illuminati controlling everything
But we do. :)
But we do. :)
Yep, but tiktok is chinese, youtube is american, so by definition tiktok bad, youtube good.
All the "data gathering" mentioned in all the FUD around tiktok in recent years is done by google/facebook too, and noone mentiones it at all.
All the "data gathering" mentioned in all the FUD around tiktok in recent years is done by google/facebook too, and noone mentiones it at all.
> We're giving a Chinese company the ability to control the content consumption, and therefore beliefs and knowledge, of entire countries.
Note that non american feel the same way about google, netflix, amazon &co
Note that non american feel the same way about google, netflix, amazon &co
Just a single point, but as a non american, I can say that I do not feel "the same way" exactly. Its close, in that I think, the discussion in the EU on Huaweis network equipment in telco nets, is a little bit overheated and I'd like to see the same requirements to be enacted on, for example, CISCO, whos security track record is ... not that good?
But I still think that 'chinese company owning a majority of internet video traffic' is WAY more scary than 'US company owning a majority of internet traffic'. Maybe thats just bias, maybe not.
But yes, I think there should be more relevant non-US big IT players to add more variety. But for a lot of reasons, the EU, and especially germany, just does not cut it in regard of IT expertise anymore. I am not saying this from a perspective of "disappointed patriotism" or something like that. Its more about having more choice would make thinks more interessting.
But on the other hand: more choice makes thinks like movie streaming less attractive. I do not want to have to sign with Netflix, Amazon, Disney, HBO, Apple TV AND Maxdome.
I guess we still cannot have the cake, and eat it, too.
But I still think that 'chinese company owning a majority of internet video traffic' is WAY more scary than 'US company owning a majority of internet traffic'. Maybe thats just bias, maybe not.
But yes, I think there should be more relevant non-US big IT players to add more variety. But for a lot of reasons, the EU, and especially germany, just does not cut it in regard of IT expertise anymore. I am not saying this from a perspective of "disappointed patriotism" or something like that. Its more about having more choice would make thinks more interessting.
But on the other hand: more choice makes thinks like movie streaming less attractive. I do not want to have to sign with Netflix, Amazon, Disney, HBO, Apple TV AND Maxdome.
I guess we still cannot have the cake, and eat it, too.
> Maybe thats just bias, maybe not
No maybe about it, it is.
No maybe about it, it is.
I agree with you, China is a nation run by a single dictator that is imprisoning and torturing millions of people without trials or even letting anyone else know.
The USA has its problems, but they are all extremely publicized compared to the secret nightmare going on in China.
I have noticed that there are armies of Chinese and Russian shill accounts on HN now that brigade with "whataboutisms" whenever criticism of Putin or Jinping's dictatorships arise.
The USA has its problems, but they are all extremely publicized compared to the secret nightmare going on in China.
I have noticed that there are armies of Chinese and Russian shill accounts on HN now that brigade with "whataboutisms" whenever criticism of Putin or Jinping's dictatorships arise.
I feel that way about Google, Netflix, and Amazon. I’m an American…
As a non american I don't feel the same way. Amazon, Google, etc just want to make money. TikTok is (like all companies in China) an extension of the Chinese state, a state that is currently engaging in genocide.
Amazon and Google are extensions of the USG when dealing with foreign nationals. You can assume that 100% of the relevant data is accessible to US agencies.
Fair. Does Google manipulate their results to make Bidens politics look better than they are? Do they permit criticism of the USA?
And they should.
Nope
How is that different than Facebook? We have known for Facebook shady data policies for 10 years, and that has never prevented people from using it, why do you think suddenly people would care more when it comes to TikTok?
Facebook wants your data to sell higher priced targeted ads.
Tiktok gives your data to China. I don't know what they are doing with it but they are not using it for better targetted ads. I guess when they request permission for my phone contacts, clipboard content, private photos at least I know they aren't using it for ads.
Tiktok gives your data to China. I don't know what they are doing with it but they are not using it for better targetted ads. I guess when they request permission for my phone contacts, clipboard content, private photos at least I know they aren't using it for ads.
jpomykala(5)
As a European: this is extremely funny. America has been doing this for years. Apparently only when it's not America doing these things it becomes a problem?
America is an ally, if not formally then the shared westernism. China is most definitely not.
America being an ally only really makes them more dangerous to me as an individual. If I were in trouble with the US government there is a high likelihood my own government would extradite me. There's very little chance of that with the Chinese government, and the chances are they wouldn't be interested in the first place*
* Not that the US would be interested in me personally either. But they do take an interest in citizens from other countries.
* Not that the US would be interested in me personally either. But they do take an interest in citizens from other countries.
Well, you could certainly see why the situation changes when the service is controlled by an adversarial government. At least the US services are only clandestinely influenced by the US government. TikTok is practically a Trojan horse
US services operate with the full cooperation of Google and Amazon, and the ability to compel them however they want for foreigners otherwise.
Kinda. Many Americans run around with a notion of some kind of noble entrepreneur who provides the bounty of endless choice in consumer goods, even if it's a corporation. The fact that many different brands come from the same factory tends to be overlooked. Americans are also unique in their tolerance for constant advertising where other cultures would consider it gauche and intrusive.
TikTok is imo goddamn scary. It is explicitly set up to hook people with gamification techniques, showering likes on new users so they come back for more. Only the subject matter is often politics, activism and intertribal warfare.
TikTok is imo goddamn scary. It is explicitly set up to hook people with gamification techniques, showering likes on new users so they come back for more. Only the subject matter is often politics, activism and intertribal warfare.
I don't see how it is any worse than the many western social media apps and games that use the same addiction inducing techniques
It's no different to most other social networks that commit mass abuse of user data and track everyone, everywhere.
Being a US-based company doesn't make this any better, just look at Facebook.
The only people who worry are people on HN. Most other people aren't aware of what's going on, or just don't care.
Being a US-based company doesn't make this any better, just look at Facebook.
The only people who worry are people on HN. Most other people aren't aware of what's going on, or just don't care.
