Show HN: Simula One – Portable Linux VR Computer(shop.simulavr.com)
shop.simulavr.com
Show HN: Simula One – Portable Linux VR Computer
https://shop.simulavr.com/
408 comments
This looks like a decent deal looking deeper into it.
Things that weren't obvious on first pass:
(1) The VR specs are much higher than consumer level. I suspect this is what makes it reasonable to read text on it. The comparison headset is this: https://varjo.com/products/aero/ (They named it, but didn't google it)
(2) They said "VR Computer" but don't define the term. They mean that it's a full PC with a headset instead of a regular display. Oddly they don't include a mouse or keyboard.
My feedback for Simula one:
(0) The value proposition here is (a) the included equipment and (b) the software. They together have to justify the price at some level.
(1) You have to really push the point that this is a full computer, not another headset. I suggest you include a keyboard/mouse, and include it in the pictures with the headset (the pictures with just the headset, not the ones with the people). Perhaps a keyboard with a trackpad.
(2) Show that the headset is substantially higher-spec than the consumer ones. Show a comparison chart.
(3) Dump the AR coffee shop video. Show AR in a home office. Don't assume/require that your customers are that VR gun-ho.
(4) Show more than a bunch of shells in the VR screenshots. I can alt-tab as fast as I can move my head, with less work. If this is your underlying value proposition, it sucks. I'm sorry. If you have something more interesting, like a combined VR/app environment, then it can work.
(4.1) Is there some useful interactions between 3D visualization and high-quality small-text rendering? If you have good VR/3D developer stories, then this can work.
(5) Simula One - is it Ubuntu with a 3d window manager and custom rendering stack? Does it do anything else? Does it just make a (claustrophobic) shell of windows around the user in VR?
(5.1) Are there any integrations with anything? Like https://blog.jupyter.org/ipygany-jupyter-into-the-third-dime... ipygany?
(5.2) What do you expect people to do with it? Is
Things that weren't obvious on first pass:
(1) The VR specs are much higher than consumer level. I suspect this is what makes it reasonable to read text on it. The comparison headset is this: https://varjo.com/products/aero/ (They named it, but didn't google it)
(2) They said "VR Computer" but don't define the term. They mean that it's a full PC with a headset instead of a regular display. Oddly they don't include a mouse or keyboard.
My feedback for Simula one:
(0) The value proposition here is (a) the included equipment and (b) the software. They together have to justify the price at some level.
(1) You have to really push the point that this is a full computer, not another headset. I suggest you include a keyboard/mouse, and include it in the pictures with the headset (the pictures with just the headset, not the ones with the people). Perhaps a keyboard with a trackpad.
(2) Show that the headset is substantially higher-spec than the consumer ones. Show a comparison chart.
(3) Dump the AR coffee shop video. Show AR in a home office. Don't assume/require that your customers are that VR gun-ho.
(4) Show more than a bunch of shells in the VR screenshots. I can alt-tab as fast as I can move my head, with less work. If this is your underlying value proposition, it sucks. I'm sorry. If you have something more interesting, like a combined VR/app environment, then it can work.
(4.1) Is there some useful interactions between 3D visualization and high-quality small-text rendering? If you have good VR/3D developer stories, then this can work.
(5) Simula One - is it Ubuntu with a 3d window manager and custom rendering stack? Does it do anything else? Does it just make a (claustrophobic) shell of windows around the user in VR?
(5.1) Are there any integrations with anything? Like https://blog.jupyter.org/ipygany-jupyter-into-the-third-dime... ipygany?
(5.2) What do you expect people to do with it? Is
Upvoted for the excellent feedback.
1. We'll do a better job defining the term "VR Computer" in our sales page.
2. We'll consider adding a keyboard/mouse as optional add-ons. We have thought about including a "keyboard apron" as an item add-on that is actually differentiated from other keyboards, and one that would be particularly useful for VR computing (with the added freedom of movement).[1] Would something like this interest you? Note that we'd use a more accessible keyboard than the 40% "Corne keyboard" one shown in the photo.
3. We're going to add some of our comparison charts showcasting the Simula One versus other products/prices. They were included in a recent blog post[2], but aren't featured on our shop. Looks like they would be helpful there as well.
4. We're definitely interested in developing "3D office apps" (or something like a Linux ecosystem for them), but decided that the first step was to get people using our 2D VR app environment first.
5. At a high level, SimulaOS is going to be NixOS + our VR window manager. The current features of this window manager are outlined here: https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula. We plan to add to these features over time (especially including: VR app tiling/window grouping and hand interactions). This should be better showcased in our shop though for sure. Thanks for flagging this.
[1] https://www.wolframcloud.com/obj/george.w.singer/business/pn...
[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29923197
1. We'll do a better job defining the term "VR Computer" in our sales page.
2. We'll consider adding a keyboard/mouse as optional add-ons. We have thought about including a "keyboard apron" as an item add-on that is actually differentiated from other keyboards, and one that would be particularly useful for VR computing (with the added freedom of movement).[1] Would something like this interest you? Note that we'd use a more accessible keyboard than the 40% "Corne keyboard" one shown in the photo.
3. We're going to add some of our comparison charts showcasting the Simula One versus other products/prices. They were included in a recent blog post[2], but aren't featured on our shop. Looks like they would be helpful there as well.
4. We're definitely interested in developing "3D office apps" (or something like a Linux ecosystem for them), but decided that the first step was to get people using our 2D VR app environment first.
5. At a high level, SimulaOS is going to be NixOS + our VR window manager. The current features of this window manager are outlined here: https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula. We plan to add to these features over time (especially including: VR app tiling/window grouping and hand interactions). This should be better showcased in our shop though for sure. Thanks for flagging this.
[1] https://www.wolframcloud.com/obj/george.w.singer/business/pn...
[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29923197
I have the opposite opinion as the parent post re: keyboard/mouse. If I'm buying a piece of kit like this I have very strong opinions already re: my input devices. Unless you can make good margin on the keyboard/mouse option I think you're just adding friction and expense to your internal processes to support it.
As an aside: I've tried to learn a chording keyboard in the past without much success. In a desktop setting a chording keyboard never increased my productivity enough to make it worth the learning curve. A chording keyboard with this platform would be a much more positive value proposition for me.
As an aside: I've tried to learn a chording keyboard in the past without much success. In a desktop setting a chording keyboard never increased my productivity enough to make it worth the learning curve. A chording keyboard with this platform would be a much more positive value proposition for me.
Frankly the keyboard included doesn't matter. Include it as an optional add-on, but _put_it_in_the_picture_. So it looks like a complete system, not just a headset.
I think the included keyboard idea was moreso to make clear that its an actual computer and not just a "VR monitor".
As an example, if you saw a monitor for sale and it came with a keyboard, you'd assume that it could be an all-in-one rather than just a monitor (you'd probably do some more research to confirm this obviously), whereas if you just saw a monitor on its own, you'd assume the opposite.
Of course in the case of AIO's and monitors its already quite clear what your buying, but in this case those context cues are a lot more important. I'm not sure it needs to actually include a keyboard, and if it does a cheap one would be perfectly fit for the purpose Im describing, but certainly it should be shown with one as much as possible.
As an example, if you saw a monitor for sale and it came with a keyboard, you'd assume that it could be an all-in-one rather than just a monitor (you'd probably do some more research to confirm this obviously), whereas if you just saw a monitor on its own, you'd assume the opposite.
Of course in the case of AIO's and monitors its already quite clear what your buying, but in this case those context cues are a lot more important. I'm not sure it needs to actually include a keyboard, and if it does a cheap one would be perfectly fit for the purpose Im describing, but certainly it should be shown with one as much as possible.
I'm also very interested in chording keyboards, though never tried one yet - but planning to try building a Chordite DIY prototype Some Day. Also thus interested in any AR / video passthrough features (and their speed), esp. from an angle of whether the VR set would be usable e.g. while walking...?
First, congrats on all the progress you've made. I've been part of your mailing list and watching from the sidelines for a while. I really do hope you succeed, and i love the idea, i just don't have the spare cash to pre-order.
> At a high level, SimulaOS is going to be NixOS + our VR window manager.
I don't know all the technical details about Nix and the various VR development SDK/tools available, but when i see something like "it'll use NixOS" when i know NixOS is very opinionated and unique in how one uses it and develops for it, i immediately assume that it is 100% is some engineer on the team's tech pet project technology, and not necessarily the best tool for the job.
Is there any reason to use it over eg. Debian/Ubuntu/etc that has a lot more use and people are more familiar with tweaking and developing for it?
> At a high level, SimulaOS is going to be NixOS + our VR window manager.
I don't know all the technical details about Nix and the various VR development SDK/tools available, but when i see something like "it'll use NixOS" when i know NixOS is very opinionated and unique in how one uses it and develops for it, i immediately assume that it is 100% is some engineer on the team's tech pet project technology, and not necessarily the best tool for the job.
Is there any reason to use it over eg. Debian/Ubuntu/etc that has a lot more use and people are more familiar with tweaking and developing for it?
Thanks for following our progress. I think this is a good question.
Before getting into "reasons for NixOS", I just want to note that our headset is still an open-source Linux flavored project, which means that if you don't like our choices, you are free to install whatever Linux distro you want on it. =] You'll probably want to use Simula's window manager, but even here there will be other choices as well (xrdesktop, Stardust's display server, and so forth).
NixOS is definitely an opinionated distro, at least in terms of how it allows developers to configure a system. However, as builders, we view it as our job to make informed, opinionated choices on what the defaults are. (To be clear, not saying we can never be wrong or learn from these choices). Here are some reasons we chose NixOS as the basis for our VR distro:
1. *NixOS allows us to provide the best support to our users.* Simula itself (https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula) is built over nix build tools, and we have the most experience and comfort with that ecosystem. This means we are able to solve other people's issues much easier using our own familarity with the system if things go wrong.
2. *NixOS allows for system rollbacks if something goes wrong.* If either we or a user accidentally torches a headset, NixOS makes it so that all they have to do to get things running again is rollback to the most recently working configuration in the boot benu, and the problem is solved. This is particularly important for a beta/early adopter product like ours, and makes it more manageable for us to support things if things go wrong.
3. *NixOS allows us to iterate faster/release headset updates more quickly.* Using NixOS allows us to push frequent (and non-breaking) system updates much more easily than other distros, which is important for an early/iterative product like ours.
4. *Using Nix[OS] allows our software components to work on other distros.* Building all of our software components over nix allows us to support as many Linux distros as possible. This is important so that we can support, e.g., our Tethered headsets when users connect them to different Linux hosts. It also makes it easier for us to support users who change their Linux distro, but still use some Simula components (e.g., our VR window manager).
5. *A disproportionate number of existing Simula users run NixOS.* Despite NixOS being a "niche" distro, we've noticed a shocking number of people (at least in our Discord) run NixOS already, which makes us more comfortable with the choice.
Before getting into "reasons for NixOS", I just want to note that our headset is still an open-source Linux flavored project, which means that if you don't like our choices, you are free to install whatever Linux distro you want on it. =] You'll probably want to use Simula's window manager, but even here there will be other choices as well (xrdesktop, Stardust's display server, and so forth).
NixOS is definitely an opinionated distro, at least in terms of how it allows developers to configure a system. However, as builders, we view it as our job to make informed, opinionated choices on what the defaults are. (To be clear, not saying we can never be wrong or learn from these choices). Here are some reasons we chose NixOS as the basis for our VR distro:
1. *NixOS allows us to provide the best support to our users.* Simula itself (https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula) is built over nix build tools, and we have the most experience and comfort with that ecosystem. This means we are able to solve other people's issues much easier using our own familarity with the system if things go wrong.
2. *NixOS allows for system rollbacks if something goes wrong.* If either we or a user accidentally torches a headset, NixOS makes it so that all they have to do to get things running again is rollback to the most recently working configuration in the boot benu, and the problem is solved. This is particularly important for a beta/early adopter product like ours, and makes it more manageable for us to support things if things go wrong.
3. *NixOS allows us to iterate faster/release headset updates more quickly.* Using NixOS allows us to push frequent (and non-breaking) system updates much more easily than other distros, which is important for an early/iterative product like ours.
4. *Using Nix[OS] allows our software components to work on other distros.* Building all of our software components over nix allows us to support as many Linux distros as possible. This is important so that we can support, e.g., our Tethered headsets when users connect them to different Linux hosts. It also makes it easier for us to support users who change their Linux distro, but still use some Simula components (e.g., our VR window manager).
5. *A disproportionate number of existing Simula users run NixOS.* Despite NixOS being a "niche" distro, we've noticed a shocking number of people (at least in our Discord) run NixOS already, which makes us more comfortable with the choice.
An underappreciated benefit of the functional distros (Nix/Guix) for specialized hardware like this is that reproducing the original image (potentially with some tweaks) is very straightforward. For Guix this is just a 'guix system image' with essentially the same 'operating-system' declaration you'd use to configure your system normally; I don't have much direct experience with Nix but I imagine it's fairy similar. Provided you distribute the system config (and I can't imagine you wouldn't), building a slightly customized version of the image should be easy.
By contrast, it is not clear how I'd build e.g. the customized version of Ubuntu that a laptop manufacturer might ship.
By contrast, it is not clear how I'd build e.g. the customized version of Ubuntu that a laptop manufacturer might ship.
Thank you for the great reply! I hope I didn't come across as mean spirited, I spent the whole day worried. My comment was meant to be critical but not dismissive - I feel like your response truly educated me as to how Nix could provide meaningful solutions.
Again, keep up the great work, and hopefully one day in the near future I'll be able to try out Simula in person!
Again, keep up the great work, and hopefully one day in the near future I'll be able to try out Simula in person!
No worries! I enjoyed the discussion. And thanks for your interest in Simula. Can't wait for you to be able to try it out in person. =)
I just want to comment that, my interest in a VR headset is precisely for standard terminal-based editing, except that now the focal point is at infinity and my eyes can relax better. That might be an underappreciated draw.
Consider seeing if that holds and including that as a use case. You'd have +1 consumers here and I cannot be alone.
Consider seeing if that holds and including that as a use case. You'd have +1 consumers here and I cannot be alone.
The focal point in our headset is on the order of ~2m. Infinite conjugate adds significant difficulty and basically nobody does this (we tried in our first iteration). But 2m is comfortably far, imo
Yeah, that's so much better than the 1m for 14 hrs/day I get here at home.
> 2. We'll consider adding a keyboard/mouse as optional add-ons. We have thought about including a "keyboard apron" as an item add-on that is actually differentiated from other keyboards, and one that would be particularly useful for VR computing (with the added freedom of movement).[1] Would something like this interest you? Note that we'd use a more accessible keyboard than the 40% "Corne keyboard" one shown in the photo.
I can't use a computer without having a keyboard, and I can't use a keyboard without being able to see it.
If you can solve both of those, then I'll seriously consider acquiring one. Perhaps not version one, but version two for sure. Something closer to a traditional keyboard would suit me better, however; I'm not likely to be walking around while wearing this.
I can't use a computer without having a keyboard, and I can't use a keyboard without being able to see it.
If you can solve both of those, then I'll seriously consider acquiring one. Perhaps not version one, but version two for sure. Something closer to a traditional keyboard would suit me better, however; I'm not likely to be walking around while wearing this.
Many of the target users are probably perfect touch typists.
But according to the product comparison the SimulaVR also has handtracking. I wonder if it'd be possible to track hands and keyboard accurately enough for those who are not perfect touch typists.
But according to the product comparison the SimulaVR also has handtracking. I wonder if it'd be possible to track hands and keyboard accurately enough for those who are not perfect touch typists.
The Quest 2 can do it with two specific models of keyboards (Logitech K830 and more recently Apple Magic Keyboard), so it should't be outside of the realm possibility.
SimulaVR has a "webcam view" that allows you to see your mouse and keyboard through passthrough video:
https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula#mouse--keyboard-view
https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula#mouse--keyboard-view
Yep, and with our headset we'll have full background replacement. We've tested it internally with two off the shelf cameras but it's not public yet.
Our headset supports an "AR Mode", which which allows you to see keys on your keyboard when it's placed in front of you.[1][2] (This is the main reason why our headset has AR Mode: not every is 100% proficient at touch-typing, and being able to see your keyboard is key for productivity if you can't).
[1] Here's the snazzy demonstration of AR mode in our sales copy: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0558/4591/2646/files/Simul...
[2] Here's a more down to earth video of us testing AR mode last summer in our compositor: https://youtu.be/6H5-mdGpKZg Note this is just an early test with a single fish eye lens (grainy; distortion not corrected). Our actual AR mode is much higher quality than this. Expect discussion of the technical details in our upcoming blog posts/updates.
[1] Here's the snazzy demonstration of AR mode in our sales copy: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0558/4591/2646/files/Simul...
[2] Here's a more down to earth video of us testing AR mode last summer in our compositor: https://youtu.be/6H5-mdGpKZg Note this is just an early test with a single fish eye lens (grainy; distortion not corrected). Our actual AR mode is much higher quality than this. Expect discussion of the technical details in our upcoming blog posts/updates.
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As for keyboard, I'd probably take an ultimate hacking keyboard or a Lenovo with integrated trackpoint. I have no desire to leave the home row.
I would highly discourage including a keyboard or mouse. If you are already spending $2700 on a VR computer I suspect you already have a keyboard or mouse you prefer or want to invest in a setup of your choice. No point in creating eWaste to drive home the point that this is a computer. And to that point you say that they need to emphasize that it is a computer and not just another headset (to the point of saying included a keyboard and mouse), but then bring up their use of terminal windows in their marketing (I agree though they should show other things as you suggested)?
Two of your points in your comment seem to be lambasting the fact SimulaVR aren't advertising towards the lowest common denominator of people buying tech. It is a $2700 computer and display. Who exactly, that would ever actually purchase this device, would not understand it is a computer (or that it can come with one if you aren't doing stand alone), or not realize that if it can be used in a coffee shop it can be used in a home office?
Two of your points in your comment seem to be lambasting the fact SimulaVR aren't advertising towards the lowest common denominator of people buying tech. It is a $2700 computer and display. Who exactly, that would ever actually purchase this device, would not understand it is a computer (or that it can come with one if you aren't doing stand alone), or not realize that if it can be used in a coffee shop it can be used in a home office?
A lot of PC manufacturers like Dell will show a mouse and keyboard in the product photos[0], but then leave an option at checkout to remove them from the purchase.
It'd probably be good to not just show it with a mouse and keyboard, but to show it in a home context, not in use, put away for the day. How does this device fit into your life?
[0] hell, IDK if they still do, I haven't bought from a major manufacturer in a long time.
It'd probably be good to not just show it with a mouse and keyboard, but to show it in a home context, not in use, put away for the day. How does this device fit into your life?
[0] hell, IDK if they still do, I haven't bought from a major manufacturer in a long time.
> I would highly discourage including a keyboard or mouse.
Counterpoint: I thought this was just another headset with the distinguishing feature that it could read text well, and I've been sitting in their Discord server for over a month.
Look at Nintendo's ROB. They needed that thing to escape the stigma of their predecessors. Home video game consoles until that point sucked, so they had to market themselves as a toy instead so people wouldn't automatically dismiss them.
But I agree with your point about waste. Maybe it's simply a matter of marketing.
Counterpoint: I thought this was just another headset with the distinguishing feature that it could read text well, and I've been sitting in their Discord server for over a month.
Look at Nintendo's ROB. They needed that thing to escape the stigma of their predecessors. Home video game consoles until that point sucked, so they had to market themselves as a toy instead so people wouldn't automatically dismiss them.
But I agree with your point about waste. Maybe it's simply a matter of marketing.
Yeah, I've been trying to find solutions with George as to how to highlight we're a VR computer better. Getting the messaging right is tricky.
Maybe a user story sequence? Show someone watching their email inbox, a chat of some kind, replying to an email, and maybe making some change to a document referenced in the email. Maybe have someone 'size up' a photo for hanging on a wall. Apple's keynotes are good references for this stuff.
I just want to point out that on second bluff, I'm much more optimistic about this than I was earlier in the thread. I'll be watching for weight characteristics. I almost wonder about an option to embed it in something more like a motorcycle helmet. The idea being that might feel more solid and not to actually have a motorcycle helmet. Plus Daft Punk made it cool.
I just want to point out that on second bluff, I'm much more optimistic about this than I was earlier in the thread. I'll be watching for weight characteristics. I almost wonder about an option to embed it in something more like a motorcycle helmet. The idea being that might feel more solid and not to actually have a motorcycle helmet. Plus Daft Punk made it cool.
Daft punk face mask would be preferable, if I'm separating myself from reality anyway I might as well go full cyborg. Plus a moto-helmet has the suggestion that I can see out of it, where as these things always look like blindfolds. Even with camera pass-through I wouldn't wear this in public because I think people would assume I couldn't see them. Maybe a pair of camera lenses could be positioned where my eyes would be, a la Ghost in the Shell's Batou, so that even when I'm not using pass-through, people assume I can see them.
As for the other half of my face, I really don't ever need to be taking a sip of coffee while wearing a mask, a good use of full face helmet might be to have a camera pointed at my mouth for expression-capture, transfer my mouth to my avatar.
Anyway, great product, at least I know with linux I can add whatever hardware I want on top of this.
As for the other half of my face, I really don't ever need to be taking a sip of coffee while wearing a mask, a good use of full face helmet might be to have a camera pointed at my mouth for expression-capture, transfer my mouth to my avatar.
Anyway, great product, at least I know with linux I can add whatever hardware I want on top of this.
