How Hertz’s bet on Teslas went sideways(bloomberg.com)
bloomberg.com
How Hertz’s bet on Teslas went sideways
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2024-04-03/hertz-htz-selling-electric-cars-ends-its-failed-tesla-bet
569 comments
https://archive.ph/uyTuG
The article posits charging as the problem but that's not actually true.
The issue was twofold: 1. Repair cost and parts availability. Fleet damage was more expensive to repair and took longer. That means more of the fleet is offline at any given time and cost to operate is a bit higher. 2. Tesla lowered prices forcing them to recognize the depreciation. The cars resale value dropped faster than they anticipated.
Car and RV rental companies have this problem. People don't want to rent ragged out vehicles. In the case of RVs units for rental are built extra cheap so they don't last anyway. The model is get more in rent then you lose in depreciation then dump the vehicle. In the case of RVs they often turnover the entire fleet yearly.
The real killer was no doubt depreciation. That breaks the whole rental car model.
The issue was twofold: 1. Repair cost and parts availability. Fleet damage was more expensive to repair and took longer. That means more of the fleet is offline at any given time and cost to operate is a bit higher. 2. Tesla lowered prices forcing them to recognize the depreciation. The cars resale value dropped faster than they anticipated.
Car and RV rental companies have this problem. People don't want to rent ragged out vehicles. In the case of RVs units for rental are built extra cheap so they don't last anyway. The model is get more in rent then you lose in depreciation then dump the vehicle. In the case of RVs they often turnover the entire fleet yearly.
The real killer was no doubt depreciation. That breaks the whole rental car model.
Not sure why you think charging is not the problem.
I am a very heavy user of rentals (300+ rentals last year, 200+ the year before - max status on National / Enterprise, Hertz and Avis) and I've rented an EV (Tesla Model 3) exactly once.
Most users don't have the time to think about places to charge and even more so, to bring it back at 80%
Not to mention, outside of major metropolitan areas (US and Canada), charging infrastructure is spotty at best (esp. if you don't plan for it).
This makes charging an added hurdle that takes away from the experience.
If you're a business user - you don't do it because you don't have the time and if you're a leisure user - you don't do it because your vacation time is valuable and spending time at charging stations that are usually out of the way is not ideal time spent for an expensive vacation)
I am a very heavy user of rentals (300+ rentals last year, 200+ the year before - max status on National / Enterprise, Hertz and Avis) and I've rented an EV (Tesla Model 3) exactly once.
Most users don't have the time to think about places to charge and even more so, to bring it back at 80%
Not to mention, outside of major metropolitan areas (US and Canada), charging infrastructure is spotty at best (esp. if you don't plan for it).
This makes charging an added hurdle that takes away from the experience.
If you're a business user - you don't do it because you don't have the time and if you're a leisure user - you don't do it because your vacation time is valuable and spending time at charging stations that are usually out of the way is not ideal time spent for an expensive vacation)
I own an EV, I wouldn't rent one except: single day, and don't make me recharge it. The infrastructure sucks. I don't install charger apps on my phone; the number of chargers that just take a credit card and don't require an account -- even my local power utility requires a special card to access their network!
With my own car, in my home town, it isn't a problem. My garage has a lvl1 charger for grocery getting; I know a few account-free fast chargers around town, and that's all I need. A multi-day trip, or a rental company putting the onus on me to return it full, just isn't worthwhile.
With my own car, in my home town, it isn't a problem. My garage has a lvl1 charger for grocery getting; I know a few account-free fast chargers around town, and that's all I need. A multi-day trip, or a rental company putting the onus on me to return it full, just isn't worthwhile.
A thousand times this. Hertz dumped a Polestar on me on a 6 week trip in Britain and it was absolutely ridiculous. No cash option anywhere. Most charging stations didn't even accept a credit card, and those that did required installing a badly written app that only works 20% of the time. Most apps/chargers only link your bank account, and I'm a fucking tourist, I don't have a bank account. And to top it all off, absolutely no charger anywhere gives out receipts, so I couldn't present the receipts/invoices for tax purposes.
> Most apps/chargers only link your bank account
That's just not true of the UK market. Most fast chargers accept credit cards using a contactless reader - indeed, by law, they will soon all have to. Of the main charging networks app based payments:
Shell - charges to your credit card, BP Pulse - credit account topped by by credit card, PodPoint - credit account topped up by credit card, VendElectric - credit account topped up by credit card, Fuuse/evpoint - charges to your credit card, Mer - charges to your credit card, ChargePoint - credit account topped up by credit card
That's just not true of the UK market. Most fast chargers accept credit cards using a contactless reader - indeed, by law, they will soon all have to. Of the main charging networks app based payments:
Shell - charges to your credit card, BP Pulse - credit account topped by by credit card, PodPoint - credit account topped up by credit card, VendElectric - credit account topped up by credit card, Fuuse/evpoint - charges to your credit card, Mer - charges to your credit card, ChargePoint - credit account topped up by credit card
You probably know better than me, but in those 6 weeks I drove in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and I charged a lot, in many different stations. Many did not accept a credit card:
In Scotland, many chargers only accepted some specialty charging card that foreigners can't buy.
Many stations claimed they do accept credit cards, but when I got there, card payments were conveniently "disabled at this time".
Apps that did take credit card _all_ refused to work with non-British billing addresses. The only app I got to work was ChargePoint, and I only succeeded in that after many trails and errors, looking for ways to trick it into thinking I was British and getting it to successfully charge my card (which eventually I did). And they do not charge your card per session, they randomly bill your card based on usage predictions. They still haven't returned me the 75 pounds they stole from me on the last day of my rental, because they figured I was surely going to need them soon.
And again, no receipts anywhere.
All in all, it was an awful experience.
EDIT: I only now notice that I wrote _most_ stations only link with your credit card. That's most probably an exaggeration, I suppose that was just the impression I ended with. All in all, I wasted exorbitant amounts of time on that trip purely on charging. Quite a few stations also failed on me, now that I'm ranting. In Northern Ireland, chargers often could not be used because there was no cell reception so I couldn't use the app, and cards were not accepted. One charger abruptly terminated my session mid-charge and made a scary noise and refused to work again. Turns out the charger stopped because _it itself_ lost Internet connection.
In Scotland, many chargers only accepted some specialty charging card that foreigners can't buy.
Many stations claimed they do accept credit cards, but when I got there, card payments were conveniently "disabled at this time".
Apps that did take credit card _all_ refused to work with non-British billing addresses. The only app I got to work was ChargePoint, and I only succeeded in that after many trails and errors, looking for ways to trick it into thinking I was British and getting it to successfully charge my card (which eventually I did). And they do not charge your card per session, they randomly bill your card based on usage predictions. They still haven't returned me the 75 pounds they stole from me on the last day of my rental, because they figured I was surely going to need them soon.
And again, no receipts anywhere.
All in all, it was an awful experience.
EDIT: I only now notice that I wrote _most_ stations only link with your credit card. That's most probably an exaggeration, I suppose that was just the impression I ended with. All in all, I wasted exorbitant amounts of time on that trip purely on charging. Quite a few stations also failed on me, now that I'm ranting. In Northern Ireland, chargers often could not be used because there was no cell reception so I couldn't use the app, and cards were not accepted. One charger abruptly terminated my session mid-charge and made a scary noise and refused to work again. Turns out the charger stopped because _it itself_ lost Internet connection.
Ah, Scotland is a whole different country... :) Charging networks in the UK evolved from a set of regional schemes commissioned by the Government under the Plugged-In-Places programme. At that time, it couldn't be assumed that drivers had smartphones and contactless payment was still fairly new, so RFID cards were the exclusive route for accessing chargers. Many of these networks then folded into commercial providers in time, such as Source East being taken over by BP Pulse. During the programme you'd pay £10 for the card for the year, then all charging was free.
Charge Place Scotland continued to be run by the Scottish Government.
> non-British billing addresses
I can feel your pain there.
>And they do not charge your card per session, they randomly bill your card based on usage predictions.
ChargePoint has an auto-topup mechanism when your balance drops below a defined amount. The trick is to set the top up amount to be small.
> And again, no receipts anywhere.
In the app go to "Account" then "Monthly Statement". Select the month you care about, then share it using your email client. A PDF will be attached.
> All in all, it was an awful experience.
The big issue we've had has been with broken chargers and, at least in the past, a proliferation of charge networks. There's more roaming coming now, partly mandated by law, but the reliability issue still remains.
And yes, renting an EV in a market you're not familiar with is a pain. I've had that landed on me when visiting the USA, too.
> I only now notice that I wrote _most_ stations only link with your credit card.
Right - that's what I was disagreeing with.
Charge Place Scotland continued to be run by the Scottish Government.
> non-British billing addresses
I can feel your pain there.
>And they do not charge your card per session, they randomly bill your card based on usage predictions.
ChargePoint has an auto-topup mechanism when your balance drops below a defined amount. The trick is to set the top up amount to be small.
> And again, no receipts anywhere.
In the app go to "Account" then "Monthly Statement". Select the month you care about, then share it using your email client. A PDF will be attached.
> All in all, it was an awful experience.
The big issue we've had has been with broken chargers and, at least in the past, a proliferation of charge networks. There's more roaming coming now, partly mandated by law, but the reliability issue still remains.
And yes, renting an EV in a market you're not familiar with is a pain. I've had that landed on me when visiting the USA, too.
> I only now notice that I wrote _most_ stations only link with your credit card.
Right - that's what I was disagreeing with.
I take it you don't have a tesla? I've had a non-tesla EV and the infrastructure did suck.
The infrastructure for a tesla is significantly better, and you don't have to install an app - everything is right there built into the car. It will add charging stops as part of navigation if you want. The superchargers are plentiful, have lots of stalls (rarely full) and are very fast. There is no fumbling with apps, credit cards or payment authorization, you just plug in.
The infrastructure for a tesla is significantly better, and you don't have to install an app - everything is right there built into the car. It will add charging stops as part of navigation if you want. The superchargers are plentiful, have lots of stalls (rarely full) and are very fast. There is no fumbling with apps, credit cards or payment authorization, you just plug in.
Thanks, but I've read their ad copy before.
With a Tesla you don't install apps or use a credit card. You just plug into their Superchargers (which are automatically added to your route if the car needs to charge to get to your destination). In the US, the largest gap between superchargers is Coeur d'Alene, Idaho to St. Regis, Montana (94 miles). I've gone on road trips all over the western US and never worried about charging.
1. You're talking about Tesla ownership, not rental.
2. You still need a very specific payment source, even if it's not physically on you at the time of purchase. If you're a foreigner, this may be literally impossible for you. Many places only work by linking with your local bank account. Tourists do not have local bank accounts.
2. You still need a very specific payment source, even if it's not physically on you at the time of purchase. If you're a foreigner, this may be literally impossible for you. Many places only work by linking with your local bank account. Tourists do not have local bank accounts.
Hertz just adds the charging costs to your rental bill. You don't set up any sort of payment in the car. The experience is the same as owning a Tesla.
I see, as far as I know that is not possible with Tesla rental in the UK (where my experience was). This is nice, but does it work with non-Superchargers? I wouldn't want to be tied down to one provider on vacation. Superchargers are rare in some countries.
The article is about Hertz renting out Teslas in the US. That's what I was talking about, and that's what I thought you were talking about because you didn't mention that your experience was based on renting a different brand of EV in a different country.
Teslas work fine with 3rd party chargers. It's just that (as you noticed with your Polestar rental) 3rd party chargers are inconvenient and tend to be poorly maintained.
Teslas work fine with 3rd party chargers. It's just that (as you noticed with your Polestar rental) 3rd party chargers are inconvenient and tend to be poorly maintained.
That's cool, but I'm not a tesla owner and I don't live in your country. When speaking of an international rental firm, I hope you understand that I'm going to base my expectations on past experiences, and not the best-case story of a tesla owner in a country I actively avoid traveling to.
The experience of renting a Tesla from Hertz is the same across countries. You can use Superchargers just like if you owned the vehicle. Hertz adds the charging costs to your bill. And looking at Tesla's charging map, the density of chargers in Europe is greater than in the western US. When I drove to Salt Lake City (800 miles), there were 14 Superchargers along the route. A similar trip in the EU or UK would have twice as many.
Basing your expectations on past experiences makes sense, but it also makes sense to update those expectations based on the reports of people who have been there and done that, so to speak.
Basing your expectations on past experiences makes sense, but it also makes sense to update those expectations based on the reports of people who have been there and done that, so to speak.
Between the site guidelines and Tesla's (in)famous lack of PR, I am compelled to assume that you are not a shill.
But it always astounds me how reliably Tesla owners attempt to convince me that water isn't wet. It really feels like you're trying to sell me on renting a Tesla from Hertz. But Hertz has written down their Teslas and they're replacing them with ICE vehicles. So why are you trying to convince me that renting a Tesla from Hertz is a good experience, when I can't even do that today? If it's such a good experience, what is this article about? What do you know that the finance wonks at Hertz don't know?
Sell to me. Why do I want to rent a car that's renowned for its big-screen touch interface, drunk&stoned UX decisions like the yoke, hitting parked emergency vehicles, and uploading livefeeds from the cabin for Tesla employees' amusement? What's the actual valprop over a Yaris, which has never tried to steer me into oncoming traffic? (message between the lines: attempt to entice me with FSD, or autopilot, and you will only undermine your case)
Because right now you're trying to move me from "charging a rental in a foreign country isn't stress I need in my life" to "this guy on the internet thinks that charging a Tesla is almost as easy as gassing up a Yaris." And that's still a million miles from sold.
But it always astounds me how reliably Tesla owners attempt to convince me that water isn't wet. It really feels like you're trying to sell me on renting a Tesla from Hertz. But Hertz has written down their Teslas and they're replacing them with ICE vehicles. So why are you trying to convince me that renting a Tesla from Hertz is a good experience, when I can't even do that today? If it's such a good experience, what is this article about? What do you know that the finance wonks at Hertz don't know?
Sell to me. Why do I want to rent a car that's renowned for its big-screen touch interface, drunk&stoned UX decisions like the yoke, hitting parked emergency vehicles, and uploading livefeeds from the cabin for Tesla employees' amusement? What's the actual valprop over a Yaris, which has never tried to steer me into oncoming traffic? (message between the lines: attempt to entice me with FSD, or autopilot, and you will only undermine your case)
Because right now you're trying to move me from "charging a rental in a foreign country isn't stress I need in my life" to "this guy on the internet thinks that charging a Tesla is almost as easy as gassing up a Yaris." And that's still a million miles from sold.
First, you said that EVs don’t have enough charging infrastructure for road trips, and you complained about charging apps, so I explained how that wasn’t a problem with Teslas (which is what this article is about). Then you said that it was different for rented Teslas in other countries, so I explained how that wasn't the case. Now you claim I’m trying to get you to use a Tesla. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I’ve never driven a Jeep. I don’t particularly care for Jeeps. But if someone says to me that they own a Jeep and it can do X, I’ll give that some credence. Sure they may be a Jeep fan, but they also have lots of experience with Jeeps. I definitely wouldn’t say, “That's cool, but I'm not a Jeep owner and I don't live in your country. I hope you understand that I'm going to base my expectations on past experiences, and not the best-case story of a Jeep owner in a country I actively avoid traveling to.” That would be rude and unproductive.
If the Jeep owner ignored the insult and said, “Actually Jeeps in other countries are quite similar and can also do X.”, I definitely would not reply by talking about how Jeep fans always try to convince me that Jeeps are great, yet they refuse to acknowledge Jeep’s poor reliability, lack of curtain airbags, rollover propensity, etcetera. To a neutral reader, that might come off like someone who is incapable of changing their mind.
