IKEA sensors for doors and windows, motion, water leaks(theverge.com)
theverge.com
IKEA sensors for doors and windows, motion, water leaks
https://www.theverge.com/2023/11/28/23977693/ikea-sensors-door-window-water-motion-price-date-specs
251 comments
I would be worried about putting anything Xiaomi into my home. They have repeatedly proven to be a major privacy concern. Maybe security concern as well.
> They have repeatedly proven to be a major privacy concern. Maybe security concern as well.
Thanks to Zigbee being a standard, you can use a Zigbee hub/adapter from any vendor you like. The Zigbee sensors themselves have no network connection and therefore noway to warrant privacy concerns really. There is no WiFi/Ethernet or internet involved with anything Xiaomi here.
I'm using a bunch of these Aquara Zigbee sensors with the open source Home Assistant software and hardware, they are for the most part fantastic.
I would take Zigbee home automation devices over crappy wifi ones any day of the week - its a vastly better protocol/methodology for hooking these sorts of devices up. Your home's lights functioning properly ideally should not depend on bulbs/switches being able to get an IP address etc (sigh)...
> https://www.home-assistant.io/skyconnect - USB adapter for Zigbee from HomeAssistant you can plug into any box you like.
> https://www.home-assistant.io/yellow/ - HomeAssistant server hardware with Zigbee radio built in.
Thanks to Zigbee being a standard, you can use a Zigbee hub/adapter from any vendor you like. The Zigbee sensors themselves have no network connection and therefore noway to warrant privacy concerns really. There is no WiFi/Ethernet or internet involved with anything Xiaomi here.
I'm using a bunch of these Aquara Zigbee sensors with the open source Home Assistant software and hardware, they are for the most part fantastic.
I would take Zigbee home automation devices over crappy wifi ones any day of the week - its a vastly better protocol/methodology for hooking these sorts of devices up. Your home's lights functioning properly ideally should not depend on bulbs/switches being able to get an IP address etc (sigh)...
> https://www.home-assistant.io/skyconnect - USB adapter for Zigbee from HomeAssistant you can plug into any box you like.
> https://www.home-assistant.io/yellow/ - HomeAssistant server hardware with Zigbee radio built in.
The Aqara temperature sensors[0] wouldn't stay connected to my SkyConnect USB dongle. No issues with my Zigbee switch and thermostats though, so I think some vendors aren't fully Zigbee compliant but it's probably the exception.
[0] https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D37FKGY/
[0] https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D37FKGY/
I've had great results with their buttons/light switches and Home Assistant Yellow, and the SkyConnect prior to that, for what its worth. I especially like the PoE version of Home Assistant Yellow - can power the entire server from its ethernet port.
Do you use ZHA? I had to change to zigbee2mqtt (and thus get more compatible device to go with it) to make my Aqara sensors stop disconnecting.
Probably? It's a SkyConnect on Home Assistant OS.
What would you recommend for a ZigBee thermostat?
I'm not who you asked, but I replaced my baseboard heater thermostats with the Sinope Zigbee ones and have been very happy with them. I think their products only work with heating systems though, not heat + A/C.
That is a valid concern, but not such an issue with Zigbee stuff since you can run it with your own hub giving the sensors 0 external connectivity.
Their sensors are fine, just use a non-Xiaomi hub like SONOFF Zigbee 3.0 USB Dongle.
Sonoff is chinese, doesn't fix the security issue
I am more worried about US stuff with the whole PRISM thing and other three letter shenanigans.
Aditionally the comment you are replying to is a dongle to provide a single board computer (or a computer in general) with ZigBee conectivity.
Ideally you would run a trusthworthy open source OS and hub software.
Aditionally the comment you are replying to is a dongle to provide a single board computer (or a computer in general) with ZigBee conectivity.
Ideally you would run a trusthworthy open source OS and hub software.
Agreed, I would rather a foreign agency with no power or authority over me to have my personal data than a government that has the authority to wrongfully tax, investigate, jail, prosecute, and imprison me for that same data.
You should choose the devices that are the most secure, using the information you have available at the time.
Choosing a foreign government to spy on you rather than your own government isn't a clear choice. While a foreign government is less likely to be interested in you personally and likely less able to directly cause you harm, you also have less recourse against them than against your own government and their interests are less likely to be aligned with yours.
Additionally, your government may be able to co-opt the compromised devices anyway and would certainly have an incentive to do so.
I'd also question that a device that is by-design-compromised is otherwise secure from bad actors. It is difficult to imagine the incentive structure that would make that possible.
Finally, once this personal data has been harvested by either government, there is nothing to stop these governments or rogue elements within these governments from trading or sharing that data with your own government or other actors.
Choosing a foreign government to spy on you rather than your own government isn't a clear choice. While a foreign government is less likely to be interested in you personally and likely less able to directly cause you harm, you also have less recourse against them than against your own government and their interests are less likely to be aligned with yours.
Additionally, your government may be able to co-opt the compromised devices anyway and would certainly have an incentive to do so.
I'd also question that a device that is by-design-compromised is otherwise secure from bad actors. It is difficult to imagine the incentive structure that would make that possible.
Finally, once this personal data has been harvested by either government, there is nothing to stop these governments or rogue elements within these governments from trading or sharing that data with your own government or other actors.
I don't chose to be spied on by any government! But if I could chose only one, it would be an opposing country like China or Russia.
American businesses are forced to share our private data witn three letter agencies. Conversely, I can't imagine any leverage, money or lawful, that would cause a Chinese citizen living in China, with families in China, to be so stupid as to collaborate with the US government in any way, unless they wish for their families to be sent to labor camps.
My data is safer with the Chinese. I don't like it, but that's where we stand with our privacy.
American businesses are forced to share our private data witn three letter agencies. Conversely, I can't imagine any leverage, money or lawful, that would cause a Chinese citizen living in China, with families in China, to be so stupid as to collaborate with the US government in any way, unless they wish for their families to be sent to labor camps.
My data is safer with the Chinese. I don't like it, but that's where we stand with our privacy.
The problem is that the American government has shown time and time again that their interests are not in any way, shape, or form aligned with that of the public.
At this point, I’d trust a (likely) disinterested state actor over one that has been proven to be actively malicious.
At this point, I’d trust a (likely) disinterested state actor over one that has been proven to be actively malicious.
Now I'm imagining a self destructing roborock vacuum burning down my house when China goes deep in anti US territory.
Best policy I abide by is to prevent any data from exiting my network or remote control period. I don't care who is spying.
Best policy I abide by is to prevent any data from exiting my network or remote control period. I don't care who is spying.
Most likely you won't have that problem because the power grid will be offline.
A dongle loads drivers through USB fyi.
If you're more worried about the US then China, we must live in a different world :)
If you're more worried about the US then China, we must live in a different world :)
My Sonoff Zigbee dongle presents itself on my Linux home server as a USB serial device (/dev/ttyUSB0) which gets forwarded to the zigbee2mqtt container which talks to it. Perhaps under a different host OS it might try to deploy something nefarious, but I'm not particularly concerned.
And what about the non technical people, the majority :)?
Will they have the same setup?
Will they have the same setup?
Those people probably aren't buying USB dongles that depend on a server in the first place; They're using one of the many "hub" devices out there instead (with varying degrees of privacy and network security).
Why wouldn't they buy a zigbee USB dongle? ...
Because it presupposes owning and administering a server to host it, which seems like it would exclude someone from the "non-technical user" segment?
What's the threat model for a usb dongle? It won't have network access... I suppose it could spontaneously become an HID device and try typing its way to trouble, but that'd be very OS-specific...
USB is like the most well known physical threat. Look up OMG Cables.
Right, but that's intended for the attacker to connect to from nearby? Also of course presumably if it's got enough hardware crammed in there to cost $170 random Chinese tech companies are not going to include all of that in their $25 dongle "just in case" you turn out to be worth compromising?
I think you are overestimating the cost of inclusion. Surely you have had mandatory IT training about not plugging in unknown usb drives at work right?
Yes, but my work laptop is not a Zigbee hub that I randomly plug unknown USB devices into.
These Zigbee sticks don’t have much opportunity for naughtiness. Like others I’ve used, they communicate over serial with their host (no IP ), and are based on a TI chipset which you can flash.
As other's mentioned, they communicate via serial to the host, this is not a device I'd be greatly concerned about as a threat.
Unless you took great care with sourcing your electronics then they're already packed with chips/parts from china.
If you _really_ want to you can use a nRF52840 (Nordic Semi is from Norway), or I think a few TI chips (USA), and use those as a gateway instead with home assistant (might need to add an extra library). Even then, both companies have manufacturing plants in china AFAIK so...
Unless you took great care with sourcing your electronics then they're already packed with chips/parts from china.
If you _really_ want to you can use a nRF52840 (Nordic Semi is from Norway), or I think a few TI chips (USA), and use those as a gateway instead with home assistant (might need to add an extra library). Even then, both companies have manufacturing plants in china AFAIK so...
That's the beauty of Zigbee. You can run your own hub if you want, and no information leaves your home. Of course this is less, or not at all, true if you run a manufacturer's hub.
All of my Xiaomi stuff is Zigbee and runs through Zigbee2MQTT, I'm not too concerned here since there's no Xiaomi stuff that's capable of connecting to anything except my Zigbee adapter.
It's zigbee.
Run your own Conbee stick and the value is off the charts.
Run your own Conbee stick and the value is off the charts.
I started with a Conbee plus deCONZ and it worked very well.
I've since switched to a SLZB-06[0] plus Zigbee2MQTT and it's incredible.
[0] https://smlight.tech/product/slzb-06/
I've since switched to a SLZB-06[0] plus Zigbee2MQTT and it's incredible.
[0] https://smlight.tech/product/slzb-06/
I'm glad it's working well for gou.
What are the advantages of that over a Conbee?
My Zigbee network is completely flawless and the Conbee picks up pretty much any device.
Pretty hard to improve on that I'd think.
What are the advantages of that over a Conbee?
My Zigbee network is completely flawless and the Conbee picks up pretty much any device.
Pretty hard to improve on that I'd think.
There were two things that pushed me to the SLZB-06:
* deCONZ was slow to get new device support and I had purchased some devices that weren't supported (Ikea STARKVIND) at the time. I think this has been improved since I last used it though.
* The SLZB-06 can be powered by PoE which gives it a lot more flexibility than anything connected by USB. Also, since it's not USB-connected, it's a lot easier to deal with (no need to figure out USB passthrough, etc).
* deCONZ was slow to get new device support and I had purchased some devices that weren't supported (Ikea STARKVIND) at the time. I think this has been improved since I last used it though.
* The SLZB-06 can be powered by PoE which gives it a lot more flexibility than anything connected by USB. Also, since it's not USB-connected, it's a lot easier to deal with (no need to figure out USB passthrough, etc).
I see, I appreciate the knowledge of your experiences.
I'm running HA in a host-privileged docker on my system so it's fairly ergonomic, I'm sure there's room for security improvement there, though.
I'm running HA in a host-privileged docker on my system so it's fairly ergonomic, I'm sure there's room for security improvement there, though.
