Pentagon warns poppy seeds might cause troops to fail drug tests(washingtonpost.com)
washingtonpost.com
Pentagon warns poppy seeds might cause troops to fail drug tests
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/02/22/poppy-seeds-drug-test-military/
30 comments
> but at least some of the toxicologists I spoke with were concerned that, at sufficient quantities, affected individuals could experience adverse health events based on consumption of the contaminated poppy seeds.
Did they give you hard numbers? Is that 1 poppy seed? 1 teaspoon of poppy seed? 1 pound of poppy seed?
The dose makes the poison. The problem is that the tests are oversensitive. It's like failing a drug test due to a coffee in the morning because it may be an excuse to be taking pure caffeine pills.
Did they give you hard numbers? Is that 1 poppy seed? 1 teaspoon of poppy seed? 1 pound of poppy seed?
The dose makes the poison. The problem is that the tests are oversensitive. It's like failing a drug test due to a coffee in the morning because it may be an excuse to be taking pure caffeine pills.
> Did they give you hard numbers? Is that 1 poppy seed? 1 teaspoon of poppy seed? 1 pound of poppy seed?
As I clearly explained, this is due to contamination, possibly due to poor washing. The quantity needed is therefore going to depend on the level of contamination.
> The problem is that the tests are oversensitive.
The DoD has been operating on a 2000ng/mL cutoff, which is high, so... no.
Also, the food supply is contaminated with opiates and your first thought is that the tests are too sensitive?
As I clearly explained, this is due to contamination, possibly due to poor washing. The quantity needed is therefore going to depend on the level of contamination.
> The problem is that the tests are oversensitive.
The DoD has been operating on a 2000ng/mL cutoff, which is high, so... no.
Also, the food supply is contaminated with opiates and your first thought is that the tests are too sensitive?
What is the dangerous dose of raw unwashed poppy seed? Can just one of them kill you?
> Also, the food supply is contaminated with opiates and your first thought is that the tests are too sensitive?
Yes, exactly. The dose makes the poison.
For example in the north of Argentina (were my parents come from), it's common to chew coca leaves [1]. They have cocaine! (There is also coca tea.) It's part of the local traditions and even part of the old religions (that are now somewhat mixed with the chistian religions). They have cocaine! But the dose is so low that you can get as high as drinking a cup of coffee. That has caffeine! Do you want to ban worldwide coca chewing, coffee, tea, ...
Note that it's not equivalent to taking pure cocaine that is extracted proceeding a very huge amount of coca leaves. Like it's not equivalent a cup of coffee to pure caffeine.
Anyway, national and international regulation sometimes ignore this local details and doses, and you may get in trouble.
[1] Spanish: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acullico The English article is too short. Autotranslation: https://es-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Acullico?_x_t...
> Also, the food supply is contaminated with opiates and your first thought is that the tests are too sensitive?
Yes, exactly. The dose makes the poison.
For example in the north of Argentina (were my parents come from), it's common to chew coca leaves [1]. They have cocaine! (There is also coca tea.) It's part of the local traditions and even part of the old religions (that are now somewhat mixed with the chistian religions). They have cocaine! But the dose is so low that you can get as high as drinking a cup of coffee. That has caffeine! Do you want to ban worldwide coca chewing, coffee, tea, ...
Note that it's not equivalent to taking pure cocaine that is extracted proceeding a very huge amount of coca leaves. Like it's not equivalent a cup of coffee to pure caffeine.
Anyway, national and international regulation sometimes ignore this local details and doses, and you may get in trouble.
[1] Spanish: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acullico The English article is too short. Autotranslation: https://es-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Acullico?_x_t...
You seem to fundamentally misunderstand the issue and I don't know how to explain it more clearly than I have.
It does not matter how many poppy seeds there are. It matters how much poppy latex remains on them. The poppy seed itself contains no opiates.
The quantitative measure you're looking for is widely variable, because—again—it's not a matter of how many poppy seeds, but the level of contamination at the source. Five years ago it may have been practically impossible. Now, one poppy seed muffin in one experiment with one participant led to a codeine urinalysis result of 1300ng/mL. Others were usually lower, but without wider experimentation it's hard to say what the maximum value is or what the true error bars are.
The tests are not the issue.
It does not matter how many poppy seeds there are. It matters how much poppy latex remains on them. The poppy seed itself contains no opiates.
The quantitative measure you're looking for is widely variable, because—again—it's not a matter of how many poppy seeds, but the level of contamination at the source. Five years ago it may have been practically impossible. Now, one poppy seed muffin in one experiment with one participant led to a codeine urinalysis result of 1300ng/mL. Others were usually lower, but without wider experimentation it's hard to say what the maximum value is or what the true error bars are.
The tests are not the issue.
From one of the fists results on Google: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6513924/
It looks like 1kg (2 pounds) of [unwashed?] poppy seeds are addictive but not lethal. I'm not sure how to extrapolate that to the minimal active dose.
