Instagram gets worse with dark patterns lifted from TikTok(techcrunch.com)
techcrunch.com
Instagram gets worse with dark patterns lifted from TikTok
https://techcrunch.com/2022/07/25/instagram-gets-worse-with-dark-patterns-lifted-from-tiktok/
121 comments
I'm not as worried about the tracking as much as I'm baffled by how psychological manipulation is now a commonly accepted practice on social platforms. That totally obliterates any trustworthiness they could present as a business. Children suffer the most in this fake celebrity game.
I use these apps a lot because I promote music I make... I don't really use black hat techniques to do so, but many people who do are completely robbing creator funds and getting far more exposure than most of the honest and most talented creators all combined. The platforms favor memes and things that don't promote any business outside of the platform, so it's made psychological manipulation and subtle suggestion very popular in pretty much every video. The endorphin rush people used to get is dying as videos turn more and more hostile and shockingly towards influencing viewers consumerism habits.
I think ethics are everything though, so I don't leverage my black hat development knowledge against platforms just to be heard, and don't waste tons of money on ads like the highly viewed accounts do... Accounts try to manipulate you into giving them your money, the platforms work to manipulate you into giving them your money for ads, it will eventually wear itself out once the money dries up or people catch on that most people on these platforms aren't really making good money, except for the platforms.
I try to always post non-psych-manipulative music related things for followers as well as cynical shitposts in protest as the platforms slowly direct my views towards overseas viewers that will never really purchase nor stream my music. It's rather grim, but I'm sharpening my video editing skills, and it motivates me to keep making music that I can take to whatever slowly corrupted social shit show comes next... touché!
I use these apps a lot because I promote music I make... I don't really use black hat techniques to do so, but many people who do are completely robbing creator funds and getting far more exposure than most of the honest and most talented creators all combined. The platforms favor memes and things that don't promote any business outside of the platform, so it's made psychological manipulation and subtle suggestion very popular in pretty much every video. The endorphin rush people used to get is dying as videos turn more and more hostile and shockingly towards influencing viewers consumerism habits.
I think ethics are everything though, so I don't leverage my black hat development knowledge against platforms just to be heard, and don't waste tons of money on ads like the highly viewed accounts do... Accounts try to manipulate you into giving them your money, the platforms work to manipulate you into giving them your money for ads, it will eventually wear itself out once the money dries up or people catch on that most people on these platforms aren't really making good money, except for the platforms.
I try to always post non-psych-manipulative music related things for followers as well as cynical shitposts in protest as the platforms slowly direct my views towards overseas viewers that will never really purchase nor stream my music. It's rather grim, but I'm sharpening my video editing skills, and it motivates me to keep making music that I can take to whatever slowly corrupted social shit show comes next... touché!
I have decided some time ago that I will not work for any company who is engaging in such practices. I will not feed the manipulation machine, to the best of my abilities. I don’t have to quit tech entirely but focus on parts where I can do good for people.
I’m now in talks with a foundation who is building communication tools for social and public initiatives. I don’t know if the idea will work out in the end but there are alternatives worth pursuing.
I really don’t understand the engineers and designers working at Facebook and similar companies. They cannot all be ignorant. There has to be some cultural angle of disdain for the regular user at play.
I’m now in talks with a foundation who is building communication tools for social and public initiatives. I don’t know if the idea will work out in the end but there are alternatives worth pursuing.
I really don’t understand the engineers and designers working at Facebook and similar companies. They cannot all be ignorant. There has to be some cultural angle of disdain for the regular user at play.
> I tried to avoid doing these things for awhile but nobody pays me to be ethical.
it's because any way to make money that is currently legal (but some might consider unethical) is the fittest agent in the darwinian natural selection of economic competition.
So any ethical businesses who forgo a more profitable, but slightly less ethical method, would be out-competed. Over time, therefore, what remains must be businesses whose ethical consideration is trumped by profit considerations.
Instagram is following this exactly - tiktok has better retention and user engagement using the dark patterns, and instagram would not survive if they can't keep up.
So it's really up to the law to set the standard. Akin to how in the old days, environmental protection laws don't exist, and the environment is polluted, there needs to be laws to protect the consumer's "digital environment". Unfortunately, the law is slow to catchup - i doubt i will see it in my life time, and often, the law only catches up after significant damage has been done.
it's because any way to make money that is currently legal (but some might consider unethical) is the fittest agent in the darwinian natural selection of economic competition.
So any ethical businesses who forgo a more profitable, but slightly less ethical method, would be out-competed. Over time, therefore, what remains must be businesses whose ethical consideration is trumped by profit considerations.
Instagram is following this exactly - tiktok has better retention and user engagement using the dark patterns, and instagram would not survive if they can't keep up.
So it's really up to the law to set the standard. Akin to how in the old days, environmental protection laws don't exist, and the environment is polluted, there needs to be laws to protect the consumer's "digital environment". Unfortunately, the law is slow to catchup - i doubt i will see it in my life time, and often, the law only catches up after significant damage has been done.
- Many of these business models have been subsidized by governments.
- I'm not sure, though the reasoning may be that their future existence is ultimately more valuable as a population control system than merely an ad network.
- Some have argued that online ads are in a bubble. I don't know.
- A free market does not seem to exist though.
Thoughts?
- I'm not sure, though the reasoning may be that their future existence is ultimately more valuable as a population control system than merely an ad network.
- Some have argued that online ads are in a bubble. I don't know.
- A free market does not seem to exist though.
Thoughts?
I think its less an ad bubble and more like something similar to government use it or lose it spending. There is a sort of global hot potato/musical chairs thing going on. No one wants to be the first or last one to cut their ad spending so its a stand off.
I've looked at some ad spending stuff at companies in the past and while their official numbers always "added up" there always seemed to me to be huge logic gaps that missed lots of obvious overspending. Those things are always hand-waved away as some sort of force multiplier or other nonsense. AKA don't cut our budget or sales will go away we dare you!
