My Unhealthy Relationship with Keyboards(jackevansevo.github.io)
jackevansevo.github.io
My Unhealthy Relationship with Keyboards
https://jackevansevo.github.io/my-unhealthy-relationship-with-keyboards.html
388 comments
I eventually wound up with Kinesis ergo keyboards and stopped being much "into" keyboards; they are a means to an end: https://jakeseliger.com/2011/07/17/further-thoughts-on-the-k....
Now I have an Advantage 3 with Box White switches, after admittedly talking to an Upgrade Keyboards key switch sommelier, which I admit somewhat undercuts my first sentence in this comment.
Now I have an Advantage 3 with Box White switches, after admittedly talking to an Upgrade Keyboards key switch sommelier, which I admit somewhat undercuts my first sentence in this comment.
> key switch sommelier
I genuinely hope this is someone's official job title somewhere.
I genuinely hope this is someone's official job title somewhere.
I'm imagining some fancy and twisted vilain's startup operation as in a 90's hacker movie.
"How about some cherry mx blue and caviar while we take over the world?"
"How about some cherry mx blue and caviar while we take over the world?"
I switched to advantages more than 20 years ago, but i still keep building new mechanicals, a couple for me (playing games on an advantage is ... hilarious), some for friends. But I hear this. I went to a 360pro with browns (because I ordered it direct before the upgrade keyboards stuff went live). Maybe I'll swap them out some day (one of the used advantage 2s I picked up a few years back was the RedLF model and I thought I'd hate it, but for 50$ who can refuse, but I found myself preferring it over the brown model).
I love my Kinesis Advantage 2 keyboard, it's saved my hands/wrists. How's the 3 in comparison?
The 3 is basically the same except you have real F keys and can upload settings to it via USB. Both are great keyboards. I’ve used them for well over a decade.
I went from 1's and 2's w/ custom controllers to a 360pro. It's largely the same board in terms of geometry. There are a few more keys, which are welcome, it's ZMK programmable (pro only). The writ wrests, extra, are better and don't seem to deform/wear out like the old ones. It's much less 'hollow', feels much more solid. The tenting is pretty awesome, the split is welcome. I would buy the pbt keys for extra $, the keys they ship are shit. I also pulled the DSA homerow from one of my advantages and used it here, they moved away from those special home row caps for cost reasons.
I recently purchased an Alice format ergonomic keyboard, the keychron k15 pro [1]. It has a split design, but otherwise it’s totally flat. How much of an improvement do you think a more ergonomically shaped keyboard l8ke a kinesis makes?
[1]: https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-k15-pro-alice-lay...
[1]: https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-k15-pro-alice-lay...
i really miss the 12 or 18 macro keys to the left side of the keyboard of the ol logitech G15 and G110.
have you used this for gaming? specifically FPSs and MMORPGs where left hand needs easy access to the right side of the split-keyboard?
have you used this for gaming? specifically FPSs and MMORPGs where left hand needs easy access to the right side of the split-keyboard?
No, don't know how this works for gaming, my gaming is limited to some formula 1 on an xbox.
I have been using the Freestyle Pro for the last 4 years now and it has ended me thinking about keyboards. I was really looking forward to the new super fancy one, but that felt too expensive when I already have one I am happy with it. ~600 Euros in DE when I remember correctly.
Same here. I've been a Kinesis fan since 2012 and went through several Freestyles, and for the last 5 years or so I've rocked the Edge (basically a Pro with rgb lights and mech switches). I was really looking forward to the Advantage360 but the UK price is mental: £590 for the cordless version. Yes, it's a great keyboard that will likely last a decade, but I'm not convinced the gains are big enough to justify the cost.
> eventually wound up with Kinesis ergo keyboards and stopped being much "into" keyboards;
Aren't those like $500 a pop? Handing out that kind of dough for a keyboard sounds like the opposite of stopping being much into keyboards.
Aren't those like $500 a pop? Handing out that kind of dough for a keyboard sounds like the opposite of stopping being much into keyboards.
Someone owning only one car, and it being a $100k+ Mercedes, probably means they aren’t into cars as a hobby. They found a great vehicle they like and can afford, they enjoy driving it regularly, and it meets all of their needs. There is nothing wrong with that, and, in fact, it sounds awesome.
However, someone who has 5-6 sub-$10k cars in their garage is almost definitely very into cars. It is about tinkering with them, racing them, restoring, building project cars, doing car shows, collecting them, etc. Doesn’t have to be all of those at all, just any single one (including those I haven’t explicitly mentioned there) would be more than enough.
The pricing doesn’t have much to do with someone being into a hobby. My personal guess is that it is more about how much time you actively dedicate to it.
However, someone who has 5-6 sub-$10k cars in their garage is almost definitely very into cars. It is about tinkering with them, racing them, restoring, building project cars, doing car shows, collecting them, etc. Doesn’t have to be all of those at all, just any single one (including those I haven’t explicitly mentioned there) would be more than enough.
The pricing doesn’t have much to do with someone being into a hobby. My personal guess is that it is more about how much time you actively dedicate to it.
They are, but up until the new split version came out I used the same keyboard since ~2001. I picked up a couple more for sub 100$ when i saw them on craigslist/offerup. One for home, one for the office, a spare, and one to lend out.
Like others I credit my first kinesis with saving my career. I was starting to get RSI issues, doctor put me in braces and I showed him the kinesis site to see what he thought about their claims, if any of his other patients had tried. He thought it passed the smell test, I bought one the next day and drove out to the HQ (they are near seattle) and picked it up.
It takes a bit to get used to it, especially if you aren't a strong touch typist. The columner layout is weird at first, the wells are weird at first, the thumb clusters are weird at first. Within a month I was back up to speed and was able to shed my bracers soon after.
Like others I credit my first kinesis with saving my career. I was starting to get RSI issues, doctor put me in braces and I showed him the kinesis site to see what he thought about their claims, if any of his other patients had tried. He thought it passed the smell test, I bought one the next day and drove out to the HQ (they are near seattle) and picked it up.
It takes a bit to get used to it, especially if you aren't a strong touch typist. The columner layout is weird at first, the wells are weird at first, the thumb clusters are weird at first. Within a month I was back up to speed and was able to shed my bracers soon after.
>Aren't those like $500 a pop? Handing out that kind of dough for a keyboard sounds like the opposite of stopping being much into keyboards.
A keyboard can last 20+ years, while a computer around 5 years before it becomes obsolete, more or less. People buy other keyboards because it’s missing something. The kinesis while not perfect is the best keyboard you can buy without building your own from scratch. Nothing comes close, except datahand, but they don’t make those anymore. I stopped buying keyboards after the kinesis.
A keyboard can last 20+ years, while a computer around 5 years before it becomes obsolete, more or less. People buy other keyboards because it’s missing something. The kinesis while not perfect is the best keyboard you can buy without building your own from scratch. Nothing comes close, except datahand, but they don’t make those anymore. I stopped buying keyboards after the kinesis.
Depends? Do you go into eagle-search-mode after you exvacated the keyboard buried under piles of paper once a month? Then 500 dollars is excessive.
Do you type things 8 hours a day? Then 500 USD for a keyboard that lasts you two decades is money well spent, if it makes you happy.
Do you type things 8 hours a day? Then 500 USD for a keyboard that lasts you two decades is money well spent, if it makes you happy.
I'd almost surely have lost my career in software if it weren't for some solution (the solution of which for me was a Kinesis Advantage). I used the PS2 version for a decade, then bought a USB version, which I've used for at least 20 years at this point. I bought both used, but if I'd paid 2x the new price, it would still have been well worth it.
$500 is nothing for a tool that protects your hands and upper body. carpal tunnel, thoracic outlet syndrome, other kinds of RSI are no joke.
When the alternative is sore wrists and a bad back, stopping you from working altogether, the price is justified.
This said, they used to be cheaper.
This said, they used to be cheaper.
I have bought at least twice as many keyboards as this dude - build 15 from scratch plus designed my own low profile hand wired dactyls - and I don’t have a problem.
Perhaps that's normal in the enthusiast communities you frequent, and perhaps it should be normal for members in a society as dependent on typing as modern humans, but you're definitely quite a few standard deviations away from the mean.
Heck, in my engineering office (a bubble if there ever was one) there are only two other people who own more than one keyboard at home or know what a "mechanical" keyboard is, and most of us only have a couple 'special' keyboards. Most of my family and non-work friends have either one or zero, if you don't count on-screen keyboards on phones and tablets or integrated keyboards on laptops (which I don't think should count).
Heck, in my engineering office (a bubble if there ever was one) there are only two other people who own more than one keyboard at home or know what a "mechanical" keyboard is, and most of us only have a couple 'special' keyboards. Most of my family and non-work friends have either one or zero, if you don't count on-screen keyboards on phones and tablets or integrated keyboards on laptops (which I don't think should count).
Yeah, it was a bit tongue in cheek. The thing is that once you try something that isn’t the 20 dollar Walmart keyboard but a good ergonomic keyboard, heck, even a half assed, ergo keyboard - you realize how much better things could be. And down the rabbit hole you go. I’m hoping it’s a phase. But it’s also a fun hobby. Albeit a costly one.
I mean, define "problem", because it sounds like you've got an order of magnitude more keyboards than hands.
I mean, I feel fine! one day I will find the perfect keyboard.
Would love to read your thoughts on that, if you’d ever be up to that.
I’m not much of a writer. I do it mostly to optimize comfort while coding. I did think about posting some pics from my journey and my custom Zmk/qmk setup and key layout. But alas, there are many things to work on besides keyboards.
But if there’s something specific you have in mind I can try to answer here.
But if there’s something specific you have in mind I can try to answer here.
It's like those articles on gaming addiction where they're like "Anthony (27) spends up to 8 hours a week playing an online game, and his parents are worried about him!"
Meanwhile, most respondents to this post use a keyboard daily for 8+ hours to do work that's valued extremely highly.
Have you seen an auto mechanic's toolbox, or carpenter's tool crib?
Using the wrong tool, or even one which is only a few percent less efficient than optimal, is a mistake.
Have you seen an auto mechanic's toolbox, or carpenter's tool crib?
Using the wrong tool, or even one which is only a few percent less efficient than optimal, is a mistake.
I was going to do the Crocodile Dundee "That's not a knife, this is a knife" routine on this one. Taeha Types, Glarses, Hipyo Tech, Switch and Click, et al, would like to have a word.
And I'm typing this on a fully custom, hand soldered, hand lubed, modded Maja V2 from KBDFans and MT3 keycaps from Drop. Easily costs more than all those boards in that post combined. And let's just say this is not my only keyboard.
It’s a neat hobby!
Honestly, all you really need is to lube the switches. That’s biggest benefit. A lubed mechanical switch, even the cheapest generic red, out performs anything off the shelf.
Honestly, all you really need is to lube the switches. That’s biggest benefit. A lubed mechanical switch, even the cheapest generic red, out performs anything off the shelf.
Totally agree. You can take a basic mechanical keyboard from Amazon with hot swap switches, lube them. Maybe do a basic tape mod (just put masking tape on the back of the PCB) and get like 85% of the benefit of a high end keyboard. This is what I've done for the rest of my family's keyboards.
I presume you use the blue painters masking tape? Normal masking tape tends to turn into either horrible goo or powder.
Gasket mount was the biggest difference to me outside of the initial mechanical switch.
Now I have a number of mechanicals (i love, or did..) that I side-eye as they don't have that hearty damp at the end. :/
(i consistently work at 3 desks, only have gasket on one)
Now I have a number of mechanicals (i love, or did..) that I side-eye as they don't have that hearty damp at the end. :/
(i consistently work at 3 desks, only have gasket on one)
> It’s a neat hobby!
The same can be said about heroin.
The same can be said about heroin.
I tried all the profiles that existed up to 2021 or so, and MT3 is really the best keycap profile;
You can't just say that and not post build pics of keyboard. :D
(A couple of Das Keyboards here and only one is even modified, but let's say I'm mechanical-curious. :P )
(A couple of Das Keyboards here and only one is even modified, but let's say I'm mechanical-curious. :P )
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xesqNgwBmZcrss6P6 I should do some better glamour shots to do it justice :)
I love this. I've spent countless hours and hundreds of dollars pursuing an "Ortholinear Ms Natural 4000 with Cherry MX Blues". Custom laser cut outs. Hand wire wrapped. Custom firmware.
It was tons of fun. But at the end of the day, I keep coming back to my Ergodox. I'm just so used to it now after all these years I don't think I could give it up.
It was tons of fun. But at the end of the day, I keep coming back to my Ergodox. I'm just so used to it now after all these years I don't think I could give it up.
Ditto! A couple of random (not even a custom built) mechanical keyboards, plus an Apple one, plus MX Masters (the most popular keyboard, I assume). Even me, I had tried like 10 times more keyboards. And I’m not even obsessed with them, just your average computer nerd with 20+ years of experience and friends, with whom I can swap keyboards, to play with.
...two of which have near-identical layouts, and one of which I'm typing on now!
I have literally dozens of keyboards: mechanical, split, ergonomic, mobile, the list should end but it doesn't... And yet I'm typing on this split, tented, rubber dome Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic. It has tactile keys, and such an extraordinarily low profile that I can type with it on my lap with my wrists pointed down. It has function keys and I don't need a second layer or FN key to access home/end/pageup/pagedown. The spacebar is split so it doesn't bind like many single-body split keyboards. And it's wireless!
This mass-produced, reasonably inexpensive keyboard is not perfect in any way, but it's 90% to perfect in almost every single way.
I have literally dozens of keyboards: mechanical, split, ergonomic, mobile, the list should end but it doesn't... And yet I'm typing on this split, tented, rubber dome Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic. It has tactile keys, and such an extraordinarily low profile that I can type with it on my lap with my wrists pointed down. It has function keys and I don't need a second layer or FN key to access home/end/pageup/pagedown. The spacebar is split so it doesn't bind like many single-body split keyboards. And it's wireless!
This mass-produced, reasonably inexpensive keyboard is not perfect in any way, but it's 90% to perfect in almost every single way.
Love the Sculpt except for the horrible FN keys and the FN switch.
I actually wired a pushbutton to my first Sculpt to get to the media keys. But now I just map the volume controls to a convenient shortcut in KDE.
I've stood staring down that rabbit hole many times, but then I look at my wallet and turn back.
Every few months I go to https://keymacs.com/ and ponder whether my life would be better without all that cash, but with that beauty in my life.
I've built the same keyboard four times over the last three years.
Version 1 used a Teensy++ and Box Pale Blue switches. Version 2 used a Teensy++ and Matias Click switches, and added a bodged-on OLED. This required a completely new PCB design. Version 3 used the same PCB, and some more Matias switches from my parts box, but swapped in a nanoCH32V305 controller using a little interposer adapter board. It was mostly to work the kinks out of the custom firmware for the CH32V305. Version 4 ended up with footprints to use either Alps or MX-footprint switches and either the Teensy or nanoCH32V305. I now have stacks of spare PCBs and plates, just waiting for a better switch than Box White v2.
Version 1 used a Teensy++ and Box Pale Blue switches. Version 2 used a Teensy++ and Matias Click switches, and added a bodged-on OLED. This required a completely new PCB design. Version 3 used the same PCB, and some more Matias switches from my parts box, but swapped in a nanoCH32V305 controller using a little interposer adapter board. It was mostly to work the kinks out of the custom firmware for the CH32V305. Version 4 ended up with footprints to use either Alps or MX-footprint switches and either the Teensy or nanoCH32V305. I now have stacks of spare PCBs and plates, just waiting for a better switch than Box White v2.
Yeah I don’t think any of these folks have that much of an issue. Compare with the people spending thousands or even millions of dollars on little rectangles of printed paperboard and locking them away inside little display cases!
My keyboard journey led me to a committed ltr with a topre realforce rgb, with the dampeners added under the keys. My mouse is a left handed steelseries sensei 10.
Right, 5 relatively cheap keyboards over the course of a few years is perfectly healthy
I'm counting 6 plus a plan to buy another before the end of the year.
yeah, I often have more keyboards than that on my desk at one time. (But as someone who knows Marcin Wichary and Jesse Vincent - I don't have a problem, I am the problem :)
I really don't understand the numpad-less trend of fashionable keyboards. Doing any kind of number entry beyond one or two digits is very annoying without one.
They also don't take up that much space really.
If your keyboard is a portable one you pack with you on trips, I get it. If it lives on a desk, why not splash out the small amount extra to make number entry much easier.
They also don't take up that much space really.
If your keyboard is a portable one you pack with you on trips, I get it. If it lives on a desk, why not splash out the small amount extra to make number entry much easier.
Depends on what you are doing of course.
Cannot speak to the fashion side of it but my original motivator to move to a keypad less was to reduce the distance of the mouse to my typing space. I do not do any type of data entry and rarely type numbers with enough frequency to require it.
Cannot speak to the fashion side of it but my original motivator to move to a keypad less was to reduce the distance of the mouse to my typing space. I do not do any type of data entry and rarely type numbers with enough frequency to require it.
I found a Microsoft Sidewinder keyboard that let you modularly unhook the Num Pad and move it to the left as an option, and having a left side Num Pad has been a wonder for gaming, not just the closer distance between the home row and the mouse, but also a few games I have taken some small advantage from the closer distance for the left hand from "WASD position" to the Num Pad for commands/macros or even the naturalness in games that support it of using the "WASD hand" for Num Pad arrows. I'm now surprised left hand Num Pad isn't more common in keyboard form factors. Modular is particularly handy because there are still mouse-less data entry scenarios where it is nice to have it on right hand because left is busy with Tab and other accelerator keys.
