Ask HN: When to Quit?
89 comments
I will say that for me, personally, the people I work with have a much larger impact on my job satisfaction than any of the technical aspects. I don’t currently work with the most advanced and interesting technologies but I do really like the people on my team and we all get along and work really well together.
An anecdote: I previously left a job to pursue what I thought would be a great opportunity to work with a “modern” and fun technology stack. However, my new manager turned out to be a totally manipulative jerk and my coworkers were rude and uncaring. I lasted about 9 months there (enduring stress and panic attacks like I’d never dealt with) before I reached out to my old boss and asked for my old job back, which is where I’ve been for the last 4 years and I’m very happy I made that decision.
So even if the stack is terrible, think about how other aspects of the job impact your mental health and stress levels. Can you live with a terrible stack (or maybe even think about ways to improve it) while working with good people? Does your compensation cover any downsides to working with that stack?
If you feel you’re underpaid, can’t stand the technology, and the relationships with your coworkers don’t balance either of those aspects out, then I think it’s time to pursue something else. But be warned that the grass isn’t always greener on the other side.
An anecdote: I previously left a job to pursue what I thought would be a great opportunity to work with a “modern” and fun technology stack. However, my new manager turned out to be a totally manipulative jerk and my coworkers were rude and uncaring. I lasted about 9 months there (enduring stress and panic attacks like I’d never dealt with) before I reached out to my old boss and asked for my old job back, which is where I’ve been for the last 4 years and I’m very happy I made that decision.
So even if the stack is terrible, think about how other aspects of the job impact your mental health and stress levels. Can you live with a terrible stack (or maybe even think about ways to improve it) while working with good people? Does your compensation cover any downsides to working with that stack?
If you feel you’re underpaid, can’t stand the technology, and the relationships with your coworkers don’t balance either of those aspects out, then I think it’s time to pursue something else. But be warned that the grass isn’t always greener on the other side.
Strongly agree.
I lucked into some great coworkers for my first two jobs out of college. I assumed the whole industry was this way.
Then eventually a company came along and offered me compensation that I couldn't refuse. I joined assuming I'd be surrounded by good coworkers as before, but I was wrong. It was toxic from the top down, but they used the high compensation (including back-loaded vesting schedules and signing bonuses with long retention periods) as a hook to keep employees in the toxic environment.
I made a lot of money, but it took a major toll on my health. I ended up taking time off after leaving that job, to the point that the extra compensation was largely a wash relative to what I could have made somewhere else.
YMMV. There are great companies with great compensation, great tech stacks, and great people. But it's rare to get the entire combination in one. FAANG type jobs with an easy manager might be the most repeatable option, but even there you can end up with a bad department or bad manager that defines your experience. Nothing is guaranteed.
I lucked into some great coworkers for my first two jobs out of college. I assumed the whole industry was this way.
Then eventually a company came along and offered me compensation that I couldn't refuse. I joined assuming I'd be surrounded by good coworkers as before, but I was wrong. It was toxic from the top down, but they used the high compensation (including back-loaded vesting schedules and signing bonuses with long retention periods) as a hook to keep employees in the toxic environment.
I made a lot of money, but it took a major toll on my health. I ended up taking time off after leaving that job, to the point that the extra compensation was largely a wash relative to what I could have made somewhere else.
YMMV. There are great companies with great compensation, great tech stacks, and great people. But it's rare to get the entire combination in one. FAANG type jobs with an easy manager might be the most repeatable option, but even there you can end up with a bad department or bad manager that defines your experience. Nothing is guaranteed.
But what happens when your great manager and team leave?
I've made the mistake before of staying longer at a job than I should have because my manager and team were awesome. Then my manager decides to resign for greener pastures. Thankfully his replacement was also a great guy...until he too resigns two years later.
Coincidentally, having been traumatized by the departure of the first manager, I too had been preparing to leave and had offers in hand (not because I was strictly unhappy, but along the lines of "a leetcode a day keeps unemployment away"). My (second) manager's departure was the nail in the coffin and sealed the deal.
Furthermore, shortly after both I and my (second) manager had left, the higher-ups decided to completely reorganize the entire department so all the existing teams were broken apart and everyone shuffled around into new teams. From what I heard, people were not happy.
I think the days when you could depend on your manager and team to be a constant factor are long gone unless you're working for a very small shop where your manager might be the owner/CEO. Meanwhile, the tech stack is much more likely to be a constant factor during your entire tenure.
Your manager's and teammates' first responsibility is their own career. If they see greener pastures, they will jump ship regardless of your situation. You should likewise, lest you end up holding bags.
I've made the mistake before of staying longer at a job than I should have because my manager and team were awesome. Then my manager decides to resign for greener pastures. Thankfully his replacement was also a great guy...until he too resigns two years later.
Coincidentally, having been traumatized by the departure of the first manager, I too had been preparing to leave and had offers in hand (not because I was strictly unhappy, but along the lines of "a leetcode a day keeps unemployment away"). My (second) manager's departure was the nail in the coffin and sealed the deal.
Furthermore, shortly after both I and my (second) manager had left, the higher-ups decided to completely reorganize the entire department so all the existing teams were broken apart and everyone shuffled around into new teams. From what I heard, people were not happy.