I've posted a longer comment on here about an adventure in cutting ad spending at a company I was at because of a minor feud I had with the marketing manager. There were huge areas where the cost/profit from ads was destroying profit margin. I made some tremendous efforts to prove we could make major spending cuts on advertising without losing sales to the owner and ceo and was successful. I probably would not have been able to do it if the marketing guy was not constantly blaming their failures on IT so I stood up for us by spending my personal time making accurate reports and dashboards about the spending and proved him wrong. (he and a couple others lost their job) (no they didn't stand up and clap its a real story)
I've looked at some ad spending stuff at companies in the past and while their official numbers always "added up" there always seemed to me to be huge logic gaps that missed lots of obvious overspending. Those things are always hand-waved away as some sort of force multiplier or other nonsense. AKA don't cut our budget or sales will go away we dare you!
I've posted a longer comment on here about an adventure in cutting ad spending at a company I was at because of a minor feud I had with the marketing manager. There were huge areas where the cost/profit from ads was destroying profit margin. I made some tremendous efforts to prove we could make major spending cuts on advertising without losing sales to the owner and ceo and was successful. I probably would not have been able to do it if the marketing guy was not constantly blaming their failures on IT so I stood up for us by spending my personal time making accurate reports and dashboards about the spending and proved him wrong. (he and a couple others lost their job) (no they didn't stand up and clap its a real story)
This doesn't happen enough. Past 10-15 years or so, thanks to tech overwhelming them, Marketing depts have lost their way. Its not their fault. They get all their training from google, youtube, fb etc on how to think about these systems and when things dont work out the usual reaction is, but we are just doing what Google/FB told us to do.
>They get all their training from google, youtube, fb
Not sure if you are sarcastic or not. I totally blame them. I mean would you ask your drug dealer how to quit drugs?
Not sure if you are sarcastic or not. I totally blame them. I mean would you ask your drug dealer how to quit drugs?
It is not up to the law to set the standard. That is giving people ethical permission to sell their skill to the highest bidder.
No one makes you work for casinos, big pharma, anti-human-rights political groups, or surveillance capitalism companies.
If you work for an unethical company you share responsibility for the harm they do.
If a company you work for is behaving unethically, quit, and find another job. I promise it is an option.
No one makes you work for casinos, big pharma, anti-human-rights political groups, or surveillance capitalism companies.
If you work for an unethical company you share responsibility for the harm they do.
If a company you work for is behaving unethically, quit, and find another job. I promise it is an option.
This is a funny example of a dark pattern: along with undoubtedly evil entities like anti-human-rights groups, you mentioned big pharma, probably to promote your anti-scientific agenda.
It absolutely is up to the law to set the standard. Wishing people would all live up to your ethical standards for no reason will always have the same result: no difference. You can wish it all you want but it’s never going to actually cause an improvement to the world.
Making unethical behavior illegal actually does have an impact on what people do because it changes their cost/reward decision
Making unethical behavior illegal actually does have an impact on what people do because it changes their cost/reward decision
There are plenty of jobs that don't require you to implement tracking/evil things. There's very possibly a pay cut in doing so..
I should specify that I am an iOS engineer.
I like iOS apps that aren't full of tracking nonsense (and the nutrition labels might help.)
But dark patterns abound, and mobile gaming is largely a hell of monetization and slot-machine mechanics.
But dark patterns abound, and mobile gaming is largely a hell of monetization and slot-machine mechanics.
It’s so frustrating that my iPhone 12 Pro Max could be a perfect platform for playing serious games, but instead I have to haul around a Nintendo Switch.
I know my iPhone can render excellent graphics, I played to level 60 on Diablo Immortal then got out before they could extract more than $10 from me!
I know my iPhone can render excellent graphics, I played to level 60 on Diablo Immortal then got out before they could extract more than $10 from me!
There are a lot of legitimate b2c healthtech companies looking for app developers.
And there are thousands if not millions of Americans without healthcare. Not a judgement against you or anyone looking for healthtech jobs, more power to you/them, but that's where I personally draw the line as someone looking for a (hopefully ethical) software/Web development job.
I think there's some genuine confusion in this comment. Do you think that you are helping Americans get healthcare by... not working for healthcare companies?
Most of these startups are aimed at improving access via telemedicine, accessibility apps, price comparison apps, etc. I'm not sure what you're imagining.
Most of these startups are aimed at improving access via telemedicine, accessibility apps, price comparison apps, etc. I'm not sure what you're imagining.
Nope, I'm helping Americans get universal healthcare in other ways.
But I'm acknowledging that for me personally, working for, selling my talent to and/or profiting from the "healthcare" industry as it exists today without a universal option to provide healthcare to every American, full stop, is a breach of my own ethics.
But I'm acknowledging that for me personally, working for, selling my talent to and/or profiting from the "healthcare" industry as it exists today without a universal option to provide healthcare to every American, full stop, is a breach of my own ethics.
I think it's more likely you are doing nothing meaningful at all to help Americans get healthcare, and feel better about it by making cheap posture posts online.
I did some work for a big London-based healthtech company and was horrified to see that their mobile apps were loaded with trackers, Facebook SDK included. Healthtech doesn't imply no tracking.
If you can develop IOS apps, You can also develop other things.
Become backend developer. Pretty much everybody needs them.
Become backend developer. Pretty much everybody needs them.
Let the lifelong learning continue? ;)
Yep, getting into some hobbies lately to spark some passion, since I already have one eye out the door.
You don't need to quit tech. You need to find a position that helps solve real problems for the greater good. If you think about it, companies like Apple are very pro-privacy and don't make money by selling data or tracking folks. Or look into other companies like those non-profits like Mozilla or Signal. Your pay will go down but you'll be content. Or maybe, you could look into building your own company.
Facebook is a cesspit of delusion and the "metaverse" initiative they took takes us to a point of no return for all their apps. Tiktok I would say is even worse given how we basically have millions of young teens oscillating on the borderline of being "famous" and sexualizing themselves. Stay away from such social media platforms or those that offer completely "free" products and you are good.
Facebook is a cesspit of delusion and the "metaverse" initiative they took takes us to a point of no return for all their apps. Tiktok I would say is even worse given how we basically have millions of young teens oscillating on the borderline of being "famous" and sexualizing themselves. Stay away from such social media platforms or those that offer completely "free" products and you are good.
I applied to several Apple positions this year, they are still hell-bent on hybrid/on-site positions.
If apple is pro privacy, they wouldn't be putting lidar scanning on their phones.
Whether it's enabled or not, Lidar is military-grade tech that has no place on most cell phones,
Let's not act like the entire industry isn't heavily invested in data collection... It does damage to real discussions about privacy and consumer protection for everyone.
