Amazon reports its first unprofitable year since 2014(npr.org)
npr.org
Amazon reports its first unprofitable year since 2014
https://www.npr.org/2023/02/02/1153562994/amazon-reports-its-first-unprofitable-year-since-2014
194 comments
I stopped after getting fake items. Yes, getting my money in return was fairly easy. But then I still needed to buy it from somewhere else and had wasted a few days.
And it's quite scary, as some of these items go on/into my body. Like cosmetics, toothpaste, whatever. Or are electronics that can catch fire, like a charger.
Add to that, I don't want to figure out which of 5000 different USB chargers is the best or the cheapest or not a scam. Just give me one I can trust. When I have to do that for every search, the mental load is too high and I just grab it from somewhere else.
And it's quite scary, as some of these items go on/into my body. Like cosmetics, toothpaste, whatever. Or are electronics that can catch fire, like a charger.
Add to that, I don't want to figure out which of 5000 different USB chargers is the best or the cheapest or not a scam. Just give me one I can trust. When I have to do that for every search, the mental load is too high and I just grab it from somewhere else.
I was scammed hundreds of dollars buying counterfeit microphones on amazon[0]. Amazon did not provide any way to handle this other than a generic form. The sellers refused to send my money unless I removed my reviews, which I was not going to do at all. I followed the seller's page around, and after a few weeks they renamed themselves to "Sally's Cosmetics"[1] or something, and I posted more reviews on their page. Eventually they disappeared with one of the Amazon counterfeit seller purges. How convenient for Amazon and the seller.
Amazon is like eBay to me. I value my time and cash too much to get involved.
[0] I know, I hadn't been on amazon in a while. I forgot not to buy music equipment (or anything not disposable) from Amazon.
[1] So counterfeit sellers have sold cosmetics on Amazon, and that should be obvious from the state of the store, I guess..
Amazon is like eBay to me. I value my time and cash too much to get involved.
[0] I know, I hadn't been on amazon in a while. I forgot not to buy music equipment (or anything not disposable) from Amazon.
[1] So counterfeit sellers have sold cosmetics on Amazon, and that should be obvious from the state of the store, I guess..
Amazon wouldn’t accept a return? I don’t return a lot, but when I have it’s been really easy - no questions asked, just fill in the form then take it to the nearest Whole Foods.
They've gone downhill enough I've started returning a fair bit of things and it's almost always effortless.
Only time it was a hassle was when a price dropped the day after my order, and they don't have price matching, so customer service suggest re-buying and returning and promised me free return shipping.
That promise turned out to be worthless, and I had a helluva time trying to get them to pay for return shipping across the country for a squat rack.
Thankfully, I did succeed in the end (phone support person was much better, chat people ran me around in circles). I didn't get the at-home pickup I was originally promised, but fortunately I owned a spare old pickup truck.
Only time it was a hassle was when a price dropped the day after my order, and they don't have price matching, so customer service suggest re-buying and returning and promised me free return shipping.
That promise turned out to be worthless, and I had a helluva time trying to get them to pay for return shipping across the country for a squat rack.
Thankfully, I did succeed in the end (phone support person was much better, chat people ran me around in circles). I didn't get the at-home pickup I was originally promised, but fortunately I owned a spare old pickup truck.
Not that I could find from looking at my past orders on amazon.com and trying to go through support.
I didn't think of the Whole Foods angle, I'll look into that, thanks. At least I'll have someone to talk to about it.
I didn't think of the Whole Foods angle, I'll look into that, thanks. At least I'll have someone to talk to about it.
You do need to fill in a (very simple) form first - but at least for my recent orders it's fairly straightforward: in the "My Orders" list, there's a "Return or replace items" button on the right hand side, (_below_ the yellow "Get product support one). It does disappear after a while - looking at my account a month maybe?
Depending on whom you actually bought the product from (Amazon is a seller of only a decreasing fraction of the items on Amazon) returns might range from trivial to miserable.
I've spent more than $20k on Amazon over the years total, and the one and only time I had to return something (for a low-dollar item), they totally screwed me on it.
That was the straw that broke the camel's back for me.
That was the straw that broke the camel's back for me.
I'm not sure I want to know how much I've spent on Amazon, but I'm sure it's a lot. I too went years with nearly weekly purchases with no issues at all. Maybe a delivery that was later than the estimated date here and there, but that's it.
In the last few months though things have become measurably worse for me. In the last three months I've had to send nearly every order back. Orders have been incomplete, or wrong (like, children's Shrek t-shirts instead of reams of copier paper). They've sent incomplete orders, or obviously not-new "new" items (with finger prints, food crumbs, wads of newspaper), or the products advertised were not even remotely what was described.
It's not that surprising to see Amazon posting poor numbers. I've stopped purchasing from Amazon, buying direct from the people making the things I buy if possible. It costs more, and takes longer to arrive, but now I'm not burning time fixing Amazon's stupid problems.
In the last few months though things have become measurably worse for me. In the last three months I've had to send nearly every order back. Orders have been incomplete, or wrong (like, children's Shrek t-shirts instead of reams of copier paper). They've sent incomplete orders, or obviously not-new "new" items (with finger prints, food crumbs, wads of newspaper), or the products advertised were not even remotely what was described.
It's not that surprising to see Amazon posting poor numbers. I've stopped purchasing from Amazon, buying direct from the people making the things I buy if possible. It costs more, and takes longer to arrive, but now I'm not burning time fixing Amazon's stupid problems.
Amazon is now a huge heaping pile and has been for years. Glad people are catching on. I have almost never had an issue with eBay, Etsy, random websites.
Yep, I just ordered from them again for the first time in a while... Big mistake.
My order was very simple, just a pack of head bands since when I go for runs I sweat way too much.
After my run I took the head band off and my forehead was DYED the color of the band and later broke out in hives...
Grimly reminded me Victorian Era arsenic-based green dyes, which leached from fabrics into people's skin and made them very sick.
Amazon desperately needs content curation somehow, the experience of figuring out which headband to buy was so awful... And after all that, it caused a mild injury from god-knows-what chemicals.
My order was very simple, just a pack of head bands since when I go for runs I sweat way too much.
After my run I took the head band off and my forehead was DYED the color of the band and later broke out in hives...
Grimly reminded me Victorian Era arsenic-based green dyes, which leached from fabrics into people's skin and made them very sick.
Amazon desperately needs content curation somehow, the experience of figuring out which headband to buy was so awful... And after all that, it caused a mild injury from god-knows-what chemicals.
The solution is simple but the shareholders won’t like it: remove third party sellers.
They don't even have to remove them. Just move them to a separate marketplace under the Amazon umbrella.
If Amazon had a "Prime Plus" or something that would allow me to find and order non-third-party-seller, accurately described, quality products with a robust no bullshit "whatever the cost, will go above and beyond fixing any problems in the rare event they occur" attitude, I'd be very interested.
I also wouldn't mind a marketplace that is well known to be hit or miss. When I place an order on alibaba or bangood, I know exactly the risks I'm taking. That risk, weirdly, almost makes it entertaining. "Is it going to be the ball bearings I ordered, or a pair of Crocs shoe knockoffs, or a beef jerky? Place your bets!"
I also wouldn't mind a marketplace that is well known to be hit or miss. When I place an order on alibaba or bangood, I know exactly the risks I'm taking. That risk, weirdly, almost makes it entertaining. "Is it going to be the ball bearings I ordered, or a pair of Crocs shoe knockoffs, or a beef jerky? Place your bets!"
If Amazon had a "Prime Plus" or something that would allow me to find and order non-third-party-seller, accurately described, quality products with a robust no bullshit "whatever the cost, will go above and beyond fixing any problems in the rare event they occur" attitude, I'd be very interested.
I have to assume that such an option exists. There is no way in hell that Amazon execs are limited to the same search options and overall UX as ordinary users. We just don't have access to the VIP entrance.
I have to assume that such an option exists. There is no way in hell that Amazon execs are limited to the same search options and overall UX as ordinary users. We just don't have access to the VIP entrance.
Making such a subscription publicly available is a blatant admittance that the platform has gone to such shit that one needs to pay for a filter so you don't break out in to colorful hives.
I doubt Amazon execs use Amazon.
I doubt Amazon execs use Amazon.
If they did that they would be highly unprofitable though.
3rd party sellers pay them for ads. Then they pay them if a product is sold. And then they pay them for packing and shipping the product. And then they pay them if the product is returned and they don’t even get any of the money they pay Amazon back if the product is returned.
It’s no wonder Amazon is filled with sellers of fake products because any seller of legitimate products could barely survive on their marketplace with all the fees Amazon showers them with.
3rd party sellers pay them for ads. Then they pay them if a product is sold. And then they pay them for packing and shipping the product. And then they pay them if the product is returned and they don’t even get any of the money they pay Amazon back if the product is returned.
It’s no wonder Amazon is filled with sellers of fake products because any seller of legitimate products could barely survive on their marketplace with all the fees Amazon showers them with.
The product you describe has ABSOLUTELY ZERO USE CASE IN THE WORLD. It is purely a scam. Amazon is now the biggest mall where half the shit will make you break out into rainbow hives. I'm glad people are finally catching on. F that company, mostly.
Yeah, this. All but the most trivial of items I’ve bought this year I was disappointed with. I don’t want my money back, I want the item to be what I expected.
And there’s no recourse if there’s a serious problem. When people found melamine in the toothpaste at Walmart, lawsuits were filed and things were recalled. If that happens from EBANEZCR, NKAM, or PLCEM, who are real sellers I just looked up, they disappear and Amazon isn’t held liable. Then the same contaminated fake product continues to be sold under a dozen other sellers.
I went through this exact thought process. Maybe I could find the perfect one and get it delivered quick at a the best price. It wasn't worth the downside risk. Instead I went to a brick-and-mortar store, got the most appropriate GaN compact charger they had in stock and couldn't be happier.
Amazon is now Aliexpress with (sometimes) local shipping.
For years we've been told that the worker in Shenzhen is cheaper than the one in Seattle. Now I tell you, Jeff, that the entrepreneur in Shenzhen is cheaper than the one in Seattle.
For years we've been told that the worker in Shenzhen is cheaper than the one in Seattle. Now I tell you, Jeff, that the entrepreneur in Shenzhen is cheaper than the one in Seattle.
Have you ever tried to search for something on Aliexpress? It is the worst experience I have ever had. "Free Shipping" button (sometimes) shows things with free shipping, or the actual price of the item showing as $0.99 when that is for the optional plastic lid or whatever. Only about half the time I try to use Aliexpress it gives me the results I want.
Furthermore, it is stupidly obvious when something is just being dropshipped vs coming from Amazon's warehouse, just look for the Prime logo on the items. At least with Amazon I get things relatively quickly even compared to other US based options such as Ebay or even going through the retailer directly
Furthermore, it is stupidly obvious when something is just being dropshipped vs coming from Amazon's warehouse, just look for the Prime logo on the items. At least with Amazon I get things relatively quickly even compared to other US based options such as Ebay or even going through the retailer directly
The issue isn't who's doing the shipping. The issue is that Amazon is, for most product categories, 90% a front for Alibaba resellers. Nothing against Alibaba/Aliexpress, I get stuff from them all the time, but there are times when I specifically don't want those products.
If you're willing to wait a month Aliexpress is all the same stuff for 1/10 the price.
If you're willing to wait a month Aliexpress is all the same stuff for 1/10 the price.
My _favourite_ part of searching on AliExpress is that, when you’re logged in, 90% of any search results have nothing to do with, you know, the search query, and are just (related to) products you’ve previously looked at. Why?!?
For the same reason that Amazon does that?
To annoy me enough to send me to second-tier retailers I wouldn't otherwise use?
It never makes sense to intentionally return inapplicable search results. Think about it: product search is the ultimate advertising opportunity. A customer with money to spend is proactively telling you exactly what they want to spend it on. And you're going to go out of your way to piss this customer off?!