Same for me. The shorter distance seems to put substantially less strain on my wrists and shoulder. Can’t imagine sitting in front of a tenkey for hours at a time now.
While I do miss the number pads it was leading me to bad posture and messing up my back. I like how some keyboards have detached numberpad but they are rare.
Southpaw keyboards (with lefthand numpads) also exist, but they're even more rare.
Yeah I put a wireless numpad to the left of the keyboard when I need it - mainly just for Blender and Excel.
I've used a couple different "1800 compact"-ish keyboards for more than a decade now, where you use NumLock to toggle the right-hand side keys between a numpad and arrow keys + Del/Ins/Home/etc. It gives you most of the keypadless benefit.
First one I had was a CoolerMaster Storm Quickfire TK, now I'm on a Keychron K4V2. I actually liked the TK better, but it's completely worn out and I couldn't seem to find a similar layout on a new keyboard.
First one I had was a CoolerMaster Storm Quickfire TK, now I'm on a Keychron K4V2. I actually liked the TK better, but it's completely worn out and I couldn't seem to find a similar layout on a new keyboard.
I moved the mouse to the left.
Went through a lot, trackballs, 2 mice, narrow keyboards, but the left hand mouse was the one that fixed the biomechanical issues, and they haven't returned in 20+ years.
Went through a lot, trackballs, 2 mice, narrow keyboards, but the left hand mouse was the one that fixed the biomechanical issues, and they haven't returned in 20+ years.
I type in a 2FA code a few times a day and that's enough to justify it for me. Really hate typing in numbers without one
Do you not know how to touch type without looking at the keyboard at all or have you just not learned where the numbers are? Shouldn't you take the time to learn to type correctly instead of relying on moving your entire hand just to type a number?
I truly do not mean to be insulting or anything, but I read comments like this a lot and they really confuse me. I don't need a numpad because I know how to touch type and don't have trouble putting in numbers with the number row without looking, I never used the numpad even when I had a keyboard that had one.
For why I got a board without it, ergonomics. My mouse is where the numpad would've been. Having a shorter keyboard reduces the distance between my hands at the points where I need to use a mouse to about shoulder width, keeping my arms aligned with my shoulders and greatly reduces shoulder impinging issues I was having.
I truly do not mean to be insulting or anything, but I read comments like this a lot and they really confuse me. I don't need a numpad because I know how to touch type and don't have trouble putting in numbers with the number row without looking, I never used the numpad even when I had a keyboard that had one.
For why I got a board without it, ergonomics. My mouse is where the numpad would've been. Having a shorter keyboard reduces the distance between my hands at the points where I need to use a mouse to about shoulder width, keeping my arms aligned with my shoulders and greatly reduces shoulder impinging issues I was having.
For me personally, the number row is far enough away from the home row that my fingers become inaccurate. It's not unlikely that when I reach for 7 I'll hit 6 instead. That's easy enough to correct in normal operation, less so for entering lots of numbers.
Another issue is when doing data entry or 2fa codes, one hand tends to be busy holding something. The number row is basically unusable one-handed as far as I'm concerned.
And for me, mouse distance from the keyboard has never been an issue, because I use them in different scenarios. It's not often that I'm dual wielding them to the point shoulder angles are a concern. If I'm spending hours coding, the amount of mouse usage is going to be minimal.
Another issue is when doing data entry or 2fa codes, one hand tends to be busy holding something. The number row is basically unusable one-handed as far as I'm concerned.
And for me, mouse distance from the keyboard has never been an issue, because I use them in different scenarios. It's not often that I'm dual wielding them to the point shoulder angles are a concern. If I'm spending hours coding, the amount of mouse usage is going to be minimal.
Thinking about it after reading the responses, it makes sense a keypad is faster simply from reduced finger travel. Just for me personally, never so much faster having one would outweigh what I gain removing it.
Also possible I never needed to enter numbers often enough prior to learning to touch type with the num row to incentivize finding a more efficient method and once I was regularly typing a lot of numbers my num row method was sufficient.
Also while I don’t remember the exact timeline, because of my dad’s employer, Thinkpads were one of the main types of computers I used as a kid meaning I spent a lot of time growing up using built in laptop keyboards without numpads.
It’s interesting how random quirks during childhood can result in very different ways of looking at a certain topic later in life.
I definitely did a bad job explaining the kb + mouse thing. Writing code I rarely touch the mouse and if I do its for UI navigation that doesn’t support key strokes or is faster by mouse (usually stuff in a browser) so I’m mostly not using the keyboard at the same time (one exception being ctrl/cmd clicking links). I actually keep a trackpad to the left of my keyboard (I’m left handed) which I generally use to mouse during work with minimal arm movement.
The situation where I was getting shoulder issues was playing video games. Getting a compact keyboard let me move my normal hand position inward to be better aligned while playing without the risk my mouse hits the side of the keyboard. I’ve worked from home for almost a decade using the same desk/monitor/keyboard/mouse setup for work and play and since I never used the keypad anyway it was no big deal to just switch both contexts even if doing so was initially only related to gaming.
Also possible I never needed to enter numbers often enough prior to learning to touch type with the num row to incentivize finding a more efficient method and once I was regularly typing a lot of numbers my num row method was sufficient.
Also while I don’t remember the exact timeline, because of my dad’s employer, Thinkpads were one of the main types of computers I used as a kid meaning I spent a lot of time growing up using built in laptop keyboards without numpads.
It’s interesting how random quirks during childhood can result in very different ways of looking at a certain topic later in life.
I definitely did a bad job explaining the kb + mouse thing. Writing code I rarely touch the mouse and if I do its for UI navigation that doesn’t support key strokes or is faster by mouse (usually stuff in a browser) so I’m mostly not using the keyboard at the same time (one exception being ctrl/cmd clicking links). I actually keep a trackpad to the left of my keyboard (I’m left handed) which I generally use to mouse during work with minimal arm movement.
The situation where I was getting shoulder issues was playing video games. Getting a compact keyboard let me move my normal hand position inward to be better aligned while playing without the risk my mouse hits the side of the keyboard. I’ve worked from home for almost a decade using the same desk/monitor/keyboard/mouse setup for work and play and since I never used the keypad anyway it was no big deal to just switch both contexts even if doing so was initially only related to gaming.
Gaming would definitely be a case where I can see the placement mattering a lot more.
Same here, I find that once I get about 4 keys away from where I index from, my accuracy drops like a rock
Effective tenkey entry _is_ a touch typing skill and it's much faster for number entry than the number row.
Maybe it's because I learned to type in chat rooms and never bothered with the home row thing, but I guess I just don't type enough numbers to have muscle memory for the number row. But the numpad is stupid easy to develop muscle memory for.
One-handed number entry is nice. It makes entering codes and PIN numbers easier. And of course Excel.
This seems like some weird flex about being able to type numbers as effectively on the number row as on a number pad (not sure I believe that). I would rather flex that I never have to move my hand to the mouse...
I get why my comment could come off that way but I truly was not trying to show off or talk down. I theoretically know each person and what works for them differs but it can be hard to comprehend someone else’s preferences when they are opposite of your own (which usually feel perfect).
I was being a bit ignorant but was ok looking dumb in hopes of getting a better understanding of that other perspective. Mainly expressed my own as context for where I was coming from. Like yes, I think my opinion is objectively correct (which leaked in some), but I apologized in advance cause I recognize my doing so is irrational.
To maybe balance out my coming off as superior, until moving to a country with chip and pin where it was regularly necessary, I could not touch type on a keypad. I would screw up embarrassingly often when forced to use one. Even once lost a card to an ATM after typing my pin wrong too many times. I rarely used one and thus lacked the muscle memory while typing numbers with the row is engrained from doing it so often for so long.
I will not however have my good name besmirched by the implication I use a mouse while writing code! I’m an old curmudgeon who’s completely incapable of moving off of vim, I would never soil myself in such a manner. The mouse is used if I’m on MacOS where the UI lacks good keyboard navigation as well as the main situation I was having ergonomic issues during, playing video games.
I was being a bit ignorant but was ok looking dumb in hopes of getting a better understanding of that other perspective. Mainly expressed my own as context for where I was coming from. Like yes, I think my opinion is objectively correct (which leaked in some), but I apologized in advance cause I recognize my doing so is irrational.
To maybe balance out my coming off as superior, until moving to a country with chip and pin where it was regularly necessary, I could not touch type on a keypad. I would screw up embarrassingly often when forced to use one. Even once lost a card to an ATM after typing my pin wrong too many times. I rarely used one and thus lacked the muscle memory while typing numbers with the row is engrained from doing it so often for so long.
I will not however have my good name besmirched by the implication I use a mouse while writing code! I’m an old curmudgeon who’s completely incapable of moving off of vim, I would never soil myself in such a manner. The mouse is used if I’m on MacOS where the UI lacks good keyboard navigation as well as the main situation I was having ergonomic issues during, playing video games.
You have my empathy. Observing myself today I'm using the number row mainly, but switch to the pad for longer strings of digits. You're right, we each do what works for us.
Sincerely,
A curmudgeonly old emacs user
Sincerely,
A curmudgeonly old emacs user
I'm with you on this, but wasn't until a few years ago. I used to prefer number pad and, though I'm pretty good a typing, didn't really learn to use the number row effectively. Now I see no reason to use a number pad unless I'm just doing a ton of numerical entry because I prefer leaving my hands in one place. It's actually annoying me right now that I have to use my mouse to submit this comment :)
This one of the main reasons I switched to an "ortho" keyboard. I use a left-hand modifier key to change uio jkl m,. into a number pad, meaning I can keep my hands near the home position and still crank out numbers just like I do with the number pad. I also kept the actual number pad around too, so I don't have to hit any modifier if I need one-handed number entry.
Situations where I have to type in numbers are usually those where I need one hand to touch paper or a device, so that’s why typing them on a regular keyboard is hard.
Also those keyboards without a number block seem to have bad positions for cursor and other special keys.
Also those keyboards without a number block seem to have bad positions for cursor and other special keys.
* reduces the distance from keyboard home row to mouse
* less desk real estate needed
* many of us aren't doing much number entry at all
* less desk real estate needed
* many of us aren't doing much number entry at all
Also, the number pad is pretty useless to me. I am not a cashier or accountant. The top row is fine fine for programming.
People who work at all with ipv4 networks (devops, sre, sysadmin, netadmin) find themselves entering IP addresses on most regular days.
The numberpad needs abcdef and : to be IPv6 ready.
Or they don't, I've worked on fleets from 10-1,000,000 hosts just use auto configured DNS like a normal person.
If you're using IPs there something wrong with your process.
If you're using IPs there something wrong with your process.
... or you're working in an environment where it's industry norm that production-crucial devices (embedded devices, PLCs etc) have fixed IPs. In steel plant automation for example. What is "normal" may vary dramatically across industries.
Thanks very little for the unwarranted negativity. I'm not sure how you got to the conclusion that "my process" is somehow ignorant of the existence of DHCP and DNS. It most certainly is not.
If the IP addresses usually have the same prefix (or two-three prefixes) you could program that prefix to a simple key combination on many mechanical keyboards.
Even with weird combinations, like holding '1' and pressing '9' to autotype '192.168.0.'.
Even with weird combinations, like holding '1' and pressing '9' to autotype '192.168.0.'.
I just bought a little mechanical keypad kit off alliexpress, nice alu case, bluetooth... I drag it down when I need it, which is mostly for when I'm doing CAD.
I am a sysadmin who thought I wanted a numpad, but it turns out I want the desk space and ability to toss the keyboard to the side more.
Distance to mouse means I either have to stretch my arm in long-term unhealthy positions leading to shoulder, neck, and upper back pain, or offset the keyboard and have the non-keypad not front and center.
Typing numbers on a single row is not an issue for me, so numpad brings me little benefits and significant drawbacks.
Typing numbers on a single row is not an issue for me, so numpad brings me little benefits and significant drawbacks.
Good thing I rarely enter more than a few digits :)
Having a "tenkeyless" means my mouse position is aligned with my shoulder, with a full width keyboard my arm would be rotated constantly, leading to pain.
Having a "tenkeyless" means my mouse position is aligned with my shoulder, with a full width keyboard my arm would be rotated constantly, leading to pain.
> If it lives on a desk, why not splash out the small amount extra to make number entry much easier.
Because it's bad ergonomics, if you're right-handed. It puts the mouse too far to the right.
And I've been using computers for decades but can't recall a single time I ever did numeric "data entry".
That just feels like a relic of when office workers were entering amounts from stacks of printed invoices by hand.
Because it's bad ergonomics, if you're right-handed. It puts the mouse too far to the right.
And I've been using computers for decades but can't recall a single time I ever did numeric "data entry".
That just feels like a relic of when office workers were entering amounts from stacks of printed invoices by hand.
Exactly.
I try to use my keyboard whenever possible, but sometimes reaching to my mouse is just easier. Moving my hand 5 inches is already bad, but having to move it 10-15 inches every time I want to use the mouse is terrible.
And all for what? For having to enter a phone number or credit card number once a month into some form? The tradeoff is not worth it for most people.
As a programmer, I don't need a numpad very often, having long strings of numbers are not very common in my field. Sure, sometimes I need to write numbers, but they are one or two character long, and having them above the keys is better experience as I don't need to move my hand so far.
I try to use my keyboard whenever possible, but sometimes reaching to my mouse is just easier. Moving my hand 5 inches is already bad, but having to move it 10-15 inches every time I want to use the mouse is terrible.
And all for what? For having to enter a phone number or credit card number once a month into some form? The tradeoff is not worth it for most people.
As a programmer, I don't need a numpad very often, having long strings of numbers are not very common in my field. Sure, sometimes I need to write numbers, but they are one or two character long, and having them above the keys is better experience as I don't need to move my hand so far.
There are compact designs that I find reasonable, though I'm sure not everyone will agree, which is fine! I'm using a Leopold fc-980m right now. It and it's variants are my favorite layout that I've used so far.
But I do use my tenkey pretty often and want it around.
But I do use my tenkey pretty often and want it around.
I'm a designer and primarily use my mouse + keyboard shortcuts. Keyboards with numpads push my mouse position further out right, which is actually quite awkward on the shoulder (it has to be twisted outwards). With a tenkeyless board, my shoulders and forearms are straight.
I would consider a separate numpad so it can be moved around if needed, but that need never really comes up for me.
I would consider a separate numpad so it can be moved around if needed, but that need never really comes up for me.
Keyboards with numpads on the opposite side exist. Sometimes called a left handed keyboard or in the mechanical keyboard world, "southpaw".
It sounds bad but if you're using the mouse a lot you should try splitting the board and placing the mouse between the halves. For shoulders it's the best typing and mousing position I can imagine. Although to be honest /didn't/ imagine it, someone whom I admire recommended it and even so it only took on the second attempt. And... it hasn't made me need a numpty yet.
I really don't understand the numpad-less trend of fashionable keyboards.
OK, I've read all the answers so far, in the hope that somebody had told you before, but no!
I don't use the numpad, so it's useless to me. But does it harm? In the case of these keyboards, not so much, except for the reason others have already explained of more distance for the mouse. I can live with it, but my next keyboard will be numpad-less for sure.
If we talk about laptops, that's a different story. Numpads for those are terrible, for me anyway.
They shift the center of the hands, that is between G and H, from the center of the laptop and thus the center of the screen, so your hands are in an unnatural position.
If you center an external wide keyboard, you get the same effect. I don't, but I try to use the GH line... "try" because the push from the mouse always tend to move it to the left.
So now you know, for some of us it's not a question of fashion, but usability :)
OK, I've read all the answers so far, in the hope that somebody had told you before, but no!
I don't use the numpad, so it's useless to me. But does it harm? In the case of these keyboards, not so much, except for the reason others have already explained of more distance for the mouse. I can live with it, but my next keyboard will be numpad-less for sure.
If we talk about laptops, that's a different story. Numpads for those are terrible, for me anyway.
They shift the center of the hands, that is between G and H, from the center of the laptop and thus the center of the screen, so your hands are in an unnatural position.
If you center an external wide keyboard, you get the same effect. I don't, but I try to use the GH line... "try" because the push from the mouse always tend to move it to the left.
So now you know, for some of us it's not a question of fashion, but usability :)
1. I have narrow shoulders, switching to a smaller keyboard has dramatically decreased the amount of shoulder and elbow pain I had.
2. I almost never do number entry, but if I do I have a dedicated number pad.
2. I almost never do number entry, but if I do I have a dedicated number pad.
I prefer a separate numpad. Always have. I like it with the loud clicky switches because I can hear a double tap mistake. You can also then move the main keyboard over and use one hand on the arrows and really blaze through a spreadsheet.
10/10 would recommend a separate numpad. Also good for macros in games or Photoshop or whatever.
10/10 would recommend a separate numpad. Also good for macros in games or Photoshop or whatever.
The real pro move is using a keyboard with the numpad on the left side (southpaw). This decreases distance from normal typing hand position to the mouse while also keeping a numpad and giving you the ability to control the numpad w/ the left hand while mousing around w/ the righthand for data entry in apps like excel.
As a southpaw who uses the mouse on the left side I've never realized the advantage I've had all these years with this setup. I use numpad + mouse all the time and it does save a lot of time. Almost makes up for having to change the default WASD key bindings in every game I've played.
