Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony(batsov.com)
batsov.com
Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony
https://batsov.com/articles/2021/11/28/firefox-is-the-only-alternative/
668 comments
> 1. In many ways Apple's anti-competitive behaviour on iOS/iPadOS is a blessing. It's one of the few things that keep Chromium's dominance in check. Of course, it's not great that Apple are stifling innovation like this, but consider the alternative: Chromium dominance on all platforms.
I don't disagree that is their publicly stated reason for the limitation. Them having the ulterior motive of stifling PWAs on iOS and competition for mobile Safari is a common theory.
Whether they do have ulterior motives or not, the effect is that innovation is stifled.
Whether they do have ulterior motives or not, the effect is that innovation is stifled.
PWA’s aren’t ‘innovation’. Apps can do far more than PWAs.
I believe the stifling of innovation the parent comment refers to is that of browser engines, not of PWAs.
It’s not innovation if it’s just catching up to what another platform has been able to do all along.
In a walled garden, the ability to for the user to do what they want, where they want is perceived as innovation.
The user can’t do what they want where they want on the web. The web is an adware and privacy destroying machine.
> The user can’t do what they want where they want on the web. The web is an adware and privacy destroying machine.
Sounds like you're setting a double standard when Apple also runs ads on their devices[0] as well as selling their user's private data[1]
[0] https://stevestreza.com/2020/02/17/ios-adware/
[1] https://www.macrumors.com/2021/11/26/apple-italy-fine-user-d...
Sounds like you're setting a double standard when Apple also runs ads on their devices[0] as well as selling their user's private data[1]
[0] https://stevestreza.com/2020/02/17/ios-adware/
[1] https://www.macrumors.com/2021/11/26/apple-italy-fine-user-d...
> Sounds like you're setting a double standard when Apple also runs ads on their devices[0] as well as selling their user's private data[1]
Anyone who claims those are equivalent to what is going on on the web is being dishonest.
Neither of the articles even claims that Apple was “selling user data”, so that’s a straight up lie.
I can’t help you if you are going to post links that don’t say what you claim they are saying.
Anyone who claims those are equivalent to what is going on on the web is being dishonest.
Neither of the articles even claims that Apple was “selling user data”, so that’s a straight up lie.
I can’t help you if you are going to post links that don’t say what you claim they are saying.
And yet: Steve Jobs wanted PWA's (or something similar) in the beginning and begrudgingly made an App Store.
Yes, I know the circumstances are different, but I do think it's ironic.
Yes, I know the circumstances are different, but I do think it's ironic.
I guess the grudge went away as the billions started pouring in.
That was just a cover for the fact that the app store infrastructure wasn't ready and they weren't even certain the iPhone was going to take off. They only had so much engineering talent and money, and it went into the phone itself. They had been working on the beginnings of app franeworks and the store before launch. The huge response to the iphone caused them to both lower the price (to widen the potential market once it would be wildly profitable) and increase the speed/budget of the app infrastructure engineering.
> And yet: Steve Jobs wanted PWA's (or something similar) in the beginning and begrudgingly made an App Store.
or it was just the typical double speak from Jobs until they were able to launch their walled garden. Anyone else remember when iPhone users were told they were holding the iPhone wrong during Antennagate? [0]
[0] https://www.engadget.com/2010-06-24-apple-responds-over-ipho...
or it was just the typical double speak from Jobs until they were able to launch their walled garden. Anyone else remember when iPhone users were told they were holding the iPhone wrong during Antennagate? [0]
[0] https://www.engadget.com/2010-06-24-apple-responds-over-ipho...
>Them having the ulterior motive of stifling PWAs
>the effect is that innovation is stifled.
There's no such thing as PWA. There are several dozen of standards, and any combination of them is called PWAs by various people. And quite a few of those combinations work perfectly fine on Apple devices.
What's worse is that too many of those standards are extremely badly designed (service workers) or are pure Chrome-only "standards" rammed through standards bodies (Bluetooth, HID etc.).
>the effect is that innovation is stifled.
There's no such thing as PWA. There are several dozen of standards, and any combination of them is called PWAs by various people. And quite a few of those combinations work perfectly fine on Apple devices.
What's worse is that too many of those standards are extremely badly designed (service workers) or are pure Chrome-only "standards" rammed through standards bodies (Bluetooth, HID etc.).
Supporting manifests to "install" a webapp to my home screen isn't something difficult for Apple/Safari team.
They just don't get their cut from it, so, not a priority.
They just don't get their cut from it, so, not a priority.
According to web.dev, the Chrome propaganda site:
--- start quote ---
Talking about mobile phones and tablets, a Progressive Web App is installable with offline capabilities using the following browsers and app stores:
- iOS and iPadOS
Safari (since iOS 11.3), AppStore (since iOS/iPadOS 14, with some limitations), Mobile Configuration for enterprise distribution.
--- end quote ---
--- start quote ---
Talking about mobile phones and tablets, a Progressive Web App is installable with offline capabilities using the following browsers and app stores:
- iOS and iPadOS
Safari (since iOS 11.3), AppStore (since iOS/iPadOS 14, with some limitations), Mobile Configuration for enterprise distribution.
--- end quote ---
US antitrust law is based on tests of harm to the consumer (though most people do not know this nor about its application due to lack of enforcement). Apple frames everything they do as positive for the consumer to throw up chaff that makes consumer harm harder to quantify for people who don't know better.
Another reason is actually security.
Remember that Apple doesn't allow other web browser engines in any application. Imagine if an Electron application on iOS just decided to ship with it's entire, own browser engine. We would have super-bloated apps like our desktops, and if a security flaw was found, good luck getting all those apps to update.
In a way, Apple knows that allowing other browser engines means:
1. Chromium-based browsers just increase their monopoly, Firefox continues stagnation by almost all odds
2. The Electron mess on our desktops will claim new territory on our phones and bring security problems with it
Not very appealing. Limiting competition? When your only realistic competition is Chrome with it's 80%+ dominance, I don't think a regulator would have a problem with that.
Remember that Apple doesn't allow other web browser engines in any application. Imagine if an Electron application on iOS just decided to ship with it's entire, own browser engine. We would have super-bloated apps like our desktops, and if a security flaw was found, good luck getting all those apps to update.
In a way, Apple knows that allowing other browser engines means:
1. Chromium-based browsers just increase their monopoly, Firefox continues stagnation by almost all odds
2. The Electron mess on our desktops will claim new territory on our phones and bring security problems with it
Not very appealing. Limiting competition? When your only realistic competition is Chrome with it's 80%+ dominance, I don't think a regulator would have a problem with that.
The ironic part of this is that if Apple allowed alternative browser engines, I guarantee you it is only a matter of time before you see Electron apps bringing their own browser engines with them to iOS. And not long after before Hacker News is screaming and moaning about it (like they do for Electron on desktop) and begging for Apple to stop it.
HN already screams and moans about mobile apps built with PhoneGap/Cordova/Capacitor/Ionic ect. for not being "native" at the same time as promoting PWAs and complaining that apple doesn't support them, ignoring that PhoneGap, Cordova and especially Capacitor give you that functionality (mostly). I think that says more about HN than Apple...
What it says is that people mostly just post when they want to complain about stuff. Some minority of people are outraged over lack of PWA on iPhone, so they post to complain loudly about it. Some other minority of people are outraged over electron apps on Mac, so they post to complain loudly about it. It's not the same people, it's just the same pattern of the loud minority and silent majority.
I'll admit, though, I'm in the "I really want native Mac apps" minority :)
I'll admit, though, I'm in the "I really want native Mac apps" minority :)
I’m reminded of a chestnut I was once told; satisfied people generally do not post comments, because people don’t go out of their way to say that things are okay, and your everyday person doesn’t even really post good reviews unprompted, because good service is usually the expectation.
People only really get active about bad divergence from expectations.
People only really get active about bad divergence from expectations.
You never see "Toy Story 2 was ok" spray painted on an overpass.
People do voice very positive opinions, but nobody really voices indifference.
Further, even extremely opinionated people are usually only opinionated about a few things. Most people are indifferent to most things.
People do voice very positive opinions, but nobody really voices indifference.
Further, even extremely opinionated people are usually only opinionated about a few things. Most people are indifferent to most things.
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that in the case of positive opinions, it's not super common to leave them unprompted (see: all the popups in apps for "Like our app? Rate us on the app store!") whereas people angry at bad service have no compunctions about finding somewhere to vent, in public if they have to, and are super driven by their agitation.
the difference is the distribution channel. For cordova you still need to use Apple store and pay yearly and share your income with Apple. With PWA, the distribution channel is web, so no commissions for Apple.
Its almost like different people have different opinions or something.
I don't think there's a lot of overlap between folks who are very upset with Apple for not making PWAs work better on iOS, and people who hate non-native apps and wish they'd be banned.
Also security, but different: Apple want sight of all of the native code that's running in your app, because their ABI is also a privilege boundary. JIT that's not controlled by them could be used to call symbols that your app is not supposed to call.
Security isn’t a great argument when Apple only updates safari with full system updates. Sure, iOS has a high update rate compared to Android but it’s still far lower than an App Store update would be.
Plus, security is somewhat less of a concern when the application only accesses a limited site and isn’t for general purpose browsing for untrusted sites.
Plus, security is somewhat less of a concern when the application only accesses a limited site and isn’t for general purpose browsing for untrusted sites.
> Security isn’t a great argument when Apple only updates safari with full system updates.
But they can put those updates out whenever they want, so that doesn't go against the security argument at all.
But they can put those updates out whenever they want, so that doesn't go against the security argument at all.
Users can only get an update by rebooting their devices, so it absolutely goes against the security argument.
Actually, as a tidbit, Chromium is a fork of WebKit, which is Safari's rendering engine, which for some reason started as a fork from Konqueror (KDE Linux desktop's browser).
Google did however replace the javascript engine in Chromium.
The Javascript engine in Chromium deserves a different discussion, since it also powers NodeJS.
Back in the day, WebKit was quite popular as a rendering engine and is also used by Qt.
Ken Kocienda writes about the origin of Safari in Creative Selection [0].
It started as a Konqueror fork mostly because Jobs wanted a browser on OS X and Ken was initially tasked with it (back then the mac had IE for mac). One person writing a browser from scratch even back then seemed an impossible challenge so he took a look to see if he could use most of Konqueror as an initial starting base.
[0]: The book has some interesting stories, but I find it hard to recommend because it's weirdly written for an extremely non-technical audience (using grandma like analogies to explain basic concepts, the analogies are so basic they do more to obscure than explain - e.g. the filesystem is like a 'cabinet for files'). It doesn't often get into the weeds of the interesting technical details - which is disappointing since 90% of readers are probably technical. The stories in it are still good though and Ken has a lot of insight into the iPhone development story since he was there.
It started as a Konqueror fork mostly because Jobs wanted a browser on OS X and Ken was initially tasked with it (back then the mac had IE for mac). One person writing a browser from scratch even back then seemed an impossible challenge so he took a look to see if he could use most of Konqueror as an initial starting base.
[0]: The book has some interesting stories, but I find it hard to recommend because it's weirdly written for an extremely non-technical audience (using grandma like analogies to explain basic concepts, the analogies are so basic they do more to obscure than explain - e.g. the filesystem is like a 'cabinet for files'). It doesn't often get into the weeds of the interesting technical details - which is disappointing since 90% of readers are probably technical. The stories in it are still good though and Ken has a lot of insight into the iPhone development story since he was there.
KHTML was a pretty viable alternative to the mess that was Gecko at the time. And there were already some (underserved) alternative platform ports in-progress at the time.
It started as a fork of Konqueror because it was the highest-quality codebase available, probably because it was open-source from the ground up and written in a higher-level language rather than the l33t h4x0rs at Netscape with their 4 different memory allocators.
#1 reason, and, think back to when iOS came out, was security. The knock off effect was it ensured that ios/webkit gained defacto marketshare for each device since there was no other option - as the thread starter mentions. I disagree with the contention about innovation - keeping IOS from being a minefield for 99.9999% of users I think was the right course. And killing off flash.
> I think it’s worth noting that (at least I believe) the reason apple limit the usage of other browser engines in iOS isn’t (mostly) about maintaining control and dominance. It’s about battery usage,
I disagree with this word gymnastics, it is Apple-ogism. It takes just a brief look at other decisions they've made to easily see that it is about user lock-in which fits in with their general philosophy. It is not great that they are stifling innovation at all, conflating it with browser dominance is a separate thing.
I disagree with this word gymnastics, it is Apple-ogism. It takes just a brief look at other decisions they've made to easily see that it is about user lock-in which fits in with their general philosophy. It is not great that they are stifling innovation at all, conflating it with browser dominance is a separate thing.
This is a specious argument. Allow competitors to deploy apps causing lousy battery life, and Safari should win easily on that basis. Apple's battery app makes it obvious when apps use a lot of energy.
It doesn't matter if Safari "wins" if all other players "required" Chrome browsers.
Apple sets the rules for its own products. Why didn't "open" win? Why for whatever reason is Apple still #1 in the mobile space?
Perhaps users agree with Apple.
Apple sets the rules for its own products. Why didn't "open" win? Why for whatever reason is Apple still #1 in the mobile space?
Perhaps users agree with Apple.
Users are easily duped by marketing. Even technologists. You can see how easily technologists buy Apple's bald-faced lies that its actions are not about user lock-in throughout this comment section.
I can write a browser using WXWebView that wastes battery outside the rendering code, and Apple won't stop me. I can write a maps application that wastes battery, and Apple won't stop me. But if I write a web rendering engine that wastes battery, I have crossed a line? A line that is so important not to cross that Apple won't even let me try to write a rendering engine that uses less battery than WXWebView? I cannot believe that anybody would buy that argument without marketing distorting their thoughts.
I can write a browser using WXWebView that wastes battery outside the rendering code, and Apple won't stop me. I can write a maps application that wastes battery, and Apple won't stop me. But if I write a web rendering engine that wastes battery, I have crossed a line? A line that is so important not to cross that Apple won't even let me try to write a rendering engine that uses less battery than WXWebView? I cannot believe that anybody would buy that argument without marketing distorting their thoughts.
> Users are easily duped by marketing. Even technologists.
Ah yes. Everything can be explained by marketing, and marketing alone. Poor, poor Google, and Samsung, and so on, who are struggling to find the money and the power to make people buy Android phones through the power of marketing.
Perhaps, just perhaps, I'm going on a limb here, Apple actually makes a phone that people want?
Ah yes. Everything can be explained by marketing, and marketing alone. Poor, poor Google, and Samsung, and so on, who are struggling to find the money and the power to make people buy Android phones through the power of marketing.
Perhaps, just perhaps, I'm going on a limb here, Apple actually makes a phone that people want?
We are, in this very thread, discussing a reason why Apple's phones are worse that people have been duped into putting in the pros column. They are also worse for privacy, yet Apple markets their devices' privacy. They are worse for security, yet Apple markets their devices' security. The shoe fits.
Apple has been a marketing-driven company for decades now and is better at it than any other tech company by a country mile. It's why they bought Beats, not for their technology, but for their marketing prowess. The other companies you listed pick features that are better on their devices to market. Apple's marketing department figured out long ago that no such restriction is necessary.
Apple has been a marketing-driven company for decades now and is better at it than any other tech company by a country mile. It's why they bought Beats, not for their technology, but for their marketing prowess. The other companies you listed pick features that are better on their devices to market. Apple's marketing department figured out long ago that no such restriction is necessary.
> We are, in this very thread, discussing a reason why Apple's phones are worse
Right now, in this very thread I see no such discussion.
> They are also worse for privacy
> They are worse for security
Worse than what?
> The shoe fits.
It doesn't fit, not really. It's gross incompetence and ignorance to explain everything by marketing and people being stupid.
Because what you're saying, is that a good chunk of people on HN are stupid and are "duped by marketing". That I am stupid and am duped by marketing. However, I've seen and tried the alternatives, and I found them lacking.
Right now, in this very thread I see no such discussion.
> They are also worse for privacy
> They are worse for security
Worse than what?
> The shoe fits.
It doesn't fit, not really. It's gross incompetence and ignorance to explain everything by marketing and people being stupid.
Because what you're saying, is that a good chunk of people on HN are stupid and are "duped by marketing". That I am stupid and am duped by marketing. However, I've seen and tried the alternatives, and I found them lacking.
> Right now, in this very thread I see no such discussion.
Look at the first comment you replied to. It's about how Apple restricts how you can browse the web for user lock in but has convinced people it is for the sake of their battery.
> Worse than what?
Worse than Pixels, Android One devices, and ChromeOS devices currently. There are several open source focused devices in the pipeline that have better security design than iOS devices as well but are not yet ready.
> That I am stupid and am duped by marketing.
I did not say you are stupid. I said that people are duped by marketing, and I gave examples. I even pointed out that technologists can be duped, and they are smart in the field they were duped in. Apple's marketing department is smart, and Apple's other employees are smart for supporting their efforts, though when they get caught parroting marketing talking points that are clearly false, it can be embarrassing.
Look at the first comment you replied to. It's about how Apple restricts how you can browse the web for user lock in but has convinced people it is for the sake of their battery.
> Worse than what?
Worse than Pixels, Android One devices, and ChromeOS devices currently. There are several open source focused devices in the pipeline that have better security design than iOS devices as well but are not yet ready.
> That I am stupid and am duped by marketing.
I did not say you are stupid. I said that people are duped by marketing, and I gave examples. I even pointed out that technologists can be duped, and they are smart in the field they were duped in. Apple's marketing department is smart, and Apple's other employees are smart for supporting their efforts, though when they get caught parroting marketing talking points that are clearly false, it can be embarrassing.
> Look at the first comment you replied to. It's about how Apple restricts how you can browse the web for user lock in but has convinced people it is for the sake of their battery.
Ah yes. That comment is obviously wrong, and your comment is obviously correct because you are right, and the other person is wrong. Is that how this works?
> Worse than Pixels, ... and ChromeOS devices currently.
So. Pixels and ChromeOS are made by Google. You know,
- 80% of Google's money comes from online advertising. And this advertising relies on far-reaching privacy invasive tracking
- Google's own employees admitted that they have no idea how to turn the various methods of tracking off. Among others location tracking is so intertwined in Google's products that it's impossible to turn it off at all
Yup. These devices are surely worse for privacy than iPhones which go as far as limit tracking at the OS level.
Can't attest to the devices current security. Given Android's spotty track record of updates, I wouldn't hold my breath for AndroidOne. Oh. And Pixel 3 which was released in the ancient times of exactly three years ago will no longer receive any updates. So yeah.
Meanwhile the iOS 15 which was released this September is available on iPhone SE from 5 years ago.
> There are several open source focused devices in the pipeline that have better ... but are not yet ready.
I yes. Imaginary non-existent phones. In that case I have a phone that's better than any of those, and better than iPhone, and better than Pixel 6. Care to buy one?
> I said that people are duped by marketing, and I gave examples.
No, you didn't. What you did, was make overly broad statements that are either pure speculation, or can be easily refuted.
Ah yes. That comment is obviously wrong, and your comment is obviously correct because you are right, and the other person is wrong. Is that how this works?
> Worse than Pixels, ... and ChromeOS devices currently.
So. Pixels and ChromeOS are made by Google. You know,
- 80% of Google's money comes from online advertising. And this advertising relies on far-reaching privacy invasive tracking
- Google's own employees admitted that they have no idea how to turn the various methods of tracking off. Among others location tracking is so intertwined in Google's products that it's impossible to turn it off at all
Yup. These devices are surely worse for privacy than iPhones which go as far as limit tracking at the OS level.
Can't attest to the devices current security. Given Android's spotty track record of updates, I wouldn't hold my breath for AndroidOne. Oh. And Pixel 3 which was released in the ancient times of exactly three years ago will no longer receive any updates. So yeah.
Meanwhile the iOS 15 which was released this September is available on iPhone SE from 5 years ago.
> There are several open source focused devices in the pipeline that have better ... but are not yet ready.
I yes. Imaginary non-existent phones. In that case I have a phone that's better than any of those, and better than iPhone, and better than Pixel 6. Care to buy one?
> I said that people are duped by marketing, and I gave examples.
No, you didn't. What you did, was make overly broad statements that are either pure speculation, or can be easily refuted.
> Is that how this works?
Read my comment in the context of what it was responding to. You seem to have grossly misunderstood it.
> Yup. These devices are surely worse for privacy than iPhones which go as far as limit tracking at the OS level.
iOS devices do not support end-to-end encryption of message backups, do not support allowing a user to run apps on the device without telling Apple, and do not support getting a user's location without telling Apple. Despite what you may infer about each company's motives, each company's actual actions show a very clear difference in privacy on their devices. Apple is motivated to make money by any means it has available. If it can make money by charging users more for devices and violating their privacy by marketing their devices as being better for privacy, it will do so, and we can see that this is happening right now.
> Meanwhile the iOS 15 which was released this September is available on iPhone SE from 5 years ago.
So you admit an iPhone from 6 years ago is insecure. The fact that only recent devices from either vendor are secure is the same for both, so a user who cares about security will only use a recent device. The difference is that recent devices from Google are far more secure than recent devices from Apple.
> Imaginary non-existent phones.
I was just illustrating that there will be more options in the future. Apple knows about the security features offered by current and future devices but despite that hasn't tried to match those security features and instead contents itself with merely marketing security.
> No, you didn't.
Read my first post. You still haven't refuted it.
Read my comment in the context of what it was responding to. You seem to have grossly misunderstood it.
> Yup. These devices are surely worse for privacy than iPhones which go as far as limit tracking at the OS level.
iOS devices do not support end-to-end encryption of message backups, do not support allowing a user to run apps on the device without telling Apple, and do not support getting a user's location without telling Apple. Despite what you may infer about each company's motives, each company's actual actions show a very clear difference in privacy on their devices. Apple is motivated to make money by any means it has available. If it can make money by charging users more for devices and violating their privacy by marketing their devices as being better for privacy, it will do so, and we can see that this is happening right now.
> Meanwhile the iOS 15 which was released this September is available on iPhone SE from 5 years ago.
So you admit an iPhone from 6 years ago is insecure. The fact that only recent devices from either vendor are secure is the same for both, so a user who cares about security will only use a recent device. The difference is that recent devices from Google are far more secure than recent devices from Apple.
> Imaginary non-existent phones.
I was just illustrating that there will be more options in the future. Apple knows about the security features offered by current and future devices but despite that hasn't tried to match those security features and instead contents itself with merely marketing security.
> No, you didn't.
Read my first post. You still haven't refuted it.
> Read my comment in the context of what it was responding to.
I've read the comment an the context. It says "that person is wrong, only my opinion on what Apple does its right"
> Despite what you may infer about each company's motives, each company's actual actions show a very clear difference in privacy on their devices.
Indeed it does. And Google is many magnitudes more invasive than Apple. Including, but not limited to "applications which have location tracking disabled can use location tracking information from another Google application" https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/ne...
> So you admit an iPhone from 6 years ago is insecure. The fact that only recent devices from either vendor are secure is the same for both
It's emphatically not the same for both:
- Apple: support phones for up to five years.
- Google: supports its own "flagship phones" only for three years.
HN poster: see, they are the same.
> I was just illustrating that there will be more options in the future.
Once again: I'm not interested in fantasies and comparisons against non-existent phones.
> Read my first post. You still haven't refuted it.
I mean, your approach to argument is "I'm right just because I say is right", so nothing will dissuade you.
This is pointless. So, adieu.
I've read the comment an the context. It says "that person is wrong, only my opinion on what Apple does its right"
> Despite what you may infer about each company's motives, each company's actual actions show a very clear difference in privacy on their devices.
Indeed it does. And Google is many magnitudes more invasive than Apple. Including, but not limited to "applications which have location tracking disabled can use location tracking information from another Google application" https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/ne...
> So you admit an iPhone from 6 years ago is insecure. The fact that only recent devices from either vendor are secure is the same for both
It's emphatically not the same for both:
- Apple: support phones for up to five years.
- Google: supports its own "flagship phones" only for three years.
HN poster: see, they are the same.
> I was just illustrating that there will be more options in the future.
Once again: I'm not interested in fantasies and comparisons against non-existent phones.
> Read my first post. You still haven't refuted it.
I mean, your approach to argument is "I'm right just because I say is right", so nothing will dissuade you.
This is pointless. So, adieu.
Battery usage, yes, but if developers could create theirs apps as websites with no loss of functionality and pay zero money to Apple a non empty set of users would use them and Apple would lose some money. I think that Apple ultimately cares about money. Battery, PWAs, etc are all factors they ponder upon to optimize the bottom line.
haha yes, and Microsoft included IE4 into the Windows desktop so that users could have all the benefits of IE for free.
>I think it’s worth noting that (at least I believe) the reason apple limit the usage of other browser engines in iOS isn’t (mostly) about maintaining control and dominance. It’s about battery usage
Why would this be a believable excuse? you can install a Firefox skin of WebKit on iOS and this skin could maybe be terrible on battery usage. A good default browser like on laptops is good enough for battery, people who care about it will use Safari, the obvious reason Apple is doing this is to prevent competition, so if Apple fucks with WebGL then you can't have say a WebGL based mobile game that would go around the Apple Store.
Why would this be a believable excuse? you can install a Firefox skin of WebKit on iOS and this skin could maybe be terrible on battery usage. A good default browser like on laptops is good enough for battery, people who care about it will use Safari, the obvious reason Apple is doing this is to prevent competition, so if Apple fucks with WebGL then you can't have say a WebGL based mobile game that would go around the Apple Store.
Even if battery usage was the reason behind it, it's not good enough. Let the user decide whether or not they're willing to sacrifice battery life if they want to.
A user has no way to know that's the tradeoff. They don't know what tech any given app was built with and they don't understand what the tradeoffs are for different tech.
simply make it easy for users to see what apps are responisble to battery usage. if someone sees that their crappy browser is using all of their battery but safari doesn't they will quit using the crappy browser.
> battery usage is the number one KPI people care about.
I wish all phone manufacturers actually understood that
/me glances at my Pixel 3XL with 3430 mAh batt
I wish all phone manufacturers actually understood that
/me glances at my Pixel 3XL with 3430 mAh batt
Battery capacity != battery life.
I switched to a used iPhone and was bummed my 8+ had a "small" ~2400mah battery compared to my Android phone, which was 3100. Then I actually started using it. Even though the Android phone had an OLED screen, it would absolutely melt the battery.
I have so little "battery charge anxiety" now it's not even funny. I don't even bother to charge it above 80-85% most of the time...and the battery life estimator says the battery is down to 82% capacity.
I switched to a used iPhone and was bummed my 8+ had a "small" ~2400mah battery compared to my Android phone, which was 3100. Then I actually started using it. Even though the Android phone had an OLED screen, it would absolutely melt the battery.
I have so little "battery charge anxiety" now it's not even funny. I don't even bother to charge it above 80-85% most of the time...and the battery life estimator says the battery is down to 82% capacity.
Idk, I'm a big fan of what companies like Motorola are doing by taking a 4000mah+ battery and pairing it with some of those low end SoC's that sip battery. Androids power usage can be complete trash, but I've managed 4 days of battery out of these cheap Motorola phones while still using discord/twitter/telegram like normal.
If apple actually went up on their battery sizing they could easily achieve Monday to Friday battery life on something like the iPhone SE.
If apple actually went up on their battery sizing they could easily achieve Monday to Friday battery life on something like the iPhone SE.
There's also the Oppo/Oneplus way of doing things and pairing high quality cells to a better charge standard (SuperVOOC/WARP) that can throw 65W (or more) at the phone and minimize time spent charging. I can't overstate how much this changes my use pattern when I know I can throw phone on charger, take a shower, and by the time I'm out it's full.
The 8T (and follow ups) do feel kinda crazy when it comes to charging. Especially considering it has a higher wattage charger than my laptop currently uses. I've also managed to get 2.5 days out of a single charge on my 8T which is impressive considering the hardware.
Sure, but enjoy the battery being degraded to ~70% of its capacity after barely a year of doing that.
Considering they use two batteries to manage the charging rate do we have anything showing its destroying the phones after a year? (the 8T is a year old so someone might have some proof)
This might not always work - low end SoCs might also be built on older process node, making them less efficient. A higher end SoC also can complete tasks faster, meaning the device can sleep more of the time instead of crunching stuff on old slow cores and keeping the device fully up.
Well while not the fanciest, the 11nm node in the 2020 and 2021 Moto G Power were still plenty modern enough 8-core SoC's to get the job done. Their main problem lies in being stuck with 4GB of RAM. You end up with apps reloading from time to time as other applications pushed it out of memory. Even with that taken into consideration they still make for fine phones and the person I handed mine down to is still using it as their main phone without much issue.
Current phone has 12GB of RAM which is a bit extreme given I rarely seem to use more than 6GB. More Sub $250 phones are creeping up to 6GB which makes for a nicer experience for those on tight budgets.
Now if only we could solve the lack of updates most Android phones experience.
Current phone has 12GB of RAM which is a bit extreme given I rarely seem to use more than 6GB. More Sub $250 phones are creeping up to 6GB which makes for a nicer experience for those on tight budgets.
Now if only we could solve the lack of updates most Android phones experience.
My BlackBerry KeyOne actually has a smaller battery at 3300 mAh, but I don't have to charge it every day. I still use Maps and GPS, stream music, and stray from wifi, because child commenter is right - there's more to battery life and screen on time than battery size.
That is legit my favorite feature of the iphone 13 pro max, the battery is like 4300 mAh and it never runs out during the day no matter what I do with it.
There are many Android phones on the market with a big battery and fast charging.
Why people think Android=Pixel is beyond me.
Why people think Android=Pixel is beyond me.
Pixels are the definitive Android phones. Outside of the Pixel and Galaxy lines, you're getting into murky waters.
That always sounded like very crude excuse to exert control over Web standards by them. If battery usage with their own browsers is so much better, then everyone would be using their browsers on iOS. Why even ban others?
So I don't buy any of the Apple's excuses when they actively cause anti-competitive harm.
So I don't buy any of the Apple's excuses when they actively cause anti-competitive harm.
As far as I’m aware the justification is “no executing pages you can write to at runtime” (because it’s a huge security issue). They give safari an exception to that because you can’t make a JIT without doing that, and that’s the most straightforward way to get fast JavaScript.
Even if you give up the JIT, Apple will still not allow your custom browser on iOS.
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So why can’t we just choose what we want? All evil actions have some pretext, though in some cases (such as this one) the pretext is quite flimsy.
[deleted]
Apple's guaranteed Safari market also helps keep WebKit viable for other browsers like GNOME Web and Nyxt, so that's something I really appreciate.
The Apple of today has a very conflicted relationship with webkit, the anticompetitive reasons they want to keep their platform "webkit only", simultaneously encourages them to support and neglect webkit development. i.e on the one hand, webkit must be reliable and secure and compatible "enough" to provide a decent basic browsing experience. But should not improve so much as to make developing applications competitive with the apple store.
The difference between the resources Google and Apple contribute to their respective open source browser engines is night and day, and as any web developer will know - it shows.
In an ideal world two things would change at the same time: Apple is forced to allow other browsers, and webkit gets some genuine love and decent resources to make it a legitimate competitor again, instead of being used as a pawn in a game between Apple and Google.
The difference between the resources Google and Apple contribute to their respective open source browser engines is night and day, and as any web developer will know - it shows.
In an ideal world two things would change at the same time: Apple is forced to allow other browsers, and webkit gets some genuine love and decent resources to make it a legitimate competitor again, instead of being used as a pawn in a game between Apple and Google.
"basic browsing experience"
Google pushes out yet another half-baked, poorly considered new feature in Chrome and overnight has mobs chanting about Safari purportedly holding everyone back because of some close to irrelevant fringe thing.
Safari might just be the fastest browser, and it supports a ridiculous, awe-inspiring array of features and standards.
And the greatest indictment of the ridiculous anti-Safari smear is that no platform uses the browser more than iOS users do. iOS users always are over-represented in web usage compared to marketshare.
Google pushes out yet another half-baked, poorly considered new feature in Chrome and overnight has mobs chanting about Safari purportedly holding everyone back because of some close to irrelevant fringe thing.
Safari might just be the fastest browser, and it supports a ridiculous, awe-inspiring array of features and standards.
And the greatest indictment of the ridiculous anti-Safari smear is that no platform uses the browser more than iOS users do. iOS users always are over-represented in web usage compared to marketshare.
You wouldn’t be calling Safari awe inspiring if you had to develop for it. It is hands down the worst browser, filled with application breaking bugs and supports the smallest number of features out of any browser.
Arguably it’s a result of having no competition on iOS.
From idb, webrtc, to scroll to viewheight, to performance issues Safari is the worst to deal with and this is reflected in all the developer surveys.
Arguably it’s a result of having no competition on iOS.
From idb, webrtc, to scroll to viewheight, to performance issues Safari is the worst to deal with and this is reflected in all the developer surveys.
"supports the smallest number of features out of any browser."
This is a bit like saying India has the smallest number of people in countries named China or India.
It's still an enormous number of features, and it is simply extraordinary what is capable in the browser.
"this is reflected in all the developer surveys"
Remember "Made for IE"? IE was dogshit, yet there were loads of devs who thought ActiveX was the bee's knees and having to deal with other browsers and platforms was just an annoyance in their lives.
Developer surveys on this are worthless, and if we listened to developers as a group it would be an entirely Windows world.
This is a bit like saying India has the smallest number of people in countries named China or India.
It's still an enormous number of features, and it is simply extraordinary what is capable in the browser.
"this is reflected in all the developer surveys"
Remember "Made for IE"? IE was dogshit, yet there were loads of devs who thought ActiveX was the bee's knees and having to deal with other browsers and platforms was just an annoyance in their lives.
Developer surveys on this are worthless, and if we listened to developers as a group it would be an entirely Windows world.
> IE was dogshit, yet there were loads of devs who thought ActiveX was the bee's knees and having to deal with other browsers and platforms was just an annoyance in their lives.
I don't think that's true.
There were loads of devs that thought that ActiveX was the quickest route to the best experiences for the largest market segment and having to deal with other browsers and platforms was something the people signing paychecks cared less about, if at all.
I don't think that's true.
There were loads of devs that thought that ActiveX was the quickest route to the best experiences for the largest market segment and having to deal with other browsers and platforms was something the people signing paychecks cared less about, if at all.
We seem to agree entirely.
Many developers would prefer a single, universal browser. A single platform. A single input mechanism (a single development language, compiler, RDBMS, filesystem, cloud provider, backup system, etc). All for obvious, practical reasons, at least in the short term.
That would be devastating for the future, but if it makes projects easier today, many developers are entirely onboard.
That was very much a dominant position among developers in the IE days. Other browsers were a nuisance, and maybe they should just be cut out entirely.
If Safari weren't such an important part of the market, Firefox would have been cut out long ago and we'd be awash in "Made For Chrome (and skinned Chrome)" badges. It is only the economic necessity of supporting iOS users that keeps cross browser development alive.
Many developers would prefer a single, universal browser. A single platform. A single input mechanism (a single development language, compiler, RDBMS, filesystem, cloud provider, backup system, etc). All for obvious, practical reasons, at least in the short term.
That would be devastating for the future, but if it makes projects easier today, many developers are entirely onboard.
That was very much a dominant position among developers in the IE days. Other browsers were a nuisance, and maybe they should just be cut out entirely.
If Safari weren't such an important part of the market, Firefox would have been cut out long ago and we'd be awash in "Made For Chrome (and skinned Chrome)" badges. It is only the economic necessity of supporting iOS users that keeps cross browser development alive.
> That was very much a dominant position among developers in the IE days. Other browsers were a nuisance, and maybe they should just be cut out entirely.
I don't usually resort to personalised dissection of post, but to be frank, you've taken a giant shit all over this subthread so I think it deserves it... this notion of yours seems to be the underlying theme of most all of your comments - that everyone here criticising webkit or Apple must be against browser diversity, be Google proponents, or not value stability, performance and privacy... We are not this caricature... It might be worth your while to take a second to reflect on that assumption and binary view of reality.
I don't usually resort to personalised dissection of post, but to be frank, you've taken a giant shit all over this subthread so I think it deserves it... this notion of yours seems to be the underlying theme of most all of your comments - that everyone here criticising webkit or Apple must be against browser diversity, be Google proponents, or not value stability, performance and privacy... We are not this caricature... It might be worth your while to take a second to reflect on that assumption and binary view of reality.
You have left a number of these meta comments now (a sockpuppet account even appeared to lend you support), apparently that injured that someone disagreed with your comment. To say these add no value is overstating their contribution.
Thanks
Thanks
heh, more insightful perceptions i see... no comment then?
So you obviously don’t build apps for iOS Safari and I can understand as a user why you might be under the misguided impression that it’s a good browser. As our primary target environment it is an uphill battle to get things to work in a way that it’s not on either Firefox or blink based browsers.
It breaks in every major version that’s been released. Simply talk to any developer who has to do a significant amount of work building apps in Safari and they will tell you the same thing.
The webkit team is talented and do great work but this is simply a result of a decade of underfunding and it’s just not possible for them to maintain a modern browser with their current resources.
It breaks in every major version that’s been released. Simply talk to any developer who has to do a significant amount of work building apps in Safari and they will tell you the same thing.
The webkit team is talented and do great work but this is simply a result of a decade of underfunding and it’s just not possible for them to maintain a modern browser with their current resources.