I’ve never driven a Jeep. I don’t particularly care for Jeeps. But if someone says to me that they own a Jeep and it can do X, I’ll give that some credence. Sure they may be a Jeep fan, but they also have lots of experience with Jeeps. I definitely wouldn’t say, “That's cool, but I'm not a Jeep owner and I don't live in your country. I hope you understand that I'm going to base my expectations on past experiences, and not the best-case story of a Jeep owner in a country I actively avoid traveling to.” That would be rude and unproductive.
If the Jeep owner ignored the insult and said, “Actually Jeeps in other countries are quite similar and can also do X.”, I definitely would not reply by talking about how Jeep fans always try to convince me that Jeeps are great, yet they refuse to acknowledge Jeep’s poor reliability, lack of curtain airbags, rollover propensity, etcetera. To a neutral reader, that might come off like someone who is incapable of changing their mind.
Road trips?? The article is about rentals! I didn't say a thing about road trips. Glad we cleared that up.
Still have to wait in a queue though
> "The infrastructure sucks."
This depends a lot on where you are. I rented >10 times from Hertz in the UK last year, got an EV every time (mostly Polestar), and drove thousands of miles. Chargers are, now days, pretty much everywhere that you need them to be. Absolutely no issues charging, aside from the extortionate cost of a few of them, perhaps!
UK law requires that all new chargers support "ad-hoc" payment with a credit/debit card, which makes everything very easy and convenient (although often you can get a discounted rate by using membership-based apps).
This depends a lot on where you are. I rented >10 times from Hertz in the UK last year, got an EV every time (mostly Polestar), and drove thousands of miles. Chargers are, now days, pretty much everywhere that you need them to be. Absolutely no issues charging, aside from the extortionate cost of a few of them, perhaps!
UK law requires that all new chargers support "ad-hoc" payment with a credit/debit card, which makes everything very easy and convenient (although often you can get a discounted rate by using membership-based apps).
I'm trying to imagine having to have an account or install an app to gas up my Pontiac and I'm like ... gulp I better take really good care of this car.
On top of this, most times when I am renting, is via an airport. Airports are everywhere, but not everywhere. They're 1-6 hours from whereever you're going. And if your destination is say 4 hours from the airport, necessarily one is going to be worrying about charging as such. That alone slaughters the business model.
Easy solution for Hertz: don’t require it to be changed upon return. Where I live a full 100% charge from zero at residential prices is $8. It’d also improve the customer experience I bet, especially over gas cars where you either need to refuel or get nickel and dimed on yet another thing
From Hertz perspective, that car is now out of commission for half a day. Car rental companies rely on getting cars back on the road as quickly as possible once a rental period ends. A fleet that is parked, charging or waiting to be charged, is actively costing them money.
I’m pretty sure that if they’re using even remotely fast chargers, cleaning and inspection (and associated queuing) would take most of that time. I also suspect that most rental places aren’t so close to capacity that someone returning a car a few hours late would block a customer from pickup. There’s a certain amount of slack in the inventory.
I rented from an airport car rental once and the lot was _full_ of unused cars, and this was RDU which is a fairly high-volume airport. I can imagine you’d maybe have issues if you wanted a very specific kind of car, but even then I doubt you couldn’t find something comparable for around the same price
It's going to get charged to 80% only. That takes half an hour if they install DC fast chargers. That's how long a walk around inspection for damage and cleaning of the car inside/out takes.
That costs money of course. Let's pretend we're NOT on hackernews where we all love to talk technicalities.
This isn't about tech or practicalities. This is a decision about money. It's not worth installing all the infrastructure, it's not worth getting repairs slowly done out-of-house, it's not worth taking on depreciation of epic proportions, it's not worth having to educate customers and employees on how to use new cars and new processes.
It is just not cost effective for them.
That costs money of course. Let's pretend we're NOT on hackernews where we all love to talk technicalities.
This isn't about tech or practicalities. This is a decision about money. It's not worth installing all the infrastructure, it's not worth getting repairs slowly done out-of-house, it's not worth taking on depreciation of epic proportions, it's not worth having to educate customers and employees on how to use new cars and new processes.
It is just not cost effective for them.
What “half a day”? With proper infra it takes less than a couple of hours to charge even when charging 2 cars per charger.
2 hours is still a lot longer than 5 minutes. Rapid turnover is important for these folks. I've seen rental companies run out of cars numerous times. Two hours is tough. Plus, how about when dozens of cars have been turned in and are waiting on a charge? If anything, they are most likely to levy a higher fee for returning uncharged because of their lost time.
The article pointed out that some airports don’t have the electrical infrastructure to support enough super chargers. It’s partly a charging problem
No one said "supercharger."
If I can get a Level 2 charger installed at my house, surely it can be installed at at car rental business?
No way my house has better electrical infrastructure than an airport.
If I can get a Level 2 charger installed at my house, surely it can be installed at at car rental business?
No way my house has better electrical infrastructure than an airport.
you still have to clean and process ready for next customer. adding 2 hours to other work may make it half a day
You can't clean the car while it's plugged in?
It would seem ideal to have the line-up area where cars are turned in, inspected and cleaned set up with a bunch of retractable charger leads in the ceiling, ala shop air. As soon as you pull up, the attendant pulls down a lead and plugs the car in. Bam.
Out of commission? Is this some kind of joke? You know you can just charge money for the services that you are offering, right?
It seems like the same economics of tweaking the size of the fee for returning a rental Tesla uncharged, which is a flat $35 fee ($25 for Hertz Gold Club members) [0] vs the much higher rental cost ~$60-200/day [1], then most customers will skip recharging and pay the fee; just like returning an ICE car without refuelling (or comparable to returning it 1-2hrs later than the agreed time). Then it's Hertz's business model's challenge to figure out how to incentivize/penalize their customers. (If you return it at 79% do you still pay the same fee as if 10%? This is harsher than the unfuelled ICE penalty).
If Hertz has a "morning/evening rush hour gap" between when uncharged EVs are returned vs when they're charged and cleaned and available again, then (just like surge pricing, or same-day standby offers that airlines make when oversold) maybe send individual customers $$ incentives the evening before to charge it or return it earlier.
And as for improving first-time customer experience of renting EVs, Hertz has an incentive to do better with steering them towards reserving a hotel/motel with L1/L2 chargers (give them a coupon for the price premium), or at least nearby ones. At least on their last night before returning. Or help them plan out which nights it'll need recharge, based on their itinerary, then factor that advice into suggested hotel booking.
And another idea: the Hertz app could set reminders the day before for "If you want to return your car at 8am charged, and you estimate the return trip will take 45min and 8% of battery, then you need to charge overnight, or else start charging by (say) 5am, to 88%".
I don't see any of this as a limitation of EVs, just figuring out how to incentivize behavior modification in rental customers, improve the app, teach customers how to plan for it, give coupons, do hotel partnerships etc. If the Hertz app won't, then a calendaring or driving-directions app could.
[0]: https://www.hertz.com/us/en/vehicles/tesla/faq/your-first-dr...
[1]: https://www.way.com/blog/how-much-to-rent-a-tesla/
If Hertz has a "morning/evening rush hour gap" between when uncharged EVs are returned vs when they're charged and cleaned and available again, then (just like surge pricing, or same-day standby offers that airlines make when oversold) maybe send individual customers $$ incentives the evening before to charge it or return it earlier.
And as for improving first-time customer experience of renting EVs, Hertz has an incentive to do better with steering them towards reserving a hotel/motel with L1/L2 chargers (give them a coupon for the price premium), or at least nearby ones. At least on their last night before returning. Or help them plan out which nights it'll need recharge, based on their itinerary, then factor that advice into suggested hotel booking.
And another idea: the Hertz app could set reminders the day before for "If you want to return your car at 8am charged, and you estimate the return trip will take 45min and 8% of battery, then you need to charge overnight, or else start charging by (say) 5am, to 88%".
I don't see any of this as a limitation of EVs, just figuring out how to incentivize behavior modification in rental customers, improve the app, teach customers how to plan for it, give coupons, do hotel partnerships etc. If the Hertz app won't, then a calendaring or driving-directions app could.
[0]: https://www.hertz.com/us/en/vehicles/tesla/faq/your-first-dr...
[1]: https://www.way.com/blog/how-much-to-rent-a-tesla/
> "Not sure why you think charging is not the problem... Most users don't have the time to think about places to charge and even more so, to bring it back at 80%"
Nobody is forcing you to bring it back with 80%. Hertz's charging fees are not extortionate or unreasonable. If you don't have the time or inclination, just return it as-is and pay the per-kWh charging fee. It isn't all that much more than what it would cost you to supercharge it anyway!
(I don't disagree that charging is a problem when it comes to car rentals, but for the most part it's a psychological problem, not a real one.)
Nobody is forcing you to bring it back with 80%. Hertz's charging fees are not extortionate or unreasonable. If you don't have the time or inclination, just return it as-is and pay the per-kWh charging fee. It isn't all that much more than what it would cost you to supercharge it anyway!
(I don't disagree that charging is a problem when it comes to car rentals, but for the most part it's a psychological problem, not a real one.)
I'm curious, what's the point of renting 300 cars in a year? Why not just buy a car? That's close to renting a car daily, no? Unless you're flying to different places and renting cars there every day?
it was mostly for work (I was home for less than 1 month including weekends) & some vacations (~15-20 rentals for vacations). My car was also stolen and wreaked and due to the auto shortage, it took insurance 3 months to get me a new car (meaning, 3 months of rentals - each for 1 week term).
Never rented a Tesla through Hertz, but I did rent one through Turo once. The owner did stipulate that I return the car fully charged. However, he pointed out hotels in the area that offered charging. So, I just charged the night before I returned the car; couldn't have been easier. Not sure if Hertz has/had coordination with hotels that offer EV charging, but that would help in a lot of cases.
Since they can just install chargers at the rental location, you would think they wouldn't need to make renters worry about that like gas.
Yes, I think this was the primary reason actually. It only takes 1-2 times renting it before you realize that returning at 80% is a major hassle.
It's also a ridiculous stipulation since Hertz could easily charge the cars themselves. Instead they invested heavily in the EVs while keeping their archaic rule about returning at 80%. I wonder how much they could have made without this.
If they allowed returning at 20% it becomes less hassle than a gas car because many trips wouldn't require any charging at all and a much better user experience.
Filling up and then expensing gas while running late for a flight is super stressful, trying to charge an EV in that same scenario is like 10x worse.
It's also a ridiculous stipulation since Hertz could easily charge the cars themselves. Instead they invested heavily in the EVs while keeping their archaic rule about returning at 80%. I wonder how much they could have made without this.
If they allowed returning at 20% it becomes less hassle than a gas car because many trips wouldn't require any charging at all and a much better user experience.
Filling up and then expensing gas while running late for a flight is super stressful, trying to charge an EV in that same scenario is like 10x worse.
I rented a model 3 twice. One time I brought it back charged. The other time I dropped it off uncharged. I think it was $25? I didn't think it was that big a deal, doing the same with a gas car would have been 3-4x the price.
>Not to mention, outside of major metropolitan areas (US and Canada), charging infrastructure is spotty at best (esp. if you don't plan for it).
EV owner here. It’s VERY state and location dependent.
Generally speaking, if you’re following an interstate, charging won’t be a problem even “in the middle of nowhere”. If you aren’t following an interstate, in general, “red” states that haven’t had any programs to build out infrastructure are a nightmare compared to “blue” states that have. Tesla in general is far better about charging in the boonies than CCS.
EV owner here. It’s VERY state and location dependent.
Generally speaking, if you’re following an interstate, charging won’t be a problem even “in the middle of nowhere”. If you aren’t following an interstate, in general, “red” states that haven’t had any programs to build out infrastructure are a nightmare compared to “blue” states that have. Tesla in general is far better about charging in the boonies than CCS.
What in the world do you do? 300 rentals a year and you are range limited on those trips? Genuinely interested just can't even imagine your life!
I used to essentially be a consultant (left that life behind this year). My title was Junior Partner / Assoc Director.
I'd on one hand advice executives (public, private & gov) on strategy (usually focused on tech but also growth, finance etc.) and work with on-the-ground staff to figure out what was going on & implement changes (meaning tons of travel between my home base - Toronto, to on-site - all over US / CA, to engagement HQs - usually NYC / Washington / Chicago / Seattle / Nashville etc.)
I also took tons of (very-short) vacations in-between because I used to get super burnt-out (eg. my last day was Dec 31, and I ended up working at a client from Dec 5th to Jan 1st and flew back on the 1st to start my new job on the 2nd) and I love driving so I'd rent cars and drive all over (eg. Toronto to NYC to DC or Seattle to Vancouver to Whistler to Kamloops to Edmonton to Calgary, Toronto to Halifax etc.)
I used to joke that in general, any car I rented would come back with at least 1k km if I had it for more than 2 - 3 days)
Fun life (I'm just turning 29), enjoyed my job (tons of perks like I earned points for a lifetime on Air Canada and Marriott - my family used to joke that I'd treat my home as a hotel as I spent more time in hotels than at home), but I was grossly underpaid (I gave up a role that paid me 2x what I would have made for this) and I ended up on the wrong side of the politics at the consultancy (big 4) so I left on my terms (for a much better role) before I'd have been forced to.
I'd on one hand advice executives (public, private & gov) on strategy (usually focused on tech but also growth, finance etc.) and work with on-the-ground staff to figure out what was going on & implement changes (meaning tons of travel between my home base - Toronto, to on-site - all over US / CA, to engagement HQs - usually NYC / Washington / Chicago / Seattle / Nashville etc.)
I also took tons of (very-short) vacations in-between because I used to get super burnt-out (eg. my last day was Dec 31, and I ended up working at a client from Dec 5th to Jan 1st and flew back on the 1st to start my new job on the 2nd) and I love driving so I'd rent cars and drive all over (eg. Toronto to NYC to DC or Seattle to Vancouver to Whistler to Kamloops to Edmonton to Calgary, Toronto to Halifax etc.)
I used to joke that in general, any car I rented would come back with at least 1k km if I had it for more than 2 - 3 days)
Fun life (I'm just turning 29), enjoyed my job (tons of perks like I earned points for a lifetime on Air Canada and Marriott - my family used to joke that I'd treat my home as a hotel as I spent more time in hotels than at home), but I was grossly underpaid (I gave up a role that paid me 2x what I would have made for this) and I ended up on the wrong side of the politics at the consultancy (big 4) so I left on my terms (for a much better role) before I'd have been forced to.
The other issue is people rent cars where they do not live and are unfamiliar.
No one wants to hunt for a charging station when they need to get to a business meeting on time or enjoy their vacation.
It is also a change in consumer behavior. EV owners just aren’t that big a percentage of the total market, and ICE users aren’t going to learn EV on a business trip to unfamiliar territory.
No one wants to hunt for a charging station when they need to get to a business meeting on time or enjoy their vacation.
It is also a change in consumer behavior. EV owners just aren’t that big a percentage of the total market, and ICE users aren’t going to learn EV on a business trip to unfamiliar territory.
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It's interesting Tesla did not take the opportunity to install chargers at the rental dealerships at no cost or reduced cost, and have the rental company offer "no need to charge before you return it" deal.
> to bring it back at 80%
Why wouldn't the rental car company charge it?
Worst case, it's going to lose 2 hours on a 1+ day rental, right?
Why wouldn't the rental car company charge it?
Worst case, it's going to lose 2 hours on a 1+ day rental, right?
I'm not sure why you think charging anxiety couldn't have been one of the factors. TFA calls it out as one. Charging is one of the main concerns with ownership and that would be even more of a challenge with a rental car in an unfamiliar area.
Absolutely. My local paper's environmental columnist recently rented an EV and chronicled the experience. [1] There were so many compromises involved, largely related to charging/range. For example, she had to walk in the cold (Maine) from her hotel to her car, which she was charging overnight elsewhere. She also had to skip part of her trip due to lack of range.
The columnist concludes the sacrifices were worth it, given her dedication to environmentalism. The vast, vast majority of people would not choose her experience to be a little greener.
