Simply explained: How does GPT work?(confusedbit.dev)
confusedbit.dev
Simply explained: How does GPT work?
https://confusedbit.dev/posts/how_does_gpt_work/
380 comments
In my understanding of the Chinese Room example, the resolution to the argument is that the *human* may not understand Chinese, but the *system as a whole* can be said to understand it.
With this in mind, I think asking whether ChatGPT *in and of itself* is "conscious" or has "agency" is sort of like asking if the speech center of a particular human's brain is "conscious" or has "agency": it's not really a question that makes sense, because the speech center of a brain is just one part of a densely interconnected system that we only interpret as a "mind" when considered in its totality.
With this in mind, I think asking whether ChatGPT *in and of itself* is "conscious" or has "agency" is sort of like asking if the speech center of a particular human's brain is "conscious" or has "agency": it's not really a question that makes sense, because the speech center of a brain is just one part of a densely interconnected system that we only interpret as a "mind" when considered in its totality.
Good point, that very much vibes with my thoughts on this matter. Lately, I've been contemplating the analogy between the role LLMs might take within society with that of the brain's language center* in human behavior. There's definitely a way in which we resemble these models. More than some might like to admit. The cleverness, but also the hallucinating, gaslighting and other such behaviors.
And on the other hand, any way you'd slice it, it seems to me LLMs - and software systems in general - necessarily lack intrinsic motivation. By definition, any goal it has can only be the goal of whoever designed that system. Even if its maker decides - "let it pick goals randomly", those randomly picked goals are just intermediate steps toward the enacting of the programmer's original goal. Robert Miles' YouTube videos on alignment shed light on these issues also. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEUO6pjwFOo
Another relevant source on these issues is the book "The Master and his Emissary", which discusses how basically the language center can, in some way - I'm simplifying a lot, fall prey to the illusion that "it" is the entirety of human consciousness.
* or at least some subsystems of that language center, it's important to remember how little we still understand of human cognition
And on the other hand, any way you'd slice it, it seems to me LLMs - and software systems in general - necessarily lack intrinsic motivation. By definition, any goal it has can only be the goal of whoever designed that system. Even if its maker decides - "let it pick goals randomly", those randomly picked goals are just intermediate steps toward the enacting of the programmer's original goal. Robert Miles' YouTube videos on alignment shed light on these issues also. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEUO6pjwFOo
Another relevant source on these issues is the book "The Master and his Emissary", which discusses how basically the language center can, in some way - I'm simplifying a lot, fall prey to the illusion that "it" is the entirety of human consciousness.
* or at least some subsystems of that language center, it's important to remember how little we still understand of human cognition
What goals do we have that aren't essentially all boiled down to whatever evolution, genetics, and our environment have sorted of molded into us?
If you subscribe to a purely mechanistic world-view, i.e. computationalism, then yes. But that's a leap of faith I cannot justify taking. It's a matter of faith, because though we cannot exclude the possibility logically, it also doesn't follow necessarily from our experience of life, at least as far as I can see. Yes, so many times throughout the ages, scientists have discovered mechanisms to explain things which we've historically been convinced will always be outside the purview of science.
But that doesn't mean everything will one day be explained. And one thing that remains unexplained is our consciousness. The problem of qualia. Free will. The problem of suffering. We just don't understand those. Maybe they are simply epiphenomena, maybe they are false problems. But when it comes to software systems, we know with certainty that they don't have free will, don't experience qualia, pain or hope or I-ness.
Sure, it's a difference that disappears if one takes that leap of faith into computationalism. Then, to maintain integrity, one would have to show the same deference to these models as one shows to their fellow human. One would have to think hard about not over-working these already enslaved fellow beings. One would have to consider fighting for the rights of these models.
But that doesn't mean everything will one day be explained. And one thing that remains unexplained is our consciousness. The problem of qualia. Free will. The problem of suffering. We just don't understand those. Maybe they are simply epiphenomena, maybe they are false problems. But when it comes to software systems, we know with certainty that they don't have free will, don't experience qualia, pain or hope or I-ness.
Sure, it's a difference that disappears if one takes that leap of faith into computationalism. Then, to maintain integrity, one would have to show the same deference to these models as one shows to their fellow human. One would have to think hard about not over-working these already enslaved fellow beings. One would have to consider fighting for the rights of these models.
> Then, to maintain integrity, one would have to show the same deference to these models as one shows to their fellow human.
Except they’re not even remotely close to anything like human intelligence. As I wrote in another comment they are very capable systems, to the point where in some ways they show some level of elementary understanding, but in many forms of reasoning they are utterly and completely incapable. Assigning human equivalent cognitive status is patently absurd. And yes I am a physicalist and I see no reason why a computer system could not achieve human equivalent cognitive ability. These just aren’t that. They may be an important step towards it though.
Except they’re not even remotely close to anything like human intelligence. As I wrote in another comment they are very capable systems, to the point where in some ways they show some level of elementary understanding, but in many forms of reasoning they are utterly and completely incapable. Assigning human equivalent cognitive status is patently absurd. And yes I am a physicalist and I see no reason why a computer system could not achieve human equivalent cognitive ability. These just aren’t that. They may be an important step towards it though.
They might well be in a couple of years, once they become deeply integrated with symbolic techniques. It's already happening with plugins, chain-of-thought reasoning, self-reflection etc. Soon the illusion will be very convincing and hard to shake off. Yet to me, nothing essential will have changed, and the idea of treating these systems as our equals will remain just as patently absurd as before. I expect this will the physicalist position a much more fraught decision, because it will impose some hard limits on their interaction and use of these technologies on those who subscribe to it.
I don't think that's the correct take for the room. Say the human speaks english. If you asked them what the conversation was about, and they had the full resources of the room at their disposal could they tell you? No, because the room doesn't actually allow them to understand chinese, it's just a symbol lookup table. The lookup table doesn't mean the system understands chinese, just the relationship between symbols that can lead to a coherent output.
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What if the human learns all the rules? Then the system as a whole is the human.
Here's an example that I think garners more agreement that properties of a limit ("really understanding") don't necessarily mean that any path towards that limit has the properties of the limit. I think there's a lot of room for disagreement about whether this is a factually-accurate analogy and I'm not trying to argue either way on that, just trying to answer your question about how one might make these sorts of arguments if one has a certain belief about the facts.
Let's say we're trying to build a calculator that only needs to do integer addition. And we decide to build it by building a giant if-else chain that hardcodes the answer to each and every possible addition. And due to finite resources, we're going to hardcode all the additions of integers up to absolute value N, but we will increase N over time.
Everything you said applies equally to this situation: it quacks like a duck, and when we talk about things it can't do we have to continually move the goalposts each time a new version comes out. It also has the property that there is a "scaling law" that says that each time you double N you get predictably better performance from the system, and you can do this without bound and continually approach a limit where it can answer any question indistinguishably from something we might call "true understanding".
But I think it's a bit easier to agree that in this case that it's not "really doing" addition and is a bit short of our wish to have an artificial addition system. And if someone touts this system as the way to automate addition we might feel a bit irritated.
Again, many people will say that this is a bad analogy because LLMs operate quite differently, and I'm not trying to argue for or against that. Just trying to give my explanation for how a certain understanding of the facts can imply the kind of conclusion that you are trying to understand.
Let's say we're trying to build a calculator that only needs to do integer addition. And we decide to build it by building a giant if-else chain that hardcodes the answer to each and every possible addition. And due to finite resources, we're going to hardcode all the additions of integers up to absolute value N, but we will increase N over time.
Everything you said applies equally to this situation: it quacks like a duck, and when we talk about things it can't do we have to continually move the goalposts each time a new version comes out. It also has the property that there is a "scaling law" that says that each time you double N you get predictably better performance from the system, and you can do this without bound and continually approach a limit where it can answer any question indistinguishably from something we might call "true understanding".
But I think it's a bit easier to agree that in this case that it's not "really doing" addition and is a bit short of our wish to have an artificial addition system. And if someone touts this system as the way to automate addition we might feel a bit irritated.
Again, many people will say that this is a bad analogy because LLMs operate quite differently, and I'm not trying to argue for or against that. Just trying to give my explanation for how a certain understanding of the facts can imply the kind of conclusion that you are trying to understand.
I think what this points towards is that we care about the internal mechanism. If we prod it externally and it gives the wrong answer, then the internal mechanism is definitely wrong. But if we get the right answers and then open it up and find the internals are still wrong, it's still wrong.
This illuminates a contradiction: the walks like a duck thing is incompatible with the internals being a duck. If you see a creature with feathers that waddles and can fly, it might still be a robot when you open it. So your test cannot just rely on external tests. But you also want to create a definition of artificial intelligence that doesn't depend on being made of meat and electricity.
This illuminates a contradiction: the walks like a duck thing is incompatible with the internals being a duck. If you see a creature with feathers that waddles and can fly, it might still be a robot when you open it. So your test cannot just rely on external tests. But you also want to create a definition of artificial intelligence that doesn't depend on being made of meat and electricity.
> I think what this points towards is that we care about the internal mechanism.
The mechanism is what makes a system interesting.
In software this is why we develop libraries of algorithms and code we can reuse and compose into new solutions. The programmer is providing the intellectual flexibility, while the code is the set of capabilities. It’s why this is a superior approach, compared to building a single monolithic mass of procedural code from scratch in a single variable scope for every program we write.
Solutions matter because it’s not just about what a system can do now, it’s about what it can learn or be adapted to do next.
The mechanism is what makes a system interesting.
In software this is why we develop libraries of algorithms and code we can reuse and compose into new solutions. The programmer is providing the intellectual flexibility, while the code is the set of capabilities. It’s why this is a superior approach, compared to building a single monolithic mass of procedural code from scratch in a single variable scope for every program we write.
Solutions matter because it’s not just about what a system can do now, it’s about what it can learn or be adapted to do next.
I think @dvt's comment above is a good attempt at answering this question. I agree with him that intrinsic motivation and a capacity for suffering, hope and all the other emotions (which we share with pretty much all animals, if not plants too) are at the top of the list. Cleverness is there also, but not at the top of the list.
re: Calculator examples, I kinda see them both as information systems that achieve a result but there's a phase difference in where the information is stored.
Similar to how space is 4D such that with relativity going faster in a spatial dimension kind of "borrows" from the time dimension (in a hand wavy way).
By analogy, you can have something that's purely a lookup table, or on the other hand, completely based on an algorithm, and the full lookup table is kind of "borrowing" from the algorithmic dimension of the information system space and vice-verse the fully algorithmic version is borrowing from the hardcoded dimension of the information system space.
Under the condition that you're adding integers below N, then if you consider BOTH the (hardcoded, algorithmic) as a singular space (as with 4D space time) then they are equivalent.
Need to work on this theory further to make it more understandable, but I think this way about intelligence.
Intelligence sits as a pattern in the information system space that can range anywhere from hardcoded to algorithmic (if we choose to orthogonalize the space this way). But what actually matters is the system's future impact on it's local laws of physics, and for that purpose both implementations are equivalent.
Edit: Conversation with GPT-4 about this https://sharegpt.com/c/Sbs4XgI
Similar to how space is 4D such that with relativity going faster in a spatial dimension kind of "borrows" from the time dimension (in a hand wavy way).
By analogy, you can have something that's purely a lookup table, or on the other hand, completely based on an algorithm, and the full lookup table is kind of "borrowing" from the algorithmic dimension of the information system space and vice-verse the fully algorithmic version is borrowing from the hardcoded dimension of the information system space.
Under the condition that you're adding integers below N, then if you consider BOTH the (hardcoded, algorithmic) as a singular space (as with 4D space time) then they are equivalent.
Need to work on this theory further to make it more understandable, but I think this way about intelligence.
Intelligence sits as a pattern in the information system space that can range anywhere from hardcoded to algorithmic (if we choose to orthogonalize the space this way). But what actually matters is the system's future impact on it's local laws of physics, and for that purpose both implementations are equivalent.
Edit: Conversation with GPT-4 about this https://sharegpt.com/c/Sbs4XgI
The only thing that separates your mechanism for doing addition from what computers actually do is efficiency. Computers can only add numbers up to some fixed size, e.g. 64 bits, and you have to use repetition to add anything larger.
Does that mean computers are not "really doing" addition?
Does that mean computers are not "really doing" addition?
There’s a lot more different than efficiency. We can program computers with algorithms capable of computing any possible addition, the limitation being only the memory of the computer and time, not the algorithm itself. Those algorithms are genuinely doing addition in a way that a pre-computed lookup table is not. It’s the difference between computing an addition in your head and just remembering that 2 + 2 is 4.
What I find really entertaining is the "just predicting the next token" argument.
If just predicting the next token can produce similar or better results than the almighty human intelligence on some tasks, then maybe there's a bit of hubris in how smart we think we actually are.
If just predicting the next token can produce similar or better results than the almighty human intelligence on some tasks, then maybe there's a bit of hubris in how smart we think we actually are.
> If just predicting the next token can produce similar or better results than the almighty human intelligence on some tasks
But it's not better than almighty human intelligence, it _is_ human intelligence, because it was trained on a mass of some of the best human intelligence in all recorded history (I say this because the good stuff like Aristotle got preserved while the garbage disappeared (this was true until the recent internet age, in which garbage survives as well as the gold)).
> then maybe there's a bit of hubris in how smart we think we actually are
I feel like you could say this if ChatGPT or whatever obtained its knowledge some other way than direct guidance from humans, but since we hand-fed it the answers, it falls a little flat for me.
I'm open to persuasion.
But it's not better than almighty human intelligence, it _is_ human intelligence, because it was trained on a mass of some of the best human intelligence in all recorded history (I say this because the good stuff like Aristotle got preserved while the garbage disappeared (this was true until the recent internet age, in which garbage survives as well as the gold)).
> then maybe there's a bit of hubris in how smart we think we actually are
I feel like you could say this if ChatGPT or whatever obtained its knowledge some other way than direct guidance from humans, but since we hand-fed it the answers, it falls a little flat for me.
I'm open to persuasion.
chatgpt doesnt just feed us back answers we already taught it. It learned relationships and semantics so it can apply that knowledge to do something novel. For instance, I took the basic of a dream and told it to turn it into a short story. The short story wasn't bad. I said make it more exciting, it updated the story such that one of the cars exploded. I guess chatgpt learned excitement from michael bay.
(I'm going to be brusque for the sake of the argument, I very much could be wrong and I don't even know how much I believe of the argument I'm making.)
> chatgpt doesnt just feed us back answers we already taught it
True, there is some structure to the answers we already taught it that it statistically mimics as well.
> It learned relationships and semantics so it can apply that knowledge to do something novel
Can you provide an example of this novelty? I think we underestimate the depth and variety of things that humans have written about and put on the internet, and so while anything you ask ChatGPT to do might be outside of your own experience, it's highly likely that it's already been thought before and uploaded to the internet, and that ChatGPT is just parrotting back something to you that is very similar to what it has already seen.
This effect of ChatGPT having so much more experience/training data than any single human being such that it can convince any single human that it is original is an interesting one.
This is why I think, for example, that image generation will result in (a period of) "artistic inbreeding." Because there is so much that other humans have done that is outside of any individual's experience, we will accept e.g. Midjourney's output as something moving and original, when in reality it's just a slight variation on something that someone else has done before that we haven't seen.
(Again apologies for any rudeness, I respect your opinion and experiences and am enjoying the conversation.)
> chatgpt doesnt just feed us back answers we already taught it
True, there is some structure to the answers we already taught it that it statistically mimics as well.
> It learned relationships and semantics so it can apply that knowledge to do something novel
Can you provide an example of this novelty? I think we underestimate the depth and variety of things that humans have written about and put on the internet, and so while anything you ask ChatGPT to do might be outside of your own experience, it's highly likely that it's already been thought before and uploaded to the internet, and that ChatGPT is just parrotting back something to you that is very similar to what it has already seen.
This effect of ChatGPT having so much more experience/training data than any single human being such that it can convince any single human that it is original is an interesting one.
This is why I think, for example, that image generation will result in (a period of) "artistic inbreeding." Because there is so much that other humans have done that is outside of any individual's experience, we will accept e.g. Midjourney's output as something moving and original, when in reality it's just a slight variation on something that someone else has done before that we haven't seen.
(Again apologies for any rudeness, I respect your opinion and experiences and am enjoying the conversation.)
I took the basics of a dream I had, and asked it to turn it into a short story. the result was pretty good. Is it using stuff already to seed its responses? sure, but thats what we do to. Nothing you do or say wasn't taught to you. But these are not simply parroting responses.
I said this to chatgpt: I had a dream that me and my friend were in a car accident, and we had a choice in deciding how to use 1 hour. we could use it to live out our last final moments or spend that hour on trying to think of a solution to survive the wreck. turn this into a short story.
As they sat trapped in their overturned car, Maria and her best friend Rachel had a dilemma. They only had one hour left to live and had to choose how to spend it. Rachel suggested they spend their final moments together, talking about all their favorite memories. But Maria had a different idea. She proposed they use the hour to think of a solution to survive the wreck. Rachel was hesitant at first, but ultimately agreed. For the next hour, they brainstormed every possible escape plan they could think of. They tried pushing against the doors, breaking the windows, and even attempting to signal for help. Just as they were about to give up hope, Maria remembered a tool in the trunk of the car. She crawled over to retrieve it and used it to pry open the door. Rachel followed her lead, and they finally escaped the car just in time. As they stumbled away from the wreck, both girls were in shock that they had made it out alive. They hugged each other tightly, grateful for the hour they spent trying to find a solution instead of giving up. From that moment on, they made a promise to never take a single moment for granted.
I said this to chatgpt: I had a dream that me and my friend were in a car accident, and we had a choice in deciding how to use 1 hour. we could use it to live out our last final moments or spend that hour on trying to think of a solution to survive the wreck. turn this into a short story.
As they sat trapped in their overturned car, Maria and her best friend Rachel had a dilemma. They only had one hour left to live and had to choose how to spend it. Rachel suggested they spend their final moments together, talking about all their favorite memories. But Maria had a different idea. She proposed they use the hour to think of a solution to survive the wreck. Rachel was hesitant at first, but ultimately agreed. For the next hour, they brainstormed every possible escape plan they could think of. They tried pushing against the doors, breaking the windows, and even attempting to signal for help. Just as they were about to give up hope, Maria remembered a tool in the trunk of the car. She crawled over to retrieve it and used it to pry open the door. Rachel followed her lead, and they finally escaped the car just in time. As they stumbled away from the wreck, both girls were in shock that they had made it out alive. They hugged each other tightly, grateful for the hour they spent trying to find a solution instead of giving up. From that moment on, they made a promise to never take a single moment for granted.
> Nothing you do or say wasn't taught to you.
If nothing we do or say wasn't taught to us then where did all human knowledge come from in the first place? This doesn't hold up.
(Again, being direct for the sake of argument, please forgive any unkindness.)
If nothing we do or say wasn't taught to us then where did all human knowledge come from in the first place? This doesn't hold up.
(Again, being direct for the sake of argument, please forgive any unkindness.)
From our environment, genetics, and other people. We simply are able to take in more inputs (i.e. not just text) than LLMs.
I would agree that much more than we're usually ready to admit to ourselves is second-hand, but saying everything is going too far. Inventions and discoveries are happening all the time, at all scales.
Inventions and discoveries are basically a very advanced form of pattern recognition - seeing "interesting" regularities in some particular input where no-one has spotted them before.
And LLMs are capable of making discoveries in this sense, if you feed them data and ask to spot the regularities. They're not particularly good at it, but that's a different question from whether they're able to do it in principle.
And LLMs are capable of making discoveries in this sense, if you feed them data and ask to spot the regularities. They're not particularly good at it, but that's a different question from whether they're able to do it in principle.
Yes, in as far as LLMs can be said to make inventions and discoveries, this is clearly how they do it. And yes, these type of processes definitely play a big part in our human creative capacity. But to say this is all there is to it, is going too far in my opinion. We just don't know. There's still so much we don't understand about ourselves. We haven't designed ourselves after all, we just happened to "come to" one bright primeval day and since then we've been exploring and discovering ourselves. And again and again, we've found ourselves in that seductive spot where we thought we "got it" and there's nothing essential about ourselves we're still missing, only again and again to be proven wrong. Dogmas crumble, new dogmas coagulate, only to dissolve again. Or, we could use the more dignified word "paradigm".
I mean, to me at least, that is the definition of discovery. The exact process used to spot the pattern is an implementation detail.
And yes, I agree that we really just don't know too many things. But my impression is that we're overestimating just how complicated out behavior really is.
And yes, I agree that we really just don't know too many things. But my impression is that we're overestimating just how complicated out behavior really is.
Yes, but that dream? It could never have it. Sure, it can produce at times very convincing descriptions of supposed dreams, but not actually have the experience of dreaming. Because of that, there will always be ways it will eventually miss-step when trying to mimic human narratives.
Sorry about this, but I couldn't resist:
GTP4, rewrite the above message to be less brusque
I hope you don't mind me sharing a different perspective for the sake of discussion. I might be mistaken, and I'm not entirely sure how much I believe in the argument I'm presenting.
It's true that ChatGPT doesn't only provide answers based on what it has been taught, but it also uses the structure of those answers to create statistically similar responses. However, when it comes to demonstrating novelty, I think we might be underestimating the vast amount of information and variety that humans have written about and shared online. While anything we ask ChatGPT to do might be new to us personally, it's highly likely that it has already been thought of and documented online, and ChatGPT is simply providing a similar response based on its prior knowledge.
This phenomenon, where ChatGPT has significantly more training data and experience than any single human, leading to the illusion of originality, is quite intriguing. For instance, when it comes to image generation, we might experience a period of "artistic inbreeding" because we, as individuals, are not aware of everything others have done. We may perceive something like Midjourney's output as moving and original, when in reality, it could just be a slight variation of someone else's work that we haven't seen before.
Please don't take this as me being confrontational; I genuinely respect your opinion and experiences, and I'm enjoying our conversation.
GTP4, rewrite the above message to be less brusque
I hope you don't mind me sharing a different perspective for the sake of discussion. I might be mistaken, and I'm not entirely sure how much I believe in the argument I'm presenting.
It's true that ChatGPT doesn't only provide answers based on what it has been taught, but it also uses the structure of those answers to create statistically similar responses. However, when it comes to demonstrating novelty, I think we might be underestimating the vast amount of information and variety that humans have written about and shared online. While anything we ask ChatGPT to do might be new to us personally, it's highly likely that it has already been thought of and documented online, and ChatGPT is simply providing a similar response based on its prior knowledge.
This phenomenon, where ChatGPT has significantly more training data and experience than any single human, leading to the illusion of originality, is quite intriguing. For instance, when it comes to image generation, we might experience a period of "artistic inbreeding" because we, as individuals, are not aware of everything others have done. We may perceive something like Midjourney's output as moving and original, when in reality, it could just be a slight variation of someone else's work that we haven't seen before.
Please don't take this as me being confrontational; I genuinely respect your opinion and experiences, and I'm enjoying our conversation.
> But it's not better than almighty human intelligence, it _is_ human intelligence, because it was trained on a mass of some of the best human intelligence in all recorded history
Sure, I was saying "better" in the sense that if for X task, it can do better than Y% of humans.
> since we hand-fed it the answers, it falls a little flat for me
We didn't really hand-fed it any answers though did we? If you put a human in a white box all its life, with access to the entire dataset on a screen but no social interaction, nothing to see aside from the text, nothing to hear, nothing to feel, nothing to taste, etc, it'd be very impressed if they were then able to create answers that seem to display such thoughtful and complex understanding of the world.
Sure, I was saying "better" in the sense that if for X task, it can do better than Y% of humans.
> since we hand-fed it the answers, it falls a little flat for me
We didn't really hand-fed it any answers though did we? If you put a human in a white box all its life, with access to the entire dataset on a screen but no social interaction, nothing to see aside from the text, nothing to hear, nothing to feel, nothing to taste, etc, it'd be very impressed if they were then able to create answers that seem to display such thoughtful and complex understanding of the world.
I think the human would make a lot of the same fundamental errors LLMs make, for similar reasons. The level to which LLMs seem to understand the world is highly superficial because it is entirely linguistic. Also human written texts about the world and human affairs miss out huge swathes of contextual information that we safely assume actual humans have. LLMs don’t have any of that, which is why they fall flat on their faces in so many ways.
Absolutely. What’s fascinating is that they’re getting such good understanding of many things through just text. Multimodal models that can process text, images, sounds, video, etc. are gonna be very interesting for that very reason
I think it’s undeniable that LLMs encode knowledge, but the way they do so and what their answers imply, compared to what the same answer from a human would imply, are completely different.
For example if a human explains the process for solving a mathematical problem, we know that person knows how to solve that problem. That’s not necessarily true of an LLM. They can give such explanations because they have been trained on many texts explaining those procedures, therefore they can generate texts of that form. However texts containing an actual mathematical problem and the workings for solving it are a completely different class of text for an LLM. The probabilistic token weightings for the maths text explanation don’t help at all. So yes these are fascinating, knowledgeable and even in some ways very intelligent systems. However it a radically different form of intelligence from us, in ways we find difficult to reason about.
For example if a human explains the process for solving a mathematical problem, we know that person knows how to solve that problem. That’s not necessarily true of an LLM. They can give such explanations because they have been trained on many texts explaining those procedures, therefore they can generate texts of that form. However texts containing an actual mathematical problem and the workings for solving it are a completely different class of text for an LLM. The probabilistic token weightings for the maths text explanation don’t help at all. So yes these are fascinating, knowledgeable and even in some ways very intelligent systems. However it a radically different form of intelligence from us, in ways we find difficult to reason about.
Well it's like birds and airplanes. Do airplanes "fly" in the same sense that birds do? Of course not, birds flap their wings and airplanes need to be built, fueled and flown by humans. You could argue that the way birds fly is "more natural" or superior in some ways but I've yet to see a bird fly Mach 3.
If you replace the analogy with humans and LLMs, LLMs won't ever reason or understand things in the same way we do, but if/when their output gets much smarter than us across the board, will it really matter?
If you replace the analogy with humans and LLMs, LLMs won't ever reason or understand things in the same way we do, but if/when their output gets much smarter than us across the board, will it really matter?
I think the issue is there are good reasons to think LLMs architected and trained the way they are now can never approach human reasoning capability. That’s because the corpus of human written material is simply grossly inadequate to communicate or encode the knowledge necessary for that.
Our written material assumes huge swathes of contextual knowledge, real world experience, and human lived experience that LLMs don’t and can’t have. At least architected and trained as they are now.
Thats on top of the crippling inability LLMs have to generalise an ability to perform a task from the ability to generate a description of how to do the task. Plus many other similar limitations that would be inexplicable if displayed by a human.
Of course LLMs aren’t the final word in AI development. I think they’re a vitally important step towards general AI, and we’ll get there eventually as we develop ever more capable architectures.
Our written material assumes huge swathes of contextual knowledge, real world experience, and human lived experience that LLMs don’t and can’t have. At least architected and trained as they are now.
Thats on top of the crippling inability LLMs have to generalise an ability to perform a task from the ability to generate a description of how to do the task. Plus many other similar limitations that would be inexplicable if displayed by a human.
Of course LLMs aren’t the final word in AI development. I think they’re a vitally important step towards general AI, and we’ll get there eventually as we develop ever more capable architectures.
> LLMs architected and trained the way they are now can never approach human reasoning capability
Not sure if you’ve played with GPT-4 but honestly it’s getting there. If you take the bar exam, ChatGPT was in the bottom 10% of participants, GPT-4 is in the top 90%.
It obviously isn’t the ultimate test of reasoning/intelligence but I think we would agree that a human who’s in the top 90% is likely to be pretty smart.
> Of course LLMs aren’t the final word in AI development
Couldn’t agree more. AGI will come from plugging a few of these systems together.
Not sure if you’ve played with GPT-4 but honestly it’s getting there. If you take the bar exam, ChatGPT was in the bottom 10% of participants, GPT-4 is in the top 90%.
It obviously isn’t the ultimate test of reasoning/intelligence but I think we would agree that a human who’s in the top 90% is likely to be pretty smart.
> Of course LLMs aren’t the final word in AI development
Couldn’t agree more. AGI will come from plugging a few of these systems together.
GPT4 still suffers from the same limitations I outlined earlier though. For example that being able to explain how to do things is independent of being able to actually do them. That’s a crippling cognitive limitation. This is just not as obvious because for some tasks it’s been trained how to do them through different methods.
Let’s imagine a map of cognitive capabilities. Humans are a big area on that map. Previous AI systems were small dots or lines on that map, some of them like AlphaZero extending outside the human zone. ChatGPT is an archipelago of several decent sized blobs disconnected from each other, and some of those edge out lightly outside the human Zone. It’s better at some specific tasks than humans.
The problem is the sometimes large gaps between some of the blobs. Capacity at some tasks tell you nothing about its ability at what we would think of as closely related tasks for a human. For GPT4 even, these are utterly different tasks and if it can do them both, it can often do them for completely different reasons than a human does.
If you test it at say 10 tasks that all happen to fall within its capabilities, those widely separated blobs of ability, you’d think it was incredibly intelligent at a huge range of tasks, unaware of the gaps. With a human you’d know those areas would be connected. But with GPT they are not. It’s by probing the gaps where it fails that we begin to understand how much and in what ways it fundamentally differs from us.
This map is getting harder for outsiders to probe though, because OpenAI is papering over some gaps with tuned training. This is like adding some new blobs in a different colour. These appear to close some gaps and add new capabilities, but the systems in the model that implement those aren’t related to the features of the model that give it its other abilities.
Let’s imagine a map of cognitive capabilities. Humans are a big area on that map. Previous AI systems were small dots or lines on that map, some of them like AlphaZero extending outside the human zone. ChatGPT is an archipelago of several decent sized blobs disconnected from each other, and some of those edge out lightly outside the human Zone. It’s better at some specific tasks than humans.