Whether it's enabled or not, Lidar is military-grade tech that has no place on most cell phones,
Let's not act like the entire industry isn't heavily invested in data collection... It does damage to real discussions about privacy and consumer protection for everyone.
Lidar is not military grade. Where did you pull that from?
You can get Lidar on all sorts of civilian applications, from height mapping on drone photography, to driving assistance on cars. The lidar on phones is over-kill, depth mapping in photos or cheap crappy AR are not great use cases, but that doesn't make it a privacy problem.
You can get Lidar on all sorts of civilian applications, from height mapping on drone photography, to driving assistance on cars. The lidar on phones is over-kill, depth mapping in photos or cheap crappy AR are not great use cases, but that doesn't make it a privacy problem.
> Lidar is military-grade tech
encryption is military-grade tech too.
encryption is military-grade tech too.
Yeah, but encryption is purposed as a security feature, Lidar is a data collection feature.
https://www.opentopography.org/blog/iphone-lidar-application...
https://www.opentopography.org/blog/iphone-lidar-application...
So is the camera on your phone purely a data collection feature that should be removed?
How about the touch screen/keyboard?
How about the touch screen/keyboard?
Input devices like cameras and keyboards are necessary for interaction, and everyone who creates pretty much knows how to use them.
Lidar is completely different tech that can scan an entire room, faces of everyone in it without their consent, and even devices and products in the room with you, even things out of camera view.
Vastly more invasive, and most people are completely unaware it is on phones now and what it can do.
C'mon man... It's not an argument point, it's necessary privacy threat awareness.
Lidar is completely different tech that can scan an entire room, faces of everyone in it without their consent, and even devices and products in the room with you, even things out of camera view.
Vastly more invasive, and most people are completely unaware it is on phones now and what it can do.
C'mon man... It's not an argument point, it's necessary privacy threat awareness.
Phone cameras can scan an entire room of people, and faces of everyone in it without their consent. Including devices and products in the room.
Lidar will struggle with items in the room as it is simply an depth detection tech so it will simply see a box, rather than chocolate chip cookies.
I think lidar is an odd one, that's all. Phone cameras are significantly worse for privacy.
Lidar will struggle with items in the room as it is simply an depth detection tech so it will simply see a box, rather than chocolate chip cookies.
I think lidar is an odd one, that's all. Phone cameras are significantly worse for privacy.
I've reached the exact same place. The entire software and internet space strikes me as having become a monster, and I increasingly have great difficulty convincing myself that it's OK to be a part of it.
The problem is that software engineering is my only marketable skill. I've fallen into a trap.
The problem is that software engineering is my only marketable skill. I've fallen into a trap.
Well, the good news is that there are plenty of companies out there who are solving Real Problems that need good developers.
Perhaps it’s time that bright, young, talented minds are dedicated to solving Real Problems again in the world.
Perhaps it’s time that bright, young, talented minds are dedicated to solving Real Problems again in the world.
Good, user respectful software exists in many forms. IRC is still around, gemini is pleasant, I like Matrix too.
I don't think you'll get the huge audience of these other platforms. That may be a feature.
I don't think you'll get the huge audience of these other platforms. That may be a feature.
Is IRC respecting you when it has no encryption, no authentication, and frequently netsplits?
Not to totally dismiss any concerns, but most IRC servers support TLS. While not end-to-end in the sense that the server can read all of the messages, encryption is available. And in the case of IRC, with the most common use case being channels for particular communities which often need moderation, I don’t think the fact that the server can read the chat is a big issue. I wouldn’t advocate for it as a way to privately and individually communicate with people one-on-one, but I think it’s pretty okay for what it is.
The nice thing with IRC, though, is that by not being one massive centralized entity where all channels in existence reside, you’re not depending on one particular network in the same way you might be dependent on services like Discord. You can run your own server for your own community where you can set your own rules and manage everything the way you want to.
IRCv3 also has SASL [1]. And more rudimentary forms of authentication have been around for ages on most servers.
[1]: https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/sasl-3.1
The nice thing with IRC, though, is that by not being one massive centralized entity where all channels in existence reside, you’re not depending on one particular network in the same way you might be dependent on services like Discord. You can run your own server for your own community where you can set your own rules and manage everything the way you want to.
IRCv3 also has SASL [1]. And more rudimentary forms of authentication have been around for ages on most servers.
[1]: https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/sasl-3.1
Check out Biotech! Lots of software development and machine learning going on with very, very minimal marketing activity involved compared to tech, finance, etc.
You can still work in the fintech or automotive sectors where you won't have to do ads. Most people I've talked with that were doing frontend and one who was doing Java were all working on ad related stuff. A disproportionate waste of time and energy.
It's rather telling that the ad tools on platforms are becoming the biggest facet of development jobs in social media. In looking through them myself, I've noticed how gamified and geared towards addiction they have become. Platforms encourage users to "experiment" until they find our what works, and everyone has to figure out how to target audiences properly, and the configuration options are very intense and varying (based on what is trending) each time... It's almost like playing roulette in a casino.
Lord have mercy on all the inexperienced kids and others who just want to create videos and have them seen when they try ads... A lot of experimental money is gambled away on ads daily... I'm pretty sure it's a big pile of income annually for platforms.
Lord have mercy on all the inexperienced kids and others who just want to create videos and have them seen when they try ads... A lot of experimental money is gambled away on ads daily... I'm pretty sure it's a big pile of income annually for platforms.
You may be interested in the fediverse in particular and in open-source nonprofits in general.
It doesn't have to be that way. You can make your own software, or make your own line in the sand. Wherever you go, software development skills will have some use. They're not going to waste.
This weapon-grade PsyOps stuff should be illegal. But that will never happen, it's just too profitable.
There's way to more to software than whatever it is you've been working on
i used to work as a develper for an adtech company, and it made me really happy to quit that world. Not every tech company is using ad-based business model. Look for others.
After working for so many companies that went down the surveillance capitalism path I finally decided I would only work on security and privacy projects. It turns out even with this limitation I have had endless job options. So much so I decided to start my own consulting company so I could pick and choose the most interesting projects across many non-survcap companies.