How many poppy seeds does bread/desert have? 5%? 10%? You must eat like 10Kg (20 pounds). A normal person eats like 1kg of food per day. Also a reputable bakery will use washed-but-not-perfectly-washed poppy seeds instead of unwashed poppy seeds, so you should multiply the amount of bread x10 or x100.
It looks like 1kg (2 pounds) of [unwashed?] poppy seeds are addictive but not lethal. I'm not sure how to extrapolate that to the minimal active dose.
How many poppy seeds does bread/desert have? 5%? 10%? You must eat like 10Kg (20 pounds). A normal person eats like 1kg of food per day. Also a reputable bakery will use washed-but-not-perfectly-washed poppy seeds instead of unwashed poppy seeds, so you should multiply the amount of bread x10 or x100.
> It looks like 1kg (2 pounds) of [unwashed?] poppy seeds are addictive but not lethal.
No, that isn't what the cited reference says. Poppy seeds are neither addictive nor lethal.
> How many poppy seeds does bread/desert have? 5%? 10%? You must eat like 10Kg (20 pounds). A normal person eats like 1kg of food per day. Also a reputable bakery will use wash
No. See above.
> Also a reputable bakery will use washed-but-not-perfectly-washed poppy seeds instead of unwashed poppy seeds
False. The contamination with poppy latex is not immediately apparent and not always labeled. The discovery of significant contamination—consistent with unwashed poppy seeds, in widely available commercial baked goods—is why we issued the Brady notice.
No, that isn't what the cited reference says. Poppy seeds are neither addictive nor lethal.
> How many poppy seeds does bread/desert have? 5%? 10%? You must eat like 10Kg (20 pounds). A normal person eats like 1kg of food per day. Also a reputable bakery will use wash
No. See above.
> Also a reputable bakery will use washed-but-not-perfectly-washed poppy seeds instead of unwashed poppy seeds
False. The contamination with poppy latex is not immediately apparent and not always labeled. The discovery of significant contamination—consistent with unwashed poppy seeds, in widely available commercial baked goods—is why we issued the Brady notice.
there exit harmless herbal supplements that will likely result in false positives for many of the drugs on standard tests.
Had a buddy in rehab who wanted to screw around with them; so we researched and made up a "vitamin powder" he could put in his milkshakes there (and share freely: totally innocent, non-narcotic blah stuff). Which resulted in lighting up his urine tests like a Christmas tree. Poppy seeds, valerian root, morning glory ... i forget the rest. not much was needed.
It was hilarious but then they started doing the blood tests on him and kept him a while longer to counsel him on his attitude. Epic stunts may sometimes be worth the cost.
Had a buddy in rehab who wanted to screw around with them; so we researched and made up a "vitamin powder" he could put in his milkshakes there (and share freely: totally innocent, non-narcotic blah stuff). Which resulted in lighting up his urine tests like a Christmas tree. Poppy seeds, valerian root, morning glory ... i forget the rest. not much was needed.
It was hilarious but then they started doing the blood tests on him and kept him a while longer to counsel him on his attitude. Epic stunts may sometimes be worth the cost.
> non-narcotic
It is possible to get high on each one of the items you listed there... Morning glory contains LSA, which will trigger LSD tests (but can get you high in its own right). As a side note, most common drug tests do not test for LSD. Valerian root contains a number of GABAergic alkaloids, though I don't believe it will trigger any of the tests for GABAergic drugs like eg alcohol or benzodiazepines. Again, neither of those are in the most common drug test panels. And poppy seeds need to be washed to get the opiate alkaloids off: people use unwashed poppy seeds to make poppy tea recreationally. PST is functionally equivalent to taking opium orally.
Even if this so-called vitamin powder was intended to be a joke, it was absolutely not non-narcotic.
It is possible to get high on each one of the items you listed there... Morning glory contains LSA, which will trigger LSD tests (but can get you high in its own right). As a side note, most common drug tests do not test for LSD. Valerian root contains a number of GABAergic alkaloids, though I don't believe it will trigger any of the tests for GABAergic drugs like eg alcohol or benzodiazepines. Again, neither of those are in the most common drug test panels. And poppy seeds need to be washed to get the opiate alkaloids off: people use unwashed poppy seeds to make poppy tea recreationally. PST is functionally equivalent to taking opium orally.
Even if this so-called vitamin powder was intended to be a joke, it was absolutely not non-narcotic.
[deleted]
Back in August of '96 when I had just moved out to California and started the onboarding for working at Taos, the group of us who were new hires that week (a dozen) were sitting in a conference room with some bagels.
Some of the bagels were poppy seed and one of my new-coworkers commented "well, guess we're not doing drug tests."
The "what can cause false positives" is a "this should be well known" and if someone has a positive result and claims that they've eaten poppy seeds, then get a hair sample and test that.
If you're in an industry that is likely to have random drug tests, it may be wise to avoid poppy seeds.
https://www.usada.org/spirit-of-sport/education/can-poppysee...
Some of the bagels were poppy seed and one of my new-coworkers commented "well, guess we're not doing drug tests."