And the state department.
Letting that on your phone is allowing your contacts, photos and text messages to be read.
Same goes with facebook. But facebook will try to profit off of your data. Tiktok data goes to China. I don't know what they are doing with it..
Letting that on your phone is allowing your contacts, photos and text messages to be read.
Same goes with facebook. But facebook will try to profit off of your data. Tiktok data goes to China. I don't know what they are doing with it..
> But facebook will try to profit off of your data. Tiktok data goes to China. I don't know what they are doing with it..
FB data also goes to the US government. I don't know what they are doing with it..
FB data also goes to the US government. I don't know what they are doing with it..
The US want to take all my money and put me in jail. I like my freedom.
China want to blackmail me to do their bidding. I dont actually have much shame, so probably wont work so good.
There are days where I think the lesser of two evils when it comes to invading my privacy might be the regime whos jurisdiction I am not, and likely never will be present in.
China want to blackmail me to do their bidding. I dont actually have much shame, so probably wont work so good.
There are days where I think the lesser of two evils when it comes to invading my privacy might be the regime whos jurisdiction I am not, and likely never will be present in.
The US government is monitoring traffic at all major points including undersea cables. The US reasons are complex ranging from terrorism to cyberwar faire to unknown reasons.
One reason China does it to monitor and control their own people. Speaking out against China in the west will often put family in China at risk and any business interests. Monitoring journalist, tracking western movement, cyberwar faire, are all reasons.
One reason China does it to monitor and control their own people. Speaking out against China in the west will often put family in China at risk and any business interests. Monitoring journalist, tracking western movement, cyberwar faire, are all reasons.
Not if you don't give itemizing l permission for it to access those things (and it works fine without)
Where does it read text messages?
Where does it read text messages?
Being a US company specifically doesn't make it better, but being a Chinese company absolutely makes it worse.
I wouldn't be nearly as worried if Tiktok were owned by Italy or Germany or France. But China, with it'a ongoing genocide of Muslims and totalitarian oppression, yeah that is worse than Netflix selling your data to advertisers.
I wouldn't be nearly as worried if Tiktok were owned by Italy or Germany or France. But China, with it'a ongoing genocide of Muslims and totalitarian oppression, yeah that is worse than Netflix selling your data to advertisers.
TikTok algorithm is like a tamgotchi with short memory. The echo chamber is actual much less than on other systems, or at least this is my actual understanding.
I've been working on AI and ML for 20+y now, I'm always interested is testing the systems out there from the user side.
Overall, I've been surprised by TikTok, as I did find it very enjoyable actually, and easily 'trainable'.
Why does YouTube not change their algorithim. It is clearly sub tier to tik tok, they have the data and skill set to provide new and entertaining videos but the recommended feed has been so stale and stagnant for a few years, constantly pushing videos you’ve seen or ones you clearly don’t want to watch. How much of tik tok’s success do you think is their algorithim for recommending content. I heard from numerous people how addicting it is and how every video is different. Do you think the short videos give more instant gratification which has a
Large effect? I use YouTube shorts and for the most part it is really entertaining
Yea, It may be as simple as the length. There's a vastly higher frequency of samples when every video is twenty seconds long.
It's also clearly designed around a different experience, a constant consume-or-scroll feed as popularized by Instagram. YouTube shorts also has this, but regular YouTube clearly doesn't, given that there's just enough latency between video skips that it feels like the algorithm is "making mistakes" at a much lower number of skips.
It's also clearly designed around a different experience, a constant consume-or-scroll feed as popularized by Instagram. YouTube shorts also has this, but regular YouTube clearly doesn't, given that there's just enough latency between video skips that it feels like the algorithm is "making mistakes" at a much lower number of skips.
Exactly right. More data beats better algorithms every time. Because YouTube is (foolishly IMO) trying to turn itself into television, they've pursued 10+ minute videos even when there's only ~30 seconds of content. Tiktok's success is well deserved.
YouTube's algorithm used to be better, they neutered it at some point after all the articles about "YouTube Radicalization" dropped. Feels like it's heavily moderated or throttled on what can bubble up now, which probably results in less novel content and novel content is where TikTok excels.
I wonder about the 'other' viewers on youtube, the matching to 'you might also like' content is terrible. At best I get a lot of the same channel, or videos containing the same title, or worse still the celebrity garbage that is popular in the country at the time.
The algo also doesnt seem to get the hint - it suggests a video over and over again, an no matter how many times I dont ever watch a video on X channel or on Y subject, it keeps on trying.
While I am complaining, Netflix algo is getting worse too. Stop reccomending the movie I watched earlier in the week, I watched it. I clicked thumbs down on it. I dont want to waste another 90 minutes on it.
The algo also doesnt seem to get the hint - it suggests a video over and over again, an no matter how many times I dont ever watch a video on X channel or on Y subject, it keeps on trying.
While I am complaining, Netflix algo is getting worse too. Stop reccomending the movie I watched earlier in the week, I watched it. I clicked thumbs down on it. I dont want to waste another 90 minutes on it.
The depressing reality is that your average person on the street couldn't care less. I've tried bringing it up to friends and family in the least evangelical way I can, and the most common response is that they simply don't care about their privacy; to them the content on the platform is worth dealing with an app that's accused of malicious practices and "so what if some company in China gets my data, I'm not planning on going to China". Talking about things that are well known in the tech industry to people without that background has a nasty habit of making you look like a conspiracy theorist to Johnny Random.
They may not be going to China, but China is coming over.
The obvious answer is that most people just want to watch funny and entertaining videos, and don't care about some externalities which don't even seem real to them.
> Hasn't TikTok been proven malicious in it's excessive user tracking and data theft?
Unless you've read some new news I haven't, not any more than Google (YouTube) or Facebook have. Why is TikTok different?
Unless you've read some new news I haven't, not any more than Google (YouTube) or Facebook have. Why is TikTok different?
