Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto(techbomb.ca)
techbomb.ca
Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto
https://techbomb.ca/canadian-business/microsoft-opens-new-hq-in-toronto/
146 comments
It is true, not sure why there are downvotes.
US immigration is a mess and Canada's is delightful even if it's pissing off the locals a bit these days.
I've been saying for a while that US and Canada have been playing a zero sum game for Dev jobs. US' loss is Canada's gain.
US immigration is a mess and Canada's is delightful even if it's pissing off the locals a bit these days.
I've been saying for a while that US and Canada have been playing a zero sum game for Dev jobs. US' loss is Canada's gain.
>US immigration is a mess and Canada's is delightful
EU immigration for non-EU citizens is also very simple, basically just a rubber stamp nowadays in Countries like Germany for example.
EU immigration for non-EU citizens is also very simple, basically just a rubber stamp nowadays in Countries like Germany for example.
Canada and Australia go further with easier immigration process for first degree relatives, which is important in Asian culture. In Germany, for example, you need to be a minor in order to bring your parents or prove "exceptional hardship" [0]
[0] - https://se-legal.de/immigration-lawyer-germany/family-reunif...
[0] - https://se-legal.de/immigration-lawyer-germany/family-reunif...
Yes, playing the lottery is easy. Winning the lottery, not so much.
Canada does not currently have a viable immigration model for non-dependents immigration. The Parents-Grandparents stream takes 30,000 applications a year through a lottery system because demand is so high. So it could take many years before you get to bring your parents.
Canada does not currently have a viable immigration model for non-dependents immigration. The Parents-Grandparents stream takes 30,000 applications a year through a lottery system because demand is so high. So it could take many years before you get to bring your parents.
Canada has social healthcare that is already stretched to its limits in many areas. I'm not sure they can afford to take in every relative who wants to come but has never paid into healthcare.
That's easy, make it so that unlimited amounts of parents can come if the child is a citizen, but they'll have to buy their own insurance.
It's not easy, because capacity is an issue, not just payment. Similarly housing, similarly other services.
Canada already has massive immigration relative to its population - the built environment and capacity for services hasn't increased relative to that immigration. It doesn't matter what insurance you have when there aren't enough surgeons, 130+ days wait for an MRI, etc etc.
Allowing "unlimited" parents per immigrant is essentially tripling immigration on its own. Maybe the answer isn't "limitless immigration" when the problem is lack of housing, capacity, and services.
In my opinion canada's immigration policies are already unsustainable and have cost a huge portion of the canadian population in quality of life.
Canada already has massive immigration relative to its population - the built environment and capacity for services hasn't increased relative to that immigration. It doesn't matter what insurance you have when there aren't enough surgeons, 130+ days wait for an MRI, etc etc.
Allowing "unlimited" parents per immigrant is essentially tripling immigration on its own. Maybe the answer isn't "limitless immigration" when the problem is lack of housing, capacity, and services.
In my opinion canada's immigration policies are already unsustainable and have cost a huge portion of the canadian population in quality of life.
> when there aren't enough surgeons, 130+ days wait for an MRI
But why, though? Aren't there any surgeons among the immigrants? Don't immigrants generate tax revenues to pay for new infra?
But why, though? Aren't there any surgeons among the immigrants? Don't immigrants generate tax revenues to pay for new infra?
>but why, though? Aren't there any surgeons among the immigrants?
because they can pick up and move to the states and double or triple their income, so the surgeons have to be people who expressly wish to stay in canada over increase their income.
> Don't immigrants generate tax revenues to pay for new infra?
that has not been the case so far. Housing, healthcare, etc are in crisis in canada. meanwhile the government is allowing fast food restaurants to import temporary workers.
because they can pick up and move to the states and double or triple their income, so the surgeons have to be people who expressly wish to stay in canada over increase their income.
> Don't immigrants generate tax revenues to pay for new infra?
that has not been the case so far. Housing, healthcare, etc are in crisis in canada. meanwhile the government is allowing fast food restaurants to import temporary workers.
Canada only allows like 10-20k parental PRs each year, and 100s of thousands of people apply for it each year (and increasing).
Not really any good. Compare that to the US where your parents get a GC no questions asked if you're a citizen.
Not really any good. Compare that to the US where your parents get a GC no questions asked if you're a citizen.
> if you're a citizen
Almost any country in the world allows you to bring your parents if you are a citizen. The path to citizenship in US is very very long. Canada allows this while you are on a PR. And not every immigrant is happy to change citizenship, it's a much riskier bet than being a PR.
Almost any country in the world allows you to bring your parents if you are a citizen. The path to citizenship in US is very very long. Canada allows this while you are on a PR. And not every immigrant is happy to change citizenship, it's a much riskier bet than being a PR.
Important for keeping salaries low and exporting cheaply, because the minimum salary requirement for non-EU citizens is lower for jobs in high demand.
First thing I thought: rents in Toronto are just going to go up even higher! When a big company opens a new office in your city, it's half good news, half worrying news...
It's no easier for an American to immigrate to Canada than for someone from (almost) any other country. It's particularly hard for a non-American to immigrate to Canada from America.
It's important to be careful about how much of your own propaganda you believe.
It's important to be careful about how much of your own propaganda you believe.
Not true... it is much easier for an American to move to Canada (and vice verse) due to the TN Visa. Essentially no process or redtape, all you need is an job offer in one of the qualifying professions (Software Engineering is one of them) and an American can literally present that to immigration 2 hours before their flight at the airport and get a visa stamped on their passport.