Ignoring that I've been a professional software developer for 26 years, a large part of that building large scale web applications (every one for the past decade+ targeting Safari as well, and before that I always ensured my teams supported alternative browsers even when various team members were moaning and whining about how much a nuisance it is), let me just focus on this-
"misguided impression that it’s a good browser"..."Simply talk to any developer"
Your experience as a developer, and you dealing with utterly trivial regressions or handicaps, has shockingly little bearing on whether it is a "good browser" or not.
"misguided impression that it’s a good browser"..."Simply talk to any developer"
Your experience as a developer, and you dealing with utterly trivial regressions or handicaps, has shockingly little bearing on whether it is a "good browser" or not.
Let me know when Firefox finally supports backdrop-filter. And it already took Chrome forever.
> imply talk to any developer who has to do a significant amount of work building apps in Safari
Don't build "apps" in the browser. Period. It's shitty, underperforming, and breaks all user expectations, regardless of the browser it's running on.
I've yet to see a single app, PWA or not, that wasn't so. Unless it's just a re-skin of a simple website with text and images, and a few forms, but then it's just a website, and if you can't make it run on Safari, go find a different job.
Don't build "apps" in the browser. Period. It's shitty, underperforming, and breaks all user expectations, regardless of the browser it's running on.
I've yet to see a single app, PWA or not, that wasn't so. Unless it's just a re-skin of a simple website with text and images, and a few forms, but then it's just a website, and if you can't make it run on Safari, go find a different job.
This is a misrepresentation, before even getting into lack of modern feature support, webkit introduce a lot of long lived regressions on each release and Apple have changed various behaviours in non-standard ways in Safari over the years then left them broken and unpatched on old devices (looking at you autoheight iframes). This has nothing to do with adopting standards and everything to do with a lack of resources, stagnant release cycle and lack of care and support from Apple.
It's not necessary to talk about chromiums bleeding edge non-standard features, webkit easily has the least support for unopinionated standards released over the last decade and adopted by the other two.
> no platform uses the browser more than iOS users do. iOS users always are over-represented in web usage compared to marketshare.
What point are you trying to make here? iOS users have no choice but to use Safari. If you install firefox or chrome or anything that is a "browser" on an iOS device, it's forced to use Safari webengine underneath, so it's essentially safari with different UI, and this is apparent in the useragent string so any decent stats will show that essentially every iOS user == Safari user.
It's not necessary to talk about chromiums bleeding edge non-standard features, webkit easily has the least support for unopinionated standards released over the last decade and adopted by the other two.
> no platform uses the browser more than iOS users do. iOS users always are over-represented in web usage compared to marketshare.
What point are you trying to make here? iOS users have no choice but to use Safari. If you install firefox or chrome or anything that is a "browser" on an iOS device, it's forced to use Safari webengine underneath, so it's essentially safari with different UI, and this is apparent in the useragent string so any decent stats will show that essentially every iOS user == Safari user.
Lack of modern feature support? This is beyond parody.
"What point are you trying to make here? iOS users have no choice but to use Safari."
Android users use the browser on their device -- any browser -- less than iOS users use their browser(s).
Read the Google corporate propaganda repeated on here, and other platforms provide a web bliss of PWAs, freed from app subservience. Only, not at all.
"What point are you trying to make here? iOS users have no choice but to use Safari."
Android users use the browser on their device -- any browser -- less than iOS users use their browser(s).
Read the Google corporate propaganda repeated on here, and other platforms provide a web bliss of PWAs, freed from app subservience. Only, not at all.
Please keep the hyperbole to a minimum, without technical argument it just encourages flamewars.
Agreed but as a read-only user of HN, I am compelled to say that your comment borders on Reddit-like low brow posts that fills most of their tech subreddits. I come here to get a break from all that and get an idea of purely the technical aspect of stuff.
I have not seen such a great community on the internet before, so if you have any recommendations of forums like HN, it would be great!
I have not seen such a great community on the internet before, so if you have any recommendations of forums like HN, it would be great!
>Lack of modern feature support?
Can't harass users with notifications.
Safari can open a pdf up like a native webpage in a tab. Until one of the Android browsers can do this out of the box (without having to use a ridiculous fork of Firefox so I can install extensions Mozilla doesn't want me to and installing pdf.js extension to use their own project), it will always be the superior browser.
Can't harass users with notifications.
Safari can open a pdf up like a native webpage in a tab. Until one of the Android browsers can do this out of the box (without having to use a ridiculous fork of Firefox so I can install extensions Mozilla doesn't want me to and installing pdf.js extension to use their own project), it will always be the superior browser.
I used to think that I wanted firefox on my iphone (as I use it everywhere else) but I'm happy they are helping to keep google at bay. I have to say a lot of developers don't understand that they aren't the center of the universe and I don't really care if supporting safari based browsers is still a must and makes their lives a bit harder. It's rough for all of us out of here, as an embedded developer I have to work around proprietary crap all the time and yet I've been doing it for almost 2 decades and I'm still okay mentally and physically and they will be too.
[deleted]
Last I checked, iOS users use their phones way more than Android users period, including the browser. That plus (probably relatedly, though other factors are also in play) spending habits are why so many apps choose to go iOS-first, or to prioritize iOS Safari compatibility over Android for web sites or web apps.
On the other hand, a lot of the stuff Google adds to Blink and tries to push as a standard is often outright bad (e.g. FLoC, WebUSB).
This is true, but not a defence of Apple's behaviour. To be clear I don't think chromium is a panacea either, but Apple has not exactly been webkit's friend and is only keeping a 3rd player barely alive as a side-effect. They are both bad in opposite ways.
If webkit was liberated from Apple I think it would ultimately benefit chromium as well.
If webkit was liberated from Apple I think it would ultimately benefit chromium as well.
The Safari/WebKit team has made a great deal of improvements over the last couple of versions. I think "compatible enough" has turned into a good "basically the same as Firefox" when it comes to web standards with the release of Safari 15 and 15.1.
I also support the stance that certain features should remain focused where they belong e.g. natively installed apps. But who can decide what should be a web standard and what shouldn't... it's hard to say. I think having a healthy governance and enforcement body is a prerequisite before we look at technical specifics.
I also support the stance that certain features should remain focused where they belong e.g. natively installed apps. But who can decide what should be a web standard and what shouldn't... it's hard to say. I think having a healthy governance and enforcement body is a prerequisite before we look at technical specifics.
Exactly. Not much of an Apple or Safari supporter but credit where credit's due Safari 13-15 has made more improvement each version than previous Safari. If they keep up the pace Safari 16 should be very close to current Chrome and Firefox.
https://developer.apple.com/safari/technology-preview/releas...
https://developer.apple.com/safari/technology-preview/releas...
Safari and Firefox have always been close: https://web-confluence.appspot.com/#!/confluence
The vocal minority is a very tiny percentage of web developers who believe that whatever Chrome spits out is the bees knees, the modern standard, and all browsers must immediately have that.
The vocal minority is a very tiny percentage of web developers who believe that whatever Chrome spits out is the bees knees, the modern standard, and all browsers must immediately have that.
there are also other companies working on webkit, e.g, sony.
Apple's investment in safari/webkit goes up and down. They've actually made a lot of investments since 2019 or so. Probably less so for the previous 6 years before that. But again, webkit was very innovative in the early 2010s
Apple's investment in safari/webkit goes up and down. They've actually made a lot of investments since 2019 or so. Probably less so for the previous 6 years before that. But again, webkit was very innovative in the early 2010s
This list of standards also shows how Google attempts to make it even more impossible for anyone but them to maintain a browser. Shape detection API ? Seriously ? Picture-in-picture as a standard when it should be up to the OS/browser ? having the <input type="image"/> perform resizing and compression ?
They’re copying the old Microsoft playbook. Add so many APIs - the more complex the better - that nobody will be able to copy them all.
Joel Spolsky called it fire and motion.[1]
[1] https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/01/06/fire-and-motion/
[1] https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/01/06/fire-and-motion/
We can thank WebKit and Apple's policy around it on iOS for suppressing and holding back these attempts, as sites on average still _need_ to work on an iPhone.
Shape detection is to have predictable QR code scanning across web apps, PiP as a browser API is necessary to enable it cross-platform. And image transformations are to try and collapse 100 js libraries of varying quality into a feature that people clearly want.
I’m a huge proponent of platforms aiming to be stable and largely not messing with shit but it has to be feature complete first.
I’m a huge proponent of platforms aiming to be stable and largely not messing with shit but it has to be feature complete first.
It's hard to believe Mozilla will do much considering 90% of their revenue comes from Google.
for better or worse, Apple has been the single biggest driver towards privacy enhancement.
for better or worse, Apple has been the single biggest driver towards privacy enhancement.
Why do people keep saying this when Mozilla is and has already been vocally fighting against Google's overreaching proposals?
There's new headlines about this every few months.
https://blog.mozilla.org/en/privacy-security/privacy-analysi...
https://www.howtogeek.com/756338/mozilla-says-chromes-latest...
There's also this:
https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2020/08/04/latest-firefox-roll...
https://twitter.com/__jakub_g/status/1365400306767581185
And the top comment of the hacker news thread associated with that last link?
>My friend who works in an adtech company:
>"Protip: Use Firefox instead of Chrome. We get very little data from Firefox users"
There's new headlines about this every few months.
https://blog.mozilla.org/en/privacy-security/privacy-analysi...
https://www.howtogeek.com/756338/mozilla-says-chromes-latest...
There's also this:
https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2020/08/04/latest-firefox-roll...
https://twitter.com/__jakub_g/status/1365400306767581185
And the top comment of the hacker news thread associated with that last link?
>My friend who works in an adtech company:
>"Protip: Use Firefox instead of Chrome. We get very little data from Firefox users"
[deleted]
Because of such an apparent conflict of interest. At the end of the day we do not know how many good ideas (for the users, for the web and for Firefox market share) were silenced because not to upset the feeding arm. And where would Firefox be today if it relied on its own users for the revenue instead?
Having your main competitor as your main customer is not a good position to be in for any company.
Having your main competitor as your main customer is not a good position to be in for any company.
Yes but nobody on HN has ever - ever - come up with a better funding model for them. It's all complaints all the time and people don't even seem to bother researching what they have been doing lately.
It's also fun to watch people complain about the Google situation and then, 10 seconds later, complain about "side projects" which are actual independent sources of revenue.
I don't envy the market dynamics of their situation. Selling FOSS is hard to begin with, and it's even harder in a market that is utterly commoditized by players 1000x larger than yourself, and it's even harder if your niche (privacy) rules out nearly every funding option apart from the search deals with Google.
It's also fun to watch people complain about the Google situation and then, 10 seconds later, complain about "side projects" which are actual independent sources of revenue.
I don't envy the market dynamics of their situation. Selling FOSS is hard to begin with, and it's even harder in a market that is utterly commoditized by players 1000x larger than yourself, and it's even harder if your niche (privacy) rules out nearly every funding option apart from the search deals with Google.
A better funding model is right in front of our eyes and is used by almost every other company - sell the product to the users. There is no rule saying that a browser needs to be directly or indirectly monetized by ads. On the contrary, in this day and age, not helping sell more ads would surely be seen as a good thing? So if the browser is that good as a product, it surely will be paid by a percentage of its current users, no?
10M Firefox users paying $50/year would yield same amount of revenue as 200M users monetized with a Google deal. Now, would 5% Firefox users convert to paid users is a different question. If not, then perhaps Firefox as a product (or as an idea) may not be as good. But I think they would, and even if the percentage is lower, it would at least set Firefox free. And that is a good position to be in for any company.
10M Firefox users paying $50/year would yield same amount of revenue as 200M users monetized with a Google deal. Now, would 5% Firefox users convert to paid users is a different question. If not, then perhaps Firefox as a product (or as an idea) may not be as good. But I think they would, and even if the percentage is lower, it would at least set Firefox free. And that is a good position to be in for any company.
Mozilla have been losing market share when the barrier to entry is "install this free alternative to your existing browser" the chance that they could succeed with "buy this paid alternative to your existing browser" is approaching zero.
Opera was paid at one point, they lost the competition with free alternatives.
Paid browsers are a concept that has been and gone, and if Mozilla attempted to bring the idea back, it would probably be the stupidest decision Mozilla had ever made. They have made plenty of stupid decisions, but nothing so far has utterly destroyed their market share instantly, this would.
In the end, the funding model alone doesn't define how a company acts. It matters, and is certainly a threat to Mozilla's neutrality, but Mozilla tends to hire developers who care about thier mission, they tend towards openness in their processes. Both these things protect Mozilla from becoming a Google shill despite their funding process.
If Mozilla ever backed Google on the wrong decision, I trust that many Mozilla devs would push back - either internally or by going to the press, even if it cost their jobs. Being a particularly successful open source project tends to select for a certain kind of employee.
Apple devs don't have this advantage - Apple has a culture of secrecy (for prefectly understandable buisness reasons, they don't like leaks), this means Apple's decisions are much harder to monitor, and Apple devs are much less likely to fight internal decisions that hurt the web as a whole.
That said, Apple does have its own incentives to fight Google which are also legitimate - a more independent funding model, and an intense dislike within their internal culture of relying on external vendors for their software and apis. There's a reason Apple develop their own browser, their own compiler, their own dev environment, their own everything. There's a history to that, Apple have been bitten by externally controlled systems, so they are very unlikely to jump to Chrome, probably even moreso than Mozilla.
The point is, both Mozilla and Apple have good and bad elements to their continued position providing alternative browser engines, both are strong in their own ways, and we're vastly better off with the benefits of both than with just 1 of them, either would be a major loss.
Opera was paid at one point, they lost the competition with free alternatives.
Paid browsers are a concept that has been and gone, and if Mozilla attempted to bring the idea back, it would probably be the stupidest decision Mozilla had ever made. They have made plenty of stupid decisions, but nothing so far has utterly destroyed their market share instantly, this would.
In the end, the funding model alone doesn't define how a company acts. It matters, and is certainly a threat to Mozilla's neutrality, but Mozilla tends to hire developers who care about thier mission, they tend towards openness in their processes. Both these things protect Mozilla from becoming a Google shill despite their funding process.
If Mozilla ever backed Google on the wrong decision, I trust that many Mozilla devs would push back - either internally or by going to the press, even if it cost their jobs. Being a particularly successful open source project tends to select for a certain kind of employee.
Apple devs don't have this advantage - Apple has a culture of secrecy (for prefectly understandable buisness reasons, they don't like leaks), this means Apple's decisions are much harder to monitor, and Apple devs are much less likely to fight internal decisions that hurt the web as a whole.
That said, Apple does have its own incentives to fight Google which are also legitimate - a more independent funding model, and an intense dislike within their internal culture of relying on external vendors for their software and apis. There's a reason Apple develop their own browser, their own compiler, their own dev environment, their own everything. There's a history to that, Apple have been bitten by externally controlled systems, so they are very unlikely to jump to Chrome, probably even moreso than Mozilla.
The point is, both Mozilla and Apple have good and bad elements to their continued position providing alternative browser engines, both are strong in their own ways, and we're vastly better off with the benefits of both than with just 1 of them, either would be a major loss.
>10M Firefox users paying $50/year would yield same amount of revenue
The only way that works is if they abandoned the entire Firefox codebase and made another Chrome clone.
Even in their diminished state they still have 220 million monthly-active-users. With only 10 million, they'd have no leverage in the web standards groups, and no leverage with web developers. The Blink monoculture would be well and truly complete.
Plus I'd bet hard cash that even most HN readers wouldn't pay $50 a year for a web browser. Good luck finding 10 million.
The only way that works is if they abandoned the entire Firefox codebase and made another Chrome clone.
Even in their diminished state they still have 220 million monthly-active-users. With only 10 million, they'd have no leverage in the web standards groups, and no leverage with web developers. The Blink monoculture would be well and truly complete.
Plus I'd bet hard cash that even most HN readers wouldn't pay $50 a year for a web browser. Good luck finding 10 million.
> Plus I'd bet hard cash that even most HN readers wouldn't pay $50 a year for a web browser. Good luck finding 10 million.
I disagree. 50M people (including myself) already pay $12/mo ($144/year) for YouTube Premium [1], basically so they do not see the ads even though a completely free alternative is available. (this also tells us you need just one 'killer' feature)
And a browser, executed right, is arguably a much more valuable product. It is where we spend most of our day in. It is what we use to work and create value for companies we work at. So 10M people at $5/mo should not require such a stretch of imagination. The only question is is Firefox that good as a browser right now, and what would need to change?
Besides what is the alternative for Firefox? What good does its leverage in web standards group bring it? Even at the price of free, it is losing tens of millions of users every year and the death spiral of user attrition will drive its market share to the ground eventually. It clearly signals a need for a radical turn.
[1] https://www.theverge.com/2021/9/2/22654318/youtube-50-millio...
I disagree. 50M people (including myself) already pay $12/mo ($144/year) for YouTube Premium [1], basically so they do not see the ads even though a completely free alternative is available. (this also tells us you need just one 'killer' feature)
And a browser, executed right, is arguably a much more valuable product. It is where we spend most of our day in. It is what we use to work and create value for companies we work at. So 10M people at $5/mo should not require such a stretch of imagination. The only question is is Firefox that good as a browser right now, and what would need to change?
Besides what is the alternative for Firefox? What good does its leverage in web standards group bring it? Even at the price of free, it is losing tens of millions of users every year and the death spiral of user attrition will drive its market share to the ground eventually. It clearly signals a need for a radical turn.
[1] https://www.theverge.com/2021/9/2/22654318/youtube-50-millio...
You are arguing that people "should" pay based on value.
This is a competitive market. There are reasonable alternatives. Cost to switch is low. Economics 101 (literally that class!) says that the price in that situation is going to be based on competition (for the companies/producers that survive), and the price of the competition is $0.
(It's actually not, you're paying with slightly less personal data for Firefox than the alternatives, and there are substantial externalities like the effects of monoculture, but none of that is going to change the big picture.)
Not only are you not going to get a critical mass of people willing to pay, but also those who are willing to pay will feel massively entitled, and will abandon your product when it changes in any way they don't like.
The only way to make it work would be to provide some value that cannot be replicated by competitors, in order to add switching costs and reduce the fidelity of alternatives. And for that to be relevant to Mozilla, it must also be compatible with the mission of an open web.
Good luck with that.
This is a competitive market. There are reasonable alternatives. Cost to switch is low. Economics 101 (literally that class!) says that the price in that situation is going to be based on competition (for the companies/producers that survive), and the price of the competition is $0.
(It's actually not, you're paying with slightly less personal data for Firefox than the alternatives, and there are substantial externalities like the effects of monoculture, but none of that is going to change the big picture.)
Not only are you not going to get a critical mass of people willing to pay, but also those who are willing to pay will feel massively entitled, and will abandon your product when it changes in any way they don't like.
The only way to make it work would be to provide some value that cannot be replicated by competitors, in order to add switching costs and reduce the fidelity of alternatives. And for that to be relevant to Mozilla, it must also be compatible with the mission of an open web.
Good luck with that.
> You are arguing that people "should" pay based on value.
I believe I am arguing that we underestimate the willingness of people to part with their money when there is a right product.
> Cost to switch is low. Economics 101 (literally that class!) says that the price in that situation is going to be based on competition (for the companies/producers that survive), and the price of the competition is $0.
Not sure whether we live in different times, but isn't the same with YouTube? The cost to watch is $0, and you can even watch it ad-free for $0 with a free ad-blocker, yet 50 million people still choose to pay $12/mo for YouTube Premium.
>Not only are you not going to get a critical mass of people willing to pay,
I think you are speculating, so let me speculate as well. If Firefox does not make a radical turn, it will become irrelevant in 3-5 years.
> but also those who are willing to pay will feel massively entitled
With YT Premium, the one thing I request is that the one killer feature that I pay for (no ads) works reliably. So yes, I can agree that users will feel massively entitled to get what they paid for, but that is up to Firefox to define and control.
> The only way to make it work would be to provide some value that cannot be replicated by competitors
I agree! Firefox lost a lot of the product innovation and leadership mindset it had until roughly 2010-2011. Bringing that back would help (and the right business model could do it).
> And for that to be relevant to Mozilla, it must also be compatible with the mission of an open web.
How does making Google a default search engine in Firefox help that mission? Firefox should do it because it believes Google is the best default choice for their users and the open web, not because it gets paid to do it (if compatibility with its mission is what Firefox is striving for).
I believe I am arguing that we underestimate the willingness of people to part with their money when there is a right product.
> Cost to switch is low. Economics 101 (literally that class!) says that the price in that situation is going to be based on competition (for the companies/producers that survive), and the price of the competition is $0.
Not sure whether we live in different times, but isn't the same with YouTube? The cost to watch is $0, and you can even watch it ad-free for $0 with a free ad-blocker, yet 50 million people still choose to pay $12/mo for YouTube Premium.
>Not only are you not going to get a critical mass of people willing to pay,
I think you are speculating, so let me speculate as well. If Firefox does not make a radical turn, it will become irrelevant in 3-5 years.
> but also those who are willing to pay will feel massively entitled
With YT Premium, the one thing I request is that the one killer feature that I pay for (no ads) works reliably. So yes, I can agree that users will feel massively entitled to get what they paid for, but that is up to Firefox to define and control.
> The only way to make it work would be to provide some value that cannot be replicated by competitors
I agree! Firefox lost a lot of the product innovation and leadership mindset it had until roughly 2010-2011. Bringing that back would help (and the right business model could do it).
> And for that to be relevant to Mozilla, it must also be compatible with the mission of an open web.
How does making Google a default search engine in Firefox help that mission? Firefox should do it because it believes Google is the best default choice for their users and the open web, not because it gets paid to do it (if compatibility with its mission is what Firefox is striving for).
>Not sure whether we live in different times, but isn't the same with YouTube? The cost to watch is $0, and you can even watch it ad-free for $0 with a free ad-blocker, yet 50 million people still choose to pay $12/mo for YouTube Premium.
Isn't that more about information asymmetry than value proposition?
Blocking YouTube ads with the appropriate add-ons for free isn't necessarily that well known, except among the tech savvy.
While some tech savvy folks may choose to pay rather than use such add-ons is one thing, but the "great unwashed masses" don't have information about such add-ons, perhaps encouraging them to purchase something they wouldn't purchase if there was more perfect information availability in the market.
I'm not claiming that's the case, but it seems a reasonable supposition.
Isn't that more about information asymmetry than value proposition?
Blocking YouTube ads with the appropriate add-ons for free isn't necessarily that well known, except among the tech savvy.
While some tech savvy folks may choose to pay rather than use such add-ons is one thing, but the "great unwashed masses" don't have information about such add-ons, perhaps encouraging them to purchase something they wouldn't purchase if there was more perfect information availability in the market.
I'm not claiming that's the case, but it seems a reasonable supposition.
Potentially yes, but hard to believe that a $7bn business exists only because of lack of information. I certainly don't lack the information and few other people from my circle that also pay for it so it is hard for me to scale from there.
> yet 50 million people still choose to pay $12/mo for YouTube Premium.
Yes, because de facto YouTube has no viable competitors, so I am not feeling that analogy.
If I want to watch YouTube videos specifically, I have to go to YouTube. People don't use YouTube because they necessarily like the experience of how YT does things, they use it because it has the content users want. Browsers aren't like that. Both Firefox and Chrome on a high level provide the exact same content.
Sidenote: adblockers and such are nice, but, as others have pointed out alread, non-tech savvy users won't bother. And the situation on mobile devices and smart TVs (which account for a growing percentage of YT consumption) have a pretty non-simple adblocker story (or non-existent, if we are talking about using native YT app on a mobile network).
Yes, because de facto YouTube has no viable competitors, so I am not feeling that analogy.
If I want to watch YouTube videos specifically, I have to go to YouTube. People don't use YouTube because they necessarily like the experience of how YT does things, they use it because it has the content users want. Browsers aren't like that. Both Firefox and Chrome on a high level provide the exact same content.
Sidenote: adblockers and such are nice, but, as others have pointed out alread, non-tech savvy users won't bother. And the situation on mobile devices and smart TVs (which account for a growing percentage of YT consumption) have a pretty non-simple adblocker story (or non-existent, if we are talking about using native YT app on a mobile network).
I'd be curious how many were just Play Music that rolled over into YouTube Premium. I'm not sure it would do as well if it dropped the music streaming.
Here's the one I have always touted:
They could build themselves to be the independent alternative to conglomerates.
They could be the alternative, offering services above and beyond the browser. I think their VPN service has been a modest success for them. I'd love for them to have moved into the same space as say, 1Password and other cloud based services of that nature. They are the independent 3rd party that works on all platforms. That is what I think their position could be. They're a trusted entity with known good track record of caring about privacy and their users, why wouldn't they move into markets where its a natural extension of this is a win?
They could build themselves to be the independent alternative to conglomerates.
They could be the alternative, offering services above and beyond the browser. I think their VPN service has been a modest success for them. I'd love for them to have moved into the same space as say, 1Password and other cloud based services of that nature. They are the independent 3rd party that works on all platforms. That is what I think their position could be. They're a trusted entity with known good track record of caring about privacy and their users, why wouldn't they move into markets where its a natural extension of this is a win?
I think Brave is a good model for developing alternative, independent revenue streams. They're helped in large part by having a community that understands the need for it, a lot of the vocal Firefox fanbase seems to want an independent browser engine and service backend run and distributed as donationware.
Business model wise, Brave is same thing as Google just at a smaller scale. Their revenue stream is still ad monetization, just it happens that it does not come from Google (although it is curious that on default settings, Brave's ad blocker does not block Google ads?).
And what does the world look like if Brave "wins" (meaning becoming Google size)? Still ads everywhere, just Brave gets to pick them.
Worth noting is that people would run ad-blockers even if all ads in the world are privacy-respecting. Users simply do not want ads on the web pages and eating the bandwidth.
And what does the world look like if Brave "wins" (meaning becoming Google size)? Still ads everywhere, just Brave gets to pick them.
Worth noting is that people would run ad-blockers even if all ads in the world are privacy-respecting. Users simply do not want ads on the web pages and eating the bandwidth.
> Business model wise, Brave is same thing as Google just at a smaller scale
> if Brave "wins" […] Still ads everywhere, just Brave gets to pick them
No, Google’s business model is gathering humanity’s largest hoard of data and monetizing that through targeted advertizing. Brave doesn’t show any of their most traditional ads unless the user explicitly opts in, and then it doesn’t come with comparable tracking.
> if Brave "wins" […] Still ads everywhere, just Brave gets to pick them
No, Google’s business model is gathering humanity’s largest hoard of data and monetizing that through targeted advertizing. Brave doesn’t show any of their most traditional ads unless the user explicitly opts in, and then it doesn’t come with comparable tracking.
> Brave doesn’t show a single ad unless the user explicitly opts in, and then it doesn’t come with comparable tracking.
I have what looks like a promotion for Crypto.com, Binance, Gemini and FTX.us in Brave browser, on default settings even though I never turned them on. For few of these I never heard and I certainly do not have any interest in crypto. Not sure why these would even belong in a web browser on default settings unless there is some kind of a deal/partnership going on?
Both Google and Brave have the same business model. They make money when a user clicks on an ad.
The execution may differ and maybe only because Brave is still new and relatively small and did not feel the same kind of shareholder pressure Google withstood for the last 20 years. That is why I said, imagine a world in which Brave "won". It would not be the same company it is now (compare Google from 2000 to Google today).
I have what looks like a promotion for Crypto.com, Binance, Gemini and FTX.us in Brave browser, on default settings even though I never turned them on. For few of these I never heard and I certainly do not have any interest in crypto. Not sure why these would even belong in a web browser on default settings unless there is some kind of a deal/partnership going on?
Both Google and Brave have the same business model. They make money when a user clicks on an ad.
The execution may differ and maybe only because Brave is still new and relatively small and did not feel the same kind of shareholder pressure Google withstood for the last 20 years. That is why I said, imagine a world in which Brave "won". It would not be the same company it is now (compare Google from 2000 to Google today).
Fair enough, I’ve edited my comment (I haven’t used Brave besides ~2 hours of trial months ago — I won’t use any Chromium browser more than that when I can help it — but that’s no excuse to leave misinformation up). Still, those promotions are more in line with the ones that Firefox is filled with (Pocket, Google and Amazon search, etc.), not really the same type of thing as Google’s banners and youtube autoplay videos, and AIUI they only track the referral source (Brave) not the individual user (a defining distinction IMO).
Brave has at least two kinds of ads at present: Sponsored new tab page backgrounds, and user-controlled mechanism that delivers ads as toaster popups. The sponsored backgrounds are on by default, the popups are not. The toaster popups have a revenue share thing where Brave gives a cut of its ad profits to users so they can use Brave's tipping service to benefit creators.
Brave Talk and Brave News are ad-funded as well but I haven't tried them so it's hard to say.
Brave Talk and Brave News are ad-funded as well but I haven't tried them so it's hard to say.
Brave does ad-hijacking and has been caught hijacking referral links in the past. I'm not sure I would call their model "good".
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23442027
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23442027
Ad-hijacking?
The referral code thing was a bug that got fixed - the intended function was Firefox Suggest-esque sponsored links from a local directory when you typed a word but not a complete url, eg. "binance". The bug was that it gave you a suggestion for complete, legit urls too (eg. "binance.us") and put the suggestion at the top. The bug was fixed to make the feature work as intended, and the feature is turned off by default.
The referral code thing was a bug that got fixed - the intended function was Firefox Suggest-esque sponsored links from a local directory when you typed a word but not a complete url, eg. "binance". The bug was that it gave you a suggestion for complete, legit urls too (eg. "binance.us") and put the suggestion at the top. The bug was fixed to make the feature work as intended, and the feature is turned off by default.
Brave replaces the ads from the website with its own ads.
I don't totally understand how people think Brave is against ad-tech, when it is very much an ad-tech company making money primarily from ads, and secondly from its crypto ownership in BAT.
Brave does a lot of user tracking, but it says it anonymizes it, which hopefully it does, but it still tracks all your behavior.
It is still a cool model, but very much ad-tech and ad-based.
I don't totally understand how people think Brave is against ad-tech, when it is very much an ad-tech company making money primarily from ads, and secondly from its crypto ownership in BAT.
Brave does a lot of user tracking, but it says it anonymizes it, which hopefully it does, but it still tracks all your behavior.
It is still a cool model, but very much ad-tech and ad-based.
Of course they're not against ad tech, they are an ad agency. They just think there's a market for a privacy-respecting setup, is all. And I think they're right in that.
As far as web ads go, a lot of people's objection to them is not seeing ads (though the ads themselves can obviously be very invasive and bothersome), but to things like tracking and fingerprinting, which the company is adamantly against. The attempt is to have ads, but also have privacy, which IMO is the correct move. It's not like we can run everything on subscriptions.
> Brave replaces the ads from the website with its own ads.
This is not exactly true. They have separate functions for an adblocker, an ad delivery system that's entirely separate from the websites you visit, and a tipping system for sending BAT to creators.
I'm not terribly fond of crypto, so I use Brave as essentially a degoogled Chromium with a built-in adblocker that won't get fucked over by Manifest v3 (since it's not an extension) and is available on mobile, and who run an independent end to end encrypted sync service. It's pretty nice.
As far as web ads go, a lot of people's objection to them is not seeing ads (though the ads themselves can obviously be very invasive and bothersome), but to things like tracking and fingerprinting, which the company is adamantly against. The attempt is to have ads, but also have privacy, which IMO is the correct move. It's not like we can run everything on subscriptions.
> Brave replaces the ads from the website with its own ads.
This is not exactly true. They have separate functions for an adblocker, an ad delivery system that's entirely separate from the websites you visit, and a tipping system for sending BAT to creators.
I'm not terribly fond of crypto, so I use Brave as essentially a degoogled Chromium with a built-in adblocker that won't get fucked over by Manifest v3 (since it's not an extension) and is available on mobile, and who run an independent end to end encrypted sync service. It's pretty nice.
>A better funding model is right in front of our eyes and is used by almost every other company
An even better "funding model" would be a non-profit entity with no additional agenda beyond providing an anti-adtech browser to the world. I'm guessing that there are a lot of people who would donate their time and money to thwarting the overreach of adtech.
An even better "funding model" would be a non-profit entity with no additional agenda beyond providing an anti-adtech browser to the world. I'm guessing that there are a lot of people who would donate their time and money to thwarting the overreach of adtech.
Isn't Firefox the proof that this isn't the case?
How about this for a funding model: tie executive compensation to revenue growth.
Mozilla has had five fold increases in CEO compensation over the last fifteen years, as Firefox market share has gone down six fold. Firefox had ~30% market share in the mid 2000's, and now it has less than five percent market share. Safari has twice the market share Firefox does, by some metrics.
Mozilla has literally paid its CEOs fantastical salaries for driving the company into the ground.
Mitchell Baker made $2.5M in 2018 and now in 2021 she's making over $3M.
Mozilla laid of nearly 300 employees post pandemic because of declining revenue.
Being a browser company and seeing declining revenue during a period when damn near every tech company was printing money because everyone hopped online...that's a real special kind of incompetence.
Then there's the fact that Mozilla insists on having multiple offices in probably the most expensive real estate markets in the world. San Fran, Paris, Toronto, Portland? Not just that, but look at where the offices are. I'm not suggesting Mozilla move out to the burbs, but...the offices are dead-center downtown.
If Mozilla moved those offices about a mile or two from the city centers (or shut most of them down - there's no reason to have THREE west-coast offices, especially post-pandemic), and adjusted C-suite salaries to be indexed to growth, I think that would be a great "funding model."
Mozilla has had five fold increases in CEO compensation over the last fifteen years, as Firefox market share has gone down six fold. Firefox had ~30% market share in the mid 2000's, and now it has less than five percent market share. Safari has twice the market share Firefox does, by some metrics.
Mozilla has literally paid its CEOs fantastical salaries for driving the company into the ground.
Mitchell Baker made $2.5M in 2018 and now in 2021 she's making over $3M.
Mozilla laid of nearly 300 employees post pandemic because of declining revenue.
Being a browser company and seeing declining revenue during a period when damn near every tech company was printing money because everyone hopped online...that's a real special kind of incompetence.
Then there's the fact that Mozilla insists on having multiple offices in probably the most expensive real estate markets in the world. San Fran, Paris, Toronto, Portland? Not just that, but look at where the offices are. I'm not suggesting Mozilla move out to the burbs, but...the offices are dead-center downtown.
If Mozilla moved those offices about a mile or two from the city centers (or shut most of them down - there's no reason to have THREE west-coast offices, especially post-pandemic), and adjusted C-suite salaries to be indexed to growth, I think that would be a great "funding model."
> How about this for a funding model: tie executive compensation to revenue growth.
I'm not sure this would go quite the way you think. The quick numbers I could find are $104 million in revenue for 2009 [1], $828 million in revenue for 2019 [2]. Your market share percentages sound about right, though (and is more relevant to the success of the mission.)
> Being a browser company and seeing declining revenue during a period when damn near every tech company was printing money because everyone hopped online...that's a real special kind of incompetence.
I would agree, if I were to completely ignore the existence of competition and all other forms of external reality. I mean, look at the size of the computer market these days. What were Cray, SGI, DEC, Commodore, etc thinking? They must have all been unbelievably incompetent!
Sure, the results are not good. It is perhaps true that you personally could have done far better. Maybe you should give it a try, in some other market where a little company called Google decides to move in on your territory.
> Mitchell Baker made $2.5M in 2018 and now in 2021 she's making over $3M.
She's CEO of a company with a revenue of $800M USD. What should the CEO's compensation be? Is $3M too high or too low? Personally, I honestly don't know. My perception is that CEOs are generally paid large sums of money until they're fired. Perhaps that's not the way it should be in an ideal world.
> Mozilla laid of nearly 300 employees post pandemic because of declining revenue.
Yeah, that sucks. It really sucks. (I work at Mozilla.) Though for the record, we're not post pandemic.
Still, when your burn rate is too high for your income, you have to do something. In some markets, it might make sense to go for broke: borrow to fund scaling, and pray a lot. In the browser market, that would be incredibly stupid. You can't crush your competitors with a $0 product and a compatibility moat that it is your mission to minimize, especially when your main competitor is many times your size.
> ...office rant...
Thanks to COVID, the offices are indeed getting pruned down. But you seem to place a lot of faith in your ability to armchair quarterback. Those offices provided value (partly as a result of their locations), they incurred costs, and people did the math on them. You can assume rank incompetence, but why?
[1] https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/annualreport/2009/f... [2] https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/annualreport/2019/
I'm not sure this would go quite the way you think. The quick numbers I could find are $104 million in revenue for 2009 [1], $828 million in revenue for 2019 [2]. Your market share percentages sound about right, though (and is more relevant to the success of the mission.)
> Being a browser company and seeing declining revenue during a period when damn near every tech company was printing money because everyone hopped online...that's a real special kind of incompetence.
I would agree, if I were to completely ignore the existence of competition and all other forms of external reality. I mean, look at the size of the computer market these days. What were Cray, SGI, DEC, Commodore, etc thinking? They must have all been unbelievably incompetent!
Sure, the results are not good. It is perhaps true that you personally could have done far better. Maybe you should give it a try, in some other market where a little company called Google decides to move in on your territory.
> Mitchell Baker made $2.5M in 2018 and now in 2021 she's making over $3M.
She's CEO of a company with a revenue of $800M USD. What should the CEO's compensation be? Is $3M too high or too low? Personally, I honestly don't know. My perception is that CEOs are generally paid large sums of money until they're fired. Perhaps that's not the way it should be in an ideal world.
> Mozilla laid of nearly 300 employees post pandemic because of declining revenue.