1: https://www.almanacnews.com/blogs/a-new-shade-of-green/2024/...
The columnist concludes the sacrifices were worth it, given her dedication to environmentalism. The vast, vast majority of people would not choose her experience to be a little greener.
1: https://www.almanacnews.com/blogs/a-new-shade-of-green/2024/...
It's all about charger coverage. As a large group we rented 2 Volkswagen ID.4's in Norway over the Christmas holidays (think -4 degrees F so we were getting about half the advertised range) and it was never a limiting factor. Anywhere we went we could top up, from the grocery store down to the cabin that was quite out in the boonies, never had to fight for a charger spot either.
It is not about charger coverage. When I have a 7:00 flight after an all day meeting I don't want to or can't budget the time required to fully charge an EV on my way to the airport. It's all about time.
That's about there not being a charger in the lot that the rental company uses as a matter of course when rentals are returned to them.
> -4 degrees F so we were getting about half the advertised range
Does this mean the electricity you paid for went half as long?
(ev exp is ltd bc my cars are 30y-60y)
Does this mean the electricity you paid for went half as long?
(ev exp is ltd bc my cars are 30y-60y)
At cold temps you lose range a few different ways:
First heat in an EV isn't free, this is usually where it gets you. People get in go "oh man its cold" and crank up the heat and there goes range. When you see one of the "this person ran out of power waiting in line at the Tesla charger in winter time" pictures this is how they did it.
Second battery efficiency goes down.
Finally, the battery usually is constantly doing the regen breaking thing but in cold weather it doesn't to save pack wear until you get the pack warm again
Second battery efficiency goes down.
Finally, the battery usually is constantly doing the regen breaking thing but in cold weather it doesn't to save pack wear until you get the pack warm again
Shouldn't a couple regen braking events be capable of dumping a boatload of heat?
At least last time I checked, Teslas had rather anemic battery heaters. IIRC they’re around 6kW.
6kW is not enough to make a big dent in required mechanical braking, and it’s also not enough to quickly heat the battery pack, especially when operated intermittently.
6kW is not enough to make a big dent in required mechanical braking, and it’s also not enough to quickly heat the battery pack, especially when operated intermittently.
I thought GP was referring to generating heat for HVAC, which is an interesting idea. I assume one challenge would be getting the warmth from the brakes to the cabin.
A gadget to recover heat from a disk brake would certainly be interesting, but it sounds complex, messy and expensive.
A bigger battery/coolant loop heater sounds more straightforward — the mechanism to convert kinetic energy to current is already there.
A bigger battery/coolant loop heater sounds more straightforward — the mechanism to convert kinetic energy to current is already there.
Yeah, from what I've read, Tesla max regen is 60+kw. Does it just lockout regen braking until the battery pack is "receptive"?
It limits max regen power, and the limit is variable. There’s a cute little indicator on the dash.
The problem is that cold batteries can't charge or discharge quickly. From the battery's point of view, regenerative braking is the same as fast charging (just for a very short period of time). When the battery is very cold (or almost full), Teslas regen as much as they can, then use the friction brakes to keep a consistent feel for one pedal driving. The battery does have fluid pumped through it for heating/cooling, but it can take some time before the pack is warm enough to charge/discharge at its rated capacity. The longest I've had a cold battery notice is 20 minutes, and that was after my car sat at 0ºF overnight.
My thought was to use the regen braking electricity for (more) resistive heating when it has nowhere else to go. It's an extra thing that only gets some use (depending on climate), but not a very expensive extra thing and takes some load off your pad/rotor brakes.
The battery is warmed by the heat pump (or if you have an older model, the resistive heating coils). That component can only take so much power. A more powerful heat pump would cost more, take up more space, and weigh more. My guess is that Tesla designed their heat pump based on these tradeoffs.
I think you are missing the most important effect of cold: more air density at terrain level, which creates way more drag on the car.
The density of air at 20ºC (293ºK) is 1.204kg/m^3. At -10ºC (263ºK) its density is 1.341kg/m^3, or 11% denser. For a Model 3 moving at 100kph, about half of its power is used to overcome air drag and half is used to overcome rolling resistance. Air drag is 1/2 * density * velocity^2 * coefficient of drag * area, so an 11% increase in density means an 11% increase in drag, so a ≈5.5% decrease in range. That's significantly less than typical cold weather range loss.
Most of the range loss comes from climate control. In a combustion car, the majority of the energy in the gasoline is turned into heat. In cold weather, you just dump some of this heat into the cabin to keep it warm. An EV's efficiency is a disadvantage in this case, as it needs to use energy from the battery to heat up the cabin.
Most of the range loss comes from climate control. In a combustion car, the majority of the energy in the gasoline is turned into heat. In cold weather, you just dump some of this heat into the cabin to keep it warm. An EV's efficiency is a disadvantage in this case, as it needs to use energy from the battery to heat up the cabin.
Everything sum up.
I don't have the exact numbers there but the HVAC system should draw ~2kW at full throttle. Giving an average of, let say, 160Wh/km (speaking of a recent Tesla M3 for example) at highway speed. Over an hour of full throttle heating you would have consumed in heating an extra ~10% of what you spent to move the car. So OK, maybe air drag increase is not the worst offender here but it's not just the HVAC system.
...
While writing this I searched a bit and according to this [1] when there is really cold temperature and the battery still haven't got warm, it can draw 5-6kW at the beginning. Anyway when driving motors heat up, the heat is used to warm the battery, the battery heats up as well and all that heat is used by the heat pump to warm the inside of the vehicle.
[1] https://insideevs.com/news/452464/tesla-model-y-heat-pump-sy...
I don't have the exact numbers there but the HVAC system should draw ~2kW at full throttle. Giving an average of, let say, 160Wh/km (speaking of a recent Tesla M3 for example) at highway speed. Over an hour of full throttle heating you would have consumed in heating an extra ~10% of what you spent to move the car. So OK, maybe air drag increase is not the worst offender here but it's not just the HVAC system.
...
While writing this I searched a bit and according to this [1] when there is really cold temperature and the battery still haven't got warm, it can draw 5-6kW at the beginning. Anyway when driving motors heat up, the heat is used to warm the battery, the battery heats up as well and all that heat is used by the heat pump to warm the inside of the vehicle.
[1] https://insideevs.com/news/452464/tesla-model-y-heat-pump-sy...
I have a PHEV and when I turn on the heat as I'm pulling out of my garage, the range is cut by 30%. This has nothing to do with drag since I'm backing out at 2 MPH. It's just about the HVAC system, which uses a lot of power. I typically just use the seat warmer, but when my kids are in the backseat I have to run the heat as well.
Yes. You use twice as much electricity to go the same distance.
Gas cars lose efficiency in the cold too, but it’s less drastic. Only stats I can find are 15% loss at 20F (which is a lot warmer than -4F).
Also, charging tends to be much slower in the cold as batteries need to be warm to accept full charge rate. If you’re cruising on the highway it’s usually not too bad, but if you start from an overnight stop and then try to immediately charge the car you could be waiting for the battery to warm up.
Gas cars lose efficiency in the cold too, but it’s less drastic. Only stats I can find are 15% loss at 20F (which is a lot warmer than -4F).
Also, charging tends to be much slower in the cold as batteries need to be warm to accept full charge rate. If you’re cruising on the highway it’s usually not too bad, but if you start from an overnight stop and then try to immediately charge the car you could be waiting for the battery to warm up.
> Does this mean the electricity you paid for went half as long?
No, the battery simply isn't able to hold as much energy because the chemical process that makes it work "slows" down (my basic understanding of electrons, someone feel free to correct me).
No, the battery simply isn't able to hold as much energy because the chemical process that makes it work "slows" down (my basic understanding of electrons, someone feel free to correct me).
My brother lives in Maine and has two electric cars. I have one and travel in Maine a few times a year. It's a particularly bad state for charging. I'm not sure why that is.
I imagine the temperature doesn't help. Compared to CA (where the columnist is from), the average temp is probably 20° colder, which could cut 15% off the range.
This is unlikely to be the central factor, given that Norway, one of the few inhabited places which is colder than Maine, has the highest rate of electric car ownership in the world.
That's in spite of the range issue, and is due to the Norwegian government carrot-and-sticking heavily towards electric. Maine has no such incentives, and is sparsely populated, which doesn't play to the strengths of electric cars.
That's in spite of the range issue, and is due to the Norwegian government carrot-and-sticking heavily towards electric. Maine has no such incentives, and is sparsely populated, which doesn't play to the strengths of electric cars.
Norway has huge financial incentives for buying EVs, including exemption from VAT and registration fees. This has added up to billions of USD in subsidies, [1] and is why there are so many EVs in Norway. I'd be very surprised if their neighbors, who have similar climate but fewer incentives, see the same rate of adoption.
Norway shows that you can have EVs in a place that is very cold if you shovel cash at buyers. It doesn't prove that weather wouldn't be a central factor in a place like Maine.
1: https://www.oecd.org/climate-action/ipac/practices/norway-s-...
Norway shows that you can have EVs in a place that is very cold if you shovel cash at buyers. It doesn't prove that weather wouldn't be a central factor in a place like Maine.
1: https://www.oecd.org/climate-action/ipac/practices/norway-s-...
Also worth noting that in Norway, they will often have cars with engine block heaters (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_heater), with associated plug points in parking spaces/places.
Makes it much easier if there's already infrastructure.
Makes it much easier if there's already infrastructure.
Maine is sparsely populated, but most of its population is concentrated in a narrow strip along the coast. Actually, this is probably true of Norway as well.
Yeah, the cold hurts the range, but not all that much. The central (I was going to say "main") thing is that Maine is a charging desert.
Bar Harbor, the destination of most of the out-of-state Teslas, has almost nowhere to charge. I went to a hotel once which promised to have 4 level-2 Tesla chargers. All of the spots were occupied by ICE trucks. I went in to point out this problem to the clerk. She shrugged her shoulders and said, "they're probably our customers." Apparently the chargers were just there to lure in suckers. "Yes, we have chargers, but good luck using one. They tend to be parked in by ICE pickup trucks. We're helpless to do anything about this." I failed to check to see whether the trucks had Maine plates. They didn't look like typical customers of this hotel.
Around Portland things are a bit better. And new stations are being put it. It's just behind neighboring states.
Bar Harbor, the destination of most of the out-of-state Teslas, has almost nowhere to charge. I went to a hotel once which promised to have 4 level-2 Tesla chargers. All of the spots were occupied by ICE trucks. I went in to point out this problem to the clerk. She shrugged her shoulders and said, "they're probably our customers." Apparently the chargers were just there to lure in suckers. "Yes, we have chargers, but good luck using one. They tend to be parked in by ICE pickup trucks. We're helpless to do anything about this." I failed to check to see whether the trucks had Maine plates. They didn't look like typical customers of this hotel.
Around Portland things are a bit better. And new stations are being put it. It's just behind neighboring states.
Probably some combination of:
- It's a cold state in winter and there's at least the perception that you don't want an EV in places with cold winters. (I see few enough Teslas in the wild in exurban Boston.)
- It's a relatively poor state.
- I imagine pickups and the like are disproportionately represented.
- It's big and sparsely populated as you say.
A friend of mine who lives in Boston but owns a house on a bunch of land in northern Vermont finally got a Tesla when he convinced himself there was sufficient buffer for weekly trips between the two places.
- It's a cold state in winter and there's at least the perception that you don't want an EV in places with cold winters. (I see few enough Teslas in the wild in exurban Boston.)
- It's a relatively poor state.
- I imagine pickups and the like are disproportionately represented.
- It's big and sparsely populated as you say.
A friend of mine who lives in Boston but owns a house on a bunch of land in northern Vermont finally got a Tesla when he convinced himself there was sufficient buffer for weekly trips between the two places.
Articles like that make it all sound so complicated and hard!
TBH, the experience of most Tesla owners is just put the dest in the map and charge when needed on the way.
The one clear problem that is highlighted in that article is that hotel, or more generally destination, charging makes a huge difference. People think it is all about getting there, but it really is the being there that can be tricky.
Rental cars magnify this problem, which is why it was so strange that Hertz expanded the fleet so rapidly. Scaling the same move over 3 years would have had very different results(*).
(*) Maybe other than maintenance costs. There were odd rental effects in that from the stories that I've heard.
TBH, the experience of most Tesla owners is just put the dest in the map and charge when needed on the way.
The one clear problem that is highlighted in that article is that hotel, or more generally destination, charging makes a huge difference. People think it is all about getting there, but it really is the being there that can be tricky.
Rental cars magnify this problem, which is why it was so strange that Hertz expanded the fleet so rapidly. Scaling the same move over 3 years would have had very different results(*).
(*) Maybe other than maintenance costs. There were odd rental effects in that from the stories that I've heard.
> of most Tesla owners is just put the dest in the map and charge when needed
Do you think that's because it's far easier to charge your car at home while you are sleeping? And that renters who lack this convenience or face difficulty achieving it might be put out by the experience during a possibly expensive and rare vacation?
Do you think that's because it's far easier to charge your car at home while you are sleeping? And that renters who lack this convenience or face difficulty achieving it might be put out by the experience during a possibly expensive and rare vacation?
It's because Tesla's navigation automatically adds charging stops to the route. Also you add billing info when you set up your Tesla account (which the car is tied to) so you don't do anything besides plug in. While you're driving you can see on your car's screen how busy nearby chargers are, whether any stalls are out of commission (an extremely rare occurrence), and what the maximum charging rate is.
I've tried 3rd party chargers a few times and gave up on them. They're often broken or extremely slow. They usually require installing some app, and you don't know whether they're occupied or not until you get there. In contrast, Tesla's chargers are a consistently good experience. Without them, I'd simply never use my EV for road trips.
I've tried 3rd party chargers a few times and gave up on them. They're often broken or extremely slow. They usually require installing some app, and you don't know whether they're occupied or not until you get there. In contrast, Tesla's chargers are a consistently good experience. Without them, I'd simply never use my EV for road trips.
The Tesla supercharger team rarely gets enough credit. They do an amazing job behind the scenes to make all of that a reality.
I still use other charging networks from time to time. The best that I can say is that they are usable, but they are often frustrating in various weird ways.
I still use other charging networks from time to time. The best that I can say is that they are usable, but they are often frustrating in various weird ways.
I'm sure it happens. We get EV 'reviews' from time to time in some of the ev forums and reddits. I've noticed a common tendency to get this experience, then extrapolate it to the rest of the experiences as well. It isn't always a representative sample, though I understand why it happens.
But that's not why I mentioned Tesla. I mentioned them because there's so much weird industry caused complexity that they avoid. Need to charge the car you've just rented? Just find a supercharger and plug in. Not ideal necessarily, but at least it isn't hard.
Got a non-Tesla and need to use EVGo or EA? If you're lucky the card reader isn't broken. Then there's a decent chance it times out while communicating, because the order of events isn't intuitive for first timers. Cancelling the session at this point sometimes gets tricky too. Oh, and all of this is assuming the unit itself wasn't broken. If the card reader was broken, now you are downloading an app, tapping in card details, trying to figure out which stall to active, etc. And finally, you find out that the Bolt might require you to hold the cord just right for it to activate. EA used to have a whole video just on this detail. :facepalm
It can be a really terrible experience.
But that's not why I mentioned Tesla. I mentioned them because there's so much weird industry caused complexity that they avoid. Need to charge the car you've just rented? Just find a supercharger and plug in. Not ideal necessarily, but at least it isn't hard.
Got a non-Tesla and need to use EVGo or EA? If you're lucky the card reader isn't broken. Then there's a decent chance it times out while communicating, because the order of events isn't intuitive for first timers. Cancelling the session at this point sometimes gets tricky too. Oh, and all of this is assuming the unit itself wasn't broken. If the card reader was broken, now you are downloading an app, tapping in card details, trying to figure out which stall to active, etc. And finally, you find out that the Bolt might require you to hold the cord just right for it to activate. EA used to have a whole video just on this detail. :facepalm
It can be a really terrible experience.