So is there an actual picture of the building and workspaces? I was hoping to see what a modern office looks like according to Microsoft.
It is not in the TD Center, its at CIBC Square. Been there for 3 days early April, it’s a really nice office, with lots of space. Views are great too, you can see all over the city and lake.
Pics of inside at https://www.blogto.com/tech/2022/05/microsoft-new-headquarte... it doesn’t show too many of the meeting rooms and work areas though :( it is open plan, well lit, well furnished. Mirrors other recent MSFT offices.
Pics of inside at https://www.blogto.com/tech/2022/05/microsoft-new-headquarte... it doesn’t show too many of the meeting rooms and work areas though :( it is open plan, well lit, well furnished. Mirrors other recent MSFT offices.
Searching on Google Maps, it looks like the "HQ" is located inside Toronto-Dominion Centre, which is an office complex downtown, nothing too exciting to look at.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto-Dominion_Centre
I'm sure if they had their own facade to show off they'd have a photo in the article.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto-Dominion_Centre
I'm sure if they had their own facade to show off they'd have a photo in the article.
'Bout f'n time! They've been dining on Waterloo grads for just about ever now.
Waterloo is possibly the best CS school in the world, but we keep ignoring it. (Or talking about Hamilton or Toronto or whatever and not that obvious gem in the crown.) This, too, is hilariously Canadian.
Waterloo is possibly the best CS school in the world, but we keep ignoring it. (Or talking about Hamilton or Toronto or whatever and not that obvious gem in the crown.) This, too, is hilariously Canadian.
What's so great about Waterloo? It is nowhere near Standard/Caltech/MIT in competition. The quality of students is also just above mediocre given the smaller talent pool of that exists in Canada.
Full disclosure: I'm from Waterloo.
University of Waterloo is a relatively young university - established in 1959 - so it may look unattractive compared to old big name universities, especially on the usual metrics used for ranking universities.
However, UWaterloo positioned itself into a very peculiar position by offering the most extensive undergraduate co-op program. Co-op students graduates with up to 2 years of field experience, and many of them get offers from the companies they worked for during co-op terms (and among them are Big Tech and other IT giants). This allows Waterloo graduates to get high-end jobs pretty quickly, and, as a result, it's currently one of the most popular universities in SV and Big Tech[1].
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Waterloo#Ranking...
> The quality of students is also just above mediocre given the smaller talent pool of that exists in Canada.
The pool is NOT limited to the population of Canada, because Canadian immigration policy create a lot of synergy here.
Canada has a very lax immigration policy compared to US, so it's very easy for foreign students to settle in Canada after finishing their co-op. IIRC, both the federal gov and provincial gov roll their own immigration programs, so there's practically no shortage of immigration options when you graduate from a Canadian university. Hell, some people even use their shiny new Canadian PR/citizenship to re-immigrate to US, while a lot of foreign students in US get kicked out after graduation. The door is much more wide open in Canada.
So, Waterloo co-op program is a great opportunity for foreign students to get a decent SWE job in North America - one of the most well paying jobs in the world. This makes Waterloo attract talents from abroad.
University of Waterloo is a relatively young university - established in 1959 - so it may look unattractive compared to old big name universities, especially on the usual metrics used for ranking universities.
However, UWaterloo positioned itself into a very peculiar position by offering the most extensive undergraduate co-op program. Co-op students graduates with up to 2 years of field experience, and many of them get offers from the companies they worked for during co-op terms (and among them are Big Tech and other IT giants). This allows Waterloo graduates to get high-end jobs pretty quickly, and, as a result, it's currently one of the most popular universities in SV and Big Tech[1].
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Waterloo#Ranking...
> The quality of students is also just above mediocre given the smaller talent pool of that exists in Canada.
The pool is NOT limited to the population of Canada, because Canadian immigration policy create a lot of synergy here.
Canada has a very lax immigration policy compared to US, so it's very easy for foreign students to settle in Canada after finishing their co-op. IIRC, both the federal gov and provincial gov roll their own immigration programs, so there's practically no shortage of immigration options when you graduate from a Canadian university. Hell, some people even use their shiny new Canadian PR/citizenship to re-immigrate to US, while a lot of foreign students in US get kicked out after graduation. The door is much more wide open in Canada.
So, Waterloo co-op program is a great opportunity for foreign students to get a decent SWE job in North America - one of the most well paying jobs in the world. This makes Waterloo attract talents from abroad.
> so it may look unattractive compared to old big name universities, especially on the usual metrics used for ranking universities.
Mostly research output and quality.
> it's currently one of the most popular universities in SV and Big Tech
How much of that is due to the sheer size of the undergraduate class? There are more undergrads at Waterloo than at MIT, Stanford, CMU, Caltech, Harvard, Princeton and Yale... Combined!
Mostly research output and quality.
> it's currently one of the most popular universities in SV and Big Tech
How much of that is due to the sheer size of the undergraduate class? There are more undergrads at Waterloo than at MIT, Stanford, CMU, Caltech, Harvard, Princeton and Yale... Combined!
> How much of that is due to the sheer size of the undergraduate class?
The quantity still needs to be backed by the quality. Companies don't roll the dice when hiring people. They filter and interview. The numbers certainly prove that Waterloo draws many talents who can survive that process.
The quantity still needs to be backed by the quality. Companies don't roll the dice when hiring people. They filter and interview. The numbers certainly prove that Waterloo draws many talents who can survive that process.
