What happens to used electric car batteries?(wired.com)
wired.com
What happens to used electric car batteries?
https://www.wired.com/story/cars-going-electric-what-happens-used-batteries/
83 comments
These articles are insane, 10min in until you get to the part of what happens to used batteries.
I’m really thinking the media business model is totally broken for these authors to not go straight to the point
I like it.
Drinking coffee, by the window, in the shade watching the sun in the garden... Take your time!
Drinking coffee, by the window, in the shade watching the sun in the garden... Take your time!
It's long form (although somewhat short for that). Consider yourself lucky that this article even has a descriptive title and gets around to addressing it at some point in the body. A lot of long form journalism is just a click-bait title with rambling.
Personally, I think long-form writers need to start including abstracts. If I'm going to spend half an hour reading something, I'd like to know what it's about before I commit the time. If no abstract seems adequate to capture the breadth of a long form article's ramblings, then it lacks focus and should be revised.
Personally, I think long-form writers need to start including abstracts. If I'm going to spend half an hour reading something, I'd like to know what it's about before I commit the time. If no abstract seems adequate to capture the breadth of a long form article's ramblings, then it lacks focus and should be revised.
Haven't read the article ... But I am always taken aback by these "and now we look at the complete life of the guy that did whatever the article is actually about"-detours.
When I read an article about about ... fishing in Alaska ... I was btw born in the last millenia and had a pretty normal childhood. But if you dig out school colleagues of mine you will find somebody who will tell you I was a strange kid in school .
5 minutes later I have still not read anything about fishing in Alaska.
Feels like complete filler material to me, probably to increase "engagement".
When I read an article about about ... fishing in Alaska ... I was btw born in the last millenia and had a pretty normal childhood. But if you dig out school colleagues of mine you will find somebody who will tell you I was a strange kid in school .
5 minutes later I have still not read anything about fishing in Alaska.
Feels like complete filler material to me, probably to increase "engagement".
More page length - more ads.
I do wonder sometimes if at least some articles are so long just to be able to fit more ad banners within a single article.
I turned off the content blocker and counted 6 ads within the length of this article.
I turned off the content blocker and counted 6 ads within the length of this article.
It is more opinion than investigative journalism.
This is the only information about what actually happens to batteries. It is very imprecise. And limited to one company
"When batteries can’t be fixed or reused, the company recycles some at its onsite facility. It also stores batteries. Lots of them. SNT’s main warehouse in Oklahoma City holds hundreds of electric car batteries, stacked on shelves that jut 30 feet into the air. With the Bolt recall, GM will send SNT many more."
This is the only information about what actually happens to batteries. It is very imprecise. And limited to one company
"When batteries can’t be fixed or reused, the company recycles some at its onsite facility. It also stores batteries. Lots of them. SNT’s main warehouse in Oklahoma City holds hundreds of electric car batteries, stacked on shelves that jut 30 feet into the air. With the Bolt recall, GM will send SNT many more."
Kind of surprised there is barely a mention of second-life use of old EV batteries, e.g. for energy storage applications. Which is something GM (along with others) has said it is pursuing. See https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/car-makers-and-...
> In SNT’s warehouse, bright red emergency water lines snake across the ceilings, a safeguard against calamity.
Are water lines going to be adequate to contain a warehouse full of lithium batteries on fire?
Are water lines going to be adequate to contain a warehouse full of lithium batteries on fire?
I see this as very relevant:
>In Oklahoma City, the batteries in the SNT warehouse mostly came from cars that are still under warranty, which means the automakers are responsible for them. Tyler Helps, the company’s head of business development, says automakers are paying SNT to keep their old batteries because they don’t know what the used battery market is going to look like and whether the materials inside the battery might be more valuable in the future. “So instead of the automakers saying, ‘I'm going to go and dispose of those materials,’ they say, ‘I’m just going to hold onto it,’” he says.
I am not convinced of the analysis, it is more likely that the car makers know that the cost of disposing properly (and in large volumes) such batteries today would be astronomical (let's say - only for the sake of reasoning - US$ 2,000 per car) and prefer to pay (say) US$ 50/year to SNT and postpone the problem by - still say - 10 or 20 years (and most probably they already charged you, inside the price of your new electric vehicle, some US$ 3,000, to stay on the safe side)
In a nutshell, you don't want right now to actually own an electric car past its warranty, you'd be better served by long renting or similar, as there is a concrete risk that if/when your batteries die, there won't be (yet) an effective way to get rid of them cleanly and you may have to pay a non-trivial amount of money for disposing of the battery.
Additionally, it seems to me like this opens a (large) can of worms when it comes to used vehicles.
Will there be specialized technicians/organizations that will give you some form of warranty on the batteries?
