Choosing happiness(humbledollar.com)
humbledollar.com
Choosing happiness
https://humbledollar.com/2022/09/choosing-happiness/
104 comments
Maybe it's just because of the connotations we have behind the words, but I don't like the idea that a dinner with friends is somehow "hedonistic," but starting a business is somehow filling your life with meaning and purpose. Can't you find meaning and purpose solely in the pursuit of having good times in a good community? Plenty of happy people are happy just because they made lots of good friends and a healthy and happy family. Why should they need to find purpose in some arbitrary goal like running a marathon?
What you just described is actually the other type (eudaimonic) of happieness. You spent a lot of time and effort to cultivate those friendships and getting into that good community -- it isn't something that you just turn on one afternoon and it goes away the next day. Which is what makes this type of happiness so powerful -- it is like accumulating a lot of stock in a company that pays really good dividends on a regular basis. The dividends for the work (and time) cultivating those friendships and community connections are the punctuations of instances of hedonic happiness that are a direct result from it.
Just like learning to play an instrument -- it isn't just possession of a hard-earned skill that makes you happy, it is knowing that you can put that skill to use to make music that you enjoy listening to, and performing for others. That impromptu guitar or piano performance at a random cocktail party may be hedonistic, however it is only made possible by the longer term commitment to the craft.
Oh, and it doesn't really need to be hard work. A lot of musicians are in it purely for the joy of the craft. Personally, I get a lot of joy getting better at creating things, whether it is writing computer code or crafting furniture projects using my woodworking tools. And although it takes a time commitment, it is something that I just sit down and do for fun.
Just like learning to play an instrument -- it isn't just possession of a hard-earned skill that makes you happy, it is knowing that you can put that skill to use to make music that you enjoy listening to, and performing for others. That impromptu guitar or piano performance at a random cocktail party may be hedonistic, however it is only made possible by the longer term commitment to the craft.
Oh, and it doesn't really need to be hard work. A lot of musicians are in it purely for the joy of the craft. Personally, I get a lot of joy getting better at creating things, whether it is writing computer code or crafting furniture projects using my woodworking tools. And although it takes a time commitment, it is something that I just sit down and do for fun.
And possessions can work this way too. Our house is chock full of stuff, but it's stuff that we have acquired during extensive travel around the world. Every tchotchke reminds us of some place we've been and the experiences we had there. The stuff is meaningless to everyone else but full of meaning for us.
Case in point: I have a cheap stuffed animal in the shape of a lobster. Out of context it's a piece of junk. But when you know that I bought it to commemorate the very first ad ever placed on Adwords (I was the lead engineer on that project back in 2000) -- a company called Lively Lobsters -- it takes on deep significance.
Case in point: I have a cheap stuffed animal in the shape of a lobster. Out of context it's a piece of junk. But when you know that I bought it to commemorate the very first ad ever placed on Adwords (I was the lead engineer on that project back in 2000) -- a company called Lively Lobsters -- it takes on deep significance.
tdehnel(2)
Eudaimonic and hedonistic happiness both seem wrong to me, as you can't desire happiness - well you can, but then you won't find it, as you can only stumble upon it.
Like in Harry Potter and the Philosopher Stone, when Harry is forced to stand before the Mirror of Erised, the mirror recognises Harry's lack of greed for the stone and deposits it into his pocket.
Life is like the Mirror of Erised: if you have a lack of greed for happiness, life will bestow you with happiness - which is what makes it so hard to get!
Like in Harry Potter and the Philosopher Stone, when Harry is forced to stand before the Mirror of Erised, the mirror recognises Harry's lack of greed for the stone and deposits it into his pocket.
Life is like the Mirror of Erised: if you have a lack of greed for happiness, life will bestow you with happiness - which is what makes it so hard to get!
I don't really agree. I think you can know what ingredients are more likely to make you happy, and you can direct your life towards them.
With your outlook what does one do? Just sit there and wait for happiness to appear?
With your outlook what does one do? Just sit there and wait for happiness to appear?
> I think you can know what ingredients are more likely to make you happy,
How do you know you know for sure? Are you positive you know everything that can make you happy?
It's a knowledge/discovery problem.
> With your outlook what does one do? Just sit there and wait for happiness to appear?
No, we can use your approximation indeed, but after the facts (ex-post) instead of before (ex-ante): you need take sample of the multidimensional space then try to do gradient descent.
The sampling part has to be random - so you randomly try things. Some of things will make you happier, and sometimes much more than they should, so you tweak one parameter, try again and see if you are less happy or more happy.
That's just using algorithms on actual life.
How do you know you know for sure? Are you positive you know everything that can make you happy?
It's a knowledge/discovery problem.
> With your outlook what does one do? Just sit there and wait for happiness to appear?
No, we can use your approximation indeed, but after the facts (ex-post) instead of before (ex-ante): you need take sample of the multidimensional space then try to do gradient descent.
The sampling part has to be random - so you randomly try things. Some of things will make you happier, and sometimes much more than they should, so you tweak one parameter, try again and see if you are less happy or more happy.
That's just using algorithms on actual life.
Pretty disruptive to try out big changes on a whim though such as different jobs or living location, and those kinds of changes are the ones I would think are most likely to have a large effect on happiness level.
First, you are assuming the size of the change to be proprotional to the change in hapinness level - that's a questionable first assumption! Maybe it's the opposite?
Or maybe it's uncorrelated? By default, to play it safe, keep the randomness and don't preselect for a big change!
A random change would be of any size: say, randomly try a different food today?
Then go to a aerobic class instead of a boxing class (or vice versa)
Or try swaps: if you often to go vacation on the same place you enjoy, have you tried swapping it to your main residence and work remotely?
That should be less disruptive, through all change is disruptive!
Or maybe it's uncorrelated? By default, to play it safe, keep the randomness and don't preselect for a big change!
A random change would be of any size: say, randomly try a different food today?
Then go to a aerobic class instead of a boxing class (or vice versa)
Or try swaps: if you often to go vacation on the same place you enjoy, have you tried swapping it to your main residence and work remotely?
That should be less disruptive, through all change is disruptive!
> Happiness from friendships and community it is like accumulating a lot of stock in a company that pays really good dividends on a regular basis.
