Most cars still cost more to charge than to fill up with gas(businessinsider.com)
businessinsider.com
Most cars still cost more to charge than to fill up with gas
https://www.businessinsider.com/ev-charging-cost-versus-gas-car-truck-suv-2023-7
88 comments
That's roughly around what I'm seeing as well as my electric is about the same rate. I'm in the midwest and gas is a little cheaper where I'm at, but it's still significantly cheaper to charge. Supercharging isn't too bad around me but I rarely ever use it. I did get to experience supercharging in California recently and it was probably as much or more than gas there which is probably why you see articles like this.
No one mentions oil either. I probably pay $100-150 a year to change the oil in my other ICE vehicle.
No one mentions oil either. I probably pay $100-150 a year to change the oil in my other ICE vehicle.
+ other maintenance costs that EVs don’t have to deal with (brakes, etc.)
EVs may have reduced use of the friction brakes, but I still wouldn't budget 0% to their maintenance ;)
Teslas at least are rated for the lifetime of the car, but it’s fair to say the chance of them getting replaced is higher than zero especially if you drive it a long time and brake aggressively.
don’t tires need to be replaced more often because batteries make the car heavier?
Not sure if that’s an actual known cause, but every personal story I know involves extreme acceleration contributing to quicker tire wear.
> I'm billed $.07 per kwh. My model 3 LR has a 75 kw battery, so to charge it from totally empty to totally full would cost $5.25
You're assuming 100% charge efficiency. I don't know what your actual home charging efficiency might be, but users seem to be reporting in the 80% to 95% range, with more in the 90s than 80s. So your actual cost could be $5.50 to $6.50. I'd guess that charging efficiency goes down as the battery gets older, but I have no evidence for that.
$0.07 per kwh also seems unusually cheap; where I am, costs are closer to $0.15 per kwh. So $11 to $14 per full charge sounds like a more realistic estimate for me, which still beats gas, but not quite as handily.
You're assuming 100% charge efficiency. I don't know what your actual home charging efficiency might be, but users seem to be reporting in the 80% to 95% range, with more in the 90s than 80s. So your actual cost could be $5.50 to $6.50. I'd guess that charging efficiency goes down as the battery gets older, but I have no evidence for that.
$0.07 per kwh also seems unusually cheap; where I am, costs are closer to $0.15 per kwh. So $11 to $14 per full charge sounds like a more realistic estimate for me, which still beats gas, but not quite as handily.
I pay hourly prices in Chicago, and it's often .03 or .04 $/kwh at off peak times.
The overnight electricity rate in Ontario, Canada can be 2.9 cents/kWh, and the price of gasoline is about $1.50/litre ($5.70/gallon). So it's over 10x as much to drive our gasoline vehicle as it is to drive the electric one. A lot over 10x, in fact, since our gasoline vehicle doesn't get anywhere near 50mpg...
This matches my experience with our two EVs.
One thing to add is that range increases a lot when driving below 45 mph. For city driving we get a lot more range for the same cost.
Switching from a minivan to a Nissan Leaf for around-town driving was a huge cost savings per month.
One thing to add is that range increases a lot when driving below 45 mph. For city driving we get a lot more range for the same cost.
Switching from a minivan to a Nissan Leaf for around-town driving was a huge cost savings per month.
The study has 75% of the EV charging done at commercial chargers at $0.42/kwh. And it also calculates as part of the cost, 12 hours at $33/hour for your time spent driving to, and waiting for, the commercial chargers.
My lowest cost per kWh in SF Bay Area is $0.34 or 5 times your energy cost.
I can switch to a plan where past midnight it’s 0.25 but it will bump a good chunk of the day to over $.50 per kWh
In other words, until I get solar, charging a vehicle at home is not a money saving proposition for me
In other words, until I get solar, charging a vehicle at home is not a money saving proposition for me
I live in Europe, it's approx. $0.41 per kWh and diesel fuel is $1.60/liter or approx $6,4/gallon.
If I use your example,
- 75 kw battery to full is $30.75 and it's $10.25 per 100 miles;
- 2 gallons for ICE to travel 100 miles, it would be $12.8 per 100 miles.
So electric car would be a clear winner. If I factor in charging at 80% efficiency, it's $12.3 - only a $0.5 difference.
And the country I live in has the 4th highest energy price in the entire block.
Two points I would also consider
1- the service cost of an ICE car would be higher in a long run compared to the electric one due to higher complexity and more moving parts.
2- electric's car battery will wear down overtime and it will probably run less during winter.
I don't have much data though to elaborate on those points.
If I use your example,
- 75 kw battery to full is $30.75 and it's $10.25 per 100 miles;
- 2 gallons for ICE to travel 100 miles, it would be $12.8 per 100 miles.
So electric car would be a clear winner. If I factor in charging at 80% efficiency, it's $12.3 - only a $0.5 difference.