I am a -lot- happier. Also as an independent contractor I have more control of the tools I use and am free to use and support only open source software on my workstations.
I am a -lot- happier. Also as an independent contractor I have more control of the tools I use and am free to use and support only open source software on my workstations.
Interesting. I’m wracking my brain trying to figure out a similar industry that I can get excited about. The cat and mouse nature of security and privacy puts me off a bit. Maybe green tech? Appreciate the comment nonetheless!
Green tech isn't terrible - I spent 4.5 years there. But here's my review of where I was: https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Inspire-RV...
Instagram didn't out-innovate Snapchat, but they did destroy them. Turns out "Photo stories" wasn't a moat - it was a feature trivial to copy and deliver at a higher quality.
And while Snapchat's AR filters were (and still are) state-of-the-art, those are only short-term distractions and don't have long-term stickiness.
They'll have a much harder time with TikTok. Tiktok's secret juice isn't the Slightly-Longer-Vines. It's the recommendation algorithm. It's INCREDIBLY addictive.
It's also (today) wildly incompatible with Instagram's bread and butter, which is celebrity influencers peddling masked branded content.
Tiktok's very brilliance is that it's egalitarian - every video gets 100 views. And if you're a heavy user (say 1 hour a day) you will almost every day discover some amazing new creator or video BEFORE they go viral. (or as viral as they might in this app where you get 15 seconds of fame not 15 minutes)
I predict that Instagram will fail to beat Tiktok here, but TikTok will be trying hard to be one of the big boys, and ruin what makes it amazing by attracting and embracing celebrities and brands (already starting to happen).
If Instagram can hold on to their celebrities long enough (and i think they will), they'll win out in the end when people get bored of TikTok after they self-sabotage their recommendation algorithm.
And while Snapchat's AR filters were (and still are) state-of-the-art, those are only short-term distractions and don't have long-term stickiness.
They'll have a much harder time with TikTok. Tiktok's secret juice isn't the Slightly-Longer-Vines. It's the recommendation algorithm. It's INCREDIBLY addictive.
It's also (today) wildly incompatible with Instagram's bread and butter, which is celebrity influencers peddling masked branded content.
Tiktok's very brilliance is that it's egalitarian - every video gets 100 views. And if you're a heavy user (say 1 hour a day) you will almost every day discover some amazing new creator or video BEFORE they go viral. (or as viral as they might in this app where you get 15 seconds of fame not 15 minutes)
I predict that Instagram will fail to beat Tiktok here, but TikTok will be trying hard to be one of the big boys, and ruin what makes it amazing by attracting and embracing celebrities and brands (already starting to happen).
If Instagram can hold on to their celebrities long enough (and i think they will), they'll win out in the end when people get bored of TikTok after they self-sabotage their recommendation algorithm.
Every social media product eventually gets out of fashion for the current generation and gets taken over and Meta knew that decades ago for Facebook. They have another 10+ years of relevance due to Instagram.
> They'll have a much harder time with TikTok. Tiktok's secret juice isn't the Slightly-Longer-Vines. It's the recommendation algorithm. It's INCREDIBLY addictive.
As long as the corporations, large advertisers, existing influencers and celebrities and mainstream media, keep paying big money to TikTok to game the algorithm and flood their content, ads on there to reach more users, the ruining of TikTok will happen, just like it did with Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, Reddit, etc and the users will always be in last vs the ones who can pay big money.
I predict that TikTok will screw its users over (which it is already doing) due to investor, advertiser pressure to keep it up and this would definitely happen after they IPO to give them a return. The longer they postpone the IPO, it will get worse it for them and especially the users.
It doesn't matter if it is Instagram. If they can't do it will be from someone else. It is the same old power law happening again. The early users who got addicted to it will complain that TikTok is ruining the platform and will no longer feel addicted anymore and leave to find the next addictive hit. The late users will follow suit leaving it to the bots to pick up the pieces.
Rinse and repeat for 'current trend'.
> They'll have a much harder time with TikTok. Tiktok's secret juice isn't the Slightly-Longer-Vines. It's the recommendation algorithm. It's INCREDIBLY addictive.
As long as the corporations, large advertisers, existing influencers and celebrities and mainstream media, keep paying big money to TikTok to game the algorithm and flood their content, ads on there to reach more users, the ruining of TikTok will happen, just like it did with Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, Reddit, etc and the users will always be in last vs the ones who can pay big money.
I predict that TikTok will screw its users over (which it is already doing) due to investor, advertiser pressure to keep it up and this would definitely happen after they IPO to give them a return. The longer they postpone the IPO, it will get worse it for them and especially the users.
It doesn't matter if it is Instagram. If they can't do it will be from someone else. It is the same old power law happening again. The early users who got addicted to it will complain that TikTok is ruining the platform and will no longer feel addicted anymore and leave to find the next addictive hit. The late users will follow suit leaving it to the bots to pick up the pieces.
Rinse and repeat for 'current trend'.
The top dark pattern Instagram employs is sending you internal notifications that you cannot turn off no matter of your notification settings. If you have multiple accounts it’s guaranteed you will have a little red dot sitting there making you switch to one of the accounts to clear it. I absolutely hate this and it’s going straight against their imaginary goal of being a responsible company that supports mental well being, screen time and other ways of getting a mental break when you might need it.
This is one of the most trash patterns in software development, because it trains you to ignore in-app notifications altogether, so you end up having a feature that theoretically could've been useful made utterly useless by the fact the real signal is spammed out by a million tedious marketing things.
I don't know if these patterns were pioneered by Chinese software companies, but from at least 5 years ago they were already doing this in pretty much every mobile app. Infuriatingly, my online banking app did it too, so you couldn't even just log on to check your account balance without having a half dozen pop-ups and flashing icons and weird mini-apps trying to get you to click on something almost, but not quite entirely unlike a banking product.
Nowadays I even see it on ordinary western e-commerce websites like Booking.com, or (most recently, post-redesign) the account management page of my mobile provider. I have no idea what the product managers responsible for this are thinking, because it just makes using the app an exercise in disappointment. If I click on a notification I want to get something that genuinely is important to me, not some kind of alert from a half-assed feature I never wanted in the first place.