What a bleak way to view things. A very neoliberal zeitgeist indeed.
What a bleak way to view things. A very neoliberal zeitgeist indeed.
The intention wasn't to compare wealth with happiness, but was to draw a comparison between two different domains, with one that some people can objectively understand. The idea being that in finance, you can for example buy an object (collectable, gold, virtual currency, ...) and it just sits there collecting dust. It may go up in value, but to realize that value you have to sell it, then you don't have it anymore. Whereas investing in something that generates value (dividend paying stock, education, tools for your business, ...) gives you returns without having to sell it. Although in most cases you still have to put in work (you have to work at education, and work to utilize it, and you have to apply work to your tools to generate value).
Same is true for other non-financial areas -- it takes work to make the connections and maintain friendships, and there is effort that continuously goes into the processes that give you rewards for those friendships (you can't just be one-sided, take but not give, and there is not magic formula, you just muddle through it the best you can).
Same is true for other non-financial areas -- it takes work to make the connections and maintain friendships, and there is effort that continuously goes into the processes that give you rewards for those friendships (you can't just be one-sided, take but not give, and there is not magic formula, you just muddle through it the best you can).
I think I had the same reaction.
How useful is the word "happiness" here? "Pleasure" seems a better term for the author's first sort of happiness. So, sure, pleasure is important in life but cannot be the only thing. The second sort, is that happiness at all? Striving towards a sense of accomplishment or satisfaction.
The problem in this world we've made is not that people choose to spend a fun time with friends rather than run a marathon. It's pleasures that are hardly even pleasures. It's getting angry on the internet, or gambling, or taking this or that substance because it's easier than living.
How useful is the word "happiness" here? "Pleasure" seems a better term for the author's first sort of happiness. So, sure, pleasure is important in life but cannot be the only thing. The second sort, is that happiness at all? Striving towards a sense of accomplishment or satisfaction.
The problem in this world we've made is not that people choose to spend a fun time with friends rather than run a marathon. It's pleasures that are hardly even pleasures. It's getting angry on the internet, or gambling, or taking this or that substance because it's easier than living.
Yes, he's using the wrong word with "happiness". "Good life", "best life" are better conceptions for what he's trying to get to.
I like your point that it's pleasures are hardly pleasures. Why do you think this is?
For me the explanation is that this is not a world that I have had much input in making, nor is it unfolding naturally. Instead I think it is planned by powerful forces and steered in a way that uses our (good) nature against to achieve greater control. Eg, technology is a neutral 'tool' but it is being used to track everyone and everything. Events such as epidemics, result in greater centralised control, less individual freedom.
The direction is towards greater authoritarianism. Everyone will struggle for happiness/the best life under those conditions. (Except those running the system.)
I like your point that it's pleasures are hardly pleasures. Why do you think this is?
For me the explanation is that this is not a world that I have had much input in making, nor is it unfolding naturally. Instead I think it is planned by powerful forces and steered in a way that uses our (good) nature against to achieve greater control. Eg, technology is a neutral 'tool' but it is being used to track everyone and everything. Events such as epidemics, result in greater centralised control, less individual freedom.
The direction is towards greater authoritarianism. Everyone will struggle for happiness/the best life under those conditions. (Except those running the system.)
>The problem in this world we've made is not that people choose to spend a fun time with friends rather than run a marathon. It's pleasures that are hardly even pleasures. It's getting angry on the internet, or gambling, or taking this or that substance because it's easier than living.
My (and I suspect many others') personal issue is that I'm forced to spend so much of my energy working that at the end of the day/week I only have enough left to veg out with wasted time like reddit or whatever.
The things that truly make me happy take more energy, which I can't summon when forced to deal with life's necessities for >10h/day.
My (and I suspect many others') personal issue is that I'm forced to spend so much of my energy working that at the end of the day/week I only have enough left to veg out with wasted time like reddit or whatever.
The things that truly make me happy take more energy, which I can't summon when forced to deal with life's necessities for >10h/day.
To that point, I have a life mainly oriented around the article’s investment kind of happiness, and I can’t imagine a life where I enjoy that without also having the article’s fleeting kind of happiness. And I’d even say I’ve damaged my ability to pursue or enjoy either by overly focusing on the former.
Dinners with friends, walks in nature, time spent with family, is what I live for.
some of the examples seem misplaced but the overall abstract idea sounds right. maybe think of the dinner example as a lavish party with people who want to show off more than being there with you instead of a quieter dinner with only your close friends and not many other people.
and i agree with you, building community to me is one of the highest goals for long-term happiness. ultimately for me the purpose of life is to contribute to our ever-advancing civilization, and happiness comes from doing that together with others and enjoying the friendships that result from that work.
and i agree with you, building community to me is one of the highest goals for long-term happiness. ultimately for me the purpose of life is to contribute to our ever-advancing civilization, and happiness comes from doing that together with others and enjoying the friendships that result from that work.
I think that's fair, and the author choose a bad example (doing cocaine might have been better, or watching Netflix). But I think the difference between the other examples is they involve some sort of a mission. It's difficult (imo) for humans to find fulfillment just in "having a good time" unfortunately.
>Can't you find meaning and purpose solely in the pursuit of having good times in a good community?
It's definitely possible to find purpose and meaning in good times, but without a good community? That's a work of fiction promoted by modern secular society.
It's definitely possible to find purpose and meaning in good times, but without a good community? That's a work of fiction promoted by modern secular society.
Many communities are toxic as fuck, and for many people every community anywhere near them is dangerous.
You're insane to think that community is necessary to find purpose/meaning in life. Plenty of us have had to escape and avoid all communities in order to survive, and we are doing extremely well. Fuck your "fiction promoted by modern society", the life that works for you does not prove that everyone else should live the same way.
You're insane to think that community is necessary to find purpose/meaning in life. Plenty of us have had to escape and avoid all communities in order to survive, and we are doing extremely well. Fuck your "fiction promoted by modern society", the life that works for you does not prove that everyone else should live the same way.
Yikes, can you please not post comments like this or https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32436006? They break the site guidelines badly, and we have to ban accounts that do that.
If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
Yes, I understand, I will be more respectful, and I apologize.