Early in my career, I just moved the mouse to my left hand and kept everything else the same. It was super easy to get used to and easy to replicate whenever I have to use some shared workstation.
Many keyboards allow you to map additional layers, so if you want a numpad, it's pretty trivial to put one in the place your hand already is, instead of moving your hand over.
Ortholinear or orthocolumnar layouts are much easier to touchtype with IME, this is also the layout of a numpad (straight rows, not a "typewriter" layout with staggered rows). I'm not sure why those are not popular, even among "keyboard enthusiasts". Heck, even among gamers: I can play from my home row comfortably, and have plenty of keys on both sides of my hand.
Anyway, I'm currently using an Ergodox EZ and it's very simple: I have a numpad "layer" activated with a key. The keyboard already has the right layout, so activating this layer with the left hand lets me quickly enter a number with my right hand (from the home row).
Anyway, I'm currently using an Ergodox EZ and it's very simple: I have a numpad "layer" activated with a key. The keyboard already has the right layout, so activating this layer with the left hand lets me quickly enter a number with my right hand (from the home row).
As a committed number pad user for years, the solution you've used (and that I have used) has done away with my need for a discreet number pad altogether. I have one layer that turns the right side into a number pad, and another layer that turns it into a VIM cursor control pad. After all these years of typing on an Ergodox in this way and dreaming of a separate number pad, it turns out I had what I wanted all along and can't leave it now.
I cannot stand any keyboard less than a 100% layout. I have 30 years of muscle memory built up, and I'm not about to relearn it.
I don't really have any beef with those who want a smaller keyboard (though I don't really understand it - no way is your desk so small that saving a few inches actually makes a difference). But it is a real bummer that makers of high-end keyboards only cater to that crowd, and don't make nice keyboards that are full size. I would love to get a GMMK Pro, for example - if only it was in the form factor I want.
I don't really have any beef with those who want a smaller keyboard (though I don't really understand it - no way is your desk so small that saving a few inches actually makes a difference). But it is a real bummer that makers of high-end keyboards only cater to that crowd, and don't make nice keyboards that are full size. I would love to get a GMMK Pro, for example - if only it was in the form factor I want.
I switched from a 100% layout to a 34-key keyboard last year. It's not about the desk space at all, it's about never having to move my hands while typing. E.g. instead of reaching for the arrow keys I use a vim navigation layer. Instead of reaching for the number keys -- or, even worse, a numpad way off to the side -- I use a numpad layer. And mod-taps are amazing.
The small size is nice for portability -- my keyboard is split and wireless, so I can easily stick it in my backpack and set it in front of my laptop on a table anywhere. But again, the main benefit of a compact layout for me is ergonomics rather than size.
The small size is nice for portability -- my keyboard is split and wireless, so I can easily stick it in my backpack and set it in front of my laptop on a table anywhere. But again, the main benefit of a compact layout for me is ergonomics rather than size.
It's often said that but I don't agree that removing keys (especially for F1-12 row) is for ergonomics. You can remap F keys to combination even if the keyboard has dedicated F keys. I do that because dedicated keys are sometimes useful for me and I don't care additional spaces by adding a top row. Removing it is for cost saving and portability.
Incorrect! I have worked on a high quality, wooden card table for fifteen years as a professional programmer. I am right-handed and there is no way there is room for a mouse or (as I actually use) a trackpad with a number pad on the keyboard.
I've tried a couple of numberless keyboards and those crowd my mouse area. I am firmly and permanently settled on the Apple keyboard. It is tiny, silent and perfectly reliable.
(In a bizarre side note, I left one out in the rain the other day, a downpour. It still worked.)
I've tried a couple of numberless keyboards and those crowd my mouse area. I am firmly and permanently settled on the Apple keyboard. It is tiny, silent and perfectly reliable.
(In a bizarre side note, I left one out in the rain the other day, a downpour. It still worked.)
Fair enough, I phrased my statement too strongly. Let me restate: I have never ever in my entire life seen a desk which was so small that shaving a few inches off a keyboard would actually be significant. And mind you, that includes shitty call center desks which are built to be just wide enough to cram a computer station in. While it is possible they exist, the fact that I've never encountered even one causes me to doubt that most people who say "my desk is too small" actually have a desk which is too small for a 100% keyboard.
For some of us, the sideways reach / horizontal flexion for the mouse (thumb trackball, in my case) can cause wrist or arm pain.
It's not about desk space, it's about ergonomics.
It's not about desk space, it's about ergonomics.
Or the best of both worlds: put your numpad on another layer at the home row. Press a modifier key with one hand, and enter numbers with the other.
I do this on my Planck, and have aligned the numbers to have both a row of digits, and intersecting 789, have the layout of a conventional number pad on the rows below. I feel like I have more flexibility and control on a keyboard with fewer keys than I have ever used before this!
Classic keyboard is too wide. Holding a mouse next to it puts strain on your shoulder.
I use separate keypad for number entry (not this one exactly, but you get the idea): https://www.amazon.com/MOTOSPEED-Mechanical-Portable-Backlig...
I use separate keypad for number entry (not this one exactly, but you get the idea): https://www.amazon.com/MOTOSPEED-Mechanical-Portable-Backlig...
For the real luxury stuff, there aren't great options for a 95%+ layout. And they're typically more expensive without being as "high quality". The luxury keyboard world is very focused on small form factor.
The only time I miss it is gaming. Flight/Space sims, Factorio, things like that really benefit from a numpad. Otherwise, I'm not typing numbers enough to care.
The only time I miss it is gaming. Flight/Space sims, Factorio, things like that really benefit from a numpad. Otherwise, I'm not typing numbers enough to care.
Some people don't do number entry of any scale that would make them want to take their hands off the home row. I'm one, I have small keyboards everywhere.
My wife on the other hand has a custom keyboard with a num pad on each side so she can num pad with a mouse in her hand.
People have different needs. And different workflows. Not sure why that's news to you.
My wife on the other hand has a custom keyboard with a num pad on each side so she can num pad with a mouse in her hand.
People have different needs. And different workflows. Not sure why that's news to you.
Quite the ratio here. Definitely agree with the masses that 1) almost no one does number entry 2) many touch typers are plenty fast enough on the number row 3) it does take up space really, especially in laptop or directly next to a mouse. I touch type 24 digit numbers at work from the num row, it's fine really.
I don't need a redundant set of numeric keys on the right side of the keyboard for the same reason I don't need a redundant set of vowels on the left side of the board.
For an accountant or someone whose keyboard usage is exceedingly numbers-centric, then sure. But as a default option, it's a space eating waste.
For an accountant or someone whose keyboard usage is exceedingly numbers-centric, then sure. But as a default option, it's a space eating waste.
Less ergonomic for people that don't do a lot of number entry - I'm a dev, not an accountant, I never used the number entry when I had it.
The MS Sculpt (in the article) comes with a number pad as well, I've had it for years and left the number pad in the drawer.
The MS Sculpt (in the article) comes with a number pad as well, I've had it for years and left the number pad in the drawer.
I have a full size Code keyboard at home and a tenkeyless one for work. I went with the TKL because it has a much smaller desk footprint and I end up with a bunch of other stuff taking up space on my desk at work. I can also fit the keyboard in my laptop bag if I need to (admittedly, this has mattered almost never). At home I end up doing enough number entry in personal finance spreadsheets and the like that I feel like I’d miss the numpad, but it’s rarely been an issue for me at work.
The reason people ditch number pads is so that their mouse can be closer to them. Feel what your upper arm is doing as you rotate to get to a mouse that's next to a number pad, that is painful for a lot of people. (If you use your mouse with your left hand, then this doesn't matter.)
Personally, I just have a layer that I activate with my right thumb to turn the m,.jkluio keys into 123456789, so it's like having a number pad, but one that doesn't take up any space.
Personally, I just have a layer that I activate with my right thumb to turn the m,.jkluio keys into 123456789, so it's like having a number pad, but one that doesn't take up any space.
My solution: on all of the keyboards I've programmed (which are all ortholinear or vertical staggered ortholinear), I have a numpad layer. When I hold down F my right hand home row is vim style arrows. D and it's a number pad. S and it's a symbol pad. Common programming delimiters like <>{}() are not on a layer, instead they're hold/tap with my modifier keys on my base layer (Inspired by the space cadet keyboard).
I prefer a separate numpad for RSI reasons. Small keyboard with the mouse next to it and numpad either on the left or on the far side of the rodent.
The last time I used a numberpad was to play Civilisation in the 90s, so I don't really miss it. I hate moving my hands too far from the home row, and it's now a few inches less travel to my mouse when I need it so that's a positive. If I ever had to manually enter a bunch of numbers in a spreadsheet or something I'd either automate it or re-evaluate my life choices.
>The last time I used a numberpad was to play Civilisation in the 90s
Ay! another civ 2 fan! I agree it's painful to play that game without a numpad. I also used it with some tactical shooters to radio compass directions to my team. 'Enemy spotted south south east!' It came in handy.
Ay! another civ 2 fan! I agree it's painful to play that game without a numpad. I also used it with some tactical shooters to radio compass directions to my team. 'Enemy spotted south south east!' It came in handy.
Swap to using your mouse with your left hand and see how much better it is. Moving the mouse closer to where you type helps tremendously.
I particularly hate number pads on laptop keyboards because they put the touch pad right where my wrist occasionally touches as I type.
I've used the old Mac 104 key aluminium wired keyboard for about 10 years now. I originally used it with Linux and now with MacOS at work and my home Windows PC. I've occasionally had minor difficulties with mapping but nothing insurmountable.
I've used the old Mac 104 key aluminium wired keyboard for about 10 years now. I originally used it with Linux and now with MacOS at work and my home Windows PC. I've occasionally had minor difficulties with mapping but nothing insurmountable.
[deleted]
I don't know about his keyboards, but many now have meta switches to turn the ~jkl; block area into a num pad. Then you don't have to move your right hand to input numbers. Left hand holds the meta key; right hand inputs numbers. On my Kinesis Advantage 3, I think the number 1 or 2 meta key on the left side of the board is set up this way.
They do take up a lot of space between the right hand and the mouse.
I sometimes try to go back to full size keyboard but I just can't take it for more than a few hours. It's just too uncomfortable. I'd love to have a keyboard with the numpad on the left side.
If I were a lefty with regards to mousing I'd use a full size keyboard and be happy.
I sometimes try to go back to full size keyboard but I just can't take it for more than a few hours. It's just too uncomfortable. I'd love to have a keyboard with the numpad on the left side.
If I were a lefty with regards to mousing I'd use a full size keyboard and be happy.
As someone that prefers the number pad, I've never seen this mentioned: the enter key is extremely accessible from my (right) mouse hand, it's on the bottom right of the keyboard -- I can't miss it. In a TKL, I would have to pass over the arrow keys on my way to the return carriage key.
The Miryoku layout [1] has a dedicated number layer which turns the left half into a number pad. Practical (once you get used to it) and portable.
[1] https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku
[1] https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku
I don't enter numbers frequently enough that I need one, and I prefer the closer mouse distance of a smaller keyboard.
If the board has QMK/remappable firmware, then they can add a virtual layer that does have a numpad. That's what I did for my Let's Split keyboard.
If the board has QMK/remappable firmware, then they can add a virtual layer that does have a numpad. That's what I did for my Let's Split keyboard.
I don't enter that much numbers tbh, so I don't need a num pad per se. The reason I got rid of it is because I switch between keyboard and mouse a lot, or use them at the same time; the extra distance was just uncomfortable for me.
It's an easy one for me; I'm a lefty, the majority of numpads are utterly useless to me because I am so much slower entering numbers on it with my right hand, than just using the number row, or a separate numpad, or a board with a left-numpad.
I have wide shoulders and like to spread my arms out, so I personally prefer the number pad build into the keyboard. I even like reaching far out for my mouse.
I can assume that people with narrow shoulders would prefer a narrow layout on their desk.
I can assume that people with narrow shoulders would prefer a narrow layout on their desk.
I only use a numpad while doing CAD work. I just bought a separate keypad. Otherwise it's just making the distance from 'home' to your mouse further than it needs to be.
For me, I just straight up never use the number pad. I never integrated it into my workflow. It just takes up unnecessary space for me.
What I hate are those tiny arrow keys on the Mac keyboard
What I hate are those tiny arrow keys on the Mac keyboard
I have a TKL for work and and also use it to game. Having more space for mouse movement is great when playing games. I never used a numpad anyway, so I don't miss it at all.
I've just habitually never learnt to do number entry with a numpad, I kinda envy those people that can.
Also any time my hands leave the home row it feels kinda wrong.
Also any time my hands leave the home row it feels kinda wrong.
Location of pointing device is far more important than numpad. If numpad is needed, I want to put it on the left of keyboard.
I don't have one and it's annoying and not annoying.
Annoying because, yes entering numbers is a problem.
Not annoying because the mouse is closer.
Annoying because, yes entering numbers is a problem.
Not annoying because the mouse is closer.
I learned the 10-key before I learned touch-typing, so I tend to use it a lot. It's just so convenient.
Having a narrower keyboard reduces travel time when switching from mouse to keyboard and back.
My unhealthy relationship with keyboards came to an end as soon as I bought my first Keychron keyboard with a knob (Q-series).
After using this keyboard, I can't imagine ever buying another keyboard without a knob. It's really great to control your audio volume with an appropriate hardware control rather than pressing the same key 15 times in a row like an idiot or fiddling around with the mouse.
You can configure the knob (or any key) to do different things with different key combinations, at the hardware level even (with the Via tool), so you don't have to configure multiple OSes one-by-one to do the same thing. I've configured Alt+Knob rotation to control my screen brightness, which I adjust multiple times per day. You can also configure it to control the zoom, or move the mouse, etc.
The knob also functions as an additional key if you press it downwards. I think by default it is configured to mute (which makes sense, since by default a knob rotation without any other key combination controls the audio volume).
When you go look for keyboards with a knob you won't find many, and the Keychron keyboards (Q-series and Q Pro-series, the latter being both wired and wireless), are really the best there is AFAIK (unless you create your own, perhaps).
After using this keyboard, I can't imagine ever buying another keyboard without a knob. It's really great to control your audio volume with an appropriate hardware control rather than pressing the same key 15 times in a row like an idiot or fiddling around with the mouse.
You can configure the knob (or any key) to do different things with different key combinations, at the hardware level even (with the Via tool), so you don't have to configure multiple OSes one-by-one to do the same thing. I've configured Alt+Knob rotation to control my screen brightness, which I adjust multiple times per day. You can also configure it to control the zoom, or move the mouse, etc.
The knob also functions as an additional key if you press it downwards. I think by default it is configured to mute (which makes sense, since by default a knob rotation without any other key combination controls the audio volume).
When you go look for keyboards with a knob you won't find many, and the Keychron keyboards (Q-series and Q Pro-series, the latter being both wired and wireless), are really the best there is AFAIK (unless you create your own, perhaps).
I have the same experience but with a razer huntsman v2 dampened reds. I modded it (silicone in the bottom, some extra weight (coins in the silicone), extra foam, some rubber, fixed the stabs, lube and force break mod).
I never thought I would abandon my Matias quiet click (which is still the only tactile tactile switch being produced) but here I am typing on a friggin gaming keyboard.
Whenever I move to a house where I can have my computer far away from my family my old 122 key model f will come out though. I spent so much time restoring it that I don't think I could not not use it.
I never thought I would abandon my Matias quiet click (which is still the only tactile tactile switch being produced) but here I am typing on a friggin gaming keyboard.
Whenever I move to a house where I can have my computer far away from my family my old 122 key model f will come out though. I spent so much time restoring it that I don't think I could not not use it.
i use the gmmk pro myself and i really enjoy the knob. i ended up buying a second one just for work bc they weigh a ton and i wasn't going to constantly lug it around
I liked Glorious, and bought 2 of their keyboards. But I feel REALLY burned by the original GMMK.
* The metal shell has very sharp edges, which has damaged every surface it's been on.
* The quality of the cord is very low, and is terribly frayed now
* The silver accents on the edges appear to be very thin, and have worn off and made the whole thing look dingy
I don't think I'll buy another of their products. Maybe the GMMK Pro is better, but it's also a lot more expensive.
* The metal shell has very sharp edges, which has damaged every surface it's been on.
* The quality of the cord is very low, and is terribly frayed now
* The silver accents on the edges appear to be very thin, and have worn off and made the whole thing look dingy
I don't think I'll buy another of their products. Maybe the GMMK Pro is better, but it's also a lot more expensive.
totally understandable and if that happened to me i would also be very averse to trying the pro (but this is my first product with them). thankfully the quality hasn't let me down so far. my only mistake was trying a pre-lubed option on one just for the heck of it and it was def over-lubed.
You know what? I really didn't need to know that there are other high-quality mechanical keyboards with a knob... [just kidding obviously :)]
Anyway, thanks for the info! Unfortunately the GMMK PRO doesn't seem to have the layouts I prefer, but I'll keep an eye on future products!
Anyway, thanks for the info! Unfortunately the GMMK PRO doesn't seem to have the layouts I prefer, but I'll keep an eye on future products!
Can you configure the knob to hold down the left mouse button when you turn it and move either up/right or down/left diagonally?
If yes, it would be great for adjusting parameters in Audio Workstations. If not, well ... I guess I'm out, sadly.
If yes, it would be great for adjusting parameters in Audio Workstations. If not, well ... I guess I'm out, sadly.
I believe so, but I'm not 100% sure as I haven't tried that specific configuration.
