Hello, stranger – Talking to random people(willem.com)
willem.com
Hello, stranger – Talking to random people
https://willem.com/blog/2023-10-13_hello-stranger/
161 comments
I, too, talk to random people.
For some reason, apparently, I look like the kind of person people should open up to, and so they approach me and oh boy do they open up. I get the crazies - moon landing denialists, people who think other people are secretly wolves, flat earthers who say "I thought you looked like a fellow traveler", various apparnet schizophrenics who hand me 50+ page printed resumes (not a joke or exaggeration), chain smokers who think I can help them with their struggles with their mothers, people claiming to have taken part in Ross Perot's Iran hostage rescue, young women who urgently want to have sex right now without a condom (I am not good looking and they are usually shaking or twitching and often wandering around in sweat pants), and so on. I've even met famous people more than once, well, dopplegangers had taken over their lives so they'd lost their fame - it had been stolen.
I generally like talking to people, and will happily talk to total strangers, but given my experience I am hesitant to initiate conversations - because i wonder - sure, I don't believe in weird outlandish things, but what if I am also a crazy? Do the crazies know what they are? And so I don't.
For some reason, apparently, I look like the kind of person people should open up to, and so they approach me and oh boy do they open up. I get the crazies - moon landing denialists, people who think other people are secretly wolves, flat earthers who say "I thought you looked like a fellow traveler", various apparnet schizophrenics who hand me 50+ page printed resumes (not a joke or exaggeration), chain smokers who think I can help them with their struggles with their mothers, people claiming to have taken part in Ross Perot's Iran hostage rescue, young women who urgently want to have sex right now without a condom (I am not good looking and they are usually shaking or twitching and often wandering around in sweat pants), and so on. I've even met famous people more than once, well, dopplegangers had taken over their lives so they'd lost their fame - it had been stolen.
I generally like talking to people, and will happily talk to total strangers, but given my experience I am hesitant to initiate conversations - because i wonder - sure, I don't believe in weird outlandish things, but what if I am also a crazy? Do the crazies know what they are? And so I don't.
I don't find I'm approached by the "crazies" on the street, but put me at a meetup, and they seek me out!
You wouldn't regret talking to me because I would hopefully be polite about it. But I'd rather you didn't.
Now to admit my hippocrite bonafides: I talked to a random guy the other day, and we both seemed to enjoy it. But we were unexpectedly in each other's way at a boat ramp, and in exchange for asking him to move his trailer, I offered to help him move stuff. He refused my help, I stubbornly loaded my boat up myself without asking for his help (though I needed it) and we had a nice chat by the car window on the way out. I think I liked talking to him because he seemed equally happy to be as stubborn and introverted as me. :)
Now to admit my hippocrite bonafides: I talked to a random guy the other day, and we both seemed to enjoy it. But we were unexpectedly in each other's way at a boat ramp, and in exchange for asking him to move his trailer, I offered to help him move stuff. He refused my help, I stubbornly loaded my boat up myself without asking for his help (though I needed it) and we had a nice chat by the car window on the way out. I think I liked talking to him because he seemed equally happy to be as stubborn and introverted as me. :)
If you still have access to the original wallet with that first bitcoin, you could check if the originating address has had any recent transactions and if yes, send a small hello.
Don't forget to read the room, culturally. In Northern Europe I would wager that most people would not appreciate random small talk from strangers as much as Americans do, I know I don't.
Yep, German here. It‘s really awkward and almost only older people do it. I‘m always sorry for them because I figure they are quite lonely, but inside I‘m thinking “Please, just leave me alone.“
Was this a cultural thing with your girlfriend? Or rather OCD? Or was she an extreme extrovert?
> Sometimes people don't want to talk, and that is easily noticeable.
That's nice to see.
I'm friendly and comfortable talking to strangers but usually avoid it because folks tend to draw it out.
That's nice to see.
I'm friendly and comfortable talking to strangers but usually avoid it because folks tend to draw it out.
> Even a short and simple conversation can make you feel good.
I think when people prefer to use a digital kiosk, it's sometimes because they have had negative experiences of conversations with service staff. For example, a staff member might give you a funny look if you order something weird, hurry you along if you're pausing a lot, or force you to say "no" when they offer extras. I know that's where my mind goes! Of course short conversations can - and often do - make you feel good, we as humans are not great at focusing on that.
I think when people prefer to use a digital kiosk, it's sometimes because they have had negative experiences of conversations with service staff. For example, a staff member might give you a funny look if you order something weird, hurry you along if you're pausing a lot, or force you to say "no" when they offer extras. I know that's where my mind goes! Of course short conversations can - and often do - make you feel good, we as humans are not great at focusing on that.
It's sad for me to admit this but I find online ordering especially for fast food in my area is a much better experience because it standardizes the presentation of the order details for the cashier. When I speak to a human being however I often run into language barriers immediately, and as a result my orders get screwed up more often.
The other side of this coin is that many people take forever at the digital kiosk. If there aren’t enough kiosks and the location is a busy one, I’ll actively avoid that place.
I might as well figure out how to use their website/app at that point.
But all of this leads us further down the path of abstracting/hiding the reality of the purchasing decisions we make. I can’t help but feel this all chips away at our collective humanity.
I might as well figure out how to use their website/app at that point.
But all of this leads us further down the path of abstracting/hiding the reality of the purchasing decisions we make. I can’t help but feel this all chips away at our collective humanity.
Yeah a new amazing matcha drink/ice cream place opened at my area. There is always a long line out the door, so I went there to check it out. It was amazing, but the real reason for the long line is that the kiosk wanted an SMS confirmation to place the order.
There was a very tiny "skip" button but most people ahead of me probably didn't see it.
There was a very tiny "skip" button but most people ahead of me probably didn't see it.
You've never been stuck in a line where the guy at the front is spending forever?
I have been stuck in those lines.
But the average time taken by each and every person at self serve lines seems to be higher, because not only does the person need to decide what they want to order, they also need to figure out the UI at the same time. And there seems to be more choice paralysis when the primary way the customer consumes the menu is the moment they walk up to the kiosk.
In a traditional line, half of the ordering process is typically handled by an individual already trained to rapidly enter the order details, and in most cases, the person ordering knows what they want by the time it’s their turn.
These kiosks are about optimizing cost, and just about everything about the end user experience seems worse.
But the average time taken by each and every person at self serve lines seems to be higher, because not only does the person need to decide what they want to order, they also need to figure out the UI at the same time. And there seems to be more choice paralysis when the primary way the customer consumes the menu is the moment they walk up to the kiosk.
In a traditional line, half of the ordering process is typically handled by an individual already trained to rapidly enter the order details, and in most cases, the person ordering knows what they want by the time it’s their turn.
These kiosks are about optimizing cost, and just about everything about the end user experience seems worse.
I can (usually) manage self-checkout at a grocery store, but I find self-service kiosks for ordering fast food to be paralyzing.
There's no way to ask questions. It's not always clear what's on the ingredients list, or how big a particular menu item is, or if a side of rice/bread is included. If I want to ask them not to put something on an order, or to add something extra, I have to go through the entire workflow and then sometimes backtrack. I'm semi-regularly surprised by what I get, and they also usually don't accept cash. The instructions for how to pick up an order and what identifying information to provide are also often unclear.
Sure, I sometimes get something slightly different from what I wanted when I order from a human, but I usually get something at least close. I think I've had a serious mix-up once in my entire life, when ordering in German from someone else who spoke German as a second language. Even then, the server looked confused and double-checked, it was only my own stubbornness regarding my language proficiency that caused a problem.
There's no way to ask questions. It's not always clear what's on the ingredients list, or how big a particular menu item is, or if a side of rice/bread is included. If I want to ask them not to put something on an order, or to add something extra, I have to go through the entire workflow and then sometimes backtrack. I'm semi-regularly surprised by what I get, and they also usually don't accept cash. The instructions for how to pick up an order and what identifying information to provide are also often unclear.
Sure, I sometimes get something slightly different from what I wanted when I order from a human, but I usually get something at least close. I think I've had a serious mix-up once in my entire life, when ordering in German from someone else who spoke German as a second language. Even then, the server looked confused and double-checked, it was only my own stubbornness regarding my language proficiency that caused a problem.
At fast food restaurants in Canadian cities, I've found that ordering using a kiosk is often the only way to place a complete and correct order.
Due to Canada's immigration policies and economic policies, retail and fast food jobs that used to be done by local high school or college students are now often done by foreign-born adults instead. Unfortunately, many of these staff have poor English and/or French skills.
When ordering a meal verbally, miscommunications and misunderstandings creep in far too easily, even for what used to be simple and routine orders.
At first, I thought I was being unclear in some way, but more and more I started noticing the same thing happening to other people who were ordering before or after me. Communication issues that just didn't exist before have become the norm.
Thanks to this and skyrocketing prices, I don't go to fast food restaurants as often as I'd like to. If a place doesn't have a kiosk for ordering, I'll just leave.
