Ask HN: Is it a bad time to take a sabbatical?
A tech employee (PM) at a startup with 2 years as a PM and about 10 years as a dev. Have been continuously working for those 12 years without a good break and I fear I might be on the verge of burnout. I’m looking for advice on the best approach to taking a sabbatical. The economy is what scares me. I don’t want a 4 month sabbatical to turn into a 12 month break. Is it a good time and how would you approach it? We have a dual income home and we will break even on a monthly basis if one of us takes a sabbatical. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
52 comments
I think a lot of responders here might be very young, even so young that they entered the workforce around 2011 or so and have never experienced a prolonged bear market. If that's the case for you, welcome to the shit. The days of sending your resume out on Monday and having a job offer with a 50% pay bump by Friday are over.
Having survived through all the tech downturns from 2000 onward, I would say: If you think your job is reasonably secure, don't even think about leaving it right now. Slow down a bit, maybe coast some and see if your mental health improves, take a week here and a week there of sick time, but don't let go of the life boat!
If you think burnout is bad, try having to send out hundreds of resumes and get one or two responses. That sucks. It sucks doubly when you are doing it at 11AM on a Tuesday because you're unemployed. Don't voluntarily do this to yourself.
Having survived through all the tech downturns from 2000 onward, I would say: If you think your job is reasonably secure, don't even think about leaving it right now. Slow down a bit, maybe coast some and see if your mental health improves, take a week here and a week there of sick time, but don't let go of the life boat!
If you think burnout is bad, try having to send out hundreds of resumes and get one or two responses. That sucks. It sucks doubly when you are doing it at 11AM on a Tuesday because you're unemployed. Don't voluntarily do this to yourself.
Sounds like the OP has a boat that can float even with 50% power.
Your advice is good and fits most sizes and I would like to present the flip side of the coin: 10 years in the game is a lot credential wise and I think could be an opportunity to refit at sea and decide a new course.
It really depends on what risk OP and partner are comfortable with.
Thanks everyone here for their inputs.
Your advice is good and fits most sizes and I would like to present the flip side of the coin: 10 years in the game is a lot credential wise and I think could be an opportunity to refit at sea and decide a new course.
It really depends on what risk OP and partner are comfortable with.
Thanks everyone here for their inputs.
Other people may have more luck than me. My situation, since being laid off half a year ago I figured I'd try to enjoy the time while it lasted, and travel a bit. Felt like I was close to burning out myself near the end of my previous tenure. Now... it feels like I've truly burnt out from job hunting 9 to 5. Only managed to get one technical screen I didn't pass, and they didn't give a reason. Drove me mad trying to figure out why, but I never did. Haven't gotten even a phone screen ever since, and it's been months.
I'm thinking that since finances and such are pushing me to the end of my rope my only option is menial work for the time being. I think I am depressed. Even if I got another screen and passed I don't know if I'd be capable of the work any longer. It's all hideously demoralizing and it's as if there's no light at the end of the tunnel. I was at a reasonably large company for five years previous, I guess there's only so much that can do in a zero-sum situation like now.
But again, I'm not sure if you'd have worse luck getting any sort of interview for an IC position at least. If burnout at work is that much of a concern and you're confident it makes less sense to go with "keep the job." But I certainly would have regretted leaving (if I had any control over the matter), knowing the job search has now turned into its own job for me, a mentally exhausting unpaid job with no guarantee of positive prospects and an endless stream of employers that reject you every week for no identifiable reason.
I'm thinking that since finances and such are pushing me to the end of my rope my only option is menial work for the time being. I think I am depressed. Even if I got another screen and passed I don't know if I'd be capable of the work any longer. It's all hideously demoralizing and it's as if there's no light at the end of the tunnel. I was at a reasonably large company for five years previous, I guess there's only so much that can do in a zero-sum situation like now.