See this URL and search for "Programmable Knob":
https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-q6-qmk-custom-mec...
If you go down a bit, you'll see you can program a knob rotation (in one direction or the other) to perform a macro, including key combinations. I'm pretty sure there are also key designations for mouse movements.
That said, you might not be able to adjust the granularity of the mouse movement very well (not sure, really).
See this URL and search for "Programmable Knob":
https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-q6-qmk-custom-mec...
If you go down a bit, you'll see you can program a knob rotation (in one direction or the other) to perform a macro, including key combinations. I'm pretty sure there are also key designations for mouse movements.
That said, you might not be able to adjust the granularity of the mouse movement very well (not sure, really).
Thanks a lot!
I'm seriously considering a QMK kb from them for their ability to hotswap caps in and out. Ideally, I'd like a mechanical kb with silent switches that are nice and quiet.
Might I ask ... What other practical uses are there for knobs besides sound volume?
Their own product page mentions "zooming in/out, adjusting screen brightness, brush size, volume, selecting video clips or photos, or backlight hue". Someone here mentioned adjusting parameters in audio software. I can add that it can also serve as a replacement for the mouse wheel in some cases. Another cool use is controlling the knobs in the MCP panels (i.e. the autopilot controls) of aircraft in flight simulators, if you don't already have better hardware.
But really, in general, anything that would require pressing the same key a variable number of times in a row might benefit from a knob control, especially if it makes sense to do the same thing in some "opposite" direction. And especially if you do that multiple times per day. So it kind of depends on how you use your computer.
But really, in general, anything that would require pressing the same key a variable number of times in a row might benefit from a knob control, especially if it makes sense to do the same thing in some "opposite" direction. And especially if you do that multiple times per day. So it kind of depends on how you use your computer.
You could use it to scrub through videos, scroll pages, zoom in or out, scroll through undo/redo history, etc.
One of the 5 keyboards on your list you used all the way through university, and there's only 2 keyboards after. This feels far from an unhealthy obsession to me.
Dude hasn't even built his own keyboard, definitely not an obsession
And those look like default keycaps. If someone hasn't developed strong opinions on materials and double-shot markings, they're still at the "only on weekends when I've been drinking" stage.
I think obsession requires you lamenting what's wrong with a keyboard you already built and how you're going to fix it all 'next time'.
Although if you can hold forth on how to find old keyboards on eBay, that may also qualify.
Although if you can hold forth on how to find old keyboards on eBay, that may also qualify.
More along the lines of what I was expecting to see here.
I have to admit, I was expecting something different when I saw the title.
Just one of my hand-build, custom switch, aluminium-case, custom-firmware,"artisan" keycap, mechanical keyboards would buy all of those on OPs list, probably twice over.
It's good that OP is keeping a lid on their keyboard buying habits (as with anything), but realistically, OP isn't even in the same _universe_ as the people with the _real_ unhealthy keyboard habits.
There are/were people on the mechanical keyboard sub-reddit whose keyboard collections reach into the tens of thousands of dollars.
Just one of my hand-build, custom switch, aluminium-case, custom-firmware,"artisan" keycap, mechanical keyboards would buy all of those on OPs list, probably twice over.
It's good that OP is keeping a lid on their keyboard buying habits (as with anything), but realistically, OP isn't even in the same _universe_ as the people with the _real_ unhealthy keyboard habits.
There are/were people on the mechanical keyboard sub-reddit whose keyboard collections reach into the tens of thousands of dollars.
Compared to a lot of programmers here, I totally agree (but my parents and girlfriend might disagree).
But gotta generate that clickbait headline ;)
But gotta generate that clickbait headline ;)
I might be biased by spending too much time watching people dive into the hobby of mechanical keyboards, but I'm impressed he found the strenght to not go too far into it.
I'm just surprised that this low level of engagement with keyboards is considered on the "unhealthy" side of the fence. I mean, this is only about 5 keyboards and not even owned at the same time.
Right. My unhealthy relationship with keyboards is that I have 5 of them which I use on a regular basis, but I haven't bothered update to the same version of my custom firmware, so they differ in subtle and maddening ways--but none more maddening than going back to a standard layout.
I'm happy for this person that they so utterly lack an awareness of what an unhealthy relationship actually looks like. Although a small evil part of me wants to send then a mountain of cocaine so they can find out.
I'm happy for this person that they so utterly lack an awareness of what an unhealthy relationship actually looks like. Although a small evil part of me wants to send then a mountain of cocaine so they can find out.
I'll send you my address
I own seven, at the moment. One is an IBM Model M buckling spring keyboard (1983, needs a PS2-to-USB adaptor). Two others I use daily, including the Das Keyboard (Cherry MX Blues) I'm typing this on.
My latest is the Launch Heavy with Kaith Brown keys that arrived yesterday (with a new system). It's replacing a gaming keyboard I've had for more than a decade.
I'm not even "in to keyboards," I've simply been using computer equipment at home for so long that I have them around.
My latest is the Launch Heavy with Kaith Brown keys that arrived yesterday (with a new system). It's replacing a gaming keyboard I've had for more than a decade.
I'm not even "in to keyboards," I've simply been using computer equipment at home for so long that I have them around.
Apologies for the clickbait headline.
My dad worked in IT and used the same keyboard for like 20+ years. Part of me hopes that one day I can find a board that survives for an extended period of time, but I guess modern spending habits and build quality has changed. I have to buy a new phone every 2/3 years for the same reasons.
My dad worked in IT and used the same keyboard for like 20+ years. Part of me hopes that one day I can find a board that survives for an extended period of time, but I guess modern spending habits and build quality has changed. I have to buy a new phone every 2/3 years for the same reasons.
I bought my Unicomp Model M 15+ years ago and it’s still perfectly great.
My current favorite keyboard is a Unicomp Mini M, and my collection includes a couple of IBM Model Ms, which I grew up typing on.
It's basically a slightly nicer mechanical tenkeyless than the original IBM SSK: lighter, slimmer, native USB, and more simultaneous keypresses, but still hefty and solid, with the same buckling spring action and wonderful curved backplate.
Unicomp's brand new Model M keyboards are also quite affordable by custom keyboard standards: $125 for a New Model M, $150 for a buckling spring Mac keyboard, and $150 for the excellent Mini M.
I have some of the more common, modular custom keyboards with the Cherry-compatible switches and all that. By and large, they're more expensive and more work to get into an agreeable actuation force range if you're used to dealing with real buckling spring switches. At the same time, the actuation force curve is never quite right because the 'tactile bump' of such a switch always involves a brief spike in actuation force instead of the regular increase and then collapsing action you get with a buckling spring.
If you've never used a buckling spring keyboard, you may find that you prefer some of the newer switches, especially the ones that don't imitate the 'clickiness' or heaviness of IBM/Unicomp buckling spring switches. But IMHO a brand new buckling spring keyboard is not just cheaper but plain better to type on them any of the more expensive, more 'modern' options.
It's basically a slightly nicer mechanical tenkeyless than the original IBM SSK: lighter, slimmer, native USB, and more simultaneous keypresses, but still hefty and solid, with the same buckling spring action and wonderful curved backplate.
Unicomp's brand new Model M keyboards are also quite affordable by custom keyboard standards: $125 for a New Model M, $150 for a buckling spring Mac keyboard, and $150 for the excellent Mini M.
I have some of the more common, modular custom keyboards with the Cherry-compatible switches and all that. By and large, they're more expensive and more work to get into an agreeable actuation force range if you're used to dealing with real buckling spring switches. At the same time, the actuation force curve is never quite right because the 'tactile bump' of such a switch always involves a brief spike in actuation force instead of the regular increase and then collapsing action you get with a buckling spring.
If you've never used a buckling spring keyboard, you may find that you prefer some of the newer switches, especially the ones that don't imitate the 'clickiness' or heaviness of IBM/Unicomp buckling spring switches. But IMHO a brand new buckling spring keyboard is not just cheaper but plain better to type on them any of the more expensive, more 'modern' options.
I almost feel that people might be surprised if they knew just how extensive and diverse the world of custom keyboards truly is.
I've also had - and collect - an insane amount of keyboards, much like my musician friends collect instruments. I have 46 keyboards currently - mostly TKL mechanical (Cherry/Topre/Kailh/Gateron), a Moonlander, and some Apple, Microsoft and Logitech.
But the only keyboard I actually use for my work is a Lenovo TrackPoint II Bluetooth keyboard (best keyboard ever made IMO).
But the only keyboard I actually use for my work is a Lenovo TrackPoint II Bluetooth keyboard (best keyboard ever made IMO).
I used the first version of Lenovo TrackPoint keyboard for years, before I switched to Tex Yoda 2, which is pretty much a Mechanical Thinkpad keyboard, and never looked back. This brand (Tex) pretty much the only brand that makes high quality keyboards with trackpoints.
I think 46 takes the cake in this whole comment section
Nice to see the Noppoo Choc Mini! I had the same keyboard, got me through 5 years of starcraft 2 and another 5 years of brood war remastered. Had to retire it when I stopped playing starcraft and now use a kinesis advantage360 pro when working/programming.
If you haven't used a split keyboard, I highly recommend it! It feels way more natural typing and less stressful on your wrists. I still use a kinesis freestyle 2 on my desktop pc, good enough for most games too. It feels alien at first but you quickly adapt. It's also not hard to go back and forth between the different types of keyboards.
If you haven't used a split keyboard, I highly recommend it! It feels way more natural typing and less stressful on your wrists. I still use a kinesis freestyle 2 on my desktop pc, good enough for most games too. It feels alien at first but you quickly adapt. It's also not hard to go back and forth between the different types of keyboards.
A white noppoo choc mini was my introduction to mechanical keyboards, I still have it and it works without any issues but it now sits in my cabinet next to my desk. Got it because Reckful (RIP) had one and was doing a lot of typeracer back then and I liked the click/clack sounds it made. Nowadays I'm using a Ducky DK2108 with a set of double-shot PBT keycaps, the keyboard is indestructible and looks brand new, can't justify replacing it.
Took me a solid month do adapt, but really glad I put the time in!!
I've been trying to buy a Kinesis for a few years now, but they always go for 200 USD used in Ebay.
They're very expensive for a keyboard.
However, for a device that I use 50 hours a week -- not so expensive.
If you're a software engineer, you probably use your car a lot less than your keyboard. You _probably_ spent north of $20k for your car and you use it for ~7 hours per week, max?
$350 is nothing for a primary tool of your trade.
However, for a device that I use 50 hours a week -- not so expensive.
If you're a software engineer, you probably use your car a lot less than your keyboard. You _probably_ spent north of $20k for your car and you use it for ~7 hours per week, max?
$350 is nothing for a primary tool of your trade.
Agree but "import fees to latin america, I might not like the switches and there is no market to resell, I don't have that much pain, gym also helps, I think going back and forth between Kinesis and MBP keyboard would be hard, etc" and it stays in that range of "should I".
Also I recently spent a similar value on a sit-stand table and totally regret that purchase - I mostly sit and could always walk outside instead of standing..
Also I recently spent a similar value on a sit-stand table and totally regret that purchase - I mostly sit and could always walk outside instead of standing..
FYI: You can put a low-profile mechanical keyboard on top of your MacBook built-in keyboard and it works great.
I use the Keychron K1 Pro with Brown Gateron switches. It's an 80% (ten-key-less / TKL). I needed this one because I use the right shift key a lot and it has a full-size one whereas the 75% is shortened.
You get used to the slightly different layout very quickly. You might swap back and forth a bit but when you go to bed you will start dreaming about typing on it. You will even enjoy doing typing races just to press the keys.
Another new one just released is the NuPhy Air75V2.
It's a real addiction!
I use the Keychron K1 Pro with Brown Gateron switches. It's an 80% (ten-key-less / TKL). I needed this one because I use the right shift key a lot and it has a full-size one whereas the 75% is shortened.
You get used to the slightly different layout very quickly. You might swap back and forth a bit but when you go to bed you will start dreaming about typing on it. You will even enjoy doing typing races just to press the keys.
Another new one just released is the NuPhy Air75V2.
It's a real addiction!
Love the Keychron. I wanted a mech keyboard without getting lost in the whole world. My one requirement was bluetooth and the Keychron was the cheapest, non-ugly option that had it. TKL, with F-keys but no numpad, is the ideal size for me. Looking at the NuPhy now...
I ordered the NuPhy with Cowberry and Aloe linear switches so I have a more quiet keyboard I can use at night. I am lost :D
I've been very happy with my Keychron K3 pro so far. I'm quite surprised there aren't more options for low profile mechanical keyboards (besides Keychron and Nuphy) as I always though the portability of a keyboard as 1 of the most important features for modern day usage and commuting.
For me its being able to use the trackpad on my MacBook at the same time.
I am on the hunt to find more low-profile models.
I am on the hunt to find more low-profile models.
Nuphy Air75v2 is the best. Looking forward to receive mine in few days!
FYI: The shipping date was pushed back - check the website.
This person might enjoy the Keychron K1. I have used mine for many years. It's a bit less "low profile" than a mac keyboard, but the difference is not enough to require different finger movement - I get used to the different height in minutes.
https://www.keychron.com/collections/all-keyboards/products/...
https://www.keychron.com/collections/all-keyboards/products/...
I went from a low profile scissor switch keyboard to a K5 Pro and, while it's not the same, I'm also happy with the outcome.
There's still some relearning because key placement is slightly different (sometimes I hit spacebar instead of left alt/command).
Also, I think the MX Keys that he likes is flat (ortholinear?) and the K-series has a slight stagger to the keys (but I also didn't find it to be an issue).
There's still some relearning because key placement is slightly different (sometimes I hit spacebar instead of left alt/command).
Also, I think the MX Keys that he likes is flat (ortholinear?) and the K-series has a slight stagger to the keys (but I also didn't find it to be an issue).
I think that keychron is the one I woulda got if I hadn't gone for a filco convertible tkl
https://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/filco-convertible-2-tenk...
https://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/filco-convertible-2-tenk...
Thanks for the recommendation, the keychron K1 is definitely something I've been looking at closely. I've heard some complaints about the bluetooth connectivity not being great.
They recently announced a budget friendly version the C3 Pro that's wired (USB-C) only that looks like it might actually satisfy my requirements.
They recently announced a budget friendly version the C3 Pro that's wired (USB-C) only that looks like it might actually satisfy my requirements.
The K1 has a "cable mode" in addition to "bluetooth", I have been using it with a wire since the beginning
The author should try a keychron- variety of switch/key profiles available-including low profile, supports Bluetooth and cable, and Mac and windows key layout, via subtle little side switches, cones with platform-specific spare keys for CMD/option etc. Comes in a variety of sizes and the newest ones are fully programmable, should you want to go down that particular rabbit hole. The build quality is also solid.
> Because it's compatible with multiple OS's I use it for work on my company issued Macbook and personal usage on my own Linux machine.
Underrated line in the article. I have such a problem selecting keyboards because I use MacOS and Linux. I have the same problem with KVMs as the two use two different ways of outputting a screen. I exclusively use Keychrons at this point for both gaming and work.
Underrated line in the article. I have such a problem selecting keyboards because I use MacOS and Linux. I have the same problem with KVMs as the two use two different ways of outputting a screen. I exclusively use Keychrons at this point for both gaming and work.
?
Just use any normal keyboard. Do nothing at all to configure the layout on Linux, and on Mac, configure the OS to swap the command and option keys for that keyboard.
Just use any normal keyboard. Do nothing at all to configure the layout on Linux, and on Mac, configure the OS to swap the command and option keys for that keyboard.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who had that jump out to them. I don't think I've ever had any OS specific functionality with a keyboard. Looking at the USB HID scan code list I can't even think what I'd want out of a keyboard that isn't already covered.
The built-in macOS functionality for remapping modifier keys so that 'PC' keyboards behave as expected in macOS is relatively new, so maybe longstanding macOS users are less aware of it. But third party apps did have the capability to retrofit that into macOS before Apple added that feature, as well.
I am a longstanding Mac OS X user that wishes Linux had an easy way to remap modifier keys. For now, I've settled on having keyd installed:
/etc/keyd/default.conf
[ids]
*
[main]
leftalt = layer(control)
leftcontrol = layer(alt)
I wish I could remap keys in a universal way to be macOS-like on Linux, because it's really nice to be able to have GNU readline-like shortcuts and CUA-like shortcuts at the same time in every text field. Just swapping the modifiers doesn't feel worth doing in my case since I don't really have a muscle memory problem.
I was genuinely hoping to see something weird like how you designed your custom PCBs and made a simple ergonomic keyboard for yourself. How you transitioned the mortal plane into a weird keyboard realm.
For context: https:/www.youtube.com/@BenVallack/
The channel is about pure keyboard obsession. Please share it with your family to show them that you are no where obsessed with the keyboards!
For context: https:/www.youtube.com/@BenVallack/
The channel is about pure keyboard obsession. Please share it with your family to show them that you are no where obsessed with the keyboards!
I recently got a Keychron Q11 split keyboard. The quality of the keyboard is so good that I think the people involved in making these keyboards must be truly keyboard lovers.
The Q and Q Pro series are a dream come true.
Loving my Q3. Stock it's fine, but after I modding it quite extensively (new switches, keycaps, tape mod, foam, etc.) it's been amazing!
If I ever went back down the split keyboard route, I think I'd have to go all the way and get something ergonomic like the ergodox boards.
Are the keys less squeaky now? I've got an older Keychron, and it's great ... so long as I'm wearing headphones.