I was a little incredulous until I saw pancake mode. It reminds me of the old promise of the droid docks, that I could have all my apps open on a desktop PC, then "undock" and have all the same apps open on-the-go. Something about an old Dell LCD makes me think "o its a real computer" :P
> * Is there some useful interactions between 3D visualization and high-quality small-text rendering? If you have good VR/3D developer stories, then this can work.*
Yes, I want to see a CAD application where the user is looking at a complex CAD model in 3D, with labeled parts and everything, and usefully interacting with it. Typing commands, grabbing and turning the model, etc.
Yes, I want to see a CAD application where the user is looking at a complex CAD model in 3D, with labeled parts and everything, and usefully interacting with it. Typing commands, grabbing and turning the model, etc.
That would be so, so cool. I don't see this happening for a while unless a CAD vendor works with us but definitely where I see this tech.
How about 3D modeling with something like Blender?
BTW, the key to making stuff like that work well isn't just the UI affordances, but latency. Head tracking, room tracking, video passthrough for AR, all highly sensitive to latency. You can see the effect even in the GIFs on your landing page: in the AR mode the floating windows slightly lag the external view when the user moves their head.
Latency is what makes many people nauseous (ie. Cybersickness), but as far as I know no one actually benchmarks it for VR or AR headsets or for VR games, and headset hardware makers keep chasing higher resolutions (and secondarily framerate). Everyone is familiar with resolution vs. framerate vs. scene complexity (eg. "polygon counts") tradeoffs, but latency figures in as well and no one makes the effort to benchmark it (and let's face it, it's pretty hard, even in a research context) despite the huge impact it has on consumer acceptance. It's the elephant in the room everyone ignores except to blame someone else (software people blame the hardware, hardware folks blame the software, etc.).
Now, you're trying to make this a general productivity environment, so resolution is more important than usual to be able to read text without eyestrain, but for immersive gaming the available hardware has been more than good enough resolution wise for at least two Moore's Law cycles, possibly as many as five. The same can't be said for latency.
And there are much better uses of the GPU than just pumping out more pixels and complexity, particularly for AR use cases: object detection and tracking, pose estimation, object masking and removal/replacement, etc., and all of those are even more sensitive to latency than resolution compared to VR.
BTW, the key to making stuff like that work well isn't just the UI affordances, but latency. Head tracking, room tracking, video passthrough for AR, all highly sensitive to latency. You can see the effect even in the GIFs on your landing page: in the AR mode the floating windows slightly lag the external view when the user moves their head.
Latency is what makes many people nauseous (ie. Cybersickness), but as far as I know no one actually benchmarks it for VR or AR headsets or for VR games, and headset hardware makers keep chasing higher resolutions (and secondarily framerate). Everyone is familiar with resolution vs. framerate vs. scene complexity (eg. "polygon counts") tradeoffs, but latency figures in as well and no one makes the effort to benchmark it (and let's face it, it's pretty hard, even in a research context) despite the huge impact it has on consumer acceptance. It's the elephant in the room everyone ignores except to blame someone else (software people blame the hardware, hardware folks blame the software, etc.).
Now, you're trying to make this a general productivity environment, so resolution is more important than usual to be able to read text without eyestrain, but for immersive gaming the available hardware has been more than good enough resolution wise for at least two Moore's Law cycles, possibly as many as five. The same can't be said for latency.
And there are much better uses of the GPU than just pumping out more pixels and complexity, particularly for AR use cases: object detection and tracking, pose estimation, object masking and removal/replacement, etc., and all of those are even more sensitive to latency than resolution compared to VR.
We do have a lot of considerations for latency. Early footage is well, early.
Head/room tracking is being worked on, but I'll keep people updated with results.
AR latency... we're basically just brute forcing it. >90 FPS cameras, dump the data uncompressed via PCIe Gen3 x4 onto the compute pack, display it. Still working on the hardware verification but it should be doable within a frame assuming there isn't a hidden bottleneck somewhere.
Head/room tracking is being worked on, but I'll keep people updated with results.
AR latency... we're basically just brute forcing it. >90 FPS cameras, dump the data uncompressed via PCIe Gen3 x4 onto the compute pack, display it. Still working on the hardware verification but it should be doable within a frame assuming there isn't a hidden bottleneck somewhere.
There are tools for latency measurement for VR applications. Before FB acquired them, Oculus had one for $99. But jitter's just as bad as latency. That usually required some thinking to work on.
It might be lower hanging fruit to start with something like a VR renderer for openscad - it would be amazing to be able to type openscad code into a floating window and see a live updating floating render of the object I am building next to that. I suppose the bounding box of the output could be considered a 3D vr window of sorts.
Might check out Gravity Sketch: https://www.gravitysketch.com/
At first brush it appears more like these other VR "sketching" apps than a serious CAD tool, but it's actually pretty feature rich in that direction and continuing to evolve.
At first brush it appears more like these other VR "sketching" apps than a serious CAD tool, but it's actually pretty feature rich in that direction and continuing to evolve.
The Blender / FreeCAD communities might bite.
Was thinking what GitHub does to preview STLs. I'm assuming WebGL with glTF exported... Meaning am ElectronJS app in transparent mode code render a 3D thing like a part to be 3D printed.
Yes! Some desktop 'widgets' that show 3d content from various forms.
I wouldn't go as far as fsv[1] but some basic in-environment vis is called for.
[1] http://fsv.sourceforge.net/screenshots/
I wouldn't go as far as fsv[1] but some basic in-environment vis is called for.
[1] http://fsv.sourceforge.net/screenshots/
Yeah, sure, definitely FreeCAD. OpenCASCADE failing to make fillets, blocking the main thread with long operations and crashing the entire application is exactly what I always wanted to see in VR!
The coffee shop video is the sole reason I purchased it. Not that I'd really ever use it that way, but I want to live in a future where I could in principle do so without shame LOL
Actually I'd like to see AR mode when outdoors!
Can't use these headsets outdoors because the sun will destroy the screens (powerful magnifying lens aiming right at the screen). In fact, you have to be careful indoors as well.
These devices need a simple shutter that covers the displays automatically when it's not pressed against your face. This would solve the problem.
These devices need a simple shutter that covers the displays automatically when it's not pressed against your face. This would solve the problem.
You shouldn't take it off outdoors with the lenses pointing at the sun, no. Ambient light will be fine.
Also don't stare at the sun with the cameras. Although if you do, they'll be replaceable.
Also don't stare at the sun with the cameras. Although if you do, they'll be replaceable.
The natural motion for removing any VR headset is to lift it off your face and then hold it via the head strap which points the display directly upwards. Also, when placing the headset down for charging it's also natural to hang it up on a hook of some sort (via the head strap) which also has the side effect of pointing the lenses upwards. If someone does this near a window the sun can destroy it in no time.
Huh. That's not how I take them off, but I'm also mindful about optics damage.
Some kind of shutter is a bit hard to do due to space constraints, but I'll see what can be done.
Some kind of shutter is a bit hard to do due to space constraints, but I'll see what can be done.
Just release the 3D models for the frame of the thing and hold a contest for the 3D printing community to make one
Heck, with those details I could probably make something that works well enough.
Heck, with those details I could probably make something that works well enough.
+1 to this. Every time I take my vr headset off, I hold it by the back of the headband until I put it down somewhere.
> they'll be replaceable
Nice! Are other parts of the device repairable / replaceable as well?
Nice! Are other parts of the device repairable / replaceable as well?
Basically everything is modular. It's a huge design boon to be able to split things up and it comes naturally with reparability and to some extent upgradability.
About the only thing I would be careful about replacing (but we'll still be offering) is the optical assembly, as dust will be pretty annoying if it gets in. We're planning a clean room just to handle the dust-sensitive parts of our equipment (image sensors, displays/optics, etc)
About the only thing I would be careful about replacing (but we'll still be offering) is the optical assembly, as dust will be pretty annoying if it gets in. We're planning a clean room just to handle the dust-sensitive parts of our equipment (image sensors, displays/optics, etc)
Agree with dropping the coffee shop video. It borders on cringe. Why? The giant box of a headset isn’t socially acceptable. It looks intimidating to use, alien, and heavy. IMO this is currently one of the largest challenges to XR. tbf this is a problem for all current and past generation VR headsets. I believe this is the main reason Apple is opting for thin goggles instead of a form factor that more closely resembles other VR headsets.
The coffee shop video is cringe for me. Conversely, sitting an a virtual cafe with others using their Simula One (like BigScreen and Immersed) is a draw for me. My brief experience with BigScreen (without the movies) was of being in a shard space, similar to a coffee shop vibe. People's avatars, in front of their *visible* monitors, with voice, and of course the avatars motions tied to the HMD made it feel very much like I wasn't alone.
I see people have issues with the price tag, and while it is by no mean cheap, since it's actually a full blown computer AND a VR headset all in one, it is somewhat justified. The computer specs match my Framework laptop and the headset is, on paper, on par or better than other high-end VR headsets (and a miles ahead of my Meta Quest 2 and other consumer-grade VR headsets).
We pushed hard on our specs; I appreciate you noticing =] We actually compared the Simula One to the Framework Professional Edition in an earlier post, so the comparison is apt.[1] We have also created a $100 discount code ("DISCOUNT_HN") for this thread to help out somewhat on the price.[2]
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29923197 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30441454
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29923197 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30441454
It feels strange to be used as a reference point, but we’ll take it! Like other folks on this thread, I’m interested in seeing what you do with Simula One. I agree that it is the sort of ambitious though likely niche product that is worth testing the wide open future of VR with.
I like the concept of the Framework, and we're similarly big on being open/repairable/etc.
The standalone tethered headset is $2k — that makes it a significantly higher price than other options, especially given the risk involved.
It has amazing specs, but $2k for a tethered headset is way too high. It needs to be below $1000 for the tethered, bring your own compute option.
It has amazing specs, but $2k for a tethered headset is way too high. It needs to be below $1000 for the tethered, bring your own compute option.
Well people say the Index is expensive at $1K (full kit) this thing is 2-5x that. Will be interesting.
Also this scene of him being outside typing while using VR ha. It'll be interesting, the shot using it in a coffee shop too hmm.
The keyboard is Durgod Fusion btw (non-split one).
Also this scene of him being outside typing while using VR ha. It'll be interesting, the shot using it in a coffee shop too hmm.
The keyboard is Durgod Fusion btw (non-split one).
> Well people say the Index is expensive at $1K (full kit) this thing is 2-5x that. Will be interesting.
Isn't the Index just the headset? This is a headset + attached computer, different type of beast.
Isn't the Index just the headset? This is a headset + attached computer, different type of beast.
Yeah they have a tethered version too, 2x cost. I'm saying if people think the Index is expensive for what it is/was, this thing is way up there. But hey not everyone drives Lamborghinis but that's still a market.
Anyway I preordered one (half up front), I'm down, will practice on my Index in the mean time. I am curious about their choice of Godot in case I ever get to the level to mess with rendering. Would be nice to have curved panels, maybe that snap together vs. floating square ones. Excuse to learn a new language I guess.
Anyway I preordered one (half up front), I'm down, will practice on my Index in the mean time. I am curious about their choice of Godot in case I ever get to the level to mess with rendering. Would be nice to have curved panels, maybe that snap together vs. floating square ones. Excuse to learn a new language I guess.
Godot was mostly chosen for expedience and hackability. With e.g. StardustXR existing now, it's not impossible we'll do something new down the line.
Curved panels etc are doable. We primarily use Haskell as a "scripting" language for at least some type safety, but it should be fairly manageable to get into.
Curved panels etc are doable. We primarily use Haskell as a "scripting" language for at least some type safety, but it should be fairly manageable to get into.
Sweet. Yeah I am not talking from experience at all. Just think it would be C# or Unity or something cliche like that. Anyway I'm going to try out your Simula repo on my Index.
So many people are complaining about price of a first gen enthusiast device.
You know the Apple II (~1500 in 1977) is 5k in modern dollars, and sold over 5m units, right?
If the device solves a genuine productivity problem for you, 3k is cheap.
You know the Apple II (~1500 in 1977) is 5k in modern dollars, and sold over 5m units, right?
If the device solves a genuine productivity problem for you, 3k is cheap.
A first-gen enthusiast device with first-class Linux support, even.
> If the device solves a genuine productivity problem for you, 3k is cheap.
Exactly! I expect my productivity to go up significantly when I upgrade from a few 2D monitors to a 3D virtual space.
Also, "if you're not paying, you're the product" still applies when you pay $300 for a device like the Quest that slurps your data straight to Zuckerberg as fast as humanly possible.
> If the device solves a genuine productivity problem for you, 3k is cheap.
Exactly! I expect my productivity to go up significantly when I upgrade from a few 2D monitors to a 3D virtual space.
Also, "if you're not paying, you're the product" still applies when you pay $300 for a device like the Quest that slurps your data straight to Zuckerberg as fast as humanly possible.
> A first-gen enthusiast device with first-class Linux support, even.
This is speculative. We have yet to see how well Simula OS will do and how well it's supported by the company.
This is speculative. We have yet to see how well Simula OS will do and how well it's supported by the company.
Even in the 90's, computers were like a couple thousand dollars.
> You know the Apple II (~1500 in 1977) is 5k in modern dollars, and sold over 5m units, right?
I think the difference might be in the price point of all your competitors, or the increased marginal utility of your product.
Using this headset over any of the existing ones, what benefit do I get? The software is already open, so I can use it with any headset. My sole concern is getting the absolute best headset.
I think the difference might be in the price point of all your competitors, or the increased marginal utility of your product.
Using this headset over any of the existing ones, what benefit do I get? The software is already open, so I can use it with any headset. My sole concern is getting the absolute best headset.
Per the OP:
> While existing headsets are optimized for gaming, ours is optimized for productivity: it features bleeding edge high-resolution displays, has a detachable compute pack with specs comparable to a premium office laptop (x86 architecture), and runs a VR specialized Linux distro optimized for clear text.
Sure, if you can find a standalone headset with comparable resolution, CPU, and OS, use that!
> While existing headsets are optimized for gaming, ours is optimized for productivity: it features bleeding edge high-resolution displays, has a detachable compute pack with specs comparable to a premium office laptop (x86 architecture), and runs a VR specialized Linux distro optimized for clear text.
Sure, if you can find a standalone headset with comparable resolution, CPU, and OS, use that!
> If the device solves a genuine productivity problem for you, 3k is cheap.
I don't know why anyone would buy this contraption that costs more than a Oculus / Meta Quest or a HTC Vive and is targeted at consumers.
Like you said; it is a 'first gen' which usually means this is an instant don't buy. Even if you wait for it to be cheaper, the use-cases are already limited with the consumers getting frustrated and will just purchase an Oculus VR headset from Meta.
The next consumer product that will have a mass adoption like the iPhone, will certainly be AR glasses from either Apple, Google or Meta.
Definitely not VR headsets and contraptions like this one which that ship has already sailed.
I don't know why anyone would buy this contraption that costs more than a Oculus / Meta Quest or a HTC Vive and is targeted at consumers.
Like you said; it is a 'first gen' which usually means this is an instant don't buy. Even if you wait for it to be cheaper, the use-cases are already limited with the consumers getting frustrated and will just purchase an Oculus VR headset from Meta.
The next consumer product that will have a mass adoption like the iPhone, will certainly be AR glasses from either Apple, Google or Meta.
Definitely not VR headsets and contraptions like this one which that ship has already sailed.
So the Quest 2 sold over 12million headsets in the last year. And over the last few years VR has seen a growth rate of over 20% YOY. I always wonder if when people like you make a comment if you actually look at figures or just go with your gut because you don't like something. I'm guessing the latter. The mass adoption is happening right under your nose, an entire generation of US kids are growing up with VR right now because of the perfect storm of lack of consoles, a pandemic keeping them home and widely available cheap hardware from Meta.
> So the Quest 2 sold over 12million headsets in the last year. And over the last few years VR has seen a growth rate of over 20% YOY.
Right. So how on earth does this 'Simula One' stand a chance against the rest of the competition, especially when Apple, Sony, Microsoft plan on or are already competing against Meta?
Compared to the competition, price and adoption, the 'Simula One' is a first-gen obsolete contraption.
> I always wonder if when people like you make a comment if you actually look at figures or just go with your gut because you don't like something.
Then you are just as bad as I am. Pulling figures without sources and then saying 'actually look at figures' isn't evidence. Where is the source for the 12 Million and 20% YoY? Just Google it isn't evidence either.
Then this this also you:
> an entire generation of US kids are growing up with VR right now because of the perfect storm of lack of consoles, a pandemic keeping them home...
The US is not the world and people (and kids) simply won't stay in-doors forever, since lockdowns aren't forever. It's quite silly to think that kids would want to stay in-doors like they did in the pandemic to justify the 'need' for VR other than playing games in the metaverse.
For devices like Simula One, it's dead on arrival due to the mindshare of the Oculus / Meta Quest. If there was the next device to surpass the iPhone, it is simply AR glasses. Otherwise, why exactly is Google [0] Meta [1] trying to get there before Apple eventually does?
> ...and widely available cheap hardware from Meta.
Thank you for confirming that the 'Simula One' stands no chance at all against Meta Quest.
[0] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/30/google-acquires-north-augmen...
[1] https://www.roadtovr.com/project-nazare-ar-glasses-facebooks...
Right. So how on earth does this 'Simula One' stand a chance against the rest of the competition, especially when Apple, Sony, Microsoft plan on or are already competing against Meta?
Compared to the competition, price and adoption, the 'Simula One' is a first-gen obsolete contraption.
> I always wonder if when people like you make a comment if you actually look at figures or just go with your gut because you don't like something.
Then you are just as bad as I am. Pulling figures without sources and then saying 'actually look at figures' isn't evidence. Where is the source for the 12 Million and 20% YoY? Just Google it isn't evidence either.
Then this this also you:
> an entire generation of US kids are growing up with VR right now because of the perfect storm of lack of consoles, a pandemic keeping them home...
The US is not the world and people (and kids) simply won't stay in-doors forever, since lockdowns aren't forever. It's quite silly to think that kids would want to stay in-doors like they did in the pandemic to justify the 'need' for VR other than playing games in the metaverse.
For devices like Simula One, it's dead on arrival due to the mindshare of the Oculus / Meta Quest. If there was the next device to surpass the iPhone, it is simply AR glasses. Otherwise, why exactly is Google [0] Meta [1] trying to get there before Apple eventually does?
> ...and widely available cheap hardware from Meta.
Thank you for confirming that the 'Simula One' stands no chance at all against Meta Quest.
[0] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/30/google-acquires-north-augmen...
[1] https://www.roadtovr.com/project-nazare-ar-glasses-facebooks...
>For devices like Simula One, it's dead on arrival due to the mindshare of the Oculus / Meta Quest.
I don't understand why you (and other users here) compare this to Oculus. Oculus is a Redmi phone of VR. Yeah, people buy it, and most individuals (~70% of steam users) buy 1080 monitors.
Still, there is a considerable market for 6k Apple Displays or 4k monitors. And people still buy top-tier phones for ~1k USD when they can buy a model for 250-300 and get 90% features and performance (usually except camera) of a 1k device.
I got Oculus Quest and used a few other VR and still will consider Simula because it's a device for me, someone who buys 6k Apple Display, 64 GB ram laptops, and 3080Ti GPU. Someone who wants crisp fonts, high PPI, optimized DE for Linux system. Because I need it for my needs, and there are million people like me.
I don't understand why you (and other users here) compare this to Oculus. Oculus is a Redmi phone of VR. Yeah, people buy it, and most individuals (~70% of steam users) buy 1080 monitors.
Still, there is a considerable market for 6k Apple Displays or 4k monitors. And people still buy top-tier phones for ~1k USD when they can buy a model for 250-300 and get 90% features and performance (usually except camera) of a 1k device.
I got Oculus Quest and used a few other VR and still will consider Simula because it's a device for me, someone who buys 6k Apple Display, 64 GB ram laptops, and 3080Ti GPU. Someone who wants crisp fonts, high PPI, optimized DE for Linux system. Because I need it for my needs, and there are million people like me.
I don't think it would, but it doesn't have to because they're not targeting the same market which is pretty obvious. And that wasn't your initial argument either, your argument was a generalization against the whole of VR.
My whole initial argument is both towards the late to market and obsolete first-gen ‘Simula One’ against the crowded competition and predicting the next consumer product that will likely supersede the iPhone and it clearly isn’t VR headsets as I have explained and you have already admitted.
> your argument was a generalization against the whole of VR.
My generalization of VR is towards its limited market and use cases to special VR games or VR training. Other than that, what other uses cases exist for it?
Also, where are the sources to that 12 million and 20% year over year figures that you just brought up?
I think we both know how limited and niche VR headsets are towards games and VR training.
> your argument was a generalization against the whole of VR.
My generalization of VR is towards its limited market and use cases to special VR games or VR training. Other than that, what other uses cases exist for it?
Also, where are the sources to that 12 million and 20% year over year figures that you just brought up?
I think we both know how limited and niche VR headsets are towards games and VR training.
> you have already admitted.
I admitted that the Simula doesn't compete against the Quest, but they're not in competition with one another and they never were. So I'm not sure what you think you've gotten here, other than intentionally misinterpreting me in bad faith to fit a bad argument.
> Also, where are the sources to that 12 million and 20% year over year figures that you just brought up?
Here are some sources,
https://www.pcgamer.com/meta-quest-store-revenue-quadrupled-... https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/16/22785469/meta-oculus-que... https://www.protocol.com/vr-growth-forecast-pwc https://www.fortunebusinessinsights.com/industry-reports/vir...