Yeah, that sucks. It really sucks. (I work at Mozilla.) Though for the record, we're not post pandemic.
Still, when your burn rate is too high for your income, you have to do something. In some markets, it might make sense to go for broke: borrow to fund scaling, and pray a lot. In the browser market, that would be incredibly stupid. You can't crush your competitors with a $0 product and a compatibility moat that it is your mission to minimize, especially when your main competitor is many times your size.
> ...office rant...
Thanks to COVID, the offices are indeed getting pruned down. But you seem to place a lot of faith in your ability to armchair quarterback. Those offices provided value (partly as a result of their locations), they incurred costs, and people did the math on them. You can assume rank incompetence, but why?
[1] https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/annualreport/2009/f... [2] https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/annualreport/2019/
> You can't crush your competitors with a $0 product and a compatibility moat that it is your mission to minimize, especially when your main competitor is many times your size.
By definition, Firefox is not a $0 product - it is a $500M product, the product name is called primary search engine placement and it has exactly one customer, that also happens to be its main competitor and archrival.
The very fact that user != customer is where most of Firefox problems stem from (IMO). Turning users into customers is a correct (and only) way for Firefox to become independent and achieve a position from which it can really deliver on its mission.
By definition, Firefox is not a $0 product - it is a $500M product, the product name is called primary search engine placement and it has exactly one customer, that also happens to be its main competitor and archrival.
The very fact that user != customer is where most of Firefox problems stem from (IMO). Turning users into customers is a correct (and only) way for Firefox to become independent and achieve a position from which it can really deliver on its mission.
I think "post pandemic" there means "after the pandemic drove everyone to WFH anyway", not "especially after the pandemic is over" (which would be an argument for more local offices, not less).
Ah, your interpretation makes much more sense, and upon rereading I believe that you're right.
I may have been confused because I know some surprising things about how search ad revenue did at different points in the pandemic, so I overthought things. (I don't know if those numbers are public or not, so I won't be more specific.)
I may have been confused because I know some surprising things about how search ad revenue did at different points in the pandemic, so I overthought things. (I don't know if those numbers are public or not, so I won't be more specific.)
1) Save most of the Google bucks rather than spending them on bloating your org to at least 3x the size it has any reason to be,
2) Invest your saved Google bucks,
3) After a few years you can drop Google for a decade or two and coast entirely on savings + investment income while being beholden to no-one. Maybe indefinitely, depending on how well it goes and how lean you keep your spending.
The alternative would have been putting all that extra staff to work on paid products that didn't suck and were in demand. Firefox could have built an open-source Slack alternative with optional, slick, easy-onboarding paid hosting, for instance. Not that big a stretch. And that's on the boring-and-safe side of things they might have done. Truly, they might have done anything worthwhile with the time and huge amounts of money they had, to gain future independence. Instead, they did... the stuff they did.
2) Invest your saved Google bucks,
3) After a few years you can drop Google for a decade or two and coast entirely on savings + investment income while being beholden to no-one. Maybe indefinitely, depending on how well it goes and how lean you keep your spending.
The alternative would have been putting all that extra staff to work on paid products that didn't suck and were in demand. Firefox could have built an open-source Slack alternative with optional, slick, easy-onboarding paid hosting, for instance. Not that big a stretch. And that's on the boring-and-safe side of things they might have done. Truly, they might have done anything worthwhile with the time and huge amounts of money they had, to gain future independence. Instead, they did... the stuff they did.
> Save most of the Google bucks rather than spending them on bloating your org to at least 3x the size it has any reason to be,
But then there would be no money for Mozilla's social justice initiatives.
But then there would be no money for Mozilla's social justice initiatives.
> Selling FOSS is hard to begin with
Also worth noting is that Firefox is not in the business of selling FOSS, it is (currently) in the business of selling primary search engine placement.
Also worth noting is that Firefox is not in the business of selling FOSS, it is (currently) in the business of selling primary search engine placement.
Maybe because Mozilla collects a massive amount of "telemetry" on users, in a way that is personally identifiable, despite zero need for it to be so?
https://firefox-source-docs.mozilla.org/toolkit/components/t...
Or maybe it's because you can toss some money at Mozilla and they'll silently install a browser extension on behalf of an advertising company for a shitty TV show about a l33t haxx0r d00d?
By the way, the bugzilla report about that particular incident was locked, then made employee-only, then made public again...then restricted beyond employee-only...by a project manager...who used to work for advertising companies before she came over to Mozilla.
Or how about the fact that flipping on some of the anti-tracking features include munging the timezone, which means times in almost any website are wrong - which seems to be a poison pill to keep people from turning it on?
Edit with details regarding the extension controversy: https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/16/16784628/mozilla-mr-robo...
https://firefox-source-docs.mozilla.org/toolkit/components/t...
Or maybe it's because you can toss some money at Mozilla and they'll silently install a browser extension on behalf of an advertising company for a shitty TV show about a l33t haxx0r d00d?
By the way, the bugzilla report about that particular incident was locked, then made employee-only, then made public again...then restricted beyond employee-only...by a project manager...who used to work for advertising companies before she came over to Mozilla.
Or how about the fact that flipping on some of the anti-tracking features include munging the timezone, which means times in almost any website are wrong - which seems to be a poison pill to keep people from turning it on?
Edit with details regarding the extension controversy: https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/16/16784628/mozilla-mr-robo...
What is the browser extension incident you're referring to? Can you provide a link to an article or previous HN discussion?
They're referring to https://www.engadget.com/2017-12-16-firefox-mr-robot-extensi..., an event that occurred 5 years ago, was immediately rolled back after launch, and hasn't happened again.
>an event that occurred 5 years ago, was immediately rolled back after launch, and hasn't happened again.
It shouldn't have happened in the first place so no one gets any points for taking it down immediately. The fact it doesn't seem to have happened again also earns no points because again it should never have happened in the first place. At no point should your web browser silently install an addon/extension without your permission. That this same web browser wants to trot around afterwards and prattle on about how secure and open they are makes it even worse.
It shouldn't have happened in the first place so no one gets any points for taking it down immediately. The fact it doesn't seem to have happened again also earns no points because again it should never have happened in the first place. At no point should your web browser silently install an addon/extension without your permission. That this same web browser wants to trot around afterwards and prattle on about how secure and open they are makes it even worse.
> Maybe because Mozilla collects a massive amount of "telemetry" on users, in a way that is personally identifiable, despite zero need for it to be so?
Please point out how to personally identify a telemetry user.
I am a Firefox engineer who uses telemetry data, and know of no way to personally identify any of my users. Well, one way -- you can voluntarily put your email or other info into a crash report, though I know there was some talk of stripping that text field out because it's so rarely useful and touching any potential PII is like touching hot lava.
Please point out how to personally identify a telemetry user.
I am a Firefox engineer who uses telemetry data, and know of no way to personally identify any of my users. Well, one way -- you can voluntarily put your email or other info into a crash report, though I know there was some talk of stripping that text field out because it's so rarely useful and touching any potential PII is like touching hot lava.
btw, Firefox crash reports no longer have an email address field, though they still have a comment field:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1688883
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1688883
resistFingerprinting is a hidden setting. Mostly it's for Tor Browser. Supporting Tor Browser's threat model and not supporting yours might be disappointing. That doesn't make it a poison pill.
nonsense.
about:telemetry shows you all that is collected and none of it is PII, a unique fingerprint maybe...
about:telemetry shows you all that is collected and none of it is PII, a unique fingerprint maybe...
In general the people making decisions on standards and implementation don't directly answer to the people honoring the Google deal. Plus, Google knows they really shouldn't stop feeding FF revenue lest they be called out, leading to bad PR and more potential antitrust lawsuits, so I don't see them stopping anytime soon.
1 is the worst possible rationale I've ever heard.
"Let's support a company that abuses its customers, developers and refuses to implement web standards just so a company that makes a far superior product doesn't gain more market share..."
"Let's support a company that abuses its customers, developers and refuses to implement web standards just so a company that makes a far superior product doesn't gain more market share..."
They aren't advocating or supporting Apple, though. They are merely pointing out that in suchg a dire situation as the one we have now, Apple's interests partially align with consumer interests.
I think their tone makes it relatively clear that this is not a healthy state to be in!
I think their tone makes it relatively clear that this is not a healthy state to be in!
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
What hyperbole! It's entirely possible for some process to be bad, and it still have (some) good consequences.
The Black Plague was terrible; but it lead to increased social mobility in the aftermath. Likewise, Apple's "one browser" policy is bad, but ironically it's the main thing stopping the other browser, Chrome, from becoming the one browser that dominates everything. I'm still against the one browser policy, as I am against the Black Plague, but a reasonable person can make these distinctions.
The Black Plague was terrible; but it lead to increased social mobility in the aftermath. Likewise, Apple's "one browser" policy is bad, but ironically it's the main thing stopping the other browser, Chrome, from becoming the one browser that dominates everything. I'm still against the one browser policy, as I am against the Black Plague, but a reasonable person can make these distinctions.
I view it more like the lesser of two evils. I don't like Apple's behaviour and I agree with a lot of the criticisms against their behaviour. That said, I think it's preferable to the alternative.
> abuses its customers
Apple customers are generally pretty happy with their hardware and software.
Apple customers are generally pretty happy with their hardware and software.
> Engineers from Apple and Mozilla are largely our bastion against Google's harmful proposals for the web.
Brave also deserves a mention. As long as Brave exists in its current form, there will be a version of Chromium without Google’s “bad” stuff.
Brave also deserves a mention. As long as Brave exists in its current form, there will be a version of Chromium without Google’s “bad” stuff.
Sure, it just has Brave's "bad stuff" instead :)
What would you define as "Brave's 'bad stuff'" ? It would seem that Brave does a lot to leave power of choice while erroring on safety / privacy for the defaults. What issues does it have?
For now it let's you keep the BAT stuff and ads off, but the incentives are not totally aligned there and I'd worry in the future they might force you to use it.
Ultimately they're inserting themselves in as the attention reseller - it's still an engagement/ad play dressed up a bit.
I really like what they've built, but I don't like how they're trying to monetize it. I think the ad/attention model is a corrupting influence on content quality generally, I can see what they're trying to do but I'd rather ad supported models just die. A browser completely focused on the user would just block ads and be done with it (imo).
Just let me pay for software that doesn't suck so our incentives are aligned. If you want a free ad-supported version for people unwilling to pay then fine.
Ultimately they're inserting themselves in as the attention reseller - it's still an engagement/ad play dressed up a bit.
I really like what they've built, but I don't like how they're trying to monetize it. I think the ad/attention model is a corrupting influence on content quality generally, I can see what they're trying to do but I'd rather ad supported models just die. A browser completely focused on the user would just block ads and be done with it (imo).
Just let me pay for software that doesn't suck so our incentives are aligned. If you want a free ad-supported version for people unwilling to pay then fine.
As Chromium adds more and more bad stuff, it will be harder for Brave to patch everything out.
I suspect they'll eventually just remove capabilities entirely that allow ad blocking and brave will have to completely rewrite it and shoehorn it in.
They are already restricting it with manifest v3. It is only a matter of time until it becomes manifest v4.
Does Vivaldi deserve a mention here alongside Brave?
>Why it's worth caring about this at all? So what if Chromium is the only engine, it would make things easier for developers after all.
It sure would, but here just as in many areas of tech, developer convenience is diametrically opposed to what's good for users.
It sure would, but here just as in many areas of tech, developer convenience is diametrically opposed to what's good for users.
I think firefox and apple are our last voices before google takes over web browser technologies which is a really scary proposition, at least to me.
As someone who for quite awhile almost exclusively used Chromium based browsers and then coming back to only using but actually appreciating using Firefox I approve and very much agree with this message.
Google is up to so many sneaky things, it's stopped surprising me to find out how they're always one step ahead to make their products even more intrusive.
A new one I found out is their supposedly open-source initiative called 'Cloud Information Model' [1]. Along with others such as Salesforce, Genesys and AWS (companies that I personally don't trust), they promise 'you can create seamless and tailored personal experiences across cloud-native applications'. It's all a bit vague and fancy and sufficiently "tech-y" to impress the marketing folks but colour me suspicious.
EDIT: forgot the link,
1: https://cloudinformationmodel.org/faq/
A new one I found out is their supposedly open-source initiative called 'Cloud Information Model' [1]. Along with others such as Salesforce, Genesys and AWS (companies that I personally don't trust), they promise 'you can create seamless and tailored personal experiences across cloud-native applications'. It's all a bit vague and fancy and sufficiently "tech-y" to impress the marketing folks but colour me suspicious.
EDIT: forgot the link,
1: https://cloudinformationmodel.org/faq/
I always wondered why the engine is not separated from the GUI in browsers. In chess world this is totally normal, you have a chess GUI and a chess engine (and a crude communication protocol).
> I always wondered why the engine is not separated from the GUI in browsers
For WebKit that's the case.
For WebKit that's the case.
All the major browser engines can be embedded, the GUI is a separate layer. It's been that way for ages, even IE was this way.
Gecko isn't really embeddable. Except on Android.
Gecko was ALWAYS embedable, it was literally designed that way from day one.
Mozilla removed the embedding APIs in 2011. And they were incomplete and unstable before.[1]
[1] https://groups.google.com/g/mozilla.dev.embedding/c/c_NMcO-N...
[1] https://groups.google.com/g/mozilla.dev.embedding/c/c_NMcO-N...
That's about being about to build out Gecko as a blob to be called like a library. That doesn't mean Gecko can be used without all the extra parts in your app.
> That's about being about to build out Gecko as a blob to be called like a library.
That's what embedding a browser engine means.
> That doesn't mean Gecko can be used without all the extra parts in your app.
What extra parts?
That's what embedding a browser engine means.
> That doesn't mean Gecko can be used without all the extra parts in your app.
What extra parts?
FLoC has nothing to do with rendering, though.
Mozilla existing (and shipping spyware, just like Chrome) doesn't really do anything to stop any of that.
Mozilla existing (and shipping spyware, just like Chrome) doesn't really do anything to stop any of that.
it's not "just like Chrome". It's not great, but it's not in the same ballpark as what Google does.
sneak(3)
I'll go ahead and point out the obvious that the chances of Safari going Chromium-based are high given that (1) iOS Safari sucks and (2) Microsoft has had good success with Edgium. So the likelihood of Mozilla being the only dissenting voice is high.
The chance of Apple switching from a browser engine whose security and energy profile they control completely to one built specifically to advance the goals of a competitor is somewhere close to the chance of the heat death of the universe happening in the next five minutes.
It could happen, but even if it were to happen, there would be a split from Blink in a very short time period because Google’s values and mission do not align with Apple’s values and mission.
It could happen, but even if it were to happen, there would be a split from Blink in a very short time period because Google’s values and mission do not align with Apple’s values and mission.
It's a depressing situation, particularly knowing that Firefox is pretty much kept alive at Google's whim. It makes one seriously wonder whether it is feasible at all to maintain an independent open-source web browser in 2021. People tend to blame Mozilla's management and I'm sure there have been management failures but I'm not sure what they could do to make Firefox a thriving, independent, sustainable browser. It seems that the market niche of tech-capable people who value privacy and customisation over a simplified UX is not capable of sustaining Firefox on its own. So Mozilla tries to move in Chrome's direction, removing configuration options and "dumbing down" the UI, which frustrates its existing user base (including me) while apparently also failing to eat into Chrome's market share.
So what to do? Go back to being the quirky, heavily configurable browser we all know and love? That would be great for me, but even assuming Mozilla can afford to do that now (greater configurability leads to greater code complexity and therefore greater maintenance costs), experience seems to suggest it won't be enough to allow Mozilla grow its market share to a sustainable level.
Finally, and this is a bit of a tangent, but I've never quite understood why Mozilla got such a hard time from users about telemetry. I understand that telemetry is in general something to be suspicious of, but we're not talking about handing your data over to Google so they can target you with ads; we're talking about sharing technical data with a non-profit organisation to help them maintain and improve the browser you rely on. Mozilla are removing a feature you use daily? Okay, did you enable the telemetry that lets them know you use it? Receiving and analysing user data is increasingly important to delivering a good user experience. If open-source projects can't access the same data as proprietary ones do, we can't expect them to be able to react to user demands in the same way, and so we can't expect them to be able to compete in today's market.
So what to do? Go back to being the quirky, heavily configurable browser we all know and love? That would be great for me, but even assuming Mozilla can afford to do that now (greater configurability leads to greater code complexity and therefore greater maintenance costs), experience seems to suggest it won't be enough to allow Mozilla grow its market share to a sustainable level.
Finally, and this is a bit of a tangent, but I've never quite understood why Mozilla got such a hard time from users about telemetry. I understand that telemetry is in general something to be suspicious of, but we're not talking about handing your data over to Google so they can target you with ads; we're talking about sharing technical data with a non-profit organisation to help them maintain and improve the browser you rely on. Mozilla are removing a feature you use daily? Okay, did you enable the telemetry that lets them know you use it? Receiving and analysing user data is increasingly important to delivering a good user experience. If open-source projects can't access the same data as proprietary ones do, we can't expect them to be able to react to user demands in the same way, and so we can't expect them to be able to compete in today's market.
I have to strongly agree with your last point - I also never understood the massive hard-on that the technical user-base has against useful telemetry. Perhaps it's just the loud minority, but to me it seems that most of them have never worked on an user-facing product (for-profit or not).
Yes, users can themselves explicitly communicate feedback regarding the product or its features, and no, most of them don't do that. That's why telemetry is useful.
Yes, users can themselves explicitly communicate feedback regarding the product or its features, and no, most of them don't do that. That's why telemetry is useful.
> I also never understood the massive hard-on that the technical user-base has against useful telemetry.
> it seems that most of them have never worked on an user-facing product
If you have worked on user-facing products, then I think you do understand. I think you just don't like the answer.
Here it is in a nutshell: In the general case, how do you distinguish 'telemetry' from 'surveillance'?
And the answer is you can't, because the difference between 'telemetry' and 'surveillance' lies in the intent of the consumer of that data. Technically useful information collected in good faith today can become intrusive surveillance tomorrow with a court order, or business pivot, or just a bored insider & lack controls.
Now consider the fact that the author of every stupid new piece of code out there now seems to think it is so special it deserves to be allowed to send... who knows what back to some opaque collection endpoint as the cost of executing.
The only reactions in response to this mess that don't cost a huge amount of overhead are "block everything" and "have your way with me". Guess which a technically inclined user picks.
> it seems that most of them have never worked on an user-facing product
If you have worked on user-facing products, then I think you do understand. I think you just don't like the answer.
Here it is in a nutshell: In the general case, how do you distinguish 'telemetry' from 'surveillance'?
And the answer is you can't, because the difference between 'telemetry' and 'surveillance' lies in the intent of the consumer of that data. Technically useful information collected in good faith today can become intrusive surveillance tomorrow with a court order, or business pivot, or just a bored insider & lack controls.
Now consider the fact that the author of every stupid new piece of code out there now seems to think it is so special it deserves to be allowed to send... who knows what back to some opaque collection endpoint as the cost of executing.
The only reactions in response to this mess that don't cost a huge amount of overhead are "block everything" and "have your way with me". Guess which a technically inclined user picks.
[deleted]
You shouldn't have had to say it, but thank you.
> how do you distinguish 'telemetry' from 'surveillance'?
Granularity. Telemetry data can be privacy-respecting (e.g. anonymously aggregated) while still being useful.
E.g. "143 people flew from NYC to LA this month" vs. "John Smith flew from NYC to LA at 2:00 pm on Tuesday."
Granularity. Telemetry data can be privacy-respecting (e.g. anonymously aggregated) while still being useful.
E.g. "143 people flew from NYC to LA this month" vs. "John Smith flew from NYC to LA at 2:00 pm on Tuesday."
Do you want to be surveilled?
We promise it's anonymized.
We promise it's anonymized.
Would you mind setting up a 24/7 stream of your bedroom? I don't know you, so technically it's anonymized.
[deleted]
That is true for people with the same level of access as you. The 3 letter agencies have access to much wider array of data and yours can and will be used to track people of interest and those who they deem problematic.
An example, measuring traffic flow in a city.
You can do it with cameras and ID plate detection tools, which allows tracking where anyone is at any time.
You can also put magnetic loops into the roads, which just tells you how many drive over a certain area of the road, without any individualized tracking.
Good telemetry is like the magnetic loops. But nowadays very few implementations are that privacy respecting
You can do it with cameras and ID plate detection tools, which allows tracking where anyone is at any time.
You can also put magnetic loops into the roads, which just tells you how many drive over a certain area of the road, without any individualized tracking.
Good telemetry is like the magnetic loops. But nowadays very few implementations are that privacy respecting
Better surveillance: put RFID readers in the road that track the RFID tags in the tires. Then ping that against the database of who bought what tires. People won't known what hit them.
>how do you distinguish 'telemetry' from 'surveillance'?
For starters, consent. Telemetry generally supposes that the user opts into, either directly or by accepting the terms of using a service, and is free to walk away.
I find the increasing usage of the word surveillance completely silly and ideological. If the NSA vacuums data from some underwater cable that's surveillance, when I exchange information, aware of what's being handed over in exchange for some service, that's a trade.
For starters, consent. Telemetry generally supposes that the user opts into, either directly or by accepting the terms of using a service, and is free to walk away.
I find the increasing usage of the word surveillance completely silly and ideological. If the NSA vacuums data from some underwater cable that's surveillance, when I exchange information, aware of what's being handed over in exchange for some service, that's a trade.
How aware can you be though? Windows has dozens of different endpoints [1] that collect thousands of data points [2], and I presume that can change at any time with an update.
Who has the time to read (let alone "become aware") of the full scope of that?
[1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/windows-11-... [2] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/required-wi...
Who has the time to read (let alone "become aware") of the full scope of that?
[1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/windows-11-... [2] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/required-wi...
Here in the EU at least Windows walks you through privacy and telemetry settings on the first start and you get a very direct overview of what's being collected and knobs to turn it off, courtesy of the GDPR I think. I don't think changing data collection automatically is legal either.
I'm all for informed consent, create laws to give users transparency and control over their data. But if users have that and they still decide that exchanging info for better services is worth it, calling it surveillance is I think not appropriate.
Case in point, Vscode. I'll gladly give them telemetry access for getting a better editor.
I'm all for informed consent, create laws to give users transparency and control over their data. But if users have that and they still decide that exchanging info for better services is worth it, calling it surveillance is I think not appropriate.
Case in point, Vscode. I'll gladly give them telemetry access for getting a better editor.
I presume you mean the OOBE (at Windows install) where you get to choose between "Required" and "Optional" telemetry; we have that in the US as well. BTW, the [2] link includes only the data set for "Required" telemetry which you have no way of disabling (unless you do DNS / IP blocking or manually disable / delete services and scheduled tasks).
> I find the increasing usage of the word surveillance completely silly and ideological.
That's nice. I find downplaying the reality of surveillance to acclimate people to even more of it very dangerous and ideological.
That's nice. I find downplaying the reality of surveillance to acclimate people to even more of it very dangerous and ideological.
[deleted]
if it's automatic, doesn't that make it "opt out", not "opt in"?
> Here it is in a nutshell: In the general case, how do you distinguish 'telemetry' from 'surveillance'?
By never sending PII to your telemetry system. Or if you must use PII (you don't need to) then you lock it away with proper access controls.
By never sending PII to your telemetry system. Or if you must use PII (you don't need to) then you lock it away with proper access controls.
> I also never understood the massive hard-on that the technical user-base has against useful telemetry
Leaving your veiled insult aside, I think it's pretty easy to see but you don't want to listen to it. Namely: telemetry and surveillance are literally the same thing and the only difference lies in the goodwill of the steward of the data.
I believe we've been witnesses, dozens of times, here on HN, about yet another "private data leak" because some company can't be bothered to hire an intern for $2000 a month to do proper data and security hygiene of some meager 3-4 disks that don't even total 10TB.
So why should I trust companies by default to take good care of my data AND to use them for good only, when all the historical evidence points at them being unable to do either? Shouldn't I take the matter in my own hands? I answered yes and so I did. My PiHole black-holes anything such I can think of and until that gets criminalized I'll be freely admitting it anytime when asked.
Leaving your veiled insult aside, I think it's pretty easy to see but you don't want to listen to it. Namely: telemetry and surveillance are literally the same thing and the only difference lies in the goodwill of the steward of the data.
I believe we've been witnesses, dozens of times, here on HN, about yet another "private data leak" because some company can't be bothered to hire an intern for $2000 a month to do proper data and security hygiene of some meager 3-4 disks that don't even total 10TB.
So why should I trust companies by default to take good care of my data AND to use them for good only, when all the historical evidence points at them being unable to do either? Shouldn't I take the matter in my own hands? I answered yes and so I did. My PiHole black-holes anything such I can think of and until that gets criminalized I'll be freely admitting it anytime when asked.
> I have to strongly agree with your last point - I also never understood the massive hard-on that the technical user-base has against useful telemetry.
I think it would be far less hostility if we as users got access to the information ourselves. E.g. I would think it would be very useful to see stats on which features I'm using in firefox, how often, which features I'm not using, how many tabs I have (compared to the average user) etc., and I would be much more happy to share that data with firefox if I can see it first.
I think it would be far less hostility if we as users got access to the information ourselves. E.g. I would think it would be very useful to see stats on which features I'm using in firefox, how often, which features I'm not using, how many tabs I have (compared to the average user) etc., and I would be much more happy to share that data with firefox if I can see it first.
> I think it would be far less hostility if we as users got access to the information ourselves.
Go to about:telemetry
There are several pages detailing all of that information, and you can also get all of that data as the JSON payload if you want to munge and display it yourself.
Go to about:telemetry
There are several pages detailing all of that information, and you can also get all of that data as the JSON payload if you want to munge and display it yourself.
I didn't know this existed - thank you for sharing. I've shared telemetry on Firefox, but wasn't sure exactly what was being sent so this helps quite a bit more.
That gave me a laugh. Had no idea this existed, thanks.
For those who may be curious, Firefox still lists all their metapages [0], which makes exploring under the hood pretty easy.
[0] about:about
[0] about:about
I don't think it lists 100% of them. For example, I think there might be one that forces a crash for debugging purposes? There are definitely some that are used for displaying errors and things (eg about:httpsonlyerror).
You could probably find more with searchfox, using a better query than https://searchfox.org/mozilla-central/search?q=about%3A&path...
You could probably find more with searchfox, using a better query than https://searchfox.org/mozilla-central/search?q=about%3A&path...
> About About
> This is a list of “about” pages for your convenience.
> Some of them might be confusing. Some are for diagnostic purposes only.
> And some are omitted because they require query strings.
Some are omitted. Like about:blank.
> This is a list of “about” pages for your convenience.
> Some of them might be confusing. Some are for diagnostic purposes only.
> And some are omitted because they require query strings.
Some are omitted. Like about:blank.
Windows is doing well in this regard in that 11 (and some earlier versions of 10) includes a 'View diagnostic data' button in settings that starts duplicating shipped-off telemetry to the local disk for inspection.
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/diagnostic-...
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/diagnostic-...
> I also never understood the massive hard-on that the technical user-base has against useful telemetry.
Once upon a time, Firefox probably had a normal ratio of privacy-conscious users to privacy-indifferent users.
But if the privacy-indifferent users are increasingly lost to Chrome, FF is probably left with an unusually privacy-conscious userbase.
Once upon a time, Firefox probably had a normal ratio of privacy-conscious users to privacy-indifferent users.
But if the privacy-indifferent users are increasingly lost to Chrome, FF is probably left with an unusually privacy-conscious userbase.
> Once upon a time, Firefox probably had a normal ratio of privacy-conscious users to privacy-indifferent users.
I'd bet a graph of their privacy-focused:indifferent users over time would be U-shaped. Very high before, oh, I dunno, FF2.0 when the only reason non-nerds had it was because their nerdy friend/relative installed it for them. Lower when they were advertising all over the place and marketshare was growing ('08-'12? My memory's hazy). Higher now, as their userbase continues a years-long contraction and shifts toward being mostly nerds, again.
I'd bet a graph of their privacy-focused:indifferent users over time would be U-shaped. Very high before, oh, I dunno, FF2.0 when the only reason non-nerds had it was because their nerdy friend/relative installed it for them. Lower when they were advertising all over the place and marketshare was growing ('08-'12? My memory's hazy). Higher now, as their userbase continues a years-long contraction and shifts toward being mostly nerds, again.
> I also never understood the massive hard-on that the technical user-base has against useful telemetry.
I'll leave it to others to argue why it's a privacy problem, but I'd like to push back on the "useful" and "feedback" arguments. It's appealing to say "X% of our users use this; we should prioritize it", but Mozilla has a charming history of saying "only Y% of users use this feature; we'll remove it", and for bonus points, "after we pushed this option into a really obscure sub-menu, nobody uses it, so now we can remove it while claiming that nobody cares". That is, telemetry isn't even useful for the thing that people claim it's good at, because it only provides raw data that gets used to justify things regardless of reality.
I'll leave it to others to argue why it's a privacy problem, but I'd like to push back on the "useful" and "feedback" arguments. It's appealing to say "X% of our users use this; we should prioritize it", but Mozilla has a charming history of saying "only Y% of users use this feature; we'll remove it", and for bonus points, "after we pushed this option into a really obscure sub-menu, nobody uses it, so now we can remove it while claiming that nobody cares". That is, telemetry isn't even useful for the thing that people claim it's good at, because it only provides raw data that gets used to justify things regardless of reality.
Believe me, I understand the appeal. Yesterday we were discussing something dropping support for some platforms from an open source project and the issue is... we have no way of determining how many installs are on such platforms.
Telemetry would fix this, but it's not our right to collect data from other people's machines. So our best bet would be to detect the condition we expect to cause problems, notify them in advance, and allow time for feedback before implementing a change.
Is it less pretty and a worse user experience than telemetry? Absolutely. But when you realize you have no right to data collection on someone else's machine, telemetry isn't a viable option, and we would betray people's trust by doing it.
Telemetry would fix this, but it's not our right to collect data from other people's machines. So our best bet would be to detect the condition we expect to cause problems, notify them in advance, and allow time for feedback before implementing a change.
Is it less pretty and a worse user experience than telemetry? Absolutely. But when you realize you have no right to data collection on someone else's machine, telemetry isn't a viable option, and we would betray people's trust by doing it.
I'm in a similar predicament for a business application.
We've resorted to the "scream test". When there are features that are expensive to maintain that we suspect aren't being used (based on surveys, interviews, and usability tests) then we insert a notification when the feature is used announcing it's pending removal in some subsequent version. The notification includes contact information so if we get a higher-than-expected number of complaints then we may keep the feature.
We've resorted to the "scream test". When there are features that are expensive to maintain that we suspect aren't being used (based on surveys, interviews, and usability tests) then we insert a notification when the feature is used announcing it's pending removal in some subsequent version. The notification includes contact information so if we get a higher-than-expected number of complaints then we may keep the feature.
This would be true if you had an involved user based that follows your communication channels and can give you feedback through the proper channel for each change that you might make. If you have a change surface of hundreds of features/parameters, then it gets rather tricky.
Edit: typo.
Edit: typo.
> Yesterday we were discussing something dropping support for some platforms from an open source project and the issue is... we have no way of determining how many installs are on such platforms.
You seem to be assuming that your users are always online and not sitting somewhere isolated, the ideal place for platforms old enough that you want to stop supporting them. Telemetry only tells you if something is there, it doesn't tell you if something isn't.
You seem to be assuming that your users are always online and not sitting somewhere isolated, the ideal place for platforms old enough that you want to stop supporting them. Telemetry only tells you if something is there, it doesn't tell you if something isn't.
A checkbox (defaulted to disabled) during setup is the best option in my opinion.
[ ] shitty option A
[ ] shitty option B
Telemetry showed that users overwhelmingly approve of shitty option B!
Telemetry showed that users overwhelmingly approve of shitty option B!
Whether or not any of your options are good is a completely separate concern from whether or not you're using telemetry. If option B is the least bad option available, it's still better than A. Of course, you could also include a good option, and then telemetry would show a preference for that one.
Will you next explain that water is wet?
The point of the comment is to show that telemetry is used to conclude things that aren't true, and it absolutely is, and only says the subset of things that someone wants to hear, or that even occurs to them to ask.
It's not even really a seperate issue, because even if you think you are only concerned with say how long a certain operation takes or how frequently it fails & retries, the more important issue may be why or whether that operation was even used at all in the first place.
This aspect of telemetry is simply a fact to be aware of and stands on it's own, and does not necessarily mean to say "therefor telemetry is an invalid tool that should not exist and should never be used" It just means it's incomplete at best and very susceptible to both deception and self deception.
The point of the comment is to show that telemetry is used to conclude things that aren't true, and it absolutely is, and only says the subset of things that someone wants to hear, or that even occurs to them to ask.
It's not even really a seperate issue, because even if you think you are only concerned with say how long a certain operation takes or how frequently it fails & retries, the more important issue may be why or whether that operation was even used at all in the first place.
This aspect of telemetry is simply a fact to be aware of and stands on it's own, and does not necessarily mean to say "therefor telemetry is an invalid tool that should not exist and should never be used" It just means it's incomplete at best and very susceptible to both deception and self deception.
> I also never understood the massive hard-on that the technical user-base has against useful telemetry.
People don't want to be spied on. Yes, you can find positive uses for it, but you can find positive uses for many negative technologies. If anything some of the most pervasive negative technologies also have positive uses to sweeten the pill (or even give the impression that this is a sweet and not a pill you are swallowing).
People don't want to be spied on. Yes, you can find positive uses for it, but you can find positive uses for many negative technologies. If anything some of the most pervasive negative technologies also have positive uses to sweeten the pill (or even give the impression that this is a sweet and not a pill you are swallowing).
It's creepy. Like someone looking over your shoulder. Before it became normalized, that wasn't a niche opinion. I'm sure it's very useful for developing software. A camera behind me pointed at my screen might be even more useful[0]. Both are invasive and gross.
[0] Session-recording spyware "telemetry" products practically are this, and are widely used. Watching their session playback, or ability to monitor live users on "your" site (but actually, on their computer) is disturbing.
[0] Session-recording spyware "telemetry" products practically are this, and are widely used. Watching their session playback, or ability to monitor live users on "your" site (but actually, on their computer) is disturbing.
In general for applications, I usually say no to telemetry because I don't know exactly what data is being captured and how much they're stretching the truth on what it will be used for.
I work on a user-facing product and our users don't hesitate to provide feedback on stuff like long click sequences or bad keyboard navigation.
In case of mozilla specifically telemetry didn't help them to not destroy firefox's UI.
In case of mozilla specifically telemetry didn't help them to not destroy firefox's UI.
In fact they often do the opposite and use telemetry data as justification for removing useful features.
> greater configurability leads to greater code complexity and therefore greater maintenance costs
Firefox is extremely configurable. Settings being removed from the UI doesn't mean they are gone.
`about:config` has a crazy amount of toggles that allow customizing pretty much everything, including turning off all the Mozilla services (telemetriy, account sync, Pocket, VPN adds, ...). Compare that with the measly set of settings and undiscoverable CLI flags available in Chrome...
I personally feel removing settings from the standard UI is perfectly fine when almost no-one is using them, and power users can work just fine with settings.js or `about:config`.
Firefox is extremely configurable. Settings being removed from the UI doesn't mean they are gone.
`about:config` has a crazy amount of toggles that allow customizing pretty much everything, including turning off all the Mozilla services (telemetriy, account sync, Pocket, VPN adds, ...). Compare that with the measly set of settings and undiscoverable CLI flags available in Chrome...
I personally feel removing settings from the standard UI is perfectly fine when almost no-one is using them, and power users can work just fine with settings.js or `about:config`.
about:config is removed from (not beta) android version of firefox. Who knows if they will decide to remove it on desktop as well because "only x% of our users were using about:config!"
Also if a setting is hidden behind about:config, it probably means dev will care less and less about it and eventually remove if it is becoming a hindrance
Also if a setting is hidden behind about:config, it probably means dev will care less and less about it and eventually remove if it is becoming a hindrance
It is present in Fennec F-droid, which I am using now, FWIW. It is based on Firefox.
This precisely the reason I've dropped Firefox. (Previously I was using Firefox almost exclusively across all the platforms.)
I was using it to enable TRR on Android.
I was using it to enable TRR on Android.
> So Mozilla tries to move in Chrome's direction, removing configuration options and "dumbing down" the UI, which frustrates its existing user base (including me) while apparently also failing to eat into Chrome's market share.
Well, no surprise there. Technical people like us experiment. Mainstream users just use what they know, and what their techie friends recommend them. They're not suddenly going to use Firefox now that it's more like chrome. They'll just use the real chrome. And they don't like touching something that works.
Note that this approach didn't work for Microsoft either (and they went a lot more 'like chrome' than Mozilla!). They're having some success with Edge but it's mainly because they push it really hard to enterprise users with their O365 integration, so people are getting to know it at work and bringing it home.
> [...] If open-source projects can't access the same data as proprietary ones do, we can't expect them to be able to react to user demands in the same way, and so we can't expect them to be able to compete in today's market.
I don't want them to become like the proprietary browsers in this regard. Telemetry is not an all-seeing oracle, it's often used to confirm their own bias because it doesn't say why the users like something or what they'd prefer. What they should be doing is listening to users instead of blindly trusting telemetry. Google and Microsoft make the same mistake but they already have a monopoly on the browser and OS markets respectively so their mistakes are easily absorbed. It's not like their products have become a lot better since they started relying on telemetry so much.