I think the days when you could depend on your manager and team to be a constant factor are long gone unless you're working for a very small shop where your manager might be the owner/CEO. Meanwhile, the tech stack is much more likely to be a constant factor during your entire tenure.
Your manager's and teammates' first responsibility is their own career. If they see greener pastures, they will jump ship regardless of your situation. You should likewise, lest you end up holding bags.
The comradery + expertise of good coworkers is 100% the biggest thing for me. It's one of those polarizing things, but Gallup has stuck to their guns on making the "best friend" question part of Q12:
https://www.gallup.com/workplace/236213/why-need-best-friend...
And I agree. I've been at my current job over a decade, and there have absolutely been rough patches for which the main thing carrying me through was getting to work with good people.
https://www.gallup.com/workplace/236213/why-need-best-friend...
And I agree. I've been at my current job over a decade, and there have absolutely been rough patches for which the main thing carrying me through was getting to work with good people.
> I reached out to my old boss and asked for my old job back
I'm sure it varies by company, but did they bother with a standard interview loop?
I'm sure it varies by company, but did they bother with a standard interview loop?
In my case they didn’t. My former boss and I basically met up for lunch, talked about it, and then a few days later I got a new offer letter. I did have to do another round of background checks just to make sure nothing had come up in the months I was gone. They also hadn’t fully backfilled my role (they had hired a couple of contractors during my absence) so it was still technically an available position.
Another thing to note is that when I left previously I did so on very good terms and gave plenty of notice. I’m sure that played a part in how willing they were to have me come back.
Another thing to note is that when I left previously I did so on very good terms and gave plenty of notice. I’m sure that played a part in how willing they were to have me come back.
Quit your job. Deep down you already made the decision.
If you need logical reasons why, read about this study on how we all should make more change decisions:
https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/study-of-20000-coin-tos...
If you need logical reasons why, read about this study on how we all should make more change decisions:
https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/study-of-20000-coin-tos...
This is the answer. And don't worry about applying logic to it: Do what you want to do, and will make you happy. Do it intelligently: Don't quit your current job until you have a new one secured. Don't burn any bridges. Don't accept less than your current salary. But do it.
The truth is that most people make their decisions emotionally, then explain and achieve them rationally. That's okay. Do what you want to do, not what you think you can justify.
The truth is that most people make their decisions emotionally, then explain and achieve them rationally. That's okay. Do what you want to do, not what you think you can justify.
> Don't accept less than your current salary. But do it.
I've accepted a lower salary a few times to move on from an org to a better work life balance. Usually it involves moving away from NYC companies. Salary shouldn't be the singular reason for not accepting a position if it's competitive.
I've accepted a lower salary a few times to move on from an org to a better work life balance. Usually it involves moving away from NYC companies. Salary shouldn't be the singular reason for not accepting a position if it's competitive.
> I've accepted a lower salary a few times to move on from an org to a better work life balance. Usually it involves moving away from NYC companies. Salary shouldn't be the singular reason for not accepting a position if it's competitive.
I'd be hesitant on giving this advice because it's the exception - not the norm.
I've done the same - taken less pay for a chance at a better work environment. But I was going from like $1m+/yr (IPO gains) to $400k/yr. It was a huge cut but it wasn't going from market rate to below market rate which is what your advice is kinda leading with. It was going from a very "above market rate" (tbh - it was probably still below market rate because I had done startups before that hadn't worked out... This was one that was kinda working out) to something closer to market rate.
I plan to change jobs and find one with better hours, better environment, etc... I plan to make about $500k/yr at the next job.
I'd be hesitant on giving this advice because it's the exception - not the norm.
I've done the same - taken less pay for a chance at a better work environment. But I was going from like $1m+/yr (IPO gains) to $400k/yr. It was a huge cut but it wasn't going from market rate to below market rate which is what your advice is kinda leading with. It was going from a very "above market rate" (tbh - it was probably still below market rate because I had done startups before that hadn't worked out... This was one that was kinda working out) to something closer to market rate.
I plan to change jobs and find one with better hours, better environment, etc... I plan to make about $500k/yr at the next job.
You're right, actually, that's legitimate. Sometimes it can be worth it. I did a similar move earlier in my career.
But it's another layer of tactical thinking - what are you getting in exchange for that money? So for the OP, I'd encourage them to figure out if they're making market rate or not before they make that judgment.
But it's another layer of tactical thinking - what are you getting in exchange for that money? So for the OP, I'd encourage them to figure out if they're making market rate or not before they make that judgment.
Curious where you went to (at least geographically, if you don't want to share details) from "NYC companies".
I'm in the NYC area, and the delta between companies in NYC vs. elsewhere nearby (i.e. NJ) is huge both in terms of options and pay.
I have a few friends in NJ that explicitly refuse to work in NYC/Manhattan because of the horrible commute/transit situation. The downside is that they seem to have very limited options in terms of companies they can work for in NJ.
I'm in the NYC area, and the delta between companies in NYC vs. elsewhere nearby (i.e. NJ) is huge both in terms of options and pay.