How have you found the battery life to be on your Ikea zigbee devices? Mine have been generally disappointing. In the range of 3 months on the dimmers that are maybe 10 feet from the hub. Just got a couple of their newer dimmers, hoping those will be better. The pairing experience was certainly less painful.
Zigbee2mqtt is the bomb. ZHA can't hold a candle to it in terms of reliability, features and device support. The tiny increase in complexity is so worth it.
Zigbee2mqtt is the bomb. ZHA can't hold a candle to it in terms of reliability, features and device support. The tiny increase in complexity is so worth it.
What exactly do you mean by a "dimmer"? Everything I have in my home that dims lights is mains-powered, so battery isn't a concern.
I have 45 Zigbee devices in my home, 33 of which are battery-powered. Those are door contact sensors, PIR motion sensors, climate sensors, and a few button remotes to control lighting. They're mostly from Sonoff and Aqara, with a few unbranded Aliexpress devices that identify themselves as TUYATEC, and a couple from Third Reality. In almost every case, the battery life has been extraordinarily good -- well over a year. The only exception is the Sonoff SNZB-04 contact sensor, which seems to need battery changes about every six months. Probably not coincidentally, it's the only sensor that uses CR2032 batteries, rather than AA or AAA. I would happily replace with a slightly larger sensor to get both longer battery life and less e-waste through the ability to use a standard rechargeable AA/AAA battery.
I have 45 Zigbee devices in my home, 33 of which are battery-powered. Those are door contact sensors, PIR motion sensors, climate sensors, and a few button remotes to control lighting. They're mostly from Sonoff and Aqara, with a few unbranded Aliexpress devices that identify themselves as TUYATEC, and a couple from Third Reality. In almost every case, the battery life has been extraordinarily good -- well over a year. The only exception is the Sonoff SNZB-04 contact sensor, which seems to need battery changes about every six months. Probably not coincidentally, it's the only sensor that uses CR2032 batteries, rather than AA or AAA. I would happily replace with a slightly larger sensor to get both longer battery life and less e-waste through the ability to use a standard rechargeable AA/AAA battery.
Ikea refers to several of their zigbee remotes as dimmers. This is the older one that I've had issues with:
https://www.ikea.com/ca/en/p/tradfri-wireless-dimmer-smart-w...
This is the newer one: https://www.ikea.com/ca/en/p/rodret-wireless-dimmer-power-sw...
I have a few SmartThings motion sensors that are at 2-3 years battery life, though they use big lithium cells so that isn't surprising. A few sonoff temp/humidity sensors on coin cells seem to be heading for at least a year battery life as well. So far it's only the Ikea buttons that have issues.
https://www.ikea.com/ca/en/p/tradfri-wireless-dimmer-smart-w...
This is the newer one: https://www.ikea.com/ca/en/p/rodret-wireless-dimmer-power-sw...
I have a few SmartThings motion sensors that are at 2-3 years battery life, though they use big lithium cells so that isn't surprising. A few sonoff temp/humidity sensors on coin cells seem to be heading for at least a year battery life as well. So far it's only the Ikea buttons that have issues.
Understood. This won't help you much, but I don't think I've ever had to change a remote's battery in the three years since I switched over to Zigbee. I assume their radios wake up only when the button is pressed, which is at most a few times a day, so the battery drain should be minimal. I use Home Assistant with a Sonoff Zigbee-USB coordinator, just as you do.
Those Ikea buttons look pretty ordinary, so I can't think of why they'd have such poor battery life. But they seem to be the only difference between our respective systems.
These are the buttons I use most: https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256802252738635.html
Those Ikea buttons look pretty ordinary, so I can't think of why they'd have such poor battery life. But they seem to be the only difference between our respective systems.
These are the buttons I use most: https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256802252738635.html
You probably have battery issues because you are using SmartThings as the zigbee hub and it's polling the remote way too much.
I have switched to HomeAssistant with a Zigbee USB adaptor and there are no more battery issues.
SmartThings are aware of the issue but do not care enough to fix it.
I have switched to HomeAssistant with a Zigbee USB adaptor and there are no more battery issues.
SmartThings are aware of the issue but do not care enough to fix it.
I do use a few SmartThings branded zigbee sensors but not the hub. I'm using homeassistant with the sonoff efr32mg21 dongle.
I'm well aware of how terrible SmartThings the company is. I'd suffered through their inadequacies until April 2023 when they deleted my account during a failed backup purge. After 3 months of waiting on their support to unlock my hub I gave up and went to homeassistant.
I'm well aware of how terrible SmartThings the company is. I'd suffered through their inadequacies until April 2023 when they deleted my account during a failed backup purge. After 3 months of waiting on their support to unlock my hub I gave up and went to homeassistant.
I find that the battery life seems fine, but I haven't tracked it closely.
I have noticed a difference between Duracell coin cells purchased at Costco and Amazon Basics coin cells. The Amazon Basics ones didn't last long at all, the Duracells seem much better.
The newer dimmers (STYRBAR) use AAA cells instead of coin cells, so I'd expect them to last a lot longer.
I have noticed a difference between Duracell coin cells purchased at Costco and Amazon Basics coin cells. The Amazon Basics ones didn't last long at all, the Duracells seem much better.
The newer dimmers (STYRBAR) use AAA cells instead of coin cells, so I'd expect them to last a lot longer.
I'll try switching up battery brands. The out of the box cells from Ikea were dead in weeks, the store brand ones at least gave me a few months.
Battery brands (or even skus in the brands) can matter a _lot_.
Related, Panasonic's rechargable eneloop have worked very well for me, I'm kind of excited to see AAA be used in the IOT devices where it can fit.
I have a lot less of a problem swapping batteries if I just have a few charged ones on hand and get at least many months in-between replacements.
Related, Panasonic's rechargable eneloop have worked very well for me, I'm kind of excited to see AAA be used in the IOT devices where it can fit.
I have a lot less of a problem swapping batteries if I just have a few charged ones on hand and get at least many months in-between replacements.
Top tip: IKEA rechargeable batteries are probably rebadged Eneloop Pros.
>Related, Panasonic's rechargable eneloop have worked very well for me
Just a heads up: IKEA's brand of rechargables are likely rebadged eneloops at about half the price, also made in japan. Though for the AAA's they only have eneloop regular equivalents not eneloop pros.
Just a heads up: IKEA's brand of rechargables are likely rebadged eneloops at about half the price, also made in japan. Though for the AAA's they only have eneloop regular equivalents not eneloop pros.
You need to upgrade the firmware on both your devices + controllers, this is a known problem that I think is mostly resolved now.
I'm up to date on both the coordinator firmware and device firmware. Updating the coordinator firmware was necessary to get device updates working on the newer Ikea devices, but I haven't noticed a difference in power consumption. Adding repeaters and reconverging didn't seem to make a difference either.
I got at least a dozen on/off/dimmer switches and couple of sensors. They last months, and I would maybe say even a year. I do use those coin Duracell batteries most of the time, makes quite a difference.
My STYRBAR dimmers last for more than a year, definitely. But they’re only used like < 10 times a day.
I'm seeing poor life regardless of usage. I'm guessing that either something is chatty in that part of the network, or some config is set incorrectly and causing them to wake more often or more fully than they should. No idea how to troubleshoot either case, just hoping the newer aaa-powered buttons might be better.
I have a handful of Aqara motion sensors because some idiots on Youtube recommended them. They're shit compared to the Hue motion sensors though, and take 3+ seconds to respond while I look like an idiot waving my hands around and sometimes even need to take off my shirt and wave it like a flag to get the lights to turn on. The Hue motion sensors respond almost instantly in comparison.
All this low power electronics designed to run 3 years on a coin battery bothers me. If it's that low power why not get rid of the battery, slap a tiny solar panel (the kind they used on calculators in the 90s) and a supercapacitor, it should be able to power itself indefinitely on normal levels of room light, never go into deep sleep states, and can even turn the room lights on automatically if it needs more power.
All this low power electronics designed to run 3 years on a coin battery bothers me. If it's that low power why not get rid of the battery, slap a tiny solar panel (the kind they used on calculators in the 90s) and a supercapacitor, it should be able to power itself indefinitely on normal levels of room light, never go into deep sleep states, and can even turn the room lights on automatically if it needs more power.
I don't have any Aqara motion sensors. I do have two Ikea ones though and they work fine.
One is in my home office to turn the lights on and off, it works fine and I've never had problems with it not detecting me. It's not instant, but always responds within a second or two.
The other one is sitting by the cat litter boxes and is used to trigger an automation involving an air cleaner. It senses the cats at a range of about 1.5m just fine.
The next thing I'm interested in is the crop of mmWave presence sensors. There are a lot out there and I'm not sure if there's a clear winner in this space yet.
One is in my home office to turn the lights on and off, it works fine and I've never had problems with it not detecting me. It's not instant, but always responds within a second or two.
The other one is sitting by the cat litter boxes and is used to trigger an automation involving an air cleaner. It senses the cats at a range of about 1.5m just fine.
The next thing I'm interested in is the crop of mmWave presence sensors. There are a lot out there and I'm not sure if there's a clear winner in this space yet.
Ironically, I do I have the Aqara mmWave presence sensor and my experience with it has been pretty good. It is powered on 5V from the wall though, which makes aesthetics a little harder to manage.
> Maybe it uses AAA batteries instead of coin cells or something.
It does, which is a big selling point for me. I’m trying to standardise on rechargable AA/AAA batteries wherever possible. A lot of devices recommend you only use alkaline batteries because of the extra voltage but I haven’t actually found one that doesn’t function on 1.2v eneloops yet.
It does, which is a big selling point for me. I’m trying to standardise on rechargable AA/AAA batteries wherever possible. A lot of devices recommend you only use alkaline batteries because of the extra voltage but I haven’t actually found one that doesn’t function on 1.2v eneloops yet.
All the new contact sensors seem to be that large now, including Philips' and Aqara's new ones. They do indeed use larger batteries and they claim several years of use. But man they are so bulky I don't see myself using them. Total eyesores.
I really like this change and suspect the reason why is part of their motivation; they button cells used in the common smaller ones are non-rechargeable and this is really quite wasteful given how popular and good AA/AAA
Rechargeables are
Are they good really? Like half of my AAA devices don't even work on 1.2V. I've dabbled in USB-C rechargeable Li- Ion AA/AAA, but they're quite expensive and the charge lasts a short time. They're mostly useful in remotes and things like that, kind of like NiMH rechargeables.
Meanwhile nonrechargeable batteries get cheaper and cheaper so I just buy them in bulk now. Call me selfish, I guess.
Meanwhile nonrechargeable batteries get cheaper and cheaper so I just buy them in bulk now. Call me selfish, I guess.
The USB-C ones trade on capacity and different ones have different self-discharge rates.
Some manufacturers specify Panasonic Eneloop batteries. Some other brands’ are made by the same company and are very similar (including IKEA)
You can purchase rechargeable coin-cell batteries. Device manufactures tend not to care about batteries except for the crappy one they ship in the box - if they bother to do so.