Bold strategy, Jeff, let's see how it works out for you.
It never makes sense to intentionally return inapplicable search results. Think about it: product search is the ultimate advertising opportunity. A customer with money to spend is proactively telling you exactly what they want to spend it on. And you're going to go out of your way to piss this customer off?!
Bold strategy, Jeff, let's see how it works out for you.
> inapplicable search results
Inapplicable to whom?
> product search is the ultimate advertising opportunity
To me, this is what lends confidence to the idea that the results are hardly "inapplicable". The results may be quite applicable from Amazon's perspective.
This is just a guess, but it seems unlikely that all Amazon cares about is returning the exact perfect set of results that lead you directly to what you're intending to purchase. They may know that showing seemingly random results increases impulse sales of high profit items they have in local "get it today" warehouses. Or they know that people who search for the thing you searched for are n times more likely to buy Product X impulsively, but only if they show it to you on the first Monday morning of the month.
Or maybe they've lost their minds, and have tried to optimize and maximize profits from their recommendations that they're blind to much simpler approaches.
Inapplicable to whom?
> product search is the ultimate advertising opportunity
To me, this is what lends confidence to the idea that the results are hardly "inapplicable". The results may be quite applicable from Amazon's perspective.
This is just a guess, but it seems unlikely that all Amazon cares about is returning the exact perfect set of results that lead you directly to what you're intending to purchase. They may know that showing seemingly random results increases impulse sales of high profit items they have in local "get it today" warehouses. Or they know that people who search for the thing you searched for are n times more likely to buy Product X impulsively, but only if they show it to you on the first Monday morning of the month.
Or maybe they've lost their minds, and have tried to optimize and maximize profits from their recommendations that they're blind to much simpler approaches.
(Shrug) Well, their "applicable" search results cost them a four-figure order yesterday, when I was shopping for parts for a new PC build. It's not the first time I've given up in frustration when looking for something on Amazon.
Then there's the business of repeating the same search in a private browsing window and getting substantially different results. Another great way to flush business down the drain.
Then there's the business of repeating the same search in a private browsing window and getting substantially different results. Another great way to flush business down the drain.
> Furthermore, it is stupidly obvious when something is just being dropshipped vs coming from Amazon's warehouse
The issue isn't so much that you buy something and then the process of shipping from China starts. The issue is that it's often the exact same crap being sold on AliExpress, but has been filtered into the Amazon Warehouse for those SKUs.
The issue isn't so much that you buy something and then the process of shipping from China starts. The issue is that it's often the exact same crap being sold on AliExpress, but has been filtered into the Amazon Warehouse for those SKUs.
Have you ever tried to search for something on Aliexpress? It is the worst experience I have ever had.
Can't possibly be worse than Amazon's search experience.
Can't possibly be worse than Amazon's search experience.
Just bought bunch of humidity meters from AliExpress. At 1/3 of Amazon price. I don’t care they will be delivered on day in February. Amazon’s price was just ridiculous.
I would encourage you to check out electronic component suppliers like digikey.com and others.
I started doing this for my components and won't be going back to Amazon. I switched after getting some counterfeit components, and others so poorly soldered they didn't work.
It will be more expensive than AliExpress, but much less than Amazon and you'll actually get what you order...
I started doing this for my components and won't be going back to Amazon. I switched after getting some counterfeit components, and others so poorly soldered they didn't work.
It will be more expensive than AliExpress, but much less than Amazon and you'll actually get what you order...
DigiKey ... much less than Amazon
You might want to check your DNS settings. I think they may have been hijacked.
You might want to check your DNS settings. I think they may have been hijacked.
Lol, fair enough... But if you're actually interested, I'll provide some examples to show you I'm not just bullshitting.
This is using canadian Amazon and canadian Digikey, since that's where I'm from. We will compare single unit prices, since getting into bulk deals complicates things quite a bit, and is not what most inventors/hobbyists will need.
Since OP was talking about humidity sensors, the only one I'm familar with is DHT11.
On Amazon.ca this comes up as $11.30 CAD. [1] On Digikey this is discontinued but comes up as $7.67.[2] Yet even the Grove branded BOARD is cheaper at $9.37. [3]
Anyways, maybe not the best example since it's ancient and discontinued, was just off the top of my head. Lets look at something more recent like the SHT31-D:
Amazon: $14.69 [4] Digikey: $12.82 [5]
Also you can buy the sensor without the board for like 9$ on digikey. The selection is just way larger.
Out of curiosity though, have you personally used chinese boards on Amazon that are cheaper and generally reliable? If so is there a brand I can search for?
I'm down for cheap reliable chinese stuff (that you don't have to buy for like $50 in packs of 5 - 10 to get a discount...) off Amazon, just haven't been able to find any at all.
[1]: https://www.amazon.ca/Robojax-Temperature-Relative-Humidity-...
[2]: https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/detail/adafruit-industrie...
[3]: https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/detail/seeed-technology-c...
[4]: https://www.amazon.ca/DAOKI-Temperature-Humidity-Interface-G...
[5]: https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/detail/dfrobot/SEN0331/12...
This is using canadian Amazon and canadian Digikey, since that's where I'm from. We will compare single unit prices, since getting into bulk deals complicates things quite a bit, and is not what most inventors/hobbyists will need.
Since OP was talking about humidity sensors, the only one I'm familar with is DHT11.
On Amazon.ca this comes up as $11.30 CAD. [1] On Digikey this is discontinued but comes up as $7.67.[2] Yet even the Grove branded BOARD is cheaper at $9.37. [3]
Anyways, maybe not the best example since it's ancient and discontinued, was just off the top of my head. Lets look at something more recent like the SHT31-D:
Amazon: $14.69 [4] Digikey: $12.82 [5]
Also you can buy the sensor without the board for like 9$ on digikey. The selection is just way larger.
Out of curiosity though, have you personally used chinese boards on Amazon that are cheaper and generally reliable? If so is there a brand I can search for?
I'm down for cheap reliable chinese stuff (that you don't have to buy for like $50 in packs of 5 - 10 to get a discount...) off Amazon, just haven't been able to find any at all.
[1]: https://www.amazon.ca/Robojax-Temperature-Relative-Humidity-...
[2]: https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/detail/adafruit-industrie...
[3]: https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/detail/seeed-technology-c...
[4]: https://www.amazon.ca/DAOKI-Temperature-Humidity-Interface-G...
[5]: https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/detail/dfrobot/SEN0331/12...
I've purchased a bunch of cheap sensors from AliExpress also. Half of them had serious issues. Firmware issues that would knock them off my gateway, or drain their battery completely so I'd have to go change them. And not so fatal issues like the battery that came with them was total junk and couldn't sustain a device for more than a week.
When I spent 2x as much from a US vendor from Amazon, they worked. No messing around. Probably they are built in the same regions, but US designs by US vendors I've had much much better luck with.
I don't buy lots of things from Amazon for fear of fakes. When you're on niche products that nobody cares to duplicate it's much safer.
It's almost comical the supply chain understanding you have to have to make sure you get the right thing.
When I spent 2x as much from a US vendor from Amazon, they worked. No messing around. Probably they are built in the same regions, but US designs by US vendors I've had much much better luck with.
I don't buy lots of things from Amazon for fear of fakes. When you're on niche products that nobody cares to duplicate it's much safer.
It's almost comical the supply chain understanding you have to have to make sure you get the right thing.
How much should things cost? Is price the only thing that matters?
You may be surprised to know that Jeff doesn’t run Amazon anymore.
Agree 100%. And now the majority of the products are made by a 7 digit letter soup brand who just popped up out of no where and likely will be gone in 6 months as the product is shifted to some other brand to avoid bad reviews building up.
I have very little faith in Amazon these days and specifically order from smaller specialty shops regularly again.
I have very little faith in Amazon these days and specifically order from smaller specialty shops regularly again.
For kicks, I just did a search for a fairly generic item on Amazon, "bookshelf". The "brands" in the top results are:
MOYIPIN, Furrino, Hoctieon, Sauder, Rolanstar, Vasagle, Amazon Basics, Homidec, JIUYOTREE, NUMENN, IOTXY, Topfurny, RIIPOO, Homykic, IRONCK.
RIIPOO is definitely my favorite name here.
Amazon Marketplace is inundated with garbage. It gets harder and harder to find a product that I'm willing to actually buy and assume will work. At some point, Amazon's chickens are going to come home to roost and they'll have to deal with this.
MOYIPIN, Furrino, Hoctieon, Sauder, Rolanstar, Vasagle, Amazon Basics, Homidec, JIUYOTREE, NUMENN, IOTXY, Topfurny, RIIPOO, Homykic, IRONCK.
RIIPOO is definitely my favorite name here.
Amazon Marketplace is inundated with garbage. It gets harder and harder to find a product that I'm willing to actually buy and assume will work. At some point, Amazon's chickens are going to come home to roost and they'll have to deal with this.
OTOH I’ve bought from plenty of random name brands and never had a problem with the products.
Looking at these bookshelves a number are particle/pressboard products. Would you trust unknown quality/untested inputs (industrial glues) used to make a product known to outgas into your sealed living environment? For example particle board takes five to 10 years to completely outgas itself of all formaldehyde.
Is there any study showing similar products at the same price point are any better in this regard when bought from in-person stores? IKEA, walmart, Costco, target, etc?
I stopped buying after recieving one too many fake items. Not even listings that were for blatently fabricated products like the 16TB portable hard drives for $45. Just everyday items, being dispatched from Amazon that were clearly fakes.
Amazon doesn't give a damn, so I don't give them my business anymore.
Amazon doesn't give a damn, so I don't give them my business anymore.
Used to use Amazon as my go-to source for bulk gum. Silly, I know, but they stock the big 14-packs that you can only find at massive bulk stores like Costco, and even then, it's hard to find them reliably.
After receiving a number of fakes and problematic items off Amazon a couple of years ago, I instated a new rule: you can order off Amazon as long as the a fake product won't seriously hurt you.
Turns out, whether it's a set of bolts for my bicycle, a battery replacement for a phone, or a piece of gum I plan on chewing in my mouth, I'm really scared of the awful thing that could happen if I got an unsafe fake item. I would rather not chew gum tainted with microplastics, explode a battery in my pocket without warning, or shear a bolt from my bike in the middle of the wilderness miles away from help.
On the other hand, Amazon is a great place to order bulk body soap. Haven't figured out a way for that to kill me yet.
After receiving a number of fakes and problematic items off Amazon a couple of years ago, I instated a new rule: you can order off Amazon as long as the a fake product won't seriously hurt you.
Turns out, whether it's a set of bolts for my bicycle, a battery replacement for a phone, or a piece of gum I plan on chewing in my mouth, I'm really scared of the awful thing that could happen if I got an unsafe fake item. I would rather not chew gum tainted with microplastics, explode a battery in my pocket without warning, or shear a bolt from my bike in the middle of the wilderness miles away from help.
On the other hand, Amazon is a great place to order bulk body soap. Haven't figured out a way for that to kill me yet.
Heavy metal/other contamination? There were a lot of stories about lead contamination years ago in products that made it to store shelves. It stopped happening as often (I think?) but small seller products on amazon, eBay etc face dramatically less scrutiny than those bigger suppliers ever did
Eg, with toys: https://www.insider.com/amazon-selling-toxic-toys-lead-poiso...
Non Amazon example, with clothing https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6193385
Eg, with toys: https://www.insider.com/amazon-selling-toxic-toys-lead-poiso...
Non Amazon example, with clothing https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6193385
You might have a restaurant supplier near you. I dimly recall mine has boxes of candy.
https://www.usfoods.com/why-us-foods/chef-store.html
I now buy all my bulk stuff this way. Rice, beans, spices, flour...
Way cheaper than Amazon, much better selection than Costco, all authentic.
https://www.usfoods.com/why-us-foods/chef-store.html
I now buy all my bulk stuff this way. Rice, beans, spices, flour...
Way cheaper than Amazon, much better selection than Costco, all authentic.