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one of the primary complaints I've seen is the Tesla apps being inaccurate about charger availability - like 4 out of 5 chargers available here! And you show up and they're actually all taken with a huge line of people waiting.
So weird (and I'm not a Tesla apologist at all) but I have never in 5 years seen this happen - and I've driven across America 4 times in a Model 3.
In fact, mid drive Tesla will auto-reroute you to a supercharger station with more open slots if the one you're going to gets busy while on the drive. The UI is extremely accurate (like I can see open station numbers increment when a car pulls out).
Are you sure you're not hearing complaints about non-Tesla chargers?
In fact, mid drive Tesla will auto-reroute you to a supercharger station with more open slots if the one you're going to gets busy while on the drive. The UI is extremely accurate (like I can see open station numbers increment when a car pulls out).
Are you sure you're not hearing complaints about non-Tesla chargers?
yes this is specifically the Tesla charging stations in LA
> For example, she had to walk in the cold (Maine) from her hotel to her car...
Equivalently, she chose a hotel without chargers, or without enough chargers. How much extra time and money would it have taken to find a hotel with/near chargers?
Which travel search engines/ OTAs/ directories allow you to find hotels with L1/L2 chargers? (Do they list number and ratio of chargers/rooms?) Just like how most of these allow you to search on free parking, breakfast, wifi, disabled access etc., I see this as a feature that will become common then standard.
EDIT: to the down-voter, this is on-topic and substantive comment. Per my other comment here, the onus is on the rental company to actively incentivize behavior modification in first-time-EV-renting customers, help them plan their trip, not just to merrily slam them for fees. Assuming Hertz want loyalty and repeat business (if not, then this is a wider issue with them, not with EVs).
Equivalently, she chose a hotel without chargers, or without enough chargers. How much extra time and money would it have taken to find a hotel with/near chargers?
Which travel search engines/ OTAs/ directories allow you to find hotels with L1/L2 chargers? (Do they list number and ratio of chargers/rooms?) Just like how most of these allow you to search on free parking, breakfast, wifi, disabled access etc., I see this as a feature that will become common then standard.
EDIT: to the down-voter, this is on-topic and substantive comment. Per my other comment here, the onus is on the rental company to actively incentivize behavior modification in first-time-EV-renting customers, help them plan their trip, not just to merrily slam them for fees. Assuming Hertz want loyalty and repeat business (if not, then this is a wider issue with them, not with EVs).
I believe charging anxiety was. The base case for car rentals is generally "time bound, busy itinerary" of some sort.... think business trips, holidays, etc.
Few want to spend that precious time becoming familiar with that cities charging network if charging is new to them.
I recently rented a Mach-E over Christmas in a large Metro, and stayed in a populous suburb. Charging & the states of chargers was no fun and really added a cognitive load.
However, I did realize I enjoyed EV's for some point in the future - somewhat curing range anxiety of my normal life routine.
Few want to spend that precious time becoming familiar with that cities charging network if charging is new to them.
I recently rented a Mach-E over Christmas in a large Metro, and stayed in a populous suburb. Charging & the states of chargers was no fun and really added a cognitive load.
However, I did realize I enjoyed EV's for some point in the future - somewhat curing range anxiety of my normal life routine.
How many hotels have sufficient charging capacity to charge EVs while people sleep?
A lot of hotels around here have 110v outlets in their parking lots for fishermen to charge their bass boats but I haven't heard that a similar ethic applies to EVs. :-)
A lot of hotels around here have 110v outlets in their parking lots for fishermen to charge their bass boats but I haven't heard that a similar ethic applies to EVs. :-)
Here's something purely anecdotal: recently stayed in a motel in very rural Arkansas. In the morning, I noticed a Chevy Bolt (or similar) plugged in with an extension cord. Asked the clerk about it. She said it was a relatively rare situation but they didn't have a problem with someone using their outside outlet.
I suppose I can't extrapolate this situation to everyone, but I have a feeling if you provide your own cord, most motels won't have a problem with you charging. Especially since it'll be uncommon. If everyone had EVs, then they might start putting a fee on it.
I suppose I can't extrapolate this situation to everyone, but I have a feeling if you provide your own cord, most motels won't have a problem with you charging. Especially since it'll be uncommon. If everyone had EVs, then they might start putting a fee on it.
Bass fishing is a major part of tourism in NE Alabama, so most hotels have many 110v outlets near the parking lots to support the boats' trolling motor batteries, and I don't believe they charge (ahem) for access. But introducing a lot of new infrastructure would cost.
I was surprised during a ride in a friends' Tesla. We needed a few more miles. They let their phone guide them to a convenient pile of superchargers. Plugged in. We checked messages and chatted for a few minutes. Then continued. Remarkably painless.
This future is probably not yet evenly distributed around the world. Sure. But fast charging might eventually come to something. Eventually.
This future is probably not yet evenly distributed around the world. Sure. But fast charging might eventually come to something. Eventually.
I have never seen a hotel with more than two EV chargers and that was a very high end spot near Seattle. Most hotels, if they have an EV charger at all, will only have one. If there are 100 guests you'd better hope they are all petrol-heads.
TBH, I've experienced it where it can go either way. I've rented gas cars and ended up at a hotel with nice L2 stations. The EV would have been easier! :)
But I've also rented EVs in metros with decent fast charging, but none at the hotel. It was fun, but charging was a notable downside.
But I've also rented EVs in metros with decent fast charging, but none at the hotel. It was fun, but charging was a notable downside.
My partner just travelled to middle of nowhere Illinois. At the airport car rental they were trying to offer EVs instead of an ICE. That was not in any way a viable option since the destination town not only wouldn't have charging stations there's no guarantee the car could be charged anywhere.
If you buy an EV you hopefully do so knowing full well the vehicle's constraints. You've figured out those constraints aren't a deal breaker for your known use cases. When being offered as a rental most people have no idea what the constraints of the vehicle are nor can they make informed decisions about them. So having anxiety about any of those, including charging, makes complete sense. A rental car should be as flexible as possible, not have a care and feeding schedule like you're buying a Mogwai.
If you buy an EV you hopefully do so knowing full well the vehicle's constraints. You've figured out those constraints aren't a deal breaker for your known use cases. When being offered as a rental most people have no idea what the constraints of the vehicle are nor can they make informed decisions about them. So having anxiety about any of those, including charging, makes complete sense. A rental car should be as flexible as possible, not have a care and feeding schedule like you're buying a Mogwai.
We had someone plug their rental EV into a 15 amp outside circuit on our house on a friday night. We thought it said that it would be charged by 10 am the next day so we just drove them to their rental. Next morning when they showed up at 11 am we discovered that the charger hadn't said 10 am Saturday. No, it said 10 am Monday.
Right.
The key takeaway for me, they being wall street people - customer empathy was missing.
101 of salesmanship - understanding of customers needs, desires and then selling solutions for those. Here their customers were out of town weary travelers wanting to have a hassle free quick ride to a hotel or a meeting; have not used EVs before (perhaps never intend to), now have to focus on a new problem - how to learn a new skill of handling EV, how to plan for charging during their multi day trips.. etc.
The key takeaway for me, they being wall street people - customer empathy was missing.
101 of salesmanship - understanding of customers needs, desires and then selling solutions for those. Here their customers were out of town weary travelers wanting to have a hassle free quick ride to a hotel or a meeting; have not used EVs before (perhaps never intend to), now have to focus on a new problem - how to learn a new skill of handling EV, how to plan for charging during their multi day trips.. etc.
Stealing a recent comment from reddit on someone's Hertz EV experience. It's a Solterra (Subaru's first EV in collaboration with Toyota) which made it even worse than the Teslas, but I think a good illustration of this idea that you can just roll out EVs to rental customers and act like it's the same as a gas car:
> Hertz gave me a Subaru Solterra for a one way trip from Temecula to Vegas because it was their last car. Couldn't tell me how to start it or anything because they just got it the day before... and they didn't bother plugging it in so it had 20 miles of range. Couldn't tell me where to charge it so I wasted much of it driving around the mall looking for the charger.
> Four hours later I had enough charge to get to Barstow. Or so I thought. Had to charge in Victorville. Then get a hotel room because it was midnight. Put it on a fast charger in the morning and a full charge should have gotten me all the way back. Hit Baker and I knew it wouldn't.
> My five hour drive ended up taking 25 hours.
> Fuck Hertz.
https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/1bi99tk/hertz_ceo_out...
> Hertz gave me a Subaru Solterra for a one way trip from Temecula to Vegas because it was their last car. Couldn't tell me how to start it or anything because they just got it the day before... and they didn't bother plugging it in so it had 20 miles of range. Couldn't tell me where to charge it so I wasted much of it driving around the mall looking for the charger.
> Four hours later I had enough charge to get to Barstow. Or so I thought. Had to charge in Victorville. Then get a hotel room because it was midnight. Put it on a fast charger in the morning and a full charge should have gotten me all the way back. Hit Baker and I knew it wouldn't.
> My five hour drive ended up taking 25 hours.
> Fuck Hertz.
https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/1bi99tk/hertz_ceo_out...
My god, not having enough on site fast chargers for both charging the fleet and reassuring renters that if nothing else they can come back to the airport and top up is really stupid
>> My god, not having enough on site fast chargers for both charging the fleet and reassuring renters
Take a look at a major airport. They could average a hundred rental cars arriving, with peaks into the hundreds. Even assuming every can arrives at a half-charge, the power requirements would be immense. At 50kwH per car, charging up 100 cars every hour would require, at an absolute minimum, a 5000kw/5mW connection.
Take a look at a major airport. They could average a hundred rental cars arriving, with peaks into the hundreds. Even assuming every can arrives at a half-charge, the power requirements would be immense. At 50kwH per car, charging up 100 cars every hour would require, at an absolute minimum, a 5000kw/5mW connection.
This is a problem for a car rental company that wants to provide electric cars to solve, sure.
The rental co really needs to provide reasonable charged cars, and so long as charging infrastructure is dicey (especially with hotels in the mix) they could provide peace of mind to their customers by providing a known charging spot.
Put it wherever, I'm not Hertz, the airport is not Hertz's customer, but I would have a pretty strong bet that Hertz's customers would expect this sort of thing.
The rental co really needs to provide reasonable charged cars, and so long as charging infrastructure is dicey (especially with hotels in the mix) they could provide peace of mind to their customers by providing a known charging spot.
Put it wherever, I'm not Hertz, the airport is not Hertz's customer, but I would have a pretty strong bet that Hertz's customers would expect this sort of thing.
Airports are massive pre-planned industrial facilities with utility connections to match. Getting chargers there should be easy mode compared to most businesses.
> pre-planned
The power requirements were not drawn up with the car rental agency in mind. Maybe you can get the airport to cooperate and ask the utility to expand capacity - how many years of planning do you think that takes?
The power requirements were not drawn up with the car rental agency in mind. Maybe you can get the airport to cooperate and ask the utility to expand capacity - how many years of planning do you think that takes?
Sounds like something a car rental agency that wants to have a bunch of electric rentals should probably think through before yeeting a fleet into existence....
Yes, definitely a project, especially with the shortages of transformers lately. But even if it delayed their (attempted) EV shift, it’s something Hertz needed to have done before buying a bunch of EVs. Handing out discharged EVs to customers who haven’t driven an EV before was a totally braindead move.
They have the added challenge of people dropping off cars at a different place from where they started, so they can’t necessarily say “we’re going to start with EVs at our new facilities where we can design that capacity from the start.” They needed fast charging everywhere for this to go smoothly.
They have the added challenge of people dropping off cars at a different place from where they started, so they can’t necessarily say “we’re going to start with EVs at our new facilities where we can design that capacity from the start.” They needed fast charging everywhere for this to go smoothly.
They also don’t offer automotive refueling services at the airport. This is the same reason they charge a premium to fill the tank. The constraints are the same for ICE and EV in this case.
What's your source for this? I'm just realizing I might be way off-base, but I thought airport car rental places all had their own fueling stations, and just overcharged you because they can and there's nothing you can do about it, and I'd thought of it as one of those "everybody knows" kinds of things. So now I'm very surprised to hear otherwise.
I don’t have a source. It just seems obvious to me they wouldn’t bother with the cost of maintaining that infrastructure.
Do you have any reason to believe car rental companies maintain onsite fuel stations? Have you ever seen one? Why don’t they let customers use it?
There are already gas stations near airports. If a car needs gas they pay someone to drive it there and fill it up. That’s the source of your inflated prices.
Do you have any reason to believe car rental companies maintain onsite fuel stations? Have you ever seen one? Why don’t they let customers use it?
There are already gas stations near airports. If a car needs gas they pay someone to drive it there and fill it up. That’s the source of your inflated prices.
I haven't at an airport, but I have at freestanding ones. Having fuel delivered to a tank with a pump isn't really that involved as infrastructure goes. You're just buying the fuel wholesale instead of retail. You don't need the same size underground tank as a gas station, but you can hold more than enough to fill up whatever you need to from a fleet of cars. As for why they don't let customers use it? This is obvious. They'd rather overcharge you. And they know nobody's going to do something dumb at the pump if it's only their own team doing it.
Plus, often when I rent a car, it isn't full. I'm sure they still charge the person "to fill the tank," but they don't actually fill it, so the total they'd have to store on-site is even less than if they were actually filling the cars.
I also assumed they had somewhere to store siphoned fuel, because every car I've ever driven has at least a gallon before the needle moves off of "F," but rental cars drop below F immediately. I've always assumed they were siphoning out a gallon or more any time someone did return the car all the way full.
Plus, often when I rent a car, it isn't full. I'm sure they still charge the person "to fill the tank," but they don't actually fill it, so the total they'd have to store on-site is even less than if they were actually filling the cars.
I also assumed they had somewhere to store siphoned fuel, because every car I've ever driven has at least a gallon before the needle moves off of "F," but rental cars drop below F immediately. I've always assumed they were siphoning out a gallon or more any time someone did return the car all the way full.
Yes, but many are also very old and don't necessarily have large power lines leading to the car park as it's never been necessary in the past. Newark was mentioned as a case in point, where power is simply not available at the scale they'd need it. Of course, Hertz should have thought of that...
That's a great reason not to have electric rental cars, but not a great reason to not charge rental cars.
50kwH is a huge charger. You wouldn't need many of such feeds even with hundreds of cars.
How long do cars sit in the lot? Do you need to send cars out at 100% full? Is it good enough to make sure the cars leave the lot with 50-80% full?
They're returned, inspected, cleaned, put in the "outgoing" queue. I suspect having DCFC for just the cleaning area and then 16 or 20 or 24a /240v posts for L2 charging the cars as they sit waiting to be rented would more than suffice.
Other big issues would be around having to have dedicated parking for EVs and also having charging posts sticking out of the ground all over.
How long do cars sit in the lot? Do you need to send cars out at 100% full? Is it good enough to make sure the cars leave the lot with 50-80% full?
They're returned, inspected, cleaned, put in the "outgoing" queue. I suspect having DCFC for just the cleaning area and then 16 or 20 or 24a /240v posts for L2 charging the cars as they sit waiting to be rented would more than suffice.
Other big issues would be around having to have dedicated parking for EVs and also having charging posts sticking out of the ground all over.
> 50kwH is a huge charger.
50kWh is not the charger, half the battery capacity for the cars (as decided by GP).
And 50kW would not be a huge charger, or even a large one, it's the bottom end of DC charging.
> I suspect having DCFC for just the cleaning area and then 16 or 20 or 24a /240v posts for L2 charging the cars as they sit waiting to be rented would more than suffice.