Each one of them actually deeply exceeds my quoted growth number, both for hardware and software. The only one to note is it was 10million units back in November of last year based on statements from QUALCOMM, which from how you've been going so far, I'm going to assume you're going to interpret in the worst light possible.
VR is used by a lot of people for chatting, watching movies, fitness, some people work in it pretty regularly for development it's pretty varied and you'd know that if you actually knew anything about the space which is why I really can't take your arguments seriously.
You're so confidently negative without actually having used any of it, not a great look, but that's your choice I guess.
I admitted that the Simula doesn't compete against the Quest, but they're not in competition with one another and they never were. So I'm not sure what you think you've gotten here, other than intentionally misinterpreting me in bad faith to fit a bad argument.
> Also, where are the sources to that 12 million and 20% year over year figures that you just brought up?
Here are some sources,
https://www.pcgamer.com/meta-quest-store-revenue-quadrupled-... https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/16/22785469/meta-oculus-que... https://www.protocol.com/vr-growth-forecast-pwc https://www.fortunebusinessinsights.com/industry-reports/vir...
Each one of them actually deeply exceeds my quoted growth number, both for hardware and software. The only one to note is it was 10million units back in November of last year based on statements from QUALCOMM, which from how you've been going so far, I'm going to assume you're going to interpret in the worst light possible.
VR is used by a lot of people for chatting, watching movies, fitness, some people work in it pretty regularly for development it's pretty varied and you'd know that if you actually knew anything about the space which is why I really can't take your arguments seriously.
You're so confidently negative without actually having used any of it, not a great look, but that's your choice I guess.
> VR is used by a lot of people for chatting, watching movies, fitness, some people work in it pretty regularly for development...
So basically specialist VR apps and VR training. Who is going to run in the park with that contraption on their head or go to a restaurant with that? Even previously with the first-gen AR glasses, we had the Glassholes. Now we have a first-gen VR contraption that claims it can be used in public with AR. And it is even worse.
> I'm going to assume you're going to interpret in the worst light possible.
There is a reason why I said the Simula One is late to the market and is obsolete on price, form-factor and its target market against Meta Quest, HTC Vive, or even the expensive HoloLens 2. I don't see why anyone other than Linux VR developers / geeks spending thousands would want a first-gen contraption like that. A very very limited target niche market for the Simula One.
> It's pretty varied and you'd know that if you actually knew anything about the space which is why I really can't take your arguments seriously.
I can assure you that no one will take the adoption of VR beyond VR games or VR training seriously, or even as the next platform of computing like the PC and iPhone, unless it shrinks into the form of glasses. That will certainly come from either Meta, Apple or Google and certainly not from hobbyist gadgets like the Simula.
> You're so confidently negative without actually having used any of it, not a great look, but that's your choice I guess.
Given one of the sources you linked [0] and [1] [2] I am even more confident that AR glasses (or even XR only in the form of glasses) are the next mass adopted computing platform after the iPhone. Not the current VR headsets or even the Simula which is appeals to its limited market of Linux VR enthusiasts.
[0] https://twitter.com/anshelsag/status/1460631153564659716/pho...
[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/30/google-acquires-north-augmen...
[2] https://www.roadtovr.com/project-nazare-ar-glasses-facebooks...
So basically specialist VR apps and VR training. Who is going to run in the park with that contraption on their head or go to a restaurant with that? Even previously with the first-gen AR glasses, we had the Glassholes. Now we have a first-gen VR contraption that claims it can be used in public with AR. And it is even worse.
> I'm going to assume you're going to interpret in the worst light possible.
There is a reason why I said the Simula One is late to the market and is obsolete on price, form-factor and its target market against Meta Quest, HTC Vive, or even the expensive HoloLens 2. I don't see why anyone other than Linux VR developers / geeks spending thousands would want a first-gen contraption like that. A very very limited target niche market for the Simula One.
> It's pretty varied and you'd know that if you actually knew anything about the space which is why I really can't take your arguments seriously.
I can assure you that no one will take the adoption of VR beyond VR games or VR training seriously, or even as the next platform of computing like the PC and iPhone, unless it shrinks into the form of glasses. That will certainly come from either Meta, Apple or Google and certainly not from hobbyist gadgets like the Simula.
> You're so confidently negative without actually having used any of it, not a great look, but that's your choice I guess.
Given one of the sources you linked [0] and [1] [2] I am even more confident that AR glasses (or even XR only in the form of glasses) are the next mass adopted computing platform after the iPhone. Not the current VR headsets or even the Simula which is appeals to its limited market of Linux VR enthusiasts.
[0] https://twitter.com/anshelsag/status/1460631153564659716/pho...
[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/30/google-acquires-north-augmen...
[2] https://www.roadtovr.com/project-nazare-ar-glasses-facebooks...
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In my opinion it's more the contrast and the expectation.
I am waiting for something like the metaverse and I do realize that it will not happen as hoped.
I got 3D glasses in 2005 or so when I had a crt display and it was a fun novelty.
I watched 3D movies in the cinema and it's a nice novelty but I do prefer a brighter screen.
I watched 3D movie on a flat screen display and it was okay.
I got a HTC vive pro with wireless and valve index controllers and it's also a nice novelty so far.
VR is in my opinion a success if it becomes normal but no one really uses it day to day.
20 million devices? From a global company? In a market were 14 year old kids already own a 1000$ phone? Success I don't know.
People bought 3D televisions as well so that's that.
My personal expectation was that VR is going to be used for training people to drive, industriel training and lighthearted sports. But as something central like I imagined the metaverse or what ready player one proposed? We are far away from that.
That portable Linux VR headset will lay around at plenty of places of nerds having fun of it for a bit and then it becomes obsolete. An expensive toy.
I am waiting for something like the metaverse and I do realize that it will not happen as hoped.
I got 3D glasses in 2005 or so when I had a crt display and it was a fun novelty.
I watched 3D movies in the cinema and it's a nice novelty but I do prefer a brighter screen.
I watched 3D movie on a flat screen display and it was okay.
I got a HTC vive pro with wireless and valve index controllers and it's also a nice novelty so far.
VR is in my opinion a success if it becomes normal but no one really uses it day to day.
20 million devices? From a global company? In a market were 14 year old kids already own a 1000$ phone? Success I don't know.
People bought 3D televisions as well so that's that.
My personal expectation was that VR is going to be used for training people to drive, industriel training and lighthearted sports. But as something central like I imagined the metaverse or what ready player one proposed? We are far away from that.
That portable Linux VR headset will lay around at plenty of places of nerds having fun of it for a bit and then it becomes obsolete. An expensive toy.
I'll start by saying I don't want a metaverse and no one else I know with VR headsets do either. We really like them as media consumption devices and for gaming, chatting and working out. But I don't want to or need to live in the device and they don't either.
You have to look at the curve of adoption VS total number, the trajectory they're on. In only 3 years they've managed to grow to that number. If it continues they will be at console numbers in under 10 years. Which a quick Google has told me before is about 85-100 million consoles.
Gaming and media, fitness and social are massive multi 100s of billion dollar markets and I see that being the long term success of VR not this live your life in it type deal.
Also friendly reminder a lot of these cyberpunkesque films and shows are dystopic in nature it's not to be emulated it's to depict failings of society that led to those states. I love the aesthetic of cyberpunk as much as anyone else but the societies they live in are warnings to us, not desired outcomes.
You have to look at the curve of adoption VS total number, the trajectory they're on. In only 3 years they've managed to grow to that number. If it continues they will be at console numbers in under 10 years. Which a quick Google has told me before is about 85-100 million consoles.
Gaming and media, fitness and social are massive multi 100s of billion dollar markets and I see that being the long term success of VR not this live your life in it type deal.
Also friendly reminder a lot of these cyberpunkesque films and shows are dystopic in nature it's not to be emulated it's to depict failings of society that led to those states. I love the aesthetic of cyberpunk as much as anyone else but the societies they live in are warnings to us, not desired outcomes.
> VR is in my opinion a success if it becomes normal but no one really uses it day to day.
I think pretty much all the members of my family regularly play games in VR (on their own headsets).
> But as something central like I imagined the metaverse or what ready player one proposed?
We don’t actually want that. That movie was supposed to display something dystopian. Meta is something dystopian.
I think pretty much all the members of my family regularly play games in VR (on their own headsets).
> But as something central like I imagined the metaverse or what ready player one proposed?
We don’t actually want that. That movie was supposed to display something dystopian. Meta is something dystopian.
Heh. My personal take on Facebook's Metaverse[1] is that it jams the entire framing of VR computing through the prism of "social network", which causes all kinds of poor product focus and misaligned incentives.
With that said, I personally don't mind Meta selling Quest units at a loss. It's been a net good for the ecosystem (IMO), and has exposed a lot of people to VR who wouldn't be able to afford a headset otherwise. I just think their product direction & focus is otherwise shit.
[1] https://simulavr.com/blog/we-dont-want-the-metaverse/
With that said, I personally don't mind Meta selling Quest units at a loss. It's been a net good for the ecosystem (IMO), and has exposed a lot of people to VR who wouldn't be able to afford a headset otherwise. I just think their product direction & focus is otherwise shit.
[1] https://simulavr.com/blog/we-dont-want-the-metaverse/
It's mostly just a shitty version of VRChat with people you don't like.
I always wonder if when people like you make a
comment if you actually look at figures or just
go with your gut because you don't like something.
I'm guessing the latter.
Well since you cut out my actual argument and substantiation I guess you could see it that way. I tend to negg on top of making my arguments though.
I've been hearing people say "VR is dead, AR has killed it" for the last 10 years straight, all while not knowing anyone using AR past novelty apps, all while enjoying the biggest year for VR. Every. Single. Year.
I'm a bit torn, as on the one hand, I'm squarely in the target demo and appreciate the huge amount of work that has gone into the project, and the PPD is really exciting. (back in 2015 I actually started building my own VR workspace software https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNtZmCDyEyU with an Oculus DK2 but shelved it for other projects waiting for better HMD hardware that never arrived). But sadly, I fear that if I ordered a Simula, it might end up years late, half-baked, and sitting on the shelf like my LibreM 5 and many other open source hardware projects I've backed. (Also the ergonomics of the HMD really makes me a iffy on whether it can be worn comfortably for extended periods.)
I also think it's also somewhat bad timing, since HMD hardware releases are finally picking up. Panasonic's MeganeX, which uses 2560x2560 120Hz micro-OLEDs, is finally being released in the spring for <$1000 after being first shown 2 years ago (and there seem to be lots of similar micro-OLED HMDs in the pipeline from various Chinese manufacturers). Also, even though the PPD is much lower, there's stuff like the Lynx R1 coming out shortly that will also have full OpenXR support, is committed to privacy and staying independent, and has number of things that makes it more useful as a platform for all-day wear and hacking on: an ultra-thin flip-up form factor, 6DoF SLAM, UltraLeap hand tracking, eye tracking, and has already-working overlay AR (w/ 20ms camera-eye pipeline).
I also think it's also somewhat bad timing, since HMD hardware releases are finally picking up. Panasonic's MeganeX, which uses 2560x2560 120Hz micro-OLEDs, is finally being released in the spring for <$1000 after being first shown 2 years ago (and there seem to be lots of similar micro-OLED HMDs in the pipeline from various Chinese manufacturers). Also, even though the PPD is much lower, there's stuff like the Lynx R1 coming out shortly that will also have full OpenXR support, is committed to privacy and staying independent, and has number of things that makes it more useful as a platform for all-day wear and hacking on: an ultra-thin flip-up form factor, 6DoF SLAM, UltraLeap hand tracking, eye tracking, and has already-working overlay AR (w/ 20ms camera-eye pipeline).
That demo you linked to is incredibly advanced & impressive for 2015. Thanks for sharing.
Agreed there are definitely some cool headsets about to be released (both the Lynx and the MeganeX). I wish these projects well. Any successful VR headset (even gaming headsets) lift the whole industry and interest level up for everyone else. And it's also great for consumers, who get more choice.
The niche we're attempting to carve is 100% VR computing focused. When you preorder our headset, you're signing up to get something that "just works" out of the box specifically for this use case (without any further hacking required). We're also leaning as much as possible on premium specs, which we need to power the clearest and most readable text (which is super important for long working sessions).
Finally, I totally understand your concerns about backing a project that leads to a never-shipped product. We are committed to sending out weekly updates throughout the course of this project, and are aiming to have review units finished in a few months. Perhaps we can earn your trust over time, or after our first batch of headsets ship.
If you change your mind in the interim, you (or anyone else who reads this) can use the discount code "DISCOUNT_HN" to get $100 off today. We also have a partial deposit option ($1,499 now; $1,499 before the headset ships) which allows people to spread the cost of the headset over time. This allows you to reserve a headset now for lower than MSRP ($3,500), but not pay the full amount until you see more proof of our progress.
Agreed there are definitely some cool headsets about to be released (both the Lynx and the MeganeX). I wish these projects well. Any successful VR headset (even gaming headsets) lift the whole industry and interest level up for everyone else. And it's also great for consumers, who get more choice.
The niche we're attempting to carve is 100% VR computing focused. When you preorder our headset, you're signing up to get something that "just works" out of the box specifically for this use case (without any further hacking required). We're also leaning as much as possible on premium specs, which we need to power the clearest and most readable text (which is super important for long working sessions).
Finally, I totally understand your concerns about backing a project that leads to a never-shipped product. We are committed to sending out weekly updates throughout the course of this project, and are aiming to have review units finished in a few months. Perhaps we can earn your trust over time, or after our first batch of headsets ship.
If you change your mind in the interim, you (or anyone else who reads this) can use the discount code "DISCOUNT_HN" to get $100 off today. We also have a partial deposit option ($1,499 now; $1,499 before the headset ships) which allows people to spread the cost of the headset over time. This allows you to reserve a headset now for lower than MSRP ($3,500), but not pay the full amount until you see more proof of our progress.
We're aware of the micro OLEDs, but they're not able to provide the picture quality we desire (at least within a reasonable R&D budget). uOLEDs force pancake lenses, which have issues with transmission and ghost images.
The Lynx R1 definitely is attractive in its own way. We have all of those specs except for the thinness. We're planning for our AR latency to be sub-frame (<11ms exposure to display photon out), but it needs verification with actual hardware which takes a while.
The Lynx R1 definitely is attractive in its own way. We have all of those specs except for the thinness. We're planning for our AR latency to be sub-frame (<11ms exposure to display photon out), but it needs verification with actual hardware which takes a while.
> Panasonic's MeganeX, which uses 2560x2560 120Hz micro-OLEDs, is finally being released in the spring for <$1000
The FoV is probably going to be worse than current gen headsets (Index, Quest 1/2, etc).
The FoV is probably going to be worse than current gen headsets (Index, Quest 1/2, etc).
A lower FOV actually translates to better PPD. You can use a basic formula: sqrt(hRes^2+vRes^2)/FOV. So a 100 degree FOV would give you about 36PPD, but a 90 degree FOV would actually give you an even better 40PPD. 60PPD is Apple's target for a "Retina" display, although there's a strong argument that you need double that at least for line pairs. For computer work purposes, we really should only care about matching PPD of a monitor. 36PPD is about equivalent of a 27" FHD monitor from 2ft/60cm: https://qasimk.io/screen-ppd/ and is probably good enough to start on focusing on other aspects of your optical design.
For a bit more nuance, here's a nice article that talks about how rendering geometry maps to FOV https://risa2000.github.io/vrdocs/docs/hmd_fov_calculation.h... although notably this does not account for the distortion shaders used in modern HMD pipelines to correct both for geometry and chromatic aberrations. There can be more techniques for improved text rendering, like what Oculus does with their timewarp layers: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1942692682...
For those interested, here's some discussion focused on optimal text rendering in 3D engines: https://bgolus.medium.com/sharper-mipmapping-using-shader-ba...
In a previous thread, @kanetw was actually kind enough to chat in more detail about some of the Simula's optical specs: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29930547
For some basic references of different aspects of visual fidelity for HMDs, this old writeup by UC Davis professor/VR researcher Oliver Kreylos is a good place to start: http://doc-ok.org/?p=1414
If you're interested you can surf through his blog for lots of insights. Also, this doc is one I just found that does a good job covering a bunch of the optical issues with HMDs: http://almalence.com/doc/SPIE-11765-23-V3/Near-eye_display_o...
For a bit more nuance, here's a nice article that talks about how rendering geometry maps to FOV https://risa2000.github.io/vrdocs/docs/hmd_fov_calculation.h... although notably this does not account for the distortion shaders used in modern HMD pipelines to correct both for geometry and chromatic aberrations. There can be more techniques for improved text rendering, like what Oculus does with their timewarp layers: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1942692682...
For those interested, here's some discussion focused on optimal text rendering in 3D engines: https://bgolus.medium.com/sharper-mipmapping-using-shader-ba...
In a previous thread, @kanetw was actually kind enough to chat in more detail about some of the Simula's optical specs: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29930547
For some basic references of different aspects of visual fidelity for HMDs, this old writeup by UC Davis professor/VR researcher Oliver Kreylos is a good place to start: http://doc-ok.org/?p=1414
If you're interested you can surf through his blog for lots of insights. Also, this doc is one I just found that does a good job covering a bunch of the optical issues with HMDs: http://almalence.com/doc/SPIE-11765-23-V3/Near-eye_display_o...
The above formula only holds for diagonal FOV, which is higher than hFOV/vFOV.
The formula for e.g. PPD in the h-direction, assuming uniform pixel distribution, would be hPPD = hRes / hFOV. With a uniform distribution, 2448px at 100deg FOV would be 24.5.
We don't have uniform pixel distribution, as the human eye cannot resolve well where it can't gaze. So we magnify more wherever you can actually point your pupil at, and less towards the periphery. That way we retain eye-acuity while allowing us to "waste' less pixels where they aren't required.
We maintain >32 PPD within +- 15 degrees of eye rotation, which accounts for 86% of eye rotations.
The formula for e.g. PPD in the h-direction, assuming uniform pixel distribution, would be hPPD = hRes / hFOV. With a uniform distribution, 2448px at 100deg FOV would be 24.5.
We don't have uniform pixel distribution, as the human eye cannot resolve well where it can't gaze. So we magnify more wherever you can actually point your pupil at, and less towards the periphery. That way we retain eye-acuity while allowing us to "waste' less pixels where they aren't required.
We maintain >32 PPD within +- 15 degrees of eye rotation, which accounts for 86% of eye rotations.
Higher PPD is good, but with the lower FoV it's going to feel like you're looking at your computer screen through binoculars.
The MeganeX I believe is using the Kopin P95 optics. 95 degree diagonal FOV should be roughly similar to the CV1. Slightly less immersive than the latest headsets, but for virtual workspaces should still be fine. Remember, that the normal hFOV when looking at 32" display from 2ft away is 60 degrees (27" display is closer to 50 degrees). Due to center sharpness dropoff for most HMD optics, you will mostly be ignoring the edges anyway.
This is a really interesting project
I hope it succeeds and future iterations are either more affordable OR gains so much traction that its easy to justify the cost. At this price point I could only talk myself into it if the Simula was my primary computer which I think I'd have a hard time using it as such.
Anyway, I am probably one amongst many who are watching this space waiting for experience reports and emerging ecosystems from braver early adopters.
I hope it succeeds and future iterations are either more affordable OR gains so much traction that its easy to justify the cost. At this price point I could only talk myself into it if the Simula was my primary computer which I think I'd have a hard time using it as such.
Anyway, I am probably one amongst many who are watching this space waiting for experience reports and emerging ecosystems from braver early adopters.
Thanks for your support. Though our goal is for people to replace their PCs/Laptops with VR Computers as their primary computing device, we recognize this is a tall order and will require a lot of hard work and proof over time for people to see that they're actually better.
We're expecting review units to be available in a few months.
We're expecting review units to be available in a few months.
Good luck, I've dreamt about this as a kid.
> if the Simula was my primary computer
It basically includes a whole computer. I am curious if one can simply plug in a regular monitor somehow and use it that way. If so, it would be something of a hedge against it being a useless brick if the VR part doesn't work out. Compact computers are kind of fun for lots of other reasons.
It basically includes a whole computer. I am curious if one can simply plug in a regular monitor somehow and use it that way. If so, it would be something of a hedge against it being a useless brick if the VR part doesn't work out. Compact computers are kind of fun for lots of other reasons.
Yes, the compute pack has several DP outs and can be used without the headset.
It's horrible. It's beautiful. I would never use it. I want one.
I see a lot of comments on the pricing of this hardware. It's going to be more expensive (for the end user) to build a headset (and FOSS window manager) than a product like the quest. Meta has a suite of products bringing in capitol by selling user PII. Valve has a distribution platform to offset costs.
If you want to see a product that is open end to end and is not part of an ecosystem selling your information, then it has to be funded.
I realize most of the people reading this don't want a moral argument for spending $2k-$4k on a HMD, but thats what I am offering.
We should have multiple openXR compatible headsets to choose from, and specialized window managers that 'just work' in VR. Fund the FOSS projects you want to see in the world so others will follow.
If you want to see a product that is open end to end and is not part of an ecosystem selling your information, then it has to be funded.
I realize most of the people reading this don't want a moral argument for spending $2k-$4k on a HMD, but thats what I am offering.
We should have multiple openXR compatible headsets to choose from, and specialized window managers that 'just work' in VR. Fund the FOSS projects you want to see in the world so others will follow.