But again, I'm not sure if you'd have worse luck getting any sort of interview for an IC position at least. If burnout at work is that much of a concern and you're confident it makes less sense to go with "keep the job." But I certainly would have regretted leaving (if I had any control over the matter), knowing the job search has now turned into its own job for me, a mentally exhausting unpaid job with no guarantee of positive prospects and an endless stream of employers that reject you every week for no identifiable reason.
What’s your stack? I’d love to see your resume. I’m not hiring but I/HN community may have some constructive feedback. The market is slowed but not that slowed. My first thought is you’re in a stack that doesn’t have a lot of openings anyway, like Ruby or Swift.
I am really sorry you are going through this. Thank you for your perspective and I hope things will work out for you soon.
I would approach it by looking at the market now and seeing what's available. It doesn't guarantee there will be a great fit at the end of your sabbatical, but it should give numbers to guide by.
I feel like it's a bit like the stock market. You can't predict it, and timing the market may not be helpful. If you need a break - you need a break. If we imagine a graph, the damage from burnout will at some point exceed the damage of taking a break and not immediately finding a new job.
Might not be super helpful, but mental health quote I read recently was: if you're strong enough to leave, you're strong enough to find your way again afterwards.
I feel like it's a bit like the stock market. You can't predict it, and timing the market may not be helpful. If you need a break - you need a break. If we imagine a graph, the damage from burnout will at some point exceed the damage of taking a break and not immediately finding a new job.
Might not be super helpful, but mental health quote I read recently was: if you're strong enough to leave, you're strong enough to find your way again afterwards.
> If you need a break - you need a break
Who is to say that a break in the form of a sabbatical is the only way to improve OP's mental health? What about other time off, changing the structure of the work-week, changing how time is spent outside of work, therapy, etc?
> if you're strong enough to leave, you're strong enough to find your way again afterwards
This may be true about OP's individual effort, but it is a separate question whether that amount of effort (or _any_ amount of effort) will be enough to land a job in a bearish market.
Who is to say that a break in the form of a sabbatical is the only way to improve OP's mental health? What about other time off, changing the structure of the work-week, changing how time is spent outside of work, therapy, etc?
> if you're strong enough to leave, you're strong enough to find your way again afterwards
This may be true about OP's individual effort, but it is a separate question whether that amount of effort (or _any_ amount of effort) will be enough to land a job in a bearish market.
I can tell you firsthand that the ONLY cure for a shitty, soul-draining job is to quit.
As for the timing, it could be better, but it could be worse. Plenty of openings out there as long as your stack isn’t COBOL. C and Python are particularly strong for AI/ML related efforts at places like Nvidia and data science/engineering at many places, respectively. Ultimately, having a job is pointless if it kills (literally or figuratively).
OP being a PM will probably have a harder time of course, but IMO there’s no point having a job if you’re miserable.
OP being a PM will probably have a harder time of course, but IMO there’s no point having a job if you’re miserable.
> a shitty, soul-draining job
OP never described his job in that way, just that they felt burnt out. Furthermore, OP is not talking about quitting and looking for a new job, they want to to take time off, which is a different question.
If OP is in an abusive situation or is in physical danger I would agree they should quit. Otherwise I think evaluating options to make the current situation work or looking for a new position while continuing to work would be better options.
OP never described his job in that way, just that they felt burnt out. Furthermore, OP is not talking about quitting and looking for a new job, they want to to take time off, which is a different question.
If OP is in an abusive situation or is in physical danger I would agree they should quit. Otherwise I think evaluating options to make the current situation work or looking for a new position while continuing to work would be better options.
See to me if they want time off, they had a shitty, soul-draining job, whereas if it were "mild" they would likely prefer to just find a different job. Most people probably don't take time off between jobs.
Your advice helped! Thank you.
At its root, I don’t think this question is really about the logistics of taking a sabbatical.
Something I didn’t fully recognize when I was burnt out: burnout is a personal emotional issue. At that time I (mistakenly) considered emotions a bug and not a feature.
So whatever direction you decide to go on the sabbatical, I highly recommend endeavoring to discover some emotional support and growth.