> The numbers certainly prove that Waterloo draws many talents who can survive that process.
Not really. In a resume pile you should get almost 8x more applicants from Waterloo than MIT. You could flunk 7 out of 8 candidates and still claim the university is “as popular as MIT” in SV.
Not really. In a resume pile you should get almost 8x more applicants from Waterloo than MIT. You could flunk 7 out of 8 candidates and still claim the university is “as popular as MIT” in SV.
> It is nowhere near Standard/Caltech/MIT
Based on my experience at multiple FAANGs and medium sized name brand tech companies... they'd much rather have a Waterloo grad than the above. Can't beat the education combined with the co-op experience.
Based on my experience at multiple FAANGs and medium sized name brand tech companies... they'd much rather have a Waterloo grad than the above. Can't beat the education combined with the co-op experience.
> Based on my experience at multiple FAANGs and medium sized name brand tech companies... they'd much rather have a Waterloo grad than the above.
It certainly wasn't what I observed. I guess for smaller firms that can't compete on salaries it make sense since they have no hope of being first pick at Stanford/Caltech/MIT.
It certainly wasn't what I observed. I guess for smaller firms that can't compete on salaries it make sense since they have no hope of being first pick at Stanford/Caltech/MIT.
> It is nowhere near Standard/Caltech/MIT in competition
Source?
Source?
>What's so great about Waterloo? It is nowhere near Standard/Caltech/MIT in competition.
Indeed.
Canada and California have about the same population. One might plausibly, if generously, posit Toronto and McGill as rough equivalents to Berkeley and UCLA. But Canada does not have a Stanford, Caltech, CalArts, UCSF, USC, UCSD, etc., etc. Waterloo? SJSU, maybe, and California has a dozen other colleges at about that level.
Indeed.
Canada and California have about the same population. One might plausibly, if generously, posit Toronto and McGill as rough equivalents to Berkeley and UCLA. But Canada does not have a Stanford, Caltech, CalArts, UCSF, USC, UCSD, etc., etc. Waterloo? SJSU, maybe, and California has a dozen other colleges at about that level.
> One might plausibly, if generously, posit Toronto and McGill as rough equivalents to Berkeley and UCLA.
Would someone really reject Berkley for one of these schools? Assuming tuition and securing a visa isn't an issue.
Would someone really reject Berkley for one of these schools? Assuming tuition and securing a visa isn't an issue.
>> One might plausibly, if generously, posit Toronto and McGill as rough equivalents to Berkeley and UCLA.
>Would someone really reject Berkley for one of these schools? Assuming tuition and securing a visa isn't an issue.
True. I was thinking of the quality excluding other factors (and specifically noted that the comparison was still generous to Toronto/McGill). But I agree that anyone accepted to both Berkeley and Toronto/McGill is going to choose California over Canada, with the following exceptions:
* Toronto/Montreal has some specific personal appeal
* The Canadian schools' tuition works out to be substantially less than Berkeley. I know that McGill, in particular, has historically been a popular choice for eastern US students whose families make too much for financial aid from US schools, got turned down from their first choices (typically an Ivy), and choose McGill for both the relatively low cost even for out-of-country students and being able to say that they are going to another country for college (even if it's just across the Canadian border, quite possibly closer to home than an American alternative).
But you did say to exclude cost and visas as a factor. Certainly, no foreign student accepted to both will ever choose Canada (except, say, a francophone who chooses McGill for that reason); Berkeley has a worldwide brand name that Toronto and McGill do not.
>Would someone really reject Berkley for one of these schools? Assuming tuition and securing a visa isn't an issue.
True. I was thinking of the quality excluding other factors (and specifically noted that the comparison was still generous to Toronto/McGill). But I agree that anyone accepted to both Berkeley and Toronto/McGill is going to choose California over Canada, with the following exceptions:
* Toronto/Montreal has some specific personal appeal
* The Canadian schools' tuition works out to be substantially less than Berkeley. I know that McGill, in particular, has historically been a popular choice for eastern US students whose families make too much for financial aid from US schools, got turned down from their first choices (typically an Ivy), and choose McGill for both the relatively low cost even for out-of-country students and being able to say that they are going to another country for college (even if it's just across the Canadian border, quite possibly closer to home than an American alternative).
But you did say to exclude cost and visas as a factor. Certainly, no foreign student accepted to both will ever choose Canada (except, say, a francophone who chooses McGill for that reason); Berkeley has a worldwide brand name that Toronto and McGill do not.
> except, say, a francophone who chooses McGill for that reason
The French schools actually have an interesting dynamic. Having worked with a few French Canadians here in the Bay they pretty much all told me they never considered going to an American school (or more generally working for an American company) due to their perceived language gap. It was later they figured out that if the whole room understands you then maybe you don’t have a language gap.
The French schools actually have an interesting dynamic. Having worked with a few French Canadians here in the Bay they pretty much all told me they never considered going to an American school (or more generally working for an American company) due to their perceived language gap. It was later they figured out that if the whole room understands you then maybe you don’t have a language gap.
>The French schools actually have an interesting dynamic. Having worked with a few French Canadians here in the Bay they pretty much all told me they never considered going to an American school (or more generally working for an American company) due to their perceived language gap.
Yes, I think Polytechnique Montréal is a popular choice for French looking to study STEM in North America. (Despite my mentioning McGill earlier, it wouldn't necessarily be the first choice for Francophones because it's an English university in the English part of Montreal.)