I think the reason people use it is the reason why people still use dating apps. Choice is infinite. Every time you swipe, is a new person, a new video, a new hit of dopamine. An insatiable appetite for something new. It is also power. With the dating apps it’s the power to dismiss someone with a swipe, no need to waste time looking at their profile. In TikTok there are no YouTube ads, and you can swipe quickly past videos that don’t spike interest (dopamine).
>Hasn't TikTok been proven malicious in it's excessive user tracking and data theft?
Try watching this video on Youtube without giving Google your passport or credit card info. I found it impossible, even with youtube-dl.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIhmoyoOR1s
Try watching this video on Youtube without giving Google your passport or credit card info. I found it impossible, even with youtube-dl.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIhmoyoOR1s
It would be an issue if Youtube's doing it for their own benefit, but they are just honoring Nintendo's request to not show that content to minors, so Youtube isn't at fault here.
Sadly, only HN users care about this kind of stuff
> and therefore beliefs and knowledge, of entire countries
As opposed to whomever controls Facebook/Google?
The ship has sailed. And with upcoming decentralized web technologies that ship will cross the point of no return.
As opposed to whomever controls Facebook/Google?
The ship has sailed. And with upcoming decentralized web technologies that ship will cross the point of no return.
Perhaps the fact that a Chinese company has grown so powerful will finally spur the Congress to a break up all digital oligarchs.
As a person who is hopelessly addicted to refreshing feeds I can say that TikTok is the first app in 10 years that replaced reddit - my previous digital drug of choice. Their algo is just to good. People without rich and fulfilling lives don't stand a chance.
Nope, you're not going crazy. But the thing is every other social media company does the same thing. So railing against tiktok was ineffective because everyone already accepts this. And I was one of the people early on (even before the merger) talking about it.
Even the "china controls it" part isn't persuasive because, I mean, what isn't china influencing these days? And TBH I don't give a shit if it's Chinese or American powers collecting my information, I don't want either of them doing it. And consider that these American corporations influence other nations in the same way China may influence America and they accept it -- of course Americans would accept it too.
My word to people who hate TikTok's privacy invading tech and practices is to lobby to pass a sweeping privacy law or shut up, basically. But that would mean wrecking a huge part of the parasitic tech industry so it's not going to happen.
Money > ethics.
Even the "china controls it" part isn't persuasive because, I mean, what isn't china influencing these days? And TBH I don't give a shit if it's Chinese or American powers collecting my information, I don't want either of them doing it. And consider that these American corporations influence other nations in the same way China may influence America and they accept it -- of course Americans would accept it too.
My word to people who hate TikTok's privacy invading tech and practices is to lobby to pass a sweeping privacy law or shut up, basically. But that would mean wrecking a huge part of the parasitic tech industry so it's not going to happen.
Money > ethics.
Domestic companies like Facebook and Google are already doing all the censorship, manipulation, and tracking I'd expect from the Chinese. Why should I care at this point?
> Hasn't TikTok been proven malicious in it's excessive user tracking and data theft?
Even if you use the website?
Even if you use the website?
From a non-us perspective it isn't really that different.
who cares about china, isn't this not the same for US companies? why the constant obsession with china?
this just complete fear mongering, let the kids play on it.
this just complete fear mongering, let the kids play on it.
finfinfin(4)
We'll see how you feel when China takes over the world and your kids are only allowed to play video games 8pm-9pm on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday... unless you're Muslim in which case all of you can work in a labor camp with no rights or technology.
OK, but irrelevant.
What has this got to do with TikTok?
What has this got to do with TikTok?
[deleted]
It turns out most people are actually sheeple.
kids use it
I stepped back from a group chat because the fellows in it swore by “Mental Health TikTok,” where therapists give mental health advice. This is concerning to me.
Beyond that, the data collection and the way it mixes young-but-of-age mildly sexual content with underage guys imitating them makes me stay far away. I enjoyed the handsome men in various states of undress but couldn’t find a way to make the app not veer into underage content, no matter how many times I told it what I liked. Disturbing.
Beyond that, the data collection and the way it mixes young-but-of-age mildly sexual content with underage guys imitating them makes me stay far away. I enjoyed the handsome men in various states of undress but couldn’t find a way to make the app not veer into underage content, no matter how many times I told it what I liked. Disturbing.
> I stepped back from a group chat because the fellows in it swore by “Mental Health TikTok,” where therapists give mental health advice. This is concerning to me
What's concerning about this? I don't mean this rhetorically: I'm genuinely curious, as I've heard people say similar things recently.
It seems to me that, like metabolic health, there's a pretty large body of basic mental health advice that's safe and salutary, and that doesn't displace heavy-duty mental Healthcare for those who need it (in the same way that healthy recipe tips don't displace insulin shots).
What's concerning about this? I don't mean this rhetorically: I'm genuinely curious, as I've heard people say similar things recently.
It seems to me that, like metabolic health, there's a pretty large body of basic mental health advice that's safe and salutary, and that doesn't displace heavy-duty mental Healthcare for those who need it (in the same way that healthy recipe tips don't displace insulin shots).
It was apparent in the group chat I was in that these guys were replacing heavy-duty mental healthcare with tips provided by unverified sources on TikTok. A chat where we went to vent about our frustrations turned into peer-to-peer mental health diagnosis informed by these TikTok doctors, telephoned through these regular, non-doctor participants.
It struck me as the kind of thing that leads people to, for example, ingeste chloroquine phosphate [0] on the advice of a celebrity.
[0]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/24/coronavirus-cu...
It struck me as the kind of thing that leads people to, for example, ingeste chloroquine phosphate [0] on the advice of a celebrity.
[0]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/24/coronavirus-cu...
> It was apparent in the group chat I was in that these guys were replacing heavy-duty mental healthcare with tips provided by unverified sources on TikTok
Gotcha, thanks for clarifying!
Gotcha, thanks for clarifying!
Mental health discussions and advice are traditionally given under strong privacy guarantees
You've mixed together two-way (discussion) and one-way (advice) mental health communication. Your point only applies to discussion, and the tiktok example only involves advice.