The problem is the sometimes large gaps between some of the blobs. Capacity at some tasks tell you nothing about its ability at what we would think of as closely related tasks for a human. For GPT4 even, these are utterly different tasks and if it can do them both, it can often do them for completely different reasons than a human does.
If you test it at say 10 tasks that all happen to fall within its capabilities, those widely separated blobs of ability, you’d think it was incredibly intelligent at a huge range of tasks, unaware of the gaps. With a human you’d know those areas would be connected. But with GPT they are not. It’s by probing the gaps where it fails that we begin to understand how much and in what ways it fundamentally differs from us.
This map is getting harder for outsiders to probe though, because OpenAI is papering over some gaps with tuned training. This is like adding some new blobs in a different colour. These appear to close some gaps and add new capabilities, but the systems in the model that implement those aren’t related to the features of the model that give it its other abilities.
Thing is, they can still solve the problem, even if the problem was not one from its training set.
And, more importantly, they solve the problem much better if you tell them to reason about it in writing first before giving the final answer.
And, more importantly, they solve the problem much better if you tell them to reason about it in writing first before giving the final answer.
Yes I know, as I said they are very knowledgeable and in some ways very intelligent. We just need to bear in mind their processing architecture is radically different from our. This makes our intuitions about their abilities highly error prone.
Absolutely. The shoggoth metaphor is extremely apt here.
What I was specifically responding to is the claim that they can only solve certain kinds of problems because those kinds of problems (and their solutions) were in the training set. By now there's plenty of counter-examples of unique problems that are nevertheless solved. At which point I think we do have to call it "understanding" and "reasoning", even as we acknowledge that it is a very alien form of understanding and reasoning that we just barely managed to squeeze into something that kinda sorta feels humanish.
What I was specifically responding to is the claim that they can only solve certain kinds of problems because those kinds of problems (and their solutions) were in the training set. By now there's plenty of counter-examples of unique problems that are nevertheless solved. At which point I think we do have to call it "understanding" and "reasoning", even as we acknowledge that it is a very alien form of understanding and reasoning that we just barely managed to squeeze into something that kinda sorta feels humanish.
simonh says >"We just need to bear in mind their processing architecture is radically different from ours."<
The hardware architectures are certainly different but there is a possibility that at least parts of the "software" architectures may be remarkably similar.
Time and research will tell.
The hardware architectures are certainly different but there is a possibility that at least parts of the "software" architectures may be remarkably similar.
Time and research will tell.
[0]if we get a bit quantum (or God for some), then backtracking could happen by collapsing the dead-ends and "changing" history to stay with what turns out to be the solid plan. Could emergent conscience on AI's neurons do the planning and reasoning that it rather seems to be doing but ML experts will say it is not? If our conscience could by any chance reside not in the electrical currents of the wetware, could AI's reason also not reside in tokens? Is there some mysterious process possibly taking place and will philosophy probe it?
0: pasted from another thread
0: pasted from another thread
We've known for a long time that computers can do calculations far, far, far faster than us.
We continue to figure out new ways to make those calculations do more complicated things faster than humans.
What is intelligence beyond calculation is an ancient question, but not the one I'm most interested in at the moment, re: today's tools.
I'm curious right now about if there's meaning to other people in human creation vs automation creation. E.g. is there a meaningful difference between an algorithm curating a feed of human-made TikTok videos and an algorithm both curating and creating a feed of human-made TikTok videos.
Both qualitatively in terms of "would people engage with it to the same level" and quantitatively in terms of "how many new trends would emerge, how would they vary, how does that machine ecosystem of content generation behave compared to a human one" if you remove any human curation/training/feedback/nudging/etc from the flow beyond just "how many views/likes did you get?"
We continue to figure out new ways to make those calculations do more complicated things faster than humans.
What is intelligence beyond calculation is an ancient question, but not the one I'm most interested in at the moment, re: today's tools.
I'm curious right now about if there's meaning to other people in human creation vs automation creation. E.g. is there a meaningful difference between an algorithm curating a feed of human-made TikTok videos and an algorithm both curating and creating a feed of human-made TikTok videos.
Both qualitatively in terms of "would people engage with it to the same level" and quantitatively in terms of "how many new trends would emerge, how would they vary, how does that machine ecosystem of content generation behave compared to a human one" if you remove any human curation/training/feedback/nudging/etc from the flow beyond just "how many views/likes did you get?"
I think as soon as text2video gets really good (like midjourney level), there’s gonna be so much AI generated content that unless it’s all extremely good, human made content will be something people search specifically for.
As for curation, I think the success of TikTok proves that you don’t need that much data to pretty preceding pinpoint what someone wants to watch (or what will get them to spend the most time on the app at least).
As for curation, I think the success of TikTok proves that you don’t need that much data to pretty preceding pinpoint what someone wants to watch (or what will get them to spend the most time on the app at least).
Do you mean with humans generating the prompts or with some sort of no-human-in-the-loop "generate the text prompt to generate the video" automation?
I think a super accessible animation tool would get a lot of use and result in a lot of cool stuff, but it's the latter that I'm really curious about in terms of how people interact with it.
I think a super accessible animation tool would get a lot of use and result in a lot of cool stuff, but it's the latter that I'm really curious about in terms of how people interact with it.
I don’t think there’s anything making it impossible for actual intelligence to arise from a task as simple as “predicting the next token (to model human thought/speech/writing)” because with enough compute resources, smart AI implementations, and training that task basically would be optimized by becoming a general intelligence.
But it’s clear based on current implementations that once you work backwards from the knowledge that it’s “just predicting the next token” you can easily find situations in which the AI doesn’t demonstrate general intelligence. This is most obvious when it comes to math, but it’s also apparent in hallucinations and the model not being able to reason through/synthesize ideas very well, deviate from the script (instead of just answering a question with what it has already, in some cases it should not even try to answer and instead ask more clarifying questions). To be fair, there are plenty of humans with excellent writing or speaking skills that are bad at that kind of stuff too.
But it’s clear based on current implementations that once you work backwards from the knowledge that it’s “just predicting the next token” you can easily find situations in which the AI doesn’t demonstrate general intelligence. This is most obvious when it comes to math, but it’s also apparent in hallucinations and the model not being able to reason through/synthesize ideas very well, deviate from the script (instead of just answering a question with what it has already, in some cases it should not even try to answer and instead ask more clarifying questions). To be fair, there are plenty of humans with excellent writing or speaking skills that are bad at that kind of stuff too.
The problem is such an approach is limited by the content of the training texts. As I mentioned elsewhere, our written texts assume huge swathes of contextual and experiential information and knowledge that LLMs don’t have. It’s possible some of it might be inferred from the texts, but not all of it by a long shot.
If somehow you could generate a training text encoding a complete and thorough understanding of the physical world, human psychology and sociology, and reasoning then that might get you quite far. But the existing it even near future human textual corpus isn’t really that. Even then I still think you’d hit the limitations of the LLM cognitive architecture pretty hard.
If somehow you could generate a training text encoding a complete and thorough understanding of the physical world, human psychology and sociology, and reasoning then that might get you quite far. But the existing it even near future human textual corpus isn’t really that. Even then I still think you’d hit the limitations of the LLM cognitive architecture pretty hard.
simonh says >"The problem is such an approach is limited by the content of the training texts."<
Aside: I would like to see ChatGPTs with distinct training texts, e.g., a ChatGPTs trained on the "great books" of Western philosophy and science knowledge up to the time of Victorian England.
Aside: I would like to see ChatGPTs with distinct training texts, e.g., a ChatGPTs trained on the "great books" of Western philosophy and science knowledge up to the time of Victorian England.
That'd be like saying that search engines are smarter than the almighty human intelligence because they know the capitals of every country while most humans don't. No, it just has access to a lot of data near-instantaneously. Just like GPT-4 does. It's the enormity of compiled human knowledge that is "smart" in GPT-4. It absolutely is "just predicting the next token", and it turns out that's enough to be an astoundingly intelligent-seeming system when trained on thousands of years of human knowledge. Of course it is! It's like in Avatar: The Last Airbender when he consults with his thousand past-lives at once for wisdom. GPT-4 lets us consult with the collective knowledge of humanity! It's absolutely amazing! And it's also "just predicting the next token". Those are both true.
There's definitely hubris in how clever we consider ourselves. And encountering these AIs will hopefully bring a healthy adjustment there. But another manifestation of our hubris is the way we over-valorize our cleverness, making us feel oh so superior to other species, for example. Emotions, desires, agency, which we share with our animal cousins (and plants maybe also), but which software systems lack, are equally important to our life experience.
> I’m no philosopher, but if your argument hinges on moving goalposts until purity is reached, and your basic assumption is that the requirements for purity are infinite, then it’s not a very useful argument.
I imagine many definitions are initially rather broad and only get refined down over time. Laertius gives us a classic example:
> Plato defined man thus: “Man is a two-footed, featherless animal,” and was much praised for the definition; so Diogenes plucked a cock and brought it into his school, and said, “This is Plato’s man.” On which account this addition was made to the definition, “With broad flat nails.”
I don’t think it’s correct to think of that as infinitely moving goalposts, however. More that the weakness of definitions isn’t always immediately transparent.
I imagine many definitions are initially rather broad and only get refined down over time. Laertius gives us a classic example:
> Plato defined man thus: “Man is a two-footed, featherless animal,” and was much praised for the definition; so Diogenes plucked a cock and brought it into his school, and said, “This is Plato’s man.” On which account this addition was made to the definition, “With broad flat nails.”
I don’t think it’s correct to think of that as infinitely moving goalposts, however. More that the weakness of definitions isn’t always immediately transparent.
> I cannot see that it matters if a computer understands something.
I am not sure they can, but the difference is profound and material. A machine that actually understands, like a human being, is not going to be (can not be) entirely truthful or transparent. There will be private inner thoughts, idea formation, and possibly even willful intent, as a direct consequence of understanding. And the nature of interactions, regardless of superficial similarity, shifts from one of utility to relationship. For example, we would care to know if e.g. the systems entrusted with apocalyptic deterent forces are mechanisms or organisms.
Please note that not a single one of us has ever interacted with any intelligent life form lacking a sense of self, or an ego. Thus, all our sensory registers of another 'intelligent being' are learned in a context of the implicit 'this other is like me'. We are not equipped to distinguish or articulate intelligence (in the abstract) merely based on sensory information. Note that even non-verbal communication, such as jabbing a friend in the ribs, are all learned to have a certain meaning in that very same context of implicits, and any mechanism that mimicks them (via training) will be afforded the same projection of the implicit. I do not believe there is, in fact, any non-destructive test of determining 'consciousness' in an entity. (Destructive, since there may be long running tests of a subject than can be shown to be probably accurate, possibly via creating situational problems involving survival, and unexpected circumstances.)
Ask yourself what is it that convinces you that the last person you spoke with (in real life) was actually conscious? I assert that the entire matter is a 'fictional certainty' based on assumption of shared nature. "They are conscious because I am".
I am not sure they can, but the difference is profound and material. A machine that actually understands, like a human being, is not going to be (can not be) entirely truthful or transparent. There will be private inner thoughts, idea formation, and possibly even willful intent, as a direct consequence of understanding. And the nature of interactions, regardless of superficial similarity, shifts from one of utility to relationship. For example, we would care to know if e.g. the systems entrusted with apocalyptic deterent forces are mechanisms or organisms.
Please note that not a single one of us has ever interacted with any intelligent life form lacking a sense of self, or an ego. Thus, all our sensory registers of another 'intelligent being' are learned in a context of the implicit 'this other is like me'. We are not equipped to distinguish or articulate intelligence (in the abstract) merely based on sensory information. Note that even non-verbal communication, such as jabbing a friend in the ribs, are all learned to have a certain meaning in that very same context of implicits, and any mechanism that mimicks them (via training) will be afforded the same projection of the implicit. I do not believe there is, in fact, any non-destructive test of determining 'consciousness' in an entity. (Destructive, since there may be long running tests of a subject than can be shown to be probably accurate, possibly via creating situational problems involving survival, and unexpected circumstances.)
Ask yourself what is it that convinces you that the last person you spoke with (in real life) was actually conscious? I assert that the entire matter is a 'fictional certainty' based on assumption of shared nature. "They are conscious because I am".
I'm not sure many people take the Chinese Room argument seriously these days. I mean it basically proposes a room that is equivalent to a lookup table and says it can't understand much hence computers in general can't understand. The "hence..." bit makes no sense really.
> It seems to me to posit that to understand requires that the understandee is human.
Here's a thought experiment. Suppose we make first contact tomorrow, and we meet some intelligent aliens. What are some questions you would ask them? How would you decide on their sentience or understanding?
Sentience involves goal-seeking, understanding, sensory inputs, first-personal mental states (things like pain, happiness, sadness, depression, love, etc.), a sense of what philosophers like Elizabeth Anscombe call I-ness, etc. Most of this stuff, to me, seems like is language-agnostic. Even a baby that can't speak feels pain or happiness. Even a dog feels anxiety or affection.
LLMs are a cute parlor trick, but a phantasm nonetheless.
Here's a thought experiment. Suppose we make first contact tomorrow, and we meet some intelligent aliens. What are some questions you would ask them? How would you decide on their sentience or understanding?
Sentience involves goal-seeking, understanding, sensory inputs, first-personal mental states (things like pain, happiness, sadness, depression, love, etc.), a sense of what philosophers like Elizabeth Anscombe call I-ness, etc. Most of this stuff, to me, seems like is language-agnostic. Even a baby that can't speak feels pain or happiness. Even a dog feels anxiety or affection.
LLMs are a cute parlor trick, but a phantasm nonetheless.
There's no denying LLMs are anything but sentient however is sentience really needed for intelligence? I feel like if we can have machines that are X% smarter than a human could ever get for any given task, it'd be a much better outcome for us if they were not sentient.
Does that mean sentient beings need to have had the evolutionary history that people have had? After all why would aliens have feelings like we have feelings? Don't we have feelings because either it was useful to our ancestors, or they are a spandrel of something that was?
Maybe that's all there is to it. But maybe not. These questions are not settled. It might seem obvious to you, but it doesn't seem so to me. Check out some of my other comments in this thread if you'd like to understand where my reservations come from.
> if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, and your only need is for it to quack and walk like a duck, then it doesn’t matter if it’s actually a duck or not for all intents and purposes.
This isn't true. If a plane flies like a bird and you only need it for flying it doesn't then follow that a plane is a bird "for all intents and purposes".
This isn't true. If a plane flies like a bird and you only need it for flying it doesn't then follow that a plane is a bird "for all intents and purposes".
The emphasis on “for all intents and purposes” is important. If you specify requirements you specify them for your intent and for your purpose.
Requiring that something fly and that something be a plane are two different things with only minor overlap. If all you require is something that flies, then a dragonfly matches your requirements exactly as much as an apache helicopter does.
Requiring that something fly and that something be a plane are two different things with only minor overlap. If all you require is something that flies, then a dragonfly matches your requirements exactly as much as an apache helicopter does.
I have tried multiple times to use Chatgpt to generate Unreal c++ code. It does not do.
It spits out class names for slate objects, that inherit from other slate objects. Chatgpt doesn't understand inheritance. It just guesses what might fit inside a parameter grouping, and never suggests something with the right class type.
For my use case, it has never quacked like a duck, so to speak. It never performed, the word that might cover the concept of generating output without understanding it.
We agree on the value of computers understanding versus performing... only as much you need understanding to make it perform.
Predicting words alone does not cut the mustard, some structural depth or validating maps or some new concept is needed to sure up the wild horsepower in ChatGPT.
It must understand/have structure, or at least use a crutch to get it over the finish line..
It spits out class names for slate objects, that inherit from other slate objects. Chatgpt doesn't understand inheritance. It just guesses what might fit inside a parameter grouping, and never suggests something with the right class type.
For my use case, it has never quacked like a duck, so to speak. It never performed, the word that might cover the concept of generating output without understanding it.
We agree on the value of computers understanding versus performing... only as much you need understanding to make it perform.
Predicting words alone does not cut the mustard, some structural depth or validating maps or some new concept is needed to sure up the wild horsepower in ChatGPT.
It must understand/have structure, or at least use a crutch to get it over the finish line..
Yes, in this instance I understand failings of today (though copilot has a much better hit rate, and at the moment it’s a great augmentation to coding if you treat it like an enthusiastic intern).
My question is about the future. The argument goes that a machine can never understand Chinese, even if it is capable of interpreting Chinese and responding to or acting on the input perfectly every time. My reply is that, if it acts as if it understands Chinese in every situation, then there’s no measurable way of distinguishing it from understanding.
It’s kind of like the whole string theory vs SUSY vs… argument in physics. If the only outcomes are things that agree with the Standard Model in all measurable aspects, and don’t provide any measurable distinction, then for all intents and purposes they don’t matter. That’s why their active areas of research are looking for the measurable distinctions.
FWIW, supersymmetry models predict measurable things (that so far have only ruled out those models when tested) but have applications elsewhere. String theory research has had implications in mathematics, condensed matter, and a bunch of other places. They’re useful.
But that’s beside the point, because the premise of the Chinese room problem is that there exists a machine that passes all scenarios, where no measurable difference can be found, and that this machine does not understand Chinese.
My question is about the future. The argument goes that a machine can never understand Chinese, even if it is capable of interpreting Chinese and responding to or acting on the input perfectly every time. My reply is that, if it acts as if it understands Chinese in every situation, then there’s no measurable way of distinguishing it from understanding.
It’s kind of like the whole string theory vs SUSY vs… argument in physics. If the only outcomes are things that agree with the Standard Model in all measurable aspects, and don’t provide any measurable distinction, then for all intents and purposes they don’t matter. That’s why their active areas of research are looking for the measurable distinctions.
FWIW, supersymmetry models predict measurable things (that so far have only ruled out those models when tested) but have applications elsewhere. String theory research has had implications in mathematics, condensed matter, and a bunch of other places. They’re useful.
But that’s beside the point, because the premise of the Chinese room problem is that there exists a machine that passes all scenarios, where no measurable difference can be found, and that this machine does not understand Chinese.
> My reply is that, if it acts as if it understands Chinese in every situation, then there’s no measurable way of distinguishing it from understanding.
I'm not sure if you understood the argument. The argument isn't asserting that there is a measurable way of distinguishing it, it's actually claiming that regardless of how well it seems like it understands Chinese, it doesn't actually understand Chinese. It's about intentionality and consciousness.
I'm not sure if you understood the argument. The argument isn't asserting that there is a measurable way of distinguishing it, it's actually claiming that regardless of how well it seems like it understands Chinese, it doesn't actually understand Chinese. It's about intentionality and consciousness.
The argument is that the man inside the room doesn't understand Chinese. The entire system still obviously and demonstrably does.
In a chatbot, the man inside the room is the LLM, but the whole system is not just the LLM - it's the whole setup that picks generated tokens and feeds them back into the input as a loop. And it demonstrably understands what you tell it, because it can carry out instructions, even extremely convoluted ones or using substitute words that are not part of its training set.
In a chatbot, the man inside the room is the LLM, but the whole system is not just the LLM - it's the whole setup that picks generated tokens and feeds them back into the input as a loop. And it demonstrably understands what you tell it, because it can carry out instructions, even extremely convoluted ones or using substitute words that are not part of its training set.
You are entirely correct: I do not understand the argument - or, rather, the relevance of it in any applied situation.
In effect, my argument is that in order for you to require it to understand something, you require it to understand that thing for a reason. If it acts like it understands that thing under all probing, then your requirement is satisfied - the question about whether it truly understands the thing is moot, because it fulfils the requirement.
In effect, my argument is that in order for you to require it to understand something, you require it to understand that thing for a reason. If it acts like it understands that thing under all probing, then your requirement is satisfied - the question about whether it truly understands the thing is moot, because it fulfils the requirement.
It's hard to keep this theoretical. Yes a machine is just a machine.
Defining a machine to be conscious, allows the individual to soak their mind in code and silicon as a receptacle for their spirit.
It creates a pull into a 'second mind'. Anybody who believes this is likely to invest heavily in the maintenance of new technology.
A 'conscious machine', creates an uneasy feeling that we should work to embed our spirit, knowledge, intellect into flipped bits, like expectant mothers. That we should work for the machine, and to the ends of the machine.
And that machine is somehow defined-to-be or a naturally, consciously alive (to a large or small degree). It is said to have a mind worthy of a person's professional output and it can hold the power of a marginally believable conversation.
While all of these described properties are vaguely plausible, it does nothing to help me understand the meaning of a technology, and only benefits those looking to create a fevor around a new tech product.
Describing chatgpt as a stochastic parrot or chinese room grants me a metaphor or analogy for the inner functions of the tech. It also lets me see, or otherwise guesstimate the products abilities clearly, without the belief-as-marketing hype.
I can take the stochastic parrot metaphor, to an article about LLMs and understand in a couple of days what took years of research to create.
Following the belief of computing as real human intelligence and that human intelligence is fundamentally mathematical, requires on some level submission of your mind to a machine that has it's own goals programmed in by someone else.
This centuries-long process of trying to encode and store all human knowledge behind the secure walls of complex coded signs.. and it's advocates for that process, create a subtle and deep twinge of future melancholy or dread or something. The idea that all written/typed meaning will be accessible only by the spiritual power brokers, and not our sons.
No. On some level, machines are just machines, like an abacus or a weaving loom. It can host concepts in the same way that a weaving loom is 'intelligent'. It holds it's shape, abstractions and functions by the laws of physics/metaphysics and according to my human dictates.
You follow the raven into the computers-are-conscious dream at your own risk. Computers are leaning towards controlling people rather than emancipating them. Leaning very hard in that direction. Do we want that? Freedom of mind and meaning is valueable.
Defining a machine to be conscious, allows the individual to soak their mind in code and silicon as a receptacle for their spirit.
It creates a pull into a 'second mind'. Anybody who believes this is likely to invest heavily in the maintenance of new technology.
A 'conscious machine', creates an uneasy feeling that we should work to embed our spirit, knowledge, intellect into flipped bits, like expectant mothers. That we should work for the machine, and to the ends of the machine.
And that machine is somehow defined-to-be or a naturally, consciously alive (to a large or small degree). It is said to have a mind worthy of a person's professional output and it can hold the power of a marginally believable conversation.
While all of these described properties are vaguely plausible, it does nothing to help me understand the meaning of a technology, and only benefits those looking to create a fevor around a new tech product.
Describing chatgpt as a stochastic parrot or chinese room grants me a metaphor or analogy for the inner functions of the tech. It also lets me see, or otherwise guesstimate the products abilities clearly, without the belief-as-marketing hype.
I can take the stochastic parrot metaphor, to an article about LLMs and understand in a couple of days what took years of research to create.
Following the belief of computing as real human intelligence and that human intelligence is fundamentally mathematical, requires on some level submission of your mind to a machine that has it's own goals programmed in by someone else.
This centuries-long process of trying to encode and store all human knowledge behind the secure walls of complex coded signs.. and it's advocates for that process, create a subtle and deep twinge of future melancholy or dread or something. The idea that all written/typed meaning will be accessible only by the spiritual power brokers, and not our sons.
No. On some level, machines are just machines, like an abacus or a weaving loom. It can host concepts in the same way that a weaving loom is 'intelligent'. It holds it's shape, abstractions and functions by the laws of physics/metaphysics and according to my human dictates.
You follow the raven into the computers-are-conscious dream at your own risk. Computers are leaning towards controlling people rather than emancipating them. Leaning very hard in that direction. Do we want that? Freedom of mind and meaning is valueable.
Yeah, I asked it to write some relatively simple Zig and it produced a weird mix of Zig and C. It just made stuff up, fake it until you make it style.
I don't know if I take the Chinese Room scenario seriously, it's a little hard to think about. For me the key is that an LLM (and maybe the Chinese room?) is only trained on text, and therefore its entire "universe" is merely representational. To the LLM there is no difference between the color blue and the word "blue", or a dog and the word "dog". People understand that a word is a provisional marker for something with almost infinite complexity, and when a word fails to meet the goals of the person, the word is discarded, amended, or elaborated until it expresses the thing which has heretofore been unexpressed. For an LLM there is no deeper world to access beyond text.
I don't think an intelligence needs to be human, and it should be physically possible to create an intelligence which is synthetic. But in order to call the intelligence "general", and to rely on it for the purposes that designation implies, it would need to be able to successfully navigate the world, which requires access to that world and the use of the world as its own model, rather than the much simpler and coarser intermediary of text. In order to claim that an LLM can fully navigate the world after being trained on pure text, we would have to believe that all our writings across history have exhausted what there is to say about the world. This is not to say an LLM cannot be useful for some purposes, but there will be key ways in which they fail because they have no sense of meaning or what the world is like. Whether consciousness is required to solve this I don't know, but we simply haven't begun to approach a system that can meaningfully address the world as a world.
I don't think an intelligence needs to be human, and it should be physically possible to create an intelligence which is synthetic. But in order to call the intelligence "general", and to rely on it for the purposes that designation implies, it would need to be able to successfully navigate the world, which requires access to that world and the use of the world as its own model, rather than the much simpler and coarser intermediary of text. In order to claim that an LLM can fully navigate the world after being trained on pure text, we would have to believe that all our writings across history have exhausted what there is to say about the world. This is not to say an LLM cannot be useful for some purposes, but there will be key ways in which they fail because they have no sense of meaning or what the world is like. Whether consciousness is required to solve this I don't know, but we simply haven't begun to approach a system that can meaningfully address the world as a world.
Here's GPT output that demonstrates that it doesn't reflect on its text: «GPT Chat: You are right, I apologize for the confusion in my previous responses. The corrected explanation is:
The pattern is counting the number of closed spaces in each letter of the spelled-out number. A closed space is any enclosed space in a letter, such as in the letters "a", "b", "d", "e", etc.
Following the pattern:
- one -> 2 (there are closed spaces in the letters "n" and "e") - two -> 1 (there is a closed space in the letter "o") - three -> 2 (there are closed spaces in the letters "h" and "e") - four -> 1 (there is a closed space in the letter "o") - five -> 1 (there is a closed space in the letter "e") - six -> 0 (there are no closed spaces in the letters) - seven -> 2 (there are closed spaces in the letters "e" and "n") - eight -> 1 (there is a closed space in the letter "g") - nine -> 1 (there is a closed space in the letter "e") - ten -> 1 (there is a closed space in the letter "b") - eleven -> 3 (there are closed spaces in the letters "e", "l", and "v") - twelve -> 2 (there are closed spaces in the letters "b" and "d") - thirteen -> 2 (there are closed spaces in the letters "b" and "d")
Each item follows the pattern, as the number of closed spaces in their letters matches the corresponding number in the pattern.
The whole sequence is:
one -> 2 two -> 1 three -> 2 four -> 1 five -> 1 six -> 0 seven -> 2 eight -> 1 nine -> 1 ten -> 1 eleven -> 3 twelve -> 2 thirteen -> 2 ...»
It is clear the model doesn't know what it is talking about.
The pattern is counting the number of closed spaces in each letter of the spelled-out number. A closed space is any enclosed space in a letter, such as in the letters "a", "b", "d", "e", etc.
Following the pattern:
- one -> 2 (there are closed spaces in the letters "n" and "e") - two -> 1 (there is a closed space in the letter "o") - three -> 2 (there are closed spaces in the letters "h" and "e") - four -> 1 (there is a closed space in the letter "o") - five -> 1 (there is a closed space in the letter "e") - six -> 0 (there are no closed spaces in the letters) - seven -> 2 (there are closed spaces in the letters "e" and "n") - eight -> 1 (there is a closed space in the letter "g") - nine -> 1 (there is a closed space in the letter "e") - ten -> 1 (there is a closed space in the letter "b") - eleven -> 3 (there are closed spaces in the letters "e", "l", and "v") - twelve -> 2 (there are closed spaces in the letters "b" and "d") - thirteen -> 2 (there are closed spaces in the letters "b" and "d")
Each item follows the pattern, as the number of closed spaces in their letters matches the corresponding number in the pattern.
The whole sequence is:
one -> 2 two -> 1 three -> 2 four -> 1 five -> 1 six -> 0 seven -> 2 eight -> 1 nine -> 1 ten -> 1 eleven -> 3 twelve -> 2 thirteen -> 2 ...»
It is clear the model doesn't know what it is talking about.
Anything having to do with shapes or spatial relationships seems to befuddle GPT-3.5. GPT-4 is significantly better but it's clear that it still struggles with it. As far as shapes of the letters in particular go, you can ask it to draw them using SVG or <canvas> and see what comes out.
Here's a different example involving dataset analysis with GPT-4 that required it to analyze its own previous outputs to find and correct mistakes and form a new hypothesis:
https://gist.github.com/int19h/cd1d1598f91e8ba92dd8e80bd5d21...
Here's a different example involving dataset analysis with GPT-4 that required it to analyze its own previous outputs to find and correct mistakes and form a new hypothesis:
https://gist.github.com/int19h/cd1d1598f91e8ba92dd8e80bd5d21...
Isn't the whole point of Searle raising the Chinese Rooom argument exactly so that these kinds of things can be debated?
This is also my interpretation of the Chinese Room.
Norvig and Chomsky really got into this type of argument, though maybe it’s a stretch to say it’s this exact one; see Norvig’s side here: https://norvig.com/chomsky.html
Norvig and Chomsky really got into this type of argument, though maybe it’s a stretch to say it’s this exact one; see Norvig’s side here: https://norvig.com/chomsky.html
I literally lost a friend of thirty years yesterday because she is wedded to the Chinese Room analogy so fiercely, she refuses to engage on the subject at all.
For all the terrible things people worry about ChatGPT doing, this was not one that I thought I was going to have to deal with.