Online talk therapy has helped me greatly, but mostly the book I wish I had back then is “The Happiness Trap: How to Stop Struggling and Start Living”
https://www.amazon.com/Happiness-Trap-Struggling-Start-Livin...
Something I didn’t fully recognize when I was burnt out: burnout is a personal emotional issue. At that time I (mistakenly) considered emotions a bug and not a feature.
So whatever direction you decide to go on the sabbatical, I highly recommend endeavoring to discover some emotional support and growth.
Online talk therapy has helped me greatly, but mostly the book I wish I had back then is “The Happiness Trap: How to Stop Struggling and Start Living”
https://www.amazon.com/Happiness-Trap-Struggling-Start-Livin...
Thank you;
That book has some good exercises when I skimmed through it today. Thanks for the suggestion.
I don't think the startup is going to factor in that you worked 12 years without a break when evaluating your request.
I think it depends on the stage of the startup, and how much of a key employee you are to it. Can they afford to have you away for that long? Do they have a PTO accrual policy? Have you been making use of it? Do you have at least 6 months of savings for bills / rent should you not have a job? Also consider the expenditures you'll have while taking the sabbatical with half the household income.
A strategy I used to do was that I took unpaid PTO when I wanted time off to let the PTO accrue, then took all of it at once when it maxed out (when that happened, I was on PTO for a month and half) after finishing a major project that took a year to complete. The PTO would also increase in value as I got raises over time.
The company wised up and stopped letting people do unpaid PTO if you had PTO to use because of me.
Even if it's unpaid leave, they still have to pay for your benefits while you're away I think.
Going on the face value of what your original post says, it sounds like a very risky thing to do. PMs are going to have a significantly more difficult time getting a job than an engineer I think.
I think it depends on the stage of the startup, and how much of a key employee you are to it. Can they afford to have you away for that long? Do they have a PTO accrual policy? Have you been making use of it? Do you have at least 6 months of savings for bills / rent should you not have a job? Also consider the expenditures you'll have while taking the sabbatical with half the household income.
A strategy I used to do was that I took unpaid PTO when I wanted time off to let the PTO accrue, then took all of it at once when it maxed out (when that happened, I was on PTO for a month and half) after finishing a major project that took a year to complete. The PTO would also increase in value as I got raises over time.
The company wised up and stopped letting people do unpaid PTO if you had PTO to use because of me.
Even if it's unpaid leave, they still have to pay for your benefits while you're away I think.
Going on the face value of what your original post says, it sounds like a very risky thing to do. PMs are going to have a significantly more difficult time getting a job than an engineer I think.
> unpaid PTO
I think that's UTO :-)
I think that's UTO :-)
lol yes thank you
>I think that's UTO :-)
In some places, "PTO" stands for "Personal Time Off". In those places, there can be paid PTO and unpaid PTO.
In some places, "PTO" stands for "Personal Time Off". In those places, there can be paid PTO and unpaid PTO.
> Going on the face value of what your original post says, it sounds like a very risky thing to do. PMs are going to have a significantly more difficult time getting a job than an engineer I think.
OP said he was a dev for 10 years and recently switched over to being a PM. If PMs suddenly became less hirable than developers, perhaps he could switch back?
I also started out as a developer, got into product and then project manager, so I'm crossing my fingers, hoping that I can fall back on my "base" of software development if things go south.
OP said he was a dev for 10 years and recently switched over to being a PM. If PMs suddenly became less hirable than developers, perhaps he could switch back?
I also started out as a developer, got into product and then project manager, so I'm crossing my fingers, hoping that I can fall back on my "base" of software development if things go south.
That’s always an option, I think. I have some references I can use to get back into dev if required. Thanks so much.
Thank you so much.
In the pro column: Capital is cracking the whip, that means less opportunities for rewards for the rank and file. This is a great time to take a break and save energy for a time where efforts are more likely to be rewarded.