And the country I live in has the 4th highest energy price in the entire block.
Two points I would also consider
1- the service cost of an ICE car would be higher in a long run compared to the electric one due to higher complexity and more moving parts.
2- electric's car battery will wear down overtime and it will probably run less during winter.
I don't have much data though to elaborate on those points.
Yeah price of electricity now when so few cars charging on the grid. What will the price of electricity be when everyone with a car is charging on the grid in the future?
The US is adding cheap renewable energy to the grid at a much higher rate than the rate of adoption of electric cars.
That's good news. Hopefully it will cover the increase in demand in the future.
$.07 where? That is quite a bit below avg in US. Did you include transmission or only generation?
I'm in Idaho and if you do a ToU plan, that's the the off peak number. [1]
EVs make a TON of sense here.
[1] https://www.idahopower.com/accounts-service/understand-your-...
EVs make a TON of sense here.
[1] https://www.idahopower.com/accounts-service/understand-your-...
You are assuming 100% efficiency in charging, probably 85% would be more realistic. Not a deciding factor at .07 kWh, but something you would feel at .50 kWh.
It's not just away from home. Where I live, electricity at home is $0.72/kWh during peak hours.
Another data point.
In NYC, residential power, including transit, taxes, other fees, is almost $0.35 and gas is $3.30
In NYC, residential power, including transit, taxes, other fees, is almost $0.35 and gas is $3.30
In california it is ~ $0.28-$0.49/kwh
EDIT: last I checked. wholesale rate is $0.02-$0.04/kwh, sigh.
EDIT: last I checked. wholesale rate is $0.02-$0.04/kwh, sigh.
I'm in SF and paid PGE $0.50938/KWh for peak hours electricity last bill.
Actually, from down thread, CA electricity goes up to $0.58!
https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/rate-plans/rate-plan-o...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36978291
Actually, from down thread, CA electricity goes up to $0.58!
https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/rate-plans/rate-plan-o...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36978291
Most of us don't live in the state of Washington where the electricity flows like wine*. $0.07/kwh is a good bargain these days. The national average across all of the USA is $0.23/kwh
Financially speaking, charging at home in California is a losing proposition.
* Please forgive me, I couldn't resist the Dumb and Dumber reference :p
Financially speaking, charging at home in California is a losing proposition.
* Please forgive me, I couldn't resist the Dumb and Dumber reference :p
Actually 26 states (most) have a billing option which provides cheap overnight rates for EV owners. For me, that means $0.01/kwh.
It seems like business insider's analysis lacks crucial nuance to how things actually work.
In a reality which exists beyond napkin calculations, our 2 EV household, our monthly electricity bill just hit its peak of $185 due to this heatwave. During March/October, it goes down as low as $50.
It seems like business insider's analysis lacks crucial nuance to how things actually work.
In a reality which exists beyond napkin calculations, our 2 EV household, our monthly electricity bill just hit its peak of $185 due to this heatwave. During March/October, it goes down as low as $50.
PG&E is charging between 31c - 45c /kWH in CA depending on time of day, season, etc (https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/pdfs/rate-plans/how-ra...)
so about $7.75 - $11.25 for that 100-mile fillup.
I try to charge during the day when solar covers the charging need, that comes with its own issues too tho.
so about $7.75 - $11.25 for that 100-mile fillup.
I try to charge during the day when solar covers the charging need, that comes with its own issues too tho.
I charge at home and it works just fine. I pay $0.25-$0.28/kwh. It puts the cost of a full 75kwh battery at ~$19. That’s still cheaper than paying $4.5-$5/gallon at the gas station.
In fact, even if I charge at the supercharger during peak hours, it costs at most the same as buying gas.
In fact, even if I charge at the supercharger during peak hours, it costs at most the same as buying gas.
Gas prices for most Americans (pretty much all outside of the west coast) are significantly lower than $4.50 per gallon.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GASREGCOVW
But it really depends on type of vehicle and type of usage.
Lots of start and stop miles, and electric might come out ahead. For example, family with kids that need to drive to various places.
Lots of short drives, but not a lot of total mileage, gas might still make more sense. For example, retiree or spare car.
Lots of long commutes at highway speeds, gas might still make more sense.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GASREGCOVW
But it really depends on type of vehicle and type of usage.
Lots of start and stop miles, and electric might come out ahead. For example, family with kids that need to drive to various places.
Lots of short drives, but not a lot of total mileage, gas might still make more sense. For example, retiree or spare car.
Lots of long commutes at highway speeds, gas might still make more sense.
Even in Phoenix during off-peak hours (on-peak is between 4-7PM) it's ~$.11 (without fees, this is the USA after all).
But... I just looked at my last bill. Apparently Mid peak is $.58 / kWh at SoCal Edison.
Even the cheapest time, Super off peak is $0.33333 / kWh which is more than Peak Usage in Phoenix, which ends up being $.29 / kWh.