>In Oklahoma City, the batteries in the SNT warehouse mostly came from cars that are still under warranty, which means the automakers are responsible for them. Tyler Helps, the company’s head of business development, says automakers are paying SNT to keep their old batteries because they don’t know what the used battery market is going to look like and whether the materials inside the battery might be more valuable in the future. “So instead of the automakers saying, ‘I'm going to go and dispose of those materials,’ they say, ‘I’m just going to hold onto it,’” he says.
I am not convinced of the analysis, it is more likely that the car makers know that the cost of disposing properly (and in large volumes) such batteries today would be astronomical (let's say - only for the sake of reasoning - US$ 2,000 per car) and prefer to pay (say) US$ 50/year to SNT and postpone the problem by - still say - 10 or 20 years (and most probably they already charged you, inside the price of your new electric vehicle, some US$ 3,000, to stay on the safe side)
In a nutshell, you don't want right now to actually own an electric car past its warranty, you'd be better served by long renting or similar, as there is a concrete risk that if/when your batteries die, there won't be (yet) an effective way to get rid of them cleanly and you may have to pay a non-trivial amount of money for disposing of the battery.
Additionally, it seems to me like this opens a (large) can of worms when it comes to used vehicles.
Will there be specialized technicians/organizations that will give you some form of warranty on the batteries?
The question is how much material can be reclaimed from the battery.
Batteries are resource gold mines with most material readily available (the casing, for example, would be the easiest thing to recycle).
Further, simple recycling (burn everything) of the inner parts is almost certainly worth it just to reclaim the current contents of nickel and cobalt.
What's not clear is if other resources can be reclaimed or if this can be taken further. Can we also reclaim the electrolyte (The substance between the anode and cathode)? Can we do all this without smelting down parts?
That's the unknown. That's also what manufactures are saying when they say "we don't know if this will be more or less valuable in the future." Because, as you can imagine, if recycling is simply applying a chemical wash to the electrolyte and reusing everything else, then you've saved $1000s of dollars avoiding making a new battery.
If, on the other hand, that's not possible, then smelting will still happen as that reclaims expensive materials (primarily nickel and cobalt) at a fraction of the cost of mining them fresh.
In other words, we know how to recycle battery materials. We don't know if we can recycle all of the battery materials. As a result, battery manufactures are just waiting until the cost of manufacturing new batteries becomes cost prohibitive without starting a recycling plant.
Batteries are resource gold mines with most material readily available (the casing, for example, would be the easiest thing to recycle).
Further, simple recycling (burn everything) of the inner parts is almost certainly worth it just to reclaim the current contents of nickel and cobalt.
What's not clear is if other resources can be reclaimed or if this can be taken further. Can we also reclaim the electrolyte (The substance between the anode and cathode)? Can we do all this without smelting down parts?
That's the unknown. That's also what manufactures are saying when they say "we don't know if this will be more or less valuable in the future." Because, as you can imagine, if recycling is simply applying a chemical wash to the electrolyte and reusing everything else, then you've saved $1000s of dollars avoiding making a new battery.
If, on the other hand, that's not possible, then smelting will still happen as that reclaims expensive materials (primarily nickel and cobalt) at a fraction of the cost of mining them fresh.
In other words, we know how to recycle battery materials. We don't know if we can recycle all of the battery materials. As a result, battery manufactures are just waiting until the cost of manufacturing new batteries becomes cost prohibitive without starting a recycling plant.
>The question is how much material can be reclaimed from the battery.
My question was rather different, much more simple/practical.
Today (not tomorrow, not ten years from now) I own a "normal" ICE car and for some reasons it breaks beyond any possible repair.
Currently (and it may depend on countries) I can sell the wreck to someone authorized to dismantle it and get a few hundred bucks for it or - in the worst case - pay someone to dismantle/recycle it a few hundred bucks (and I can - within limits - choose among many companies that provide this services according to the current Law).
What would happen (still today) if the car was an electric one?
My question was rather different, much more simple/practical.
Today (not tomorrow, not ten years from now) I own a "normal" ICE car and for some reasons it breaks beyond any possible repair.
Currently (and it may depend on countries) I can sell the wreck to someone authorized to dismantle it and get a few hundred bucks for it or - in the worst case - pay someone to dismantle/recycle it a few hundred bucks (and I can - within limits - choose among many companies that provide this services according to the current Law).
What would happen (still today) if the car was an electric one?
Today: Most of it gets thrown away and wasted.
Tomorrow(ish): We recycle more of it.
But your question in many ways is less practical. Statistically cars have lifespans that we can chart out rather well. We can see that we have X tons of old batteries today, and on some tomorrow we'll have X+Y tons of old batteries. Which is important. Industry tends to scale. Working with 100 tons of material may not be an economical in a batch process. But when you have a million tons of the same materials you build an entire facility around said process and the small efficiencies add up at every step.
Tomorrow(ish): We recycle more of it.