Due to Canada's immigration policies and economic policies, retail and fast food jobs that used to be done by local high school or college students are now often done by foreign-born adults instead. Unfortunately, many of these staff have poor English and/or French skills.
When ordering a meal verbally, miscommunications and misunderstandings creep in far too easily, even for what used to be simple and routine orders.
At first, I thought I was being unclear in some way, but more and more I started noticing the same thing happening to other people who were ordering before or after me. Communication issues that just didn't exist before have become the norm.
Thanks to this and skyrocketing prices, I don't go to fast food restaurants as often as I'd like to. If a place doesn't have a kiosk for ordering, I'll just leave.
That could be.
Personally, I detest using digital kiosks and strongly prefer placing my order with a human, even if your examples happen.
I stopped going to a sandwich shop I used to visit nearly every workday because they switched to a kiosk to place your sandwich order.
Personally, I detest using digital kiosks and strongly prefer placing my order with a human, even if your examples happen.
I stopped going to a sandwich shop I used to visit nearly every workday because they switched to a kiosk to place your sandwich order.
Did you tell them why?
If you want to stop kiosks, it's not enough for you to vote with your feet. They need to know why you voted with your feet. And the place you switch to also needs to know why.
If you want to stop kiosks, it's not enough for you to vote with your feet. They need to know why you voted with your feet. And the place you switch to also needs to know why.
I did, yes. I didn't switch to a new place because there's a lack of eateries in the vicinity of my workplace. I just started bringing my own lunch instead (which is probably healthier!)
Tell them, tell them now!
Is it really kiosk only? I've only ever seen kiosk as an optional with staff at the counter ready to serve.
What do they do at that store if there's a failure on the kiosk or they have to go down for maintenence etc?
Not doubting your story but even as someone who avoids places without kiosks I find that a pretty drastic change.
What do they do at that store if there's a failure on the kiosk or they have to go down for maintenence etc?
Not doubting your story but even as someone who avoids places without kiosks I find that a pretty drastic change.
I stopped going to a sandwich shop because they had QR codes of their menu posted while lining up.
If you can print the QR code why can't you just print the damn menu?
I hate mobile menus, 95% of them are hard to use, most have jumpy scrolling where the thing you're looking at doesn't stay put on the screen as the rest of the page loads (goddamn, use "width" and "height" on your images...), some even throw GDPR popups at you, all kinds of nonsense.
If you can print the QR code why can't you just print the damn menu?
I hate mobile menus, 95% of them are hard to use, most have jumpy scrolling where the thing you're looking at doesn't stay put on the screen as the rest of the page loads (goddamn, use "width" and "height" on your images...), some even throw GDPR popups at you, all kinds of nonsense.
While I agree mobile menus are lacking, at least you don't have to reprint the QR code when the menu changes. You can also update an online menu with things that have run out, special deals etc...
Sadly the kiosk also forces you to tap the "no" button on the screen for multiple extras. One screen at a time.
People don't get the same emotional response from saying no to a screen that they do when saying no to a person.
I find it much more annoying with a machine than with a person. With a person, I can shortcut the process. With a machine, I can't.
That might be so on a psychological level the average person will have a harder time saying no to the human and avoiding the upsale. Clicking No a couple of times can be annoying but so can leaving the store with product you didn't want and the feeling you lost money you didn't want to spend.
The verbal equivalent of angrily stabbing the "no" button would make you famous for all the wrong reasons.
Even the manned checkouts require you to interact with a payment terminal a lot of the time, often with multiple questions to answer.
I don't like the experience of self-service ordering kiosks and checkouts. But usually when I am in a hurry I prefer using them, because unless the software is completely brain dead, the experience is faster.
I do it because the kids can’t make up their minds and I don’t want to make everyone else wait while I beg the kids to say what they want.
While enjoying my fresh wok lunch in Amsterdam, I noticed something odd: other folks coming in for something to eat ignored the person standing at the counter, preferring to order through a digital kiosk. The crazy thing about this? They are just centimetres apart!
In fact, they are so close that the staff member peeks at the display to get a head start on picking the right vegetables – all without any words spoken. Now, I get it: modern technology allows us to be more efficient, but I think I might be witnessing something deeper: we prefer not to talk to each other anymore.
I decided to dive into this and do a little experiment: talk (more often) to strangers.
I made this blog post to tell you about it, give it a try!
In fact, they are so close that the staff member peeks at the display to get a head start on picking the right vegetables – all without any words spoken. Now, I get it: modern technology allows us to be more efficient, but I think I might be witnessing something deeper: we prefer not to talk to each other anymore.
I decided to dive into this and do a little experiment: talk (more often) to strangers.
I made this blog post to tell you about it, give it a try!
I think I might be witnessing something deeper: we prefer not to talk to each other anymore.
I'm happy to smalltalk with strangers, but I use the machines as I hate ambiguity. I often had orders misheard or misunderstood and prefer to explicitly select and see what I want in an unambiguous way, if I can.
Even with something as a single drink this can become a problem.. a venti soy mocha frappuccino with vegan whipped cream or whatever, let alone when you might have several people's orders to make at once and not mess up.
Talking to strangers is great fun, and the ambiguity there can make it more so! Relaying and verifying precise information to a stranger? Not fun.
I'm happy to smalltalk with strangers, but I use the machines as I hate ambiguity. I often had orders misheard or misunderstood and prefer to explicitly select and see what I want in an unambiguous way, if I can.
Even with something as a single drink this can become a problem.. a venti soy mocha frappuccino with vegan whipped cream or whatever, let alone when you might have several people's orders to make at once and not mess up.
Talking to strangers is great fun, and the ambiguity there can make it more so! Relaying and verifying precise information to a stranger? Not fun.
> I'm happy to smalltalk with strangers, but I use the machines as I hate ambiguity.
Yeah, I admire the patience of people who have the energy/patience/motivation to overcome misunderstanding with other people.
I also dislike all sorts of ML/AI/algo features for similar reasons, when it pretends to be a machine but is vague like human (or worse) it's the worst.
Yeah, I admire the patience of people who have the energy/patience/motivation to overcome misunderstanding with other people.
I also dislike all sorts of ML/AI/algo features for similar reasons, when it pretends to be a machine but is vague like human (or worse) it's the worst.
Curiously I've had different experiences with automation. When Burger King started with it, they'd punch in your order (hopefully correctly) then print it and post it where the kitchen could see it. Then read it out over a loudspeaker in the kitchen.
The cooks would do whatever back there, put it in a bag and staple some random receipt to the bag. You'd get (some) bag with some receipt and probably not your order.
In a group of five or six, routinely three of us had to go back and get it fixed. It was a standing joke.
So automation has to be done right or it's just another chance to introduce noise in the signal.
The cooks would do whatever back there, put it in a bag and staple some random receipt to the bag. You'd get (some) bag with some receipt and probably not your order.
In a group of five or six, routinely three of us had to go back and get it fixed. It was a standing joke.
So automation has to be done right or it's just another chance to introduce noise in the signal.
I talk to strangers all the time. I'm from abroad and agree that it's a pity here in the Netherlands that it's not more common or accepted.
But I still prefer digital kiosks. It gives me more time to go over the menu and compare the prices of different combinations, discover more options, and I can give more exact instructions about how I need it to be prepared etc.
Talking to strangers is fantastic but the meaningful difference between given your Big Mac order to a human rather than a screen is minimal.
But I still prefer digital kiosks. It gives me more time to go over the menu and compare the prices of different combinations, discover more options, and I can give more exact instructions about how I need it to be prepared etc.
Talking to strangers is fantastic but the meaningful difference between given your Big Mac order to a human rather than a screen is minimal.
The screen never smiles. It never makes eye contact. Sometimes the people do.
I understand that but I speak with many other smiling eye contracting people throughout the day who also converse with me and get to know me outside of my wedding no cheese on my burger.
Like I say it's great to meet new people and to build human connection in your life. I'm just not convinced that avoiding order screens is the thing to focus on for achieving that goal.
Like I say it's great to meet new people and to build human connection in your life. I'm just not convinced that avoiding order screens is the thing to focus on for achieving that goal.
Reading the rest of the comments, it's like there's a huge contingent of people that just hate interacting with other humans and it's terrifying. I am an introvert, not great at striking conversations with strangers, yet I must be one one of the most extroverted people in this thread.
"It's exhausting to say no to a person." Like, really?
"It's exhausting to say no to a person." Like, really?
Hmm, maybe that's it. I also am an introvert, though an extroverted introvert - I need some human contact, but I also find it draining in much more than small doses. So maybe that's why I like the checkout line - it's a socially-appropriate human contact that I can cause to happen just by getting in the line.
Same, there is a difference between being an introvert and a misanthrope. Saying hello, a couple well-rehearsed words, thank you with half a smile is just enough day-in-day-out social interaction to keep me sane and recharge my tiny social energy stores. Maybe it's because in Europe where I live store clerks are supposed to put a little effort in being polite if not welcoming.
Interacting only with machines is the saddest thing I can imagine doing for myself.
Interacting only with machines is the saddest thing I can imagine doing for myself.
