Launch HN: Micro Meat (YC S21) – Technology for scaling cultivated meat
204 comments
Wow, I have so many questions. First, I really respect people acting on conviction. Anyway, I have lots of questions (all completely uninformed) so feel free to ignore any of them, haha.
1) Where are you in the development process? Have your scaffolds been used to successfully grow a piece of edible meat?
2) When do you think the value of cultivated meat will grow to a point to make the industry self-sustaining? Or even just for it to become a viable option for restaurants/consumers?
3) How is flavour added in the process? Since diet has so much impact on flavour, how can you experiment with flavour while growing it in lab? I understand this is specific to another step in the process, so if you can't answer, no worries.
4) When you say scaffolding, my mind immediately goes to a very visual/physically defined place. I'm picturing like a Ribeye Exoskeleton. What level of control over the sculpting of the end product do you have, or does the scaffolding function on a very general growth support level that results in the development of an end product that is then sculpted by the meat-maker?
5) Anne-Sophie, have you tried any lab grown meat?
6) How far away are we from seeing "at-home" kits for meat growing? I'm picturing a world where a restaurant has their meat-printer going all the time, experimenting with different flavours and textures for the next menu!
7) Does this have any non-edible use cases? Can this process be applied to growing functional muscle/tissue, not just edible muscle/tissue?
Thanks! Again, feel free to pick and choose.
1) Where are you in the development process? Have your scaffolds been used to successfully grow a piece of edible meat?
2) When do you think the value of cultivated meat will grow to a point to make the industry self-sustaining? Or even just for it to become a viable option for restaurants/consumers?
3) How is flavour added in the process? Since diet has so much impact on flavour, how can you experiment with flavour while growing it in lab? I understand this is specific to another step in the process, so if you can't answer, no worries.
4) When you say scaffolding, my mind immediately goes to a very visual/physically defined place. I'm picturing like a Ribeye Exoskeleton. What level of control over the sculpting of the end product do you have, or does the scaffolding function on a very general growth support level that results in the development of an end product that is then sculpted by the meat-maker?
5) Anne-Sophie, have you tried any lab grown meat?
6) How far away are we from seeing "at-home" kits for meat growing? I'm picturing a world where a restaurant has their meat-printer going all the time, experimenting with different flavours and textures for the next menu!
7) Does this have any non-edible use cases? Can this process be applied to growing functional muscle/tissue, not just edible muscle/tissue?
Thanks! Again, feel free to pick and choose.
1) We have already created our first piece of edible pork using our method!
2) ATKearney in their article "How will cultured meat and meat alternatives disrupt the agricultural and food industry?" estimates that about 10% of global meat consumption could be switched over to cultivated meat around 2030. While 10% is low, I think you'll start seeing restaurant experiences start cropping up more and more over the next 3-7 years.
3) For cultivated meat, one method of adding flavor is by cultivating fat cells and merging it with the muscle cells after maturing.
4) With our method, the final shape of the meat can actually get very unique. There really are no limitations on the shape/ layout of the meat, and the final shaping is done after maturing the cells. If you want to have chicken meat in the shape of a ribeye, you will definitely be able to with our technology.
5) We have not tasted it yet, but we will very soon!
6) We are probably closer than you might imagine. Our technology enables production at any scale, from a full industrial plant to a small "home brewing" set-up. Really, it just comes down to getting the medium and growth factors to be cheaper for the average consumer.
7) Generally yes, with some minor and not so minor adaptations.
2) ATKearney in their article "How will cultured meat and meat alternatives disrupt the agricultural and food industry?" estimates that about 10% of global meat consumption could be switched over to cultivated meat around 2030. While 10% is low, I think you'll start seeing restaurant experiences start cropping up more and more over the next 3-7 years.
3) For cultivated meat, one method of adding flavor is by cultivating fat cells and merging it with the muscle cells after maturing.
4) With our method, the final shape of the meat can actually get very unique. There really are no limitations on the shape/ layout of the meat, and the final shaping is done after maturing the cells. If you want to have chicken meat in the shape of a ribeye, you will definitely be able to with our technology.
5) We have not tasted it yet, but we will very soon!
6) We are probably closer than you might imagine. Our technology enables production at any scale, from a full industrial plant to a small "home brewing" set-up. Really, it just comes down to getting the medium and growth factors to be cheaper for the average consumer.
7) Generally yes, with some minor and not so minor adaptations.
> 5) We have not tasted it yet, but we will very soon!
You need double blind taste tests. It doesn't matter if cultured meat is good for the planet, if Joe Sixpack won't eat cultured meat because it tastes bad or has weird non-meat properties and textures, then your product will get no traction
You need double blind taste tests. It doesn't matter if cultured meat is good for the planet, if Joe Sixpack won't eat cultured meat because it tastes bad or has weird non-meat properties and textures, then your product will get no traction
Impossible is already pretty good on “ground beef as an ingredient in something”. It’s comically out of the range where it will succeed economically, but it’s also early; if they can get the price down to compete with utility ground beef, I think it would already do phenomenally well in the market on a taste and feel dimension.
It’s not going to knock off any boutique burger and obviously not even a round steak, but I think that cultured meat is at least even-money to take a 30% market share of “beef” in the next 30 years.
It’s not going to knock off any boutique burger and obviously not even a round steak, but I think that cultured meat is at least even-money to take a 30% market share of “beef” in the next 30 years.
Beyond and Impossible is doing well. Like solar, replacement would be harder sale. Focus on uniqueness, specific use cases probably better.
This has been my experience. I'm pretty happy with more processed lab meat. Burgers, chicken nuggets, etc.
If the texture/experience of chicken breast or a filet mignon can be perfected though, then we're talking about mass adoption on a global scale.
I do wonder if this means a potential end to cooking methods like BBQ. The skeleton of the animal plays a huge role in that cooking environment, I wonder if we can replicate it as well?
Looking forward to the future!
If the texture/experience of chicken breast or a filet mignon can be perfected though, then we're talking about mass adoption on a global scale.
I do wonder if this means a potential end to cooking methods like BBQ. The skeleton of the animal plays a huge role in that cooking environment, I wonder if we can replicate it as well?
Looking forward to the future!
Joe Sixpack. Gonna use this one
It's a term that was made popular by Sarah Palin during the 2008 vice presidential debates to describe a regular average Joe who always arrives with a six pack of beer in one hand when he shows up to visit.
Oh god.
> Good Food Institute is estimating that about 10% of global meat consumption could be switched over to cultivated meat around 2030. While 10% is low
10% in the next 8 years seems very impressive to me. Do you have a link to the report? I searched but their State of the Industry report has a question mark instead of a date
https://gfi.org/resource/cultivated-meat-eggs-and-dairy-stat...
10% in the next 8 years seems very impressive to me. Do you have a link to the report? I searched but their State of the Industry report has a question mark instead of a date
https://gfi.org/resource/cultivated-meat-eggs-and-dairy-stat...
Good catch! This should have said ATKearney, and has been updated. You can find the report here: https://gastronomiaycia.republica.com/wp-content/uploads/201...
Thank you.
10% of the global meat market is around 30 million metric tons per year. What are we currently at?
Currently the only places in the world where the general public can taste cultivated meat products are one restaurant in Singapore and one restaurant in Israel. So very little amounts at this point :)
I haven't had the chance to taste the meat of other companies sadly, but we plan on be ready for tasting of our product in the next months!
This is all very exciting. I am looking forward to a well marbled chicken steak in the future.
Thanks for taking the time to answer.
Thanks for taking the time to answer.
Just wanted to say this is probably the best launch HN description I’ve ever seen, and I’ve been here for the better part of the decade. Thank you for going into the real meat (ahem) of it and not being scared of writing at length.
Your cause, if successful, will hopefully indirectly result in orders of magnitude reduction in total animal suffering, so best of luck and godspeed.
Your cause, if successful, will hopefully indirectly result in orders of magnitude reduction in total animal suffering, so best of luck and godspeed.
Agreed, it was a particularly well-written description and if the end products manufactured with it reached the right taste/price, they're something I'd eat regularly
Thank you so much! Highly appreciated!
As a meat fan, and also an Earth fan, this is something I've always wanted to see happen. I've mostly fallen on the Earth side of the fence, which means I've been vegetarian-ish for years. I would love to be able to eat what I want without the climate guilt. Glad to see this tech is getting closer towards market, and I hope your business is successful.
To those wondering why lab-grown meat instead of going vegan:
People are driven by incentives. People like meat, so instead of asking them to stop eating meat, which most won't do, make it a better option that fits with whatever the asker's goals are. In this case, you'd want people to care about animals or decrease environmental effects, so the way to do that while also considering people's incentives of loving meat is to have lab grown meat, or something close enough like plant-based meat substitutes that taste like meat.
You will never get anything done by appealing to individuals to change their habits wholesale, that's just not going to happen, people are too entrenched in their defaults. You have to appeal to people's wants and desires and bend them towards your own goals. Impossible Foods and Beyond Meat (and now Micro Meat, etc) have got it spot on: economically target the incentives of wanting to eat meat but make them out of non-sentient substances like plants or bacteria growing muscle cells.
That people still consider that everyone will go vegan or stop eating meat altogether is a fantastical view of the world, it has no basis in true reality. There will be more people contributing towards the lessening of the suffering of animals in the next few years via eating these non-sentient substitutes than has ever been achieved in the last century of the modern vegan movement, simply because it seems now finally that larger human incentives are being targeted directly, which is much likelier to effect change than individualistic pandering.
People are driven by incentives. People like meat, so instead of asking them to stop eating meat, which most won't do, make it a better option that fits with whatever the asker's goals are. In this case, you'd want people to care about animals or decrease environmental effects, so the way to do that while also considering people's incentives of loving meat is to have lab grown meat, or something close enough like plant-based meat substitutes that taste like meat.
You will never get anything done by appealing to individuals to change their habits wholesale, that's just not going to happen, people are too entrenched in their defaults. You have to appeal to people's wants and desires and bend them towards your own goals. Impossible Foods and Beyond Meat (and now Micro Meat, etc) have got it spot on: economically target the incentives of wanting to eat meat but make them out of non-sentient substances like plants or bacteria growing muscle cells.
That people still consider that everyone will go vegan or stop eating meat altogether is a fantastical view of the world, it has no basis in true reality. There will be more people contributing towards the lessening of the suffering of animals in the next few years via eating these non-sentient substitutes than has ever been achieved in the last century of the modern vegan movement, simply because it seems now finally that larger human incentives are being targeted directly, which is much likelier to effect change than individualistic pandering.
It’s even simpler than that.