I'm an incorrigible angry mess right now because I'm dealing with close impending death (edit: not my own, but very close) in RL and it's bleeding over into every sphere and making me behave terribly, but it's not a valid reason to be a dick. I'll dial it back heavily and do my best to either act like a normal person or be quiet.
I'm an incorrigible angry mess right now because I'm dealing with close impending death (edit: not my own, but very close) in RL and it's bleeding over into every sphere and making me behave terribly, but it's not a valid reason to be a dick. I'll dial it back heavily and do my best to either act like a normal person or be quiet.
Please make your points on HN without being so abusive. Thanks. Your comment breaks many of the HN guidelines, e.g.
"Be kind. Don't be snarky. ...Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. ...When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
"Be kind. Don't be snarky. ...Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. ...When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
i am sorry you had that experience and that you chose to be by yourself instead. i can get where you are coming from. i left my home country for similar reasons. but i never gave up on community. along the way i met wonderful people and i realized that i can find a community by contributing to one.
community is not a fiction promoted by modern society. quite the contrary. community was always quite important throughout history. in fact the idea that we don't need community is a modern fiction. sure, some individuals may feel comfortable to live as hermits, and maybe you are one of them, but then you'd certainly be a rare exception, because most people can't go through life without having friends and a welcoming community around them.
community is not a fiction promoted by modern society. quite the contrary. community was always quite important throughout history. in fact the idea that we don't need community is a modern fiction. sure, some individuals may feel comfortable to live as hermits, and maybe you are one of them, but then you'd certainly be a rare exception, because most people can't go through life without having friends and a welcoming community around them.
Yet here you are. :)
Because it's not arbitrary, that's the point.
Also, having 'a good job and good family' would likely also be a form of 'eudaimonic' happiness.
'Hedonic' happiness is more like being in a 'joyful state of being'.
Also, having 'a good job and good family' would likely also be a form of 'eudaimonic' happiness.
'Hedonic' happiness is more like being in a 'joyful state of being'.
These are both "activity" based definitions of happiness, which kind of misses the point.
Talk to people on their deathbeds and you'll notice that they talk more about relationships than activities.
The older I get, the more I understand what they were saying.
Talk to people on their deathbeds and you'll notice that they talk more about relationships than activities.
The older I get, the more I understand what they were saying.
I don't disagree with your point, but for the longest time I took deathbed wisdom as some ultimate truth.
However, one time it occured to me that maybe a dying person's regrets are not the way you should live your life. They didn't get infinite wisdom just because they're dying, and also the point of life is not that to be happy about your life and choices in your last couple of hours/days.
I'm not saying you should dismiss everything they say, but to take it for what it is: the thoughts of a mind heavily influenced by dying.
However, one time it occured to me that maybe a dying person's regrets are not the way you should live your life. They didn't get infinite wisdom just because they're dying, and also the point of life is not that to be happy about your life and choices in your last couple of hours/days.
I'm not saying you should dismiss everything they say, but to take it for what it is: the thoughts of a mind heavily influenced by dying.
I've found that the dying tend to focus on the last decade or so of their life with newfound clarity now that the daily material worries are trivial by comparison, and spend a fair bit of time thinking about how empty or full their life was depending on how they lived. The regrets inevitably revolve around relationships, distantly followed by accomplishments.
Its not about being satisfied or not with your choices on your deathbed, so much as realizing on your deathbed that you've been miserable due to how you've lived, and have been too preoccupied or angry or fearful to pay any heed and make changes while you still had the chance.
The first bout one has with this is when someone you know well dies, and you find yourself thinking about what could have been said or done but cannot now. That's probably also why the realization generally doesn't happen until later in life...
Its not about being satisfied or not with your choices on your deathbed, so much as realizing on your deathbed that you've been miserable due to how you've lived, and have been too preoccupied or angry or fearful to pay any heed and make changes while you still had the chance.
The first bout one has with this is when someone you know well dies, and you find yourself thinking about what could have been said or done but cannot now. That's probably also why the realization generally doesn't happen until later in life...
Related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak%E2%80%93end_rule
"The peak–end rule is a psychological heuristic in which people judge an experience largely based on how they felt at its peak (i.e., its most intense point) and at its end, rather than based on the total sum or average of every moment of the experience."
"The peak–end rule is a psychological heuristic in which people judge an experience largely based on how they felt at its peak (i.e., its most intense point) and at its end, rather than based on the total sum or average of every moment of the experience."
This reminds me of the Alan Watts stuff about life being like music - ie not all about some important crescendo at the end, but the stuff happening in the middle.
That's really it.
30 years ago, I would have been quite puzzled by your explanation. Today, it seems so natural.
30 years ago, I would have been quite puzzled by your explanation. Today, it seems so natural.
Coming from UX and game design, so many app designers try to "gamify" things like running, lifting, and cleaning.
Adding gamification adds a short-lived hedonic happiness hit that doesn't last very long. Sometimes we'll see articles about "making apps delightful" by adding a shiny button to an app that looks great when you hit "task complete". By the 100th time you click that button, that hit will have worn off.
Gamification works as a crutch at best. Instead, designers should really aim for the "eudaimonic" side of the task. E.g. your room is now clean. Or a workout app could help users better keep track of their strength / ability to lift heavier / better form over time, and reflect on their improvements. These will make users feel a lot more gratification.
Adding gamification adds a short-lived hedonic happiness hit that doesn't last very long. Sometimes we'll see articles about "making apps delightful" by adding a shiny button to an app that looks great when you hit "task complete". By the 100th time you click that button, that hit will have worn off.
Gamification works as a crutch at best. Instead, designers should really aim for the "eudaimonic" side of the task. E.g. your room is now clean. Or a workout app could help users better keep track of their strength / ability to lift heavier / better form over time, and reflect on their improvements. These will make users feel a lot more gratification.
Sometimes it takes time to cultivate intrinsic motivation. Gamification can get you over that hump.
I've moved on from gamification and thoroughly removed all such interventions from everything. I found the extrinsic nature of the mechanisms wasn't helping and were creating a distraction in and of themselves.
Metrics are generally overrated in my view. The ones that matter really matter but the rest are just noise that slows and obfuscates.
Metrics are generally overrated in my view. The ones that matter really matter but the rest are just noise that slows and obfuscates.