I have a few friends in NJ that explicitly refuse to work in NYC/Manhattan because of the horrible commute/transit situation. The downside is that they seem to have very limited options in terms of companies they can work for in NJ.
I moved upstate and another was in MA. So on both occasions I moved from NYC area.
I really enjoy research like this and I can't put my finger on why. I don't think I'd have the same interest in a study about a particular decision - like whether people are happier or not after they've had children.
There's something about simple studies about long term/life altering decisions that appeals to me. I get the same feeling from reading this and reading 80,000 hours [0].
[0] https://80000hours.org/
There's something about simple studies about long term/life altering decisions that appeals to me. I get the same feeling from reading this and reading 80,000 hours [0].
[0] https://80000hours.org/
Seems like you’re advising that OP quit his job simply because that’s what his intuition is saying.
Our intuition often misguides us when problems are complex. Whether or not this is the type of problem that you should follow your intuition on depends on how multi-faceted the criteria are for a successful work relationship. The more multi-faceted the criteria, the more we should use our rational brain to decide.
Our intuition often misguides us when problems are complex. Whether or not this is the type of problem that you should follow your intuition on depends on how multi-faceted the criteria are for a successful work relationship. The more multi-faceted the criteria, the more we should use our rational brain to decide.
If intuition is consistently biased in the "stay" direction then it's not exactly wrong to say "if even your intuition says you should quit then the case for doing so is most likely overwhelming"
A short while back, I quit my job - nice folks, terrible stack. I went to a company that works 100% in AWS, everything gitops, everything pipeline automated. It was shiny and textbook perfect. I got like an 8% raise, but added 5% state income taxes (NH guy working in MA for the first time)
Anyways after five months of textbook perfect gitops, I'd had my third conversation with a human being at this company (Manager didn't do 1-1s, team didn't talk, there was no 'watercooler' chat. And this was in a physical office!). They said that if everyone was doing their jobs perfectly, that no one would really need to communicate outside of code commits.
Of course, this was extreme and I just picked the wrong place because I got strung up on a shiny tech stack. Something in the middle would have been better. I went back to my original job after five months, even with the crummy tech stack, because the people are social and it seems like they benefit from my presence.
I'm glad I did it - I learned a lot, at the cost of suffering some extreme loneliness, doubt, and then self-humiliation to get back to where I was before I started. I recommend anyone try it to at least get it out of their systems.
My job is the same, but it seems less bad. Is that a win?
Anyways after five months of textbook perfect gitops, I'd had my third conversation with a human being at this company (Manager didn't do 1-1s, team didn't talk, there was no 'watercooler' chat. And this was in a physical office!). They said that if everyone was doing their jobs perfectly, that no one would really need to communicate outside of code commits.
Of course, this was extreme and I just picked the wrong place because I got strung up on a shiny tech stack. Something in the middle would have been better. I went back to my original job after five months, even with the crummy tech stack, because the people are social and it seems like they benefit from my presence.
I'm glad I did it - I learned a lot, at the cost of suffering some extreme loneliness, doubt, and then self-humiliation to get back to where I was before I started. I recommend anyone try it to at least get it out of their systems.
My job is the same, but it seems less bad. Is that a win?
Sounds like a lovely Sabbatical - you gained invaluable perspective!
Would you do it again?
Would you do it again?
I don’t know what anyone should do. I think there are no black and white answers anywhere.
But… I can tell you that there’s some weird recommendation right now that if you are the least bit unhappy, or have the slightest bit of FOMO, or have been slighted in the tiniest of ways… “that you must quit”.
Like… that people are being convinced there is no value in having a current job if it isn’t your dream job.
I just had a developer ghost us two weeks ago. Just not come in one day and only when repeatedly texted answered he is looking for other work. Besides the extremely unprofessional aspect, when pressed he had no answer for what we could do better except double his pay or why he wouldn’t look in his off time.
We paid him a good salary for his resume and work, but he has somehow convinced himself that he can make double somewhere else and still work 32 hours a week with an extremely relaxed working environment.
I just don’t get who is making these insane recommendations to people, or why anyone would listen.
I wish our former guy luck, but whatever job you plan on taking - please don’t fucking ghost your employer out of no where.
But… I can tell you that there’s some weird recommendation right now that if you are the least bit unhappy, or have the slightest bit of FOMO, or have been slighted in the tiniest of ways… “that you must quit”.
Like… that people are being convinced there is no value in having a current job if it isn’t your dream job.
I just had a developer ghost us two weeks ago. Just not come in one day and only when repeatedly texted answered he is looking for other work. Besides the extremely unprofessional aspect, when pressed he had no answer for what we could do better except double his pay or why he wouldn’t look in his off time.
We paid him a good salary for his resume and work, but he has somehow convinced himself that he can make double somewhere else and still work 32 hours a week with an extremely relaxed working environment.
I just don’t get who is making these insane recommendations to people, or why anyone would listen.
I wish our former guy luck, but whatever job you plan on taking - please don’t fucking ghost your employer out of no where.
>But… I can tell you that there’s some weird recommendation right now that if you are the least bit unhappy, or have the slightest bit of FOMO, or have been slighted in the tiniest of ways… “that you must quit”.