Aside from not being very efficient, 24@240 is not really a thing that's used. 32@240 is relatively standard but it's 7.2kW and generally considered a residential AC charger, acceptable when 3-phase is not available (or too expensive). It needs 7 hours to half-charge a 100kWh battery.
50kWh is not the charger, half the battery capacity for the cars (as decided by GP).
And 50kW would not be a huge charger, or even a large one, it's the bottom end of DC charging.
> I suspect having DCFC for just the cleaning area and then 16 or 20 or 24a /240v posts for L2 charging the cars as they sit waiting to be rented would more than suffice.
Aside from not being very efficient, 24@240 is not really a thing that's used. 32@240 is relatively standard but it's 7.2kW and generally considered a residential AC charger, acceptable when 3-phase is not available (or too expensive). It needs 7 hours to half-charge a 100kWh battery.
I'd suggest that 50kw/h is way too small and way too large.
A car rental setup would benefit from having a couple big DCFC setups where cars are inspected / cleaned.
EVs charge fast if the battery is empty (and warm) -- so the car comes in, is inspected and cleaned and put on a fast charger, and in 20 minutes will get to ~50% charge (regardless of battery size).
As far as "not efficient" or "nobody uses" well, 240 (or 208 if you're in a commercial setup with 2 legs of a 3 phase) is "normal" and a 16a / 20a / 24a AC charger will put reasonable charge on the car while it's just sitting there waiting to be rented again. EV's don't need to be fully charged to be useful so you don't need to put the battery back to 100% before sending it out again.
"your car is at 60% charge and has 180 miles of range right now; your car's nav will tell you where to charge if you need more range to get to where you're going. We'll bill for the power if you bring it back to us at less that 60% full. Have a nice day!"
I'm not sure what the turnover is for a rental lot -- I suspect "it depends" but I suspect it's not unusual to have cars on the lot for 6-12 hours before they're sent out again.
IMO As long as the car has 60% or better charge (or, 150-180 miles of range) it's "good to go". At least for most "airport rental in a major metro area" situation.
As far as charging efficiency -- anything charging at 240/208v is "good enough" -- the differences between 16a or 20a or 24a or whatever are minor relative to the bump from 120v to 240v.
A car rental setup would benefit from having a couple big DCFC setups where cars are inspected / cleaned.
EVs charge fast if the battery is empty (and warm) -- so the car comes in, is inspected and cleaned and put on a fast charger, and in 20 minutes will get to ~50% charge (regardless of battery size).
As far as "not efficient" or "nobody uses" well, 240 (or 208 if you're in a commercial setup with 2 legs of a 3 phase) is "normal" and a 16a / 20a / 24a AC charger will put reasonable charge on the car while it's just sitting there waiting to be rented again. EV's don't need to be fully charged to be useful so you don't need to put the battery back to 100% before sending it out again.
"your car is at 60% charge and has 180 miles of range right now; your car's nav will tell you where to charge if you need more range to get to where you're going. We'll bill for the power if you bring it back to us at less that 60% full. Have a nice day!"
I'm not sure what the turnover is for a rental lot -- I suspect "it depends" but I suspect it's not unusual to have cars on the lot for 6-12 hours before they're sent out again.
IMO As long as the car has 60% or better charge (or, 150-180 miles of range) it's "good to go". At least for most "airport rental in a major metro area" situation.
As far as charging efficiency -- anything charging at 240/208v is "good enough" -- the differences between 16a or 20a or 24a or whatever are minor relative to the bump from 120v to 240v.
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Furthermore, at a rental car center, you're not just swinging in and swinging back out. It could change of course but they're setup that once you drive in, you're returning the car. (Re: comments about rental car center being the charger of last resort.)
(I had a friend joining me on a trip a number of years back. We wanted to add them to the contract once they arrived. I had to patiently explain that we could do it with a company that also had an off-airport location but we couldn't drop by the car rental center at the airport. I've had other experiences with how car rental companies really don't have good mechanisms to change things once you've signed and initialed the contract.)
(I had a friend joining me on a trip a number of years back. We wanted to add them to the contract once they arrived. I had to patiently explain that we could do it with a company that also had an off-airport location but we couldn't drop by the car rental center at the airport. I've had other experiences with how car rental companies really don't have good mechanisms to change things once you've signed and initialed the contract.)
Still scratching my head at why they couldn't make EV batteries hot-swappable, at least with a technician and specialized equipment assumed. (You'd need to changing the finance model a bit, of course, so that the batter replacement service were sold separately from the car -- but this would be easiest for the case of a car rental fleet.)
It was tried and failed--admittedly a long time ago. However, today, I want to have a pretty good idea of the battery health of the battery in my car and avoid it randomly changing when I "fill up." Also most recharge locations are 24-hour with no one on staff so you'd drastically cut when and how an automated replacement could happen.
Yes, a user-swappable would be even better, but even limiting it to banker's hours allows you a five minute complete fill-up, which is still 100x than what it actually takes to fully charge via outlet, or even the 15 minutes you would take if you're lucky enough to find an available supercharger, which still only gives you 200 miles.
Not necessarily unheard of though. Tesla is planning a 52 stall site at O'Hare. That will probably be ~6MW at peak.
You almost can; just put in the same cost of 20 miles' worth of petrol in electricity and the thing will go for ages.
I thought I'd run the numbers on this for a Solterra in my area. Assume 35 MPG for reference since that's my car's EPA highway mileage, so 20 miles of gas is 0.571 gallons. At $2.85/gallon that costs $1.63.
EA's charging here is priced at $0.44 per minute, so with that budget you can charge for 3.70 minutes.
Assume it spends that whole time at 80 kW. This is probably optimistic, it will take time to ramp up to that. But we'll forget about that, and assume the car starts from near empty because the Solterra's charging curve is trash and will begin throttling the speed down when it's about 35% charged.
3.7 minutes at 80 kW gives us 4.93 kW of charge. EPA rates the vehicle at 3.23 miles/kW, so for the equivalent price of 20 miles of gas we've added... drumroll
15.9 miles of charge.
With other vehicles or in an area with different gas/charging pricing, your mileage my vary. And if you look at a straight ICE competitor of the same size as the Solterra as the MPG reference it will be worse than 35 MPG (requiring more gas and giving you a higher charging budget), so basing this on my smaller car did limit that. But regardless, fuel price isn't necessarily a huge advantage for a rental EV.
If I were talking price for L2 charging at home in my garage then I'm sure the EV would be way cheaper, but that's now how anyone will be using a rental.
EA's charging here is priced at $0.44 per minute, so with that budget you can charge for 3.70 minutes.
Assume it spends that whole time at 80 kW. This is probably optimistic, it will take time to ramp up to that. But we'll forget about that, and assume the car starts from near empty because the Solterra's charging curve is trash and will begin throttling the speed down when it's about 35% charged.
3.7 minutes at 80 kW gives us 4.93 kW of charge. EPA rates the vehicle at 3.23 miles/kW, so for the equivalent price of 20 miles of gas we've added... drumroll
15.9 miles of charge.
With other vehicles or in an area with different gas/charging pricing, your mileage my vary. And if you look at a straight ICE competitor of the same size as the Solterra as the MPG reference it will be worse than 35 MPG (requiring more gas and giving you a higher charging budget), so basing this on my smaller car did limit that. But regardless, fuel price isn't necessarily a huge advantage for a rental EV.
If I were talking price for L2 charging at home in my garage then I'm sure the EV would be way cheaper, but that's now how anyone will be using a rental.
When I looked into this, renting an electric car from Hertz in the UK, the only chargers I would have had access to were public ones that wanted something like 85p/KWh. I would have spent an absolute fortune compared to petrol for the trip that I took.
Sorry - to be clear I meant if Hertz owned their own chargers and pumped in the same amount of electricity as they would've put in petrol. Not a 3rd party charging rate. Domestic rates today on moneysupermarket.com are 24p/kWh, and I imagine Hertz could get it cheaper.
I’m a big proponent of EVs but nothing about the current state of chargers can be described as “just put in money”. I have never had an EV charger work the first time.
I drive an EV and I’m still a bit unconvinced about renting one.
If my total expected mileage is practical without charging and I expect the car to start adequately charged, fine. It’s like a free tank of gas.
If not, I can’t charge at home. Charging at a hotel is a PITA. Charging first thing in the morning in cold weather without heated parking is slooooow even at a Supercharger.
And I really don’t want to deal with the utter mess of charger networks and their ridiculous membership cards.
And the usual rental model of strongly encouraging customers to return the car with a full tank of gas doesn’t really make sense for EVs.
If my total expected mileage is practical without charging and I expect the car to start adequately charged, fine. It’s like a free tank of gas.
If not, I can’t charge at home. Charging at a hotel is a PITA. Charging first thing in the morning in cold weather without heated parking is slooooow even at a Supercharger.
And I really don’t want to deal with the utter mess of charger networks and their ridiculous membership cards.
And the usual rental model of strongly encouraging customers to return the car with a full tank of gas doesn’t really make sense for EVs.
My friend's friend got an electric vehicle they didn't ask for an it made their entire visit a giant pain because they brought negative energy everywhere with them.
I had been planning to get an electric but now I'm looking at PHEVs. And I still need to get the wiring for my house fixed. There's an outlet but it was meant for some early gen electric vehicle and literally nothing uses that plug anymore (and now the wiring is probably not adequate gauge)
I had been planning to get an electric but now I'm looking at PHEVs. And I still need to get the wiring for my house fixed. There's an outlet but it was meant for some early gen electric vehicle and literally nothing uses that plug anymore (and now the wiring is probably not adequate gauge)
Outlets are standardized and not specific to EVs. If you mean the charge plug, that's different.
Assuming you're in the US/Canada or other country with 100-120v service, a standard wall socket is sufficient for many full EV users and plenty enough for a PHEV which has a much smaller battery. Think about how much time your car spends sitting in your driveway/garage...and if you don't get a full charge, so what? The engine kicks in.
The wiring gauge is good for a certain current. That affects what sort of plug is installed in the wall, as they're keyed according to current limits. The EVSE can be programmed to not exceed the appropriate current, which is 80% of the breaker's rating.
If it was wired for an EV, it's almost certainly not 100-120v but 208 or higher, in which case even if it's a 15A circuit, that's definitely enough for a PHEV and sufficient for charging all but the largest EVs practically overnight.
A 208v, 15A circuit is good for 2.5kW. If you get home at 7PM and go to work at 7AM, you'll be able to charge 25kWhr each night, roughly. Average EV efficiency is about .35kWh/mile, so that's sufficient for 70 miles of driving.
Assuming you're in the US/Canada or other country with 100-120v service, a standard wall socket is sufficient for many full EV users and plenty enough for a PHEV which has a much smaller battery. Think about how much time your car spends sitting in your driveway/garage...and if you don't get a full charge, so what? The engine kicks in.
The wiring gauge is good for a certain current. That affects what sort of plug is installed in the wall, as they're keyed according to current limits. The EVSE can be programmed to not exceed the appropriate current, which is 80% of the breaker's rating.
If it was wired for an EV, it's almost certainly not 100-120v but 208 or higher, in which case even if it's a 15A circuit, that's definitely enough for a PHEV and sufficient for charging all but the largest EVs practically overnight.
A 208v, 15A circuit is good for 2.5kW. If you get home at 7PM and go to work at 7AM, you'll be able to charge 25kWhr each night, roughly. Average EV efficiency is about .35kWh/mile, so that's sufficient for 70 miles of driving.
You'll probably have 240V in North America in a residential detached/duplex/row home. It's low/high-rise apartment buildings/condominiums where you'll see 208V.
We use 110 to charge our PHEV (which admittedly has a very small battery). I would like to get a PHEV for our next vehicle, but the price premium makes it very unattractive for us. Some vehicles are $12k more for PHEV, and given how little we drive it would never be worth it. It's nice not tanking up often, but the extra cost (and extra car insurance) isn't worth it for us.
I'm not saying it was no factor whatsoever but if you listen to the Hertz investor call they describe the reason for backtracking and they certainly don't cite charging as the primary reason.
In theory if the people used the in-car travel planning features it shouldn't have been a problem, but if Hertz wasn't telling them about that then you could have a very stressful experience.
The "in-car" planning features are a going to get people stranded on the side of the road, including in a Tesla.
I had to make a trip from Tucson, AZ to Bisbee, a super common route you would make as it's a popular tourist destination. Bisbee is about 80 miles from the supercharger down Interstate 10. By default, the cars are configured to stop charging when they get to 80% or something like that. Your average consumer is not going to have a clue because that's not how gas pumps work.
There was 0 public charging infrastructure after the Supercharger, not so much as a public J1772 charge point (It might look like it using an app, but they are broken or nonfunctional). The Model 3 gets under 200 miles of range going the pace of traffic, which is 80-85 MPH. Then they take a wrong turn or drive around at the destination and burn up the last 30-40 miles.
The poor sucker that rented the Tesla was told it would get "270 miles of range". When he left the charger it said he had over 200 miles to go. But reality sinks in, and at some point in the journey, if they get even slightly distracted, they will find themselves 50 miles from the charger with 30 miles left.
I had to make a trip from Tucson, AZ to Bisbee, a super common route you would make as it's a popular tourist destination. Bisbee is about 80 miles from the supercharger down Interstate 10. By default, the cars are configured to stop charging when they get to 80% or something like that. Your average consumer is not going to have a clue because that's not how gas pumps work.
There was 0 public charging infrastructure after the Supercharger, not so much as a public J1772 charge point (It might look like it using an app, but they are broken or nonfunctional). The Model 3 gets under 200 miles of range going the pace of traffic, which is 80-85 MPH. Then they take a wrong turn or drive around at the destination and burn up the last 30-40 miles.
The poor sucker that rented the Tesla was told it would get "270 miles of range". When he left the charger it said he had over 200 miles to go. But reality sinks in, and at some point in the journey, if they get even slightly distracted, they will find themselves 50 miles from the charger with 30 miles left.
> The poor sucker that rented the Tesla was told it would get "270 miles of range". When he left the charger it said he had over 200 miles to go. But reality sinks in, and at some point in the journey, if they get even slightly distracted, they will find themselves 50 miles from the charger with 30 miles left.
And the reason gasoline took off as a fuel was because it was frequently used as a degreaser before we decided to burn it instead, so you could buy it in tins from the blacksmith in whatever town you found yourself stranded in. There's nothing analogous to that for EVs.
And the reason gasoline took off as a fuel was because it was frequently used as a degreaser before we decided to burn it instead, so you could buy it in tins from the blacksmith in whatever town you found yourself stranded in. There's nothing analogous to that for EVs.
I like the historical context, but there are extremely analogous comparisons for EVs, as electricity is widely available.
The thing is -- electricity is widely available to people who have purchased an electrical service and have installed the requisite breaker panel. So while you might be very close to places where there are electricity, you can't just roll up and plug in to someone's house.
You could certainly offer to pay someone for electricity from their home or business, but then you're parked in their driveway for a period of time waiting. And the social aspects of this make it a lot more challenging than simply walking up to the local blacksmith and buying a gallon or two of solvent off the shelf so you can get to the next town.
You're at that point relying on the kindness of strangers.
You could certainly offer to pay someone for electricity from their home or business, but then you're parked in their driveway for a period of time waiting. And the social aspects of this make it a lot more challenging than simply walking up to the local blacksmith and buying a gallon or two of solvent off the shelf so you can get to the next town.
You're at that point relying on the kindness of strangers.
The local blacksmith is still relying on the kindness of strangers thing. They have to make the business decision of what they need to run their business versus what margin of extra they have on hand. That's a transaction with a lot of complexity and I can't imagine the conversations were all as pleasant as you seem to expect.