There are some people who simply don’t function as well when they don’t eat meat. “But I’m vegan and I do just fine, in fact it I feel better then when I was eating meat”. I don’t doubt you, but I also don’t doubt the ex-vegans who tried and tried, but just felt awful and tired until they reintroduced meat. Different people have different metabolisms, and some people just can’t properly digest certain foods for some reason.
Meat has a much higher concentration of protein and iron than vegan food. Even foods like tofu and seitan (sold refrigerated at grocery stores) are only 50% protein while chicken breast is around 90% and lean fish is almost 100%. The only vegan alternatives which do have a comparable ratio (protein powder, TVP) are basically pure protein extracted from vegetables, the quality and bioavailability doesn’t compare (apparently the human body is bad at absorbing pure nutrients vs. “natural” food that contains them). Many ex-vegans have been consistently anemic, even while taking iron supplements, until they re-introduced meat.
There are some people who simply don’t function as well when they don’t eat meat. “But I’m vegan and I do just fine, in fact it I feel better then when I was eating meat”. I don’t doubt you, but I also don’t doubt the ex-vegans who tried and tried, but just felt awful and tired until they reintroduced meat. Different people have different metabolisms, and some people just can’t properly digest certain foods for some reason.
Meat has a much higher concentration of protein and iron than vegan food. Even foods like tofu and seitan (sold refrigerated at grocery stores) are only 50% protein while chicken breast is around 90% and lean fish is almost 100%. The only vegan alternatives which do have a comparable ratio (protein powder, TVP) are basically pure protein extracted from vegetables, the quality and bioavailability doesn’t compare (apparently the human body is bad at absorbing pure nutrients vs. “natural” food that contains them). Many ex-vegans have been consistently anemic, even while taking iron supplements, until they re-introduced meat.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6893534/
This review debunks the "bioavailability" and "quality" claims quite easily.
"bioavailability" (pdcaas diaas) is a contrived measure of protein source completeness made up to characterize protein issues of starving humans. It was also calibrated on rats and pigs, not humans. The "complete protein" misinformation is everywhere. Even on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_protein (edit: now I see that someone recently changed the statement to "adequate proportion" while previously it was just referencing that it contains all 9 essential amino acids).
All plants contain all essential amino acids, including green grass. Completeness in case of no starvation does not mean a thing. If you are eating 3000kcal of wheat every day, protein is no longer a worry, despite wheat having a 25% made-up bioavailability measure that was deduced by checking what happens to nitrogen in a live pig.
The protein "concentration" is just not true. Chicken breast does not have 90g of protein in 100g of chicken breast. 35g of protein in 100g of raw soybean. You will have to find a really rare steak of 100g to top that.
> Many ex-vegans have been consistently anemic, even while taking iron supplements, until they re-introduced meat.
This is not at all the conclusion of peer reviewed articles. Increased occurrence of nutrient deficiencies in vegan populations does not exist. Some people get deficiencies on any diet, and this is also the case for diets that have low-calorie high-volume foods like plants. Nothing special about that. People need to eat more volume but rarely do so. Similarly, they need to eat more calories. Talking about micronutrients in a world with no starvation is unnecessary. If you're eating a variety of plants, enough calories, it is certain you are consuming all of the necessary nutrients and protein. If you want to do powerlifting, marathon running, you will need to adjust your diet, whatever diet it is.
This review debunks the "bioavailability" and "quality" claims quite easily.
"bioavailability" (pdcaas diaas) is a contrived measure of protein source completeness made up to characterize protein issues of starving humans. It was also calibrated on rats and pigs, not humans. The "complete protein" misinformation is everywhere. Even on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_protein (edit: now I see that someone recently changed the statement to "adequate proportion" while previously it was just referencing that it contains all 9 essential amino acids).
All plants contain all essential amino acids, including green grass. Completeness in case of no starvation does not mean a thing. If you are eating 3000kcal of wheat every day, protein is no longer a worry, despite wheat having a 25% made-up bioavailability measure that was deduced by checking what happens to nitrogen in a live pig.
The protein "concentration" is just not true. Chicken breast does not have 90g of protein in 100g of chicken breast. 35g of protein in 100g of raw soybean. You will have to find a really rare steak of 100g to top that.
> Many ex-vegans have been consistently anemic, even while taking iron supplements, until they re-introduced meat.
This is not at all the conclusion of peer reviewed articles. Increased occurrence of nutrient deficiencies in vegan populations does not exist. Some people get deficiencies on any diet, and this is also the case for diets that have low-calorie high-volume foods like plants. Nothing special about that. People need to eat more volume but rarely do so. Similarly, they need to eat more calories. Talking about micronutrients in a world with no starvation is unnecessary. If you're eating a variety of plants, enough calories, it is certain you are consuming all of the necessary nutrients and protein. If you want to do powerlifting, marathon running, you will need to adjust your diet, whatever diet it is.
I think you misunderstood the protein concentration concerns. People are concerned about the ratio of calories from protein to calories from other macronutrients. In the case of beans like edamame, the concentration of fiber becomes relevant as well.
In contrast, chicken breast is nearly entirely calories from protein and very low fiber. Replacing some chicken breast with soy makes sense, but your fiber budget would cap out quickly and that would leave no room for other fiber rich foods like fruits and leafy green vegetables.
In contrast, chicken breast is nearly entirely calories from protein and very low fiber. Replacing some chicken breast with soy makes sense, but your fiber budget would cap out quickly and that would leave no room for other fiber rich foods like fruits and leafy green vegetables.
There was an explicit mention of protein quality and bioavailability. Both terms are standard and widely used. If OP meant something different by these terms, then fine. There's a minor loss of protein that is trapped in fibre for most plant foods that humans eat.
There is small amount of fiber in tofu, seitan, tempeh or other soy derivatives.
The "protein concentration" was mentioned together with iron, as if it is a problem of deficiency, not in the context of obsessive compulsive dieting by tweaking your macros to achieve the best results.
I am not sure the fiber budget you mention is a reality. There is no threshold where your body will stop behaving if you consume too much fiber.
There is small amount of fiber in tofu, seitan, tempeh or other soy derivatives.
The "protein concentration" was mentioned together with iron, as if it is a problem of deficiency, not in the context of obsessive compulsive dieting by tweaking your macros to achieve the best results.
I am not sure the fiber budget you mention is a reality. There is no threshold where your body will stop behaving if you consume too much fiber.
Some people have significant health problems if they eat to much fiber. They are literally on a low fiber diet as a medical matter.
The rest of us have lower GI problems of some sort if we go too much over the daily recommended amount. That can cause significant practical and social problems. But you are correct that we probably won't die. It could be painful in some cases, though, and that would be enough.
The rest of us have lower GI problems of some sort if we go too much over the daily recommended amount. That can cause significant practical and social problems. But you are correct that we probably won't die. It could be painful in some cases, though, and that would be enough.
I'm one of those people who genuinely function better with a high-meat diet.
The irony being that I absolutely love veggies of all kinds, and would have no trouble eating vegetarian, if it weren't for the side effects on my health. I'd be thrilled to try lab meat!
The irony being that I absolutely love veggies of all kinds, and would have no trouble eating vegetarian, if it weren't for the side effects on my health. I'd be thrilled to try lab meat!
Why does a food need to contain 90% or 100% protein? I think many people vastly overestimate how much protein they need.
It's not true that by weight chicken breast has higher concentration of protein than beans.
100g of raw beans, or 100g of raw lentils, has more grams of protein than a chicken breast. 100g of raw soybeans has more grams of protein than same amount of beef.
Of course, "raw" is the catch word, because when cooked, beans/lentils fill with water and then you might claim that concentration has been lowered but the amount of protein stays the same (nothing is lost by cooking).
100g of raw beans, or 100g of raw lentils, has more grams of protein than a chicken breast. 100g of raw soybeans has more grams of protein than same amount of beef.
Of course, "raw" is the catch word, because when cooked, beans/lentils fill with water and then you might claim that concentration has been lowered but the amount of protein stays the same (nothing is lost by cooking).
Protein:Fat+Carb ratio is what matters when talking about protein concentration.
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Define "need." Sure, I could live off bread and water, but if I want optimal function, I have found that a high protein diet is the silver bullet.
Once you discovered that a high protein diet worked for you, how many other diets/options did you try?
I'm a greybeard so I've had lots of time to try different diet+exercise programs. I was a serious cyclist for a couple decades and during that time, I tied high carb, vegetarian and the 40/30/30 diet that was trendy back in the 90s. Despite being much younger and burning a large # of calories, I still had persistent belly fat, which I attribute to the large # of carbs I inhaled on the bike. 40/30/30 worked better all around though. When I started lifting I went to .8grams of protein per LB of bodyweight and haven't felt the need to try anything else.
I know a lot of people who have had success maintaining fitness goals on a high protein diet, including people who struggle with obesity.
I'd say that latter case especially counts as a need.
I'd say that latter case especially counts as a need.
>Meat has a much higher concentration of protein and iron than vegan food.
Exactly this. The whole point is the Protein:Fat+Carb ratio and vegan options just don't come close. My diet has me eating ~150 grams of protein a day. If I were vegan, I'd be consuming an insane amount of carbs and/or fat along with that protein. My high protein diet combined with weight lifting is the only thing that keeps the dad bod at bay.
Exactly this. The whole point is the Protein:Fat+Carb ratio and vegan options just don't come close. My diet has me eating ~150 grams of protein a day. If I were vegan, I'd be consuming an insane amount of carbs and/or fat along with that protein. My high protein diet combined with weight lifting is the only thing that keeps the dad bod at bay.
My diet is roughly 40% protein, 35% fat, 25% carbs. It’s extremely high in protein as I’m on a 20% calorie deficit, aiming for at least 1.2g protein per lb lean body weight, 35% fat preferring it to carbs and making up the remaining calories with carbs. I prefer fat over carbs as my body hangs on to carbs and doing a metabolic test was told I would be better with higher fat to carb ratio based on my stats and goal of getting leaner while maintaining muscle.
I’ve been planning meals using linear programming with the Simplex algorithm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplex_algorithm) to calculate the optimal ingredients/quantities to hit my macro goals while minimising total calories.
From playing about it’s impossible for me to hit my macro goals using a pure vegan/vegetarian whole food diet. To hit my protein goals my carb ratio would need to go way up and I’d then need to lower the fat percentage and even then I’d likely be in a caloric surplus. I could lower the protein proportion to try and hit the total calorie goal but then I’d likely be in a catabolic state and loose muscle mass.
I really wanted to eat less meat just for the fact meat costs more and as a plus eating less lowers my environmental impact. When plugging in the numbers with simplex it becomes very apparent it’s extremely hard to get the nutritional bang for your buck you get from meat. For the average person not interested in strength training or body fat percentage it’s probably not as big a deal but the fact remains it’s extremely hard to get specific macro targets without meat.