Sucks to be rank and file at times but this is a valid point, inline with my personal impressions as well
I just took a 3 month break after working 12 years almost non stop.
Rebuilt my kitchen (manual work, accomplishments, yay!), visited some cool places, reconnected with old friends.
Didn’t think about work for _weeks_, at least.
Even though there’s nothing good in the horizon, yet, and, quite honestly, the money is drying up, I’m glad I took that break.
Would have been pretty miserable by now.
Burn out is not worth it.
Rebuilt my kitchen (manual work, accomplishments, yay!), visited some cool places, reconnected with old friends.
Didn’t think about work for _weeks_, at least.
Even though there’s nothing good in the horizon, yet, and, quite honestly, the money is drying up, I’m glad I took that break.
Would have been pretty miserable by now.
Burn out is not worth it.
Thank you! Are you still on a break? Good luck with finding a new one!
A dangerous move, indeed! It's not the greatest employment market to be taking such a risk. Having said that, you have to weigh ALL of the risks for your situation. Since you fear you might be on the verge of burnout, my opinion is that you must take a break despite the risks. I say this because I once knew someone who suffered burnout, and it took them FOUR YEARS to finally be able to return to the work force. A four month self-imposed break looks a lot better than four years of being unable to work. You may struggle to find work if we wind up in a recession four months from now, but a four month break after so many years in the industry should not raise any big red flags with employers. You don't want to work for any manager who would label you as lazy for taking four months off after so many years.
Thank you!
It’s always going to feel risky until you do it. Once you do, you’ll see that it isn’t quite as scary as you think. An added bonus, if in the future you ever do find yourself temporarily out of work you’ll know it’s not the end of the world.
I took a sabbatical April of 22, thinking I would take 3 months off, it took a full year before I felt like I was ready to go back to work. Taking off was one of the best decisions I’ve ever made. I’ve spent more time with my family, been able to pursue some hobbies I previously didn’t have time for, and have cultivated stronger relationships because I’ve been able to spend time with people I care for. In short, do it. You won’t regret it.
I took a sabbatical April of 22, thinking I would take 3 months off, it took a full year before I felt like I was ready to go back to work. Taking off was one of the best decisions I’ve ever made. I’ve spent more time with my family, been able to pursue some hobbies I previously didn’t have time for, and have cultivated stronger relationships because I’ve been able to spend time with people I care for. In short, do it. You won’t regret it.
File for an LLC (or whatever legal entity is available to you locally), take your break, and when you're ready to come back put whatever you want under it for what you are interested in doing after the sabbatical.
I think this is good advice but curious on the specifics of this - what is the benefit of the legal designation of an LLC (or whatever corp) instead of "self study"-type of thing?
LLC is good for legitimacy but is it supposed to look good on a resume or something?
Edit: Specifically curious if the LLC is supposed to fill-in as legit taxable paid work in-event-of-emergency or just gap-filler
LLC is good for legitimacy but is it supposed to look good on a resume or something?
Edit: Specifically curious if the LLC is supposed to fill-in as legit taxable paid work in-event-of-emergency or just gap-filler
A resume is for kicking off talking points with the potential employer. Employment gaps can be misconstrued and not easily explainable on a resume. LLC adds some plausible deniability in any way you want it to, protecting your work history, similar to it protecting your liability.
Maybe you just did self study, but you did it as RealWork™ that your future employer will understand because they want SeriousPeople. It just allows you to drive the conversation the way you want to in a more controlled way. You could say Sole Proprietorship or Self Study, but I've found having an LLC is more receptive.
Maybe you just did self study, but you did it as RealWork™ that your future employer will understand because they want SeriousPeople. It just allows you to drive the conversation the way you want to in a more controlled way. You could say Sole Proprietorship or Self Study, but I've found having an LLC is more receptive.
Yep this is for any gaps in a resume or even trying to skip junior positions
It sounds like you haven’t been using vacation time, or am I misunderstanding?