Yes, I think Polytechnique Montréal is a popular choice for French looking to study STEM in North America. (Despite my mentioning McGill earlier, it wouldn't necessarily be the first choice for Francophones because it's an English university in the English part of Montreal.)
Who has been ignoring it?
> Waterloo is possibly the best CS school in the world
Possibly, but I suspect Cambridge would like a word ;-)
Possibly, but I suspect Cambridge would like a word ;-)
Are they going to pay enough for their developers to actually live near this Bay St office? Canadian developer salaries are abysmally low.
When I worked for a big US company it was very clear- you open an office in Canada because it’s cheaper. So, probably not.
>you open an office in Canada because it’s cheaper.
Or, to hire international tech workers who you can't bring to your US office for visa reasons.
Or, to hire international tech workers who you can't bring to your US office for visa reasons.
Yes, this is right. Big Tech is mostly focused on Canada and EU because they can hire people from (chiefly) China and India without H1-Bs.
According to a director I spoke with it’s because they can’t find enough qualified engineers, not to save money.
Seems we should just be opening more offices in Hyderabad, I don’t know why that isn’t done more. Political security maybe?
According to a director I spoke with it’s because they can’t find enough qualified engineers, not to save money.
Seems we should just be opening more offices in Hyderabad, I don’t know why that isn’t done more. Political security maybe?
Google is currently building its largest non-US office in Hyderabad.
https://m.economictimes.com/news/company/corporate-trends/go...
https://m.economictimes.com/news/company/corporate-trends/go...
Of course, if you offer more money, you’ll get a larger pool of candidates.
I agree that there is scarcity on the market, but unless a company is really paying top salaries for their devs, they really cannot say that it’s not money.
I agree that there is scarcity on the market, but unless a company is really paying top salaries for their devs, they really cannot say that it’s not money.
Theres a natural cap of talent in a lot of cities, the more you offer only takes from another company instead of bringing more people into the pool. The time to get trained and enter the market isnt instant.
I made about 650k last year and I'm not even staff-level. I don't think paying 750k is going to attract anyone new.
It might attract me. I work in a non tech role because, at the time I thought that tech paid less than my chosen industry.
If I had known that I could make $750k in tech then the gap is small enough that the improved work life balance and lower stress might have tipped me to tech.
If I had known that I could make $750k in tech then the gap is small enough that the improved work life balance and lower stress might have tipped me to tech.
>I made about 650k last year and I'm not even staff-level
Holy cow, how is that possible?! In my European country staff level goes up to 85K. That's insane.
Holy cow, how is that possible?! In my European country staff level goes up to 85K. That's insane.
Part of it is luck in how my RSUs got priced in and stock appreciation. I won't make anywhere near that this year because of how poor the market has done. It'll still be over 400k though.
Have a look at https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Amazon,Facebook,Google&track...
Have a look at https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Amazon,Facebook,Google&track...
Because it’s even harder to hire good tech workers in india now? Europe and Canada have far more talent at far cheaper price right now.
>Europe and Canada have far more talent at far cheaper price right now.
Depends, it's not just about the employees salaries. Some EU countries have pretty high taxes and high worker's rights so big tech actively avoids them.
So in the grand scheme, Indian offices might yeld better return on their investment.
Depends, it's not just about the employees salaries. Some EU countries have pretty high taxes and high worker's rights so big tech actively avoids them.
So in the grand scheme, Indian offices might yeld better return on their investment.
High (income) taxes isn't an issue for "big tech", even with the taxes the compensations they offer in the US are a multiple of what the average software engineer earns. Worker's rights is people telling on themselves, I don't think 40 hours / week and ~25 days off a year is unreasonable. No vacation or long hours just means people will do less at work.
Anyway I know of plenty of people who landed remote jobs at US companies, or US-based companies opening offices within Europe. I mean most US companies operate through Ireland, the Netherlands and Luxembourg anyway because of tax evasion.
Anyway I know of plenty of people who landed remote jobs at US companies, or US-based companies opening offices within Europe. I mean most US companies operate through Ireland, the Netherlands and Luxembourg anyway because of tax evasion.
>High (income) taxes isn't an issue for "big tech"
Except high taxes its an issue though but for the company's taxes, not the employees' taxes. You even said it yourself later ["I mean most US companies operate through Ireland, the Netherlands and Luxembourg anyway because of tax evasion"] it just so happens that the countries with low corporate taxes also have low income taxes and countries with high corporate taxes usually also have high income taxes.
There's a reason why all big tech in EU is parked in those countries with low taxes and simple laws like Luxembourg, Ireland, Netherlands and not in countries with high taxes and complex laws like France, Belgium, Austria, etc.
And no, most big tech don't really hire EU-wide remotely outside of their HQ country and a few select other countries since we have no standardized EU wide corporate and workers' laws so a lot of EU countries get left out due to their stricter laws.
Except high taxes its an issue though but for the company's taxes, not the employees' taxes. You even said it yourself later ["I mean most US companies operate through Ireland, the Netherlands and Luxembourg anyway because of tax evasion"] it just so happens that the countries with low corporate taxes also have low income taxes and countries with high corporate taxes usually also have high income taxes.
There's a reason why all big tech in EU is parked in those countries with low taxes and simple laws like Luxembourg, Ireland, Netherlands and not in countries with high taxes and complex laws like France, Belgium, Austria, etc.