I’ve been planning meals using linear programming with the Simplex algorithm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplex_algorithm) to calculate the optimal ingredients/quantities to hit my macro goals while minimising total calories.
From playing about it’s impossible for me to hit my macro goals using a pure vegan/vegetarian whole food diet. To hit my protein goals my carb ratio would need to go way up and I’d then need to lower the fat percentage and even then I’d likely be in a caloric surplus. I could lower the protein proportion to try and hit the total calorie goal but then I’d likely be in a catabolic state and loose muscle mass.
I really wanted to eat less meat just for the fact meat costs more and as a plus eating less lowers my environmental impact. When plugging in the numbers with simplex it becomes very apparent it’s extremely hard to get the nutritional bang for your buck you get from meat. For the average person not interested in strength training or body fat percentage it’s probably not as big a deal but the fact remains it’s extremely hard to get specific macro targets without meat.
I did competitive powerlifting for a while and am still an avid stength trainer. I didn't go full vegan, but my wife did, and there for a time my diet mostly aligned to hers because she was doing the shopping while I was working. Overtime I started to get a lot of minor injuries out of nowhere. I tried doing a vegetarian diet and tried my damndest to get all the nutrients without meat. But after some time I always felt full but malnourished. It is hard to describe. I broke eventually and spent about 3 weeks eating some red meat every day until I felt like my normal self again. I still try to minimize my meat consumption, but I've definitely learned to notice a threshold where I need to supplement my doet with meat on occasion.
I fear that often the vegan community insists that these lifestyle changes are universally easy. It probably doesn't help that many of the vegan activists make a part of their living by being vegan activists, which gives them flexibility to micromanage their diet. But for the gentleman at the lumber yard, it isn't so easy.
I'm excited to see cultured meat make some headway and hope the ventures in this space are successful. I've been watching for some time.
I fear that often the vegan community insists that these lifestyle changes are universally easy. It probably doesn't help that many of the vegan activists make a part of their living by being vegan activists, which gives them flexibility to micromanage their diet. But for the gentleman at the lumber yard, it isn't so easy.
I'm excited to see cultured meat make some headway and hope the ventures in this space are successful. I've been watching for some time.
How is an example of doing a tail activity like competitive powerlifting and the anecdote of underperforming in the activity on a vegan diet relevant?
I am pretty sure that gentlemen at the lumber yard do not have 300kg deadlift events and are not competing.
It is well known that diet has very little to do with progress for an amateur athlete. Consistency is the biggest factor in long term success. If you want to eek out the most out of your body, then you might want to optimize, but then you're already deviating to obsessive behavior.
Yeah, if you want to increase your squat by 20% short-term, you're going to have to eat more food and be obsessive about it, but if you're fine with consistent training over a span of 10-20 years, there's no reason to stress too much about diet.
When I hear people talking about diet and "optimal performance", I always wonder what the hell are they doing that they need to optimally perform. Like, what exactly is optimal performance of a sedentary programmer that maintains elasticsearch clusters? What, he feels tired sooner if he's on a vegan diet instead of something else?
I am pretty sure that gentlemen at the lumber yard do not have 300kg deadlift events and are not competing.
It is well known that diet has very little to do with progress for an amateur athlete. Consistency is the biggest factor in long term success. If you want to eek out the most out of your body, then you might want to optimize, but then you're already deviating to obsessive behavior.
Yeah, if you want to increase your squat by 20% short-term, you're going to have to eat more food and be obsessive about it, but if you're fine with consistent training over a span of 10-20 years, there's no reason to stress too much about diet.
When I hear people talking about diet and "optimal performance", I always wonder what the hell are they doing that they need to optimally perform. Like, what exactly is optimal performance of a sedentary programmer that maintains elasticsearch clusters? What, he feels tired sooner if he's on a vegan diet instead of something else?
I’d be curious about other mental health / unprocessed traumas that the ex vegans hadn’t addressed.
I wonder if there will be a category between vegetarian and vegan where it consists of vegan & lab-grown, so no animal is that impacted (it's my understanding lab grown is far better than current practices in the dairy industry, for example).
The blood or tissue needed to seed the process means it will never be considered vegan.
Sure! But it's 'less' than a dairy farm, which is why I wonder if there could be a middle ground. Also, I saw a new company makes lab-grown nuggets from proteins found in discard chicken feathers. That must be getting close enough to some Vegans considering it is acceptable. I have a friend who's a vegan who said they'd happily eat a steak if the cow fell onto a BBQ in such a way it cut a nice cut of sirloin that perfectly cooked, so there is definitely a tipping point somewhere of what's acceptable and what isn't. If the source cells are taken from an animal in a way a Vegan finds acceptable then surely all byproducts from that point on are okay.
Thank you for this! Totally agree!
!meat != vegan
Hey! Bioengineering background here, how do you all embed the cells within the scaffold? Is your approach similar to other bioprinting approaches (initial cells seeded via extrusion, inkjet, or laser assisted deposition)? At first I would think this could be done with some sort of printable collagen scaffold but I'm curious for what your approach would be.
In addition, as someone that is involved in therapeutics, I'm not too well versed in this space but was curious hearing from your perspective: How close would you say we are to being able to use FBS free media to culture meat at scale?
Very good questions there! 1) Yes, our process is similar to bioprinting but it is much more scalable than typical bioprinting. Because this is our proprietary tech I can't say much more than that at this point:) 2) We are currently still using some gelatin in our scaffold which is animal derived but of course we are putting a lot of effort into making it completely animal free asap. 3) There are companies who are focusing on the replacement of FBS and they are moving into relatively scaled processes now. So I would say we are close! Let us know if you have any follow up questions :)
“Fetal bovine serum (FBS) is a ubiquitously used essential supplement in cell culture media. However, there are serious scientific and ethical concerns about the use of FBS regarding its harvest and production.”
From an abstract of a research paper regarding FBS-free media.
From an abstract of a research paper regarding FBS-free media.
For those who have never heard of FBS, the "ethical concern" is that FBS is made by slaughtering pregnant cows, cutting the calf fetus from the cow, and then draining the blood from the fetus by sticking a needle in its heart. When I first read about that I was a bit shocked, even though I'm not a vegetarian and have even worked with FBS during a lab at university, blissfully unaware how they made that yellow fluid.
Wow. And I thought a komodo dragon eating a pregnant deer with fetus was the worst I have seen or imagined. Ethics aside, how do the people doing the procedure stand it without going crazy.
I'll answer your question, but it's really pretty simple. It's the same way that people have done all sorts of terrible things since the dawn of man.
Someone had to slaughter the livestock. Hunters ran down animals and killed them when they became exhausted, and to be a bit more blunt, we kill each other in wars and senseless violence every day. Look no further than our current conflict in Ukraine to see what that's like, even amidst our advanced society.
Humans have an enormous capacity for empathy and kindness, but we're also capable of some truly horrific acts if the circumstances require or demand it.
Someone had to slaughter the livestock. Hunters ran down animals and killed them when they became exhausted, and to be a bit more blunt, we kill each other in wars and senseless violence every day. Look no further than our current conflict in Ukraine to see what that's like, even amidst our advanced society.
Humans have an enormous capacity for empathy and kindness, but we're also capable of some truly horrific acts if the circumstances require or demand it.
> Humans have an enormous capacity for empathy and kindness, but we're also capable of some truly horrific acts.
(fixed that for you)
(fixed that for you)
Yes, exactly, getting rid of FBS is crucial for making cultivated meat more ethical and sustainable than traditional meat!
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Interesting stuff!
I've read that contamination is a huge issue, essentially, bacteria grows much better and faster at the substrate than mammalian cells. So, how do you avoid inadvertently cultivating smelly plaques instead of delicious meat?
Or is that not really an issue and I'm misinformed?
Best of luck. We really need it.
I've read that contamination is a huge issue, essentially, bacteria grows much better and faster at the substrate than mammalian cells. So, how do you avoid inadvertently cultivating smelly plaques instead of delicious meat?
Or is that not really an issue and I'm misinformed?
Best of luck. We really need it.
Contamination is definitely a problem for cultivated meat. It is one of the leading risks when scaling because if the reactor is contaminated at all, you could lose entire batches of meat, and as you can imagine, this is a huge cost hit. To avoid this, cultivated meat is grown in sterile, clean environments. The same kind of equipment you'd find in a hospital (autoclaves) is used to sterilize the equipment common in cultivated meat. There are two basic ideas for preventing contamination. One is to use single use bioreactors, which are sterile after manufacturing. This is extremely common in the biopharma industry, and is preferred because it doesn't require complex cleaning systems. Of course, anything that is single use ends up in a landfill, so thats part of the trade off as well. The other option is to use reusable bioreactors. These require a steam clean after each batch, which adds to the overall operational and build costs of the reactor. This can also generate waste products which have to be handled.
Maintaining cleanliness is a challenge, but with proper laboratory practices, and the right kind of bioreactor, contamination should be less of a problem.
I'm also assuming that with your system engineering background, you're also limiting personnel access to the reactors or better, to the rooms where they will be located as well as all security measures to avoid social engineering hacking into the facilities, right Vincent?
Congrats on the initiative, just absolutely fantastic!
Congrats on the initiative, just absolutely fantastic!
Of course! As the factories get larger and larger, security becomes even more important, and traditional methods such as limiting access, badge-in/ badge-out, and access codes would be utilized.
Do these sterility requirements have an impact on the food safety concerns for the final product?
e.g. does the meat end up either completely ruined vs. totally safe to eat raw?
Just curious, I have no plans to eat raw cultivated meat :)
> I have no plans to eat raw cultivated meat :)
This could actually be one of the new doors it opens. Perfectly sterile sashimi can travel farther.
This could actually be one of the new doors it opens. Perfectly sterile sashimi can travel farther.
One of the most popular articles on HN with a whopping 900+ comments was about exactly this issue.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28621288
According to Paul Wood, the threat of bacterial contamination makes cultivated meat extremely expensive and un-cost-competitive.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28621288
According to Paul Wood, the threat of bacterial contamination makes cultivated meat extremely expensive and un-cost-competitive.
As I understand it your technology is in part about providing a scaffolding that
enables normal animal cells to grow. But there's a question that I genuinely think is important, but risk sounding like a troll. The qualities of a successful cancerous cell, to grow without restraint, unimpeded by the density of other cells or whether the cell is attached to a surface, will probably be even more successful in a bio-reactor than they would be in an organism where unconstrained growth will undermine the health of the the animal and the supply of energy and nutrients to the cell. This leads me to wonder whether cells with cancer like qualities - deranged karyotypes and unregulated cell division will become common in meat cell cultures. Does this seem reasonable? Is it a health issue, or do we perhaps not know yet? It's certainly a bit creepy.