Concretely, what privacy concern do you see in watching a video with mental health tips? Do you think this privacy concern similarly extends to reading a Wikipedia article on (eg) CBT techniques?
Or am I misunderstanding, and "Mental health tiktok" involves users describing their mental health issues in videos that they post, and a back-and-forth with those who are claiming to "treat" them?
Concretely, what privacy concern do you see in watching a video with mental health tips? Do you think this privacy concern similarly extends to reading a Wikipedia article on (eg) CBT techniques?
Or am I misunderstanding, and "Mental health tiktok" involves users describing their mental health issues in videos that they post, and a back-and-forth with those who are claiming to "treat" them?
I'd trust Wikimedia's privacy policy a hell of a lot more than I'd trust TikTok's.
Also, the English Wikipedia article on cognitive behavioural therapy cites Cochrane reviews, psych textbooks and a whole volley of journal articles from prestigious journals like the Lancet and the Journal of the American Medical Association etc. describing clinical trial results, plus guidance from the UK's National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence.
Presumably, the TikTok version makes up for this by having a better dance routine.
Also, the English Wikipedia article on cognitive behavioural therapy cites Cochrane reviews, psych textbooks and a whole volley of journal articles from prestigious journals like the Lancet and the Journal of the American Medical Association etc. describing clinical trial results, plus guidance from the UK's National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence.
Presumably, the TikTok version makes up for this by having a better dance routine.
> I'd trust Wikimedia's privacy policy a hell of a lot more than I'd trust TikTok's
Yes, of course. I wasn't clear, but I was referring to going through a search engine, not going directly to Wikipedia.
> Presumably, the TikTok version makes up for this by having a better dance routine.
I'm afraid you've completely misunderstood what this subthread is about. The _quality_ of medical information and the privacy concerns involved in finding it (whether through Google or via tiktok's algorithm) are completely different topics. To be honest, I can't imagine how anyone could read these comments and come away thinking any comparison was being made (let alone equivalence being drawn) between quality vs privacy concerns.
Yes, of course. I wasn't clear, but I was referring to going through a search engine, not going directly to Wikipedia.
> Presumably, the TikTok version makes up for this by having a better dance routine.
I'm afraid you've completely misunderstood what this subthread is about. The _quality_ of medical information and the privacy concerns involved in finding it (whether through Google or via tiktok's algorithm) are completely different topics. To be honest, I can't imagine how anyone could read these comments and come away thinking any comparison was being made (let alone equivalence being drawn) between quality vs privacy concerns.
I was being snarky about the quality of the information, but the privacy issue is the important one.
If the key variable is the search engine, then, yes, you probably don't want to be feeding details of your possible mental health problems into Google. Maybe DuckDuckGo would be preferable. Once you've put your symptoms or diagnosis into a search engine, where you end up is going to likely not be the main issue. If you type, say, "autism spectrum disorder" into Google, Google will make certain assumptions about you regardless of whether you end up clicking on a Wikipedia link, an NHS.uk link, some academic paper on bioRxiv, or a TikTok video with someone describing their autism diagnosis.
If the key variable is the search engine, then, yes, you probably don't want to be feeding details of your possible mental health problems into Google. Maybe DuckDuckGo would be preferable. Once you've put your symptoms or diagnosis into a search engine, where you end up is going to likely not be the main issue. If you type, say, "autism spectrum disorder" into Google, Google will make certain assumptions about you regardless of whether you end up clicking on a Wikipedia link, an NHS.uk link, some academic paper on bioRxiv, or a TikTok video with someone describing their autism diagnosis.
It’s 2 way. The tracking and profiling algorithms infer a lot by watching people. The viewers might not realize it’s two way though
That's an extremely expansive definition of "two-way", to the point of meaninglessness. If you were to bite this bullet, you'd also preclude the type of extremely basic work to get informed that any patient should be doing when engaging with the healthcare system (including for physical health). Basic research about your health problems doesn't even preclude putting full faith in your doctor and his recommendations; they're helpful in the general case for even understanding conversations with him. And this type of web search provides infinitely more "two-way" loss of privacy than signal from tiktok recommendations.
This is worth elaborating on, since I know HN tends to have a bizarre fantasy conception of the medical system where patients arent supposed to understand anything that's happening. I have to wonder if the HNers contributing to this conception have ever engaged with the medical system, or if they have, I have to pity those that they're responsible for.
There are plenty of doctors in my family, and I've been responsible for managing both chronic and severe acute health issues for family members. Every single one of the doctors I've been in contact with would be shocked by the notion that patients shouldn't be informing thenselves at a basic level. This goes quadruply for basic preventive measures like nutrition, exercise, or basic mental health practices: there's a reason that "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".
This is worth elaborating on, since I know HN tends to have a bizarre fantasy conception of the medical system where patients arent supposed to understand anything that's happening. I have to wonder if the HNers contributing to this conception have ever engaged with the medical system, or if they have, I have to pity those that they're responsible for.
There are plenty of doctors in my family, and I've been responsible for managing both chronic and severe acute health issues for family members. Every single one of the doctors I've been in contact with would be shocked by the notion that patients shouldn't be informing thenselves at a basic level. This goes quadruply for basic preventive measures like nutrition, exercise, or basic mental health practices: there's a reason that "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".
I don’t think you want mental health information going where it could be used against you.
Eg,
> Cheng believes the website that doxed him by publishing his personal information online was started by pro-Beijing supporters in Hong Kong.
> “I feel fear,” he admitted. His family, too, was scared and told him not to walk home alone anymore. But part of Cheng remains defiant as he considers the doxing website a component of a larger campaign to incite fear in protesters as mass demonstrations continue into their third month.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/rosalindadams/hong-kong...
https://mashable.com/article/doj-accuses-zoom-employee-china...
Eg,
> Cheng believes the website that doxed him by publishing his personal information online was started by pro-Beijing supporters in Hong Kong.