What metrics matter?
the initial hit of delight can help folks work through the parts of the app that are deficient.
give value as soon as possible.
give value as soon as possible.
I’m sorry, but this is horseshit.
I have spent my entire life to date trying to be useful to people, to society, and it definitely doesn’t result in happiness - rather, an ever-growing resentment at the fact that I am a disposable tool that others are happy to extract value from, but will immediately discard the moment that the tool needs maintenance. At this point, I am rusted and broken and am no damned use to anyone - and oh boy do people make sure to let me know that I am useless garbage.
Happiness is a marketing tool, nothing more - a dragon to chase to sell you products and services, and in this case, to sell yourself into bonded servitude.
Our society is sick. Productivity is not the sole value axis of a human being, but we almost unanimously act as though it is.
I have spent my entire life to date trying to be useful to people, to society, and it definitely doesn’t result in happiness - rather, an ever-growing resentment at the fact that I am a disposable tool that others are happy to extract value from, but will immediately discard the moment that the tool needs maintenance. At this point, I am rusted and broken and am no damned use to anyone - and oh boy do people make sure to let me know that I am useless garbage.
Happiness is a marketing tool, nothing more - a dragon to chase to sell you products and services, and in this case, to sell yourself into bonded servitude.
Our society is sick. Productivity is not the sole value axis of a human being, but we almost unanimously act as though it is.
> At this point, I am rusted and broken and am no damned use to anyone - and oh boy do people make sure to let me know that I am useless garbage.
I've been following your posts for a while (could make for an interesting blog BTW) - aren't you now in Portugal and out of the job/work world?
I've been following your posts for a while (could make for an interesting blog BTW) - aren't you now in Portugal and out of the job/work world?
Yes, but the scars run deep, and these values are not exclusive to work and employment - virtually every interpersonal relationship, in my experience, turns out to be fundamentally mercenary. I befriend people, or so I think, and I become infinite unpaid tech support. When I put my foot down and tell them to read the damned manual, upset and offence occurs.
I did still do some consulting on the side, until last week, when I politely requested that my few clients pay me a fair market rate, as I had been operating on five year old rates that were cheap even at the time — unsurprisingly, they are no longer my clients. I had worked with them out of a sense of loyalty due to the longevity of the relationships - which evidently was not mutual.
Right this moment, I am away from home on vacation for the first time since the pandemic struck, and rather than being able to relax, I am spending several hours a day dealing with/fending off requests for free technical support from said ex-clients, friends, and family.
It does not give me a warm, glowing feeling to be able to solve the problems of others, ad infinitum, and any seemingly meaningful engagement with society inevitably turns into exploitation. There’s never any gratitude - and to be clear, I don’t expect grovelling worshipfulness, just a “thank you for taking the time” - just ratcheting expectations.
I had dreams of being able to take the time to write - and write I do, but I find no meaning in it, as nothing I write has an audience beyond myself.
The only place I find meaning is in sitting quietly in the forest, and just being a human animal amidst non-human animals. I wouldn’t call it happiness, rather… contentment? Groundedness? An absence, or at least diminshment, of despair and fury?
Honestly, I wouldn’t follow me - I am a bitter weirdo who has recused himself from the world, for good reason. I am never quite sure if it is the human world that is broken, or me - or both.
I did still do some consulting on the side, until last week, when I politely requested that my few clients pay me a fair market rate, as I had been operating on five year old rates that were cheap even at the time — unsurprisingly, they are no longer my clients. I had worked with them out of a sense of loyalty due to the longevity of the relationships - which evidently was not mutual.
Right this moment, I am away from home on vacation for the first time since the pandemic struck, and rather than being able to relax, I am spending several hours a day dealing with/fending off requests for free technical support from said ex-clients, friends, and family.
It does not give me a warm, glowing feeling to be able to solve the problems of others, ad infinitum, and any seemingly meaningful engagement with society inevitably turns into exploitation. There’s never any gratitude - and to be clear, I don’t expect grovelling worshipfulness, just a “thank you for taking the time” - just ratcheting expectations.
I had dreams of being able to take the time to write - and write I do, but I find no meaning in it, as nothing I write has an audience beyond myself.
The only place I find meaning is in sitting quietly in the forest, and just being a human animal amidst non-human animals. I wouldn’t call it happiness, rather… contentment? Groundedness? An absence, or at least diminshment, of despair and fury?
Honestly, I wouldn’t follow me - I am a bitter weirdo who has recused himself from the world, for good reason. I am never quite sure if it is the human world that is broken, or me - or both.
(Not that I have much of an advice to give, and only answering because you're in Portugal - my native country. but nothing to do with that as well.. :).
Sometimes we just have to "reinvent" ourselves. Do some introspection, drop those things that are clearly not working, search for other paths. I think we are all broken and trying to find our way in this world.
Sometimes we just have to "reinvent" ourselves. Do some introspection, drop those things that are clearly not working, search for other paths. I think we are all broken and trying to find our way in this world.
> Yes, but the scars run deep, and these values are not exclusive to work and employment - virtually every interpersonal relationship, in my experience, turns out to be fundamentally mercenary. I befriend people, or so I think, and I become infinite unpaid tech support. When I put my foot down and tell them to read the damned manual, upset and offence occurs.
Possibly most are like that, but there are definitely people who care about the interaction with you in itself, and not in what they can gain. They're rare, because they have to essentially elevate themselves above the default programming of being a predominantly a selfish animal who's about maximizing resources and chances at survival/comfort. Essentially, a good approach for this problem is - look for people who exhibit good/virtuous character traits, and run from everyone else.
Possibly most are like that, but there are definitely people who care about the interaction with you in itself, and not in what they can gain. They're rare, because they have to essentially elevate themselves above the default programming of being a predominantly a selfish animal who's about maximizing resources and chances at survival/comfort. Essentially, a good approach for this problem is - look for people who exhibit good/virtuous character traits, and run from everyone else.
> I am spending several hours a day dealing with/fending off requests for free technical support from said ex-clients, friends, and family
What continues to obligate you to interact at all? I've dropped off the map to one friend and one family member before (after years of effort to prove to myself that I'm a good person) and seriously dialed back my stress level. It wasn't easy, and one was sick and in need but ultimately un-help-able.