Yeah I have also found this, it's a bit strange. I think the pandemic changed it a lot as well. Employers got more desperate and employees noticed.
>please don’t fucking ghost your employer.
Yeah OP, please don't do this. Common courtesy and such. I encourage everyone to not be an asshole. You totally can, just try not to.
Yeah I have also found this, it's a bit strange. I think the pandemic changed it a lot as well. Employers got more desperate and employees noticed.
>please don’t fucking ghost your employer.
Yeah OP, please don't do this. Common courtesy and such. I encourage everyone to not be an asshole. You totally can, just try not to.
"We paid him a good salary for his resume and work, but he has somehow convinced himself that he can make double somewhere else and still work 32 hours a week with an extremely relaxed working environment."
You sound like a reasonable human but the quoted is a huge red flag for me. Whenever someone said 'we pay him a good salary' it was far from the truth.
You sound like a reasonable human but the quoted is a huge red flag for me. Whenever someone said 'we pay him a good salary' it was far from the truth.
The horror of someone wanting a better life!
The horror of someone getting a worse life because they improperly evaluated downside risk.
As a software developer, there’s basically no risk. The demand right now is off the charts.
There's risk of going someplace that's dysfunctional. That's part of whether you're getting a better or worse life - it's not just based on money.
Or are you saying that they can just switch again? They can, of course, but if you've switched N times in the last few years, at least some of the more functional places start becoming reluctant to hire you...
Or are you saying that they can just switch again? They can, of course, but if you've switched N times in the last few years, at least some of the more functional places start becoming reluctant to hire you...
Well, I had the idea of quitting my current job in mind and the when was "probably in one or two years", for a few small reasons that were adding up. Can't say I'm not learning new things, and my colleagues are really nice.
And then I ran into two folks from another company at an event, the discussion was going really well, and one of them, the boss, told me "Join us!" (I didn't show any intent to join them or to quit my current job).
That solved the problem for me. They seem to offer what I'm looking for. This is an opportunity that ran into me.
I wouldn't rely on such thing to happen, but maybe it can happen to you too?
And then I ran into two folks from another company at an event, the discussion was going really well, and one of them, the boss, told me "Join us!" (I didn't show any intent to join them or to quit my current job).
That solved the problem for me. They seem to offer what I'm looking for. This is an opportunity that ran into me.
I wouldn't rely on such thing to happen, but maybe it can happen to you too?
Number of times I've regretted quitting a job: 0
Number of times I've heard of anyone regretting quitting a job: 0
ie its never a bad time
That being said, I interview engineers at a larger tech company. I view it as a negative for a candidate to have multiple short term stints (less than a year).
ie its never a bad time
That being said, I interview engineers at a larger tech company. I view it as a negative for a candidate to have multiple short term stints (less than a year).
I regretted quitting my job in 2017. I left for 9 months and came back, but for less equity than I originally had. (The equity I walked away from in the first stint would have made me a few million dollars richer than I currently am.)
There, now that number is 1.
There, now that number is 1.
> I view it as a negative for a candidate to have multiple short term stints (less than a year).
Do you mind explaining why? I would personally be seen like that by you, but I personally consider it a good thing that I was able to "rise" so quickly in my career. I'd like to hear your take on this if possible.
Do you mind explaining why? I would personally be seen like that by you, but I personally consider it a good thing that I was able to "rise" so quickly in my career. I'd like to hear your take on this if possible.
If I hire you, I want you to be able to stick around long enough to get something done. Typically that's at least 2 years. Staying for less typically makes the hiring process not worth it. Plus now I immediately have to go hire another person again.
There was a discussion on tenure length in another topic a month or two ago.
I'm curious what you would think about someone who's stayed at one company (same role, same team, maybe some minor increase in responsibility and rank) for 5 years? 10 years?
Would you view someone like that better or worse than someone who has multiple n <= 2 year stints during that time?
My observation recently, having been through interview loops and having stayed at my previous company for 7 years, is that longer tenures seem to be perceived as bad these days at tech companies...possibly worse than multiple short stints. Perceptions of expert beginner syndrome, 1 year of experience * n years instead of n years of experience, laziness, lack of motivation, etc. being typical reasons given.
I'm curious what you would think about someone who's stayed at one company (same role, same team, maybe some minor increase in responsibility and rank) for 5 years? 10 years?
Would you view someone like that better or worse than someone who has multiple n <= 2 year stints during that time?
My observation recently, having been through interview loops and having stayed at my previous company for 7 years, is that longer tenures seem to be perceived as bad these days at tech companies...possibly worse than multiple short stints. Perceptions of expert beginner syndrome, 1 year of experience * n years instead of n years of experience, laziness, lack of motivation, etc. being typical reasons given.
> I'm curious what you would think about someone who's stayed at one company (same role, same team, maybe some minor increase in responsibility and rank) for 5 years? 10 years?
It depends. A long tenure means I will check in the interviews whether you were stagnating and just killing time, or growing and delivering on major improvements.
One of the best people I worked with spent 10 years at a very minor company, but the work they spoke about in the interview was extensive, and they took on a huge amount of development work across our entire company once they joined.