And no, most big tech don't really hire EU-wide remotely outside of their HQ country and a few select other countries since we have no standardized EU wide corporate and workers' laws so a lot of EU countries get left out due to their stricter laws.
Not sure if you know what the ground realities in India are. Absolute unadjusted tech salaries are higher than in Canada or EU. And retention is really hard. EU workers have more rights so to speak but not clear to me how either of us can tell that’s still a dealbreaker.
I know and I wasn't contradicting you. I was saying that despite EU salaries being lower than Indian ones for the FAANGS, they might still prefer to expand in India and not the EU due to the EU's higher taxes, higher privacy and higher workers' rights.
Canada timezones are more desirable
The Canadian government does all sorts of background checks on the workers, many of which be illegal for Google to do directly
I thought that was standard all over the world but then I worked in finance in Europe, American banks pay literally twice as much as European banks in Europe.
Yea I’m surprised how little Microsoft pays in Vancouver according to levels.fyi.
If an American company paid 80% of American salary to Canadians they would have their pick of Canada’s top talent. This slowly appears to be happening with Meta jobs in Canada.
Canada has the same time zones, a similar culture, is geographically close, the same language, and excellent computer science/engineering programs.
What Canada doesn’t have is a strong venture capital pool, a culture of risk taking, or a domestic market of 330 million people which stifles new businesses.
If an American company paid 80% of American salary to Canadians they would have their pick of Canada’s top talent. This slowly appears to be happening with Meta jobs in Canada.
Canada has the same time zones, a similar culture, is geographically close, the same language, and excellent computer science/engineering programs.
What Canada doesn’t have is a strong venture capital pool, a culture of risk taking, or a domestic market of 330 million people which stifles new businesses.
> What Canada doesn’t have is a strong venture capital pool, a culture of risk taking
I tried to raise a ~$300k seed round in Toronto in 2014. Most Canadian investors we met with wanted to see us have something like $10k/month in recurring revenue before considering an investment. We spent a week in SF and left with a $250k offer at a $4M valuation, when we were pre-revenue!
(We declined, and eventually our business failed (acquhired by a team in SF, though....). But still. Wow! What a difference!)
I tried to raise a ~$300k seed round in Toronto in 2014. Most Canadian investors we met with wanted to see us have something like $10k/month in recurring revenue before considering an investment. We spent a week in SF and left with a $250k offer at a $4M valuation, when we were pre-revenue!
(We declined, and eventually our business failed (acquhired by a team in SF, though....). But still. Wow! What a difference!)
I haven’t seen any other country that tries new things and willing to spent than the US. That includes Europe and Asia. It’s quite disappointing really because the world is so much bigger than the US alone.
>I haven’t seen any other country that tries new things and willing to spent than the US
The US owns the money printer to the world trade currency (USD), and has the military force to defend this unique position, so of course it can afford to outspend everyone else.
The US owns the money printer to the world trade currency (USD), and has the military force to defend this unique position, so of course it can afford to outspend everyone else.
I wish the legions who, in online discussions of the US dollar (or almost anything US foreign policy/military-related), always bring up how the US dollar/economy's strength is based on the "petrodollar" (you didn't say it, but that's what you were thinking of), how the US goes to war to preserve the dollar's role as a reserve currency, how Russia/China/Saudi Arabia can cause the dollar to crash by using another currency, etc., would actually think about what they're arguing about.
No, kids, if Saudi Arabia suddenly started selling all its oil in Euros or Yen on renminbi, the US would not send the Sixth Fleet off its shore, any more than it did so to force KSA to use the US dollar to price its wares in the first place. Saudis (and Russians, and Chinese, and everyone else) use the US dollar because they find that a) using it is more convenient than another hard currency like the Swiss franc or British pound, and b) no one else wants riyals, rubles, or renminbi.
No, kids, if Saudi Arabia suddenly started selling all its oil in Euros or Yen on renminbi, the US would not send the Sixth Fleet off its shore, any more than it did so to force KSA to use the US dollar to price its wares in the first place. Saudis (and Russians, and Chinese, and everyone else) use the US dollar because they find that a) using it is more convenient than another hard currency like the Swiss franc or British pound, and b) no one else wants riyals, rubles, or renminbi.
This is not necessarily some petro-dollar argument. Individuals in other countries and their central banks want to save or hold USD in reserve for a variety of reasons (local currency inflation, exchange rates, etc). They buy dollar denominated bonds. This essentially allows the US massive access to credit which can fund these sorts of ventures.
I can make the same argument without mentioning the military - we benefit from a virtuous cycle of having the most dynamic economy which allows us access to credit to improve it, making it even more dynamic, and we simply pay it back as a lesser share of % GDP later.
I can make the same argument without mentioning the military - we benefit from a virtuous cycle of having the most dynamic economy which allows us access to credit to improve it, making it even more dynamic, and we simply pay it back as a lesser share of % GDP later.
[deleted]
That may be relevant to the US government, but the investors that would invest in startups don't have access to that printer.
VC firms, investment banks, etc. are all suckling from the same FED teat, and all this cash trickles down into the US tech sector/start-up scene.
Not really. VC are investing institutional money. Institutions in the US are willing to invest in "private-equity venture capital". Hell, even CALPERS does.
It has nothing to do with the federal reserve and everything to do with risk tolerence.
It has nothing to do with the federal reserve and everything to do with risk tolerence.