I've spent 2k just on a monitor.
I'm more surprised that the quest is so cheap, but then I remember exactly what you said: the quest is not the product, I am the product.
Then I remember why I don't use Meta products anymore.
I'm more surprised that the quest is so cheap, but then I remember exactly what you said: the quest is not the product, I am the product.
Then I remember why I don't use Meta products anymore.
It is strange that paying for being a product that is sold has become normalized. Then again slavery was common not long ago.
Agreed, it is a bit strange, but I do feel like people are slowly getting wise to the swindle.
Unfortunately, I think socioeconomic pressures are also pushing people to compromise in ways that are not in their best interest, even if they do get it. In other words, they'll get the 'cheap' product that invades their privacy, sells their data, and shows ads to them, because they don't have the money for a product they own (see: television market).
Unfortunately, I think socioeconomic pressures are also pushing people to compromise in ways that are not in their best interest, even if they do get it. In other words, they'll get the 'cheap' product that invades their privacy, sells their data, and shows ads to them, because they don't have the money for a product they own (see: television market).
That is right. Being shown a targeted advertisement is exactly the same as being forced to pick cotton in the fields by day under threat of life and limb. As a matter of fact, the real question is whether the slaves suffered even a fraction as much as I did browsing Instagram.
An argument could be made that even thinking about the slave trade is inconsiderate when billions are shown ads on Facebook properties today.
An argument could be made that even thinking about the slave trade is inconsiderate when billions are shown ads on Facebook properties today.
Nobody thinks that.
Yeah the Samsung G9 was a silly amount of money on release, and I bought one.
It’s not so much that you are the product in meta’s vr offerings, it’s that quest is a loss leader because the rest of meta is so profitable.
I wouldn't be so sure.
Meta forced Oculus users to transition to a Facebook login after they had already bought the device.
They are a surveillance company who collects, correlates and sells personal information. They aren't going to stop at the VR boundary and suddenly change their mission.
Meta forced Oculus users to transition to a Facebook login after they had already bought the device.
They are a surveillance company who collects, correlates and sells personal information. They aren't going to stop at the VR boundary and suddenly change their mission.
Absolutely. I think that proposition was incredibly clear back when they used to offer Oculus for Business, which was like $800-900? Now they don't even offer that.
Firstly what kind of monitor is that? Wtf?
Also the cliche of it’s not the product, you are is cute but played out. If you’re getting your bang for buck on it as a consumer (and I know I am), then moral arguments are useless. As with all things the market makes the ultimate decisions, not the individual.
Also the cliche of it’s not the product, you are is cute but played out. If you’re getting your bang for buck on it as a consumer (and I know I am), then moral arguments are useless. As with all things the market makes the ultimate decisions, not the individual.
> the cliche of it’s not the product, you are is cute but played out
Cute, cliche, and played out? If you dismiss it in three different ways are you magically correct?
It might be a losing battle in the face on increasing complacency and bad incentives, but it's not over no matter how many different ways you want to dismiss it.
Cute, cliche, and played out? If you dismiss it in three different ways are you magically correct?
It might be a losing battle in the face on increasing complacency and bad incentives, but it's not over no matter how many different ways you want to dismiss it.
https://rog.asus.com/us/monitors/32-to-34-inches/rog-swift-p...
I have one of these - a little overpriced but looks absolutely amazing.
I have one of these - a little overpriced but looks absolutely amazing.
I haven't spent $2000 but I spent $1500 for a 23" Apple Cinema Display in 2004 (adjust that for inflation!) and about that much for my current 3840x1600 ultrawide Acer.
>If you’re getting your bang for buck on it as a consumer (and I know I am), then moral arguments are useless. As with all things the market makes the ultimate decisions, not the individual.
You could use the same train of thought for Soylent Green.
You could use the same train of thought for Soylent Green.
But it doesn't matter. All of the reasons in the world for how expensive it is don't make a difference to the result: it's still too expensive.
Costs must go down before they'll see the kind of units moving they need to fund development.
Costs must go down before they'll see the kind of units moving they need to fund development.
For reference, our breakeven sales target is 892 headsets (or $2.4M in sales). We recently made a blog post outlining our unit cost model in more detail.[1] At the time, we were still planning on using Kickstarter, so the model has changed somewhat. We ultimately decided to host our own campaign to save on Kickstarter fees (passing down a $100 discount on headset prices).
Also: for an additional headset discount, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30441697
[1] https://simulavr.com/blog/kickstarter-pricing/
Also: for an additional headset discount, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30441697
[1] https://simulavr.com/blog/kickstarter-pricing/
Simula is working on a paradigm shift of computing. We're looking at the price and comparing it to buying a smartphone or gaming console. The Simula device doesn't aspire to be a secondary device. It wants to be a primary device, replacing your laptop.
The closest device in comparison to this one is not a Quest 2 or even a Valve Index. Those are both secondary devices that do not offer anything other than canned, theme-park-like experiences that sit completely aside the rest of your computer. The closest competing device is actually a HoloLens 2. HoloLens with Windows Holographic is the only device on the market that has support for a general purpose computing interface. And HoloLens 2s are still US$3500/ea.
Whether you agree a VR computer as a primary device is a good thing is a different issue.
The closest device in comparison to this one is not a Quest 2 or even a Valve Index. Those are both secondary devices that do not offer anything other than canned, theme-park-like experiences that sit completely aside the rest of your computer. The closest competing device is actually a HoloLens 2. HoloLens with Windows Holographic is the only device on the market that has support for a general purpose computing interface. And HoloLens 2s are still US$3500/ea.
Whether you agree a VR computer as a primary device is a good thing is a different issue.
Not really, their break even (and by that, I mean ideal bulk pricing of components) for units sold is under 1000 units.
The Simula one is not trying to sell 100k units. If you think thats the case, your expectations are wrong.
Re (software) development: Yes it will need funding, but it's there right now https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula and is agnostic/works with any openXR headset.
Re (software) development: Yes it will need funding, but it's there right now https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula and is agnostic/works with any openXR headset.
It is definitely too expensive for broad adoption, but maybe it doesn't need broad adoption?
I might buy one if I could find a way to experience it first.
I might buy one if I could find a way to experience it first.
We'll be able to have reviewable prototype units in a few months. Depending on how many critical components (displays, primarily) we have we might be able to set up some way to test it for non-reviewers.
Nice!
Based on your wording, seems like you are involved with the project?
If so, I love the idea you all are chasing.
As a software developer, I've often thought about how great it would be to be able to take my setup with me without having to compromise on display. The current generation HMD is obviously not the end-game everyone is looking for, but you all obviously get the paradigm.
Based on your wording, seems like you are involved with the project?
If so, I love the idea you all are chasing.
As a software developer, I've often thought about how great it would be to be able to take my setup with me without having to compromise on display. The current generation HMD is obviously not the end-game everyone is looking for, but you all obviously get the paradigm.
Yes, I'm the other co-founder (David)
I'd strongly suggest having a public demo day somewhere, with a note dropped on HN and maybe a couple of other target-rich environments. Even just camping outside of Coupa with a couple of headsets for a workday will get a couple hundred people to see the unit, and I suspect that you'll get better conversion for that effort than most other things you could attempt.
I'm super, super interested in this type of product, but it's about 4x outside of my casual toy budget. Based on experience with other VR and AR headsets I'm not comfortable putting down the money until I see the optics myself.
I'm super, super interested in this type of product, but it's about 4x outside of my casual toy budget. Based on experience with other VR and AR headsets I'm not comfortable putting down the money until I see the optics myself.
Same argument was made against Tesla. Now, nearly every auto maker has a more affordable electric car offering because of them.
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But it doesn't matter. All of the reasons in the world for how expensive it is don't make a difference to the result: it's still too expensive.
Costs must go down before they'll see the kind of units moving they need to fund development.
Seems to work for Apple. All they have to do is provide a superior product. That's the hard part.
Seems to work for Apple. All they have to do is provide a superior product. That's the hard part.
This is all true, but it also doesn't mean the that the current high price was the only possible approach. I see decisions made in the design that don't look great from cost-benefit standpoint. For example, this is being marketed mainly as a productivity tool. Wireless is certainly important for gaming when you are moving around in your environment, but people using this are primarily going to be in a stationary position either sitting or lying down. Why do they need the computer in the headset, which makes upgrading impossible, and for it to function completely wirelessly?
It seems like prioritizing the integrated computer and the untethered experience increases the cost for little benefit. This is especially true considering this thing likely won't have great battery life so operating completely wirelessly won't be possible for extended periods of time anyway. What would this device cost if the primary design objective was to create an open wired headset and the software to accompany it? Whatever that is, it would be a more attractive value proposition for me personally and therefore likely for other customers too.
It seems like prioritizing the integrated computer and the untethered experience increases the cost for little benefit. This is especially true considering this thing likely won't have great battery life so operating completely wirelessly won't be possible for extended periods of time anyway. What would this device cost if the primary design objective was to create an open wired headset and the software to accompany it? Whatever that is, it would be a more attractive value proposition for me personally and therefore likely for other customers too.
It doesn't make upgrading impossible. The compute pack is detachable, replacable, and can even function independently.
The benefit is pretty crucial: friction. If you have a tethered VR headset, the amount of work you need to do to set it up is insane. Especially with lower-level software like Simula.
The benefit is pretty crucial: friction. If you have a tethered VR headset, the amount of work you need to do to set it up is insane. Especially with lower-level software like Simula.
>It doesn't make upgrading impossible. The compute pack is... replacable
It is only replaceable and upgradable if this company sells these compute modules separately. There is no discussion I saw on that website that they are committing to do this and there is no guarantee they will be around to still sell you one in the future. Even if they do, you are locked into their ecosystem.
>The benefit is pretty crucial: friction. If you have a tethered VR headset, the amount of work you need to do to set it up is insane.
I have never used a VR device on Linux and maybe the work involved there would be truly "insane", but I have used a few on Windows and they are basically completely plug and play after you install the software. Although even with the work involved, this seems to be an enthusiast device aimed at techies. If these customers are looking for a frictionless experience, they probably wouldn't be daily driving a Linux machine in the first place.
It is only replaceable and upgradable if this company sells these compute modules separately. There is no discussion I saw on that website that they are committing to do this and there is no guarantee they will be around to still sell you one in the future. Even if they do, you are locked into their ecosystem.
>The benefit is pretty crucial: friction. If you have a tethered VR headset, the amount of work you need to do to set it up is insane.
I have never used a VR device on Linux and maybe the work involved there would be truly "insane", but I have used a few on Windows and they are basically completely plug and play after you install the software. Although even with the work involved, this seems to be an enthusiast device aimed at techies. If these customers are looking for a frictionless experience, they probably wouldn't be daily driving a Linux machine in the first place.
The modules are available from Intel. You're locked into some of our custom components, true. But this is miles better than anything else on the market.
The friction is both what we experienced as part of adoption and in my personal experience. Actual personal experiences may vary, of course.
The friction is both what we experienced as part of adoption and in my personal experience. Actual personal experiences may vary, of course.
>The modules are available from Intel. You're locked into some of our custom components, true. But this is miles better than anything else on the market.
I didn't realize you were involved in this company until I read your other comments. It is unclear what "You're locked into some of our custom components" means. Can a average techie, maybe someone who is comfortable opening their laptop to add RAM or new storage but wouldn't be comfortable making any other hardware changes, upgrade this with off the shelf parts? If the answer is yes, that should be in your marketing material. If the answer is no and you can't commit to selling these custom modules, then I stick to my original point.
I didn't realize you were involved in this company until I read your other comments. It is unclear what "You're locked into some of our custom components" means. Can a average techie, maybe someone who is comfortable opening their laptop to add RAM or new storage but wouldn't be comfortable making any other hardware changes, upgrade this with off the shelf parts? If the answer is yes, that should be in your marketing material. If the answer is no and you can't commit to selling these custom modules, then I stick to my original point.
I'm the other co-founder.
Yes, about as easy as opening a laptop. Unscrew some screws, lift a cover, install a new M.2 SSD or whatever. This is a picture of the "standard" assembly: https://i.kane.cx/NFIpf4 -- compute element slots into a connector, and there's the standard M.2 slot etc. Ours won't be too different, just a different form factor/connectors/additional features.
We're committing to selling all custom parts for at least a few years, but I can't give a hard number on how long. I'd say 4 years for sure.
Yes, about as easy as opening a laptop. Unscrew some screws, lift a cover, install a new M.2 SSD or whatever. This is a picture of the "standard" assembly: https://i.kane.cx/NFIpf4 -- compute element slots into a connector, and there's the standard M.2 slot etc. Ours won't be too different, just a different form factor/connectors/additional features.
We're committing to selling all custom parts for at least a few years, but I can't give a hard number on how long. I'd say 4 years for sure.
That is great. This should be stated on your website and not deep in the comments of a HN thread.
Yeah I get the concern. Following the project for the past 3 months one knows this information; but unless you're following development on discord/matrix or GitHub there's no way to know upgradability is a cornerstone of this project. Seeing 0 upgradability from Apple makes you leery of everyone.
I'll relay it to George. Thanks for the feedback, this kind of thing is always what falls through the cracks when you write sales copy.
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I think the freedom of an untethered headset is a big selling feature, at least for people who have used both tethered and untethered VR headsets. Since the Simula has full color passthrough, it should be easy to get up and make a cup of coffee while still wearing the headset. This is a big deal, taking a headset off and putting it back on again is annoying and focus breaking. It adds inertia that isn't there when using a non-wearable device. Minimizing the number of times you have to do that in a day is a win.
Untethered also allows you to be much more active, you can change seats or switch to standing as easily as if you were just holding a phone or tablet. It'd be nice to stretch my legs while I catch up on email or check a dashboard or flop on the couch while I watch a video or read an article.
If the battery life isn't great, you only need to be plugged in while your sitting at your desk and can easily unplug the cable when you want to get up. Hopefully they made the port easy to find while wearing the headset.
Untethered also allows you to be much more active, you can change seats or switch to standing as easily as if you were just holding a phone or tablet. It'd be nice to stretch my legs while I catch up on email or check a dashboard or flop on the couch while I watch a video or read an article.
If the battery life isn't great, you only need to be plugged in while your sitting at your desk and can easily unplug the cable when you want to get up. Hopefully they made the port easy to find while wearing the headset.
I don't have a problem with the price - I have a problem with being sure what I'd be getting for that money. If it was guaranteed to live up to the claims that are being made then it's in the ballpark of a good laptop, which I have no problem dropping all sorts of money on. This device has several potential problems though, that can render it completely unusable rather than a laptop that mostly works fine except for a nit or two:
- If it's too heavy/uncomfortable, you can't use it for long enough to warrant switching your compute medium to VR
- If the battery doesn't last long enough, then you're tethered to a wall outlet.
- If the display has distortion or artifacts, the eyestrain may render it unusable over time.
Some of which can be addressed by being able to try before you buy, and the rest will come out in the product reviews....but right now there are no product reviews, and signing up for a preorder at this price is taking a lot on faith.
I wish this team all the success in the world, but I'll probably wait for V2.
Some of which can be addressed by being able to try before you buy, and the rest will come out in the product reviews....but right now there are no product reviews, and signing up for a preorder at this price is taking a lot on faith.
I wish this team all the success in the world, but I'll probably wait for V2.
As someone who's used a Quest 2 for hours and hours with a heavy 3rd party head strap, over-the-ear headphones, and a battery pack strapped to my head I wouldn't worry about the weight too much. Even playing intense games where I had to move my head a lot it was never my neck/back that hurt--it was always my arms, haha.
That's really going to be the new RSI waiting to happen: Moving your hands in the air constantly. Try this: Pretend you're scrolling a really long web page a little bit at a time by holding your hand in the air (in front of your face) and doing a pinch with your fingers like you're grabbing something, lifting it up, then dropping it again. Do this motion very slowly (like you're reading) for like 10 minutes straight, over and over again. Now do the same thing, pretending you're looking up at a VR "window" or down at one. How do you think your arms will do after existing in this VR environment for hours at a time? :D
As long as we can scroll/navigate with the keyboard everything should be good though
That's really going to be the new RSI waiting to happen: Moving your hands in the air constantly. Try this: Pretend you're scrolling a really long web page a little bit at a time by holding your hand in the air (in front of your face) and doing a pinch with your fingers like you're grabbing something, lifting it up, then dropping it again. Do this motion very slowly (like you're reading) for like 10 minutes straight, over and over again. Now do the same thing, pretending you're looking up at a VR "window" or down at one. How do you think your arms will do after existing in this VR environment for hours at a time? :D
As long as we can scroll/navigate with the keyboard everything should be good though
There was a pretty strong pivot in the first hour of this being posted from everyone saying "that's to much money!" to other concerns. I felt compelled to respond. I don't think the 1000 of these or so that are made are for everyone, and I have no doubt a v2 will be better.
I'm just ready to give my money to someone who wants to build on openXR, has a vr window manager in development, and the chops to build ambitious hardware (on Linux).
I'm just ready to give my money to someone who wants to build on openXR, has a vr window manager in development, and the chops to build ambitious hardware (on Linux).
Yeah, unfortunately that's the annoying thing with preorder products. A fully integrated unit that would be representative of a final device will take a while for sure. My timeline is roughly 2 months for a reviewable VR-only unit, another 1-2 for VR+AR, and then integrate the compute pack.
Well said. If and when I can try it out before ordering, then I'll seriously consider it. I'm skeptical that a non-retinal display will ever been good enough for this kind of application.
I love how breathtakingly audacious this is, and I yearn to pre-order it. However, the same thing (the audacity) is what makes it nearly impossible to put down $3k on it before it really ships and real people really try it. Watch any of John Carmack's keynotes and see the just incredible level of detailed engineering refinement that has to go into solving even basic showstopper issues with VR headsets. That a small team with (from what I can tell) no production experience in this space can pull off creating something that won't fall victim to even one of these problems is a huge risk to take.
Having said that: if 6 months from now these are shipping and there are reviews of them that aren't terrible, I will be all in.
Good luck and thank you for being audacious. It is definitely something the field needs at this point!!!!
Having said that: if 6 months from now these are shipping and there are reviews of them that aren't terrible, I will be all in.
Good luck and thank you for being audacious. It is definitely something the field needs at this point!!!!
6 months from now Apple might have used WWDC to completely flip the table on VR/AR. Extremely interested to see what they have coming and I don't think it's going to be a way to manage traditional flat applications. This doesn't take away from how awesome Simula One looks but it's still an elephant in the room.
Yep, Apple's power is controlling their whole stack. I won't be surprised at all if the main draw for their XR headset is specialised integrations with Logic, Final Cut, or even their Office suite with new ways to interact with the interface in an AR environment and not just a 2d window projected into a 360° view (although that has its usefulness too). Apple tends to target creatives and prosumers in media production so I'm sure they have some special software in the works to complement their hardware.
This is the hardest problem to solve IMHO. I agree completely with you, but I also realize that people behaving like us could cause the product to fail, whereas otherwise it might succeeded if we'd got in and support it sooner.
After losing $500 on a bet on kickstarter though, I'm pretty weary. I don't want to get screwed again.
After losing $500 on a bet on kickstarter though, I'm pretty weary. I don't want to get screwed again.
I love that they fully embrace the "sitting at the coffee shop with my VR headset" aesthetic. I'm totally ready to support this vision and preorder one and let my freak flag fly at my local coffee shop!
I love that they fully embrace the "sitting at the coffee shop with my VR headset" aesthetic. I'm totally ready to support this vision and preorder one and let my freak flag fly at my local coffee shop!
To each, his own.
To me, the videos of the guy sitting in the park surrounded by trees and birds and nature, but completely blocking them out with his headset is dystopian. The world is wonderful, and if I have to work in it, I prefer to experience it, not pretend it doesn't exist. I say this as someone who regularly does my work on a laptop at a park.
Your vision of blocking out the existence of all of the fellow human beings at the coffee shop is, again to me, similarly dystopian. What's the point of even going? Why not lock yourself in a closet and program a pretend coffee shop to display in your goggles? Coffee is cheaper at home, too.
To each, his own.
To me, the videos of the guy sitting in the park surrounded by trees and birds and nature, but completely blocking them out with his headset is dystopian. The world is wonderful, and if I have to work in it, I prefer to experience it, not pretend it doesn't exist. I say this as someone who regularly does my work on a laptop at a park.
Your vision of blocking out the existence of all of the fellow human beings at the coffee shop is, again to me, similarly dystopian. What's the point of even going? Why not lock yourself in a closet and program a pretend coffee shop to display in your goggles? Coffee is cheaper at home, too.
It has AR capabilities, so he isn't "blocking the existence of all fellow thing-ama-boppers": You are just choosing to redefine "blocking the existence" to you own ends
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I will say that this is almost a compelling use case for the Founder's Edition outward-facing LED display... being able to set it to "Interrupt Me!" vs "Do Not Disturb" could be pretty useful for guiding the rest of the world on how to interact with you.
I also love the fact that the guy can't drink his coffee because it clashes with the headset. They should have had the actor order a drink with a straw.
I think he could (barely) drink it without a straw
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They do fully embrace it! I almost laughed at the comment:
> It can sometimes just feel weird working on sensitive or private things out in the open.
... all while the GIF next to it seems to have people glaring at the weird person with the VR headset on. Clever marketing hidden way down there. But who knows, maybe this is the future if Zuck throws billions at it.
> It can sometimes just feel weird working on sensitive or private things out in the open.
... all while the GIF next to it seems to have people glaring at the weird person with the VR headset on. Clever marketing hidden way down there. But who knows, maybe this is the future if Zuck throws billions at it.