Some thoughts. Tumors in muscular tissue are relatively rare. The growth cycle in these bioreactors should be short, giving less probability of runaway mutations. It’s a hyper growth medium with supernatural levels of growth hormones, so tumors may actually be favored. Are tumoral mammal cells integrated by humans when infested raw?
> Are tumoral mammal cells integrated by humans when infested raw?
In humans eating another species? It seems unlikely, but ingestion of live cells is one of the mechanisms have been proposed for the transmission of Devil Facial Tumour Disease, in which live cancer cells are transferred between individual Tasmanian Devils.
(just so you know before clicking it's pretty nasty) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil_facial_tumour_disease
In humans eating another species? It seems unlikely, but ingestion of live cells is one of the mechanisms have been proposed for the transmission of Devil Facial Tumour Disease, in which live cancer cells are transferred between individual Tasmanian Devils.
(just so you know before clicking it's pretty nasty) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil_facial_tumour_disease
a tumor burger? doesnt sound very appetizing.
I encountered tumors in regular meat of many varieties multiple times. For some reason, pork has the biggest probability of tumors.
This is very interesting from a society/technology perspective. I support your efforts! I do have one or two fundamental questions about this industry/space, not necessarily related to this company, but this might be a good place to ask.
I am a vegan of about 10 years now, and as (potentially) a constituent of the addressable market, here's why I'm not going to buy lab-grown "meat": my primary motivations for dietary veganism are to do with non-renewable resource consumption: potable water, land use, oil/energy, emissions, etc. Traditional industrial meat consumption uses around 10x land/energy/ghg emissions as plant crops per calorie, and about 100x the water (or more). It's not clear to me how the lab-grown meat addresses these resource consumption considerations.
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> Cultivating meat is similar to brewing beer
As a dietary vegan I don't know the first thing about meat, but I do know a little about home-brewing. In the case of home-brewing wine or beer, at least for me, it's about ~5x volume in water consumption (~5L of water makes 1L wine), including cleaning, mixing, etc. This is on a tiny scale; I'm sure if water consumption was optimized for you could do even less. Is cultivating lab meat closer in water use to brewing beer, or traditional meat farming? I'm also curious about the energy input; how many calories of energy in -> calories out?
If there are order-of-magnitude gains to be made in non-renewable resource consumption, I can get behind this even if I personally find it a little gross (sorry). At a small scale, I don't doubt the resource consumption is non-optimal, but how much can be gained by scale/optimization?
I am a vegan of about 10 years now, and as (potentially) a constituent of the addressable market, here's why I'm not going to buy lab-grown "meat": my primary motivations for dietary veganism are to do with non-renewable resource consumption: potable water, land use, oil/energy, emissions, etc. Traditional industrial meat consumption uses around 10x land/energy/ghg emissions as plant crops per calorie, and about 100x the water (or more). It's not clear to me how the lab-grown meat addresses these resource consumption considerations.
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> Cultivating meat is similar to brewing beer
As a dietary vegan I don't know the first thing about meat, but I do know a little about home-brewing. In the case of home-brewing wine or beer, at least for me, it's about ~5x volume in water consumption (~5L of water makes 1L wine), including cleaning, mixing, etc. This is on a tiny scale; I'm sure if water consumption was optimized for you could do even less. Is cultivating lab meat closer in water use to brewing beer, or traditional meat farming? I'm also curious about the energy input; how many calories of energy in -> calories out?
If there are order-of-magnitude gains to be made in non-renewable resource consumption, I can get behind this even if I personally find it a little gross (sorry). At a small scale, I don't doubt the resource consumption is non-optimal, but how much can be gained by scale/optimization?
I think of lab-grown meat as harm reduction. It will almost certainly be more resource-intensive than a vegan diet, but less so than raising an entire animal for the fraction that becomes edible.
It will also produce less waste, or at least better-controlled waste, than raising an entire animal. But again, more than a purely plant-based diet.
I can't give you numbers, but really, I can't see any reason for you to switch away from a vegan diet if you're satisfied with it. However, a lot of other people will switch from an animal-based diet to one that is somewhat more responsible and causes considerably less pain and suffering.
All meat eaters live with a certain cognitive dissonance on that, which most simply ignore because they consider plant-based diets insufficient. And as a vegan you know that a healthy plant-based diet isn't always easy -- though made a little easier recently by some highly processed products that aren't really all that much better for health or the environment.
It will also produce less waste, or at least better-controlled waste, than raising an entire animal. But again, more than a purely plant-based diet.
I can't give you numbers, but really, I can't see any reason for you to switch away from a vegan diet if you're satisfied with it. However, a lot of other people will switch from an animal-based diet to one that is somewhat more responsible and causes considerably less pain and suffering.
All meat eaters live with a certain cognitive dissonance on that, which most simply ignore because they consider plant-based diets insufficient. And as a vegan you know that a healthy plant-based diet isn't always easy -- though made a little easier recently by some highly processed products that aren't really all that much better for health or the environment.
> dietary vegan
Plant based is probably the most common term for what you're trying to describe. Veganism is the ethical position.
Plant based is probably the most common term for what you're trying to describe. Veganism is the ethical position.
You can check this chart comparing Meat/Lab meat/Plant based protein https://agronomics.im/benefits-of-cultivated-meat/ environmental impact
Congratulations on the launch, I genuinely think this ranks among the most positive high-impact work one could be doing right now. The scale of animal cruelty is tremendous. Disrupting the meat industry is so important. Do let us know if you need any software engineers!
Thank you so much! We are extremely passionate about this and its great to see so much support here! Even though software engineering is not something we need right away we are very happy to connect with passionate people for future opportunities! You can drop us an email if you want to stay in touch!
Impressive initiative. I understand too little of this matter to judge the merits of your approach. However, it is clear to me that if cultivated meat achieves feature parity with "regular" meat and becomes cheaper to produce, it will be the biggest revolution in food since the invention of agriculture, and a possible world saver. Thank you for trying! :-)
Exactly that's what is driving us! Thank you for your comment!
I'm currently on sabbatical, and I'm thinking about changing careers away from cybersecurity sales engineering and towards a career with cultivated meat. I have no biology background. Vincent, how did you prepare for this endeavor? Did you go back to school? If so, at what level and for how long?
I would relish the chance to dive into a new technical field using my existing sales skills with tons of new on-the-job training, but it feels like too much hubris on my side to go without any schooling background. Help me connect the dots, please?
I would relish the chance to dive into a new technical field using my existing sales skills with tons of new on-the-job training, but it feels like too much hubris on my side to go without any schooling background. Help me connect the dots, please?
@asmertgen thoughts on this research https://thecounter.org/lab-grown-cultivated-meat-cost-at-sca... ?
This is a very good article. I place lab-grown in the same mind bucket as carbon capturing. Both are futuristic technologies that don't exist today (not really) but get a lot of media hype. For both, there's a much easier solution that exists today (e.g, switching to renewable energies, switching to plant-based meats) that are great and are also gaining a lot of traction. With both tech, it's unclear if they will ever work at scale. For both cases, it's now more important than ever that we reduce emissions today, and not hope for a maybe technofix in the future.
I don't mean to dunk on your research and proprietary tech. I'm just often pissed to see that these kind of tech is completely overblown and overhyped in the mainstream and media. The worst part is, it gives people an excuse to not change their behavior today: "I'll switch to lab-grown meat when they sell", "I won't cut back on flying, doesn't matter since they will recapture that carbon anyways very soon".
I don't mean to dunk on your research and proprietary tech. I'm just often pissed to see that these kind of tech is completely overblown and overhyped in the mainstream and media. The worst part is, it gives people an excuse to not change their behavior today: "I'll switch to lab-grown meat when they sell", "I won't cut back on flying, doesn't matter since they will recapture that carbon anyways very soon".
For carbon capture, I don't think its the case that equivalent technology exists today. On our current trajectory the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere is going to keep going up for the next 10-20 years, regardless of how fast renewable energy is deployed. And to be in the best position to stop and reverse CO2 levels we need to start developing carbon capture today, for it to be ready to deploy at scale in a decade or two.
I get the risk of giving people permission not to change behavior, but I don't think we actually see that happening today. Tesla sells every car it produces, and more and more governments and companies are making meaningful climate commitments and starting to follow through on them.
To address climate change we need all hands on deck, and that means exploring every possible approach to the problem. We can walk and chew gum at the same time, and don't need to write off technologies when they are in their infancy.
I get the risk of giving people permission not to change behavior, but I don't think we actually see that happening today. Tesla sells every car it produces, and more and more governments and companies are making meaningful climate commitments and starting to follow through on them.
To address climate change we need all hands on deck, and that means exploring every possible approach to the problem. We can walk and chew gum at the same time, and don't need to write off technologies when they are in their infancy.
Asking/forcing people to change their behavior doesn't have a great track record. Given that constraint, putting effort into tech like this makes sense, especially if it's in addition to making behavior changes less difficult, like you propose. It's not an either-or.
I didn't say we need to ask people to change their behavior. I know that that's futile. My point is that great alternatives already exist, that don't demand a behavior change. For example, renewable energies and plant-based meats (Impossible and others).
You did, though, it's right in your comment: "excuse to not change their behavior today."
And no, plant-based meat isn't there yet. It's something I often choose myself for environmental reasons, but it's still strictly worse than real beef. And non-ground meat substitutes aren't even in the ballpark.
And no, plant-based meat isn't there yet. It's something I often choose myself for environmental reasons, but it's still strictly worse than real beef. And non-ground meat substitutes aren't even in the ballpark.
I'd bet you a lot of money that most people can't make out an Impossible burger vs. a beef burger in a blind taste. Tasting has to do a lot with psychology (see Pepsi vs. Coke blind tastes), and that's why people think plant-based meat sucks (there's a big variance in quality, agreed). Lab-grown meat won't change this fact.
We're at the point of disagreeing over opinion, but I'm pretty confident you'd lose that bet :) I say this as someone who usually orders the Impossible option. It is the first plant-based meat I've had that actually crosses the threshold into "good enough," but it's still noticeably inferior to a good beef burger. Most plant-based meats genuinely do suck, I prefer just forgoing those and doing a mostly-vegetarian diet, personally.
I think lab-grown meat has a much better chance than plant-based meats of satisfying the "want" of meat, while drastically lowering the environmental effects of eating meat. And again, I think pursuing both options is the best choice. I eat less meat thanks to Impossible, and I hope they continue to succeed.