Great idea, and worth mentioning!
Every day I talk to random people. Eat breakfast at a lunch counter and greet anybody who sits nearby. Last one was a medical student, asked if he knew my daughter-in-law, he remembered her! She's on to Residency now; he's doing some rounds or something, he wasn't clear, but it was his day off(!) and he planned to slack, take a walk, anything but be in the hospital.
I know all the staff at the diner by name, and something about their lives. I've seen Steven's brother's wedding pictures, know about Izzy's poor puppy and his problems. Stephanie is looking for work in marketing management. Madison has been working the family restaurant business since she was four!
The grocery-store mention works for me too. I say something about whatever folks have going on. "Wow you buy healthier stuff than me!" is a good start, even if it isn't true. Or "You must be shopping for a crew!" gets a good response - everybody like to talk about their kids. Or even "Wow it's raining cats and dogs!" and suchlike.
I endorse this idea, that we're all passengers on this trip and should get to know our nearby voyagers if at all possible.
Every day I talk to random people. Eat breakfast at a lunch counter and greet anybody who sits nearby. Last one was a medical student, asked if he knew my daughter-in-law, he remembered her! She's on to Residency now; he's doing some rounds or something, he wasn't clear, but it was his day off(!) and he planned to slack, take a walk, anything but be in the hospital.
I know all the staff at the diner by name, and something about their lives. I've seen Steven's brother's wedding pictures, know about Izzy's poor puppy and his problems. Stephanie is looking for work in marketing management. Madison has been working the family restaurant business since she was four!
The grocery-store mention works for me too. I say something about whatever folks have going on. "Wow you buy healthier stuff than me!" is a good start, even if it isn't true. Or "You must be shopping for a crew!" gets a good response - everybody like to talk about their kids. Or even "Wow it's raining cats and dogs!" and suchlike.
I endorse this idea, that we're all passengers on this trip and should get to know our nearby voyagers if at all possible.
On that specific example, I have a drugstore near my home that I go to regularly for miscellaneous things. There are one or two humans at checkouts, and two self checkouts. The self checkout is almost always (with the only exception being someone who hasn't used the machine before) much faster. I'm talking like half or a third the time to use.
Same with the grocery stores near me. Nothing wrong with the cashiers, but it's just so much faster to checkout for myself. I've found the same at restaurants as well. I get full exploration of the options at a kiosk, kind of like the benefits of a GUI vs TUI interface. The menu rarely has all the options (at least around me).
Same with the grocery stores near me. Nothing wrong with the cashiers, but it's just so much faster to checkout for myself. I've found the same at restaurants as well. I get full exploration of the options at a kiosk, kind of like the benefits of a GUI vs TUI interface. The menu rarely has all the options (at least around me).
In the supermarket it's 50/50 for me, sometimes the selfscan checkout, other times I put my groceries on the conveyor belt. On the way to the supermarket though, I made a habit of smiling, greeting and eye contact with everybody I encounter. It always adds something extra to the day, greeting a stranger and having a short connection. Always. I had to practice a bit, because not getting any acknowledgement back might feel as a discard at first. Not anymore.
BTW, do you see any difference between Amsterdam and Limburg?
BTW, do you see any difference between Amsterdam and Limburg?
Here in Limburg folks speak in their own dialect. They immediately hear that I am "not one of them" (although I understand their language well). Sometimes that's an advantage (as it invokes curiosity), but moreover they'll treat you with a little more "distance"; I often feel an outsider here.
In Amsterdam it greatly differs per area. My office is located in Amsterdam-Zuidoost where a lot of different cultures mix and mingle. In that neighbourhood I feel particularly 'free' to talk to strangers. My experience may be biased however as I know these folks a little better because of my work as volunteer in Amsterdam Venserpolder (another post on that can be found here: http://willem.com/blog/volunteer).
I try to balance it, like yourself. It also depends on my 'mood and energy', with two young kids I sometimes don't have the "power" to engage in talking to strangers - but when I do, it is often very rewarding.
In Amsterdam it greatly differs per area. My office is located in Amsterdam-Zuidoost where a lot of different cultures mix and mingle. In that neighbourhood I feel particularly 'free' to talk to strangers. My experience may be biased however as I know these folks a little better because of my work as volunteer in Amsterdam Venserpolder (another post on that can be found here: http://willem.com/blog/volunteer).
I try to balance it, like yourself. It also depends on my 'mood and energy', with two young kids I sometimes don't have the "power" to engage in talking to strangers - but when I do, it is often very rewarding.
For me, at a fast food place I massively prefer the digital kiosk because it allows me to browse the menu in detail. They usually don’t have a full detailed paper menu so this is the best alternative. If I ask questions at the counter, at some point I feel pressured and just pick something because I feel I’m taking up too much time. It’s just a better, more accurate ordering experience for me.
> I noticed something odd: other folks coming in for something to eat ignored the person standing at the counter, preferring to order through a digital kiosk. The crazy thing about this?
This reduces costs by reducing man hours. This increases communication since you are not playing telephone.
Literally everyone wins.
Wouldn't you rather spend the 20 seconds talking to your buddy or 20 seconds asking where to put the credit card?
This reduces costs by reducing man hours. This increases communication since you are not playing telephone.
Literally everyone wins.
Wouldn't you rather spend the 20 seconds talking to your buddy or 20 seconds asking where to put the credit card?
> other folks coming in for something to eat ignored the person standing at the counter, preferring to order through a digital kiosk.
I just assume those humans at the workplace have other tasks--even just idle daydreams--they'd rather be spending their time on, especially when they aren't making signals that they'd love to chat.
I just assume those humans at the workplace have other tasks--even just idle daydreams--they'd rather be spending their time on, especially when they aren't making signals that they'd love to chat.
I talk to strangers and also will use a digital kiosk where possible. I hadn't realised the incongruity until you just pointed it out...
I suspect its because I generally talk to strangers to have a proper multiminute convo and find brief interactions either pointless or stressful.
I suspect its because I generally talk to strangers to have a proper multiminute convo and find brief interactions either pointless or stressful.
> we prefer not to talk to each other anymore
The "we" here being "The Dutch". Pretty much everywhere (other than Eastern Europe maybe) is it easier to talk to random strangers. I've also never seen any place where it's more socially accepted to be a complete dickhead to strangers (other than locals in overcrowded tourists destinations, but that's a special case). After spending a few years abroad I found it absolutely shocking.
The "we" here being "The Dutch". Pretty much everywhere (other than Eastern Europe maybe) is it easier to talk to random strangers. I've also never seen any place where it's more socially accepted to be a complete dickhead to strangers (other than locals in overcrowded tourists destinations, but that's a special case). After spending a few years abroad I found it absolutely shocking.
I understand that this may give you a bit of joy, but I beg you to reconsider randomly talking to people on the street. I know you're trying to judge whether folks are open to it based on body language, but you need to understand that people who start conversations with strangers tend to be socially awkward and potentially dangerous. There's a reason strangers don't talk to each other.
Folks are conditioned to respond to these people without acting scared or unwilling because they don't want to be physically or verbally attacked. This is especially true for women. You may think that someone is open, but for some of them, they're actually scared of you. Your bit of joy is their bit of fear.
Even your initial anecdote shows you're missing some social clues. Service workers don't want to talk to you. They're paid to interact with you. Yes, some may be extroverts and enjoy having a conversation. Others may dread folks starting long awkward conversations that they have no way to escape.
There's socially acceptable places to have conversations with strangers. Bars (to a point), social activities meant for socializing, hobby communities, etc. This is a way better way to get social interaction, and one where you're going to generally have more rewarding interaction as people are there for that reason and are open to it.
Folks are conditioned to respond to these people without acting scared or unwilling because they don't want to be physically or verbally attacked. This is especially true for women. You may think that someone is open, but for some of them, they're actually scared of you. Your bit of joy is their bit of fear.
Even your initial anecdote shows you're missing some social clues. Service workers don't want to talk to you. They're paid to interact with you. Yes, some may be extroverts and enjoy having a conversation. Others may dread folks starting long awkward conversations that they have no way to escape.
There's socially acceptable places to have conversations with strangers. Bars (to a point), social activities meant for socializing, hobby communities, etc. This is a way better way to get social interaction, and one where you're going to generally have more rewarding interaction as people are there for that reason and are open to it.
Even at home, we've switched to the "digital kiosk" strategy.
I'd put it this way: it is easier for a person who is preparing something to cross things off a digital list, than do things any other way.
So for example, if we need something from the supermarket, don't tell me. Tell Alexa. Then when I'm in the supermarket, I'll access the list and buy what's on there.
The digital version never forgets, and if the person making the request is entering it themselves, it's never wrong. So it's the best choice, really. Everything else isn't quite as good.
I'd put it this way: it is easier for a person who is preparing something to cross things off a digital list, than do things any other way.
So for example, if we need something from the supermarket, don't tell me. Tell Alexa. Then when I'm in the supermarket, I'll access the list and buy what's on there.