What continues to obligate you to interact at all? I've dropped off the map to one friend and one family member before (after years of effort to prove to myself that I'm a good person) and seriously dialed back my stress level. It wasn't easy, and one was sick and in need but ultimately un-help-able.
It sounds a bit like your line between friend and coworker/business relationship is very thin. I'm probably on the other side of the pendulum but I dont consider any work friends or clients to be my actual friends. They are people who I do business with and some are more pleasant than others. Some are even close to actual friends. But I have known since my first job that often these friendships are tied to a job and/or the mutual benefit we both get from each other.
When that job and mutual benefit is gone then we have very little incentive to keep being friends. My family occasionally asks me for tech support and I've talked to a friend once in a while about a website they are setting up but as soon as it feel like we are moving from me helping them with a quick fix into me doing work for them then I tell them they should find someone who can actually do this work for them because I cant.
tldr: business relationships !== friends
When that job and mutual benefit is gone then we have very little incentive to keep being friends. My family occasionally asks me for tech support and I've talked to a friend once in a while about a website they are setting up but as soon as it feel like we are moving from me helping them with a quick fix into me doing work for them then I tell them they should find someone who can actually do this work for them because I cant.
tldr: business relationships !== friends
I think I've found Flow to be possibly negative. Its like drug, after you do it a few times you end up chasing it. Doesn't really makes you happy, productive maybe but grumpy and annoyed to be interrupted. Turns you into a loner.
I don't find this to be true in my own life. I get into a lot of flow moments with my passions and it's become just a thing I settle into like sleep. I also don't mind being interrupted sometimes because I set aside enough time to be in the flow. I think the key is, let it happen but don't become attached to it and let it go when you can't have it.
Are there other articles on this? I sometimes crave flow at the expense of other life obligations and struggle with balance here.
"There’s the well-known notion that we tend to get greater happiness from experiences rather than possessions."
This seems like an oversimplification
> Their research found that people who were less financially advantaged (partially measured by income, occupation and education) reported just as much, if not more, happiness from spending on material objects over experiences.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/24/spending-money-on-objects-ma...
This seems like an oversimplification
> Their research found that people who were less financially advantaged (partially measured by income, occupation and education) reported just as much, if not more, happiness from spending on material objects over experiences.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/24/spending-money-on-objects-ma...
There’s a baseline of material that can be quite high before you get diminishing returns. Moving to a nicer neighborhood or a bigger place instead of having a 3 person household in a studio apartment where you get stabbed on your way in etc. Eating healthy and well made food instead of cheap hot dogs and macaroni every night.. being able to get a level of medical care that puts your mind at ease and prevents long term issues. Having the financial freedom to take extended time off your work and go somewhere enjoyable.
These all have very real effects on your stress, well-being and happiness in the short and long term.
These all have very real effects on your stress, well-being and happiness in the short and long term.
For one, we experience our possessions, to varying degrees. Or they have a use specific to experience.
In fact, people grossly underestimate the stuff (or waste) required for what they liken to experiences. You usually can't divorce one from the other, unless your experience costs nothing (i.e. go outside and walk).
In fact, people grossly underestimate the stuff (or waste) required for what they liken to experiences. You usually can't divorce one from the other, unless your experience costs nothing (i.e. go outside and walk).
Hedonic and eudaimonic happiness are two ends of a very long continuum.
It's a question of temporal range--do you reward your near-future self at the cost of a far futue-self (e.g. by drinking) or do you reward your far-future self at the cost of your near-future self (e.g. by studying or working).
It's not always (or even often) a zero-sum trade, but there's still a balance that needs to be struck.
It's a question of temporal range--do you reward your near-future self at the cost of a far futue-self (e.g. by drinking) or do you reward your far-future self at the cost of your near-future self (e.g. by studying or working).
It's not always (or even often) a zero-sum trade, but there's still a balance that needs to be struck.
Except that eudaimonic happiness is not guaranteed to produce tangible rewards, it's the act of striving itself that matters.
Hedonic happiness doesn't have to penalize one's future self, either. I can have a good time without alcohol. The distrinction is whether or how much something is enjoyable while it's being done vs in retrospect.
Hard disagree, they are of distinctly different kind; I have experienced contentment of similar or even greater magnitude than some episodes of hedonic pleasure.
“Happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue, and it only does so as the unintended side-effect of one's personal dedication to a cause greater than oneself or as the by-product of one's surrender to a person other than oneself. Happiness must happen: you have to let it happen by not caring about it.”- Viktor Frankl
This is a corollary of a verse from an Indian epic which loosely translates to “one should be duty bound without expecting any benefits”
Happiness is having good health and enough money to be able to buy 90% of your time to do whatever you want to do. IMO, people who say that money doesn't make you happy simply lack imagination.
The while point of the såning "money doesn't but happiness" is that you shouldn't work away everything you enjoy. It's a saying of the working class, a saying for us who trade time for money. It's supposed to remind you that such a trade only goes one way, and that you can never trade the money you got for spending your time doing bullshit back into quality time.
It does not mean that money makes you sad, or that the rich aren't better off.
It does not mean that money makes you sad, or that the rich aren't better off.
The amount of money maters. Too much money can fuck up your head. At a certain point it impacts your relationships with others which in turn impacts your life significantly.
Then something must be wrong with me.
Also eudaimonic happiness is the only thing you have control over. You can't always be rich, healthy, in a great relationship, with a job you love, children who are loving and successful etc. But you can always strive to fulfill your duties, improve yourself and live an honorable life
Experiencing flow while learning skills and working on something meaningful is happiness.
"It’s amazing how much contentment and sheer satisfaction is found in finding something you are interested in learning and seeing yourself grow as your mind and skills expand while progressing through ever more complex levels. It’s like a video game, but better! Actively learning something stops time, or at least you won’t notice the passage of time because you’re so gratifyingly engaged in something. This is the state of “flow,” or the feeling of energized focus and enjoyment while engaged in an activity that is discussed in the 2011 documentary, Happy."
From: https://moviewise.substack.com/p/going-through-an-existentia...
"It’s amazing how much contentment and sheer satisfaction is found in finding something you are interested in learning and seeing yourself grow as your mind and skills expand while progressing through ever more complex levels. It’s like a video game, but better! Actively learning something stops time, or at least you won’t notice the passage of time because you’re so gratifyingly engaged in something. This is the state of “flow,” or the feeling of energized focus and enjoyment while engaged in an activity that is discussed in the 2011 documentary, Happy."
