Outdoor Dining Is Doomed(theatlantic.com)
theatlantic.com
Outdoor Dining Is Doomed
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2023/01/restaurants-outdoor-dining-winter-covid/672904/
54 comments
> Wow someone really ought to let the rest of the world outside of America know.
It's exactly the same as you describe in many European cities. When you pack houses next to each other and stack apartments on top one of another, which is the definition of a city, you get concrete. Lots of concrete.
Sure some European cities may have historical city center totally car free but most restaurants have outdoor terrace on regular streets, complete with cars, lots of people passing by, noise (not just from cars) and dog poo.
I agree with you one point: it's not a relaxing environment to eat.
It's exactly the same as you describe in many European cities. When you pack houses next to each other and stack apartments on top one of another, which is the definition of a city, you get concrete. Lots of concrete.
Sure some European cities may have historical city center totally car free but most restaurants have outdoor terrace on regular streets, complete with cars, lots of people passing by, noise (not just from cars) and dog poo.
I agree with you one point: it's not a relaxing environment to eat.
Car noise is the dominating noise in cities: https://youtu.be/CTV-wwszGw8
One thing I’ve noticed in tightly packed cities like Paris is that neighborhoods in the city proper are very quiet because there’s little car traffic. If there is traffic, it’s light enough to not make it through one tightly packed row of units. Contrast to any American city, and most downtown areas will be within hearing distance of a large freeway.
This problem isn’t solved globally, but there are loads of cities that are very pleasant to be in outside. That’s not the case in North America, mostly because of car traffic. (Space inefficient, so less room for nice things, loud, and dangerous)
One thing I’ve noticed in tightly packed cities like Paris is that neighborhoods in the city proper are very quiet because there’s little car traffic. If there is traffic, it’s light enough to not make it through one tightly packed row of units. Contrast to any American city, and most downtown areas will be within hearing distance of a large freeway.
This problem isn’t solved globally, but there are loads of cities that are very pleasant to be in outside. That’s not the case in North America, mostly because of car traffic. (Space inefficient, so less room for nice things, loud, and dangerous)
In many but definitely not a general trend that you can't find a nice spot to eat outdoors. Even in very crowded cities like Paris you have tons of options to eat by the street and enjoy a pleasant experience.
Barcelona, Stockholm, Amsterdam, Paris, Madrid, Lisbon, Porto, Copenhagen, so on and so forth are all cities I thoroughly enjoy to eat outdoors during summers, in almost any part of the cities, and not only in their "historical centres".
It's definitely not even close to the same issue as in North American cities.
Barcelona, Stockholm, Amsterdam, Paris, Madrid, Lisbon, Porto, Copenhagen, so on and so forth are all cities I thoroughly enjoy to eat outdoors during summers, in almost any part of the cities, and not only in their "historical centres".
It's definitely not even close to the same issue as in North American cities.
Dublin (and really Irish cities in general are a bit more mixed). Because of restrictions on smoking indoors in the 2000s, many restaurants and bars have had time to build outdoor areas pre-covid. In some of those, where the outdoor area was nice enough (e.g not on the roadside, not a little cubbyhole which used to be just a yard for bins that was converted, and sufficiently spaced that smoke from the smokers is unlikely to reach you), you'd have non-smokers also choose to use the outdoor area.
I think those places that were already set up for this before the pandemic, along with those who have managed to create such an experience, will continue with a slight uptick in outdoor dining.
Those who just put some tables and chairs on the pavement in front of the store will not, especially amongst increasing calls to reclaim that space for pedestrians and cycle lanes.
I think those places that were already set up for this before the pandemic, along with those who have managed to create such an experience, will continue with a slight uptick in outdoor dining.
Those who just put some tables and chairs on the pavement in front of the store will not, especially amongst increasing calls to reclaim that space for pedestrians and cycle lanes.
My first time outside North America was Madrid. I loved eating outside at all these restaurants that were on cobblestone roads that saw almost no traffic.
But I also didn’t enjoy how loud it was at 11pm with there being many patios near my apartment, given I hadn’t yet adopted their culture of a later evening.
But I also didn’t enjoy how loud it was at 11pm with there being many patios near my apartment, given I hadn’t yet adopted their culture of a later evening.
> Wow someone really ought to let the rest of the world outside of America know.