I didn't know it was that bad.
But... I just looked at my last bill. Apparently Mid peak is $.58 / kWh at SoCal Edison.
Even the cheapest time, Super off peak is $0.33333 / kWh which is more than Peak Usage in Phoenix, which ends up being $.29 / kWh.
I didn't know it was that bad.
Don’t live in Washington state, have the same cost of electricity at home.
Vote out your elected officials.
You are an anomaly. Your cost of electricity can’t be replicated most anywhere else.
And when everyone has an EV charging on the grid what do think the price of electricity will be then?
This makes no sense.
Nissan leaf is 33 kWH / 100 miles per EPA [1]. Average US kWH cost is $0.17. [2] On average this should cost you $5.61 / 100 miles.
The study [3] methodology [4] gives a figure of $12.62 / 100 miles because it says road taxes + cost of charger is $7 / 100 miles, most of which is the charger. Because bundling fixed costs into a variable cost calculation is logical. Lol.
[1] https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/44448.shtml [2] https://www.bls.gov/regions/midwest/data/averageenergyprices... [3] https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/many-gas-powered-cars-... [4]
Nissan leaf is 33 kWH / 100 miles per EPA [1]. Average US kWH cost is $0.17. [2] On average this should cost you $5.61 / 100 miles.
The study [3] methodology [4] gives a figure of $12.62 / 100 miles because it says road taxes + cost of charger is $7 / 100 miles, most of which is the charger. Because bundling fixed costs into a variable cost calculation is logical. Lol.
[1] https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/44448.shtml [2] https://www.bls.gov/regions/midwest/data/averageenergyprices... [3] https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/many-gas-powered-cars-... [4]
It’s not a fair comparison, notably because the “Average” American doesn’t own an EV. Once you start using more power the utility throws you into higher tiers with a higher cost per kWH. Like, using 700 kWH a month might be $70, but 1400 kWH might be $200.
Anyone from California knows this well because the tiers are extremely low. The whole economics of EVs starts to fall apart at 30/40/50c per kWH.
Anyone from California knows this well because the tiers are extremely low. The whole economics of EVs starts to fall apart at 30/40/50c per kWH.
This sounds like a hack job article by some consulting firm hired by an O&G think tank.
Will look at the numbers more closely later. Skimming through it, the numbers don't look right. Also oddly enough, they somehow equate electric trucks as equivalent to ICE trucks in terms of cost to recharge/fuel up?
Will look at the numbers more closely later. Skimming through it, the numbers don't look right. Also oddly enough, they somehow equate electric trucks as equivalent to ICE trucks in terms of cost to recharge/fuel up?
An interesting (to me) meta analysis of the discussion here: most people who find the numbers out of whack bring up charging at home at off peak rates. But home ownership is only about 65% in the us, and falling about 1.5% quarterly.
That is, home charging is not available to a significant and growing population. Home charging without a garage is pretty risky due to the high value of charging cables.
As it stands, a lot of car owners will continue to use gas stations and charging stations, raising their costs accordingly.
That is, home charging is not available to a significant and growing population. Home charging without a garage is pretty risky due to the high value of charging cables.
As it stands, a lot of car owners will continue to use gas stations and charging stations, raising their costs accordingly.
They don’t give specific numbers, but I took the state with the 10th cheapest gas (SC, $3.50) and 10th most expensive electricity (VT, $0.21/kWh), and compared expenses for a small SUV (Hyundai Kona EV(27kwh/100mi) and Kona ICE (3.1 gal/100mi))
12000 miles would cost $720/yr in the EV and $1300/yr for the ICE car.
I’m not sure how they determined costs for a charger (an EVSE to be pedantic), a 20A level 2 charger can be found for under $400, which would add less than $100/year over 5 years, the wiring to install the charger may cost significantly more, but since it’s a durable addition to your house, it should be amortized over a much longer timeframe, $3000 over 30 years is around $200/year.
I think that for most people that can charge at home, the EV is going to be cheaper to fuel, but that depends on EV rates, gas prices and registration fees(but even Texas’s $200/year fee would still leave this Hyundai EV being cheaper). I also excluded oil changes, for 12000 miles, my ICE car would need around 1.5 oil changes/year at $60/each. And of,course, like this report, I ignored the cost difference between the EV and the ICE car, which in this case is around $10,000 ignoring tax breaks.
In my case, my EV charge station cost nothing because I use the level 1 10A charger that came with the car and plug it into a normal wall outlet and it more than keeps up with my commute. (And I live in a state with $5 gas and $0.13 electricity, so it makes the EV even cheaper to operate)
https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph...
https://www.gasbuddy.com/usa
https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=46000&id=4...
12000 miles would cost $720/yr in the EV and $1300/yr for the ICE car.