It depends. A long tenure means I will check in the interviews whether you were stagnating and just killing time, or growing and delivering on major improvements.
One of the best people I worked with spent 10 years at a very minor company, but the work they spoke about in the interview was extensive, and they took on a huge amount of development work across our entire company once they joined.
Makes sense. Thank you.
I've not regretted quitting a job but I have regretted joining the company that I jumped to.
When you find something that looks better to you. Since you're uncertain, you can look around. If everything out there seems worse than your current job, it makes sense to stay where you are.
Of course when you're making this assessment, there are a bunch of unknowns about any potential new job, so it has to look significantly better to compensate for the risk you're taking (and for the overhead of switching).
Of course when you're making this assessment, there are a bunch of unknowns about any potential new job, so it has to look significantly better to compensate for the risk you're taking (and for the overhead of switching).
Everyone is different. Staying at a job isn't just about the job for everyone. What are your goals? What else is going on in your life? Optimizing for learning is great if you are looking for growth. Is it the best idea when you've just had a baby?
If you are looking for growth and learning opportunities, and you aren't getting them, them find a new job and then leave. The job market for engineers is red hot, so that shouldn't be a concern. And, assuming you have a little bit of discretional money / savings, you should be fine on that front.
Just be aware, the grass isn't always greener and it's very hard to learn about an company from the outside, because culture can be very different team to team. So, if you move once, be prepared to have to move again, if need be.
For me, I'm still looking for growth and to take on more responsibilities (to grow as a leader). I've learned that if your boss isn't your champion, growth isn't going to come inline. So, it's probably time to leave. But, that's just me.
If you are looking for growth and learning opportunities, and you aren't getting them, them find a new job and then leave. The job market for engineers is red hot, so that shouldn't be a concern. And, assuming you have a little bit of discretional money / savings, you should be fine on that front.
Just be aware, the grass isn't always greener and it's very hard to learn about an company from the outside, because culture can be very different team to team. So, if you move once, be prepared to have to move again, if need be.
For me, I'm still looking for growth and to take on more responsibilities (to grow as a leader). I've learned that if your boss isn't your champion, growth isn't going to come inline. So, it's probably time to leave. But, that's just me.
Most recently for me, there were a couple of things:
1) I had no where to go career wise. Vertical movement meant becoming a manager
2) My last couple of performance reviews felt like they were nitpicking to rank me lower. It felt like a cheap trick.
3) We went from being an R&D POC group to a production group. I enjoyed both, but the former is more fun
1) I had no where to go career wise. Vertical movement meant becoming a manager
2) My last couple of performance reviews felt like they were nitpicking to rank me lower. It felt like a cheap trick.
3) We went from being an R&D POC group to a production group. I enjoyed both, but the former is more fun
When you have a firm offer to start a new one in two weeks. There are other reasons, but a real different job is big as you never know when or if you can find a new job. This is a great time to look, but you might be the unlucky person who doesn't get an offer.
If you have a lot of saving you can sometimes risk leaving for a few months of travel, but give yourself plenty of time to get a job before savings runs out. (Different counties have different support for this so check to see how the rules work where you live )
If they are doing something illegal then if you don't quit when you discover it, that is because the FBI or equivalent asked you to stay on to gather evidence. Illegal covers harassment, though you shouldn't stay on if it is against you )
In general though don't risk not having income.
If you have a lot of saving you can sometimes risk leaving for a few months of travel, but give yourself plenty of time to get a job before savings runs out. (Different counties have different support for this so check to see how the rules work where you live )
If they are doing something illegal then if you don't quit when you discover it, that is because the FBI or equivalent asked you to stay on to gather evidence. Illegal covers harassment, though you shouldn't stay on if it is against you )
In general though don't risk not having income.
Disclaimer: I've never quit or been laid off (except when the whole thing closed up).
I'd quit if "things turned sour", that depends the mood, the interpersonal relationships, my own sense of feeling good about the situation at work.
I know some people are very worried about "falling behind", and they may be right, I don't know, I explore stuff that interests me, I do that either on my own time, or I find some excuse to do it at work (metaprogramming, refactoring, internal or personal tool building, are examples where you can do whatever you want).
I'd quit if "things turned sour", that depends the mood, the interpersonal relationships, my own sense of feeling good about the situation at work.
I know some people are very worried about "falling behind", and they may be right, I don't know, I explore stuff that interests me, I do that either on my own time, or I find some excuse to do it at work (metaprogramming, refactoring, internal or personal tool building, are examples where you can do whatever you want).
The best time to start looking for a new, better job is the day after you start your old prior job. In other words, you are never not looking for your next job. Depending on "how good you have it" that may be easier or harder to accomplish. It doesn't mean you have to leave your current team, department, company, or industry. It may be an expansion of your current role, taking on a direct report when you have none, or taking on a direct report who's doing something a little far afield from who you currently manage.
If you're "already gone" and wondering when to look for a position truly outside of your current team / department / company / industry then the best time to start looking is... today. The sooner you start the sooner you'll begin gaining the most valuable resource possible in this scenario: more information! Knowing what kind of response your resume is getting, what roles are out there for you, what companies are interested in you, and what the pay looks like for those roles... all of that is very difficult to acquire absent an actual job search. The sooner you start looking, the sooner you'll have a feel for where your resume and interviewing skills could take you next. Then you can weigh if it's enough better than your current role to be worth it.
