Cryostasis Revival(alcor.org)
alcor.org
Cryostasis Revival
https://www.alcor.org/cryostasis-revival/
43 comments
Here is a timeline of developments in the space over time, created by Mati Roy: https://timelines.issarice.com/wiki/Timeline_of_brain_preser...
I'd actually be encouraged to see donated organs cryopreserved, and used for transplant long after their unpreserved expiry.
When we are using cryopreserved organs, then preserving the brain becomes more obviously pragmatic.
I am guessing that cryopreserved human kidneys do not have uniform cooling, spoiling interior tissue. A rabbit kidney is much smaller, and wouldn't suffer as much from this problem.
When we are using cryopreserved organs, then preserving the brain becomes more obviously pragmatic.
I am guessing that cryopreserved human kidneys do not have uniform cooling, spoiling interior tissue. A rabbit kidney is much smaller, and wouldn't suffer as much from this problem.
This is currently happening with ovarian tissue: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6558345/
Hmm... maybe it would work better if you actually circulated chilling liquid through it, rather than just sticking it in a freezer.
The interior veins and arteries of a kidney look like it would be a reasonably good heat exchanger.
The interior veins and arteries of a kidney look like it would be a reasonably good heat exchanger.
I find it a big stretch to call it a medical procedure when they don't have a clue as to how to revive the patient. We could call it "desperate measure", "Hail Mary", or something similar that acknowledges the odds of someone undoing the damage at some point in the future are vanishingly low.
it's mostly a scam currently.
Medical nanorobots still seem incredibly hand-wavey. I'd stop laughing if I saw one good example of this technology such as a tumor being successfully neutralized with nanorobotics. That'd be the obvious place to start since you're just destroying cancerous cells not repairing or constructing anything.
Yes. I knew Eric Drexler when he was touting nanotechnology, in the form of atomic-scale programmable robots. There's been very little progress on that in the last twenty years. Microtechnology, mechanical things made with IC fab technology, has made some progress. But that's several orders of magnitude larger than atoms.
What's called "nanotechnology" today is mostly surface chemistry.
What's called "nanotechnology" today is mostly surface chemistry.
Lots of freezer burnt bodies out there. And a few very wealthy people.
How do you keep a cryostasis business honest when you - the customer - are dead and there is no profitable reason to keep you from becoming like that loose frozen hamburger at the bottom of my freezer?
How do you keep a cryostasis business honest when you - the customer - are dead and there is no profitable reason to keep you from becoming like that loose frozen hamburger at the bottom of my freezer?
> freezer burnt
Freezer burn occurs when moisture escapes from frozen biospecimens due to slow freezing and temperature fluctuations. It's not an issue during storage in liquid nitrogen, which causes much faster freezing and has a much colder storage temperature level.
> And a few very wealthy people
Cryonics is not only accessible to the very wealthy. There are options available that are equal or less expensive than an average funeral.
> How do you keep a cryostasis business honest when you - the customer - are dead and there is no profitable reason to keep you from becoming like that loose frozen hamburger at the bottom of my freezer
1: The companies are non-profits so profit is irrelevant. 2: You look at their long-term reputation which is important for them to get new clients. This is why Alcor has been around for 50 years without thawing a single one of their patients.
Freezer burn occurs when moisture escapes from frozen biospecimens due to slow freezing and temperature fluctuations. It's not an issue during storage in liquid nitrogen, which causes much faster freezing and has a much colder storage temperature level.
> And a few very wealthy people
Cryonics is not only accessible to the very wealthy. There are options available that are equal or less expensive than an average funeral.
> How do you keep a cryostasis business honest when you - the customer - are dead and there is no profitable reason to keep you from becoming like that loose frozen hamburger at the bottom of my freezer
1: The companies are non-profits so profit is irrelevant. 2: You look at their long-term reputation which is important for them to get new clients. This is why Alcor has been around for 50 years without thawing a single one of their patients.
> The companies are non-profits so profit is irrelevant
They still need to be able to keep the fridges on.
> This is why Alcor has been around for 50 years without thawing a single one of their patients.
Which means "without proving they can actually deliver what clients expect".
They still need to be able to keep the fridges on.
> This is why Alcor has been around for 50 years without thawing a single one of their patients.
Which means "without proving they can actually deliver what clients expect".