Don’t forget to just take a lot of regular vacation time, especially if your company is one of those “unlimited” shops. Until you get a nastygram from HR I would just take whatever time you want off and don’t worry about using too much of it. Typically as long as you don’t exceed about 2 or 3 weeks at a time you’re fine.
If your employer doesn’t give you at least 20 days plus holidays, shop around for employers.
If your employer has separate sick days, don’t forget to “randomly” use those in a realistic fashion.
I’m also generally in favor of a sabbatical. Don’t quit your job, asked for extended unpaid leave. I think they’d hold your position for you as long as your leave isn’t a huge amount of time, hiring a new employee takes a lot of money and time.
Another idea is to apply for companies that have 4 day 32-hour work weeks.
Don’t forget to just take a lot of regular vacation time, especially if your company is one of those “unlimited” shops. Until you get a nastygram from HR I would just take whatever time you want off and don’t worry about using too much of it. Typically as long as you don’t exceed about 2 or 3 weeks at a time you’re fine.
If your employer doesn’t give you at least 20 days plus holidays, shop around for employers.
If your employer has separate sick days, don’t forget to “randomly” use those in a realistic fashion.
I’m also generally in favor of a sabbatical. Don’t quit your job, asked for extended unpaid leave. I think they’d hold your position for you as long as your leave isn’t a huge amount of time, hiring a new employee takes a lot of money and time.
Another idea is to apply for companies that have 4 day 32-hour work weeks.
My friends in the same position took a break for two years that ended a couple of weeks ago. They've got jobs here in San Francisco. I can't speak for anywhere else but here you'll be fine.
Burnout is an emotional, mental and physical exhaustion. It can lead to depression so I would treat it as your body telling you something is wrong.
Maybe start with a two-three possibly four week vacation totally unplugged and see if that helps you.
However, you need to take a step back and look at the forest rather than the trees with respect to the demands being made of you (and that you say 'yes' to). These can be family demands, work demands etc... They build and build causing stress eventually leading to burnout and possibly depression. Also a question to ask yourself is "are these demands asked of me aligned with my values?". Many times we are living the lives of other people and not our own. So you experience an emotional dissonance.
You also have to let go of the things you cannot control. You can't control the economy, you can't even control your job or necessarily the fate of your startup itself. If you stay, your company could implode. Since you have two incomes and can make some sacrifices maybe things will be ok.
Also while you are on sabbatical or vacation or just in general you probably need to learn some stress management skills. I would take up mindfulness meditation and see what that brings you. Connect with the present. Explore your mind body connection. The people really into meditation say it works so may as well give it a serious try.
Clearly something has to change and that could be something a simple as your perspective.
Also I'm not really writing to you here, but rather as a note to myself.
Maybe start with a two-three possibly four week vacation totally unplugged and see if that helps you.
However, you need to take a step back and look at the forest rather than the trees with respect to the demands being made of you (and that you say 'yes' to). These can be family demands, work demands etc... They build and build causing stress eventually leading to burnout and possibly depression. Also a question to ask yourself is "are these demands asked of me aligned with my values?". Many times we are living the lives of other people and not our own. So you experience an emotional dissonance.
You also have to let go of the things you cannot control. You can't control the economy, you can't even control your job or necessarily the fate of your startup itself. If you stay, your company could implode. Since you have two incomes and can make some sacrifices maybe things will be ok.
Also while you are on sabbatical or vacation or just in general you probably need to learn some stress management skills. I would take up mindfulness meditation and see what that brings you. Connect with the present. Explore your mind body connection. The people really into meditation say it works so may as well give it a serious try.
Clearly something has to change and that could be something a simple as your perspective.
Also I'm not really writing to you here, but rather as a note to myself.
Thanks so much for the note, even if it’s to yourself. Very much appreciated!
12 years? This is not a startup anymore.
Are you sure you're not really just done with a stagnant business and ready for something fresh? Have you been considering the opportunity cost of staying at a single startup for 12 years? It's generally a 1-year vesting cliff for a reason...