I think lab-grown meat has a much better chance than plant-based meats of satisfying the "want" of meat, while drastically lowering the environmental effects of eating meat. And again, I think pursuing both options is the best choice. I eat less meat thanks to Impossible, and I hope they continue to succeed.
These both demand behaviour changes. Using renewable energy is a behaviour change (although no one's running their own oil refinery in their backyard) even if it's at a different tier and eating plant based meats is CERTAINLY a behaviour change. I think asking everyone to start eating mediocre faux-ground-beef is a pretty big behaviour change.
Following that logic, eating lab-grown meat will is also a behavior change. So, my point still stands.
I didn't say it wasn't a behaviour change. This was a response to your statement that your solutions didn't demand behaviour changes, when they both demand significant behaviour changes.
My argument, which I have yet to state in this dialogue, is that lab grown meat offers the opportunity to provide an experience very similar to eating "real" meat at a lower cost to the consumer, thus making it a viable alternative in ways that today's current plant based meat substitutes aren't.
I am definitely open to plant based meat substitutes taking that role, but in their current form that would still require a large behaviour change by a large percentage of the population.
Now renewable energy is different discussion and that requires a much smaller number of people to make (albeit much larger) behaviour changes.
My argument, which I have yet to state in this dialogue, is that lab grown meat offers the opportunity to provide an experience very similar to eating "real" meat at a lower cost to the consumer, thus making it a viable alternative in ways that today's current plant based meat substitutes aren't.
I am definitely open to plant based meat substitutes taking that role, but in their current form that would still require a large behaviour change by a large percentage of the population.
Now renewable energy is different discussion and that requires a much smaller number of people to make (albeit much larger) behaviour changes.
Fair enough. But the reality is that lab grown meat doesn't exist, so we are not certain how it will taste. Plant-based meats have come a long way in the past 5 years. Let's see where they are in another 5 years, at which point lab grown meat still won't exist at a scale and price point that's available to the mainstream consumer.
I don't have anything against people pursuing lab grown meat research. I'm just a bit pissed that "futuristic" solutions get so much more mainstream media attention than practical solutions that already have an impact today.
I don't have anything against people pursuing lab grown meat research. I'm just a bit pissed that "futuristic" solutions get so much more mainstream media attention than practical solutions that already have an impact today.
Fair points. I like that we have lots of different smart people tackling the problem from different angles, though. I’m optimistic about technology here because I don’t think people will trade concrete quality of life now for abstract quality of life in the future.
What’s your favourite plant based meat? I’ll try it next time I go get groceries.
What’s your favourite plant based meat? I’ll try it next time I go get groceries.
Impossible is by far the best (I moved back to Europe couple of years ago and sadly they don't sell it here yet). I also heard their new nuggets are great, but haven't tried them yet.
Beyond Meat is also good, but I think Impossible is another ballgame.
Tofurkey also makes great cold cuts (haven't tried their bugers yet).
And then there are a bunch of smaller brands making great products, too. But it's a bit of a hit and miss with them, so you need to try a bunch to find something you like.
Beyond Meat is also good, but I think Impossible is another ballgame.
Tofurkey also makes great cold cuts (haven't tried their bugers yet).
And then there are a bunch of smaller brands making great products, too. But it's a bit of a hit and miss with them, so you need to try a bunch to find something you like.
Great question. We had this discussion internally quite a lot. Since my co-founder comes from launching rockets let me use this analogy: 20 years ago Elon Musk was though to be crazy when he wanted to build reusable rockets. But now it works. It took a lot of smart minds, effort and money. But they did it. We believe it will be the same with cultivated meat. Completely changing a system, in our case food system, is always a risk and a bit crazy. We agree that the hype is not great. We don't want to make to bold promises. But we do want to change something and we will work hard to make our part to change a system.
Do you have a clear ideas of what will enable your solution surpass the $50-chicken-nuggets unit economics mentioned? Is that a mid term goal of yours?
If a batch gets infected and must be discarded, how is it disposed of, and what are the environmental risks of that waste material? How is it sterilized before getting dumped? And where is it dumped?
HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28621288
Hi Anne-Sophie and Vincent, excellent post and congratulations on the launch! My main question is about the growth factors; I've heard that there's a few compounds used in these processes that really don't scale, fetal bovine serum being the biggest one right now. Do you have novel approaches to creating this? How will this scale in the future?
Thanks, best of luck!
Thanks, best of luck!
Thank you! For the growth factors, we do not have any plans currently for producing them in-house, however there are several companies within the industry (Future Fields for example) that are making great progress in developing animal-free growth factors. Right now, using precision fermentation seems to be the preferred method of production. This is essentially beer brewing but the yeast is modified to produce a certain protein/ growth factor. Since this process is yeast based, it should scale fairly well, as yeast is resistant to the stresses found inside the fermenters.
Harm is done to the ecosystem when we concentrate cows in one place and feed them chemically fortified slurry. When cows are allowed to graze pastures, they instead have a positive effect on the local ecosystem.
As such, I am extremely skeptical that the right way forward is to reduce and concentrate the essence of a cow into bioreactors and feed them chemically fortified slurry.
As such, I am extremely skeptical that the right way forward is to reduce and concentrate the essence of a cow into bioreactors and feed them chemically fortified slurry.
I don't think bioreactors produce giant lakes of shit[1], so from an ecological standpoint this will be an absolute win.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayGJ1YSfDXs&t=36s
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayGJ1YSfDXs&t=36s
What waste products do the bioreactors produce? How are they disposed?
As I said, concentrated feed operations are bad. That shit should be dispersed in a pasture, fertilizing it.
As I said, concentrated feed operations are bad. That shit should be dispersed in a pasture, fertilizing it.
I'm interested in those answers, too. I imagine it's much less waste because you can feed the cells just what they need to grow, instead of feeding the bacteria in the guts of an animal.
You ignored the part of the GP comment where they agreed with you. The point is that properly managed pasture increases fertility naturally. We need animals to fertilize, or every plant must be grown with synthetic products.
Excited for what's to come, best of success in your endeavor.
Looking at the comments they're a good insight into the challenges of what you're aiming to do. Don't get distracted by the criticism, you're solving for it.
"Just become vegan/vegetarian, don't waste your time creating new meat". If our civilization has the resources and talent to make what you're doing happen, then why not? It'll definitely help someone somewhere. Also, this could potentially have future applications in the biomedical industry. We should embrace tech R&D.
"The processes are currently expensive or use non-scalable elements (food/FBS)". Of course, this has to be solved. One step at a time, besides they're not the only startup working on an area of the cultivated meat value-chain.
Looking at the comments they're a good insight into the challenges of what you're aiming to do. Don't get distracted by the criticism, you're solving for it.
"Just become vegan/vegetarian, don't waste your time creating new meat". If our civilization has the resources and talent to make what you're doing happen, then why not? It'll definitely help someone somewhere. Also, this could potentially have future applications in the biomedical industry. We should embrace tech R&D.
"The processes are currently expensive or use non-scalable elements (food/FBS)". Of course, this has to be solved. One step at a time, besides they're not the only startup working on an area of the cultivated meat value-chain.
As a born vegetarian(Religious reasons), I wholeheartedly support this project. I am going to be secretly following your progress and cheering for you. Godspeed.
Thank you!
Hey, excuse my ignorance. How difficult is to procure food you use to grow cells? You mentioned insulin and such.
Can you comment on how "green" are those materials?
Can you comment on how "green" are those materials?
Great question! So the basic medium composition itself is fairly simple, but the growth factors can be difficult to make. There are many places along the supply chain that are strained due to recent events. Because of this, procuring the food is somewhat difficult, but should become easier in the future. Many companies within cultivated meat (such as Heuros, Multus, Future Fields) are also working on animal-free growth factors by using precision fermentation. Precision fermentation is essentially beer brewing, but the yeast is genetically modified to produce a certain growth factor. As for being green, the industry is trending towards trying to find ways to utilize plants as much as possible across production phases. Eventually, besides the initial cells, most cultivated meat production could rely on common plants for the nutrients and growth factors for the cells. This could drastically decrease overall emissions, and even make the products carbon-negative.
As someone who is eating closer to organic these days, the concept of lab grown meat is more horrifying to me than factory farming. That said, we try to eat the highest welfare meat we can find, which is typically slaughtered by family members.
How can all the chemicals and sterilising agents ever be more safe for consumption and environmentally friendly than animal grown alternatives?
How can all the chemicals and sterilising agents ever be more safe for consumption and environmentally friendly than animal grown alternatives?
I have also worked with bioreactors. Sounds like you have made some great progress. Just a couple thoughts:
1) there are plenty of other niches for microbe production that could possibly use the same technology. I am not suggesting you switch now, but something to keep in mind for the future. In my opinion, the current standard processes for working with bioreactors are slow and manual. I think there is a lot of room for efficiency improvements but it is rarely worth it for individual companies to make those investments.
2) Is all of the growth happening in a single bioreactor or do you have multiple sized bioreactors for different stages? I don't have a scientific background and I'm trying to understand the standard practices better.
edit: fixed typos.
1) there are plenty of other niches for microbe production that could possibly use the same technology. I am not suggesting you switch now, but something to keep in mind for the future. In my opinion, the current standard processes for working with bioreactors are slow and manual. I think there is a lot of room for efficiency improvements but it is rarely worth it for individual companies to make those investments.
2) Is all of the growth happening in a single bioreactor or do you have multiple sized bioreactors for different stages? I don't have a scientific background and I'm trying to understand the standard practices better.
edit: fixed typos.
We definitely agree with you that the reactors currently used in biopharma were not really meant for the level of production required to scale cultivated meat. As for the growth, typically you'll find what's called a "seed train" for growing cultivated meat. This is basically a series of reactors starting from a small flask around 10 mL and ending in a reactor greater than 20000L! The train might have reactors along the way, 10mL, 200mL, 4L, 80L, etc. until the final reactor volume is reached. Some of these reactors, especially the larger reactors near the end of the process, are meant to handle the cells at a specific stage in the lifecycle, such as maturing, where the cells grow in volume.
Ah, got it. It is an interesting detail of the process that I would have never thought of coming into the industry.
Thanks for the explanation.
Thanks for the explanation.
Can you share more about your ideas?
Which ideas do you mean? 1 or 2?
I realize now that I probably should have made two comments.
I realize now that I probably should have made two comments.
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I applaud your attempts to tackle such a big issue. I'm a meat eater but the sheer number of animals killed to satisfy our appetite for meat is pretty shocking.
My question is about nutrition and taste: does cultivated meat contain the same nutrition as animal meat?