> “I feel fear,” he admitted. His family, too, was scared and told him not to walk home alone anymore. But part of Cheng remains defiant as he considers the doxing website a component of a larger campaign to incite fear in protesters as mass demonstrations continue into their third month.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/rosalindadams/hong-kong...
https://mashable.com/article/doj-accuses-zoom-employee-china...
The parent comment clarified in response to my original question that they were referring to "heavy duty" mental health advice, of serious issues.
The premise of my pushing back against privacy concerns was mental health advice of the basic, fundamental kind: mindfulness, productive thought patterns, healthy work habits, sleep hygiene, etc etc etc.
Even taking for granted that tiktok's access to this information is scarier than eg Google's, the signal they can glean from this type of usage is little more than "I get anxious sometimes", not things like "I have bipolar disorder". I don't think it's controversial at all to say that getting advice for serious mental disorders via social network isn't a good idea for multiple reasons (again, this is why I clarified with the OP of the story what sort of mental health advice they were seeking).
To make it clear by analogy: one maintains their physical health through a million 24/7 day-to-day decisions, and nobody would blink twice at getting information about eg yoga or healthy recipes from YouTube or other non-medical sources. OTOH, trying to treat your pneumonia or MS via YouTube or tiktok would be an obvious disaster. Similarly, there are a million and one day-to-day actions one takes to maintain their mental health, eg mindfulness or other basic CBT techniques. Researching these independently is not just harmless, it's what people _should_ be doing, regardless of whether they're also seeking treatment (and the privacy concerns are similarly minimal). Again in stark contrast, serious mental health issues shouldn't be treated via casual research.
The premise of my pushing back against privacy concerns was mental health advice of the basic, fundamental kind: mindfulness, productive thought patterns, healthy work habits, sleep hygiene, etc etc etc.
Even taking for granted that tiktok's access to this information is scarier than eg Google's, the signal they can glean from this type of usage is little more than "I get anxious sometimes", not things like "I have bipolar disorder". I don't think it's controversial at all to say that getting advice for serious mental disorders via social network isn't a good idea for multiple reasons (again, this is why I clarified with the OP of the story what sort of mental health advice they were seeking).
To make it clear by analogy: one maintains their physical health through a million 24/7 day-to-day decisions, and nobody would blink twice at getting information about eg yoga or healthy recipes from YouTube or other non-medical sources. OTOH, trying to treat your pneumonia or MS via YouTube or tiktok would be an obvious disaster. Similarly, there are a million and one day-to-day actions one takes to maintain their mental health, eg mindfulness or other basic CBT techniques. Researching these independently is not just harmless, it's what people _should_ be doing, regardless of whether they're also seeking treatment (and the privacy concerns are similarly minimal). Again in stark contrast, serious mental health issues shouldn't be treated via casual research.
Tok Tok is just YouTube but with the opaqueness turned up to 11. Most of the people who use YouTube without worry think Tik Tok is an improvement.
[deleted]
Pretty clear from several comments in this thread that Non-US citizens have a hard time distinguishing the risk-levels of a US-centric vs a China-centric world. Particularly insulting to see the French comments. Ever wondered what Europe would be looking like today if it was China and USSR that ended up defeating the Nazis?
There was a man who tried to force TikTok out of the US or out of Chinese control…
Let’s be honest about it: the former president was trying to reward Larry Ellison for his support, that’s all it was and that’s why it didn’t happen.
Actually it did happen, and was reversed this year.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/09/biden-revokes-and-replaces-t...
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/09/biden-revokes-and-replaces-t...
15 seconds is the attention span teachers are going to have to compete with and try to teach. YouTube wasn’t mindless and short enough.
I believe it. Nowadays, I watch perhaps 1-2 videos a day on Youtube. The addictive endless scrolling of content on Tiktok means I'm spending on average an hour a day.
Sounds like it is time to add TikTok to you blocklist and get back an hour a day. Add the following to whatever filter/blocklist you use and rejoice in all that regained freedom:
# TikTok
abtest-va-tiktok.byteoversea.com
api16-core-c-alisg.tiktokv.com
api16-core-c-useast1a.tiktokv.com
api16-core-c-useast2a.tiktokv.com
api16-core-va.tiktokv.com
api16-normal-c-alisg.tiktokv.com
api16-normal-c-useast1a.tiktokv.com
api16-normal-c-useast2a.tiktokv.com
api16-va.tiktokv.com
api19-core-c-useast1a.tiktokv.com
api19-core-c-useast2a.tiktokv.com
api19-core-va.tiktokv.com
api19-normal-c-useast1a.tiktokv.com
api19-normal-c-useast2a.tiktokv.com
api19-va.tiktokv.com
api21-core-c-alisg.tiktokv.com
api21-h2-eagle.tiktokv.com
api21-h2.tiktokv.com
api21-normal-c-alisg.tiktokv.com
api21-va.tiktokv.com
api22-core-c-alisg.tiktokv.com
api22-core-c-useast1a.tiktokv.com
api22-core-c-useast2a.tiktokv.com
api22-normal-c-alisg.tiktokv.com
api22-normal-c-useast1a.tiktokv.com
api22-normal-c-useast2a.tiktokv.com
api30-h2-eagle.tiktokv.com
api30-h2.tiktokv.com
api-h2-eagle.tiktokv.com
api-h2.tiktokv.com
api-t2.tiktokv.com
api.tiktokv.com
api-va.tiktokv.com
dm16-alisg.tiktokv.com
dm16-useast1a.tiktokv.com
frontier-va.tiktokv.com
gecko16-normal-c-useast1a.tiktokv.com
i.byteoversea.com
ichannel.musical.ly
ichannel-va.tiktokv.com
imapi-16.tiktokv.com
imapi-mu.isnssdk.com
im-va.tiktokv.com
log16-normal-c-useast1a.tiktokv.com
log.byteoversea.com
log-va.tiktokv.com
mon.tiktokv.com
mon-va.tiktokv.com
muscdn.com
musical.ly
p16-tiktokcdn-com.akamaized.net
p16-tiktok-sg.ibyteimg.com
p16-tiktok-va.ibyteimg.com