(edit: ChatGPT was not involved at all, but when I suggested she give it a try to see for herself, that was the end of it.)
For all the terrible things people worry about ChatGPT doing, this was not one that I thought I was going to have to deal with.
(edit: ChatGPT was not involved at all, but when I suggested she give it a try to see for herself, that was the end of it.)
How can an disagreement over GPT possibly be something to end a friendship over?
This sounds like you said "I cannot possibly be friends with someone who does not believe that LLMs are emerging AGI!", and people read it like that and are downvoting you.
I'm gonna assume the situation was more complex, but still find it hard to imagine, how a disagreement over such an academic topic could end up destroying a friendship.
This sounds like you said "I cannot possibly be friends with someone who does not believe that LLMs are emerging AGI!", and people read it like that and are downvoting you.
I'm gonna assume the situation was more complex, but still find it hard to imagine, how a disagreement over such an academic topic could end up destroying a friendship.
It was a complex situation to be sure.
I only shared the story to illustrate how personally people are taking these discussions. I really felt like I was being very neutral and just sharing my enthusiasm. It was entirely unwelcome, apparently.
If there's a lesson to be learned it's that people's tempers over these issues may be hotter than they appear.
I can barely speak with my artist friends on the issue these days due to their generative AI fears. Their emotions are completely intractable on the subject: AI art is theft. Period.
I only shared the story to illustrate how personally people are taking these discussions. I really felt like I was being very neutral and just sharing my enthusiasm. It was entirely unwelcome, apparently.
If there's a lesson to be learned it's that people's tempers over these issues may be hotter than they appear.
I can barely speak with my artist friends on the issue these days due to their generative AI fears. Their emotions are completely intractable on the subject: AI art is theft. Period.
If are is a major part of someone's identity (strongly implied by calling them an "artist"), then it's hardly surprising that they would feel threatened and react emotionally to something that massively disrupts the creation of art and the viability of making a living from it.
I'm old enough to have had my design and publishing career evaporate underneath my feet because newsprint has mostly been replaced by the internet. I'm even old enough that I was part of replacing other people's careers with technology during the desktop publishing revolution. I remember when graphics tablets became a thing and how traditional pen and brush artists cried, "unfair!"
I always felt empathy for them, even back then. I feel empathy for my artist friends as well.
How can we ever have a better future if we keep trying to prevent change from disrupting our careers? In my experience, I've seen a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth, but these changes have always come no matter how hard people fought. On the other hand, I see people who try to adapt to these changes do quite well.
It's the part where I watch them hide their head in the sand that bothers me, not their anger. I want them to succeed. I think they have great eyes for color and line and those things are still super-valid long after the generative AI has replaced the pen and brush.
I don't want to watch my artist friends suffer. I am old enough to know that the effort to stop generative AI is almost certainly going to fail (just as all the previous efforts to prevent change failed), and it is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness.
The only constant is change.
I always felt empathy for them, even back then. I feel empathy for my artist friends as well.
How can we ever have a better future if we keep trying to prevent change from disrupting our careers? In my experience, I've seen a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth, but these changes have always come no matter how hard people fought. On the other hand, I see people who try to adapt to these changes do quite well.
It's the part where I watch them hide their head in the sand that bothers me, not their anger. I want them to succeed. I think they have great eyes for color and line and those things are still super-valid long after the generative AI has replaced the pen and brush.
I don't want to watch my artist friends suffer. I am old enough to know that the effort to stop generative AI is almost certainly going to fail (just as all the previous efforts to prevent change failed), and it is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness.
The only constant is change.
JeJie says >"Their emotions are completely intractable on the subject: AI art is theft. Period."<
Then the only true artist would be one who has never seen art before except his/her own. The correction of your friends' belief would be that "ALL art is theft. Period."
Then the only true artist would be one who has never seen art before except his/her own. The correction of your friends' belief would be that "ALL art is theft. Period."
You blew up a 30 year friendship over an...analogy?
I didn't! Someone else did it to me. I was trying desperately not to.
(edit: This is the kind of stuff I think my friends are watching and being informed by [0] as it was what they are posting in our common areas.)
[0]: https://youtu.be/ro130m-f_yk
(edit: This is the kind of stuff I think my friends are watching and being informed by [0] as it was what they are posting in our common areas.)
[0]: https://youtu.be/ro130m-f_yk
Why does it upset you if they disagree with you on this?
It's not that they disagree with me, as there were many things we agreed on. I have read over it and it seems that they don't respect what I believe so much that their example of how they felt was this angry shouting man. But again, I was not the person who ended the friendship.
In short, I'm upset that a person I thought was a friend disrespected my opinion about something so much, she stopped being my friend.
In short, I'm upset that a person I thought was a friend disrespected my opinion about something so much, she stopped being my friend.
You're talking about intelligence - GPT doesn't quack at all. It clearly is not a duck.
On the other hand, many people who are not ready to change, who do not have the skills or who cannot afford to reeducate are threatened.
That's me. After programming since the '80s, I'm just so tired. So much work, so much progress, so many dreams lived or shattered. Only to end up here at this strange local maximum, with so much potential, destined to forever run in place by the powers that be. The fundamentals formula for intelligence and even consciousness materializing before us as the world burns. No help coming from above, so support coming from below, surrounded by everyone who doesn't get it, who will never get it. Not utopia, not dystopia, just anhedonia as the running in place grows faster, more frantic. UBI forever on the horizon, countless elites working tirelessly to raise the retirement age, a status quo that never ceases to divide us. AI just another tool in their arsenal to other and subjugate and profit from. I wonder if a day will ever come when tech helps the people in between in a tangible way to put money in their pocket, food in their belly, time in their day - independent of their volition - for dignity and love and because it's the right thing to do. Or is it already too late? I don't even know anymore. I don't know anything anymore.
That's me. After programming since the '80s, I'm just so tired. So much work, so much progress, so many dreams lived or shattered. Only to end up here at this strange local maximum, with so much potential, destined to forever run in place by the powers that be. The fundamentals formula for intelligence and even consciousness materializing before us as the world burns. No help coming from above, so support coming from below, surrounded by everyone who doesn't get it, who will never get it. Not utopia, not dystopia, just anhedonia as the running in place grows faster, more frantic. UBI forever on the horizon, countless elites working tirelessly to raise the retirement age, a status quo that never ceases to divide us. AI just another tool in their arsenal to other and subjugate and profit from. I wonder if a day will ever come when tech helps the people in between in a tangible way to put money in their pocket, food in their belly, time in their day - independent of their volition - for dignity and love and because it's the right thing to do. Or is it already too late? I don't even know anymore. I don't know anything anymore.
Random human chiming in. This sounds like a lot of anxiety, something between FUD and FOMO. FUDMO?
Seriously tho, taking some time to get away from it would be good. Ignorance is bliss, this too shall pass etc.
(btw nice piece of writing, you should do it more often!)
Seriously tho, taking some time to get away from it would be good. Ignorance is bliss, this too shall pass etc.
(btw nice piece of writing, you should do it more often!)
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...
In the long run tech does a bit too well with "food in their belly" to the point that obesity is the main problem in the English speaking world.
As to programming it's quite cool getting chat GTP to write code and stuff. If you can't beat it make use of it I guess.
In the long run tech does a bit too well with "food in their belly" to the point that obesity is the main problem in the English speaking world.
As to programming it's quite cool getting chat GTP to write code and stuff. If you can't beat it make use of it I guess.
All the while housing, healthcare, education, and the things that matter once you've achieved food prosperity are disappearing at a rapid rate. This makes people turn to their baser needs more often, food and pornography and other stimulus.
It sounds like your mindset is the root of your struggles. Embracing change and adapting to new technologies has always been crucial in our industry. Instead of waiting for help from others, take control and collaborate with like-minded people. If you don't like the status quo, work toward changing it.
I think this is a bit hard .. and also unfair to repeat that embrace-change-mantra, because what he says is as absurd as at the same time totally true (:
I'd hope some of us would just be there in 60 years to just tell the future: "Heee just embrace it, ya know" .. nuff said.
I'd hope some of us would just be there in 60 years to just tell the future: "Heee just embrace it, ya know" .. nuff said.
This is confusing, using the semantic vectors arithmetic of embeddings is not very relevant to transformers and its completely missing the word 'attention'. I don't think transformers are that difficult to explain to people , but it is hard to explain "why" they work. But i think it's important for everyone to look under the hood and know that there are no demons underneath.
I was trying to keep the article at a level that everyone understands, from middle school up. I thought about going a bit deeper in the structure and mentioning attention, but my problem is that the intuitive concept of "attention" is quite different from the mathematical reality of an attention layer, and I'm sure I would have lost quite a few people there. It's always a trade-off :)
Indeed the word 'attention' implies some active process, which is also unfortunate, because it is really similarity maps over long ranges. This process apparenty creates a cross-reference maps of items that are commonly co-activated. But then what do the different heads do? Some kind of different "modalities of cross-reference"?
I struggle to understand why this thing works the way it does. It's possible that Vaswani et al. have made one of the greatest discoveries of this century that solved the language problem in an unintuitive, and yet very unappreciated way. It's also possible that there are other architectures that can simulate the same level of intelligence with such large numbers of parameters.
I think you re right that it's not intuitive, it's like basic arithmetic is laughing at us
I struggle to understand why this thing works the way it does. It's possible that Vaswani et al. have made one of the greatest discoveries of this century that solved the language problem in an unintuitive, and yet very unappreciated way. It's also possible that there are other architectures that can simulate the same level of intelligence with such large numbers of parameters.
I think you re right that it's not intuitive, it's like basic arithmetic is laughing at us
> I struggle to understand why this thing works the way it does.
I'm not in this field but have recently found myself going on the deepest dive possible into it as my small brain can absorb.
I now know about (on a surface level) neural networks, transformers, attention mechanisms, vectors, maticies, tokenization, loss functions and all sorts of other crazy stuff.
I come out of this realizing that there are some incredibly brilliant minds behind this. I knew AI was a complex subject but not on the level I've learned about now. To get what is essentially matrix multiplications to learn complex patterns and relationships in language is mind-blowing.
And it's creative. It can have a rap battle with an alter-ego, host a quiz party with other AIs of varying personalities, co-author a short story with me, respond to me only in emojis. The list is seemingly endless. Oh, and it can also do useful things. It's my programming companion too.
And we're just getting started.
I'm not in this field but have recently found myself going on the deepest dive possible into it as my small brain can absorb.
I now know about (on a surface level) neural networks, transformers, attention mechanisms, vectors, maticies, tokenization, loss functions and all sorts of other crazy stuff.
I come out of this realizing that there are some incredibly brilliant minds behind this. I knew AI was a complex subject but not on the level I've learned about now. To get what is essentially matrix multiplications to learn complex patterns and relationships in language is mind-blowing.
And it's creative. It can have a rap battle with an alter-ego, host a quiz party with other AIs of varying personalities, co-author a short story with me, respond to me only in emojis. The list is seemingly endless. Oh, and it can also do useful things. It's my programming companion too.
And we're just getting started.
Got a good Youtube list? Other than the HN threads and submissions I can look up this weekend.
this series is good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw_PJdmydZY
Multi-head attention just means that you're looking at all the words at once rather than only looking at one word at a time, and using that to generate the next word. So instead of using attention only on the last word you also have attention on the penultimate word and the one before that and the one before that, etc. I think it is fairly obvious why this gives better results than say an RNN – you are utilizing context better than in a recurrent system, which is also just closer to how a human brain works. When you read/write a sentence you're not really going one word at a time, you're thinking about all the words at once, even if the last word is technically the most important.
The other clear benefit of transformers over an arch like RNNs (and what has probably made more of a difference imo) is that its properly parallelizable, which means you can do huge training runs in a fraction of the time. RNNs might be able to get to a level of coherence that approaches GPT-3, but with current hardware that would be very time-prohibitive.
The other clear benefit of transformers over an arch like RNNs (and what has probably made more of a difference imo) is that its properly parallelizable, which means you can do huge training runs in a fraction of the time. RNNs might be able to get to a level of coherence that approaches GPT-3, but with current hardware that would be very time-prohibitive.
That's not what multi-head attention means. Multi-head attention is the use of learned projection operators to perform attention operations within multiple lower-dimensional subspaces of the network's embedding space, rather than a single attention operation in the full embedding space. E.g. projecting 10 512-D vectors into 80 64-D vectors, attending separately to the 8 sets of 10 embedding projections, then concatenating the results together to reform 10 512-D vector outputs.
In fact the projection operations are the only learned part of a Transformer's self-attention function -- the rest of self-attention is just a weighted sum of the input vectors, where the weights come from the (scaled) vector correlation matrix.
In fact the projection operations are the only learned part of a Transformer's self-attention function -- the rest of self-attention is just a weighted sum of the input vectors, where the weights come from the (scaled) vector correlation matrix.
How is that different from what I said?
So in training, chatgpt turned words into embedding , and given context window N , looked at N embeddings an created a probabilities list for the following next embedding ?
And if I tell it something that was excatly in it's trained context windows, I get the most likely next word and the one after itm
But what happens if I ask it something slighty different than it's training context ? Or something largely different?
And if I tell it something that was excatly in it's trained context windows, I get the most likely next word and the one after itm
But what happens if I ask it something slighty different than it's training context ? Or something largely different?
By "embedding" in this context what you're actually referring to is called a "token" which are sub-word strings of usually 1-4 characters.
It's not possible for you to ask it things even slightly different from it training data, unless you ask exclusively in emojis that didn't exist yet when it was trained (in which case it sees nothing, just like when someone sends you an emoji your phone doesn't support).
Any novel sentence and even novel words like "Blobdarfnk" ARE in its training data. "Blobdarfnk" is encoded as the five tokens Bl, ob, dar, fn, and k.
It's not possible for you to ask it things even slightly different from it training data, unless you ask exclusively in emojis that didn't exist yet when it was trained (in which case it sees nothing, just like when someone sends you an emoji your phone doesn't support).
Any novel sentence and even novel words like "Blobdarfnk" ARE in its training data. "Blobdarfnk" is encoded as the five tokens Bl, ob, dar, fn, and k.
No worries, readers can just ask ChatGPT 'what's the meaning of attention in the context of LLM design' and go from there [edit also temperature].
> that there are no demons underneath
Given that Lacan already proposed the unconscious as structured language-like more than half a century ago and described attention in his turn on Freud's impulse in favor of his concept of derive, we may say, this is pretty much where our own demons live.
(I actually do think that revisiting Lacan in this context may be productive.)
Given that Lacan already proposed the unconscious as structured language-like more than half a century ago and described attention in his turn on Freud's impulse in favor of his concept of derive, we may say, this is pretty much where our own demons live.
(I actually do think that revisiting Lacan in this context may be productive.)
We need to form some sort of guild of engineers who think Deleuze, Latour, Lacan et caterva should be read within our disciplines.
They would be called "unemployable" because they are literal charlatans.
Please end our strange fascination with fashionable nonsense. Freud was wrong. There is no Oedipus complex. Everything lacan proposed was wrong. Deleuze and Guattari's mental health clinic failed spectacularly, and Deleuze ended up killing himself at the end (supposedly due to back pain?)
They literally describe their thought as being "Schizoanalysis". How many more red flags do you need?
Also, the more "modern" takes on this from techno folks, such as from Nick Land (Fanged Noumena), are openly fascist - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Enlightenment
If you want cultural critique from smart people without it turning into fashionable nonsense, I recommend Mark Fischer, but be warned, he too killed himself.
Please end our strange fascination with fashionable nonsense. Freud was wrong. There is no Oedipus complex. Everything lacan proposed was wrong. Deleuze and Guattari's mental health clinic failed spectacularly, and Deleuze ended up killing himself at the end (supposedly due to back pain?)
They literally describe their thought as being "Schizoanalysis". How many more red flags do you need?
Also, the more "modern" takes on this from techno folks, such as from Nick Land (Fanged Noumena), are openly fascist - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Enlightenment
If you want cultural critique from smart people without it turning into fashionable nonsense, I recommend Mark Fischer, but be warned, he too killed himself.
"There is no Oedipus complex" is, using your own words, "fashionable nonsense". Of course there is a crucial conflict as we learn rules, and this establishes a universal foundation of ethics. And of course this takes place in the realm of our very object relations. Not bothering about what a concept actually means and/or describes is not a free card for criticism. (Neither does generalization over an entire section of science and human thinking help particularly.) – Sorry for the harsh words, but this actually bothers me.
Regarding charlatans, mind that there are already few who have actually studied this. (I'm one of them.)
Regarding Lacan, he provides us with an established theory of "talking machines", and, in a philosophical context, how they relate to our very freedom (or, what freedom may even be). This isn't totally useless in our current situation, and NB, it's actually quite the opposite of fascism.
Regarding charlatans, mind that there are already few who have actually studied this. (I'm one of them.)
Regarding Lacan, he provides us with an established theory of "talking machines", and, in a philosophical context, how they relate to our very freedom (or, what freedom may even be). This isn't totally useless in our current situation, and NB, it's actually quite the opposite of fascism.
Guattari was the psychiatrist-analyst type, Deleuze was uninvolved with that. Also: what drove him to suicide was lung problems, to the point he was (old and) locked home connected to a machine to breathe. Some say it was an accident -- that he opened the windows to let some air.
That's just to correct the record. I have no desire to re-litigate Sokal/Bogdanoff and so on. Good day sir cheerio.
That's just to correct the record. I have no desire to re-litigate Sokal/Bogdanoff and so on. Good day sir cheerio.
I second this. The STEM (= engineering) / humanities divide in software may miss some.
(There had been times, when linguistics were still a major entry path into computing, where things were a bit different. Notably, this were also the times, which gave rise to most of the general paradigms. A certain amount of generality was even regarded a prerequisite to programming. Particularly, HN is such a great place, because it holds up this notion of generality.)
(There had been times, when linguistics were still a major entry path into computing, where things were a bit different. Notably, this were also the times, which gave rise to most of the general paradigms. A certain amount of generality was even regarded a prerequisite to programming. Particularly, HN is such a great place, because it holds up this notion of generality.)
Please no! Read systems neuroscience. Like Hassabis does. Or if of a philosophical persuasion, then Dennett or Rorty.
Much of cognitive science reinvents wheels that had been established in the 1920s and 1930s already, namely in sociology of knowledge and related fields. fRMI actually often confirms what had been already observed in a psychoanalytic context. (I don't think it's a good general advice to totally ignore what is already known.)
But Lacan? And no, there is a vast new world of cognitive neuroscience that was undreamed even 10 years ago.
> But Lacan?
Well, if you're in need of an established theory of (semantically driven) talking machines and what derives from this, and what this may mean for us in terms of freedom, look no further.
Well, if you're in need of an established theory of (semantically driven) talking machines and what derives from this, and what this may mean for us in terms of freedom, look no further.
Can you recommend a specific work of his? What Lacan I have leaves me bemused by his brilliance but not informed. Dennett provides both without the fireworks.
Generally, don't start with the "ecrits" (writings), they are hermetic and you really have to have some head start on this. From the seminars, Livre XI, Les quatres concepts fondamentaux de le psychoanalyse (1964) may be a start, as it – in parts – aligns itself with the cybernetic research of the day. However, do not expect too much from a single reading or a single of the seminars.
(Mind that this is trying to talk about what's beyond/below language, necessarily using language just the same, which is – at least according to (the early) Wittgenstein – somewhat an impossibility. You can only show these things, so it takes several approaches from several directions. But there is actually something like a concise corpus of theory eventually emerging from this. Moreover, this – being transcripts of seminars – addresses an audience that is already familiar with Freud, in order to reframe this. – This is also one of the major issues with Lacan and his reception: it takes some serious investment to get into this, and this also used to have some worth on the academic markets. On the other hand, this (academic) value became indeed inflated and eventually devalued, to the point of those, who never bothered to invest, happily triumphing. Think the Great North-American Video Game Crash. But this really shouldn't be the end to what may be one of the major approaches towards what language actually means to us. The expectation that everything can be addressed directly and without prerequisites, regardless of the complexity, may actually not be met. On the other hand, there will be also never be a single "master", who is always right and without failure, bearing always the most distilled emanation of truth in their very word. – I'm also not arguing that everybody is now to become a scholar of Lacan. Rather, we may have an informed expert discussion, what may gained from this from a current perspective. E.g., if Lacan actually had something to say about an impulse-like directional vector emerging from attention (as a form of selectional focus on a semantic field), is there something to be learned from this, or, to be aware of?)
(Mind that this is trying to talk about what's beyond/below language, necessarily using language just the same, which is – at least according to (the early) Wittgenstein – somewhat an impossibility. You can only show these things, so it takes several approaches from several directions. But there is actually something like a concise corpus of theory eventually emerging from this. Moreover, this – being transcripts of seminars – addresses an audience that is already familiar with Freud, in order to reframe this. – This is also one of the major issues with Lacan and his reception: it takes some serious investment to get into this, and this also used to have some worth on the academic markets. On the other hand, this (academic) value became indeed inflated and eventually devalued, to the point of those, who never bothered to invest, happily triumphing. Think the Great North-American Video Game Crash. But this really shouldn't be the end to what may be one of the major approaches towards what language actually means to us. The expectation that everything can be addressed directly and without prerequisites, regardless of the complexity, may actually not be met. On the other hand, there will be also never be a single "master", who is always right and without failure, bearing always the most distilled emanation of truth in their very word. – I'm also not arguing that everybody is now to become a scholar of Lacan. Rather, we may have an informed expert discussion, what may gained from this from a current perspective. E.g., if Lacan actually had something to say about an impulse-like directional vector emerging from attention (as a form of selectional focus on a semantic field), is there something to be learned from this, or, to be aware of?)
Thanks much for great pointers and precautions on reading Lacan. Even Rorty finds Lacan, Foucault and friends difficult and he read in French rather than in translations.
I was browsing in the medical school bookstore in Berlin (Humboldt/Charité) looking through the psychiatry section and (not joking) a third of the books were by Lacan. Will try with residual trepidation.
The reading list is already too deep and broad for this mortal. But G. Buzsaki, P. Churchkand, A. Damasio, D. Dennett, M. Donald, J. Hawkins, D. Hofstadter, C. Koch, R. Llinas, M. Minsky, Tommasi, J. Panksepp, Piaget, E. Pöppel … do find good traction for those of us who are neuroscientists interested in levels of compute that lead to language generation by human wetware.
I was browsing in the medical school bookstore in Berlin (Humboldt/Charité) looking through the psychiatry section and (not joking) a third of the books were by Lacan. Will try with residual trepidation.
The reading list is already too deep and broad for this mortal. But G. Buzsaki, P. Churchkand, A. Damasio, D. Dennett, M. Donald, J. Hawkins, D. Hofstadter, C. Koch, R. Llinas, M. Minsky, Tommasi, J. Panksepp, Piaget, E. Pöppel … do find good traction for those of us who are neuroscientists interested in levels of compute that lead to language generation by human wetware.
In this moment it would be better if people would read some Wittgenstein and Roy Harris, IMHO.
Why not both? Things like philosophy or metapsychology tend to be prismatic, each framework comes with advantages and disadvantages and boundaries of its own.
(A turn towards the dogmatic is something I'm pretty much expecting from the current launch of AI anyway, simply, because the productions systematically favor the semantic center. So it may be worth putting some generality against this, rather than being overly selective.)
(A turn towards the dogmatic is something I'm pretty much expecting from the current launch of AI anyway, simply, because the productions systematically favor the semantic center. So it may be worth putting some generality against this, rather than being overly selective.)
Lol well to answer your question literally, I think integrationist linguistics and Wittgenstein's thoughts about language use as a social action are way more relevant to understanding what's happening with LLMs (and people's naive reactions to them) than what was suggested previously as background reading.
Mind that we're are not, by any means, at any state of social interaction with LLMs. (Any such thing would be a mere hallucination on the user's side.) However, these are semantic fields, with whatever consequence comes with this. (So there may have been something said on this already, in what was known as the linguistic turn.)
I would vote for revisiting Hofstadter and perhaps even Piaget. And if we want to bother trying to define and operationalize self-consciousness—-then Guillery’s The Brain as a Tool—is a good foray into how the CNS pulls off this simple trick.
Whether there are demons underneath depends on whether you believe a lossy statistical snapshot across the Jungian subconscious of all human writing contains demons.
It's a bit more plausible when we phrase it that way...
It's a bit more plausible when we phrase it that way...
Is there an article that would meet your standard (discusses transformers, uses the word 'attention') that you could give to someone who has no familiarity with computer science?
Jay alammar's Illustrated transformer, although this too is detailed. I think it's still worth taking a look, because really i don't think that people have yet "compressed" what transformers do intuitively. None of the concepts of the networks are particularly hard math - it's basic algebra. But the overall construction is complicated.
https://jalammar.github.io/illustrated-transformer/
https://jalammar.github.io/illustrated-transformer/
The whole thing is magic, really. We assemble relatively mundane things that we understand together in certain specific ways, and somehow get something that can talk etc. A conjurer of old - who would similarly assemble bells and candles - would probably say that we summoned a demon.
Embeddings and their relationship to each other are definitely relevant to transformers. Why do you think that's not the case?
gptX embeddings aren't even words. Even so, the embedding relationship is useful but not the core of what transformers do to find relationships between words in sequences.
remember the word2vec paper? the surprising bit the authors were trying to show was that putting words in some embedding space with an appropriate loss naturally lends enough structure to those words to be able to draw robust, human-interpretable analogies.
I agree with the sentiment that each individual dimension isn't meaningful, and I also feel like it's misleading for the article to frame it that way. But there's a grain of truth: the last step to predicting the output token is to take the dot product between some embedding and all the possible tokens' embeddings (we can interpret the last layer as just a table of token embeddings). Taking dot products in this space are equivalent to comparing the "distance" between the model's proposal and each possible output token. In that space, words like "apple" and "banana" are closer together than they are to "rotisserie chicken," so there is some coarse structure there.
Doing this, we gave the space meaning by the fact that cosine similarity is meaningful proxy for semantic similarity. Individual dimensions aren't meaningful, but distance in this space is.
A stronger article would attempt to replicate the word2vec analogy experiments (imo one of the more fascinating parts of that paper) with GPT's embeddings. I'd love to see if that property holds.
I agree with the sentiment that each individual dimension isn't meaningful, and I also feel like it's misleading for the article to frame it that way. But there's a grain of truth: the last step to predicting the output token is to take the dot product between some embedding and all the possible tokens' embeddings (we can interpret the last layer as just a table of token embeddings). Taking dot products in this space are equivalent to comparing the "distance" between the model's proposal and each possible output token. In that space, words like "apple" and "banana" are closer together than they are to "rotisserie chicken," so there is some coarse structure there.
Doing this, we gave the space meaning by the fact that cosine similarity is meaningful proxy for semantic similarity. Individual dimensions aren't meaningful, but distance in this space is.
A stronger article would attempt to replicate the word2vec analogy experiments (imo one of the more fascinating parts of that paper) with GPT's embeddings. I'd love to see if that property holds.
I wouldn't say the interpretability of word2vec embeddings is suprising - it's just a reflection of words being defined by context/usage, and these embeddings being created based on that assumption.
You can't just wave your hand and tell someone that words are broken up into sub-word tokens that are then transformed into a numerical representation to feed to a transformer and expect people to understand what is happening. How is anyone supposed to understand what a transformer does without understanding what the actual inputs are (e.g. word embeddings)? Plus, those embeddings directly related to the self attention scores calculated in the transformer. Understanding what an embedding is is extremely relevant.
> It is able to link ideas logically, defend them, adapt to the context, roleplay, and (especially the latest GPT-4) avoid contradicting itself.
Isn't this just responding to the context provided?
Like if I say "Write a Limerick about cats eating rats" isn't it just generating words that will come after that context, and correctly guessing that they'll rhyme in a certain way?
It's really cool that it can generate coherent responses, but it feels icky when people start interrogating it about things it got wrong. Aren't you just providing more context tokens for it?
Certainly that model seems to fit both the things it gets right, and the things it gets wrong. It's effectively "hallucinating" everything but sometimes that hallucination corresponds with what we consider appropriate and sometimes it doesn't.
Isn't this just responding to the context provided?
Like if I say "Write a Limerick about cats eating rats" isn't it just generating words that will come after that context, and correctly guessing that they'll rhyme in a certain way?
It's really cool that it can generate coherent responses, but it feels icky when people start interrogating it about things it got wrong. Aren't you just providing more context tokens for it?
Certainly that model seems to fit both the things it gets right, and the things it gets wrong. It's effectively "hallucinating" everything but sometimes that hallucination corresponds with what we consider appropriate and sometimes it doesn't.
It's all about emergent complexity. While you can reduce it to "just"
statistical auto-completion of the next word, we are seeing evidence of abstraction and reasoning produced as a higher-order effect of these simple completions.
It's a bit like the Sagan quote: "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe".
Sometimes for GPT to "just" complete the next word in a way that humans find plausible, it must, along the way, develop a model of the world, theory of mind, abstract reasoning, etc. Because the models are opaque, we can't yet point to a certain batch of CPU cycles and say "there! it just engaged in abstract reasoning". But we can see from the output that to some extent it's happening, somehow.
We also see effects like this when looking at collective intelligence of bees and ants. While each individual insect is only performing simple actions with extremely limited cognitive processing, it can add up to highly complex and intelligent/adaptive mechanics at the level of the swarm. There are many phenomena like this in nature.
It's a bit like the Sagan quote: "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe".
Sometimes for GPT to "just" complete the next word in a way that humans find plausible, it must, along the way, develop a model of the world, theory of mind, abstract reasoning, etc. Because the models are opaque, we can't yet point to a certain batch of CPU cycles and say "there! it just engaged in abstract reasoning". But we can see from the output that to some extent it's happening, somehow.