For example, farm animals may be pasture-fed and reared outside. The meat will probably be expensive but of excellent quality. Or the farm animals may be reared in a industrial-scale farming process that produces cheap supermarket meat (i.e. what many of us buy and eat in the Western World). Given the nutrition and taste profile of these animals is different, how do you cultivate the meat to taste excellent and contain good nutrition? Thank you.
My question is about nutrition and taste: does cultivated meat contain the same nutrition as animal meat?
For example, farm animals may be pasture-fed and reared outside. The meat will probably be expensive but of excellent quality. Or the farm animals may be reared in a industrial-scale farming process that produces cheap supermarket meat (i.e. what many of us buy and eat in the Western World). Given the nutrition and taste profile of these animals is different, how do you cultivate the meat to taste excellent and contain good nutrition? Thank you.
Are you looking at how you make the scaffolds and making sure they're potentially vegan? A lot of vegetarians and vegans will be curious about lab-grown meat, but would be turned off if something like collagen was used as part of the scaffold.
Yes, we are in the process of finalizing our animal-free scaffold composition.
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Can you comment on the total carbon emission compared to traditional method of producing beef? Assuming you can use completely renewable sources for all the electricity needs, how much more carbon is emitted per kg meat produced?
Good Food Institute has a great write-up on the reduction of emissions and land use which can be found here (https://gfi.org/blog/cultivated-meat-lca-tea/). To summarize it, with renewables along the production chain, estimates for the reduction of greenhouse emissions/land use for chicken, pork and beef are 17%/63%, 52%/72%, and up to 92%/95% respectively.
May be not specific to your technology but a general question i have is how are the tissues and cells protected from bacteria? Does the growth medium contain antibiotics? If so, how is the final product separated from it.
I think this is liable to be an extremely confounding aspect of the venture - that meat naturally grows in the context of a living animals immune system which interfaces with the wider microbial reality. Diverse diseases arise and wane through extremely ancient dynamics which we are not close to having full knowledge or command over. I could not trust commercially driven scientific assurances from the present age, that food of all things can be mass produced safely in such a biologically novel scheme. It is not so long ago since all where shocked by the novel generation and danger of Prions in the food chain, some years later that "Junk DNA" is not in fact Junk, etc...
While some risk of strange new disease would still be chanced - it would be orders of magnitude less extreme if this cell cloning technology concentrated in early days, on mass producing leathers and furs, rather than the very matter we put into our living bodies.
While some risk of strange new disease would still be chanced - it would be orders of magnitude less extreme if this cell cloning technology concentrated in early days, on mass producing leathers and furs, rather than the very matter we put into our living bodies.
In research often antibiotics are added to avoid contamination from handling etc. However, large scale and automated production processes can be run antibiotic free because of their very controlled sterile environment. Then the product would also be antibiotic free.
its easy just add antibiotics to the slurry
Awesome to see a pivot to climate tech by folks deeply skilled and driven in the space. Thank you for your efforts!
> Traditional methods pour the proliferated cells on top of the scaffold and hope that they “stick”. This is easy, but results in tissues that aren’t uniform—in some places the cells attach well,
I watched a program where they were using this method to build a heart and appeared to be reasonably successful, but it is pot luck hoping some cells stick.
I guess getting cells to stick is one of the problems not cracked yet, so I wonder how stem cells know when to stick to an organ. I cant help but wonder if the cell sensing and signalling still has some secrets to give up.
> by shielding the cells within the scaffold. Novel.
My only concern with lab grown meat is will it contain enough nutrition? We see supermarkets and farmers interested in growing meat as quickly as possible so it doesnt contain the same nutrition, arguably less nutrition, than organically grown food from the 70's. For example, bacon (pig meat) contains less pantothenic acid as it helps to marbleise the meat but the animal will end up with fatty liver, and fat around the organs instead of under the skin. This then feeds into us, so some of the health complaints humans see are a result of how the food is grown (vegetable or animal). Here in the UK I've seen a suggestion that if everyone went vegetarian, we could free up 80% of the farmland.
I also know that supplements like Histidine will reduce red meat consumption, because dark meats are a source of histadine the precursor for histamine which helps white blood cells move through tissue. So I wonder if some of these supplements will end up in the lab grown meat?
I watched a program where they were using this method to build a heart and appeared to be reasonably successful, but it is pot luck hoping some cells stick.
I guess getting cells to stick is one of the problems not cracked yet, so I wonder how stem cells know when to stick to an organ. I cant help but wonder if the cell sensing and signalling still has some secrets to give up.
> by shielding the cells within the scaffold. Novel.
My only concern with lab grown meat is will it contain enough nutrition? We see supermarkets and farmers interested in growing meat as quickly as possible so it doesnt contain the same nutrition, arguably less nutrition, than organically grown food from the 70's. For example, bacon (pig meat) contains less pantothenic acid as it helps to marbleise the meat but the animal will end up with fatty liver, and fat around the organs instead of under the skin. This then feeds into us, so some of the health complaints humans see are a result of how the food is grown (vegetable or animal). Here in the UK I've seen a suggestion that if everyone went vegetarian, we could free up 80% of the farmland.
I also know that supplements like Histidine will reduce red meat consumption, because dark meats are a source of histadine the precursor for histamine which helps white blood cells move through tissue. So I wonder if some of these supplements will end up in the lab grown meat?
One thing that really interests me about cultivated meat is the potential for designer cuts that would be otherwise impossible (e.g. wagyu level marbled chicken, a beef ribeye with swirls of pork intermixed, etc). Specifically, I'm thinking of fine dining applications. Do you forsee these kinds of applications coming to life eventually, or am I misunderstanding the capability of the technology?
Hello and congratulations on launching!
1) It sounds like the scaffold+medium+environment is meant to replace a vascular network. Have you considered growing a vascular system in/around the muscle tissue (if that's possible)?
2) Assuming you get to bulk samples, are there any plans to "exercise" the muscle tissue (e.g. with electric stimulation) to reach a desired tenderness/texture?
3) Where are you based?
1) It sounds like the scaffold+medium+environment is meant to replace a vascular network. Have you considered growing a vascular system in/around the muscle tissue (if that's possible)?
2) Assuming you get to bulk samples, are there any plans to "exercise" the muscle tissue (e.g. with electric stimulation) to reach a desired tenderness/texture?
3) Where are you based?
Great questions!
1) Yes vascularization is one approach of many to get nutrients to cells in larger constructs. If you want that to be grown naturally by e.g. endothelial cells, this is a rather lengthy and tricky process, so not easy to scale. To start scaling faster the mixing in a bioreactor is easier.
2) Yes electric stimulation is a great tool to stimulate muscle which is important for texture etc. There are also other methods to get there where they basically stimulate themselves.
3) Monterrey, Mexico :)
Has anyone done a study where bioreactor meat is offered on actual restaurant menus to see how many people actually order it? Not actually offering it, but apologising to the customer if they order it and explaining the study.
I can't seem to find anything. I find it hard to get excited by technology development in this area without having confidence people will be interested in it.
Good luck anyway!
I can't seem to find anything. I find it hard to get excited by technology development in this area without having confidence people will be interested in it.
Good luck anyway!
Does the scaffold you use become dissolved during processing, or are edible and incorporated into a final product?
Great question: part of the scaffold will dissolve, part of it (edible materials) will be in the final product. The amount of it in the final product (basically the degradation kinetics) can be tuned depending on needs and desires
I applaud the ecological perspective, for other people - but I don't want to test this on myself until I've seen a couple of generations of it's impact on people's health.
Nothing personal, that's my opinion of most foods and health things, the effects take time to interact with complex systems, so I want things that have a visible history of generations to observe.
The more I've learned, the less I want to gamble about things we don't really know about but will become a part of my body.
Obviously food of today is a complex systems issue that's not possible to be absolute on to e.g. do what a culture did for the last few hundred years. Which is exactly why I want my own 'experiment' of my health to be based on simpler and better proven inputs.
Nothing personal, that's my opinion of most foods and health things, the effects take time to interact with complex systems, so I want things that have a visible history of generations to observe.
The more I've learned, the less I want to gamble about things we don't really know about but will become a part of my body.
Obviously food of today is a complex systems issue that's not possible to be absolute on to e.g. do what a culture did for the last few hundred years. Which is exactly why I want my own 'experiment' of my health to be based on simpler and better proven inputs.
I am very excited about the prospect of cultivated meat. It just makes so much more ethical, environmental and eventually economic sense. This innovation seems inevitable, but someone still has to figure out all the details. Sounds like you have some great insights.
I am rooting for you!
I am rooting for you!
Thank you!
If the goal is to replicate conventional meat in taste and texture, it is a really high bar. But I wonder what fraction of slaughtered animals are used for non-human consumption. Eg, cats won't care nearly as much as humans if it has the proper texture.
Great idea whose time has come. Some have estimated that up to 41% of land in the US is used for grazing and growing feed [0]. That's a horrible and damaging waste of resources.
One small suggestion, although you've included your contact info with your launch information, you might also want to include a direct link to your website.
[0] https://www.treehugger.com/land-contiguous-us-used-feed-live....
One small suggestion, although you've included your contact info with your launch information, you might also want to include a direct link to your website.
[0] https://www.treehugger.com/land-contiguous-us-used-feed-live....
Will be down voted for this. But here are my unsubstantiated comment:
If lab meat becomes equivalent in quality to animal meat the sum total energy will exceed the energy required to obtain animal meat. It's difficult to beat nature when energy efficiency is concerned.( same for for carbon capture). Also nature does it in the lest pollution manner that artificial processes will not be able to match. My argument is not nature-knows-best rather nature-is-excellent at something due to the trial/error nature of evolution over eons.
Two things.
First, there's no evolutionary pressure to minimize pollution, so I don't know why you'd assume that "nature does it in the lest pollution manner [sic] that artificial processes will not be able to match".
Secondly, even if nature is somehow more efficient than science can ever match for running an entire living creature, that's not what lab meat is doing. Almost everything an animal needs to do - think, feel, breathe, digest, move, maintain organs, and on and on and on - lab meat doesn't need to do. So potentially losses in efficiency for growing meat cells can be made up for by the fact that you're not doing any of the other things animals need to do besides growing meat cells.
First, there's no evolutionary pressure to minimize pollution, so I don't know why you'd assume that "nature does it in the lest pollution manner [sic] that artificial processes will not be able to match".
Secondly, even if nature is somehow more efficient than science can ever match for running an entire living creature, that's not what lab meat is doing. Almost everything an animal needs to do - think, feel, breathe, digest, move, maintain organs, and on and on and on - lab meat doesn't need to do. So potentially losses in efficiency for growing meat cells can be made up for by the fact that you're not doing any of the other things animals need to do besides growing meat cells.