But no, I won't allow telemetry and I block it for Microsoft and Google too in my DNS. The reason I use Firefox is because I don't want to "get with the program". If I have to change my ideology, I would be changed so much that the primary reason to use Firefox is no longer relevant.
Well, no surprise there. Technical people like us experiment. Mainstream users just use what they know, and what their techie friends recommend them. They're not suddenly going to use Firefox now that it's more like chrome. They'll just use the real chrome. And they don't like touching something that works.
Note that this approach didn't work for Microsoft either (and they went a lot more 'like chrome' than Mozilla!). They're having some success with Edge but it's mainly because they push it really hard to enterprise users with their O365 integration, so people are getting to know it at work and bringing it home.
> [...] If open-source projects can't access the same data as proprietary ones do, we can't expect them to be able to react to user demands in the same way, and so we can't expect them to be able to compete in today's market.
I don't want them to become like the proprietary browsers in this regard. Telemetry is not an all-seeing oracle, it's often used to confirm their own bias because it doesn't say why the users like something or what they'd prefer. What they should be doing is listening to users instead of blindly trusting telemetry. Google and Microsoft make the same mistake but they already have a monopoly on the browser and OS markets respectively so their mistakes are easily absorbed. It's not like their products have become a lot better since they started relying on telemetry so much.
But no, I won't allow telemetry and I block it for Microsoft and Google too in my DNS. The reason I use Firefox is because I don't want to "get with the program". If I have to change my ideology, I would be changed so much that the primary reason to use Firefox is no longer relevant.
> Note that this approach didn't work for Microsoft either (and they went a lot more 'like chrome' than Mozilla!). They're having some success with Edge but it's mainly because they push it really hard to enterprise users with their O365 integration, so people are getting to know it at work and bringing it home.
Edge is also - aside from being a privacy disaster - a legitimately good product that does a lot of good UI innovation on top of stock Chrome.
Things like normie-friendly but powerful vertical tab implementations, turning menus into floating panels that can be turned into sidebars with a click, Collections etc. They're actually adding lots of customer-facing features that are really well designed.
Edge is also - aside from being a privacy disaster - a legitimately good product that does a lot of good UI innovation on top of stock Chrome.
Things like normie-friendly but powerful vertical tab implementations, turning menus into floating panels that can be turned into sidebars with a click, Collections etc. They're actually adding lots of customer-facing features that are really well designed.
> Finally, and this is a bit of a tangent, but I've never quite understood why Mozilla got such a hard time from users about telemetry.
That's the consequence of marketing themselves as "privacy first". Many people use Firefox because they don't want to be tracked, and therefore, any tiny bit of tracking/telemetry will be frowned upon. Google makes no such claim with Chrome, in fact, it makes it pretty clear that it tracks you.
That's the consequence of marketing themselves as "privacy first". Many people use Firefox because they don't want to be tracked, and therefore, any tiny bit of tracking/telemetry will be frowned upon. Google makes no such claim with Chrome, in fact, it makes it pretty clear that it tracks you.
> [..] but I'm not sure what they could do to make Firefox a thriving, independent, sustainable browser.
They could focus on building that browser, instead of getting sidetracked and wasting money on other things. Also reduce the friction of contributing to their projects from the outside, streamline the process, bring it into the 21st century while keeping top-down politics and egos out of it. I wouldn't be surprised if their rivals see more outside contributions (in total) simply because they are somewhat easier to work with.
However, overall the vast majority of contributions to Mozilla's projects is likely still coming from the outside.
Mozilla is afraid it will fail with Firefox if they don't diversify. But if Firefox fails, the world doesn't need Mozilla. If that happens they should just pack up and hand the custody of surviving technologies (Rust etc.) to someone else.
They could focus on building that browser, instead of getting sidetracked and wasting money on other things. Also reduce the friction of contributing to their projects from the outside, streamline the process, bring it into the 21st century while keeping top-down politics and egos out of it. I wouldn't be surprised if their rivals see more outside contributions (in total) simply because they are somewhat easier to work with.
However, overall the vast majority of contributions to Mozilla's projects is likely still coming from the outside.
Mozilla is afraid it will fail with Firefox if they don't diversify. But if Firefox fails, the world doesn't need Mozilla. If that happens they should just pack up and hand the custody of surviving technologies (Rust etc.) to someone else.
IMO they're in a good position where then can include deep-rooted privacy services on which they could (and already do in some) capitalize.
for example Mozilla VPN and Firefox Relay which added a premium version with unlimited aliases and your own @*.mozmail.com subdomain.
If they can find a way to promote themselves as a leader of Internet privacy with well-integrated servoces, and from which they can get a revenue from it then at least they'll gain some independence.
for example Mozilla VPN and Firefox Relay which added a premium version with unlimited aliases and your own @*.mozmail.com subdomain.
If they can find a way to promote themselves as a leader of Internet privacy with well-integrated servoces, and from which they can get a revenue from it then at least they'll gain some independence.
> Relay
I started using Relay recently and it seems useful. I'll subscribe. I hope they can get a few hundred thousand paying users there...
I started using Relay recently and it seems useful. I'll subscribe. I hope they can get a few hundred thousand paying users there...
Personally I'd pay just a bit more to integrate my Firefox Relay aliases automatically with my Bitwarden account.
I know Firefox has its own builtin password manager, but it's mostly barebone.
I know Firefox has its own builtin password manager, but it's mostly barebone.
What's worse, I think it's extremely difficult, if not impossible, for another project to start from either a fork or from nothing and provide an alternative, as developing a browser (with its own rendering engine) is extremely complicated, comparable to an operating system.
I've been suggesting someone starts maintaining a set of patches to Firefox and building based on them.
Start by fixing low-hanging frukt (the tab-strip api, make real customizability for the UI possible again) and build momentum from there.
I'm ready to pay a bit for what is one of my most important tools, and I think we all should think about it that way.
Just don't start growth hacking me or anything sleazy and I'm also your free billboard on HN and elsewhere.
Start by fixing low-hanging frukt (the tab-strip api, make real customizability for the UI possible again) and build momentum from there.
I'm ready to pay a bit for what is one of my most important tools, and I think we all should think about it that way.
Just don't start growth hacking me or anything sleazy and I'm also your free billboard on HN and elsewhere.
The rendering engine part is kind of the least problematic bit, because there are three primary options (Gecko, WebKit, and Blink) and they're all pretty up-to-date and open source. You could also pick up Goanna, KHTML or Servo if you didn't want to use any of the big three as they're open too, but there'd be work to do on them.
There's no particularly good reason to start your own renderer from scratch.
There's no particularly good reason to start your own renderer from scratch.
I'd agree that there's no good reason to start your own renderer from scratch, but I'd argue that there's a great benefit having a competing rendering engine (in this case, Gecko). If Firefox (and, by extension, Gecko) were to die, or fall into obscurity, there would be nothing stopping harmful proposals from being added to various web specifications[1], which is what I was getting at.
[1] https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/
[1] https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/
>It seems that the market niche of tech-capable people who value privacy and customisation over a simplified UX is not capable of sustaining Firefox on its own.
>So Mozilla tries to move in Chrome's direction, removing configuration options and "dumbing down" the UI, which frustrates its existing user base (including me) while apparently also failing to eat into Chrome's market share.
You can have sensible defaults for people who value simplicity and want it to just work and have customisation accessible from the settings page for the people who want customization.
>So Mozilla tries to move in Chrome's direction, removing configuration options and "dumbing down" the UI, which frustrates its existing user base (including me) while apparently also failing to eat into Chrome's market share.
You can have sensible defaults for people who value simplicity and want it to just work and have customisation accessible from the settings page for the people who want customization.
> did you enable the telemetry that lets them know you use it?
I have all telemetry and Nightly studies enabled wherever I can (unfortunately the option is unavailable in custom builds, and I use custom builds on my main OS, since I contribute code to Firefox occasionally).
> removing configuration options and "dumbing down" the UI
I never understood the whole "dumbing down" thing either. It's fundamentally the same UI as it was in Firefox 2.0 back in the day, except the menus are more well-structured (there's now a convenient hamburger rather than everything being in a crowded "application menu" bar at the top).
> I'm not sure what they could do to make Firefox a thriving, independent, sustainable browser
I think it's still all these things. But to make growth possible, they need to somehow fight against Google persistently advertising Chrome right on the fucking google dot com main page (and YouTube and so on).
I have all telemetry and Nightly studies enabled wherever I can (unfortunately the option is unavailable in custom builds, and I use custom builds on my main OS, since I contribute code to Firefox occasionally).
> removing configuration options and "dumbing down" the UI
I never understood the whole "dumbing down" thing either. It's fundamentally the same UI as it was in Firefox 2.0 back in the day, except the menus are more well-structured (there's now a convenient hamburger rather than everything being in a crowded "application menu" bar at the top).
> I'm not sure what they could do to make Firefox a thriving, independent, sustainable browser
I think it's still all these things. But to make growth possible, they need to somehow fight against Google persistently advertising Chrome right on the fucking google dot com main page (and YouTube and so on).
> It seems that the market niche of tech-capable people who value privacy and customisation over a simplified UX is not capable of sustaining Firefox on its own.
Perhaps they could care for the automation niche. There are thriving communities on macOS who are deeply into automation, and virtually no one uses Firefox. The ones who do stop because Firefox’s AppleScript support is non-existent, while Chromium’s (and thus every browser based on it) is top notch, even better than Safari’s.
I’m not talking developers, either. Non-coders frequently cobble up short AppleScript snippets do to what they want. When they visit the forums asking for help and how to do what they want in Firefox, they are directed to the open bug report which is old enough to drink.
I have seen plenty of users abandon Firefox on account of that gap. I tried to convey that to Firefox developers multiple times—both in person and online—and their response was to not care.
Perhaps they could care for the automation niche. There are thriving communities on macOS who are deeply into automation, and virtually no one uses Firefox. The ones who do stop because Firefox’s AppleScript support is non-existent, while Chromium’s (and thus every browser based on it) is top notch, even better than Safari’s.
I’m not talking developers, either. Non-coders frequently cobble up short AppleScript snippets do to what they want. When they visit the forums asking for help and how to do what they want in Firefox, they are directed to the open bug report which is old enough to drink.
I have seen plenty of users abandon Firefox on account of that gap. I tried to convey that to Firefox developers multiple times—both in person and online—and their response was to not care.
If they're going to be paying developers to do it they'd need an expectation of a stronger ROI than their other efforts. I wonder if the size of the macOS automation community is large enough to make much of an impact on their market share. Would you estimate they'd gain hundreds of users? Thousands? Tens-of-thousands?
If they're relying on volunteers then they'd need a few folks with the right set of skills and a motivation to scratch that itch. I would personally love to see better AppleScript support in Firefox, but I won't judge anyone else for not stepping up if I don't have the inclination to either.
If they're relying on volunteers then they'd need a few folks with the right set of skills and a motivation to scratch that itch. I would personally love to see better AppleScript support in Firefox, but I won't judge anyone else for not stepping up if I don't have the inclination to either.
> I wonder if the size of the macOS automation community is large enough to make much of an impact on their market share.
The automation communities (plural) create tools for themselves and for others. That’s the important bit. It’s common for non-coders to resort to those communities (which can be as simple as a subreddit) to achieve a simple recurring task. If they use Firefox, they get turned away from it because it’s the only major browser lacking AppleScript support. Not only do those developers abandon Firefox, so do all their users.
> Would you estimate they'd gain hundreds of users? Thousands? Tens-of-thousands?
I estimate they wouldn’t lose as many as they do. What good is it to gain market share if you can’t stop the bleed? If Firefox can’t even be interesting to large sections of developers and power users, what chance to they have with the general populace?
I lost count to how many people asked for my tools to be ported to Firefox, and I’m a single data point with a single need. Before I stopped caring, I checked every (front page) Firefox story on HN and without exception I collected a new macOS grievance by someone different. Tellingly, I noticed that no matter how polite or constructive the criticism, it was invariably met by defensiveness of the “I don’t care for that feature, so it’s not the problem” kind. That’s in line with what I felt in my interactions with the Firefox developers I spoke to, despite ostensibly most of them using macOS.
It’s fine for Firefox developers to ignore whatever communities they want; that’s their prerogative. But they then need to accept when those same people assert they can’t use Firefox as their daily driver.
> they'd need an expectation of a stronger ROI than their other efforts
Their latest efforts are constantly criticised on HN precisely because they are gimmicks not related to the browser. I’m not a marketing expert, but I expect making a browser people want to use is better ROI than Mr Robot marketing stunts or short-lived file sharing services with no innovative features.
The automation communities (plural) create tools for themselves and for others. That’s the important bit. It’s common for non-coders to resort to those communities (which can be as simple as a subreddit) to achieve a simple recurring task. If they use Firefox, they get turned away from it because it’s the only major browser lacking AppleScript support. Not only do those developers abandon Firefox, so do all their users.
> Would you estimate they'd gain hundreds of users? Thousands? Tens-of-thousands?
I estimate they wouldn’t lose as many as they do. What good is it to gain market share if you can’t stop the bleed? If Firefox can’t even be interesting to large sections of developers and power users, what chance to they have with the general populace?
I lost count to how many people asked for my tools to be ported to Firefox, and I’m a single data point with a single need. Before I stopped caring, I checked every (front page) Firefox story on HN and without exception I collected a new macOS grievance by someone different. Tellingly, I noticed that no matter how polite or constructive the criticism, it was invariably met by defensiveness of the “I don’t care for that feature, so it’s not the problem” kind. That’s in line with what I felt in my interactions with the Firefox developers I spoke to, despite ostensibly most of them using macOS.
It’s fine for Firefox developers to ignore whatever communities they want; that’s their prerogative. But they then need to accept when those same people assert they can’t use Firefox as their daily driver.
> they'd need an expectation of a stronger ROI than their other efforts
Their latest efforts are constantly criticised on HN precisely because they are gimmicks not related to the browser. I’m not a marketing expert, but I expect making a browser people want to use is better ROI than Mr Robot marketing stunts or short-lived file sharing services with no innovative features.
> Not only do those developers abandon Firefox, so do all their users.
Noted. The underlying question stands: what is the size of this (combined) community and is it large enough to make a meaningful impact on Firefox's market share? Some software can survive by finding a loyal niche, but a browser engine is probably not one of them as it requires a certain market share threshold to be a target for web developers.
> What good is it to gain market share if you can’t stop the bleed?
When the gain exceeds the loss from the bleed. (With the caveat that not all users are equally valuable -- users who are vocal, enthusiastic, and/or do not require niche functionality can be more valuable than others.)
> I noticed that no matter how polite or constructive the criticism, it was invariably met by defensiveness of the “I don’t care for that feature, so it’s not the problem” kind.
If it's any consolation, that is not my specific issue. I would love to have better automation on macOS and it frustrates me that I have to choose between an open web and end-user automation. I hear your frustration that you cannot help people use your tools with Firefox.
I also have no idea what Mozilla's expected return on their projects like file-sharing services were. (Marketing stunts are usually done to attract advertiser dollars, not users.) They don't seem to be making the tradeoffs and allocations I would personally make. Having said that, trying to halt or reverse a death spiral means making hard choices that invariably alienate some number of users.
Personally I am impressed that Mozilla has been able to outlast Microsoft and Opera in keeping up with Apple and Google for so long. But I would not be surprised if they too are forced to switch to Blink (or WebKit) eventually.
Noted. The underlying question stands: what is the size of this (combined) community and is it large enough to make a meaningful impact on Firefox's market share? Some software can survive by finding a loyal niche, but a browser engine is probably not one of them as it requires a certain market share threshold to be a target for web developers.
> What good is it to gain market share if you can’t stop the bleed?
When the gain exceeds the loss from the bleed. (With the caveat that not all users are equally valuable -- users who are vocal, enthusiastic, and/or do not require niche functionality can be more valuable than others.)
> I noticed that no matter how polite or constructive the criticism, it was invariably met by defensiveness of the “I don’t care for that feature, so it’s not the problem” kind.
If it's any consolation, that is not my specific issue. I would love to have better automation on macOS and it frustrates me that I have to choose between an open web and end-user automation. I hear your frustration that you cannot help people use your tools with Firefox.
I also have no idea what Mozilla's expected return on their projects like file-sharing services were. (Marketing stunts are usually done to attract advertiser dollars, not users.) They don't seem to be making the tradeoffs and allocations I would personally make. Having said that, trying to halt or reverse a death spiral means making hard choices that invariably alienate some number of users.
Personally I am impressed that Mozilla has been able to outlast Microsoft and Opera in keeping up with Apple and Google for so long. But I would not be surprised if they too are forced to switch to Blink (or WebKit) eventually.
> The underlying question stands: what is the size of this (combined) community and is it large enough to make a meaningful impact on Firefox's market share?
I don’t have data to make that claim definitively. Even if it’s large enough and they catered to it now, would people come back? I don’t know.
But that’s not my larger point:
> Before I stopped caring, I checked every (front page) Firefox story on HN and without exception I collected a new macOS grievance by someone different.
An example is music producers missing the Web MIDI API. I focused on automation because that’s what I know, but my point is they have multiple communities to cater to. This conversation started with a quote about Firefox niches.
> When the gain exceeds the loss from the bleed.
I wasn’t talking in the abstract. Firefox is unable to get new users at that rate.
> I hear your frustration that you cannot help people use your tools with Firefox.
I no longer care. I let them know why Firefox doesn’t work and point them to the bug report but tell them to not get their hopes up. My tools are open-source and free, so it’s not like this feature gap impacts by bottom line. I want to add Firefox support because I want it to succeed. But they’re not making it easy for automaters to help; quite the contrary, every useful tool we build which supports every major browser except Firefox is another nail in the coffin.
> Marketing stunts are usually done to attract advertiser dollars, not users.
Their stunts actively lose them users. No users, no one to advertise to.
I don’t have data to make that claim definitively. Even if it’s large enough and they catered to it now, would people come back? I don’t know.
But that’s not my larger point:
> Before I stopped caring, I checked every (front page) Firefox story on HN and without exception I collected a new macOS grievance by someone different.
An example is music producers missing the Web MIDI API. I focused on automation because that’s what I know, but my point is they have multiple communities to cater to. This conversation started with a quote about Firefox niches.
> When the gain exceeds the loss from the bleed.
I wasn’t talking in the abstract. Firefox is unable to get new users at that rate.
> I hear your frustration that you cannot help people use your tools with Firefox.
I no longer care. I let them know why Firefox doesn’t work and point them to the bug report but tell them to not get their hopes up. My tools are open-source and free, so it’s not like this feature gap impacts by bottom line. I want to add Firefox support because I want it to succeed. But they’re not making it easy for automaters to help; quite the contrary, every useful tool we build which supports every major browser except Firefox is another nail in the coffin.
> Marketing stunts are usually done to attract advertiser dollars, not users.
Their stunts actively lose them users. No users, no one to advertise to.
"we're talking about sharing technical data with a non-profit organisation to help them maintain and improve the browser you rely "
No we are talking about a non-profit and a for-profit at the same time, where the distinction is often not clear. But it is clear, that they included ads and "studies" by default in their browser, that did send data to whoever, without any user consent.
So no, I do not really trust them anymore. Still more than google maybe, but not enough to voluntarily send them my data. And this is a shame, because I would have liked to keep trusting them.
No we are talking about a non-profit and a for-profit at the same time, where the distinction is often not clear. But it is clear, that they included ads and "studies" by default in their browser, that did send data to whoever, without any user consent.
So no, I do not really trust them anymore. Still more than google maybe, but not enough to voluntarily send them my data. And this is a shame, because I would have liked to keep trusting them.
>but I've never quite understood why Mozilla got such a hard time from users about telemetry
Telemetry includes personal information such as IP address and some people are (rightfully) concerned about it. Also we do not know for sure what is done with this data, as Firefox server side code (the one that processes the telemetry) is not open source (and even if it was it would not be a guarantee).
> Okay, did you enable the telemetry that lets them know you use it?
There would be no problem if Firefox shipped as a zero-telemetry browser, and all telemetry was opt-in. This would remove all doubt and if you want to send Firefox data you can choose to do so.
However that is not the case. Significant amount of telemetry is enabled by default. Choosing to go for opt-out vs opt-in is what is hurting Mozilla's credibility here.
What then happens (and I am speculating here) is that this behavior triggers most power users in a negative way (for various reasons, one of them being simply using your bandwidth and resources for telemetry and noone likes having a slower browser) so they do their best to disable it. This in turn leaves Mozilla with data that does not include most of its power user base, the one that actually has most impact on Firefox market share (because as 'techies' they install the browser for their family and friends). The crippled data leads to crippled product decisions, which in turn makes power users even angrier and thus we witness the death spiral of user attrition that Firefox is currently in.
Telemetry includes personal information such as IP address and some people are (rightfully) concerned about it. Also we do not know for sure what is done with this data, as Firefox server side code (the one that processes the telemetry) is not open source (and even if it was it would not be a guarantee).
> Okay, did you enable the telemetry that lets them know you use it?
There would be no problem if Firefox shipped as a zero-telemetry browser, and all telemetry was opt-in. This would remove all doubt and if you want to send Firefox data you can choose to do so.
However that is not the case. Significant amount of telemetry is enabled by default. Choosing to go for opt-out vs opt-in is what is hurting Mozilla's credibility here.
What then happens (and I am speculating here) is that this behavior triggers most power users in a negative way (for various reasons, one of them being simply using your bandwidth and resources for telemetry and noone likes having a slower browser) so they do their best to disable it. This in turn leaves Mozilla with data that does not include most of its power user base, the one that actually has most impact on Firefox market share (because as 'techies' they install the browser for their family and friends). The crippled data leads to crippled product decisions, which in turn makes power users even angrier and thus we witness the death spiral of user attrition that Firefox is currently in.
> Telemetry includes personal information such as IP address and some people are (rightfully) concerned about it.
Source? I don't see any IP address in about:telemetry window.
Source? I don't see any IP address in about:telemetry window.
Client IP address is included with every http request, regardless of what data is being sent. Mozilla is receiving it, wanting it or not. This is why any telemetry, even if the browser is sending benign data, is a potential privacy risk for the user.
Mozilla Corporation, which represents the majority of activity on Firefox, is not a non-profit. That's only Mozilla Foundation, and it's never really been clear to me what their role is, regarding Firefox.
Mozilla Corporation is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Mozilla Foundation. There are various advantages to this kind of structure, but I don't know what they are. The upshot though is that the incentives of the owners of the Mozilla Corporation are not to squeeze every drop of profit, but rather to benefit the goals of the Mozilla Foundation (to raise money to support open source development), because the profits of the Mozilla Corporation are paid to their only shareholder: namely, the non-profit Mozilla Foundation. (No idea if they have any profits, but that's a different matter.)
> Mozilla are removing a feature you use daily? Okay, did you enable the telemetry that lets them know you use it?
I would much rather lose a feature I use daily than send telemetry data.
I would much rather lose a feature I use daily than send telemetry data.
Would it not be in the interest of Google as well to fund Firefox?
I would imagine they wouldn't mind spending a small amount to keep it alive to prevent accusations of Anti-competitive practises? ;)
That's exactly what they do.
Agreed. For who dislike telemetry, it's your choice to disable it. But you shouldn't blame developers to have optional telemetry, like Audacity case.
I thought firefox was supposed to be a simplified interface (compared to the older mozilla suite).
That's how I remember it too, but I think the expectations of simplicity has changed over the years - in those days, it was closer to great defaults and no gratuitous features, whereas now it's a bit more like less flexibility (although really, Firefox has masses of options that aren't included in the UI but are accessible from about:config, so I don't really think Firefox falls victim to this criticism).
Part of the old tradeoff was that extension writers could do almost anything to make the web browser do almost anything. Nowadays, extensions are much less flexible. I think for good reason: being able to click a few buttons and get pwned isn't really a desirable feature. But the tradeoff has moved. I don't think that's really an argument against Firefox, but consider that powerusers are often very conservative, I'm not surprised that it caused some disagreement.
Part of the old tradeoff was that extension writers could do almost anything to make the web browser do almost anything. Nowadays, extensions are much less flexible. I think for good reason: being able to click a few buttons and get pwned isn't really a desirable feature. But the tradeoff has moved. I don't think that's really an argument against Firefox, but consider that powerusers are often very conservative, I'm not surprised that it caused some disagreement.
Has Mozilla explained whether or not they are not handing your data over to Google?
Which data are you talking about?
The only thing I know of that's similar to that is how Mozilla has Google Analytics on some pages as part of the Firefox interface, but there they have a contract restricting how the data is used: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=697436#c14
(Disclosure: I work for Google, speaking only for myself)
The only thing I know of that's similar to that is how Mozilla has Google Analytics on some pages as part of the Firefox interface, but there they have a contract restricting how the data is used: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=697436#c14
(Disclosure: I work for Google, speaking only for myself)
Mozilla does not handle data over to Google.
> particularly knowing that Firefox is pretty much kept alive at Google's whim.
This is simply not so. Google pays to be the default search engine on Firefox because it is beneficial for them. Had they not, this place would be bought out by Bing or whoever else, and in the end Google will lose more.
This is simply not so. Google pays to be the default search engine on Firefox because it is beneficial for them. Had they not, this place would be bought out by Bing or whoever else, and in the end Google will lose more.
it would be great if we can move past the browser and debundle the tech, for example we should have a few different JS engines, a few different CS engines and a multitude of different GUIs ...
> So Mozilla tries to move in Chrome's direction, removing configuration options and "dumbing down" the UI, which frustrates its existing user base (including me) while apparently also failing to eat into Chrome's market share.
The funny thing about this is that it's a narrative, but is it correct? Configuration options may be low, but Chrome has added things like tab groups and a reading list / bookmarks sidebar. They're in no way aiming to be as customizable as Vivaldi/presto!Opera/xulExtensions!Firefox, but even stock Chrome is actually adding useful features, while most news I've seen from Firefox have been them removing unique features I've used and loved, like being able to sync keyword searches via bookmarks.
The only significant feature I've seen them add - and it's a doozy, I admit - is Containers. But that's cold comfort when other features get removed at a steady rate.
> It seems that the market niche of tech-capable people who value privacy and customisation over a simplified UX is not capable of sustaining Firefox on its own.
This may be true, but it can really come down to quality of product: Firefox is losing ground, but Brave for example is growing, and doing it by a privacy sales pitch (with some dumbfucks who think they're going to get rich off BAT added in - it's a cut from Brave's ad revenue, ffs, and individual ad viewers aren't worth shit except en masse when the money pools up at creators' and ad agencies' wallets).
> Okay, did you enable the telemetry that lets them know you use it? Receiving and analysing user data is increasingly important to delivering a good user experience. If open-source projects can't access the same data as proprietary ones do, we can't expect them to be able to react to user demands in the same way, and so we can't expect them to be able to compete in today's market.
This is true, but making decisions purely off telemetry stats and setting up self-fulfilling prophecies of making features harder to find and then saying nobody uses them isn't exactly the way either. Telemetry is a good jumping off point, I think, but as a sole director it's shit precisely because privacy-conscious users are going to turn that shit off if they can out of habit.
> I've never quite understood why Mozilla got such a hard time from users about telemetry.
I think a lot of the Mozilla userbase is from an earlier age, before everything became cloud-based subscription services. They long for the days of locally installable software, buying new versions vs. subscribing to an app, etc. Some are the kind of obstinate FOSS purists who'd use gNewSense even if it meant they had to use their computer as a command line only device.
Think about Pocket, for example. I was one of the abovementioned people and hated its inclusion, and people still grumble about it in part due to the source code, in part just due to the old bad blood.
They'd essentially need a relaunch with a new take and attitude - look at Brave, whose pitch is pretty similar, and how people are a-ok with monetized services within the browser so long as they're opt-in. The product's newer, and so the attitude people come to it is newer. And it's growing.
Finally, there's an issue of focus: The organization increasingly feels like general activists first, custodians of a product second, which is not a vibe much of the competition gives off. Actors like Brave and Vivaldi have firm, in some sense political stances, but they're of a narrower sort of user control and privacy. I know people at both orgs who do/have shown their politics, but it doesn't show at the org/product level. The user? Does. I never, ever want to hear shit like "we need more than deplatforming" from an ostensibly privacy and user centered organization.
The funny thing about this is that it's a narrative, but is it correct? Configuration options may be low, but Chrome has added things like tab groups and a reading list / bookmarks sidebar. They're in no way aiming to be as customizable as Vivaldi/presto!Opera/xulExtensions!Firefox, but even stock Chrome is actually adding useful features, while most news I've seen from Firefox have been them removing unique features I've used and loved, like being able to sync keyword searches via bookmarks.
The only significant feature I've seen them add - and it's a doozy, I admit - is Containers. But that's cold comfort when other features get removed at a steady rate.
> It seems that the market niche of tech-capable people who value privacy and customisation over a simplified UX is not capable of sustaining Firefox on its own.
This may be true, but it can really come down to quality of product: Firefox is losing ground, but Brave for example is growing, and doing it by a privacy sales pitch (with some dumbfucks who think they're going to get rich off BAT added in - it's a cut from Brave's ad revenue, ffs, and individual ad viewers aren't worth shit except en masse when the money pools up at creators' and ad agencies' wallets).
> Okay, did you enable the telemetry that lets them know you use it? Receiving and analysing user data is increasingly important to delivering a good user experience. If open-source projects can't access the same data as proprietary ones do, we can't expect them to be able to react to user demands in the same way, and so we can't expect them to be able to compete in today's market.
This is true, but making decisions purely off telemetry stats and setting up self-fulfilling prophecies of making features harder to find and then saying nobody uses them isn't exactly the way either. Telemetry is a good jumping off point, I think, but as a sole director it's shit precisely because privacy-conscious users are going to turn that shit off if they can out of habit.
> I've never quite understood why Mozilla got such a hard time from users about telemetry.
I think a lot of the Mozilla userbase is from an earlier age, before everything became cloud-based subscription services. They long for the days of locally installable software, buying new versions vs. subscribing to an app, etc. Some are the kind of obstinate FOSS purists who'd use gNewSense even if it meant they had to use their computer as a command line only device.
Think about Pocket, for example. I was one of the abovementioned people and hated its inclusion, and people still grumble about it in part due to the source code, in part just due to the old bad blood.
They'd essentially need a relaunch with a new take and attitude - look at Brave, whose pitch is pretty similar, and how people are a-ok with monetized services within the browser so long as they're opt-in. The product's newer, and so the attitude people come to it is newer. And it's growing.
Finally, there's an issue of focus: The organization increasingly feels like general activists first, custodians of a product second, which is not a vibe much of the competition gives off. Actors like Brave and Vivaldi have firm, in some sense political stances, but they're of a narrower sort of user control and privacy. I know people at both orgs who do/have shown their politics, but it doesn't show at the org/product level. The user? Does. I never, ever want to hear shit like "we need more than deplatforming" from an ostensibly privacy and user centered organization.
> It's a depressing situation, particularly knowing that Firefox is pretty much kept alive at Google's whim.
Firefox or the (quite lost) Mozilla Corp ? They're not the same.
Firefox or the (quite lost) Mozilla Corp ? They're not the same.
I think part of this discussion needs to be that Firefox, while open source, doesn't provide footing for the community to build browser forks the way Chromium does. This sort of open usage, ironically, feels very fitting to the spirit of Firefox, but they're not even close to Chrom(e|ium).
I've been building a browser full time the past year+ (synth.app) and FF core wasn't really even an option. They've done very little to make the engine usable outside of Firefox.
Now I'm sure there are a variety of savory and unsavory things that led here, but building that stuff out seems like a good way to grow the ecosystem. At least they would've had a chance at capturing the Brave/Opera/Edge/etc market and those seats at the committees.
This isn't to say that I'm not worried about these standards merging like this. I've spent many hours working out weird chromium only behaviors that websites rely on these days to do things (and egregiously so if they detect an agent remotely resembling chrome).
I've been building a browser full time the past year+ (synth.app) and FF core wasn't really even an option. They've done very little to make the engine usable outside of Firefox.
Now I'm sure there are a variety of savory and unsavory things that led here, but building that stuff out seems like a good way to grow the ecosystem. At least they would've had a chance at capturing the Brave/Opera/Edge/etc market and those seats at the committees.
This isn't to say that I'm not worried about these standards merging like this. I've spent many hours working out weird chromium only behaviors that websites rely on these days to do things (and egregiously so if they detect an agent remotely resembling chrome).
That's a real missed opportunity. Firefox would have made a fantastic embedded webview, and could have plausibly become the core of Electron. Back when webviews were IE, with atrocious Javascript support and all the usual IE quirks, Firefox was a superior product and interconnecting with other software is very in line with the open source ethos.
That opportunity is still there.
Enough features to distinguish on, enough political/managerial reasons for choosing an independent FLOSS engine over one controlled by Google.
Sure, Edge/MS won't move to this engine anywhere soon. Nor will Brave switch over tomorrow, or electron rebuild around their tooling. But the world is full or "HTML-2-PDF renderers, headless testing toolkits, (embedded) webview-libraries or electron-alike toolkits, which are now almost all exclusively Chromium based.
Enough features to distinguish on, enough political/managerial reasons for choosing an independent FLOSS engine over one controlled by Google.
Sure, Edge/MS won't move to this engine anywhere soon. Nor will Brave switch over tomorrow, or electron rebuild around their tooling. But the world is full or "HTML-2-PDF renderers, headless testing toolkits, (embedded) webview-libraries or electron-alike toolkits, which are now almost all exclusively Chromium based.
I think that is a problem many open source programs have, and could improve.
A lot of GUI based programs should think of implementing parts of it as a library others can use. I remember early Git implementations in IDEs where they just ran git commands in the background and parsed the command line output. Imagine if the same had been done with SQLite, would it still be as popular today?
I don't have much experience with creating desktop software, but it seems to me that separating the GUI from the "engine" would bring other benefits too.
I have often looked at OSS and wanted to use parts of it myself. An email client might have a really good mail parser that handles encoding, attachments etc. But decoupling it from the rest of the program would take too much time.
A lot of GUI based programs should think of implementing parts of it as a library others can use. I remember early Git implementations in IDEs where they just ran git commands in the background and parsed the command line output. Imagine if the same had been done with SQLite, would it still be as popular today?
I don't have much experience with creating desktop software, but it seems to me that separating the GUI from the "engine" would bring other benefits too.
I have often looked at OSS and wanted to use parts of it myself. An email client might have a really good mail parser that handles encoding, attachments etc. But decoupling it from the rest of the program would take too much time.
> ... weird chromium only behaviors that websites rely on these days to do things (and egregiously so if they detect an agent remotely resembling chrome).
This sounds like the IE6 disaster all over again.
This sounds like the IE6 disaster all over again.
oh man. I need to find some time to write about how bad it is.
The gnarliness spans the whole stack. From weird java-applet like API escalation behavior if chrome is detected (e.g. Google properties feature gate a ton around this) to how there is not even a clear way to get a DRM license for a custom browser without waiting for Google indefinitely [1].
Here's a challenge: fire up a chromium fork and get it to run a relaxed DRM website like Netflix. If you get that far now try loading HBOMax with their fingerprinting/DRM protection on top. I'm not even sure it'd be possible in FF (at least without some DRM piggy backing if there isn't one).
[1] https://blog.samuelmaddock.com/posts/google-widevine-blocked...
The gnarliness spans the whole stack. From weird java-applet like API escalation behavior if chrome is detected (e.g. Google properties feature gate a ton around this) to how there is not even a clear way to get a DRM license for a custom browser without waiting for Google indefinitely [1].
Here's a challenge: fire up a chromium fork and get it to run a relaxed DRM website like Netflix. If you get that far now try loading HBOMax with their fingerprinting/DRM protection on top. I'm not even sure it'd be possible in FF (at least without some DRM piggy backing if there isn't one).
[1] https://blog.samuelmaddock.com/posts/google-widevine-blocked...
Yup, as someone who worked on fixing issues with IE5/IE6/IE7 behaviours I definitely feel the slow burning fire of Chrome repeating that whole saga once again. And probably in a much more painful way given the explosive growth of the internet and browsers since the early 2000s (I started working with web dev around 2005).
Plenty of people said this would happen when chrome started dominating, but since people refused to switch browsers, here we are.
this guy said it best https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYT2se94eU0&t=1414s
> Firefox, while open source, doesn't provide footing for the community to build browser forks
Say hello to https://servo.org/.
Say hello to https://servo.org/.
I wonder how difficult would be an open source community project whose explicit aim would be to take the Firefox code base and make it more modular and embeddable, like Chromium? Would it be too much work for a community effort?
Electron, but based on Firefox instead of chrome.
Not the most appealing idea, but an interesting one. Might help move more people to essentially using Firefox.
Not the most appealing idea, but an interesting one. Might help move more people to essentially using Firefox.
Mozilla has been trying to build an Electron alternative based on Gecko, but it has been discontinued
https://github.com/mozilla/positron
https://github.com/mozilla/positron
They also had XULRunner… I was even lucky enough to have been using it in a professional context. Unfortunately it wasn't well supported; trying to submit patches was always painful, and framing issues as a Firefox bug was slightly more likely to get things merged. I imagine it's easier than landing changes in Chromium (because Electron is a completely separate project), at least.
Even if possible, such an initiative could only be successful if Mozilla supports it otherwise the “new” code will quickly go out of sync with the Firefox codebase.
> Firefox, while open source, doesn't provide footing for the community to build browser forks the way Chromium does.