We also see effects like this when looking at collective intelligence of bees and ants. While each individual insect is only performing simple actions with extremely limited cognitive processing, it can add up to highly complex and intelligent/adaptive mechanics at the level of the swarm. There are many phenomena like this in nature.
> Sometimes for GPT to "just" complete the next word in a way that humans find plausible, it must, along the way, develop a model of the world, theory of mind, abstract reasoning. etc.
I did an experiment recently where I asked ChatGPT to "tell me an idea [you] have never heard before". ChatGPT replied with what sounded like an idea for a startup, which was delivering farm-fresh vegetables to customers' doors. This is of course not an idea it has never heard before, it's on the internet.
If you asked a human this, they would give you an idea they had never heard before, whereas ChatGPT simply "finds" training data where someone asked a similar question, and produces the likely response, which is an idea that it has actually "heard," or seen in its training data, before. (Obviously a gross simplification of the algorithm but the point stands.)
This is a difference between ChatGPT's algorithm and human reasoning. The things that you mention, the model of the world, theory of mind, etc. are statistical illusions which have observable differences from the real thing.
Am I wrong? I'm open to persuasion.
I did an experiment recently where I asked ChatGPT to "tell me an idea [you] have never heard before". ChatGPT replied with what sounded like an idea for a startup, which was delivering farm-fresh vegetables to customers' doors. This is of course not an idea it has never heard before, it's on the internet.
If you asked a human this, they would give you an idea they had never heard before, whereas ChatGPT simply "finds" training data where someone asked a similar question, and produces the likely response, which is an idea that it has actually "heard," or seen in its training data, before. (Obviously a gross simplification of the algorithm but the point stands.)
This is a difference between ChatGPT's algorithm and human reasoning. The things that you mention, the model of the world, theory of mind, etc. are statistical illusions which have observable differences from the real thing.
Am I wrong? I'm open to persuasion.
I think it's certainly fair to say that GPT's "reasoning" is different from human reasoning. But I think the core debate we're having is whether the difference really matters in some situations.
Certainly, Midjourney's "creativity" is different from human creativity. But it is producing results that we marvel at. It's creative not because it's doing the exact same philosophical thing humans do, but because it can produce the same effect.
And I think many situations are like that. We can always say that human creativity/reasoning/x will always be different from artificial reasoning. But even today, GPT's statistical model replicates many aspects of human reasoning virtually. Is that really an illusion (implying its fake and potentially useless), or is it just a different way of achieving a similar result?
Plus, different models will excel at different thing. GPT's model will excel at synthesizing answers from far more information than a single human will ever be able to know. Does it really matter if it's not identical to human reasoning on a philosophical or biological level, if it can do things humans can't do?
At the end of the day, some of these discussions feel like bike shedding about what words like "reasoning" mean philosophically. But what will ultimately matter is how well these models perform at real world tasks, and what impact that will have on humanity. It doesn't really matter if it's virtualized reasoning or "real" human reasoning at that point.
Certainly, Midjourney's "creativity" is different from human creativity. But it is producing results that we marvel at. It's creative not because it's doing the exact same philosophical thing humans do, but because it can produce the same effect.
And I think many situations are like that. We can always say that human creativity/reasoning/x will always be different from artificial reasoning. But even today, GPT's statistical model replicates many aspects of human reasoning virtually. Is that really an illusion (implying its fake and potentially useless), or is it just a different way of achieving a similar result?
Plus, different models will excel at different thing. GPT's model will excel at synthesizing answers from far more information than a single human will ever be able to know. Does it really matter if it's not identical to human reasoning on a philosophical or biological level, if it can do things humans can't do?
At the end of the day, some of these discussions feel like bike shedding about what words like "reasoning" mean philosophically. But what will ultimately matter is how well these models perform at real world tasks, and what impact that will have on humanity. It doesn't really matter if it's virtualized reasoning or "real" human reasoning at that point.
Most arguments that AI can't really reason/think/invent essentially reduce to defining these terms as things only humans can do. Even if you had an LLM-based AGI that passes the Turing test 100% of the time, cures cancer, unites quantum physics with relativity, and so on, many of the people who say that ChatGPT can't reason will keep saying the same thing about the AGI.
I don't think there's anything wrong with people trying to see what, if anything, differentiates ChatGPT from humans. Curing cancer etc. is useful, as is ChatGPT, regardless of how it achieves these results. But how it achieves them is important to many people, including myself. If it's no different from humans, then we need to treat it like a human---well no, strike that, we need to treat it _well_ and protect it and give it rights and so on. If it's a fancy calculator, then we don't.
I don't think there's anything wrong with it either. It's an important debate. I just think the arguments usually become very circular and repetitive. If there's nothing an AI could ever do to convince you that it's thinking or reasoning, then really you should be explicit and say "I don't believe an AI can produce human thought or human reasoning" or "an AI is not a human" and nobody will disagree with you on those points.
> and nobody will disagree with you on those points
But that's the point, they do. Even on HN there are many comments saying that humans are just fancy autocomplete, i.e. there's no fundamental difference between humans and LLMs.
But that's the point, they do. Even on HN there are many comments saying that humans are just fancy autocomplete, i.e. there's no fundamental difference between humans and LLMs.
tines says>"Even on HN there are many comments saying that humans are just fancy autocomplete, i.e. there's no fundamental difference between humans and LLMs."<
LLMs'may prove a useful analogy as to how parts of human intelligence operate, an analogy that, at the very least, should be thoroughly researched.
LLMs'may prove a useful analogy as to how parts of human intelligence operate, an analogy that, at the very least, should be thoroughly researched.
"there's no fundamental difference between humans and LLMs."
I think that's a straw man. No one disagrees that humans and LLMs produce cognition differently. One uses a wet, squishy brain. The other uses silicon chips. There's no disagreement here.
I think that's a straw man. No one disagrees that humans and LLMs produce cognition differently. One uses a wet, squishy brain. The other uses silicon chips. There's no disagreement here.
> One uses a wet, squishy brain. The other uses silicon chips.
Well then, that settles the debate!
Well then, that settles the debate!
My point is that's not a debate anyone is having. No one claims that ChatGPT is human! The claim is merely that ChatGPT is engaging in (non-human) forms of reasoning, abstraction, creativity, and so on, with varying levels of ability.
There's a separate debate on whether the brain produces human thoughts in a similar way to ChatGPT's non-human thought. The question here is whether brains are essentially biological LLMs, and whether GPT's current limitations relative to humans could be overcome simply by scaling up the number of GPT's parameters to match or exceed the number of neurons in the human brain. But whether or not that turns out to be the case, it would not mean that AIs are the same as humans, or use exactly the same processes to think and reason, and no one is claiming that.
There's a separate debate on whether the brain produces human thoughts in a similar way to ChatGPT's non-human thought. The question here is whether brains are essentially biological LLMs, and whether GPT's current limitations relative to humans could be overcome simply by scaling up the number of GPT's parameters to match or exceed the number of neurons in the human brain. But whether or not that turns out to be the case, it would not mean that AIs are the same as humans, or use exactly the same processes to think and reason, and no one is claiming that.
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The word "thought" means something. When you use it to describe ChatGPT, you have in fact argued "there's no fundamental difference between humans and LLMs."
> It's creative not because it's doing the exact same philosophical thing humans do, but because it can produce the same effect.
Absolutely, and I hope none of my comments are taken in a way that disparages how amazing ChatGPT and Stable Diffusion et al. are. I'm just debating how humanlike they are.
> Is that really an illusion (implying its fake and potentially useless)
I don't think that because it's an illusion means that its useless. Magnets look like telekinesis, but that effect being an illusion doesn't mean that magnets are useless; far from it, and once we admit that they are what they are, they become even more useful.
> Plus, different models will excel at different thing. GPT's model will excel at synthesizing answers from far more information than a single human will ever be able to know. Does it really matter if it's not identical to human reasoning on a philosophical or biological level, if it can do things humans can't do?
It only matters if people are trying to say that ChatGPT is essentially human, that idea is all I was replying to. I completely agree with you here.
Absolutely, and I hope none of my comments are taken in a way that disparages how amazing ChatGPT and Stable Diffusion et al. are. I'm just debating how humanlike they are.
> Is that really an illusion (implying its fake and potentially useless)
I don't think that because it's an illusion means that its useless. Magnets look like telekinesis, but that effect being an illusion doesn't mean that magnets are useless; far from it, and once we admit that they are what they are, they become even more useful.
> Plus, different models will excel at different thing. GPT's model will excel at synthesizing answers from far more information than a single human will ever be able to know. Does it really matter if it's not identical to human reasoning on a philosophical or biological level, if it can do things humans can't do?
It only matters if people are trying to say that ChatGPT is essentially human, that idea is all I was replying to. I completely agree with you here.
If it can reason, should it be held accountable for the consequences of its mistakes ?
A simple tool can’t. A « mind » that is coming in our world should, right ?
Just like all the marvel and DC where super-human are still accountable for their mistakes, their super powers are no excuse.
A simple tool can’t. A « mind » that is coming in our world should, right ?
Just like all the marvel and DC where super-human are still accountable for their mistakes, their super powers are no excuse.
Almost all people almost never have truly original ideas. When asked to "tell me an idea [you] have never heard before", they will remix stuff they have heard to get something that "feels" like it's new. In some cases they'll actually be wrong and reproduce something they heard and forgot about hearing, but remember the concept. Most of the time, the remix will be fairly superficial.
And remixing stuff it has heard before is exactly what ChatGPT is doing. What it sucks at is the "feels like it's new" part, but fundamentally it would be quite easily capable of creating output that combines concepts with maximally negative correlation, the only thing that's truly missing is the ability to interpret the prompt as an instruction to do that.
And remixing stuff it has heard before is exactly what ChatGPT is doing. What it sucks at is the "feels like it's new" part, but fundamentally it would be quite easily capable of creating output that combines concepts with maximally negative correlation, the only thing that's truly missing is the ability to interpret the prompt as an instruction to do that.
Certainly. I mean we've seen all 26 letters before-- ChatGPT is just remixing them.
How does one actually measure novelty, without having to know everything first?
How does one actually measure novelty, without having to know everything first?
The entire strength of large language models like GPT is that they do know a frighteningly good approximation of everything, in terms of having been trained on text written about it.
> And remixing stuff it has heard before is exactly what ChatGPT is doing.
Check out my "the confetti has left the cannon" example above.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35346683
Maybe still "remixing", but it sure feels like new to me.
Check out my "the confetti has left the cannon" example above.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35346683
Maybe still "remixing", but it sure feels like new to me.
For what it's worth, I asked ChatGPT to come up with an original idea but I generated 25 random English words and told it to use them as inspiration. This can help the output be more creative and original. Here's what it came up with:
> The BerryPulse is an innovative, eco-friendly device that captures the energy released during the natural decomposition of berries to produce heat and electricity. The device comprises a closed container, where a cluster of berries is placed in a specially designed compartment, acting as an organic fuel source. The decomposition process is intensified using a biodegradable catalyst, which accelerates the natural breakdown of the berries while ensuring minimal environmental impact.
> The BerryPulse is an innovative, eco-friendly device that captures the energy released during the natural decomposition of berries to produce heat and electricity. The device comprises a closed container, where a cluster of berries is placed in a specially designed compartment, acting as an organic fuel source. The decomposition process is intensified using a biodegradable catalyst, which accelerates the natural breakdown of the berries while ensuring minimal environmental impact.
> the model of the world, theory of mind, etc. are statistical illusions which have observable differences from the real thing.
Is that a falsifiable claim?
What would an empirical test look like that would determine whether the claim ("GPT-4 does not have a model of the world") is correct or not?
Is that a falsifiable claim?
What would an empirical test look like that would determine whether the claim ("GPT-4 does not have a model of the world") is correct or not?
I guess ChatGPT having a model of the world is not something I'd argue against, my mistake. I do think the data it contains represents a quite nuanced model of the world. But I don't think this is a very strong claim. A geographical map has a model of the world too.
Thanks. To get to what I think is the core of your argument (?)
> ChatGPT simply "finds" training data where someone asked a similar question, and produces the likely response, which is an idea that it has actually "heard," or seen in its training data, before.
I can definitely see a scenario where we manage to build an ultra-intelligent machine that can figure out any logical puzzle we put to it, but where it still isn't "creative" in any way.
But GPT-4 seems to be not just intelligent, but also creative.
Have you seen the "confetti has left the cannon" example?
> ChatGPT simply "finds" training data where someone asked a similar question, and produces the likely response, which is an idea that it has actually "heard," or seen in its training data, before.
I can definitely see a scenario where we manage to build an ultra-intelligent machine that can figure out any logical puzzle we put to it, but where it still isn't "creative" in any way.
But GPT-4 seems to be not just intelligent, but also creative.
Have you seen the "confetti has left the cannon" example?
For the curious, here was the conversation I had:
ME: What's another saying similar to: "The cat is out of the bag" or "The genie is out of the bottle"?
chatgpt: Another similar saying is "the toothpaste is out of the tube." Like the other two expressions, this phrase conveys the idea that something has been revealed or unleashed, and it cannot be undone or put back into its original state.
ME: Can you invent a new phrase that has the same meaning, which is completely new?
chatgpt: Certainly! Here's a new phrase with a similar meaning: "The confetti has left the cannon." This phrase suggests that once something is out in the open or has happened, it's impossible to reverse or contain it, much like confetti that has been shot out of a cannon during a celebration.
That does seem really impressive. But don't you think that it's pretty likely that this, or something phrased slightly differently, appeared in the training data?
> But don't you think that it's pretty likely that this, or something phrased slightly differently, appeared in the training data?
I don't think so, but I could be wrong. It's definitely not "likely", see the math below.
I base that on the fact that people seemed to spend quite a bit of time trying to find the phrase "the confetti has left the cannon" that GPT-4 phrased. It seems Google search has no records of it before then?
I've seen many other examples where GPT-4 can translate sentences between using different types of idioms, and I just can't picture all these weird examples already being present on the Internet?
Do you think GPT-4 is a stochastic parrot that just has a large database of responses?
If so, how would we test that claim? What logical and reasoning problems can we give it where it fails to answer, but a human doesn't?
My understanding is that even with an extremely limited vocabulary of 32 words, you quickly run out of atoms in the universe (10^80) if you string more than 50 words together. If your vocabulary instead is 10k words, you reach 10^80 combinations after 20 words.
By training the LLMs on "fill in the missing word", they were forced to evolve ever more sophisticated algorithms.
If you look at the performance over the last 5 years of increasingly larger LLMs, there was a hockey-stick jump in performance 1-2 years ago. My hunch is that is when they started evolving structures to generate better responses by using logic and reasoning instead of lookup tables.
I don't think so, but I could be wrong. It's definitely not "likely", see the math below.
I base that on the fact that people seemed to spend quite a bit of time trying to find the phrase "the confetti has left the cannon" that GPT-4 phrased. It seems Google search has no records of it before then?
I've seen many other examples where GPT-4 can translate sentences between using different types of idioms, and I just can't picture all these weird examples already being present on the Internet?
Do you think GPT-4 is a stochastic parrot that just has a large database of responses?
If so, how would we test that claim? What logical and reasoning problems can we give it where it fails to answer, but a human doesn't?
My understanding is that even with an extremely limited vocabulary of 32 words, you quickly run out of atoms in the universe (10^80) if you string more than 50 words together. If your vocabulary instead is 10k words, you reach 10^80 combinations after 20 words.
By training the LLMs on "fill in the missing word", they were forced to evolve ever more sophisticated algorithms.
If you look at the performance over the last 5 years of increasingly larger LLMs, there was a hockey-stick jump in performance 1-2 years ago. My hunch is that is when they started evolving structures to generate better responses by using logic and reasoning instead of lookup tables.
> I base that on the fact that people seemed to spend quite a bit of time trying to find the phrase "the confetti has left the cannon" that GPT-4 phrased. It seems Google search has no records of it before then?
Could it be that the expression in some form has been used in languages other than English?
Could it be that the expression in some form has been used in languages other than English?
Good point! I hadn't thought of that.
If that is the case, it would downgrade the achievement from "super impressive" to just "impressive".
I spent some time trying to find it in other languages, but couldn't. Doesn't prove much of course, hopefully native speakers can weigh in on this.
I did find this though:
'TIL that a young stripper named Shelly Bauman lost her leg in a freak confetti cannon accident. She sued and used the money from the settlement to open Seattle's first gay bar, which she named "Shelly's Leg."'
If that is the case, it would downgrade the achievement from "super impressive" to just "impressive".
I spent some time trying to find it in other languages, but couldn't. Doesn't prove much of course, hopefully native speakers can weigh in on this.
I did find this though:
'TIL that a young stripper named Shelly Bauman lost her leg in a freak confetti cannon accident. She sued and used the money from the settlement to open Seattle's first gay bar, which she named "Shelly's Leg."'
One interesting way I heard to around this is by mixing human languages in the prompt which probably never appear together in any training data, and seeing that chat gpt can do still output sensible replies. That seems to imply that something unique is happening beyond token lookup, if it’s taking different languages and mapping that to the underlying information, that looks a lot more like what people call “understanding”.
Turns out good usage of "language" requires a model of the world in which that language exists. "The purple, two eyed, green, five eyed, invisible frog said moo" is a grammatically fine sentence. But logically it makes no sense, does it have two eyes or five? Is it green or purple or invisible? Frogs don't typically say moo. To have actual coherent usage of language, you need a model of the world. Not just the world, but the current domain you're using language in. "The frog brainwashed the crowd with its psychic powers" is nonsense in a biology paper, but perfectly valid inside of the cartoon Futurama.
In ChatGPT the language-model and world-model are really just the same model, which makes a lot of sense.
In ChatGPT the language-model and world-model are really just the same model, which makes a lot of sense.
Very well said. We think of a word as "just" a word, a simple, primarily textual thing, but it's actually a vertex on an extremely large and complex many-dimensional graph that includes connections related to meaning, logic/reasoning, knowledge about reality, emotional sentiment, and so on. The literal textual representation of the word--the letters it consists of--are just one property among many, and probably one of the least important to producing sensible output. GPT is discovering the shape of this super-graph and learning to navigate its connections.
This is really lofty language without much evidence to back it up. It fluffs up techie people and makes them feel powerful, but it doesn't really describe large language models nor does it describe linguistic processes.
The evidence is ChatGPT's output. Unless you're saying that passing the bar exam, writing working code, etc. doesn't require abstract reasoning abilities or a model of the world?
It's a large language model. It is fed training data. It is not that impressive when it spits out stuff that looks like its training data. You are the one asserting things without evidence.
It can pass tests and exams with answers that were not included in its training corpus. For example, it passed the 2023 unified bar exam, though its training cut off in 2021. Yes, it can look at previous test questions and answers, just like human law students can. Are you therefore claiming that human law students don't engage in abstract reasoning when they take the bar exam, since they studied with tests from previous years?
It can also write code for novel use cases that have never been done before. I gave it a task like this a few days ago and it got it right on the first try. There are literally millions of empirical data points that contradict you.
It can also write code for novel use cases that have never been done before. I gave it a task like this a few days ago and it got it right on the first try. There are literally millions of empirical data points that contradict you.
It is a large language model. It manipulates text based on context and the imprint of its vast training. You are not able to articulate a theory of reasoning. You are just pointing to the output of an algorithm and saying "this must mean something!" There isn't even a working model of reasoning here, it's just a human being impressed that a tool for manipulating symbols is able to manipulate symbols after training it to manipulate symbols in the specific way that you want symbols manipulated. Where is your articulated theory of abstract reasoning?
ttpphd says >"Where is your articulated theory of abstract reasoning?"<
If he had a complete answer to your questions then he would keep his mouth shut and go directly to META and collect $2 BN USD or get a Nobel prize (or both). What you seem to want is a peer-reviewed academic paper but what we're doing here is brainstorming about what is going on in these LLMs.
He's definitely onto something here: LLM models, at the very least, appear to generate reasonable human-like statements about human concepts. ChatGPT et al are useful in the same way a human assistant is useful. Most remarkably, they appear to think like we do. We need to understand how these MOFOs work b/c in a few years they're going to be everywhere.
IIRC an old "Far Side" Gary Larson cartoon depicts two bears just outside their cave, arrows in their limbs and butts, fighting off a hungry bunch of cave men. One bear says to the other "Seems there's more and more of these every year!"
Well, unless we're careful, next time we're going to be the bears!
If he had a complete answer to your questions then he would keep his mouth shut and go directly to META and collect $2 BN USD or get a Nobel prize (or both). What you seem to want is a peer-reviewed academic paper but what we're doing here is brainstorming about what is going on in these LLMs.
He's definitely onto something here: LLM models, at the very least, appear to generate reasonable human-like statements about human concepts. ChatGPT et al are useful in the same way a human assistant is useful. Most remarkably, they appear to think like we do. We need to understand how these MOFOs work b/c in a few years they're going to be everywhere.
IIRC an old "Far Side" Gary Larson cartoon depicts two bears just outside their cave, arrows in their limbs and butts, fighting off a hungry bunch of cave men. One bear says to the other "Seems there's more and more of these every year!"
Well, unless we're careful, next time we're going to be the bears!
I don't like buying into hype mindlessly. I prefer to reason through things and apply skepticism. If people are gonna claim that a chatbot has gained sentience, I'm gonna have some tough questions.
Note I didn't say "sentience" anywhere. There's a huge difference between non-human reasoning/thinking and sentience/consciousness. I don't believe the first implies the latter... it's necessary but not at all sufficient.
It's not clear to me what point you're trying to make. Why do we need an "articulated theory of abstract reasoning" to say that passing the bar exam or writing code for novel, nontrivial tasks requires reasoning? Seems rather obvious.
You are making a claim that there is some attribute of importance. For that claim to be persuasive, it should be supported with an explanation of what that attribute is and is not, and evidence for or against the meeting of those criteria. So far all you have done is say "Look at the text it puts out, isn't that something?"
It's just empty excitement, not a well-reasoned argument.
It's just empty excitement, not a well-reasoned argument.
You keep avoiding this question: does passing the bar exam and writing code for novel, nontrivial tasks require reasoning or doesn't it?
You aren't answering because saying no will sound ridiculous. We all know it requires reasoning.
As for an "attribute of importance", I guess that's subjective, but I've used ChatGPT to write code in a few minutes that would have taken me hours of research and implementation. I've shipped that code to thousands of people. That's enough for it to be important to me, even ignoring other applications, but you certainly have the right to remain unimpressed if you so choose.
You aren't answering because saying no will sound ridiculous. We all know it requires reasoning.
As for an "attribute of importance", I guess that's subjective, but I've used ChatGPT to write code in a few minutes that would have taken me hours of research and implementation. I've shipped that code to thousands of people. That's enough for it to be important to me, even ignoring other applications, but you certainly have the right to remain unimpressed if you so choose.
For a human, it takes human reasoning. But a xerox machine can also output the correct answers given the right inputs, which is exactly what you can say about an LLM.
The "attribute of importance" I'm referring to is "rationality". You keep talking about it like it means something but you can't define it beyond "I'm pretty sure this text was made using it".
Does a tape recording of a bird song "know" how to sing like a bird?
The "attribute of importance" I'm referring to is "rationality". You keep talking about it like it means something but you can't define it beyond "I'm pretty sure this text was made using it".
Does a tape recording of a bird song "know" how to sing like a bird?
Those aren't good analogies. An LLM isn't like a xerox machine or a tape recorder. Again, the answers to the bar exam it passed weren't in its training data. Nor was the code it wrote for me.
I'm using the common, colloquial definition of reasoning. I don't think we need an academic treatise to say that passing the bar exam (without copying the answers) or writing code for a novel task requires reasoning.
You're right that we don't fully understand how the LLM is doing this, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening.
I'm using the common, colloquial definition of reasoning. I don't think we need an academic treatise to say that passing the bar exam (without copying the answers) or writing code for a novel task requires reasoning.
You're right that we don't fully understand how the LLM is doing this, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening.
> Like if I say "Write a Limerick about cats eating rats" isn't it just generating words that will come after that context, and correctly guessing that they'll rhyme in a certain way?
Aren't you just doing that?
Aren't you just doing that?
"Responding to the context provided" is very vague. I could argue that I'm doing exactly that right now as I'm writing this comment. It does not imply not being able to e.g. link ideas logically.
With respect to interrogating GPT if it does something wrong - the reason why people do it is because it works. With GPT-4 especially, you can often ask it to analyze its own response for correctness, and it will find the errors without you explicitly pointing them out. You can even ask it to write a new prompt for itself that would minimize the probability of such errors in the future.
With respect to interrogating GPT if it does something wrong - the reason why people do it is because it works. With GPT-4 especially, you can often ask it to analyze its own response for correctness, and it will find the errors without you explicitly pointing them out. You can even ask it to write a new prompt for itself that would minimize the probability of such errors in the future.
There once was a Cat in New York
Who got caught for feeding some Rats ; Tremendous Work!
All the people tell me, many men, biggly men - many with tears in their eyes...
That I have done nothing legally-wise
But the truth is ; I am an enormous dork.
>>_Created by an actual Human Being with actual DNA for crime scene evidence._
-
But just when they tried to brush under a rug
To try to make the folks 'shrug'
Is the Streisand Effect as a scar
As everyone knows of payments to a Porn Star
And the nation will know youre a simple thug.
Who got caught for feeding some Rats ; Tremendous Work!
All the people tell me, many men, biggly men - many with tears in their eyes...
That I have done nothing legally-wise
But the truth is ; I am an enormous dork.
>>_Created by an actual Human Being with actual DNA for crime scene evidence._
-
But just when they tried to brush under a rug
To try to make the folks 'shrug'
Is the Streisand Effect as a scar
As everyone knows of payments to a Porn Star
And the nation will know youre a simple thug.
There once was a man in New York
Guilty of paying too much for pork
He thought he would never stand
on a trial from the local grand
but corruption was just part of the work.
Guilty of paying too much for pork
He thought he would never stand
on a trial from the local grand
but corruption was just part of the work.
>Like if I say "Write a Limerick about cats eating rats" isn't it just generating words that will come after that context, and correctly guessing that they'll rhyme in a certain way?
I guess ... this is what confuses me. GPT -- at least, the core functionality of GPT-based products as presented to the end user -- can't just be a language model, can it? There must be vanishingly view examples from its training text that start as "Write a Limerick", followed immediately by some limerick -- most such poems do not appear in that context at all! If it were just "generating some text that's likely to come after that in the training set", you'd probably see some continuations that look more like advice for writing Limericks.
And the training text definitely doesn't have stuff like, "As a language model, I can't provide opinions on religion" that coincides precisely with the things OpenAI doesn't want its current product version to output.
Now, you might say, "okay okay sure, they reach in and tweak it to have special logic for cases like that, but it's mostly Just A Language Model". But I don't quite buy that either -- there must be something outside the language model that is doing significant work in e.g. connecting commands with "text that is following those commands", and that seems like non-trivial work in itself, not reasonably classified as a language model.[2]
If my point isn't clear, here is the analogous point in a different context: often someone will build an AND gate out of pneumatic tubes and say, "look, I made a pneumatic computer, isn't that so trippy? This is what a computer is doing, just with electronics instead! Golly gee, it's so impressive what compressed air is [what LLMs are] capable of!"
Well, no. That thing might count as an ALU[1] (a very limited one), but if you want to get the core, impressive functionality of the things-we-call-computers, you have to include a bunch of other, nontrivial, orthogonal functionality, like a) the ability read and execute a lot of such instructions, and b) to read/write from some persistent state (memory), and c) have that state reliably interact with external systems. Logic gates (d) are just one piece of that!
It seems GPT-based software is likewise solving other major problems, with LLMs just one piece, just like logic gates are just one piece of what a computer is doing.
Now, if we lived in a world where a), b), and c) were well-solved problems to point of triviality, but d) were a frustratingly difficult problem that people tried and failed at for years, then I would feel comfortable saying, "wow, look at the power of logic gates!" because their solution was the one thing holding up functional computers. But I don't think we're in that world with respect to LLMs and "the other core functionality they're implementing".
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic_logic_unit?useskin=...
[2] For example, the chaining together of calls to external services for specific types of information.
I guess ... this is what confuses me. GPT -- at least, the core functionality of GPT-based products as presented to the end user -- can't just be a language model, can it? There must be vanishingly view examples from its training text that start as "Write a Limerick", followed immediately by some limerick -- most such poems do not appear in that context at all! If it were just "generating some text that's likely to come after that in the training set", you'd probably see some continuations that look more like advice for writing Limericks.
And the training text definitely doesn't have stuff like, "As a language model, I can't provide opinions on religion" that coincides precisely with the things OpenAI doesn't want its current product version to output.
Now, you might say, "okay okay sure, they reach in and tweak it to have special logic for cases like that, but it's mostly Just A Language Model". But I don't quite buy that either -- there must be something outside the language model that is doing significant work in e.g. connecting commands with "text that is following those commands", and that seems like non-trivial work in itself, not reasonably classified as a language model.[2]
If my point isn't clear, here is the analogous point in a different context: often someone will build an AND gate out of pneumatic tubes and say, "look, I made a pneumatic computer, isn't that so trippy? This is what a computer is doing, just with electronics instead! Golly gee, it's so impressive what compressed air is [what LLMs are] capable of!"
Well, no. That thing might count as an ALU[1] (a very limited one), but if you want to get the core, impressive functionality of the things-we-call-computers, you have to include a bunch of other, nontrivial, orthogonal functionality, like a) the ability read and execute a lot of such instructions, and b) to read/write from some persistent state (memory), and c) have that state reliably interact with external systems. Logic gates (d) are just one piece of that!
It seems GPT-based software is likewise solving other major problems, with LLMs just one piece, just like logic gates are just one piece of what a computer is doing.