On the other hand, I've had the "I noticed an external outlet near my parking spot, do you mind if I plug my car into it while I shop/stay at this hotel/eat at this restaurant?" conversation plenty of times and there's no "challenge" to it nor "transaction". The most common answer I've got has been "I don't see why not" because it's not really a transaction for most businesses, whatever extra they spend on electricity they easily make back in making a new customer or keeping an existing customer happy. In a few times I got back "there's a Level 2 charger hidden at the Library across the street and the fees support our local library" or "we have a deal with this parking garage a block away that has chargers and we can validate your parking for you when you get back", which just goes to show how normalized it already can often be as just another "parking consideration" of "where to park" when you ask businesses about it. Most businesses are used to answering "is there a good place to park?" questions. Parking is normal operations for a business, not "relying on the kindness of strangers". Electricity is "just" an amenity of parking, already in some businesses' minds. (Not enough businesses yet, sure, but more than you might think.)
To be fair, I've never been in a "life or death" situation where a "No" would have been some terrible catastrophe, but I've also never known anyone in my lifetime that had to buy gasoline from a small town Blacksmith or Pharmacist either.
On the other hand, I've had the "I noticed an external outlet near my parking spot, do you mind if I plug my car into it while I shop/stay at this hotel/eat at this restaurant?" conversation plenty of times and there's no "challenge" to it nor "transaction". The most common answer I've got has been "I don't see why not" because it's not really a transaction for most businesses, whatever extra they spend on electricity they easily make back in making a new customer or keeping an existing customer happy. In a few times I got back "there's a Level 2 charger hidden at the Library across the street and the fees support our local library" or "we have a deal with this parking garage a block away that has chargers and we can validate your parking for you when you get back", which just goes to show how normalized it already can often be as just another "parking consideration" of "where to park" when you ask businesses about it. Most businesses are used to answering "is there a good place to park?" questions. Parking is normal operations for a business, not "relying on the kindness of strangers". Electricity is "just" an amenity of parking, already in some businesses' minds. (Not enough businesses yet, sure, but more than you might think.)
To be fair, I've never been in a "life or death" situation where a "No" would have been some terrible catastrophe, but I've also never known anyone in my lifetime that had to buy gasoline from a small town Blacksmith or Pharmacist either.
Also we’ve seen recently in the US you are liable to get killed for randomly going up to someone’s house.
Any regular wall outlet can charge an EV.
That's true, but now you need to spend the night.
A model 3 realistically gets 4~4.5 mi / kWh, US 16A@120V is rated for 1500W continuous, so that's about 6.5 miles per hour of charging. 20A@120V is close to 2000W continuous, so that's about 9 miles per hour.
A model 3 realistically gets 4~4.5 mi / kWh, US 16A@120V is rated for 1500W continuous, so that's about 6.5 miles per hour of charging. 20A@120V is close to 2000W continuous, so that's about 9 miles per hour.
If the comparison is to buying an emergency gallon from a "town blacksmith", then let's get those numbers too: a (Ford) Model T was said to get 13 to 21 miles per gallon. So if you managed to buy a full gallon from your hypothetical blacksmith in history, you'd need two to three hours on a boring wall plug to get the equivalent charge in your Model 3. That's quite a bit more time than you might want to spend in a small town, but that's "a lazy afternoon" amount of time (or a good four course meal with all the fixins depending on whereabouts in the country you find this stop and the hospitality of local restaurants) and still not "spend the night" amount of time.
I know this thread is entirely about comparing apples and oranges, but the historical examples weren't getting a full tank from a small local Blacksmith back then and so it doesn't make sense to worry about getting a full charge in this situation either.
I know this thread is entirely about comparing apples and oranges, but the historical examples weren't getting a full tank from a small local Blacksmith back then and so it doesn't make sense to worry about getting a full charge in this situation either.
Were blacksmiths open 24 hours?
Are you suggesting people steal electricity from private homes or businesses?
Are you suggesting blacksmiths weren’t compensated for providing solvent?
Are you suggesting that there exists a large nationwide network of chargers that is as convenient and as easily accessible as the electricity grid?
Yes they are called wall outlets. There’s even more of them now than there ever were blacksmiths.
[deleted]
> In theory if the people used the in-car travel planning features it shouldn't have been a problem,
This is just a different way of saying "If people put in more work this wouldn't be a problem", but you're ignoring the context - people who rent cars are often in a hurry, need transport now and need to get someone now. This all indicates that they are busy, and your suggestion is that they should work harder to get the same result?
This is just a different way of saying "If people put in more work this wouldn't be a problem", but you're ignoring the context - people who rent cars are often in a hurry, need transport now and need to get someone now. This all indicates that they are busy, and your suggestion is that they should work harder to get the same result?
The systems aren't hard to use, quite the opposite, but they can't help if you don't use them. I think if Hertz spent even 5 minutes explaining to people how the in-car navigation worked and emphasizing how important it is this experiment have been a success. The car will work out the charging stops for you, tell you how long you need to be there (hint: not long), and do all of the stressful planning steps automatically.
It's not just Tesla either. All major EVs come with route planning. If you have range anxiety you're using it wrong. This isn't even the driver's fault, how can they know about these features if nobody tells them? I don't even fully blame Hertz for this. Tesla should be marketing the route planning nationwide. Show people how life with EVs actually is instead of leaving them in the dark and letting them think that owning an EV means a roll of the dice every time you get behind the wheel where you might not find a friendly plug in time and be stranded on the side with no way to jerrycan more miles.
It's not just Tesla either. All major EVs come with route planning. If you have range anxiety you're using it wrong. This isn't even the driver's fault, how can they know about these features if nobody tells them? I don't even fully blame Hertz for this. Tesla should be marketing the route planning nationwide. Show people how life with EVs actually is instead of leaving them in the dark and letting them think that owning an EV means a roll of the dice every time you get behind the wheel where you might not find a friendly plug in time and be stranded on the side with no way to jerrycan more miles.
> The systems aren't hard to use, quite the opposite, but they can't help if you don't use them.
I'm not claiming that the systems are hard to use, I'm saying that it's an additional friction over ICE cars, in which you don't need to put in extra work to learn a piece of software, you don't need to wait for the rental assistant to explain how it works and you don't need to plan refuelling stops to coincide with rest times.
As a renter, I give them my booking number, my drivers license and my credit card, then jump in and head straight to my destination. All the other stuff that the Tesla's required may be easy, but we go from 2 steps (pay and drive) to 5 or more steps.
TBH, if Hertz had wanted this to be a success, the biggest thing they could have done was made sure that the cars were always fully charged before the customer drove off.
Route-planning is kinda irrelevant when you're doubling the friction required to rent a car.
I'm not claiming that the systems are hard to use, I'm saying that it's an additional friction over ICE cars, in which you don't need to put in extra work to learn a piece of software, you don't need to wait for the rental assistant to explain how it works and you don't need to plan refuelling stops to coincide with rest times.
As a renter, I give them my booking number, my drivers license and my credit card, then jump in and head straight to my destination. All the other stuff that the Tesla's required may be easy, but we go from 2 steps (pay and drive) to 5 or more steps.
TBH, if Hertz had wanted this to be a success, the biggest thing they could have done was made sure that the cars were always fully charged before the customer drove off.
Route-planning is kinda irrelevant when you're doubling the friction required to rent a car.
>If you have range anxiety you're using it wrong.
Sorry but that is a hyper-obnoxious comment. I've never yet driven an EV, and range anxiety is undoubtedly something I will experience when I eventually get to. I don't want that in the context of being away from home on work or holiday.
Sorry but that is a hyper-obnoxious comment. I've never yet driven an EV, and range anxiety is undoubtedly something I will experience when I eventually get to. I don't want that in the context of being away from home on work or holiday.
5 marginal minutes is an eternity in customer service. Travelers are in a rush. The idea that Hertz will or even can train customers individually is a laughable fantasy.
In fact, one of the points of my loyalty programs with various car rental companies is that I can look at the board and walk straight to my car.
I rented an electric car from Hertz out of necessity. They gave me NO information about this functionality, and in a new car UI my priorities were covering the basics for safe travel. This is not a realistic perspective, that EV-specific in-car features would provide help for an unfamiliar and weary traveler. That will change over time but it'll continue to be painful for now.
I rented a Tesla from Hertz. They gave me zero instruction. It took me 10 minutes to get out of the parking space.
> Tesla lowered prices forcing them to recognize the depreciation
I'm surprised Tesla and Hertz couldn't work out a deal, e.g. reimbursement or a large discount on additional purchases that would wipe out the accounting charge. Rental vehicles are a sales channel for new vehicles. And every Hertz Tesla being dumped on the secondary market is new-vehicle profit Tesla could have booked.
I'm surprised Tesla and Hertz couldn't work out a deal, e.g. reimbursement or a large discount on additional purchases that would wipe out the accounting charge. Rental vehicles are a sales channel for new vehicles. And every Hertz Tesla being dumped on the secondary market is new-vehicle profit Tesla could have booked.
In what way would that have benefited Tesla more than the current situation?
PR more than anything. Tesla growth story is pretty much over, many people turned off the brand for a multitude of reasons (Musk, terrible service, price, lack of innovation, more EV competition). So if anything a good opportunity for Tesla to win some PR, potentially expand partnership, sell more cars.
Now they get more bad news "rental company dumps Tesla because of XYZ", the used market took a big hit as well pissing off existing owners, and I feel like this pushes newer buyers even more away.
Now they get more bad news "rental company dumps Tesla because of XYZ", the used market took a big hit as well pissing off existing owners, and I feel like this pushes newer buyers even more away.
>the used market took a big hit as well pissing off existing owners
Oh no, poor wealthy Tesla owners loosing value on their car. /s Since when are ordinary cars appreciable investments?
It's been well known cars tank in value, especially when you're an early adopter of new tech in a market that's in constant disruption. Your 1999 GeForce 256 also lost most of it's value in a year compared to other later GPUs, it's the nature of tech in a rapidly changing market.
People who expect cars to hold/go up in value need to buy limite edition exotics, not mass produced commodities.
EVs tanking in value on the used market is good for EV adoption as non wealthy people can afford them.
Oh no, poor wealthy Tesla owners loosing value on their car. /s Since when are ordinary cars appreciable investments?
It's been well known cars tank in value, especially when you're an early adopter of new tech in a market that's in constant disruption. Your 1999 GeForce 256 also lost most of it's value in a year compared to other later GPUs, it's the nature of tech in a rapidly changing market.
People who expect cars to hold/go up in value need to buy limite edition exotics, not mass produced commodities.
EVs tanking in value on the used market is good for EV adoption as non wealthy people can afford them.
>> good for EV adoption as non wealthy people can afford them.
The sticker price isn't the issue. The issue is ironically fuel costs. Anyone who doesn't own their own house will rely on commercial chargers. In many circumstances a commercial charger can cost more per-mile than gasoline, and certainly they take much more time. So the non-rich, people who rent apartments and don't generally have spare time, cannot afford a used EV despite the sticker price.
Not-rich people also generally own only one car. They cannot "afford" a vehicle that is expensive to fix, both in time and cash. A couple days waiting for a part is a couple days missed work. A few weeks without a car (ie most any Tesla repair) could mean a lost job.
The sticker price isn't the issue. The issue is ironically fuel costs. Anyone who doesn't own their own house will rely on commercial chargers. In many circumstances a commercial charger can cost more per-mile than gasoline, and certainly they take much more time. So the non-rich, people who rent apartments and don't generally have spare time, cannot afford a used EV despite the sticker price.
Not-rich people also generally own only one car. They cannot "afford" a vehicle that is expensive to fix, both in time and cash. A couple days waiting for a part is a couple days missed work. A few weeks without a car (ie most any Tesla repair) could mean a lost job.
It's a matter of degrees. A car losing 25% of its value is much better than losing 75% over the same time period. How well a vehicle will hold its value is a factor that many people factor into their purchasing decisions.
>How well a vehicle will hold its value is a factor that many people factor into their purchasing decisions.
Cars are commodities, like microwave ovens or washing machines, not houses. You won't get any sympathy because your risky economic bet didn't pan out the way you expected it to.
Cars are commodities, like microwave ovens or washing machines, not houses. You won't get any sympathy because your risky economic bet didn't pan out the way you expected it to.
> You won't get any sympathy because your risky economic bet didn't pan out the way you expected it to.
No one is offering sympathy, we're just saying that when buyers are considering a car, depreciation is a consideration.
Because, you see, no one simply burns down a 3 year old car when they want a new one - they use whatever equity in their existing car as part of the payment of the new car.
No one is offering sympathy, we're just saying that when buyers are considering a car, depreciation is a consideration.
Because, you see, no one simply burns down a 3 year old car when they want a new one - they use whatever equity in their existing car as part of the payment of the new car.
Not only that, but these were rented cheaply to Uber drivers. They'd come back with worn brakes from Ubers who'd drive hard and brake hard instead of using regen. They'd have batteries that had more cycles than most from charging to 100% whenever there was a break between rides.
They depreciated like a rented Uber, which seems entirely predictable.
They depreciated like a rented Uber, which seems entirely predictable.
One can buy a good brand like Lexus/Honda/Toyota or even BMW and be able to figure out their actual cost of ownership, depreciation is part of this.
If a value of a vehicle can drop $40k over a period of a month, it is too volatile and I will never purchase such brand.
If a value of a vehicle can drop $40k over a period of a month, it is too volatile and I will never purchase such brand.
>If a value of a vehicle can drop $40k over a period of a month, it is too volatile and I will never purchase such brand.
And why is this bad? Who said a brand/company is entitled to a certain amount of sales just because they exist? Aren't we in capitalisms where it's sink or swim and the market/customer is right? If a product is volatile maybe it's not good and people should orient to other brands, no?
If Tesla bins it, other better manufacturers will pick up the slack if the EV demand is there according to market forces. If the EV demand isn't there, maybe the EV hype was a bubble that was gonna pop sooner or later?
And why is this bad? Who said a brand/company is entitled to a certain amount of sales just because they exist? Aren't we in capitalisms where it's sink or swim and the market/customer is right? If a product is volatile maybe it's not good and people should orient to other brands, no?
If Tesla bins it, other better manufacturers will pick up the slack if the EV demand is there according to market forces. If the EV demand isn't there, maybe the EV hype was a bubble that was gonna pop sooner or later?
Why are you interpreting bad as some kind of moral position? You seem to be purposely misinterpreting these comments to start an argument about economic systems.
It's not bad that it happens, it's bad for Tesla if they are marketing their product as high-end/luxury while their product very obviously lacks the attributes, such as a stable/predictable value over time, that competitors' luxury products have. Someone deciding not to buy a product, for whatever reason, is the system working as intended. If Tesla can't produce a product people want to buy, Tesla will suffer the consequences, as they should. If they don't change their marketing or improve their product in the light of low sales, that's on them.
It's not bad that it happens, it's bad for Tesla if they are marketing their product as high-end/luxury while their product very obviously lacks the attributes, such as a stable/predictable value over time, that competitors' luxury products have. Someone deciding not to buy a product, for whatever reason, is the system working as intended. If Tesla can't produce a product people want to buy, Tesla will suffer the consequences, as they should. If they don't change their marketing or improve their product in the light of low sales, that's on them.
"Buying a car today is an investment into the future. I think the most profound thing is that if you buy a Tesla today, I believe you are buying an appreciating asset, not a depreciating asset."
-Elon Musk, 2019.
Whether you believed him or not is a different matter but that's what he said at the time.
-Elon Musk, 2019.
Whether you believed him or not is a different matter but that's what he said at the time.
Remember when he said your Model 3 can act like a robotaxi and earn you money? Pepridge farm remembers.
You are arguing with a straw man. Managing depreciation on a vehicle has nothing to do with anyone expecting appreciation. Many people simply want to maintain a reasonable residual value for their next trade in, and/or maintain an above-water loan.
>PR more than anything.
Tesla doesn't believe in PR[1].
[1]https://electrek.co/2021/04/28/elon-musk-no-new-tesla-pr-dep...
Tesla doesn't believe in PR[1].
[1]https://electrek.co/2021/04/28/elon-musk-no-new-tesla-pr-dep...