This reminds that Wine uses Mozilla code for their Internet Explorer replacement (wine-gecko). I wonder how far behind Firefox's rendering engine that code is, and how much effort is involved for the Wine maintainers.
https://wiki.winehq.org/Gecko
This reminds that Wine uses Mozilla code for their Internet Explorer replacement (wine-gecko). I wonder how far behind Firefox's rendering engine that code is, and how much effort is involved for the Wine maintainers.
https://wiki.winehq.org/Gecko
As a Vivaldi user I would really like to see more growth in this area. There are some great ideas in browser forks and I would like to enable them.
They had that with XUL and threw it all away. I remember using a XUL music player called Songbird back in the day
I used to hold the same opinion: Google controls the world because everything is Blink/Chromium based! Must use Firefox to protest!
Then I looked closer look at the history of Chromium and Blink.
The reality is that a lot of the other "Chromium-based" browsers actually only use the Blink renderer. They don't use many (if any) other Chromium components other than probably V8.
In ancient times, Blink itself was a fork of Webkit. So, does that mean Apple controls everything?? But Webkit actually came from KDE's KHTML, didn't it.. Linux wins...
The kicker for me is: Blink and V8 are open source, and anyone can fork them at any time. Because of this, Microsoft, Oracle, Brave - every "Chromium" based browser vendor is contributing code. So does Google really control us that much? Blink and V8 make a rock solid browser core and are being worked on by a lot of companies, not just Google. It's like the Linux kernel - kind of a marvel of open source. Not something we need to fight against so viciously, in my opinion.
(Edit: "rock solid" might sound extreme to some... The HTML and JS specs are absurdly complex to the point where there's basically no hope of anyone implementing them from 0. There's a lot of bloat in modern web, no doubt. But if you're really worried about crazy JS features cluttering your browsing experience, you can go clone the Chromium source and pull out the crap you don't like.)
Then I looked closer look at the history of Chromium and Blink.
The reality is that a lot of the other "Chromium-based" browsers actually only use the Blink renderer. They don't use many (if any) other Chromium components other than probably V8.
In ancient times, Blink itself was a fork of Webkit. So, does that mean Apple controls everything?? But Webkit actually came from KDE's KHTML, didn't it.. Linux wins...
The kicker for me is: Blink and V8 are open source, and anyone can fork them at any time. Because of this, Microsoft, Oracle, Brave - every "Chromium" based browser vendor is contributing code. So does Google really control us that much? Blink and V8 make a rock solid browser core and are being worked on by a lot of companies, not just Google. It's like the Linux kernel - kind of a marvel of open source. Not something we need to fight against so viciously, in my opinion.
(Edit: "rock solid" might sound extreme to some... The HTML and JS specs are absurdly complex to the point where there's basically no hope of anyone implementing them from 0. There's a lot of bloat in modern web, no doubt. But if you're really worried about crazy JS features cluttering your browsing experience, you can go clone the Chromium source and pull out the crap you don't like.)
> So does Google really control us that much?
Yes. Contributing code to something doesn't mean that you suddenly control the direction of that thing. Google still makes the big decisions about what gets to enter the codebase: which web features to support, which ones to deprecate, how to interpret standards, and how to slowly align the web with their own financial incentives.
Yes. Contributing code to something doesn't mean that you suddenly control the direction of that thing. Google still makes the big decisions about what gets to enter the codebase: which web features to support, which ones to deprecate, how to interpret standards, and how to slowly align the web with their own financial incentives.
>Yes. Contributing code to something doesn't mean that you suddenly control the direction of that thing.
I think the idea of gp's point about others forking code means the forkers can also influence the code because they control the fork.
Otherwise, if we take your comment at face value, we'd conclude that Google's contributions to Webkit means it can't "suddenly control the direction" of Apple's Webkit. That's true, but also becomes irrelevant because Google controls its fork of "Blink".
In other words, does Apple's Webkit control us that much? No, because it seems like Google's Blink/Chromium is sufficiently independent. If we go back farther in the timeline, are we concerned that KHTML controls us? No, because it seems like Apple's fork of Webkit is independent and not beholden to KHTML decisions.
If Microsoft really wanted to, it seems like they have the resources to do what Apple did to KHTML and what Chrome did to Webkit.
I think the idea of gp's point about others forking code means the forkers can also influence the code because they control the fork.
Otherwise, if we take your comment at face value, we'd conclude that Google's contributions to Webkit means it can't "suddenly control the direction" of Apple's Webkit. That's true, but also becomes irrelevant because Google controls its fork of "Blink".
In other words, does Apple's Webkit control us that much? No, because it seems like Google's Blink/Chromium is sufficiently independent. If we go back farther in the timeline, are we concerned that KHTML controls us? No, because it seems like Apple's fork of Webkit is independent and not beholden to KHTML decisions.
If Microsoft really wanted to, it seems like they have the resources to do what Apple did to KHTML and what Chrome did to Webkit.
This makes no sense because it ignores the reality that unlike KHTML, or WebKit, the vast majority of browsers were not based on those rendering engines. There was never a time where a web app developer saw your browser was not Webkit or KHTML based and told you to upgrade to them on every platform. There was never a time where KHTML or Webkit completely dominated browser share.
There was also a much wider array of browser engines at the time (MS had 2, Opera had 1, Firefox had much higher market share than it does today).
So KHTML/Webkit hardly had control over the web the way Chromium might because they never had the market share Chromium did, and further, they were never the dominant engine embedded in nearly every browser the way Chromium/Blink are now.
There was also a much wider array of browser engines at the time (MS had 2, Opera had 1, Firefox had much higher market share than it does today).
So KHTML/Webkit hardly had control over the web the way Chromium might because they never had the market share Chromium did, and further, they were never the dominant engine embedded in nearly every browser the way Chromium/Blink are now.
I guess the question I'd ask here is: why does it matter that Chromium has massive market share?
The usual answer I see is along the lines of "because Google is too big, has too much control". To reiterate the original argument in this thread: Chromium being open source makes this a hard sell.
Maybe there's another reason I've missed, though!
The usual answer I see is along the lines of "because Google is too big, has too much control". To reiterate the original argument in this thread: Chromium being open source makes this a hard sell.
Maybe there's another reason I've missed, though!
There are forks, and there are forks. If you take a codebase like Blink, fork it, and commit to maintaining that fork entirely by yourself independent of the upstream then yeah, what the upstream does at that point is kinda irrelevant. If, however, you're still relying on upstream for important patches and you're just rebasing your small changeset on top of that every so often, then there are limits to how far you can diverge from upstream before pulling in those necessary changes becomes impractical.
If I understand correctly, Edge, Opera, Brave, Vivaldi, etc are all running on the later type of Blink "fork".
Does Google still contribute to Webkit? I was under the impression that stopped a long time ago after Blink and Webkit sufficiently diverged.
If I understand correctly, Edge, Opera, Brave, Vivaldi, etc are all running on the later type of Blink "fork".
Does Google still contribute to Webkit? I was under the impression that stopped a long time ago after Blink and Webkit sufficiently diverged.
> The HTML and JS specs are absurdly complex to the point where there's basically no hope of anyone implementing them from 0
That's actually being done in the Serenity OS project! HTML renderer, JS interpreter, and Web Browser, from scratch:
https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLMOpZvQB55beChggmvk-s...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLMOpZvQB55be0Nfytz9q2...
That's actually being done in the Serenity OS project! HTML renderer, JS interpreter, and Web Browser, from scratch:
https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLMOpZvQB55beChggmvk-s...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLMOpZvQB55be0Nfytz9q2...
True. People forgot that Microsoft had been developing its own browser for years before they moved to Chromium. That team and expertise didn't just disappear. They've been doing significant work in that code base. See https://twitter.com/ericlaw/status/1329200077517295618 from a year ago. Having that technical power does give them quite a lot of control over the code base which can help balance the political power here.
No web developer old enough will ever forget, I promise you that.
I have not forgotten, but Gates and Ballmer are gone and the market situation for MS is totally different. People don't have to take their Evil Empire monopolist crap of the past.
That doesn't stop them from trying though, and there are plenty of examples from recent times that prove that the difference between the old MS and the new MS are much smaller than their PR department would like you to believe.
The biggest difference is that the new MS is no longer selling you software but access to software.
The biggest difference is that the new MS is no longer selling you software but access to software.
> People don't have to take their Evil Empire monopolist crap of the past.
Advertising in the Start Menu enters the room
Often enough, it feels as if there are two brains inside Microsoft - shiny new MS with Azure, WSL, VSCode on the one side, and old, schoolyard bully MS with advertising, telemetry, forcing cloud everywhere on the other side.
Advertising in the Start Menu enters the room
Often enough, it feels as if there are two brains inside Microsoft - shiny new MS with Azure, WSL, VSCode on the one side, and old, schoolyard bully MS with advertising, telemetry, forcing cloud everywhere on the other side.
But given the recent developments with Edge, I'm not sure if Microsoft's political power is of much practical benefit to the community.
>I used to hold the same opinion: Google controls the world because everything is Blink/Chromium based! Must use Firefox to protest!
The end users don't care about who controls what. They care about having a simple, fast browser who just works.
The end users don't care about who controls what. They care about having a simple, fast browser who just works.
> They care about having a simple, fast browser who just works.
Case in point: on a fresh install of Ubuntu googling for adblock using Firefox (yes, I know, stupid) leads straight to Google ramming Chrome down your throat.
People said this about IE as well.
In fact, what's often forgotten is that even before MS's illegal monopolization, IE dominated Netscape because it was genuinely better.
But a few short years later it was regular end users who were suffering due to IE and it's lack of competition, which led to MS sleeping on it and letting security issues (both technical and social) pile up.
In fact, what's often forgotten is that even before MS's illegal monopolization, IE dominated Netscape because it was genuinely better.
But a few short years later it was regular end users who were suffering due to IE and it's lack of competition, which led to MS sleeping on it and letting security issues (both technical and social) pile up.
Exactly. So what if Google controls the internet experience through Chromium. The user will have to pay someone eventually. Firefox is not a free magic bullet.
On the other hand, much bigger problems in the world, so we go build something else instead of reinventing what Google has already built.
On the other hand, much bigger problems in the world, so we go build something else instead of reinventing what Google has already built.
Almost all of Blink has been rewritten from the time of the fork from webkit.
and almost all of Webkit has been rewritten from the time of the fork from khtml.
and almost all of Webkit has been rewritten from the time of the fork from khtml.
KDE now uses Blink to render KHTML IIRC.
KDE relies heavily on the Qt libraries and Qt is using Blink in their QtWebEngine[1]. There's even a web browser called Falkon (The KDE browser, kind of) that uses this library[2].
[1]: https://wiki.qt.io/QtWebEngine
[2]: https://www.falkon.org/about/
[1]: https://wiki.qt.io/QtWebEngine
[2]: https://www.falkon.org/about/
The real problem of Firefox is one that nobody cares about: distribution.
Let's say Firefox is the most advanced browser of the universe. How can you get people to install Firefox?
Chrome has the advantage here because it is preinstalled in every Android phone and Android has more than 90% market share.
The second advantage Chrome has is that it cannot be uninstalled from Android. The fact that Android phones have a limited storage space is a compelling reason to not install a second browser.
The third advantage Chrome has is the fact that more than 90% of people use Google has search engine and every time you access google.com with a browser other than Chrome you get a "Switch to Chrome" notification telling you that Chrome will help you "hide" annoying ads (without telling you that Google is responsible for the annoying ads) and you will be safe against malware. The regular user fears malwares and viruses more than ads or anything else because they think their bank account info will be stolen, so better security is a compelling reason to install Chrome.
Please, tell me, how do Firefox or any other browser can compete with the fact that Google is abusing their dominance of the search engine market and the mobile phone market to "force" people to use Chrome?
Let's say Firefox is the most advanced browser of the universe. How can you get people to install Firefox?
Chrome has the advantage here because it is preinstalled in every Android phone and Android has more than 90% market share.
The second advantage Chrome has is that it cannot be uninstalled from Android. The fact that Android phones have a limited storage space is a compelling reason to not install a second browser.
The third advantage Chrome has is the fact that more than 90% of people use Google has search engine and every time you access google.com with a browser other than Chrome you get a "Switch to Chrome" notification telling you that Chrome will help you "hide" annoying ads (without telling you that Google is responsible for the annoying ads) and you will be safe against malware. The regular user fears malwares and viruses more than ads or anything else because they think their bank account info will be stolen, so better security is a compelling reason to install Chrome.
Please, tell me, how do Firefox or any other browser can compete with the fact that Google is abusing their dominance of the search engine market and the mobile phone market to "force" people to use Chrome?
Firefox had more than 30% market share at their peak, against pre-installed IE and Microsoft aggressive tactics. It was before the ballot screen.
Together with Chrome, they ended up beating IE, at the time neither had a significant advantage in distribution, at least compared to IE.
So in theory, Chrome can be beaten, except that unlike IE, Chrome doesn't suck, in fact, about the only thing going for Firefox is that it is not Chrome.
Together with Chrome, they ended up beating IE, at the time neither had a significant advantage in distribution, at least compared to IE.
So in theory, Chrome can be beaten, except that unlike IE, Chrome doesn't suck, in fact, about the only thing going for Firefox is that it is not Chrome.
Google: ‘We don’t force people to use Chrome! We just ask them again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again…’
I mean that's why people used to call certain software nagware.
Are you talking about Chrome or Edge?
Both are better than Safari on iOS though, which does force you to use it.
Both are better than Safari on iOS though, which does force you to use it.
> Are you talking about Chrome or Edge?
Yes.
Yes.
To me some of the things you mention sound like anticompetitive practices from behalf of Google.
A browser installed by default that can't be removed... where have I heard that one before? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_C....
People always cite this case but the software landscape has massively changed since the ruling and there's no way the courts would go this way again. Every single device you buy has a bundled web browser that is for all practical purposes unremovable.
Microsoft used these same anti competitive practices with Windows and Internet Explorer and they got an antitrust lawsuit.
Always wondered how Google can pull it off then. I assume their legal team figured out the threshold of what they can do, and now they do threshold - 1 so "it's ok"?
Probably yes, but I think the market does not care about anti competitive practices anymore because everyone is trying to do the same thing, the difference between Google and them is the scale.
Well, the engine has to be there for all the apps that use a WebView and are expecting Chromium to embed that webview (in terms of utilizing any css/js quirks so that the experience is guaranteed consistent across vendors), so "deleting" chrome wouldn't do anything more than how deleting Safari on iOS just hides the app icon away [in App Library].
I don't disagree with this comment, but it's worth noting Chrome was already rising to dominance as a desktop browser before Android/mobile internet usage became a significant factor.
Somehow even with Microsoft promoting IE on their platform, people still chose to install an alternative.
Somehow even with Microsoft promoting IE on their platform, people still chose to install an alternative.
Nobody cares about? Mozilla tried to solve this exact problem with Boot2Gecko/FirefoxOS phones and failed.
Did it really fail? The fork, KaiOS, seems to do pretty well:
https://www.kaiostech.com/company/our-story/
They claim that they are on 160 million devices.
And based on this:
https://data.firefox.com/dashboard/user-activity
Firefox has about 220 million users at the moment.
So, I wouldn't say that FirefoxOS failed, it just failed in their hand.
https://www.kaiostech.com/company/our-story/
They claim that they are on 160 million devices.
And based on this:
https://data.firefox.com/dashboard/user-activity
Firefox has about 220 million users at the moment.
So, I wouldn't say that FirefoxOS failed, it just failed in their hand.
>They claim that they are on 160 million devices.
How many of those are active devices?
How many of those are active devices?
Users don't care.
Internet Explorer used to have that edvantage - included in Windows but most people used it to download Chrome because Chrome was better in various ways. I think the problem with Firefox is it's not noticeably better. Not sure how you fix that though.
Parts of this are comedy.
> For me Firefox is the only alternative to a complete Chrome hegemony in the sense that:
> it’s open-source in the real sense (a project that’s truly community-driven)
I missed when the community wanted to do away with tab groups, compact mode, or keyword searches synced via bookmarks. The project is handled by a corporation with a multimillion dollar advertising deal with one of the EvilCorps. Uhh, yeah.
> it has a great track record of fighting for its users and for a better Internet.
Last I checked, it's owned by a foundation that's very okay with advocating that others tell me what I should see on the 'net. "We need more than deplatforming" are not words I ever want to hear from a privacy organization's mouth. That and "fighting for its users" don't exactly go together, unless you believe the Foundation's purpose is to be its users' moral custodian in matters that are not tech-related.
The whole sales pitch of this thing is "you should use a browser that increasingly sucks, that's increasingly lacking in support, whose stewards get their money from EvilCorp and cheerfully advocate for Internet censorship, all because they use a different browser engine". When my option would be to use browsers that do not suck and actually improve release by release, have revenue streams not so beholden to EvilCorp and put their makers' personal politics aside for user control and privacy.
Choices, choices.
> For me Firefox is the only alternative to a complete Chrome hegemony in the sense that:
> it’s open-source in the real sense (a project that’s truly community-driven)
I missed when the community wanted to do away with tab groups, compact mode, or keyword searches synced via bookmarks. The project is handled by a corporation with a multimillion dollar advertising deal with one of the EvilCorps. Uhh, yeah.
> it has a great track record of fighting for its users and for a better Internet.
Last I checked, it's owned by a foundation that's very okay with advocating that others tell me what I should see on the 'net. "We need more than deplatforming" are not words I ever want to hear from a privacy organization's mouth. That and "fighting for its users" don't exactly go together, unless you believe the Foundation's purpose is to be its users' moral custodian in matters that are not tech-related.
The whole sales pitch of this thing is "you should use a browser that increasingly sucks, that's increasingly lacking in support, whose stewards get their money from EvilCorp and cheerfully advocate for Internet censorship, all because they use a different browser engine". When my option would be to use browsers that do not suck and actually improve release by release, have revenue streams not so beholden to EvilCorp and put their makers' personal politics aside for user control and privacy.
Choices, choices.
> "We need more than deplatforming" are not words I ever want to hear from a privacy organization's mouth.
Any entity participating in a democratic society should be allowed to voice their support for keeping said society healthy. Antivaxxers and "the vote was stolen!!!" putsch supporters are a direct threat towards society itself.
There are things in a society where standing "impartially" aside is taking a stand in itself - a stand on the side of those who want to destroy society.
Any entity participating in a democratic society should be allowed to voice their support for keeping said society healthy. Antivaxxers and "the vote was stolen!!!" putsch supporters are a direct threat towards society itself.
There are things in a society where standing "impartially" aside is taking a stand in itself - a stand on the side of those who want to destroy society.
> Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them
~ Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies, 1945
~ Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies, 1945
> putsch supporters are a direct threat towards society
What is your feeling towards the summer 2021 rioters? Are they a threat towards society?
What is your feeling towards the summer 2021 rioters? Are they a threat towards society?
Did they attack the seat of government with the explicit goal of abducting, raping and killing elected officials, to interfere with a democratic process and establish autocratic rule? No? There's your answer then.
At least 25 Americans were killed during protests and political unrest in 2020.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/31/americans-kill...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/31/americans-kill...
Yes, a few of the protestors were killed by the state. It's sad, but I'm not sure what the point you're trying to make is.
No. Not by the state. As a result of the riots. These people wouldn't have been dead had it not been for the riots. Read the article and don't skip things that don't agree with you.
Chanting "Say her name" is freedom of speech.
Breaking and entering into the seat of government [1], building gallows in preparation for hangings [2] and calling for the murder of the Vice President [3] is not.
Please don't try to disingenuously draw a false equivalency here. Your whataboutism is supporting attempted murder and contributing to the destabilization of the country.
[1] https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/11/24/nation/newly-released...
[2] https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2021-01-1...
[3] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/watch-video-shows-capi...
Breaking and entering into the seat of government [1], building gallows in preparation for hangings [2] and calling for the murder of the Vice President [3] is not.
Please don't try to disingenuously draw a false equivalency here. Your whataboutism is supporting attempted murder and contributing to the destabilization of the country.
[1] https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/11/24/nation/newly-released...
[2] https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2021-01-1...
[3] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/watch-video-shows-capi...
You are just dead set to not see what you don't want to see. The link I posted was about the mob attacking Ron Paul. A sitting senator. He likely would have been injured or dead had it not been for the police. The article isn't about chanting.
You asked "Did they attack the seat of government with the explicit goal of abducting, raping and killing elected officials". This is an "explicit" example of the mob attacking an elected US senator. Or it only counts when "right" people are attacked?
You also stated: "to interfere with a democratic process and establish autocratic rule". That's exactly what Seattle's “Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone” was - an attempt to interfere with a democratic process. Last I checked, no one has elected those people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Occupied_Protest
So if you are condemn capital riots, don't forget the summer riots as well.
You asked "Did they attack the seat of government with the explicit goal of abducting, raping and killing elected officials". This is an "explicit" example of the mob attacking an elected US senator. Or it only counts when "right" people are attacked?
You also stated: "to interfere with a democratic process and establish autocratic rule". That's exactly what Seattle's “Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone” was - an attempt to interfere with a democratic process. Last I checked, no one has elected those people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Occupied_Protest
So if you are condemn capital riots, don't forget the summer riots as well.
The US bombed and invaded other countries to fight authoritarians, most notably my home country of Germany in 1941-1945.
These days, the US lets their ideological successors sit in Congress and no one bats an eye. What a disgrace. Not that I like violence, it should not be a tool that's used in political discourse, but nevertheless - people like him, MT Greene and Boebert should not even be remotely near the Congress to begin with!
These days, the US lets their ideological successors sit in Congress and no one bats an eye. What a disgrace. Not that I like violence, it should not be a tool that's used in political discourse, but nevertheless - people like him, MT Greene and Boebert should not even be remotely near the Congress to begin with!
> Last I checked, it's owned by a foundation that's very okay with advocating that others tell me what I should see on the 'net. "We need more than deplatforming" are not words I ever want to hear from a privacy organization's mouth.
Ugh, I dislike the title of that post. I still claim that you're misinterpreting it, though. It should have been something like "We need better answers than deplatforming." Deplatforming is not the answer, and we need better ones.
Sometimes deplatforming is the right answer. Not when it's about a political agenda, but there are many many actually harmful uses out there, many of them illegal, and ignoring those on your platform is the same as facilitating them. But deplatforming is about as effective as sticking your finger in a dike for truly improving things.
In my opinion, Mozilla has done a decent job of being apolitical when possible. Yes, it does think you shouldn't see some things on the 'net, but those things are things like scams and malicious disinformation. It does not say that you should not see the latest blatherings of Trump or whoever, except perhaps when they're directly encouraging violence or sedition.
Ugh, I dislike the title of that post. I still claim that you're misinterpreting it, though. It should have been something like "We need better answers than deplatforming." Deplatforming is not the answer, and we need better ones.
Sometimes deplatforming is the right answer. Not when it's about a political agenda, but there are many many actually harmful uses out there, many of them illegal, and ignoring those on your platform is the same as facilitating them. But deplatforming is about as effective as sticking your finger in a dike for truly improving things.
In my opinion, Mozilla has done a decent job of being apolitical when possible. Yes, it does think you shouldn't see some things on the 'net, but those things are things like scams and malicious disinformation. It does not say that you should not see the latest blatherings of Trump or whoever, except perhaps when they're directly encouraging violence or sedition.
> In my opinion, Mozilla has done a decent job of being apolitical when possible. Yes, it does think you shouldn't see some things on the 'net, but those things are things like scams and malicious disinformation. It does not say that you should not see the latest blatherings of Trump or whoever, except perhaps when they're directly encouraging violence or sedition.
https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/we-need-more-than-deplat...
> Turn on by default the tools to [amplify factual voices](link points to below) over disinformation.
Their idea of "factual voices"?
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/16/technology/facebook-rever...
> The change resulted in an increase in Facebook traffic for mainstream news publishers including CNN, NPR and The New York Times, while partisan sites like Breitbart and Occupy Democrats saw their numbers fall.
The entire post reeked of political tribalism in a way I don't like from people who make my tools. While seeing less Breitbart and Occupy Democrats might be welcome, Mozilla were completely fine with third parties boosting the visibility of openly partisan organizations who'll happily lie to my face. No, no thanks.
https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/we-need-more-than-deplat...
> Turn on by default the tools to [amplify factual voices](link points to below) over disinformation.
Their idea of "factual voices"?
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/16/technology/facebook-rever...
> The change resulted in an increase in Facebook traffic for mainstream news publishers including CNN, NPR and The New York Times, while partisan sites like Breitbart and Occupy Democrats saw their numbers fall.
The entire post reeked of political tribalism in a way I don't like from people who make my tools. While seeing less Breitbart and Occupy Democrats might be welcome, Mozilla were completely fine with third parties boosting the visibility of openly partisan organizations who'll happily lie to my face. No, no thanks.
> I missed when the community wanted to do away with tab groups, compact mode, or keyword searches synced via bookmarks. The project is handled by a corporation with a multimillion dollar advertising deal with one of the EvilCorps. Uhh, yeah.
Hm? When were keyword searches or compact mode removed? I’m still using them in 94.0
Hm? When were keyword searches or compact mode removed? I’m still using them in 94.0
That's true. They have been gone from Firefox for Android for some time now.
Keyword removal totally dumbed down my browsing experience on mobile. I fear the moment the same will happen on the Desktop version.
Keyword removal totally dumbed down my browsing experience on mobile. I fear the moment the same will happen on the Desktop version.
They're removed from mobile and as far as I know slated for removal on desktop.
> Clearly, that market share was lost solely to Chrome & co.3 I can attribute this decline to various factors:
>Google’s massive development resources and marketing machine. >Most people not thinking about the long-term ramifications of ending up in a market with a single vendor in it. >Firefox losing its status of a shiny new thing over the years. >Mozilla’s inability to capitalize on the popularity of Firefox in the past. I think almost all of their revenue came from a search deal with Google.
The true reasons Firefox lost market share are:
1. Firefox has become a mess
2. Mozilla is terribly mismanaged
To see Firefox thrive, we have to push towards management change while there's still something to be saved or by forking Firefox
>Google’s massive development resources and marketing machine. >Most people not thinking about the long-term ramifications of ending up in a market with a single vendor in it. >Firefox losing its status of a shiny new thing over the years. >Mozilla’s inability to capitalize on the popularity of Firefox in the past. I think almost all of their revenue came from a search deal with Google.
The true reasons Firefox lost market share are:
1. Firefox has become a mess
2. Mozilla is terribly mismanaged
To see Firefox thrive, we have to push towards management change while there's still something to be saved or by forking Firefox
> The true reasons Firefox lost market share
I would say:
The true reasons Firefox lost market share is because we, developer & tech people started to install Chrome on family computers instead of Firefox because it was safer & faster (way way faster). And we never came back from it.
Performance is a feature.
I would say:
The true reasons Firefox lost market share is because we, developer & tech people started to install Chrome on family computers instead of Firefox because it was safer & faster (way way faster). And we never came back from it.
Performance is a feature.
I agree with this opinion.
When Chrome came out, it was way better. Now I don't really see big difference in performance, they have similar extensions, frequent updates, sync, etc.
I prefer Firefox but I don't really need to install it on family computers because whatever browser they use is probably good enough.
When Chrome came out, it was way better. Now I don't really see big difference in performance, they have similar extensions, frequent updates, sync, etc.
I prefer Firefox but I don't really need to install it on family computers because whatever browser they use is probably good enough.
Firefox sync and Chrome sync came out about the same time if I remember correctly. The first release was in Firefox 4.0, but Mozilla Weave (the addon that eventually developed into the first version of Firefox Sync) existed since 2007, before Chrome's first release.
An old Ars Technica article comparing the two protocols (much has changed since then): https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/10/ars-e...
An old Ars Technica article comparing the two protocols (much has changed since then): https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/10/ars-e...
I recently moved back to chromium from Firefox. FF tended to waste a lot more cpu; and, I tend not to restart my machines for days on end, and those memory leaks were killer.
Chromium is just much better built.
Chromium is just much better built.
"developer & tech people started to install Chrome on family computers instead of Firefox..."
I'm not so certain those numbers compare with the 10s of millions of people(100s?) who's default browser was hijacked by nefarious bundles in every 3rd party installer under the sun back in the 2000s and early 2010s.. Those people knew no better and have been conditioned(or just don't care) to continue whatever gets them interneting.
I'm not so certain those numbers compare with the 10s of millions of people(100s?) who's default browser was hijacked by nefarious bundles in every 3rd party installer under the sun back in the 2000s and early 2010s.. Those people knew no better and have been conditioned(or just don't care) to continue whatever gets them interneting.
Why would I even want to install Firefox on my families computer? The thing is, I want them to have a long term, good working solution that doesn't become a pain in my ass. Firefox isn't very stable for non-tech people, that's the sad truth. Mozilla is badly missmanaged, they are killing Mozilla and specially Firefox. Things need to change, badly.
> Firefox isn't very stable for non-tech people, that's the sad truth.
What are you talking about? It's been working flawlessly for many years, without any maintenance for me and my non-technical relatives.
What are you talking about? It's been working flawlessly for many years, without any maintenance for me and my non-technical relatives.
Firefox just pushed yet another pointless UI change six months ago. People using their software just to go about with their lives don't like pointless UI changes.
This. I don't want to have my family asking to teach them how to use the browser everytime Mozilla decides to do a pointless UI change.
Chrome pretty much barely changes where things are and how things behave and it's a pretty fast browser. If you want to fix Firefox go complain with their management.
Chrome pretty much barely changes where things are and how things behave and it's a pretty fast browser. If you want to fix Firefox go complain with their management.
>If you want to fix Firefox go complain with their management.
Despite being an open source project, Firefox management seems to be much less in touch with and responsive to their user's feedback compared to other browsers. As an example, both Safari and Firefox had the same bad idea at about the same time - converting tabs into floating buttons (although in the case of Safari the bad at least served a useful purpose: increasing vertical real estate for the browser). Both got negative feedback. The difference? Firefox management dug their heels deeper and told their users, "suck it up, this is the future of web browsing", whereas Apple listened to the feedback and killed the bad idea during the beta itself.
Yet another example: killing off single site browsing or progressive web apps.
Despite being an open source project, Firefox management seems to be much less in touch with and responsive to their user's feedback compared to other browsers. As an example, both Safari and Firefox had the same bad idea at about the same time - converting tabs into floating buttons (although in the case of Safari the bad at least served a useful purpose: increasing vertical real estate for the browser). Both got negative feedback. The difference? Firefox management dug their heels deeper and told their users, "suck it up, this is the future of web browsing", whereas Apple listened to the feedback and killed the bad idea during the beta itself.
Yet another example: killing off single site browsing or progressive web apps.
Yeah there's need to be changes around Mozilla, something like it happened to AMD I guess, otherwise the latest of us still using Firefox will get tired of it and change to any Chromium-based browser (or Safari...).
On the whole, people using their software just to go about with their lives don't notice pointless UI changes of the scale you're talking about (changing the appearance of tabs). They don't even know what parts of the window are controlled by the application and which parts are controlled by the web page (if they even understand that distinction), and web pages change their UIs a lot faster than Firefox does.
I'm not ironic just puzzled: what was the UI change months ago? I'm using Firefox on two laptops and one Android and haven't noticed it...
Yeah, they changed a lot of stuff, even I, a techy person got confused about it.
What Firefox version are you on?
Always latest - it updates itself everywhere. So if there was a change, it was so minor I haven't even noticed it, less complain about it. But either way: what was the breaking UI change months ago again?
And Chrome pushed another pointless UI change six months before that.
To be fair, he does have a point. Firefox constantly nags you about new "features", the vast majority of which are bullshit (and even if they were useful, ultimately it's still getting in the way at the worst possible time). I could see this throwing less technical users off.
I'm not sure whether Chrome is any worse on this front, but either way Firefox is terribly annoying. I think it's the most user-hostile open source software I know of.
I'm not sure whether Chrome is any worse on this front, but either way Firefox is terribly annoying. I think it's the most user-hostile open source software I know of.
I use firefox exclusively. Every few weeks, it installs an update and refuses to open a new tab until a restart. It frequently fails to restart. It occasionally nukes my session so I can't restore my tabs. It seems to occasionally forget/unset my preference to not auto-update. If it just had a status indicator to show that an update is available, I'd happily update at the end of a workday. Instead, it's interrupted a talk I was giving at work because it silently updated and spontaneously wouldn't let me open a new tab. It's not even stable for tech people.
Are you using Firefox on Linux, installed via a package manager? What you describe is the behaviour when your package manager updates Firefox in the background from under its feet - not the fault of Firefox. Firefox's own updater will not automatically update without warning.
Only, I don't experience anything like this behavior on any other application. This is a Firefox problem, even if Ubuntu is to blame for overriding my setting.
And, no, I just checked. I don't have any auto-updates in Ubuntu either.
And, no, I just checked. I don't have any auto-updates in Ubuntu either.
It's really a you problem. The market share of Linux desktops is low enough that in reality it doesn't matter, and you're pulling the rug(binaries) from underneath a web browser (one of the most complex software projects known to man) and expect it to keep running flawlessly.
I'm using NixOS where every version of every dependency of every program I install will be saved until I cleanup the garbage (1 command) so I don't have your issue.
If this was Windows you wouldn't be able to update Firefox while it was running because Windows doesn't support overwriting open files (technically you can rename them and insert new ones with the same name, but that's not the point).
You're holding it wrong and blaming the project, close the software you update before you update and you might have more success.
I'm using NixOS where every version of every dependency of every program I install will be saved until I cleanup the garbage (1 command) so I don't have your issue.
If this was Windows you wouldn't be able to update Firefox while it was running because Windows doesn't support overwriting open files (technically you can rename them and insert new ones with the same name, but that's not the point).
You're holding it wrong and blaming the project, close the software you update before you update and you might have more success.
Yes. The market share of Firefox is low enough that in reality it doesn't matter. So very insightful. Thank you for showing me the light.
Also, I like that you think that Firefox's default settings is "holding it wrong." That's rather the point, isn't it?
Also, I like that you think that Firefox's default settings is "holding it wrong." That's rather the point, isn't it?
It's not Firefox's default settings, It's a technical challenge that they haven't solved. But that I would argue shouldn't really be solved. _YOU_ chose to update your browser while it was running, you're on a non-mainstream platform (Linux Desktop) and you're unable to grasp that pulling binaries and replacing them with others could cause issues.
Reddit will have you back now.
Reddit will have you back now.
No, Firefox's default setting is to upgrade even more aggressively than I'm experiencing. And, it's worth pointing out, the browser works fine, except that I'm prevented from opening a new tab. Sometimes I really don't want the interruption, and I just copy URLs and recycle tabs. That goes fine, it's just an annoyance considered by the developers to be a feature.
When the distro updates Firefox out from underneath it Firefox's options are; crash because API call does not match, detect the API incompatibility and prompt the user to do a clean restart, or spend a monumental amount of engineering work to maintain API compatibility while running mixed Gecko versions.
Using the Mozilla build in /opt, the Snap [1] or Flatpack [2] versions will avoid the distro updating Firefox out from underneath it.
[1] https://snapcraft.io/firefox [2] https://flathub.org/apps/details/org.mozilla.firefox
Using the Mozilla build in /opt, the Snap [1] or Flatpack [2] versions will avoid the distro updating Firefox out from underneath it.
[1] https://snapcraft.io/firefox [2] https://flathub.org/apps/details/org.mozilla.firefox
Linux also does not allow you to overwrite a running program; you'll get ETXTBSY.
The difference to Windows is that Linux allows you to delete (unlink) files that are in use. The inode actually owning the data continues to exist until the program is dead.
The difference to Windows is that Linux allows you to delete (unlink) files that are in use. The inode actually owning the data continues to exist until the program is dead.
Yes the file still exists physically in disk, but if you were to execute the binary path again, would that give you the old or new result? I'm not sure how Firefox process isolation works, but it could be (armchair guess) that they just spawn the binary with inputs, which would be a possible cause of incompability.
It is pretty annoying. I tried daily driving Firefox for some time, and found it inferior to chrome, though if you'd ask me to define exactly why, I wouldn't be able to do so. However, when an update wiped my profile, requiring manual fixing, that was it. I did restore it, but that shouldn't have been an issue to begin with.
> Firefox isn't very stable for non-tech people
What does this mean?
What does this mean?
[deleted]
I answered that question above.
>The true reasons Firefox lost market share is because we, developer & tech people started to install Chrome on family computers instead of Firefox because it was safer & faster (way way faster). And we never came back from it.
Which comes down to the reasons I've already stated.
Which comes down to the reasons I've already stated.
Those reasons might have applied half a decade ago. I was one of the early adopters of chrome and I've since switched back to Firefox for a better experience
Do you truly, honestly believe that being preinstalled on Android and ChromeOS, advertised specifically to Firefox users on the homepage of the #1 most visited website in the world (google.com, and it was literally the only ad that has ever been allowed there), and shoved into all kinds of installers for Antivirus, Adobe, Java and so on with the "make Chrome my default browser" button automatically checked --- all of that had nothing to do with the "true reason" Firefox has been trending down?
The marketing campaign for Chrome alone, if it is even possible to assign a dollar value to it, would have cost billions of dollars for anyone other than Google.
The marketing campaign for Chrome alone, if it is even possible to assign a dollar value to it, would have cost billions of dollars for anyone other than Google.
>or by forking Firefox
Unfortunately I don't think this will help. If their market share is already low, creating multiple forks makes it even harder for devs to target.
Simply look at desktop software support on Linux for an example of why this doesn't work.
Unfortunately I don't think this will help. If their market share is already low, creating multiple forks makes it even harder for devs to target.