But your question in many ways is less practical. Statistically cars have lifespans that we can chart out rather well. We can see that we have X tons of old batteries today, and on some tomorrow we'll have X+Y tons of old batteries. Which is important. Industry tends to scale. Working with 100 tons of material may not be an economical in a batch process. But when you have a million tons of the same materials you build an entire facility around said process and the small efficiencies add up at every step.
And - again - this has nothing to do with the question I asked/the issue I was talking about, which is not what happens to batteries, it is about who does the whatever is (considered lawful) supposed to be done with them and how much it will cost me, it remains a VERY practical question.
Who (names of the companies) today (not tomorrow, not in ten years time) will pick up my wrecked electric car (and its batteries)?
For an old, traditional, ICE car I open the local phone directory and can find a handful of car wreckers that are authorized to scrap the car.
What do I do if the car is an electric one?
Who (names of the companies) today (not tomorrow, not in ten years time) will pick up my wrecked electric car (and its batteries)?
For an old, traditional, ICE car I open the local phone directory and can find a handful of car wreckers that are authorized to scrap the car.
What do I do if the car is an electric one?
Any ICE salvage company will salvage an EV. Why do you think they won't?
So, pull up the phone directory and call any one of those wreckers, ask them if they handle EVs. All of them will say yes.
So, pull up the phone directory and call any one of those wreckers, ask them if they handle EVs. All of them will say yes.
Maybe this happens in the US.
Here (Italy, but I believe that several EU countries are in this same situation) they won't touch an electric vehicle with a ten foot pole.
They are not authorized to handle or store lithium batteries (that are considered dangerous wastes) and don't have the (safety) qualifications nor tools to handle mid-range voltages.
There are in the making some new EU norms (and investments) related to "circular economy" for the EV batteries:
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_21_...
but right now they are e-waste, the so-called RAEE/WEEE, and while there is a code 160005 (that is for batteries coming from phones, notebooks, etc.) EV batteries are likely to fall in the 160215 code (which is dangerous parts removed from assemblies).
We are talking (if you can find anyone that will dismantle them) of roughly 4/5 Euro/kg for the disposal fees.
Here (Italy, but I believe that several EU countries are in this same situation) they won't touch an electric vehicle with a ten foot pole.
They are not authorized to handle or store lithium batteries (that are considered dangerous wastes) and don't have the (safety) qualifications nor tools to handle mid-range voltages.
There are in the making some new EU norms (and investments) related to "circular economy" for the EV batteries:
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_21_...
but right now they are e-waste, the so-called RAEE/WEEE, and while there is a code 160005 (that is for batteries coming from phones, notebooks, etc.) EV batteries are likely to fall in the 160215 code (which is dangerous parts removed from assemblies).
We are talking (if you can find anyone that will dismantle them) of roughly 4/5 Euro/kg for the disposal fees.
These batteries are not being thrown away and wasted.
There's a pretty big second hand market for salvaged batteries. Except in the case of catastrophic failure, these batteries are either being stored for later recycling, or being sold outright for a second use unchanged.
They are not ending up in the junk yard. [1]
[1] http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=TeslaBattModule
There's a pretty big second hand market for salvaged batteries. Except in the case of catastrophic failure, these batteries are either being stored for later recycling, or being sold outright for a second use unchanged.
They are not ending up in the junk yard. [1]
[1] http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=TeslaBattModule
Exactly the same thing.
The only difference is the battery cells might be stored instead of immediately recycled. (though, already there's a pretty hopping market for second hand battery packs from salvaged vehicles. Lots of people like to turn those into energy storage for homes/etc).
The simple practical answer is that storing batteries, right now, makes more sense than trying to immediately salvage them. Not because they are unsalvageable, but because future expected salvaging operations are expected to reuse more of the material.
The only difference is the battery cells might be stored instead of immediately recycled. (though, already there's a pretty hopping market for second hand battery packs from salvaged vehicles. Lots of people like to turn those into energy storage for homes/etc).
The simple practical answer is that storing batteries, right now, makes more sense than trying to immediately salvage them. Not because they are unsalvageable, but because future expected salvaging operations are expected to reuse more of the material.
The $2000USD figure is approximately correct. We've run the numbers to be between $800-3200 depending on the weight of the battery, and how difficult it is to disassemble. 3200 for a 700kg Porsche Tycan battery.
(My cofounder and I launched a company to disassemble the batteries robotically, if you're interested in helping us build it, please message me).
(My cofounder and I launched a company to disassemble the batteries robotically, if you're interested in helping us build it, please message me).
As an FYI there's no way to directly message capability here on HN so if you're interested in people being able to reach you you might want to put some form of contact info in your profile.
Yep, though - to be fair - it is not much difficult to find his company's site by searching for the user name, "andrawes bahou"+ "batteries".
Sorry for that, I updated my profile with email.