The "what can cause false positives" is a "this should be well known" and if someone has a positive result and claims that they've eaten poppy seeds, then get a hair sample and test that.
If you're in an industry that is likely to have random drug tests, it may be wise to avoid poppy seeds.
https://www.usada.org/spirit-of-sport/education/can-poppysee...
> If you're in an industry that is likely to have random drug tests, it may be wise to change organizations/industry
FTFY
FTFY
My field of tech is strict no drug. The level of job security and salaries this provides is insane. FAANG salaries, and a tenth of the work(if that) compared to private sector. Along with being near impossible to get fired or laid off and all I have to do is not smoke a doobie.
well, I guess you have a point: non-evidence based requirements leads to non-evidence based remuneration/TC.
Welcome to government, where comp isn't based on skills and is based on years of experience. And money is based on hours billed rather than shipping a product like private sector :)
I can pass drug tests (without cheating, I mean), what's this magical tech field you're referring to?
Defense contractors.
The job listings I've seen show junior-level Bay Area FAANG compensation for senior-level roles, but I might be looking in the wrong places. Maybe it gets comparable with overtime and hazard pay, but the work environment goes from better to far worse with those add-ons.
[deleted]
I dont want a high pilot on my flight. But it becomes a problem when the pilot, who is a good aviator, is addicted to something due to depression. The tests are the only way it can be caught. If the pilot was ethical/morally competent, he wouldn't have taken anything before a flight at least longtime before it.
It's wise to change, yes, but how many people in denial will do that.
> I dont want a high pilot on my flight.
They're usually not testing for intoxication, but any use at all (where possible). What's the point? Who cares what someone did last week? Meanwhile, you can be 200% hungover and blow 0.00 for alcohol even though it has totally affected you.
> But it becomes a problem when the pilot, who is a good aviator, is addicted to something due to depression
Sauce? Not ideal, but where's the problem with successful self-treatment of depression?
> due to depression
Any 2-brain-celled pilot would never admit to any psych issue whatsoever anyway.
They're usually not testing for intoxication, but any use at all (where possible). What's the point? Who cares what someone did last week? Meanwhile, you can be 200% hungover and blow 0.00 for alcohol even though it has totally affected you.
> But it becomes a problem when the pilot, who is a good aviator, is addicted to something due to depression
Sauce? Not ideal, but where's the problem with successful self-treatment of depression?
> due to depression
Any 2-brain-celled pilot would never admit to any psych issue whatsoever anyway.
Pinged positive for opiates because of a load of poppy seeds on some 7 seed bread. Was living in a car at the time while hunting work on the other side of country. Ate half the loaf in one day. Turns out it was enough. Still got the job. Boss was understanding.
It was this stuff. https://shop.coles.com.au/a/national/product/coles-bakery-br...
It was this stuff. https://shop.coles.com.au/a/national/product/coles-bakery-br...
> Coles Online is not available in your country or access has been blocked
What is it that they don’t want us to know in Canada?
What is it that they don’t want us to know in Canada?
Likely that they're setting cookies or using fingerprinting scripts.
Kids use this trick to get high. Unfortunately if they are used to washed batches of poppies seeds and then get a poorly washed batch, it is often enough to kill them when consuming their normal quantity.
The LD50 is only about 4x the recreational dose of heroin. So this is a dangerous class of drugs to play around with if the intent is to get high
The LD50 is only about 4x the recreational dose of heroin. So this is a dangerous class of drugs to play around with if the intent is to get high
It was very common in Eastern Europe during the Soviet time. For instance it is still referred to as "kompot" (original meaning: a popular type of fruit drink) in Poland. The phenomenon is also generally known as "Polish Heroin"[0].
For this Poppy straws - the whole dried plant with everything but the seeds - are used which are far more richer in opiate alkaloids.
In 1927, a Hungarian successfully chemically extracted opiate alkaloids from just using the crushed capsules [1]. Today 90% of all legally derived morphine is through poppy straw concentrate (PCS) [2].
[0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_heroin
[1]https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/bulletin/bu...
[2]https://www.unodc.org/documents/wdr/WDR_2008/WDR2008_100year...
For this Poppy straws - the whole dried plant with everything but the seeds - are used which are far more richer in opiate alkaloids.
In 1927, a Hungarian successfully chemically extracted opiate alkaloids from just using the crushed capsules [1]. Today 90% of all legally derived morphine is through poppy straw concentrate (PCS) [2].
[0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_heroin
[1]https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/bulletin/bu...
[2]https://www.unodc.org/documents/wdr/WDR_2008/WDR2008_100year...
Very cool. Working with a known unwashed product is much safer.
Important to note this isn't a false positive (i.e., not a problem with lab procedures). I don't know the medical side of this, but at least some of the toxicologists I spoke with were concerned that, at sufficient quantities, affected individuals could experience adverse health events based on consumption of the contaminated poppy seeds.
(Also: the DoD reporting cutoff for codeine was already significantly higher than the industry standard, to try to eliminate or minimize the possibility of this happening.)