If you're "already gone" and wondering when to look for a position truly outside of your current team / department / company / industry then the best time to start looking is... today. The sooner you start the sooner you'll begin gaining the most valuable resource possible in this scenario: more information! Knowing what kind of response your resume is getting, what roles are out there for you, what companies are interested in you, and what the pay looks like for those roles... all of that is very difficult to acquire absent an actual job search. The sooner you start looking, the sooner you'll have a feel for where your resume and interviewing skills could take you next. Then you can weigh if it's enough better than your current role to be worth it.
You should leave when you have a better opportunity elsewhere. No more, no less.
Maybe he/she was asking a bit more detail on how to define and decide what is a 'better' opportunity? Since there are many factors, it is not obvious at all how to weight those: colleagues, salary, location, commute distance, work-from-home options, job stability, learning oportunity, freedom in how/what to work on, and many more.
I mean the key thing is you need concrete points of comparison. OP clearly feels their current position is lacking in some way so they should be looking around, and once they get looking around it will be much easier to make a decision.
[deleted]
It depends (a little bit) on your age, and (a lot) on your desire to learn or do more. You might be hitting a point where you are getting bored, sick of not learning anything new in your current position, and this may be the biggest motivator for you.
Other factors or metrics or motivators or whatever we might call them may include money (you mentioned), comfort, job security, work environment, travel time ...I can't think of any more right now. One big indicator might be when you wake up in the morning and you dread going into work. Chances are you will be happier somewhere else.
You're time and skills are valuable, that's why you get paid to do the job you do. It's up to you to find the line.
(edit) Also, you can try moving up in the company you are in? If you like the culture and environment and whatnot, and feel you are being under utilized, they may have something more demanding for you to do there.
Other factors or metrics or motivators or whatever we might call them may include money (you mentioned), comfort, job security, work environment, travel time ...I can't think of any more right now. One big indicator might be when you wake up in the morning and you dread going into work. Chances are you will be happier somewhere else.
You're time and skills are valuable, that's why you get paid to do the job you do. It's up to you to find the line.
(edit) Also, you can try moving up in the company you are in? If you like the culture and environment and whatnot, and feel you are being under utilized, they may have something more demanding for you to do there.
Just start looking for a new job, and when you are holding the offer, it should be obvious whether you actually want to leave. There's a big difference between "this job is insufferable, I'll walk out into uncertainty over this" and "I can stay or I can go to this specific new place".
I have a friend in a similar position. Nice, friendly team, but stack based on 10 year old tech. He was telling me how he upgraded a dependency that hadn't been touched since 2013. If it works, don't fix it I guess. If you're bored, not learning anything good, move on.
One factor to consider, the market strongly favors candidates at the moment. I'm currently on the flip side, of trying to hire a large engineering team.
Interviewing is no fun, but you are at a time when you could find a company working on the exact technology you want to grow in.
So, whatever your personal metrics are, or current employer metrics are, I would also add a market metric that influences your decision.
Other factors to consider:
1. Do you have a clear growth plan from your company in either management or individual contributor?
2. How have your recent performance reviews gone?
3. However you rank this, are you satisfied with your day to day work and find it interesting?
When I can't stop thinking about whether I should find new work, I find new work.
It's time to leave a job when you can't think of a good reason to stay.
I’m struggling with a similar situation where I’m at. I’ve experienced significant growth opportunities over the last 5 years, the company I work for is good and growing quickly. I work with friendly and nice folks. I have great benefits, awesome work life balance, and I have basically free autonomy to steer and do what I want.
There is just something missing. I feel like I’ve reached a peak and am not actively learning and growing. However, the last thing I want to do is go to a toxic environment that expects long hours and treats employees terribly.
There is just something missing. I feel like I’ve reached a peak and am not actively learning and growing. However, the last thing I want to do is go to a toxic environment that expects long hours and treats employees terribly.
First: It's not about quitting this job. It needs to be about finding the next job. This should be an upward progression of your career toward the next big thing, not just disconnecting from the old thing.
As for when: You said your job pays decently well and you're working with good people. Don't underestimate the value of that! If you're not actively escaping a toxic situation, it's not a good idea to rush your job search. Take your time to find a known good working environment as your next step.
As for when: You said your job pays decently well and you're working with good people. Don't underestimate the value of that! If you're not actively escaping a toxic situation, it's not a good idea to rush your job search. Take your time to find a known good working environment as your next step.
If you have good people, sane management, and decent pay, think well before you leave. There are a lot of positions where you have either toxic coworkers, management that is disconnected from reality, and/or crummy pay. Would you trade that for a better stack?
And the problem is, you don't get told in the interview, "Yeah, our management is insane". You usually find that out later. Same with toxic coworkers. So, is the tech stack bad enough to be worth rolling the dice?
And the problem is, you don't get told in the interview, "Yeah, our management is insane". You usually find that out later. Same with toxic coworkers. So, is the tech stack bad enough to be worth rolling the dice?