Or even Southern California. Turns out when you have good weather and properly planned spaces for dining, it's quite popular.
This article reeks of New Yorkers being obsessed with the smell of their own farts assuming if they have a problem, everyone else must too. Which is funny because they also had plenty of established popular outdoor dining well before the pandemic, it was just on the rooftops.
Or even Southern California. Turns out when you have good weather and properly planned spaces for dining, it's quite popular.
This article reeks of New Yorkers being obsessed with the smell of their own farts assuming if they have a problem, everyone else must too. Which is funny because they also had plenty of established popular outdoor dining well before the pandemic, it was just on the rooftops.
Doesn't matter how nice you make it, I'm not eating outside during the cold months. It's freaking cold, and those outdoor propane heaters are not only marginally effective, they're a clear and obvious environmental insult.
In Slovenia coffee shops give out blankets during the cold months. They’re bery popular with smokers.
This happened in the UK during lockdown as well, when you were allowed to meet for dinner outside but not inside, a lot of restaurants suddenly sprouted outdoor heating lamps and a lot of blankets.
gotta say, as someone made weak by the bay area climate and now intolerant of cold, this sounds awesome. except the smokers.
I’m sitting outside my home right now wishing I had a blanket for smoking in the cold.
It depends on the food. I probably wouldn't want to do it for sushi or a salad, but I love eating ramen outside in the snow when it's around 32F / 0C. The same could go for poutine or hot chocolate or many other dishes.
If there's some sort of covered space or a heater then even colder temperatures might be nice.
If there's some sort of covered space or a heater then even colder temperatures might be nice.
Seriously! This is one reason I've never liked the plague era designs.
I constantly feel like I'm about to be run over...
I constantly feel like I'm about to be run over...
I doubt there would be many restaurants left if you get rid of the trucks delivering the food / picking up the trash and the Ubers dropping patrons off.
Outdoor dining is fine and will continue to be fine.
Outdoor dining that was not properly planned for, and was shoved in at the last minute to accommodate covid restrictions will probably die out.
Outdoor dining that is:
- On a pedestrian only (or low traffic) street
- Covered (simple overhang is fine)
- Heated as needed (or just closed on particularly cold/rainy days)
Will stick around for a long time (and mostly predates covid anyways). New York certainly has some areas that are great for this - but given that a lot of the city is... dirty, smelly, and car infested... I don't see outdoor dining hanging around in those spots.
Outdoor dining that was not properly planned for, and was shoved in at the last minute to accommodate covid restrictions will probably die out.
Outdoor dining that is:
- On a pedestrian only (or low traffic) street
- Covered (simple overhang is fine)
- Heated as needed (or just closed on particularly cold/rainy days)
Will stick around for a long time (and mostly predates covid anyways). New York certainly has some areas that are great for this - but given that a lot of the city is... dirty, smelly, and car infested... I don't see outdoor dining hanging around in those spots.
Most of the outdoor dining doesn't even need to be covered if its situated in a pedestrian area surrounded by tall buildings. Market Street in Charlottesville Virginia is exactly this, and is an excellent place to dine outside throughout most of the year - the surrounding buildings block wind and shade out bright sunlight. Of course there is rain, but that's maybe 10-20% of the year which depresses foot traffic already.
The article is very far from insightful, or even well written.
I apologize if this is mean, but who even are The Atlantic's readers?
The prose is too dry to overlap with tabloids or, like, Time Magazine. It's strictly worse at essays and cultural commentary than the New Yorker. It's strictly worse at lit than the Paris Review.
Who reads this stuff, and why?
I apologize if this is mean, but who even are The Atlantic's readers?
The prose is too dry to overlap with tabloids or, like, Time Magazine. It's strictly worse at essays and cultural commentary than the New Yorker. It's strictly worse at lit than the Paris Review.
Who reads this stuff, and why?
The Atlantic is usually decent, and it is not wise to draw conclusions from a single article.
But yes, this turned me off entirely, from the start.
Golly gee, people aren't eating outside in uncovered, unheated cold in the North.
I live in south Texas, right around the latitude of Cairo, Egypt. We aren't eating outside as much right now, either.
But yes, this turned me off entirely, from the start.
Golly gee, people aren't eating outside in uncovered, unheated cold in the North.
I live in south Texas, right around the latitude of Cairo, Egypt. We aren't eating outside as much right now, either.