I've been purchasing a lot less from Amazon the past couple of years. But my rule has always been don't buy it from Amazon if it goes in or on your body, clothing excepted.
100% this. I would add that it's also hard to find an item being unique. When I search for let's say "Braun Alarm clock", I get the same item (so I guess? because it looks the same) 8 times. So which one should I buy? What's the difference?
I just can't be bothered to figure out the different sellers/prices/terms/delivery times etc for such a simple thing.
How do I know if one of the 8 Braun clocks that look the same has some 'extra feature'? So I got to read all descriptions which can be vastly different and hard to compare. This isn't easy and reliable ecommerce anymore. It's messy and frankly if I have to do all this research WITHIN Amazon I might as well extend the scope and do it OUTSIDE of Amazon as well.
How do I know if one of the 8 Braun clocks that look the same has some 'extra feature'? So I got to read all descriptions which can be vastly different and hard to compare. This isn't easy and reliable ecommerce anymore. It's messy and frankly if I have to do all this research WITHIN Amazon I might as well extend the scope and do it OUTSIDE of Amazon as well.
This is a great point. For years, Amazon had good quality and prices. Now, shopping on Amazon you have to actively look out for scammy items and search for the good deals. Very easy to get fooled. “Verified purchases” don’t mean much either
Each customer feels differently, but to me what makes Amazon the go-to solution for most consumerist problems is it's logistics network, and how fast and reliable it became.
There were a couple of times where the time I had to wait between clicking "buy" and receiving the package on my doorstep was not measured in days but hours.
Amazon's logistics network has improved constantly. The shopping experience is getting better, not worse.
Sure, sometimes I can't spot the difference between Amazon and AliExpress. So many cheap, shady products with autogenerated brand names and obviously all from the same factory. Low quality stuff whose seller is eager to bribe you to not get a bad review after you return the item. Yes, that's a problem. But if you stick with Amazon-managed products you always get refunds.
And you know what? You also can decide to not go for the cheap stuff and buy things from reputable sellers.
So knock-offs are a problem but you can actually avoid those, and the ones you didn't you can always return them. And with Amazon's logistics, things get resolved in a few days.
It's a shame about exploiting every single worker though.
There were a couple of times where the time I had to wait between clicking "buy" and receiving the package on my doorstep was not measured in days but hours.
Amazon's logistics network has improved constantly. The shopping experience is getting better, not worse.
Sure, sometimes I can't spot the difference between Amazon and AliExpress. So many cheap, shady products with autogenerated brand names and obviously all from the same factory. Low quality stuff whose seller is eager to bribe you to not get a bad review after you return the item. Yes, that's a problem. But if you stick with Amazon-managed products you always get refunds.
And you know what? You also can decide to not go for the cheap stuff and buy things from reputable sellers.
So knock-offs are a problem but you can actually avoid those, and the ones you didn't you can always return them. And with Amazon's logistics, things get resolved in a few days.
It's a shame about exploiting every single worker though.
> So knock-offs are a problem but you can actually avoid those
I do wish that was easier though. Sometimes I add 'but not crap from nonsense brand' to my search, hoping someone will notice.
Some ideas: verified list for the brands filter (often it's some bizarre subset anyway, and there are clearly genuine respected names missing?), search that respects literal quotes and not/-, price sort/filter that isn't comically wrong and that operates on Amazon price only or else includes shipping.
Ideally (I know Amazon would never do this, seller-hostile) just roll up all the duplicates into one, so the 'from' price is the cheapest seller from all sellers of the supposedly different products, and the results list is much cleaner.
I suppose an extension could fairly easily have some heuristics (all-caps 4-6 letter brand name) to hide these results. Sometimes I do want them, and then could just toggle the extension off. Is there anything like that?
I do wish that was easier though. Sometimes I add 'but not crap from nonsense brand' to my search, hoping someone will notice.
Some ideas: verified list for the brands filter (often it's some bizarre subset anyway, and there are clearly genuine respected names missing?), search that respects literal quotes and not/-, price sort/filter that isn't comically wrong and that operates on Amazon price only or else includes shipping.
Ideally (I know Amazon would never do this, seller-hostile) just roll up all the duplicates into one, so the 'from' price is the cheapest seller from all sellers of the supposedly different products, and the results list is much cleaner.
I suppose an extension could fairly easily have some heuristics (all-caps 4-6 letter brand name) to hide these results. Sometimes I do want them, and then could just toggle the extension off. Is there anything like that?
> Amazon's logistics network has improved constantly.
So you can get crap delivered faster?
> The shopping experience is getting better, not worse.
My experience is exactly the opposite. Amazon is one of the worst online shopping experiences I've encountered. It wasn't always that way -- I happily shopped with them for almost two decades before I finally had to give them up.
I honestly can't think of a single advantage Amazon has over just ordering directly from the companies whose products I want to buy.
So you can get crap delivered faster?
> The shopping experience is getting better, not worse.
My experience is exactly the opposite. Amazon is one of the worst online shopping experiences I've encountered. It wasn't always that way -- I happily shopped with them for almost two decades before I finally had to give them up.
I honestly can't think of a single advantage Amazon has over just ordering directly from the companies whose products I want to buy.
> I honestly can't think of a single advantage Amazon has over just ordering directly from the companies whose products I want to buy.
This is what I do when I can, and for the same reasons you described.
However, doing so has made the most significant difference between buying from Amazon compared to buying direct crystal clear: it's rare that Amazon can't get it to me overnight for a cheaper price than buying direct.
But, like you said, all that means is that they can ship me the wrong thing, or a counterfeit thing, or a lead-laden craptastic-thing, just as fast as the correct thing.
I look at it this way - while it takes longer to get here, and shipping is rarely free, it still saves me time and money in the long term to buy direct when I can. It also helps directly support the people I'm buying direct from, and that matters to me more than the time and money savings Amazon makes you think they provide.
This is what I do when I can, and for the same reasons you described.
However, doing so has made the most significant difference between buying from Amazon compared to buying direct crystal clear: it's rare that Amazon can't get it to me overnight for a cheaper price than buying direct.
But, like you said, all that means is that they can ship me the wrong thing, or a counterfeit thing, or a lead-laden craptastic-thing, just as fast as the correct thing.
I look at it this way - while it takes longer to get here, and shipping is rarely free, it still saves me time and money in the long term to buy direct when I can. It also helps directly support the people I'm buying direct from, and that matters to me more than the time and money savings Amazon makes you think they provide.
> So you can get crap delivered faster?
I don't know what your personal tastes are, but personally I prefer buying good things. If instead you prefer to look for crap and order crap then why are you complaining you search for and ordered and bought crap?
I mean, you have a say in what things you pick for yourself, don't you? Why are you complaining you buy crap when you intended to buy crap?
It boggles the mind how some people try to pin on a store their personal responsibility of deciding what stuff they purchase.
I don't know what your personal tastes are, but personally I prefer buying good things. If instead you prefer to look for crap and order crap then why are you complaining you search for and ordered and bought crap?
I mean, you have a say in what things you pick for yourself, don't you? Why are you complaining you buy crap when you intended to buy crap?
It boggles the mind how some people try to pin on a store their personal responsibility of deciding what stuff they purchase.
The point is that on Amazon, it's incredibly easy to order crap without knowing it's crap. If I order something that I know is going to be crap (it's obviously so from the listing, or is too inexpensive, etc.), I'm doing that knowing what I'm getting. That's not what I'm talking about here.
In order to avoid getting junk from Amazon, you have to be extremely cautious and do a lot of extra work. If I have to do that anyway, there's no reason to use Amazon.
In order to avoid getting junk from Amazon, you have to be extremely cautious and do a lot of extra work. If I have to do that anyway, there's no reason to use Amazon.
Some neighborhoods (where opinion-makers live) are getting fast shipping, for the rest of us Amazon seems to have the worst logistics network
https://www.rather-be-shopping.com/blog/amazon-no-longer-off...
In the same time frame every other retailer thinks they can win me over through service, AMZN increasingly thinks I will keep subscribing to Prime since I've subscribed to Prime since 2006.
As it is you'll hear Jim Cramer and David Brooks talk about how fast Amazon shipping is and you'll never see it be a joke on a sitcom that Amazon deliveries are late, but for the rest of us it is quicker to wait to the weekend and drive to the store. I wonder if my Congressman thinks I get shipping from AMZN as fast as he gets in D.C.
https://www.rather-be-shopping.com/blog/amazon-no-longer-off...
In the same time frame every other retailer thinks they can win me over through service, AMZN increasingly thinks I will keep subscribing to Prime since I've subscribed to Prime since 2006.
As it is you'll hear Jim Cramer and David Brooks talk about how fast Amazon shipping is and you'll never see it be a joke on a sitcom that Amazon deliveries are late, but for the rest of us it is quicker to wait to the weekend and drive to the store. I wonder if my Congressman thinks I get shipping from AMZN as fast as he gets in D.C.
> Some neighborhoods (where opinion-makers live) are getting fast shipping, for the rest of us Amazon seems to have the worst logistics network
I'm not sure that's a reasonable take, and it reads like a gratuitous putdown.
Where you live matters, and an urban center next to a local distribution center will always have better service than a rural area where barely anyone lives. It is absurd to use areas with bad coverage to complain that the whole service is bad, specially when you add the regrettably conspiratorial excuse that only influencers get a reasonable service.
The truth of the matter, that even your comment with an axe to grind admits, is that Amazon does indeed provide fast shipping services in some areas. These areas are naturally urban centers where a lot of people live per square meter, which means large numbers of people in that area benefit from fast delivery services. It's like economies of scale apply. In some other regions with small markets and residual demand, Amazon even falls back to standard postal service. Is this supposed to mean that the company provides a poor service. Well, no.
The truth of the matter is that Amazon has been growing it's distribution network, and it shows in it's quality of service. Those of us who live in urban centers that benefitted from these investments are privileged to have access to overnight delivery and some times even same-day delivery. Others who might be stuck living in an area with poor coverage don't. Nevertheless, this does not mean that the service got worse.
I'm not sure that's a reasonable take, and it reads like a gratuitous putdown.
Where you live matters, and an urban center next to a local distribution center will always have better service than a rural area where barely anyone lives. It is absurd to use areas with bad coverage to complain that the whole service is bad, specially when you add the regrettably conspiratorial excuse that only influencers get a reasonable service.
The truth of the matter, that even your comment with an axe to grind admits, is that Amazon does indeed provide fast shipping services in some areas. These areas are naturally urban centers where a lot of people live per square meter, which means large numbers of people in that area benefit from fast delivery services. It's like economies of scale apply. In some other regions with small markets and residual demand, Amazon even falls back to standard postal service. Is this supposed to mean that the company provides a poor service. Well, no.
The truth of the matter is that Amazon has been growing it's distribution network, and it shows in it's quality of service. Those of us who live in urban centers that benefitted from these investments are privileged to have access to overnight delivery and some times even same-day delivery. Others who might be stuck living in an area with poor coverage don't. Nevertheless, this does not mean that the service got worse.
Free shipping is a tax on people who live in densely populated areas, much like the more obvious tax such people pay to provide those living in sparsely populated areas USPS services.
If there’s anything Congress needs to look into, it should be the massive transfer of wealth from densely populated areas to sparsely populated ones thanks to “free” shipping.
If there’s anything Congress needs to look into, it should be the massive transfer of wealth from densely populated areas to sparsely populated ones thanks to “free” shipping.
I've lived in 3 cities recently. 2 day shipping every time for years.
"Amazon's logistics network has improved constantly. The shopping experience is getting better, not worse."
WHAT???? Prime no longer delivers in 2-3 days. The reviews are junk, the search words are gamed, the production information metadata is junk, the quality is terrible, the search results are all placed/gamed.