As far as if it's a good time for a sabbatical in terms of the economy/job market, I have nothing sufficiently informed to contribute.
Are you sure you're not really just done with a stagnant business and ready for something fresh? Have you been considering the opportunity cost of staying at a single startup for 12 years? It's generally a 1-year vesting cliff for a reason...
As far as if it's a good time for a sabbatical in terms of the economy/job market, I have nothing sufficiently informed to contribute.
Thanks for your question. Total experience is 12 years and a little more than a year at this startup.
I'm 14months into my 6month break from work. Idk about pm, but as as an engineer it's been rough and stressful trying to get a job right now.
The first months were amazing, I felt great even started coding again for fun. The last six months, even without working have almost undone all that refreshed feeling and given me a refreshed hatered of corporate America.
The first months were amazing, I felt great even started coding again for fun. The last six months, even without working have almost undone all that refreshed feeling and given me a refreshed hatered of corporate America.
If the choice is between burning out and taking a sabbatical to get a break, take the sabbatical.
My only advice is: structure the sabbatical in some way. Give yourself some OKRs. Doesn't matter what they are. If you don't you'll find yourself at the start of the last month wondering where the time went (and, in my case, extending another few months).
Second piece of advice: set up a job to return to before you take the break. Once you leave the company/organization, regardless of the terms, it's much more difficult to line up roles. Lining up a role is never a guarantee, of course, but it's better than waiting until the last month and trying to get rehired.
Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34971129 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27238018
My only advice is: structure the sabbatical in some way. Give yourself some OKRs. Doesn't matter what they are. If you don't you'll find yourself at the start of the last month wondering where the time went (and, in my case, extending another few months).
Second piece of advice: set up a job to return to before you take the break. Once you leave the company/organization, regardless of the terms, it's much more difficult to line up roles. Lining up a role is never a guarantee, of course, but it's better than waiting until the last month and trying to get rehired.
Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34971129 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27238018
Thank you! Wonderful advice! Much appreciated..
The first point of call is your current job, find out the maximum amount of unpaid leave you can get and still come back to it. I have done this before and got 3 months off.
Another option is look for another job, with a starting date set in the future.
Q. Are you in an at-will employment jurisdiction? Or do you have more rights?
Another option is look for another job, with a starting date set in the future.
Q. Are you in an at-will employment jurisdiction? Or do you have more rights?
Can you save up enough so that if you don't find work for a year, you'll be fine?
Thank you! Yeah; can probably do a few years on savings alone, but have a supportive partner who works as well.
I'm going to eat the internet point price for saying this, because it's important for you to know this if it applies to you.
If you are a straight white man now is absolutely a terrible time to go on a sabbatical. The DEI initiatives in tech are in full swing, and I'm personally familiar with many many cases where those applicants are summarily rejected without any consideration whatsoever.
If you are a straight white man now is absolutely a terrible time to go on a sabbatical. The DEI initiatives in tech are in full swing, and I'm personally familiar with many many cases where those applicants are summarily rejected without any consideration whatsoever.
Life is short. There will always be work. Live now, worry about what may or may not come to pass as it comes to pass. You will not regret taking a sabbatical, traveling the world, learning new skills, and picking up new hobbies on your deathbed, even if it meant you lost your job. You will regret not taking more adventures and trips around this beautiful planet.
> There will always be work
Not for a job in tech in this current economy.
Not for a job in tech in this current economy.
Regardless of whether or not it is a bad time, if things start getting bad DO NOT risk burn out. It is a terrible experience. It took me half a year before I could even work on personal programming projects that interested me.
Could you start with a 2 - 6 months paid sick leave, due to burnout? Or at least, maybe you don't need to quit the job, just take a long leave and return in the next 6 - 12 months?
Usually this is called a "leave of absence" in which the employer grants unpaid time off, but the position is still reserved for the employee when they return. I have only seen a few employees request these in the past, though employers are probably open to other terms if they are willing to entertain this type of request in the first place
Nah. It's never a bad time for that.