They didn’t believe in advertising either, but I’m getting alot of it.
Which is in itself, a PR stunt.
LOL. Tesla believes heavily in PR, Musk just doesn't believe in PR departments.
That's why if you're involved in a Tesla accident, even a fatal one, Tesla will have no hesitation holding a press conference, pulling vehicle telemetry, to make sure that (rightly or wrongly) blame goes to you as the driver and not Tesla.
They'll make statements like "Autopilot wasn't to blame here. The vehicle had warned the driver of his inattentiveness", and the Tesla fans will nod their heads, reassured.
What will later come out will be that Autopilot was active, and that while a driver attention (steering wheel) warning had occurred on the fateful trip, it had happened ONCE, and that that one time was EIGHTEEN MINUTES prior to the collision.
But there won't be a press conference to correct those details.
That's why if you're involved in a Tesla accident, even a fatal one, Tesla will have no hesitation holding a press conference, pulling vehicle telemetry, to make sure that (rightly or wrongly) blame goes to you as the driver and not Tesla.
They'll make statements like "Autopilot wasn't to blame here. The vehicle had warned the driver of his inattentiveness", and the Tesla fans will nod their heads, reassured.
What will later come out will be that Autopilot was active, and that while a driver attention (steering wheel) warning had occurred on the fateful trip, it had happened ONCE, and that that one time was EIGHTEEN MINUTES prior to the collision.
But there won't be a press conference to correct those details.
I feel compelled to point out that usually, the story develops the other direction - from:
"Autopilot crashes car, kills family!"
to (with much less fanfare):
"Actually, it was a drunk dude driving manually and wrapped his car around a tree at 120mph in his own driveway"
"Autopilot crashes car, kills family!"
to (with much less fanfare):
"Actually, it was a drunk dude driving manually and wrapped his car around a tree at 120mph in his own driveway"
Got an example of that?
I have never seen such a story from a respected source. Please provide some examples.
Two minutes before you responded: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39933211
Is the verge a reliable news source now? Oof.
[sigh]
You know, it's hard to know what sources other people consider to be "reputable" these days, so perhaps you could put on your big boy britches and google the subject to find a source you like rather than expecting us to know what you trust and don't trust? I mean, shit, if you bothered to look at the Verge article you'd have seen the link to the NTSB report. Here ya go...
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/09/ntsb-finds-no-evidence-tesla...
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tesla-crash-spring-texas-deaths...
https://fortune.com/2024/03/17/ntsb-fatal-crash-automated-dr...
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/02/autopilot-had-no-involv...
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/us-pro...
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/driver-was-behind-wheel...
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/21/automobiles/tesla-texas-c...
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/driver-was-behind-wheel-...
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/autopilot-engaged-texas-tesl...
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36387950/ntsb-investigati...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2021/05/10/ntsb-p...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39933859
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34731013
Would you like some more?
You know, it's hard to know what sources other people consider to be "reputable" these days, so perhaps you could put on your big boy britches and google the subject to find a source you like rather than expecting us to know what you trust and don't trust? I mean, shit, if you bothered to look at the Verge article you'd have seen the link to the NTSB report. Here ya go...
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/09/ntsb-finds-no-evidence-tesla...
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tesla-crash-spring-texas-deaths...
https://fortune.com/2024/03/17/ntsb-fatal-crash-automated-dr...
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/02/autopilot-had-no-involv...
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/us-pro...
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/driver-was-behind-wheel...
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/21/automobiles/tesla-texas-c...
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/driver-was-behind-wheel-...
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/autopilot-engaged-texas-tesl...
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36387950/ntsb-investigati...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2021/05/10/ntsb-p...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39933859
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34731013
Would you like some more?
Where are the initial headlines that blamed autopilot for this crash? The assertion had two parts and these stories only reflect the latter.
Here's the NTSB report: https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Pages/HWY21FH007.aspx
Musk might claim to not believe in PR but his twitter activities (both the purchase and his actual tweets) strongly imply he does care about public opinion and his ability to shape it.
What Musk does on Twitter is wholly separate from Tesla not having a PR department to handle some of the things that OP suggested. In fact, I'd wager that the lack of a PR department hampers Tesla's ability to control the negative reactions towards the company that have been caused by Musk's attempts to shape public discourse on Twitter.
And yet Elon does massive PR stunts on the regular, including smashing a Cybertruck's windows at a launch event. Curious...
>And yet Elon...
Elon does that. Tesla doesn't have a PR department to spend the time thinking about the things that the OP suggested they should consider.
Elon does that. Tesla doesn't have a PR department to spend the time thinking about the things that the OP suggested they should consider.
The parent comment said "Tesla doesn't believe in PR". It's clear that Tesla does in fact believe in PR judging by all of Elon's related activities, they just do it differently than other companies.
Also, look at website content like this: https://www.tesla.com/about
That is PR, regardless of whether you want to call the people doing it "PR" or not.
Also, look at website content like this: https://www.tesla.com/about
That is PR, regardless of whether you want to call the people doing it "PR" or not.
Elon believes in doing his own PR, but Tesla does not, simple as that. If I'm to believe that Tesla does believe in PR then, as I mentioned in response to another user, I'd wager they'd be doing a lot more to improve their image given how much of a negative impact Elon's poor attempts at shaping public discourse via Twitter has had on Tesla lately, where their stock is at, etc.
An "about" page is bog standard stuff and a pretty paltry effort in the grand scheme of the things a PR department at a company the size of Tesla would otherwise traditionally be doing. It's like, yes, technically that's a form of PR, sure, but it ain't much.
An "about" page is bog standard stuff and a pretty paltry effort in the grand scheme of the things a PR department at a company the size of Tesla would otherwise traditionally be doing. It's like, yes, technically that's a form of PR, sure, but it ain't much.
Sounds like they would have been able to sell more cars to Hertz.
Depending on when they negotiated the relevant stuff, Tesla might have thought they needed to contribute more to the deal to sell even the cars they ended up selling already.
Depending on when they negotiated the relevant stuff, Tesla might have thought they needed to contribute more to the deal to sell even the cars they ended up selling already.
Since Hertz was buying Teslas at near peak demand/hype, it's rumored that Hertz was buying the cars at full retail. No special deal for Hertz.
Good faith when dealing with customers who buy volume.
Last year Hertz gave me a Chevy Bolt. This was my first EV ever. I thought it’s pretty crazy to let people rent EVs without any training. It took me a long time to figure out how to charge the thing and how to find chargers. And the charger I found was super slow and would have taken hours to fully recharge.
I assume things are better with a Tesla but if somebody reasonably tech savvy like me has problems, I can’t even imagine how difficult it will be for many less tech savvy and less tech interested people I know to deal with an EV.
I assume things are better with a Tesla but if somebody reasonably tech savvy like me has problems, I can’t even imagine how difficult it will be for many less tech savvy and less tech interested people I know to deal with an EV.
A few weeks ago I rented a Model 3 from Hertz in San Diego, and the car didn't come with an SAE J1772 Charging Adapter (this covers most level 2 stations). That's crazy. I was staying primarily at UCSD for cancer treatment, and there are a million level 2 chargers that I couldn't access without the SAE J1772 dongle. The Tesla my wife and I have always has a SAE J1772 dongle in the center console. I complained about the lack of this essential part.
I ran into this. Desk staff said they had initially provided travel chargers but that so many got stolen that they stopped.
Seems to me that this could have been fixed by making them optional and requiring a deposit, but when you read in the article that Hertz had major IT issues it seems safe to assume that they didn’t have the capacity to make such process changes quickly.
Seems to me that this could have been fixed by making them optional and requiring a deposit, but when you read in the article that Hertz had major IT issues it seems safe to assume that they didn’t have the capacity to make such process changes quickly.
Hertz also had absurd policies like bring the EV back 100% charged. Which is basically impossible unless there is a DC fast charger adjacent to the rental car center.
As far as I saw, they required cars to come back 70% charged, or to the same level the car had when it went out.
Meanwhile, I'm trying to find the answer to this on a hypothetical hertz.fr RV rental.
They have a gas policy section, which says "Si vous avez loué un véhicule électrique, veuillez vous reporter à la section Véhicules électriques".
In other words, find and check the electric vehicle section. But they don't have a Véhicules électriques section...
They have a gas policy section, which says "Si vous avez loué un véhicule électrique, veuillez vous reporter à la section Véhicules électriques".
In other words, find and check the electric vehicle section. But they don't have a Véhicules électriques section...
Yes. This was the policy I saw when I considered renting an EV in Phoenix. We were only going to be there for 27 hours and our hotel did not have its Level 2 charger operational yet, so we opted for a gas car instead.
I rented a Bolt from Hertz last December and their policy at the time was:
“Return your EV at the same charge level as pick-up and pay $0. Or return your EV at any level for a $25 Recharge Fee.”
They were pretty lenient about the return charge — it was close to 100% to start and 80% when I returned it, but they didn’t charge me the $25. Even if they had, the EV rental rate was cheap enough that I would’ve still come out ahead vs. renting a gas car.
“Return your EV at the same charge level as pick-up and pay $0. Or return your EV at any level for a $25 Recharge Fee.”
They were pretty lenient about the return charge — it was close to 100% to start and 80% when I returned it, but they didn’t charge me the $25. Even if they had, the EV rental rate was cheap enough that I would’ve still come out ahead vs. renting a gas car.
Our local Ikea rented out CNG vans to unsuspecting customers. And you had to return it with a full tank. That was fun :)
Wow. I used to drive CNG airport shuttles in Seattle, where there were two pumping stations in the entire county (one just off the airport, fortunately).
>> Newbie Tesla drivers who weren’t used to the car’s instantaneous acceleration and immediate braking were running into obstacles or getting rear-ended, sometimes even before they left the rental lot. Hertz’s Teslas got into accidents four times more often than the company’s other vehicles.
That statistic from the article shocked me.
Four times?!
That statistic from the article shocked me.
Four times?!
> I thought it’s pretty crazy to let people rent EVs without any training.
They send you a bunch of "Explore your upcoming rental" emails when you rent a tesla, with video tutorials [1]. I've rented plug-in hybrids before and had pretty much the same experience as you, but for a tesla rental I watched the videos and all worked well.
https://www.hertz.com/us/en/vehicles/tesla/faq
They send you a bunch of "Explore your upcoming rental" emails when you rent a tesla, with video tutorials [1]. I've rented plug-in hybrids before and had pretty much the same experience as you, but for a tesla rental I watched the videos and all worked well.
https://www.hertz.com/us/en/vehicles/tesla/faq
My mother is the least tech-savvy person I know and she found it incredibly easy to intuitively use an EV (Volt). She also borrowed a friend's Tesla and had zero issues with it. Perhaps you are not as tech-savvy as you might think?
In fairness, the software is much easier to get up to speed on in the Tesla, especially as it relates to charging.
Often others require messing around with smartphone apps, often with very bad UI.
Often others require messing around with smartphone apps, often with very bad UI.
The ChargePoint app was the main killer. It told me several times that I am ready to charge but the charger wouldn’t unlock. Thankfully after a while a guy came by and told you need to do something in your wallet before it will work. Don’t remember the details.
I know this is anecdata, but of a couple of friends that had Tesla rentals from Hertz, the number one issue was charging availability, or lack thereof. The fleet maintenance issues may have also been a factor, but from what I observed I would not take an EV as a rental car myself, solely because of the charging issue.
Charging issue being that they couldn't find any available superchargers using the in-car navigation? Or was the in-car navigation not working because it was a rental? That would be a serious problem on a Tesla where the software stack is critical to running the vehicle properly.
The in-car navigation to the nearest supercharger worked, but:
- some markets don't have an abundance of fast superchargers. It can take > 1 hour to charge.
- vehicles would often get returned mostly discharged, which forces the next customer to deal with it.
- I rented a few that appeared to have been driven really hard, leading the remaining charge calibration to become mis calibrated, which caused me to have to stop for some unscheduled charges.
- the vehicles lose a few percent of charge per day even when not driven (worse in hot weather)
- Hertz locations are typically not equipped with any kind of charging infrastructure -- if they were, EVs would be far more convenient to rent.
I wish the program would continue, and I would still prefer to rent a Tesla over the other options, but I think the aforementioned things factored into the failure.
- some markets don't have an abundance of fast superchargers. It can take > 1 hour to charge.
- vehicles would often get returned mostly discharged, which forces the next customer to deal with it.
- I rented a few that appeared to have been driven really hard, leading the remaining charge calibration to become mis calibrated, which caused me to have to stop for some unscheduled charges.
- the vehicles lose a few percent of charge per day even when not driven (worse in hot weather)
- Hertz locations are typically not equipped with any kind of charging infrastructure -- if they were, EVs would be far more convenient to rent.
I wish the program would continue, and I would still prefer to rent a Tesla over the other options, but I think the aforementioned things factored into the failure.
>the vehicles lose a few percent of charge per day even when not driven (worse in hot weather)
Is that a Tesla thing? Or does Hertz have some sort of battery draining telematics? I have a non-Tesla EV and even in warm weather (100°F+) that hasn't been the case for me. If the weather changes drastically the SOC might change ±2%, but when I've left my car sitting for weeks it seems to average out
Is that a Tesla thing? Or does Hertz have some sort of battery draining telematics? I have a non-Tesla EV and even in warm weather (100°F+) that hasn't been the case for me. If the weather changes drastically the SOC might change ±2%, but when I've left my car sitting for weeks it seems to average out
It could have been the aforementioned mis-calibration as well, not sure. I consulted some help/documentation at the time and it said it was normal.
With respect to telematics, I think the only change to the vehicle was that a few menu options were unavailable. I updated the software on one of the vehicles, renamed a few, added some to the app, etc.
In my opinion, a Hertz office with sufficient charging capacity could be great with EVs. (I also don't understand why traditional gas stations aren't already featuring a few high capacity charging stalls)
With respect to telematics, I think the only change to the vehicle was that a few menu options were unavailable. I updated the software on one of the vehicles, renamed a few, added some to the app, etc.
In my opinion, a Hertz office with sufficient charging capacity could be great with EVs. (I also don't understand why traditional gas stations aren't already featuring a few high capacity charging stalls)
From the accounts I saw it was mostly that the available charging locations were too far out of the way, and too slow. When someone is renting a car for business meetings you don't want to spend a bunch of time on a charger scavenger hunt and then be forced to sit there killing time.
I dunno about the back end business parts of it, but I've rented a few cars recently, and Hertz was not only 20-30% more expensive than Enterprise, but getting a Model 3 from them was over double the price of a comparable gas car. There's no way I was going to get enough miles in to make the fuel cost worth that differential.
Pricing is going to depend a lot on the dynamics of the local market and the number of cars each company has available. (Article mentions that rental companies will truck cars between markets and that anticipating demand is key to being profitable.)
For a while last summer, EVs from Hertz were the cheapest cars you could rent in the Seattle area because they had many and customers didn’t want them. Sounds like they’ve been selling them off.
For a while last summer, EVs from Hertz were the cheapest cars you could rent in the Seattle area because they had many and customers didn’t want them. Sounds like they’ve been selling them off.
The thing that gets me is that the guys who lead this effort are go-getting ex-finance, ex-trading people who work their butts off and have attention to detail of a microscope. And the article mentions that they did in fact do detailed studies and make financial models of the venture and things looked good enough to push forward. So... clearly even their experience, hard work, and attention to detail was not enough to predict what would happen.
I'm not sure what that means in the end :-). Maybe predicting the future is just hard? Maybe it was a 30-60 bet and they just got unlucky? In that case what they did was not unreasonable and had it worked the same journalists that cackle at them with schadenfreude would be singing their praises.
I'm not sure what that means in the end :-). Maybe predicting the future is just hard? Maybe it was a 30-60 bet and they just got unlucky? In that case what they did was not unreasonable and had it worked the same journalists that cackle at them with schadenfreude would be singing their praises.