> First, there's no evolutionary pressure to minimize pollution.
Sort off, more accurately we can generally deal with the 'pollutants' that nature general produces, rather than relatively novel substances like plastic. Hence I used the term 'least'
>science can ever match for running an entire living creature, that's not what lab meat is doing.
It begs the question, why it is being done? If it's not as good or better in terms of nutrition. One can certainly go down a rabbit hole of trying to define what is good or better is. My guess is that in terms of nutrition it would be extremely hard to beat ( despite what vegans claim). Evolutionary reasons at play here.
>science can ever match for running an entire living creature, that's not what lab meat is doing.
It begs the question, why it is being done? If it's not as good or better in terms of nutrition. One can certainly go down a rabbit hole of trying to define what is good or better is. My guess is that in terms of nutrition it would be extremely hard to beat ( despite what vegans claim). Evolutionary reasons at play here.
Evolution doesn’t prioritise efficiency, in fact. Evolution prioritises the basics for survival and is highly resistant to change. Change happens only when the environment changes and survival is at stake. That’s when the traits that helps in survival become dominant - because anything without it gets killed.
Beyond Meat is down close to 70% this year. I wouldn't be to optimistic that folks want to eat fake meat. It's clear they aren't selling in the grocery stores.
Beyond Meat is not meat though. It's not even close in taste.
I would argue that the problem is Beyond Meat is only kinda close in taste. Impossible meat is getting good reception because it's so close in taste (and I actually prefer it), and lots of other veggie burgers are doing okay because they fill the same use but aren't going for exactly the same flavor. Beyond Meat is almost in the uncanny valley of beef flavor.
That’s because it’s expensive, not because people don’t want it. It’s always cleaned out in stores in the UK.
Is cultivated meat sufficiently efficient compared to the translation of inputs to output compared to vegetables? My primary reason for cutting my meat consumption by 95% is sustainability. Ethical treatment of animals is a distant second.
So if this is still not sustainable, please address why do it, instead of writing a long preamble on the implementation details.
So if this is still not sustainable, please address why do it, instead of writing a long preamble on the implementation details.
The BEST product launch I have seen in HN. Very impressive resumes with grit and passion!!
Am a born vegetarian (Lacto-vegan). When 1 lb of meat is produced by 600 lbs of grass, we definitely need more efficient ways of making meat.
I dont want to eat meat but I will be your secret supporter and secretly follow your progress. Cheers!
Pharmaceutical industry insider Paul Wood claims lab grown meat will never be cost-effective [1]:
> For four years, Wood, who has a PhD in immunology, served as the executive director of global discovery for Pfizer Animal Health. (His division was later spun off into Zoetis, today the largest animal health company in the world.) One of his responsibilities was to oversee production of vaccines, which can involve infecting living cells with weakened virus strains and inducing those cells to multiply inside large bioreactors. In addition to yielding large quantities of vaccine-grade viruses, this approach also creates significant amounts of animal cell slurry, similar to the product next-generation protein startups want to process further into meat. Wood knew the process to be extremely technical, resource-intensive, and expensive. He didn’t understand how costly biomanufacturing techniques could ever be used to produce cheap, abundant human food.
> ...
> Wood couldn’t believe what he was hearing. In his view, GFI’s TEA report did little to justify increased public investment. He found it to be an outlandish document, one that trafficked more in wishful thinking than in science. He was so incensed that he hired a former Pfizer colleague, Huw Hughes, to analyze GFI’s analysis. Today, Hughes is a private consultant who helps biomanufacturers design and project costs for their production facilities; he’s worked on six sites devoted to cell culture at scale. Hughes concluded that GFI’s report projected unrealistic cost decreases, and left key aspects of the production process undefined, while significantly underestimating the expense and complexity of constructing a suitable facility.
> ...
> “After a while, you just think: Am I going crazy? Or do these people have some secret sauce that I’ve never heard of?” Wood said. “And the reality is, no—they’re just doing fermentation. But what they’re saying is, ‘Oh, we’ll do it better than anyone else has ever, ever done.”
How will your approach to lab-grown meat achieve cost competitiveness?
[1]: https://thecounter.org/lab-grown-cultivated-meat-cost-at-sca...
> For four years, Wood, who has a PhD in immunology, served as the executive director of global discovery for Pfizer Animal Health. (His division was later spun off into Zoetis, today the largest animal health company in the world.) One of his responsibilities was to oversee production of vaccines, which can involve infecting living cells with weakened virus strains and inducing those cells to multiply inside large bioreactors. In addition to yielding large quantities of vaccine-grade viruses, this approach also creates significant amounts of animal cell slurry, similar to the product next-generation protein startups want to process further into meat. Wood knew the process to be extremely technical, resource-intensive, and expensive. He didn’t understand how costly biomanufacturing techniques could ever be used to produce cheap, abundant human food.
> ...
> Wood couldn’t believe what he was hearing. In his view, GFI’s TEA report did little to justify increased public investment. He found it to be an outlandish document, one that trafficked more in wishful thinking than in science. He was so incensed that he hired a former Pfizer colleague, Huw Hughes, to analyze GFI’s analysis. Today, Hughes is a private consultant who helps biomanufacturers design and project costs for their production facilities; he’s worked on six sites devoted to cell culture at scale. Hughes concluded that GFI’s report projected unrealistic cost decreases, and left key aspects of the production process undefined, while significantly underestimating the expense and complexity of constructing a suitable facility.
> ...
> “After a while, you just think: Am I going crazy? Or do these people have some secret sauce that I’ve never heard of?” Wood said. “And the reality is, no—they’re just doing fermentation. But what they’re saying is, ‘Oh, we’ll do it better than anyone else has ever, ever done.”
How will your approach to lab-grown meat achieve cost competitiveness?
[1]: https://thecounter.org/lab-grown-cultivated-meat-cost-at-sca...
Are there any efforts to grow organ meat?
I've read claims that organ tissues have more of the macronutrients that our bodies need.
Dr Terry Wahls of Minding My Mitochondria fame: https://terrywahls.com/minding-my-mitochondria/
I've read claims that organ tissues have more of the macronutrients that our bodies need.
Dr Terry Wahls of Minding My Mitochondria fame: https://terrywahls.com/minding-my-mitochondria/
Hmm. The name. It has a connotation lol.
I was going to ask if it was too late to rebrand, but that felt mean.
[deleted]
I love this project as a vegan for the last 23 years!
Our group EarthPilot would love to provide support to this civilization scale project.
We work with some of the most brilliant and successful founders and teams on earth on leadership, mindset, high performance, culture and emotional mastery.
Our group EarthPilot would love to provide support to this civilization scale project.
We work with some of the most brilliant and successful founders and teams on earth on leadership, mindset, high performance, culture and emotional mastery.
As usual VC money finds an astoundingly naive way to pretend to help the planet.
We could just grow and eat beans.
We could just grow and eat beans.
Fantastic! Your product will help millions of people quit eating meat and save the planet.
Imagine diluting the affordable-meat market. "Is this salami real or fake? Ugh I don't know, I'd rather eat soy than glued together chimeras."
Imagine diluting the affordable-meat market. "Is this salami real or fake? Ugh I don't know, I'd rather eat soy than glued together chimeras."
> After researching the impact the livestock industry has on our planet, I knew I wanted to get involved to stop it.
I applaud the desire to help humanity eat healthier and saner amounts of meat, but...
I remain unconvinced that creating relatively resource-intensive fake meats is better than using highly efficient non-animal meat[0]. Most people won't eat either one unless they have no choice, but if it comes to that one thing is much better for the planet than the other. And if it doesn't come to that, we're gonna burn the planet to ashes for our McRibs.
Isn't the real solution to eat less meat, as opposed to eating more fake meat?
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetia_illucens#As_human_foo...
I applaud the desire to help humanity eat healthier and saner amounts of meat, but...
I remain unconvinced that creating relatively resource-intensive fake meats is better than using highly efficient non-animal meat[0]. Most people won't eat either one unless they have no choice, but if it comes to that one thing is much better for the planet than the other. And if it doesn't come to that, we're gonna burn the planet to ashes for our McRibs.
Isn't the real solution to eat less meat, as opposed to eating more fake meat?
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetia_illucens#As_human_foo...
The problem, as a vegetarian of something like 4 years, is that meat is really bloody tasty. Simply put, it's extremely nice to eat.
So rather than a future where we all eat flies or tofu or lentils or seitan or something if we can make a dent in the impact of animal agriculture while catering for the increase in meat eating in Asia then it's a good thing.
So rather than a future where we all eat flies or tofu or lentils or seitan or something if we can make a dent in the impact of animal agriculture while catering for the increase in meat eating in Asia then it's a good thing.
That is a valid claim. The artificial bioreactors in question are rarely as efficient as the body of an animal. So these "reduction" claims come from thinking about how much animal meat production is reduced by meeting the demand with fake meat, not taking the energy demands of fake meat production into account at all.
If this get to market, it would make a lot of us, vegan by default.
Exciting stuff, congrats on the launch!
Does this mean that you are able to create adherent culture while still facilitating metabolic activities in multi-layer tissue?
Does this mean that you are able to create adherent culture while still facilitating metabolic activities in multi-layer tissue?
Yes we are! While the cell metabolism is marginally diminished by our scaffolding method, the overall cell viability remains high.
hi Anneso!! congratulations on the launch! It's truly amazing what you and the team have been able to create so far, excited to see more updates in the following months. I agree with some of the other comments around here, this might be the best launch description I've ever seen here. side note: where can we sign up to beta test?
From an environmental and cost perspective, how do you see this compete with plant-based meat in the short-term and long-term?
Does the meat every get exercised with electric current or anything? Can you make it bigger that way like real muscle..
There are different approaches of helping the engineered muscle tissue to mature, one being electrical stimulation. It's an interesting idea to use it to increase the volume, but the effect of very high stimulation on texture has to be considered as well!
Great concept!
Can you make it into production? The info I've found shows only 1 venture funding round for $125k USD.
Can you make it into production? The info I've found shows only 1 venture funding round for $125k USD.
We are mainly building technology (hardware and consumables) for the cultivated meat industry as B2B model. Since we are not a vertical cultivated meat company we aim to start production within the next year.
Why is this better than self sustaining and carbon neutral homesteads?
Because we don’t need to convince hundreds of millions of people to move to self-sustaining and carbon neutral households.
Awesome technology and congrats on the launch :)
Can I see a picture of the bioreactors?
No real comment beyond cool! Go you!
I have no comment (or knowledge) on the product, but appreciate the way you described this. It was similar, albeit a little more technical, to Matt Levine’s brilliant simplified explanations of technical financial subjects.