Everyone has their own set of metrics, sounds like rate of learning is a big one for you. In this case look for options that maximizes that metric, then compare and tradeoff along other dimensions. Be careful heeding others' stories. The flaw with overcomplicating this decision process with too many data points, especially from others on HN in different places in their lives and have preferences than you, is that it will lead to prolonged indecision and ultimately regret. Good luck!
Chasing a shiny stack is not a good idea. It might not be shiny for long, and it's not worth putting up with a shitty environment, team or management structure just to play with the latest hotness. You can do that in your own time anyway these days.
But escaping a shitty stack may be a good idea. If you spend 7 years working in some retro cold fusion environment that will certainly look bad on the resume.
If the stack is uninspiring but pragmatic (let's say Oracle + java) then other factors should rank higher.
But escaping a shitty stack may be a good idea. If you spend 7 years working in some retro cold fusion environment that will certainly look bad on the resume.
If the stack is uninspiring but pragmatic (let's say Oracle + java) then other factors should rank higher.
I think it's always safe to start looking, start preparing, start marketing yourself when you don't really need to. Especially when you feel the way you feel now.
That way you have a feel for the waters, see what's available in terms of tech stack and team culture/vibe, with a much longer runway of looking around than when you are pushed off the cliff on a dead-end project, where you know it's the last straw. You are less stressed this way.
That way you have a feel for the waters, see what's available in terms of tech stack and team culture/vibe, with a much longer runway of looking around than when you are pushed off the cliff on a dead-end project, where you know it's the last straw. You are less stressed this way.
One more general principle is that often a decision isn't as irreversible as it might seem. You could very likely spend a year or two trying to find a better fit at other companies, then return to this job, possibly with much better pay, and content that the grass is as green as the rest.
Also, something my brother told me years ago is, "if you're trying to decide between two things, try to pick the one that lets you do both."
Also, something my brother told me years ago is, "if you're trying to decide between two things, try to pick the one that lets you do both."
Ask yourself the question, what are the consequences of not quitting? When the answer to that question is outweighed by positives of the corollary question what are the consequences of quitting, it is time to move jobs.
As with the stock market people tend to sell too late when prices are falling and sell too early when prices are rising. Sounds like you are waiting to "call the bottom before selling".
As with the stock market people tend to sell too late when prices are falling and sell too early when prices are rising. Sounds like you are waiting to "call the bottom before selling".
Basically it’s when you get less than you give.
Including salary, experience, connections, fun, whatever your priorities are.
And you’re the only one who can estimate the value right.
Including salary, experience, connections, fun, whatever your priorities are.
And you’re the only one who can estimate the value right.
According to one study, if you're 50/50 on quitting, you'll end up significantly happier if you quit: https://www.gwern.net/docs/psychology/2020-levitt.pdf (p18, Table 5).
Research on psychology (loss aversion) suggests the same thing, AFAICT.
Research on psychology (loss aversion) suggests the same thing, AFAICT.
Changing jobs is a chance to:
* Gain experience with new technology stacks
* Gain experience in new domains (e.g. go from web dev to backend distributed systems)
* Gain experience in a new role (tech lead, manager, etc.)
* Make more money
* Work at a place with more scale
* Work at a place that's more prestigious (FAANG or startup)
* Build more professional contacts
* Apply experience you already have for big impact
Any young engineer should seriously consider changing jobs every 2 years or so.
* Gain experience in new domains (e.g. go from web dev to backend distributed systems)
* Gain experience in a new role (tech lead, manager, etc.)
* Make more money
* Work at a place with more scale
* Work at a place that's more prestigious (FAANG or startup)
* Build more professional contacts
* Apply experience you already have for big impact
Any young engineer should seriously consider changing jobs every 2 years or so.
At my previous job, I simply benched for 11 months, It was pain just to reminding myself that I'm doing nothing. It was hard to move on. Lot of good people around but I made a choice, I don't regret it, I'm happy, What I earn now is 1/4th of what I used to get (currently freelancing). I feel alive.
When you can't decide, answer is no - Naval Ravikant
When you can't decide, answer is no - Naval Ravikant
Not a job but a very steady client.
I was working on a pretty nice project when this long-term client announced that for the next project, we would need to support an old version of the operating system. I had just gotten up to speed on the latest APIs and their statement meant, that my efforts would be a malinvestment.
I stopped working for them, and took on another long-term client.
I was working on a pretty nice project when this long-term client announced that for the next project, we would need to support an old version of the operating system. I had just gotten up to speed on the latest APIs and their statement meant, that my efforts would be a malinvestment.
I stopped working for them, and took on another long-term client.
Make it easier on yourself by changing the problem statement: decide what the things that you want to achieve and see improvements in are, and then never give up on those.
That should, hopefully, make all kinds of life decision-making easier. You'll still need to make calculations and take risks, but it'll keep you on course.
That should, hopefully, make all kinds of life decision-making easier. You'll still need to make calculations and take risks, but it'll keep you on course.
I remember this quote from Bryan Cantrill in the context of the time he chose to leave Sun Microsystems (after it had been acquired by Oracle):
«when you can't make the right thing happen, it's time to quit»
I think it's a general rule of thumb, albeit it should probably be interpreted according to one's specific situation.