I don't know if these patterns were pioneered by Chinese software companies, but from at least 5 years ago they were already doing this in pretty much every mobile app. Infuriatingly, my online banking app did it too, so you couldn't even just log on to check your account balance without having a half dozen pop-ups and flashing icons and weird mini-apps trying to get you to click on something almost, but not quite entirely unlike a banking product.
Nowadays I even see it on ordinary western e-commerce websites like Booking.com, or (most recently, post-redesign) the account management page of my mobile provider. I have no idea what the product managers responsible for this are thinking, because it just makes using the app an exercise in disappointment. If I click on a notification I want to get something that genuinely is important to me, not some kind of alert from a half-assed feature I never wanted in the first place.
I tried Instagram in 2020 but shortly deleted it for precisely this abuse.
Instagram was trending down but has taken a dive in recent months. Just an unbearable proportion of ads and lame suggested content. You end up playing whack-a-mole trying to get it to stop showing you rubbish.
It had been a not-insignificant part of my work but now I just resent using it at all.
It had been a not-insignificant part of my work but now I just resent using it at all.
Probably because what makes TikTok attractive isn't it's dark features that only Instagram would think was important, but how amazing it is at learning your interests with the lowest amount of required input (just swiping down quickly or not after a new video starts).
I was one of those people that thought TikTok was a modern garbage machine that only produced low quality dancing videos of young girls for zoomers. But then I read on HN that you just need to commit for a little while and it will learn what you like.
I was amazed at how much this is true. I'm now getting Scott Manley-esque space news, tech stuff, hyper local restaurant recommendations, real gameplay of game genres I actually like, etc. Basically what took me years to carefully subscribe to on Youtube was done in a few months on TikTok and it only seems to get more relevant (note: YT always still wins in pure intellectual signal vs noise).
The whole addictive thing is obviously an issue, especially for kids, but I'm an adult who grew up with tech and I've learned how to carefully balance internet/life, so it's mostly pure upside for me.
I was one of those people that thought TikTok was a modern garbage machine that only produced low quality dancing videos of young girls for zoomers. But then I read on HN that you just need to commit for a little while and it will learn what you like.
I was amazed at how much this is true. I'm now getting Scott Manley-esque space news, tech stuff, hyper local restaurant recommendations, real gameplay of game genres I actually like, etc. Basically what took me years to carefully subscribe to on Youtube was done in a few months on TikTok and it only seems to get more relevant (note: YT always still wins in pure intellectual signal vs noise).
The whole addictive thing is obviously an issue, especially for kids, but I'm an adult who grew up with tech and I've learned how to carefully balance internet/life, so it's mostly pure upside for me.
But I don't want any content recommendations. I don't like the idea of infinite channels and endless content to flood my skull. I use Instagram to keep up with what friends and family are doing. I just want to see the content my friends put up. Not the things they like, not similar accounts, not similar industries, not hot topics. And when I've caught up, I want to see the previous content, not unrelated accounts and promotions.
I work in travel content and on my work account I want to see the content of my clients and prospective clients I've chosen to follow (to see the work they're selecting or which videographers they're using), but instead it pushes everything else on me.
More than ever, these apps are about consuming content - ever increasing amounts of it. I seriously resent that.
I work in travel content and on my work account I want to see the content of my clients and prospective clients I've chosen to follow (to see the work they're selecting or which videographers they're using), but instead it pushes everything else on me.
More than ever, these apps are about consuming content - ever increasing amounts of it. I seriously resent that.
Apparently you and I are outside the market. This is exactly what I used Instagram, Facebook (when I was on it) and Twitter for. Only Twitter remains. There was a brief period (around 2005-2008 I think) where the majority of the people I knew IRL (incl. family) were online talking to each other, showing each other what they were doing, no political discussions, no fighting, it was a flash in the pan in the end. I don't think we can ever go back to that as there was no money in it.
Unfortunately, unless your family and social circles are all within some particular niche, you're at the mercy of the platforms exploiting the masses. I remember when Twitter was a bit like early Instagram, hanging out with friends, then the bulk moved to Instagram and just left business people and sub-interests. I'm lucky in that my Twitter feed is not very political/enraged like much of the US, so it's a pretty decent place for me.
I used Instagram everyday, mainly to follow local restaurants and shops. The new feed is awful and made me uninstall it, because it’s now:
- 1/3 ads
- 1/3 suggested content
- 1/3 actual content I followed, among which more and more tended to be sponsored
That’s just not worth my time.
- 1/3 ads
- 1/3 suggested content
- 1/3 actual content I followed, among which more and more tended to be sponsored
That’s just not worth my time.
Exactly. It ends up feeling like almost everything you're watching is advertising.
If you use Instagram passively like television, you're watching usually-polished content interspersed with ads, which probably feels OK. Maybe this is the majority of people. If you use Instagram just to follow friends, unless their content is all very polished (it generally isn't - it's them walking their kid to school or a basic photo at the beach) then your feed feels like:
If you use Instagram passively like television, you're watching usually-polished content interspersed with ads, which probably feels OK. Maybe this is the majority of people. If you use Instagram just to follow friends, unless their content is all very polished (it generally isn't - it's them walking their kid to school or a basic photo at the beach) then your feed feels like:
1/6th mediocre (but relevant to you) content
1/6th creator-type friends promoting places/things
1/3rd suggested content
1/3rd ads
Yup, they finally did it. Same thing they did to FB to get me to leave is now leading me to leave one of the apps I really loved to use when it first came out.
Yeah. It's horrible. I'm on there because that's where my audience is for now, but I despise both the platform and company to a degree that's hard to express in words.
It's weird. You'd think that inspiring customer loyalty by building a good product would be considered good business, but even as I'm typing that, I'm realizing how comically naive it sounds. Meta and its ilk are 100% about lock-in (and, to no small degree, addiction); you ultimately realize you're not using them because you want to, but because you have to. (Unless, of course, you're willing to sacrifice being able to share your work with friends and build a following. Some people are. I'm not.)
I've found that blocking every user that displays video ads, and reporting the ad as "offensive", does seem to cut down on garbage after a while.
It's weird. You'd think that inspiring customer loyalty by building a good product would be considered good business, but even as I'm typing that, I'm realizing how comically naive it sounds. Meta and its ilk are 100% about lock-in (and, to no small degree, addiction); you ultimately realize you're not using them because you want to, but because you have to. (Unless, of course, you're willing to sacrifice being able to share your work with friends and build a following. Some people are. I'm not.)