Things I have to do on Amazon's site that I didn't have to once upon a time:
1) immediately go to the second or third page of results to eliminate paid placement
2) immediately filter reviews by 4 star reviews to eliminate fake ads
3) cross-search the product on other sites to get a sense of legitimacy of the source
4) very carefully examine the photos of it and similar products from the company to gauge a sense of how legitimate their engineering is overall
It's exhausting. I only use Amazon for weirdo products now, but Walmart and NewEgg are steadily eating into their selection advantage. For any tech product I 100% prefer to order from NewEgg over Amazon, even if it is slower and slightly cheaper.
You know what Amazon is good for? Find the bare minimum engineering on products, and then try to find the slightly better engineered ones elsewhere for comparison. Amazon has the scrape-the-barrel quality, then you can see why the products at Walmart or Target are worth it or not.
Even then, I know they are a horrible company to their employees, predatory, arrogant, etc.
If anyone thinks Amazon represents some vanguard of good online retail, they are astroturfing or have no real historical basis of understanding.
Any logistics improvements of the last 5 years have been to expand their monopoly and "shareholder value". Delivery is worse now. Their abuse of delivery workers means you can't get a package reliably delivered in an urban area, they don't have time for delivery instructions.
"The missing chair is for the Customer". Yeah uh no.
WHAT???? Prime no longer delivers in 2-3 days. The reviews are junk, the search words are gamed, the production information metadata is junk, the quality is terrible, the search results are all placed/gamed.
Things I have to do on Amazon's site that I didn't have to once upon a time:
1) immediately go to the second or third page of results to eliminate paid placement
2) immediately filter reviews by 4 star reviews to eliminate fake ads
3) cross-search the product on other sites to get a sense of legitimacy of the source
4) very carefully examine the photos of it and similar products from the company to gauge a sense of how legitimate their engineering is overall
It's exhausting. I only use Amazon for weirdo products now, but Walmart and NewEgg are steadily eating into their selection advantage. For any tech product I 100% prefer to order from NewEgg over Amazon, even if it is slower and slightly cheaper.
You know what Amazon is good for? Find the bare minimum engineering on products, and then try to find the slightly better engineered ones elsewhere for comparison. Amazon has the scrape-the-barrel quality, then you can see why the products at Walmart or Target are worth it or not.
Even then, I know they are a horrible company to their employees, predatory, arrogant, etc.
If anyone thinks Amazon represents some vanguard of good online retail, they are astroturfing or have no real historical basis of understanding.
Any logistics improvements of the last 5 years have been to expand their monopoly and "shareholder value". Delivery is worse now. Their abuse of delivery workers means you can't get a package reliably delivered in an urban area, they don't have time for delivery instructions.
"The missing chair is for the Customer". Yeah uh no.
It's not unusual at all to find something on the shelves of Target for $40 that Amazon wants $70 for.
> So knock-offs are a problem but you can actually avoid those,
How? They commingle inventory, and there might not be a perceivable difference based on appearance, so who knows if the internals or quality of materials is the same until it fails?
How? They commingle inventory, and there might not be a perceivable difference based on appearance, so who knows if the internals or quality of materials is the same until it fails?
> How?
Stick with official stores from reputable brands. Don't order shit from sellers like GoldenRandomBrand24723. Don't buy shit from shady stores with 10 reviews. Don't buy shit from stores whose pricing model is based on charging high shipping fees and low prices. Don't buy shit you can't return.
Basically, don't do deals where you know upfront the odds you'll be screwed without any recourse is high.
Online stores sell products, but you need to get your head sorted out and do the thinking.
Stick with official stores from reputable brands. Don't order shit from sellers like GoldenRandomBrand24723. Don't buy shit from shady stores with 10 reviews. Don't buy shit from stores whose pricing model is based on charging high shipping fees and low prices. Don't buy shit you can't return.
Basically, don't do deals where you know upfront the odds you'll be screwed without any recourse is high.
Online stores sell products, but you need to get your head sorted out and do the thinking.
Amazon makes it harder and harder to do this, de-emphasising the seller in listings. I used to be able to confidently "buy it now" from the search results page but I'd never do that now.
The fact that the answer is "look through all the reviews to see if they're shady, check the seller, check the sellers reviews" is an absolute product failure by Amazon. I shouldn't have to do scam research to buy a toothbrush.
The fact that the answer is "look through all the reviews to see if they're shady, check the seller, check the sellers reviews" is an absolute product failure by Amazon. I shouldn't have to do scam research to buy a toothbrush.
> Amazon makes it harder and harder to do this, de-emphasising the seller in listings.
You make me suspect I might be using Amazon wrong. Amazon's search is notoriously bad, but if you know what you want them you can go there and buy it. Just don't do stupid things like buying a 20 dollar item whose cost is 1 dollar price with a 19 dollar shipping fee, or buying weird things from shady sellers who just dropped by out of nowhere.
But that's just me. Perhaps I'm using it wrong. Who knows.
You make me suspect I might be using Amazon wrong. Amazon's search is notoriously bad, but if you know what you want them you can go there and buy it. Just don't do stupid things like buying a 20 dollar item whose cost is 1 dollar price with a 19 dollar shipping fee, or buying weird things from shady sellers who just dropped by out of nowhere.
But that's just me. Perhaps I'm using it wrong. Who knows.
An example, just because this is exactly what happened to me recently. Looking for Oral B replacement toothbrush heads. A bunch of bargain off brand alternatives pop up, yeah, I'm skipping right over them for something going inside my mouth. The second non-sponsored result is:
"Genuine Original Oral-B Braun Precision Clean Replacement Rechargeable Toothbrush Heads..."
$31 for a ten pack. Seems probably about right? But when I click through the full title is:
"Genuine Original Oral-B Braun Precision Clean Replacement Rechargeable Toothbrush Heads (10 Count) - International Version, German Packaging"
and it's sold by "Wiki Deals". The photos show a package with English labelling, for what it's worth. So I guess these have been imported somehow? Are they legit? What does that mean for FDA approval, I wonder? I don't want to have to consider these things.
By contrast when I search Target, the first result (including any promoted stuff):
Oral-B Sensitive Gum Care Electric Toothbrush Replacement Brush Head
It's a three pack, $21, sold by Target themselves. More and more I'm just going to Target in the first instance and skipping Amazon entirely.
"Genuine Original Oral-B Braun Precision Clean Replacement Rechargeable Toothbrush Heads..."
$31 for a ten pack. Seems probably about right? But when I click through the full title is:
"Genuine Original Oral-B Braun Precision Clean Replacement Rechargeable Toothbrush Heads (10 Count) - International Version, German Packaging"
and it's sold by "Wiki Deals". The photos show a package with English labelling, for what it's worth. So I guess these have been imported somehow? Are they legit? What does that mean for FDA approval, I wonder? I don't want to have to consider these things.
By contrast when I search Target, the first result (including any promoted stuff):
Oral-B Sensitive Gum Care Electric Toothbrush Replacement Brush Head
It's a three pack, $21, sold by Target themselves. More and more I'm just going to Target in the first instance and skipping Amazon entirely.
What use is all that filtering if inventory is commingled?
That doesn't work when they comingle inventory. I got a counterfeit SanDisk microSD card from Amazon as the seller. They did refund obviously but it's still a hassle. Now I ironically only buy smaller brands that ONLY have themselves as seller and have had better luck getting real cards.
You say that like it's easy. It's not. It's a lot of effort. It's much easier to simply not use Amazon.
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I'm the exact same way. We now order a lot from Target. It's not like it's a world-beating service but the site is good, the app is good, deliveries and on time and I have the ability to place a pickup order from a location near me.
We even decided to splash out on the $100 a year same-day delivery service. We get more value from that than our Prime membership. Even as a family that watches plenty of TV there's really one only show or so a year we watch on Prime.
We even decided to splash out on the $100 a year same-day delivery service. We get more value from that than our Prime membership. Even as a family that watches plenty of TV there's really one only show or so a year we watch on Prime.
Target is starting to become scammy itself. The top search results for a lot of things I’ve shopped for lately have been questionable-looking products from their third-party sellers.
I've cross shopped Amazon, Target, and Walmart from time to time. It's literally the same products from the same third-party sellers for the same prices.
Same, switched to Walmart+ and can get as good shipping and also local groceries
Also switched to Walmart+, and will never look back.
After Amazon decided that the way the webstore would make money is not by selling things, but instead by selling ads - the quality of search and overall usability of the webstore has become terrible.
You need to use it longer (thus see more ads) to find what you want.
This is part of the plan.
After Amazon decided that the way the webstore would make money is not by selling things, but instead by selling ads - the quality of search and overall usability of the webstore has become terrible.
You need to use it longer (thus see more ads) to find what you want.
This is part of the plan.
And you can search for items by the "In-store" filter, which has guaranteed supply logistics sold and shipped by Walmart to avoid danger and fakery. At least I don't think Walmart comingles "their own" inventory with marketplace inventory items of the same SKU.
Yep - I always choose "Walmart" as the retailer or I am doing in-store shopping with delivery. Never had a problem with fake merchandise like on Amazon.
I once got a note with the product that I'd get could get it refunded if I left a 5 star review. I mentioned that in the review, and guess what? It got rejected, as "that fact wasn't about the item" or something like that.
It's not only that they don't care, they seem to know and and take action in protecting the fake reviews.
It's not only that they don't care, they seem to know and and take action in protecting the fake reviews.
Couple years ago I bought a camera from Amazon. What arrived what a beat up, very used camera in a box that was falling apart with parts missing. I returned it (thankfully that part was easy, but what a waste of time). Left a review saying they are shipping used stuff in place of new and that review was also blocked.
So yes, the reviews don't mean anything since they remove everything they don't like people to know.
So yes, the reviews don't mean anything since they remove everything they don't like people to know.
Agreed.
It is increasingly difficult to find items on Amazon that aren't from drop-shippers. Items from companies with call signs will rank higher than legit products, and it's annoying as hell.
Additionally, it is becoming easier to buy from retailers directly and return things when they don't work out.
Example. I like barefoot shoes. I only buy Vivobarefoot. In the past, searching for Vivobarefoots or even Merrell Vapor Gloves while logged into my Prime account would return crap from WHITIN as a cheaper alternative. Even though I tried Whitin and returned them because cheap shoes are cheap for a reason.
Same thing with merino wool stuff. Meriwool and call sign dropshipper bullshit will rank higher even if I look for stuff from Woolly (and definitely if I look for stuff from a supplier that doesn't partner with Amazon, like Wool and Prince).
It is increasingly difficult to find items on Amazon that aren't from drop-shippers. Items from companies with call signs will rank higher than legit products, and it's annoying as hell.
Additionally, it is becoming easier to buy from retailers directly and return things when they don't work out.
Example. I like barefoot shoes. I only buy Vivobarefoot. In the past, searching for Vivobarefoots or even Merrell Vapor Gloves while logged into my Prime account would return crap from WHITIN as a cheaper alternative. Even though I tried Whitin and returned them because cheap shoes are cheap for a reason.
Same thing with merino wool stuff. Meriwool and call sign dropshipper bullshit will rank higher even if I look for stuff from Woolly (and definitely if I look for stuff from a supplier that doesn't partner with Amazon, like Wool and Prince).
Amazon is excellent for books. A category it maintains a genuine, unique advantage in (Amazon prints books and generally speaking does many different extra operations in that market.)
One notable part of Amazon's success story: book readers are rich. Paper books are a significant indicator of genuine wealth.
What's unique about books however, is that you never discover what to buy on Amazon.
You get the title recommended to you off-Amazon. Then go straight to Amazon and find the title, in a commoditised print on demand operation.
For just about every other product under the sun, not the same.
One notable part of Amazon's success story: book readers are rich. Paper books are a significant indicator of genuine wealth.
What's unique about books however, is that you never discover what to buy on Amazon.
You get the title recommended to you off-Amazon. Then go straight to Amazon and find the title, in a commoditised print on demand operation.
For just about every other product under the sun, not the same.