pull-cmaf-f16-ab.tiktokcdn.com
pull-cmaf-f16.tiktokcdn.com
pull-cmaf-f5.tiktokcdn.com
pull-f5-ab.tiktokcdn.com
pull-f5.tiktokcdn.com
pull-flv-f11-ab.tiktokcdn.com
pull-flv-f11.tiktokcdn.com
pull-flv-f1-ab.tiktokcdn.com
pull-flv-f1.tiktokcdn.com
pull-flv-l11.tiktokcdn.com
pull-flv-l1.tiktokcdn.com
pull-hls-f11-ab.tiktokcdn.com
pull-hls-f11.tiktokcdn.com
pull-hls-f1-ab.tiktokcdn.com
pull-hls-f1.tiktokcdn.com
pull-hls-f5-ab.tiktokcdn.com
pull-hls-f5.tiktokcdn.com
pull-hls-l11.tiktokcdn.com
pull-hls-l1.tiktokcdn.com
pull-hls-q5.tiktokcdn.com
pull-hls-w5.tiktokcdn.com
pull-q5.tiktokcdn.com
pull-rtmp-f11-ab.tiktokcdn.com
pull-rtmp-f11.tiktokcdn.com
pull-rtmp-f1-ab.tiktokcdn.com
pull-rtmp-f1.tiktokcdn.com
pull-rtmp-l11.tiktokcdn.com
pull-rtmp-l1.tiktokcdn.com
pull-w5.tiktokcdn.com
tiktokcdn.com
tiktokcdn.com.c.worldfcdn.com
tiktokcdn.com.wsdvs.com
tiktokcdn.liveplay.myqcloud.com
tiktok.com
tiktok.com.c.footprint.net
tiktokv.com
webcast16-normal-c-useast1a.tiktokv.com
xlog-va.tiktokv.com
# /TikTok
# TikTok
(\.|^)tiktok\.com$
(\.|^)tiktokcdn\.com$
(\.|^)tiktokv\.com$
muscdn.com
musical.ly
# /TikTok[deleted]
TikTok has two advantages - first, an order more user data to refine it's feed algorithm and second a format that lowers the bar for content creation which allows for super niche content to be viable. The combination enables a feed that resonates.
Their recommendation algorithm is reportedly the envy of many other platforms. I heard that was pretty much what was being bid for at the time offers started floating around.
TikTok always gets a zero or 1 on each video, whereas FB only get interactions for a minority of units. This makes it a lot easier to train better models.
I can't wait for Google to make their own knock-off, do it in 4 different ways, kill them all off, do it another 3 times at the same time, and then kill those off too.
In the meanwhile they'll have permanently degraded some part of their core service offerings chasing this, maybe putting 10 second videos in place of every street view shot in google maps, or making search favor short video content or some nonsense.
In the meanwhile they'll have permanently degraded some part of their core service offerings chasing this, maybe putting 10 second videos in place of every street view shot in google maps, or making search favor short video content or some nonsense.
However, YouTube retains the top spot for overall time spent - not per user - as it has many more users overall.
Burying the lede here BBC...
Burying the lede here BBC...
It's not a great metric by itself. There are two ways that "average watch time" can increase: users becoming more engaged, and less-engaged users dropping out of the app. It's a concern if it means that TikTok is becoming a youth-only app, for example.
TikTok feels so incredibly fake. I know that a lot of that same fake content is available on YouTube, but on YouTube, I can subscribe to creators that do real things or offer substantial and interesting critiques. TikTok and Facebook video feel like broadcast TV - highly over-dramatized and over-hyped. Again, I know the same is available on YT, but I can also use it my way.
It really isn't. I get only normal people on my tiktok, but I also only follow normal people and tend to "not interested" all checkmarked accounts when they show up.
Interesting. My FYP is all weirdos. And I like it that way!
Hmm maybe it's because I don't have an account. I guess it's the default feed syndrome.
TikTok "ForYou" algorithm is very very impressive in its recommendations. 2 people might have very different experiences with TikTok.
So if you start using with some regularity, even if you don't press like in anything it will figure out what you like and what you don't. I am very curious about how it measures content engagement.
View length. If I watch a whole video then that's positive signal between me and that video (no matter if I actually like the content or not). Netflix gets that as well. I can say I like history documentaries, but Netflix knows I really use their service to watch trashy reality TV shows in the middle of the night - and then they use that information to choose what sort of shows to produce.
I'm glad someone else feels it.
I gave it a shot, and once I got the algorithm to recognize me... it was addictive, but fake as fuck. Nothing really felt like it had love in it. And as much as I tried to push the algorithm towards educational content that actually taught me something new, it could only really show me silly "life hacks" that were clever, but I'll probably never use.
I gave it a shot, and once I got the algorithm to recognize me... it was addictive, but fake as fuck. Nothing really felt like it had love in it. And as much as I tried to push the algorithm towards educational content that actually taught me something new, it could only really show me silly "life hacks" that were clever, but I'll probably never use.
Fake, refined, optimized, or over-produced.. it's all the same thing really.
With television, there are[were] a limited number of channels. Airtime was a scarce resource, and making a TV show cost money so the companies funding it wanted to make sure they got the best bang for their buck. So they had lots of experts tweaking every show to make sure it was juuust right. Little if anything was truly off-the-cusp. Seemingly impromptu conversations on talk shows are scripted and rehearsed. Too much money on the line for anything more casual. When less money is on the line, fewer people are involved and everything can be a lot more casual. Public access television is cruder but feels more authentic. Low budget art films can experiment more than big budget movies. The production of MST3K was casual and crude when it was on public access, but became serious business when they moved to Comedy Central.
A similar dynamic is in play on youtube. When a channel is just some rando uploading videos with little investment and little expectation of financial return, the content is generally cruder and quirkier. When a channel is run by a major corporation with lots of money on the line, lots of people involved in it, and high expectations for the reception, then everything is taken more seriously. Professional cameras, professional lighting, professional editing. It feels more like television because it is more like television.