I've found that blocking every user that displays video ads, and reporting the ad as "offensive", does seem to cut down on garbage after a while.
I always assume that abusing the "offensive" report option would put me on a list where they just crank up the ads even more. I do tend to report some ad categories (supplements, cults, etc) as scams though.
I think if it's "I think this is offensive", they don't take any action—that just tells their algorithm what sort of thing you don't want to see.
For the more specific/serious stuff—reporting scams, violence, etc—they'll investigate (or pretend they did) and report back to you, but I don't get any of those responses for the "offensive" option.
For the more specific/serious stuff—reporting scams, violence, etc—they'll investigate (or pretend they did) and report back to you, but I don't get any of those responses for the "offensive" option.
Besides the complaints of the author, I noticed recently that:
- They stopped displaying the name of the account under the stories circles at the top, so you don't know who's story you're clicking on unless you memorized their profile photo. Since I only want to click on stories of people I know closely, I now choose not to watch any stories at all.
- They moved the activity (heart) from the main bottom icon navigation and up to the top right next to the dm icon, signifying they're giving it less relevance than it's new replacement, the shopping icon!
- They're pushing shopping in seemingly half the posts showing up in the newsfeed now.
The combination of shopping and forced watching of video reels has me ready to cancel my account entirely. I don't use instagram to watch videos or shop, but even if I did decide to do one of those, which I never would, I don't want it forced on me.
- They stopped displaying the name of the account under the stories circles at the top, so you don't know who's story you're clicking on unless you memorized their profile photo. Since I only want to click on stories of people I know closely, I now choose not to watch any stories at all.
- They moved the activity (heart) from the main bottom icon navigation and up to the top right next to the dm icon, signifying they're giving it less relevance than it's new replacement, the shopping icon!
- They're pushing shopping in seemingly half the posts showing up in the newsfeed now.
The combination of shopping and forced watching of video reels has me ready to cancel my account entirely. I don't use instagram to watch videos or shop, but even if I did decide to do one of those, which I never would, I don't want it forced on me.
Twitter has also been doing this since a few months ago. And there's no way to disable it, no matter how often I tell it to "see this less often". Sometimes half the posts I see on the feed are recommended posts from people I don't follow nor care about. Not to mention the "notifications" bell has been useless for years now because all my notifications are suggested posts from people I follow. It's a total perversion of UX to try to hijack our habits for the sake of engagement. For people with attention deficit that just visit these websites sporadically with specific goals, this trend is really disgusting.
> For people with attention deficit that just visit these websites sporadically with specific goals
An ad blocker can block a lot more than just ads. Mine removes anything that isn't goal-oriented, including most recommendation elements.
An ad blocker can block a lot more than just ads. Mine removes anything that isn't goal-oriented, including most recommendation elements.
> no matter how often I tell it to "see this less often"
It's in the wording, innit? It's "don't show me again" but "less often" which implies you'll be nagged again with irrelevant content up until you gave up because the queue never ends as algorithm never sleeps.
It's in the wording, innit? It's "don't show me again" but "less often" which implies you'll be nagged again with irrelevant content up until you gave up because the queue never ends as algorithm never sleeps.
Started using a third party client exactly for that reason (twidere)
At least currently, switching to “latest posts” sorting still removes most of the cruft.
This author is describing stuff they are only affected by -- niche whining. "I don't know about you but I'm on vibrate all the time" etc. The pause/unpause vs sound muting has been forever on videos/reels. I'd say this is in line with general OS changes that leave all volume controls to the OS and people are just getting more used to going there to control that (i.e. in Android 13 etc). It's hardly a dark pattern, especially if you're not constantly performing tasks with different audio levels. Many will have already set their audio levels and are ready to go.
And then with the Reels 'flipping' mode of browsing. Also been a core facet of the Reels-specific UI area for a long time now. It may not be the most fun for you but it's not new and many who hang out in that area will be comfortable with it.
Yes, Instagram's copying of annoying things from TikTok and general decline on quality of content experience etc is a common gripe, but that's it, it's a common gripe and part of an ongoing evolution that ppl have been commenting on for ages. Not new. There's a lot of manual finessing that can be done to help the balance of ads and curation you get in your IG experience and it just takes work, all is not lost to the algorithm. People seem lazy and at odds with IG's business goals but that doesn't mean the whole thing has gone out the window.
And then with the Reels 'flipping' mode of browsing. Also been a core facet of the Reels-specific UI area for a long time now. It may not be the most fun for you but it's not new and many who hang out in that area will be comfortable with it.
Yes, Instagram's copying of annoying things from TikTok and general decline on quality of content experience etc is a common gripe, but that's it, it's a common gripe and part of an ongoing evolution that ppl have been commenting on for ages. Not new. There's a lot of manual finessing that can be done to help the balance of ads and curation you get in your IG experience and it just takes work, all is not lost to the algorithm. People seem lazy and at odds with IG's business goals but that doesn't mean the whole thing has gone out the window.
[deleted]
IG has announced they're switching focus all to reels... Literally throwing the old focus out the window... Photographers are pissed.
I'm a photographer and was always pissed. You couldn't upload stuff from a desktop for the longest time, except for with a stupid UA string tweak.
It's not like Instagram suddenly sucks.
It's not like Instagram suddenly sucks.
To evade the dark pattern use a proxy like ProxiTok/Bibliogram and read them from your feed reader, customized as you prefer.
Haven't seen Bibliogram working at all in last 3 or 4 months. Every instance gives me blocked message - guess Instagram is actively fighting against these "proxies".
There's this federated photo sharing service pixelfed [1](of course runs on ActivityPub) but it doesn't seem to be gaining any traction, comparable to mastodon. Perhaps because it doesn't come with a mobile application.
[1] - https://github.com/pixelfed/pixelfed
There's this federated photo sharing service pixelfed [1](of course runs on ActivityPub) but it doesn't seem to be gaining any traction, comparable to mastodon. Perhaps because it doesn't come with a mobile application.
[1] - https://github.com/pixelfed/pixelfed
Weird that Bibliogram doesn't work for you, for me, the main instance never worked, but most of other instances do work (both directly and via PrivacyRedirect addon).