I’m not sure how they determined costs for a charger (an EVSE to be pedantic), a 20A level 2 charger can be found for under $400, which would add less than $100/year over 5 years, the wiring to install the charger may cost significantly more, but since it’s a durable addition to your house, it should be amortized over a much longer timeframe, $3000 over 30 years is around $200/year.
I think that for most people that can charge at home, the EV is going to be cheaper to fuel, but that depends on EV rates, gas prices and registration fees(but even Texas’s $200/year fee would still leave this Hyundai EV being cheaper). I also excluded oil changes, for 12000 miles, my ICE car would need around 1.5 oil changes/year at $60/each. And of,course, like this report, I ignored the cost difference between the EV and the ICE car, which in this case is around $10,000 ignoring tax breaks.
In my case, my EV charge station cost nothing because I use the level 1 10A charger that came with the car and plug it into a normal wall outlet and it more than keeps up with my commute. (And I live in a state with $5 gas and $0.13 electricity, so it makes the EV even cheaper to operate)
https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph...
https://www.gasbuddy.com/usa
https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=46000&id=4...
That electric price is far from accurate. $.21/kWh is what the average person is paying to power a few light bulbs and occasionally run the oven. Not use an EV that will triple or quadruple the electric usage and be charged at a much higher rate.
Green mountain power covers most of the state (by area, if not by population) and their tariff sheet says says they charge $0.18kWh up to 7600 kWh/month (after that you have to move to time of day rates). If you use a smart charger that can turn itself off during peak demand periods they have an off peak demand EV rate of $0.14/kWh, or if you can charge off peak (outside of 1pm to 9pm) for $0.137/kWh
https://greenmountainpower.com/rates/
https://greenmountainpower.com/rates/
This is in the U.S., where gas is insanely cheap compared to Europe. I'd be curious to see what the math looks like with, for example, Dutch gas prices, which are currently almost at €2 per liter, which is just over $8 per gallon at current exchange rates.
Nowhere does it say how much the energy price is per kw/h energy prices vary drastically depending on where you live from 10c-35+
Here's a direct link to the source study: https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/many-gas-powered-cars-...
edited to update my link to the latest version
edited to update my link to the latest version
After reading the summary I linked to and browsing through the source PDF, I don't think these cost comparisons are fair or reasonable.
First, they amortize the cost of home charging infrastructure over 5 years, but personally, that's not how I think about those costs. When I'm comparing prices between cars, I'm considering the home charging as a one-time upfront cost. Once I've paid that cost it's not part of my ongoing costs to fuel the car.
You could argue that home charging infrastructure is a part of the cost of an electric car, sure, but if you're going to include that in the cost of the electric car, why not include the total cost of ownership for the ICE car as well (oil-changes, tuneups, emissions tests, etc.)? This article feels biased against EVs by only including additional costs of ownership for EVs and ignoring costs for ICs.
Also, high-voltage chargers for our home or commercial chargers on the road would be completely unnecessary for my family. We drive infrequently enough that an extension cord snaked to our driveway would be plenty of power.
First, they amortize the cost of home charging infrastructure over 5 years, but personally, that's not how I think about those costs. When I'm comparing prices between cars, I'm considering the home charging as a one-time upfront cost. Once I've paid that cost it's not part of my ongoing costs to fuel the car.
You could argue that home charging infrastructure is a part of the cost of an electric car, sure, but if you're going to include that in the cost of the electric car, why not include the total cost of ownership for the ICE car as well (oil-changes, tuneups, emissions tests, etc.)? This article feels biased against EVs by only including additional costs of ownership for EVs and ignoring costs for ICs.
Also, high-voltage chargers for our home or commercial chargers on the road would be completely unnecessary for my family. We drive infrequently enough that an extension cord snaked to our driveway would be plenty of power.
> First, they amortize the cost of home charging infrastructure over 5 years, but personally, that's not how I think about those costs. When I'm comparing prices between cars, I'm considering the home charging as a one-time upfront cost. Once I've paid that cost it's not part of my ongoing costs to fuel the car.
Eeeehhhhhh... I don't think it's unfair.
The way I think of it would be capital cost to operating cost break even point. If it costs me $X install the equipment, but reduces my per distance operating costs, eventually at some point in the saved operating costs will overtake the initial upfront costs and you're outright saving money. Until that point through you're still technically behind in what you paid though.
I do think it's really weird to try and include it in a per KM operating costs as they did though. That's about as twisted up as Tesla saying the real cost of a car is the purchase price - the gas you don't burn price.
But at the same time, ignoring the cost of it is also weird to me as well if you want to talk about total cost of ownership. Once you've hit that break even, sure, but until then, eh.
Eeeehhhhhh... I don't think it's unfair.
The way I think of it would be capital cost to operating cost break even point. If it costs me $X install the equipment, but reduces my per distance operating costs, eventually at some point in the saved operating costs will overtake the initial upfront costs and you're outright saving money. Until that point through you're still technically behind in what you paid though.