>In a nutshell, you don't want right now to actually own an electric car past its warranty, you'd be better served by long renting or similar
If you can tolerate the risk, a used, out-of-warranty ev can be pretty economical. You'd want to do something to evaluate the condition of the battery, and then accept that there is some probability of a battery failure that will not be worth fixing.
If you can tolerate the risk, a used, out-of-warranty ev can be pretty economical. You'd want to do something to evaluate the condition of the battery, and then accept that there is some probability of a battery failure that will not be worth fixing.
This has all the hallmarks of liability shift as well. Akin to the "superfund" sites. While I dont think this will be that extreme I can see more than a few of these companies that just house this kind of thing quietly going bankrupt leaving the local (or federal) tax payers holding the bill to do the proper disposal
We need legislation immediately which requires that all new batteries are designed and made to be disassembled for recycling both easily and cheaply. Do it now, while the industry is ramping up so the costs can be built into the system.
Also, every battery that is produced should have a serial number on it. These are not things that can just be dumped in a hole and forgotten. The manufacturer of that battery should be responsible for it from the day it's made to the day it's recycled.
Side note: You know those Tide Pod plastic buckets? Those are recyclable. The refill bags of pods, however, are made of a plastic that is not recyclable - so you buy the bag to create less waste and actually end up creating more. This is the sort of stupidity that shouldn't be legally allowed in the future.
Also, every battery that is produced should have a serial number on it. These are not things that can just be dumped in a hole and forgotten. The manufacturer of that battery should be responsible for it from the day it's made to the day it's recycled.
Side note: You know those Tide Pod plastic buckets? Those are recyclable. The refill bags of pods, however, are made of a plastic that is not recyclable - so you buy the bag to create less waste and actually end up creating more. This is the sort of stupidity that shouldn't be legally allowed in the future.
> Side note: You know those Tide Pod plastic buckets? Those are recyclable. The refill bags of pods, however, are made of a plastic that is not recyclable - so you buy the bag to create less waste and actually end up creating more.
Are those buckets recyclable as in "stamped with the recycling symbol" or "actually will get recycled if you drop it in the recycling bin"? I've heard that most plastics, recyclable or not, are not recycled in practice due to cost, contamination, or lack of demand. (If that's true, then the bag is better than the bucket because it's less plastic.)
Are those buckets recyclable as in "stamped with the recycling symbol" or "actually will get recycled if you drop it in the recycling bin"? I've heard that most plastics, recyclable or not, are not recycled in practice due to cost, contamination, or lack of demand. (If that's true, then the bag is better than the bucket because it's less plastic.)
I actually just looked it up, and it's even more complicated, of course... From their website:
• The tub is recyclable. Please ensure that your area's recycling programs support the recycling of this type of container.
• The lid component is recyclable only in the few communities that have recycling programs for this type of material.
• The bag is not recyclable.
https://pgconsumersupport.secure.force.com/CarehubStandalone...
• The tub is recyclable. Please ensure that your area's recycling programs support the recycling of this type of container.
• The lid component is recyclable only in the few communities that have recycling programs for this type of material.
• The bag is not recyclable.
https://pgconsumersupport.secure.force.com/CarehubStandalone...
The tub is very realistically user reusable, at least once.
Both the tub and the bag have less carbon footprint than a cotton bag, glass container, or metal tin. Likely less than transporting liquid detergent (though more than powder in cardboard)
Both the tub and the bag have less carbon footprint than a cotton bag, glass container, or metal tin. Likely less than transporting liquid detergent (though more than powder in cardboard)
The tub has to be thoroughly cleaned, and even then you shouldn't store food in it because of the detergents possibly permeating the plastic. I read this in an article about repurposing the tubs as Jack-o'-lanterns for Halloween.
Anyways, what's your point? They could use cardboard just as easily. And that still doesn't excuse plastics being used today that are non recyclable.
Anyways, what's your point? They could use cardboard just as easily. And that still doesn't excuse plastics being used today that are non recyclable.
My point is that cardboard is often not better than plastics. Especially if the priority is less carbon rather than concerns about [non methane or sludge producing] landfill usage.
Recycled cardboard has a higher (3x) energy footprint and water waste than pe products.
This is an interesting comparison. https://www.egglandsbest.com/exceptional-quality/sustainabil...
Recycled cardboard has a higher (3x) energy footprint and water waste than pe products.
This is an interesting comparison. https://www.egglandsbest.com/exceptional-quality/sustainabil...
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If it gets wet then the pods would be ruined.
The automaker should be responsible for recycling their batteries to allign incentives.
Imagine trying to dissassemble a 20 yo EV battery with rust and salt bridges everywhere and not die in the process.
Imagine trying to dissassemble a 20 yo EV battery with rust and salt bridges everywhere and not die in the process.
At least in the EU, car manufacturers have to take back old cars at no costs already.