Simply look at desktop software support on Linux for an example of why this doesn't work.
End users don't care about the management of firefox being messy or not. They install the web browsers that are advertised at them. Every time they go to a youtube link or to their gmail inbox there is a banner ad to install google chrome. Corporate IT now installs google chrome by default on work hardware at a lot of organizations because it works out of the box with their google business products, so you are familiar with google chrome from the workplace or even in schools with chromebooks now too. Google has millions of dollars more to blow than Mozilla at this sort of arms race and its shown in the market share.
Firefox is compromised by the fact it’s core active users are also its largest liability. It’s the innovators dilemma. They want it to (more or less) stay the same and not move forward and make changes to compete with Chrome. Whereas for them to achieve a larger market share it needs a radical overhaul. Really what Mozilla need to do is build a “new browser” called something different and put their weight behind that. I thought they were on that path with Servo and the HTML based UI they were developing for it, but I think they bit off more than they could chew and did not move quickly enough.
The tight relationship between rendering engine and browser has been broken by Chrome and its “children” (and in some way also by Apples enforced usage of their WebKit implementation in ios). Mozilla need to follow suit in order to survive, rip that rendering engine out, build a new browser and a “browser toolkit” to let other people build their own.
The tight relationship between rendering engine and browser has been broken by Chrome and its “children” (and in some way also by Apples enforced usage of their WebKit implementation in ios). Mozilla need to follow suit in order to survive, rip that rendering engine out, build a new browser and a “browser toolkit” to let other people build their own.
> They want it to (more or less) stay the same and not move forward and make changes to compete with Chrome.
Most of the negative feedback from users comes from two paths, changes that break add-ons, changes that remove customization. Either of those two effectively reduce the value proposition, so I think negative feedback is granted.
The problem most 'core' users have is this UX ethos that some how we are not having more MAUs because we fail to "make changes to compete with Chrome". This has penetrated the Firefox team and has lead to a copy cat of UX features from Chrome and a 'dummyfication' of UX.
The reason Firefox is unable to compete with Chrome or Edge is not because of missing features or performance. Both Firefox and Edge have million dollar advertisement and OEM agreements. Talk to anybody on the street and everyone and their dog will know Chrome, Firefox not so much. The average users will use whatever is pre-installed. They will not go out of their way because of Chrome-like features.
This causality that somehow Firefox is missing market share because of features or UX is flawed. Firefox is playing a Goliath and David game, with billion dollar revenue companies. Accepting and embracing it's niche nature is a necessary first step.
Most of the negative feedback from users comes from two paths, changes that break add-ons, changes that remove customization. Either of those two effectively reduce the value proposition, so I think negative feedback is granted.
The problem most 'core' users have is this UX ethos that some how we are not having more MAUs because we fail to "make changes to compete with Chrome". This has penetrated the Firefox team and has lead to a copy cat of UX features from Chrome and a 'dummyfication' of UX.
The reason Firefox is unable to compete with Chrome or Edge is not because of missing features or performance. Both Firefox and Edge have million dollar advertisement and OEM agreements. Talk to anybody on the street and everyone and their dog will know Chrome, Firefox not so much. The average users will use whatever is pre-installed. They will not go out of their way because of Chrome-like features.
This causality that somehow Firefox is missing market share because of features or UX is flawed. Firefox is playing a Goliath and David game, with billion dollar revenue companies. Accepting and embracing it's niche nature is a necessary first step.
I can see that, I was using fairly broad strokes in first part of my original comment.
I think it’s the second part that is more important than my initial (potentially unfair) generalisation.
In order to fund further development of gecko it needs to become a competitor to WebKit/blink and grab that market share in this new world of many browser front ends that are cropping up. Explore new business models, for example sign revenue share agreements with new browser developers in exchange for supporting (or even helping with initial funding) their development.
I think it’s the second part that is more important than my initial (potentially unfair) generalisation.
In order to fund further development of gecko it needs to become a competitor to WebKit/blink and grab that market share in this new world of many browser front ends that are cropping up. Explore new business models, for example sign revenue share agreements with new browser developers in exchange for supporting (or even helping with initial funding) their development.
> They want it to (not or less) stay the same and not move forward
I don't think this is true at all. Anecdotally, a lot of Firefox users have been very receptive towards recent changes. Quantum was a huge success and I know very few people that miss the old Firefox with all of its jank.
> Mozilla need to follow suit in order to survive, rip that rendering engine out, build a new browser and a “browser toolkit” to let other people build their own
This is precisely what Servo is: https://servo.org/. Mozilla know what they're doing.
I don't think this is true at all. Anecdotally, a lot of Firefox users have been very receptive towards recent changes. Quantum was a huge success and I know very few people that miss the old Firefox with all of its jank.
> Mozilla need to follow suit in order to survive, rip that rendering engine out, build a new browser and a “browser toolkit” to let other people build their own
This is precisely what Servo is: https://servo.org/. Mozilla know what they're doing.
> This is precisely what Servo is
Great example - because Mozilla binned Servo!
https://twitter.com/steveklabnik/status/1295771633320448001
Great example - because Mozilla binned Servo!
https://twitter.com/steveklabnik/status/1295771633320448001
As the Reddit thread quoted in that Twitter thread explains, Servo was not originally intended meant to replace Gecko. It was a research platform to explore new techniques which could be used in Gecko, and it successfully did that. Indeed, i think it was a pleasant surprise when it turned out WebRender could be ported, rather than rewritten in Gecko.
It is a shame that Servo was shut down, because now there isn't a codebase focused on developing new technology; innovation has to happen in Gecko, alongside being a production system.
It is a shame that Servo was shut down, because now there isn't a codebase focused on developing new technology; innovation has to happen in Gecko, alongside being a production system.
Yes, that was when they seemed to give up, it seems.
I believe they laid off the Servo development team?
Also they moved way to slowly with Servo, starting it as a research project was correct. But they should have gone all in on it years ago.
I know they have taken parts of it and folded them into Firefox, but it should have been the the other way round. Take the bits of Firefox they could and combine them into something new with Servo.
Also they moved way to slowly with Servo, starting it as a research project was correct. But they should have gone all in on it years ago.
I know they have taken parts of it and folded them into Firefox, but it should have been the the other way round. Take the bits of Firefox they could and combine them into something new with Servo.
I think it’s probably easier said than done. Servo did work somewhat for some hardware but there is a very long tail of web and hardware compatibility issues that needs to be chased down.
The problem is that Servo required a lot of things, including Rust, to be mature.
That being said, Servo resulted in the creation of all sorts of technologies.
That being said, Servo resulted in the creation of all sorts of technologies.
Wasn't lot of servo team fired? Or was that some other team? I remember reading about lot of rust people being let go.
> I know very few people that miss the old Firefox with all of its jank.
one vote for the old FF because tabKitv2 is unsurpassed
one vote for the old FF because tabKitv2 is unsurpassed
This sounds like a broad generalization. I have been a Firefox user for many years and I'm happy to see it compete with updates. I like seeing it change.
> The tight relationship between rendering engine and browser has been broken by Chrome and its “children” (and in some way also by Apples enforced usage of their WebKit implementation in ios). Mozilla need to follow suit in order to survive, rip that rendering engine out, build a new browser and a “browser toolkit” to let other people build their own.
Exactly. I would really like to use something google-free, but the interface of Qutebrowser is too good, and Qutebrowser can't use Mozilla's rendering engine, even though the developers would like to.
Exactly. I would really like to use something google-free, but the interface of Qutebrowser is too good, and Qutebrowser can't use Mozilla's rendering engine, even though the developers would like to.
Maybe we should better ask the question why a browser dupoly is bad and what we expect from a competing browser.
I think the core goal is influence: The ability to meaningfully change the web ecosystem or counteract changes that would be harmful.
Of course market share is necessary for influence, but I don't think it's sufficient: If Firefox gained a larger market share but at the cost permanently catching up to Chrome, I don't think a lot would be won.
I think the core goal is influence: The ability to meaningfully change the web ecosystem or counteract changes that would be harmful.
Of course market share is necessary for influence, but I don't think it's sufficient: If Firefox gained a larger market share but at the cost permanently catching up to Chrome, I don't think a lot would be won.
> Really what Mozilla need to do is build a “new browser” called something different and put their weight behind that
Mozilla brand has value in privacy, not browsers. It could start VPN, cloud services, remote backups, smart home, security cameras... Even Android phones with stamp from Mozilla would be great.
There are no money in browsers, it is basically a feed tube from big corporation to its drones. Mozilla should not sponsor large corporations.
Mozilla brand has value in privacy, not browsers. It could start VPN, cloud services, remote backups, smart home, security cameras... Even Android phones with stamp from Mozilla would be great.
There are no money in browsers, it is basically a feed tube from big corporation to its drones. Mozilla should not sponsor large corporations.
I use Firefox for the obvious reasons, but I desperately want it to be as polished as Chrome, which it is a far cry from, especially on Android.
What makes Firefox seem less polished to you than chrome? When I use chrome, the feeling I get is one of standing in an unfurnished office space with white walls and few windows. To me, that is the opposite of polished.
Firefox in comparison feels like being in a grand old house that was built before plumbing and electricity. You can tell that it used to be beautiful and polished, but the luster has faded over time.
Firefox in comparison feels like being in a grand old house that was built before plumbing and electricity. You can tell that it used to be beautiful and polished, but the luster has faded over time.
best comment I've read today! I wish I could double-vote you.
I have been using FF on Android exclusively for 3+ years and never need to switch to Chrome.
In fact, switching to Chrome is agonizing because I lose my adblocker.
In fact, switching to Chrome is agonizing because I lose my adblocker.
Both ad blocking and password manager support are much better on Firefox/Android than on Chrome.
> Firefox is compromised by the fact it’s core active users are also its largest liability. It’s the innovators dilemma. They want it to (more or less) stay the same
How much of the users are actually technical?
The Firefox user share is frequently seen through the lens of technical features, however, I have the suspicion that the vast majority of the audience is regular users who have no idea of anything technical.
How much of the users are actually technical?
The Firefox user share is frequently seen through the lens of technical features, however, I have the suspicion that the vast majority of the audience is regular users who have no idea of anything technical.
> Mozilla need to [...] build a new browser
>and a “browser toolkit” to let other people build their own
XULRunner was mostly like Electron before Electron.
And it could have take succeeded before Electron arrived if Mozilla didn't decide to let the project die.
And it could have take succeeded before Electron arrived if Mozilla didn't decide to let the project die.
The problem is that XUL just didn't work very well. It was one of the reasons Apple decided to go with forking KHTML for the basis of webkit, and Google decided to with forking webkit for the basis of Chromium.
I can attribute this decline to various factors:
In my opinion the author missed a large one: Mozilla chose to chase after Chrome's market share instead of focusing on the reasons people liked Firefox. For years there were a ton of things that made Firefox objectively more powerful for a skilled user than Chrome. Mozilla has burned all of them to the ground.
They could have kept us, the ten percent. Instead they chased the 50% and they will end up with nothing at all. When they write the obituary for Firefox, it will begin with the day they decided if Chrome does something then they have to do it as well. Personally I'd peg the terminal diagnosis for June 21st 2011.
Mozilla should be comparing their user share to their user demographics. When Firefox had thirty percent of the market its users were talking about all the amazing things they could make Firefox do that other browsers couldn't. In 2021 Firefox users pretty much just talk about getting off on Google not knowing what they're up to. What's that get Mozilla? 3.29%. So why is Mozilla hell-bent on the same attitude and pattern of behavior that's been ruining them for a decade?
In my opinion the author missed a large one: Mozilla chose to chase after Chrome's market share instead of focusing on the reasons people liked Firefox. For years there were a ton of things that made Firefox objectively more powerful for a skilled user than Chrome. Mozilla has burned all of them to the ground.
They could have kept us, the ten percent. Instead they chased the 50% and they will end up with nothing at all. When they write the obituary for Firefox, it will begin with the day they decided if Chrome does something then they have to do it as well. Personally I'd peg the terminal diagnosis for June 21st 2011.
Mozilla should be comparing their user share to their user demographics. When Firefox had thirty percent of the market its users were talking about all the amazing things they could make Firefox do that other browsers couldn't. In 2021 Firefox users pretty much just talk about getting off on Google not knowing what they're up to. What's that get Mozilla? 3.29%. So why is Mozilla hell-bent on the same attitude and pattern of behavior that's been ruining them for a decade?
I really love Firefox still.. Though they are starting to annoy me. Especially with GUI changes and the lack of customisation thereof. Like Compact mode disappearing. For the most used app on most desktops, customisation is super important. I think they're jumping on the 'opinionated software' bandwagon too much.
It still has some powerful features though, like E2E encrypted sync, multi-account containers etc. I'll keep using it. But they're aiming at the mainstream too much which has already given up on them. They need to win back the enthusiasts first instead of alienating us. Only then does it make sense to thing about mainstream adoption again.
It still has some powerful features though, like E2E encrypted sync, multi-account containers etc. I'll keep using it. But they're aiming at the mainstream too much which has already given up on them. They need to win back the enthusiasts first instead of alienating us. Only then does it make sense to thing about mainstream adoption again.
You can still re-enable compact mode through about:config (at time of writing). It will nag you not to, but that's all.
I know and I've done this, but the writing is on the wall.. It may disappear at some point and that just annoys me because it's really valuable IMO. It makes me unsure if I want to keep using it when that happens. If they aren't planning to remove it, why remove the UI button for it?
And it just looks so bulky with compact mode off. I tried to get used to it but no. I actually used it without compact mode before, but with the latest version the compact mode is using about the same vertical space as the old normal mode :)
And it just looks so bulky with compact mode off. I tried to get used to it but no. I actually used it without compact mode before, but with the latest version the compact mode is using about the same vertical space as the old normal mode :)
> You can still re-enable X through about:config
Meaning X will be removed within ~three versions.
Meaning X will be removed within ~three versions.
I didn't know/remember about this, just enabled it, great to know!
Instructions: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/compact-mode-workaround...
Now I have some extra vertical pixels :)
Instructions: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/compact-mode-workaround...
Now I have some extra vertical pixels :)
The day Firefox disables my one-line UI is the day I leave Firefox permanently, containers are cool and all but I'll live with it.
I feel the article misses how Firefox's inability to get a foothold on the mobile platform contributed to its decline. There are more people today using web browsers via mobile then desktop. In many poorer countries the first and only access to the open internet for the people is through chrome on Android.
I don't blame Mozilla for this though since they did not have a monopoly on a platform to capitalize on unlike the other players.
Sadly Safari seems to be the only other option.
For a long time Firefox has been dependent on Google for sponsorship. This is a toxic dependency that Firefox hasn't been able to rid itself of and is seeming increasingly less plausible as time goes by.
I don't blame Mozilla for this though since they did not have a monopoly on a platform to capitalize on unlike the other players.
Sadly Safari seems to be the only other option.
For a long time Firefox has been dependent on Google for sponsorship. This is a toxic dependency that Firefox hasn't been able to rid itself of and is seeming increasingly less plausible as time goes by.
I was surprised Mozilla gave up on Servo before realising its potential, particularly for a parallel layout engine, because that could have been a massive advantage on mobile, especially on cheap smartphones which have many cores but each low performance.
Firefox on Android is absolutely excellent these days, but it still shows how Mozilla is really hesitant to embrace it. It's the only mobile browser with really adequate ad-blocking, thanks to extension support. There are a lot of other extensions which are really useful on mobile that aren't on the recommended list, though. I can understand why they restrict extensions (some don't have a viable UI for mobile or would require significant changes), but I recently went through the hoops to install non-approved extensions, and having Privacy Redirect and Stylus are life-changers.
Both Vivaldi and Brave have adblockers built in by default, and Brave's both won't get fucked over by Manifest v3 (since they're part of the browser) and do CNAME uncloaking, the thing that makes uBO better on Firefox than Chromium.
I'd use FireFox in iOS if I had my extensions and containers available. Sadly FireFox isn't even able to make proper use of the system wide ad blocking method iOS offers (probably due to iOS). I found DDG browser to block stuff a lot better (and I like the UI more).
But FireFox on Android was perfect, at least it was until the latest UI update when suddenly they lost the notion of favorites (or, they were now hidden under "new tab" instead of available on touching the address bar) and you needed to open a new tab for just about anything. I'd still prefer it over Safari or Chrome though.
But FireFox on Android was perfect, at least it was until the latest UI update when suddenly they lost the notion of favorites (or, they were now hidden under "new tab" instead of available on touching the address bar) and you needed to open a new tab for just about anything. I'd still prefer it over Safari or Chrome though.
I paid Adguard and enable the DNS option, so basically I can pretty much use any browser that it will block my ads.
Android user (and dev) and I exclusively use Firefox. That also goes for my Linux and Mac desk-/laptops.
I actually do not enjoy using Chrome on my Android compared to the feel of the new Firefo client.
I actually do not enjoy using Chrome on my Android compared to the feel of the new Firefo client.
Personally I didn't really like the latest changes in the Firefox mobile UI, especially with how it's managing tabs, but I'm sticking with it. I have also to recognize that with recent updates, it has stopped crashing (or at least the frequency is way reduced).
The "jump back in" feature and the "new tab" button not actually opening a new tab until you tell it where to go are what annoys me the most right now. I wish I could go back to the old, saner behavior, which was in Fenix (the "redesign") for a while.
Settings → Tabs → Tab View := List
> they did not have a monopoly on a platform to capitalize on unlike the other players
Considering how poorly pretty much every vendor who wasn't named "Apple" was fumbling around trying to layer negative value added customizations on top of Android in the early days (and continued doing so for years), there was a ripe opportunity to ship a "Mozilla mobile" consisting of a stock Android device + Firefox. Of course, the powers that be predictably blew it.
Considering how poorly pretty much every vendor who wasn't named "Apple" was fumbling around trying to layer negative value added customizations on top of Android in the early days (and continued doing so for years), there was a ripe opportunity to ship a "Mozilla mobile" consisting of a stock Android device + Firefox. Of course, the powers that be predictably blew it.
I use Firefox on Android, it works pretty good. Having dark reader and uBlock Origin on mobile is a big plus. But I do hate the lack of configuration options, pull-to-refresh, and their need to 'approve' extensions and in particular not allowing any kind of sideloading of extensions. For this reason I can't use some of the extensions I like (because they won't allow them in the firefox store either). This is in particular one that bypasses paywalls. I assume the google deal has a lot to do with that.
I wish they would just charge for Firefox sync. The users that are left mostly use it for privacy reasons and they know that privacy costs money.
Safari is not an option for me, I use all platforms but I want the same browser on every platform which means no safari :)
I wish they would just charge for Firefox sync. The users that are left mostly use it for privacy reasons and they know that privacy costs money.
Safari is not an option for me, I use all platforms but I want the same browser on every platform which means no safari :)
On FF nightly you can install any addon.
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/find-and-install-add-on...
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/find-and-install-add-on...
Oh ok, I didn't know. I don't like using the nightly version but I'll give it a try.
Recent Nightly releases have pull-to-refresh, and you can jump through hoops to install all extensions on the mozilla site (not sure about side-loading).
I believe they've actually implemented pull-to-refresh now.
I read about that but it hasn't made it into the production version :(
Hmm... so it hasn't. I would swear I've used it, but it's not working for me if I test it now. I'm mainly on ios now, so maybe that's what confused me.
Firefox would fit neatly in the corporate world in my opinion. You can have a centrally administered configuration file and Firefox is indeed able to just use certificated from your OS. It is just a small toggle. Still, a bit of effort and maybe advertising would do wonders, because there are companies critical of Chrome that think data protection is worth more than personal advertising. I think Edge is trying to fit in here.
Sure, Edge can be configured by domain policies and that is easy too. For example disallowing https exceptions is a popular recent policy (that gets reverted pretty quickly).
Sure, Edge can be configured by domain policies and that is easy too. For example disallowing https exceptions is a popular recent policy (that gets reverted pretty quickly).
It would be easier for companies (who aren't anti Google) to administer Chrome policy via their existing Google/Gmail accounts and Google Workspace. Profiles, sync, extensions, etc. can all be centrally administered. And also deployed to Chromebooks for certain users. All without having to manage the overhead of a minority browser with < 5% marketshare. The "I can't get this web app to work in Firefox, how do I install Chrome?" support calls probably outweigh any ideological preference for a libre browser.
Especially for any web shop... Firefox is even less relevant than Microsoft now and forcing it as a primary internal browser is a great way to alienate your company from end user experiences.
Especially for any web shop... Firefox is even less relevant than Microsoft now and forcing it as a primary internal browser is a great way to alienate your company from end user experiences.
I couldn't name you a single webapp that requires Chrome and it wouldn't fit our quality p expectations and would get booted. Apps that require a certain browser will cause problems in the future or force Chrome to become IE. Can you centrally administrate Google accounts? Because employees certainly aren't allowed to use their privat ones.
> Apps that require a certain browser will cause problems in the future or force Chrome to become IE.
It already has, sadly.
> Can you centrally administrate Google accounts? Because employees certainly aren't allowed to use their privat ones.
Yes, definitely. For non Microsoft shops, Google is a very common option (eg academia).
It already has, sadly.
> Can you centrally administrate Google accounts? Because employees certainly aren't allowed to use their privat ones.
Yes, definitely. For non Microsoft shops, Google is a very common option (eg academia).
Small business/government sites in the US sadly are very guilty of breaking. Esp. for payments, which makes me feel like I'm back in the late 90's with form submissions...
I use chrome for important stuff for that reason.
I use chrome for important stuff for that reason.
WhatsApp Web was Chrome only for quite some time.
From personal experience I know that Teams definitely has some Firefox-only bugs.
From personal experience I know that Teams definitely has some Firefox-only bugs.
What large companies use GMail like that?
Outside of corps ideologically opposed to using Office, like IBM and Oracle, I've almost never seen anybody that didn't run on Outlook. At least since Notes became abandonware anyway.
Outside of corps ideologically opposed to using Office, like IBM and Oracle, I've almost never seen anybody that didn't run on Outlook. At least since Notes became abandonware anyway.
People still use Microsoft? My experience is largely in small medium biz and academia, both of which use a lot of Google. I haven't seen a Microsoft shop in decades. But that's just my own limited spheres of work.
(edit: to be clear, wasn't trying to be snarky. Genuinely surprised. Thought Microsoft intranets were a thing of legacy dinosaur companies, didn't know that modern enterprises still did that. But I don't work in enterprise, only in small biz, where nobody can afford dedicated sys admins and everything is in the cloud. From what I hear though, the UX of Outlook these days is better than Gmail and gcal (which isn't saying much, I know). Might be worth trying again someday...)
(edit: to be clear, wasn't trying to be snarky. Genuinely surprised. Thought Microsoft intranets were a thing of legacy dinosaur companies, didn't know that modern enterprises still did that. But I don't work in enterprise, only in small biz, where nobody can afford dedicated sys admins and everything is in the cloud. From what I hear though, the UX of Outlook these days is better than Gmail and gcal (which isn't saying much, I know). Might be worth trying again someday...)
It depends heavily on the industry, but in my experience the vast majority of the business world runs on Microsoft products. For a lot of businesses (think more accountants or law firms than devs), Outlook, Excel and Word are must-haves. That means Windows is a must-have. That means if you don't have the supporting infrastructure (Azure or Active Directory) then administration becomes a nightmare, so those are a must-have. And at that point, since everything else is Microsoft, Teams gets used for comms and OneDrive gets used for filesharing.
That makes sense.
In the small dev world it's kinda the opposite. Linuxy servers beget Mac dev machines, so AD is mostly out, leaving Apple enterprise stuff (shitty) or Google (OK, but nowhere near as powerful as Microsoft).
GDocs becomes the lowest common denominator and many people don't have Word anymore. Data is either cloud native (json, csv) or else imported into Gsheets.
I suspect some of this is due to the modern educational pipeline too, with gsuite (or Google Workspace, or whatever it's called these days) producing a generation of young workers who grew up on that stuff. It's caused quite a generation gap at my current workplace, where the older workers use Microsoft and the younger ones use Google and stuff keeps getting converted back and forth. And once in a while someone sends a PDF and both sides go nooooo...
In the small dev world it's kinda the opposite. Linuxy servers beget Mac dev machines, so AD is mostly out, leaving Apple enterprise stuff (shitty) or Google (OK, but nowhere near as powerful as Microsoft).
GDocs becomes the lowest common denominator and many people don't have Word anymore. Data is either cloud native (json, csv) or else imported into Gsheets.
I suspect some of this is due to the modern educational pipeline too, with gsuite (or Google Workspace, or whatever it's called these days) producing a generation of young workers who grew up on that stuff. It's caused quite a generation gap at my current workplace, where the older workers use Microsoft and the younger ones use Google and stuff keeps getting converted back and forth. And once in a while someone sends a PDF and both sides go nooooo...
I know several security professionals who do incident response and therefore see a lot of IT setup across multiple domains since ransomwares are endemic nowadays, and according to them 99% of the shops they intervene run Office or Outlook(365) in some capacity.
Probably a self-selecting sample?
Also, I'd be willing to believe your average Google Workspace, preconfigured by Google, is more secure out of the box than your average Microsoft LAN administered by somebody who once took a certification course twenty years ago.
But when something breaks on self-hosted Microsoft stuff, at least you can hire someone to fix it. When something breaks on Google Workspace, hey, it's a free vacation day for the whole staff!
Also, I'd be willing to believe your average Google Workspace, preconfigured by Google, is more secure out of the box than your average Microsoft LAN administered by somebody who once took a certification course twenty years ago.
But when something breaks on self-hosted Microsoft stuff, at least you can hire someone to fix it. When something breaks on Google Workspace, hey, it's a free vacation day for the whole staff!
Could you name any major websites/apps that break in Firefox but not in Chrome?
Not, not any big ones, but I've seen a lot of Firefox specific bugs for smaller sites in the last 2 or 3 years. I've had to debug Firefox issues for my coworkers more than anything else. Sometimes Safari breaks too but that's important because of iOS. Firefox is only used by the ideologues and we don't bother officially supporting it anymore...
I found Amazon unstable on FF for a while a few years ago, it would randomly go off and spin the CPU or eat a pile of RAM, sometimes recovering and sometimes needing to be killed. It was one of the things that pushed me towards using Chrome more. Chrome has since started to have a few issues (occasionally dying and not remembering a chunk of my open tabs being the big recent one) so I'm starting to move back the other way ATM.
M$ teams web doesn't work in Firefox. I was forced to install Chromium under Kubuntu just to use teams at work, as I avoid to install the crappy full teams application like the plague, given it is proprietary, resource heavy and tries to auto-launch whenever it can.
> crappy full teams application like the plague, given it is proprietary, resource heavy and tries to auto-launch whenever it can.
Sounds like they ported over all the best features from Skype! ;)
Sounds like they ported over all the best features from Skype! ;)
> Firefox would fit neatly in the corporate world in my opinion.
Lack of corp support is one of the things that harmed FF from what I saw. Until a few years ago it was not as easy to control FF via group policy¹ as it was Chrome, so FF didn't get a look in. Telling infrastructure managers “but you can do X instead and it is just as easy or easier” would fall on deaf ears because while as convenient in isolation it is still something different instead of integrating with what they did for everything else they permitted on their user machine builds.
¹ This has changed since, but too late.
Lack of corp support is one of the things that harmed FF from what I saw. Until a few years ago it was not as easy to control FF via group policy¹ as it was Chrome, so FF didn't get a look in. Telling infrastructure managers “but you can do X instead and it is just as easy or easier” would fall on deaf ears because while as convenient in isolation it is still something different instead of integrating with what they did for everything else they permitted on their user machine builds.
¹ This has changed since, but too late.
I recently switched back to Firefox after using Chrome and Edge as my main browsers for the past couple of years. So far:
* Performance feels better. Both in terms of being more lean in everyday use, and in not having random issues where CPU/Memory spikes for seemingly no reason.
* I'm sure there are websites that don't work with Firefox, but I haven't found any yet.
* I don't like that tabs in the tab bar are roundrects instead of "connecting" to the content, but it's no big deal I guess.
* Other than that I've basically not noticed that I'm using a different browser, which I mean in the best way possible.
I'm going to continue using it for as long as possible, because while I think Mozilla has made some bad decisions in the past I strongly believe in their mission overall.
* Performance feels better. Both in terms of being more lean in everyday use, and in not having random issues where CPU/Memory spikes for seemingly no reason.
* I'm sure there are websites that don't work with Firefox, but I haven't found any yet.
* I don't like that tabs in the tab bar are roundrects instead of "connecting" to the content, but it's no big deal I guess.
* Other than that I've basically not noticed that I'm using a different browser, which I mean in the best way possible.
I'm going to continue using it for as long as possible, because while I think Mozilla has made some bad decisions in the past I strongly believe in their mission overall.
I've been outta the loop on the whole Firefox bad, Firefox declining and what decisions they made. I've used Firefox for the past many years after switching from Chrome. I'm not a huge privacy encrypt the world type person. I don't even use Duck Duck Go...but it makes the most sense to me that the app I use the most should not be tied to Google.
There is a webapp I use that has a chat feature and causes high CPU consumption on Firefox. It's the only app I know. I'll switch to Chrome if I use it.
There is a webapp I use that has a chat feature and causes high CPU consumption on Firefox. It's the only app I know. I'll switch to Chrome if I use it.
Web standards in 2001: Everything will be interoperable because we'll all use XML, it'll allow easy embedding of various formats, you'll only need an XML parser and you'll be able to read any document, and with XSL/XPath getting the information you want will be easy.
Web standards in 2021: Don't need interoperability if everyone is using Chrome, and thanks to the living standard if you want to compete you'll not only need to implement a spec that is changing daily, but you'll also need to implement all the bugs in Chrome as they'll eventually become part of the spec, and any unrelated specs that disagree with Chrome will end up having to be changed too!
Switching to FF is good, but the reality is that nothing can compete with the dominant players in this morass, so we'll never see new entrants. The Chrome team will determine the direction almost all software moves in probably for the next 2-3 decades at least barring some sort of legislative action by the worlds governments
Web standards in 2021: Don't need interoperability if everyone is using Chrome, and thanks to the living standard if you want to compete you'll not only need to implement a spec that is changing daily, but you'll also need to implement all the bugs in Chrome as they'll eventually become part of the spec, and any unrelated specs that disagree with Chrome will end up having to be changed too!
Switching to FF is good, but the reality is that nothing can compete with the dominant players in this morass, so we'll never see new entrants. The Chrome team will determine the direction almost all software moves in probably for the next 2-3 decades at least barring some sort of legislative action by the worlds governments
Just as a data-point, I forced myself to use Firefox on Mobile and Desktop in my personal life, and Chrome at work.
* Firefox is fine, the sync works well, I don't see any of the drama around management or new-tab or search being an issue, and I get a pile of benefits like sandboxing and better ad-control.
* Chrome is faster, but it also has literal billions of investment.
There really isn't that much drama about this? Sure I wish Firefox had more market share, but it also runs on a fraction of Chrome's budget, so it's never going to be as good, and I can't judge people for not caring about helping Google.
* Firefox is fine, the sync works well, I don't see any of the drama around management or new-tab or search being an issue, and I get a pile of benefits like sandboxing and better ad-control.
* Chrome is faster, but it also has literal billions of investment.
There really isn't that much drama about this? Sure I wish Firefox had more market share, but it also runs on a fraction of Chrome's budget, so it's never going to be as good, and I can't judge people for not caring about helping Google.
Among the points missing under the "I can attribute this decline to various factors" section is IMO that Moz/FF have managed to alienate their original user base/plugin developers to become "more like Chrome". Maybe that's an unfair thing to say, but I guess it doesn't matter anymore anyway.
Which is hilarious since extensions are clearly something Chrome barely cares about at all as is obvious from the Chrome extension page where one can’t even search for extensions to install.
It's not unfair to say, and the more they tried to do it the more they lost any differentiating feature they had to normal users and just became "slow Chrome".
Firefox might be the alternative but Mozilla is no longer a good steward of it.
I believe it was very visible, several times, that the execs are only concerned with taking home huge bonuses (there were several submissions here on HN about their balance sheets and budget). At the same time, amazing and strong research teams have been let go. And then Mozilla started doing a very classic corporation things like trying to diversify income while half-arsing almost every such effort (although I do think their VPN offering is a pleasant exception of this rule); an example coming to mind is of course Persona but it's not the only one. To this day I haven't forgiven them for putting Pocket in a right-click menu. It didn't belong there then, it doesn't belong there still to this day. Or has HN forgotten to awful privacy policy that Pocket had at the time? Apparently it has.
The way I see it, only Safari and Chrome(-ium) will remain in the next few years. Firefox is doomed when it's managed by Mozilla. And Mozilla hasn't been what they used to be, for a long time now.
I believe it was very visible, several times, that the execs are only concerned with taking home huge bonuses (there were several submissions here on HN about their balance sheets and budget). At the same time, amazing and strong research teams have been let go. And then Mozilla started doing a very classic corporation things like trying to diversify income while half-arsing almost every such effort (although I do think their VPN offering is a pleasant exception of this rule); an example coming to mind is of course Persona but it's not the only one. To this day I haven't forgiven them for putting Pocket in a right-click menu. It didn't belong there then, it doesn't belong there still to this day. Or has HN forgotten to awful privacy policy that Pocket had at the time? Apparently it has.
The way I see it, only Safari and Chrome(-ium) will remain in the next few years. Firefox is doomed when it's managed by Mozilla. And Mozilla hasn't been what they used to be, for a long time now.
I've been using Firefox exclusively on desktop and mobile for a few years now, and it is quite good. Lighter that Chrome (good because I'm a bit of a cheapskate when it comes to hardware), everything works, and it is quick. And they finally got their Linux support up to par (in the late 00s early 10s, Firefox for Linux was a forgotten stepchild, missing most of the newer features and integration present in the other platforms).
The problem is that the web has gotten way too complicated. We're approaching the point where only trillion dollar companies are producing rendering engines. No open source project will ever likely be able to catch up and compete if Firefox can't.
It's time to consider stopping to try and save the standard web, and start looking at alternatives like Gemini for a non-corporate controlled alternative.
It's time to consider stopping to try and save the standard web, and start looking at alternatives like Gemini for a non-corporate controlled alternative.
I've held the same view as the author for some time now. The popularity of "ungoogled-chromium" in some corners of the internet has always struck me as trading the data collection aspect of chrome for furthering the chromium hegemony even further. Same goes for Vivaldi and Brave.
To me that is not good. Firefox just suck.
I insisted on Firefox for a while because Google hegemony but in the end I switched to brave.
1. Firefox often loses settings
2. Also it is really, really bad at saving your session. After losing important tabs I ignited that but...
3. After painstakingly preparing a bunch of docked tabs, it lost these too.
4. Frequent interface changes, often for the worse (to be honest my favourite interface was firefox 2.0)
5. It often breaks extensions too, this is felt heavily on Thunderbird where I have to often teach my family all over again how to do what they want or have to code more extensions myself because some critical extension does not work anymore.
I insisted on Firefox for a while because Google hegemony but in the end I switched to brave.
1. Firefox often loses settings
2. Also it is really, really bad at saving your session. After losing important tabs I ignited that but...
3. After painstakingly preparing a bunch of docked tabs, it lost these too.
4. Frequent interface changes, often for the worse (to be honest my favourite interface was firefox 2.0)
5. It often breaks extensions too, this is felt heavily on Thunderbird where I have to often teach my family all over again how to do what they want or have to code more extensions myself because some critical extension does not work anymore.
Mind if I ask when you've last used Firefox?
I've had these problems before (on rare occasions) but ever since Firefox did its Quantum leap, these issues were pretty much resolved.
I've had these problems before (on rare occasions) but ever since Firefox did its Quantum leap, these issues were pretty much resolved.
I switched to Brave 2 weeks ago, that was when Firefox deleted my pinned tabs.
Did it also delete your containers by chance? That is, if you have set any up.
This drives me up the wall. At certain, irregular intervals Firefox loses my configured multi-account containers - except for those provided by an extension, e.g. Amazon Container.
This drives me up the wall. At certain, irregular intervals Firefox loses my configured multi-account containers - except for those provided by an extension, e.g. Amazon Container.
In my experience, such arguments don't move the needle on adoption. "Hegemony" of a specific useful product is a concern to such a small number of people that even getting 100% of those people who are concerned or could be made to be concerned to use an alternative will not make a dent in the "hegemony."
The only thing that I have seen work is shipping a better, cheaper, and more useful product and focusing marketing on why a user would prefer to use it on its own merits. Everything else is preaching to the converted.
The only thing that I have seen work is shipping a better, cheaper, and more useful product and focusing marketing on why a user would prefer to use it on its own merits. Everything else is preaching to the converted.
That's all true. At the same time people on HN of all places still seriously advertise Chrome clones as if they were a complete alternatives for a Google monopoly. I've lost hope and count the days until either Gecko/Quantum will go down or biggest websites will stop supporting it. I'm already encountering at least one not working website every few months, one of them was my bank portal (BNP subsidiary, not some out of the woods small bank).
I've started using it as my main browser both in daily use and dev.
In the past I had trouble with client projects or dev tools only working in chrome, but I decided that the only way things get freer is to make myself fix those pain points when I come across them.
In the past I had trouble with client projects or dev tools only working in chrome, but I decided that the only way things get freer is to make myself fix those pain points when I come across them.
I started using Firefox again on my computers and mobile with the hype around Manifest v3 inevitably restricting future adblocking.