Do you put water sensors anywhere besides the obvious places, like under the sink and water heater?
Back of the toilets.
Quite a number of leaks come from the braided pipe feeding water to your cistern, as they often only have a five-year lifetime
Quite a number of leaks come from the braided pipe feeding water to your cistern, as they often only have a five-year lifetime
Mine are basically under every water-using appliance, plus some extra ones in the basement in places where there is a risk of water ingress.
I've also built a sensor (HC-SR04, ESP32, ESPHome, Home Assistant) to monitor the water level in my sump pit so that I can make sure the pumps are working.
I've also built a sensor (HC-SR04, ESP32, ESPHome, Home Assistant) to monitor the water level in my sump pit so that I can make sure the pumps are working.
Next to any condensate pumps, like you'd have for air conditioning, maybe for a dehumidifier.
IKEA have really nailed the smart home thing, the products are affordable and unassuming and crucially, all zigbee. You don't even need to use their hub you can use your own.
I've got a bunch of IKEA smart lights, motion sensors, plugs etc around the house and they've worked flawlessly for years, all integrated into home assistant.
I've got a bunch of IKEA smart lights, motion sensors, plugs etc around the house and they've worked flawlessly for years, all integrated into home assistant.
I really like the zigbee ecosystem. There's a lot of great resources, cheap devices, months/years battery lifetimes, and reliability has been top notch for me.
Being able to pick your own coordinator/"hub" and use devices across all different brands like Ikea, Philips Hue, Aqara, etc. is a really great experience.
This is a fantastic community resource example: https://zigbee.blakadder.com/sensors.html
Being able to pick your own coordinator/"hub" and use devices across all different brands like Ikea, Philips Hue, Aqara, etc. is a really great experience.
This is a fantastic community resource example: https://zigbee.blakadder.com/sensors.html
Curiously, I submitted title revised from Ikea smarthome sensors to Ikea zigbee sensors since this is a hacker community who care about such things, but some time later title was edited to remove the reference to zigbee.
They must have some weird research dept there. The first color changing LED strips I found for a reasonable price also came from IKEA. It was several years before anyone matched the price point. For a while I bought CFLs from them and I don’t recall now if that was because of price, color temperature, or dimmer compatibility.
You don’t expect them to have tech stuff but they are very low key about the stuff they dohave.
You don’t expect them to have tech stuff but they are very low key about the stuff they dohave.
I remember being surprised that there was wireless phone charging built into so many products so early.
I really wish these were Matter over Thread without a hub. I'm just looking at adding sensors to a home that already has Nest Wifi for the border routers and I don't really want to add any other hubs to the mix.
Indeed. In all fairness, the hub works really well. I have a few bulbs and switches from Ikea, and I control everything through the Home app on my iPhone. Last week I got an outlet from Ikea. As soon as I added it to the hub, it showed up in the Home app. Matter FTW!
I agree, but delays seem to be the norm with Matter.
Doesn't Matter run over Thread? I thought it was just an application protocol not a physical connectivity protocol.
Thread builds on the same physical layer as Zigbee, IEEE 802.15.4; the big difference is unlike Zigbee it also incorporates IPv6.
The physical layer is important for low power mesh networks, like the sensors and switches here- and WiFi is way, way more power hungry.
That said, Matter supports WiFi too.
Matter runs over IPv6, over either Thread or WiFi.
The downside is that WiFi devices have far worse battery life, and WiFi doesn't really work well for this use case WiFi just isn't meant to have tens of devices all competing.
Also, you wrote matter over thread, but the thread is the same as zigbee. From the rest of your post you mean matter over WiFi.
Also, you wrote matter over thread, but the thread is the same as zigbee. From the rest of your post you mean matter over WiFi.
Why are you saying that Thread is the same as Zigbee? AFAIK they are competing low-power, wireless mesh standards.
My understanding is that Thread is basically Zigbee Next. Better in some ways, can run on most of the same hardware (assuming there's firmware available but not at the same time), and unfortunately not backwards compatible. We'll be stuck having to run both Zigbee and Thread (and wifi, zwave, bluetooth, etc.) from here until eternity.
At least for the water leak scenario, the best approach is to put a drain pan under any appliances that could leak (laundry machines, dishwashers, water heaters). The drain pan should itself drain to a pipe.
Ideally, a water leak sensor should be used help to catch a slowly failing appliance so you can repair/replace it before it does major damage, not preventing it from doing damage in the first place due to a sudden major leak.
Ideally, a water leak sensor should be used help to catch a slowly failing appliance so you can repair/replace it before it does major damage, not preventing it from doing damage in the first place due to a sudden major leak.
We had a whole-home drain backup some time ago that would have been CONSIDERABLY less damaging if we had been alerted to the backup when it occurred. Instead, nobody was inside and a draining laundry machine hit the clog and pushed black water throughout most of the first floor.
Knowing that this was happening would not have likely saved the bathroom, or the laundry room, but it might have saved the kitchen.
Point is: for water leak scenarios you should think about both clean water coming from inlets as well as clogs in your outlets.. I should get a couple of these to place behind my lowest toilets, where the water came up last time
Knowing that this was happening would not have likely saved the bathroom, or the laundry room, but it might have saved the kitchen.
Point is: for water leak scenarios you should think about both clean water coming from inlets as well as clogs in your outlets.. I should get a couple of these to place behind my lowest toilets, where the water came up last time
Of all the leaks I've had these past 10 years, only two have been appliances, and one was high pressure (water heater). The other as negligible. Both of those didn't need sensors.... they were obvious, and quickly.
The leaks that haunt me though... several under the house in the crawl space. Copper pipe pinholes, caused I don't know how much damage (including several ruined water heater elements, maybe even causing the water heater to fail prematurely). Ruined floors. Until they got bad enough that we had no hot water (which was about the time the floor started warping), there doesn't seem to be anyway that we might have noticed. The water bill wasn't unusually high, or maybe it just frog-boiled its way up where we couldn't. There were several more copper pinholes, but they were noticed as muddy places in the crawlspace while fixing the first, or just spidey-sensed. I am also very nearly too fat to crawl under the house, let alone do emergency plumbing while there.
Another incident involved a squirrel. The idiot owners of this house (before us, not the current idiot owners) decided that the easiest place to put new plumbing was in the ceiling (maybe they were too fat too?). Our attic had a new uninvited guest, and apparently PEX piping is very tasty. Or appears that way, the squirrel lost his appetite after biting enough of a hole that there was a leak from above. This leak though, despite the location which should have made it almost instantly obvious, happens almost within 5 minutes of a torrential downpour that lasted better than an hour. That, plus my unwillingness to believe the previous owners had routed plumbing above everyone's heads, meant we didn't get that taken care of quite as quickly as we might have.
My lessons from this, I think, are:
1. We might have caught the crawlspace leaks quickly if there were a humidity sensor (is that how the leak sensors work?) down there, and we could have compared to baseline. That is, if spraying water didn't just fry them immediately.
2. The ceiling leak probably couldn't have been detected very early, given the coincidence with the rain and how it would have raised humidity. Possibly if we had a water pressure sensor, that would have picked it up as a drop, despite there being no faucets running.
Plumbing sucks. Houses build 50 years ago assumed that it could never fail often enough to make it easily accessible. My next house will take into consideration squirrel mitigation concerns.
The leaks that haunt me though... several under the house in the crawl space. Copper pipe pinholes, caused I don't know how much damage (including several ruined water heater elements, maybe even causing the water heater to fail prematurely). Ruined floors. Until they got bad enough that we had no hot water (which was about the time the floor started warping), there doesn't seem to be anyway that we might have noticed. The water bill wasn't unusually high, or maybe it just frog-boiled its way up where we couldn't. There were several more copper pinholes, but they were noticed as muddy places in the crawlspace while fixing the first, or just spidey-sensed. I am also very nearly too fat to crawl under the house, let alone do emergency plumbing while there.
Another incident involved a squirrel. The idiot owners of this house (before us, not the current idiot owners) decided that the easiest place to put new plumbing was in the ceiling (maybe they were too fat too?). Our attic had a new uninvited guest, and apparently PEX piping is very tasty. Or appears that way, the squirrel lost his appetite after biting enough of a hole that there was a leak from above. This leak though, despite the location which should have made it almost instantly obvious, happens almost within 5 minutes of a torrential downpour that lasted better than an hour. That, plus my unwillingness to believe the previous owners had routed plumbing above everyone's heads, meant we didn't get that taken care of quite as quickly as we might have.
My lessons from this, I think, are:
1. We might have caught the crawlspace leaks quickly if there were a humidity sensor (is that how the leak sensors work?) down there, and we could have compared to baseline. That is, if spraying water didn't just fry them immediately.
2. The ceiling leak probably couldn't have been detected very early, given the coincidence with the rain and how it would have raised humidity. Possibly if we had a water pressure sensor, that would have picked it up as a drop, despite there being no faucets running.
Plumbing sucks. Houses build 50 years ago assumed that it could never fail often enough to make it easily accessible. My next house will take into consideration squirrel mitigation concerns.
Humidity is unlikely to help: I have temperature/humidify BLE sensors all through my house and humidity varies wildly. You'd have to do some sort of calibrated long-term machine learning thing to maybe pull out the data.
Much better would simply be digital water meter tracking (which is still amazingly hard to actually do) since when all the taps are off, if you still have substantial water use then you probably have a leak (I would really love a decently accurate ESP-based water meter with like, Sharkbite fittings on it so I could check the water flow out of all my taps or something).
Much better would simply be digital water meter tracking (which is still amazingly hard to actually do) since when all the taps are off, if you still have substantial water use then you probably have a leak (I would really love a decently accurate ESP-based water meter with like, Sharkbite fittings on it so I could check the water flow out of all my taps or something).
The leak sensors I have simply have a pair of electrodes; if water closes the circuit they send an alert.
Hindsight is easy, but your first reaction to any sort of "water from the ceiling" issue that isn't 100% external should be to run to the main water shut-off valve.
My water utility just switched me to a smart meter, and now I can sign up for leak alerts.
They must be doing it by analyzing the usage data somehow. Maybe they alert when there are too many hourly time intervals that all have almost the same usage (since a leak would be continuous and constant). Or maybe if it has been too long since they've seen an hour with zero usage. Something like that.
Anyway, it should be able to catch leaks anywhere in the house.
They must be doing it by analyzing the usage data somehow. Maybe they alert when there are too many hourly time intervals that all have almost the same usage (since a leak would be continuous and constant). Or maybe if it has been too long since they've seen an hour with zero usage. Something like that.
Anyway, it should be able to catch leaks anywhere in the house.
The best solution is a water shut off valve [0] and a bunch of cheap zigbee water sensors.
Drain pans won't handle a catastrophic failure. I installed this in our house to protect against pipe failure. We had the old grey poly-b pipe (since replaced) that was used in the late 90s.
You can DIY this if you are handy with soldering copper pipes, or get a plumber to install it for a couple hundred bucks.
Apparently water damage claims cost exceeds fire.