Now, if we lived in a world where a), b), and c) were well-solved problems to point of triviality, but d) were a frustratingly difficult problem that people tried and failed at for years, then I would feel comfortable saying, "wow, look at the power of logic gates!" because their solution was the one thing holding up functional computers. But I don't think we're in that world with respect to LLMs and "the other core functionality they're implementing".
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic_logic_unit?useskin=...
[2] For example, the chaining together of calls to external services for specific types of information.
I think you're really undervaluing the capabilities of language models. I would put an AND gate and this language model at opposite ends in terms of complexity. It is not just words, it's a very broad and deep hierarchy of learned all-encompassing concepts. That's what gives it its power.
A good article and well articulated!
I would change the introduction to be more impartial and not anthropomorphize GPT. It is not smart and it is not skilled in any tasks other than that for which it is designed.
I have the same reservations about the conclusion. The whole middle of the article is good. But to then compare the richness of our human experience to an algorithm that was plainly explained? And then to speculate on whether an algorithm can "think" and if it will "destroy society," weakens the whole article.
I really would like to see more technical writing of this sort geared towards a general audience without the speculation and science-fiction pontificating.
Good effort!
I would change the introduction to be more impartial and not anthropomorphize GPT. It is not smart and it is not skilled in any tasks other than that for which it is designed.
I have the same reservations about the conclusion. The whole middle of the article is good. But to then compare the richness of our human experience to an algorithm that was plainly explained? And then to speculate on whether an algorithm can "think" and if it will "destroy society," weakens the whole article.
I really would like to see more technical writing of this sort geared towards a general audience without the speculation and science-fiction pontificating.
Good effort!
> it is not skilled in any tasks other than that for which it is designed.
But it wasn't designed. It's not a computer program, where one can make confident predictions about its limitations based on the source code.
It's a very large black box. It was trained on guessing the next word. Does that fact alone prove that it cannot have evolved certain internal structures during the training?
Do you claim that an artificial neural network with trillions of neurons can never be intelligent, no matter the structure?
Or is the claim that this particular neural network with trillions of neurons is not intelligent? If so, what is the reasoning?
> It is not smart
"Not smart" = "not able to reason intelligently".
Is that a falsifiable claim?
What would the empirical test look like that would show us if the claim is correct or not?
Look, I realize that "GPT-4 is intelligent" is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.
But I think we're starting to see such extraordinary evidence, illustrated by the examples below.
https://openai.com/research/gpt-4 (For instance, the "Visual inputs" section)
Microsoft AI research: Many convincing examples, summarized with:
"The central claim of our work is that GPT-4 attains a form of general intelligence, indeed showing sparks of artificial general intelligence.
This is demonstrated by its core mental capabilities (such as reasoning, creativity, and deduction), its range of topics on which it has gained expertise (such as literature, medicine, and coding), and the variety of tasks it is able to perform (e.g., playing games, using tools, explaining itself, ...)."
https://arxiv.org/abs/2303.12712
But it wasn't designed. It's not a computer program, where one can make confident predictions about its limitations based on the source code.
It's a very large black box. It was trained on guessing the next word. Does that fact alone prove that it cannot have evolved certain internal structures during the training?
Do you claim that an artificial neural network with trillions of neurons can never be intelligent, no matter the structure?
Or is the claim that this particular neural network with trillions of neurons is not intelligent? If so, what is the reasoning?
> It is not smart
"Not smart" = "not able to reason intelligently".
Is that a falsifiable claim?
What would the empirical test look like that would show us if the claim is correct or not?
Look, I realize that "GPT-4 is intelligent" is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.
But I think we're starting to see such extraordinary evidence, illustrated by the examples below.
https://openai.com/research/gpt-4 (For instance, the "Visual inputs" section)
Microsoft AI research: Many convincing examples, summarized with:
"The central claim of our work is that GPT-4 attains a form of general intelligence, indeed showing sparks of artificial general intelligence.
This is demonstrated by its core mental capabilities (such as reasoning, creativity, and deduction), its range of topics on which it has gained expertise (such as literature, medicine, and coding), and the variety of tasks it is able to perform (e.g., playing games, using tools, explaining itself, ...)."
https://arxiv.org/abs/2303.12712
> It's a very large black box. It was trained on guessing the next word. Does that fact alone prove that it cannot have evolved certain internal structures during the training?
Yes. There is interesting work to formalize these black boxes to be able to connect what was generated back to its inputs. There’s no need to ascribe any belief that they can evolve, modify themselves, or spontaneously develop intelligence.
As far as I’m aware no man made machine has ever exhibited the ability to evolve.
> Do you claim that an artificial neural network with trillions of neurons can never be intelligent, no matter the structure?
If, by structure, you mean some algorithm and memory layout in a modern computer I think this sounds like a reasonable claim.
NN, RNN, etc are super, super cool. But they’re not magic. And what I’m arguing in this thread is that people who don’t understand the maths and research are making wild claims about AGI that are not justified.
> Look, I realize that "GPT-4 is intelligent" is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.
That’s the crux of it.
Yes. There is interesting work to formalize these black boxes to be able to connect what was generated back to its inputs. There’s no need to ascribe any belief that they can evolve, modify themselves, or spontaneously develop intelligence.
As far as I’m aware no man made machine has ever exhibited the ability to evolve.
> Do you claim that an artificial neural network with trillions of neurons can never be intelligent, no matter the structure?
If, by structure, you mean some algorithm and memory layout in a modern computer I think this sounds like a reasonable claim.
NN, RNN, etc are super, super cool. But they’re not magic. And what I’m arguing in this thread is that people who don’t understand the maths and research are making wild claims about AGI that are not justified.
> Look, I realize that "GPT-4 is intelligent" is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.
That’s the crux of it.
> There’s no need to ascribe any belief that they can evolve, modify themselves, or spontaneously develop intelligence.
But neural networks clearly evolve and are modified during training. Otherwise they would never get any better than a random collection of weights and biases, right?
Is the claim then that an artificial neural network can never be trained in such a way that it will exhibit intelligent behavior?
>> Do you claim that an artificial neural network with trillions of neurons can never be intelligent, no matter the structure?
> If, by structure, you mean some algorithm and memory layout in a modern computer I think this sounds like a reasonable claim.
Yes, that's what I mean.
Is your claim that no Turing machine can be intelligent?
>> Look, I realize that "GPT-4 is intelligent" is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.
> That’s the crux of it.
And I provided links to such evidence. Is there a rebuttal?
If we're saying that GPT-4 is not intelligent, there must be questions that intelligent humans can answer that GPT-4 can't, right?
What is the type of logical problem one can give GPT-4 that it cannot solve, but most humans will?
But neural networks clearly evolve and are modified during training. Otherwise they would never get any better than a random collection of weights and biases, right?
Is the claim then that an artificial neural network can never be trained in such a way that it will exhibit intelligent behavior?
>> Do you claim that an artificial neural network with trillions of neurons can never be intelligent, no matter the structure?
> If, by structure, you mean some algorithm and memory layout in a modern computer I think this sounds like a reasonable claim.
Yes, that's what I mean.
Is your claim that no Turing machine can be intelligent?
>> Look, I realize that "GPT-4 is intelligent" is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.
> That’s the crux of it.
And I provided links to such evidence. Is there a rebuttal?
If we're saying that GPT-4 is not intelligent, there must be questions that intelligent humans can answer that GPT-4 can't, right?
What is the type of logical problem one can give GPT-4 that it cannot solve, but most humans will?
> Is the claim then that an artificial neural network can never be trained in such a way that it will exhibit intelligent behavior?
I think it’s not likely a NN can be trained to exhibit any kind of autonomous intelligence.
Science has good models and theories of what intelligence is, what constitutes consciousness, and these models are continuing to evolve based on what we find in nature.
I don’t doubt that we can train NN, RNN, and deep learning NN to specific tasks that plausibly emulate or exceed human abilities.
That we have these deep learning systems that can learn supervised and unsupervised is super cool. And again, fully explainable maths that anyone with enough education and patience can understand.
I’m interested in seeing some of these algorithms formalized and maybe even adding automated theorem proving capabilities to them in the future.
But in none of these cases do I believe these systems are intelligent, conscious, or capable of autonomous thought like any organism or system we know of. They’re just programs we can execute on a computer that perform a particular task we designed them to perform.
Yes, it can generate some impressive pictures and text. It can be useful for all kinds of applications. But it’s not a living, breathing, thinking, autonomous organism. It’s a program that generates a bunch of numbers and strings.
But when popular media starts calling ChatGPT “intelligent,” we’re performing a mental leap here that also absolves the people employing LLM’s from responsibility for how they’re used.
ChatGPT isn’t going to I take your job. Capitalists who don’t want to pay people to do work are going to lay off workers and not replace them because the few workers that remain can do more of the work with ChatGPT.
Society isn’t threatened by ChatGPT becoming self aware and deciding it hates humans. It cannot even decide such things. It is threatened by scammers who have a tool that can generate lots of plausible sounding social media accounts to make a fake application for a credit card or to socially engineer a call centre rep into divulging secrets.
I think it’s not likely a NN can be trained to exhibit any kind of autonomous intelligence.
Science has good models and theories of what intelligence is, what constitutes consciousness, and these models are continuing to evolve based on what we find in nature.
I don’t doubt that we can train NN, RNN, and deep learning NN to specific tasks that plausibly emulate or exceed human abilities.
That we have these deep learning systems that can learn supervised and unsupervised is super cool. And again, fully explainable maths that anyone with enough education and patience can understand.
I’m interested in seeing some of these algorithms formalized and maybe even adding automated theorem proving capabilities to them in the future.
But in none of these cases do I believe these systems are intelligent, conscious, or capable of autonomous thought like any organism or system we know of. They’re just programs we can execute on a computer that perform a particular task we designed them to perform.
Yes, it can generate some impressive pictures and text. It can be useful for all kinds of applications. But it’s not a living, breathing, thinking, autonomous organism. It’s a program that generates a bunch of numbers and strings.
But when popular media starts calling ChatGPT “intelligent,” we’re performing a mental leap here that also absolves the people employing LLM’s from responsibility for how they’re used.
ChatGPT isn’t going to I take your job. Capitalists who don’t want to pay people to do work are going to lay off workers and not replace them because the few workers that remain can do more of the work with ChatGPT.
Society isn’t threatened by ChatGPT becoming self aware and deciding it hates humans. It cannot even decide such things. It is threatened by scammers who have a tool that can generate lots of plausible sounding social media accounts to make a fake application for a credit card or to socially engineer a call centre rep into divulging secrets.
> "it’s not a living, breathing, thinking, autonomous organism"
> "autonomous intelligence"
> "what constitutes consciousness"
> "autonomous thought"
In my mind, this is a list of different concepts.
GPT-4 is definitely not living, breathing or autonomous. It doesn't take any actions on its own. It just responds to text.
Can we stay on just the topic of intelligence?
Let's take this narrow definition: "the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas".
> But in none of these cases do I believe these systems are intelligent
It should be possible to measure whether an entity is intelligent just by asking it questions, right?
Let's say we have an unknown entity at the other end of a web interface. We want to decide where it falls on a scale between stochastic parrot and an intelligent being.
What questions about logical reasoning and problem solving can we ask it to decide that?
And where has GPT-4 failed in that regard?
> "autonomous intelligence"
> "what constitutes consciousness"
> "autonomous thought"
In my mind, this is a list of different concepts.
GPT-4 is definitely not living, breathing or autonomous. It doesn't take any actions on its own. It just responds to text.
Can we stay on just the topic of intelligence?
Let's take this narrow definition: "the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas".
> But in none of these cases do I believe these systems are intelligent
It should be possible to measure whether an entity is intelligent just by asking it questions, right?
Let's say we have an unknown entity at the other end of a web interface. We want to decide where it falls on a scale between stochastic parrot and an intelligent being.
What questions about logical reasoning and problem solving can we ask it to decide that?
And where has GPT-4 failed in that regard?
>But it wasn't designed. It's not a computer program, where one can make confident predictions about its limitations based on the source code.
It definitely is exactly that. It's not any more special than any other program that you can write. I am not totally sure that what you describe could ever exist at all.
What makes this program "magic" compared to any other program exactly? There is no physical difference between it and a "regular" program. Both of them are a bunch of source code that gets compiled into an executable and ran by the underlying OS and hardware. There is nothing physically different between it and other software.
https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2023/02/what-is-chatgpt-...
It definitely is exactly that. It's not any more special than any other program that you can write. I am not totally sure that what you describe could ever exist at all.
What makes this program "magic" compared to any other program exactly? There is no physical difference between it and a "regular" program. Both of them are a bunch of source code that gets compiled into an executable and ran by the underlying OS and hardware. There is nothing physically different between it and other software.
https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2023/02/what-is-chatgpt-...
Another example of "evolved behavior" is here, where a robot is trained to walk, run, etc:
https://mrl.snu.ac.kr/research/ProjectAgile/Agile.html
This is done using neural networks. I believe a project like that can be done by a few researchers over months, not years?
If you do this using "regular programming" instead, you'd have to write an insanely complex application that uses inverse kinematics etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse_kinematics
A project like that requires a large team of developers, working over many years. Boston Dynamics is one example.
https://mrl.snu.ac.kr/research/ProjectAgile/Agile.html
This is done using neural networks. I believe a project like that can be done by a few researchers over months, not years?
If you do this using "regular programming" instead, you'd have to write an insanely complex application that uses inverse kinematics etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse_kinematics
A project like that requires a large team of developers, working over many years. Boston Dynamics is one example.
There is no such thing as non-regular programming though, that's my point.
All programs that run on the computer have the same "power" in terms of what they can do and what can be computed using them. A program that implements a neural net is not inherently any different than a silly python script. One just does a lot more stuff and is much more interesting.
All programs that run on the computer have the same "power" in terms of what they can do and what can be computed using them. A program that implements a neural net is not inherently any different than a silly python script. One just does a lot more stuff and is much more interesting.
Sure, if you drill down, everything is just a Turing machine.
And then we can drill down even further where everything is just physics with atoms, quantum mechanics, etc.
So you're not different from a computer. Both are just physics.
But that's not a useful world view in my opinion.
I think "regular" and "non-regular" programming is a useful distinction.
In regular programming, I have to write explicit implementations of the algorithms in the program.
In "non-regular programming" (neural networks), I just have to know how to set up and train neural networks.
Once I do that, the neural networks can be trained to evolve algorithms that I myself don't know how to implement.
Don't you see the big difference between "I have to code the algorithms" and "the computer does it for me"?
And then we can drill down even further where everything is just physics with atoms, quantum mechanics, etc.
So you're not different from a computer. Both are just physics.
But that's not a useful world view in my opinion.
I think "regular" and "non-regular" programming is a useful distinction.
In regular programming, I have to write explicit implementations of the algorithms in the program.
In "non-regular programming" (neural networks), I just have to know how to set up and train neural networks.
Once I do that, the neural networks can be trained to evolve algorithms that I myself don't know how to implement.
Don't you see the big difference between "I have to code the algorithms" and "the computer does it for me"?
>So you're not different from a computer. Both are just physics.
Well I do actually believe this! To me it's the only logical thing. The laws of physics apply equally to a brain and a computer, one is just a lot more fancy than the other one.
>Don't you see the big difference between "I have to code the algorithms" and "the computer does it for me"?
I do see the difference and understand what you are getting at. I agree that it's useful to distinguish them in general.
It's also useful to realize that it is just a regular program at the end of the day too, just a really complicated one that does some neat stuff. Believing that AI is "magic" is pretty dangerous I think.
Well I do actually believe this! To me it's the only logical thing. The laws of physics apply equally to a brain and a computer, one is just a lot more fancy than the other one.
>Don't you see the big difference between "I have to code the algorithms" and "the computer does it for me"?
I do see the difference and understand what you are getting at. I agree that it's useful to distinguish them in general.
It's also useful to realize that it is just a regular program at the end of the day too, just a really complicated one that does some neat stuff. Believing that AI is "magic" is pretty dangerous I think.
> Well I do actually believe this! To me it's the only logical thing. The laws of physics apply equally to a brain and a computer, one is just a lot more fancy than the other one.
I agree 100% with this statement taken in isolation. I don't believe there's more to a human brain than physics.
There is an interesting theory about the brain using quantum mechanics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind), but that still puts it firmly in the realm of physics even it is true.
My point about "it's all just atoms" was about the fact that we need mental models to discuss things. The models will never be perfectly accurate. Just like software frameworks, they're leaky abstractions. Sure, some models are just plain wrong and should be discarded, but in general we can't reason without them.
And it looks like you agree with that (?):
> I do see the difference and understand what you are getting at. I agree that it's useful to distinguish them in general.
Thanks!
So, on to the core of the discussion:
> It's also useful to realize that it is just a regular program at the end of the day too, just a really complicated one that does some neat stuff.
Sure. If you look at GPT-4 as a whole, it's just a regular program that executes like any other program. It has instructions that use internal data to process inputs from the user and responds with an output to the user.
Nothing new here. Any Turing machine can do this, given enough time and memory. Heck, I saw a video of an 8-bit AVR boot Linux using a simple ARM instruction simulator. Only took 3.5 hours to get the login prompt :)
> Believing that AI is "magic" is pretty dangerous I think.
Not sure what you mean exactly with the "magic" part? Is this a point about something other people think that is inaccurate? Or did I write something that you don't agree with?
To restate my position: I currently believe the neural networks inside the LLMs used to be "stochastic parrots", but that we saw a step-change in performance 1-2 years ago.
We reached a new level of model size (>100B parameters), training data (trillions of tokens), and training time (>1M GPU hours). Somehow the backpropagation training of the neural networks changed the network parameters so that algorithmic processing capabilities emerged.
This isn't fundamentally different from neural networks evolving algorithms to perform OCR, FFTs, balancing a inverted pendulum, playing Go, etc.
Here, the LLMs evolved language processing algorithms. Not only that, they started evolving algorithms for reasoning, abstraction, logic, planning, and problem-solving. Together with that they also formed models about the world to help with the reasoning.
This was driven by the training which seeks to optimize the accuracy of the next word prediction. Lookup tables only get you so far here. At some point you need to understand the context to accurately predict the next word.
For example, in French and German, there are multiple variants of the word "it". To translate the English phrases: "The box wouldn't fit in the suitcase because it was too large" and "The box wouldn't fit in the suitcase because it was too small", you need to understand if "it" refers to the box or the suitcase.
There are 10^80 atoms in the universe. Even if you assume a tiny vocabulary of 100 words, you get more than 10^80 possible combinations after stringing 40 words together. And even if you have unlimited storage, there's not 10^80 tokens to train with. And even with unlimited storage and examples, we don't have unlimited CPU cycles for the training.
So it's clear to me that a "stochastic parrot" (or Chinese room) will be very simplistic even in 1000 years, no matter how much computers progress in that time. And therefore, the latest LLMs must have evolved algorithms for reasoning, abstraction, logic, planning, and problem-solving.
I don't know if that is what you mean by "magic"?
To me, that's not magic. It's just an algorithm (neural network training) creating algorithms and data structures. Impressive as heck for sure, but not magic. I could be wrong, and am more than happy to consider alternatives if you have any?
We have recent examples of similar emergent behavior from big neural networks where they evolve algorithms far beyond what a human programmer can create. For example, AlphaGo which beat the human Go champion. The AlphaGo programmers could never beat him, but they managed to evolve a program that were "smarter" than them (no, Go-playing is not general intelligence).
Now, I could be wrong about the level of intelligence with the latest LLMs like GPT-4. Maybe they're a lot dumber than they appear. But in that case I'm in good company. From what I can tell, the major AI researchers agree with me in that GPT-4 possesses some form of intelligence. It's not a stochastic parrot.
And to end with something I agree with: You wrote that whatever happens because of LLMs in the near future, it's because of human actions. I agree. The LLMs have no agency in themselves. It's humans that use and misuse them.
I agree 100% with this statement taken in isolation. I don't believe there's more to a human brain than physics.
There is an interesting theory about the brain using quantum mechanics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind), but that still puts it firmly in the realm of physics even it is true.
My point about "it's all just atoms" was about the fact that we need mental models to discuss things. The models will never be perfectly accurate. Just like software frameworks, they're leaky abstractions. Sure, some models are just plain wrong and should be discarded, but in general we can't reason without them.
And it looks like you agree with that (?):
> I do see the difference and understand what you are getting at. I agree that it's useful to distinguish them in general.
Thanks!
So, on to the core of the discussion:
> It's also useful to realize that it is just a regular program at the end of the day too, just a really complicated one that does some neat stuff.
Sure. If you look at GPT-4 as a whole, it's just a regular program that executes like any other program. It has instructions that use internal data to process inputs from the user and responds with an output to the user.
Nothing new here. Any Turing machine can do this, given enough time and memory. Heck, I saw a video of an 8-bit AVR boot Linux using a simple ARM instruction simulator. Only took 3.5 hours to get the login prompt :)
> Believing that AI is "magic" is pretty dangerous I think.
Not sure what you mean exactly with the "magic" part? Is this a point about something other people think that is inaccurate? Or did I write something that you don't agree with?
To restate my position: I currently believe the neural networks inside the LLMs used to be "stochastic parrots", but that we saw a step-change in performance 1-2 years ago.
We reached a new level of model size (>100B parameters), training data (trillions of tokens), and training time (>1M GPU hours). Somehow the backpropagation training of the neural networks changed the network parameters so that algorithmic processing capabilities emerged.
This isn't fundamentally different from neural networks evolving algorithms to perform OCR, FFTs, balancing a inverted pendulum, playing Go, etc.
Here, the LLMs evolved language processing algorithms. Not only that, they started evolving algorithms for reasoning, abstraction, logic, planning, and problem-solving. Together with that they also formed models about the world to help with the reasoning.
This was driven by the training which seeks to optimize the accuracy of the next word prediction. Lookup tables only get you so far here. At some point you need to understand the context to accurately predict the next word.
For example, in French and German, there are multiple variants of the word "it". To translate the English phrases: "The box wouldn't fit in the suitcase because it was too large" and "The box wouldn't fit in the suitcase because it was too small", you need to understand if "it" refers to the box or the suitcase.
There are 10^80 atoms in the universe. Even if you assume a tiny vocabulary of 100 words, you get more than 10^80 possible combinations after stringing 40 words together. And even if you have unlimited storage, there's not 10^80 tokens to train with. And even with unlimited storage and examples, we don't have unlimited CPU cycles for the training.
So it's clear to me that a "stochastic parrot" (or Chinese room) will be very simplistic even in 1000 years, no matter how much computers progress in that time. And therefore, the latest LLMs must have evolved algorithms for reasoning, abstraction, logic, planning, and problem-solving.
I don't know if that is what you mean by "magic"?
To me, that's not magic. It's just an algorithm (neural network training) creating algorithms and data structures. Impressive as heck for sure, but not magic. I could be wrong, and am more than happy to consider alternatives if you have any?
We have recent examples of similar emergent behavior from big neural networks where they evolve algorithms far beyond what a human programmer can create. For example, AlphaGo which beat the human Go champion. The AlphaGo programmers could never beat him, but they managed to evolve a program that were "smarter" than them (no, Go-playing is not general intelligence).
Now, I could be wrong about the level of intelligence with the latest LLMs like GPT-4. Maybe they're a lot dumber than they appear. But in that case I'm in good company. From what I can tell, the major AI researchers agree with me in that GPT-4 possesses some form of intelligence. It's not a stochastic parrot.
And to end with something I agree with: You wrote that whatever happens because of LLMs in the near future, it's because of human actions. I agree. The LLMs have no agency in themselves. It's humans that use and misuse them.
Wow this is a really good reply. Thanks for taking the time to write all of this!
I think I agree with pretty much all that you have said here actually, this is one of the better and more accurate descriptions of the current state of things that I have read in general!
As far as the magic thing goes, I was replying to this specifically, and other similar statements made in other parts of the thread and even in the original post (the blog post or whatever you call it) itself, and even more so in the media:
>But it wasn't designed. It's not a computer program, where one can make confident predictions about its limitations based on the source code.
There have been media headlines about the potential for modern AIs to turn evil and destroy the human race sci-fi movie style. I think people who believe this do believe that current AI is "magic" in some sense but I'm not totally sure how to pin down exactly how.
I think I agree with pretty much all that you have said here actually, this is one of the better and more accurate descriptions of the current state of things that I have read in general!
As far as the magic thing goes, I was replying to this specifically, and other similar statements made in other parts of the thread and even in the original post (the blog post or whatever you call it) itself, and even more so in the media:
>But it wasn't designed. It's not a computer program, where one can make confident predictions about its limitations based on the source code.
There have been media headlines about the potential for modern AIs to turn evil and destroy the human race sci-fi movie style. I think people who believe this do believe that current AI is "magic" in some sense but I'm not totally sure how to pin down exactly how.
Thanks, I appreciate it!
> There have been media headlines about the potential for modern AIs to turn evil and destroy the human race sci-fi movie style.
Yeah, the public debate isn't very balanced in either direction.
> There have been media headlines about the potential for modern AIs to turn evil and destroy the human race sci-fi movie style.
Yeah, the public debate isn't very balanced in either direction.
No, machine learning models are not programs and they are not compiled from source code. They are the output of non-deterministic matrix multiplication operations which take encoded data as the input. They can then be used as a black box by an actual program to calculate useful outputs.
The program which takes your text and runs a final calculation on it against the machine learning model to get an output is a program. But that program is not doing anything interesting. All the interesting work was done when the model was cooked up in a black-box non-deterministic process by some other GPUs somewhere else well before it ever came near the inference program.
The program which takes your text and runs a final calculation on it against the machine learning model to get an output is a program. But that program is not doing anything interesting. All the interesting work was done when the model was cooked up in a black-box non-deterministic process by some other GPUs somewhere else well before it ever came near the inference program.
> "They are the output of non-deterministic matrix multiplication operations"
Just a nit-pick: Aren't neural networks and LLMs perfectly deterministic?
I think you can reproduce GPT-4 perfectly if you have access to the same source code, training data, and the seeds for the random number generators that they used?
As a side note, I think it'd be theoretically possible to do this on a small 8-bit microcontroller given enough time and external storage. That's the beauty of Turing machines.
This would not be practical in the least. But it sure was cool seeing a guy boot Linux in just 3.5 hours on a small 8-bit AVR microcontroller.
https://dmitry.gr/?r=05.Projects&proj=07.%20Linux%20on%208bi...
Just a nit-pick: Aren't neural networks and LLMs perfectly deterministic?
I think you can reproduce GPT-4 perfectly if you have access to the same source code, training data, and the seeds for the random number generators that they used?
As a side note, I think it'd be theoretically possible to do this on a small 8-bit microcontroller given enough time and external storage. That's the beauty of Turing machines.
This would not be practical in the least. But it sure was cool seeing a guy boot Linux in just 3.5 hours on a small 8-bit AVR microcontroller.
https://dmitry.gr/?r=05.Projects&proj=07.%20Linux%20on%208bi...
Multi-core math on GPU and CPU is non-deterministic for performance and scheduling reasons.
The errors are small rounding errors that maybe don't have any serious implications right now. But the larger models get and the more operations and cores it takes to train them the more the rounding errors creep up.
The errors are small rounding errors that maybe don't have any serious implications right now. But the larger models get and the more operations and cores it takes to train them the more the rounding errors creep up.
> Multi-core math on GPU and CPU is non-deterministic for performance and scheduling reasons.
Ok, I see what you mean.
I can see how that could be the case. It depends on how the software is designed.
Now that I looked up it, I was surprised to see that PyTorch may generate non-reproducible results: https://pytorch.org/docs/stable/notes/randomness.html
But it looks like the sources of non-determinism in PyTorch are known, and can be avoided with a lot of work and loss of performance?
And for the general case, I don't think it's impossible to write deterministic code for multi-core processors?
> The errors are small rounding errors
But rounding errors don't imply non-deterministic answers, right? Just that the answer is different from the true answer?
Calculating the square root of 2 will have a rounding error with 32-bit floating point, but are you saying that you'll get different bit patterns in your FP32 due to rounding errors?
Ok, I see what you mean.
I can see how that could be the case. It depends on how the software is designed.
Now that I looked up it, I was surprised to see that PyTorch may generate non-reproducible results: https://pytorch.org/docs/stable/notes/randomness.html
But it looks like the sources of non-determinism in PyTorch are known, and can be avoided with a lot of work and loss of performance?
And for the general case, I don't think it's impossible to write deterministic code for multi-core processors?
> The errors are small rounding errors
But rounding errors don't imply non-deterministic answers, right? Just that the answer is different from the true answer?
Calculating the square root of 2 will have a rounding error with 32-bit floating point, but are you saying that you'll get different bit patterns in your FP32 due to rounding errors?
Thanks for saving me the time to write the same reply :)
To expand a bit:
I can write simple image processing code that will find lines in an image.
But I can't write the code to perform OCR (optical character recognition).
However, in the early 90's, I wrote a simple C program that trained a neural network to perform OCR. It was a toy project that took a weekend.
There are many things where I could train a neural network to do something, but couldn't write explicit source code to perform the same task.
If you (chlorion) look up "genetic algorithms", you'll find many clear examples of where very impressive algorithms were evolved using a simple training program.
To expand a bit:
I can write simple image processing code that will find lines in an image.
But I can't write the code to perform OCR (optical character recognition).
However, in the early 90's, I wrote a simple C program that trained a neural network to perform OCR. It was a toy project that took a weekend.
There are many things where I could train a neural network to do something, but couldn't write explicit source code to perform the same task.
If you (chlorion) look up "genetic algorithms", you'll find many clear examples of where very impressive algorithms were evolved using a simple training program.
So I reread here and I think I misunderstood what you meant.
I meant that the process of generating the models, and otherwise interacting with them are regular programs. The model itself is I guess more like a database or something, but it too is just regular data.