This same overproduced aesthetic doesn't only come from corporations though; I think the dynamic is in play whenever the content producer has high expectations or aspirations. An individual creator working alone who has aspirations of becoming an "influencer" will put more effort into their content than somebody who has no expectations or aspirations for their content. Their content will become overproduced as a consequence of their lofty aspirations. Maybe tiktok inspires or nurtures these lofty aspirations more than youtube did in the early years.
With television, there are[were] a limited number of channels. Airtime was a scarce resource, and making a TV show cost money so the companies funding it wanted to make sure they got the best bang for their buck. So they had lots of experts tweaking every show to make sure it was juuust right. Little if anything was truly off-the-cusp. Seemingly impromptu conversations on talk shows are scripted and rehearsed. Too much money on the line for anything more casual. When less money is on the line, fewer people are involved and everything can be a lot more casual. Public access television is cruder but feels more authentic. Low budget art films can experiment more than big budget movies. The production of MST3K was casual and crude when it was on public access, but became serious business when they moved to Comedy Central.
A similar dynamic is in play on youtube. When a channel is just some rando uploading videos with little investment and little expectation of financial return, the content is generally cruder and quirkier. When a channel is run by a major corporation with lots of money on the line, lots of people involved in it, and high expectations for the reception, then everything is taken more seriously. Professional cameras, professional lighting, professional editing. It feels more like television because it is more like television.
This same overproduced aesthetic doesn't only come from corporations though; I think the dynamic is in play whenever the content producer has high expectations or aspirations. An individual creator working alone who has aspirations of becoming an "influencer" will put more effort into their content than somebody who has no expectations or aspirations for their content. Their content will become overproduced as a consequence of their lofty aspirations. Maybe tiktok inspires or nurtures these lofty aspirations more than youtube did in the early years.
I feel the exact opposite.
[deleted]
This is why Im actually disappointed by the headline. Affirms people would rather watch a mostly degenerate freak show and blatant materialism than maybe learn something or view something reasonable. And its mostly kids ingesting this. Can you tweak your account to view normal content on tiktok...sure maybe? But thats not what its known for or why its popular. Its to feed you the most extreme content possible and keep your eyes there.
I wish the thing killing Google's golden goose weren't worse than Google.
TikTok does it by pairing Twitter-level burnout-causing engagement juicing with short videos with no option to turn off autoplay.
TikTok does it by pairing Twitter-level burnout-causing engagement juicing with short videos with no option to turn off autoplay.
[deleted]
youtube is my main streaming platform, but i have come to understand the appeal of tiktok. most of the things that are inherent to the tiktok platform, i have to manually do while using youtube.
a couple of examples are manually ignoring click-baits, overly long videos and explanations, multiple parts videos (some are genuine, but most are bad-intentioned), creators and channels i don't care about, etc.
a couple of examples are manually ignoring click-baits, overly long videos and explanations, multiple parts videos (some are genuine, but most are bad-intentioned), creators and channels i don't care about, etc.
People here always say, how TikTok algorithm is "amazing"; while every time I try it, I just see teenagers badly dancing.
This is a valid critique, and why I originally dropped tiktok after a few brief attempts last year. The trick is that you have to do a little work up front to find videos you like (perhaps they've been crossposted to your Facebook feed or something). Early this year I watched and liked videos from about four completely different tiktok creators that I specifically sought out (because I'd seen one of their videos crossposted to FB), and from then on my FYP has been scary-good at serving up stuff that would appeal to me.
ETA: I basically never see teenagers dancing badly. Those videos exist in a different wing of TikTok from the ones I frequent.
ETA: I basically never see teenagers dancing badly. Those videos exist in a different wing of TikTok from the ones I frequent.
that is probably the main point of all of it - generation change. The tiktok is GenZ. The "teenagers badly dancing" is probably a very meaningful content for them.
Yeah, probably because I never watch YT on the app, usually casting via Chromecast to a projector.
YT now has their "shorts" as well that they're desperately trying to push to fill the gap that TikTok (well actually Vine) has created. But their big mistake was only allowing people to watch shorts on mobile...
YT now has their "shorts" as well that they're desperately trying to push to fill the gap that TikTok (well actually Vine) has created. But their big mistake was only allowing people to watch shorts on mobile...
"YouTube still leads TikTok in overall time spent..."
What's the longest length video that TikTok supports? (I don't use it)
What's the longest length video that TikTok supports? (I don't use it)
There are three categories, with slightly different capabilities and interfaces for each, capped at 15s, 60s, and 3m. The short ones were originally the only ones, 60s became available about a year ago (?), and 3m only just over the summer (and I'm not sure they're even available to all creators yet; they had a slow rollout).
15 minutes
Latest info I could find was 5 minutes max [1], where did you see 15?
[1] https://www.socialmediatoday.com/news/tiktoks-testing-even-l...
[1] https://www.socialmediatoday.com/news/tiktoks-testing-even-l...
I was wrong. It's 5 minutes.
Wow. Thank you. I had no idea about that. I had assumed it would be much, much shorter.
Wonder what comparisons are possible for YT as MySpace and TikTok as Facebook? Seems like history is playing itself out again.
The headline is a bit misleading
in the article: "average time per user spent on the apps is higher for TikTok... However, YouTube retains the top spot for overall time spent - not per user - as it has many more users overall."
The average TikTok user spents more time, which is still interesting. Maybe kids just have more time on their hands.
in the article: "average time per user spent on the apps is higher for TikTok... However, YouTube retains the top spot for overall time spent - not per user - as it has many more users overall."
The average TikTok user spents more time, which is still interesting. Maybe kids just have more time on their hands.
I've also spent an unholy amount of time on youtube but never installed the app. Why watch videos on my phone...
Seems to be misunderstanding of TikTok and their algorithms. WSJ did an interesting experiment where they programmed a bot to do take interest in certain videos. the tldr is that it spirals till you get more concentrated, extreme in the type of content. i.e they searched for depressing videos and they get more and more depressing.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/tiktok-algorithm-video-investig...