USA exports used solar panels for disposal in trash dumps 'over there'. The entire lifecycle of electric usage is important and easily overlooked.
Be precise with legislation. For example, some States forbid landfill of whole tires. This led to collection of per-tire disposal fee and the landfills purchasing new wheel loader to scoop whole tires into new shredder which uses new conveyor to pile up the tire shreds. Wheel loader then scoops shreds and sprinkles the shreds into landfill.
Be precise with legislation. For example, some States forbid landfill of whole tires. This led to collection of per-tire disposal fee and the landfills purchasing new wheel loader to scoop whole tires into new shredder which uses new conveyor to pile up the tire shreds. Wheel loader then scoops shreds and sprinkles the shreds into landfill.
Is that a loophole in the law? You can't dispose of tires but if you shred them, they are no longer tires, and you can now dispose of them?
Tyres are breeding grounds for mosquitos, shredding them stops this so this law is having the intended effect.
https://blog.epa.gov/2015/08/26/improperly-stored-tires-lead...
https://blog.epa.gov/2015/08/26/improperly-stored-tires-lead...
At least they consume way less space that way.
It's going to be hard to push regulation to specifically make it easier to dissassemble them. However, regulation that makes the manufacturer responsible throughout the life of the battery (and beyond the vehicle's warranty period) should be possible, and would force the manufacturer into designing-for-recycling.
Disclaimer: I'm affiliated, as a founder, with a company building robots to disassemble car batteries semi-automatically.
Even if this (hopefully) happens, and it happens fast, it might become similar (in EU) to what is now the Law regarding solar panels, see:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13250584
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13250584
Such a law would kill structural batteries [1] in their infancy. That may or may not be a good thing.
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[1]https://scitechdaily.com/big-breakthrough-for-massless-energ...
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[1]https://scitechdaily.com/big-breakthrough-for-massless-energ...
Couldn't they just cut it out like extracting part of a car frame?
The goal is to get inside for the packs
No joke, cutting it out makes the batteries explode if they are not deeply discharged.
At least for the purpose of recycling, where it is ok to destroy any part of the housing, batteries are very recycling friendly, as they are made of modular cells.
Ideal is detergent powder in recycled paper packaging. Or would be, I don't think you can buy it that way.
When I was growing up, (all?) laundry detergent /was/ powder in a cardboard box. I recently remembered that as we tried to move to powdered detergent again - and found it really difficult to find locally, and at a reasonable price per load. There are some online retailers (like "Meliora") which offer it (but then you're adding the small-scale shipping into the environmental equation), so we've just been buying it in bulk that way. And it works perfectly well. They ship their refills in a small brown paper bag - not sure if it's recycled, but the overall impact has to be minimal compared to plastic tubs.
Same with dishwasher detergent. It /used/ to be powder. There's still powder now easy to find, at least, and it works perfectly fine.
Same with dishwasher detergent. It /used/ to be powder. There's still powder now easy to find, at least, and it works perfectly fine.
Those pods are the dumbest invention that consumers have fallen for. Pouring powder from the box works much better for cleaning because you want some washing soda in the pre-wash as well as the main wash. Pour some in the compartment that closes and some on the door, or the little compartment that automatically leaks onto the door. Dishwashing pods are a total scam and they clean dishes less well than pouring powder for 8x the cost and a worse environmental impact.
A French company (https://900.care) does that.
No affiliation, but I want to try them out after they popped up in my youtube ads following searches on exactly these kind of products. I do not know if they are good but zt least they tick the sustainability part I was looking for.
No affiliation, but I want to try them out after they popped up in my youtube ads following searches on exactly these kind of products. I do not know if they are good but zt least they tick the sustainability part I was looking for.
You can definitely buy powder in paper/cardboard packaging, at least here in Austria. But I just checked my box, and it's unfortunately not made from recycled fibers. At least recycling this won't be a problem.
For old EV batteries where the only reason they need replacement is reduced capacity I wonder if they might be useful in some stationary applications? I'd love to have a whole-house battery backup system for the occasional power outage, but systems with new batteries are too expensive.
An 80 kWh battery, say, that has lost half its capacity would have been enough to get me through most outages I've seen since moving into my current house 15 years ago without me having to even try to reduce power during the outage. The one or two outages where that would not have been enough, it would have been sufficient to just dress warmer, turn the thermostat down a little, and avoid doing laundry.
I'd be interested in this as long as the price per kWh of the degraded battery is significantly lower than the price for a new battery with the same capacity. The degraded battery is going to be good for much less cycles than a new battery of the same capacity, so it should cost less.
An 80 kWh battery, say, that has lost half its capacity would have been enough to get me through most outages I've seen since moving into my current house 15 years ago without me having to even try to reduce power during the outage. The one or two outages where that would not have been enough, it would have been sufficient to just dress warmer, turn the thermostat down a little, and avoid doing laundry.