«when you can't make the right thing happen, it's time to quit»
I think it's a general rule of thumb, albeit it should probably be interpreted according to one's specific situation.
He was pissed at his cushy Distinguished Engineer role being canned. All those folk were. Oracle offered all Principal and above an IC4 only role to prove their worth. This is why he was pissed.
I've heard some crazy things about myself over the years, but this might just take the cake! As I have said before[0], Oracle gave me many, many reasons to leave -- none of which had anything to do with the way they were dealing with me personally. If you don't mind me asking (and just because I'm so mesmerized that someone could come away with something so wildly wrong): where did you get this notion?! Did someone tell you this? Did you come up with it on your own?
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc&t=2047s
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc&t=2047s
All senior staffs and DEs were reset to IC4 in the offer letter. I don't need anybody to tell me as I was there.
Sure, but that didn't have anything to do with my departure. I didn't particularly care about the title -- I was always much more concerned with the problems I was solving, the people I was solving them with, and the customers that we served. And honestly, it was Oracle's behavior with respect to the last of these -- namely, Oracle's total disdain for its customers -- that I just couldn't stomach. In short, I found myself ashamed of my employer -- and that's why I left.
I can't say for the everyone, but looking back on my previous employments the ones which I remember fondly were the ones where I, as a person, could influence the part or the whole company.
You can't influence anything if you aren't valued in any way.
You can't influence anything if you aren't valued in any way.
Same exact shoes except I'm a 34 year old manufacturing engineer.
I've heard recently that when faced with indecision it can be helpful to brainstorm a bunch of different questions to ask oneself.
Have you bounced around a lot between different jobs throughout your career?
I've heard recently that when faced with indecision it can be helpful to brainstorm a bunch of different questions to ask oneself.
Have you bounced around a lot between different jobs throughout your career?
One doesn't appreciate nice coworkers until one has had to deal with the alternative.
How long you been on it? Few years? Sounds like you are ready. Any less, I would say look at your history and make sure it won't make you look like a problem employee (not all employers are progressive about job hopping).
If you're thinking about it, it's time. Prepare your resume and start looking. It's a great time in the market to get a new job. Seeing raises from 20-80% from some people I know in my network.
In the past I have also thought along the lines of exit criteria and it didn’t work for me. The correct answer is you should leave soon. Exit metrics leads to thinking like “as long as I’m learning I will keep at it.” Or “as long as I like my coworkers I will stay.” Or “as long as I keep experience career growth it is a good place”. This can just be an elaborate justification of a nasty and unfair status quo.
I’ve known people who write out their exit criteria ahead of time “if an idea is ignored when I say it but accepted when someone else says it then I’ll leave.” This helps avoid biasing toward the status quo, but it’s hard to do midway through.
But really the answer is you should probably leave and sooner the better. I think this XKCD cartoon is pretty spot on: https://xkcd.com/1768/ In my experience it is pretty accurate and it is the answer you are looking for.
But really the answer is you should probably leave and sooner the better. I think this XKCD cartoon is pretty spot on: https://xkcd.com/1768/ In my experience it is pretty accurate and it is the answer you are looking for.
IF (Skullduggery x ButFudgery) >= (Satisfaction x Prestige)
THEN QUIT
Learn on your own time, if you value it and can't make it part of your job. Nothing beats working with good people and you can't take it for granted.
1. You've stopped learning things there
2. Some of the team is lousy but no one seems to be working on coaching/firing them
3. Management won't spend a dollar to save a dollar
2. Some of the team is lousy but no one seems to be working on coaching/firing them
3. Management won't spend a dollar to save a dollar
Update your resume and start looking. No need to make a decision before you see what's out there.
people you are working with nice, and you can enjoy working with.
Also not much strees of work, then staying would be better option.
As far as learning is concerned, you have various opportunities to learn outside of work as well, taking course or building project.
As far as learning is concerned, you have various opportunities to learn outside of work as well, taking course or building project.
Quit vs find a new job are Teo totally different questions IMO
A great place to work will take you back if you regret it.
What are your goals?
The answer is often "yesterday."
For me it was when they said "Get vaccinated or GTFO."
"Ok, I quit."
"Ok, I quit."
This doesn’t make you cool, it makes you an ass. History will not remember your stubbornness fondly. Please get vaccinated. You are holding up the world. I don’t care it’s not completely effective, data shows it’s the unvaxed that fill hospital beds. Let’s move on…
Perhaps this will be the first time that those promoting mass censorship, internal passports, discrimination, putting people in camps (see Australia), etc., wind up on the right side of history. I'm betting not.
None of those issues have anything to do with you not being vaxed. While I agree the responses by the State are a problem, this is not the issue at hand. The issue is that you are walking around unvaxed, and proud of it. Do not conflate growing authoritarian with your own selfish desires to infect others.
The antivaxers are not, and have never been at any time in history, on the right side.
The antivaxers are not, and have never been at any time in history, on the right side.
Naturally, that led me to trying to enumerate when I should leave a job.
I'm curious what metrics others here use to determine when it's time to move on. What makes you decide that it's time to quit your job?