I see friends switching to Brave, but I dislike how they seem to be focusing their RnD into BAT/crypto features. Firefox also has the advantage of having addons on mobile.
It's a pipe dream, but I could see Google reverting to the don't be evil days with the rise of these Chromium forks and other ad agencies. Somehow change their business model away from ads, promote adblocking, and support addons on mobile. Checkmate Brave/Vivaldi/Edge/etc. Other than niche features or those apposed to Google will look elsewhere.
I see friends switching to Brave, but I dislike how they seem to be focusing their RnD into BAT/crypto features. Firefox also has the advantage of having addons on mobile.
It's a pipe dream, but I could see Google reverting to the don't be evil days with the rise of these Chromium forks and other ad agencies. Somehow change their business model away from ads, promote adblocking, and support addons on mobile. Checkmate Brave/Vivaldi/Edge/etc. Other than niche features or those apposed to Google will look elsewhere.
If Brave lets me down, I'll revisit Firefox, but at the moment Brave is the most compelling browser in the space.
Brave is also the closest to the "Let me pay to see no ads" model.
Google could mirror Youtube Premium, and give us ad free 'Chrome Premium' for $x.xx per month.
Brave is also the closest to the "Let me pay to see no ads" model.
Google could mirror Youtube Premium, and give us ad free 'Chrome Premium' for $x.xx per month.
I use Firefox and am pretty happy with. It seems a lot of people are complaining/obsessing about its market share or insisting that chrome is the way to go. All not that relevant. It's fine. It has more than enough market share that most companies can't afford to ignore it. That's all that matters. As long as that's the case you can choose to use it or not. The point is that you still have a choice.
Also market share varies by region. Chrome and Safari are a bit over represented in the US and under represented in e.g. Germany.
And if people want to use edge, chromium, brave, or get their Chrome experience straight from Google, also fine. IMHO you are dependent on Google either way because it's mostly them doing the heavy lifting on the internals and setting the agenda/roadmap for that. I hear good things about Safari too. Though, I mostly use it to figure out why stuff that works in Firefox and Chrome doesn't work there. That seems to be a recurring annoyance I have to deal with.
From my point of view, having three browser engines (Chrome, Safari, and Firefox) is better than just having Chrome and Safari. At worst, it keeps the other two a bit more honest. Especially Google seems to need to have their arm twisted a lot more to actually do the right things.
If people don't like their browsers, maybe go and fix them? If you can't, pick the one that best caters to your need and be grateful for what you get for free.
Also market share varies by region. Chrome and Safari are a bit over represented in the US and under represented in e.g. Germany.
And if people want to use edge, chromium, brave, or get their Chrome experience straight from Google, also fine. IMHO you are dependent on Google either way because it's mostly them doing the heavy lifting on the internals and setting the agenda/roadmap for that. I hear good things about Safari too. Though, I mostly use it to figure out why stuff that works in Firefox and Chrome doesn't work there. That seems to be a recurring annoyance I have to deal with.
From my point of view, having three browser engines (Chrome, Safari, and Firefox) is better than just having Chrome and Safari. At worst, it keeps the other two a bit more honest. Especially Google seems to need to have their arm twisted a lot more to actually do the right things.
If people don't like their browsers, maybe go and fix them? If you can't, pick the one that best caters to your need and be grateful for what you get for free.
Firefox isn't an acceptable alternative, over the past few years it's completely obvious the priorities of the organization in control of it are not to build a great browser and to de-homogenize the web tech stack.
Best thing that could ever happen for the browser problem is for Mozilla to go under and FF be taken over by the community who actually care about the problem that FF is the solution for, not just some overpaid executives who think selling a VPN is a good use of their time between private jet flights.
Best thing that could ever happen for the browser problem is for Mozilla to go under and FF be taken over by the community who actually care about the problem that FF is the solution for, not just some overpaid executives who think selling a VPN is a good use of their time between private jet flights.
I use Firefox as my daily driver and I couldn't disagree more. But it's hard to reply adequately because you don't actually tell us what your problems with it is. In what ways is Firefox not an acceptable alternative?
The parent comment seems to be referring to some of the things Mozilla has been doing lately. I'll focus only on the browser.
I think it's fair to say that the experience with Firefox will depend a lot on the platform and how much its imperfections affect you.
For example, I use macOS. Until last year Firefox would cut my laptop's battery life in half compared to a Chromium browser. That alone would make it a bad browser for me. Some sites that rely a lot on JS are often noticeably slower than Safari or Chromium. Then you have Firefox's UI. One thing that annoys me... CTRL/CMD+Click means opening on a new tab, right? On Firefox, by default, links on pages works like that, but links on the bookmarks bar don't! Talking of the bookmarks bar, after many UI updates, it no longer has the correct margins and doesn't fit with the rest of the UI, not to mention that favicons are a pain in the rear to update. And then there are the little things... Firefox moved to a "settings in a tab" for some things, but stuff like downloads and the bookmarks manager still open on windows with sizes that don't fit the OS or even Firefox's design. This old code was also stopping context menus and other parts of the browser from using the OS dark theme until recently.
Is Firefox terrible? No, but it's a mix of old and new code, UIs, etc, and the macOS version has been neglected for years. It's usable. Firefox's problem on this platform is that Safari and Chromium are so much better platform. Even with the recent improvements, Firefox is still behind in many areas.
I use Firefox daily, but only as a secondary browser. I've tried... but I get annoyed after a week or two and end up going back to a Chromium-based browser.
I think it's fair to say that the experience with Firefox will depend a lot on the platform and how much its imperfections affect you.
For example, I use macOS. Until last year Firefox would cut my laptop's battery life in half compared to a Chromium browser. That alone would make it a bad browser for me. Some sites that rely a lot on JS are often noticeably slower than Safari or Chromium. Then you have Firefox's UI. One thing that annoys me... CTRL/CMD+Click means opening on a new tab, right? On Firefox, by default, links on pages works like that, but links on the bookmarks bar don't! Talking of the bookmarks bar, after many UI updates, it no longer has the correct margins and doesn't fit with the rest of the UI, not to mention that favicons are a pain in the rear to update. And then there are the little things... Firefox moved to a "settings in a tab" for some things, but stuff like downloads and the bookmarks manager still open on windows with sizes that don't fit the OS or even Firefox's design. This old code was also stopping context menus and other parts of the browser from using the OS dark theme until recently.
Is Firefox terrible? No, but it's a mix of old and new code, UIs, etc, and the macOS version has been neglected for years. It's usable. Firefox's problem on this platform is that Safari and Chromium are so much better platform. Even with the recent improvements, Firefox is still behind in many areas.
I use Firefox daily, but only as a secondary browser. I've tried... but I get annoyed after a week or two and end up going back to a Chromium-based browser.
My problem is with the organization, their mismanagement has already cost it a huge amount of usage % and it's only going to get worse because it isn't their priority.
An alternative isn't an alternative if no one uses it therefore no one tests or supports it.
I want Firefox, without Mozilla.
An alternative isn't an alternative if no one uses it therefore no one tests or supports it.
I want Firefox, without Mozilla.
18ish years ago I was using Firefox as my primary browser and then testing in IE. Now I still run Firefox and instead test in Chrome. Rinse, repeat. Although I'll admit testing and fixing for Chrome is quite easier than it was dealing with IE and it's various versions.
Firefox is a terrific browser. It is the only browser I use for both web development and normal browsing. The only time I use Chrome is when I come across a site that was built to only work on Chrome. Fortunately, those are very rare.
A discussion of WebKit and its features would make this far less clickbait-y: https://webkit.org/status
Noting, however, that I use Firefox and Thunderbird as my daily-driver applications, and Edge + Safari when I must.
Noting, however, that I use Firefox and Thunderbird as my daily-driver applications, and Edge + Safari when I must.
Anyone who has ever actually worked on OSS or just hangs out in ANY support channel/forum for open source will see that users are endlessly demanding, need lots of support, but will never, ever pay for anything if a free alternative exists.
Linus and the “gamers” will compare and try distros, point out tiny flaws, judge developer team strength but the one thing they will almost never, ever do is _pay money_. Even the nicest folks try their best, ask for support politely but they typically will not or cannot pay, and cannot contribute to a project beyond a solid bug report in most cases.
Linux OSS fanboys also are allergic to paying for software. God forbid someone charges a dollar for a useful application on a linux distro. Elementary OS is trying to inch towards payment with a “pay what you want” model because developers and teams actually charging for their labor would piss off 99% of the users. They may talk about the virtues of open source but what 95% of (non-technical) users love about open source is the fact that its FREE.
Kovid Goyal, creator of Calibre & Kitty gets ~$3000/month on Patreon for software used by millions that he’s built and supported for a decade now. How much does Amazon make on the Kindle instead? Tens or hundreds of millions? This isn’t a case of an evil corporate company not paying for OSS either, its just people who like to read.
We could end the Chrome hegemony tomorrow if Firefox was realistically able to charge for a browser, hire folks and not get completely dropped by their userbase. I hang out in the Firefox chats and fixed a bug once. Like most OSS, “community driven” basically means ~1000 people are actually willing and able to contribute to the project in some capacity. The rest is freeloaders, even if they happen to have good intentions. Google figured out an indirect way to get compensated for what they build because they too know users will not pay for a browser, or a search engine, or maps, or cloud storage, or photos, or news or everything else Google just gives us for free. As developers we could help solve this problem too - simply work for Mozilla negotiate a lower salary if you feel so strongly.
Linus and the “gamers” will compare and try distros, point out tiny flaws, judge developer team strength but the one thing they will almost never, ever do is _pay money_. Even the nicest folks try their best, ask for support politely but they typically will not or cannot pay, and cannot contribute to a project beyond a solid bug report in most cases.
Linux OSS fanboys also are allergic to paying for software. God forbid someone charges a dollar for a useful application on a linux distro. Elementary OS is trying to inch towards payment with a “pay what you want” model because developers and teams actually charging for their labor would piss off 99% of the users. They may talk about the virtues of open source but what 95% of (non-technical) users love about open source is the fact that its FREE.
Kovid Goyal, creator of Calibre & Kitty gets ~$3000/month on Patreon for software used by millions that he’s built and supported for a decade now. How much does Amazon make on the Kindle instead? Tens or hundreds of millions? This isn’t a case of an evil corporate company not paying for OSS either, its just people who like to read.
We could end the Chrome hegemony tomorrow if Firefox was realistically able to charge for a browser, hire folks and not get completely dropped by their userbase. I hang out in the Firefox chats and fixed a bug once. Like most OSS, “community driven” basically means ~1000 people are actually willing and able to contribute to the project in some capacity. The rest is freeloaders, even if they happen to have good intentions. Google figured out an indirect way to get compensated for what they build because they too know users will not pay for a browser, or a search engine, or maps, or cloud storage, or photos, or news or everything else Google just gives us for free. As developers we could help solve this problem too - simply work for Mozilla negotiate a lower salary if you feel so strongly.
Adding money to the equation doesn't fix problems. It's another situation of "the mythical man-month" where you can hire as many people as you want, but it doesn't make the problem go away faster. Take MacOS for example: it's an operating system that has thousands of people working on it, backed with decades of R&D as well as hundreds of billions of dollars. That doesn't make it any easier for Apple to support 32-bit software, add Vulkan drivers to their system or make a decent first-party software distribution system that doesn't scalp the developers selling their software. Every organization has their own goals and ulterior motives, if Firefox got 100 million dollars tomorrow they'd probably use it to add a second "Pocket" advertisement on your taskbar and lock the rest away in a vault somewhere.
Open source software walks a hard line on freedom. Nothing is stopping you from charging a dollar for your Linux software, but nobody will pay for it unless you're offering some kind of actual utility. Similarly, if Google started charging a dollar for their browser, I imagine there would be a lot of disgruntled people looking for new browsers.
Money is not the solution here, it's the problem. Hiding away code and restricting access is the opposite of freedom, and while you're welcome to disagree with the principle it doesn't change the fact that there's thousands of open source projects floating around, many of them best-in-class. Do you think Hacker News would exist if every CSS component charged a dollar so you could support the developers, or every coreutil you used had a 50-cent tax after every invocation?
Open source software walks a hard line on freedom. Nothing is stopping you from charging a dollar for your Linux software, but nobody will pay for it unless you're offering some kind of actual utility. Similarly, if Google started charging a dollar for their browser, I imagine there would be a lot of disgruntled people looking for new browsers.
Money is not the solution here, it's the problem. Hiding away code and restricting access is the opposite of freedom, and while you're welcome to disagree with the principle it doesn't change the fact that there's thousands of open source projects floating around, many of them best-in-class. Do you think Hacker News would exist if every CSS component charged a dollar so you could support the developers, or every coreutil you used had a 50-cent tax after every invocation?
Linux desktop is great now because OSes have stagnated and its easier to catch up. Mac was as good in 2010, 10 years ago. I do believe that its at least partly because Apple had the money to hire and support teams full of talented people working hard.
I see the same pattern in Firefox. Back when Chrome launched, and for years after, it was miles ahead of firefox and IE.
Anyways, if money is a problem then just work for free lol. Easy solve. Why do you care about Vulkan on Apple anyways? Seems like you were a Mac user.. if i had to guess you used Mac for many years and switched recently, now that Linux desktop has become viable. Why did you not use linux 10 years ago too? The money you paid to Apple only causes problems right? If money is the root of evil you should work for free contributing to the FOSS you believe in and find some other way to pay the rent. But I guess money is the root of evil only when you're paying, not when you're getting paid.
I see the same pattern in Firefox. Back when Chrome launched, and for years after, it was miles ahead of firefox and IE.
Anyways, if money is a problem then just work for free lol. Easy solve. Why do you care about Vulkan on Apple anyways? Seems like you were a Mac user.. if i had to guess you used Mac for many years and switched recently, now that Linux desktop has become viable. Why did you not use linux 10 years ago too? The money you paid to Apple only causes problems right? If money is the root of evil you should work for free contributing to the FOSS you believe in and find some other way to pay the rent. But I guess money is the root of evil only when you're paying, not when you're getting paid.
> Linux desktop is great now because OSes have stagnated and its easier to catch up.
The Linux desktop was fine, arguably since GTK2 was popularized. The software selection was a little sparse, but I genuinely liked it more than the Aqua UI at the time. (as well as... whatever Windows 7 was doing. Aero?)
> Mac was as good in 2010, 10 years ago. I do believe that its at least partly because Apple had the money to hire and support excellent teams full of brilliant people.
Maybe so, but I seldom really saw it pay off. Things definitely looked prettier on MacOS, but I was often frustrated by things that should "just work" like Time Machine and Safari, so I really spent the majority of my time on MacOS looking for alternatives to Apple's own software. Whatever lead they had in 2010 has been greatly diminished though, especially since Big Sur's release. I just can't even fathom using their new UI...
> Anyways, if money is a problem then just work for free lol.
I suppose I do, if you count open source contributions.
>Why do you care about Vulkan on Apple anyways?
It's nice. DXVK is very powerful, and not being able to use it on my Macbook kinda makes it a no-go for regular use. You can argue that it "doesn't matter" and try to trivialize my desires as much as you want, but it's Apple's move. My Windows machines had it, my Linux devices have it, Apple is the only one left who doesn't.
> Seems like you were a Mac user.. if i had to guess you used Mac for many years and switched recently, now that Linux desktop has become viable.
I used to use Windows for gaming and my Mac for programming, but once Proton got good enough I figured it was time to retire them both. Windows and MacOS were starting to get too slow to daily-drive, and my Mac wouldn't even run Mojave without idling above 50c. Plus, Apple's software quality has taken a complete nosedive in recent years. Sierra was the first step in a pretty questionable direction, and everything running Catalina and beyond is completely foreign to me. Plus, the little things like package management and process handling started to get increasingly difficult, to the point that it was actively making it harder for me to do my job. Safari's endless popup notifications drove me up the wall while I was happily using Chrome, and having to blow hundreds of gigs just to use little utilities like Xcode finally pushed me over the edge. I couldn't buy a machine with upgradable memory or even accessible storage. Modern Macs are about as repairable as a cellphone, which I find abhorrent.
> Why did you not use linux 10 years ago too?
I did, I've had an x201 for about a decade that's happily served as a media server and a Nextcloud/Syncthing host for quite a while now. On desktop, it was mostly down to a lack of software: there was a period where you couldn't run everything you wanted unless you had both Windows and Mac, but nowadays the holdouts have mostly given up. I've got Slack, VS Code, Discord, Steam, Spotify, and pretty much anything from Windows that I really cared about like Ableton Live. Plus, I can plug in any GPU that I want and expect it to work fairly well on Linux, which is definitely not the case for MacOS. Really not ideal for the times that I'm playing with AI or CUDA acceleration. Running Linux virtualized was a pretty good solution for a while, but with QEMU I can run Windows and MacOS with baremetal performance.
This isn't intended to dunk on MacOS, as much as it might seem like it (and as much as people insist that I do). I still think Mojave is one of the best OSes you can use these days, especially if you're not an enthusiast. My demands outgrew MacOS though, and Apple's demands offended me. Switching to Linux made perfect sense for my workflow, and it went smoother than I expected on the desktop. My overall point is that money is nice, but it won't buy you software freedom. You could have all the money in the world, and Apple wouldn't let you audit their source code or plug in an Nvidia graphics card. Instead of fighting them at every corner, I've given up, and I'm happier than I've ever been.
The Linux desktop was fine, arguably since GTK2 was popularized. The software selection was a little sparse, but I genuinely liked it more than the Aqua UI at the time. (as well as... whatever Windows 7 was doing. Aero?)
> Mac was as good in 2010, 10 years ago. I do believe that its at least partly because Apple had the money to hire and support excellent teams full of brilliant people.
Maybe so, but I seldom really saw it pay off. Things definitely looked prettier on MacOS, but I was often frustrated by things that should "just work" like Time Machine and Safari, so I really spent the majority of my time on MacOS looking for alternatives to Apple's own software. Whatever lead they had in 2010 has been greatly diminished though, especially since Big Sur's release. I just can't even fathom using their new UI...
> Anyways, if money is a problem then just work for free lol.
I suppose I do, if you count open source contributions.
>Why do you care about Vulkan on Apple anyways?
It's nice. DXVK is very powerful, and not being able to use it on my Macbook kinda makes it a no-go for regular use. You can argue that it "doesn't matter" and try to trivialize my desires as much as you want, but it's Apple's move. My Windows machines had it, my Linux devices have it, Apple is the only one left who doesn't.
> Seems like you were a Mac user.. if i had to guess you used Mac for many years and switched recently, now that Linux desktop has become viable.
I used to use Windows for gaming and my Mac for programming, but once Proton got good enough I figured it was time to retire them both. Windows and MacOS were starting to get too slow to daily-drive, and my Mac wouldn't even run Mojave without idling above 50c. Plus, Apple's software quality has taken a complete nosedive in recent years. Sierra was the first step in a pretty questionable direction, and everything running Catalina and beyond is completely foreign to me. Plus, the little things like package management and process handling started to get increasingly difficult, to the point that it was actively making it harder for me to do my job. Safari's endless popup notifications drove me up the wall while I was happily using Chrome, and having to blow hundreds of gigs just to use little utilities like Xcode finally pushed me over the edge. I couldn't buy a machine with upgradable memory or even accessible storage. Modern Macs are about as repairable as a cellphone, which I find abhorrent.
> Why did you not use linux 10 years ago too?
I did, I've had an x201 for about a decade that's happily served as a media server and a Nextcloud/Syncthing host for quite a while now. On desktop, it was mostly down to a lack of software: there was a period where you couldn't run everything you wanted unless you had both Windows and Mac, but nowadays the holdouts have mostly given up. I've got Slack, VS Code, Discord, Steam, Spotify, and pretty much anything from Windows that I really cared about like Ableton Live. Plus, I can plug in any GPU that I want and expect it to work fairly well on Linux, which is definitely not the case for MacOS. Really not ideal for the times that I'm playing with AI or CUDA acceleration. Running Linux virtualized was a pretty good solution for a while, but with QEMU I can run Windows and MacOS with baremetal performance.
This isn't intended to dunk on MacOS, as much as it might seem like it (and as much as people insist that I do). I still think Mojave is one of the best OSes you can use these days, especially if you're not an enthusiast. My demands outgrew MacOS though, and Apple's demands offended me. Switching to Linux made perfect sense for my workflow, and it went smoother than I expected on the desktop. My overall point is that money is nice, but it won't buy you software freedom. You could have all the money in the world, and Apple wouldn't let you audit their source code or plug in an Nvidia graphics card. Instead of fighting them at every corner, I've given up, and I'm happier than I've ever been.
I won't argue against the complaints you have with Mac, i have some of the same and many others do.
I just think there genuinely IS a tension between open source/software freedom and great software. For an example, read about the recent case of Streamlabs. They stole the OBS code and rebranded it a little, copied the webpage down to the layout, but did not disclose any of that. They made tons of money and got acquired by Logitech. The people there successfully used the fact that OBS open sourced everything to steal their work and got rich off it. If Apple open sources their entire OS, why wouldn't the same thing happen? If that did happen, who pays for all the maintenance and new features on Mac? just recently I found a certain Mac OS app that sells pretty well. On decompiling it I found it was just an old open source command line utility, the dev literally threw in the binary and packaged it into an app. This was not disclosed anywhere of course. I've seen many, many examples of this across SaaS and other products - they take some free code, do nothing but repackage it and brand it, keep the profit and give nothing back to the creators.
I would love if MacOS was open source and I could fix any OS/software when i hit a use case it doesn't solve well for me. If there was in theory a way to open source code without letting cheaters use it that would be great. But if piracy is easy then people default to it. No one paid for WinRAR back in the day and if we just let that model continue, 80% of the IT industry today wouldn't exist. Like i just see the entire ecosystem and industry with all the amazing technology we have now compared to the 90s was born partly because we found ways to charge for stuff and cut out freeloaders. No one on HN asks for a lower salary and we get these salaries _because_ these models prevent theft. So closed source is a compromise to a tough problem - im okay with that. I think the huge leaps sometimes take a LOT of money to build - say Apple designing and researching and paying to manufacture touchscreens for a decade before ever selling the first iPhone, or Amazon buying a billion servers to build the cloud, and I don't know if they would exist if they never got paid for the stuff they built.
I just think there genuinely IS a tension between open source/software freedom and great software. For an example, read about the recent case of Streamlabs. They stole the OBS code and rebranded it a little, copied the webpage down to the layout, but did not disclose any of that. They made tons of money and got acquired by Logitech. The people there successfully used the fact that OBS open sourced everything to steal their work and got rich off it. If Apple open sources their entire OS, why wouldn't the same thing happen? If that did happen, who pays for all the maintenance and new features on Mac? just recently I found a certain Mac OS app that sells pretty well. On decompiling it I found it was just an old open source command line utility, the dev literally threw in the binary and packaged it into an app. This was not disclosed anywhere of course. I've seen many, many examples of this across SaaS and other products - they take some free code, do nothing but repackage it and brand it, keep the profit and give nothing back to the creators.
I would love if MacOS was open source and I could fix any OS/software when i hit a use case it doesn't solve well for me. If there was in theory a way to open source code without letting cheaters use it that would be great. But if piracy is easy then people default to it. No one paid for WinRAR back in the day and if we just let that model continue, 80% of the IT industry today wouldn't exist. Like i just see the entire ecosystem and industry with all the amazing technology we have now compared to the 90s was born partly because we found ways to charge for stuff and cut out freeloaders. No one on HN asks for a lower salary and we get these salaries _because_ these models prevent theft. So closed source is a compromise to a tough problem - im okay with that. I think the huge leaps sometimes take a LOT of money to build - say Apple designing and researching and paying to manufacture touchscreens for a decade before ever selling the first iPhone, or Amazon buying a billion servers to build the cloud, and I don't know if they would exist if they never got paid for the stuff they built.
I'm not arguing for Apple to open-source their OS, I just want them to make something that's truly better than Linux/Windows for once. They have an unconscionable amount of money, and they do nearly nothing with it. My original argument was having more money doesn't neccesarily build better software, and MacOS is a prime example of that. A few notes though:
> If that did happen, who pays for all the maintenance and new features on Mac?
This is probably the last thing I'd worry about if MacOS was open source. As it stands today, Apple basically "maintains" the Mach kernel by strapping BSD patches onto the XNU kernel and praying nothing breaks, if the community maintained it we probably wouldn't need to wait months for new iterative versions to come out and fix relatively simple issues.
> I've seen many, many examples of this across SaaS and other products - they take some free code, do nothing but repackage it and brand it, keep the profit and give nothing back to the creators.
And that's fine. That free software is intended to support other people, and it's why there are distinctions between GPL and BSD licensing. When you write open-source software, imagining such a "worst case" scenario is the first things developers do, and they choose their license accordingly. In the Streamlabs example you brought up, the community rightfully called them out for being a ripoff of OBS, and encouraged people to go use the free version instead. Like I said earlier, "money is the problem, not the solution."
> No one paid for WinRAR back in the day and if we just let that model continue, 80% of the awesome software today wouldn't exist.
People didn't pay for WinRAR because
1. It didn't force you to.
2. There were several free alternatives, like 7ZIP.
As you've mentioned earlier, the majority of "awesome software today" is really just free software strapped together with twine and bubblegum. 80% of SaaSes these days are simply frontends to software that could absolutely run locally. Even SaaSes don't see the end-user as an important asset, since the "new hotness" is moving on to B2B sales and bootstrapping directly onto another successful company like a parasite. Whether or not you consider this to be the utopian world of proprietary software is up to you, but I certainly appreciate things better in the FOSS world.
> If that did happen, who pays for all the maintenance and new features on Mac?
This is probably the last thing I'd worry about if MacOS was open source. As it stands today, Apple basically "maintains" the Mach kernel by strapping BSD patches onto the XNU kernel and praying nothing breaks, if the community maintained it we probably wouldn't need to wait months for new iterative versions to come out and fix relatively simple issues.
> I've seen many, many examples of this across SaaS and other products - they take some free code, do nothing but repackage it and brand it, keep the profit and give nothing back to the creators.
And that's fine. That free software is intended to support other people, and it's why there are distinctions between GPL and BSD licensing. When you write open-source software, imagining such a "worst case" scenario is the first things developers do, and they choose their license accordingly. In the Streamlabs example you brought up, the community rightfully called them out for being a ripoff of OBS, and encouraged people to go use the free version instead. Like I said earlier, "money is the problem, not the solution."
> No one paid for WinRAR back in the day and if we just let that model continue, 80% of the awesome software today wouldn't exist.
People didn't pay for WinRAR because
1. It didn't force you to.
2. There were several free alternatives, like 7ZIP.
As you've mentioned earlier, the majority of "awesome software today" is really just free software strapped together with twine and bubblegum. 80% of SaaSes these days are simply frontends to software that could absolutely run locally. Even SaaSes don't see the end-user as an important asset, since the "new hotness" is moving on to B2B sales and bootstrapping directly onto another successful company like a parasite. Whether or not you consider this to be the utopian world of proprietary software is up to you, but I certainly appreciate things better in the FOSS world.
I'm Firefox user, but those arguments are ridiculous for me, it almost sounds like conspiracy theory. You just keep convincing people to use software not because it's better, but because of some blurry ideological reasons.
I keep reading articles like that on tech-related websites and they all miss the point which is: if Chrome-based browsers one day manage to gain 100% market share, what will it change if it is open source? What stops anyone from just forking that browser if Google makes anything wrong with it? And what did Google do with browsers so far, that we hate it?
I keep reading articles like that on tech-related websites and they all miss the point which is: if Chrome-based browsers one day manage to gain 100% market share, what will it change if it is open source? What stops anyone from just forking that browser if Google makes anything wrong with it? And what did Google do with browsers so far, that we hate it?
Firefox needs to go with a one locked-down process per tab model. There is no excuse these days for a single tab crash to kill off substantial portions of the browser. Moreover, there is no excuse for a tab compromise to allow access to other tabs' memory.
I use Chromium because it has both a safer and more reliable design and implementation. If web browsers were OS's, Firefox would be Mac OS 9. If Mozilla wants to understand why they're losing market share, they should try and understand why no one builds OS's like that anymore.
I use Chromium because it has both a safer and more reliable design and implementation. If web browsers were OS's, Firefox would be Mac OS 9. If Mozilla wants to understand why they're losing market share, they should try and understand why no one builds OS's like that anymore.
That's in the latest version.
It's an inefficient use of computing resources, but necessary for security, mostly because of Spectre.
It's an inefficient use of computing resources, but necessary for security, mostly because of Spectre.
I'm still not over the chicklet tabs.
I hope Mozilla can find a more coherent use of their energy. I'm still rooting and using firefox but it's more of an ethical effort than the obvious pleasure it used to be.
Good luck
I hope Mozilla can find a more coherent use of their energy. I'm still rooting and using firefox but it's more of an ethical effort than the obvious pleasure it used to be.
Good luck
I use Firefox rather than Chrome just to support an alternative to a monoculture. When I was on Mac, I enjoyed using Safari. I'm not a power user--I just use tabs and bookmarks, and don't use sync. Mozilla makes Firefox hard to justify since it keeps adding features I don't really care about (e.g. Pocket). I just want a simple browser that is lightweight.
When I've tried out alternatives, I run into sites that don't work correctly. I don't particularly like Firefox, but it "just works" most of the time.
When I've tried out alternatives, I run into sites that don't work correctly. I don't particularly like Firefox, but it "just works" most of the time.
I work for a company whose product runs on the web and it’s super frustrating that when we have a browser error our response is “are you using chrome”? One of the big draws of browser based apps is that they can run unchanged on Linux/Mac/Windows. But now you are telling me that most apps only work on chrome???
Also so many of the tutorials on JavaScript are done with chrome. People are learning how to use the chrome dev tools, and then not able to transition to using other browsers for web dev. It’s a mess.
Also so many of the tutorials on JavaScript are done with chrome. People are learning how to use the chrome dev tools, and then not able to transition to using other browsers for web dev. It’s a mess.
As long as Chrom(e|ium) isn't limited to one architecture/platform like MSIE was, I don't see this as a problem. I'm using Chromium on my Raspberry Pi right now to post this. I could never dream of doing such a thing 20 years ago. I'd have to hope someone hadn't broken the site for Mozilla and that it wouldn't crash repeatedly. The MSIE-dominant days were bad, but we're nowhere near that now.
It's a decent goal to increase Firefox usage, but the blog appears to miss the elephant in the room with this comment:
> Don’t get me wrong, though - using Firefox is not painful at all. Quite the contrary!
... after noting an anecdote earlier in the post
> Last week I saw one site that directly didn’t support Firefox (it displayed a message I should switch to Chrome) and another where the sign in was broken on Firefox, but worked on Chrome-like browsers
These experiences make using Firefox painful for end-users, and if Chrome is 99% as good and doesn't have this friction, they'll use Chrome just to experience less online friction.
It's a vicious chicken-egg problem, because if Firefox's market-share is sub-5%, then it doesn't matter why that sign-in page doesn't work in FF... Nobody empowered to fix it will bother to look, because the workaround of "Just use a different browser" is very cheap from the site-owner's point of view (way cheaper than spinning up a debugging flow in a browser they're unfamiliar with).
Low market share drives increased likelihood of browser-site incompatibility drives users to switch to the larger-market-share browser drives low market share.
> Don’t get me wrong, though - using Firefox is not painful at all. Quite the contrary!
... after noting an anecdote earlier in the post
> Last week I saw one site that directly didn’t support Firefox (it displayed a message I should switch to Chrome) and another where the sign in was broken on Firefox, but worked on Chrome-like browsers
These experiences make using Firefox painful for end-users, and if Chrome is 99% as good and doesn't have this friction, they'll use Chrome just to experience less online friction.
It's a vicious chicken-egg problem, because if Firefox's market-share is sub-5%, then it doesn't matter why that sign-in page doesn't work in FF... Nobody empowered to fix it will bother to look, because the workaround of "Just use a different browser" is very cheap from the site-owner's point of view (way cheaper than spinning up a debugging flow in a browser they're unfamiliar with).
Low market share drives increased likelihood of browser-site incompatibility drives users to switch to the larger-market-share browser drives low market share.
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There are a couple of misleading things in this post.
The assumption that Chromium (& Webkit) is controlled soley by Google, is outdated.
If you think Microsoft would have made a strategic shift like basing Edge on Chromium without ensuring they had a seat at the table, you would be very mistaken - and they did not.
Microsoft, Google, Brave, and Samsung all contribute to the core, Microsoft very significantly.
The assumption that Chromium (& Webkit) is controlled soley by Google, is outdated.
If you think Microsoft would have made a strategic shift like basing Edge on Chromium without ensuring they had a seat at the table, you would be very mistaken - and they did not.
Microsoft, Google, Brave, and Samsung all contribute to the core, Microsoft very significantly.
An article I want to see is: A broad overview of Chromium's governance and exactly how much control any one party has.
You're arguing "sole" control which is a Strawman and doesn't really address anyone's actual concerns. A better discussion is: Can Google make unilateral decisions on Chromium's direction/support/features in any circumstances?
What I'm about to say may upset people but if Chromium's governance model was good enough I could see Firefox joining it and turning Firefox into another Chromium based browser.
The problem with hegemony is governance and control, it isn't technological. Purely on a technical level hegemony is a good thing. But who controls the hegemony? If it is Google or any corp that is really, horrible.
You're arguing "sole" control which is a Strawman and doesn't really address anyone's actual concerns. A better discussion is: Can Google make unilateral decisions on Chromium's direction/support/features in any circumstances?
What I'm about to say may upset people but if Chromium's governance model was good enough I could see Firefox joining it and turning Firefox into another Chromium based browser.
The problem with hegemony is governance and control, it isn't technological. Purely on a technical level hegemony is a good thing. But who controls the hegemony? If it is Google or any corp that is really, horrible.
If Google will be able to have a monopoly on the rendering engines and dictate web standards that will be hugely detrimental to lots of companies.
I don't understand why those companies don't finance the development of alternative rendering engines and browsers. Right now Google is financing the only alternative left, Firefox. So they kind of control that, too.
I don't understand why those companies don't finance the development of alternative rendering engines and browsers. Right now Google is financing the only alternative left, Firefox. So they kind of control that, too.
I recently had to do a video call for a medical appointment. The video client was web based. I opened it up in the latest Firefox and was welcomed with a message informing me only Chrome was supported (or Safari on iOS). Ok, so now in order to receive healthcare in 2021 I must install Google spyware on my devices. This timeline is just swell.
Does Chromium work?
>sign in was broken on Firefox, but worked on Chrome-like browsers
I've seen that, but it was related to hardware keys. If Firefox cannot be bothered to support keys, why should anyone be bothered by using it?
More importantly though, it seems like the whole world is in this mess, because browser developers develop monoliths. If the browsers were split into small reusable parts, any developer could assemble one, and there could be lots of competing parts. The number of available browsers would explode to infinity. Why is everything lumped under a single massive code base known as "Browser engine" like gecko or blink or whatever? Why do they keep making monoliths? There could be parser engine, css layout engine, svg render engine, etc etc etc. But there isn't, there's one giant lump, browser engine.
If anyone made a focused attempt at a new browser ecosystem, it seems like it should attack the glue layer between these disparate parts.
I've seen that, but it was related to hardware keys. If Firefox cannot be bothered to support keys, why should anyone be bothered by using it?
More importantly though, it seems like the whole world is in this mess, because browser developers develop monoliths. If the browsers were split into small reusable parts, any developer could assemble one, and there could be lots of competing parts. The number of available browsers would explode to infinity. Why is everything lumped under a single massive code base known as "Browser engine" like gecko or blink or whatever? Why do they keep making monoliths? There could be parser engine, css layout engine, svg render engine, etc etc etc. But there isn't, there's one giant lump, browser engine.
If anyone made a focused attempt at a new browser ecosystem, it seems like it should attack the glue layer between these disparate parts.
I love the idea/ethics of Firefox 100%, but (and maybe this is just a "me" problem/my own lack of technical-prowess) but I actually find FF TOO "secure"/paranoid. Mainly the 2FA is just too much. I shouldn't need two devices to login to my account. Couple that with an apparent bug in FF that always sends the 2FA verification to my old email address (@gmail.com) despite my FF account showing that my email address should be "@vivaldi.net" and I'm over it. Vivaldi is the real winner, not Firefox. Plus the Vivaldi "ecosystem" also includes calendar and email. Browser supports tab-stacking, themes (including scheduled themes, if one desires), support for RSS feeds, and a ton of other features...
https://vivaldi.net/
https://vivaldi.net/
I've been using Firefox for almost a year now (on Phone and Desktop) and the only reason I switch to Chrome is to translate websites. I live in Netherlands and don't speak Dutch so to browse any local website I have to rely on Chrome's auto-translate thingy.
I find this plugin works well for auto translating https://addons.mozilla.org/en-GB/firefox/addon/traduzir-pagi...
Thanks! That works great. Like the parent, easy access to autotranslation is a reason I sometimes reach for a non-Firefox browser. It really ought be a feature shipped with Firefox; without it most of the web is effectively inaccessible.
The plugin relies on Google and Yandex for translations. Mozilla doesn't seem to have a problem with relying on or providing proprietary services (for better or worse) so that shouldn't be an obstacle, though I'd love to see an open source translation service replace them eventually -- maybe LibreTranslate https://github.com/FilipePS/Traduzir-paginas-web/issues/278
The plugin relies on Google and Yandex for translations. Mozilla doesn't seem to have a problem with relying on or providing proprietary services (for better or worse) so that shouldn't be an obstacle, though I'd love to see an open source translation service replace them eventually -- maybe LibreTranslate https://github.com/FilipePS/Traduzir-paginas-web/issues/278
Can I pay for Firefox? Even better I'd love to pay to have someone finish off Servo.