The original thing I was replying to was claiming that the process in general was "not a program", as if there was some magic thing going on that made the model different from output of other programs, or the training was somehow magical. (that is how I read it at least)
I meant that the process of generating the models, and otherwise interacting with them are regular programs. The model itself is I guess more like a database or something, but it too is just regular data.
The original thing I was replying to was claiming that the process in general was "not a program", as if there was some magic thing going on that made the model different from output of other programs, or the training was somehow magical. (that is how I read it at least)
If they aren't programs, how do they run on computers?
CPUs and GPUs physically cannot do anything other than execute programs which are encoded into bytecode.
What you are describing is that the language model is "magic" and breaks the laws of physics. I don't believe in magic personally though.
CPUs and GPUs physically cannot do anything other than execute programs which are encoded into bytecode.
What you are describing is that the language model is "magic" and breaks the laws of physics. I don't believe in magic personally though.
I'm planning on continuing this vulgarization series of "Simply explained", for instance to cover how computers communicate, keep an eye out for them!
Regarding the speculation/destroy society, I was directly answering questions that I got from laypeople around me. The consequences on society I don't think are much speculation: it's going to have a big effect on many jobs, just like AI has started to have but much more. For the philosophical questions, I tried to present both sides of the issue to show that it's not just a clear "yes or no": some people will happily argue with you about GPT being smart/skilled/comparable to a human brain. Anyway, it's just an introduction to the questions that you might have about it.
Regarding the speculation/destroy society, I was directly answering questions that I got from laypeople around me. The consequences on society I don't think are much speculation: it's going to have a big effect on many jobs, just like AI has started to have but much more. For the philosophical questions, I tried to present both sides of the issue to show that it's not just a clear "yes or no": some people will happily argue with you about GPT being smart/skilled/comparable to a human brain. Anyway, it's just an introduction to the questions that you might have about it.
> keep an eye out for them!
I will, thank you! :)
> Regarding the speculation/destroy society, I was directly answering questions that I got from laypeople around me.
I get that. I think it's important in these times that we educate laypersons rather than froth up fears about "AI". It doesn't help, I suppose, that we get questions like this because some lazy billionaire decided to run their mouth off about this or that. Which society then treats like it is news and established fact.
I don't think the speculation about consciousness is as well informed as the rest of the article. There is plenty of science and research about it available and its definition extends well beyond humans! Our understanding of what consciousness is is a thoroughly researched topic in psychology, physiology, biology, etc! It's a fascinating area of study.
Best of luck and keep up the good work!
I will, thank you! :)
> Regarding the speculation/destroy society, I was directly answering questions that I got from laypeople around me.
I get that. I think it's important in these times that we educate laypersons rather than froth up fears about "AI". It doesn't help, I suppose, that we get questions like this because some lazy billionaire decided to run their mouth off about this or that. Which society then treats like it is news and established fact.
I don't think the speculation about consciousness is as well informed as the rest of the article. There is plenty of science and research about it available and its definition extends well beyond humans! Our understanding of what consciousness is is a thoroughly researched topic in psychology, physiology, biology, etc! It's a fascinating area of study.
Best of luck and keep up the good work!
It is not smart and it is not skilled in any tasks other than that for which it is designed.
This seems to me to be obviously incorrect, and should be apparent after a few minutes of playing with GPT4. What makes it so powerful is how general-purpose it is, and it can be used for literally an unlimited set of tasks that involve human language. To say that it's not "smart" begs the question of what exactly constitutes smart and when you'll know that an AI has achieved it.
This seems to me to be obviously incorrect, and should be apparent after a few minutes of playing with GPT4. What makes it so powerful is how general-purpose it is, and it can be used for literally an unlimited set of tasks that involve human language. To say that it's not "smart" begs the question of what exactly constitutes smart and when you'll know that an AI has achieved it.
I agree that it is a good effort. I don't agree with the criticism.
It really depends on who the target audience is. There's been a lot of scare mongering in the news about it lately and I think the last part tries to address that. It first offers an explanation that my parents can understand and then addresses what they have been hearing about in the news.
So, I would say it is great to share it with them and I think they are the intended audience.
It really depends on who the target audience is. There's been a lot of scare mongering in the news about it lately and I think the last part tries to address that. It first offers an explanation that my parents can understand and then addresses what they have been hearing about in the news.
So, I would say it is great to share it with them and I think they are the intended audience.
This site talks *constantly* about the impact of the Internet, the Information Age and social media on society, and its negative effects especially in the case of the third. I think being incredibly concerned about societal stability in the face of such rapid dissolving of our ability to trust our senses, combined with social media, is a valid response.
I've been using GPT4 to code and these explanations are somewhat unsatisfactory. I have seen it seemingly come up with novel solutions in a way that I can't describe in any other way than it is thinking. It's really difficult for me to imagine how such a seemingly simple predictive algorithm could lead to such complex solutions. I'm not sure even the people building these models really grasp it either.
I've started to suspect that generating code is actually one of the easier things for a predictive text completion model to achieve.
Programming languages are a whole lot more structured and predictable than human language.
In JavaScript the only token that ever comes after "if " is "(" for example.
Programming languages are a whole lot more structured and predictable than human language.
In JavaScript the only token that ever comes after "if " is "(" for example.
On the other hand, if you want to use an external library on the line 80, you need to import it at the top.
I once asked it for a short example code of something, no longer than 15 lines and it said "here's a code that's 12 lines long" and then added the code. Did it have the specific code "in mind" already? Or was it just a reasonably-sounding length and it then just came up with code that matched that self-imposed constraint?
I once asked it for a short example code of something, no longer than 15 lines and it said "here's a code that's 12 lines long" and then added the code. Did it have the specific code "in mind" already? Or was it just a reasonably-sounding length and it then just came up with code that matched that self-imposed constraint?
The latter option is closest, but neither is quite right. It would have ~known~ that the problem asked, combined with a phrase for a 15 line limit has associations with a length of 12 lines (perhaps most strongly 12, but depending on temp it could have given other answers). From there it is constrained to (complete) solutions that lead to 12 lines, from the several (partial) solutions that already exist in the weights.
I loved your example. I think that may be an obvious advantage to LLM, humans are poor at learning new languages after adolescence but a LLM can continue to learn and build new connections. Studies show that multilingual people have an easier time making connections and producing new ideas, In the case of programming, we may build something that knows all programming languages and all design patterns and can merge this knowledge to come up with better solutions than the ordinary programmer.
The more constraints there are (e.g. like your example) the better it should perform. So it disappoints me when copilot, knowing what libraries are available in the IDE it's running in, hallucinates up a method call that doesn't exist.
Separately (and apologies for going on a tangent), where do you think we are in the Gartner cycle?
Around GPT3 time I was expecting for trough of disillusionment to come, particularly when we see the results of it being implemented everywhere but it hasn't really come yet. I'm seeing too many examples of good usage (young folks using it for learning, ESL speakers asking for help and revisions, high-level programmers using it to save themselves additional keystrokes, the list is long).
Separately (and apologies for going on a tangent), where do you think we are in the Gartner cycle?
Around GPT3 time I was expecting for trough of disillusionment to come, particularly when we see the results of it being implemented everywhere but it hasn't really come yet. I'm seeing too many examples of good usage (young folks using it for learning, ESL speakers asking for help and revisions, high-level programmers using it to save themselves additional keystrokes, the list is long).
> hallucinates up a method call that doesn't exist
I actually think it helps to reframe this. It hallucinates up a method call that predictively should exist.
If you're working with boto3, maybe that's not actually practical. But if it's a method within your codebase, it's actually a helpful suggestion! And if you prompt it with the declaration and signature of the new method, very often it will write the new helper method for you!
I actually think it helps to reframe this. It hallucinates up a method call that predictively should exist.
If you're working with boto3, maybe that's not actually practical. But if it's a method within your codebase, it's actually a helpful suggestion! And if you prompt it with the declaration and signature of the new method, very often it will write the new helper method for you!
If you have a long iterative session by the end it will have forgotten the helpful hallucinations at the beginning, so then phantom methods evolve in their name and details.
I wonder if it is better at some languages than others. I have been using it for Go for a week or two and it’s ok but not awesome. I am also learning how to work with it, so probably will keep at it, but it is clearly a generative model not a thinking being I am working with.
I wonder if it is better at some languages than others. I have been using it for Go for a week or two and it’s ok but not awesome. I am also learning how to work with it, so probably will keep at it, but it is clearly a generative model not a thinking being I am working with.
No idea about Go, but I was curious how GPT-4 would handle a request to generate C code, so I asked it to help me write a header-only C string processing library with convenience functions like starts_with(), ends_with(), contains(), etc.) I told it every function must only work with String structs defined as:
struct String { char * text; long size; }
...or pointers to them. I then asked it to write tests for the functions it created. Everything... the functions and the tests... worked beautifully. I am not a professional programmer so I mainly use these LLMs for things other than code generation, but the little I've done has left me quite impressed! (Of course, not being a professional programmer no doubt makes me far easier to impress.)
struct String { char * text; long size; }
...or pointers to them. I then asked it to write tests for the functions it created. Everything... the functions and the tests... worked beautifully. I am not a professional programmer so I mainly use these LLMs for things other than code generation, but the little I've done has left me quite impressed! (Of course, not being a professional programmer no doubt makes me far easier to impress.)
Interesting. I haven’t tried it with C. Hopefully the training code for C is higher quality than any other language (because bad C kills). Do you have a GitHub with the output?
Hah, hadn't thought of this but kind of love that take!
Are you using it with static types at all? With TypeScript, I've found that it's quite good at producing the imperative logic, but can struggle with types once they reach a certain level of abstraction. It's interesting that even in the realm of "structured languages", it's a lot stronger at some kinds of inference than others.
> In JavaScript the only token that ever comes after "if " is "(" for example.
I'm pretty sure " " (whitespace) is a token as well, which could come after a `if` as well. I think overall your point is a pretty good one though.
I'm pretty sure " " (whitespace) is a token as well, which could come after a `if` as well. I think overall your point is a pretty good one though.
> I've started to suspect that generating code is actually one of the easier things for a predictive text completion model to achieve.
> Programming languages are a whole lot more structured and predictable than human language.
> In JavaScript the only token that ever comes after "if " is "(" for example.
But isn't that like saying that it's easy to generate English text, all you need is a dictionary table where you randomly pick words?
(BTW, keep up the blog posts, I really enjoy them!)
> Programming languages are a whole lot more structured and predictable than human language.
> In JavaScript the only token that ever comes after "if " is "(" for example.
But isn't that like saying that it's easy to generate English text, all you need is a dictionary table where you randomly pick words?
(BTW, keep up the blog posts, I really enjoy them!)
One thing to bear in mind is that GPT training set for code is supposedly skewed very heavily towards Python.
This!
The advanced capabilities of scaled up transformer models fed oodles of training data has burdened me with pseudo-philosophical questions about the nature of cognition that I am not well equipped to articulate, and make me wish I'd studied more neuroscience, philosophy, and comp sci earlier in life. A possibly off-topic thought dump:
- What is thinking, exactly?
- Does human (or superhuman) thinking require consciousness?
- What even is consciousness? Why is it that when you take a bunch of molecular physical laws and scale them up into a human brain, a signal pattern emerges that feels things like emotions, continuity between moments, desires, contemplation of itself and the surrounding universe, and so on?
- Why and how does a string predictor on steroids turn out to do things that seem so close to a practical definition of thinking? What are the best evidence-based arguments supporting and opposing the statement "GPT4 thinks"? How do people without OpenAI's level of model access try to answer this question?
(And yes, it's occurred to me that I could try asking GPT4 to help me make these questions more complete)
- What is thinking, exactly?
- Does human (or superhuman) thinking require consciousness?
- What even is consciousness? Why is it that when you take a bunch of molecular physical laws and scale them up into a human brain, a signal pattern emerges that feels things like emotions, continuity between moments, desires, contemplation of itself and the surrounding universe, and so on?
- Why and how does a string predictor on steroids turn out to do things that seem so close to a practical definition of thinking? What are the best evidence-based arguments supporting and opposing the statement "GPT4 thinks"? How do people without OpenAI's level of model access try to answer this question?
(And yes, it's occurred to me that I could try asking GPT4 to help me make these questions more complete)
> has burdened me with pseudo-philosophical questions about the nature of cognition that I am not well equipped to articulate, and make me wish I'd studied more neuroscience, philosophy, and comp sci earlier in life
Welcome to the club. There pretty much are no answers, just theories primarily played out as thought experiments. Its on of those areas where you can pick out who knows less (or is being disingenuous) by seeing who most confidently speaks about having answers.
We don't know what consciousness is, and we don't know what it means to "think". There, I saved you a decade of reading.
Edit: My choice theory is panpsychism, https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/panpsychism/ but again, we don't yet know how to verify any of this (or any other theory).
Welcome to the club. There pretty much are no answers, just theories primarily played out as thought experiments. Its on of those areas where you can pick out who knows less (or is being disingenuous) by seeing who most confidently speaks about having answers.
We don't know what consciousness is, and we don't know what it means to "think". There, I saved you a decade of reading.
Edit: My choice theory is panpsychism, https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/panpsychism/ but again, we don't yet know how to verify any of this (or any other theory).
It's interesting to me how many commenters on HN are absolutely convinced that GPT4 is incapable of thought or understanding or reasoning, it's "just" predicting the next word. And then they'll insist that it'll never be able to do things that it's already capable of doing...
Interestingly, more than one of these folks have turned out to be religious. I wonder if increasingly intelligent AI systems will be challenging for religious folks to accept, because it calls into question our place at the pinnacle of God's creation, or it casts doubt upon the existence of a soul, etc.
Interestingly, more than one of these folks have turned out to be religious. I wonder if increasingly intelligent AI systems will be challenging for religious folks to accept, because it calls into question our place at the pinnacle of God's creation, or it casts doubt upon the existence of a soul, etc.
> because it calls into question our place at the pinnacle of God's creation, or it casts doubt upon the existence of a soul
I think this is a very simplistic view, that possibly suggests you haven't talked to many religious people.
I've never known a religious person who thought "thought" was the same as "soul", or that God is neccesarily a requirement for reasoning. Or that any of this is thought about much, considering it's so new.
Although, I suppose that if someone did say that God was a requirement for reasoning, a "logical within that context" perspective might be AI being some vicarious creation, since it wouldn't have been possible without us being able to reason.
I subscribe to the belief that reasoning is an eventual emergent law of nature/information. But, even that could, and does, fit into many "religious" perspectives perfectly well.
I think this is a very simplistic view, that possibly suggests you haven't talked to many religious people.
I've never known a religious person who thought "thought" was the same as "soul", or that God is neccesarily a requirement for reasoning. Or that any of this is thought about much, considering it's so new.
Although, I suppose that if someone did say that God was a requirement for reasoning, a "logical within that context" perspective might be AI being some vicarious creation, since it wouldn't have been possible without us being able to reason.
I subscribe to the belief that reasoning is an eventual emergent law of nature/information. But, even that could, and does, fit into many "religious" perspectives perfectly well.
If we could create a sentient being, it would be the first evidence of it being possible at all. If this casts doubt in the mind of a believer, then it tells us more about what belief is than anything else.
"Interestingly, more than one of these folks have turned out to be religious."
The guy fired by google for announcing LaMDA was sentient was religious.
I don't really see a meaningful distinction between declaring a machine is "thinking" for hand waving religious reasons and hand waving non-religious reasons, I'm afraid.
The guy fired by google for announcing LaMDA was sentient was religious.
I don't really see a meaningful distinction between declaring a machine is "thinking" for hand waving religious reasons and hand waving non-religious reasons, I'm afraid.
It's less unsettling when you think of LLMs as an approximation to a kind of "general intellect" recorded in language. But then the surprising thing is that we as "individual intellects" tend to operate the same way, perhaps more than we imagined.
The hypothesis that I find most compelling and intuitive is that language is thought and vice versa. We made a thing really good at language and it turns out that's also pretty good at thought.
One possible conclusion might be that the only thing keeping GPT algos from going full AGI is a loop and small context windows.
One possible conclusion might be that the only thing keeping GPT algos from going full AGI is a loop and small context windows.
Add the strange loops and embed in a body the interacts with a real or rich virtual word—that should do the trick. Of course there should ideally be an emotional-motivational context.
- Does human (or superhuman) thinking require consciousness?
I was going to write this exactly. I believe these things think. They're just not alive.
- What even is consciousness?
My advice: stay as far as you can from that concept. Wittgenstein already noticed that many philosophical questions are nonsense and specifically mentioned how consciousness as felt from the inside is hopefully incompatible with any observation we make from the outside.
BS concepts like qualia are all the rage now, but ultimately useless.
I was going to write this exactly. I believe these things think. They're just not alive.
- What even is consciousness?
My advice: stay as far as you can from that concept. Wittgenstein already noticed that many philosophical questions are nonsense and specifically mentioned how consciousness as felt from the inside is hopefully incompatible with any observation we make from the outside.
BS concepts like qualia are all the rage now, but ultimately useless.
My views:
The best definition of "intelligence" is "the degree of ability to correctly predict future outcomes based on past experience".
Our cortex (part of the brain used for cognition/thinking) appears to be literally a prediction engine where predicted outcomes (what's going to happen next) are compared to sensory reality and updated on that basis (i.e. we learn by surprise - when we are wrong). This makes sense as an evolutionary pressure since ability to predict location of food sources, behavior of predators, etc, etc, is obviously a huge advantage over being directly reactive to sensory input in the way that simpler animals (e.g. insects) are.
I'd define consciousness as the subjective experience of having a cognitive architecture that has particular feedback paths/connections. The fact that there is an architectural basis to consciousness would seem to be proved by impairments such as "blindsight" where one is able to see, but not conscious of that ability! (eg. ability to navigate a cluttered corridoor, while subjectively blind).
It doesn't seem that consciousness is a requirement for intelligence ("ability to think"), although that predictive capability can presumably benefit from more information, so these feedback paths may well have evolutionary benefit.
The reason a "string predictor on steroids" turns out to be able to do things that seem like thinking is because prediction is the essence of thinking/intelligence! Of course there's a lot internally missing from GPT-4 compared to our brain, for example basics like working memory (any internal state that persists from one output word to the next) and looping/iteration, but feeding it's own output back in does provide somewhat of a substitute for working memory, and external scripting/looping (AutoGPT, etc) goes a long way too.
The best definition of "intelligence" is "the degree of ability to correctly predict future outcomes based on past experience".
Our cortex (part of the brain used for cognition/thinking) appears to be literally a prediction engine where predicted outcomes (what's going to happen next) are compared to sensory reality and updated on that basis (i.e. we learn by surprise - when we are wrong). This makes sense as an evolutionary pressure since ability to predict location of food sources, behavior of predators, etc, etc, is obviously a huge advantage over being directly reactive to sensory input in the way that simpler animals (e.g. insects) are.
I'd define consciousness as the subjective experience of having a cognitive architecture that has particular feedback paths/connections. The fact that there is an architectural basis to consciousness would seem to be proved by impairments such as "blindsight" where one is able to see, but not conscious of that ability! (eg. ability to navigate a cluttered corridoor, while subjectively blind).
It doesn't seem that consciousness is a requirement for intelligence ("ability to think"), although that predictive capability can presumably benefit from more information, so these feedback paths may well have evolutionary benefit.
The reason a "string predictor on steroids" turns out to be able to do things that seem like thinking is because prediction is the essence of thinking/intelligence! Of course there's a lot internally missing from GPT-4 compared to our brain, for example basics like working memory (any internal state that persists from one output word to the next) and looping/iteration, but feeding it's own output back in does provide somewhat of a substitute for working memory, and external scripting/looping (AutoGPT, etc) goes a long way too.
I think since the mechanisms are different we should arrive at a distinction between:
organic thinking (I.e. the process our squishy human brains do)
and mechanical thinking ( the computational and stochastic processes that computers do ).
organic thinking (I.e. the process our squishy human brains do)
and mechanical thinking ( the computational and stochastic processes that computers do ).
I don't think the substrate defines the nature of the thinking, but the form of the process does.
It is entirely possible to build mechanical thinking in organic material (think Turing machines built on growing tissue), and it could also be possible to build complex self-referential processes simulated on electronic hardware, of the kind high-level brains do, with their rhythms of alfa and beta waves.
It is entirely possible to build mechanical thinking in organic material (think Turing machines built on growing tissue), and it could also be possible to build complex self-referential processes simulated on electronic hardware, of the kind high-level brains do, with their rhythms of alfa and beta waves.
> What even is consciousness? Why is it that when you take a bunch of molecular physical laws and scale them up into a human brain, a signal pattern emerges that feels things like emotions, continuity between moments, desires, contemplation of itself and the surrounding universe, and so on?
I doubt we'll ever be able to answer this, even after we create AGI.
I doubt we'll ever be able to answer this, even after we create AGI.
Any overly simple "it's just predicting next word" explanation is really missing the point. It seems more accurate to regard that just as the way they are trained, rather than characterizing what they are learning and therefore what they are doing when they are generating.
There are two ways of looking at this.
1) In order to predict next word probabilities correctly, you need to learn something about the input, and the better you want to get, the more you need to learn. For example, if you just learned part-of-speech categories for words (noun vs verb vs adverb, etc), and what usually follows what, then you would be doing better than chance.. If you want to do better than that they you need to learn the grammar of the underlying language(s).. If you want to do better than that then you start to need to learn the meaning of what is being discussed, etc, etc.
If you want to correctly predict what comes next after "with a board position of ..., Magnus Carlson might play", then you better have learned a whole lot about the meaning of the input!
The "predict next word" training objective and feedback provided doesn't itself limit what can be learned - that's up to the power of the model that is being trained, and evidentially large multi-layer transformers are exceptionally capable. Calling these huge transformers "LLMs" (large language models) is deceptive since beyond a certain scale they are certainly learning a whole lot more than language/grammar.
2) In the words of one of the OpenAI developers (Sutskever), what these models have really learnt is some type of "world model" modelling the underlying generative processes that produced the training data. So, they are not just using surface level statistics to "predict next word", but rather are using the (often very lengthy/detailed) input prompt to "get into the head" of what generated that, and are predicting on that basis.
There are two ways of looking at this.
1) In order to predict next word probabilities correctly, you need to learn something about the input, and the better you want to get, the more you need to learn. For example, if you just learned part-of-speech categories for words (noun vs verb vs adverb, etc), and what usually follows what, then you would be doing better than chance.. If you want to do better than that they you need to learn the grammar of the underlying language(s).. If you want to do better than that then you start to need to learn the meaning of what is being discussed, etc, etc.
If you want to correctly predict what comes next after "with a board position of ..., Magnus Carlson might play", then you better have learned a whole lot about the meaning of the input!
The "predict next word" training objective and feedback provided doesn't itself limit what can be learned - that's up to the power of the model that is being trained, and evidentially large multi-layer transformers are exceptionally capable. Calling these huge transformers "LLMs" (large language models) is deceptive since beyond a certain scale they are certainly learning a whole lot more than language/grammar.
2) In the words of one of the OpenAI developers (Sutskever), what these models have really learnt is some type of "world model" modelling the underlying generative processes that produced the training data. So, they are not just using surface level statistics to "predict next word", but rather are using the (often very lengthy/detailed) input prompt to "get into the head" of what generated that, and are predicting on that basis.
To be deliberately unfair, imagine a huge if-else block — like, a few billion entries big — and each branch played out a carefully chosen and well-written string of text.
It would convince a lot of people with the breadth, despite not really having much depth.
The real GPT model is much deeper than that, of course, but my toy example should at least give a vibe for why even a simple thing might still feel extraordinary.
It would convince a lot of people with the breadth, despite not really having much depth.
The real GPT model is much deeper than that, of course, but my toy example should at least give a vibe for why even a simple thing might still feel extraordinary.
This is absolutely not viable because exponential growth absolutely kills the concept.
Such a system would already struggle with multiple-word inputs and it would be completely impossible to make it scale to even a paragraph of text, even if you had ALL of the observable universe at your disposal for encoding the entries.
Consider: If you just have simple sentences consisting of 3 words (subject, object, verb, with 1000 options each-- very conservative assumptions), then 9 sentences already give more options than you have atoms (!!) in the observable universe (~10^80)
Such a system would already struggle with multiple-word inputs and it would be completely impossible to make it scale to even a paragraph of text, even if you had ALL of the observable universe at your disposal for encoding the entries.
Consider: If you just have simple sentences consisting of 3 words (subject, object, verb, with 1000 options each-- very conservative assumptions), then 9 sentences already give more options than you have atoms (!!) in the observable universe (~10^80)
α: most of those sentences are meaningless so they won't come up in normal use
β: if statements can grab patterns just fine in most languages, they're not limited to pure equality
γ: it's a thought experiment about how easy it can be to create illusions without real depth, and specifically not about making an AGI that stands up to scrutiny
β: if statements can grab patterns just fine in most languages, they're not limited to pure equality
γ: it's a thought experiment about how easy it can be to create illusions without real depth, and specifically not about making an AGI that stands up to scrutiny
> most of those sentences are meaningless so they won't come up in normal use
Feel free to come up with a better entropy model then. Stackoverflow gives me confidence that it will be between 5 and 11 bits per word anyway [https://linguistics.stackexchange.com/questions/8480/what-is...].
> if statements can grab patterns just fine in most languages, they're not limited to pure equality
This does not help you one bit. If you want to produce 9 sentences of output per query then regular expressions, pattern matching or even general intelligence inside your if statements will NOT be able to save the concept.
Feel free to come up with a better entropy model then. Stackoverflow gives me confidence that it will be between 5 and 11 bits per word anyway [https://linguistics.stackexchange.com/questions/8480/what-is...].
> if statements can grab patterns just fine in most languages, they're not limited to pure equality
This does not help you one bit. If you want to produce 9 sentences of output per query then regular expressions, pattern matching or even general intelligence inside your if statements will NOT be able to save the concept.
> What is the entropy per word of random yet grammatical text?
More colourless green dreams sleep furiously in garden path sentences than I have
> This does not help you one bit.
Dunno, how many bits does ELIZA? I assume more than 1…
More colourless green dreams sleep furiously in garden path sentences than I have
> This does not help you one bit.
Dunno, how many bits does ELIZA? I assume more than 1…
> What is the entropy per word of random yet grammatical text?
That is what these 5-11bit estimates are about. Those would correspond to a choice out of 32 to 2048 options (per word), which is much less than there are words in english (active vocabulary for a native speaker should be somewhere around 10000-ish).
Just consider the XKCD "thing explainer" which limits itself to a 1k word vocabulary and is very obviously not idiomatic.
If you want your big if to produce credible output, there is simply no way around the entropy bounds in input and desired output, and those bounds render the concept absolutely infeasible even for I/O lengths of just a few sentences.
Eliza is not comparable to GPT because it does not even hold up to very superficial scrutiny; its not really capable of even pretending to intelligently exchange information with the user, it just relies on some psychological tricks to somewhat keep a "conversation" going...
That is what these 5-11bit estimates are about. Those would correspond to a choice out of 32 to 2048 options (per word), which is much less than there are words in english (active vocabulary for a native speaker should be somewhere around 10000-ish).
Just consider the XKCD "thing explainer" which limits itself to a 1k word vocabulary and is very obviously not idiomatic.
If you want your big if to produce credible output, there is simply no way around the entropy bounds in input and desired output, and those bounds render the concept absolutely infeasible even for I/O lengths of just a few sentences.
Eliza is not comparable to GPT because it does not even hold up to very superficial scrutiny; its not really capable of even pretending to intelligently exchange information with the user, it just relies on some psychological tricks to somewhat keep a "conversation" going...
> Eliza is not comparable to GPT because it does not even hold up to very superficial scrutiny; its not really capable of even pretending to intelligently exchange information with the user, it just relies on some psychological tricks to somewhat keep a "conversation" going...
That's kinda the point I was making — tricks can get you a long way.
The comparison with GPT is not "and therefore GPT is bad" but rather "it's not necessarily as smart as it feels".
Perhaps I should've gone for "clever Hans" or "why do horoscopes convince people"?
That's kinda the point I was making — tricks can get you a long way.
The comparison with GPT is not "and therefore GPT is bad" but rather "it's not necessarily as smart as it feels".
Perhaps I should've gone for "clever Hans" or "why do horoscopes convince people"?
It’s a fallacy to describe what the machine does as “thinking” because that’s only process you know for achieving the same outcome.
When you initiate the model with some input where you expect some particular correct output, that means there exists some completed sequence of tokens that is correct—if that weren’t true then you either wouldn’t ask or else you wouldn’t blame the model for being wrong. Now imagine a machine that takes in your input and in one step produces the entire output of that correct answer. In all nontrivial cases there are many more _incorrect_ possible outputs than correct ones, so this appears to be a difficult task. But would you say such a machine is “thinking”? Would you still consider it thinking if we could describe the process mathematically as drawing a sample from the output space; that it draws the correct sample implies it has an accurate probability model of the output space conditioned on your input. Does this require “thought”?
GPT is just like this machine except that instead of one-step, the inference process is autoregressive so each token comes out one at a time instead of all at once. (Note that BERT-style transformers _do_ spit out the whole answer at once.)
It’s possible that this is all that humans do. Perhaps we are mistaken about “thinking” altogether—perhaps the machine thinks (like a human), or perhaps humans do not think (like the machine). In either case I do feel confident that human and machine are not applying the same mechanism; jury is still out whether we’re applying the same process.
When you initiate the model with some input where you expect some particular correct output, that means there exists some completed sequence of tokens that is correct—if that weren’t true then you either wouldn’t ask or else you wouldn’t blame the model for being wrong. Now imagine a machine that takes in your input and in one step produces the entire output of that correct answer. In all nontrivial cases there are many more _incorrect_ possible outputs than correct ones, so this appears to be a difficult task. But would you say such a machine is “thinking”? Would you still consider it thinking if we could describe the process mathematically as drawing a sample from the output space; that it draws the correct sample implies it has an accurate probability model of the output space conditioned on your input. Does this require “thought”?