Interesting. It is possible I was lucky on items 9 times out of 10. What I seem to be having issue with is timely delivery on items since Covid despite having Prime. I was more strict about it before, but I made a dispensation for Covid since I didn't order that much anymore. FWIW, I am in Chicagoland, which has a hub that is close enough to me so I will admit that the whole situation baffles me sometimes, but I don't know what is really happening behind the scenes..
I’ve gotten upwards of $50 to leave fake reviews. For a while every Chinese product had a card in it you could email to make some serious cash.
I hope you mean you were offered money for fake reviews, but declined.
To be fair I don't think that's the fault of Amazon I think that's the same thing with all new tech adoption - especially over the last couple of decades. As new tech enabled new capabilities people were honest and scammers didn't know how to manipulate the system. Nowadays its a lot of work and money to block to fake reviews/fake products.
This goes for all tech --> social media, financial processing etc.
I agree it really does ruin it but I think it's pervasive in tech 20-30 years into the internet/tech adoption into our lives. And now when new tech pops up scammers hop aboard immediately.
This goes for all tech --> social media, financial processing etc.
I agree it really does ruin it but I think it's pervasive in tech 20-30 years into the internet/tech adoption into our lives. And now when new tech pops up scammers hop aboard immediately.
Amazon has actively supported selling counterfeit items for years.
Allowing companies to take over product pages with lots of positive reviews is actively misleading. If they actually cared then new product = remove all old review.
Mixing inventory between different sellers actively drives away reputable business. You can ship a box of legit items to Amazon and they send a counterfeit item to your customer who then dings your reputation. That’s crazy.
Allowing companies to take over product pages with lots of positive reviews is actively misleading. If they actually cared then new product = remove all old review.
Mixing inventory between different sellers actively drives away reputable business. You can ship a box of legit items to Amazon and they send a counterfeit item to your customer who then dings your reputation. That’s crazy.
I should be clear here - I'm not saying Amazon has done a good job. My point is the scammers are going to scam. I've been offered money in exchange for an implicitly good review. I didn't take it but that came with the order of something I bought. That kind of thing is tough to regulate for any company - and there are millions of other ways to do it.
If theres a way to game a system humans will find it.
If theres a way to game a system humans will find it.
Sure, but my point is Amazon is acting like an accomplice not a victim.
Fair take - my original comment deflects blame of Amazon which isn't appropriate. It is responsible - however it isn't wholly responsible for all the scamming nature on it's platform.
Maybe the VC playbook obsession about growth>profit>quality that they sold to wall st in the 2010s has a fair bit to drive the internal engine at Amazon.
Maybe the VC playbook obsession about growth>profit>quality that they sold to wall st in the 2010s has a fair bit to drive the internal engine at Amazon.
From my point of view, I don't care if Amazon is responsible or not. It remains true that Amazon provides a terrible service. The "why" is their problem, not mine.
I cancelled prime a few year ago and haven't looked back. Amazon has basically turned into a flea market chock full of counterfeit goods, goods of questionable origin, and a relentless "review optimization" schemes under the hood.
Recently my mother threw out a bunch of Christmas decorations because "they gave up the ghost". What had actually happened is she got counterfeit energizer batteries from amazon (which had 5-star reviews ofc). This story is not that big of a deal, but perfectly emblematic of the mess that is Amazon's store and hardly the only bad experience I have had with the junk they sell there.
Also this has been going on for years now and amazon has done _nothing_ to address it. I suppose it's because people keep voting with their dollars for them to do nothing. Maybe now they'll start to think about it.
Recently my mother threw out a bunch of Christmas decorations because "they gave up the ghost". What had actually happened is she got counterfeit energizer batteries from amazon (which had 5-star reviews ofc). This story is not that big of a deal, but perfectly emblematic of the mess that is Amazon's store and hardly the only bad experience I have had with the junk they sell there.
Also this has been going on for years now and amazon has done _nothing_ to address it. I suppose it's because people keep voting with their dollars for them to do nothing. Maybe now they'll start to think about it.
> Also this has been going on for years now and amazon has done _nothing_ to address it.
Even worse, I think Amazon has done tons to address it, but they just can't keep up with the evolving garbage.
Or as the Red Queen said in Alice in Wonderland, "it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place."
Even worse, I think Amazon has done tons to address it, but they just can't keep up with the evolving garbage.
Or as the Red Queen said in Alice in Wonderland, "it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place."
Amazon’s fees are so high, and sellers pay it a massive amount of money on every return (something Amazon encourages by encouraging people to buy products they don’t need), which means that legitimate businesses find it extremely hard to survive.
It’s no wonder Amazon is filled with illegitimate businesses because they are the only ones that can survive Amazon’s punitive terms of operation.
It’s no wonder Amazon is filled with illegitimate businesses because they are the only ones that can survive Amazon’s punitive terms of operation.
There are certain categories you can basically guarantee to get fakes.
Brand name batteries is one of them, I guess that's one more thing pushing people towards "Amazon Basics", it's the only one that's not going to be counterfeit.
Brand name batteries is one of them, I guess that's one more thing pushing people towards "Amazon Basics", it's the only one that's not going to be counterfeit.
Amazon has historically said that they don't care about their stock price.
The losses in question are a mark-to-market loss on Rivian. If you look at their operational numbers they're mostly fine.
That's the problem with the lack of financial literacy. Is the loss a paper loss or a hard dollar loss? On a hard dollar basis amazon is doing great, for the most part. Most people don't know the difference, and most reporters for some odd reason don't either.
They'll use this "loss" to talk about how the end is nigh, etc. But that's really bullshit. The end isn't near for amazon.
The losses in question are a mark-to-market loss on Rivian. If you look at their operational numbers they're mostly fine.
That's the problem with the lack of financial literacy. Is the loss a paper loss or a hard dollar loss? On a hard dollar basis amazon is doing great, for the most part. Most people don't know the difference, and most reporters for some odd reason don't either.
They'll use this "loss" to talk about how the end is nigh, etc. But that's really bullshit. The end isn't near for amazon.
No one is claiming the end is near for Amazon. That's a strawman. But it's clear from the earnings release that the business is experiencing strong headwinds in multiple areas of the empire. Amazon closed out its slowest year of growth in its quarter century as a public company.
And Amazon does care about the stock price. If they didn't, they wouldn't issue guidance to Wall St analysts every quarter about expected revs and earnings. Not all big tech companies issue guidance. Apple stopped doing it several years ago. Google has never issued guidance. Maybe Amazon didn't care about the stock price a decade ago, but that's definitely not the case now.
And Amazon does care about the stock price. If they didn't, they wouldn't issue guidance to Wall St analysts every quarter about expected revs and earnings. Not all big tech companies issue guidance. Apple stopped doing it several years ago. Google has never issued guidance. Maybe Amazon didn't care about the stock price a decade ago, but that's definitely not the case now.
I suppose you haven't been reading the normal press.
AWS specifically reported 20% YoY revenue growth, which is the lowest it's ever been since they started reporting the numbers publicly.
Teams at every single AWS customer, big and small, have probably spent the last quarter finding and ending wasteful, forgotten spend lurking in their cloud footprint in a desperate attempt to prove to their MBAs that they shouldn't be in the next round of layoffs because they just saved the company 10x their salary in cloud spend.
I know I have.
I know I have.
> they just saved the company 10x their salary in cloud spend.
Great. Thanks for doing that. Now that we have got our cloud costs manageable, the next biggest expense is people!
What did you say you did again? Oh, you're our cloud cost reduction guy? I don't think we need your skills anymore, that's not a problem anymore.
Great. Thanks for doing that. Now that we have got our cloud costs manageable, the next biggest expense is people!
What did you say you did again? Oh, you're our cloud cost reduction guy? I don't think we need your skills anymore, that's not a problem anymore.
> Oh, you're our cloud cost reduction guy? I don't think we need your skills anymore, that's not a problem anymore.
That's a somewhat cynical view, but I'm sure there are plenty of other MBAs looking for people with proven experience cutting cloud costs.
That's a somewhat cynical view, but I'm sure there are plenty of other MBAs looking for people with proven experience cutting cloud costs.
I know how you can cut cloud costs. It doesn't involve the big4 cloud.
I've had that thought too, but I'm playing a tactical game rather than a strategic one at this point. The name of the game is to survive the next few quarters. Also, there is a team whose job /is/ cloud cost reduction but all they ever seem to do is spend /more/ on enormously huge Glue jobs, Athena queries, etc.
The snake eats its own tail? This is why layoffs are imprecise, everyone starts pointing fingers. If the cloud cost reduction team only ever increased costs for 2-3 years... then there is a leadership problem for letting it continue. Otherwise the cloud cost reduction team probably was doing something else for leadership.
Not pointing fingers (it's not my money they're spending keeping the other team in business), just saying that if the logic is "actually, our cloud spend looks better than ever, maybe we can lay off the people whose job it is to do that?" then they are not looking at me because I have a different title. My big saves are all in the category of "I was in there anyway and noticed that X was enabled. Do we need that on?" so I look like a thoughtful engineer who is alert for waste.
Anyway all of this is a bit of a joke obviously. I know that layoff decisions aren't going to be made based on looking at individual people, or even teams. Still, it can't really hurt me to save my employer money (as long as it isn't my own salary, or my colleagues' salary), especially in a tough macro environment.
Perhaps I'm even saving some significant amount of emissions and therefore marginally delaying the end of all human life, or marginally reducing demand for energy at a time when it's tight. Thousands of engineers doing the same all at once can probably significantly hurt the hyperscalers' business though.
Anyway all of this is a bit of a joke obviously. I know that layoff decisions aren't going to be made based on looking at individual people, or even teams. Still, it can't really hurt me to save my employer money (as long as it isn't my own salary, or my colleagues' salary), especially in a tough macro environment.
Perhaps I'm even saving some significant amount of emissions and therefore marginally delaying the end of all human life, or marginally reducing demand for energy at a time when it's tight. Thousands of engineers doing the same all at once can probably significantly hurt the hyperscalers' business though.
This, except it's the MBA+5 talking to the MBA+2
> Teams at every single AWS customer, big and small, have probably spent the last quarter finding and ending wasteful, forgotten spend lurking in their cloud footprint
The interesting thing about cloud costs for companies like Amazon or AWS is that in the short term it's only an accounting trick. The company is not spending money if there's a lambda deployed somewhere, or a EC3 instance idling. It's nice to erode revenue in the books from these expenses, but it's not like Besos needs to reach out of his wallet to cover the cost of a container launched by some random team at Amazon. At most he moves the cash from one pocket to the other and there's that.
The interesting thing about cloud costs for companies like Amazon or AWS is that in the short term it's only an accounting trick. The company is not spending money if there's a lambda deployed somewhere, or a EC3 instance idling. It's nice to erode revenue in the books from these expenses, but it's not like Besos needs to reach out of his wallet to cover the cost of a container launched by some random team at Amazon. At most he moves the cash from one pocket to the other and there's that.
Well, they don't need to spend money to schedule my Lambda, but they did already spend a bunch of money building out the datacenter so they can pick up my 100th of a nickel when they do schedule it.
AWS is kind of like a bank, making money on the spread between the cost of compute at different time scales. They can get cheap compute (by committing to owning datacenters and filling them with silicon) and sell expensive compute by letting customers buy it by the second. This is a great business if the demand for per-second compute is always rising, but it isn't if all your customers suddenly take you up on it all at once and start spending drastically less but your huge datacenter investment is still illiquid.
AWS is kind of like a bank, making money on the spread between the cost of compute at different time scales. They can get cheap compute (by committing to owning datacenters and filling them with silicon) and sell expensive compute by letting customers buy it by the second. This is a great business if the demand for per-second compute is always rising, but it isn't if all your customers suddenly take you up on it all at once and start spending drastically less but your huge datacenter investment is still illiquid.
> Well, they don't need to spend money to schedule my Lambda, but they did already spend a bunch of money building out the datacenter so they can pick up my 100th of a nickel when they do schedule it.
A projected revenue drop is not the same as a loss though. You already bought that computer.
Less so if it's your own company who was using their stuff.