[0] https://www.geoarm.com/wv01lfus125-fortrezz-z-wave-automated...
Drain pans won't handle a catastrophic failure. I installed this in our house to protect against pipe failure. We had the old grey poly-b pipe (since replaced) that was used in the late 90s.
You can DIY this if you are handy with soldering copper pipes, or get a plumber to install it for a couple hundred bucks.
Apparently water damage claims cost exceeds fire.
[0] https://www.geoarm.com/wv01lfus125-fortrezz-z-wave-automated...
That valve appears to be discontinued.
Most places can fit a drain pan of some sort (I use some sort of rubber mat with an edge under sinks inside cabinets for example, and of course water heaters should have one) but some places like behind toilets, next to the dishwasher, underneath the fridge, etc. don't have great options.
I'm all in on IKEA smart home stuff. I don't do anything too advanced, but having my lamps on timers and being able to turn everything off with one button press is amazing. It integrates perfectly with Sonos too, so I wake to the news on Radio 4.
Really happy with it so far. Will definitely be getting a couple of leak sensors when they become available.
Really happy with it so far. Will definitely be getting a couple of leak sensors when they become available.
I have had smart lights in my apartment for years - Philips Hue uses Zigbee. Every time I am in a hotel or a guest somewhere, I feel like I am visiting the 19th century.
Touching light switches seems savage to me now. I walk in a bathroom, and the light needs to come on, and it needs to be very dim after 10pm.
Touching light switches seems savage to me now. I walk in a bathroom, and the light needs to come on, and it needs to be very dim after 10pm.
> I walk in a bathroom, and the light needs to come on, and it needs to be very dim after 10pm.
You can do this without connected devices, depending on the configuration of your bathroom!
You can get night lights that plug into an outlet, turn on when it’s dark, and brighten when they sense motion. I have some Casper ones (that also let you disable the motion sensing): https://www.amazon.com/Casper-Sleep-Glow-Night-Light/dp/B09L...
You can also configure you bathroom with multiple lights where some are connected to dumb motion sensors. e.g. Panasonic makes bathroom fans with a primary light and a night light - you can connect the night light to something like a Lutron Maestro motion sensor that goes in the wall where your light switches are. (Or if you want to get fancy, you can get a ceiling-mounted motion sensor and a radio-capable Maestro switch/dimmer that can communicate only locally with the motion sensor.)
You can do this without connected devices, depending on the configuration of your bathroom!
You can get night lights that plug into an outlet, turn on when it’s dark, and brighten when they sense motion. I have some Casper ones (that also let you disable the motion sensing): https://www.amazon.com/Casper-Sleep-Glow-Night-Light/dp/B09L...
You can also configure you bathroom with multiple lights where some are connected to dumb motion sensors. e.g. Panasonic makes bathroom fans with a primary light and a night light - you can connect the night light to something like a Lutron Maestro motion sensor that goes in the wall where your light switches are. (Or if you want to get fancy, you can get a ceiling-mounted motion sensor and a radio-capable Maestro switch/dimmer that can communicate only locally with the motion sensor.)
You're braver than I am. I won't use Hue bulbs because I require that my automation setup fail gracefully back to plain old 'just works the way it used to' functionality. It'd be just my luck that the server, hub, or Internet would fail right when I needed the lights to work and I'd be stuck in the dark.
My lights are all set to turn on after a power cut. That way if Home Assistant dies, I can flip any light switch off, then on, and it will work normally. My area doesn’t have any actual power cuts though.
Not really - these lights are always on, so if the hub croaks, your lights can still be turned on/off the old-fashioned way.
I actually got touch guards installed on all the switches so the guests don't press them - you can still poke it with a pencil and toggle. In almost 10 years, I have never had to do it.
The only drawback is that if the power goes in and out - all the lights come on. This is where remote functionality is useful, if you are away.
I actually got touch guards installed on all the switches so the guests don't press them - you can still poke it with a pencil and toggle. In almost 10 years, I have never had to do it.
The only drawback is that if the power goes in and out - all the lights come on. This is where remote functionality is useful, if you are away.
Hue bulbs by default emulate a dumb led bulb. This is configurable so you can have them be “dumb” in a way that you prefer, eg: customize color, brightness or do whatever you told them last.
I have several that some of the time I use a regular light switch to turn on/off and you wouldn’t know they weren’t standard led bulbs.
I have several that some of the time I use a regular light switch to turn on/off and you wouldn’t know they weren’t standard led bulbs.
> I won't use Hue bulbs because I require that my automation setup fail gracefully back to plain old 'just works the way it used to' functionality.
Maybe there's a setting that was changed? When I mess up my HA setup mine just work as "regular light bulbs" with the light switch.
Maybe there's a setting that was changed? When I mess up my HA setup mine just work as "regular light bulbs" with the light switch.
Correct...
(note that you can configure the bulbs to not automatically switch on/off when they get switched on/off with a physical switch.)
My only smart home devices are old "Philips" Wiz Wi-Fi bulbs. They were cheap and I could set them up to change color temperature and brightness to help me fall asleep and wake up on time - it really seems to help. But they were hard to pair and every few months they'll disconnect from WiFi and need re-pairing. The proprietary app is somewhat annoying and they released a new V2 app which is more annoying and (from what I can tell) doesn't have any widgets or siri shortcuts so I need to launch the app every time I want to turn the lights on or off. I'm sure some newer WiFi bulbs work better but by nature they have to use the cheapest possible WiFi hardware and I'm wary of them clogging up my airwaves, forcing low PHY rates, and being incompatible with newer WiFi technologies like U-APSD.
My new LG TV has a built-in Matter Thread hub, so Thread sounded perfect. No proprietary apps needed, compatible with everything. Just point your phone at the QR code to pair. Fully local, low-latency mesh networking. But it's new so the devices are more expensive and there's a really limited selection. The early-adopters of Thread experienced some reliability issues but those have been fixed (?) I can't find much info about LG's Thread hub implementation but it seems like I'd need to add new devices through LG's app and I'm wary about how LG's integrations tend to be unreliable and how they try to turn open standards into de-facto lock-in experiences.
Zigbee and Z-Wave felt like old news to me. The last vestiges of the semi-open proprietary home automation market for people who are already locked in and willing to pay $60 for a light switch. I really don't want to have to buy a hub. I also had some bad experiences with some very expensive ZigBee wireless relay modules I used in a product at work. I think this thread is causing me to rethink ZigBee. Cheap, open, compatible. I wanted to get a low-power always-on server to host the Grafana/MQTT for my Open Airgradient air sensor anyway, so I may as well plug a Zigbee dongle in and run Home Assistant. Might get a Home Assistant Green or Yellow.
My new LG TV has a built-in Matter Thread hub, so Thread sounded perfect. No proprietary apps needed, compatible with everything. Just point your phone at the QR code to pair. Fully local, low-latency mesh networking. But it's new so the devices are more expensive and there's a really limited selection. The early-adopters of Thread experienced some reliability issues but those have been fixed (?) I can't find much info about LG's Thread hub implementation but it seems like I'd need to add new devices through LG's app and I'm wary about how LG's integrations tend to be unreliable and how they try to turn open standards into de-facto lock-in experiences.
Zigbee and Z-Wave felt like old news to me. The last vestiges of the semi-open proprietary home automation market for people who are already locked in and willing to pay $60 for a light switch. I really don't want to have to buy a hub. I also had some bad experiences with some very expensive ZigBee wireless relay modules I used in a product at work. I think this thread is causing me to rethink ZigBee. Cheap, open, compatible. I wanted to get a low-power always-on server to host the Grafana/MQTT for my Open Airgradient air sensor anyway, so I may as well plug a Zigbee dongle in and run Home Assistant. Might get a Home Assistant Green or Yellow.
Personally I've just gone all in on ESP-based wi-fi stuff, and it's working great so far. Wi-fi is ubiquitous, and for plugged in devices it means all my stuff just has a regular IP address and DHCP identity on my network (on a secondary SSID without internet access, thanks to Unifi).
FYI, there is a Home Assistant integration for the WiZ bulbs that I find works really well… I almost exclusively control my 6 or so via HomeKit and they have been rock solid.
Would have loved a cheap human presence sensor instead of a motion sensor!
This might be what you're looking for. It's wifi (I think it's Matter), but works without an internet connection.
https://www.aqara.com/us/product/presence-sensor-fp2
https://www.aqara.com/us/product/presence-sensor-fp2
Pretty sure it’s not matter.
Source: own it and the website doesn’t say matter. Also an engineer working on matter products.
Source: own it and the website doesn’t say matter. Also an engineer working on matter products.
> With its advanced hardware, the FP2 is able to support much more cutting-edge features such as sleep monitoring, people counting, posture detection (lying down, sitting, standing, walking) and Matter support for enhanced functionality
It’s matter support with a hub. They promise matter support with an OTA. Notably none of their marketing copy or the box says matter support.
> Support of the new smart home standard, Matter, is also planned for the FP2, and will be added to the device via a subsequent OTA update
https://www.aqara.com/us/aqara-adds-presence-sensor-fp2-to-i...
> Support of the new smart home standard, Matter, is also planned for the FP2, and will be added to the device via a subsequent OTA update
https://www.aqara.com/us/aqara-adds-presence-sensor-fp2-to-i...
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That's not really cheap though.
The question to me is: are they actually good? I've bought into the Z-Wave ecosystem, and by and large all the Z-Wave door/window sensors available on Amazon have bad reviews. They have issues maintaining a connection to the network, they drop events, have terrible battery life, etc. The Zigbee sensors on Amazon seem a bit better, but still.
I'd seriously consider getting a Zigbee USB stick if I knew these function well and have good battery life. I just bought several $40 Z-Wave door/window sensors that got decent reviews, but at 4x the $10 IKEA price, I'm not going to be buying many of them.
I'd seriously consider getting a Zigbee USB stick if I knew these function well and have good battery life. I just bought several $40 Z-Wave door/window sensors that got decent reviews, but at 4x the $10 IKEA price, I'm not going to be buying many of them.
You'll have a good experience with zigbee if you have a solid base layer of lights or smart outlets. Mains-powered devices act as repeaters in zigbee networks. Without enough repeaters, it might be tricky to place a distant contact sensor and have it behave reliably.
Like other commentators, I have both z-wave and zigbee networks running. Z-wave has better standalone penetration (lower frequency), but if I were to build from the ground up again I would go all-in on zigbee. One of the few reasons I have a z-wave network at all is a smart lock, but these days there are more zigbee offerings there.
All lights in my house are hue bulbs, using a deconz setup controlled by home assistant. My aqara motion/contact sensors get ~2 years of battery life.
Like other commentators, I have both z-wave and zigbee networks running. Z-wave has better standalone penetration (lower frequency), but if I were to build from the ground up again I would go all-in on zigbee. One of the few reasons I have a z-wave network at all is a smart lock, but these days there are more zigbee offerings there.
All lights in my house are hue bulbs, using a deconz setup controlled by home assistant. My aqara motion/contact sensors get ~2 years of battery life.