No kidding
The Canadian risk/reward curve is weird. They won't look at anything barely promising but will go "all in" once it hits a bit of traction (even if the business model is wonky)
The Canadian risk/reward curve is weird. They won't look at anything barely promising but will go "all in" once it hits a bit of traction (even if the business model is wonky)
So after all they were right and didn't lose ~$300k?
I dunno about that. Most of the team was "very Canadian" and didn't want to move to California - the main reason we rejected the SF deal (I was the only one who accepted in full the acquihire, the team did not move in the end). $300k, staying in Canada, would have gone a long way to providing a stronger team cohesion at the time. Maybe we would have succeeded.
Also, we were near completing a $10k/month enterprise deal but didn't have the runway to finish those sales in time. Additionally, we had Government of Canada contracts at $3k/month in the pipeline, which we did eventually complete. Our software was running on millions of phones, we had enterprise pipeline deals, signed government contracts (hard to come by I hear!) and a darn good team.
Hard to say how it would have played out, but, what's clear to me is that it wasn't clear that the $300k would have been lost.
Also, we were near completing a $10k/month enterprise deal but didn't have the runway to finish those sales in time. Additionally, we had Government of Canada contracts at $3k/month in the pipeline, which we did eventually complete. Our software was running on millions of phones, we had enterprise pipeline deals, signed government contracts (hard to come by I hear!) and a darn good team.
Hard to say how it would have played out, but, what's clear to me is that it wasn't clear that the $300k would have been lost.
Thanks for the context! It actually seems like something worth taking the risk, too bad it didn't played out better
>What Canada doesn’t have is a strong venture capital pool, a culture of risk taking, or a domestic market of 330 million people which stifles new businesses.
Replace Canada with EU and it's the same.
Replace Canada with EU and it's the same.
You still have the timezone issue, which is a problem
The timezone issue is as much of a problem as you make it. The difference between the east coast and the UK is 5 hours - the difference between East and West coast is 3 hours. Both of those are very roughly in the ballpark of "half a workday overlapping".
It's only a problem if the US and EU sides need to work closely together; most tech companies will have multiple products that can be built independently. IIRC Google Docs is mainly built and maintained in Germany.
I was going to say UK!
I doubt it, London tech wages, especially in the City, beat everything else in the EU.
In my experience London tech wages are not specially high unless they are linked to finance. IMHO Switzerland salaries are the highest in EU (although cost of living there is very high).
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And are still lower than most places in the US.
I dont have enough karma to reply to my sibling comment:
> Sure, but let's compare apples to apples (UK to EU) as US is unique in being the world leading economy.
EU has a higher GDP than the US and is therefore the world leading economy.
> Sure, but let's compare apples to apples (UK to EU) as US is unique in being the world leading economy.
EU has a higher GDP than the US and is therefore the world leading economy.
The EU is not a single united market like the US is.
Sure, you can bunch the countries together and get high GDP number but that's not an Apples to apples comparison with the US as every EU country has it's own completely different languages, economy, political and economic agenda, culture, market, legal and tax system, and local issues plus high levels off autonomy from the EU.
The EU is not the United States of Europe therefore cannot compete with the US toe to toe as it's not 300 million people speaking the same language and having the same culture and laws, but 300 million people spread across 27 countries, speaking 24 official languages, with little overlap in laws and culture from end to end, that's why there are no successful software giants that came out of Europe and there's no EU military.
Sure, you can bunch the countries together and get high GDP number but that's not an Apples to apples comparison with the US as every EU country has it's own completely different languages, economy, political and economic agenda, culture, market, legal and tax system, and local issues plus high levels off autonomy from the EU.
The EU is not the United States of Europe therefore cannot compete with the US toe to toe as it's not 300 million people speaking the same language and having the same culture and laws, but 300 million people spread across 27 countries, speaking 24 official languages, with little overlap in laws and culture from end to end, that's why there are no successful software giants that came out of Europe and there's no EU military.
> The EU is not a single united market like the US is
The US is not a single united market. Each state has it's own economy, political and economic agenda, culture, market, legal and taxes, and local issues.
> that's why there are no successful software giants that came out of Europe.
this is just false. There are plenty of succesful european software giants , and there are numerous "unicorns" too; Spotify being the textbook example. There's an absolutely booming video games industry, Fintech and crypto (not my thing but can't argue there's no money in it) have very very solid bases across the EU too.
There's no single reason as to why the US has a stronger software market than the EU, but I would put money on it being "it's where the money already is".
The US is not a single united market. Each state has it's own economy, political and economic agenda, culture, market, legal and taxes, and local issues.
> that's why there are no successful software giants that came out of Europe.
this is just false. There are plenty of succesful european software giants , and there are numerous "unicorns" too; Spotify being the textbook example. There's an absolutely booming video games industry, Fintech and crypto (not my thing but can't argue there's no money in it) have very very solid bases across the EU too.
There's no single reason as to why the US has a stronger software market than the EU, but I would put money on it being "it's where the money already is".
What I took form your reply is that you don't understand the difference between how the US and EU differ economically, culturally and politically and what impact that has on the EU vs US tech sectors, nor are you willing to listen to arguments, yet you insist there's no difference between the US and the EU.
Therefore to end the argument here and save my sanity, I'll stop replying to you. Have a good day sir.
Therefore to end the argument here and save my sanity, I'll stop replying to you. Have a good day sir.
> The EU is not a single united market like the US is.
You made the comparison between US and EU, so it's in play. QED.
You made the comparison between US and EU, so it's in play. QED.
I compared them to show they're not in the same ballpark. But whatever, you pick what you want to hear.