Worst case scenario: they have stuff idling and more headroom to accommodate demand.
Heck, why waste more money building yet another data center if the ones already in place have already plenty of cycles rand bandwidth to spare?
It's all an accounting trick. You don't waste more power. You don't have to but more hardware. Turning off your lambda saves nothing.
A projected revenue drop is not the same as a loss though. You already bought that computer.
Less so if it's your own company who was using their stuff.
Worst case scenario: they have stuff idling and more headroom to accommodate demand.
Heck, why waste more money building yet another data center if the ones already in place have already plenty of cycles rand bandwidth to spare?
It's all an accounting trick. You don't waste more power. You don't have to but more hardware. Turning off your lambda saves nothing.
You're right that it's probably not that a big deal for Amazon since it's all mainly financed by their own cash flow, but in general it can be a problem if there is debt (that you took out to build the datacenters) to service. Also, those servers are depreciating (in the literal sense of becoming less valuable over time, not in the accounting sense of spreading their cost out over several fiscal years for tax purposes) while still not making them any money, so the "lifetime earnings" of their existing silicon will be less than they would otherwise have been without a slowdown.
I'm not sure what the "accounting trick" is though, except in the sense that anything involving money or finance is an accounting trick. Can you elaborate?
I'm not sure what the "accounting trick" is though, except in the sense that anything involving money or finance is an accounting trick. Can you elaborate?
Yep we did the same. Saved about 10k/mo by clearing out old junk we dont need anymore and consolodating things.
I don't understand why this is considered anything other than normal. It's not possible for companies to continue growing forever and it's innevitable that growth will start to slow as the company matures.
I was on a student Prime subscription and forgot about it since 2015.
Mid 2022 they emailed me to let me know that I need to pay the full price or lose my Prime access. They gave me a moment and enough friction to think about my subscription and I ended-up deciding that it wasn't worth it.
I would have probably spent close to 1k on Amazon in that period, but instead it went to local/alternative shops.
I feel the same about the friction Netflix is introducing with their IP address check, it will be enough friction for people to start asking "do i really need this?"
Mid 2022 they emailed me to let me know that I need to pay the full price or lose my Prime access. They gave me a moment and enough friction to think about my subscription and I ended-up deciding that it wasn't worth it.
I would have probably spent close to 1k on Amazon in that period, but instead it went to local/alternative shops.
I feel the same about the friction Netflix is introducing with their IP address check, it will be enough friction for people to start asking "do i really need this?"
> I would have probably spent close to 1k on Amazon in that period, but instead it went to local/alternative shops.
I don't see the direct relation to Prime. Above a threshold of about 25 euro shipping is free, and otherwise it is often free or not too expensive.
I don't see the direct relation to Prime. Above a threshold of about 25 euro shipping is free, and otherwise it is often free or not too expensive.
It dawns on me now that perhaps every market and every community is fated to suffer some variation of the Eternal September effect at some certain critical point of capturing majority market share. Every community that matures enough to have argued certain key topics will have decided with confidence on those topics and not kowtowing to the consensus will seem heretical -- the stagnation in some measure spells its doom, Google is thinking how to deal with an increasingly adversarial ground in which many know how to game it with sophisticated SEO thus rendering its main capability a little bit muted, sellers saw that Amazon was a dominant market and sought to exploit the rating system to their advantage, and the end-result is a market saturated with players who were adept at gaming the system.
The interesting flipside observation is that in each of these cases, we see the ground fertile then for a new approach to bud out -- a manifestation of Goodhart's law being consummate. New communities arise in the ashes of old ones, ChatGPT is maybe coming to displace Google in some places, what will take place of Amazon now that its rating system and reputation has tarnished?
The interesting flipside observation is that in each of these cases, we see the ground fertile then for a new approach to bud out -- a manifestation of Goodhart's law being consummate. New communities arise in the ashes of old ones, ChatGPT is maybe coming to displace Google in some places, what will take place of Amazon now that its rating system and reputation has tarnished?
> the stagnation in some measure spells its doom
I'm not sure where you learned about "Eternal September", but it's the exact opposite of what you're describing: not stagnation of culture, but degradation to a pre-existing, high-quality culture due to the rapid influx of new individuals who don't give a shit about maintaining it.
Amazon is going down with Americans precisely because the (predominantly) Chinese sellers on there now couldn't care less about the "nice online garden" Americans created and are instead using up the pre-existing cultural capital Americans had built up for their own selfish advancement—destroying the garden in the process.
But yeah, sure, maybe after the garden has been burned to the ground, something new will replace it. Sounds great.
I'm not sure where you learned about "Eternal September", but it's the exact opposite of what you're describing: not stagnation of culture, but degradation to a pre-existing, high-quality culture due to the rapid influx of new individuals who don't give a shit about maintaining it.
Amazon is going down with Americans precisely because the (predominantly) Chinese sellers on there now couldn't care less about the "nice online garden" Americans created and are instead using up the pre-existing cultural capital Americans had built up for their own selfish advancement—destroying the garden in the process.
But yeah, sure, maybe after the garden has been burned to the ground, something new will replace it. Sounds great.
Amazon isn't failing on customer experience because of the Chinese. The Chinese didn't make Amazon lower their standards so far that it became profitable for Chinese factories to operate on Amazon the way they do. Chinese factories would also make money on a non-shitty Amazon.
Why make this into a weird nationalism issue when Amazon is the one that is responsible for what’s on their platform?
Apple is a similarly massive company that prioritizes curation on their marketplace. Whatever you may feel about App Store policies, Apple has managed the reputation of their online store much better than Amazon (though I will grant that there is somewhat of a difference between physical and digital products).
Apple is a similarly massive company that prioritizes curation on their marketplace. Whatever you may feel about App Store policies, Apple has managed the reputation of their online store much better than Amazon (though I will grant that there is somewhat of a difference between physical and digital products).
What we need is antitrust. Eventually companies capture so much of the market that they can afford to get lazy and profit-take, and still grow. Then the shittier they get, the shittier they have to get in order to maintain financial returns. The decline has to accelerate.
Unless the reason they've become unprofitable again is because they're reinvesting before they've fallen too far, but there's a collective action problem in that depending on how many big shareholders there are.
Unless the reason they've become unprofitable again is because they're reinvesting before they've fallen too far, but there's a collective action problem in that depending on how many big shareholders there are.
We need a government that cares about the individual over the corporate. I think we still mostly have it, but there are enough chinks in the armor to introduce doubt.
We need Antitrust on steroids coupled with vision and a hand on the wheel steering the boat.
We need Antitrust on steroids coupled with vision and a hand on the wheel steering the boat.
> Net loss was $2.7 billion in 2022, or $0.27 per diluted share, compared with net income of $33.4 billion, or $3.24 per diluted share, in 2021.
> 2022 net loss includes a pre-tax valuation loss of $12.7 billion included in non-operating income (expense) from the common stock investment in Rivian Automotive, Inc., compared to a pre-tax valuation gain of $11.8 billion from the investment in 2021.
So, not counting the rivian investment, they gained ~$10B?
This just feel like accounting crap to me. The business itself is still growing. The rivian stock has just been moving like a rollercoaster the past two years. And Amazon didn't invest in rivian for the capital gains, they did it to jumpstart their own EV delivery fleet.
Not very impressive results, but this doesn't exactly spell doom for the company. Reading the comments here would make you think otherwise...
https://press.aboutamazon.com/2023/2/amazon-com-announces-fo...
> 2022 net loss includes a pre-tax valuation loss of $12.7 billion included in non-operating income (expense) from the common stock investment in Rivian Automotive, Inc., compared to a pre-tax valuation gain of $11.8 billion from the investment in 2021.
So, not counting the rivian investment, they gained ~$10B?
This just feel like accounting crap to me. The business itself is still growing. The rivian stock has just been moving like a rollercoaster the past two years. And Amazon didn't invest in rivian for the capital gains, they did it to jumpstart their own EV delivery fleet.
Not very impressive results, but this doesn't exactly spell doom for the company. Reading the comments here would make you think otherwise...
https://press.aboutamazon.com/2023/2/amazon-com-announces-fo...
Did everyone forget Jeff Bezos semi-famous shareholder letter about "Day 1"?
Seems clear to me that Amazon has entered "Day 2".
u/lostoldsession's comment comparing Amazon Prime to a flea market is spot on. And demonstrates that Amazon has abandoned "Day 1" ethos wrt "customer obsession".
Seems clear to me that Amazon has entered "Day 2".
u/lostoldsession's comment comparing Amazon Prime to a flea market is spot on. And demonstrates that Amazon has abandoned "Day 1" ethos wrt "customer obsession".
What's interesting is it was Bezos who made these large, pandemic driven investments. All of this, including the Rivian investment, was under his watch. And now it falls to Jassy to clean up the mess and take the heat.
> And now it falls to Jassy to clean up the mess and take the heat.
It was Besos that drove Amazon's growth until basically now. I don't think it's fair to suddenly badmouth him for one bad year in what? Two decades worth of unparalleled growth?
It was Besos that drove Amazon's growth until basically now. I don't think it's fair to suddenly badmouth him for one bad year in what? Two decades worth of unparalleled growth?
Could have been part of his reason to step down...
I sent a $25 Xbox gift card to a kid as Xmas gift. Guess what? The card was faulty, and the numbers were not visible at all. They sent me a picture and asked if Amazon would replace it. So, I contacted Amazon support, and they asked me to send a card back and gave me a return shipping label assuring me that it was under Amazon A-Z Guarantee. When my friend sent the card to them, they only refunded $0.32 and said the rest was restocking fees. Imagine if someone is buying MacBook Air worth $1000 and Amazon is giving you $1 as a refund saying $999 was a restocking fee. I explained to support over chat that it was a damaged Xbox gift card, but they refused and thought my friend messed it up while scratching it. So fuck Amazon. Their support is gone down hill, and it is all money-grabbing and scamming sellers. Also, they deleted my review. Only 5 stars reviews are appearing on the page except one person with similar issue.
Seems to me that some of Amazon's expansion is all over the place.
For example, Amazon Fresh stores in London are shutting down in places (Dalston) but opening enormous new ones in other spots (Monuement and Croydon) in the same month. I've barely seen anyone in one; with more staff than customers.
For example, Amazon Fresh stores in London are shutting down in places (Dalston) but opening enormous new ones in other spots (Monuement and Croydon) in the same month. I've barely seen anyone in one; with more staff than customers.
The main selling point of Amazons stores is that with no checkouts they can have fewer staff, and less shop footprint for the same number of items sold. Both translate into being cheaper to run.
That should mean they can afford to sell items cheaper than competitors, and win custom.
Yet... Amazon Fresh is the most expensive shop of its kind around.
That should mean they can afford to sell items cheaper than competitors, and win custom.
Yet... Amazon Fresh is the most expensive shop of its kind around.
The Ealing Broadway one, having been open 18 months, still sometimes has queues out of the door to let people in...
Thats the queue from the Louisiana Chicken shop 3 doors down.
I'm dying laughing, please confirm this is true and not a joke.
https://www.mylondon.news/whats-on/i-went-see-foodies-queued...
'I went to see why foodies queued for hours to try new Ealing's Popeyes which made £20k on its first day'
'I went to see why foodies queued for hours to try new Ealing's Popeyes which made £20k on its first day'
Amazon Go stores are the same way - very bright and attractive, definite cool factor to no checkout, food is always fresh - but everything is overpriced and there usually more employees than customers. I usually see one person restocking and two people to answer questions and help with installing the Amazon Go app.
I only bought drinks there because they were the only thing not marked up ridiciously - plus every food item seemed to have quinoa in it and I am not a fan.
I only bought drinks there because they were the only thing not marked up ridiciously - plus every food item seemed to have quinoa in it and I am not a fan.
Interesting that everyone commenting on why Amazon is no longer their choice is pointing out that it’s scamazon now but no one mentions worker treatment so far. Amazon truly is a race to the bottom.