I have large zwave AND zigbee networks. They're very equivalent. I find that the hub is the important factor for ZWave where as each device is important for Zigbee.
Since ZWave is licensed and controlled, I've only had issues where (actual example) a siren supported playing multiple tones but the hub didn't support that particular feature directly.
My experience with Zigbee is slightly different. Being an open standard there are lots of cheap choices however it also means that because there is no licensing to use it, not all of the devices branded "zigbee" are fully compatible with each other. My personal experience leans more towards "Pair the device and cross my fingers that it is compatible". If it's not, nothing works.
Otherwise; They all use the same basic tech (PIR, Resistance for water sensing, magnets and reed switches for door/window open closed) so it really comes down to implementation.
Since ZWave is licensed and controlled, I've only had issues where (actual example) a siren supported playing multiple tones but the hub didn't support that particular feature directly.
My experience with Zigbee is slightly different. Being an open standard there are lots of cheap choices however it also means that because there is no licensing to use it, not all of the devices branded "zigbee" are fully compatible with each other. My personal experience leans more towards "Pair the device and cross my fingers that it is compatible". If it's not, nothing works.
Otherwise; They all use the same basic tech (PIR, Resistance for water sensing, magnets and reed switches for door/window open closed) so it really comes down to implementation.
My home automation is 100% Zigbee and 1/2 of it is IKEA stuff (switches, buttons, motion sensors, outlets, lightbulbs, LED drivers, air quality sensor, air purifier). No problems whatsoever. I believe I haven’t touched any of it for a year.
I've got a single motion sensor, and all light bulbs in the house done with IKEA's TRADFRI bulbs, all bought nearly a year ago. The stack is a zigbee USB stick, Zigbee2MQTT, mosquitto and HA.
The lights are decent, I've had 2 fail so far, but both were on the same spot so I suspect something's wrong there.
The motion sensor has been pretty reliable, still working with no signs of failure. Delays or "dropped" events (the light not turning on) have been very rare and most likely a result of the ancient server I have than the motion sensor itself.
The lights are decent, I've had 2 fail so far, but both were on the same spot so I suspect something's wrong there.
The motion sensor has been pretty reliable, still working with no signs of failure. Delays or "dropped" events (the light not turning on) have been very rare and most likely a result of the ancient server I have than the motion sensor itself.
> Delays or "dropped" events (the light not turning on) have been very rare and most likely a result of the ancient server I have than the motion sensor itself.
Heads up: you can bind two ZigBee devices directly. So a sensor can trigger a light without requiring a hub to even be on. It can even work across the mesh network.
Heads up: you can bind two ZigBee devices directly. So a sensor can trigger a light without requiring a hub to even be on. It can even work across the mesh network.
Z-Wave is less power-efficient in real life. And you can say that because up until recently there had been exactly ONE chip that implemented the Z-Wave stack.
You could open any Z-Wave device and find exactly the same chip, usually on a daughterboard. It worked well enough on mains power, but battery life sucked. This started to change several years ago, but battery-powered devices are still hit-and-miss.
ZigBee has always had a robust infrastructure of manufacturers, who actually compete on quality and price.
You could open any Z-Wave device and find exactly the same chip, usually on a daughterboard. It worked well enough on mains power, but battery life sucked. This started to change several years ago, but battery-powered devices are still hit-and-miss.
ZigBee has always had a robust infrastructure of manufacturers, who actually compete on quality and price.
I expect these will be; the current IKEA Zigbee products are a both inexpensive & well implemented; they are very popular and well-supported by open source ecosystems like Zigbee2mqtt, home assistant, etc.
Each one of these is definitely cheaper that my Rapberry Pi Pico W project with my son but not nearly as much fun.
What's the best Zigbee repeater, to get signal to a different part of the house? I used to use a smart bulb, but people kept turning it off at the switch or moving it.
I find the Ikea outlet switches are great repeaters. Always plugged in, easy to move around.
The old SmartThings zigbee outlets are rock solid as well, and also have current monitoring. I used mine both as a repeater and to detect a jammed auger in my cat feeder.
I've also had good luck with the Sonoff outlet switches. I've got several of those around the house doing nothing but being mesh repeaters.
I also have a few of these, mine serve as actual switches though. Sonoff stuff is solid.
I use the Ikea outlets and Hue bulbs.
An important part of my setup is that all the switches in my house still work, and won't actually cut power to the bulbs. There are decent options available to add a Zigbee (or wifi) dimmer/relay/remote behind an existing light switch, which is also great for controlling lights that aren't Zigbee and/or multiple devices simultaneously.
This has the added benefit that the stuff it's controlling doesn't have to be on the same circuit, and "rewiring" a light switch is done very quickly in software instead of physically rewiring.
An important part of my setup is that all the switches in my house still work, and won't actually cut power to the bulbs. There are decent options available to add a Zigbee (or wifi) dimmer/relay/remote behind an existing light switch, which is also great for controlling lights that aren't Zigbee and/or multiple devices simultaneously.
This has the added benefit that the stuff it's controlling doesn't have to be on the same circuit, and "rewiring" a light switch is done very quickly in software instead of physically rewiring.
> all the switches in my house still work, and won't actually cut power to the bulbs
It sounds like you really mean the switches don't work? Shouldn't they cut power to the bulbs?
A core part of my home automation is that it fails gracefully. All my switches work with or without any Internet or home assistant server. My electronic locks still have a keypad and physical key, etc. If all the brains went away today, the only impact would be living life the old way. Under no circumstances do I want to find myself in the dark because my server crashed or the Internet connection failed.
It sounds like you really mean the switches don't work? Shouldn't they cut power to the bulbs?
A core part of my home automation is that it fails gracefully. All my switches work with or without any Internet or home assistant server. My electronic locks still have a keypad and physical key, etc. If all the brains went away today, the only impact would be living life the old way. Under no circumstances do I want to find myself in the dark because my server crashed or the Internet connection failed.
> Shouldn't they cut power to the bulbs?
Yes, but only if the light it's controlling isn't zigbee. If the light itself is Zigbee I never want that device offline, because it's frustrating to have inconsistent state when controlling it through the various ways we're used to.
> A core part of my home automation is that it fails gracefully.
Same. Most of my light switches have a Zigbee relay (or Shelly) behind them controlling non-Zigbee lights, and I can flip the physical switch (which still works if/when LAN or Zigbee is down) or use remotes/voice/automation through HomeAssistant.
I do have a couple light switches that I've hard-wired to be always-on and the switch itself relies on HA to function, but that's only because they were hooked up to a single outlet and became much more useful as a "remote" rather than a hardwired 110v toggle.
Yes, but only if the light it's controlling isn't zigbee. If the light itself is Zigbee I never want that device offline, because it's frustrating to have inconsistent state when controlling it through the various ways we're used to.
> A core part of my home automation is that it fails gracefully.
Same. Most of my light switches have a Zigbee relay (or Shelly) behind them controlling non-Zigbee lights, and I can flip the physical switch (which still works if/when LAN or Zigbee is down) or use remotes/voice/automation through HomeAssistant.
I do have a couple light switches that I've hard-wired to be always-on and the switch itself relies on HA to function, but that's only because they were hooked up to a single outlet and became much more useful as a "remote" rather than a hardwired 110v toggle.
The Hue wall switch dongle creates a "fake" switch, the bulb is powered 100% of the time, the on/off on the wall switch just tells the hub to tell the bulb to switch on/off.
You'll find that the failure mode is the opposite of what you're worried about. If you rip out your hub and flip your main fuse off/on you'll find yourself in the blinding light, not the dark. When the bulbs are powered on and can't reach the hub they default to 100%.
You'll find that the failure mode is the opposite of what you're worried about. If you rip out your hub and flip your main fuse off/on you'll find yourself in the blinding light, not the dark. When the bulbs are powered on and can't reach the hub they default to 100%.
> When the bulbs are powered on and can't reach the hub they default to 100%.
This is actually one of my favorite features.
If I mess up my HA setup or anything like that, then worse case my "smart bulbs" are functionally identical to "dumb bulbs"
This is actually one of my favorite features.
If I mess up my HA setup or anything like that, then worse case my "smart bulbs" are functionally identical to "dumb bulbs"
Very happy with the news! I have about 40-45 zigbee devices in the home - 20ish bulbs and switches connected to the Hue gateway (soon to be abandoned thanks to Philips' new account requirements.... screw them, but that's another story), the rest mostly sensors connected to my zigbee2mqtt/Homeassistant setup.
I am very happy with the Aqara devices but they're relatively expensive. The sonoff stuff is garbage (sometimes needs re-association with the controller for no clear reason, and always when I replace the batteries.. which is often), the IKEA stuff (switches and motion sensors mostly) has by far the best price/performance ratio and is quite reliable, but the battery life is quite disappointing on all of them.
The new motion sensor having 3 AAA batteries (rather than 2xCR2032) should ensure a rather less disappointing battery life!
I am very happy with the Aqara devices but they're relatively expensive. The sonoff stuff is garbage (sometimes needs re-association with the controller for no clear reason, and always when I replace the batteries.. which is often), the IKEA stuff (switches and motion sensors mostly) has by far the best price/performance ratio and is quite reliable, but the battery life is quite disappointing on all of them.
The new motion sensor having 3 AAA batteries (rather than 2xCR2032) should ensure a rather less disappointing battery life!
I absolutely love the use of IKEA’s smart home products. For me they have been very reliable and work with Apple HomeKit.
But nearly all of their electric devices are odd shapes for the USA. For example, their Tradfri outlets take are so bulky that they prevent two from being plugged into a standard two plug outlet.
But nearly all of their electric devices are odd shapes for the USA. For example, their Tradfri outlets take are so bulky that they prevent two from being plugged into a standard two plug outlet.
Jumping into the smart home conversation: IKEA's stepping up their game with these Zigbee sensors. Affordable, sleek, and you don't even need their hub – a win for DIY smart home enthusiasts! It's like IKEA meets high-tech without breaking the bank. Comparing with Xiaomi's offerings, IKEA's got some neat features, but hey, there's that size difference. Maybe IKEA's going for durability over discretion? And, amidst the tech showdown, let's not forget about privacy – a big shoutout to those mindful of what's phoning home. In the world of smart sensors, it's all about finding that sweet spot between functionality, price, and trust.
I really like that you can increasingly use many of their things with rechargable aaa batteries instead of having to keep buying CR2032 coin cells. Also they last much longer
What’s the practical indoor range like on these? I’ve found the useful range of Z-Wave devices to be embarrassingly poor, and I think it’s largely because, in the US market, some kind of regulatory issue limits transmit power to 0dBm or maybe even less. (Z-wave LR is much higher, but it’s not ready for prime time.). ZigBee apparently allows up to 30dBm, which should more than make up for the less favorable frequency range.
Does anyone have any experience with how far it can reach through typical indoor construction?
Does anyone have any experience with how far it can reach through typical indoor construction?
I wasn't aware of the purported regulatory radio limits on power, but I can report anecdotally that I found a huge jump in usability/signal strength/ownership satisfaction when I started replacing my old ZWave 1 stuff with the 500-series or above hardware (ZWave "Plus" is the name for these sometimes).