The digital version never forgets, and if the person making the request is entering it themselves, it's never wrong. So it's the best choice, really. Everything else isn't quite as good.
My wife and I do the same, though with Google Keep.
There is also a Google sheet for packing to go on trips. Each column is a trip, with rows labeled with items, and the intersecting cells filled with NA or an X when packed.
Some family members make fun of it, but we rarely forget to bring things.
There is also a Google sheet for packing to go on trips. Each column is a trip, with rows labeled with items, and the intersecting cells filled with NA or an X when packed.
Some family members make fun of it, but we rarely forget to bring things.
I use self-checkouts whenever possible because most cashiers don't like the job and probably want to interact with as few people as possible, so I'm hopefully making their life a little bit better. Also, I can check that the prices are correct instead of being socially pressured into paying and leaving as fast as possible.
For me it’s because I love hearing “unscanned item in the bagging area” fifty times before the machine locks me out and an employee has to help me after all.
>I use self-checkouts whenever possible because most cashiers don't like the job and probably want to interact with as few people as possible
I don't know if that's really the case. When I worked retail I mostly really liked chatting with customers.
I don't know if that's really the case. When I worked retail I mostly really liked chatting with customers.
I worked retail many years ago. I found the required fake cheer rather horrid. I was good at it, and every now and then I'd have an interesting chat. But I prioritized moving people through _fast_, because they didn't come to chat with me, they came to buy their stuff.
It might depend on the store. I used to get stuck behind cashiers and customers who obviously knew each other and would get into long conversations while I stood there waiting.
I too worked retail and dreaded having another interaction of forced/fake pleasantries, pretending to give a damn about what the customer wanted. Give me a digitized interaction or give me death.
I seem to have seen the opposite recently, possibly because the cost of living has gone up significantly faster than the wages for low-end jobs.
My experience is entirely opposite. I much prefer to go to cashier, because they're easily 2-5x as fast as me, which isn't surprising because they literally scan barcodes for a living. On top of me-being-non-specialist penalty, self-checkout machines also slow down the scanning process, as you need to wait up to few seconds for the scale to stabilize.
Now, neither self-checkout nor human register display some discounts, because they're using the same system, and the system applies those discounts at the end. But here's a thing: I can ask about promotions and prices while the cashier is scanning. Also, if I realize after paying that something is wrong, I can immediately dispute it with the cashier, instead of waiting for the employee to maybe come in the next 5 minutes (they're probably on the other side of the store, busy unloading some boxes).
As for the pressure, I personally feel much more pressure coming from an unyielding machine than from a human.
Now, neither self-checkout nor human register display some discounts, because they're using the same system, and the system applies those discounts at the end. But here's a thing: I can ask about promotions and prices while the cashier is scanning. Also, if I realize after paying that something is wrong, I can immediately dispute it with the cashier, instead of waiting for the employee to maybe come in the next 5 minutes (they're probably on the other side of the store, busy unloading some boxes).
As for the pressure, I personally feel much more pressure coming from an unyielding machine than from a human.
I agree, going to a cashier can be way faster, especially if you pack items the same time that the cashier scans. The cashiers also have memorised codes for fruits etc, so you don't have to use the search function on a kiosk.
I have to add that I have basically always had poor experiences using the garbage web-app menus that restaurants use. It is also much slower to get an overview on menu items on a small phone screen.
I have to add that I have basically always had poor experiences using the garbage web-app menus that restaurants use. It is also much slower to get an overview on menu items on a small phone screen.
The scale experience with these things is so bad that many stores have just given up and disabled them altogether, accepting the additional risk of theft. One of the fancy grocery stores near me does not and it is infuriating to try and use, but apparently they can't meet the high standard of customer service set by Walmart.
The main way they have of encouraging you to use self-checkout is just having way too few cashiers.
The main way they have of encouraging you to use self-checkout is just having way too few cashiers.
> because most cashiers don't like the job and probably want to interact with as few people as possible
I think you're right about some people. But it's true of any job. Some people are pleasant in that job and some people are the opposite. Just because you don't scan boxes of diapers for 8 hours doesn't mean you're immune from this behavior.
I think it's just a matter of treatment, frankly. Many cashier-like workers are treated like garbage. Imagine instead if the grocery store cashier had a pleasant or even funny conversation with everyone in their line over the day - I think it would measurably improve their mood.
I think you're right about some people. But it's true of any job. Some people are pleasant in that job and some people are the opposite. Just because you don't scan boxes of diapers for 8 hours doesn't mean you're immune from this behavior.
I think it's just a matter of treatment, frankly. Many cashier-like workers are treated like garbage. Imagine instead if the grocery store cashier had a pleasant or even funny conversation with everyone in their line over the day - I think it would measurably improve their mood.
Dude, they like the job a whole lot more than no income at all. Which is the direction you're cooperating with pushing things by using self checkout lanes.
From what I've heard, being a cashier is only a part of the job, and usually the less pleasant one. People are still needed to unload groceries, monitor the self-checkouts, etc.
Comrade, I use self-checkout to undermine Accenture business case for firing checkers and to fight back against unpricipled capitalist dogs' greedflation.
I’m surprised the OP and no one else in this discussion have mentioned the single biggest factor in the reduction of random social contact, which are headphones, especially earbuds. These send a clear signal of “don’t talk to me” and even if that is not intended, they make initial interactions more awkward because the person often has to do something to stop listening to their device before they can hear anything. In other words, it’s an interruption.
Very true, but I’ve still been interrupted a few times, and it’s always been positive. Makes me not want to wear earbuds, except that it can be really nice to listen to a podcast on the commute home.
Once on a train, two women come up to me as they’re getting in, and start talking (so I take out the earbuds). Turns out they just needed directions and were here for vacation, with no phone service. I saw that they needed to take my stop, so I offered to help and had a nice conversation for 15 minutes with their broken English. They were super friendly and excited to be traveling through my city, and it really made my day to be able to help them and learn about their travel!
I wish I had moments like that all the time with strangers.
Once on a train, two women come up to me as they’re getting in, and start talking (so I take out the earbuds). Turns out they just needed directions and were here for vacation, with no phone service. I saw that they needed to take my stop, so I offered to help and had a nice conversation for 15 minutes with their broken English. They were super friendly and excited to be traveling through my city, and it really made my day to be able to help them and learn about their travel!
I wish I had moments like that all the time with strangers.
A friend always has headphones, often not listening to anything, because she would get constantly harassed or hit on otherwise. She doesn't stand out, ordinary looking, but she suspects that's why.
But yeah, I interpret headphones as "leave me alone".
Although from the article in the Netherlands, I suspect another reason why people use kiosks, is that folks working service jobs might not speak the language fluently, or the person was a tourist. I'm not criticizing anyone, I think it's a nice feature of kiosks.
But yeah, I interpret headphones as "leave me alone".
Although from the article in the Netherlands, I suspect another reason why people use kiosks, is that folks working service jobs might not speak the language fluently, or the person was a tourist. I'm not criticizing anyone, I think it's a nice feature of kiosks.
Agree. Someone in my office wears airpods all the time, probably when they not even in use. I often think about his many missed opportunities to build new relationships.
While I thank you for this precious nugget of your worldview, please let me interject for a moment to express my loathing for the information contained therein, for I hate and despise it when strangers feel entitled to slide into my comfort zone uninvited.
It never fails to astonish me how blind can extroverts be to the fact that there exist people who don't find it at all refreshing to have to talk to others all the time, and who find social accessibility devices like self-checkout and self-service liberating, especially since NCR rolled out a model of self-checkout POS that is not a pitiful box of UX fuckness it used to be. And no, we know how to be polite and most of the time we are. We also talk to people in social settings where this is expected of us. For example, a lengthy train journey where we cannot avoid our comfort zone from being inadvertently invaded, can sure be made better by conversation. However, I can't help but notice that most of the time, strangers talking to me, if it's not their job in their workplace, would like me to either join some cult or buy something from them.
Needless to say, this makes me very wary of any such conversation. Hope you enjoy your day.
It never fails to astonish me how blind can extroverts be to the fact that there exist people who don't find it at all refreshing to have to talk to others all the time, and who find social accessibility devices like self-checkout and self-service liberating, especially since NCR rolled out a model of self-checkout POS that is not a pitiful box of UX fuckness it used to be. And no, we know how to be polite and most of the time we are. We also talk to people in social settings where this is expected of us. For example, a lengthy train journey where we cannot avoid our comfort zone from being inadvertently invaded, can sure be made better by conversation. However, I can't help but notice that most of the time, strangers talking to me, if it's not their job in their workplace, would like me to either join some cult or buy something from them.
Needless to say, this makes me very wary of any such conversation. Hope you enjoy your day.
And here we are, exchanging views on the subject, for which I am sincerely grateful you took the effort to write your take on "my precious nugget' (love the metaphor!)
Perhaps it is good to add that I do try to gauge other people's willingness to talk before making any move. It gets easier to recognise and - this is something the author of the book noted to - somehow other people that are willing to talk sort of engage by themselves as if they recognise my willingness to talk. I think this happens because of non-verbal clues we are capable of picking up because of our evolution as species.