I have a Keychron Q11 as well. I don't notice any key squeaking. It's a great keyboard, no serious flaws from what I can tell so far. My biggest issue with this keyboard is it doesn't have a tenting kit from the manufacturer.
All my best keyboards have been given to me. All my worst keyboards have been purchased by me.
My first job was very much a garage shop web hosting business so I just rummaged through the boxes and found an old IBM model M (not realizing its later cult status).
At another later job I just grabbed a full length apple keyboard with numpad that was laying around. During boring times at that job I placed in top 20 at typeracer with that keyboard.
Whenever I tried to be like other nerd friends and buy a cool nerdy clicketyclack keyboard I always ended up disappointed.
Now the last 15 years or so I mostly used Thinkpad keyboards and they're just fine.
My first job was very much a garage shop web hosting business so I just rummaged through the boxes and found an old IBM model M (not realizing its later cult status).
At another later job I just grabbed a full length apple keyboard with numpad that was laying around. During boring times at that job I placed in top 20 at typeracer with that keyboard.
Whenever I tried to be like other nerd friends and buy a cool nerdy clicketyclack keyboard I always ended up disappointed.
Now the last 15 years or so I mostly used Thinkpad keyboards and they're just fine.
I never understood the Mac keyboards. For me a are a sensory deprivation chamber.
I am wielding a ROG Falchion Green Cherry MX Gaming Keyboard. Is a backlit keyboard with good feedback and sound. But there is a hollow sound to the keys that is not ideal.
My favorite keyboard I cannot use because is not backlit.
The CoolerMaster Storm QuickFire Rapid - Tenkeyless.
The keys are so smooth to the touch and there is a slight high pitch to the keys action sound. Very solid action. My precious.
I love it. I cannot use it in the dark. It is a discontinued model. :(
> I never understood the Mac keyboards
I actually prefer them to most keyboards. I wish I could make the full size one tenkeyless, not a fan of the cramped smaller one.
I actually prefer them to most keyboards. I wish I could make the full size one tenkeyless, not a fan of the cramped smaller one.
I wish I could turn the smaller one into a split keyboard.
> My favorite keyboard I cannot use because is not backlit
Out of curiosity, why not?
Out of curiosity, why not?
Because they are all compact keyboards so some of keys have multiple functions and not in the usual places so at night I don't want to turn of the lights.
My favorite keyboards are not backlit, and I was frustrated to have to put them aside after sunset. I ended up getting a small battery powered light and attaching it to the bottom of my desk. It shines on my lap, and lets me use non-backlit keyboards without any other lights on.
Is that an option for you?
Is that an option for you?
I was considering putting a light but my desk right now resembles a wall panel from the movie Brazil. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dht_3NziwSw Is hard to find the middle ground between clutter and chaos.
I put it on the bottom edge of my monitor, on the back, just peeking out enough to illuminate my keyboard.
I would go for the apple magic keyboard, except for that arrow key cluster. Had a macbook with those once and hated it.
Good that the author pointed out the inability of removing keys to clean with the Logi MX. I'd have sprung for that but dislike anything that is potentially going to become garbage.
Good that the author pointed out the inability of removing keys to clean with the Logi MX. I'd have sprung for that but dislike anything that is potentially going to become garbage.
I used UV cure glue to put small dots on the little arrow keys. It totally solved the problem for me. Turns out my issue was that I couldn't be sure my fingers were on them and which one. The raised dots worked.
Hey keyboard and computer enthusiast! I need your help!
Any other keyboard I've ever tried hurts my wrists, arm, and back, and causes me pain except the "Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000". However they were discontinued years ago. :( I've been buying up used ones and learning how to disassemble and repair the ones I have the best I can, but my skills are limited.
If anyone has any (unopened) ones or knows of good replacements or how to make a new replacement (with same layout). I'd be incredibly grateful.
Most alternatives don't really have the wrist/angle support which is the #1. Then the arrow keys/home/pgup pgdn keys is next most important, and lastly the numpad and F1-F12 row keys. I don't care about special top row buttons or any of the 'special' keys on it.
Also, before people mention it, the Arisu or Feker Alice layout keyboards is nothing at all like the same wrist/angle support, it's basically just a split keyboard. :/ Most suggestions have missed the whole point of wrist/angle support being the issue.
I don't mind it being mechanical or anything so long as it's the basically the same layout/angle as the Microsoft ergo 4000. The replacement 'Microsoft ergonomic keyboard' non 4000 is 'okayish' but not as good as 4000. Other than those 2, I've never found one even remotely close to my needs. Thanks! <3
Any other keyboard I've ever tried hurts my wrists, arm, and back, and causes me pain except the "Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000". However they were discontinued years ago. :( I've been buying up used ones and learning how to disassemble and repair the ones I have the best I can, but my skills are limited.
If anyone has any (unopened) ones or knows of good replacements or how to make a new replacement (with same layout). I'd be incredibly grateful.
Most alternatives don't really have the wrist/angle support which is the #1. Then the arrow keys/home/pgup pgdn keys is next most important, and lastly the numpad and F1-F12 row keys. I don't care about special top row buttons or any of the 'special' keys on it.
Also, before people mention it, the Arisu or Feker Alice layout keyboards is nothing at all like the same wrist/angle support, it's basically just a split keyboard. :/ Most suggestions have missed the whole point of wrist/angle support being the issue.
I don't mind it being mechanical or anything so long as it's the basically the same layout/angle as the Microsoft ergo 4000. The replacement 'Microsoft ergonomic keyboard' non 4000 is 'okayish' but not as good as 4000. Other than those 2, I've never found one even remotely close to my needs. Thanks! <3
> Most alternatives don't really have the wrist/angle support which is the #1.
Hear hear!
Adesso makes an ergonomic keyboard similar to the discontinued MSFT series.
I also have found that the Goldtouch V2 keyboard can be adjusted for a variety of human geometries using the split and the ball joint. https://shop.goldtouch.com/products/goldtouch-v2-adjustable-...
Hear hear!
Adesso makes an ergonomic keyboard similar to the discontinued MSFT series.
I also have found that the Goldtouch V2 keyboard can be adjusted for a variety of human geometries using the split and the ball joint. https://shop.goldtouch.com/products/goldtouch-v2-adjustable-...
That adesso is easily the closest thing I've seen! Thanks for that! I hadn't come across that one before!
Do you know if the 'front' can raise up like the 4000 can? Like this https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71FzIG1rqBL.jpg
Do you know if the 'front' can raise up like the 4000 can? Like this https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71FzIG1rqBL.jpg
This is what I personally use: https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/. The angle and pitch are totally customizable. Fantastic highly modifiable keyboard.
On the other hand, I've tried many keyboards, including the ErgoDox and Kinesis Advantage, with the latter being the most comfortable for me. While the Moonlander boasts impressive customizability, I found its untypical angle of the thumb cluster to be a drawback for my personal typing experience.
Given its premium price point and the extended delivery time from Taiwan (mine took almost a month to come to the UK), I'd strongly recommend trying it out before making a purchase to ensure it meets your ergonomic needs and avoids potential disappointment.
Given its premium price point and the extended delivery time from Taiwan (mine took almost a month to come to the UK), I'd strongly recommend trying it out before making a purchase to ensure it meets your ergonomic needs and avoids potential disappointment.
It arrived in less than one week for me, and I purchased relatively recently.
As someone who used to daily a Microsoft Sculpt and has tried the Moonlander... I would say it is much much more specific in who it is good for out of the box. If you want tenting but also don't have giant hands, it's not a good fit imo.
I don't think my hands are tiny, but because the thumb cluster is used as the tenting leg, in order to achieve a comfortable tenting angle, I had to give up using most of the thumb cluster because I simply couldn't reach it without moving my hand, which defeats the point. There are solutions to work around this (namely the tripod pucks or printing additional tenting legs), but it feels like a fundamental design flaw with the moonlander that should not be there given the premium price.
Also as an aside, I hate that they went with rattly as hell costar stabs for the red thumb keys, they're awful on a keyboard in this price bracket.
I'd really recommend something like the lily58 (there is a variant called the lulu that has tenting legs available) or if you're feeling daring with going smaller, the corne over the moonlander.
I don't think my hands are tiny, but because the thumb cluster is used as the tenting leg, in order to achieve a comfortable tenting angle, I had to give up using most of the thumb cluster because I simply couldn't reach it without moving my hand, which defeats the point. There are solutions to work around this (namely the tripod pucks or printing additional tenting legs), but it feels like a fundamental design flaw with the moonlander that should not be there given the premium price.
Also as an aside, I hate that they went with rattly as hell costar stabs for the red thumb keys, they're awful on a keyboard in this price bracket.
I'd really recommend something like the lily58 (there is a variant called the lulu that has tenting legs available) or if you're feeling daring with going smaller, the corne over the moonlander.
That's definitely an interesting one I hadn't seen before.
I game a lot, so some of the features like the offset ASD(though this might be better?) and lack of bigger caps/tabs/shift/ctrl are definitely concerns for me here. I'll definitely keep it on my shirt list of keyboards to maybe try out one day.
I game a lot, so some of the features like the offset ASD(though this might be better?) and lack of bigger caps/tabs/shift/ctrl are definitely concerns for me here. I'll definitely keep it on my shirt list of keyboards to maybe try out one day.
I game a lot too. You can remap everything on that keyboard from a simple UI tool, and even toggle between "layers" for things like custom profiles for each game you might play (and any macros you want to assign to specific keys). It did take me a couple of days to get used to the layout before I started to surpass my previous wpm, but it was worth the investment.
The 4000 is by far my favorite keyboard and I also have a small stockpile. Over the years I've tried dozens of alternatives and never found anything with the appropriate wrist/hand angle. Everything about it is perfect for me.
If I were wealthy I'd try having one commissioned. I'm sort of terrified that one day I'll be forced to use something else.
I tried many of the adjustable modern split keyboards that come in two halves (and are missing 10-key) but absolutely despise having half of my keyboard move around. The trend of keyboards cut in half doesn't make any sense to me. I never look at the thing and I expect every key to be exactly where I left it.
If I were wealthy I'd try having one commissioned. I'm sort of terrified that one day I'll be forced to use something else.
I tried many of the adjustable modern split keyboards that come in two halves (and are missing 10-key) but absolutely despise having half of my keyboard move around. The trend of keyboards cut in half doesn't make any sense to me. I never look at the thing and I expect every key to be exactly where I left it.
I've considered looking into getting like a custom order of 100 (or maybe 1000) units keyboards made similar-ish to the 4000. And trying to sell them.
I think there is enough of us. I just have my fingers crossed that microsoft eventually makes a 'surface' brand version similiar enough to the 4000. or I find a way to properly replicate/replace the 4000s in some custom way.
I think there is enough of us. I just have my fingers crossed that microsoft eventually makes a 'surface' brand version similiar enough to the 4000. or I find a way to properly replicate/replace the 4000s in some custom way.
Try the Kinesis Advantage II or 360 (with low-force keys):
It has an embedded number pad, so you just toggle "keypad" and use the same keys.
https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2-lfq/
It has an embedded number pad, so you just toggle "keypad" and use the same keys.
I used this for 15 years and now within 5 minutes it gives me crippling RSI. Now, going from an ergo keyboard with 35g keys to this it's obvious just how much effort it takes to press the keys. Either way gutted I can't use this any more .
I use the Apple keyboard. It is very, very low profile. I have had wrist trouble but not in this context.
FYI, there's a somewhat related topic at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37630804 concerning the difficulties of editing text on a mobile under the heading Text editing on mobile: the invisible problem.
As is my usual wont, I had a long rave about such matters but one of the points I raised that may interest those here was the lack of Bluetooth keyboards, especially the more portable types with good mechanical switches.
After posting, I thought I'd better do a updated search to see if the market had improved and I've just discovered a complete range of keyboards of which I was unaware, namely NuPhy https://nuphy.com/ (perhaps I'm a member of the mushroom club and the last to know). Anyway, it seems the market has improved significantly in the last year or so since I last looked.
There's good range of KBs with combo Bluetooth 5.0 + wireless + USB-C cable + hot-swappable keys/key types. Some reviews seem favorable but I'd be interested to hear experiences from others who've actually used them.
As is my usual wont, I had a long rave about such matters but one of the points I raised that may interest those here was the lack of Bluetooth keyboards, especially the more portable types with good mechanical switches.
After posting, I thought I'd better do a updated search to see if the market had improved and I've just discovered a complete range of keyboards of which I was unaware, namely NuPhy https://nuphy.com/ (perhaps I'm a member of the mushroom club and the last to know). Anyway, it seems the market has improved significantly in the last year or so since I last looked.
There's good range of KBs with combo Bluetooth 5.0 + wireless + USB-C cable + hot-swappable keys/key types. Some reviews seem favorable but I'd be interested to hear experiences from others who've actually used them.
I bought into NuPhy with their original release, the NUTYPE F1, and had a terrible experience with them—both the product and customer service was defective.
The keyboard I received had many quality issues, and others online reported the same. When contacting support, they required many back and forth emails, asking for more photos and videos each time. After weeks of this, I got this from support, “Sorry for the inconvenience. Follow the return process, customers need to return the products to us firstly and pay for the return freight. We'll give you refund when we got your return goods after checked,there's really with quality problem.”
This is after sending both photos/videos of the obvious defects and quality issues… and return shipping would be back to Hong Kong.
In the end, I just took this as a learning experience to never back a “kickstarter” product again.
Some additional insight:
-preordered keyboard: 8/2020
-received keyboard: 11/2020
-20% discount offer on new purchases: 11/2020
-keycap update and new product promoted: 12/2020
In summary, I waited 3 months to get charged an extra 20% for an inferior product that got discontinued a month later. I cannot recommend NuPhy.
The keyboard I received had many quality issues, and others online reported the same. When contacting support, they required many back and forth emails, asking for more photos and videos each time. After weeks of this, I got this from support, “Sorry for the inconvenience. Follow the return process, customers need to return the products to us firstly and pay for the return freight. We'll give you refund when we got your return goods after checked,there's really with quality problem.”
This is after sending both photos/videos of the obvious defects and quality issues… and return shipping would be back to Hong Kong.
In the end, I just took this as a learning experience to never back a “kickstarter” product again.
Some additional insight:
-preordered keyboard: 8/2020
-received keyboard: 11/2020
-20% discount offer on new purchases: 11/2020
-keycap update and new product promoted: 12/2020
In summary, I waited 3 months to get charged an extra 20% for an inferior product that got discontinued a month later. I cannot recommend NuPhy.
Thanks. Very useful knowledge. Seems a risky proposition at this stage (and I'd prefer to buy from a local retailer who had them in stock so there'd be no mucking about if I had to return it).
All that glitters is not gold! :-(
All that glitters is not gold! :-(
Keychron also has many keyboards with Bluetooth + USB-C cable -- the ones with "Pro" in the name, I think. I am personally a fan of the "Q" or "Q Pro" series (because of the knob), but there are other lines.
I think all of them have hot-swappable keys and many of them even have hot-swappable mechanical switches, I think. In most of their keyboards, all the keys (and key combinations) are fully configurable at the hardware level as well.
I can vouch for the quality of the ones I have (Q3), but mine don't have Bluetooth so I don't know how well that works.
I think all of them have hot-swappable keys and many of them even have hot-swappable mechanical switches, I think. In most of their keyboards, all the keys (and key combinations) are fully configurable at the hardware level as well.
I can vouch for the quality of the ones I have (Q3), but mine don't have Bluetooth so I don't know how well that works.
Ah, thanks for that. Just had a quick look at the site, seems I've much reading to do.
Oh, based on your previous comment, I should also say that the one I have is really heavy, which is not great for carrying around everywhere. Apart from that I really like it.
Right, noted. But I've multiple uses. I'm sick of the junk KBs I have now so I need to replace them, so it's all useful info. And for my PCs I want heavy KBs (I used to own one of the heavy IBM XT/AT ones and loved it).
The Bluetooth/Android aspect is only a subset matter that arose here as a result of the other HN story re horrible text entry on phones. Thanks again.
The Bluetooth/Android aspect is only a subset matter that arose here as a result of the other HN story re horrible text entry on phones. Thanks again.
I have a Logitech MX Keys too. Though when I got it I also had some concerns about how charging it would be a odd experience, after 1.5 years or so of usage I just have to charge it in like each 3 months - and still you get to use it while it's charging. I don't use the backlight feature so I guess for other people that time between charging can be shorter.
I haven't had the need to disassemble it for cleaning so I use a small brush to remove crumbs and stuff. Sometimes I too feel that it is large, but still the numpad is convenient. The alternative would be a 'compact' design but I don't like how they cram the Enter key in a single row and make the up and down keys half of the height of a normal key.
My complain against it is its privative nature - with Linux, you can't use the screen brightness keys unless you install something like Logiops or Solaar. Alas I've found Logips a bit buggy so when you're running it the mouse wheel becomes really glitchy so you have to restart it.
I'd like it to have one of these wheels some keyboards have to control volume or something else, a second Meta key and that one could make it so when powering it up it started with no backlight.
I haven't had the need to disassemble it for cleaning so I use a small brush to remove crumbs and stuff. Sometimes I too feel that it is large, but still the numpad is convenient. The alternative would be a 'compact' design but I don't like how they cram the Enter key in a single row and make the up and down keys half of the height of a normal key.