> They still need to be able to keep the fridges on.
I believe they are usually set up to invest the money people paid in, then keep the lights on with returns on that. They're not using the money directly.
> Which means "without proving they can actually deliver what clients expect".
They're very clear that they can't promise anything. People are willing to take the chance anyhow.
I believe they are usually set up to invest the money people paid in, then keep the lights on with returns on that. They're not using the money directly.
> Which means "without proving they can actually deliver what clients expect".
They're very clear that they can't promise anything. People are willing to take the chance anyhow.
tln(2)
Well, in that case, instead of just being dead, you're dead and broke.
My biggest concern with this idea is not having control over who wakes you up and how. Who knows who eventually owns/operates Alcor? What if their interests become misaligned wrt customers?
As one hypothetical example, imagine Meta buys Alcor. Maybe their lawyers work it out that importing customer consciousness into the metaverse is legal and fulfills the contract. But when this happens the metaverse has safeguards that don't allow you to kill anyone including yourself. And now your consciousness is in the metaverse for an effective eternity. Maybe that sounds nice to you but maybe the thought makes you a bit uncomfortable as it does for me.
As one hypothetical example, imagine Meta buys Alcor. Maybe their lawyers work it out that importing customer consciousness into the metaverse is legal and fulfills the contract. But when this happens the metaverse has safeguards that don't allow you to kill anyone including yourself. And now your consciousness is in the metaverse for an effective eternity. Maybe that sounds nice to you but maybe the thought makes you a bit uncomfortable as it does for me.
> Who knows who eventually owns/operates Alcor?
Anyone who looks them up online can find this information easily. It is required to be public since they are a 501(c)(3) non-profit. Here are their current board of directors: https://www.alcor.org/library/alcor-board-of-directors/
> What if their interests become misaligned wrt customers?
Anything is possible but this seems extremely unlikely given their governing structure and requirements for being on the board of directors. Alcor has been criticized in the past because they fall very far in favor of protecting their existing patients in cryopreservation rather than making accommodations for prospective patients, leading to them turning away prospective patients for a variety of reasons.
From: https://www.alcor.org/library/alcors-self-perpetuating-board...
> A fundamental rationale for selecting the self perpetuating Board structure was its ability to provide continuity of purpose over a long period of time. Existing Board members select those new Board members who they believe are best able to preserve Alcor’s core values and carry out its mission. All Board members are required by Alcor Bylaws to be Alcor members. While not required by the Bylaws, we also find that Alcor Board members are cryonicists of long standing and are well known within the cryonics community. By tradition, new Board members are usually sought from the ranks of Alcor Advisors, although the Board can and has selected Board Members who have not been Advisors. Board members have a strong incentive to choose carefully because the success of Alcor and the survival of our members — including our Board members — is heavily dependent on the abilities and character of future Boards of Directors.
BTW, I'm not a shill for Alcor. I think some aspects of their operations are worthy of criticism. But this is not one of them. If you disagree, feel free to state why, but I would recommend at least learning the basics about them before doing so.
Anyone who looks them up online can find this information easily. It is required to be public since they are a 501(c)(3) non-profit. Here are their current board of directors: https://www.alcor.org/library/alcor-board-of-directors/
> What if their interests become misaligned wrt customers?
Anything is possible but this seems extremely unlikely given their governing structure and requirements for being on the board of directors. Alcor has been criticized in the past because they fall very far in favor of protecting their existing patients in cryopreservation rather than making accommodations for prospective patients, leading to them turning away prospective patients for a variety of reasons.
From: https://www.alcor.org/library/alcors-self-perpetuating-board...
> A fundamental rationale for selecting the self perpetuating Board structure was its ability to provide continuity of purpose over a long period of time. Existing Board members select those new Board members who they believe are best able to preserve Alcor’s core values and carry out its mission. All Board members are required by Alcor Bylaws to be Alcor members. While not required by the Bylaws, we also find that Alcor Board members are cryonicists of long standing and are well known within the cryonics community. By tradition, new Board members are usually sought from the ranks of Alcor Advisors, although the Board can and has selected Board Members who have not been Advisors. Board members have a strong incentive to choose carefully because the success of Alcor and the survival of our members — including our Board members — is heavily dependent on the abilities and character of future Boards of Directors.