And I am sure you would signal as "do not disturb" on my "stranger radar" - which I would absolutely respect diligently. Happy day to you, too. :-)
Perhaps it is good to add that I do try to gauge other people's willingness to talk before making any move. It gets easier to recognise and - this is something the author of the book noted to - somehow other people that are willing to talk sort of engage by themselves as if they recognise my willingness to talk. I think this happens because of non-verbal clues we are capable of picking up because of our evolution as species.
And I am sure you would signal as "do not disturb" on my "stranger radar" - which I would absolutely respect diligently. Happy day to you, too. :-)
I love touch screen checkout for ordering fast food and wish I could do it in the drive thru.
We are a family of 6 and each person has their particular wants for an order. Too often when giving our order, things are not entered in, and the order gets messed up.
With a digital entry I can quickly go through and pick things out, and instead of two points of failure (cashier and kitchen) only one place can mess the order up.
Even if it is just me, I know what I want, can quickly browse to the thing I want every day, see other options I can take, and checkout without waiting in line.
And I am an extreme extrovert, but I prefer not to foist my disorder on those that are paid to interact with me.
We are a family of 6 and each person has their particular wants for an order. Too often when giving our order, things are not entered in, and the order gets messed up.
With a digital entry I can quickly go through and pick things out, and instead of two points of failure (cashier and kitchen) only one place can mess the order up.
Even if it is just me, I know what I want, can quickly browse to the thing I want every day, see other options I can take, and checkout without waiting in line.
And I am an extreme extrovert, but I prefer not to foist my disorder on those that are paid to interact with me.
McDonald's will let you start an order in the app and pick it up at drive-thru, and for the times I get McD's, this has become my preferred way of ordering. I don't have to explain my substitutions and hope they're translated right. I don't have to order in a specific way, or be prepared with my meal/drink preference. I even get to prepay with ApplePay. It makes the whole experience so much more pleasant for me.
They also have a big TV screen next to the speaker so when you ask them what they have on the menu they can simply show you.
You can also see your order filling up so you can check it's correct.
Honestly, McDonalds is not the best food but they really nailed it on the convenience part.
You can also see your order filling up so you can check it's correct.
Honestly, McDonalds is not the best food but they really nailed it on the convenience part.
I would love it if there was just a web site instead of the app.
They could place a QR code nearby referencing it.
Lucky that self-order at (other) sit-down restaurants mostly use systems where you scan a QR code and order on a web page, not apps.
They could place a QR code nearby referencing it.
Lucky that self-order at (other) sit-down restaurants mostly use systems where you scan a QR code and order on a web page, not apps.
I feel you. My wife and I realised the true value of drive-thrus after having our first baby 4 months ago. Grabbing a meal on the road is so much easier when you don't need to get the baby out of the car, figure out how to carry it, and potentially deal with it crying while trying to order and eat.
Why do people use drive throughs? Is it on longer trips to save time or is there an other reason? If I have enough time I prefer to sit in a restaurant and eat but the insides of Mac's don't really look appealing
I think he has a great point. Its crazy to me how much some have withdrawn into their digital world. There is so much talk today about understanding each other and unity, that it makes me wonder how much of those calls are pure projection. Our personal bubbles have crystalized into diamond shells, sound dampened by AirPods.
Talking to strangers carries risk. They could always say something to makes you feel bad, or be physically threatening. But like in all things in life, you have to be able to assess risk. And taking small risks that may open doors is surely better than never taking a risk ever.
Although I do disagree with asking questions like "Where are you going?" Personal questions that reveal specific details like location trigger many people's alarms. Its easier to talk about something in the local environment where there is no asymmetric information/power dynamic.
Talking to strangers carries risk. They could always say something to makes you feel bad, or be physically threatening. But like in all things in life, you have to be able to assess risk. And taking small risks that may open doors is surely better than never taking a risk ever.
Although I do disagree with asking questions like "Where are you going?" Personal questions that reveal specific details like location trigger many people's alarms. Its easier to talk about something in the local environment where there is no asymmetric information/power dynamic.
This. Thank you.
> "Where are you going?" It is good to add that this is not my first question. Like you suggested, it is better to start with something that can be perceived by both parties (the author in the book refers to this as triangulation), you talk about something 'simple and stupid' like the weather to 'gauge' if the other party is interested in engaging. The author of the book (Joe Keohane) actually gives a bunch of tips to prevent the conversation from stalling because of 'standard script' (e.g. standard conditioned questions+responses like 'how do you do'). Worth the deep dive if you're experimenting and looking to get the balance right (and prevent to be perceived as the 'town's fool'. )
> "Where are you going?" It is good to add that this is not my first question. Like you suggested, it is better to start with something that can be perceived by both parties (the author in the book refers to this as triangulation), you talk about something 'simple and stupid' like the weather to 'gauge' if the other party is interested in engaging. The author of the book (Joe Keohane) actually gives a bunch of tips to prevent the conversation from stalling because of 'standard script' (e.g. standard conditioned questions+responses like 'how do you do'). Worth the deep dive if you're experimenting and looking to get the balance right (and prevent to be perceived as the 'town's fool'. )
>> Over the past few weeks, I have been engaging in conversations with random people: at the train station, in the supermarket, on the street, and in the city.
Well, for a while I jumped into the "being different and talk to strangers rather than ignore them" boat too. But human society has it's reasons why it behaves this way as a standard.
Unless you wanna run for the "town's lunatic" contest, better respect people's boundaries: https://cdn.cluj.com/cluj/lulu-cluj-750x380.jpg
There are a few exceptions to the rule, even that in need of careful threading of the waters.
- One is drinking in bars and clubs. It's there where I do my part of my "approaching strangers" routine. It's fun but I never "carried over", staying in touch with the respective strangers.
- Not the same can be said about the other socially acceptable way of "how to win friends and influence people": coffee shops. More precisely if you want to do this: coffee SHOP. You need to stick around for long enough to become a regular, to both waiter personnel and the clients. Of which you eventually notice the regulars. And it's not only socially acceptable to engage in conversations with them, you actually can start loose friendships. Absolutely necessary in general to compensate for the general attrition rate in friends circle. Friendship, like any business, needs new hires :)
Well, for a while I jumped into the "being different and talk to strangers rather than ignore them" boat too. But human society has it's reasons why it behaves this way as a standard.
Unless you wanna run for the "town's lunatic" contest, better respect people's boundaries: https://cdn.cluj.com/cluj/lulu-cluj-750x380.jpg
There are a few exceptions to the rule, even that in need of careful threading of the waters.
- One is drinking in bars and clubs. It's there where I do my part of my "approaching strangers" routine. It's fun but I never "carried over", staying in touch with the respective strangers.
- Not the same can be said about the other socially acceptable way of "how to win friends and influence people": coffee shops. More precisely if you want to do this: coffee SHOP. You need to stick around for long enough to become a regular, to both waiter personnel and the clients. Of which you eventually notice the regulars. And it's not only socially acceptable to engage in conversations with them, you actually can start loose friendships. Absolutely necessary in general to compensate for the general attrition rate in friends circle. Friendship, like any business, needs new hires :)
Learning to read body language and understanding which people are open to conversation helps with "town lunatic" syndrome.
This, exactly. The funny thing is that once you start reading body language (as in paying attention to it) - somehow other people pick this up, too.
The author (Joe Keohane) in the book that I mentioned in my blog post noticed this too, once you start looking - it often happens that other folks find you (first) and start talking.
The author (Joe Keohane) in the book that I mentioned in my blog post noticed this too, once you start looking - it often happens that other folks find you (first) and start talking.
I am not an extrovert, but I do enjoy good conversations.
However, I rarely enjoy my conversations with strangers. Maybe it is a selection bias, but strangers who try to talk to me are almost always painful to talk to. They say things that make no sense, and leave me having to smile and nod at nonsense. I don't think I have ever had an interesting or engaging conversation with a stranger.
However, I rarely enjoy my conversations with strangers. Maybe it is a selection bias, but strangers who try to talk to me are almost always painful to talk to. They say things that make no sense, and leave me having to smile and nod at nonsense. I don't think I have ever had an interesting or engaging conversation with a stranger.
I had a guy overhear me talking about when I ate iguana in Curacao and then ranted to me and my group about how it wasn't right and that they are endangered. And I'm like that's not true at all but anyway, what do you eat buddy? He's like "I only eat chicken" like he's some sort of meat purist in that statement.
Some randos on the plane can be good convo. Met some interesting and nice people on the craps tables, conferences, festivals, fellow or opposing fans at sports events. When I travel, I usually end up collecting strangers as part of the experience.
But yeah out and about they're often sketchy. If they're painful to me, I'll lean into it and try to figure out how they got there and you can often pull some interesting or ridiculous stories (ex: alien encounters)
Some randos on the plane can be good convo. Met some interesting and nice people on the craps tables, conferences, festivals, fellow or opposing fans at sports events. When I travel, I usually end up collecting strangers as part of the experience.