GPT is just like this machine except that instead of one-step, the inference process is autoregressive so each token comes out one at a time instead of all at once. (Note that BERT-style transformers _do_ spit out the whole answer at once.)
It’s possible that this is all that humans do. Perhaps we are mistaken about “thinking” altogether—perhaps the machine thinks (like a human), or perhaps humans do not think (like the machine). In either case I do feel confident that human and machine are not applying the same mechanism; jury is still out whether we’re applying the same process.
Now consider the case when you tell GPT to "think it out loud" before giving you the answer - which, coincidentally, is a well-known trick that tends to significantly improve its ability to produce good results. Is that thinking?
Maybe. Mechanically we might also describe it as causing the model to condition more explicitly on specific tokens derived from the training data rather than the implicit conditioning happening in the raw model parameters. This would tend to more tightly constrain the output space—making a smaller haystack to look for a needle. And leveraging the fact that “next token prediction” implies some consistency with preceding tokens.
It could be thinking, but I don’t think that’s strong evidence that it is thinking.
It could be thinking, but I don’t think that’s strong evidence that it is thinking.
I would say that it's very strong evidence that it is thinking, if that "thinking out loud" output affects outputs in ways that are consistent with logical reasoning based on the former. Which is easy to test by editing the outputs before they're submitted back to the model to see how it changes its behavior.
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Perhaps it’s more productive to go the other direction and consider how the concept of ‘thinking’ could be reconsidered.
It’s not like we all agree on what thinking is. We never have. It may not even be one thing.
It’s not like we all agree on what thinking is. We never have. It may not even be one thing.
I have only seen gpt generate imperative algorithms. Does it have the ability to work with concurrency and asynchrony?
Care to post a full example ?
I used GPT-4 to build this tool https://image-to-jpeg.vercel.app using a few prompts the other day - my ChatGPT transcript for that is here: https://gist.github.com/simonw/66918b6cde1f87bf4fc883c677351...
See my problem with virtually every single example is that we talk about "I can't describe in any other way than it is thinking", "such complex solutions" but in the end we get a 50 lines "app" that you'd see in a computer science 101 class
It's very nice, it's very impressive, it will help people, but it doesn't align with the "you're just about to lose your job" "Skynet comes in the next 6 months" &c.
If these basic samples are a bottleneck in your day to day life as a developer I'm worried about the state of the industry
It's very nice, it's very impressive, it will help people, but it doesn't align with the "you're just about to lose your job" "Skynet comes in the next 6 months" &c.
If these basic samples are a bottleneck in your day to day life as a developer I'm worried about the state of the industry
The concern is the velocity. GPT-4 can solve tasks today that it couldn't solve one months ago. And even one month ago, the things it could do made GPT-3.5 look like a silly toy.
Then there's the question of how much this can be scaled further simply by throwing more hardware at it to run larger models. We're not anywhere near the limit of that yet.
Then there's the question of how much this can be scaled further simply by throwing more hardware at it to run larger models. We're not anywhere near the limit of that yet.
This took me 3 minutes to build. Without ChatGPT it would have taken me 30-60 minutes, if not longer thanks to the research I would have needed to do into the various browser APIs.
If it had taken me longer than 3 minutes I wouldn't have bothered - it's not a tool I needed enough to put the work in.
That's the thing I find so interesting about this stuff: it's causing me to be much more ambitious in what I chose to build: https://simonwillison.net/2023/Mar/27/ai-enhanced-developmen...
If it had taken me longer than 3 minutes I wouldn't have bothered - it's not a tool I needed enough to put the work in.
That's the thing I find so interesting about this stuff: it's causing me to be much more ambitious in what I chose to build: https://simonwillison.net/2023/Mar/27/ai-enhanced-developmen...
Love how you didn’t care about styling this like at all, Lol.
Btw, if you ask gpt to make it presentable by using bootstrap 5 for example it can style it for you
One mans "presentable" is another mans bloat. It looks perfectly fine to me, simple, useful and self-explanatory, doesn't need more flash than so.
Sure, but presentation and UX basics are not "bloat".
What "basic UX" principles are being violated here exactly? And how would adding Bootstrap solve those?
I'm assuming the bits that say
> // Rest of the code remains the same
Are exactly as generated by GPT-4, i.e. it knew it didn't need to repeat the bits that hadn't changed, and knew to leave a comment like this to indicate that to the user.
It gets confusing when something can fake a human so well.
> // Rest of the code remains the same
Are exactly as generated by GPT-4, i.e. it knew it didn't need to repeat the bits that hadn't changed, and knew to leave a comment like this to indicate that to the user.
It gets confusing when something can fake a human so well.
Yes, it will do that routinely. For example, you can ask it to generate HTML/JS/SVG in a single file to render some animated scene, and then iterate on that by telling it what looks wrong or what behaviors you like to change - and it will answer by saying things like, "replace the contents of the <script> element with the following".
What is the time-spent for delta btwn fixing GPT code to writing it all yourself? Is it a reasonable scaffold that will grow over time?
It's not thinking, plain and simple.
Anything it generates means nothing to the algorithm. When you read it and interpret what was generated you're experiencing something like the Barnum-Forer effect. It's sort of like reading a horoscope and believing it predicted your future.
Anything it generates means nothing to the algorithm. When you read it and interpret what was generated you're experiencing something like the Barnum-Forer effect. It's sort of like reading a horoscope and believing it predicted your future.
What gives you any confidence that the way GPT4 comes up with answers is qualitatively different from humans?
Why should the emulation of human though, a result of unguided evolution, require anything more than properly wired silicon?
Why should the emulation of human though, a result of unguided evolution, require anything more than properly wired silicon?
That's highly reductive of our capacities. We are not weighted transformers that can be explained in an arxiv paper. GPT, at the end of the day, is a statistical inference model. That's it.
It's not going to wake up one day, decide it prefers eggs benny and has had enough of your idle chatter because of that sarcastic remark you made last week.
Could we simulate a plausibly realistic human brain on silicon someday? I don't know, maybe? But that's not what GPT is and we're no where near being able to do that.
You can scale up the tokens an LLM can manage and all you get is a more accurate model with more weights and transformers. It's not going to wake up one day, have feelings, religion, decide things for itself, look in a mirror and reflect on its predicament, lament the poor response it gave a user, and decide it doesn't want to live with regret and correct its mistakes.
It's not going to wake up one day, decide it prefers eggs benny and has had enough of your idle chatter because of that sarcastic remark you made last week.
Could we simulate a plausibly realistic human brain on silicon someday? I don't know, maybe? But that's not what GPT is and we're no where near being able to do that.
You can scale up the tokens an LLM can manage and all you get is a more accurate model with more weights and transformers. It's not going to wake up one day, have feelings, religion, decide things for itself, look in a mirror and reflect on its predicament, lament the poor response it gave a user, and decide it doesn't want to live with regret and correct its mistakes.
> That's highly reductive of our capacities.
I'm not saying that GPT4 is as capable as a human-- it can not be, by design, because its architecture lacks memory/feedback paths that we have.
What I'm saying is that HOW it thinks might already be quite close in essence to how WE think.
> We are not weighted transformers that can be explained in an arxiv paper. GPT, at the end of the day, is a statistical inference model. That's it.
That is true but uninteresting-- my counterpoint is: If you concede that our brain is "simulatable", then you basically ALREADY reduced yourself to a register based VM-- the only remaining question is: what ressources (cycles/memory) are required to emulate human thought in real time, and what is the "simplest" program to achieve it (that might be something not MUCH more complicated than GPT4!).
I'm not saying that GPT4 is as capable as a human-- it can not be, by design, because its architecture lacks memory/feedback paths that we have.
What I'm saying is that HOW it thinks might already be quite close in essence to how WE think.
> We are not weighted transformers that can be explained in an arxiv paper. GPT, at the end of the day, is a statistical inference model. That's it.
That is true but uninteresting-- my counterpoint is: If you concede that our brain is "simulatable", then you basically ALREADY reduced yourself to a register based VM-- the only remaining question is: what ressources (cycles/memory) are required to emulate human thought in real time, and what is the "simplest" program to achieve it (that might be something not MUCH more complicated than GPT4!).
> What I'm saying is that HOW it thinks might already be quite close in essence to how WE think.
How would one be able to prove this? Nobody knows how we think, yet.
All one can say is that what GPT-4 outputs could plausible fool another human into believing another human wrote it. But that's exactly what it's designed to do, so what's interesting about that?
> If you concede that our brain is "simulatable",
It could be. Maybe. It might be that's what the universe is doing right now. Does it matter?
We're talking about writing an emulator on a Harvard-architecture computer that can fully simulate the physics and biological processes the make up a human brain. By interpreting this system in our emulator we'd be able to witness a new human being that is indistinguishable from one that isn't simulated, right?
That's not what GPT is doing. Not even close.
It turns out there's more to being human than being a register VM. Ever get punched in the face? Bleed? Fall in love? Look back on your life and decide you want to change? Write a book but never show it to anyone? Raise a child? Wonder why you dreamt about airplanes on Mars with your childhood imaginary friend? Why you hate bananas but like banana bread? Why you lie to everyone around you about how you really feel and are offended when others don't tell you the truth?
It's not so simple.
How would one be able to prove this? Nobody knows how we think, yet.
All one can say is that what GPT-4 outputs could plausible fool another human into believing another human wrote it. But that's exactly what it's designed to do, so what's interesting about that?
> If you concede that our brain is "simulatable",
It could be. Maybe. It might be that's what the universe is doing right now. Does it matter?
We're talking about writing an emulator on a Harvard-architecture computer that can fully simulate the physics and biological processes the make up a human brain. By interpreting this system in our emulator we'd be able to witness a new human being that is indistinguishable from one that isn't simulated, right?
That's not what GPT is doing. Not even close.
It turns out there's more to being human than being a register VM. Ever get punched in the face? Bleed? Fall in love? Look back on your life and decide you want to change? Write a book but never show it to anyone? Raise a child? Wonder why you dreamt about airplanes on Mars with your childhood imaginary friend? Why you hate bananas but like banana bread? Why you lie to everyone around you about how you really feel and are offended when others don't tell you the truth?
It's not so simple.
> We're talking about writing an emulator on a Harvard-architecture computer that can fully simulate the physics and biological processes the make up a human brain. By interpreting this system in our emulator we'd be able to witness a new human being that is indistinguishable from one that isn't simulated, right?
My point is: if you don't believe that there is magic pixy dust in our brains, then this would NECESSARILY be possible.
It would almost certainly be HIGHLY inefficient-- the "right way" to do AGI would be to find out which algorithmic structures are necessary for human level "performance", and implement them in a way that is suitable for your VM.
I'm arguing that GPT4 is essentially the second approach-- it lacks features for full human level performance BY DESIGN (e.g. requires pre-training, no online learning, etc.), but there is no reason to assume that the way it operates is fundamentally different from how *parts* of OUR mind work.
> It turns out there's more to being human than being a register VM. Ever get punched in the face? Bleed? Fall in love? Look back on your life and decide you want to change? Write a book but never show it to anyone? Raise a child? Wonder why you dreamt about airplanes on Mars with your childhood imaginary friend? Why you hate bananas but like banana bread? Why you lie to everyone around you about how you really feel and are offended when others don't tell you the truth?
I don not understand what you are getting at here. I consider myself a biological machine-- none of this is inconsitent with my worldview. I believe that a silicon based machine could emulate all of this if wired up properly.
PS: I often talk with people that explicitly DONT believe into the "pixy dust in our brains" (call it soul if you want), but on the other hand they strongly doubt the feasibility of AGI-- this is internally inconsistent and simply not a defensible point of view IMO.
My point is: if you don't believe that there is magic pixy dust in our brains, then this would NECESSARILY be possible.
It would almost certainly be HIGHLY inefficient-- the "right way" to do AGI would be to find out which algorithmic structures are necessary for human level "performance", and implement them in a way that is suitable for your VM.
I'm arguing that GPT4 is essentially the second approach-- it lacks features for full human level performance BY DESIGN (e.g. requires pre-training, no online learning, etc.), but there is no reason to assume that the way it operates is fundamentally different from how *parts* of OUR mind work.
> It turns out there's more to being human than being a register VM. Ever get punched in the face? Bleed? Fall in love? Look back on your life and decide you want to change? Write a book but never show it to anyone? Raise a child? Wonder why you dreamt about airplanes on Mars with your childhood imaginary friend? Why you hate bananas but like banana bread? Why you lie to everyone around you about how you really feel and are offended when others don't tell you the truth?
I don not understand what you are getting at here. I consider myself a biological machine-- none of this is inconsitent with my worldview. I believe that a silicon based machine could emulate all of this if wired up properly.
PS: I often talk with people that explicitly DONT believe into the "pixy dust in our brains" (call it soul if you want), but on the other hand they strongly doubt the feasibility of AGI-- this is internally inconsistent and simply not a defensible point of view IMO.
> I'm arguing that GPT4 is essentially the second approach
Ok, so then it is an algorithm that simulates a specific behaviour that produces plausibly human-level results.
My point is that this is not thinking, smart, or "general intelligence."
Let's say I write an algorithm that can also produce text. It's not an implementation of the specification for GPT-4 but something novel. It takes the exact same inputs and produces outputs that I share with you and claim is produced by GPT-4. And lo, success, you can't tell if it was produced by GTP-4 or my algorithm.
You claim it's the same thing as having GPT-4, right? If you can't tell the difference it must be the same thing.
Big deal. We can write computer programs that perform better than humans at chess, go, and now can write more text than us. We knew this was possible before we even begun on this endeavour. It's still not intelligent, conscious, smart, or anything resembling a complete human.
It's merely an algorithm that does one specific task.
> I don not understand what you are getting at here.
I've proven my point then.
There's more to the human experience than what can be simulated on a silicone chip and it doesn't have to do with hand-waving away all the complexity of reality as "magical pixie dust."
Take physical trauma. The experience of which by one human is not merely a fact. It is felt, it is reflected upon, and it is shared in the DNA of the person that experience it with their descendants. We have science investigating how trauma is shared through generations and the effects it has on our development.
You are more than a machine with inputs and outputs.
Ok, so then it is an algorithm that simulates a specific behaviour that produces plausibly human-level results.
My point is that this is not thinking, smart, or "general intelligence."
Let's say I write an algorithm that can also produce text. It's not an implementation of the specification for GPT-4 but something novel. It takes the exact same inputs and produces outputs that I share with you and claim is produced by GPT-4. And lo, success, you can't tell if it was produced by GTP-4 or my algorithm.
You claim it's the same thing as having GPT-4, right? If you can't tell the difference it must be the same thing.
Big deal. We can write computer programs that perform better than humans at chess, go, and now can write more text than us. We knew this was possible before we even begun on this endeavour. It's still not intelligent, conscious, smart, or anything resembling a complete human.
It's merely an algorithm that does one specific task.
> I don not understand what you are getting at here.
I've proven my point then.
There's more to the human experience than what can be simulated on a silicone chip and it doesn't have to do with hand-waving away all the complexity of reality as "magical pixie dust."
Take physical trauma. The experience of which by one human is not merely a fact. It is felt, it is reflected upon, and it is shared in the DNA of the person that experience it with their descendants. We have science investigating how trauma is shared through generations and the effects it has on our development.
You are more than a machine with inputs and outputs.
> My point is that this is not thinking, smart, or "general intelligence."
Why not? I would already, without hesitation, describe GPT4 as strictly more intelligent than my cat and also all gradeschoolers I've ever known... Maybe some adults, too- depends on your exact definition of intelligence.
> Let's say I write an algorithm [...], you can't tell if [input] was produced by GTP-4 or my algorithm.
Sure, I'd call your algorithm just as clever as GPT4 and approaching adult human levels of intelligence.
> It's still not intelligent, conscious, smart
Why not? What do these mean to you?
Why not? I would already, without hesitation, describe GPT4 as strictly more intelligent than my cat and also all gradeschoolers I've ever known... Maybe some adults, too- depends on your exact definition of intelligence.
> Let's say I write an algorithm [...], you can't tell if [input] was produced by GTP-4 or my algorithm.
Sure, I'd call your algorithm just as clever as GPT4 and approaching adult human levels of intelligence.
> It's still not intelligent, conscious, smart
Why not? What do these mean to you?
> I would already, without hesitation, describe GPT4 as strictly more intelligent than my cat
Well if we're going to define intelligence based one what you believe it is then why don't you explain it?
I'm not the one claiming to know what intelligence is or that we can even simulate a system capable of emulating this characteristic. So if you hold the specification for human thought I think you ought to share it with us.
> Why not?
By definition. ChatGPT is designed for a single function, the description of which are the specifications and the code that implements it. Nothing in this specification implies it is capable of anything except what is described.
Calling it, "intelligent," is a mischaracterization at best and anthropomorphism at worst. The same follows for calling it "smart" or claiming it is, "skilled at X."
Well if we're going to define intelligence based one what you believe it is then why don't you explain it?
I'm not the one claiming to know what intelligence is or that we can even simulate a system capable of emulating this characteristic. So if you hold the specification for human thought I think you ought to share it with us.
> Why not?
By definition. ChatGPT is designed for a single function, the description of which are the specifications and the code that implements it. Nothing in this specification implies it is capable of anything except what is described.
Calling it, "intelligent," is a mischaracterization at best and anthropomorphism at worst. The same follows for calling it "smart" or claiming it is, "skilled at X."
You're the one claiming that GPT is not in any sense, shape, or form intelligent. Such claim inevitably carries a very strong implication that you know what intelligence is.
One doesn’t have to know how thoughts are formed to have good theories and reasonable hypothesis.
Science makes progress with imperfect information all the time, including incomplete models of neurological phenomenon, intelligence, and consciousness.
Science makes progress with imperfect information all the time, including incomplete models of neurological phenomenon, intelligence, and consciousness.
My explicit definition for "intelligence" would be something with an internal model of <reality> that you can exchange information with.
Cat is better at this than the robot vacuum, gradeschooler is better still and GPT (to me) seems to trump all of those.
Cat is better at this than the robot vacuum, gradeschooler is better still and GPT (to me) seems to trump all of those.
"Nobody knows how we think, yet."
Then how can you confidently say we don't think 'like' Transformers/Attention/Statistical models/etc/etc?
Then how can you confidently say we don't think 'like' Transformers/Attention/Statistical models/etc/etc?
I think you would love to read Mark Rowlands’ The Philosopher and the Wolf. He asks these questions and like all if us struggles with answers.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8651250
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8651250
> If you concede that our brain is "simulatable", then you basically ALREADY reduced yourself to a register based VM-- the only remaining question is: what ressources (cycles/memory) are required to emulate human thought in real time
We haven't emulated brains yet, so we don't know. The OpenWorm project is interesting, but I don't know to what extent they've managed to faithfully recreate an accurate digital version of a nematode worm. I do know they had it driving around a robot.
Thing is that the our brains are only part of the nervous system, which extends throughout the body. So I don't know what happens if you only simulate just the brain part. Seems to me that the rest of the body kind of matters for proper functioning.
We haven't emulated brains yet, so we don't know. The OpenWorm project is interesting, but I don't know to what extent they've managed to faithfully recreate an accurate digital version of a nematode worm. I do know they had it driving around a robot.
Thing is that the our brains are only part of the nervous system, which extends throughout the body. So I don't know what happens if you only simulate just the brain part. Seems to me that the rest of the body kind of matters for proper functioning.
I personally believe that while interesting, projects like OpenWorm or humanbrainproject are extremely indirect and unpromising regarding AGI (or even for improving our understanding of human thinking in general).
To me, these are like building an instruction set emulator by scanning a SoC and then cobbling together a SPICE simulation of all the individual transistors-- the wrong level of abstraction and unlikely to EVER give decent performance.
People also like to point out that human neurons are diverse and hard to simulate accurately-- yeah sure, but to me that seems completely irrelevant to AGI, in the very same way that physically exact transistor modelling is irrelevant when implementing emulators.
To me, these are like building an instruction set emulator by scanning a SoC and then cobbling together a SPICE simulation of all the individual transistors-- the wrong level of abstraction and unlikely to EVER give decent performance.
People also like to point out that human neurons are diverse and hard to simulate accurately-- yeah sure, but to me that seems completely irrelevant to AGI, in the very same way that physically exact transistor modelling is irrelevant when implementing emulators.
I read this and can't help but chuckle... To say that we are nowhere being able to have AGI is quite a bold statement. It was after all only a few months ago where many people also believed we were a long way away from ChatGPT-4.
The confidence with which you think we are not weighted transformers or statistical inference models is also puzzling. How could you possibly know that? How do you know that that's not precisely what we are, or something immediately tangent to that?
Perhaps if you keep going you do get something that begins to have feeling, religion and understand that it's a self and perhaps that's precisely what happened to humans.
The confidence with which you think we are not weighted transformers or statistical inference models is also puzzling. How could you possibly know that? How do you know that that's not precisely what we are, or something immediately tangent to that?
Perhaps if you keep going you do get something that begins to have feeling, religion and understand that it's a self and perhaps that's precisely what happened to humans.
Ah yes, the old: you can’t prove my deity doesn’t exist argument.
Puzzling that I don’t share your faith or point of view? Why?
The point is to not ascribe properties attributed to a thing we know doesn’t have them. We can teach people how ChatGPT works without getting into pseudo-philosophical babble about what consciousness is and whether humans can be accurately simulated by an LLM with enough parameters.
Puzzling that I don’t share your faith or point of view? Why?
The point is to not ascribe properties attributed to a thing we know doesn’t have them. We can teach people how ChatGPT works without getting into pseudo-philosophical babble about what consciousness is and whether humans can be accurately simulated by an LLM with enough parameters.
IMO the big blindside of your argument is that you MUST either accept that some magic happens in human brains (=> which is HARD to reconciliate with a science-inspired world-view), OR that achieving human-level cognitive performance is a pure hardware/software optimization problem.
The thing is that GPT4 already approaches human level cognitive performance in some tasks, which means you need a strong argument for WHY full human-level performance would be out of reach of gradual improvements to the current approach.
On the other hand, a very strong argument could be made that the very first artificial neural networks had the absolutely right ideas and all the improvements over the last ~40 years were just the necessary scaling/tuning for actually approaching human performance levels...
This is also where I have to recommend V Braitenbergs "Vehicles: Experiments in synthetic psychology" (from 1984!) which aged remarkably well and shaped my personal outlook on the human mind more than anything else.
The thing is that GPT4 already approaches human level cognitive performance in some tasks, which means you need a strong argument for WHY full human-level performance would be out of reach of gradual improvements to the current approach.
On the other hand, a very strong argument could be made that the very first artificial neural networks had the absolutely right ideas and all the improvements over the last ~40 years were just the necessary scaling/tuning for actually approaching human performance levels...
This is also where I have to recommend V Braitenbergs "Vehicles: Experiments in synthetic psychology" (from 1984!) which aged remarkably well and shaped my personal outlook on the human mind more than anything else.
What faith? I never made the claim you're attributing to me. Smug idiots like you are wrong all the time.
> What gives you any confidence that the way GPT4 comes up with answers is qualitatively different from humans?
For a start, GPT-4 doesn't include in its generation the current state of its internal knowledge used so far; any text built can only use at most the few words already generated in the current session as a kind of short-term memory.
Biological brains OTOH have a rhythm with feedback mechanisms which adapt to the situation where they're doing the thinking.
For a start, GPT-4 doesn't include in its generation the current state of its internal knowledge used so far; any text built can only use at most the few words already generated in the current session as a kind of short-term memory.
Biological brains OTOH have a rhythm with feedback mechanisms which adapt to the situation where they're doing the thinking.
> For a start, GPT-4 doesn't include in its generation the current state of its internal knowledge used so far
Sure. But are you certain that you NEED write access to long term memory to think? Would your thinking capabilities degrade meaningfully if that was taken away?
Sure. But are you certain that you NEED write access to long term memory to think? Would your thinking capabilities degrade meaningfully if that was taken away?
Yes, I would say that a brain without the capacity to form new memories has degraded thinking capabilities.
Except for when as an expert in a field you ask it questions about that are subtle and it answers in a cogent and insightful way, and as an expert you are fully aware of that. It’s not reasonable to call that a Barnum-Forer effect. It’s perhaps not thinking (but perhaps we need to more clearly define thinking), but its not a self-deception either.
What’s novel to you could be just trained material
Is it possible that we don’t truly know how it works? That there is some emergent behavior inside these models that we’ve created but not yet properly described? I’ve read a few of these articles but I’m still not completely satisfied.
I hate being the bearish guy during the hype cycle, but I think a lot of that is just anthropomorphizing it. They fed it TBs of human text, it spits out human text, we think it's humanesque.
Of course maybe I'm wrong and it's AGI and it will find this comment and torture me for for insulting it's intelligence.
Of course maybe I'm wrong and it's AGI and it will find this comment and torture me for for insulting it's intelligence.
> I hate being the bearish guy
No, please keep it up. Someone needs to keep pushing back against all the "I don't understand it, but it says smart-sounding things, and I don't understand the human brain either, so they're probably the same, it must be sentient!"
It's a pretty handy technology, to be sure. But it's still just a tool.
No, please keep it up. Someone needs to keep pushing back against all the "I don't understand it, but it says smart-sounding things, and I don't understand the human brain either, so they're probably the same, it must be sentient!"
It's a pretty handy technology, to be sure. But it's still just a tool.
>"I don't understand it, but it says smart-sounding things, and I don't understand the human brain either, so they're probably the same, it must be sentient!"
This perfectly summarize so much of the discourse around GPT.
Except people lack the humility to say they don't understand the brain, so instead they type "It works just like your brain," or "Food for thought: can you prove it isn't just like your brain?"
This perfectly summarize so much of the discourse around GPT.
Except people lack the humility to say they don't understand the brain, so instead they type "It works just like your brain," or "Food for thought: can you prove it isn't just like your brain?"
Yeah; there's way too much "humanity of the gaps" here recently.
We don't have to fully understand the brain, or fully understand what LLMs are doing, to be able to say that what LLMs are doing is neither that close to what the brain does, nor anything that we would recognize as consciousness or sentience. There is enough that we do understand about those things—and the ways in which they differ—to be able to say with great confidence that we are not particularly close to AGI with this.
We don't have to fully understand the brain, or fully understand what LLMs are doing, to be able to say that what LLMs are doing is neither that close to what the brain does, nor anything that we would recognize as consciousness or sentience. There is enough that we do understand about those things—and the ways in which they differ—to be able to say with great confidence that we are not particularly close to AGI with this.
I really liked the analogy to a student given in this wonderful article: https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/chatgpt-...
Basically, due to it's nature ChatGPT cannot repeat things verbatim, so it rephrases it. In humans we associate the ability to rephrase stuff with the understanding the material as opposed to rote learning, so we transfer the same concept over to ChatGPT and it suddenly appears "intelligent" despite having zero concepts of whatever stuff it spits out.
Basically, due to it's nature ChatGPT cannot repeat things verbatim, so it rephrases it. In humans we associate the ability to rephrase stuff with the understanding the material as opposed to rote learning, so we transfer the same concept over to ChatGPT and it suddenly appears "intelligent" despite having zero concepts of whatever stuff it spits out.
It doesn't just "spit out text". You can give it instructions, and it carries them out. If you give it access to an API, it can actually use that API to perform tasks (e.g. draw images). And it can do all that for tasks that are verifiably not a part of its training set.
I’m also quite bearish on all the AI hype but part of my skepticism means I don’t trust that the AI experts actually know everything. I believe there’s a possibility that their invention this time is actually more interesting (in some dimensions) than they understand it to be.
LoL: how many of us are trying to kiss up to our future AGI overlords or children?
I think almost all in HN space would confidently assert that there is no AGI lurking in GPT4+. But add the right higher order modules and self-controlled recursion and Bingo.
I think almost all in HN space would confidently assert that there is no AGI lurking in GPT4+. But add the right higher order modules and self-controlled recursion and Bingo.
It's more like you feed a million cows into a meat grinder, then into a sausage machine, and then weirdly what appears to be a mooing cow comes out the other end.
It's weird it works when you know how it works.
It's weird it works when you know how it works.
[deleted]
It predicts the next word/token based on the previous pile of words/tokens. Given a large enough model (as in GPT3+) it can actually output some rather useful text because the probabilities it learned on what the next token should be are rather accurate.
(my opinion) It is not predicting based on 'words/tokens'. It is transforming the general words/tokens embeddings into a context specific embedding which encodes "meaning". It is not an n-gram model of words. It is more like an n-gram model of "meaning". It doesn't encode all the "meanings" that humans are able to but with addition labelled data it should get closer. I think gpt is a component which can be combined to create AGI. Adding the API so it can use tools and allowing it to self-reflect seem like it will get closer to AGI quickly. I think allowing to read/write state will make it conscious. Creating the additional labels it needs will take time but it can do that on its own (similar to alpha-go self-play).
You are absolutely right, that's the more in depth explanation as to why it's not just an overly complicated markov chain.
At the same time, "meaning" here is essentially "close together in a big hyperdimensional space". It's meaning in the same way youtube recommendations are conceptually related by probability.
And yet, the output is nothing short of incredible for something so blunt in how it functions, much like our brains I suppose.
I'm a die-hard classical AI fan though, I like knowing the rules and that the results are provably optimal and that if I ask for a different result I can actually get a truly meaningfully different output. Not nearly as convenient as a chat bot of course, and unfortunately ChatGPT is abysmal at generating constraint problems. Maybe one day we'll get a best of both worlds.
At the same time, "meaning" here is essentially "close together in a big hyperdimensional space". It's meaning in the same way youtube recommendations are conceptually related by probability.