Sure, but let's compare apples to apples (UK to EU) as US is unique in being the world leading economy.
> Canada has […] the same language
Just don't open an office in the province of Quebec:
* https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/protest-montreal-bil...
* https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/breaking-down-th...
Just don't open an office in the province of Quebec:
* https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/protest-montreal-bil...
* https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/breaking-down-th...
> If an American company paid 80% of American salary to Canadians they would have their pick of Canada’s top talent.
I thought top talent Canadians who want high salaries just moved to the US :)
(Of course, this could be because such high salaries aren't offered in Canada.)
I thought top talent Canadians who want high salaries just moved to the US :)
(Of course, this could be because such high salaries aren't offered in Canada.)
[deleted]
A 1 bedroom in the area only costs around $2100 these days, taking that rent as 30% of your income, that would only require a salary of like $84,000 a year. That's probably on the low end of pay in Toronto for SWE these days, I can't imagine someone working at Microsoft downtown and not being able to afford a nice place.
Most of the office is for sales & support
Cost of living != cost of labor
Not many Toronto datapoints on levels.fyi for Microsoft, but it looks like their median Canadian comp is $146k cad for data points in the last year. Which is probably enough to afford living in Toronto. The higher end (90th percentile) is $262k cad, which is definitely enough. However, that is lower than you’d probably get in Redmond, though I’m not sure by how much exactly.
That p90 number (equivalent to 204k USD) looks like some typical SDE2 TCs in Redmond:
https://www.levels.fyi/company/Microsoft/salaries/Software-E...
https://www.levels.fyi/company/Microsoft/salaries/Software-E...
Or less than a junior L3 in the bay area at google.
And what does that salary get you in the bay area? Living in a tiny apartment with a homeless guy outside. No thanks.
Toronto and Vancouver has basically the equivalent priced real estate as the Bay Area.
If there's a large earthquake, what would happen to SF?
- old buildings that do not comply with seismic code because codes don't apply retroactively
- new buildings built on the liquefaction zone
- Millenium tower already has defects even without earthquakes
- some buildings are already sinking
Everything is going to get rekt. SF is a huge house of cards about to collapse.
But they will probably have it better than the guys at Hayward, CA... a town built on top of the Hayward fault line. Why would you do that?
That's not to mention the worsening crime rates, even at the more suburban places. Oh, and the traffic, having nowhere to park your car, having to spend 1 hour in traffic to move 1 mile at peak hours, and seeing the city collapse each time a major conference takes place. And public transport is full of hallucination-haunted junkies that get randomly triggered.
Sounds like exactly the right place to live, form a family and spend all my money. Or maybe not.
- old buildings that do not comply with seismic code because codes don't apply retroactively
- new buildings built on the liquefaction zone
- Millenium tower already has defects even without earthquakes
- some buildings are already sinking
Everything is going to get rekt. SF is a huge house of cards about to collapse.
But they will probably have it better than the guys at Hayward, CA... a town built on top of the Hayward fault line. Why would you do that?
That's not to mention the worsening crime rates, even at the more suburban places. Oh, and the traffic, having nowhere to park your car, having to spend 1 hour in traffic to move 1 mile at peak hours, and seeing the city collapse each time a major conference takes place. And public transport is full of hallucination-haunted junkies that get randomly triggered.
Sounds like exactly the right place to live, form a family and spend all my money. Or maybe not.
It lets you afford a million+ dollar house after a few years?
Yeah sure. And then you will get mugged on your own driveway* because crime rates do not care about how expensive your home is.
*: https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc7news.com/amp/asian-man-robb...
*: https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc7news.com/amp/asian-man-robb...
[redacted]
(Sorry, I don’t want to grumble.)
(Sorry, I don’t want to grumble.)
That sounds about right.
If you look at the net immigration flow between Canada and the US, the trend is pretty clear.
US immigrants of Canadian origin (2019): 11,900 [1]
Canadian immigrants of US origin (2019): 10,800 [2]
Of course, with 8.7x the population of Canada, you'd expect the net neutral number to 1:8.7 (Canada to US), but it's actually 1:1. So ~9x more Canadians per capita immigrate to the US than reverse.
[1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/us-immigr... [2] https://www.cicnews.com/2020/02/a-quarter-of-canadas-immigra...
If you look at the net immigration flow between Canada and the US, the trend is pretty clear.
US immigrants of Canadian origin (2019): 11,900 [1]
Canadian immigrants of US origin (2019): 10,800 [2]
Of course, with 8.7x the population of Canada, you'd expect the net neutral number to 1:8.7 (Canada to US), but it's actually 1:1. So ~9x more Canadians per capita immigrate to the US than reverse.
[1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/us-immigr... [2] https://www.cicnews.com/2020/02/a-quarter-of-canadas-immigra...
> The 132,000 square foot state-of-the-art office
That's it? This is a major HQ?
A typical office is going to need at 150 to 200sqft per person total between desk areas, common areas (kitchen, hallway) and conference rooms.
132,000 sqft is a tight fit for 70 people.
I guess they're expecting most employees to be mostly remote then.
Edit: Yep, I'm off my an order of magnitude! Not deleting this for the sake of posterity. Remember folks: don't post before your morning caffeine.
That's it? This is a major HQ?
A typical office is going to need at 150 to 200sqft per person total between desk areas, common areas (kitchen, hallway) and conference rooms.
132,000 sqft is a tight fit for 70 people.
I guess they're expecting most employees to be mostly remote then.