But yeah out and about they're often sketchy. If they're painful to me, I'll lean into it and try to figure out how they got there and you can often pull some interesting or ridiculous stories (ex: alien encounters)
This hits home here. If one of those talkative people is driving the conversation, it almost always leads to politics or some other subject where I eventually just have to say "Gotta go, bye!" and basically run out the door.
> Maybe it is a selection bias, but strangers who try to talk to me are almost always painful to talk to. They say things that make no sense, and leave me having to smile and nod at nonsense.
You put my experience into words exactly.
Anyway, I don't have kids, I don't watch sports, I don't go to parties or do drugs, I watch maybe 2 movies a year, and I don't like talking about religion or politics. So 99% of people would consider me impossible to talk to.
You put my experience into words exactly.
Anyway, I don't have kids, I don't watch sports, I don't go to parties or do drugs, I watch maybe 2 movies a year, and I don't like talking about religion or politics. So 99% of people would consider me impossible to talk to.
Yes, we evolved as a social species that thrived because of collaboration.
But for most of our history we lived in small communities. Modern cities where you cross hundreds of new strangers every single day isn't the environment where we evolved.
Being able to ignore strangers is necessary to keep sanity.
But for most of our history we lived in small communities. Modern cities where you cross hundreds of new strangers every single day isn't the environment where we evolved.
Being able to ignore strangers is necessary to keep sanity.
>> Being able to ignore strangers is necessary to keep sanity.
Precisely. Even in my clubs/bars drinking strategy of approaching strangers, I make great effort to become "familiar" to them before making the move.
In fact picking up a random stranger for a conversation is in no way different than picking a chick for a possible later "good time" in a club.
First and foremost you need to become nonverbally accustomed to them and they to you. And unless pushing for town's idiot, need to get the signals that they are OK talking to you. Otherwise especially when booze is involved, things can get messy fast. (You gotta be prepared for this situation too if you do this).
Precisely. Even in my clubs/bars drinking strategy of approaching strangers, I make great effort to become "familiar" to them before making the move.
In fact picking up a random stranger for a conversation is in no way different than picking a chick for a possible later "good time" in a club.
First and foremost you need to become nonverbally accustomed to them and they to you. And unless pushing for town's idiot, need to get the signals that they are OK talking to you. Otherwise especially when booze is involved, things can get messy fast. (You gotta be prepared for this situation too if you do this).
There's an advantage in talking to total strangely (intellectually) connected strangers than friends or family.
It's discussing sensitive issues like what to do when you got a crazy b*ch wife. Years of attrition and refinement eventually resulting in:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38267382
It's discussing sensitive issues like what to do when you got a crazy b*ch wife. Years of attrition and refinement eventually resulting in:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38267382
> picking a chick
Is there a need to use this kind of language here?
Is there a need to use this kind of language here?
Sorry, my bad, English is not my native language.
"picking UP a chick" :)
"picking UP a chick" :)
No worries, but woman would probably be the less dehumanising choice! And potential partner would be more inclusive.
Agreed! But it also has a high cost for the community of the city. I still prefer my Airpods in the sub.
Before covid I organized regular friending events in several European cities. Using a mobile app participants would be paired with a new person every 10 minutes or so.
It always fascinated me to see how people experienced these events. People were silently waiting in line to be checked in by the host, to be paired (for example) with the person behind, a person that was there for the same reason: meeting new people! But still the structure of the event was needed to start a conversation with that stranger.
The event was usually 1 - 1,5 hours and sure enough they would talk to anybody else in the room after that :)
It always fascinated me to see how people experienced these events. People were silently waiting in line to be checked in by the host, to be paired (for example) with the person behind, a person that was there for the same reason: meeting new people! But still the structure of the event was needed to start a conversation with that stranger.
The event was usually 1 - 1,5 hours and sure enough they would talk to anybody else in the room after that :)
This is so cool! In the book that I described in my blog post, the author (Joe Keohane) explains that sometimes people need a sort of "permission" to engage, your events fulfilled that.
Another well accepted context for strangers to engage is when something bad or disastrous happens. Better not wait until that time, but it is easy to understand that boundaries fall away when the going gets tough. It is a survival mechanism.
Another well accepted context for strangers to engage is when something bad or disastrous happens. Better not wait until that time, but it is easy to understand that boundaries fall away when the going gets tough. It is a survival mechanism.
> sometimes people need a sort of "permission" to engage, your events fulfilled that.
Yes! I will read the book :-)
Yes! I will read the book :-)
> Even a short and simple conversation can make you feel good.
Well, for some, even a short and simple conversation can make them feel bad.
Well, for some, even a short and simple conversation can make them feel bad.
Founder: I have figured out a way to automate the interpersonal interaction out of another core human experience!
VC: Well that woman was mean to me at Starbucks once… here’s $1B
VC: Well that woman was mean to me at Starbucks once… here’s $1B
I have existed since long before self-checkout or digital ordering and have not ever connected with someone working at a cash register or serving food.
It's because you see them as a cashier or a server, instead of a person working as a cashier or server.
There was some period of 6 months where for some reason (I believe it was cause I was living overseas for 2 years in a country without my native language, then returning back to where I could finally talk again) I was very outgoing and talkative.
It was glorious and I happily talked with everyone. Would crack jokes at people as I passed them by on the street.
Unfortunately Philly beat the reserved "heads down" scowl I was used to back into me.
There was some period of 6 months where for some reason (I believe it was cause I was living overseas for 2 years in a country without my native language, then returning back to where I could finally talk again) I was very outgoing and talkative.
It was glorious and I happily talked with everyone. Would crack jokes at people as I passed them by on the street.
Unfortunately Philly beat the reserved "heads down" scowl I was used to back into me.
I know they're people. I occasionally banter. It's just pleasantries though. I don't remember any of them and I doubt they remember me.
Well I did, especially on my vacation to the US. I connected with almost anyone, especially in rural areas. Still cherishing the memory of the dude I talked to for ages in the gas station in the nowhere of Nevada. Or the place where I got the coffee that had lots of police patches from all over the world somewhere on the Route 66 in AZ.
The employees and customers at a local convenience store have figured this out. While the customer's using the kiosk, the employee's restocking while keeping half an eye on the store. Both are freed up mentally to chat, and people in line also feel free to chat with the employee when it's not their turn because they're not interrupting anything. It's pleasant.
Overall point: agreed, talking to strangers can be a great experience and is the stuff of adventures and stories sometimes. I've travelled alone a few times and the experience always puts me in a persona where I talk to random people whenever I have the chance. I've met people in bars and airplanes, hell I've had some great dates with girls I've met and adventures with groups this way. Its fun, I recommend it.
But when it comes to chatting up service people? Meh. It can be fun, but the experience is mixed and its not really why that person is behind the counter. Often people struggle just to make the right order, let alone ask how their day is going.
But when it comes to chatting up service people? Meh. It can be fun, but the experience is mixed and its not really why that person is behind the counter. Often people struggle just to make the right order, let alone ask how their day is going.
Am I the only one who hates standing in line. or rather be, first in line. i get stressed! when its my "turn" and everyone is in line behind me.
self checkout was a god send when they came, because hardly anyone used them. 10+ machines all to myself.
I feel like cities and technology can result in over-socialisation for a lot of people. I've noticed that dogs that spend a lot of time being fussed over (eg living in a cafe) become quite indifferent to people, and living in a city I feel the same thing has happened to me to a degree.
That's not to say I'm not social or that I don't talk to strangers, its just more of a conscious decision than - say - talking to the only other human I've seen that day might be.
That's not to say I'm not social or that I don't talk to strangers, its just more of a conscious decision than - say - talking to the only other human I've seen that day might be.
While I do enjoy the digital kiosk for efficiency; they are limited in what they can do.
Example from moments ago: my phone carrier is offering extra data - but when I tried to add it to my account online it said it was for new customers only.
I called customer service, asked politely and the agent was more than happy to oblige.
Sometimes, especially in edge cases, having a human work around the system on your behalf yields the most benefits.
Example from moments ago: my phone carrier is offering extra data - but when I tried to add it to my account online it said it was for new customers only.
I called customer service, asked politely and the agent was more than happy to oblige.
Sometimes, especially in edge cases, having a human work around the system on your behalf yields the most benefits.
Over-extrapolation imho. I strike up conversations, usually successfully, in most places. But I prefer ordering digitally. Better discovery, lower ambiguity, electronic upsell and tips are easier to ignore.
Thank you for saying this. I can't believe how far down I had to scroll before I found what I, too, was thinking when I read this.
From TFA:
> When was the last time you greeted somebody you didn't know? When did you spontaneously engage in a conversation? Chances are you don't even remember! Likely either you or the other person were "busy" with other things (like tinkering with a smartphone).
Yikes. I make idle chit-chat with strangers all the time, and it's not always me starting it. The last time I was at a bar I got into a conversation with the guy next to me for almost 30 minutes.