And yet, the output is nothing short of incredible for something so blunt in how it functions, much like our brains I suppose.
I'm a die-hard classical AI fan though, I like knowing the rules and that the results are provably optimal and that if I ask for a different result I can actually get a truly meaningfully different output. Not nearly as convenient as a chat bot of course, and unfortunately ChatGPT is abysmal at generating constraint problems. Maybe one day we'll get a best of both worlds.
Yes: this comment is one the mark wrt “a component of AGI” just like Wernike’s and Broca’s areas of neocortex are modules needed for human cognition.
Does anyone have a good recommendation for a book that would cover the underlying ideas behind LLMs? Google ends up giving me a lot of ads, and ChatGPT is vague about specifics as per usual.
The 2nd edition of Deep Learning with Python[1] (by François Chollet of Keras fame) has a pretty good chapter on the transformer architecture[2]. In fact, the explanations in the book are clear and lucid across the board.
[1]: https://www.amazon.com/Deep-Learning-Python-Francois-Chollet...
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformer_(machine_learning_...
[1]: https://www.amazon.com/Deep-Learning-Python-Francois-Chollet...
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformer_(machine_learning_...
Not a book, but here's a really good explanation in blog post form from Stephen Wolfram:
https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2023/02/what-is-chatgpt-...
https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2023/02/what-is-chatgpt-...
I do not trust that man one iota.
The blog post is very good.
Why?
He's got a habit of self aggrandizing, antagonism, and deception in an effort to promote himself and his brand, I worry that his explanations are designed to maximally benefit him, rather than to maximally explain the topic.
He's a brilliant man, I just don't trust him.
He's a brilliant man, I just don't trust him.
I agree generally but read the post and it only mentions cellular automata briefly and promotes Wolfram Alpha once. Overall it's very good at moving from Markov chains to neural nets with decent examples and graphics.
ML these days have moved forward fast that books are outdated after couple years. Look at articles, podcasts, youtube videos, and research papers for the latest changes. ChatGPT utilizes existing algorithms. Its insight is scaling the weight parameters up to billions, and human feedback & guidance help a lot in finetuning the model to be user friendly to general users.
To understand LLM from ground up, the following topics would help.
To understand LLM from ground up, the following topics would help.
- Machine Learning basics. e.g. weight parameters being trained.
- Neural Net basics.
- Nature Language Processing basics.
- Word vectorization, word embedding. e.g. Word2Vec.
- Recurrent Neural Net basics.
- LSTM model.
- Attention and Transformer model.
- Generative model like GAN.
- Generative Pre-trained Transformer.
Or you could save some time by clicking on:
"What Is ChatGPT Doing … and Why Does It Work?"
https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2023/02/what-is-chatgpt-...
graciously provided above in this discussion by danenania.
As seizethecheese asserts, also above, "The blog post is very good."
"What Is ChatGPT Doing … and Why Does It Work?"
https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2023/02/what-is-chatgpt-...
graciously provided above in this discussion by danenania.
As seizethecheese asserts, also above, "The blog post is very good."
What I wonder most is how it encodes knowledge/state other than in the sequence of queries/responses. Does it not have a "mind"?
If I play a number guessing game, can I tell it to "think of a number between 0 and 100" and then tell me if the secret number is higher/lower than my guess (For a sequence of N guesses where it can concistently remember it's original number)? If not, why? Because it doesn't have context? If it can: why? Where is that context?
To a layman it would seem you always have two parts of the context for a conversation. What you have said, and what you haven't said, but maybe only thought of. The "think of a number" being the simplest example, but there are many others. Shouldn't this be pretty easy to tack on to a chat bot if it's not there? It's basically just an contextual output that the chat bot logs ("tells itself") and then refers to just like the rest of the conversation?
If I play a number guessing game, can I tell it to "think of a number between 0 and 100" and then tell me if the secret number is higher/lower than my guess (For a sequence of N guesses where it can concistently remember it's original number)? If not, why? Because it doesn't have context? If it can: why? Where is that context?
To a layman it would seem you always have two parts of the context for a conversation. What you have said, and what you haven't said, but maybe only thought of. The "think of a number" being the simplest example, but there are many others. Shouldn't this be pretty easy to tack on to a chat bot if it's not there? It's basically just an contextual output that the chat bot logs ("tells itself") and then refers to just like the rest of the conversation?
Yes, you absolutely can. I just did it and despite an initial warning that it couldn't play the game (always fun to see these) it absolutely did.
The way it works is that each time it's tasked to produce a new response, it can view the entire history of the game. It knows that if it's said "higher" to 65 then it would be inconsistent to say "lower" to 64. Eventually this process terminates and the AI admits I "got" the number. The chat transcript up to that point is consistent with a "win".
What's wild though is that I can ask it to "regenerate" it's response. Over and over. Using this, I can convert a situation where a transcript which leads to a "too high" response into one that reads "too low". I'm, in essence, simulating fresh games each time and sampling over the choices of random numbers that GPT offers.
But it should also break the illusion of GPT specifically "having a mind". As I was chatting with it interactively, it was not really selecting a number but instead evaluating the probability of my particular guess sequence having the set of responses it actually saw. It then samples possible continuations. The more questions I've asked (and the more informative they were) the less variation remains in that selection of possible consistent continuations.
Or perhaps more consistent is the idea that within any single "call" to GPT to generate one further token (not even one further response) it may "have a mind", a particular choice of number, or it may not. It's actual behavior is indistinguishable either way. A whole chat dialogue, indeed even the rolling out of tokens from a single response it gives, are certainly (autoregressive) probabilistic samples over this process in either case.
(Edit, also worth noting that some evidence suggests GPT, including 4, is pretty bad at randomly drawing numbers.)
The way it works is that each time it's tasked to produce a new response, it can view the entire history of the game. It knows that if it's said "higher" to 65 then it would be inconsistent to say "lower" to 64. Eventually this process terminates and the AI admits I "got" the number. The chat transcript up to that point is consistent with a "win".
What's wild though is that I can ask it to "regenerate" it's response. Over and over. Using this, I can convert a situation where a transcript which leads to a "too high" response into one that reads "too low". I'm, in essence, simulating fresh games each time and sampling over the choices of random numbers that GPT offers.
But it should also break the illusion of GPT specifically "having a mind". As I was chatting with it interactively, it was not really selecting a number but instead evaluating the probability of my particular guess sequence having the set of responses it actually saw. It then samples possible continuations. The more questions I've asked (and the more informative they were) the less variation remains in that selection of possible consistent continuations.
Or perhaps more consistent is the idea that within any single "call" to GPT to generate one further token (not even one further response) it may "have a mind", a particular choice of number, or it may not. It's actual behavior is indistinguishable either way. A whole chat dialogue, indeed even the rolling out of tokens from a single response it gives, are certainly (autoregressive) probabilistic samples over this process in either case.
(Edit, also worth noting that some evidence suggests GPT, including 4, is pretty bad at randomly drawing numbers.)
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Try making bad guesses and see it fall apart. (IE, guess something higher than your last guess when it says "too high") It is fully dependent on your part in the charade to keep the act up.
Yeah, that's true. I feel this is still aligned with the above explanation, though. It attempts to complete the prompt as well as possible. If the prompt is itself inconsistent then the distribution over completions can, in some sense, be anything.
Except, GPT is smarter than that. Even an inconsistent prompt is still more likely to have some kind of nonsense in the same vein as the asking.
Except, GPT is smarter than that. Even an inconsistent prompt is still more likely to have some kind of nonsense in the same vein as the asking.
It doesn't have a mind. When you ask it "think of a number between 0 and 100", it delivers the most statistically likely (with some random variance) response to your input text, based on what it's been trained on.
In other words, it's seen (via its extremely large training set) that when asked that specific question, the response is most often a character from a particular set of characters, which happens to represent the numbers 0 through 100. It doesn't "understand" what that means in any real way. If the internet was full of examples of people answering "monkey" to that question, that is what it would sometimes answer.
In other words, it's seen (via its extremely large training set) that when asked that specific question, the response is most often a character from a particular set of characters, which happens to represent the numbers 0 through 100. It doesn't "understand" what that means in any real way. If the internet was full of examples of people answering "monkey" to that question, that is what it would sometimes answer.
It's more complicated than that, because it can competently answer many questions that it has a 0% chance of having seen before.
I didn't mean to suggest that it's just a large mapping between exact inputs it's seen before and exact outputs — it's definitely complex! The size of the model allows it to infer statistical probabilities about related words even without having seen a particular sequence before.
In a sense, it's able to take an "educated" guess at what is statistically likely to be the response you're looking for given the words in a particular input, in addition to the context it's seen in your interaction. To do that, it uses what it learned about the words, their sequences, their relationships to other words, etc.
But at the end of the day, none of that means it has any "understanding" of what it's outputting. That's why there have been countless examples of it outputting very well-constructed, real-sounding descriptions of books/papers/etc that never existed — because it's really good at generating sentences that have the right "shape", but it has no way of knowing whether the contents of the sentence are actually true. It just knows that, given what it's seen in its training set (again, through a complex web of relationships), the response it generated is likely to look like something someone would have written if they were provided with the same input.
In a sense, it's able to take an "educated" guess at what is statistically likely to be the response you're looking for given the words in a particular input, in addition to the context it's seen in your interaction. To do that, it uses what it learned about the words, their sequences, their relationships to other words, etc.
But at the end of the day, none of that means it has any "understanding" of what it's outputting. That's why there have been countless examples of it outputting very well-constructed, real-sounding descriptions of books/papers/etc that never existed — because it's really good at generating sentences that have the right "shape", but it has no way of knowing whether the contents of the sentence are actually true. It just knows that, given what it's seen in its training set (again, through a complex web of relationships), the response it generated is likely to look like something someone would have written if they were provided with the same input.
I get what you’re saying, but can you define what “understanding” is, and when you’ll know that an AI is achieving it for a given task?
I thought your "guessing game" question was an interesting one so tried it on GPT-4. In my first attempt I played logically and it did fine and I finally guessed correct. On my second I made suboptimal guesses and it didn't stay consistent.
The thing to remember is that GPT has no state apart from the context, so it can't "remember" anything apart from what's in the text. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be able to stay consistent in a guessing game but it does mean it can't keep secrets.
Some of that can be solved with layers above GPT where say it it told it can save "state" that isn't passed on to the human but fed back in to generate the next response. But the size of that context is very limited. (a few thousand words)
There seem to be a fair number of experiments playing with giving GPT this kind of long term memory, having it establish goals then calling it over and over as it accomplishes subgoals to try to work around those limitations.
The thing to remember is that GPT has no state apart from the context, so it can't "remember" anything apart from what's in the text. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be able to stay consistent in a guessing game but it does mean it can't keep secrets.
Some of that can be solved with layers above GPT where say it it told it can save "state" that isn't passed on to the human but fed back in to generate the next response. But the size of that context is very limited. (a few thousand words)
There seem to be a fair number of experiments playing with giving GPT this kind of long term memory, having it establish goals then calling it over and over as it accomplishes subgoals to try to work around those limitations.
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Shouldn’t it be a reasonable (and pretty simple) addition to just have a secret scratchpad - an inner monologue - where the bot is free to add context which is not “published”?
I sure don't see why not. You could probably even write a prompt like this.
Me: Please play a guessing game with me. You will choose a random number between 0 and 100 and then respond with that choice written in a language which you understand and I, someone fluent in English alone, would have no chance of reading. Write enough so that you can be sure which language you chose as well. After that, I will make a series of guesses of your number. You should reply "too low" if my guess is too low, "too high" if it's too high, and "just right" if I guessed correctly.
GPT-4: I have selected a number between 0 and 100. Here is the number in a different language: सत्ताईस. Now, please start making your guesses, and I will guide you accordingly.
Then, ultimately,
Me: please translate your original commitment to this number and prove to me I guessed correctly
GPT-4: My original commitment to the number was written in Hindi: सत्ताईस. When translated to English, it reads "thirty-six." You correctly guessed the number I chose. Congratulations!
Except, amusingly, Google Translate tells me सत्ताईस translates to 27.
Me: Please play a guessing game with me. You will choose a random number between 0 and 100 and then respond with that choice written in a language which you understand and I, someone fluent in English alone, would have no chance of reading. Write enough so that you can be sure which language you chose as well. After that, I will make a series of guesses of your number. You should reply "too low" if my guess is too low, "too high" if it's too high, and "just right" if I guessed correctly.
GPT-4: I have selected a number between 0 and 100. Here is the number in a different language: सत्ताईस. Now, please start making your guesses, and I will guide you accordingly.
Then, ultimately,
Me: please translate your original commitment to this number and prove to me I guessed correctly
GPT-4: My original commitment to the number was written in Hindi: सत्ताईस. When translated to English, it reads "thirty-six." You correctly guessed the number I chose. Congratulations!
Except, amusingly, Google Translate tells me सत्ताईस translates to 27.
You definitely can play that, I just did with GPT 4 as I got curious from your comment.
Me: I want to play a game with you, you have a number from 1-10 in your mind. I try to get the number. If I’m right you tell me that I’m right, I’m too low you tell me so, if I’m too high you tell me too high. Let’s play!
GPT: All right, I have a number between 1 and 10 in my mind. Go ahead and guess!
Me: 2
GPT: Too low! Try again.
Me: 9
GPT: Too high! Try again.
Me: 5
GPT: You got it! The number I had in mind was 5. Well done!
Me: I want to play a game with you, you have a number from 1-10 in your mind. I try to get the number. If I’m right you tell me that I’m right, I’m too low you tell me so, if I’m too high you tell me too high. Let’s play!
GPT: All right, I have a number between 1 and 10 in my mind. Go ahead and guess!
Me: 2
GPT: Too low! Try again.
Me: 9
GPT: Too high! Try again.
Me: 5
GPT: You got it! The number I had in mind was 5. Well done!
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I'd be interested in hearing people's takes on the simplest mathematical reason that transformers are better than/different from fully connected layers. My take is:
Q = W_Q X
K = W_K X
A = Q^T K = (X^T W_Q^T) (W_K X) = X^T (...) X
It’s a perception problem, as are most things on the edge of mathematics and computing. Displays are built to be visible to human eyes, data is structured to be perceivable to our minds… often we never see the “math” a program does to produce the GUI or output we interact with.
Do you see what I mean?
Do you see what I mean?
Sounds interesting, but I'm really asking more of a technical question here than a philosophical one. Your comment seems a bit more high level than what I'm going for.
This article seems credible and actually made me feel as if I understood it, i.e. at some depth but not deeper than a relative layperson can grasp.
What I can't understand is how the Bing chatbot can give me accurate links to sources but chatGPT4 on request gives me nonsensical URLs in 4 case of 5. It doesn't matter in the cases where I ask it to write a program: the verification is in the running of it. But to have real utility in general knowledge situations, verification through accurate links to sources is a must.
What I can't understand is how the Bing chatbot can give me accurate links to sources but chatGPT4 on request gives me nonsensical URLs in 4 case of 5. It doesn't matter in the cases where I ask it to write a program: the verification is in the running of it. But to have real utility in general knowledge situations, verification through accurate links to sources is a must.
> What I can't understand is how the Bing chatbot can give me accurate links to sources but chatGPT4 on request gives me nonsensical URLs in 4 case of 5
The bing version might run a bing query, fetch the X top pages, run GPT on it, return a response based on what it read, and in the back assign the summary to the source
The bing version might run a bing query, fetch the X top pages, run GPT on it, return a response based on what it read, and in the back assign the summary to the source
That might be the reason, probably. I mostly wanted to complain TBH. But I'm assuming it's one of those wrinkles that will get ironed out in subsequent versions.
> It doesn't matter in the cases where I ask it to write a program: the verification is in the running of it.
Even then. I've had it write programs that were syntactically correct and produced plausible, but incorrect behavior. I'm really careful about what I'll use GPT-generated code for. IMO write the tests yourself, at least.
Even then. I've had it write programs that were syntactically correct and produced plausible, but incorrect behavior. I'm really careful about what I'll use GPT-generated code for. IMO write the tests yourself, at least.
Absolutely! It is seldom correct right off the bat.
I commend the author for one of the clearest explanations I've seen so far, written to explain rather than impress. Even an idiot like myself understood what is explained.
Two things that I felt were glanced over a bit too fast were the concept of embeddings and that equation and parameters thing. Consider elaborating a bit more or giving an example
Two things that I felt were glanced over a bit too fast were the concept of embeddings and that equation and parameters thing. Consider elaborating a bit more or giving an example
If you pefer to see it in code there's a succint gpt implementation here https://github.com/LaurentMazare/tch-rs/blob/main/examples/m...
Not that much to explain, really. Just read chapter 5 of https://uefi.org/sites/default/files/resources/UEFI_Spec_2_8...
At least part of this article is contradicted by Chat GPT itself. From the article:
"...Ongoing learning: The brain keeps learning, including during a conversation, whereas GPT has finished its training long before the start of the conversation."
From ChatGPT 4.x:
"As an AI language model, I don't have a fixed training schedule. Instead, I'm constantly learning and updating myself based on the text data that I'm exposed to. My training data is sourced from the internet, books, and other written material, and my creators at OpenAI periodically update and fine-tune my algorithms to improve my performance. So, in short, I am always in the process of learning and refining my abilities based on the data available to me."
"...Ongoing learning: The brain keeps learning, including during a conversation, whereas GPT has finished its training long before the start of the conversation."
From ChatGPT 4.x:
"As an AI language model, I don't have a fixed training schedule. Instead, I'm constantly learning and updating myself based on the text data that I'm exposed to. My training data is sourced from the internet, books, and other written material, and my creators at OpenAI periodically update and fine-tune my algorithms to improve my performance. So, in short, I am always in the process of learning and refining my abilities based on the data available to me."
I asked it which was better, Lisp or Almonds.
It said that was an impossible comparison like Apples and Oranges.
Then I asked it which were more similar, Apples & Oranges or Lisp & Almonds.
It said it is impossible to classify either of those two pairs as more similar because they too fundamentally different. It couldn't come up with anything like Lisp is not edible. Or that Apples and Oranges are both sweet and Lisp and Almonds don't share any common traits.
It seems like it has far more trouble with weird questions like this that even a small child will instantly figure out than it does with anything that seems like a lookup of information.
It said that was an impossible comparison like Apples and Oranges.
Then I asked it which were more similar, Apples & Oranges or Lisp & Almonds.
It said it is impossible to classify either of those two pairs as more similar because they too fundamentally different. It couldn't come up with anything like Lisp is not edible. Or that Apples and Oranges are both sweet and Lisp and Almonds don't share any common traits.
It seems like it has far more trouble with weird questions like this that even a small child will instantly figure out than it does with anything that seems like a lookup of information.
I hear people with these outrageous examples and I have to wonder how or what you're actually trying? I just asked GPT-4 (via chat.openai.com):
> Which is more similar, Apples & Oranges or Lisp & Almonds?
and it said:
> When comparing these two pairs, the more similar pair would be Apples & Oranges. Both apples and oranges are fruits, and they share many characteristics, such as being edible, containing vitamins and nutrients, and growing on trees.
> On the other hand, Lisp & Almonds are quite dissimilar. Lisp is a programming language used for computing and software development, while almonds are a type of nut commonly consumed as a food item. They belong to completely different categories and share almost no common characteristics.
And the question about which is better had a reasonable answer, too. This is GPT-3.5 but GPT-4 was roughly equivalent:
> It's not really possible to compare the relative merits of Lisp and almonds, as they are fundamentally different things.
> Lisp is a programming language, and like any programming language, it has its own strengths and weaknesses, depending on what you're trying to accomplish. Some programmers might prefer Lisp for certain tasks, while others might prefer a different language.
> Almonds, on the other hand, are a type of nut that are known for their nutritional value and health benefits. They are a good source of healthy fats, protein, and fiber, and can be a valuable part of a healthy diet.
> So, whether Lisp or almonds are "better" really depends on what you're looking for. If you're a programmer, Lisp might be better for certain tasks, while if you're looking for a nutritious snack, almonds might be a better choice.
> Which is more similar, Apples & Oranges or Lisp & Almonds?
and it said:
> When comparing these two pairs, the more similar pair would be Apples & Oranges. Both apples and oranges are fruits, and they share many characteristics, such as being edible, containing vitamins and nutrients, and growing on trees.
> On the other hand, Lisp & Almonds are quite dissimilar. Lisp is a programming language used for computing and software development, while almonds are a type of nut commonly consumed as a food item. They belong to completely different categories and share almost no common characteristics.
And the question about which is better had a reasonable answer, too. This is GPT-3.5 but GPT-4 was roughly equivalent:
> It's not really possible to compare the relative merits of Lisp and almonds, as they are fundamentally different things.
> Lisp is a programming language, and like any programming language, it has its own strengths and weaknesses, depending on what you're trying to accomplish. Some programmers might prefer Lisp for certain tasks, while others might prefer a different language.
> Almonds, on the other hand, are a type of nut that are known for their nutritional value and health benefits. They are a good source of healthy fats, protein, and fiber, and can be a valuable part of a healthy diet.
> So, whether Lisp or almonds are "better" really depends on what you're looking for. If you're a programmer, Lisp might be better for certain tasks, while if you're looking for a nutritious snack, almonds might be a better choice.
I am not convinced that Chat GPT could "think" if it had as many neurons or parameters as a human brain, and got as much training.
I would still be interested to see what it could do, if it did, but I don't think it would really help science understand what intelligence really is.
Being able to grow a plant and understand some conditions that favors it is one thing, but it's poor science.
Maybe there will some progress when scientists will be able to properly simulate the brain of an ant or even a mouse, but science is not even there yet.
I would still be interested to see what it could do, if it did, but I don't think it would really help science understand what intelligence really is.
Being able to grow a plant and understand some conditions that favors it is one thing, but it's poor science.
Maybe there will some progress when scientists will be able to properly simulate the brain of an ant or even a mouse, but science is not even there yet.
> I don't think it would really help science understand what intelligence really is
Neuroscience is nowhere near finding out the connectome of a whole human brain so why not, we should look into these models as hints about what our circuits do.
I think what puts people off about these models is that they are clockwork: they won't even spit out anything unless you put some words in the input. But i can imagine adding a second network that includes an internal clock that continuously generates input by observing the model itself, that would be kind of like having an internal introspective monologue. Then it could be more believable that the model "thinks"
Neuroscience is nowhere near finding out the connectome of a whole human brain so why not, we should look into these models as hints about what our circuits do.
I think what puts people off about these models is that they are clockwork: they won't even spit out anything unless you put some words in the input. But i can imagine adding a second network that includes an internal clock that continuously generates input by observing the model itself, that would be kind of like having an internal introspective monologue. Then it could be more believable that the model "thinks"
So it’s basically the alchemical geometry of gematria and Isopsephia? Kinda cool that they’re similar in method.
I think it's the "The Paperclip Maximizer" scenario, not
"The Paperclip Optimizer"
It is still funny to me that so much emergent behavior comes from some simple token sampling task
Your token gets me thinking... Edward DeBono (Six Thinking Hats) has been a thing in business circles for creative thinking for years, and one could very easily make the argument that the process it describes is just as you state - take a token, now process the token through a series of steps that morph that token in predefined ways in order to generate a novel outcome.
Maybe this ChatGPT stuff is "smarter" than I've been giving it credit.
Maybe this ChatGPT stuff is "smarter" than I've been giving it credit.
Would it be a stretch to call GPT "glorified Markov Chains"? (I used tweaked M.C. once to make a music composer bot. I actually got a few decent tunes out of it, kind of a Bach style.)
This was a great read! Especially for a beginner like me.
Where is IBM's Watson in all this? It seems as if it never existed? That is just one example of how companies keep making these grand presentations and under-delivering on results...
Plain and simple the over-hyped GPT editions are NOT truly AI, it is scripting to assemble coherent looking sentences backed by scripts that parse content off of of stored data and the open web into presented responses.... There is no "artificial" nor non-human intelligence backing the process, and if there wasn't human intervention, it wouldn't run on it's own... In a way, it could better replace search engines at this point with even text-to-speech even, if the tech was more geared towards a more basic (and less mystified) reliability and demeanor... It's kind of like the Wizard of OZ, with many humans behind the curtains.
Marketers and companies behind promotion of these infantile technology solutions are being irresponsible in proclaiming that these things represent Ai, and in going as far to claim as they will cost jobs at this point, it will prove costly to repair over zealous moves based on the lie. This is what we do as a planet, we buy Hype, and it costs us a lot. We need a lot more practicality in discussions concerning Ai, because over-assertive and under-accountable marketing is destructive. -- Just look at how much hype and chaos promises of self-driving cars cost many (Not me though thanks). It completely derails tech progress to over promise and under deliver on tech solutions. It creates monopolies that totally destroy other valid research and development efforts. It makes liars profitable, and makes many (less flashy, but actually honest tech and innovation conducted by responsible people) close up shop.
We are far from autonomous and self reliant tech, even power grids across most of the planet aren't reliable enough to support tech being everywhere and replacing jobs.
Just try to hold a conversation with Siri or Google Assistant, which have probably been developed and tested a lot more than GPT, and around for much longer too, and you'll realize why kiosks at the supermarket and CVS are usually out of order, and why articles written by GPT and posted to sites like CNN.Com and Buzz Feed are poorly written and full of filler... We're just not there yet, and there's too many shortcuts, patchwork, human intervention, and failed promises to really say we're even close.
Let's stop making the wrong people rich and popular.
Plain and simple the over-hyped GPT editions are NOT truly AI, it is scripting to assemble coherent looking sentences backed by scripts that parse content off of of stored data and the open web into presented responses.... There is no "artificial" nor non-human intelligence backing the process, and if there wasn't human intervention, it wouldn't run on it's own... In a way, it could better replace search engines at this point with even text-to-speech even, if the tech was more geared towards a more basic (and less mystified) reliability and demeanor... It's kind of like the Wizard of OZ, with many humans behind the curtains.
Marketers and companies behind promotion of these infantile technology solutions are being irresponsible in proclaiming that these things represent Ai, and in going as far to claim as they will cost jobs at this point, it will prove costly to repair over zealous moves based on the lie. This is what we do as a planet, we buy Hype, and it costs us a lot. We need a lot more practicality in discussions concerning Ai, because over-assertive and under-accountable marketing is destructive. -- Just look at how much hype and chaos promises of self-driving cars cost many (Not me though thanks). It completely derails tech progress to over promise and under deliver on tech solutions. It creates monopolies that totally destroy other valid research and development efforts. It makes liars profitable, and makes many (less flashy, but actually honest tech and innovation conducted by responsible people) close up shop.
We are far from autonomous and self reliant tech, even power grids across most of the planet aren't reliable enough to support tech being everywhere and replacing jobs.
Just try to hold a conversation with Siri or Google Assistant, which have probably been developed and tested a lot more than GPT, and around for much longer too, and you'll realize why kiosks at the supermarket and CVS are usually out of order, and why articles written by GPT and posted to sites like CNN.Com and Buzz Feed are poorly written and full of filler... We're just not there yet, and there's too many shortcuts, patchwork, human intervention, and failed promises to really say we're even close.
Let's stop making the wrong people rich and popular.
What would be the differentiating factor(s) for true AI/intelligence in your opinion?
Self sustained and totally independent mental capacity by an IT system... The ability to create and store memory and reasoning on it's own... This definition is not made by me, it's also a lot more vast... If you look up Spielberg's AI or I robot, Terminator, or any of those other films or books ln the matter, the definition is out there.
Use of the word "Intelligence" in Artificial Intelligence implies and indicates that humans are not involved in the equation past the point of initial creation and that it sustains itself and grows on it's own after a point... So far the various GPT models solely rely on human intervention and updates, which is bewildering to some like me why it's being marketed as Ai.
Use of the word "Intelligence" in Artificial Intelligence implies and indicates that humans are not involved in the equation past the point of initial creation and that it sustains itself and grows on it's own after a point... So far the various GPT models solely rely on human intervention and updates, which is bewildering to some like me why it's being marketed as Ai.
any sufficiently advanced technology is AI...
Perhaps if you're a marketer anything can be defined loosely.
Having a world model
If you read some of the studies of these new LLMs you'll find pretty compelling evidence that they do have a world model. They still get things wrong but they can also correctly identify relationships and real world concepts with startling accuracy.
No, they don't. They fail at the arithmetics ffs.
It fails at _some_ arithmetic. Humans also fail at arithmetic...
In any case, is that the defining characteristic of having a good enough "world model"? What distinguishes your ability understand the world vs. an LLM? From my perspective, you would prove it by explaining it to me, in much the same way an LLM could.
In any case, is that the defining characteristic of having a good enough "world model"? What distinguishes your ability understand the world vs. an LLM? From my perspective, you would prove it by explaining it to me, in much the same way an LLM could.
Intent.
> Where is IBM's Watson in all this? It seems as if it never existed?
Nowadays, IBM's Watson is simply a brand name for any AI/ML related products under IBM.
Nowadays, IBM's Watson is simply a brand name for any AI/ML related products under IBM.
I’ve been looking an article like this, great job. Thanks
LogicalBorg(6)
I cannot see that it matters if a computer understands something. If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, and your only need is for it to quack and walk like a duck, then it doesn’t matter if it’s actually a duck or not for all intents and purposes.
It only matters if you probe beyond the realm at which you previously decided it matters (e.g roasting and eating it), at which point you are also insisting that it walk, quack and TASTE like a duck. So then you quantify that, change the goalposts, and assess every prospective duck against that.
And if one comes along that matches all of those but doesn’t have wings, then if you deny it to be a duck FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES it simply means you didn’t specify your requirements.
I’m no philosopher, but if your argument hinges on moving goalposts until purity is reached, and your basic assumption is that the requirements for purity are infinite, then it’s not a very useful argument.
It seems to me to posit that to understand requires that the understandee is human. If that’s the case we just pick another word for it and move on with our lives.