I'd be interested in this as long as the price per kWh of the degraded battery is significantly lower than the price for a new battery with the same capacity. The degraded battery is going to be good for much less cycles than a new battery of the same capacity, so it should cost less.
I'm not very knowledgeable about this, but don't think they fail this gracefully.
I thought that a lot of the battery failures in EVs was due to the failures of individual cells (like AA batteries) within modules, which make it impossible for the BMS to balance power between modules. There was a recent youtube video where an old Model S had its range dramatically reduced to less than 25% because a module had 2 bad cells. The cells were replaced, and the car works as normal now. There was a debate about how long-term that fix would be (eg, would the same thing happen soon, as other cells die).
I thought that a lot of the battery failures in EVs was due to the failures of individual cells (like AA batteries) within modules, which make it impossible for the BMS to balance power between modules. There was a recent youtube video where an old Model S had its range dramatically reduced to less than 25% because a module had 2 bad cells. The cells were replaced, and the car works as normal now. There was a debate about how long-term that fix would be (eg, would the same thing happen soon, as other cells die).
My LEAF had that repair done under warranty (cell #17 was dramatically weaker than the rest, resulting in the pack suddenly having around 33% range and 50% power). Repair was disassemble, change module #9 (cells 17&18), reassemble but took about 2 calendar weeks for parts and trained labor reasons (repair itself was done in a single day).
3.25 years later there is no evidence of recurrence/spread and battery diagnostics are all good. That’s an N of 1, but I don’t see any structural reason to think my battery would now be any different than the sibling car’s battery that was next off the production line (assuming there was no additional fault introduced during service).
3.25 years later there is no evidence of recurrence/spread and battery diagnostics are all good. That’s an N of 1, but I don’t see any structural reason to think my battery would now be any different than the sibling car’s battery that was next off the production line (assuming there was no additional fault introduced during service).
BMW have deals to do reuse old batteries for static storage. https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/united-kingdom/article/detail...
There is a booming market for people that use them in camper vans/overland style vehicle applications alongside solar panels.
Would you have any links to projects?
This couple used Leaf modules to create a 48v pack for their vintage bus. 3 years later their bus construction is done and they're on the road, and the batteries are doing fine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gHoNT3E6ZQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gHoNT3E6ZQ
Used batteries will be big business:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29090924
I'm also willing to bet that this will become a high value item for property theft.
I'm also willing to bet that this will become a high value item for property theft.
Unlike a catalytic converter which is lightweight and easy to steal, the battery of an EV is neither. Heck, even a PHEV like the Prius has a battery that weighs 150+ lbs. And as the range on these vehicles increase, so too will the weight.
I don't see any way to steal electric car battery without actually stealing the car. Its big, heavy, scary (and actually dangerous), and highly integrated with the car
Definitely not the current versions of batteries but those will drop in size over a short period of time. Maybe instead of stealing the battery itself the energy from it would be illegitimately transferred off ... "siphoned off" if you will
Unless the car is designed for fast battery swaps.
It's still a big heavy item to steal, but it's conceivable to drop it on a skate and hoist it into a van.
It's still a big heavy item to steal, but it's conceivable to drop it on a skate and hoist it into a van.
When I first read the top-level comment I initially thought the same thing.
After reading your comment I'm thinking that we'll eventually see start seeing YouTube videos crop up of three guys with sawzalls and angle grinders cut out a battery onto a skateboard and hoist it into the back of a truck in minutes.
After reading your comment I'm thinking that we'll eventually see start seeing YouTube videos crop up of three guys with sawzalls and angle grinders cut out a battery onto a skateboard and hoist it into the back of a truck in minutes.
i doubt this will be a big issue, the safety requirements around this will match the price of the damned things.
People don’t seem to have any issues stealing 600lb motorcycles
600lb motorcycles aren’t usually integrated internally into a several tone vehicle and mostly don’t discharge high voltage dc into anyone trying to steal them.
These are merely operational details. With some training and a little bit of Darwinian selection, I could easily see the same guys that mastered stealing catalytic converters in 2 minutes [1] shifting their focus to EV batteries. It might take them longer, say, 5 minutes, but the payoff is far higher.
[1] https://www.edmunds.com/auto-insurance/in-under-two-minutes-...
[1] https://www.edmunds.com/auto-insurance/in-under-two-minutes-...
Ah, yes, darwin selection. Should go to the Darwin Awards page to see what happens to people trying to steal from high voltage systems.
As thieves steal cars and trucks and boats and things, I’m guessing car batteries or stealing vehicles for their batteries would be a thing.. except for DRM.
I think it’s highly likely that batteries will be like printer cartridges and a battery taken from one car won’t just work in another etc.
I think it’s highly likely that batteries will be like printer cartridges and a battery taken from one car won’t just work in another etc.
I think the big bussiness opportunity is bankruptcy.