From: https://moviewise.substack.com/p/going-through-an-existentia...
I do not see any necessity to be either/or. The relative "amounts" should be in some balance, but its impossible to equalise, in any meaningful sense. One is a fleeting experience, the other has sustained value at a lower intensity. They are probably different emotional effects on your wellbeing, and have different outcomes.
experience things, and take joy in simple experiences, and do acts which add value, and avoid harms to others.
I can have hedonic happiness eating well cooked rice, and eudaimonic sharing it with friends. MFK Fisher writes how in old age, a simple dish of green peas can be more satisfying than a rich Escoffier sauced dish. thats zen class hedonic.
experience things, and take joy in simple experiences, and do acts which add value, and avoid harms to others.
I can have hedonic happiness eating well cooked rice, and eudaimonic sharing it with friends. MFK Fisher writes how in old age, a simple dish of green peas can be more satisfying than a rich Escoffier sauced dish. thats zen class hedonic.
Sounds like you are in complete agreement with the article.
yes. I wanted to avoid doing what another thread pointed out was needless argumentative oppositional voice on HN. Maybe I should have said "I agree"
fundamentally, I think this is a false dichotomy. I don't think the author proposed a strawman to knock down, but I do think its an instance of a faulty model: the implicit either/or in "two kinds of.." don't apply.
fundamentally, I think this is a false dichotomy. I don't think the author proposed a strawman to knock down, but I do think its an instance of a faulty model: the implicit either/or in "two kinds of.." don't apply.
I'm going to go with the happiness I can remember how to spell.
True satisfaction comes from massive sacrifice and personal investment. I enjoy getting drinks with friends and having good conversation, but what I'm truly satisfied with - I can die tomorrow without regrets - are my children, my marriage, building a business, completing my education, becoming proficient in new skills, buying property... things like this. You should be able to live in the moment, but if the moment is all you have and all you've done, life is without purpose.
Agreed 100%.
"Mankind does not strive for happiness; only the Englishman does” - Nietzsche
I think people confuse happiness and “happy events” too often and try to demonize hedonism by tying it to “capitalist treadmills” and wage slavery.
Look, “Happy events” like buying some cool new thing, or going to a fancy party, or the birth of a child are of course temporary feelings of happiness. Yes that should be obvious, the point is to keep steady streams of these sort of happy events in your life.
“Happiness” is a state, not tied to a particular event, it is a feeling. You get there by finally building structure into your life that easily allows for the creation of “happy events” with little effort.
It is analogous to eating a good meal and being well fed. No one expects a few good meals to suddenly make them well fed, you must constantly eat meals to reach a state where you can be considered well fed and you must keep eating beyond that to maintain the status of being well fed. Happiness is something like that.
A state of happiness without the occurrence of new happy events eventually deteriorates, unless you can lower the bar for happy events so low that merely being alive makes you happy. But it is very difficult and I don’t recommend it, because overstimulation of happiness makes it difficult to determine if you are actually happy. You must occasionally be unhappy to know this. Some people that are happy just because they are alive might not really be happy at all. A dystopian thought.
Look, “Happy events” like buying some cool new thing, or going to a fancy party, or the birth of a child are of course temporary feelings of happiness. Yes that should be obvious, the point is to keep steady streams of these sort of happy events in your life.
“Happiness” is a state, not tied to a particular event, it is a feeling. You get there by finally building structure into your life that easily allows for the creation of “happy events” with little effort.
It is analogous to eating a good meal and being well fed. No one expects a few good meals to suddenly make them well fed, you must constantly eat meals to reach a state where you can be considered well fed and you must keep eating beyond that to maintain the status of being well fed. Happiness is something like that.
A state of happiness without the occurrence of new happy events eventually deteriorates, unless you can lower the bar for happy events so low that merely being alive makes you happy. But it is very difficult and I don’t recommend it, because overstimulation of happiness makes it difficult to determine if you are actually happy. You must occasionally be unhappy to know this. Some people that are happy just because they are alive might not really be happy at all. A dystopian thought.
It's a fascinating topic, especially as you become older. The saying that the only thing more tragic than not getting what you want is finally getting it seems true based on experience. It kind of suggests an ascetic lifestyle, or at the very least, having a well developed sense of "enough".
Schopenhauer had a lot to say on this subject. His conclusion was that you could escape these hedonic forces/desires by engaging in art, philosophy, etc. Similar to what TFA is suggesting.
Schopenhauer had a lot to say on this subject. His conclusion was that you could escape these hedonic forces/desires by engaging in art, philosophy, etc. Similar to what TFA is suggesting.
The way Joe Rogan framed happiness [0] resonates with me more than this article.
It is like hunger. You feel the emotion of unhappiness or a more specific emotion, and then take action to try and remedy the feeling (or ignore the emotion).
[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgVu9G-VcQk
It is like hunger. You feel the emotion of unhappiness or a more specific emotion, and then take action to try and remedy the feeling (or ignore the emotion).
[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgVu9G-VcQk
I'm not sure that whatever happiness you get from "flow" is all that similar to the other kinds? Many addictive video games are good at stimulating this, but when you're done playing, what do you have?
So I doubt anyone knows how many kinds of happiness there are. It's unlikely that there are two.
So I doubt anyone knows how many kinds of happiness there are. It's unlikely that there are two.
“Flow” is not the typical addictive video game, with a dopamine reward cycle. It’s when you do something hard, satisfying, and you are good enough to relax into doing that hard thing. Aptly-named “flowy” mountain bike trails are a great example.
It’s not sustainable over many hours because it is hard, and you have to come up for air. But you feel whole, well, satisfied, in doing it.
It’s not sustainable over many hours because it is hard, and you have to come up for air. But you feel whole, well, satisfied, in doing it.
It feels a little self congratulatory for flow to only be for people who only do hard things, though it might support the feeling of satisfaction.
First the definition of hard is already difficult to define across people and activities. From a happiness standpoint, I don't see why a simple or easy focus couldn't also induce a state of flow if they were in the moment and enjoyed it.