This article kinda sucks and sounds like it was written by a complete NIMBY. I don't have the energy to do a proper full rebuttal, but I'll just respond to one representative dumb line from the article:
> For one thing, dining sheds tend to take up parking spaces needed to attract customers, Cutting-Jones said.
This is absolute bullshit. In the space it takes for one car to park, you can easily have a dozen or more patrons dining there. And these streeteries are located in dense cities (the article's title image is clearly Manhattan), where, guess what, the VAST majority of people aren't driving to go out for dinner.
Also, yes, it's winter. Of course outdoor dining is less popular (though I'm still routinely drinking outdoors on sidewalk tables at my favorite bar). But you know what? Winter won't last forever, and the outdoor dining will be bustling again soon enough.
I'm so tired of hearing these same lame car-centric takes over and over again. Let's just leave everything as parking and never have anything nice on the streets. I bet this guy would get rid of sidewalks too if he had his way.
> For one thing, dining sheds tend to take up parking spaces needed to attract customers, Cutting-Jones said.
This is absolute bullshit. In the space it takes for one car to park, you can easily have a dozen or more patrons dining there. And these streeteries are located in dense cities (the article's title image is clearly Manhattan), where, guess what, the VAST majority of people aren't driving to go out for dinner.
Also, yes, it's winter. Of course outdoor dining is less popular (though I'm still routinely drinking outdoors on sidewalk tables at my favorite bar). But you know what? Winter won't last forever, and the outdoor dining will be bustling again soon enough.
I'm so tired of hearing these same lame car-centric takes over and over again. Let's just leave everything as parking and never have anything nice on the streets. I bet this guy would get rid of sidewalks too if he had his way.
Also, businesses overestimate the need for parking. https://phys.org/news/2021-07-shoppers-mobility-habits-retai...
As an european I can't stop laughing at that headline - and I am pretty sure lots of HN'ers from other parts of the world will too...
Do Americans exclusively eat inside? I can't imagine opening a place in Australia and not setting up some form of outdoor dining.
Wow someone really ought to let the rest of the world outside of car-oriented America know.
Outdoor dining sucks in most North American cities because you get to eat right next to a bunch of loud, polluting car traffic zooming by 5 ft away. Last time I ate outside in Chicago I could reach out and touch an idling minivan. No thank you.
Outdoor dining sucks in most North American cities because you get to eat right next to a bunch of loud, polluting car traffic zooming by 5 ft away. Last time I ate outside in Chicago I could reach out and touch an idling minivan. No thank you.
> Wow someone really ought to let the rest of the world outside of car-oriented America know.
I live in the usa. The places I've been to that have outdoor tables and aren't in pedestrian areas tend to have a giant parking lot shielding them from any high-traffic roads. The place that was an exception to that was on the edge of a university campus with relatively slow traffic.
I live in the usa. The places I've been to that have outdoor tables and aren't in pedestrian areas tend to have a giant parking lot shielding them from any high-traffic roads. The place that was an exception to that was on the edge of a university campus with relatively slow traffic.
Right, but in a lot of non-US cities, "pedestrian areas" covers a much greater proportion of restaurants. Secondly, even for restaurants _on_ roads for cars, they often have space "out back" where the buildings on street itself provides the noise dampening for the dining area. Since the buildings are terraced/joined, it's effectively a wall of buildings between the dining areas out back and the road itself.
So will electrics cars help bringing an alfresco dining revolution?
Getting rid of the cars certainly will. There's lots of streets in e.g. Manhattan that simply need to have the on-street parking removed, and some of them even need to have the car lanes removed entirely (the most obvious candidates are 32nd St in K-Town, Broadway between Times Square and Union Square Park, those few blocks in Little Italy with all the restaurants, and similar).
No, because they are still noisy and polluting (a huge amount of air pollution comes from bits of tires flaking off, which is still a problem for EVs).
They're also extremely dangerous (just like gas cars). Crazy people and elderly people sometimes drive them into pedestrians and other crowded areas.
dupe comment?
Feels like a fluff piece. Of course fewer people sit outside to eat when it’s below freezing. That doesn’t mean outdoor dining is “doomed”.
In a few months time "You wont believe this ONE thing that has SAVED Outdoor Dining!!!"
Spoiler: Summer.
Spoiler: Summer.