BTW, I'm not a shill for Alcor. I think some aspects of their operations are worthy of criticism. But this is not one of them. If you disagree, feel free to state why, but I would recommend at least learning the basics about them before doing so.
I agree it looks like someone tried to handle the thorny cases, but without real force of law protecting the corpsicles (perhaps revive-able, perhaps not) then it makes me think of "greater fool" investments, except in this case it might be charitably amended to "greater altruist".
Every person buying in--or perhaps checking in--to the system needs to trust that there's another person coming after them who is equally-invested in the projects' success, and at least able to pay the power/maintenance bills.
Somewhat aside, the fiction book Cryoburn (a long way through the excellent Vorkosigan saga) does explore some of these issues in the background: The protagonist visits a planet where the frozen citizens have their voting-rights delegated to whichever corporations hold their storage/revival contracts. (In fact, some corporations are even trying to commoditize contracts so that they can be traded, in a likely allusion to CDOs during the 2008 property crash.)
Every person buying in--or perhaps checking in--to the system needs to trust that there's another person coming after them who is equally-invested in the projects' success, and at least able to pay the power/maintenance bills.
Somewhat aside, the fiction book Cryoburn (a long way through the excellent Vorkosigan saga) does explore some of these issues in the background: The protagonist visits a planet where the frozen citizens have their voting-rights delegated to whichever corporations hold their storage/revival contracts. (In fact, some corporations are even trying to commoditize contracts so that they can be traded, in a likely allusion to CDOs during the 2008 property crash.)
>perhaps revive-able, perhaps not
One of the core problems of cryonics is the suite of technologies needed to revive a person from the frozen state and then fix whatever was wrong with them before freezing is indistinguishable from physical immortality. So once we can revive corpsicles, nobody will ever be frozen again! So there's no situation where you could actually get that tested body of law around corpsicle rights.
The cryonicsphile response is, of course, that the alternative is death. Even if there's a 1 in 100 chance of being thawed, even if you're legally enslaved to pay off the unfreezing debt or are returned as an uploaded brain in a computer, that's still better than rotting in the ground, right?
One of the core problems of cryonics is the suite of technologies needed to revive a person from the frozen state and then fix whatever was wrong with them before freezing is indistinguishable from physical immortality. So once we can revive corpsicles, nobody will ever be frozen again! So there's no situation where you could actually get that tested body of law around corpsicle rights.
The cryonicsphile response is, of course, that the alternative is death. Even if there's a 1 in 100 chance of being thawed, even if you're legally enslaved to pay off the unfreezing debt or are returned as an uploaded brain in a computer, that's still better than rotting in the ground, right?
I agree there's a problem there, but I don't think it's quite that absolute, since people might be frozen for other reasons.
For example:
1. A patient with a rabies diagnosis, awaiting a future treatment.
2. Someone born with with muscular dystrophy, waiting for a retrogenic cure.
3. Someone who has simply run out of time to wait for a difficult to find donor organ.
4. The victim of gross physical trauma where there are too many. Holes to plug and things to sew and tubes to reconnect for it to be done safely in a warm state.
Any of those things could provide the necessary legal test cases without implying anything about whether we've cracked functional immortality or not.
For example:
1. A patient with a rabies diagnosis, awaiting a future treatment.
2. Someone born with with muscular dystrophy, waiting for a retrogenic cure.
3. Someone who has simply run out of time to wait for a difficult to find donor organ.
4. The victim of gross physical trauma where there are too many. Holes to plug and things to sew and tubes to reconnect for it to be done safely in a warm state.
Any of those things could provide the necessary legal test cases without implying anything about whether we've cracked functional immortality or not.
>Anyone who looks them up online can find this information easily.
The specific concern is about who operates it _eventually_ (perhaps centuries from now.) I can look up who is on their current board and what their governance structure happens to be now but it isn't relevant to my hypothetical concern. Lots can happen in relatively short periods of time and the well-meaning intent behind their current governance structure can surely always be subverted by sufficiently incentivized and devious humans. I also don't mean this as a specific critique of Alcor. My concern is about the general concept of "freeze-now and wake-in-100s-of-years."
The specific concern is about who operates it _eventually_ (perhaps centuries from now.) I can look up who is on their current board and what their governance structure happens to be now but it isn't relevant to my hypothetical concern. Lots can happen in relatively short periods of time and the well-meaning intent behind their current governance structure can surely always be subverted by sufficiently incentivized and devious humans. I also don't mean this as a specific critique of Alcor. My concern is about the general concept of "freeze-now and wake-in-100s-of-years."