Where Facebook has a weakpoint is that the content they server you is rather limited. It's a newsfeed of your friends, your friends friends (maybe) and the groups you've joined. Maybe they'll recommend something for you. But most of the time, it's stuff you've more or less opted into.
TikTok on the other hand - has at its disposal videos made by anyone, at anytime in the history of its app. That's a lot of content. I can be on Facebook and be done scrolling in 15 minutes. Same with Instagram, Twitter. TikTok, because it has essentially an infinite amount of assets it can serve...you're there forever, watching short snippets of videos to get a dopamine hit.
Not comparable to other social media, IMHO...more dangerous, regardless of which country owns it.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/tiktok-algorithm-video-investig...
Where Facebook has a weakpoint is that the content they server you is rather limited. It's a newsfeed of your friends, your friends friends (maybe) and the groups you've joined. Maybe they'll recommend something for you. But most of the time, it's stuff you've more or less opted into.
TikTok on the other hand - has at its disposal videos made by anyone, at anytime in the history of its app. That's a lot of content. I can be on Facebook and be done scrolling in 15 minutes. Same with Instagram, Twitter. TikTok, because it has essentially an infinite amount of assets it can serve...you're there forever, watching short snippets of videos to get a dopamine hit.
Not comparable to other social media, IMHO...more dangerous, regardless of which country owns it.
TikTok will surpass both Youtube/Instagram in terms of videos watched, tiktok will also change the way we consume content and how we interact with it.
They also came further in solving comments to videos unlike Youtube where comments section is a toxic wasteland.
Whelp this is not a trend TikTok really is just that addictive. I created an account and its a firehose.
I post short permaculture videos: https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMRfVWm76/
I post short permaculture videos: https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMRfVWm76/
Heads up that your link, vm.tiktok.com is tracked to your user. If I go to that video and share a link, I'll get a different URL. Previous iterations of their web frontend revealed user account info (eg the name used to register the foxhop user, assuming you snagged that username), but it looks like the current frontend no longer shows that.
What should I do instead, not use TikTok or is there a "safer" way to share?
I can't watch TikTok. It's the most obnoxious media I've ever seen. Where is the pause or stop button!? The UX feels like a ride on a rail car without brakes that is run by a coked out conductor.
Overton window friendly mainstream content shaped by PRC censorship is popular because no one likes running across divisive / distressing content that seems to be endgame of western attention merchant approach. Incidentally western platforms follow suit and starts cracking down on undesirables. Going to be interesting once TikTok rolls out massively profitable store fronts / shopping layer comparable to DouYin. Maybe tiktok philosphy will prove that serenity sells more than drama. Censored, curated speech is more marketable to unrestricted free speech.
YouTube is going to blow it with the extremely hamfisted and enraging TikTok clone built into the YouTube app. Being unable to exit a video the same way one would exit a normal YT video is a nightmare, esp since you often won’t know it’s a “short” until it’s too late. There are other dealbreaker bugs in the shorts player. Hope they figure out another way and change course.
Well, who would have thought it would only take a short period of time until tt overtakes yt.
with all that data, they can map public areas and find the best to settle in, that media is influencing public opinion, they can prune messages they disagree with even more so than youtube has ever done.
It’s the new drug
Wow.. this is huge.
Ultimately tiktok is enjoyable and I feel happy after closing it. Western apps by comparison are filled with the culture wars and I open them less and less often. Hn included.
I thought about starting my own TikTok page dedicated to programming so I recorded one about why I still prefer C++ over Rust. While I got decent views for the subject matter, I got roasted by 12-year-olds in the comments section. The top one implied the real reason I preferred C++ was because I’m a boomer, and it was apparently written by someone who likes to upload Roblox music videos. My page has since been made private.
I can take toxic Reddit, HN, and even Twitter comments, and while I found the whole situation hilarious there’s something frightening about opening my whole identity for hordes of anonymous people to judge. There’s a power imbalance that doesn’t seem to bother a subset of Gen Z or the general population who continue uploading content there.
I can take toxic Reddit, HN, and even Twitter comments, and while I found the whole situation hilarious there’s something frightening about opening my whole identity for hordes of anonymous people to judge. There’s a power imbalance that doesn’t seem to bother a subset of Gen Z or the general population who continue uploading content there.
This is intensely offensive. US tech companies are banned, robbed, and defrauded by China. We have no chance to compete with them in China, yet they can come here and freely. Tiktok should be banned.
Thanks to the gross incompetence of Susan Wojcicki and Google abandoning their old motto, "don't be evil".
"abandoning"?
it's still there.
it's still there.
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don't_be_evil
> formerly
> formerly
It's still present in CoC
>https://abc.xyz/investor/other/google-code-of-conduct/
>And remember… don’t be evil, and if you see something that you think isn’t right – speak up!
>https://abc.xyz/investor/other/google-code-of-conduct/
>And remember… don’t be evil, and if you see something that you think isn’t right – speak up!
Exactly what malware do people install to get on "App Annie" panel? Is it the "Phone Guardian VPN: Safe Wifi" garbage I see in the Play Store? People really will install anything. Perhaps the conclusion should be changed to "Clueless dupes who install spyware also more likely to prefer TikTok".
• Youtube is consumed A LOT on the website, including some people using the mobile website (not the app) to keep it playing in the background (duh). This only compares average time on app.
• It could also be totally skewed, if let's say 100M people spend 2h/day on average on Youtube, and 1k (a tiny amount) spend 2.5h/day on average on Tiktok, that'd be already good enough to say "average time per user spent on the apps is higher for TikTok".
I haven't read the report, but wanted to point out these two warnings. As we say in Spanish, the easiest way to lie is with statistics. And of course any half-decent PR person will take any numbers and blow it up into a headline, so tread with caution.
(Absolutely not wanting to discount on Tiktok, which has been growing at an incredible rate, just wanted to say that the wording on how exactly they are "winning" sounded a bit contrieved).