Lease some land, build a cheap warehouse, stock batteries for profit. Go bankrupt
Put batteries in a ship, dump them in international waters. Go bankrupt.
Sell them abroad as "refurbished" stock. Go bankrupt. This one actually works for expired batteries, you can buy them on ebay.
Lease some land, build a cheap warehouse, stock batteries for profit. Go bankrupt
Put batteries in a ship, dump them in international waters. Go bankrupt.
Sell them abroad as "refurbished" stock. Go bankrupt. This one actually works for expired batteries, you can buy them on ebay.
Contact RV, off-the grid people, people with projects that need the batteries - PROFITS! Only the dumb people can't make a profit off selling BEV batteries.
Does recycled mean scrapping, or refurbishing for less strenuous use such as household or industrial power storage. I would think the lifespan of a car battery should be 20 years, with only 10 actually in a car.
Recycling in the case of a battery means shredding it, and reducing it into a so-called "black mass", a powder rich in cobalt and nickel. What I've seen is a lot of premature recycling, where batteries with about 70-80% of their state of health remaining get recycled, instead of reused. A promising way around this, is to re-use them in grid storage applications eg. coupled to a wind/solar farm. There, the cycling of battery charge is much less demanding than in a car.
(shamelessly, we're starting a company to tackle just that issue, if anyone interested, message me)
Are EVs worse for the environment than ICE cars?
Let me check with some experts, okay, no they're not.
But what if they burn coal in the electric plant?
Well, we shouldn't do that but still, mildly surprisingly until you think about it, no, still better.
But what about when we run out of rare earths?
They're not rare, so that's not a problem.
I didn't mean run out, I know they're not rare, I meant what about the pollution and the foreigners owning them all?
Did I mention they weren't rare? They don't own them all, they just make them at the moment because we moved a lot of extraction and manufacturing there to take advantage of their low wages and lax labor and environmental laws.
Hah, so you admit that EVs are worse than ICE vehicles!
No, see my first answer.
But if mining stuff is bad and you need to mine stuff for EVs then EVs are bad, and we shouldn't shift to them. QED
Is that seriously your argument?
Okay, never mind that, but what about this warehouse that has hundreds (yeah, not simply dozens but hundreds, with an h!) of batteries in it. Isn't that conclusive proof that climate change was just a hoax by communists to take over the world?
No?
Hah, no-one really believed that, we just really hate regulations so pretended to believe that.
You seem very concerned about pollution and recycling for someone who doesn't like regulation.
No, it's okay we're lying about that too.
Let me check with some experts, okay, no they're not.
But what if they burn coal in the electric plant?
Well, we shouldn't do that but still, mildly surprisingly until you think about it, no, still better.
But what about when we run out of rare earths?
They're not rare, so that's not a problem.
I didn't mean run out, I know they're not rare, I meant what about the pollution and the foreigners owning them all?
Did I mention they weren't rare? They don't own them all, they just make them at the moment because we moved a lot of extraction and manufacturing there to take advantage of their low wages and lax labor and environmental laws.
Hah, so you admit that EVs are worse than ICE vehicles!
No, see my first answer.
But if mining stuff is bad and you need to mine stuff for EVs then EVs are bad, and we shouldn't shift to them. QED
Is that seriously your argument?
Okay, never mind that, but what about this warehouse that has hundreds (yeah, not simply dozens but hundreds, with an h!) of batteries in it. Isn't that conclusive proof that climate change was just a hoax by communists to take over the world?
No?
Hah, no-one really believed that, we just really hate regulations so pretended to believe that.
You seem very concerned about pollution and recycling for someone who doesn't like regulation.
No, it's okay we're lying about that too.
It will happen the same what is happening with used tires in some countries. Stockpile tires, gather millions of them and let them burn. There is no way to extinguish such fire. So now batteries are stacked in piles, hundreds gathered together in one place. Another fire that can’t be extinguished. Battery problem is solved! I really don’t believe about rising value of used batteries in the future. The future recycling process will be designed for future more recycle able batteries and not current toxic waste.
The question in the article title remains unanswered. The long article develops the question, only.
As I see it, the batteries will end in landfills, best case. If you can pay for it, they will end in landfills abroad. Nobody who is relevant is serious about this problem because those batteries are still working.
Consumers are sold the idea that the situation will improve in the future. Hopefully, I have to add.
So much for climate change.
As I see it, the batteries will end in landfills, best case. If you can pay for it, they will end in landfills abroad. Nobody who is relevant is serious about this problem because those batteries are still working.
Consumers are sold the idea that the situation will improve in the future. Hopefully, I have to add.
So much for climate change.
There are plenty of companies working on this. Hundreds of millions of VC money invested already.
And the situation is already pretty good considering there are no piles of lithium batteries being dumped left right and center. Just not a thing because they are way too valuable for that.