> We shop online, scan our groceries at the self-checkout, order a taxi via an app, and sit behind our screens in the cafe or coffee bar. Contact with random strangers is becoming rarer and rarer.
The author is describing what's happening in their life, which is the result of their choices and their circumstances: where they live, the kind of work they do, what they feel comfortable doing, the habits they've acquired. Other people have different experiences.
> But I prefer ordering digitally. Better discovery, lower ambiguity, electronic upsell and tips are easier to ignore.
Indeed these are benefits, however I keep finding the digital ordering to be slower than just telling a human (who is an expert at the software interface) what I want. This way I don't have to figure out with each new interface how to customize the order. And oh man the bugs. The last two times I've tried online ordering for McDonalds it's glitched out, never again.
From TFA:
> When was the last time you greeted somebody you didn't know? When did you spontaneously engage in a conversation? Chances are you don't even remember! Likely either you or the other person were "busy" with other things (like tinkering with a smartphone).
Yikes. I make idle chit-chat with strangers all the time, and it's not always me starting it. The last time I was at a bar I got into a conversation with the guy next to me for almost 30 minutes.
> We shop online, scan our groceries at the self-checkout, order a taxi via an app, and sit behind our screens in the cafe or coffee bar. Contact with random strangers is becoming rarer and rarer.
The author is describing what's happening in their life, which is the result of their choices and their circumstances: where they live, the kind of work they do, what they feel comfortable doing, the habits they've acquired. Other people have different experiences.
> But I prefer ordering digitally. Better discovery, lower ambiguity, electronic upsell and tips are easier to ignore.
Indeed these are benefits, however I keep finding the digital ordering to be slower than just telling a human (who is an expert at the software interface) what I want. This way I don't have to figure out with each new interface how to customize the order. And oh man the bugs. The last two times I've tried online ordering for McDonalds it's glitched out, never again.
The book Willem says he is reading, by Joe Keohane, talks about the benefits of talking to strangers, and calls this "connecting". That is not at all what psychologists mean by "connecting". I talk to people all the time, both familiar and strange, and yet am not connected to anyone, in the latter sense.
Thanks for pointing this out. I purposefully write about "talking" to strangers. But, in the book Jeo Keohane actually goes a long way to have more meaningful, deeper, conversations.
By offering yourself as attentive listener, random strangers that you engage with can feel comfortable enough to share a little more than just smalltalk. The book discusses several cases where folks with very different backgrounds and ideas actually come together, sometimes even forming friendships.
As I am not a psychologist I do not know the accepted definition of "connecting", but I am sure it needs more than just smalltalk. I don't know, I am just a random guy doing a little experiment. :-)
By offering yourself as attentive listener, random strangers that you engage with can feel comfortable enough to share a little more than just smalltalk. The book discusses several cases where folks with very different backgrounds and ideas actually come together, sometimes even forming friendships.
As I am not a psychologist I do not know the accepted definition of "connecting", but I am sure it needs more than just smalltalk. I don't know, I am just a random guy doing a little experiment. :-)
I treat strangers like I want to be treated: ignore me unless you have a reason to talk to me. I'm getting pretty sick and tired of extroverts telling us we need to change because they think the situations that make them happy are the default and best way for the world to be.
This is a bit bluntly stated, but I agree wholeheartedly. I am an introvert who enjoys social interaction occasionally, but it must be meaningful in order not to be a draining experience.
I have often felt like the nectar for a hungry extravert to feed on, and when they are done with me, it turns out they never actually cared about ~me~; they just needed to feed on the social interaction with me to gain energy for themselves. I was just a means to an end for them.
As an introvert who craves meaningful connection, I have found myself being used and drained by extraverts countless times. I am as a consequence very wary of them.
I have often felt like the nectar for a hungry extravert to feed on, and when they are done with me, it turns out they never actually cared about ~me~; they just needed to feed on the social interaction with me to gain energy for themselves. I was just a means to an end for them.
As an introvert who craves meaningful connection, I have found myself being used and drained by extraverts countless times. I am as a consequence very wary of them.
> I have often felt like the nectar for a hungry extravert to feed on, and when they are done with me, it turns out they never actually cared about ~me~; they just needed to feed on the social interaction with me to gain energy for themselves. I was just a means to an end for them.
This is a striking metaphor! Although I do try to gauge willingness to talk *before* actually engaging in a conversation I will keep your comparison in mind. I don't want to feed on anybody's nectar, so to speak. :-)
This is a striking metaphor! Although I do try to gauge willingness to talk *before* actually engaging in a conversation I will keep your comparison in mind. I don't want to feed on anybody's nectar, so to speak. :-)
You sound like a compassionate and thoughtful person! I think I have just had the misfortune of being exposed to a lot of people with less consideration.
> it turns out they never actually cared about ~me~; they just needed to feed on the social interaction with me to gain energy for themselves
This rings very true. I have often in the past misread a conversation as sign of friendship; whereas for many people it was just something to do to fill in time.
This rings very true. I have often in the past misread a conversation as sign of friendship; whereas for many people it was just something to do to fill in time.
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I'm an introvert and sick of the increasingly closed off world. I come from a place where casual, but ultimately meaningless chats happen all the time and I enjoyed them. They were simple interactions where it didn't really matter if you messed up or not and they took basically no energy. Didn't want to partake? You didn't have to reciprocate.
The society we are building now where everyone retreats into their own world all the time is disturbing. We tell people to "just go meet people" when they're feeling down, yet there is increasingly nowhere to do that!
The society we are building now where everyone retreats into their own world all the time is disturbing. We tell people to "just go meet people" when they're feeling down, yet there is increasingly nowhere to do that!
I am sorry if my post came over as if I wanted to tell you to change; that is never my intention. Please be exactly as you want to be.
Taking your feedback into account I will try to get this nuance better in my writing, but please forgive me as I am "just an amateur with a blog". :-)
Taking your feedback into account I will try to get this nuance better in my writing, but please forgive me as I am "just an amateur with a blog". :-)
I definitely felt this on a recent trip to Tokyo. Instinctively I'd walk up to a counter to order my meal but then would be pointed to a large touch screen at the entrance of the restaurant.
A similar experience in my hotel lobby lounge, where upon entering I was greeted with a drinks menu on an ipad. I politely refused and walked over to the bar to order, only to be shown another ipad.
A similar experience in my hotel lobby lounge, where upon entering I was greeted with a drinks menu on an ipad. I politely refused and walked over to the bar to order, only to be shown another ipad.
This is pretty sophomoric stuff (from the linked advertisement for the book the author is writing about):
> "We evolved from tribes to larger communities where meeting strangers had the potential to grant us access to food and other resources. Unknown people were treated as guests and were offered generous hospitality for this reason."
I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of isolated communities would react to an influx of strangers with a mixture of surprise, interest and alarm. Most probably this would be alleviated by some kind of formal meet-and-greet (at a dinner, say).
Randomly accosting people on the street or at a place of business in an attempt to engage them in conversation is not the way to go about it, the vast majority of people will interpret this as rude or bizarre behavior. Instead look into various clubs, volunteer organizations, etc. where the very fact that you've put in the effort to show up will encourage other people that talking to you might be a worthwhile pursuit.
> "We evolved from tribes to larger communities where meeting strangers had the potential to grant us access to food and other resources. Unknown people were treated as guests and were offered generous hospitality for this reason."
I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of isolated communities would react to an influx of strangers with a mixture of surprise, interest and alarm. Most probably this would be alleviated by some kind of formal meet-and-greet (at a dinner, say).
Randomly accosting people on the street or at a place of business in an attempt to engage them in conversation is not the way to go about it, the vast majority of people will interpret this as rude or bizarre behavior. Instead look into various clubs, volunteer organizations, etc. where the very fact that you've put in the effort to show up will encourage other people that talking to you might be a worthwhile pursuit.
One thing I might suggest to people wanting to get more experience talking with strangers is, ironically, VRChat. It throws you into rooms with strangers where everyone in the room with you is there for the purpose of socializing and having fun.
There's an expectation that people in VRChat will be greeting and meeting other people, unlike in real life where only a subset of the people around you at any random point in time would be interested in it. It's basically a lower stress, lower risk, lower effort way of getting dropped into a room with a bunch of people that are receptive to meeting and talking with you.
That being said, it's not for everyone. It can be quite chaotic, and it's a hassle filtering out annoying children. It's also an expensive rabbit hole to go down if you want the full VR experience.
There's an expectation that people in VRChat will be greeting and meeting other people, unlike in real life where only a subset of the people around you at any random point in time would be interested in it. It's basically a lower stress, lower risk, lower effort way of getting dropped into a room with a bunch of people that are receptive to meeting and talking with you.
That being said, it's not for everyone. It can be quite chaotic, and it's a hassle filtering out annoying children. It's also an expensive rabbit hole to go down if you want the full VR experience.