Edit: Yep, I'm off my an order of magnitude! Not deleting this for the sake of posterity. Remember folks: don't post before your morning caffeine.
Uh... using your own numbers - 132,000 / 200 = 660.
I think you may be off by an order of magnitude.
Is this an actual HQ or just another remote office?
Sounds like it’s a “Canadian HQ”, which is probably just branding for a large remote office with country specific operations based out of there.
Definitely feels like calling something an HQ is a press move though.
Definitely feels like calling something an HQ is a press move though.
When I hear "HQ" I was expecting something like Amazon's HQ2. An office with a couple hundred/thousand workers is not as exciting.
I was wondering that as well because I remember a long time ago when Bill Gates threatened to move the MS HQ to Canada because of something political that I don't recall anymore.
...back in 2000, during the enormous US DOJ antitrust which seriously threatened to break up MSFT [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....] [https://observer.com/2000/06/the-vancouver-solution-what-if-...]
Calling that "something political that I don't recall anymore" is downplaying it. It was very real. It wasn't partisan either: Sen Orrin Hatch (R-UT) was very pro-Utah companies like Novell and WordPerfect. And there was a 1995 antitrust involving RealNetworks before Microsoft-Netscape; Sen Maria Cantwell (D-WA) was a former VP at RealNetworks.
Some commentators have said MSFT deliberately tactically kept its HQ just south of the Canadian border, for leveraging ongoing negotiations on taxes, IP, visa laws and quotas, etc.
Calling that "something political that I don't recall anymore" is downplaying it. It was very real. It wasn't partisan either: Sen Orrin Hatch (R-UT) was very pro-Utah companies like Novell and WordPerfect. And there was a 1995 antitrust involving RealNetworks before Microsoft-Netscape; Sen Maria Cantwell (D-WA) was a former VP at RealNetworks.
Some commentators have said MSFT deliberately tactically kept its HQ just south of the Canadian border, for leveraging ongoing negotiations on taxes, IP, visa laws and quotas, etc.
I'd guess the answer is "yes"
I hope we get more offices opening up in Vancouver soon as well. Toronto has more momentum as the tech centre but Vancouver has better weather and is a beautiful place to live.
How do homeless issues compare? I know when I was a kid there was a big problem in Vancouver, I imagine it’s only gotten worse.
It's more spread out than Vancouver, and might be a nuisance if you live in the downtown core.
You're not gonna personally get yelled at/followed every week, but confrontations are not rare. I know several people including myself who have experienced it a few times.
There's a huge, poorly addressed mental health issue in Ontario, and downtown Toronto concentrates a lot of that.
Tangent: Coming from a third world country, homelessness in North America has a huge contrast with South America: my own anecdata is that mental health issues among the homeless are more common in NA and they're very irate and confrontational. I often wonder why there's such a contrast.
You're not gonna personally get yelled at/followed every week, but confrontations are not rare. I know several people including myself who have experienced it a few times.
There's a huge, poorly addressed mental health issue in Ontario, and downtown Toronto concentrates a lot of that.
Tangent: Coming from a third world country, homelessness in North America has a huge contrast with South America: my own anecdata is that mental health issues among the homeless are more common in NA and they're very irate and confrontational. I often wonder why there's such a contrast.
You don't find something like East Hastings in Toronto, but sheer numbers are comparable. Toronto just has a more even geographic distribution of people living rough. Toronto also pioneered mixed-income housing and recently tore down its 1960s-era "urban renewal" projects so it has a longer history of addressing homelessness, but it's still a major and mostly invisible problem (people living rough is generally not a homelessness problem but a mental health problem).
My spouse is a case worker in the housing department of an Ontario municipality so I get all kinds of inside information on the subject.
My spouse is a case worker in the housing department of an Ontario municipality so I get all kinds of inside information on the subject.
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There are homeless people in both Vancouver and Toronto (and every major city in the world, as far as I know). They are people who ended up in very bad situations, not issues. Most of the time they don’t bother anyone, sometimes they are noisy or pester me for money. It doesn’t bother me.
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Sad for Toronto to have those toxic ppl intruding.
Congrats to the Microsoft team! this is well deserved
Tech companies will headquarter anywhere but central America.
If they could deal with the huge transnational organized crime and drug trafficking problem then I sure there would be more people moving to the Central America region.
Transnational organized crime in Costa Rica? First time I've heard of that
Costa Rica has the same population as Metro Toronto and 15 times the rate of violent crime. It might be better than some of its neighbors but it doesn't remotely compare favorably to Europe or Canada.
And Canada likely has better reporting as well (because countries with low crime usually tend to have better reporting and countries with high crime tend to have worse), so the true difference may be even higher.
Cherry picking is a fallacy.
Is it though? It clearly invalidates your over-generalization of the region.
Well, not seeing too many here in Africa either.
> "Well, not seeing too many here in Africa either."
Microsoft has recently opened a development center in Kenya.
Microsoft has recently opened a development center in Kenya.
Is it just support? Do they do dev?
Actual engineering work https://news.microsoft.com/en-xm/features/furthering-our-inv...
"two initial sites in Nairobi, Kenya and Lagos, Nigeria... intend to recruit 100 full-time engineers by the end of the year [2022] – expanding to 500 across the two sites by 2023"
Yes, because rule of law is important?
We’ve had about 4 developers move to Canada already. I wouldn’t be surprised if retaining these developers is one of Microsoft’s intended goals of this “HQ”.