You say landfill, I say lithium mine with extremely rich deposits of lithium. Much richer than most natural deposits of the stuff. People are investing in companies that are extracting it from brines that have no more than a few hundred parts per million. It's that valuable. A battery that has kilos of the stuff is worth the kilo price (about 25-29$) minus the price of extraction. A typical Tesla would have around 60-70 kilos of the stuff; close to 2000$ if you can extract it. The lithium in a completely spent EV battery is worth more than many second hand ICE cars that are still driving around. And that's just accounting for the lithium. There is also copper, nickel, cobalt (at least for now) and a few other nice things in there that are each pretty lucrative to attempt to recycle.
Good old lead acid batteries are recycled as well for the same reason. They are still worth a few dollars because of the raw materials. ICE cars are routinely stripped for anything remotely valuable that can be reused or recycled before the rest of it is melted down so the metal can be recycled.
Anyway, consumers don't need to be sold on anything. They've been fine burning obscene amounts of petrol coming from places they couldn't care less about, mined under nature destroying circumstances they never cared about either. All while not caring about the lethal effects of the pollution they are causing in the environment where they and their loved ones actually live and while not feeling the slightest amount of guilt buying SUV type ICE vehicles guzzling many times the amount of fuel they would actually need to do their shopping and school runs. There is more than a bit of double standards being applied here. Hypocrisy would be a better word for it.
And the situation is already pretty good considering there are no piles of lithium batteries being dumped left right and center. Just not a thing because they are way too valuable for that.
You say landfill, I say lithium mine with extremely rich deposits of lithium. Much richer than most natural deposits of the stuff. People are investing in companies that are extracting it from brines that have no more than a few hundred parts per million. It's that valuable. A battery that has kilos of the stuff is worth the kilo price (about 25-29$) minus the price of extraction. A typical Tesla would have around 60-70 kilos of the stuff; close to 2000$ if you can extract it. The lithium in a completely spent EV battery is worth more than many second hand ICE cars that are still driving around. And that's just accounting for the lithium. There is also copper, nickel, cobalt (at least for now) and a few other nice things in there that are each pretty lucrative to attempt to recycle.
Good old lead acid batteries are recycled as well for the same reason. They are still worth a few dollars because of the raw materials. ICE cars are routinely stripped for anything remotely valuable that can be reused or recycled before the rest of it is melted down so the metal can be recycled.
Anyway, consumers don't need to be sold on anything. They've been fine burning obscene amounts of petrol coming from places they couldn't care less about, mined under nature destroying circumstances they never cared about either. All while not caring about the lethal effects of the pollution they are causing in the environment where they and their loved ones actually live and while not feeling the slightest amount of guilt buying SUV type ICE vehicles guzzling many times the amount of fuel they would actually need to do their shopping and school runs. There is more than a bit of double standards being applied here. Hypocrisy would be a better word for it.
It's unlikely they will end up in a landfill. A completely spent battery has cobalt, nickel, manganese, lithium, copper and steel which can fetch around $1500 on average. The trick is in how cheaply you can extract those. (The main cost drivers are battery logistics cost, and battery disassembly costs). Fun fact: Spent batteries are categorized as "Hazardous Waste", and need to be transported in explosion-proof containers, with special licenses, and the police needs to be informed of the exact routes that are travelled.
Bias Disclaimer: I'm working at a company (founder) where we build robots to automatically disassemble the batteries and avoid logistics costs.
Bias Disclaimer: I'm working at a company (founder) where we build robots to automatically disassemble the batteries and avoid logistics costs.
That is even if the battery is really spent. A 100 kWh battery that is now on 80% will still store 80 kWh of power, lots of power for a solar system, emergency power backup or other non-vehicle uses.
At a minimum, batteries contain large amount of steel, nickel, and cobalt which can all be extracted through simple smelting (Boil the metals).
Why would you throw that away? Those are valuable and expensive resources.
The question is entirely around if you can go further and recycle more of the inners and if you can do this without smelting down the whole battery.
I'm completely convinced these batteries won't end up in landfills. I'm less convinced that we won't get there without burning a bunch of silicon and lithium.
Why would you throw that away? Those are valuable and expensive resources.
The question is entirely around if you can go further and recycle more of the inners and if you can do this without smelting down the whole battery.
I'm completely convinced these batteries won't end up in landfills. I'm less convinced that we won't get there without burning a bunch of silicon and lithium.
> So much for climate change.
Making more cars was never going to solve climate change, EVs still have lifetime co2 footprints of the same magnitude as gas cars plus their use is not capped by available supply of oil.
Making more cars was never going to solve climate change, EVs still have lifetime co2 footprints of the same magnitude as gas cars plus their use is not capped by available supply of oil.
Does anyone know what happens to used batteries? After 2 minutes of reading I gave up.
http://web.archive.org/web/20211104055631/https://www.wired....