I think the legal issues start occurring even sooner than that. If the person is dead, they can't enter into contracts, and the US has a rule against perpetuities, so at some point it's not clear exactly who can keep the company from during away all their biological samples.
If the person is not dead, then at what point have they effectively been kidnapped if the company chooses not to revive them? (Maybe someone says the technology is ready, maybe someone else disagrees.)
If the person is not dead, then at what point have they effectively been kidnapped if the company chooses not to revive them? (Maybe someone says the technology is ready, maybe someone else disagrees.)
This is actually the first act plot for We Are Legion (We Are Bob). Turns out cryo preserved brains are a decent starting point for subservient AI smart enough to perform tasks. A fun read, but a serious possibility.
> not having control over who wakes you up and how.
I wouldn't worry about that at all. The odds of someone waking you up from cryostasis are very low.
I wouldn't worry about that at all. The odds of someone waking you up from cryostasis are very low.
The probability of waking up is low, but it still represents 50% of all possible outcomes at that point.
I’d say there are billions of plausible outcomes that end in the victim not waking up and, at best, a dozen where they do.
Of course, from the victim’s point of view, they always wake up. If they never do, at least they won’t feel disappointed.
Of course, from the victim’s point of view, they always wake up. If they never do, at least they won’t feel disappointed.
Copies of your consciousness aren’t you.
That's about as meaningful as saying that your yesterday's self is not you. Once you apply the ship of Theseus to your higher brain function thoroughly enough things can get really weird.
You're making assumptions about the nature of this hypothetical future consciousness transfer system.
I would be very sad for them, but, then, if my brain is vitrified, I am past the ability of feeling sorry for anyone.
In the video game "Rimworld", humans explore space using sub-light spacecraft piloted by AI carrying people frozen in cryosleep. A trip to a different star may take thousands of years, and you don't necessarily know where you'll end up. Of course the idea has been explored in many sci-fi stories. (If someone knows which was the first, it would be interesting to know)
Such technology always seemed much more reasonable than warp drive or other similar science fiction. I can believe that in a few centuries we have figured out how to revive a person from cryostasis.
Such technology always seemed much more reasonable than warp drive or other similar science fiction. I can believe that in a few centuries we have figured out how to revive a person from cryostasis.
In a few centuries (and a couple hundred medical nightmares)
There are a lot of issues with this whole process. Never mind the thawing part; unless you can guarantee a timeframe, there is always the ongoing maintenance costs, what happens with a seismic event (frozen lattice + kinetic energy), scarcity of key components during an economic recession, and so on.
Then there is the past record of, ah, interesting developments. https://bigthink.com/the-future/cryonics-horror-stories/
Then there is the past record of, ah, interesting developments. https://bigthink.com/the-future/cryonics-horror-stories/
I came here to share that article in case nobody had yet. It provides a very healthy reality check in discussions on this topic.
I thought it was about a remake or something for this game:
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/cryostasis-review
So I clicked :)
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/cryostasis-review
So I clicked :)
> revival from human cryopreservation, using medical nanorobots.
lets just hope that every scifi franchise got the eventuality of this tech wrong....
lets just hope that every scifi franchise got the eventuality of this tech wrong....
Reminder: sign up for cryopreservation _before_ your terminal diagnosis, while you are still healthy (ie NOW)! It is funded by a life insurance policy, which becomes way more expensive by the time you know you’re going to need preservation soon.
Do it now, not later. I waited too long and now there is no affordable life insurance available. :(
Do it now, not later. I waited too long and now there is no affordable life insurance available. :(
welcome to the world of tomorrow!
"'I understood that reference' - Captain America" - Michael Scott
tl;dr Nanomachines, son!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryopreservation#Vitrification
"Mixtures of cryoprotectants and the use of ice blockers have enabled the 21st Century Medicine company to vitrify a rabbit kidney to −135 °C with their proprietary vitrification mixture. Upon rewarming, the kidney was transplanted successfully into a rabbit, with complete functionality and viability, able to sustain the rabbit indefinitely as the sole functioning kidney."
EDIT: I will pull the PDF for the book later today.