I do think it's really weird to try and include it in a per KM operating costs as they did though. That's about as twisted up as Tesla saying the real cost of a car is the purchase price - the gas you don't burn price.
But at the same time, ignoring the cost of it is also weird to me as well if you want to talk about total cost of ownership. Once you've hit that break even, sure, but until then, eh.
This doesn't actually compare marginal costs. It factors in fixed costs like the cost of the charger for the EV amortized over five years. It counts road taxes for both types of vehicles, but road taxes are marginal for gas vehicles and fixed for electric ones. It doesn't count the additional marginal costs of maintaining an ICE vehicle over an EV.
And all of the taxes come from Michigan, which is one of those states that charge EV and hybrid owners extra to register and have lower gas prices than the rest of the country. I'm almost certain this would give a different result closer to the coasts.
This overall study feels like statistical cherry-picking to eeek out a marginal result.
And all of the taxes come from Michigan, which is one of those states that charge EV and hybrid owners extra to register and have lower gas prices than the rest of the country. I'm almost certain this would give a different result closer to the coasts.
This overall study feels like statistical cherry-picking to eeek out a marginal result.
Sorry, that's not the correct link. Although that link describes the methodology and data sources, that is the version from 2022. The 2023 source is https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/many-gas-powered-cars-....
Their data is smelly, from a quick computation from EPA.gov ( https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=46356&... ): a Nissan Versa gets so ~2.9 gallons for 100 miles, a Bolt 29kWh / 100 miles, at $5.025 a gallon (current California gas rates) and $0.26 a kWh (PG&E rate) that'd be ~$14.6 vs ~$7.26.
If you compare instead in Texas at ~$3.4 a gallon / $0.14 a kWh, $9.86 / $4.06.
If you compare instead in Texas at ~$3.4 a gallon / $0.14 a kWh, $9.86 / $4.06.
The study also adds in "deadhead" time and miles required to drive to/from commercial chargers. It also calculates 12 hours/month waiting for the charger at $33/hour, so $400 extra a month.
Thanks, updated
Tesla M3 owner. Does it cost more to charge at a supercharger during peak hours in a state where gas is cheap? Absolutely. Does it cost less in states like California where gas is ridiculously expensive using a slow charger at home/workplace? Also absolutely.
> Does it cost less in states like California where gas is ridiculously expensive
Electricity is also ridiculously expensive in CA especially in PG&E areas.[0] Off peak is 27 cents with peak rates rising to 58 cents.
[0] https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/rate-plans/rate-plan-o...
Electricity is also ridiculously expensive in CA especially in PG&E areas.[0] Off peak is 27 cents with peak rates rising to 58 cents.
[0] https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/rate-plans/rate-plan-o...
I charge at home and it works just fine. I pay $0.25-$0.28/kwh. It puts the cost of a full 75kwh battery at ~$19. That’s still cheaper than paying $4.5-$5/gallon at the gas station.
In fact, even if I charge at the supercharger during peak hours, it costs at most the same as buying gas.
In fact, even if I charge at the supercharger during peak hours, it costs at most the same as buying gas.
Comparing cost of full battery to full tank is meaningless because the ranges are different.
How much does it cost to drive 100 miles on model 3 vs say Camry hybrid.
My calculations showed that differences are not significant at my $.35 per kWh rate and $4.5 per gallon.
Of course camry hybrid costs thousands of dollars less than tesla* and has a range of 500 miles.
* my household does not qualify for income based incentives
Of course camry hybrid costs thousands of dollars less than tesla* and has a range of 500 miles.
* my household does not qualify for income based incentives
I can just say that I live in the middle of the US and it currently costs me about 4 cents per mile to drive my Volt on electric and about 9 cents per mile to drive on gas. The factor was closing in on 5 when gas prices peaked.
Their methodology involves things like including the cost of residential chargers spread over 5 years "(We assume an L1 charger costs $600 and L2 charger with installation in 2021 costs $1,820.40)" and including cost of the time taken to occasionally drive to commercial chargers
article here: https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/many-gas-powered-cars-...
cost calculation methodology from 2022 here: https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/second-edition-real-wo...
... and in more detail here https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/202...
They base it all on Michigan so really the headline should end "... in Michigan". In Europe for example it would all look very different.
article here: https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/many-gas-powered-cars-...
cost calculation methodology from 2022 here: https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/second-edition-real-wo...
... and in more detail here https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/202...
They base it all on Michigan so really the headline should end "... in Michigan". In Europe for example it would all look very different.
Fuel cost is only one of the per-mile costs for a vehicle. Lifetime total cost of ownership still looks good for electric compared to gas: https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/data-tools/electric-...
I've also never seen a calculator that includes the time cost of refueling and maintenance for ICE vehicles.
I've also never seen a calculator that includes the time cost of refueling and maintenance for ICE vehicles.