This "LR" stuff you mention is what I think some are calling the Z-Wave 800 series. It more than doubles the radio range of the 500 series stuff and greatly reduces power draw for battery devices. However, I have 500 and 700 series sensors that only need a battery change once every ~2 years or so. I don't find that to be too much, and the signal strength has been no problem for me in an old brick house. I do have a handful of powered zwave devices around though, and these act automatically as repeaters for the other devices in the mesh.
This "LR" stuff you mention is what I think some are calling the Z-Wave 800 series. It more than doubles the radio range of the 500 series stuff and greatly reduces power draw for battery devices. However, I have 500 and 700 series sensors that only need a battery change once every ~2 years or so. I don't find that to be too much, and the signal strength has been no problem for me in an old brick house. I do have a handful of powered zwave devices around though, and these act automatically as repeaters for the other devices in the mesh.
More details:
https://www.silabs.com/documents/login/presentations/design-...
I’m having a surprisingly hard time finding EU regulatory limits for Z-wave non-LR. ISTR some source saying that the FCC had a much stronger limit on power spectral density, which is where the -1dBm limit came from, and the EU may allow something higher.
https://www.silabs.com/documents/login/presentations/design-...
I’m having a surprisingly hard time finding EU regulatory limits for Z-wave non-LR. ISTR some source saying that the FCC had a much stronger limit on power spectral density, which is where the -1dBm limit came from, and the EU may allow something higher.
I have a mix of 700 and 800 series Z-wave gear, and I find it borderline useless — a mesh hop struggles to reach one room over.
LR is a rather different thing — slightly different frequency, very different topology, and it requires explicit controller software support. As far as I can tell, most or all 800 series hardware supports LR, 700 might with appropriate firmware, and earlier chips do not. node-zwave-js does not yet support LR, but someone seems to be working on it (slowly).
LR is a rather different thing — slightly different frequency, very different topology, and it requires explicit controller software support. As far as I can tell, most or all 800 series hardware supports LR, 700 might with appropriate firmware, and earlier chips do not. node-zwave-js does not yet support LR, but someone seems to be working on it (slowly).
Zwave has better range than zigbee because it uses a lower frequency that penetrates walls much better.
Zigbee theoretically can use this same frequency but in practice none of the devices do.
Make sure your hub has actual external antennas.
Zigbee theoretically can use this same frequency but in practice none of the devices do.
Make sure your hub has actual external antennas.
External antennas on a hub don’t help on the hop from device to device.
Anyway, I believe that Z-wave outside the US has better range that ZigBee. I’m thoroughly unconvinced that this is the case in the US, but I haven’t seen actual data.
Anyway, I believe that Z-wave outside the US has better range that ZigBee. I’m thoroughly unconvinced that this is the case in the US, but I haven’t seen actual data.
Hopping is widely advertised, but in practice is not really used as much as you might think.
With external antennas most of your devices (unless you have a really large home) will connect directly to the hub. And even the ones that hop will go through walls better with the Z-wave frequency - this especially helps if you have lath and plaster in your home, or metal electrical boxes for the switches/outlets.
The z-wave frequency in other countries is basically the same - they are all in the upper 800's, lower 900's MHz. https://www.silabs.com/wireless/z-wave/global-regions
With external antennas most of your devices (unless you have a really large home) will connect directly to the hub. And even the ones that hop will go through walls better with the Z-wave frequency - this especially helps if you have lath and plaster in your home, or metal electrical boxes for the switches/outlets.
The z-wave frequency in other countries is basically the same - they are all in the upper 800's, lower 900's MHz. https://www.silabs.com/wireless/z-wave/global-regions
My Zigbee battery temperature and humidity sensors struggle to do 10m with 1 concrete wall between the receiver and sensor. Tried Aqara, Tuya and Sonoff (avoid the Sonoff one).
What’s wrong with the Sonoff one (except maybe the range, I dunno)? I have four of these, they’re reasonably accurate (within 1 °C from each other) and work fine for me.
I find the Sonoff drops off the network more than the others, the humidity sensor is well outside accuracy and drifts over time, and is the first to have run out of battery.
It's the humidity sensor that makes it a "No buy" for me.
It's the humidity sensor that makes it a "No buy" for me.
Each zigbee device extend your reach and small usb powered repeater exists, in practice if you have a few devices, the signal reach is a non-existent problem!
Each zigbee device _that is mains powered_ extends your reach. In theory you could make a battery powered repeater, but there aren't any on the market AFAIK.
Those who have installed smart motion sensors to turn lights on and off, why not install light switches with sensors built in? Like the kind one finds in office and school environments? I have one in a room and it works well. Never have to worry about batteries or privacy or security implications with the rest of my network.
Because those usually cost about an arm and a leg more than buying separately, and also don't allow for the kind of things you can automate (read "script") in homeassistant
> Parasoll is a typical window and door sensor that can be discretely mounted to trigger an automation
Discrete sensors are a benefit to IKEA (to help them sell them), but consumers probably care more about them being discreet.
Discrete sensors are a benefit to IKEA (to help them sell them), but consumers probably care more about them being discreet.
Too bad it's not zwave.
At the $10 price point? Z-wave stuff always seems to cost more, and my understanding is that is largely due to the requirements for compatibility and testing per Z-wave alliance. I'd be shocked if this same thing could even be made at reasonable margins for $10.
The flip side to this, is Zigbee stuff always has a lot of little quirks, problems, or bugs. There's literally an entire module/database for ZHA (Zigbee Home Assistant addon) called ZHA Quirks that's designed to work around all the little issues with various devices.
The flip side to this, is Zigbee stuff always has a lot of little quirks, problems, or bugs. There's literally an entire module/database for ZHA (Zigbee Home Assistant addon) called ZHA Quirks that's designed to work around all the little issues with various devices.
Yeah, I used to be a big fan of Z-Wave, but the effective price minimum is killing it. Zigbee and (eventually) Matter seem like the way forward.
Agreed. I love zigbee for its HA integrations. Fully off zwave now. Recently just added some IKEA motion senors and bulbs and everything is working so nice.
Have an older z-wave heater valve that seems to be on a version of the protocol no one bothers to be backwards compatible with. Never happened with zigbee no matter the amount of quirks needed from zigbee2mqtt.
I don't agree. I was an early adopter and I still have some Z-Wave devices, but I won't miss them when they're gone. Pairing is a hassle, unpairing just as bad or worse, and licensing costs mean the devices themselves are always more expensive. My USB dongle for Home Assistant supports both Z-Wave and Zigbee, and as I add new devices and upgrade old ones over time, I'm not buying any new Z-Wave.
I prefer zwave as well. As long as you have repeaters (pretty much any light switch) and a good hub (zwave js ui NOT the default one) you will be fine. I run about 20 nodes right now and upgrading to zwave js ui over the default fixed my node graph so everything had a good signal. I do want to see more thread around
Zigbee does just fine with repeaters as well. You just need to be strategic with placing repeater-capable devices around the house, since the range isn't quite as good as Z-wave gear due the frequency.
Meh, I have som Z-wave switches in the house (some in-wall rockers, some wall-wart smart plugs) and the experience has been mixed. Flaky switches (GE-branded), flaky firmware (SmartThings hub), etc.
I'll be happy when/if Thread becomes the norm and I can just run everything through Apple HomeKit. Though for some reason, I still don't see a Thread in-wall dimmer available, which seems crazy to me.
I'll be happy when/if Thread becomes the norm and I can just run everything through Apple HomeKit. Though for some reason, I still don't see a Thread in-wall dimmer available, which seems crazy to me.
I've had really good luck with the Leviton Z-Wave switches & dimmers. Haven't had a single problem with them in about 3 years of use.
Ha! All my GE switches have been replaced with Leviton now. So far, so good. I think I've had to hard reset and repair one of them in 3 years, so not too bad.
But some days I'm tempted to swap them all for Lutron Caseta. That just gets a bit pricey (both to swap, and then to expand).
But some days I'm tempted to swap them all for Lutron Caseta. That just gets a bit pricey (both to swap, and then to expand).
Same experience here. Every once in a while a switch will go offline and I have to toggle it to get it to rejoin the network.
These switches are all GE (Jasco) units. My Inovelli switches are rock solid, as well as my Kwikset deadbolt.
I should probably replace the GEs with Inovellis...
These switches are all GE (Jasco) units. My Inovelli switches are rock solid, as well as my Kwikset deadbolt.
I should probably replace the GEs with Inovellis...
All my older Z-wave switches are Jascos, and while they've been solid for a while now on the Z-Wave part, the relays have been failing over time. One day you turn it on, and instead of staying on, it starts to cycle on-off, on-off, on-off, on-off indefinitely.
I use cheap & generic Zigbee sensors in the Tuya ecosystem. On Ali there are many brands like Aubess and MOES but the devices are often identical between brands.
This is awesome! These are good candidates for building your own stuff, I would say. I do really need a garage door sensor for example.
These (motion sensors) are gonna be great for a cheap DYI alarm for bicycles/motorcycles when parked outside.
It appears these are all battery powered and wireless. Probably also means they're quite easy to jam with a low powered transmitter. Still are likely useful to protect against the impulsive crimes of opportunity. It's also a bit weird that washing machines don't come with water leak sensors but I guess manufacturers don't want to highlight the possibility of their products causing water damage.
If a burglar is sophisticated enough to identify intrusion sensors and deploy countermeasures, they're typically not going to be targeting residential homes.
More bizarre to me still is the fact laundry rooms are built without a drain at the lowest point of the floor. That's in fact a feature I would desire in every room of a custom home.
The downside of floor drains is that drains are bidirectional and drain backups come out of the lowest point. That's probably ok in a laundry room or bathroom, but wouldn't be nice in other rooms.
Could you route the drains to plumbing lower down in the system? I'm picturing all wet rooms draining to a funnel in the basement via a dedicated gravity drain system. He did say 'custom home'....
Unless you're running a pumped drain system, all of your drains must route to plumbing lower down.
If upper floors' floor drains route to lower floors before joining with other plumbing on the lower floor, that would prevent backups from rising to the upper floor drains (unless their particular pipe was clogged, which should be unusual in a residential floor drain). But you'll have this issue at least at the lowest level of the dwelling.
Basements are not common where I've lived, but where present in custom houses, they tend to be fully finished and plumbed and then they'd have floor drains too.
In some buildings elsewhere, I have seen a less finished basement, with only laundry and a slop sink... That slop sink may be where a backup from the lateral to the utility sewer (or septic system) would come out. But that's not a common look for a fully custom home.
If upper floors' floor drains route to lower floors before joining with other plumbing on the lower floor, that would prevent backups from rising to the upper floor drains (unless their particular pipe was clogged, which should be unusual in a residential floor drain). But you'll have this issue at least at the lowest level of the dwelling.
Basements are not common where I've lived, but where present in custom houses, they tend to be fully finished and plumbed and then they'd have floor drains too.