They should also put a large dart board looking target on the headset.
Yean unfortunately I would not use this thing in public, I think it would just get stolen. I have a $2K camera (body only) that I'm afraid to use in public, seems silly I know.
But I think I'll try to use my Index more see if I can get into that idea of using VR for work.
I hope they figured out the blurry edges of text when you don't look at it just right, maybe that's a lower resolution display issue. I'm interested in the concept but it's definitely expensive for me at the current cost/mental mindset.
But I think I'll try to use my Index more see if I can get into that idea of using VR for work.
I hope they figured out the blurry edges of text when you don't look at it just right, maybe that's a lower resolution display issue. I'm interested in the concept but it's definitely expensive for me at the current cost/mental mindset.
The blurry edges is both an optics and display resolution issue, and also potentially a fit adjustment thing.
Our optics are currently in prototype production but we'll have the first units in a few weeks. Can post some through the lens shots then and check for any issues like that.
Our optics are currently in prototype production but we'll have the first units in a few weeks. Can post some through the lens shots then and check for any issues like that.
> Can post some through the lens shots then and check for any issues like that.
That sounds good. Good luck, I've subscribed to one of your guys YT channels to keep up.
edit: ehh I've lost $2.5K on crypto already, I'll just do the 50% pre-order for this.
That sounds good. Good luck, I've subscribed to one of your guys YT channels to keep up.
edit: ehh I've lost $2.5K on crypto already, I'll just do the 50% pre-order for this.
Very interesting! I'm sort of baffled at all the comments here talking about how the price is too high. I feel like you don't see those sort of comments when the new Apple MBP's are announced or whatever (and if I understand, this is a computer + monitor). Maybe it's just because the posting time is a bit early and so all those San Francisco developers dripping with cash aren't up yet.
One quick question I didn't see answered in the video or on the home page: what's the accommodation distance? Normally I think my eyes would get fatigued if it's too close, but if this is meant for working on office-type stuff, then I suppose you'd want it to be pretty close to a normal monitor distance away.
One quick question I didn't see answered in the video or on the home page: what's the accommodation distance? Normally I think my eyes would get fatigued if it's too close, but if this is meant for working on office-type stuff, then I suppose you'd want it to be pretty close to a normal monitor distance away.
In the region of 2 meters or so? Going off memory here, but something like that.
Hi George,
I'm definitely super interested in the space - to the extent that I've ordered recently received a competitor's product (the Varjo Aero) with the intent that would be used almost exclusively for productivity.
I have to be blunt, the going has been rough. The clarity of the display is more than up to the task of writing software all day. But, the Aero is a windows only product. There either isn't, or I haven't found a productive Windows PCVR windows manager comparable to either SimulaVR or Immersed. This lack of software was completely unexpected, and rather shocking to me.
After the Simula One is available on the market, I may well pivot to that device. But do you know of anyone who is taking on the effort of running SimulaVR on a windows host through any means? I don't mind rolling up my sleeves and doing work, but right now I don't see any path at all.
My current productivity is stuck to a projection of the desktop in a VR space, rather than a true window to window, application level VR window manager.
I'm definitely super interested in the space - to the extent that I've ordered recently received a competitor's product (the Varjo Aero) with the intent that would be used almost exclusively for productivity.
I have to be blunt, the going has been rough. The clarity of the display is more than up to the task of writing software all day. But, the Aero is a windows only product. There either isn't, or I haven't found a productive Windows PCVR windows manager comparable to either SimulaVR or Immersed. This lack of software was completely unexpected, and rather shocking to me.
After the Simula One is available on the market, I may well pivot to that device. But do you know of anyone who is taking on the effort of running SimulaVR on a windows host through any means? I don't mind rolling up my sleeves and doing work, but right now I don't see any path at all.
My current productivity is stuck to a projection of the desktop in a VR space, rather than a true window to window, application level VR window manager.
Thanks. This is exactly why we're making our own device--we even talked to Varjo, but no interest in Linux compat.
The problem with getting SimulaVR (Simula One will be compatible) to run is the lack of a WM API. Your best bet in that regard would be to get Microsoft to expose it or do WMR compatibility? It's a bit out of scope for us, we're focusing on OpenXR as #1 and SteamVR as fallback.
The problem with getting SimulaVR (Simula One will be compatible) to run is the lack of a WM API. Your best bet in that regard would be to get Microsoft to expose it or do WMR compatibility? It's a bit out of scope for us, we're focusing on OpenXR as #1 and SteamVR as fallback.
Somewhat echoing on kanetw/David's comments:
But yeah, there aren't many options that I'm aware of, even in Windows. This frankly astonishes me. Of course we're biased, and think that Linux is a better OS than Windows, but it seems like Microsoft is missing a major opportunity by not focusing harder on consumer VR computing.
The HoloLens was an amazing (early/experimental) product that was years ahead of its time. Rather than developing it (and other VR/AR computers) into consumer ready products, they seemed to have spent a bunch of time netting government VR contracts, and now focusing on Metaverse/social networking/gaming (like everyone else).
But yeah, there aren't many options that I'm aware of, even in Windows. This frankly astonishes me. Of course we're biased, and think that Linux is a better OS than Windows, but it seems like Microsoft is missing a major opportunity by not focusing harder on consumer VR computing.
The HoloLens was an amazing (early/experimental) product that was years ahead of its time. Rather than developing it (and other VR/AR computers) into consumer ready products, they seemed to have spent a bunch of time netting government VR contracts, and now focusing on Metaverse/social networking/gaming (like everyone else).
Super excited about this. Ordered one seconds after the shop went up. Being able to have greater than desktop levels of screen space with the same mobility as a laptop is such an attractive feature that I'm really looking forward to taking advantage of.
Thank you so much for your support! We feel an immense responsibility to deliver on our promise over the course of the year, and look forward to updating you on our progress through our weekly updates.
George, I'm very interested in your product, but I can only afford such a computer every few years. If I knew that I would receive it and it would work as advertised with reasonable warranty service, I would go ahead and pre-order. But as a startup in a notoriously fragile area, it isn't clear that you can deliver.
Can you give me any information that would increase my confidence, or is this something that you would instead recommend to someone who can afford a speculative bet?
Can you give me any information that would increase my confidence, or is this something that you would instead recommend to someone who can afford a speculative bet?
It's hard to make any guarantees when we're still this early, but I'd say assuming we survive this launch, we'll be able to honor our warranty. We're going to add a two-year warranty to the terms.
Of course, it's up to you whether you consider taking that initial risk acceptable.
Of course, it's up to you whether you consider taking that initial risk acceptable.
Looks like a task for pine64.
This is great. The project is great, GNU/Linux support is great. Hope this flies.
As for the price complaints, don't listen to them and price it as you see fit. It is your business, after all. If it costs too much for someone, they won't buy it, end pf story. Or they can get themselves some cheap(ish) metaware.
As for the price complaints, don't listen to them and price it as you see fit. It is your business, after all. If it costs too much for someone, they won't buy it, end pf story. Or they can get themselves some cheap(ish) metaware.
Thanks for your support. It is pretty cool to live in a society where people are free to "vote with their dollars" on projects that they like or don't like. If we had to convince 51% of the public (even the tech public) that this was a good idea in order to proceed, we would never be able to get off the ground. We just have to find a small number of people who agree it's cool (and can afford our high/early costs).
With that said, we understand that our product is very expensive and not affordable for everyone.[1] We've done as much as we can (within our constraints) to offer as low of a price as we can. This includes ditching Kickstarter to pass on an extra $100/unit of savings.[2] We hope to reduce costs with future iterations as we get more economies of scale and manufacturing know-how.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29923197
[2] https://simulavr.com/blog/launching-this-weekend/
With that said, we understand that our product is very expensive and not affordable for everyone.[1] We've done as much as we can (within our constraints) to offer as low of a price as we can. This includes ditching Kickstarter to pass on an extra $100/unit of savings.[2] We hope to reduce costs with future iterations as we get more economies of scale and manufacturing know-how.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29923197
[2] https://simulavr.com/blog/launching-this-weekend/
Awesome project! I'm a regular Quest 2 user, and also use it for work sometimes. For me, the biggest drawback of the Quest 2 is that it gets uncomfortable after a while. How do you address the ergonomics problem? Compared to a Quest 2, is it more comfortable?
What about collaboration? Is there something like shared workspaces planned? Or does it support a virtual cam?
When do you plan to ship it (maybe I missed it on your website?)
What about collaboration? Is there something like shared workspaces planned? Or does it support a virtual cam?
When do you plan to ship it (maybe I missed it on your website?)
We are aiming for a small batch of early units to ship in Q4 '22 (prioritizing Founders Edition units and early buyers). We aim to ship the bulk of our headsets in Q1 '23.
RE ergonomics and comfort: our headset is shooting for a split weight distribution between the front and the year, with good thermal management.
- Most of the components in the front of our headset are low-power, which helps against heat.
- Our detachable compute unit is in the back of the headset, with airflow going away from your head, so heat there shouldn't be too noticeable. (Contrast with the Quest, which, e.g. has everything in the front of the headset).
- We are looking into active cooling for the front of our headset regardless, in order to sustain long sessions and prevent facial sweat due to low circulation.
RE ergonomics and comfort: our headset is shooting for a split weight distribution between the front and the year, with good thermal management.
- Most of the components in the front of our headset are low-power, which helps against heat.
- Our detachable compute unit is in the back of the headset, with airflow going away from your head, so heat there shouldn't be too noticeable. (Contrast with the Quest, which, e.g. has everything in the front of the headset).
- We are looking into active cooling for the front of our headset regardless, in order to sustain long sessions and prevent facial sweat due to low circulation.
That sounds good, particularly the "split weight distribution" but never-the-less I'm concerned about the weight of your unit.
I've seen designs that split off the main battery pack for added flexibility and weight management. The Vive Flow has other issues that will probably hold it back, but the way they handle the battery is great.
I've seen designs that split off the main battery pack for added flexibility and weight management. The Vive Flow has other issues that will probably hold it back, but the way they handle the battery is great.
Thanks! Sounds great. I hope you'll be able to get enough presales.
BTW, I've found the BOBO VR M2 replacement strap for the Quest 2 to be a godsend for comfort. Just wish it had integrated headphones.
Is the intention, down the road, to sell new "compute packs" to allow for upgrades? Is the interface between the HMD and the compute sufficiently engineered and featureful to allow that to actually happen?
Similar to a camera system w/ interchangeable lenses, I'd be more apt to buy into this ecosystem if I knew that I could keep my HMD (w/ prescription inserts, perhaps custom-cut padding, etc) but change out the "compute" at a later time.
What's the battery replacement "story"? Can the unit run with an external power source without a functioning internal battery?
Similar to a camera system w/ interchangeable lenses, I'd be more apt to buy into this ecosystem if I knew that I could keep my HMD (w/ prescription inserts, perhaps custom-cut padding, etc) but change out the "compute" at a later time.
What's the battery replacement "story"? Can the unit run with an external power source without a functioning internal battery?
1. Correct. We want users to be able to buy a new HMD and plug in their old compute pack, or a new compute pack and plug it into their old HMD. The compute pack itself is also upgradable (we're based off Intel's NUC Compute Elements, so it's easy to upgrade to a new CPU for example).
Component-level upgradability in the HMD itself is more difficult, but not impossible. There's a solid amount of breathing room and things are modular, so you could e.g. replace the cameras or the display/optics assembly etc.
2. Battery replacement: It'll be able to run off a USB-PD power adapter and the battery, while internal, will be easily user-replacable.
Component-level upgradability in the HMD itself is more difficult, but not impossible. There's a solid amount of breathing room and things are modular, so you could e.g. replace the cameras or the display/optics assembly etc.
2. Battery replacement: It'll be able to run off a USB-PD power adapter and the battery, while internal, will be easily user-replacable.
Thanks for taking the time to reply!
Modularity for upgrades within the HMD itself is nice but it's not something I'd want to see sacrifices made for. Being able to repair the HDM, though, would be a concern to me. Something I physically "wear" on my person makes me think about long-haul durability and repairs. I'd love to have a minimum 5 year expected lifetime for the HMD (if not more like 10).
I'm excited about this platform. The cost seems reasonable to me but I don't think I'm a first generation adopter. I can imagine a second generation version will have a lot of fit-and-finish type updates. I'm hoping you get some traction in the market.
A VR-based workspace is something I've definitely dreamed about.
Modularity for upgrades within the HMD itself is nice but it's not something I'd want to see sacrifices made for. Being able to repair the HDM, though, would be a concern to me. Something I physically "wear" on my person makes me think about long-haul durability and repairs. I'd love to have a minimum 5 year expected lifetime for the HMD (if not more like 10).
I'm excited about this platform. The cost seems reasonable to me but I don't think I'm a first generation adopter. I can imagine a second generation version will have a lot of fit-and-finish type updates. I'm hoping you get some traction in the market.
A VR-based workspace is something I've definitely dreamed about.
Curious about this too, as well as if the pack is a single unit or a set of standard components that you can upgrade individually.
It's a set of standard components with some custom stuff:
* Intel NUC Compute Element (CPU+RAM)
* Custom heatsink/case
* Custom carrier board for the compute element
* M.2 NVMe SSD
* Battery is still ongoing, but it'll most likely be custom.
At least all custom components will be available from us down the line. Not sure down to which granularity (e.g. IC vendors might not like it if we sell ICs directly), but as granular as possible.
* Intel NUC Compute Element (CPU+RAM)
* Custom heatsink/case
* Custom carrier board for the compute element
* M.2 NVMe SSD
* Battery is still ongoing, but it'll most likely be custom.
At least all custom components will be available from us down the line. Not sure down to which granularity (e.g. IC vendors might not like it if we sell ICs directly), but as granular as possible.
Cool. Are there any plans in the future to ship non-Intel options?
Not for this version, but definitely for subsequent ones-- assuming we have the volumes to make AMD consider us.
Interesting. Thanks for the "Show"!
I'm still pretty new to VR and experimenting with a Quest 2 I recently bought out of curiosity really (the tiny price helps; as I'm not planning any extensive/real use, I don't feel like being very valuable product myself).
Anyway, you might want to consider adding your device to the Comparison on Wikipedia? [0]
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_virtual_reality_...
I'm still pretty new to VR and experimenting with a Quest 2 I recently bought out of curiosity really (the tiny price helps; as I'm not planning any extensive/real use, I don't feel like being very valuable product myself).
Anyway, you might want to consider adding your device to the Comparison on Wikipedia? [0]
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_virtual_reality_...
Oh hell yeah! I can't afford it, but I would love to be able to read text and just generally program within VR itself ( review units wink wink ).
I saw mention of Nix - what does steam / proton compatibility look like there?
Is there more info available on the compute unit's load profile during typical usage? Any idea whether it would be able to handle running a windows VM with hwaccel at the same time? With a Xe gpu it won't be playing games, but if the performance isn't vomit-inducing it could be a really interesting cross platform development... platform!
Have y'all seen VR-OS[1] or talked to Matthaeus[2] about bringing some of its user experience over? Your projects look like a match made in heaven to my eyes.
I see the founder's edition is listed as using a "LED Matrix Display" - what does the standard edition use? Is this OLED vs MiniLED?
Is hand tracking camera based? How intensive is that on the system? Did other solutions like LIDAR or mini radar[3] present issues?
I'm so freaking excited to see how this comes along, and I hope y'all last for a very, very long time.
1: https://youtube.com/c/MatthaeusKrenn
2: https://twitter.com/matthaeus
3: https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/sensor/radar-sensors...
I saw mention of Nix - what does steam / proton compatibility look like there?
Is there more info available on the compute unit's load profile during typical usage? Any idea whether it would be able to handle running a windows VM with hwaccel at the same time? With a Xe gpu it won't be playing games, but if the performance isn't vomit-inducing it could be a really interesting cross platform development... platform!
Have y'all seen VR-OS[1] or talked to Matthaeus[2] about bringing some of its user experience over? Your projects look like a match made in heaven to my eyes.
I see the founder's edition is listed as using a "LED Matrix Display" - what does the standard edition use? Is this OLED vs MiniLED?
Is hand tracking camera based? How intensive is that on the system? Did other solutions like LIDAR or mini radar[3] present issues?
I'm so freaking excited to see how this comes along, and I hope y'all last for a very, very long time.
1: https://youtube.com/c/MatthaeusKrenn
2: https://twitter.com/matthaeus
3: https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/sensor/radar-sensors...
The hand tracking is Ultraleap's assuming they actually deliver the Linux software at some point in the next few months. We're considering backups like using mmWave RADAR. It shouldn't be too intensive (at least not noticeable so far), but I'll double check.
The LED matrix display is for the outside. In both the founders' and regular, the internal display are Sharp 2448x2448 LCDs.
The regular edition will have a LED matrix display only if we sell enough units, basically.
I think I heard about VR-OS but haven't looked deeper; focused on the HW right now.
Steam works on Nix afaik (although George is the main Nix user); a Windows VM... should work?
The LED matrix display is for the outside. In both the founders' and regular, the internal display are Sharp 2448x2448 LCDs.
The regular edition will have a LED matrix display only if we sell enough units, basically.
I think I heard about VR-OS but haven't looked deeper; focused on the HW right now.
Steam works on Nix afaik (although George is the main Nix user); a Windows VM... should work?
Ahhh, nice! What's the purpose/utility of the matrix display? Can it be used as a light source? Or maybe a point grid display for pixel art style faces / messages?
> I think I heard about VR-OS but haven't looked deeper; focused on the HW right now.
That's actually precisely why I brought it up :D
> a Windows VM... should work?
Ah sorry, I edited my message above to be clearer as far as what I was actually asking ( load profiles and such ). I got so excited that I started brain dumping without a lot of context.
> I think I heard about VR-OS but haven't looked deeper; focused on the HW right now.
That's actually precisely why I brought it up :D
> a Windows VM... should work?
Ah sorry, I edited my message above to be clearer as far as what I was actually asking ( load profiles and such ). I got so excited that I started brain dumping without a lot of context.
I'm not affiliated at all with simula, but I personally haven't had issues with steam on nixos.
This is extremely well done and promising for the future of mass adoption for VR. Congrats!
I still have a Rift S and I'm not in the linux universe, but this is very very interesting.
The gif with the guy keeping the device on while being handed his coffee made me cringe. AR mode why not, but not at the expense of actual human interactions!
That gif is crying out to become a meme...
We were discussing a way to flip up the headset a while ago. I'm not sure if we have the resources to put it in right now, but it would be cool.
Everything about that gif is a lie. There is no way you will be able to drink comfortably from a coffee cup with that headset on (just like its not comfortable to do so with an oculus). I like how the clip cuts just at the point where he would bang the cup against the headset.
But really its the lack of disdain on all the other people's faces that makes it painfully unrealistic.
But really its the lack of disdain on all the other people's faces that makes it painfully unrealistic.
It is possible to drink in VR, you just have to get the motion right. But it is something I'd do with a beer rather than a hot coffee.
Looks like a very interesting prospect for a laptop replacement. One small question I haven't seen answered here is if you can plug in an external display, or how you plan to handle web conferences. Most orgs I've worked for like you to have a webcam on, and see others. I'm not sure how that would practically work if they see a webcam of someone with their headset on, would make for a pretty akward meeting.
Comparable services like ImmersedVR have a virtual webcam that projects a picture of you as an avatar, including moving your mouth when speaking etc. It's pretty out there and I suspect I would be too worried about looking hiliarously silly while saying something serious to ever use it in earnest. But that is the kind of direction things are going, with some offerings now actually mapping a texture map of your face onto the avatar and animating that.
We have several external DP ports via USB-C. Web conferences... hm. Difficult to have some form of webcam with the headset on, but maybe there's a good way we'll discover down the line.
I don't see myself ever buying one until you figure that out. I'm willing to bet you even take video calls in the making of this headset talking with different people. It's such a crucial piece in this remote work world.
I haven't turned my camera on in months, but I get your point.
Wow. How is it so cheap? Xerox Alto was way more expensive in inflation adjusted usd.
I'd be interested to see some real hand tracking and passthrough. How warped is the passthrough video and what is the hand tracking FOV? In my experience a lot of these headsets forget I'll want to interact with things not directly in the center of the screen.
Text comparison image is kind of annoying. More zoomed in and more favorable angle for the good side. Why isn't this a pixel perfect comparison?
Text comparison image is kind of annoying. More zoomed in and more favorable angle for the good side. Why isn't this a pixel perfect comparison?
Holy shit, this is fucking cool, guys. I would love one. I might just buy one. It’s just the sticker shock that’s holding me back but this is fresh tech so I can understand the price point. Congrats on releasing!
By the way, I think I found the AR interactions sort of strange. I think most people will have some sort of trouble talking to an unresponsive face (the problem with the eyes covered is that they’re so expressive in people).
Since I ride a motorcycle as my primary transport, I sometimes just leave my helmet on so I can walk up to my office without needing to switch to a mask. I find that people find it harder to talk to me unless I compensate hard with gestures and full body expressions.
The upshot of this whole thing was that I was wondering if even the most mild form of expressing something, like say a 64x24 LED display on the front headplate that lit up in eye shapes to express friendliness would help. Or perhaps it can’t be helped; and we just have to do the same thing we do where we take earbuds out to say “I’m paying attention”.
I’m sure you guys considered all this. Very curious to see what you thought about.
By the way, I think I found the AR interactions sort of strange. I think most people will have some sort of trouble talking to an unresponsive face (the problem with the eyes covered is that they’re so expressive in people).