Even if it were the cheapest, the dehumanization of workers is a deal breaker.
There’s been a lot of consternation around the recent tech layoffs and how ai like chat gpt is a bullshit generator. Now imagine if layoffs are not an abnormal occurrence but are a daily possibility and have zero benefits packages. And that they based on badly trained models that constantly monitor one’s performance, and are set to demand 110% at all times.
Even if it were the cheapest, the dehumanization of workers is a deal breaker.
There’s been a lot of consternation around the recent tech layoffs and how ai like chat gpt is a bullshit generator. Now imagine if layoffs are not an abnormal occurrence but are a daily possibility and have zero benefits packages. And that they based on badly trained models that constantly monitor one’s performance, and are set to demand 110% at all times.
Amazon is crap. It's impossible to find anything on the site that is not Chinese garbage. It's not possible to remove Chinese sellers .. not its possible to sort by 5 stars reviews .. I mean I can sort, but the reviews are mostly fake.
I mostly stopped using the site. I live in DK and therefore use the German site.
I had one experience where they refused to take my credit card for some reason and I had to wire the money using the bank. It cost me 20% more and after this I stopped to use the site since the support just keept on repeating the same statements.
I mostly stopped using the site. I live in DK and therefore use the German site.
I had one experience where they refused to take my credit card for some reason and I had to wire the money using the bank. It cost me 20% more and after this I stopped to use the site since the support just keept on repeating the same statements.
It seems for all the comments online that Amazon has gone to crap in the US.
It's still pretty decent and my go too for online shopping here in the UK, however the delivery has gotten awful and that is with Prime increasing it's price. Almost nothing is next day anymore, which is what the service was meant to be.
With Prime you can set a delivery day, but often they want to deliver different items in your order on different days, despite setting a 'prime' day, with no really clear reason why or how to avoid this. It's really annoying.
It's still pretty decent and my go too for online shopping here in the UK, however the delivery has gotten awful and that is with Prime increasing it's price. Almost nothing is next day anymore, which is what the service was meant to be.
With Prime you can set a delivery day, but often they want to deliver different items in your order on different days, despite setting a 'prime' day, with no really clear reason why or how to avoid this. It's really annoying.
As a Canadian, there isn't actually an alternative with reliable and fast shipping.
And if you live outside of a major city, it's still like 4 days.
The only downside is there's entire categories of amazon lost to fakes, if I need batteries I either have to buy amazon basics, or drive to the store.
And if you live outside of a major city, it's still like 4 days.
The only downside is there's entire categories of amazon lost to fakes, if I need batteries I either have to buy amazon basics, or drive to the store.
Buying on Amazon now is like going to the casino. Sometimes I'll play but only if I'm content to take the risk and lose.
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Economy is in recession. people don't have the money for chinese junk on amazon.
It's not junk. It clearly says in the tile "HIGH QUALITY". It also has 120,000 5 star reviews.
Although for some reason it has no 2-4 star reviews. It has 12,000 1 star review who seem to be confused like you. They say it's junk and doesn't work and suggest the 5 star reviews are fake.
Although for some reason it has no 2-4 star reviews. It has 12,000 1 star review who seem to be confused like you. They say it's junk and doesn't work and suggest the 5 star reviews are fake.
Everyone going all like “I canceled prime and didn’t buy anything. This makes sense”. Guys, their retail and Prime stuff is going gangbusters, your cancelation notwithstanding. The loss is because of other stuff. I won’t spoil it for you. Sometimes articles contain details.
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Has anyone else experienced a gigantic degradation in Amazon's search over the past 5 or so years? Even when searching for a specific part number, the results are packed full of obviously fake unrelated items from shady sellers. The reviews are obviously fake as well, but they're all five stars. Amazon is unusable.
There was a recent analysis video someone posted on HN about this. Most of the search results these days are actually ads, even 3 pages into the results!
Good. They deserve it for bringing us the travesty that was rings of prime.
That billion dollar bet sure didn’t pan out either.
That billion dollar bet sure didn’t pan out either.
No fear of recession. Keep up raising rates and wrecking the economy.
The job market doesn't show much of a recession brewing. Unemployment rate fell, with 517,000 new jobs instead of the expected 187,000.
The real reason for Amazon's unprofitable year is in the article.
> By far, the biggest culprit for Amazon's losses over the year was the company's hefty investment in the electric automaker Rivian whose value plummeted last year and ate into Amazon's bottom line.
The real reason for Amazon's unprofitable year is in the article.
> By far, the biggest culprit for Amazon's losses over the year was the company's hefty investment in the electric automaker Rivian whose value plummeted last year and ate into Amazon's bottom line.
They should split amazon services from retail and all the physical crap. I would even dump the ecommerce site from the marketplace
Confusing consumers about whether they are buying from Amazon or the market place of 3rd party tat is a core Amazon business line though.
… and I think a lot of expansion that doesn’t make sense.
Wegmans supermarkets opened a new store a few years ago at the Brooklyn Navy Yard in reaction to that Whole Foods in Union Square with that dehumanizing cattle chute.
People in the cultural-industrial complex who grew up in NYC have been getting groceries at bodegas their whole life, it is easy to impress them with a grocery store that would get laughed at in Ohio. Wegmans had to move into that space as a matter of cultural self-defense.
Amazon just sent me an email pleading me to renew my Prime subscription, boasting about somebody, somewhere gets 1-day shipping for some item sometime but they are dead to me because 2-day shipping disappeared 2 years ago for me. No way am I going to pay for a subscription to get service that is worse than what I get from other retailed. (E.g. I ordered a game from GameStop on Saturday, it was postmarked an hour later.)
Wegmans supermarkets opened a new store a few years ago at the Brooklyn Navy Yard in reaction to that Whole Foods in Union Square with that dehumanizing cattle chute.
People in the cultural-industrial complex who grew up in NYC have been getting groceries at bodegas their whole life, it is easy to impress them with a grocery store that would get laughed at in Ohio. Wegmans had to move into that space as a matter of cultural self-defense.
Amazon just sent me an email pleading me to renew my Prime subscription, boasting about somebody, somewhere gets 1-day shipping for some item sometime but they are dead to me because 2-day shipping disappeared 2 years ago for me. No way am I going to pay for a subscription to get service that is worse than what I get from other retailed. (E.g. I ordered a game from GameStop on Saturday, it was postmarked an hour later.)
"Amazon just sent me an email pleading me to renew my Prime subscription, boasting about somebody, somewhere gets 1-day shipping for some item sometime but they are dead to me because 2-day shipping disappeared 2 years ago for me. No way am I going to pay for a subscription to get service that is worse than what I get from other retailed. (E.g. I ordered a game from GameStop on Saturday, it was postmarked an hour later.)"
This might work for you and people in cities but as you get to other areas what you want might take longer than 2 days to arrive.
This might work for you and people in cities but as you get to other areas what you want might take longer than 2 days to arrive.
I am in a rural area about a 4 hour drive from NYC.
Other retailers frequently get me next day or 2nd day shipping. This includes big ones like Walmart and Office Depot and many speciality retailers based around NYC.
Amazon now promises me 5-day shipping at best. I was one of the early adopters of Prime, I subscribed shortly after it came out. Amazon Prime shipping was better than average back then, it is worse than average now, and that's completely untenable for a service which is marketing itself as "premium". It's like if the cashier made fun at you at the store for using an American Express card.
Other retailers frequently get me next day or 2nd day shipping. This includes big ones like Walmart and Office Depot and many speciality retailers based around NYC.
Amazon now promises me 5-day shipping at best. I was one of the early adopters of Prime, I subscribed shortly after it came out. Amazon Prime shipping was better than average back then, it is worse than average now, and that's completely untenable for a service which is marketing itself as "premium". It's like if the cashier made fun at you at the store for using an American Express card.
> Wegmans supermarkets opened a new store a few years ago at the Brooklyn Navy Yard in reaction to that Whole Foods in Union Square with that dehumanizing cattle chute.
Dehumanizing cattle chute? What do you mean? I've never heard this term in relation to a grocer.
Dehumanizing cattle chute? What do you mean? I've never heard this term in relation to a grocer.
Instead of a dozen lines, there's a single line feeding all registers. Somebody studied queuing theory to save you checkout time, but now it's, oh, the humanity! (Unless I'm thinking of the wrong store.)
How is a single line feeding all registers not better? It's so frustrating being a busy store, getting in the best-looking checkout line, then finding out the person in front of you has decided they need to a price check/manager intervention/whatever at the register while all the people around you are passing you.
I wish more places would have just a single line (although using self-checkout, if available often solves this problem as well).
I wish more places would have just a single line (although using self-checkout, if available often solves this problem as well).
Single lines are fine. It is superficial aspects of the design of that "cattle chute" at the Union Square Whole Foods that make it feel dehumanizing.
People think Amazon is a particularly advanced retailer and that every other retailer is "legacy" like Sears and Roebucks and that is just not true. Go to a Wal-Mart Supercenter in a flyover state and you will find a large investment in an advanced self-check system that has single lines and many other features that make for a competitive checkout experience.
People think Amazon is a particularly advanced retailer and that every other retailer is "legacy" like Sears and Roebucks and that is just not true. Go to a Wal-Mart Supercenter in a flyover state and you will find a large investment in an advanced self-check system that has single lines and many other features that make for a competitive checkout experience.
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Sam's Club has mobile app scan and go. Its so nice just being able to scan things as I put it in the cart. When you're ready to leave you just mark finish and pay in the app. It shows a QR code you show to the loss prevention people at the exit. They scan the QR code, scan three items in the cart and do a quick eyeball count of items, and you're on your way.
I truly wish more places had this. Its been my favorite way to shop so far. So fast, so easy, far less machine learning and expensive cameras and sensors everywhere. Its even better than a single queue for checkout, which is for sure far better than multiple queues.
I truly wish more places had this. Its been my favorite way to shop so far. So fast, so easy, far less machine learning and expensive cameras and sensors everywhere. Its even better than a single queue for checkout, which is for sure far better than multiple queues.
Wegmans had that for a while; they got rid of due to shrinkage. (I presume lots of people were stuffing $200 beef tenderloins into the bottoms of their bags.) They're trialing a camera-driven replacement now.
I think Wal-Mart had the same issue. They've tied it to a paid membership program. Presumably people paying ~$100/year are less likely to walk out without paying for things. And they'd also be easier to catch.
I wholeheartedly agree with you about queuing theory, and can't not think of it every time I'm in line somewhere. But apparently they needed to study up on the fallacy of personal choice, which pervades US culture.
It's the same reason Southwest has open seating. When people choose their own seats, they stick to them hard. Whereas often on a plane with "assigned" seats, there will be a bunch of people trying to swap with other people (window for aisle, let me sit next to my buddy, etc), which interferes with the new people boarding.
It's the same reason Southwest has open seating. When people choose their own seats, they stick to them hard. Whereas often on a plane with "assigned" seats, there will be a bunch of people trying to swap with other people (window for aisle, let me sit next to my buddy, etc), which interferes with the new people boarding.
Where is this cattle chute of theirs?
When you line up to check out, there are six lines side-by-side. The cashier signals you via a screen on the ceiling.
The WF on the UES only has two lines (and no screen).
The WF on the UES only has two lines (and no screen).
Oh you mean the checkout lines. I thought they were slaughtering cows on premise to keep them fresh. I couldn't imagine how they managed to transport them through the tiny San Francisco streets.
I'm talking about that other Union Square in NYC. But then again they have no trouble running bulls on Wall Street.
Amazon’s investment in building out a delivery business is suicide.
The cost-effectiveness of a fast delivery network is related to the volume it moves. If there is always a full truck heading in the right direction packages don’t waste time and money sitting in warehouses. If every other retailer is helping UPS and FedEX fill their trucks, Flavor Flav will be singing “Amazon Prime is a joke in yo’ town”
Amazon is big but it is not big enough to be the best.