In some buildings elsewhere, I have seen a less finished basement, with only laundry and a slop sink... That slop sink may be where a backup from the lateral to the utility sewer (or septic system) would come out. But that's not a common look for a fully custom home.
A lotta slop sinks are just washing machine drains. Lets your machine pump as quickly as it wants without needing to a separate high-flow drain. And buys you more litres of backflow before its a real problem. Tho some washing machines can pump up quite a few feet if needed.
Lived in an apartment where the front-loader managed to pump a sock into the high-flow drain where it got stuck. That was fun...
(Also had a front-loader break it's door seal, also a lot of fun...)
Lived in an apartment where the front-loader managed to pump a sock into the high-flow drain where it got stuck. That was fun...
(Also had a front-loader break it's door seal, also a lot of fun...)
Many parts of the US don't have basements. The lowest point is inside the slab, so drains are relatively constrained.
Even if there is a basement, a lot of homes will have a gravity sewer line that is above the level of the basement floor, and utilize ejector/sump pumps for water below the elevation of the sewer.
Backflow preventers are common in some areas. But you're kinda in the dark if it's activated and shouldn't run anything down any drain on your side.
Not only common, but required by building code.
Maybe in newer construction, but in older (ie: before flood maps were a consideration, good drainage, grading, storm sewers), generally not.
What's even more problematic is that new North American homes are often constructed with a washer/dryer "conveniently" placed near a bedroom, typically on the upper level, and yet, they are still installed without a drain.
Drain aside (which, AFAIK, would be required by code where I live) I'd love to have the washer/dryer located near bedrooms. Having the laundry off the kitchen, garage, or in the basement creates needless make-work transporting clothes across the house. I don't ever disrobe or dress outside my kitchen, garage, or in my basement. (It would make more sense if the laundry backed-up to the bedroom closets.)
Wouldn't the noise and vibration get tiresome quickly? Or are new machines quiet and stable enough that it's not an issue?
We usually do laundry on the weekends, during the day. It's actually more annoying in the basement, as that's where the familyroom/TV are located (and the wall between the W&D and family room is just single-layer drywall, with the W&D right there).
My washer and dryer are in a washer-and-dryer-sized closet in the hall near my bedroom, but I guess the noise insulation is good enough that I don't hear it when it's running at night.
I’m relatively sensitive to noises (analog clocks are a hard no-go because of their soft ticking; it’s infuriating trying to sleep somewhere that has them). But I barely hear our dryer when it’s running at night, and it’s just on the other side of our bedroom wall. As long as we aren’t doing a load with lots of hard buttons and things (which make a louder clinking sound when tumbling) the dryer is totally fine at night.
The washing machine, not so much. The water lines and spin cycle aren’t particularly loud, but they’re loud and distinct enough that it’s too loud for me at night.
The washing machine, not so much. The water lines and spin cycle aren’t particularly loud, but they’re loud and distinct enough that it’s too loud for me at night.
I've got a 12+ hour window every day in which nobody is in the bedrooms.
Concur. I live in a 1970s townhouse with a basement laundry room. It's annoying to cart loads of laundry down 2 levels and back up again.
I'd love to have an upstairs W&D, but I wouldn't install one with a secondary drain pan.
I'd love to have an upstairs W&D, but I wouldn't install one with a secondary drain pan.
I have a laundry up stairs. However a drain must be installed in my area to meet code.
>That's in fact a feature I would desire in every room of a custom home.
Some reasons I would not want this is: need to pour water in periodically to keep the trap from drying out and the risk of a sewage backup covering every room in literal shit.
Some reasons I would not want this is: need to pour water in periodically to keep the trap from drying out and the risk of a sewage backup covering every room in literal shit.
I believe there's a regulation here that requires a drain in the floor of laundry room here in Denmark, but the same isn't the case for kitchens, so a dishwasher can still do a lot of damage.
It is really weird that for all the smart crap manufactures want to stuff into appliances, leak detection isn't particularly high up on the list. It can't really be because it's hard to do, leak detectors are often one of the earliest sensor types available for new smart home kits.
It is really weird that for all the smart crap manufactures want to stuff into appliances, leak detection isn't particularly high up on the list. It can't really be because it's hard to do, leak detectors are often one of the earliest sensor types available for new smart home kits.
The question I guess is reliability of the leak detectors themselves. Will the detector fail more often than the actual unit leaks?
TIL: A secondary drain often isn't required by code (in the US). I'm also shocked by this, seems obvious, especially for a machine that's above ground-level.
Laundry rooms here in Japan (or rather, bathrooms that have a space for a laundry machine, usually next to the sink) are built exactly that way: the drain is in the floor, under the machine. It's honestly bizarre that this is not normal in the US.
> It's also a bit weird that washing machines don't come with water leak sensors but I guess manufacturers don't want to highlight the possibility of their products causing water damage.
A sensor can alert someone but doesn't stop the water. There are alternatives:
1) An electric valve directly at the tap that the machine actuates when it needs water. Usually comes with hose-in-hose to capture water from a ruptured line and detect and stop releasing water.
2) Quantity limiting devices to limit the quantity that can be used contiguously, and reset when the flow stops. Set to the maximum needed by the machine. Should there be any leak, the possible damage is limited. No electricity needed.
A sensor can alert someone but doesn't stop the water. There are alternatives:
1) An electric valve directly at the tap that the machine actuates when it needs water. Usually comes with hose-in-hose to capture water from a ruptured line and detect and stop releasing water.
2) Quantity limiting devices to limit the quantity that can be used contiguously, and reset when the flow stops. Set to the maximum needed by the machine. Should there be any leak, the possible damage is limited. No electricity needed.
All the window sensors I ever saw were going inside the window frames. Times change I guess
Any chance of a sensor that can detect whether doors are locked (rather than open?)
Schlage makes some that use ZWave Plus (500 series or better, didn't check the spec sheet). I have an older model that works nicely for this.
https://www.schlage.com/en/home/smart-locks/connect-zwave.ht...
This would give you the "is locked or not" capability you seek here, but obviously requires a replacement of your door lock (perhaps not trivial if renting, but is a very easy DIY otherwise).
https://www.schlage.com/en/home/smart-locks/connect-zwave.ht...
This would give you the "is locked or not" capability you seek here, but obviously requires a replacement of your door lock (perhaps not trivial if renting, but is a very easy DIY otherwise).
That sounds like it could be a lazer/ir gate in the lock hole to detect it being in the way, but the custom job to jam it into the frame side of the lock might be quite delicate work if it's wood, or even worse if the frame is some prefab unit. Another DYI alternative would be to open the lock and see if you can stick a magnet somewhere in the mechanism where it won't impede movement and that has enough space for the solenoid. Neither of these are what I'd call complex, but also wouldnt call them easy to pull off. I would have to assume that somewhere out there someone is selling this already made.
I have a few Emtek locks which support locking and opening detection. Premium brand from Yale, which has a Yale Zigbee module. They also have Zwave support.
Offshoot topic but is there such a thing as an outdoor leak sensor?
I’d love to have one on my pool equipment but it would need a way to ignore rain.
I’d love to have one on my pool equipment but it would need a way to ignore rain.
You'd need something with brains. Detecting the water is easy, but you want something that can check local weather and correlate with that. Ideally a rain sensor at the same location. I could do this with my Tempest and Home Assistant, I'm sure. But... I've never had a pool equipment leak that bothered me. All my equipment is outside the house and a leak isn't a top concern. if it were in the garage, I'd be more inclined to put a sensor there, but then rain correlation wouldn't be a problem.
Leaks are persistent, weather is not. Either present the raw data and interpret it yourself, or gate any alert on potential precipitation in your area.
Zigbee is reliable and quite open. Just go for the Homeassistant and zigbee2mqtt route. You will be able to interact with almost anything from Homeassistant.
I just finished moving all my Hue lights from the official hub to zigbee2mqtt + USB dongle, in preparation for the upcoming enshitification (Hue app will require online account).
I just finished moving all my Hue lights from the official hub to zigbee2mqtt + USB dongle, in preparation for the upcoming enshitification (Hue app will require online account).
I am disappointed that these are not matter out the gate, the door/window sensor and the motion sensor would be instant buys for me (likely several).
IKEA does do a good job with Homekit support (unless the new hub is different) but really wish I did not need that hub anymore.
I am glad that someone is trying to push down the insane home automation tech prices.
Side note: I really hate modern SEO. There is not a single link to the actual Hub mentioned in the article, but there are 2 links to the same article about said hub twice.
IKEA does do a good job with Homekit support (unless the new hub is different) but really wish I did not need that hub anymore.
I am glad that someone is trying to push down the insane home automation tech prices.
Side note: I really hate modern SEO. There is not a single link to the actual Hub mentioned in the article, but there are 2 links to the same article about said hub twice.
I’ve been wanting to jump into home automation for YEARS but the awful mix of incompatible products and standards coupled with the frequent deprecation of products which often require an online presence, and the outrageous prices being asked for these quite frankly beta products, kept me away. Once matter is standard I expect prices to drop and that’s when I think it’s safe to jump in.
Zigbee was the solution that solved these complaints for me. My home automation works 100% offline, thanks to Home Assistant + Zigbee.
Posted it in another comment here already, but this is my go-to resource to figure out compatibility: https://zigbee.blakadder.com/
And pretty much any zigbee device can be compatible with any gateway. In many cases it's just whether someone has taken the time to wire it up in the software or not.
Posted it in another comment here already, but this is my go-to resource to figure out compatibility: https://zigbee.blakadder.com/
And pretty much any zigbee device can be compatible with any gateway. In many cases it's just whether someone has taken the time to wire it up in the software or not.
As another sibling suggested you should seriously consider HomeAssistant here. A main selling point is it's ability to seamlessly integrate with an arbitrary mixture of Zigbee/ZWave/Matter/Kasa/<etc> devices under one management interface.
I've been running it for years, keeping up to date with the regular new versions, and haven't had any major complaints for basic use cases like: "I want to turn on <set of lights> when <arbitrary condition occurs> (e.g. sundown, certain sensors detect < X lux of light, wifi device is seen by access point based on its MAC). Super useful. Huge world of possibilities, limited only by your hardware and imagination.
I've been running it for years, keeping up to date with the regular new versions, and haven't had any major complaints for basic use cases like: "I want to turn on <set of lights> when <arbitrary condition occurs> (e.g. sundown, certain sensors detect < X lux of light, wifi device is seen by access point based on its MAC). Super useful. Huge world of possibilities, limited only by your hardware and imagination.
Just use HomeAssistant and find ESPHome compatible hardware. It drastically simplifies everything and there are even vendors like CloudFree [1] that support it out of the box.
I've got several outdoor and indoor hydryponics systems set up that way and it's been a joy (except for the RaspberryPi SD card dying on me, which I've since replaced with a more reliable SSD based SBC)
[1] https://cloudfree.shop/
I've got several outdoor and indoor hydryponics systems set up that way and it's been a joy (except for the RaspberryPi SD card dying on me, which I've since replaced with a more reliable SSD based SBC)
[1] https://cloudfree.shop/
What kind of hydroponic automation are you doing?