Since I ride a motorcycle as my primary transport, I sometimes just leave my helmet on so I can walk up to my office without needing to switch to a mask. I find that people find it harder to talk to me unless I compensate hard with gestures and full body expressions.
The upshot of this whole thing was that I was wondering if even the most mild form of expressing something, like say a 64x24 LED display on the front headplate that lit up in eye shapes to express friendliness would help. Or perhaps it can’t be helped; and we just have to do the same thing we do where we take earbuds out to say “I’m paying attention”.
I’m sure you guys considered all this. Very curious to see what you thought about.
Oh, one more thing. This thing is close to the getup the Utopians have in Too Like The Lightning and I’ve always wanted that. God, I am so close to buying it.
We have a LED display baseline in the founders edition, and it might trickle down into the base edition if we have enough sales. Definitely something we thought about in terms of expressiveness.
...does the video of the guy in the coffee shop remind anyone else of Neil Stephenson's description of 'gargoyles' in Snow Crash?
Your site doesn't mention the weight or the battery life.
I guess the real answer is in the dog-food. Does your team use VCRs to develop it?
I guess the real answer is in the dog-food. Does your team use VCRs to develop it?
The software side does; there's videos of George working on Simula in Simula. Trickier for the EE/ME side as it's all Windows.
RE weight: we're targeting 800g (balanced evenly between front headset/rear compute pack).[1] This shouldn't be more straining than a Valve Index.
RE battery: our target is 3 hrs (for reference: the Quest has a 2-3 hour battery life).
Here's the link David was referring to: https://youtu.be/FWLuwG91HnI. It shows me dog-fooding Simula's software on the HTC Vive.
[1] This is still a preliminary number, which might change as we make tradeoffs in battery life vs. thermal solution vs. weight.
RE battery: our target is 3 hrs (for reference: the Quest has a 2-3 hour battery life).
Here's the link David was referring to: https://youtu.be/FWLuwG91HnI. It shows me dog-fooding Simula's software on the HTC Vive.
[1] This is still a preliminary number, which might change as we make tradeoffs in battery life vs. thermal solution vs. weight.
The Quest doesn't have a 2-3 hour battery life if you're doing anything past staring at the welcome lobby. A bit over an hour for most applications is standard. Source: I am VP Eng of ForeVR Games, we make games for the Quest
What about heat?
If I'm wearing an entire computer on my head, I would have thought it would get pretty hot, especially if I do CPU intensive work?
If I'm wearing an entire computer on my head, I would have thought it would get pretty hot, especially if I do CPU intensive work?
It gets toasty but we're including this in the thermal solution-- compute pack on the back of your head separate from the rest of the headset, airflow going away from your head, maybe even additional insulation if there's too much conductive heat transfer through the padding.
I'm curious about the typing experience. Is the Simula One able to bring the keyboard into the virtual environment or do you need to rely on touch typing? I know Meta partnered with Logitech on a special keyboard (K830) to try and solve for this. How are you thinking about it?
Our VRC supports an "AR Mode" via two front-facing RGB cameras, which allows you to see your keyboard. There's a snazzy demonstration of it our main sales video.
Here's a more down to earth video of us testing it last summer in our compositor: https://youtu.be/6H5-mdGpKZg Note this is just an early test with a single fish eye lens (grainy; distortion not corrected). Our actual AR mode is much higher quality than this.
Here's a more down to earth video of us testing it last summer in our compositor: https://youtu.be/6H5-mdGpKZg Note this is just an early test with a single fish eye lens (grainy; distortion not corrected). Our actual AR mode is much higher quality than this.
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This is the coolest way I've seen to have my mind focused on work 24/7 even while I'm laying down resting. If my employer gives me one of those I'll quit on the spot but I want to buy one (secretly) to try it, damn.
Glad you're intrigued =] Supine computing is massively underrated, but often requires expensive desks or time-intensive DIY setups (that aren't portable).[1] VR computing opens this up as one of its additional use cases.
[1] https://mgsloan.com/posts/supine-computing/
[1] https://mgsloan.com/posts/supine-computing/
Curious about VR resolution in general. How much resolution is necessary to be very close to "perceived" human eye resolution? Are we close to getting this over the next few years?
What I am speaking of here is say in motion picture we get some movie quality using 24 fps and you get some hyper realism after about 30fps. Given combination of resolution and fps, are we close to point of VR world being indistinguishable quality with reality?
What I am speaking of here is say in motion picture we get some movie quality using 24 fps and you get some hyper realism after about 30fps. Given combination of resolution and fps, are we close to point of VR world being indistinguishable quality with reality?
It's indistinguishable from reality at 60 PPD (pixels-per-degree) in the foveal region. We're at 35.
Varjo has >60 PPD by having a high-res display for the foveal region and another for the periphery.
It's doable with our approach to optics (increased magnification in the foveal region) with... about 4k x 4k?
Varjo has >60 PPD by having a high-res display for the foveal region and another for the periphery.
It's doable with our approach to optics (increased magnification in the foveal region) with... about 4k x 4k?
To me this is a near-certain failure in waiting, and here's why:
+ Limited information, bad comparisons (that "simulated" text rendering image is atrocious, where are the actual pulled from device and pulled from the OS images)
+ Very vague presentation, zero background on team members. Who are you? What have you engineered? What have you shipped?
+ Godot dependency does not inspire confidence, this is an opensource game engine geared for homebrew and indie developers. One would expect you'd need a lot more from the graphical foundation (latency, performance) since you're trying to do something that's never been done to a satisfactory degree before.
+ Totally subjective, but my spider sense is going crazy. The overall impression I get is that of a project driven by amateurs. If you didn't have some actual code on GitHub, I'd totally see this as a scam.
Good luck but given how many projects with orders of magnitude better technical teams have crashed and burned, I won't be jumping on this ship. 3000$ is a lot to ask and you'd need to put a lot more on the "can they pull it off?" balancing scales than wishful thinking.
+ Limited information, bad comparisons (that "simulated" text rendering image is atrocious, where are the actual pulled from device and pulled from the OS images)
+ Very vague presentation, zero background on team members. Who are you? What have you engineered? What have you shipped?
+ Godot dependency does not inspire confidence, this is an opensource game engine geared for homebrew and indie developers. One would expect you'd need a lot more from the graphical foundation (latency, performance) since you're trying to do something that's never been done to a satisfactory degree before.
+ Totally subjective, but my spider sense is going crazy. The overall impression I get is that of a project driven by amateurs. If you didn't have some actual code on GitHub, I'd totally see this as a scam.
Good luck but given how many projects with orders of magnitude better technical teams have crashed and burned, I won't be jumping on this ship. 3000$ is a lot to ask and you'd need to put a lot more on the "can they pull it off?" balancing scales than wishful thinking.
Godot has gotten a great deal of polish recently and there are those who think it makes a really good foundation for almost any kind of interactive application.
I've been blasé about VR/AR since FB bought Oculus (well, since VRML et. al. flopped, really.) This is the first project that I've gotten excited about. Like, "shut up and take my money!" excited. (Folks complaining about the price: C'mon!? $3K-$4K for a high-end workstation is de rigueur and it's for work so it's tax deductible.)
I've been following Simula for awhile and I'm super happy to see the first pre-orders! You're doing some amazing work!
Interesting, I don't know how I feel about replacing desktops/laptops with VR but it's been around 5 years since I've been in VR. Recently, I finished reading "Dawn of a New Everything" by Jaron Lanier, one of the pioneers of VR that brought the first commercial headset to market in the early 80s at VPL. In that era, the hardware wasn't nearly powerful to maintain any kind of fidelity (I think this was before even graphics cards were a thing) and the VR sets themselves cost ~$70000, but some of the things he mentions doing are still absent today.
Phenotropic software, as I first encountered in [0], could be conceived of as maximum encapsulation in VR, where instead of writing code one interfaces with virtual objects, or builds objects to do so, etc. In the book he claims they were developing their software this way in the 80s, but there aren't any surviving examples. In any case I think it's a fascinating research direction. At the very least VR should lead us away from the teletype based interfaces we work in today.
Alongside headsets, VPL was known for the Data Glove, a peripheral which I feel is lacking in the modern VR ecosystem. Using a QWERTY keyboard in VR is almost some cruel joke, and the modern "do it all in ML" ethos can't account for haptics. I don't know who, but someone is going to come up with the next great human interface device for VR. Perhaps it will even be tongue oriented, which Lanier points out is one of the most controllable muscles.
Anyways, I'm excited for the Simula One, though it's well beyond my price point. We definitely need more open hardware that can be built on, especially if it's an all-in-one product like the Quest. Good luck!
[0] https://www.edge.org/conversation/jaron_lanier-why-gordian-s...
Phenotropic software, as I first encountered in [0], could be conceived of as maximum encapsulation in VR, where instead of writing code one interfaces with virtual objects, or builds objects to do so, etc. In the book he claims they were developing their software this way in the 80s, but there aren't any surviving examples. In any case I think it's a fascinating research direction. At the very least VR should lead us away from the teletype based interfaces we work in today.
Alongside headsets, VPL was known for the Data Glove, a peripheral which I feel is lacking in the modern VR ecosystem. Using a QWERTY keyboard in VR is almost some cruel joke, and the modern "do it all in ML" ethos can't account for haptics. I don't know who, but someone is going to come up with the next great human interface device for VR. Perhaps it will even be tongue oriented, which Lanier points out is one of the most controllable muscles.
Anyways, I'm excited for the Simula One, though it's well beyond my price point. We definitely need more open hardware that can be built on, especially if it's an all-in-one product like the Quest. Good luck!
[0] https://www.edge.org/conversation/jaron_lanier-why-gordian-s...
> "do it all in ML" ethos can't account for haptics
Side note: Voidstar Labs on YT was able to make this glove that had gesture tracking, compressed the ML model and fit into a Teensy. So maybe a light weight set of gloves that can track a qwerty-based typing on any surface or midair could be something (without visual tracking).
Side note: Voidstar Labs on YT was able to make this glove that had gesture tracking, compressed the ML model and fit into a Teensy. So maybe a light weight set of gloves that can track a qwerty-based typing on any surface or midair could be something (without visual tracking).
I love the idea to be able to work in many places while keeping a good posture!
On the pictures, it looks like there is no pointing device. Is the pointing done by eye tracking? How do you click on things? How do you deal with "focus follow mouse"? For example I often look at one window while typing in another.
On the pictures, it looks like there is no pointing device. Is the pointing done by eye tracking? How do you click on things? How do you deal with "focus follow mouse"? For example I often look at one window while typing in another.
Yes, Simula allows for you to retain full control of window management with only a keyboard; mouse and hand gestures are not necessarily needed, though will be supported also.
In order to do this, we make use forward eye gaze, which you can use to move mouse cursors (and also to move windows around). Customizable keyboard shortcuts can be configured to resize/shrink/expand/zoom in/zoom out/push in/push away windows. Default keyboard shortcuts are explained in our GitHub repo (https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula).
As a demonstration, here's an old demo of me using eye gaze to manipulate windows: https://youtu.be/rm72Qmi8Bik
RE "focus follow mouse", Simula is currently set so that the "actively gazed at window" is the one that receives all inputs. We have found this to be pretty resilient almost all use cases, but as you said there are scenarios where you want to lock focus on a window while typing on another. We should add a keyboard shortcut to do this (would be very easy to implement).
Thanks for your interest BTW. The posture/freedom of movement part is one of my favorite things about VR computing. I love to work on things while "supine".[1] It allows you to get way more time spent on a task without the constraint of physical/postural fatigue limiting you.
[1] As demonstrated in this cool blog series I found: https://mgsloan.com/posts/supine-computing/
In order to do this, we make use forward eye gaze, which you can use to move mouse cursors (and also to move windows around). Customizable keyboard shortcuts can be configured to resize/shrink/expand/zoom in/zoom out/push in/push away windows. Default keyboard shortcuts are explained in our GitHub repo (https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula).
As a demonstration, here's an old demo of me using eye gaze to manipulate windows: https://youtu.be/rm72Qmi8Bik
RE "focus follow mouse", Simula is currently set so that the "actively gazed at window" is the one that receives all inputs. We have found this to be pretty resilient almost all use cases, but as you said there are scenarios where you want to lock focus on a window while typing on another. We should add a keyboard shortcut to do this (would be very easy to implement).
Thanks for your interest BTW. The posture/freedom of movement part is one of my favorite things about VR computing. I love to work on things while "supine".[1] It allows you to get way more time spent on a task without the constraint of physical/postural fatigue limiting you.
[1] As demonstrated in this cool blog series I found: https://mgsloan.com/posts/supine-computing/
I don't know how it works with their headset but with the Quest 2 hand tracking (which is handled via four cheap IR cameras) you just make a pinch motion with your fingers to "click" or click-and-drag: https://support.oculus.com/articles/headsets-and-accessories...
I assume that doing a right-click would be a pinch-and-hold sort of situation or maybe you could just use the left hand for that sort of thing.
I assume that doing a right-click would be a pinch-and-hold sort of situation or maybe you could just use the left hand for that sort of thing.
I have been keeping an eye on SimulaOS for sometime and I am glad that they finally have a real hardware!
>From Iron Man to The Minority Report, our Sci-Fi has been promising us for decades a future of always-on spatial computing and omnipresent screens. This is the Future we deserve.
Assuming that this is serious and not parody, then you have a very different vision of a utopian future than I do.
Assuming that this is serious and not parody, then you have a very different vision of a utopian future than I do.
It's serious (not parody), though I can understand in retrospect why that might be off-putting, and I should probably word the paragraph better. I sometimes watch Sci-Fi movies and focus too much on the technology (forgetting that the entire plot covers some terrible dystopian theme, lol).
I'm personally a fan of "Definite Optimism" views of the future.[1] Western culture used to portray technology really positively in Sci-Fi dramas (e.g. Star Trek), and then sometime around the 1970s, our culture flipped to portraying technology mostly under a dystopian point of view.
[1] https://simulavr.com/blog/vr-and-definite-optimism/
I'm personally a fan of "Definite Optimism" views of the future.[1] Western culture used to portray technology really positively in Sci-Fi dramas (e.g. Star Trek), and then sometime around the 1970s, our culture flipped to portraying technology mostly under a dystopian point of view.
[1] https://simulavr.com/blog/vr-and-definite-optimism/
Sorry, I don't understand how strapping some screens very close to our eyes will bring us back to the halcyon days of pre-1970 (which were absolutely dominated by the discovery of cheap energy in the form of oil and coal, and in the case of the US, the technological boost of fighting a war without the downsides of it being on its own soil). It sounds like what you are pining for is the time when we reaped maximal benefits of the Industrial Revolution but before we realised the repercussions.
It sounds more like he’s pining for futuristic UIs.
In addition to what was linked by the OP, Simula One VR was discussed 10 days ago here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30318094
> "with a VR computer you can change positions, sit up, lean back, stand, lie down, or even walk while you compute."
You don't necessarily need a VR computer for this. I've created a subreddit to explore this topic: https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMobileComputers/
> "with a VR computer you can change positions, sit up, lean back, stand, lie down, or even walk while you compute."
You don't necessarily need a VR computer for this. I've created a subreddit to explore this topic: https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMobileComputers/
Amazing work! I preordered one and am very much looking forward to trying it out.
Echoing what David (kanetw) already said, but: super honored to have you as one of our preorder backers. If you have any questions/feedback about your headset or our project, please don't hesitate to reach out.
Thank you! It was pretty exciting seeing your name on the order list.
I guess it comes with the territory of selling a product that eventually you see a name that you recognize :)
I guess it comes with the territory of selling a product that eventually you see a name that you recognize :)
I find the device intriguing, indeed, but I'm not terribly interested in a custom distro. Based on the fact that your existing code is open-source, is it safe to assume I can just bring my own Linux distribution?
Correct, although you'll need to make sure the login/boot process works without an external display.
If this is the future of work and productivity - I'm ready to opt out.
Price is okay. As a developer anything that can help with my day to day work is worth investing in. This device could potentially replace the need for high end ergonomic chairs and standing desks.
I think this is really cool, however I view VR headsets like monitors. I want them light, cool, and relocatable. I would imagine it would be cheaper to have this as two units. The headset, and "the box". The box does all the fun stuff and sends it wirelessly to the headset. Use a hardware compressor/decompress and a wifi 6e chip.
Really that's all I want, a headset that is comfy, stays cool, great lenses, and can be streamed to. My quest 2 can do this but it is not comfy, cool, and has god ray problems.
Really that's all I want, a headset that is comfy, stays cool, great lenses, and can be streamed to. My quest 2 can do this but it is not comfy, cool, and has god ray problems.
Isn't the reason why this is typically not done that VR giving a good experience is very low-latency-dependent, and it's very hard to make wireless connections have an ultra-low latency?
Yeah, pretty much. I think you can mitigate it a bit with clever tricks, but it's a lot of extra effort we'd rather not deal with this early on.
Also, bandwidth is the big blocker. Compression adds latency and reduces quality, and the amount of data we're pushing is really high (27Gbps uncompressed)
Also, bandwidth is the big blocker. Compression adds latency and reduces quality, and the amount of data we're pushing is really high (27Gbps uncompressed)
Name collision with an existing and useful tool: https://www.nongnu.org/simulavr/
Casual project follower here: I really want to use this device for remoting into other machines, so I can use my work computer via Simula - does the native Simula OS allow for this?
It's just Linux and runs normal Linux applications, so yes. If you just use e.g. a VNC client your work machine's display would be in one window, but if you can find remote desktop software that displays remote windows as local windows I'd imagine that would work fine too with Simula.
(I seem to recall Citrix can do this, though I'm not sure if there are any FOSS/less enterprise-y options that do the same.)
EDIT: Actually I think Xpra does this? Not sure if it'll run on Wayland, or if X11 apps work in Simula via XWayland. If so though, that might work.
(I seem to recall Citrix can do this, though I'm not sure if there are any FOSS/less enterprise-y options that do the same.)
EDIT: Actually I think Xpra does this? Not sure if it'll run on Wayland, or if X11 apps work in Simula via XWayland. If so though, that might work.
Xpra might be able to do it.
You can do that with any computer with pikvm and tinypilot
https://tinypilotkvm.com/ https://pikvm.org/
Sure, you can use Parsec or something, but you'll only get an Immersed-style "virtual desktop". Having full separate window transmission would be more difficult/impossible for non-Linux targets.
That's great to know - thanks!
I would be tempted by this if I could try out SimulaVR first using my HP Reverb G2 HMD. It has great resolution, but I don't think there is a Linux driver that I guess would be the pre-requisite? I know a lot of people into VR for flight sims and driving, that spend $2000+ for high resolution VR experiences, so that demographic could be a good cross-over with this sort of productivity set-up - as long as they can try something like the window manager on their own device first?
Some support for WMR headsets is available in https://github.com/OpenHMD/OpenHMD but without 6DoF / inside-out controller tracking so far.
Is it really comfortable to wear for extended periods of time? I’m a little behind on VR tech. I have an HTC Vive (1st gen), which has a third strap to support the weight. Does it really work okay without that? I would imagine the combined weight of the computer and the headset to be substantially higher than my HTC Vive. It has to be supported by something – which hopefully isn’t my nose or ears!
(Also, what is the weight?)
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Kudos for using Shopify without a shit-ton of third-party stuff I regularly see on other shops!
(Also, what is the weight?)
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Kudos for using Shopify without a shit-ton of third-party stuff I regularly see on other shops!
Also, I generally try to limit third party stuff because it's just super annoying. Never mind that I use uMatrix and having to enable 20 different hosts makes me cranky.
About the only third party thing we have is an invoicing app I installed temporarily.
About the only third party thing we have is an invoicing app I installed temporarily.
This looks amazing, but I've always been put off VR by the bulkiness of the headset - I've got to wonder how it can be worn for long periods, and what that might do to my neck. Plus there's a risk of nausea and headaches, which would be pretty shitty if I dropped a couple of grand on a headset!
Anyway, how realistic is it for VR headsets to be miniaturised, so they more resemble a pair of glasses? Or does physics mean that will never be possible?
Anyway, how realistic is it for VR headsets to be miniaturised, so they more resemble a pair of glasses? Or does physics mean that will never be possible?
You can go a fair bit smaller, but the primary size driver is the optics. Pancake lenses, which combine refraction with reflection, allow the depth to be much smaller while having similar optical power. However they cause image artifacts and have really poor light transmission, so it takes a good amount of R&D to get them good enough. A traditional refractive system, especially for a high-fidelity device, is a better choice for now than optimizing for size. That can come later.
I've tried very hard to get into working in VR using Oculus 2 and Immersed but the biggest dealbreaker for me was that texts that were not at the center of my view were blurred. This meant I had to rotate my head a lot more. No more glancing sideways at the other window in my IDE. I just ended up getting a 32 inch 4k monitor instead.
I suspect this issue would remain even with better specs. The moment this issue is fixed, I'll gladly throw in 5k.
I suspect this issue would remain even with better specs. The moment this issue is fixed, I'll gladly throw in 5k.
I'll post a through the lens image in a few weeks but this is equivalent to a 1080p monitor two feet away anywhere where you can direct your gaze. (Slight dropoff towards the edges but still over 30 PPD and 20um RMS spot size)
That is exciting news! Is there a twitter account or blog that I can follow? (I'm assuming you are working on Simula One)
I've been following this project via the mailing list for a few months now. I'm genuinely hoping it's a success! Good luck to the Simula team!
I badly want this to succeed.