Charging at home easily wins, especially if you have built out your solar accordingly. Many states like CA require a limit of 150% current use as the max for what you can build, but it's just as easy to get the car first. On top of that, the article doesn't mention maintenance. That may not be as much of an issue with a mid-market car like a Toyota, but cars like Tesla have far lower maintenance bills that up-market brands like Lexus, Audi, Mercedes, etc. It's easy to spend $2k/year on maintenance for luxury cars- sometimes far more than that.
[deleted]
This is surprising to me, and I'm getting confused.
A hybrid that you don't plug in, clearly gets better gas mileage than a gas car, so must cost less per mile?
(Or is the original research amortizing the more expensive original purchase price too?)
But does that mean that "traditional" (not plug-in) hybrids are cheaper to power per-mile than either full ICE or full EV? That seems surprising too. (And then what about plug-in hybrids?)
A hybrid that you don't plug in, clearly gets better gas mileage than a gas car, so must cost less per mile?
(Or is the original research amortizing the more expensive original purchase price too?)
But does that mean that "traditional" (not plug-in) hybrids are cheaper to power per-mile than either full ICE or full EV? That seems surprising too. (And then what about plug-in hybrids?)
Looking at the study they source, one reason they were able to get the fossil fuel price to low is that gas prices have fallen recently.
Anecdotally, gas prices seem to be the mostly wildly fluctuating commodity price that I’ve ever been exposed to as a consumer. I would definitely not tie a necessary function like transportation to something so unpredictable unless I had any other choice. Can’t wait for used EVs to become more widespread.
Anecdotally, gas prices seem to be the mostly wildly fluctuating commodity price that I’ve ever been exposed to as a consumer. I would definitely not tie a necessary function like transportation to something so unpredictable unless I had any other choice. Can’t wait for used EVs to become more widespread.
A rebuttal:
https://cleantechnica.com/2021/10/26/about-that-scary-evs-co...
tldr: lots of shady figures went into this to make EVs look as expensive as possible and ICE vehicles look as cheap as possible. Garbage "study".
tldr: lots of shady figures went into this to make EVs look as expensive as possible and ICE vehicles look as cheap as possible. Garbage "study".
how can a study in 2023 be rebutted something from 2021 ? eh?
garbage link
garbage link
Good to point out, thanks. It's talking about a past study (past edition/version?) from the same source -- Anderson Economic Group.
It seems likely they used the same methodology in the 2023 edition and just updated some numbers, but you're right to point out it's not entirely safe to just assume that.
It's still not "garbage" to look at what people said about a past report on the same thing with the same conclusions from the same source.
One of the main things they point out in this fairly short piece, was that the report included an hourly rate for waiting for a charge was included. That seems to be true in the 2023 "edition" too. That may or may not be "fair" to include, it's a matter of opinion I suppose, but I definitely didn't realize it was a major part of their "expense" calculation until someone pointed it out. (A commenter in the thread here also points it out).
It seems likely they used the same methodology in the 2023 edition and just updated some numbers, but you're right to point out it's not entirely safe to just assume that.
It's still not "garbage" to look at what people said about a past report on the same thing with the same conclusions from the same source.
One of the main things they point out in this fairly short piece, was that the report included an hourly rate for waiting for a charge was included. That seems to be true in the 2023 "edition" too. That may or may not be "fair" to include, it's a matter of opinion I suppose, but I definitely didn't realize it was a major part of their "expense" calculation until someone pointed it out. (A commenter in the thread here also points it out).
The report uses commercial charges for 75% of the time and adds road tax on top of it.
Looks like someone doesn’t like electric cars
Reading the full report, the author is trying to include secondary costs. For example, a Luxury EV using mostly commercial chargers, the owner will spend ~12 hours per month charging at an hourly wage of $33, costing another $401.50 per month. After rolling these secondary costs back into the cost to refuel, some of the EV scenarios are more expensive than ICE.
The costs listed in the BI article don't seem to actually match those in the report as far as I can see. e.g. they say charging a Rivian at home for 100 miles would cost over $17 but in the report they list the cost of home charging a luxury EV at ~$12
The math on my bolt euv is way way in favor of the grid at home. it was 3x cheaper to use the grid than my 25mpg car last time I calculated it and I didn't use 100% efficiency of charging either.
Personally from my experience living in San Diego, California I pay less than 50 $ a month and had the car for 4 years and have around 100K miles . Model 3
I've looked at the Chevy Bolt, since that is the cheapest decent EV (after current incentives) in my state. Here's what they say about the Bolt:
> If a driver owns a Nissan Versa, Hyundai Elantra, or Kia Forte, it's set to cost them about $9.78 in gas for every 100 miles.
> But switch to a Nissan Leaf or Chevrolet Bolt, and that increases to about $12.55 in home-charging expenses
The highest mpg ICE car of the three they list gets 39 mpg highway, so 100 miles would use 2.56 gallons.