The writer assumes other people are also relatively privileged as a writer and not worry about money/job and have free-time for idle chit chat
Also seen this and doing "rejection tests" -- someone with too much freetime on their hands or who has ADHD. Other people would label this behavior as weird
Also seen this and doing "rejection tests" -- someone with too much freetime on their hands or who has ADHD. Other people would label this behavior as weird
In my experience poor people are way friendlier than rich people and more likely to strike up a conversation. It is in fact the well-off who have the privilege of not getting along with their fellow humans—they can just pay them to do stuff instead of trading favors and building community.
I was locked out of my car last weekend so I used the app to summon AAA. Super smooth process.
The tow driver called me to confirm he was on way and location. I saw that he had arrived in a normal pickup truck so I told my buddy that I was going to mess with him.
I walked up to him and said "how are you going to tow my car with that thing?!?!!" And he paused and then said... "I thought it was a lockout?" with a confused look
I said "ahhhhhhhh got ya! I'm just messing with ya" and we both shared a good laugh. We chatted a little while he used his airbag and tool to unlock it which took about 30 seconds. I told him thanks and and gave him a $10 tip which he appreciated.
My great uncle once told me - "never let a day go by without messing with someone". I try to remember that and do it when I can as it breaks up my day and often others to just laugh.
The art of the bullshit and messing with people and just laughing died a long time ago. People got used to not engaging with strangers and it's not really scary. You don't have to have a long exchange. Or an awkward one. You can mess with people, thank them for what they are doing or share a laugh or compliment.
I'd consider myself a hybrid introvert/extrovert. I find that if I don't engage regularly with new business calls or with strangers I'm off my game when I do and I'm less likely to do it. And I find that if I do engage it's rewarding.
The tow driver called me to confirm he was on way and location. I saw that he had arrived in a normal pickup truck so I told my buddy that I was going to mess with him.
I walked up to him and said "how are you going to tow my car with that thing?!?!!" And he paused and then said... "I thought it was a lockout?" with a confused look
I said "ahhhhhhhh got ya! I'm just messing with ya" and we both shared a good laugh. We chatted a little while he used his airbag and tool to unlock it which took about 30 seconds. I told him thanks and and gave him a $10 tip which he appreciated.
My great uncle once told me - "never let a day go by without messing with someone". I try to remember that and do it when I can as it breaks up my day and often others to just laugh.
The art of the bullshit and messing with people and just laughing died a long time ago. People got used to not engaging with strangers and it's not really scary. You don't have to have a long exchange. Or an awkward one. You can mess with people, thank them for what they are doing or share a laugh or compliment.
I'd consider myself a hybrid introvert/extrovert. I find that if I don't engage regularly with new business calls or with strangers I'm off my game when I do and I'm less likely to do it. And I find that if I do engage it's rewarding.
My local supermarket in the UK (Booths) has just removed the self-service tills from nearly all their stores because it had a drastic impact on their customer satisfaction surveys, something they pride themselves on.
While it's not really the same thing, I do enjoy meeting somewhat-random people on https://lunchclub.com. It's biased towards technical people and, unfortunately, I think there's a large gender / diversity gap, but I still get value out of talking with 3 complete strangers each week during 45 minute video calls. I'd love to see such a platform become more mainstream and popular in the city where I'm based, so I could meet them in person.
Some motivations to use kiosk: unfamiliar / uncomfortable with local language, desire to remove ambiguity, difficulty hearing / noisy environment, already being talked out by the time you get to the restaurant…
I prefer to talk to the person behind the counter because even when I’m not in the mood for a human conversation I think it’s rude to use the kiosk when a person is right there. But certainly there are days when I’d rather use the kiosk but won’t for the rudeness reason.
I prefer to talk to the person behind the counter because even when I’m not in the mood for a human conversation I think it’s rude to use the kiosk when a person is right there. But certainly there are days when I’d rather use the kiosk but won’t for the rudeness reason.
When I moved to New York City, I began talking to people on the bus, subway and while running errands. I met so many interesting people- a man who was originally from the same town as some of my ancestors, many people from my native SoCal and even one I went to elementary school with 3000 miles away. My cousin's wife, a native of the Upper East Side, said real New Yorkers never talk to strangers in public but I am very content being a fake (and apparently more gregarious) local.
I don't want to talk to other people and I don't want other people to talk to me. Thanks to modern technology I finally feel ease ordering food.
Computers are way more lovely.
Computers are way more lovely.
Except when you are ordering great food. It's all about whether there is added value or not with tech or humans.
> Even a short and simple conversation can make you feel good.
Sometimes you need a short conversation, sometimes it's the last thing you need. It's good to have the choice.
Sometimes you need a short conversation, sometimes it's the last thing you need. It's good to have the choice.
I think a spontaneous conversation is one of those things that feels daunting but makes you feel good if you do it. Though occasionally you end up in an awkward one like the time my cab driver gave me a gory history of his wife cheating on him back in Ghana, I eventually ran out of things to say in response, and we sat in silence for another twenty minutes or so.
I love to talk to just about anyone, but when I ordered a pumpkin spice latte, decaf with almond milk I would've really preferred a digital kiosk tbh. Felt really weird to order this as a dude, even though I wanted it. I also don't get pushed into weird and totally overblown tips. (Even though I'm based in Germany, it got to us as well. Thanks USA!)
Here I am longing for drones to replace grocery/food delivery people to reduce stranger contact and OP is on a different vibe.
I would have agreed with you in the past, but the world changed quite a bit. It's also probably not a new thing but people are very mean, cruel, difficult, entitled,etc... we can still collaborate when we must no matter what, even remotely.
Everything is recorded and everyone is politically extreme. Being a victim is trendy and attention is the new gold.
As the saying goes (not that i fully agree): "Hell is other people".
My humble opinion is that the root cause is a lack of legislation to regulate tech and its effect on us, and that in turn is driven by people used to the old world who don't have the stomach to support uncomfortable changes. Ideologies need to adapt to changing realities.
One example I can give you is that there is no longer a consistent expectation of social etiquette and conduct. If the person from the blog post ordering on the kiosk had a rude experience for example, they can't just report it to a manager unless they be called a karen, have a hostile recorded reaction which might cost them their livelihood and relationships. Even if they could report it, corrective action is no longer realistic in today's world. And even if the interaction was pleasant for you, you might get spit in your food if you unknowingly offended them. Tap on a screen and you're all done, that's much better. Heck, order it for delivery from home and they won't even see you and get offended by your appearance!
We live in a world of half informed clever assholes and constant animosity. It is genuinely a shock to find a decent real human being.
I would have agreed with you in the past, but the world changed quite a bit. It's also probably not a new thing but people are very mean, cruel, difficult, entitled,etc... we can still collaborate when we must no matter what, even remotely.
Everything is recorded and everyone is politically extreme. Being a victim is trendy and attention is the new gold.
As the saying goes (not that i fully agree): "Hell is other people".
My humble opinion is that the root cause is a lack of legislation to regulate tech and its effect on us, and that in turn is driven by people used to the old world who don't have the stomach to support uncomfortable changes. Ideologies need to adapt to changing realities.
One example I can give you is that there is no longer a consistent expectation of social etiquette and conduct. If the person from the blog post ordering on the kiosk had a rude experience for example, they can't just report it to a manager unless they be called a karen, have a hostile recorded reaction which might cost them their livelihood and relationships. Even if they could report it, corrective action is no longer realistic in today's world. And even if the interaction was pleasant for you, you might get spit in your food if you unknowingly offended them. Tap on a screen and you're all done, that's much better. Heck, order it for delivery from home and they won't even see you and get offended by your appearance!
We live in a world of half informed clever assholes and constant animosity. It is genuinely a shock to find a decent real human being.
I had the experience to work a job which required me to speak with thousands of strangers face-to-face. I consider it one of the best learning opportunities of my life.
I always avoid those kiosks. I prefer a cashier to a screen to the point that I simple do not shop at places which do not give me the choice to checkout with a human.
I absolutely hate talking to strangers and can't relate to a single comment in this thread.
I live in a community that discourages use of smartphones. Very few friends have accounts on social networks.
We have a strong social life. I always have conversations with strangers.
Technology is being used to make you addicted to wasting time for the benefit of a billionaire.
(Now, I admit that a smartphone has a lot of legitimate uses, many of which I miss. But, I still think it's a net positive to use an old dumb-phone.)
We have a strong social life. I always have conversations with strangers.
Technology is being used to make you addicted to wasting time for the benefit of a billionaire.
(Now, I admit that a smartphone has a lot of legitimate uses, many of which I miss. But, I still think it's a net positive to use an old dumb-phone.)
bruh
When I moved overseas, she told me that I should do it, and I do on a regular basis - though not in the grocery store line, and I don't get anxious if I don't do it.
I've definitely made some interesting connections, including with a guy on a bus in 2012 who transferred me my first bitcoin on that bus and got me into crypto. I wish I knew he was so I could thank him.
I've never regretted reaching out to a single person. Sometimes people don't want to talk, and that is easily noticeable. Sometimes I don't end up wanting to talk to them, and that's a bit harder for me to exit.
Give it a shot, but do be conscious of other people's feelings and understand quickly if they want to be left alone.