The cost-effectiveness of a fast delivery network is related to the volume it moves. If there is always a full truck heading in the right direction packages don’t waste time and money sitting in warehouses. If every other retailer is helping UPS and FedEX fill their trucks, Flavor Flav will be singing “Amazon Prime is a joke in yo’ town”
Amazon is big but it is not big enough to be the best.
Amazon logistics is bigger than Fedex, very close to UPS, and closing fast on USPS, as measured by number of packages delivered in the US. So, actually, they are big enough to be the best. Not saying they will be, but scale will not hold them back.
https://www.ajc.com/news/business/amazon-is-upss-biggest-cus...
https://www.axios.com/2022/05/24/amazon-shipping-fedex-ups
https://www.ajc.com/news/business/amazon-is-upss-biggest-cus...
https://www.axios.com/2022/05/24/amazon-shipping-fedex-ups
I don't know if it's just my area (Atlanta) but they are very bad at delivering. I've started moving away from Amazon because they keep losing my packages. I'm in an area that used to be same day delivery but now I often get the "We're sorry your package is late. If you don't get it in 3 days let us know and we'll give you a refund." And what's weird is they are the ones delivering it. So why can't they just try again? I ask customer service but they say they aren't allowed. I have wait three days, cancel the order, get a refund, and start all over.
A few times the order has been marked as delivered with a photo of what is clearly not my house and customer service didn't understand the problem. They refused to either re-deliver / refund because they had "proof" it was delivered. Only when I threatened to do a chargeback did they refund and then, once again, I had to start all over.
It's been weird shopping at other places because some of them take 4 to 5 days just to get an order out of the warehouse and then have awful return policies. It's a trade off for sure.
A few times the order has been marked as delivered with a photo of what is clearly not my house and customer service didn't understand the problem. They refused to either re-deliver / refund because they had "proof" it was delivered. Only when I threatened to do a chargeback did they refund and then, once again, I had to start all over.
It's been weird shopping at other places because some of them take 4 to 5 days just to get an order out of the warehouse and then have awful return policies. It's a trade off for sure.
I’ve had the same experience.
I ordered some small parts for my lab. The delivery person somehow sneaks past the guard/receptionist and dumps it in a random waiting room somewhere in a massive hospital/university complex. It took a coworker and I hours to find one package; another never turned up at all!
We try to get deliveries from elsewhere now because, as fun as scanvenger hunts are, I do have other stuff to do too…
I ordered some small parts for my lab. The delivery person somehow sneaks past the guard/receptionist and dumps it in a random waiting room somewhere in a massive hospital/university complex. It took a coworker and I hours to find one package; another never turned up at all!
We try to get deliveries from elsewhere now because, as fun as scanvenger hunts are, I do have other stuff to do too…
It is weird. I see an Amazon delivery vehicle driving around in a certain neighborhood on any given Sunday, I can't make up my mind if it looks like a PT Cruiser or a Domino's Pizza delivery fan. Other delivery firms are driving 4x larger vans.
Amazon appears to 'brute force' logistics. USPS, UPS & FedEX seem to be better at this. We can have 3 trucks in my small 12 house edition but the other guys only have 1 each. (That's why I call it brute force.)
I don't believe Amazon is a logistics company... or not a good one.
I don't believe Amazon is a logistics company... or not a good one.
isn't brute force the modus operandi of behemoths burning money to establish monopolies?
as mentioned they are bigger than FedEX already.
what will happen when the biggest ecommerce doesn't use FedEX, UPS, USPS anymore?
what will happen when other sellers have trouble getting packages to customers because some delivery zones are dominated by Amazon and they become unprofitable routes for other couriers?
why do you think Amazon launched the Buy with Prime button for third party sites?
as mentioned they are bigger than FedEX already.
what will happen when the biggest ecommerce doesn't use FedEX, UPS, USPS anymore?
what will happen when other sellers have trouble getting packages to customers because some delivery zones are dominated by Amazon and they become unprofitable routes for other couriers?
why do you think Amazon launched the Buy with Prime button for third party sites?
Articles about their logistics business make it sound like it is all about exotic performance on the last mile but that seems silly to me.
A UPS truck comes out to my rural neighborhood every day, 2-day shipping from the Northeast is straightforward in an efficient ground network. 3-day shipping from Texas to Upstate NY is straightforward.
The difference matters because 2-day shipping competes strongly with going to the store. It is faster to drop everything and go to store than buy something online. Even finding time to go the store in the next 2 days can seem a hassle but in 5 days I can batch the trip with something else and with less pressure it seems fun to having an outing rather than a hassle.
It's a change that makes AMZN go from being the first place you go to shop for something to the last.
Now maybe it is different in urban areas, you really do appreciate the saved time when AMZN zips out three motorcyclists to deliver you three separate packages in one day. If that's what it is Amazon will really have the largest logistics network but the least cost-effective and that's not good for profits.
A UPS truck comes out to my rural neighborhood every day, 2-day shipping from the Northeast is straightforward in an efficient ground network. 3-day shipping from Texas to Upstate NY is straightforward.
The difference matters because 2-day shipping competes strongly with going to the store. It is faster to drop everything and go to store than buy something online. Even finding time to go the store in the next 2 days can seem a hassle but in 5 days I can batch the trip with something else and with less pressure it seems fun to having an outing rather than a hassle.
It's a change that makes AMZN go from being the first place you go to shop for something to the last.
Now maybe it is different in urban areas, you really do appreciate the saved time when AMZN zips out three motorcyclists to deliver you three separate packages in one day. If that's what it is Amazon will really have the largest logistics network but the least cost-effective and that's not good for profits.
It's never that simple. These companies have highly trained staff who can do math, but there are other considerations than just cost effectiveness of the trucks.
It's a global company and I can't speak for every region but what I've seen in some places is that local infrastructure is lacking to the point that it seriously hinders the business. I.e. angry customers that stop ordering stuff because of repeated frustrations with the delivery companies. And even if UPS and FedEx were super reliable in the US (don't know if they are), it would still be risky to fully bet on them without at least controlling some of the market.
It's a global company and I can't speak for every region but what I've seen in some places is that local infrastructure is lacking to the point that it seriously hinders the business. I.e. angry customers that stop ordering stuff because of repeated frustrations with the delivery companies. And even if UPS and FedEx were super reliable in the US (don't know if they are), it would still be risky to fully bet on them without at least controlling some of the market.
That is a good point globally.
UPS, FedEx and the US Postal Service are highly reliable in the US. They used to get their trucks stuck in our driveway (nothing a farmer with a floor jack can't fix) but now they leave packages at the end of our driveway and we bring them in, which keeps the service reliable for the rest of our route.
The USPS used to be faster to send letters. What I miss most of all is that there used to be a slot in our town's post office for letters to the nearest city that would go directly there for cost-effective overnight delivery. I liked getting a letter to my bank, or the county clerk that way. Now they send all the mail to Rochester where it is photographed by some machine which provides better tracking but worse speed.
UPS, FedEx and the US Postal Service are highly reliable in the US. They used to get their trucks stuck in our driveway (nothing a farmer with a floor jack can't fix) but now they leave packages at the end of our driveway and we bring them in, which keeps the service reliable for the rest of our route.
The USPS used to be faster to send letters. What I miss most of all is that there used to be a slot in our town's post office for letters to the nearest city that would go directly there for cost-effective overnight delivery. I liked getting a letter to my bank, or the county clerk that way. Now they send all the mail to Rochester where it is photographed by some machine which provides better tracking but worse speed.
> And even if UPS and FedEx were super reliable in the US (don't know if they are)
FedEx is problematic in my area. Just the other day, they reported that they delivered a package at my door, when they didn't. Because they reported it as delivered, the $100 I spent is just lost money.
I try hard to avoid having FedEx ship anything to me because this isn't the first time this has happened.
FedEx is problematic in my area. Just the other day, they reported that they delivered a package at my door, when they didn't. Because they reported it as delivered, the $100 I spent is just lost money.
I try hard to avoid having FedEx ship anything to me because this isn't the first time this has happened.
They are more or less done building the network. Right now they're converting to EVs. The article mentions this. When every other retailer is buying fuel to deliver those packages Amazon will be raking in the savings.
Maybe in the US they're done building it, but they are still expanding their logistics and delivery network in other countries.
And it make sense for Amazon to do that. Existing varriers, DHL, UPS and the like, are hitting capacity constraints and cannot cope with Amazon's growth anymore. And since the invest in capacity is not trivial, they'd love to see Amazon to contribute. So Amazon has to invest in someones capacity, so it can easily be their own.
And in India, well, there it is either your own capacity or none at all.
And in India, well, there it is either your own capacity or none at all.
UPS spends ~10x more on people than it spends on fuel. And Amazon seems to be doing far less per driver than other carriers. It’s nice that Amazon is saving money on fuel, but that isn’t going to save them… they have to figure out how to run a logistics company first.
At least in cities I think they should be more worried about their treatment of workers and rejection of quality control. Nobody I know has any complaints about their delivery times but I know a number of people who won’t buy from them citing working conditions or a history of getting counterfeits or knockoffs. The economics of that distribution network are not going to be pretty if customers become less loyal.
I know many people who like working at Amazon but I know there are many that don't.
As for the scamazon marketplace, that's a clear and present danger. Amazon's real strength relative to the Best Buys of the world is that is the "everything store" with a huge selection. The dark side of it is that the marketplace is much less trustworthy than most others (I'm sure there is some dark web site that sells drugs for Monero that is worse.)
I have corresponded w/ AMZN about product listings that are completely nonsensical, like they were written by GPT-0, and been told that they didn't want to hear any complaints about a listing unless I'd bought the item and been ripped off.
Now I like shopping, I like reading about products. I don't like sifting through word salad to find product listings. And the fact that AMZN just doesn't care (they say so!) is one more reason why it is the last place I shop for things instead of the first.
Contrast that to Ebay or Craiglist where the listings make sense (even if some people struggle to spell words like "cat" and "pig") and the sellers are overwhelmingly honest whether they are from the town next door or the far reaches of the "global village".
As for the scamazon marketplace, that's a clear and present danger. Amazon's real strength relative to the Best Buys of the world is that is the "everything store" with a huge selection. The dark side of it is that the marketplace is much less trustworthy than most others (I'm sure there is some dark web site that sells drugs for Monero that is worse.)
I have corresponded w/ AMZN about product listings that are completely nonsensical, like they were written by GPT-0, and been told that they didn't want to hear any complaints about a listing unless I'd bought the item and been ripped off.
Now I like shopping, I like reading about products. I don't like sifting through word salad to find product listings. And the fact that AMZN just doesn't care (they say so!) is one more reason why it is the last place I shop for things instead of the first.
Contrast that to Ebay or Craiglist where the listings make sense (even if some people struggle to spell words like "cat" and "pig") and the sellers are overwhelmingly honest whether they are from the town next door or the far reaches of the "global village".
Yeah, I'm not saying Amazon is terrible or that I don't buy from them but if I were in charge I'd worry about those reputation issues since that's the kind of thing which takes a long time to change. I periodically get spam from people offering to pay me for fake Amazon reviews and the fact that they are not interested in receiving those reports worries me more than anything else about the business long-term.
Looks like you are just talking out of your head with no numbers or any other evidence to support the argument.
On this point I'd believe that Amazon understands better than any outsider whether it is worth it to build their own delivery network.
On this point I'd believe that Amazon understands better than any outsider whether it is worth it to build their own delivery network.
They sure believed more than anyone else that it was worth it spending $10 billion + on "smart" speakers.
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Last year, I purchased a single item on Amazon.
In the midst of moving apartments right now, and looking for basics + upgrades. I've noticed what made Amazon so great and dare I say addicting was trustworthy reviews and crowd-wisdom curation of good-enough products. This shopping cycle, that magic felt gone. The audacity of product search to be littered with ads. A few years into that Amazon habit, I started reaching for "fake amazon reviews" on Google to get an estimate of how authentic the reviews are. Even that step has been gamed and noisy now.