I don't care much about the Facebook device, but this is something I could have bought if I wasn't still a bit cash strapped.
That said, I'm expecting a nice raise (or a significantly better paid job) this year so it might not be too far away, even with more than three kids in the house.
At least I wish you 1. spectacular success 2. that you stay sane and true and don't sell out to Facebook or any other monster
I don't care much about the Facebook device, but this is something I could have bought if I wasn't still a bit cash strapped.
That said, I'm expecting a nice raise (or a significantly better paid job) this year so it might not be too far away, even with more than three kids in the house.
At least I wish you 1. spectacular success 2. that you stay sane and true and don't sell out to Facebook or any other monster
Thank you! We want to avoid being bought at all costs :)
Is it possible to get prescription lens inserts? This would make a massive improvement for usability and comfort of anyone who wears glasses.
I'm not on the team but yes, they will take lens inserts; there has been some discussion on this on discord.
https://discord.com/channels/603723949586644997/603723949586...
https://discord.com/channels/603723949586644997/603723949586...
Yes:
1. We have up to 17mm of space for glasses for casual use
2. We're going to be compatible with prescription lens inserts out of the box, e.g. Reloptix.
3. It's possible that we'll include diopter adjustment as well
1. We have up to 17mm of space for glasses for casual use
2. We're going to be compatible with prescription lens inserts out of the box, e.g. Reloptix.
3. It's possible that we'll include diopter adjustment as well
That's great news! Is the idea that the headset is physically compatible with the shape of lens inserts for some existing mainstream headset, or will you be partnering with Reloptix and other vendors?
It would be very helpful to have this information somewhere prominently in your marketing materials.
It would be very helpful to have this information somewhere prominently in your marketing materials.
Talking with Reloptix right now about the details. We definitely need to put it more prominently somewhere (god, marketing is hard)
Looks like an interesting proposition!
Definitely would like more information about how this sits on the face of a glasses wearer (or how prescription lenses can anchor into the headset).
Also, there's no details on how this is powered, but given it's use case outdoors, it's suggests it's battery powered. What's the expected battery life?
RE power: Yes, it's battery powered. Our target is 3 hours (for reference: the Quest has a 2-3 hour battery life).
RE glasses & lens inserts: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30442633
RE ergonomics and comfort: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30442745 Possibly also of interest to you as well.
Hope this answers your questions. We appreciate your interest.
RE glasses & lens inserts: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30442633
RE ergonomics and comfort: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30442745 Possibly also of interest to you as well.
Hope this answers your questions. We appreciate your interest.
The pricing is absolutely nuts.
If it was $1,000 or so, maybe I'd be open to trying it, But at nearly 3K there's no way I'm risking that much money.
If your company goes bankrupt tomorrow, and the headset bricks itself, I'd have no recourse.
At the same time, I hope you're able to raise funding or something and get the cost down to $1,000.
I would absolutely love to have an open source VR headset.
If it was $1,000 or so, maybe I'd be open to trying it, But at nearly 3K there's no way I'm risking that much money.
If your company goes bankrupt tomorrow, and the headset bricks itself, I'd have no recourse.
At the same time, I hope you're able to raise funding or something and get the cost down to $1,000.
I would absolutely love to have an open source VR headset.
> If your company goes bankrupt tomorrow, and the headset bricks itself, I'd have no recourse.
Everything (including the hardware design) is open source, so yeah you absolutely would have recourse.
> I would absolutely love to have an open source VR headset.
And this is what it takes to get that.
Everything (including the hardware design) is open source, so yeah you absolutely would have recourse.
> I would absolutely love to have an open source VR headset.
And this is what it takes to get that.
I understand your concerns about pricing. We made a post earlier this year discussing why our expenses are so high.[1] TLDR: Low economies of scale and high launch costs. With that said, our pricing and specs are still competitive with ultra-premium VR headsets and premium office laptops (which we have essentially combined into one unit).
We also have a pricing option to reserve a headset with a partial deposit: pay $1,499 now, and then $1,499 right before we ship (Q4 '22/Q1 '23 target). This allows you to reserve a headset now at a lower price, see more proof throughout the year that we are performing our manufacturing duties diligently (via weekly updates), and then only paying the remainder of the balance ($1,499 + taxes/shipping) once we have the headset fully ready to ship to you.
We also just made a discount code for this thread: "DISCOUNT_HN" (limited to 10 for now) which adds an extra $100 off.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29923197
We also have a pricing option to reserve a headset with a partial deposit: pay $1,499 now, and then $1,499 right before we ship (Q4 '22/Q1 '23 target). This allows you to reserve a headset now at a lower price, see more proof throughout the year that we are performing our manufacturing duties diligently (via weekly updates), and then only paying the remainder of the balance ($1,499 + taxes/shipping) once we have the headset fully ready to ship to you.
We also just made a discount code for this thread: "DISCOUNT_HN" (limited to 10 for now) which adds an extra $100 off.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29923197
>(Q4 '22/Q1 '23 target)
We'll talk when it actually ships.
You do understand 3k is a ton of money right ? The other issue is even if I did pre order , the second you miss a release date I'd file a charge back.
Get too many charge backs and payment processors will stop accepting orders for you.
To be honest it would make more sense to develop an ultra cheap option, anything 1k or less, and you'll find people ready to take a risk. You might still get in trouble if you miss your ship date though.
You can buy an HTC Vive for 800$, and a PI4 for 60$. Where is the other 2k in markup coming from ?
We'll talk when it actually ships.
You do understand 3k is a ton of money right ? The other issue is even if I did pre order , the second you miss a release date I'd file a charge back.
Get too many charge backs and payment processors will stop accepting orders for you.
To be honest it would make more sense to develop an ultra cheap option, anything 1k or less, and you'll find people ready to take a risk. You might still get in trouble if you miss your ship date though.
You can buy an HTC Vive for 800$, and a PI4 for 60$. Where is the other 2k in markup coming from ?
> You can buy an HTC Vive for 800$, and a PI4 for 60$.
Why would anyone use Dropbox?? You can just use SFTP, CVS and a 5$ VPS... [0]
Seriously though, let's treat your comment as non-trolling:
The HTC Vive - a 6-year-old device - does not have anything close to the per-eye resolution needed to do any kind of desktop computing, AND it uses outside-in tracking, meaning you need external lighthouses so it's not really portable.
You would have been better off saying "You can buy an Oculus Quest 2 for $629" instead.
The PI4 does not provide the computing power to drive a VR display like that. That's kind of it right there. Bad example again.
0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224
Why would anyone use Dropbox?? You can just use SFTP, CVS and a 5$ VPS... [0]
Seriously though, let's treat your comment as non-trolling:
The HTC Vive - a 6-year-old device - does not have anything close to the per-eye resolution needed to do any kind of desktop computing, AND it uses outside-in tracking, meaning you need external lighthouses so it's not really portable.
You would have been better off saying "You can buy an Oculus Quest 2 for $629" instead.
The PI4 does not provide the computing power to drive a VR display like that. That's kind of it right there. Bad example again.
0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224
The Dropbox comment doesn't apply here. Simula One is meant for Linux geeks, the exact kind of person who would be just as happy (or happier) to roll their own Dropbox if it was cheaper.
I think you misunderstand the reason that comment is so notorious..
Well at least if my Pi4 + HTC Vive combo doesn't work I can send it back.
That's my big concern here, your talking about a new 3k device from a company that's never shipped hardware before.
Plus with Dropbox they didn't ask early adopters to drop 3k!
That's my big concern here, your talking about a new 3k device from a company that's never shipped hardware before.
Plus with Dropbox they didn't ask early adopters to drop 3k!
Then you aren't a early adopter. It's astonishing how many people here on hackernews don't understand this. Yes it's a lot of money, but it isn't comparable to anything else on the market right now. If you think it does you haven't actually looked at the specs or know anything about the VR market right now.
I get being cynical, but damn, ya'll need to shut up and stop trolling. This first edition is about testing the market. Proving people will buy it in a limited run and get the ball moving. If this first run goes well then there will hopefully be a v2 that is cheaper and enjoys the economies of scale.
It's like you never want a new manufacturer to exist. If you aren't going to buy it, then just don't buy it. You could say "hey this is too pricey for me right now with the risk, maybe in the future I'll be in the market" and go on about your day.
I get being cynical, but damn, ya'll need to shut up and stop trolling. This first edition is about testing the market. Proving people will buy it in a limited run and get the ball moving. If this first run goes well then there will hopefully be a v2 that is cheaper and enjoys the economies of scale.
It's like you never want a new manufacturer to exist. If you aren't going to buy it, then just don't buy it. You could say "hey this is too pricey for me right now with the risk, maybe in the future I'll be in the market" and go on about your day.
Please take a look at the inflation adjusted prices of early personal computers for a fair comparison.
This would be my concern too. The special sauce is in the integration of camera, headset and custom distro (much like remarkable is great because of the polish/software, not the hardware), but it's hard to see how this works, or if the Simula is practical, until you get it and try.
Is the experience seamless, does the display ever lag or cause nausea (I've had this before in VR envs) - does it get better/worse with long-term usage. Can you see via the cameras clearly enough that you never need take the headset off, even in the given "café" scenario? Is the headset comfortable enough for long-term use as a monitor replacement - does it get hot or sweaty?
As such, I'll wait for the reviews..
Is the experience seamless, does the display ever lag or cause nausea (I've had this before in VR envs) - does it get better/worse with long-term usage. Can you see via the cameras clearly enough that you never need take the headset off, even in the given "café" scenario? Is the headset comfortable enough for long-term use as a monitor replacement - does it get hot or sweaty?
As such, I'll wait for the reviews..
Appreciate the feedback, and totally understand why you would want to see reviews before making any deposits. We are targeting to have review units in a few months, which hopefully will provide some useful commentary on these issues from people besides us. For now:
RE cameras: we're pushing for high-resolution RGB cameras (a lot of existing headsets have pretty low quality/low fidelity cameras). If you aren't able to go for longish periods without taking the headset off (when needing to see your surroundings at least), then we are definitely doing something wrong. For latency considerations, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30445428
RE headset ergonomics & sweatiness: see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30442745
Over the coming days/weeks, we're pushing out blog updates which discuss the technical details of these issues (leading up to review units). If you're interested, you can sign up at newsletter.simulavr.com.
RE cameras: we're pushing for high-resolution RGB cameras (a lot of existing headsets have pretty low quality/low fidelity cameras). If you aren't able to go for longish periods without taking the headset off (when needing to see your surroundings at least), then we are definitely doing something wrong. For latency considerations, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30445428
RE headset ergonomics & sweatiness: see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30442745
Over the coming days/weeks, we're pushing out blog updates which discuss the technical details of these issues (leading up to review units). If you're interested, you can sign up at newsletter.simulavr.com.
> You can buy an HTC Vive for 800$, and a PI4 for 60$. Where is the other 2k in markup coming from ?
Good luck running SimulaVR on a PI4...
Good luck running SimulaVR on a PI4...
As a VR developer, I'm super excited about your device. I work for a foreign language instruction service, where we teach adults in diplomatic and security service settings. We've built a VR app that lets our students meet with their instructors remotely and practice language skills in culturally-appropriate settings.
In that capacity, I've done a lot of pricing out of VR kits and evaluation of devices. It became pretty clear early on that A) our students need the simplest possible setup that we can ship to them, B) the market is still too volatile and the current dominant players are too platform-oriented to commit fully to any one headset, and C) we need to be able to iterate rapidly, on our own, away from any app store.
Balancing all of these requirements eventually led us to building a WebXR app. It runs pretty much everywhere (any VR headset that matters[0], desktop, mobile[1]). We had high hopes for the Pico Neo and the HTC Vive Focus, but we primarily target the Meta Quest 2.
Mozilla was the biggest factor in that decision to focus on the Quest 2, because they really dropped the ball with Firefox Reality. Firefox Reality's last update was over a year ago, despite many desperately needed fixes for major show-stopper defects. Stuff like not being able to handle non-default IPD without massively distorting the image. Stuff like not being able to anti-alias the framebuffer the VR context uses. Stuff like janky ImageBitmap support forcing all of our texture pre-processing into the main render thread. Lesser stuff like being based on the pre-standards WebVR API, which lacked all but the most basic of VR features.
Quest's Oculus Browser is based on Chromium, with support for some experimental WebXR features that drastically improve the experience such as the Layers extension and the high refresh rate support. The lack of a serious browser competitor to Chrome across the entire market--but especially in a greenfield market like VR, when Mozilla has Hubs as a revenue-earning concern--has been the single biggest impediment to our ability to be truly cross-platform. But now Igalia has picked up the torch with Wolvic, so we're looking forward to seeing where that goes.
Wanting to stay out of any app stores and not wanting to require our users to have to share any data (see above on who we serve, Facebook login is a hard stop), we bought 35 headsets through the Oculus for Business program over the course of last year. Then with the Meta announcement Facebook also announced they are shutting down Oculus for Business.
So needless to say, this has been a very rocky journey. An open source, high-end, standalone, not-tied-to-a-platform VR headset can't come soon enough.
I'm curious if you have any plans on making any lower spec models at a lower price point? I've found that, given all our needs, we can't get any combo of kit together for less than roughly $1000, after you add up all the licensing and accessory costs. We're really comfortable spending that amount of money per headset. PCVR is a no-go for us--we already have enough problems getting linguists to figure out how to use the Quest 2 that I'm not going to toss a tethered VR setup at them--but if we were to go there it'd be around $2000.
We'll probably be able to get by with our current fleet of headsets for at least a year, but at that point we're going to be looking at depreciating them out. We have enough to cover about 10% of our student body at any one time, which is more than enough now, but my hope is to grow the app and start encouraging instructors to use VR as well. We basically choose the number of headsets we have based on how much we can afford, and then we push it out to students based on how many we have available, so any reduction in price is directly transferable to growth for us.
[0] I don't know of any currently that don't have some browser support available, though see my notes on Firefox later.
[1] Minus iOS, for well-known reasons, but that might be getting better soon. Not that it matters, nobody is using it that way.
In that capacity, I've done a lot of pricing out of VR kits and evaluation of devices. It became pretty clear early on that A) our students need the simplest possible setup that we can ship to them, B) the market is still too volatile and the current dominant players are too platform-oriented to commit fully to any one headset, and C) we need to be able to iterate rapidly, on our own, away from any app store.
Balancing all of these requirements eventually led us to building a WebXR app. It runs pretty much everywhere (any VR headset that matters[0], desktop, mobile[1]). We had high hopes for the Pico Neo and the HTC Vive Focus, but we primarily target the Meta Quest 2.
Mozilla was the biggest factor in that decision to focus on the Quest 2, because they really dropped the ball with Firefox Reality. Firefox Reality's last update was over a year ago, despite many desperately needed fixes for major show-stopper defects. Stuff like not being able to handle non-default IPD without massively distorting the image. Stuff like not being able to anti-alias the framebuffer the VR context uses. Stuff like janky ImageBitmap support forcing all of our texture pre-processing into the main render thread. Lesser stuff like being based on the pre-standards WebVR API, which lacked all but the most basic of VR features.
Quest's Oculus Browser is based on Chromium, with support for some experimental WebXR features that drastically improve the experience such as the Layers extension and the high refresh rate support. The lack of a serious browser competitor to Chrome across the entire market--but especially in a greenfield market like VR, when Mozilla has Hubs as a revenue-earning concern--has been the single biggest impediment to our ability to be truly cross-platform. But now Igalia has picked up the torch with Wolvic, so we're looking forward to seeing where that goes.
Wanting to stay out of any app stores and not wanting to require our users to have to share any data (see above on who we serve, Facebook login is a hard stop), we bought 35 headsets through the Oculus for Business program over the course of last year. Then with the Meta announcement Facebook also announced they are shutting down Oculus for Business.
So needless to say, this has been a very rocky journey. An open source, high-end, standalone, not-tied-to-a-platform VR headset can't come soon enough.
I'm curious if you have any plans on making any lower spec models at a lower price point? I've found that, given all our needs, we can't get any combo of kit together for less than roughly $1000, after you add up all the licensing and accessory costs. We're really comfortable spending that amount of money per headset. PCVR is a no-go for us--we already have enough problems getting linguists to figure out how to use the Quest 2 that I'm not going to toss a tethered VR setup at them--but if we were to go there it'd be around $2000.
We'll probably be able to get by with our current fleet of headsets for at least a year, but at that point we're going to be looking at depreciating them out. We have enough to cover about 10% of our student body at any one time, which is more than enough now, but my hope is to grow the app and start encouraging instructors to use VR as well. We basically choose the number of headsets we have based on how much we can afford, and then we push it out to students based on how many we have available, so any reduction in price is directly transferable to growth for us.
[0] I don't know of any currently that don't have some browser support available, though see my notes on Firefox later.
[1] Minus iOS, for well-known reasons, but that might be getting better soon. Not that it matters, nobody is using it that way.
[deleted]
I've got an IPD of 77 and I'm extremely grateful to see a good VR headset that supports how far apart my eyes are.
Nice! We're big on being compatible with as many people as reasonably possible, as we've been annoyed by that in other headsets in the past.
* Technically, there's another +-2mm of allowable eye center x/y/z movement that we've reserved for the headset moving around + eye relief. So in theory the maximum IPD would be closer to 81mm, but that puts your right on the edge of reaching our target picture quality.
* Technically, there's another +-2mm of allowable eye center x/y/z movement that we've reserved for the headset moving around + eye relief. So in theory the maximum IPD would be closer to 81mm, but that puts your right on the edge of reaching our target picture quality.
Well, I don't have the money now, but Q4 '22 is a while away. So this is the first newsletter I've ever signed up for.
Any text thoughts on text inputs while mobile? I've actually got a split keyboard like you show in use while standing, but that looks a little janky. Maybe we all need to learn how to use twiddlers.
Any text thoughts on text inputs while mobile? I've actually got a split keyboard like you show in use while standing, but that looks a little janky. Maybe we all need to learn how to use twiddlers.
Thanks for signing up for our newsletter. RE the text input issue: I've thought about this a lot. Options:
1. BCI. This is the holy grail. Ideally, something which could absorb 20,000 inputs (or approximately the number of words in the English language) with extremely high accuracy.
2. Voice control. Some hackers have gotten voice programming to work with sophisticated setups. Not ideal when you need to be quiet.
3. Twiddler (& twiddler-like solutions). These are cool, but the problem with them is that seem to cap out at ~60wpm (also take a while to learn how to use).
4. Attaching a keyboard to yourself. This is the most short-term viable option, but yeah isn't long-term ideal. (In particular since it limits us to ~100wpm, which isn't very good). It also requires you to be touch-type proficient, which not everyone is.
1. BCI. This is the holy grail. Ideally, something which could absorb 20,000 inputs (or approximately the number of words in the English language) with extremely high accuracy.
2. Voice control. Some hackers have gotten voice programming to work with sophisticated setups. Not ideal when you need to be quiet.
3. Twiddler (& twiddler-like solutions). These are cool, but the problem with them is that seem to cap out at ~60wpm (also take a while to learn how to use).
4. Attaching a keyboard to yourself. This is the most short-term viable option, but yeah isn't long-term ideal. (In particular since it limits us to ~100wpm, which isn't very good). It also requires you to be touch-type proficient, which not everyone is.
In particular, I think lots of people who think they are touch-proficient will be in for a surprised when they try using a keyboard in VR and can never look at the keyboard. I certainly was. It turns out I mostly don't look, but glance occasionally, and the glances were actually pretty important. Although your passthrough would certainly help there!
Funny anecdote, we had no AR mode planned originally. Both me and George were completely fine without looking at the keyboard, so it didn't occur to us.
Then our ME demo'd the software and couldn't type. We went "oh, fuck, what if someone needs to actually see their keyboard."
And, well, we don't do things by half measures, so proper AR passthrough it is.
Then our ME demo'd the software and couldn't type. We went "oh, fuck, what if someone needs to actually see their keyboard."
And, well, we don't do things by half measures, so proper AR passthrough it is.
I have a problem with the blue light from the screens.
Pushing this light source close to my eyes is utter madness.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6288536/
The risk of blue light from computer screens has been vastly, vastly overstated.
I'm actually really hyped for this, I was thinking I would have to get the ultra-proprietary Varjo headsets to get a really good headset in 2022, but I'm really looking hard at the Tethered version and building my own RDNA2 based compute unit. I'd much rather give 2k to an open source project.
Nice! Fair warning, you'll probably have reduced AR mode fidelity in tethered mode unless you have a Thunderbolt/PCIe link. Our compute pack uses a PCIe Gen3 x4 link to the front FPGA to get uncompressed image data (compression is something I want to avoid due to latency and memory bandwidth issues).
Ideally we would have a way to compose the AR image in the front, but that's a massive engineering challenge.
Ideally we would have a way to compose the AR image in the front, but that's a massive engineering challenge.
Preordered one.
I hope this product has a chance against the biggest.
- open source - nixos - not focused on ads/metaverse/my personal data
I hope this product has a chance against the biggest.
- open source - nixos - not focused on ads/metaverse/my personal data
Are any of you dogfooding your prototypes full-time?
If it's comfortable for you to use for full workdays in programming, I'd bite the bullet and get one. I've wanted something like this for years, but don't think I'd want it unless it can totally replace my laptop.
Thanks for your interest. I know it's a cliche, but yes, we are actually building a VR computer because we want to use them ourselves (completely replacing our own Laptops/PCs).
Here's an early "dog-fooding" video of me using Simula to develop on Simula: https://youtu.be/FWLuwG91HnI.