In a way, being entranced in a TV show is a state of flow. Society just has shame built into the idea of wasting time due to the scarcity of our environment.
First the definition of hard is already difficult to define across people and activities. From a happiness standpoint, I don't see why a simple or easy focus couldn't also induce a state of flow if they were in the moment and enjoyed it.
In a way, being entranced in a TV show is a state of flow. Society just has shame built into the idea of wasting time due to the scarcity of our environment.
Flow has nothing to do with what other people define as hard. It’s fundamentally personal. Flow is a task that is hard enough for you that it is still work, but you are skilled enough you can do it masterfully. It’s when you think to yourself in the moment, ”yeah OK this is not easy, but damn, I’m GOOD at this! This is fun!”
Watching TV is unlikely to reach a flow state for you because I doubt you personally find watching TV challenging. Of course, if you did find it challenging, you could perhaps reach that state.
Watching TV is unlikely to reach a flow state for you because I doubt you personally find watching TV challenging. Of course, if you did find it challenging, you could perhaps reach that state.
The article talks about two types of happiness. “hedonic” and “euphoric”.
I don’t think it matters personally. However, you reach a series of “happy” days that work for you is all that matters.
I say, if you want to think of a value for your life. Add up the sum of how you liked your days.
However you get there, It doesn’t matter.
I don’t think it matters personally. However, you reach a series of “happy” days that work for you is all that matters.
I say, if you want to think of a value for your life. Add up the sum of how you liked your days.
However you get there, It doesn’t matter.
I think “euphoric” is the same as “hedonic.”
He was discussing “eudaimonic” happiness, and basically was pushing folks towards that.
It’s a web ‘zine for folks near retirement, so it’s basically, saying “play golf,” or “putter about in the workshop,” to stretch some stereotypes.
Me, I’m definitely a “putter about in the workshop” kind of guy. Seems to do the trick for me.
[EDIT] Added “about” to “putter in the workshop.”
He was discussing “eudaimonic” happiness, and basically was pushing folks towards that.
It’s a web ‘zine for folks near retirement, so it’s basically, saying “play golf,” or “putter about in the workshop,” to stretch some stereotypes.
Me, I’m definitely a “putter about in the workshop” kind of guy. Seems to do the trick for me.
[EDIT] Added “about” to “putter in the workshop.”
I was struggling to figure out the relationship of working on a putter in a workshop if you were not playing golf.
THEN I realized you were not talking about a putter.
THEN I realized you were not talking about a putter.
Good point.
You can tell I don’t play golf.
I tweaked it.
You can tell I don’t play golf.
I tweaked it.
Do things you like doing, and don't do things you don't like doing. Boom
But which “you” matters here? Is it the you of the current moment, next hour, tomorrow, next month, etc…?
Any activity you do regularly and consistently will bring about different emotions and states of mind on different days. Some days you can’t wait to get started and some times you go weeks of having no motivation towards it.
I’m on a journey right now of hiking 50 miles a week. On most days, being able to get in nature for an hour or more is such a serene and grounding experience that brings me a lot of joy. But there are weeks where I don’t want to get out there, and even when I get started I don’t want to be there. But looking back, I see those days as part of the whole experience. I have retroactive enjoyment and pride in having pushed myself (type 2 fun) and I know that the subsequent 50 mile weeks are easier and more enjoyable because I kept the consistency up.
Yes, it is good to take breaks from things when you’re not enjoying them anymore. This allows you to reevaluate and get back your motivating “why”. But it can also be extremely hard to get back into a routine after a relatively short break. Anyone who has not exercised for a few weeks will know that feeling of weakness when they get started again.
Any activity you do regularly and consistently will bring about different emotions and states of mind on different days. Some days you can’t wait to get started and some times you go weeks of having no motivation towards it.
I’m on a journey right now of hiking 50 miles a week. On most days, being able to get in nature for an hour or more is such a serene and grounding experience that brings me a lot of joy. But there are weeks where I don’t want to get out there, and even when I get started I don’t want to be there. But looking back, I see those days as part of the whole experience. I have retroactive enjoyment and pride in having pushed myself (type 2 fun) and I know that the subsequent 50 mile weeks are easier and more enjoyable because I kept the consistency up.
Yes, it is good to take breaks from things when you’re not enjoying them anymore. This allows you to reevaluate and get back your motivating “why”. But it can also be extremely hard to get back into a routine after a relatively short break. Anyone who has not exercised for a few weeks will know that feeling of weakness when they get started again.
I'd argue that the problem when you don't feel motivated (provided it's not because of a lack of sleep, hydration, or nutrition that's making you feel tired) is that you are not learning something new. This is why it's important to vary the location, or time, or who you go hiking with etc. If you add some variety to your activity, you will feel more motivated because you'll get to learn/experience something new, which is intrinsically exciting and rewarding.
Epicurianism badically, which I usually temper with a dash of stoicism; learn to suffer through the things you don't like when they can't be avoided.
I don't like working, and I like smoking crack. You're saying that my path to happiness?
>I don't like working, and I like smoking crack. You're saying that my path to happiness?
From the standpoint of immediacy, it absolutely can be.
From a medium to long term standpoint, the path this presents may or may not be a happy one (I posit that happiness is a process and not a resting state), which is highly dependent upon your circumstances.
If you're fabulously wealthy, smoking crack all day for the rest of your life might be a very happy path.
If you're not, there are likely some bumps along that path which could negatively impact one's happiness.
Your "argument" attempts to conflate the travails of a tiny minority (those whose lives are negatively impacted by substance use issues) of us as a major component of the process called "happiness."
Which is unfortunate, as there's (as has been mentioned elsewhere here) that hedonistic activities (like smoking crack) are certainly on the same spectrum as eudaimonic activities (like working at a job you find fulfilling) and are, in their effects, quite similar.
Yes, I do realize your "argument" is a straw man specifically designed with all sorts of baggage to placate folks into not looking too closely at that "argument."
I'm sorry I'm unable to be placated thusly.
From the standpoint of immediacy, it absolutely can be.
From a medium to long term standpoint, the path this presents may or may not be a happy one (I posit that happiness is a process and not a resting state), which is highly dependent upon your circumstances.
If you're fabulously wealthy, smoking crack all day for the rest of your life might be a very happy path.