I have moved to a pattern of “install instagram, login in, add a post, and then uninstall”
i.e I’m only interested in adding content to it, for the purpose of broadcasting it to my friends. I can’t fight the algorithm, no matter how much I know about it, I know that I would be sucked right in.
Coincidentally today I removed Facebook's app from my phone (actually just disabled it since I'm not really allowed to remove it...) because I logged in to check out marketplace and somehow ended up losing a couple hours of my life to the infinite video feed (comprised mostly by Instagram videos).
The good thing about this scourge getting out of hand is that we might see regulatory action in the future.
The good thing about this scourge getting out of hand is that we might see regulatory action in the future.
You can actually delete the Facebook app from your phone with adb (Android Debug Bridge). Here's an example:
https://www.reddit.com/r/samsung/comments/ay39vh/first_thing...
https://www.reddit.com/r/samsung/comments/ay39vh/first_thing...
Similar for me, they recently? added the ability to upload from the desktop web browser so I only upload using this method now
I had just installed the web app version of Instagram with UBO enabled in Firefox. It was a radically changed experience, for the better. I had stopped using the native app some time before.
But it sounds like this is the end of that. So... Bye!
But it sounds like this is the end of that. So... Bye!
I did the same with Facebook, which I still use because my extended family uses it. It took some trickery to remove FB from a Samsung phone but it can be done. The web version of FB works fine and it is less able to dig out personal info from my phone. (Which is why FB and everybody else prefers that you use their app, but to hell with that.)
One more dark pattern: The explore screen, or however it‘s called, now always shows at least 3 videos. At least one of them completely. Half a year ago they would show only two.
In any case, now there will always be 3 things moving on this screen and that‘s why I can‘t use it anymore.
In any case, now there will always be 3 things moving on this screen and that‘s why I can‘t use it anymore.
Nothing in this article about how pictures work. Are they gone? Can I still see my friends pictures?
I still have the old UI.
You can still see your friend’s pictures but the feed is a mix of suggested content and people you follow with a heavily tilt towards reels. Instagram has essentially done a copy paste of TikTok’s business model.
The author complains about dark patterns but has a hugely annoying autoplaying, non-pausable gif in the middle of the article.
Putting items on screen instead of scroll is not a dark pattern, it's just UI that does not think like the 2010 web
[deleted]
Bummer. I loved the mute feature and had hopes TikTok would pick it up. But the reverse? Serious bummer.
I hated their previous implementation too. This whole "you've unmuted one thing once which means you've unmuted everything for the rest of your session" assumption is just plain stupid. All too often I unmute something, watch it, keep scrolling for a minute or two, and then another video comes up and startles me. That's not okay. But I guess their shitty metrics don't show that?
And then, let's be honest, video autoplay in any shape or form in the first place is also a clear dark pattern hoping to grab your attention. Some Instagram builds have a server-side setting to disable video autoplay, which I use (by enabling the debug menu where you get to override all those things manually). Some builds do not. Yes, I got annoyed by Instagram UX so much that I had to decompile it, patch the nastiest parts out, and put it back together.
And then, let's be honest, video autoplay in any shape or form in the first place is also a clear dark pattern hoping to grab your attention. Some Instagram builds have a server-side setting to disable video autoplay, which I use (by enabling the debug menu where you get to override all those things manually). Some builds do not. Yes, I got annoyed by Instagram UX so much that I had to decompile it, patch the nastiest parts out, and put it back together.
for instagram, i just gave up looking at the feed and just look at the posts that a group chat sends
At that point maybe try moving the group chat to a service not actively mining every word you type to feed adtech engines.
tomc1985(1)
Is the Tucker Carlson story few days back, about the tiktok algo promoting edu and wholesome content within China, but twerking and gender transition in the west true?
You mean the story by the guy that (successfully!) used this legal defense in court:
> The "'general tenor' of the show should then inform a viewer that [Carlson] is not 'stating actual facts' about the topics he discusses and is instead engaging in 'exaggeration' and 'non-literal commentary.'
and
> Fox persuasively argues, that given Mr. Carlson's reputation, any reasonable viewer 'arrive[s] with an appropriate amount of skepticism' about the statement he makes."
So if even the guys lawyers tell you any reasonable person would take him with a grain of salt, I would assume that everything he says is indeed exaggerated and non-literal as they phrase it. Or phrased differently: he will say what he thinks his audience wants to hear. What he says might be completely made up, have some important bits omitted or contain a kernel of truth with a truckload of fantasy.
From a European perspective this guy seems so over the top that I thought it was meant to be parody when I first saw a clip from him.
source: https://www.npr.org/2020/09/29/917747123/you-literally-cant-...
> The "'general tenor' of the show should then inform a viewer that [Carlson] is not 'stating actual facts' about the topics he discusses and is instead engaging in 'exaggeration' and 'non-literal commentary.'
and
> Fox persuasively argues, that given Mr. Carlson's reputation, any reasonable viewer 'arrive[s] with an appropriate amount of skepticism' about the statement he makes."
So if even the guys lawyers tell you any reasonable person would take him with a grain of salt, I would assume that everything he says is indeed exaggerated and non-literal as they phrase it. Or phrased differently: he will say what he thinks his audience wants to hear. What he says might be completely made up, have some important bits omitted or contain a kernel of truth with a truckload of fantasy.
From a European perspective this guy seems so over the top that I thought it was meant to be parody when I first saw a clip from him.
source: https://www.npr.org/2020/09/29/917747123/you-literally-cant-...
[deleted]
Certain types of content is banned on Douyin but the idea that tiktok promotes "edu and wholesome content within China" is a myth spread by Andrew Tate a couple months ago.
TikTok promotes the content that you respond to, no different than the recommendation algos we've gotten from our homegrown social media companies. Their biggest differentiator is that the signals they use are way better. If you see alot of gender transitioning content, then it says more about the content you watch.
That said, if you think critically, if Chinese users as a whole preferred educational and wholesome content on tiktok, that says more about Chinese society and what they value not that there is some boogeyman who holds a big level on whether to show you cats or twerking.
TikTok promotes the content that you respond to, no different than the recommendation algos we've gotten from our homegrown social media companies. Their biggest differentiator is that the signals they use are way better. If you see alot of gender transitioning content, then it says more about the content you watch.