Bolt level 1 charges at 4 miles/hour. Typical home 120 V circuits are 15 A max, so lets assume that is how many amps it charges at. For 100 miles that would be 25 hours @ 4 miles/hour. That would use 25 hours x 120 V x 15 A = 45 kWh of electricity.
We pay about $0.12/kWh here which would put 45 kWh at $5.40. The Bolt wins unless I can get gas for under $2.11/gallon. It's over $5/gallon here right now, so the Bolt wins big.
Furthermore, Google tells me the Bolt actually only charges at 8 A at 120 V. If that is what the 4 miles/hour charge rate is based on then the Bolt would actually win unless gas was below $1.13/gallon. Google also tells me that there is a manual override that raises it to 12 A. If that's what the 4 miles/hour was based on gas would need to be under $1.69/gallon for the Bolt to lose.
Looking at this from the other direction, the state with the cheapest gas right now is Mississippi at around $3.30/gallon, which would be $8.45 for 100 miles in a Kia Forte.
Using 4 miles/hour charge @ 120 V, 12 A for the Bolt gives 36 kWh for 100 miles of charge. That would beat a Kia Forte on Mississippi gas anyplace where electricity is under $0.23/kWh. That's every state except Alaska, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Maine, California, New Hampshire, Connecticut, and Hawaii.
In general, the Bolt wins when charged at level 1 at home given electricity at $E/kWh and gas at $G/gallon if:
> If a driver owns a Nissan Versa, Hyundai Elantra, or Kia Forte, it's set to cost them about $9.78 in gas for every 100 miles.
> But switch to a Nissan Leaf or Chevrolet Bolt, and that increases to about $12.55 in home-charging expenses
The highest mpg ICE car of the three they list gets 39 mpg highway, so 100 miles would use 2.56 gallons.
Bolt level 1 charges at 4 miles/hour. Typical home 120 V circuits are 15 A max, so lets assume that is how many amps it charges at. For 100 miles that would be 25 hours @ 4 miles/hour. That would use 25 hours x 120 V x 15 A = 45 kWh of electricity.
We pay about $0.12/kWh here which would put 45 kWh at $5.40. The Bolt wins unless I can get gas for under $2.11/gallon. It's over $5/gallon here right now, so the Bolt wins big.
Furthermore, Google tells me the Bolt actually only charges at 8 A at 120 V. If that is what the 4 miles/hour charge rate is based on then the Bolt would actually win unless gas was below $1.13/gallon. Google also tells me that there is a manual override that raises it to 12 A. If that's what the 4 miles/hour was based on gas would need to be under $1.69/gallon for the Bolt to lose.
Looking at this from the other direction, the state with the cheapest gas right now is Mississippi at around $3.30/gallon, which would be $8.45 for 100 miles in a Kia Forte.
Using 4 miles/hour charge @ 120 V, 12 A for the Bolt gives 36 kWh for 100 miles of charge. That would beat a Kia Forte on Mississippi gas anyplace where electricity is under $0.23/kWh. That's every state except Alaska, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Maine, California, New Hampshire, Connecticut, and Hawaii.
In general, the Bolt wins when charged at level 1 at home given electricity at $E/kWh and gas at $G/gallon if:
14.1 < G/E
G E G/E State
$4.72 $0.42 11.2 Hawaii
$3.65 $0.31 11.9 New Hampshire
$3.79 $0.31 12.1 Connecticut
$3.71 $0.29 12.8 Massachusetts
$3.78 $0.29 12.9 Maine
$3.70 $0.27 13.8 Rhode Island
----- Bolt wins below this line -----
$5.03 $0.30 16.9 California
$4.37 $0.25 17.6 Alaska
$3.76 $0.21 17.9 Vermont
$3.87 $0.20 18.9 New York
$3.66 $0.19 19.7 Michigan
$3.59 $0.17 20.7 Wisconsin
$3.87 $0.18 21.2 Pennsylvania
$3.72 $0.17 21.7 New Jersey
$3.66 $0.17 22.0 Delaware
$3.48 $0.15 22.5 Ohio
$4.02 $0.18 22.5 Illinois
$3.94 $0.17 23.1 District of Columbia
$3.31 $0.14 23.5 Mississippi
$3.78 $0.16 23.5 Maryland
$3.44 $0.15 23.7 Alabama
$3.64 $0.15 23.9 Virginia
$3.48 $0.14 24.0 Texas
$3.67 $0.15 24.3 Indiana
$3.56 $0.15 24.3 West Virginia
$3.53 $0.14 24.5 South Carolina
$4.32 $0.17 24.8 Nevada
$3.80 $0.15 25.0 Minnesota
$3.82 $0.15 25.1 Florida
$3.57 $0.14 25.3 Kansas
$3.63 $0.14 25.9 Georgia
$3.77 $0.14 26.6 Iowa
$3.86 $0.14 27.0 Arizona
$3.59 $0.13 27.1 North Carolina
$3.46 $0.13 27.6 Kentucky
$3.97 $0.14 27.6 Colorado
$3.47 $0.12 28.1 Tennessee
$3.74 $0.13 28.1 New Mexico
$3.47 $0.12 28.2 Arkansas
$3.58 $0.12 28.7 Missouri
$3.77 $0.13 29.0 South Dakota
$3.42 $0.12 29.2 Louisiana
$3.53 $0.12 29.8 Oklahoma
$3.94 $0.13 30.7 Montana
$3.68 $0.12 31.0 Nebraska
$3.71 $0.12 31.7 North Dakota
$3.83 $0.12 32.1 Wyoming
$4.63 $0.13 35.8 Oregon
$3.98 $0.11 36.8 Idaho
$4.06 $0.11 37.4 Utah
$4.97 $0.11 44.5 WashingtonUpdate: the site I was getting Bolt charging speed in miles per hour from was in fact based on 120 V 8 A, not the 12 A I used, meaning that the Bolt wins when G/E > 9.4. That means that the Bolt wins currently in all US states.