You are probably posting form California or Europe. Summer in much of the US has a humid continental climate. Which means there are about 3 weeks in spring and fall when the sitting outside is as pleasant as conditioned air.
Otherwise you have humidity, rain, bugs, etc for your meal, and you will be perspiring quite a bit.
Otherwise you have humidity, rain, bugs, etc for your meal, and you will be perspiring quite a bit.
Even in Houston, which is an exceptionally hot and humid city in the summer, and cold and humid in the winter, outdoor dining is ubiquitous across the city in all seasons. A popular restaurant down the street from me is outdoor-only and stays packed in the evenings year round. There is no dearth of outdoor dining in the US.
On monsoon days, or during periods of peak heat/cold? Yes, the outdoor table attendance is down, but rarely zero.
As others have stated though, outdoor dining in other cities is typically nothing at all like what the Atlantic is discussing in NYC. NYC wasn't built for outdoor dining, but it has nothing to do with being car-centric, or too hot/humid.
On monsoon days, or during periods of peak heat/cold? Yes, the outdoor table attendance is down, but rarely zero.
As others have stated though, outdoor dining in other cities is typically nothing at all like what the Atlantic is discussing in NYC. NYC wasn't built for outdoor dining, but it has nothing to do with being car-centric, or too hot/humid.
You won't believe it, but in Asia outdoor dining is common AND it's quite humid. And bugs! Yet people keep doing it.
Where? I don't think people do it here nearly as much as in Europe.
In Japan you rarely see outdoor seats at restaurants, for example.
Malaysia, Vietnam, (southern) China, Thailand, Indonesia... Usually under shade/rain protection but open air.
Pretty common in Vietnam
> Which means there are about 3 weeks in spring and fall when the sitting outside is as pleasant as conditioned air.
Highly subjective. I often find it more pleasant to sit outside for most of what I consider the warm part of the year, which includes summer. I eat lunch outside almost every day and love it.
Highly subjective. I often find it more pleasant to sit outside for most of what I consider the warm part of the year, which includes summer. I eat lunch outside almost every day and love it.
I think it refers to the specific model of pandemic outdoor dining: eat in a dirty, rat infested plywood shack.
The confusion of the journalists is such that they expected people would desire this after the period of exceptional circumstances
The confusion of the journalists is such that they expected people would desire this after the period of exceptional circumstances
I can see why media folks are afraid of ChatGPT taking their job.
These days web pages instead of links to support articles should include query to ChatGPT that generated them.
"For a only $5/m you can see all the queries we used to generate these articles..."
This is a killer rebuttal to insipid low-thought articles. I'm stealing it.
Outdoor dining in the nice parts of America will continue being as amazing as it always has been. NYC is a cramped, overcrowded island that literally doesn't have enough room for dumpsters; trash on the streets, rats, and all the obvious follow-on effects obviously degrade the experience there.
NYC chooses to have rat infested dumpsters and trash bags on the sidewalk, parked cars and traffic.
Other places with NYC density have pedestrian-first areas for outdoor dining, transform car parks into patios in the warmer months, and transform old parking lots into beer gardens, food truck events etc.
Other places with NYC density have pedestrian-first areas for outdoor dining, transform car parks into patios in the warmer months, and transform old parking lots into beer gardens, food truck events etc.
A lot of small cities in the South are like that. Beaufort and New Bern are some of my favorite places in the world to eat outside.
Beaufort is a great spot. I almost lived there 20 years ago but the job fell through (company went under).
All of that is true, but living in Manhattan is fantastic. But, the weather in California is certainly much better.
The last thing I wanna do with the restaurant is sit on the sidewalk and smell fumes and have to deal with people constantly walking by.
Who would have thought that people would come to the shocking conclusion that having your food rained on isn't much fun?
American hipster moves into big loud dirty city and complains of eating outside…
Maybe it's the cars that are doomed.
Outdoor dining sucks in most North American cities because you get to eat right next to a bunch of loud, polluting car traffic zooming by a few feet away. Last time I ate outside in Chicago I could reach out and touch an idling minivan. No thank you. New York City keeps their garbage, most of the time, again, within touching or at the very least smelling distance of outdoor eateries. The city is loud because it's overrun with automobile traffic. Who the hell would want to eat in that environment?
Perhaps we could work on making the rest of our cities look and feel like the parks that are usually popular places to bring lunch, since, you know, they're quiet and feel safe.