My complain against it is its privative nature - with Linux, you can't use the screen brightness keys unless you install something like Logiops or Solaar. Alas I've found Logips a bit buggy so when you're running it the mouse wheel becomes really glitchy so you have to restart it.
I'd like it to have one of these wheels some keyboards have to control volume or something else, a second Meta key and that one could make it so when powering it up it started with no backlight.
A long time ago at work, I was given a Logitech K750. It is powered by solar cells which charge an internal battery. It works so well, I don't understand why there aren't more solar powered keyboards.
I ended up buying the same keyboard for home and I really enjoy typing on it. My only complaint is that it's difficult to remove the keycaps for cleaning and some dust somehow got inside and I can see it on the little solar panels.
Typing preferences are very subjective, but I've grown to really enjoy working on this keyboard. I've used it so much that the texture has pretty much worn off of most of the keys and I'm starting to lose the printed letters on the key caps. I've thought about buying a few replacements and storing them because no product is sold forever...
I ended up buying the same keyboard for home and I really enjoy typing on it. My only complaint is that it's difficult to remove the keycaps for cleaning and some dust somehow got inside and I can see it on the little solar panels.
Typing preferences are very subjective, but I've grown to really enjoy working on this keyboard. I've used it so much that the texture has pretty much worn off of most of the keys and I'm starting to lose the printed letters on the key caps. I've thought about buying a few replacements and storing them because no product is sold forever...
I really liked my K750 too, but when I switched to LED lights it stopped charging. I got by for awhile setting it in front of a window a few times a week. Once at night, without a charge and in desperation, I stupidly I set it on top of a lamp with an incandescent bulb, promptly forgot about it, and melted one of the keys.
I owned one of these, and decided to omit it from the list (it came before my first Cherry board).
It was a really good board. But I remember it having quite a lot of flex in the plastic. My letters wore off pretty quickly and frustratingly the solar cells eventually died and the thing stopped charging all together.
It was a really good board. But I remember it having quite a lot of flex in the plastic. My letters wore off pretty quickly and frustratingly the solar cells eventually died and the thing stopped charging all together.
At some point, I think they changed the number of rubber feet from 4 to 6 to help with the flexing. It's still too flexy though.
> the solar cells eventually died
Mine stopped charging too but in my case it was because the little rechargeable battery had wore out. There's a battery tray on the back that you slide out and replace it and it's been working ever since for me. If the solar panels themselves eventually die, then maybe that's why there aren't more of these on the market.
> the solar cells eventually died
Mine stopped charging too but in my case it was because the little rechargeable battery had wore out. There's a battery tray on the back that you slide out and replace it and it's been working ever since for me. If the solar panels themselves eventually die, then maybe that's why there aren't more of these on the market.
I think I've had it for a similar amount of time and I've definitely had to start charging it up a lot more frequently recently (compared to when I first started using it).
I got excited thinking a keyboard named "choc mini" actually used "choc mini" switches. AKA "low" low profile switches.
https://mkultra.click/choc-mini-low-low-profile-switches/
Alas the search continues
https://mkultra.click/choc-mini-low-low-profile-switches/
Alas the search continues
I use some USB Lenovo keyboard that's the most like a Model M in terms of layout but plan to get a New Model M from Unicomp for the superior switches
https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/NEW_M
https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/NEW_M
I got to start with Victor keyboards, which was a little bit of a "silver spoon". The only thing that was ever better than a model M.
Sometime around '97 I got a bunch of real Model M's from a school; spent a while refurbishing up a bunch of them, and then used that stack for like 20 years. They lived an average of 3yr under my hands.
Since then i use unicomp "new model M". This one has been going stong for 2+yr now, expect it to start losing function soon. Tried a couple different logitech "mechanical" and beat them to death in under a year.
My stuff would last longer if i used one of those "keyboard condom" things but those are worse than using a $10 disposable "flexible" bodyless thing, anyway. the cure is worse than the disease.
Sometime around '97 I got a bunch of real Model M's from a school; spent a while refurbishing up a bunch of them, and then used that stack for like 20 years. They lived an average of 3yr under my hands.
Since then i use unicomp "new model M". This one has been going stong for 2+yr now, expect it to start losing function soon. Tried a couple different logitech "mechanical" and beat them to death in under a year.
My stuff would last longer if i used one of those "keyboard condom" things but those are worse than using a $10 disposable "flexible" bodyless thing, anyway. the cure is worse than the disease.
> They lived an average of 3yr under my hands.
How can you destroy a Model M?
How can you destroy a Model M?
Beating someone to death?
My m13 has lasted 20 years - though it needs a new cable because of flakey plastic.
My m13 has lasted 20 years - though it needs a new cable because of flakey plastic.
Ashtray got full.
psoriasis on my hands, associated clawlike fingernails. i bleed and shed a lot of skin.
>Since then i use unicomp "new model M". This one has been going stong for 2+yr now, expect it to start losing function soon. Tried a couple different logitech "mechanical" and beat them to death in under a year.
I had one of those for a bit but it had constant firmware issues. usb dropouts and resets that required a full power-off. had to return it.
was an OK repro as far as the typing feel goes, though.
I had one of those for a bit but it had constant firmware issues. usb dropouts and resets that required a full power-off. had to return it.
was an OK repro as far as the typing feel goes, though.
Did you learn typing on a manual typewriter as I did? So far my Redragon K552 has held up pretty well for 3+ years.
I used a K552 for a while. Definitely a decent keyboard for the price. Just be warned that, like going from membrane to mechanical, once you upgrade there's no going back. I upgraded to a TKL GMMK with Kailh BOX White switches, and now the K552 feels terrible because my standards have been raised so much higher.
Unhealthy relationship with keyboards? Comparing with the r/MechanicalKeyboards or r/ErgoMechKeyboards people this relationship is more like divorced...
I added python binding and ended up being on of the devs for https://github.com/elalish/manifold because OpenSCAD is too slow for my modeling (I am quite impatient). Optimizing my keyboard for months with more than 5 complete rebuilds to optimize my design (looks like this: https://i.redd.it/xtf0f54mt7ya1.jpg), and is afraid of open sourcing it because my code looks too bad :(
I added python binding and ended up being on of the devs for https://github.com/elalish/manifold because OpenSCAD is too slow for my modeling (I am quite impatient). Optimizing my keyboard for months with more than 5 complete rebuilds to optimize my design (looks like this: https://i.redd.it/xtf0f54mt7ya1.jpg), and is afraid of open sourcing it because my code looks too bad :(
Hey how do you like the tented thumb cluster? Have you used the boards with untended one? not Ergodox but something with an actually decent thumb cluster?
Also - open source it!! Ppl will be def very thankful and the code quality is secondary VS not open sourcing (if you were so inclined).
I am def very interested in that cluster design - how you managed it on PCB level
Also - open source it!! Ppl will be def very thankful and the code quality is secondary VS not open sourcing (if you were so inclined).
I am def very interested in that cluster design - how you managed it on PCB level
I only tried redox, I think a tented thumb cluster does feel better comparing with the untended one. Not sure about other kinds of thumb clusters though.
It is currently written in Python, I guess I should port it to js because we have a online js demo.
It is purely 3D printed and handwired, I did not make a PCB for it because it is hard to generate the PCB in a parameterized way. I think if you want to make a PCB, you can do it with some kind of flexible PCB with a socket (like those monitor wires)
It is currently written in Python, I guess I should port it to js because we have a online js demo.
It is purely 3D printed and handwired, I did not make a PCB for it because it is hard to generate the PCB in a parameterized way. I think if you want to make a PCB, you can do it with some kind of flexible PCB with a socket (like those monitor wires)
That's funny, I started a CadQuery alternative in Rust after I created a keyboard and wanted a case for it. Crazy what a simple input device will make you learn!
Big fan of the MS Sculpt myself. I like the "MacBook-esque" low profile keys.
The only downsides are:
- I've had keycaps fall off after a couple of years and they're almost impossible to get back on (for me at least). The second time this happened I realised it had a 3 year warranty though, so got a replacement.
- It requires a dongle rather than Bluetooth, and if you lose the dongle, you're screwed, as they're paired in the factory and can't be reconfigured.
Are there any other similar keyboards worth considering? Must be wireless, low profile keys and split layout. The Logitech K860 looks alright but I don't need or want the numpad really (I like having my Magic Trackpad closer).
The only downsides are:
- I've had keycaps fall off after a couple of years and they're almost impossible to get back on (for me at least). The second time this happened I realised it had a 3 year warranty though, so got a replacement.
- It requires a dongle rather than Bluetooth, and if you lose the dongle, you're screwed, as they're paired in the factory and can't be reconfigured.
Are there any other similar keyboards worth considering? Must be wireless, low profile keys and split layout. The Logitech K860 looks alright but I don't need or want the numpad really (I like having my Magic Trackpad closer).
>I realised it had a 3 year warranty though, so got a replacement.
Who did you contact to get the warranty? Forums online seem to indicate that MS support is basically non-existent.
As for keycaps, they're similar to macbook pro keycaps in that if the underlying plastic hook is broken, the keycaps won't stay in no matter what. Luckily the plastic hook is also replaceable, the only thing that you never want to break is the rubber nub.
There's a much bigger downside with the ms keyboard, it's the fact that there's an actual bug with the keyboard matrix or something. I don't understand the details, but if you type "SELECT" (all caps) fast enough, you will notice that the second "c" comes out lowercase.
Who did you contact to get the warranty? Forums online seem to indicate that MS support is basically non-existent.
As for keycaps, they're similar to macbook pro keycaps in that if the underlying plastic hook is broken, the keycaps won't stay in no matter what. Luckily the plastic hook is also replaceable, the only thing that you never want to break is the rubber nub.
There's a much bigger downside with the ms keyboard, it's the fact that there's an actual bug with the keyboard matrix or something. I don't understand the details, but if you type "SELECT" (all caps) fast enough, you will notice that the second "c" comes out lowercase.
I contacted MS directly. I seem to recall it was a bit of a pain to get hold of them. Three year warranty might be a UK/EU only thing though, I'm not sure!
I honestly hope to god MS continues to produce these keyboards. It's the only keyboard I've rebought because I love it so much. The ergonomic tilt both inward and upward, with the scissor switch keys, all for $100, is f'ing incredible.
This is the defacto keyboard I recommend to everyone who types a ton a day.
This is the defacto keyboard I recommend to everyone who types a ton a day.
Agree, I almost want to stockpile them in case they ever do stop making them haha
That seems like an entirely healthy progression!
I used a Kinesis Advantage -- the goofy one, with the inverts wells for each hand -- for like 12 or 15 years. It's GREAT ... but it's big.
A couple years ago I got a Keychron to use with my iPad, and because it was shiny, though, and it's comfy enough that I've been using it as my daily driver since soon after. I intended to change things up periodically, but it's so nice and compact, and the switches feel so nice, that I haven't gone back to the Kinesis.
However, the Keychron is LOUD, so I also have a compact Apple keyboard I swap in for notetaking on conference calls. :)
I used a Kinesis Advantage -- the goofy one, with the inverts wells for each hand -- for like 12 or 15 years. It's GREAT ... but it's big.
A couple years ago I got a Keychron to use with my iPad, and because it was shiny, though, and it's comfy enough that I've been using it as my daily driver since soon after. I intended to change things up periodically, but it's so nice and compact, and the switches feel so nice, that I haven't gone back to the Kinesis.
However, the Keychron is LOUD, so I also have a compact Apple keyboard I swap in for notetaking on conference calls. :)
Even after all these years it's hard to beat the Microsoft Natural Keyboard Elite. I wish someone made a mechanical version.
I'm typing this on a Keychron Q11 so maybe I'm in a similar boat as the author.
Having used many mechanical keyboards over the years - including a Model M inherited from my dad - my dirty little secret is that I keep coming back to the Apple Magic Keyboard.
I’d never admit it in public, though.
I’d never admit it in public, though.
Me, too.
All of my custom keyboard dreams start from the Apple Magic Keyboard as the basis. I want all 78 keys. I just want them split, and Columnar, and… something like ZSA's new Voyager but preserving the things that make the Magic Keyboard great is what I have in mind.
All of my custom keyboard dreams start from the Apple Magic Keyboard as the basis. I want all 78 keys. I just want them split, and Columnar, and… something like ZSA's new Voyager but preserving the things that make the Magic Keyboard great is what I have in mind.
While I prefer wired keyboard as well (due to not having to deal with pairing / connection issues), this argument I don't understand:
> Firstly the board is completely wireless, which means I have to charge it via USB-C. As I'm sat practically tethered to my desk all day a permanently wired option would actually be more convenient as it would save me to the hassle of charging.
Then plug the USB-C cable in permanently? How is it different from it having a wired keyboard?
> Firstly the board is completely wireless, which means I have to charge it via USB-C. As I'm sat practically tethered to my desk all day a permanently wired option would actually be more convenient as it would save me to the hassle of charging.
Then plug the USB-C cable in permanently? How is it different from it having a wired keyboard?
Plugging in the USB-C cable is for charging only, so it would still be a wireless connection. I'd still need to connect via bluetooth or the Logitech dongle. I won't get any of the benefits i.e. latency / lower power consumption of using a wired connection.
I also have concerns about the charger degrading the battery if it's completely plugged in.
I also have concerns about the charger degrading the battery if it's completely plugged in.
Right, I only meant in regard of inconvenience of having to charge it.
Maybe it doesn't work when charging? That's the case with some devices
> However I have a few personal gripes: Firstly the board is completely wireless, which means I have to charge it via USB-C. As I'm sat practically tethered to my desk all day a permanently wired option would actually be more convenient as it would save me to the hassle of charging.
Does anyone else find this to be a pretty strange statement? If he doesn't mind the wire anyway, then just keep it plugged in via USB so it's always charged.
Does anyone else find this to be a pretty strange statement? If he doesn't mind the wire anyway, then just keep it plugged in via USB so it's always charged.
Maybe since it has the wireless feature he feels compelled to use it, but wouldn’t if he didn’t have that option.
Maybe?
Maybe?
Pro tip: I use a mix of Mac and Windows with Apple's magic keyboard. The way I fixed the key layout issue was to swap the mapping of the CMD and CTRL keys on the Windows machine. (used a utility called SharpKeys, but Windows may now have a built in way to do this) It feels pretty much seamless. I'm also using the magic trackpad on Windows - the ability to pinch zoom, pan and scroll is just as functional and awesome as it is on the Mac.
PS, I have never been able to understand the Windows control key placement. You have to use it all the time but it's off to the far side. It has to be pressed with the tiniest, weakest finger.
I'm mostly a Mac guy but have spent lots of time using Windows and I still have to pause to place my finger on the control key. For the same thing, I press the command key on my Mac with my thumb. I can't miss it, my fingers naturally spread out over the keyboard for the second keypress and my thumb is strong.
After many years, it still seems goofy to me.
I'm mostly a Mac guy but have spent lots of time using Windows and I still have to pause to place my finger on the control key. For the same thing, I press the command key on my Mac with my thumb. I can't miss it, my fingers naturally spread out over the keyboard for the second keypress and my thumb is strong.
After many years, it still seems goofy to me.
Remap caps lock to control. Should make your life a little bit easier.
I went down the split keyboard rabbit hole for a bit, starting with a ZSA moonlander followed by a corne and then a ferris sweep but ultimately came to the conclusion that it's just too much hassle. The former was way too bulky to take out and about and I couldn't find a layout on the latter two where I could navigate quickly - be that around my mac using stuff like "cmd+tab", "cmd+`" or around my editor using the cmd+arrow keys. The lack of keys meant you had to start using layers and everything was just slower. The latter two also moved about on the table a lot which was annoying.
The only thing I'd consider trying in the future would be something like a Felix because you hardly have to sacrifice any keys. I'd only get one with low profile chocs or ideally Kaihl scissor switches, but these don't seem to have really made their way into the custom keyboard scene. Chocs plus the case still sits significantly higher than the Magic Keyboard which is bad for the wrists unless you've got some kind of wrist pad to make up the distance from the table.
I've settled on using a Protoarc full-size folding keyboard which I'm seriously impressed with. Typing experience is almost identical to the full size Magic Keyboard but it costs a quarter of the price and is way more portable. I'm surprised that I always see the Arteck keyboard being used in videos and photos because I tried another folding keyboard with a similar layout and having to use the function button to hit escape and other keys was super annoying.
Protoarc link for anyone interested: https://amzn.eu/d/iEGRsCC
The only thing I'd consider trying in the future would be something like a Felix because you hardly have to sacrifice any keys. I'd only get one with low profile chocs or ideally Kaihl scissor switches, but these don't seem to have really made their way into the custom keyboard scene. Chocs plus the case still sits significantly higher than the Magic Keyboard which is bad for the wrists unless you've got some kind of wrist pad to make up the distance from the table.
I've settled on using a Protoarc full-size folding keyboard which I'm seriously impressed with. Typing experience is almost identical to the full size Magic Keyboard but it costs a quarter of the price and is way more portable. I'm surprised that I always see the Arteck keyboard being used in videos and photos because I tried another folding keyboard with a similar layout and having to use the function button to hit escape and other keys was super annoying.
Protoarc link for anyone interested: https://amzn.eu/d/iEGRsCC
Your enthusiasm for collecting and buying keyboards isn't considered unhealthy; it's akin to periodically upgrading a car. At best, it's comparable to exclusively sticking with sedans or small compact cars.
Mechanical keyboards or building custom ones, especially those with Cherry MX keys, are where the excitement lies.
You might not have had the chance to explore them all yet; there's an abundance of various types available.