Honest question. Why make meat? Why not use your resources to create nutrition bars? You have to source everything the meat needs to grow anyway (and what are those sources/impacts?), why not just press it in a bar and be done? If you're afraid folks will really miss their meat, so you want to ply them with meat, let me just say - folks who love meat will find the meat they love. They won't likely shift to reactor meat for environmental reasons.
Conscientious meat lovers will invest in regenerative agriculture, lobby for ending corn feeding, reclaim all that land, return it to natural grassland, and let ruminant animals do what they do best -- feed the soil and make meat.
Conscientious meat lovers will invest in regenerative agriculture, lobby for ending corn feeding, reclaim all that land, return it to natural grassland, and let ruminant animals do what they do best -- feed the soil and make meat.
Just throwing one option in here, if lab-grown meat can be grown cheaper than regular meat is produced, there's definitely a market. I like beef. Beef is getting VERY expensive where I live. If I could get lab-grown beef that's, say, 80% the experience at 50% the cost, I'd happily do that.
I think achieving a future where eating real meat is treated like a special occasion, but lab-grown meat is the norm is possible.
Finally, very few people would eat nutrition bars as regular meal replacements. Maybe there's a (vaguely dystopian) future where people replace most their meals with joyless supplementation, but I think a lot more success will be found in replacing real-meat with lab-meat.
Maybe this is all just too optimistic.
I think achieving a future where eating real meat is treated like a special occasion, but lab-grown meat is the norm is possible.
Finally, very few people would eat nutrition bars as regular meal replacements. Maybe there's a (vaguely dystopian) future where people replace most their meals with joyless supplementation, but I think a lot more success will be found in replacing real-meat with lab-meat.
Maybe this is all just too optimistic.
xusbwxucur(1)
Some future Black Mirror comments on this concept:
You haven't paid your protein bill this month, thus your micormeat subscription has been suspended and your Meat Machine (TM) will no longer grow any new meat for you.
We have given our executives and shareholders an exceptional return on their investments, and with your lack of being able to pay your Protein Bill, our record profits are hurting, Your account has been permanently suspended.
We have reviewed your appeal, and we found that our pricing model of 'meat by the gram' is sound and we have done nothing wrong in preventing you from getting your weekly allowance of allowed protein substance [Product] and hereby will be blocking all access to our services. This is an automated message, you have no recourse and may never contact an employee of Made Meat. Do not reply to this message.
You haven't paid your protein bill this month, thus your micormeat subscription has been suspended and your Meat Machine (TM) will no longer grow any new meat for you.
We have given our executives and shareholders an exceptional return on their investments, and with your lack of being able to pay your Protein Bill, our record profits are hurting, Your account has been permanently suspended.
We have reviewed your appeal, and we found that our pricing model of 'meat by the gram' is sound and we have done nothing wrong in preventing you from getting your weekly allowance of allowed protein substance [Product] and hereby will be blocking all access to our services. This is an automated message, you have no recourse and may never contact an employee of Made Meat. Do not reply to this message.
Oh good! I got downvoted!
Alright, MF'rs - I apploud everything about this busniss.. but lets talk long term:
The stem cells are from which organism?
Where did they come from?
---I have an aside from a hospital at UCSF Dog Patch was researching how to express stem cells to a particular tissue.
I watched this machine in fucking person...
Where did stem cells come from?
There will be a black market in ~15 years for stem-call based organs that originate in non human sources.
There will be a bio-ID using the foundation f CRISPR to "digitally sign the origin of the DNA manufactured by this system" -- wait until you have digitally assigned, approved and allotted genes in a hemogonist platform of Micro-meats.
Alright, MF'rs - I apploud everything about this busniss.. but lets talk long term:
The stem cells are from which organism?
Where did they come from?
---I have an aside from a hospital at UCSF Dog Patch was researching how to express stem cells to a particular tissue.
I watched this machine in fucking person...
Where did stem cells come from?
There will be a black market in ~15 years for stem-call based organs that originate in non human sources.
There will be a bio-ID using the foundation f CRISPR to "digitally sign the origin of the DNA manufactured by this system" -- wait until you have digitally assigned, approved and allotted genes in a hemogonist platform of Micro-meats.
bradgranath(1)
> but the climate crisis needs direct attention in order to stop, reverse and survive the impacts of climate change.
Since you brought it up, are you aware of how global average surface temperature is measured? Or the adjustments that have been made to historic records?
Since you brought it up, are you aware of how global average surface temperature is measured? Or the adjustments that have been made to historic records?
Stop before you destroy the planet and people with unsustainable fake food. Cows are an important part of the carbon cycle. https://www.sacredcow.info/
This seems wildly alarmist. I'm not sure anyone's arguing for the complete removal of cows from the ecosystem. I'm also confident people won't stop eating real beef, even if factory farming is reduced and real beef becomes slightly more novel.
Yes it is alarmist for a reason. We have about 60 to 100 years of topsoil left unless we get cows and ruminant animals to help rebuild it.
It’s a shame cows will be extinct in 100 years. After the lab-meat craze of 2042, the military will use their vast domestic drone fleets to exterminate all remaining cattle from the surface of the earth to appease progressive anti-methane voters.
Well, those PhD guys don't even know that eating same cells all time would kill our species ? We need to assimilate different DNA from each plant, each animal, to keep evolving our own one and avoid diseases. It's basic and this is why this kind of stuff don't cross some borders. Focus on reducing meat consumption instead.
Cultivated meat is just real meat based on animal cells, but instead of getting meat by growing animals, it is grown in bioreactors. This will soon be much better for our planet: less land, water and feed required for the animals, less environmental impact from cutting down forests for farmland and feed production, less antibiotics, and of course, far less harm to animals.
The basic process for cultivating meat is known, but there remain difficult problems in bringing it to mass production. I’ll describe the process, the problems, and our solution.
Cultivating meat is similar to brewing beer, but instead of growing yeast, we grow muscle cells (plus fat cells for deliciousness!). The process begins with a handful of stem cells that are isolated from an animal. Initially, the volume is tiny and the cells are handled very carefully. They are mixed with medium, which is a mixture of growth factors like insulin, along with amino acids, and other nutrients that they need to grow. Then they are proliferated (multiplied) to upwards of 10M cells per mL.
After proliferating, the overall volume gets above 250 mL and shear stresses start to become an issue, meaning the cells get damaged and break apart. Traditional bioreactors use large impellers for mixing the cells and medium, along with a sparger which adds gasses like CO2 and O2. The impeller, gas bubbles, baffles, and internal surfaces are all locations where cells encounter damaging shear stresses. That’s not a problem if you’re cultivating bacteria, yeast, or other microorganisms that have a high tolerance for this. But mammal, bird and fish cells are very intolerant of such stresses, making it hard to cultivate meat. This is the first problem we address.
After the cells have proliferated from a very small volume to tens or hundreds of liters, they are still a mass of single, unorganized cells. In order to get delicious meat we need to make those individual cells merge and differentiate together to form actual muscle tissue that has the right texture. When cells differentiate, they change from being stem cells, into specialized cells and structures, for example, inside the cells myosin heavy chains develop along the actin cell-skeleton. These myosin-actin complexes are basically the motors of the muscle. For this, the cells get seeded onto constructs called scaffolds. A scaffold is like housing for the cells, a structure where cells can easily move into and grow. We usually try to make scaffolds that mimic the cells' natural environment in the animal's body so they feel as at home as possible.
Traditional methods pour the proliferated cells on top of the scaffold and hope that they “stick”. This is easy, but results in tissues that aren’t uniform—in some places the cells attach well, in other places not at all. Additionally, the scaffolds are not always edible—a major problem if you’re producing meat! Consistent cell distribution throughout the scaffold is the second problem we address, and edibility is the third.
The scaffolds are then reintroduced to reactors for another proliferation or differentiation, depending on the process. The cells are given time to mature, where they finalize their structure, orientation and internal make-up. At this point, you have muscle tissue, and the only thing left to add is components such as fat, which add to the taste and texture of the meat.
This process is immensely complex and the cost to produce it at scale is tremendous. To bring cultivated meat to the masses, the complexity and cost problems have to be solved. Many companies have spent years on R&D, but are still not able to produce at larger scales. We want to change that.
We asked ourselves, how could we protect these cells while they are in the harsh environment of the reactor, while also creating homogenous, high quality 3D scaffolds that are consistent throughout?
Our method addresses shear stress by shielding the cells within the scaffold. Because the cells are embedded inside the scaffold they don’t feel the damaging wall shear stresses inside a bioreactor, only the surface of the scaffold itself is exposed to them. Our scaffold composition is designed to maintain typical diffusion properties, so even though the cells are shielded and don’t touch the medium (which contains the nutrients) the nutrients still make it to the cells. As time goes on and the cells differentiate and mature, they now have a 3D construct where they can begin to develop into the texture of meat. This process enables cells to be seeded at nearly any rate, from only a few grams per minute to over thousands of kilograms per minute. This means our technology can be used from the research stage all the way through full production.
We don’t intend to sell meat ourselves. Our business aims at helping other companies to go to market faster, by eliminating the complexity associated with scaffold seeding. Our scaffolding technology easily integrates into any bioreactor train on the market. Users can purchase or lease the machine for around $250-$500, depending on their needs. Our scaffold bio-inks are universal for mammals, birds and fish, and can be purchased either as single orders or as a subscription, ranging from volumes of one liter up to thousands. Each liter of scaffold costs less than $2 and produces 2 to 5 kilograms of meat.
A word on our backgrounds: I (Anne-Sophie) am a biomedical and tissue engineer with a PhD from ETH Zurich and Masters from Imperial College London. I’ve been working on creating functional biological tissues in the lab most of my professional career. I love animals and have been a vegetarian since I was 8 years old. I also love our planet and decided to use my tissue engineering skills to help change our food system. And I love good food! so the idea of amazing new food products is highly appealing to me.
I (Vincent) am a space systems engineer. I’ve been building, testing, launching and analyzing the Delta IV, Atlas V, New Glenn and SLS rockets for the last 7 years. I’ve probably had my hands in almost every stage of launch system development, from napkin sketches to saying go for launch. Space has always been awe-inspiring to me, but the climate crisis needs direct attention in order to stop, reverse and survive the impacts of climate change. After researching the impact the livestock industry has on our planet, I knew I wanted to get involved to stop it.
If you’re interested in learning more or collaborating, you’re warmly welcome to reach out to us at [email protected]. We’d love to hear your thoughts on any of the above, from cultivated meat in general to the details of the production process, and whatever else you’d like to ask or share!