strange they fail to mention a diesel truck is going to cost you a lot more than a gas one.
[deleted]
Yet another example of misinformation being most likely backed by traditional OEMs or oil companies. I don’t agree with all of Elon’s choices but this kind of crap makes things more understandable.
Wait, are people buying EVs because they expect to be paying less to power their vehicles? I thought they were buying them for other reasons than that.
I mean, yes? There was a lot of talk years ago of the benefits of regenerative breaking. At the time the consensus was that for in city driving that could recoup a considerable amount of the energy. Add on top of that the efficiencies of burning fuel in a power station vs ICE, and it sounded like there was a good chance it’d be cheaper.
I haven’t heard a lot of those arguments in a long time though. Hard to say if they were founded or if they were just part of the marketing zeitgeist trying to get people excited for electric.
And of course, I just realized that no one talked about conditioning, hot and cold with power, that alone could account for some pretty big power bills. Pretty convenient…
I haven’t heard a lot of those arguments in a long time though. Hard to say if they were founded or if they were just part of the marketing zeitgeist trying to get people excited for electric.
And of course, I just realized that no one talked about conditioning, hot and cold with power, that alone could account for some pretty big power bills. Pretty convenient…
Yes actually.
Years ago Tesla's website show of the cost of the Model 3 as ($Purchase Price - $Expected Gas savings), so instead of being presented with a $55,000 CAD purchase price, it was shown as around high $40,000 or something around there. I think that was circa 2017 but I'm not 100% sure.
So it was a selling point.
Years ago Tesla's website show of the cost of the Model 3 as ($Purchase Price - $Expected Gas savings), so instead of being presented with a $55,000 CAD purchase price, it was shown as around high $40,000 or something around there. I think that was circa 2017 but I'm not 100% sure.
So it was a selling point.
TCO is definitely one of the issues I considered. At the time I purchased my Chevy Bolt I calculated that the savings on fuel would roughly cancel out the difference in purchase price compared to a Honda Fit, given relative electricity and gasoline prices in my area. I wouldn't say TCO was the reason I bought it, but it was essential in justifying paying more than I normally would for a car.
The numbers I ran have largely held up for me. The big surprise was finding out it costs way more to insure. Some of that I should have expected since the Bolt has a higher replacement cost, but that alone doesn't come close to explaining the difference.
The numbers I ran have largely held up for me. The big surprise was finding out it costs way more to insure. Some of that I should have expected since the Bolt has a higher replacement cost, but that alone doesn't come close to explaining the difference.
Yes, I think so. I found this article surprising, I often hear people say that the upfront expense of an EV is worth it because of how much you save on fueling/powering.
Huh. I had no idea. I learn something new every day!
Are Tesla Model S buyers worried about paying less? Probably not.
Are entry level EV buyers? Maybe/Probably...
Are entry level EV buyers? Maybe/Probably...
Of course. My £100 saving on fuel offsets some of the £500 lease cost.
I also put £20k into my mortgage, freeing up another £200/month to offset.
The lease includes insurance, tyres and maintenance.
My last car was costing me ~£1200/year on maintenance so it had to go.
Fuel was always part of the equation.
I also put £20k into my mortgage, freeing up another £200/month to offset.
The lease includes insurance, tyres and maintenance.
My last car was costing me ~£1200/year on maintenance so it had to go.
Fuel was always part of the equation.
It is cheaper and yes, especially people with long commutes are buying them to save money over time.
If you're charging at home, the EV easily wins.
However, charging away from home can get expensive. During peak hours, it's possible to find charging for $.50 per kwh. Now it would cost $37.50 or $12.50 to drive 100 miles. Compared to the $8.00 in the ICE car, the EV is more expensive.
I think it's a bit disingenuous to claim that most cars cost more to charge than to fill up with gas. If you are able to charge at home, EVs are cheaper to drive per mile.