Here's an early "dog-fooding" video of me using Simula to develop on Simula: https://youtu.be/FWLuwG91HnI.
Not yet using the prototypes (there's basically literally two samples of the displays we're using and we need them for dev) but once we have more of them produced, yeah, definitely. George used a Vive Pro for early software dev a lot.
Edit: shop had the wrong link
At $3,000+, you are leaving very little room for people who want to see you succeed to support you.
Best of luck.
At $3,000+, you are leaving very little room for people who want to see you succeed to support you.
Best of luck.
We're using Shopify and it's up on my end. Looks like George somehow added a www. -- the URL is https://shop.simulavr.com
My mistake, okay.
Edit: standalone is ~$2k. At these kinds of prices, will have to wait it out and see if they can deliver.
The price has to come down somehow to make this more readily available / accelerate use.
Edit: standalone is ~$2k. At these kinds of prices, will have to wait it out and see if they can deliver.
The price has to come down somehow to make this more readily available / accelerate use.
We have a headset-only version priced at $2k. This is roughly comparable to other higher end headsets on the market and includes AR cameras
I get it, making something like this isn’t cheap. I hope you can pull it off, VR computing is the dream.
I would say this might necessitate an investor injecting liquidity and selling the headset below margins to generate a community initially, while also putting manufacturing pressure on you all to find creative ways to lower cost without compromising quality.
Hate to say it, but at $2k min for a tethered device, I would just go with a Quest for $300 or a Hololens for $3000.
I would say this might necessitate an investor injecting liquidity and selling the headset below margins to generate a community initially, while also putting manufacturing pressure on you all to find creative ways to lower cost without compromising quality.
Hate to say it, but at $2k min for a tethered device, I would just go with a Quest for $300 or a Hololens for $3000.
No one can compete with the Quest on price. VR is a somewhat expensive hobby and by being a part of it you understand that things will me expensive.
As terrified as I am of VR headsets taking over society, this is cool.
One of my most immediate and less paranoid concerns that people with current VR sets probably know, does looking around like that make your neck/back/shoulders ache at any point? Also is AR mode nauseating after a few hours?
One of my most immediate and less paranoid concerns that people with current VR sets probably know, does looking around like that make your neck/back/shoulders ache at any point? Also is AR mode nauseating after a few hours?
AR mode is tricky, and it's one of the things I need full integration for. This will take a few months to get the sensors, FPGA, etc. sorted.
So far with prototype units it was fine, but haven't tested for longer periods of time.
So far with prototype units it was fine, but haven't tested for longer periods of time.
> does looking around like that make your neck/back/shoulders ache at any point
no. There are plenty of practical issues but that isn't one from my usage :-)
no. There are plenty of practical issues but that isn't one from my usage :-)
In the before-times, this would’ve been life-altering for devs who would frequently travel by plane.
Pre-pandemic, remember computering in economy class? You were lucky if you could see your laptop screen! With this gadget, your screen is all around you and your keyboard can literally be on your lap.
Pre-pandemic, remember computering in economy class? You were lucky if you could see your laptop screen! With this gadget, your screen is all around you and your keyboard can literally be on your lap.
Agreed =]
Another benefit of VRCs is that they allow you to work more privately, which is also useful in planes. I don't know if I'm just weird, but I've always found it unnerving to work on a laptop in economy class where people can just glance over at my screen. (Even if I'm not even working on anything that private or sensitive). VRCs mean nobody can see what you're working on except you.
Another benefit of VRCs is that they allow you to work more privately, which is also useful in planes. I don't know if I'm just weird, but I've always found it unnerving to work on a laptop in economy class where people can just glance over at my screen. (Even if I'm not even working on anything that private or sensitive). VRCs mean nobody can see what you're working on except you.
Price is too rich for my blood, but I will be watching with interest how it goes.
I have tried working in VR a few times with my WMR headset and never found a setup which was effective. This looks pretty good! I would love to give it a try first of course.
I have tried working in VR a few times with my WMR headset and never found a setup which was effective. This looks pretty good! I would love to give it a try first of course.
Thanks for your interest. We're looking forward to review units shipping out in the next few months, which might help you get a sense for how the product performs by real testers. We also will be sending our weekly updates showcasing the progress of our headset development (you can subscribe here if you're interested: https://newsletter.simulavr.com/).
RE pricing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30441454
Which WMR headset did you try? The main improvement our headset will likely have over your previous experience is a significantly higher PPD/pixel density (which helps text become legible). The exception is if you tried the HoloLens, which has a fairly decent PPD (but a very low FoV).
RE pricing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30441454
Which WMR headset did you try? The main improvement our headset will likely have over your previous experience is a significantly higher PPD/pixel density (which helps text become legible). The exception is if you tried the HoloLens, which has a fairly decent PPD (but a very low FoV).
Samsung Odyssey+. My main gripe was I could not find good virtual desktop software which was compatible with WMR which could get out of its own way.
It used to be that companies had products ready for sale before trying to sell them. Generally with production being funded by a loan.
Is this something that’s just impossible now? Or banks don’t want to fund something like this?
Is this something that’s just impossible now? Or banks don’t want to fund something like this?
It's really incredibly hard to get a loan nowadays. And finding a VC that won't stick their nose in too much is also really hard.
George knows more about it, but even an established company I'm familiar with could not get a loan without personal guarantees from the CEO last year.
George knows more about it, but even an established company I'm familiar with could not get a loan without personal guarantees from the CEO last year.
Bank debtors are very downside oriented, and want to see a conservative track record of cash flow coming into a business before they are willing to go anywhere near it. (Not necessarily saying this is always bad).
Venture is a better fit for our project, but from the outside we look like we're way too niche to ever have a big market. Great VCs will know that small markets can turn into large markets[1], but we had a very hard time finding good investors in the past. We tried to raise money from traditional institutions and failed, and decided that the best way to proceed was to just focus on our product and carve our own path.
[1] https://www.ycombinator.com/library/3V-toy-markets
Venture is a better fit for our project, but from the outside we look like we're way too niche to ever have a big market. Great VCs will know that small markets can turn into large markets[1], but we had a very hard time finding good investors in the past. We tried to raise money from traditional institutions and failed, and decided that the best way to proceed was to just focus on our product and carve our own path.
[1] https://www.ycombinator.com/library/3V-toy-markets
Did anyone have to find battery life? I keep looking but t can't find it... It could be because I'm on mobile. Kinda strange, since this is quite an important part.
If you find battery life, please tell me!
If you find battery life, please tell me!
Battery life isn't in the specs yet because it's TBD. We're targeting 3 hours, but that's not a final number and might change if we notice that it's too heavy or we still have usable mass budget etc.
Three hours seems very low, but I guess it count be doable if the charge time is one hour or less. That way I could see it like, it forces you to stretch your legs.
Damn... I'm guessing swappable batteries aren't on the roadmap.
But the tech looks really cool, especially because MAYBE it could be used while laying in the bed.
Best of luck! I hope you'll be profitable and continue to develop the tech!
Best of luck! I hope you'll be profitable and continue to develop the tech!
Swappable isn't planned for the v1, yeah. V2, maybe.
Charge time should be about an hour (1C charging).
Charge time should be about an hour (1C charging).
I know, people are already talking about a price, but I want to add my perspective as well.
I was subscribed to the Newsletter, read every blog post and generally was pretty hyped for the Simula One. Up until I read the blog post about the pricing. That's when I unsubscribed the newsletter and forgot about SimulaVR.
Sure, other AR/VR headsets cost as much, but for me its just too expensive. I can't spend nearly $3k for a headset I haven't even tried. This product is already targetted to a niche without considering the price, add in the pricing and that niche gets even smaller. Basically, the only people who will buy these are rich silicon valley nerds.
Wish SimulaVR the best of luck, but for the moment it seems like I can't really support them.
I was subscribed to the Newsletter, read every blog post and generally was pretty hyped for the Simula One. Up until I read the blog post about the pricing. That's when I unsubscribed the newsletter and forgot about SimulaVR.
Sure, other AR/VR headsets cost as much, but for me its just too expensive. I can't spend nearly $3k for a headset I haven't even tried. This product is already targetted to a niche without considering the price, add in the pricing and that niche gets even smaller. Basically, the only people who will buy these are rich silicon valley nerds.
Wish SimulaVR the best of luck, but for the moment it seems like I can't really support them.
It's a fairly high-end headset attached to a compoarably powerful laptop, and the cost reflects the combined cost of both parts. It's expensive but the price makes sense.
> attached to a compoarably powerful laptop
This is the part that doesn't make sense. I don't need a computer from a product manufacturer focused on something else. I already have 10+ computers within reach; 3 of them can stream just fine to my Oculus Quest.
Really, is the only way to create a VR PC to eschew all of that in favor of some controlled hardware ecosystem? I don't/won't buy it.
This is the part that doesn't make sense. I don't need a computer from a product manufacturer focused on something else. I already have 10+ computers within reach; 3 of them can stream just fine to my Oculus Quest.
Really, is the only way to create a VR PC to eschew all of that in favor of some controlled hardware ecosystem? I don't/won't buy it.
As someone who has a Quest (which I've used fairly regularly) and some tethered headsets (which I haven't because they're a pain to set up)... I get it. Realistically I can't see myself using a tethered headset as a desktop, but I absolutely could see myself using a standalone headset like this.
Several reasons:
1. You need a dedicated PC for this, or the friction of having to set everything up will lead to you never using it.
2. VR on Linux is a compatibility nightmare. Focusing on one configuration as our baseline makes things so much simpler.
1. You need a dedicated PC for this, or the friction of having to set everything up will lead to you never using it.
2. VR on Linux is a compatibility nightmare. Focusing on one configuration as our baseline makes things so much simpler.
1. Okay, I have several candidates.
2. Ok. Welcome to life in Linux?
If these justifications were serious, I should have the option to buy just the headset and navigate the compatibility problems if I chose. We're talking about Linux after all.
Having this one option and hiding behind the excuses I've seen indicate they've jumped the shark sooner to consumerism than I would've hoped.
2. Ok. Welcome to life in Linux?
If these justifications were serious, I should have the option to buy just the headset and navigate the compatibility problems if I chose. We're talking about Linux after all.
Having this one option and hiding behind the excuses I've seen indicate they've jumped the shark sooner to consumerism than I would've hoped.
You do. We sell a tethered edition that's just the headset.
You have 10+ computers within reach but you're complaining about price? You do realise the irony here don't you?
No. I'm emphasizing the ludicrous proposition.
You're getting downvoted, but you shouldn't be. Only SV salaries mean that 3k is a reasonable amount of money to take a gamble on a headset you haven't tried.
I also love Simula One and would love to get the 2nd or 3rd gen version, but at the moment it's simply too expensive because of the low manufacturing volumes. The price is bound to reduce if it becomes popular, and I'm counting on that.
I also love Simula One and would love to get the 2nd or 3rd gen version, but at the moment it's simply too expensive because of the low manufacturing volumes. The price is bound to reduce if it becomes popular, and I'm counting on that.
> The price is bound to reduce if it becomes popular
That's what I'm hoping for, because I do actually really like the product. I just can't afford it, sadly.
That's what I'm hoping for, because I do actually really like the product. I just can't afford it, sadly.
I'm unlikely to buy but I'm curious how well this could work for photo editing on the go, where the ability to reject outside light puts it potentially above laptops in practical use.
What does the tethered version weigh? My biggest gripe with the Oculus Quest 2 is how heavy it is. If the tethered version of the Simula One is considerably lighter, then I'm interested.
The website suggests there will be eye and hand tracking, but I could not find any mention of head tracking. Will the head be tracked in 3DOF or 6DOF?
Cool tech. Still, I don't understand how one can wear millimeter wave radio transmitters so close to the brain and not be concerned.
We haven't finalized on the mmWave yet, but there's standards for human body exposure that we will of course meet. IEC 62311, ICNIRP guidelines, and so on.
The mmWave transmitter is directional, and the basic restrictions for local exposure in ICNIRP for the general public is at 20W/m2. The transmitter EIRP is 15dBm, so you'd need to put the entire transmitter's EIRP into a 4cm * 4cm target to exceed those.
The mmWave transmitter is directional, and the basic restrictions for local exposure in ICNIRP for the general public is at 20W/m2. The transmitter EIRP is 15dBm, so you'd need to put the entire transmitter's EIRP into a 4cm * 4cm target to exceed those.
Good to hear that you're taking it into consideration from the start.
Even if device adheres to all regulations it would still be a concern to me as standards are mainly written around phone use (shorter intervals and from side of the head). Also, as you know, regulations vary greatly between countries so there's no consensus on what is safe.
Personally, when on conference calls, I use bluetooth or wired headphones to keep my phone away from my head. If I was to use device like that I would prefer for it to have radios separate but I understand the ergonomics (and cost benefits) of all in one unit.
Even if device adheres to all regulations it would still be a concern to me as standards are mainly written around phone use (shorter intervals and from side of the head). Also, as you know, regulations vary greatly between countries so there's no consensus on what is safe.
Personally, when on conference calls, I use bluetooth or wired headphones to keep my phone away from my head. If I was to use device like that I would prefer for it to have radios separate but I understand the ergonomics (and cost benefits) of all in one unit.
I am not ready for anything like this but it's very cool! I can't wait to see how it develops.
Not meaning to be picky, but how is this related to the work of Ole-Johan Dahl and Kristen Nygaard?
I personally found this is really interesting, hope it can becomes smaller and lightweight soon.
sounds impressive. anyone complaining about price has clearly never looked at pimax headsets lol
I know this is Linux oriented, but if I use it in tethered mode, could I hook it up to my MBP?
Maybe? Do other headsets work on the MBP? There's nothing blocking it, but it's not primary compatibility target. That being said, everything will be open source, so it shouldn't be too difficult to add it in if we don't have the resources for it.
Is a single HDMI out enough? Don’t you need an 8k connection or the like to drive both displays?
Super cool, love it. Is it possible to make a version that plugs into the back of my head?
This will be featured with the Simula Two (Matrix Edition).
If you were guaranteed to sell 100k units, what could you price the standalone at?
100k? 2k should be doable without compromising on the specs.
Is there some number of units where you could hit $1k on all in cost per unit?
Not with this hardware.
Shop server looks down.
The cost is too high for even high-paid engineers. Are these hand-built?
The cost is too high for even high-paid engineers. Are these hand-built?
looks like a bad link, this works: https://shop.simulavr.com/
The URL has www. at the start by accident.
It solves a personal productivity problem for you as much as the self balancing Segway electric scooter solves the personal transportation problem.
Are you considering accepting payments in some form of cryptocurrency? Would love to preorder.
Yeah, discussing this rn but it's likely.
We are now accepting crypto payments via Coinbase Commerce. At shop checkout, select "coinbase commerce".
Man, what has HAPPENED to this place? I'm the biggest curmudgeon in the room, I'll have six feet of dirt on my face before I agree to use this daily, but damn, folks, this IS cool. Everyone complains about boring stagnating consumer tech, locked-down hardware, and Mark Zuckerberg making a real go at personally stalking every single person on the planet - this is the _exact opposite of that_. This is high-end, incredibly weird, deeply niche hardware running open-source software. Yes, it costs a lot - that's the cost of not making another shitty piece of spyware-laden consumer bullshit. You're not gonna buy it? Cool, I get it. But my god, not everything has to appeal to the whole fucking market. That kind of thinking is why every damn car on the road is exactly the same shitty crossover as every other one.
George, David, this is rad. Kudos for building it, kudos for selling it, and good luck to you and your team - I sincerely hope you succeed, because the world needs more of your kind of weird.
George, David, this is rad. Kudos for building it, kudos for selling it, and good luck to you and your team - I sincerely hope you succeed, because the world needs more of your kind of weird.
Thank you for the kind words. Even if VR computers aren't for everyone, we promise to keep things weird.
So one thing that may help the sales pitch to the hacker demographic here - I think we've all seen a bunch of promising hardware companies come and go. I know you guys are going to survive for the next century, but if you made a point of being extremely open with the hardware design, especially around the compute module, I think that would make a difference in people's value calculations. The closer you can make this to "I can buy commodity hardware and make it work with this headset", the better the value proposition becomes, because it means that I have something I can upgrade and work with over time, even after you all get so fantastically wealthy from building these that you retire to Bali and forget all this tawdry capitalism stuff.
Indeed, but maybe the NUC-included-model is important for the margin? Although from the price difference between the models that might not even be the case.
I'm not talking about going full "BYOC" - I think they should still sell the whole kit - but I think it'd make it easier to see the long-term value proposition if I know I _can_ build my own compute module in the future - that I'm not wholly reliant on their corporate solvency to use the hardware going forward. Effectively, they've got an all-in-one computer with a really novel/interesting display, and the issue with many all-in-one computers is that the computer guts usually age faster and less gracefully than the displays. They're showing the compute part as modular, but that's not useful if the company isn't around in ~3 years unless I can build my own.
The NUC is actually a bit subsidized compared to the tethered version.
The top 10+ subthreads are all positive - I think I had to go all the way to #18 to find a negative one. You may be falling prey to the contrarian dynamic: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
When I visited this thread 2h ago, the top subthread was negative.
Definitely some kind of weird dynamic going on...
Definitely some kind of weird dynamic going on...
This might be because it's easier to write a quick putdown than a thoughtful comment, so the first comments tend to be the quick putdowns. Thankfully the more thoughtful comments rise to the top, but that takes time.
That's exactly the contrarian dynamic—your description is spot on! It's an artifact of the commenting process, not a representative sample of the community, and it happens in many threads. Maybe most threads.
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
Exactly.
I often look at vintage tech and lament how boring everything is now. Will anybody look back on our modern devices in 30 years? We are surrounded daily by utterly soulless slabs chained to walled-garden ecosystems.
I often look at vintage tech and lament how boring everything is now. Will anybody look back on our modern devices in 30 years? We are surrounded daily by utterly soulless slabs chained to walled-garden ecosystems.
Agreed 100%. I saw this and immediately fell in love.
This is incredible and I'm super stoked to see how it comes out.
Yeah - as an ancient software geek I don't want it, but I definitely want someone to build it, especially in the open source space.
Thank you!
[deleted](1)
Hey George, I think you need to remove the `www` from your shop link above. This link (found from the page) seems to work fine[0].
[0] https://shop.simulavr.com/
[0] https://shop.simulavr.com/
Yes, this was totally my mistake. I'm unable to edit the post now but emailed dang to see if he can fix it.
Fixed. Thanks!
Is the computer in the headset? Why? (!!!)
Looks like a great way to cause your neck muscles to spasm horribly painfully.
If I were designing these, they’d either be completely transparent so AR or the headset would be only the LCD and maybe sensors.
Looks like a great way to cause your neck muscles to spasm horribly painfully.
If I were designing these, they’d either be completely transparent so AR or the headset would be only the LCD and maybe sensors.
The compute pack is detachable, but leaving it in the back of the headset is good for front/rear balance. Most gaming headsets on the market today are very front-weight biased.
Our headset supports an "AR Mode" with two front-facing high-res RGB cameras.
Our headset supports an "AR Mode" with two front-facing high-res RGB cameras.
Did you consult any physiologists? Anyone who knows what’s acceptable to those muscles? There’s a reason eye glasses use lightweight materials. Then all the various treatments to make the lenses visually clear and comfortable.
Good idea. We're mostly working off experiences with other headsets and e.g. bike helmets here, but having harder data would be good.
It’s a cool idea. I remember dreaming of this sort of thing in HS. I’m sure there are medical professionals who’d be able to inform you for a consultation. Perhaps even wiring up some volunteers to see muscular activity with various weights. Or yeah maybe helmet design has tread this well.
If it's well-balanced I would imagine that it would work for long periods of time. We already have some evidence from people modifying other VR headset straps to balance the weight. I wasn't able to find any information about the total weight of the Simula One VRC, but I know personally that my motorcycle helmet is close to 4lbs and I have often worn that for days at a time with lots of head movement.
We don't publish the weight officially yet since we're not that far along the development cycle yet. Our target is 800g, but we need to find a good balance between battery life, thermal solution, and weight.
Actually, it probably isn't that bad if it's well balanced. I own a Meta Quest 2 and I added an external battery at the back of the headstrap because it helps balancing the headset while playing, preventing it from dropping on my nose too much.
We call our headset a “VR Computer” (or a “VRC”) to distinguish it from gaming headsets. When Simula was founded, most people thought the future of VR was in games & entertainment. The truth is that VR offers a superior way for performing knowledge work, but until now there haven’t been dedicated VR computing devices available on the market. While existing headsets are optimized for gaming, ours is optimized for productivity: it features bleeding edge high-resolution displays, has a detachable compute pack with specs comparable to a premium office laptop (x86 architecture), and runs a VR specialized Linux distro optimized for clear text.
VRCs offer several advantages over Laptops & PCs: they provide unlimited screens of any size, improve work focus & immersion, are usable outdoors (no laptop glare), improve privacy (no one around you can snoop your screen), and their compact design frees up desk space. They also promote better posture and freedom of movement: with a VR computer you can change positions, sit up, lean back, stand, lie down, or even walk while you compute.
Our project started out as an open-source VR window manager (https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula), which you can try out today on the Valve Index or HTC Vive. It's built over Drew Devault's wlroots and the Godot game engine. Once our compositor became relatively stable, we ran into the issue of “no other manufacturer wanted to offer us Linux support” (thinking there was no market for something so niche, I imagine?). So we decided to build our own =] We are happy to answer any question (technical or otherwise) about our project.