If you're not, there are likely some bumps along that path which could negatively impact one's happiness.
Your "argument" attempts to conflate the travails of a tiny minority (those whose lives are negatively impacted by substance use issues) of us as a major component of the process called "happiness."
Which is unfortunate, as there's (as has been mentioned elsewhere here) that hedonistic activities (like smoking crack) are certainly on the same spectrum as eudaimonic activities (like working at a job you find fulfilling) and are, in their effects, quite similar.
Yes, I do realize your "argument" is a straw man specifically designed with all sorts of baggage to placate folks into not looking too closely at that "argument."
I'm sorry I'm unable to be placated thusly.
I meet many beggars and if they tell me hey I just need it for crack, I'm like, you're Jesus's favorite every one of you, I have very little, but in relative terms compared to them I'm still in practice rich. Like literally I feel embarrassed when I have to tell them I don't have something, I apologize in fact in these cases. I plan ahead for when I'm outside make sure I have loose change and not 10 peso Chilean pennies like actual 500 peso coins (50 cents), money for real. Let them be happy for a bit, hell. State of California did it for me (for ADD treatment, a stimulant), and I paid crazy extra taxes back despite having nothing, just so they can do it for another junkie again.
I'm like, if it's your money you begged for it spend it on whatever you really want, whatever you really really want. There was a serious presidential candidate here saying, Jadué[1]. So what you do with the addicts is you dispense them a reasonable amount, of whatever. Anything.
And really? They're not addicted by accident. There's a reason there wasn't a crack epidemic in the 60's, it wasn't because people couldn't figure out the trivial recipe with fucking baking soda and cocaine like in any kitchen? The CIA did not invent crack because nobody can invent crack because it's not patentable, it's obvious. In fact the crack epidemic is a response to the 60's, crack cures the system of the counter-culture.
[1] I like his party I like that he's Marxist, I feel red too, and American Republican, just like the color red, let me declare it here. Color-based political affiliation in Chile and in America, just red in both. Republican red, Marxist red. That's legal, you can be a Republican and a card-carrying Communist if you're open about it. I'll see where I can get an actual card I can carry. I just like the color red.
EDIT: this came out with a lot of explosion, good thing it's nested deep in the comments, let it be known I had to leave a lot out. That was some really unwise stuff to write...even drafting it, like any javascript keylogger...oh well I'll compile it, it'll be in a book perhaps. Well I guess anything that goes through a computer is public from day one. Anyway, a book about what's up, why you can't just reach out for happiness like you mock real people for doing. It's actually not that complicated. It's upcoming. Maybe. I actually am figuring out my business and my idealism simultaneously, and you can read about it all on http://www.fgemm.com .
I'm like, if it's your money you begged for it spend it on whatever you really want, whatever you really really want. There was a serious presidential candidate here saying, Jadué[1]. So what you do with the addicts is you dispense them a reasonable amount, of whatever. Anything.
And really? They're not addicted by accident. There's a reason there wasn't a crack epidemic in the 60's, it wasn't because people couldn't figure out the trivial recipe with fucking baking soda and cocaine like in any kitchen? The CIA did not invent crack because nobody can invent crack because it's not patentable, it's obvious. In fact the crack epidemic is a response to the 60's, crack cures the system of the counter-culture.
[1] I like his party I like that he's Marxist, I feel red too, and American Republican, just like the color red, let me declare it here. Color-based political affiliation in Chile and in America, just red in both. Republican red, Marxist red. That's legal, you can be a Republican and a card-carrying Communist if you're open about it. I'll see where I can get an actual card I can carry. I just like the color red.
EDIT: this came out with a lot of explosion, good thing it's nested deep in the comments, let it be known I had to leave a lot out. That was some really unwise stuff to write...even drafting it, like any javascript keylogger...oh well I'll compile it, it'll be in a book perhaps. Well I guess anything that goes through a computer is public from day one. Anyway, a book about what's up, why you can't just reach out for happiness like you mock real people for doing. It's actually not that complicated. It's upcoming. Maybe. I actually am figuring out my business and my idealism simultaneously, and you can read about it all on http://www.fgemm.com .
> I meet many beggars and if they tell me hey I just need it for crack, I'm like, you're Jesus's favorite every one of you, I have very little, but in relative terms compared to them I'm still in practice rich.
Totally true
> Let them be happy for a bit, hell.
Also true: we shouldn't cast judgement on their favorite type of happiness, lest they cast their judgement on ours.
> I'm like, if it's your money you begged for it spend it on whatever you really want, whatever you really really want.
And you respect freedom?
Overall, words of true wisdom. Amen to that.
> EDIT: this came out with a lot of explosion, good thing it's nested deep in the comments, let it be known I had to leave a lot out.
Don't self censor please. Actually good and unique content is a rare find.
Totally true
> Let them be happy for a bit, hell.
Also true: we shouldn't cast judgement on their favorite type of happiness, lest they cast their judgement on ours.
> I'm like, if it's your money you begged for it spend it on whatever you really want, whatever you really really want.
And you respect freedom?
Overall, words of true wisdom. Amen to that.
> EDIT: this came out with a lot of explosion, good thing it's nested deep in the comments, let it be known I had to leave a lot out.
Don't self censor please. Actually good and unique content is a rare find.
Boom, I'm homeless.
Imagine making a sumptuous dinner and then sharing it with friends. There would be the eudaimonic happiness associated with preparing a great meal and then the hedonic pleasure of enjoying it with others. You get both types of happiness—but you get them at different times.
Different times? I don't really agree. Sharing an event of any kind has always been much more fun (and rewarding) for me; there's just no comparison.
In fact, from my experience, you can always have both "type of happiness," and I wouldn't have it any other way.
Different times? I don't really agree. Sharing an event of any kind has always been much more fun (and rewarding) for me; there's just no comparison.
In fact, from my experience, you can always have both "type of happiness," and I wouldn't have it any other way.
Isn't happiness just one of many emotions? Why is there such an obsession with it?
Happiness is silly and blithe. Better to have a deep well to draw from and good health.
Happiness is the not same as fulfillment/contentment in life.
Whoever wrote this seems like a miserable person
happiness is also how you choose to frame your world, not necessarily from doing an external action
Ikigai