I've got an indoor living wall that I'm thinking of converting to hydro.
I've got an indoor living wall that I'm thinking of converting to hydro.
Mostly just controlling valves and pumps. I have a dutch bucket system with peristaltic pumps pumping nutrients and pH up/down into a reservoir from which water is pumped to the buckets. An additional nutrient film setup runs on its own with the occasional top up.
Indoors I just have relays controlling lighting and air pumps for a deep water culture system.
Indoors I just have relays controlling lighting and air pumps for a deep water culture system.
HomeAssistant works, but I'm always surprised when it is praised on Hacker News given the preponderance here for rewriting every program in Rust.
Home Assistant is an unwieldy monolith where spitting out the components would give you so much more control. The side that receives the data works well, however. The quality of the plotting in it is substandard, as is the inbuilt data storage and access. Configuring via YAML is painful, especially when you want derived values (e.g. calculating absolute humidity from RH sensor readings. HomeAssistant comes with no way to clean up dirty data which is something you'll see on their forums that many people request, as cheap sensors are notorious for spurious readings.
It's easy and polished which is why I and I suspect others use it, but I wish there was a modular rewrite.
Home Assistant is an unwieldy monolith where spitting out the components would give you so much more control. The side that receives the data works well, however. The quality of the plotting in it is substandard, as is the inbuilt data storage and access. Configuring via YAML is painful, especially when you want derived values (e.g. calculating absolute humidity from RH sensor readings. HomeAssistant comes with no way to clean up dirty data which is something you'll see on their forums that many people request, as cheap sensors are notorious for spurious readings.
It's easy and polished which is why I and I suspect others use it, but I wish there was a modular rewrite.
I agree with the monolith comment, but I am not sure the jab at Rust is warranted.
If we are rewriting HomeAssistant, let's do it in Rust :) Only half joking.
That said, I refuse to write automation in YAML. Logic doesn't really belong in YAML. Declarative stuff would be decent if all you did was to specify a desired end state and let it figure out how to get to that state. But triggers with the equivalent of 'if' conditions that run actions? Let me write the IF. It makes a big difference if you say "Lights should be on between X and Y" versus "condition: after: x before: y: action: turn on". Trivial cases are easy, but when you start combining them it becomes a nightmare.
I have done a lot with NodeRED but it is... strange. It does save me from writing YAML (I do enough of that on my day job), at the expense of being weird and not easy to debug.
As for plotting data, you can send that to Prometheus or InfluxDB and go from there.
I also wish there was an alternative. And more modular "plugins". And a "HA" option. As it is, I have a single raspberry Pi that, while backed up and could be replicated if needed, will go offline for updates and the like, not able to run any automation in the mean time.
It does work though.
If we are rewriting HomeAssistant, let's do it in Rust :) Only half joking.
That said, I refuse to write automation in YAML. Logic doesn't really belong in YAML. Declarative stuff would be decent if all you did was to specify a desired end state and let it figure out how to get to that state. But triggers with the equivalent of 'if' conditions that run actions? Let me write the IF. It makes a big difference if you say "Lights should be on between X and Y" versus "condition: after: x before: y: action: turn on". Trivial cases are easy, but when you start combining them it becomes a nightmare.
I have done a lot with NodeRED but it is... strange. It does save me from writing YAML (I do enough of that on my day job), at the expense of being weird and not easy to debug.
As for plotting data, you can send that to Prometheus or InfluxDB and go from there.
I also wish there was an alternative. And more modular "plugins". And a "HA" option. As it is, I have a single raspberry Pi that, while backed up and could be replicated if needed, will go offline for updates and the like, not able to run any automation in the mean time.
It does work though.
> insane home automation tech prices
And yet some comments are complaining that it’s more expensive than a Tuya-based solution or whatever. I think this is at the heart of the problem: people want the longevity and cost of a dumb-home product, but the value of these things is rooted in software. Cognitive dissonance ensues—“you want me to pay a subscription for a door lock?” At least here, IKEA is allowing point-to-point communication that could eliminate moving targets of other companies’ software.
The new hub is different, and does not work with the old Ikea system.
And yet some comments are complaining that it’s more expensive than a Tuya-based solution or whatever. I think this is at the heart of the problem: people want the longevity and cost of a dumb-home product, but the value of these things is rooted in software. Cognitive dissonance ensues—“you want me to pay a subscription for a door lock?” At least here, IKEA is allowing point-to-point communication that could eliminate moving targets of other companies’ software.
The new hub is different, and does not work with the old Ikea system.
> I really hate modern SEO.
I totally agree, but the real problem is people uncritically sharing and promoting articles from low-quality publications. In other words, your wrath is better directed at the HN users who submit and upvote articles from these low-effort sites. There are plenty of publications, such as LWN, that use links to help the reader, rather than to help themselves through Google’s algorithms.
I totally agree, but the real problem is people uncritically sharing and promoting articles from low-quality publications. In other words, your wrath is better directed at the HN users who submit and upvote articles from these low-effort sites. There are plenty of publications, such as LWN, that use links to help the reader, rather than to help themselves through Google’s algorithms.
Same here. I also find myself peeved at the article author, who for some reason decided to spend half a paragraph essentially parroting the company's PR over just how justified this delay is, despite earlier mentioning that they promised Matter support over a year ago.
> Ikea ... has “decided to delay this functionality” and will provide an update “when it’s time.” The ongoing delay is understandable given that Ikea’s products already integrate well with other platforms, and the company is focused on keeping things as simple as possible for anyone who delves into the smart home on a whim while shopping for a new bookcase. And when you consider the hurdles required to get everything running on Matter networks during this period of transition, Ikea’s delay is more than justified.
> Ikea ... has “decided to delay this functionality” and will provide an update “when it’s time.” The ongoing delay is understandable given that Ikea’s products already integrate well with other platforms, and the company is focused on keeping things as simple as possible for anyone who delves into the smart home on a whim while shopping for a new bookcase. And when you consider the hurdles required to get everything running on Matter networks during this period of transition, Ikea’s delay is more than justified.
Would you buy a hub that adds matter to old zigbee devices?
Of course. Rather replace the hub than 23 sensors.
Working on it, expect it after summer. Zigbee+ble+thread+wifi, but currently only sold in EU and for now only supports our own zigbee devices. Search for Ferguson Digital FS2SH. This hub already has ZB, we will add thread via dongle + firmware update. We plan to add matter support to all devices which we can control (slowly adding more, we want them all, but are limited by number of programmers). It's also a little HN worthy, because we plan to use standard nrf dongle and hub will program it on the fly after insertion (for other protocols in future), so you could buy it cheaply yourself. Plus, it has unhindered openwrt root console on easily accessible header inside (will void warrranty though).
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I've got a Moen Flo water sensor I really love. It was something like $25 with no monthly fee, has a surprisingly good app (also measures temp + humidity) and can even be paired with a valve that automatically turns off the water in the case of a detected leak.
What I like best about it is it can not only set off a siren and notify me in the app, it'll also send a text message and even call my phone which is huge because if I have a water leak I want to know no matter what.
What I like best about it is it can not only set off a siren and notify me in the app, it'll also send a text message and even call my phone which is huge because if I have a water leak I want to know no matter what.
The Moen Flo valve does more than that! Every night it will shutoff your water and observe the pressure. If the pressure drops when the valve is off it will alert you of a leak. They're a bit costly at ~400 bucks, but water damage is so expensive it's worth it. I have one and it's great.
Insurance companies will give you a small discount if you have one installed as well.
Insurance companies will give you a small discount if you have one installed as well.
Where do you put it?
It lives under my sink where I have a bunch of piping to filters that feed the drinking faucet, fridge, and dishwasher.
I live in a co-op building from 1929 so it's really the only point of failure in the unit that would be my liability if there was a leak and it already saved me once when the old tailpiece on my drain cracked.
I live in a co-op building from 1929 so it's really the only point of failure in the unit that would be my liability if there was a leak and it already saved me once when the old tailpiece on my drain cracked.
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I just want water leak sensors that make a loud alarm noise, I don't need wifi connected crap with hubs. I can use my preexisting camera setup to pick up the alarm noise and alert me. I'm home most of the time and if I'm not for an extended period, I typically turn the water off (not entirely, just in zones). Anyone know of any analog water leak sensors?
Six dollars - https://www.homedepot.com/p/resideo-Water-Heater-and-Sump-Pu...
There are a bunch of options at Home Depot, Lowes, and your local hardware store.
There are a bunch of options at Home Depot, Lowes, and your local hardware store.
You can find this kind of sensor on Aliexpress for a few euros, if the hardware stores near you don't carry them.
Any idea how these leak sensors work? Is it just waiting to potentially be dripped on by a leak? If so, could you just replace the sensor with a gapped circuit that would be bridged by dripping water?
They are usually just two exposed contacts waiting to be bridged by water, yeah.
> The Badring water sensor includes a built-in siren (60dBA at 1m) that can alert you when it senses a leak
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07J9HZ5VN
These have a loud alarm on them and I don't believe they need to be hooked up to the hub to work (just for push notifications).
These have a loud alarm on them and I don't believe they need to be hooked up to the hub to work (just for push notifications).
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So is IKEA turning into an AI company by deploying billions of new control sensors in a giant time series network?
Maybe not AI, but certainly it's a great way to make a side business as a data company.
> detect opening doors and windows, motion indoors and out
If these devices are sending that data back to Ikea, they're surely planning to monetize it somehow.
> detect opening doors and windows, motion indoors and out
If these devices are sending that data back to Ikea, they're surely planning to monetize it somehow.
Except they don't. They are ZigBee-Devices - which means they connect to your Local Hub, no matter what manufacturer. Now, what the Hub does is something else, but NOT controlled by IKEA . Also, the IKEA the Hub does not need any Internet Connection at all to work.
Also, it seems like they did their homework.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/371121017_Security_...
I am all for shitting on BigCo when they do something bad. But when someone does something right, it's just fair to point that out too.
Also, it seems like they did their homework.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/371121017_Security_...
I am all for shitting on BigCo when they do something bad. But when someone does something right, it's just fair to point that out too.
Its rare to find a company like IKEA that are only releasing home automation where you DONT have to worry about being spied on.
These devices are Zigbee, IKEA has been selling those for years. They can’t send data to IKEA, because they can’t send data anywhere, except the rest of your Zigbee mesh.
No, didn't you read the article? They're 'democratizing' the smart home.
I do have to say, I really, really hate that word. Not once have I seen it used correctly - for anything other than to promote a product that's $5 cheaper than the competition.
The motion sensor looks like a decent improvement on the existing one. I have to admit that I don't have the battery life issues that many people seem to have with the current model, but I've only got two of these sensors so maybe I got lucky.
The door sensor looks weird though. It seems a lot larger than the equivalent Xiaomi Aqara sensor. Maybe it uses AAA batteries instead of coin cells or something.
Generally speaking, I really like the Ikea Zigbee stuff. Everything I've got is well-supported by Zigbee2MQTT, including OTA updates. Most of my Ikea stuff has never even been paired to Ikea's hub.