Mechanical keyboards or building custom ones, especially those with Cherry MX keys, are where the excitement lies.
You might not have had the chance to explore them all yet; there's an abundance of various types available.
I will share my experience with keyboards. Maybe someone of you will find it useful.
I was thinking about ergodox when I wanted to 'open' my rib cage/chest but I was afraid of uncomfortable position of thumb section so I chosen Redox wireless. I was not able to think about using standard keyboard again (but I had to used to it for some time - it's like juggling at the beginning - you have to 'split' your hands). Not split keyboard started to be strange to use because of strange position of hands but Redox was still quite big to carry around with laptop (but QMK and layers are great).
Then I found Ferris Sweep which I created by myself (I had to learn how to solder after 20 years of not touching soldering iron but I was able to create working keyboard in 4h doing it first time). It's another huge jump for me. Now when I switch to build in keyboard I feel how much I have to move my fingers.
ZMK is also good. My ferris is connected with bluetooth so I can easily use it with multiple devices (and phones) in the same time (like two laptops because switching is very quick).
When I travel I can put my split keyboard on the sides of the macbook and use touchpad in the middle. It's similar how I use it at home but I use magic trackpad in the middle. I use Kailh Low Profile Choc Pink Pro Switches instead of Cherry MX Brown which I had in Redox and I just bottom them on writing (instead of using tactile effect). Keyboard is really small.
The next step some day will be probably something like that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKfeJrRIcxw&t=1s where you can adjust keys to your palm. I can image that it can be helpful for people with some disabilities or rheumatoid arthritis.
I was thinking about ergodox when I wanted to 'open' my rib cage/chest but I was afraid of uncomfortable position of thumb section so I chosen Redox wireless. I was not able to think about using standard keyboard again (but I had to used to it for some time - it's like juggling at the beginning - you have to 'split' your hands). Not split keyboard started to be strange to use because of strange position of hands but Redox was still quite big to carry around with laptop (but QMK and layers are great).
Then I found Ferris Sweep which I created by myself (I had to learn how to solder after 20 years of not touching soldering iron but I was able to create working keyboard in 4h doing it first time). It's another huge jump for me. Now when I switch to build in keyboard I feel how much I have to move my fingers.
ZMK is also good. My ferris is connected with bluetooth so I can easily use it with multiple devices (and phones) in the same time (like two laptops because switching is very quick).
When I travel I can put my split keyboard on the sides of the macbook and use touchpad in the middle. It's similar how I use it at home but I use magic trackpad in the middle. I use Kailh Low Profile Choc Pink Pro Switches instead of Cherry MX Brown which I had in Redox and I just bottom them on writing (instead of using tactile effect). Keyboard is really small.
The next step some day will be probably something like that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKfeJrRIcxw&t=1s where you can adjust keys to your palm. I can image that it can be helpful for people with some disabilities or rheumatoid arthritis.
I recently bought https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CBWJ9SKX ($35 USD) which I was skeptical about since cheap mechanical keyboards tend to be shitty (I tried quite a few). But this one has been absolutely amazing, so much so, that I prefer it to many $100 keyboards, and has been absolutely amazing for work (the nice brown feel, with a very muted sound). I wish for $10-15 more they had a full version, but this one is great as well.
In any case, thought I'd share.
Also when he said "after uni... covid lockdown" really made me feel old :P
For those reading, cherry brown or equivalent switches are your friend. I used to use blues with the clicky sound (browns are like blues without the sound) and I can tell you the blues got my keyboard kicked out of work AND my fiance threatened to beat me with it. Those blue sounds are bad bad bad for others, all jokes aside.
In any case, thought I'd share.
Also when he said "after uni... covid lockdown" really made me feel old :P
For those reading, cherry brown or equivalent switches are your friend. I used to use blues with the clicky sound (browns are like blues without the sound) and I can tell you the blues got my keyboard kicked out of work AND my fiance threatened to beat me with it. Those blue sounds are bad bad bad for others, all jokes aside.
Author here, funnily enough that's one of the keyboards I had my eyes on! (I have that very linked pinned my browser right now). Was holding off until some more depth reviews came out, so far I'd only seen unboxing / first impression videos / reviews. So it's good to see you'd have a good experience with this board.
Might have to wait a few months until I'm back in my home country, I'm in Brazil rn and the import tax is more than the price of the keyboard.
Was worried that it wouldn't hold up to something more premium and I'd have to fork out some additional cash to get that experience. But from what you've mentioned it sounds like it's pretty good for the price.
Sorry for making you feel old!
Might have to wait a few months until I'm back in my home country, I'm in Brazil rn and the import tax is more than the price of the keyboard.
Was worried that it wouldn't hold up to something more premium and I'd have to fork out some additional cash to get that experience. But from what you've mentioned it sounds like it's pretty good for the price.
Sorry for making you feel old!
Dude, I cannot recommend this enough. Typing this response on it. Love it. Just get it. Its $35, if you don't like it you only wasted $35, not like one of those 100-300 keyboards.
Also nah, I'll feel old no matter what :P
Also nah, I'll feel old no matter what :P
I personally prefer the low-profile chiclet keys over mechanical so it was refreshing to see someone "turn their back" on mechanical keyboards too. Something about the low-profile keys just cannot be beaten. I've tried many mechanical keyboards and switches over the years and frankly nothing comes close in terms of typing ergonomics of a low-profile chiclet keyboard. </unpopular-opinion>
I've found that Cherry make a semi-decent low-profile Mac-style chiclet wired keyboard that costs approx £30. It is Cherry of keyboard-switch-fame, but it is scissor switches and not mechanical. Build wise it is pretty solid and good replacement to my old mac chiclet keyboard: https://www.cherry.co.uk/kc-6000-slim I've been using it for several years now and I've very pleased with it.
I've found that Cherry make a semi-decent low-profile Mac-style chiclet wired keyboard that costs approx £30. It is Cherry of keyboard-switch-fame, but it is scissor switches and not mechanical. Build wise it is pretty solid and good replacement to my old mac chiclet keyboard: https://www.cherry.co.uk/kc-6000-slim I've been using it for several years now and I've very pleased with it.
Oh I love this article. And I can totally relate. I have so many keyboards that I feel ashamed to have spent so much money on all of theses devices.
But the journey is amazing. Switching from flat to mechanical. From ergo to standard.
Down the road, after so many years, I like the option to be able to switch easily. I lile my Moonlander split (but hate that it moves) so I fallback on a flat Microsoft Sculpt. And sometimes use the MX Key MINI. Yeah, the mini is the way to go. The big one with the numpad is too big for me too.
My dream is a split, flat, keyboard with good build quality. Maybe something like the https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/naya-create/naya-create ? But that price and not built yet is stopping me from pulling the trigger...
What's your favorite dope keyboard out there?
But the journey is amazing. Switching from flat to mechanical. From ergo to standard.
Down the road, after so many years, I like the option to be able to switch easily. I lile my Moonlander split (but hate that it moves) so I fallback on a flat Microsoft Sculpt. And sometimes use the MX Key MINI. Yeah, the mini is the way to go. The big one with the numpad is too big for me too.
My dream is a split, flat, keyboard with good build quality. Maybe something like the https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/naya-create/naya-create ? But that price and not built yet is stopping me from pulling the trigger...
What's your favorite dope keyboard out there?
PS: I have no relation with the Naya team building this new baby
This is the only keyboard I've been interested in: DataHand
Original: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand
DIY: https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard
Using a single direction for activation, requiring massive movements in 2d space, seems so silly. I haven't been able to find one, to purchase.
Related, I'm still learning how to use this one, since it's the only non-DIY equivalent I could find (great founder btw): https://www.charachorder.com/products/charachorder-one
It supports sequential and non-standard chords, mostly with x-y plane activation. Pushing down actually isn't used often.
Original: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand
DIY: https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard
Using a single direction for activation, requiring massive movements in 2d space, seems so silly. I haven't been able to find one, to purchase.
Related, I'm still learning how to use this one, since it's the only non-DIY equivalent I could find (great founder btw): https://www.charachorder.com/products/charachorder-one
It supports sequential and non-standard chords, mostly with x-y plane activation. Pushing down actually isn't used often.
That's pretty cool, my Kinesis might finally have a worthy rival
I loved my MX Keys until I realised it was built with the same idea as the iPhone. I was meant to treat it as disposable/replaceable at the first sign of trouble. No user-serviceable parts. As soon as one key got sticky, that was the end of the experience with no way out without paying more money.
Next favourite is their K295. For some reason, it clicks with me (a joke because it is silent). All keys available and in the right position and a nice accurate mouse. Most importantly, the function keys are separate from the media keys, meaning less key presses.
My third favourite wireless keyboard/mouse combo cost $7 at a supermarket. Sometimes you just hit the jackpot with cheap manufacturing. I have to remember to go back and buy ten more when this luck occurs.
For reference, I've bought and used at least 20+ keyboards and/or mouses.
Next favourite is their K295. For some reason, it clicks with me (a joke because it is silent). All keys available and in the right position and a nice accurate mouse. Most importantly, the function keys are separate from the media keys, meaning less key presses.
My third favourite wireless keyboard/mouse combo cost $7 at a supermarket. Sometimes you just hit the jackpot with cheap manufacturing. I have to remember to go back and buy ten more when this luck occurs.
For reference, I've bought and used at least 20+ keyboards and/or mouses.
Found a Logitech keyboard with no missing keys next to a dumpster back in 2007. I took it home, cleaned it up, replaced the torn and tattered USB cable, been using it since then.
Whenever someone complains about their keyboard Bluetooth not connecting, or their batteries dying, I gently raise it in the air and point at it.
Whenever someone complains about their keyboard Bluetooth not connecting, or their batteries dying, I gently raise it in the air and point at it.
I'm pretty happy with the keyboards I have, but I just ordered 8BitDo's new mechanical keyboard anyway. Some things distinguishing it from my other mechanical keyboards atm:
It's only $100 and it looks very cute. Could be a good entrypoint for many!
https://shop.8bitdo.com/products/8bitdo-retro-mechanical-key...
- wireless (both Bluetooth and with a dongle)
- hardware volume dial
- two giant, programmable, external buttons (maybe I can use these as Emacs pedals?)
It's only $100 and it looks very cute. Could be a good entrypoint for many!
https://shop.8bitdo.com/products/8bitdo-retro-mechanical-key...
Update! I'd actually pre-ordered the thing some time ago, and I was looking forward to its arrival today. I'm writing this message from it (incidentally, from my phone, which is where I usually use HN).
It's quite nice! The switches felt a bit light for me at first, but they're really quite good. I do find myself bottoming out the keys as I type, but the keyboard feels decently heavy, so the sound of bottoming out is quite pleasant.
The curvature of the keyboard is unfortunately achieved in the usual way for modular, Cherry-compatible keyboards, which means differently-shaped keycaps rather than a curved backplate as on a Model M. This basically achieves the effect, but it means the keycaps on the board are not interchangeable, and it makes finding alternative keycaps a bit trickier.
The amber power light is gorgeous!
Overall I am very happy with it and glad to have a wireless option among my mechanical keyboards. :)
It's quite nice! The switches felt a bit light for me at first, but they're really quite good. I do find myself bottoming out the keys as I type, but the keyboard feels decently heavy, so the sound of bottoming out is quite pleasant.
The curvature of the keyboard is unfortunately achieved in the usual way for modular, Cherry-compatible keyboards, which means differently-shaped keycaps rather than a curved backplate as on a Model M. This basically achieves the effect, but it means the keycaps on the board are not interchangeable, and it makes finding alternative keycaps a bit trickier.
The amber power light is gorgeous!
Overall I am very happy with it and glad to have a wireless option among my mechanical keyboards. :)
If you type a lot for a work, spending the time and money for better tooling is not only healthy but should be encouraged. Unhealthy, is when you try to track down an after market Key Cult for $2,000 and spend $500 on switches because you feel like you have to try them all.
I've used the MS Natural keyboards for years. I'd love to move to a mechanical model but the sites selling keyboards are really confusing.
What do I have to buy to get a functioning keyboard? A shell? Switches? Other stuff? I really don't know what I'm looking at.
Anyone got a good entry point?
What do I have to buy to get a functioning keyboard? A shell? Switches? Other stuff? I really don't know what I'm looking at.
Anyone got a good entry point?
Get an off-the-shelf Arisu layout keyboard from a reputable manufacturer. You don't have to worry about the billion options. The Arisu layout keyboards are the closest mechanical keyboards you can get to a MS Natural keyboard layout, IMHO.
Keychron has several models of different sizes that give you good options on size vs. function vs. price: V8/V10, Q8/Q10, K15 Pro, etc. They sell on Amazon, their own site and some mech kbd vendors as well. Their own site is the only one that carries the entire product line, however.
Akkogear has a model (ACR Pro Alice Plus) that's quite affordable and good build quality.
Feker Alice boards from Epomaker are another good choice.
Keychron has several models of different sizes that give you good options on size vs. function vs. price: V8/V10, Q8/Q10, K15 Pro, etc. They sell on Amazon, their own site and some mech kbd vendors as well. Their own site is the only one that carries the entire product line, however.
Akkogear has a model (ACR Pro Alice Plus) that's quite affordable and good build quality.
Feker Alice boards from Epomaker are another good choice.
Unlike the MS Natural 4000, all of these seem to lack one or more of: symmetrical meta keys, F keys, standard navigation cluster, right hand Ctrl and/or Alt, cursor keys away from the main typing area (probably necessary for symmetrical meta keys anyway), PrtSc key.
(A pause key would be nice too. I think I can survive without ScrLk.)
I like having a numeric keypad, but that can always be bought separately.
Volume controls and mute would be a nice. I like them separate, but Fn+something is acceptable.
Even if I'd never buy any of them, I do like the fact that there are all these different layouts. But it's a constant mystery to me why none of them are remotely like the very standard MS split layout that's been around for over 25 years.
(A pause key would be nice too. I think I can survive without ScrLk.)
I like having a numeric keypad, but that can always be bought separately.
Volume controls and mute would be a nice. I like them separate, but Fn+something is acceptable.
Even if I'd never buy any of them, I do like the fact that there are all these different layouts. But it's a constant mystery to me why none of them are remotely like the very standard MS split layout that's been around for over 25 years.
I find it bizarre to say "Arisu layout" and "ergonomic" in the same sentence.
The layout looks cool.
The only two ergonomic things about it are that the letters are slightly split apart, and slightly at an angle. (The thumb gets to press more keys than on a standard keyboard, but not as many as on better keyboards).
The layouts tend to have weird features, stuff like: the digit for 6 is placed on the left-hand side; or that it's got pinky-finger modifiers, but not 3 on each side. Many layouts also drop the function row (indicating users are expected to use layers), but retain a nav cluster. - The layout of the alphabetical keys is also weirdly asymmetric.
The layout looks cool.
The only two ergonomic things about it are that the letters are slightly split apart, and slightly at an angle. (The thumb gets to press more keys than on a standard keyboard, but not as many as on better keyboards).
The layouts tend to have weird features, stuff like: the digit for 6 is placed on the left-hand side; or that it's got pinky-finger modifiers, but not 3 on each side. Many layouts also drop the function row (indicating users are expected to use layers), but retain a nav cluster. - The layout of the alphabetical keys is also weirdly asymmetric.
6 on the left is the same as the the split MS keyboards - for good or for ill. (But at least it's the same!)
Start reading here: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/wiki/index/
It is not too hard these days to buy a complete and immediately usable keyboard on line. But it does help to know what you are looking for because there are choices to be made around format, switches, keycaps, etc.
It is not too hard these days to buy a complete and immediately usable keyboard on line. But it does help to know what you are looking for because there are choices to be made around format, switches, keycaps, etc.
MS Natural Keyboards have the opposite shape of natural in the Z-axis. Your pinky and index fingers have to travel _more_ because the curve is a mirror of the curve of your hands.
Kinesis Advantage2 are the negative shape of your hands and the split lines up with your shoulder width. Love my Kinesis Advantage2.
Kinesis Advantage2 are the negative shape of your hands and the split lines up with your shoulder width. Love my Kinesis Advantage2.
[deleted]
I literally have at least 20 different mechanical keyboards and about 4 on each desk at any different time.
My wife used to ask why I need so many keyboards, because I only have two hands. But she backed off when I replied with why does she need so many shoes when she only has two feet.
My wife used to ask why I need so many keyboards, because I only have two hands. But she backed off when I replied with why does she need so many shoes when she only has two feet.
until you start spending hundreds on a single board and obsess about switches, keycaps, materials, acoustics, etc. it is not unhealthy at all !
My all time favorite was a Northgate Omnikey. It had incredible switches and function keys on the side and across the top. It lasted about 20 years and was killed by Mt. Dew.
Second favorite is the Logitech K780. It feels a lot like the MX Keys but with round key caps.
Second favorite is the Logitech K780. It feels a lot like the MX Keys but with round key caps.
To my mind, an unhealthy relationship with a keyboard comes down to an unhealthy keyboard design.
My criteria for a healthy keyboard, ordered by importance DESC:
* ergonomic with split ( e.g. Goldtouch , MSFT Natural series , Adesso)
* backlit
* silent but with durable switches (there is enough noise in the world)
* Bluetooth or unified receiver for both mouse and keyboard ( e.g. Logitech )
* if there is a trackball or touchpad, there must also be buttons to maintain full drag-drop and copy-paste functionality
Rather than fuss about the switches, I recommend that coders assemble a reliable set of ergonomic components (portable LCD, keyboard) that connect to $somebox via a docking station.