Not really. You can donate to the Mozilla Foundation, but they will use your money for outreach and advocacy, not Firefox.
This seems to be a repeat of the GNOME issues years and years and years ago where people would complain that donations were used to try and encourage women to program instead of spending it on infrastructure etc. I seem to remember people who complained about it were shouted down as mysogenist.
It seems the organisations forget why they're here - to write software, not to try and solve all of mankind's issues and injustices. The scope becomes too broad and unfocused.
It seems the organisations forget why they're here - to write software, not to try and solve all of mankind's issues and injustices. The scope becomes too broad and unfocused.
The Mozilla Foundation has seen their role as much larger than that for a long time. The first Mozilla manifesto came out in 2008 [1] and includes:
The Mozilla Foundation pledges to support the Mozilla Manifesto in its activities. Specifically, we will:
- build and enable open-source technologies and communities that support the Manifesto's principles; build and deliver great consumer products that support the Manifesto's principles;
- use the Mozilla assets (intellectual property such as copyrights and trademarks, infrastructure, funds, and reputation) to keep the Internet an open platform;
- promote models for creating economic value for the public benefit; and
- promote the Mozilla Manifesto principles in public discourse and within the Internet industry
[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20081218222911/http://www.mozill...
The Mozilla Foundation pledges to support the Mozilla Manifesto in its activities. Specifically, we will:
- build and enable open-source technologies and communities that support the Manifesto's principles; build and deliver great consumer products that support the Manifesto's principles;
- use the Mozilla assets (intellectual property such as copyrights and trademarks, infrastructure, funds, and reputation) to keep the Internet an open platform;
- promote models for creating economic value for the public benefit; and
- promote the Mozilla Manifesto principles in public discourse and within the Internet industry
[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20081218222911/http://www.mozill...
It still seems to hinge around consumer products and communities to support the products.
Perhaps the cart has now been put in front of the horse somewhat and they think that a great community (or being involved in issues entirely separate to software) will somehow magically create great software.
Perhaps the cart has now been put in front of the horse somewhat and they think that a great community (or being involved in issues entirely separate to software) will somehow magically create great software.
> I seem to remember people who complained about it were shouted down as mysogenist.
Yes, that would be because the whole story was basically lies.
https://fortintam.com/blog/outrageous-outreach/
Yes, that would be because the whole story was basically lies.
https://fortintam.com/blog/outrageous-outreach/
Ah interesting. I wasn't aware of the bankruptcy claims later on. I just remember the original issue where people were complaining about the focus on outreach programs instead of just software in general.
Interesting, thanks.
Interesting, thanks.
The only direct way currently is to pay for associated products like Firefox VPN, assuming it's available in your region. That money will go directly to Mozilla Corporation, which develops Firefox. Donations go to Mozilla Foundation, which does advocacy and various world-improving things (IMO). Mozilla Corporation cannot legally accept direct donations IIUC. I think it'd be a money laundering loophole or something?
Servo was never going to grow into a complete browser, and much of it was absorbed into Gecko (the Firefox codebase). But I agree, it would be great to have the Servo idea pushed further forward.
Servo was never going to grow into a complete browser, and much of it was absorbed into Gecko (the Firefox codebase). But I agree, it would be great to have the Servo idea pushed further forward.
> but from my perspective Apple is just another company that’s more focused on advancing their own agenda than the well-being of their users or open web standards
Right. Strange that. Who’d have thought that’s how a company would prioritize things.
Right. Strange that. Who’d have thought that’s how a company would prioritize things.
Doesn't Safari have the same relationship to WebKit as Chrome to Chromium? What's preventing other browsers to use WebKit instead of Chromium and make the open source browser engine competition a bit more lively?
I would assume that the answer is that the incentives for competing that way are small and maintaining a browser is expensive?
You would have to rely on donations. Which gives me an idea that probably already exists: a kickstarter/patreon alternative for recurring donations. Recurring donations won't start until there are enough for continuous funding of the project.
You would have to rely on donations. Which gives me an idea that probably already exists: a kickstarter/patreon alternative for recurring donations. Recurring donations won't start until there are enough for continuous funding of the project.
I am honestly surprised that the webdev community allowed this to happen. This is, pretty much, exactly what happened with Trident/Internet Explorer back in the day. This is also how we got the awesomeness that was ActiveX.
Though, to be fair to the Chromium maintainers, they've done an excellent job of making it incredibly easy to develop against. Puppeteer is the gold standard for browser automation, Chromium Headless makes it easy to run pretty much any webdriver against it, then there's Embedded Framework, Electron, etc. Firefox could have/should have done more here.
Though, to be fair to the Chromium maintainers, they've done an excellent job of making it incredibly easy to develop against. Puppeteer is the gold standard for browser automation, Chromium Headless makes it easy to run pretty much any webdriver against it, then there's Embedded Framework, Electron, etc. Firefox could have/should have done more here.
I remember using Konqueror in the middle of 00s. It was much better UI-wise, but a lot of web sites were broken in it so I had to default to Firefox often.
Guess what, today using Firefox is the same, even if it's better than Chromium derivatives for you, too often will you need to switch to Chromium when faced with Google Hangouts / Google Meet / Zoom / the fad of the day, or some random websites.
And this time it does not worth it since it's the same US corporate product, so I jumped this ship more eagerly. I'm on Yandex (the web browser) now.
Guess what, today using Firefox is the same, even if it's better than Chromium derivatives for you, too often will you need to switch to Chromium when faced with Google Hangouts / Google Meet / Zoom / the fad of the day, or some random websites.
And this time it does not worth it since it's the same US corporate product, so I jumped this ship more eagerly. I'm on Yandex (the web browser) now.
Google Meet works perfectly in Firefox, what are you talking about?
Nobody is using Google Meet now, and when people did, it didn't work. Maybe a few years back I had this problem - Hangouts would run but not Meet.
That's the thing with second-class citizen browsers - bleeding edge is often broken.
That's the thing with second-class citizen browsers - bleeding edge is often broken.
Maybe someone has the answer to the main reason I'm not using Firefox:
Is there a (sane) way to map Cmd+D to highlight the URL bar? I was trying to do this about a year ago but it proved insanely complicated. I managed to update omni.ja in v80 but then couldn't anymore in v80.0.2 (plus this would get annoying quick to do frequently).
In Chromium this is easy since the there's a menu entry for it ("Open Location...") so I can natively create custom mappings for it, but I refused to retrain my muscle memory for Cmd+L so I went back to using Brave. :|
Is there a (sane) way to map Cmd+D to highlight the URL bar? I was trying to do this about a year ago but it proved insanely complicated. I managed to update omni.ja in v80 but then couldn't anymore in v80.0.2 (plus this would get annoying quick to do frequently).
In Chromium this is easy since the there's a menu entry for it ("Open Location...") so I can natively create custom mappings for it, but I refused to retrain my muscle memory for Cmd+L so I went back to using Brave. :|
We somehow need to incentivize the proliferation of browser engines more than actual browsers themselves. Maybe an open design committee that could standardize modules the engines should contain along with calling conventions between them? That would encourage people to work on smaller chunks and not have to build the entire thing by hand. Perhaps browser engine prize competitions?
If there were even half a dozen capable browser engines to choose from when making a new browser that were all accessible, then we wouldn't be in this mess.
If there were even half a dozen capable browser engines to choose from when making a new browser that were all accessible, then we wouldn't be in this mess.
Sure but the Firefox interface is just so horrible. I've tried to switch at least three times in the past two years and after about two weeks I just throw my hands up go back to Chrome.
I get it. We all wish more people would use Firefox.
I tried to switch from Chrome to Firefox, and 98% of my websites work fine, but you still need Chrome as a backup for those sites that don't. Without 100% compatibility it's a hard sell when most users have no reason to leave Chrome.
I can't recommend Firefox to friends with the caveat "Keep a copy of Chrome around for when stuff doesn't work" Hopefully Mozilla can keep making things better. I'm glad someone is competing in this space
I tried to switch from Chrome to Firefox, and 98% of my websites work fine, but you still need Chrome as a backup for those sites that don't. Without 100% compatibility it's a hard sell when most users have no reason to leave Chrome.
I can't recommend Firefox to friends with the caveat "Keep a copy of Chrome around for when stuff doesn't work" Hopefully Mozilla can keep making things better. I'm glad someone is competing in this space
This is precisely why I've switched to Firefox in recent years. It's quite good these days. I don't even have Chrome installed on my current personal PC.
I wish there was an easy way to map all my chrome ext to firefox exts. For the ones that don't have an exact equivalent maybe the closest match would work fine. The point is I have over 30 extensions and every time I decide to use ff I realize I'm missing one or another ext. Even if I download the ff version of the ext it's still missing all the configuration and customized key bindings.
This is probably the major blocker from people switching.
This is probably the major blocker from people switching.
I switched to Firefox over 2 years ago, after using Chrome for more than 10 years. And while as a user I have my entire household converted to Firefox, as a developer I go with Chromium whenever I need to plug a shameless browser component in my projects. Why? Because Firefox does NOT have the equivalent!!! Why they won't do the same? I'll switch in a second to them instead of using Chromium. My 2 cents.
For anyone thinking "we can't possibly create a new production-ready browser engine", note that all major browsers except Firefox descended from one such project - KHTML.
"But you can't actually do it unless you're a $1T company" crowd forgets (or wasn't around to see) how dominant IE was, and how huge a project Mozilla was even back in the day.
"But you can't actually do it unless you're a $1T company" crowd forgets (or wasn't around to see) how dominant IE was, and how huge a project Mozilla was even back in the day.
You still have to consider how much new stuff got added into the overall Web (HTML+CSS+JS) spec since the old KHTML days though.
Totally agree. I was using Firefox until recently. After they announced their Rust based parallel engines I started using it.
But i stopped using it now the Mozilla Foundation is having hard times surviving....
The big problem is the fact that Google has sooo much money... We need a Twitter, a Facebook, or another company with a big cash cow to seriously support a different browser engine.
But i stopped using it now the Mozilla Foundation is having hard times surviving....
The big problem is the fact that Google has sooo much money... We need a Twitter, a Facebook, or another company with a big cash cow to seriously support a different browser engine.
One annoyed UX I dislike about Firefox is swipe back on iOS. Firefox team should fix their swipe back which go to previous page, it also lead to page refresh, and caused the scroll lose its position.
This deliver a poor experience when implementing History API compare to Safari and Google on iOS that work as expected.
This deliver a poor experience when implementing History API compare to Safari and Google on iOS that work as expected.
I've recently converted my personal usage to Safari as Chrome was proving buggy on the new MacBook Pro. I've enjoyed it, performance is essentially identical and Apple pay in the browser is the smoothest payment experience I've ever had on mobile web.
Although, autofill on Safari is objectively worse.
Although, autofill on Safari is objectively worse.
The article says that if you care about the web, you should care about Firefox. I disagree, because my "web" is probably not Batsov's "web". What is "the web" for me? Well, I'd say it's IRC, torrents, mailing lists, git repositories, oh and mostly-textual websites. I use Firefox for the latter, but for most of them I wouldn't mind using emacs-w3m instead. Unfortunately GitHub turned into a shitty JavaScript Web App, and many people still use it so I need to interact with it at times. So yeah, I care about having a Firefox version that can work with it. It doesn't need to be updated every week with the latest user-hostile interface changes. It doesn't need endless security updates, because JavaScript is disabled by default. I don't care about Firefox qua product anymore, because it too turned into a piece of trash long ago. I definitely don't care about the Mozillas. The only reason I still use it is that some mostly-textual websites are too shitty to run in a basic browser like emacs-w3m.
Hold on, Batsov's article is specifically about Web. Web is a hyperlinked document system accessed through the browser (modern WWW has an app layer on top of that, but it's not the point). IRC, torrents, e-mail, and git are not part of the Web.
Yes, I know. I thought about it after I posted. I wanted to emphasize that "web" can be a small part of Internet use, so a browser's importance is placed in a wider perspective. The rest of my comment talks about its importance within that niche, though.
I do my part, using firefox on all my devices and insisting it to be the main browser in my company. Interestingly, I also feel that Firefox is actually superior to Chrome in every aspect that matters: it is faster, passwords sync better and more reliably, and the user interface is better.
This blog is probably not meant for hackernews community overall. I for one have been using firefox in both desktop and mobile for quite sometime now.
I guess the problem today is nobody can be bothered to maintain sites for different browsers. Today I see most websites work well only in chrome.
I guess the problem today is nobody can be bothered to maintain sites for different browsers. Today I see most websites work well only in chrome.
Forgive my ignorance, but why is maintaining a browser so hard? HTML and CSS are decades old by now. Javascript is handled through a separate engine.
Is the problem that the standards keep evolving? Or are the standards just too difficult to perfectly support? What is going on?
Is the problem that the standards keep evolving? Or are the standards just too difficult to perfectly support? What is going on?
A web browser is essentially a small OS. The body of web standards is way bigger than it used to, and implementing things like security a much bigger deal than they were back then. Before, you could kinda say get this, get that, ok draw what they tell you, fine. Now you have to worry about shit like response times to your queries being used as an attack vector.
As far as I am concerned Firefox has only one flaw and that is missing separation between tabs.
Too bad Firefox doesn't fully support hangouts. in a work from home world, I cannot operate without the ability to blur background in video meetings. it's the only feature that is holding me back from using ff full time now
Whether it's more accurate to say that Firefox doesn't support Hangouts, or Hangouts doesn't support Firefox, is tough to say. Hangouts disables the blur feature because it performs poorly the way they've implemented it. Firefox is working to optimize that implementation (it's a valid way to go about it), but I believe it would be possible to have a different implementation that worked fine on existing Firefox.
Related, maybe someone wants to submit it to the HN queue: https://gist.github.com/ad72f1da36fbc965e4a1d4daeb1d6cb3
I wonder when Google will finally pull the plug on Mozilla. At 4.0% market share they can't deliver that much search volume to justify spending millions on their incredibly bad management.
Probably never, just to keep antitrust action at bay. Better to have a small market share competitor on life support than to be labeled a monopoly.
FWIW Mozilla is doing everything they can to drive us FF users away.
I use Safari for like a year already and see no problems with it.
> It’d be nice to see something similar on the mobile front at some point, but I doubt that will happen
AFAIK, Google Play offers a browser choice prompt on new Androids, at least in Europe
AFAIK, Google Play offers a browser choice prompt on new Androids, at least in Europe
I have just set up a monthly donation to Mozilla.
If Wikipedia can live on donations, why not Mozilla?
https://donate.mozilla.org
If Wikipedia can live on donations, why not Mozilla?
https://donate.mozilla.org
Be aware that donating to Mozilla doesn't contribute towards the development of Firefox.
Do we know for sure ?
Firefox is no longer just a browser. It's a brand. The gecko engine needs promoting; not Firefox any longer. The name confusion is going to destroy any hope, IMHO.
If Firefox is the alternative they better try harder...
Firefox has the best set of tools for developers imo.
Had largely surpassed Chrome in my daily usage (frontend dev) and works well with large sets of tabs
Mozilla betrayed the people a thousand times. It's time to face we the people have lost the war.
It's time to move on and build something new.
I use firefox on my android device, its a blessing to escape the ads. Predictably google maps is not very cooperative with it, which is one downside.
The real alternative: Simple and lightweight HTML, comprehensive compatibility and accessibility testing, noJS support, and progressive enhancement.
I switched to firefox already and happy with it.
About 6 months ago I forced myself off of Chrome and went cold turkey on just using Firefox until it was normalised for me.
In the end I gave up on the feature I’d be hoping Firefox would implement (tab search), and went with I just need to use this for the future of the web.
It’s been a happy process, I love containers for privacy and in the process I’ve discovered many niceties of Firefox.
Don’t miss chrome as my daily driver since I detoxed.
In the end I gave up on the feature I’d be hoping Firefox would implement (tab search), and went with I just need to use this for the future of the web.
It’s been a happy process, I love containers for privacy and in the process I’ve discovered many niceties of Firefox.
Don’t miss chrome as my daily driver since I detoxed.
it's not discoverable, but ff does have tab search. You prefix a search in your URL bar with '% ' (so like, if you enter '% esbuild', the "suggestions" in the dropdown will all be your tabs that match 'esbuild'
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the thing is, mozilla and firefox is the embodiment of a valiant battle for a sane, honest, human-centric digital universe. a battle that was fought and lost in the last decade. dystopia has won and it doesn't think of itself as dystopic, it thinks that it is doing God's work
there is no point crying over spilled milk, hoping that it can reconstitute into a jug. post-mortems might useful but they need to account for the tectonic continental plate drifts that tamed even extremely well funded actors like Microsoft
what the broader open source community should focus on is where the next choke point will materialize and ensure the same mistakes do not happen again
assuming there is a second chance
there is no point crying over spilled milk, hoping that it can reconstitute into a jug. post-mortems might useful but they need to account for the tectonic continental plate drifts that tamed even extremely well funded actors like Microsoft
what the broader open source community should focus on is where the next choke point will materialize and ensure the same mistakes do not happen again
assuming there is a second chance
It is not until it ships with tabs that scroll and don’t minimize
I use Pale Moon because Mozilla crippled Seamonkey (bastards!)
If there is any validity to crypto and DAO governance, someone would start a DAO to buy Mozilla and run the org in a decentralized way. Why are people messing around with buying copies of the constitution and NBA teams?
Headline editing is getting silly around here.
What's wrong with using Chromium though? I understand most of the work being done on it is by Google, but do they control the direction of the project?
iOS is literally the only reason that all websites don't require chrome at this point.
>it’s open-source in the real sense (a project that’s truly community-driven)
I guess that is why some companies are starting to get wary of the term open source.
> Chrome started with a great narrative when it was facing an uphill battle with Internet Explorer,
That is just not true, the uphill battle was hard won by Firefox and their supporters. People knew there were alternative browser. Developers were taking action in supporting Firefox. Chrome came in, with the help of Google Services steal the thunder. Although you could also blame Mozilla for failing to work on e10s, which was originally schedule for Firefox 3.5, pushed to Firefox 4 and later that is what we now call quantum.
>it’s home to the last major rendering engine, that’s not derived from WebKit
I dont think that is bad. Gecko isn't necessarily better than Webkit. You need to win on technical merit.
> Google were still the company that “does no evil”. It’s almost surreal how things have changed
"Surreal". I guess that is just life, when most were too young and naive to believe a new startup company could do evil. And Google was so righteous back then. When a few lonely conspiracy theorist were crying about Google, no one listened. Remember, that was before Steve Jobs declared Thermonuclear war. And before the Great Battle between Apple and Google started. But then even after the thermonuclear war, most people still believed in Google.
It wasn't until 2021 did anyone from ex-Mozilla stepped up and suggest what Google might have done.
And here is what I wrote about Mozilla [1] not long ago.
>And here is another unpopular opinion. I dont care if her salary is 3 million or even 30 million. If she had managed to bring Firefox to 60% marketshare and bring down Chrome on Desktop, would you have still complained if she was paid 30 million?
The problem is Mozilla is in such a bad shape and she is under performing as a CEO.
Unfortunately people dont learn much from history. And history dictate the only way to solve this problem is Mozilla think of it as a problem. Otherwise its current status at ~10% marketshare is enough to sustain its operation. Nothing bad enough is happening, no interest or incentive for changes. Inertia. Let's keep thing this way.
So yes, it is counter intuitive. The only way to save Mozilla ( or change Mozilla's direction, I guess the word "save" is a hyperbole, at least from Mozilla's perspective. ) isn't trying to get more user to use it. It is actually push people to abandon it.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28961544
I guess that is why some companies are starting to get wary of the term open source.
> Chrome started with a great narrative when it was facing an uphill battle with Internet Explorer,
That is just not true, the uphill battle was hard won by Firefox and their supporters. People knew there were alternative browser. Developers were taking action in supporting Firefox. Chrome came in, with the help of Google Services steal the thunder. Although you could also blame Mozilla for failing to work on e10s, which was originally schedule for Firefox 3.5, pushed to Firefox 4 and later that is what we now call quantum.
>it’s home to the last major rendering engine, that’s not derived from WebKit
I dont think that is bad. Gecko isn't necessarily better than Webkit. You need to win on technical merit.
> Google were still the company that “does no evil”. It’s almost surreal how things have changed
"Surreal". I guess that is just life, when most were too young and naive to believe a new startup company could do evil. And Google was so righteous back then. When a few lonely conspiracy theorist were crying about Google, no one listened. Remember, that was before Steve Jobs declared Thermonuclear war. And before the Great Battle between Apple and Google started. But then even after the thermonuclear war, most people still believed in Google.
It wasn't until 2021 did anyone from ex-Mozilla stepped up and suggest what Google might have done.
And here is what I wrote about Mozilla [1] not long ago.
>And here is another unpopular opinion. I dont care if her salary is 3 million or even 30 million. If she had managed to bring Firefox to 60% marketshare and bring down Chrome on Desktop, would you have still complained if she was paid 30 million?
The problem is Mozilla is in such a bad shape and she is under performing as a CEO.
Unfortunately people dont learn much from history. And history dictate the only way to solve this problem is Mozilla think of it as a problem. Otherwise its current status at ~10% marketshare is enough to sustain its operation. Nothing bad enough is happening, no interest or incentive for changes. Inertia. Let's keep thing this way.
So yes, it is counter intuitive. The only way to save Mozilla ( or change Mozilla's direction, I guess the word "save" is a hyperbole, at least from Mozilla's perspective. ) isn't trying to get more user to use it. It is actually push people to abandon it.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28961544
To me the problem is almost information theoretic. Browsers need to have a standard specification for interoperability and one that includes an open source reference implementation of the core parts. It seems chromium has become that standard.
I often argue against pure natural language specifications in favor code based specs. I just don't think human language is nearly precise enough to write an adequate specification. Natural language words are incredibly polysemic and contextual. Look for example, at how many meanings the word "break" has: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/break
Kolmogrov has long ago suggested that fully specified information distills down to a computer program: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov_complexity, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_description_length
The ideal language for a pure specification might be a mix of natural language and pseudo code with a pseudo test suit. However, if you are writing that, you might as well go one step further and write working testable code.
Other technical fields usually go beyond language for specifications, using blueprints and diagrams which are their version of code.
There is also an history of trying to tackle the inadequacy of natural language for technical specifications. A pioneer of this is Donald Knuth with his Literate Programming (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literate_programming) and the descendant concepts of having code with extractable inline comments that you can use to auto generate documentation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentation_generator
I would argue that modern platforms with pull request based workflows that tie discussions to version controlled code changes are also the progression of this line of thought.
A cleaned up version of these might make sense for a specification.
And I get some of the concerns. While natural language under specifies, reference implementations over specify. This is more of a problem with low level languages however. Modern, high level languages are getting fairly close to a form of pseudo code. I fully agree that the reference implementations shouldn't contain or should hide, low level optimizations. I also understand that reference implementations can unduly tie specs to specific hardware, OSs and platforms.
But to me, over-specification is less of a problem than under-specification and it can be mitigated by labeling particular functions or blocks of code as implementation specific and not part of the spec.
Without spec written in code, the different implementations always have subtle incompatibilities. I see egregious versions of under-specification in government where horrendously vague specs are created in order to issue RFPs for getting software built. They usually end up with non working software at mind blowing cost.
People have this weird misconception that they are contracting out to build software. They are not. Building software is really easy. You press the build button or type the compile command. Building software has been fully automated for a while now. What is difficult is designing software and specifying what it must do. This is because there is a vast jungle of protocols, business flows, hardware and software platforms that need to be interacted in different ways for different needs. This is what needs to be specified and only computer code can do it adequately.
I wish that Mozilla adopted the chromium core. We really need a well funded non-profit managed release of the reference browser.
I often argue against pure natural language specifications in favor code based specs. I just don't think human language is nearly precise enough to write an adequate specification. Natural language words are incredibly polysemic and contextual. Look for example, at how many meanings the word "break" has: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/break
Kolmogrov has long ago suggested that fully specified information distills down to a computer program: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov_complexity, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_description_length
The ideal language for a pure specification might be a mix of natural language and pseudo code with a pseudo test suit. However, if you are writing that, you might as well go one step further and write working testable code.
Other technical fields usually go beyond language for specifications, using blueprints and diagrams which are their version of code.
There is also an history of trying to tackle the inadequacy of natural language for technical specifications. A pioneer of this is Donald Knuth with his Literate Programming (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literate_programming) and the descendant concepts of having code with extractable inline comments that you can use to auto generate documentation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentation_generator
I would argue that modern platforms with pull request based workflows that tie discussions to version controlled code changes are also the progression of this line of thought.
A cleaned up version of these might make sense for a specification.
And I get some of the concerns. While natural language under specifies, reference implementations over specify. This is more of a problem with low level languages however. Modern, high level languages are getting fairly close to a form of pseudo code. I fully agree that the reference implementations shouldn't contain or should hide, low level optimizations. I also understand that reference implementations can unduly tie specs to specific hardware, OSs and platforms.
But to me, over-specification is less of a problem than under-specification and it can be mitigated by labeling particular functions or blocks of code as implementation specific and not part of the spec.
Without spec written in code, the different implementations always have subtle incompatibilities. I see egregious versions of under-specification in government where horrendously vague specs are created in order to issue RFPs for getting software built. They usually end up with non working software at mind blowing cost.
People have this weird misconception that they are contracting out to build software. They are not. Building software is really easy. You press the build button or type the compile command. Building software has been fully automated for a while now. What is difficult is designing software and specifying what it must do. This is because there is a vast jungle of protocols, business flows, hardware and software platforms that need to be interacted in different ways for different needs. This is what needs to be specified and only computer code can do it adequately.
I wish that Mozilla adopted the chromium core. We really need a well funded non-profit managed release of the reference browser.
In principle, I agree with this. Gecko/Quantum seems like a dead end.
The problem here is twofold. The "reference implementation" is already beholden to Google's interests, and only getting more intertwined as time goes on. The other problem is Mozilla, who I wouldn't trust to manage taking a dump, let alone a web browser.
Chromium is a fine platform. I'd love to see a community implementation of that which isn't directed by corporate interests or utter incompetents.
The problem here is twofold. The "reference implementation" is already beholden to Google's interests, and only getting more intertwined as time goes on. The other problem is Mozilla, who I wouldn't trust to manage taking a dump, let alone a web browser.
Chromium is a fine platform. I'd love to see a community implementation of that which isn't directed by corporate interests or utter incompetents.
firefox is the new internet explorer, deal with it
www.vivaldi.net
Maybe I am a minority, but I and some others I know of have turned their backs on Firefox because Mozilla got woke and spoke out in favor of censorship and promoting fake news. Since they are no longer proponents of freedom on the internet, any reason to still give them the time of the day has been gone away.
In fact I now celebrate their shrinking market share.
In fact I now celebrate their shrinking market share.
I receive all of Mozilla’s newsletters and I seethe whenever I see them demanding that more be done to sanitize online expression, which is all the time. That said, Chrome is hardly an alternative given Google’s approach to moderating YouTube.
I tried Vivaldi for a while and now I am using Edge. None of the options are really good. It's a shame.
Edge is a privacy disaster, sadly. You can't even make their sync fully end to end encrypted, and that's the tip of the iceberg from startpages to hardware-based browser IDs. Absolutely amazing product otherwise, but yuck.
After many years, I stopped using Firefox for this same reason. On the other hand, there is a fork named LibreWolf which so far is working well for me and is not related to Mozilla.
Thanks, I hadn't heard of LibreWolf before. Will check it out.
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Partisan politics is one hell of a drug
I don't know why so many companies feel compelled to needlessly take political stances. I think they can only lose from that.
Although I have heard Nike earned billions with the Kaepernick campaigns, so maybe sometimes it does pay off. But for Mozilla? Do they get government funding?
Although I have heard Nike earned billions with the Kaepernick campaigns, so maybe sometimes it does pay off. But for Mozilla? Do they get government funding?
But what does it matter to you? You can ignore it. It's a good browser and it doesn't insert political messages into websites.
They explicitly said the want to do more censorship and promote fake news (like the New York Times), so how can I trust that they won't influence my browsing? What is their differentiating factor to Google now?
It is a 180° turn on what they seemed to stand for in the past, an open web.
It is a 180° turn on what they seemed to stand for in the past, an open web.
> fake news like the NY times
...OK?
> What is their differentiating factor to Google now?
Mozilla doesn't gather your data to show you ads
...OK?
> What is their differentiating factor to Google now?
Mozilla doesn't gather your data to show you ads
"Mozilla doesn't gather your data to show you ads"
So they say, but they have teamed up with Google and Pocket before. And how do they plan to fight "hate speech" and promote fake news, without analyzing my data? What if they don't like what I write or look at?
So they say, but they have teamed up with Google and Pocket before. And how do they plan to fight "hate speech" and promote fake news, without analyzing my data? What if they don't like what I write or look at?
I don't think they will build censorship into the browser. I guess you can worry about that if and when it happens, not before.
What are they talking about, then? What is their plan? If they don't intent to build censorship mechanisms, maybe they shouldn't talk as if they do?
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It's a religious impulse.
It may not be literal religion, in the sense of believing "God says this is the right thing to do," but it is the same underlying instinct - "This is Right, and I must do all in my power to serve it."
Humans pick other people who agree with them for their teams, so after a while corporate cultures are almost guaranteed to become homogeneous.
Once they are, groupthink and lack of dissenting opinions means the company starts to explicitly support whatever causes fit its corporate culture.
That's what it looks like to me, anyway.
It may not be literal religion, in the sense of believing "God says this is the right thing to do," but it is the same underlying instinct - "This is Right, and I must do all in my power to serve it."
Humans pick other people who agree with them for their teams, so after a while corporate cultures are almost guaranteed to become homogeneous.
Once they are, groupthink and lack of dissenting opinions means the company starts to explicitly support whatever causes fit its corporate culture.
That's what it looks like to me, anyway.
It's a religious impulse for people, for companies is pure profit-driven marketing. They are into politics because people nowadays love politics. It is everywhere. People want to brand themselves and carry their political flag everywhere. So it sells.
I don't think they love politics per se, but they love to hate the opposing tribe.
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Recently reinstalled OS and tried Firefox for some time. Could only last a couple weeks before dumping firefox.
I guess Safari is still their own. KDE Konqueror still their own. Sad that opera became chrome. Guess I'll be staying Brave for awhile.
Firefox's huge decline also makes sense to me. Firefox stopped building their browser ~5 years ago? It's not that Chromium is inherently just better, it's that Mozilla moved off of firefox. When you lose focus on firefox, you lag behind.
https://blog.mozilla.org/careers/mozilla-diversity-inclusion...
They are far more concerned with hiring women. They hired themselves a 'Culture Manager' and 'people managers' and 'diversity managers'. Note how these are not Rust Software developer manager, protocol developer manager.
https://blog.mozilla.org/careers/mozilla-introduces-gender-t...
Imagine how good firefox could be if they weren't so concerned with their staffing diversity and instead worked on their browser.
https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/manifesto/
They are concerned about political activism, calling for people to be deplatformed, etc.
For that reason, firefox isn't even an alternative.
I guess Safari is still their own. KDE Konqueror still their own. Sad that opera became chrome. Guess I'll be staying Brave for awhile.
Firefox's huge decline also makes sense to me. Firefox stopped building their browser ~5 years ago? It's not that Chromium is inherently just better, it's that Mozilla moved off of firefox. When you lose focus on firefox, you lag behind.
https://blog.mozilla.org/careers/mozilla-diversity-inclusion...
They are far more concerned with hiring women. They hired themselves a 'Culture Manager' and 'people managers' and 'diversity managers'. Note how these are not Rust Software developer manager, protocol developer manager.
https://blog.mozilla.org/careers/mozilla-introduces-gender-t...
Imagine how good firefox could be if they weren't so concerned with their staffing diversity and instead worked on their browser.
https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/manifesto/
They are concerned about political activism, calling for people to be deplatformed, etc.
For that reason, firefox isn't even an alternative.
Why do you think inclusion and good engineering are mutually exclusive?
>Why do you think inclusion and good engineering are mutually exclusive?
I would not agree that is what I said. I'm not opposed to inclusion. I'm not even saying their decision is wrong. Maybe they are exactly what we need on the internet. I fully support their choice to do what they have done.
I have made a judgement against firefox. It has very clearly been neglected. There are a myriad of problems that have been unsolved for years and this is recent experience. I suspect nobody can refute this very real experience. I remember a time in history when firefox was a top contender with tons of market share.
So did I say that they are mutually exclusive? Certainly not, but in Mozilla's case their priorities are clear and the consequence of a bad browser is reality. they lost focus on their browser and it lagged behind.
I'm interested in why you asserted I said more than I did. Do you believe inclusion and good engineering are mutually exclusive? It certainly looks bad for Mozilla.
I would not agree that is what I said. I'm not opposed to inclusion. I'm not even saying their decision is wrong. Maybe they are exactly what we need on the internet. I fully support their choice to do what they have done.
I have made a judgement against firefox. It has very clearly been neglected. There are a myriad of problems that have been unsolved for years and this is recent experience. I suspect nobody can refute this very real experience. I remember a time in history when firefox was a top contender with tons of market share.
So did I say that they are mutually exclusive? Certainly not, but in Mozilla's case their priorities are clear and the consequence of a bad browser is reality. they lost focus on their browser and it lagged behind.
I'm interested in why you asserted I said more than I did. Do you believe inclusion and good engineering are mutually exclusive? It certainly looks bad for Mozilla.
In my experience woke activists are attention vampires who drain focus away from doing things to doing activism. It is one thing to have activist organizations, but these types invariably try to turn production-focused organizations into activist ones.
For example, the recent move to switch from master branches to main branches provides near zero benefits, mass gnashing of teeth, and hours upon hours of wasted time. It is time spent increasing adherence to a cause and beating down dissent to the cause, and time spent away from things like producing code or, on the activists' part, doing things like teaching people if you're of the opinion that their cause is a good one.
I've seen far more environments turn for the worse after their entry, than become better for it (though a small handful have done so)
For example, the recent move to switch from master branches to main branches provides near zero benefits, mass gnashing of teeth, and hours upon hours of wasted time. It is time spent increasing adherence to a cause and beating down dissent to the cause, and time spent away from things like producing code or, on the activists' part, doing things like teaching people if you're of the opinion that their cause is a good one.
I've seen far more environments turn for the worse after their entry, than become better for it (though a small handful have done so)
rvz(3)
Mozilla is a terrible organization and Firefox is a joke
I prefer typing to pointing -- and I like clean interfaces --, so I use the VIm-inspired but Chromium-based Qutebrowser; but maybe I should just use Firefox and let the inconvenience of pointing inspire me to browse less. Qutebrowser would -- at least alternatively -- use the Firefox backend if it could, but Mozilla has chosen not to make it usable by other browsers than Firefox.
There are multiple capable vi plug-ins for Firefox so you don’t even need to self-flagellate
I tried those in the past, but found they didn't work well. They also tended to break with every Firefox update.
The good thing about Web Extensions is now there's a stable API, so they don't break (at least they never have for me).
There is one thing I don't understand from the article. What is that he is so afraid of?that the website becomes more standarized and developers don't need to make a website for 5 different browsers? Or that because of that users will have less problems? Is that such a big deal to make most of the browsers dependent on chromium? Isn't chromium open source and tomorrow anyone could create a better browser? I use Vivaldi, can't be happier.... Some people seem to be worry about a lot of stuff
As someone who lived through the previous browser monopoly (MSIE), let me assure you that giving control over the entire web to one company is bad for everyone. Google didn't make Chrome out of the goodness of their hearts.
It's not viable to maintain an open source browser without a large team of engineers. Chromium would likely die if Google abandoned it.
"Chromium would likely die if Google abandoned it."
I believe that is highly unlikely. At root the Blink engine is actively supported by several big tech heavyweights. Microsoft Edge is based on it. A rarely mentioned but important derivative browser is Silk (Fire tablets etc.) that Amazon develops. Then there are a bunch of smaller fish with Brave leading that pack.
I think the engine would survive just fine without Google. There was a time when you're view held, but that time has past.
I believe that is highly unlikely. At root the Blink engine is actively supported by several big tech heavyweights. Microsoft Edge is based on it. A rarely mentioned but important derivative browser is Silk (Fire tablets etc.) that Amazon develops. Then there are a bunch of smaller fish with Brave leading that pack.
I think the engine would survive just fine without Google. There was a time when you're view held, but that time has past.
Two things that I think are worth calling out:
1. In many ways Apple's anti-competitive behaviour on iOS/iPadOS is a blessing. It's one of the few things that keep Chromium's dominance in check. Of course, it's not great that Apple are stifling innovation like this, but consider the alternative: Chromium dominance on all platforms.
2. Why it's worth caring about this at all? So what if Chromium is the only engine, it would make things easier for developers after all. To this I say, go read some of the discussions in standard bodies(for example about FLoC). Engineers from Apple and Mozilla are largely our bastion against Google's harmful proposals for the web. Pushback from Apple and Mozilla are only relevant as long as they have market share to speak of. The recent lawsuit against Google(summary[0]) by many US states should be extremely worrying to anyone that cares about the open web and it should make handing over any more control to Google a terrifying prospect.
Mozilla maintains a list[1] of their positions on various standard suggestions that is also a useful resource.
0: https://twitter.com/fasterthanlime/status/145205393819534131...
1: https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/