That said, if you think critically, if Chinese users as a whole preferred educational and wholesome content on tiktok, that says more about Chinese society and what they value not that there is some boogeyman who holds a big level on whether to show you cats or twerking.
>>the tiktok algo promoting edu and wholesome content within China, but twerking and gender transition in the west true?
>Certain types of content is banned on Douyin but the idea that tiktok promotes "edu and wholesome content within China" is a myth spread
These two comments aren't really contradictory. Tiktok might technically not be "promoting edu and wholesome content" in china, but they might have banned the content that the parent poster thinks is repugnant (ie. "twerking and gender transition"). Indeed, depending on how much stuff is banned and what you consider as "wholesome", it's very possible that the chinese censors banned everything that you don't consider wholesome.
>Certain types of content is banned on Douyin but the idea that tiktok promotes "edu and wholesome content within China" is a myth spread
These two comments aren't really contradictory. Tiktok might technically not be "promoting edu and wholesome content" in china, but they might have banned the content that the parent poster thinks is repugnant (ie. "twerking and gender transition"). Indeed, depending on how much stuff is banned and what you consider as "wholesome", it's very possible that the chinese censors banned everything that you don't consider wholesome.
>These two comments aren't really contradictory.
No, I think the phrasing of the statement is misleading. It implies that TikTok (or some Chinese boogeyman) is the one making the decision to "poison" American Tiktok viewers. That isn't the case; the two cultures are different - China may ban choose to ban twerking videos on social media platforms but the US could not do something like that without infringing on free speech.
The people want twerking videos (TikTok did not invent "sex sells"), whether or not tiktok gives it to you is a function of the countries government, not some Chinese mastermind.
That said, I don't think the statement is globally true. I opened TikTok just now on "unpaired words"[1], I've never seen a video on transitioning and I get plenty of educationally curious content. This content does exist on US TikTok and is being promoted; you just have to be interested in watching it.
[1] https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRA7HJSv/?k=1
No, I think the phrasing of the statement is misleading. It implies that TikTok (or some Chinese boogeyman) is the one making the decision to "poison" American Tiktok viewers. That isn't the case; the two cultures are different - China may ban choose to ban twerking videos on social media platforms but the US could not do something like that without infringing on free speech.
The people want twerking videos (TikTok did not invent "sex sells"), whether or not tiktok gives it to you is a function of the countries government, not some Chinese mastermind.
That said, I don't think the statement is globally true. I opened TikTok just now on "unpaired words"[1], I've never seen a video on transitioning and I get plenty of educationally curious content. This content does exist on US TikTok and is being promoted; you just have to be interested in watching it.
[1] https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRA7HJSv/?k=1
> Is the Tucker Carlson story [...] true?
No
No
I dunno, I believe his ranting about M&Ms came from a real place. He sure seemed upset that their recent redesign left him less sexually satisfied.
Very good point. His stories about his personal sexual kinks, lightly disguised as news, are probably accurate. Disturbing, but accurate.
I get bird and cat videos; plus some Kronk and Dr. Doofenschmirtz.
It gives you more of what you watch and upvote. So the contents of your For You page are on you, after the first 5 or so videos.
It gives you more of what you watch and upvote. So the contents of your For You page are on you, after the first 5 or so videos.
You get bird videos a lot too?! Lol... I used to have a parrot and IG and TikTok think that's all I want to see now every day... It's really not smart... People aren't all one dimensional.
Their use cases/journeys need a lot of work.
Also, TikTok is not accounting for views properly (Mr Beast reported it on TikTok among many others), they redirect users away from certain accounts when links are shared on web sites, and they even stop certain videos from playing and shadow ban US users if their content talks negatively about the platform... Just like the country it comes from might do.
Their use cases/journeys need a lot of work.
Also, TikTok is not accounting for views properly (Mr Beast reported it on TikTok among many others), they redirect users away from certain accounts when links are shared on web sites, and they even stop certain videos from playing and shadow ban US users if their content talks negatively about the platform... Just like the country it comes from might do.
waiting for my Civilization: VII game to have 'boost twerking signal' when I reach modern age tech trees
https://www.news24.com/news24/xArchive/Archive/Porn-the-new-...
psychological warfare
psychological warfare
If we rephrase the question as "Does CCP suppress or ban LGBTQ content?" then I can easily see the answer being yes.
Yes because they do as they are told.
Instagram is a nest for influencers trying to scam their communities with random products and drops, a cancer, conditioning new generations to consumerism and beauty filters, it should be banned
It's the complete opposite on tiktok, you see almost exclusively entertainers and creative people
So it's no wonder they are trying to copy this, but copying the UI won't be enough if you keep the same userbase
The only one close enough to TikTok is youtube, but their Shorts UI/UX is one of the worst i ever seen
It's the complete opposite on tiktok, you see almost exclusively entertainers and creative people
So it's no wonder they are trying to copy this, but copying the UI won't be enough if you keep the same userbase
The only one close enough to TikTok is youtube, but their Shorts UI/UX is one of the worst i ever seen
There is nothing that TikTok is doing differently than Instagram that is a net positive for society. Replacing one digital crack cocaine product with other digital crack cocaine product but with stronger ingredients and someone else copying the worse parts of it is a race to the bottom.
There is no difference with these platforms other than one of them (TikTok) having an addictive Orwellian algorithm that dictates what is seen and unseen and can amplify a dangerous reality distortion field to create a deception of reality such that its users cannot tell what is real or not, even as serious as a war [0] all thanks to the algorithm.
So when you have something that is even worse than Facebook, Instagram, etc that is hardly 'The best thing to have happened to the Internet.' [1]
[0] https://www.nrk.no/osloogviken/xl/tiktok-doesn_t-show-the-wa...
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28135484
There is no difference with these platforms other than one of them (TikTok) having an addictive Orwellian algorithm that dictates what is seen and unseen and can amplify a dangerous reality distortion field to create a deception of reality such that its users cannot tell what is real or not, even as serious as a war [0] all thanks to the algorithm.
So when you have something that is even worse than Facebook, Instagram, etc that is hardly 'The best thing to have happened to the Internet.' [1]
[0] https://www.nrk.no/osloogviken/xl/tiktok-doesn_t-show-the-wa...
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28135484
My only marketable skill is software development and I pretty much hate what it has become. 16 years down the drain.