$someboxen will come and go, but aim to preserve comfort and safety.
My criteria for a healthy keyboard, ordered by importance DESC:
* ergonomic with split ( e.g. Goldtouch , MSFT Natural series , Adesso)
* backlit
* silent but with durable switches (there is enough noise in the world)
* Bluetooth or unified receiver for both mouse and keyboard ( e.g. Logitech )
* if there is a trackball or touchpad, there must also be buttons to maintain full drag-drop and copy-paste functionality
Rather than fuss about the switches, I recommend that coders assemble a reliable set of ergonomic components (portable LCD, keyboard) that connect to $somebox via a docking station.
$someboxen will come and go, but aim to preserve comfort and safety.
I've played around with so many keyboards, but I'm at a point now where workflow is more important to me. Personally I find the MX Keys to be the best keyboard I've ever put my hands on, but I really like the fingerprint reader in the Apple keyboards. (One day I may take on the project of extracting the fingerprint reader: https://hackaday.com/2022/12/26/standalone-touch-id-for-your...)
Fingerprint reader on keyboard == AWESOME
The MS Sculpt keyboard is great, the weird mouse that comes with it too.
once you go split your never gonna quit
I've been using a Das Keyboard with blank keycaps for almost a year.
> I frequently had to manually type in passwords when SSH'ing onto remote boxes ... This happened frequently enough that I realised that blank keycaps weren't for me, at least not for the office/work environment.
In my case, I use a laptop as my primary computer. When I need to type like that, I just stand up and use my laptop's keyboard.
Honestly, though, I really wish the Das Keyboard had a braille option. :)
> I frequently had to manually type in passwords when SSH'ing onto remote boxes ... This happened frequently enough that I realised that blank keycaps weren't for me, at least not for the office/work environment.
In my case, I use a laptop as my primary computer. When I need to type like that, I just stand up and use my laptop's keyboard.
Honestly, though, I really wish the Das Keyboard had a braille option. :)
The best keyboard I ever had was Velocifire VM02WS. It has mechanical brown switches, and it worked flawlessly for more than 5 years. Then the left control key broke down.
The rest of the keyboards I have used, no matter mechanical or not, failed after 1-2 years of use. Typically, it was the left control key.
Currently I’m using some gamer-targeted keyboard with ridiculous blue LEDs which had “more than 15 million cycles” label on the box. So far so good, but I liked the mechanical ones better.
The rest of the keyboards I have used, no matter mechanical or not, failed after 1-2 years of use. Typically, it was the left control key.
Currently I’m using some gamer-targeted keyboard with ridiculous blue LEDs which had “more than 15 million cycles” label on the box. So far so good, but I liked the mechanical ones better.
Best keyboard I ever had was the Logitech Ultra-X. There's nothing "cool" about it, it used scissor switches was full size, but holy crap was it ever a delight to type on.
Felt a lot like you know, a ~2000s thinkpad keyboard, low profile concave caps, like how laptops felt before every laptop became a crappy macbook clone with flat keycaps. It went out of production like a decade or more ago and nothing has been close to the same ever since.
Felt a lot like you know, a ~2000s thinkpad keyboard, low profile concave caps, like how laptops felt before every laptop became a crappy macbook clone with flat keycaps. It went out of production like a decade or more ago and nothing has been close to the same ever since.
Had a Logitech G-413 mechanical keyboard - it was lovely until the keycaps like ALT Left Shift and Left Control started fading after 2 years of heavy daily use - not very impressed and a warranty claim was not worth it also could not source keycaps for the weirdo Romer G switches they use.
Gave up and thought about a Keychron K8 but was weary of the small form factor so I settled on a Logitech MX Keys as well.
Gave up and thought about a Keychron K8 but was weary of the small form factor so I settled on a Logitech MX Keys as well.
This is amateur hour!
Let me know when you own all the flavors of the MX Keys, Mechanical, Mini, "Regular". All of the microsoft designer keys, a few Vortex keyboards (Core 40%, Cyph3r), some Dvorak keyboards, apple ones, custom made ones..... lol
It really is an addiction, it's a shame I too keep coming back to the MX Keys Line (Currently in love with the Mechanical w/ Cherry switches).
It really is an addiction, it's a shame I too keep coming back to the MX Keys Line (Currently in love with the Mechanical w/ Cherry switches).
> I likely write a follow up post about my criteria and reserach and perhaps a follow up review if I end up pulling the trigger.
I feel like people who use the phrase 'pulling the trigger' in this way have an unhealthy relationship with shopping. They are shopping for dopamine and they are like the ones who have a hundred of the same hat and when they need more dopamine they buy that hat again.
I feel like people who use the phrase 'pulling the trigger' in this way have an unhealthy relationship with shopping. They are shopping for dopamine and they are like the ones who have a hundred of the same hat and when they need more dopamine they buy that hat again.
You're thus far the only hacker news commenter to agree (somewhat) with the 'unhealthy' premise of the article.
Many recommendations that "split" is a good property to have on a keyboard.
I'd add that it's a good idea to get a keyboard where your thumbs get to use two or three keys each. Most keyboards have a big spacebar, and so the thumbs can't do much from home row. (And then useful keys like backspace, enter, escape require reaching/stretching/using pinky fingers).
I'd add that it's a good idea to get a keyboard where your thumbs get to use two or three keys each. Most keyboards have a big spacebar, and so the thumbs can't do much from home row. (And then useful keys like backspace, enter, escape require reaching/stretching/using pinky fingers).
I have a slightly different keyboard relationship; I used to browse the Typing Injury FAQ of alternative keyboard designs[1] and fell for the idea of chording keyboards and mobile devices like the DataEgg[2] (I still wonder if chording could be useful on multitouch mobile devices), then for mechanical IBM Model M, then for split Microsoft Natural, then if you're going to split for each hand, don't half-arse it, whole-arse it with the DataHand[3] and its opto-magnetic switches. Then why not type faster like a court reporter, with Stenography and keyboards which support n-key rollover so they can be used with Plover[4].
Actually, what I most like is a flat keyboard with full keys and arrows and separate F keys and numeric keypad. Because most of what I'm doing is not entering long-form English literature, it's text and key combinations and numbers and arrows and symbols and mouse clicks and holding a phone and anything which requires the concentration of a weird entry system, or needs both hands in just the right places, or cuts out lots of keys to look stylish or take up less desk space or squash keys together to fit on a laptop, or change the alignment of keys weirdly, or assume everyone has prehensile thumbs which can take 90% of the key load on their own, or disregard years of muscle memory for a little temporary fashion, are ... worse.
[1] http://www.tifaq.org/keyboards.html - look at the links down the left side menu.
[2] https://friedmanarchives.com/dataegg/index.html see also AgendA https://friedmanarchives.com/dataegg/History.html and Twiddler2 - https://www.researchgate.net/figure/HandyKey-Twiddler-2-Chor...
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand
[4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34298063
Actually, what I most like is a flat keyboard with full keys and arrows and separate F keys and numeric keypad. Because most of what I'm doing is not entering long-form English literature, it's text and key combinations and numbers and arrows and symbols and mouse clicks and holding a phone and anything which requires the concentration of a weird entry system, or needs both hands in just the right places, or cuts out lots of keys to look stylish or take up less desk space or squash keys together to fit on a laptop, or change the alignment of keys weirdly, or assume everyone has prehensile thumbs which can take 90% of the key load on their own, or disregard years of muscle memory for a little temporary fashion, are ... worse.
[1] http://www.tifaq.org/keyboards.html - look at the links down the left side menu.
[2] https://friedmanarchives.com/dataegg/index.html see also AgendA https://friedmanarchives.com/dataegg/History.html and Twiddler2 - https://www.researchgate.net/figure/HandyKey-Twiddler-2-Chor...
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand
[4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34298063
> Noppoo Choc Mini
Mine broke, but I have a strong emotional attachment to this keyboard, it's the one I was using when getting to Starcraft 2's Masters League for the first time :) I got the version with 30g Gateron Clears, which were quiet and activated by barely touching them. I think I got it after seeing a player I admire (Snute) was using it.
Mine broke, but I have a strong emotional attachment to this keyboard, it's the one I was using when getting to Starcraft 2's Masters League for the first time :) I got the version with 30g Gateron Clears, which were quiet and activated by barely touching them. I think I got it after seeing a player I admire (Snute) was using it.
> Firstly the board is completely wireless
What are people's thoughts on wireless keyboards? For me they're potentially leaky and it's trivial to intercept the keystrokes via EMF capture. My threat model is such that any bad actor can do an EMF capture and glean master passphrases and other sensitive data. So I avoid them. No radios, wired only.
What are people's thoughts on wireless keyboards? For me they're potentially leaky and it's trivial to intercept the keystrokes via EMF capture. My threat model is such that any bad actor can do an EMF capture and glean master passphrases and other sensitive data. So I avoid them. No radios, wired only.
I'm a simple man. At work I have a Cherry Stream. At home I have a Cherry Stream. I also have a backup on hand (Cherry Stream). Two are black and one is white. The keyboard I had before my first Cherry Stream was mechanical. It was fine, but way too noisy. I still don't get the fuss about mechanical keyboards.
My experimentation largely ended when I got an ErgoDox EZ a few years ago. Ergonomic + ortholinear has been life changing, and it’s hard to go back, even for relatively short bursts on the built-in laptop keyboard itself.
I recently got an OLKB Planck to see if I like it enough to travel with it, as the ErgoDox is a bit hefty for that use case.
I recently got an OLKB Planck to see if I like it enough to travel with it, as the ErgoDox is a bit hefty for that use case.
I really wish there were more options out there with the Apple keyboard layout on the bottom row, notably with the right edge of the Command and X keys aligned. The Magic Keyboard is so comfortable to use on a Mac but the typing experience could definitely be improved.
I splurged and bought a 400$ keyboard. Its so stupid and I love it so much. It feels like a piece of heavy machinery.
I'd say the mechanicalkeyboard crowd is a little more unhealthy. People in that world drop thousands a year on keyboards they'll use twice.
I'd say the mechanicalkeyboard crowd is a little more unhealthy. People in that world drop thousands a year on keyboards they'll use twice.
I've seen people drop $120k on a Ford Raptor truck and then never put a single load of lumber, bark, or dirt in the bed.
Which one did you get?
Mode Envoy, all copper internals. Not 400$, but with extra switches and keycaps its around there. I love the look and feel. The sound is a little thin, and I find the "lattice block" mounting system to be basically irrelevant marketing material, at least with a heavy plate.
Still highly recommend though.
Still highly recommend though.
I've been using a Das Keyboard 4 Ultimate (the blank one) for almost 10 years. I liked it so much that I soon got another for work. While I have looked at other keyboards, I've never wanted to replace either one.
My journey so far has been (24yo):
The keyboard on my dads HP laptop
Generic keyboard that came with my familys first home computer (WinXP)
A Logitech Ergo version who knows
Logitech G110
Logitech G15
Razer Arctosa
Razer Blackwidow 2013 (first mechanical)
Misc. Tesoro brand keyboard
Mistel Barocco MD600 (split)
ROG Claymore (removable and sideswappable numpad)
Keychron K3v2 <- now
Next might be a printed -dactyl or moonlander.
The keyboard on my dads HP laptop
Generic keyboard that came with my familys first home computer (WinXP)
A Logitech Ergo version who knows
Logitech G110
Logitech G15
Razer Arctosa
Razer Blackwidow 2013 (first mechanical)
Misc. Tesoro brand keyboard
Mistel Barocco MD600 (split)
ROG Claymore (removable and sideswappable numpad)
Keychron K3v2 <- now
Next might be a printed -dactyl or moonlander.
I have a moonlander, and it's great, but now I want a dactyl.so make of that what you will. I got the moonlander thinking it would be more mobile, and it's not. it's great if you're looking for something finished that feels durable, but then at that price point- the glove80 is out and it's wireless. the zsa key config tool is amazing though.
MX Keys is a great keyboard, if only for the quick switch between up to 3 saved devices. Work laptop, Desktop, Personal Laptop with the same keyboard and switching with a single key press is just a great feature.
> quick switch between up to 3 saved devices
Is there a touchpad or a mouse with a similar feature?
Is there a touchpad or a mouse with a similar feature?
The corresponding mouse, MX Master Mouse (I think is the name) from Logitech has the same feature. Its a button which cycles through the three saved devices, so 2->1 is 2 key presses so not exactly 1. But its really a great feature. Literally a killer feature for me that I don't know why everything doesn't have it.
Nice article but this isn't an unhealthy relationship at all. They haven't gone down the rabbit hole of r/mechanicalkeyboards and/or r/ergomechkeyboards, or even built their own keyboard.
I want a keyboard with a touchpad beneath the space bar, like the laptops.
It is very nice to have everything in front of you and have space on your right / left for a paper notebook.
There is nothing out there.
It is very nice to have everything in front of you and have space on your right / left for a paper notebook.
There is nothing out there.
Not sure if you use Mac OS but people have designed this https://www.printables.com/model/61596-magic-keyboard-and-tr...
Yep I have a similar one [1]. But the experience is honestly janky. The magic touchpad does not do palm rejection like the MacBooks do, and the whole thing is very thick and heavy.
[1]https://www.etsy.com/listing/783328345/the-tre-o-apple-bluet...
[1]https://www.etsy.com/listing/783328345/the-tre-o-apple-bluet...
[deleted]
"Unhealthy" is a bit on the clickbait side. I barely have:
- 2 Northgate Omnikey Ultras with ALPS switches
- a Japanese RealForce with Topre 45g switches
- a Patriot with Kailh Box Switches
- an WASD V2 in need of a USB-C transceiver
- 2 Northgate Omnikey Ultras with ALPS switches
- a Japanese RealForce with Topre 45g switches
- a Patriot with Kailh Box Switches
- an WASD V2 in need of a USB-C transceiver
I'm looking for a programmable (ZMK/QMK) split ergo ortholinear keyboard that uses low travel macbook-style keys and can be custom tented. Any suggestions?
Closest thing is probably the ZSA Voyager, but choc keys + case is still a fair bit higher than a Magic Keyboard
If Apple made a split ergo programmable keyboard I'd probably buy one. It's kind of weird to me all the ergo mech crowd have latched onto the mech part, when I'm sure there are others like me who want split ergo and low profile :/
I feel exactly the same way but it's highly unlikely. I do think that we will see some kind of gesture recognition tech built into the Apple watch which will allow us to type without any keyboard at all. There's already a product on the market that does this called the TapXR and I think with the push towards VR and AR and the need for a solution for typing in these programs when you're not at a desk, this is coming sooner or later. We've already seen the early stages of this with the new gesture for answering phone calls on the latest Apple watches.
https://www.tapwithus.com/product/tap-xr/
https://www.tapwithus.com/product/tap-xr/
Currently using a Ducky One 2 Mini with katakana caps. I'm waiting for another job offer to look for another model, as I expect the next one will be expensive.
That's hardly any. I think I get 9 months out of a keyboard.
Currently using a Cherry Stream TKL. Probably the best keyboard I've had for years and it was dirt cheap.
Currently using a Cherry Stream TKL. Probably the best keyboard I've had for years and it was dirt cheap.
I love having a narrow keyboard (due to ergonomics), but I wish that at least some models would be a row deeper and keep the function keys.
> (...) I wish that at least some models would be a row deeper and keep the function keys.
I think you might be looking for a keyboard form factor called 75% keyboard, or even a tenkeyless.
I think you might be looking for a keyboard form factor called 75% keyboard, or even a tenkeyless.
I had one 75% keyboard, but didn't like that extra column on the right. Now I have a custom build (6x14 keys) keyboard (much better IMHO).
> Now I have a custom build (6x14 keys) keyboard (much better IMHO).
That sounds cool. Can you share more details about that?
That sounds cool. Can you share more details about that?
I used BFO-9000 PCB which allows to break off some rows/columns. So, it's actually a split keyboard with two 6x7 pieces and low profile switches.
I like the narrow width and number of available keys.
Keycaps are black & white, but what I miss is different shapes of keycaps for easier tactile orientation. As a workaround I added keycaps with tactile nubs to some extra keys (enter, backspace, alt & tab). It helps, but it's not as good as different shapes would be.
I like the narrow width and number of available keys.
Keycaps are black & white, but what I miss is different shapes of keycaps for easier tactile orientation. As a workaround I added keycaps with tactile nubs to some extra keys (enter, backspace, alt & tab). It helps, but it's not as good as different shapes would be.
KBParadise V60 here. I got mine with Cherry MX Greens, but I don't think they offer them with those anymore. Nice and clacky.
It's not unhealthy until you buy a Topre.
Gotta pump those numbers up kid.
Those are rookie numbers.
Those are rookie numbers.
I love the HHKB - it’s compact and looks/feels nice.
I’m either using a variation of one of those or the macOS boards.
I’m either using a variation of one of those or the macOS boards.
My favorite is the logitech k500. I like it so much, i have a few new spare ones in my closet.
I lost money on two Cherry switch boards until I got an HHKB Pro2. I feel no need to change.
How is using the arrows? I had a poker 2 that had arrows on the wasd but that seems a bit easier as the arrows were away from the hand that was hitting the function key.
You get used to the layer keys for arrows within a day or two.
Went ahead and ordered one. Thanks for the reply!
That's nothing. I have 8 spare keyboards I still haven't used.
I have more keyboards than this guy does lol.
Not an unhealthy relationship at all!