My experience with Finance/PE people is that they don't really care about any details. They want all decks to be like three slides. If you can't represent something on a spreadsheet it doesn't count. And they're extremely good at working backwards from a conclusion.
I'm sure they never asked "how fast can they be repaired?" "What will the customer experience be when a car has to be paired with your phone and you need a Tesla account?" "Are the maintenance claims put out by the manufacturer reasonable?" etc. etc.
I'm sure they never asked "how fast can they be repaired?" "What will the customer experience be when a car has to be paired with your phone and you need a Tesla account?" "Are the maintenance claims put out by the manufacturer reasonable?" etc. etc.
Or maybe a background in finance is not actually enough to know how to launch a totally new product within your company. Maybe you need some people with engineering expertise to ask a different set of questions beyond "will the costs add up?"
The scenario of Elon aggressively cutting prices was likely not something they modeled as it is pretty unprecedented.
Elon should have kept prices high while giving deep discounts and priority on parts to fleet purchases. That is what a sane car manufacturer does. To keep cars moving for retail you can have limited sales for holidays and seasons with "cash back" (not officially changing base price) and buying the loan APR to a lower rate.
Instead Elon crashed the price of Tesla's entire lineup.
Elon should have kept prices high while giving deep discounts and priority on parts to fleet purchases. That is what a sane car manufacturer does. To keep cars moving for retail you can have limited sales for holidays and seasons with "cash back" (not officially changing base price) and buying the loan APR to a lower rate.
Instead Elon crashed the price of Tesla's entire lineup.
It seems to me that the finance guys were completely out of their element and when their models didn’t fit the reality on the ground they couldn’t adapt at all.
when I rented a Tesla, by mistake, because they didn't have any other cars available, charging was definitely the problem. They charged me the same price as their cheapest cars, but it still ended up being more expensive because of charging (I paid about $900 for 3 weeks of charging at Tesla's stations, and it would probably would have cost me $300 with a small gasoline car)
In other words, you gotta be stupid to rent a Tesla unless you do it just for fun.
In other words, you gotta be stupid to rent a Tesla unless you do it just for fun.
> I paid about $900 for 3 weeks of charging at Tesla's stations
Huh. Did you rent a Tesla and then have to pay separately for the privilege of using Tesla's charging network?
I've had a Tesla for years and what you paid for 3 weeks is comparable for what I've paid at superchargers the entire time I've owned the car (I mostly charge at home). It seems you did get ripped off, it just seems like it would be difficult to pay that much in three weeks at superchargers alone. There must have been some special surcharge (as it were).
Huh. Did you rent a Tesla and then have to pay separately for the privilege of using Tesla's charging network?
I've had a Tesla for years and what you paid for 3 weeks is comparable for what I've paid at superchargers the entire time I've owned the car (I mostly charge at home). It seems you did get ripped off, it just seems like it would be difficult to pay that much in three weeks at superchargers alone. There must have been some special surcharge (as it were).
Not OP but you do have to pay separately. Although as you say, that's a crazy amount for just 3 weeks. In my experience I was charged about $100 for two weeks of regular use + one roadtrip from Miami to Orlando and back.
Maybe it was just idle fees, that seems like it could go up by a lot if you leave the vehicle on the station:
>For every additional minute a vehicle remains connected to the Supercharger, it will incur an idle fee.
https://www.tesla.com/support/charging/supercharger/fees
Maybe it was just idle fees, that seems like it could go up by a lot if you leave the vehicle on the station:
>For every additional minute a vehicle remains connected to the Supercharger, it will incur an idle fee.
https://www.tesla.com/support/charging/supercharger/fees
I only checked a few countries, but it does appear that the UK is getting a really bad deal on those idling fees.
I always charged at Tesla's stations because I never was home, and the charges was a surprise at the end of the rental because they charged me only once when I returned the car... no clue if they ripped me off because it was the first time I used electric car chargers and didn't pay close attention to the receipt.
I know it would have been a whole lot cheaper if I had my own charger though.
I know it would have been a whole lot cheaper if I had my own charger though.
"I mostly charge at home"
That's kind of a key point. It may not be possible with a rental.
That's kind of a key point. It may not be possible with a rental.
Did they charge you idle fees somehow? Unfortunately that's the other mistake that we've seen sometimes.
Not that you actually incurred them necessarily. There've been cases of them billing hundreds in idle fees by mistake.
$900 of supercharging would typically be >6k miles. Possibly a little less or a _lot_ more depending on the exact costs in your area.
Not that you actually incurred them necessarily. There've been cases of them billing hundreds in idle fees by mistake.
$900 of supercharging would typically be >6k miles. Possibly a little less or a _lot_ more depending on the exact costs in your area.
Assuming $0.48 per kilowatt, that's 1875kW.
At 7 km per kW that is 13 thousand kilometers or 8 thousand miles.
That is about 400 miles per day every day in 3 weeks. Wow.
A hypothetical Toyota Camry, btw, would have consumed more than $900 worth of fuel.
A hypothetical Toyota Camry, btw, would have consumed more than $900 worth of fuel.
I was saddled with an EV from Hertz unexpectedly (they said it was the only car left), and had to drive from NYC to MD and back.
Charging was absolutely the worst part. And most of the charging stations were full at any given time.
Range was extra bad due to the cold as well.
I understand the EV model for home use, but it makes 0 sense for rentals today. It's vastly less convenient, even ignoring the other factors like depreciation
Charging was absolutely the worst part. And most of the charging stations were full at any given time.
Range was extra bad due to the cold as well.
I understand the EV model for home use, but it makes 0 sense for rentals today. It's vastly less convenient, even ignoring the other factors like depreciation
the primitive state of charging in the US was a very large factor in the decision. i own an EV (egolf), so i'm already used to how terrible charging can be.
last year i went on a trip to LA and got a polestar for 4 days! car was fine, but finding a working and available charger was a nightmare. after spending 10m on one charger that would take my CC but not connect to the car, i moved to another spot and tried again. that charger would actually connect to my car, but it wouldn't take my CC. a few minutes after that, i called chargepoint tech support but neither of us could understand as i was in a parking garage.
after 15m on the phone before giving up and about to punch something, someone left and a new charger spot opened up. that one worked, but it wasn't chargepoint so i had to download a new app.
so, it took over 45m for me to get the car plugged in and a ton of stress for the ONE charge i needed to perform. i can guarantee that my experience is far from out of the ordinary, and i will never rent an EV again.
last year i went on a trip to LA and got a polestar for 4 days! car was fine, but finding a working and available charger was a nightmare. after spending 10m on one charger that would take my CC but not connect to the car, i moved to another spot and tried again. that charger would actually connect to my car, but it wouldn't take my CC. a few minutes after that, i called chargepoint tech support but neither of us could understand as i was in a parking garage.
after 15m on the phone before giving up and about to punch something, someone left and a new charger spot opened up. that one worked, but it wasn't chargepoint so i had to download a new app.
so, it took over 45m for me to get the car plugged in and a ton of stress for the ONE charge i needed to perform. i can guarantee that my experience is far from out of the ordinary, and i will never rent an EV again.
> The real killer was no doubt depreciation. That breaks the whole rental car model.
Yep. It's not just about rental income - it's about acquiring fleet at bulk/discounted prices and then reselling quickly before they lose too much money. Tesla's drastic price cuts have been annoying to consumers who just bought cars whose resale value plummeted overnight, but a complete deal breaker for a company like Hertz, only exacerbated by unexpectedly high repair costs.
I'd imagine charging must have been a demand factor too - people might like to experiment with an EV rental if they don't own one, but on business or vacation the last thing you want to be worried about is finding a charger or range-anxiety. If you have an EV at home, then part of the convenience, and a mitigation for slow charging, is overnight charging. Many hotels (often used by rental customers) are starting to have chargers too, but it's not something you can depend on.
Yep. It's not just about rental income - it's about acquiring fleet at bulk/discounted prices and then reselling quickly before they lose too much money. Tesla's drastic price cuts have been annoying to consumers who just bought cars whose resale value plummeted overnight, but a complete deal breaker for a company like Hertz, only exacerbated by unexpectedly high repair costs.
I'd imagine charging must have been a demand factor too - people might like to experiment with an EV rental if they don't own one, but on business or vacation the last thing you want to be worried about is finding a charger or range-anxiety. If you have an EV at home, then part of the convenience, and a mitigation for slow charging, is overnight charging. Many hotels (often used by rental customers) are starting to have chargers too, but it's not something you can depend on.
I for one would love a company that rents out “ragged out” vehicles for bottom dollar. A well maintained toyota etc. lasts 20 years. Rent me the fully depreciated vehicle and reap pure profit. Not to mention not worrying about every little dent or scratch. Sounds like a dream rental to me.
Side note: when renting in other countries, I always ask for the worst looking beat up car that they have. Really is less stressful to drive around.
Side note: when renting in other countries, I always ask for the worst looking beat up car that they have. Really is less stressful to drive around.
Agreed! In the US there is a company that does this but they don’t have a nationwide presence: https://www.rentawreck.com/. Also in Iceland there is “Sad Car” which was great for kicking around.
In the 90s, RentAWreck at least used to be part of an operation called FixAWreck who did low cost auto repairs. I used them shortly after I'd moved and had an excellent time with the two sub-compacts they gave me while my car was in their shop.
When did you rent with SADCars? I did once in 2014, and cheaply got some small old manual beater, which was just perfect.
But I think they've "pivoted" to just another rental company since then. Looking at their website and Google maps reviews the cars now look new, and indistinguishable from what you'd get from Eurocar, Hertz etc.
But I think they've "pivoted" to just another rental company since then. Looking at their website and Google maps reviews the cars now look new, and indistinguishable from what you'd get from Eurocar, Hertz etc.
I rented in 2015 and it was an experience.
I had to turn down the first car due to non-functioning wipers and a broken door handle.
Ended up with a Subaru Forester that had definitely seen a lot of miles and had its share of minor issues, but was a beast in the surprise blizzard.
Shame if they pivoted but their office was a pain to deal with and last thing you want after a red-eye is to be worried about the car maybe not actually working properly. Decided next time we'd just rent from a more established brand.
From their FAQ:
> However, we decided to use the name to make it more memorable as our cars used to be older in the beginning but it's been many years since we stopped using old cars and now all our cars are new, or one or two years old
I had to turn down the first car due to non-functioning wipers and a broken door handle.
Ended up with a Subaru Forester that had definitely seen a lot of miles and had its share of minor issues, but was a beast in the surprise blizzard.
Shame if they pivoted but their office was a pain to deal with and last thing you want after a red-eye is to be worried about the car maybe not actually working properly. Decided next time we'd just rent from a more established brand.
From their FAQ:
> However, we decided to use the name to make it more memorable as our cars used to be older in the beginning but it's been many years since we stopped using old cars and now all our cars are new, or one or two years old
There was one in Australia when I was there, Rent A Bomb.
Isn't that the premise of Rent-a-Wreck?
With a clean, damage-free car, you know there isn't anything on the car you can be blamed for that you didn't put there yourself.
I used to do zipcar and I would always do a full walk-around and email zipcar support a set of photos of any and all damage I'd find before I'd even unlocked the vehicle so there was proof the damage wasn't caused by me.
I did this after Zipcar claimed a dent that was already on the car was put there by me, because a prior renter didn't disclose it, or zipcar was double-dipping.
Finding a clean, undamaged car was a relief because I knew I could take photos afterward
It got particularly annoying because after the first 4-5 years zipcar clearly cut back on maintenance and repairs. Cars kept getting dirtier, more damaged, more "weird noises from the suspension", etc. Cars would be overdue for oil changes, have check engine lights on, etc.
I used to do zipcar and I would always do a full walk-around and email zipcar support a set of photos of any and all damage I'd find before I'd even unlocked the vehicle so there was proof the damage wasn't caused by me.
I did this after Zipcar claimed a dent that was already on the car was put there by me, because a prior renter didn't disclose it, or zipcar was double-dipping.
Finding a clean, undamaged car was a relief because I knew I could take photos afterward
It got particularly annoying because after the first 4-5 years zipcar clearly cut back on maintenance and repairs. Cars kept getting dirtier, more damaged, more "weird noises from the suspension", etc. Cars would be overdue for oil changes, have check engine lights on, etc.
There was a business in the UK doing this but didn't work out any cheaper than a regular rental from Enterprise. Economy of scale at such a level is hard to beat.
It's not economy of scale - they get to write off depreciation at a much higher rate than the cars actually depreciate.
This is true of all businesses and all capital. It's a great big tax cheat, centered around companies getting to claim that their capital is worthless after just a few years.
This is true of all businesses and all capital. It's a great big tax cheat, centered around companies getting to claim that their capital is worthless after just a few years.
How would that actually help long term though? Imagine they write off their entire entire fleet in 1 year. Yes they pay less tax that year, but in future years when they sell their old cars that are worth nothing for lots of money they'll have a load of extra tax to pay.
I can see how it lets you move tax around in time a bit but that's it (and it's often allowed explicitly anyway).
Am I missing something or is this the common "tax write-off = magical money" misunderstanding?
I can see how it lets you move tax around in time a bit but that's it (and it's often allowed explicitly anyway).
Am I missing something or is this the common "tax write-off = magical money" misunderstanding?
On top of that the business referred to was a UK one and that means max 18%/year on ICE cars (6% if high CO2 emissions).
How is this a “tax cheat” and not simply a tax deferral? Businesses can deduct expenses, and accelerated depreciation is not increased depreciation.
Budget/Avis is getting there. I had an absolutely horrible rental at O'Hare about five years ago. Rattles and squeaks and probably 50,000 miles overdue for an alignment.
Last fall, I got an almost new Mazda SUV from Avis. I was 3 miles down the road when a Service Engine Soon message took over the entire center of the dashboard. I hope they got it serviced after I returned it the next day.
Last fall, I got an almost new Mazda SUV from Avis. I was 3 miles down the road when a Service Engine Soon message took over the entire center of the dashboard. I hope they got it serviced after I returned it the next day.
There used to be "rent a dent" discount car rentals that did exactly this. You could save a bunch by renting a clearly used (and usually scuffed/dented) car.
I agree about driving a brand-new rental being stressful. I don't to worry about little scratches and dings, especially when you're driving an unfamiliar car in a foreign place.
I agree about driving a brand-new rental being stressful. I don't to worry about little scratches and dings, especially when you're driving an unfamiliar car in a foreign place.
We rented from a place called SAD CARS in Iceland. The car... worked for our entire trip.
The way you said that worries me... were there other issues?
It's been a little while, but I've used Turo for this a few times. Got older, rattier cars for $20-$25/day, and way less hassle than trying to deal with Hertz/Budget/etc. It was perfect for my needs.
You can do this with Turo.
I think you're right. The actual rental car model is to garner large discounts from the auto manufacturer, rent the car for a time, then sell it via the rental car used-car lot.
The purchase discount (maybe fleet rate) is usually wrapped in a contract - the car must NOT be sold within a certain time or under a certain mileage - and in this way does not compete with the manufacturer's car dealers.
Hertz and Tesla did not have any sort of contract like this. This means that Hertz did not have any concessions from Tesla. Instead of Tesla having a special relationship with Hertz - a car discount, guaranteed quick repairs, possibly special rental-car software helping renters onboard with the car - Hertz got NOTHING.
It should have gotten something, at minimum some sort of fleet rate. It was a VERY good customer. Instead Tesla gave nothing and got a lot of bad PR in the end.
The purchase discount (maybe fleet rate) is usually wrapped in a contract - the car must NOT be sold within a certain time or under a certain mileage - and in this way does not compete with the manufacturer's car dealers.
Hertz and Tesla did not have any sort of contract like this. This means that Hertz did not have any concessions from Tesla. Instead of Tesla having a special relationship with Hertz - a car discount, guaranteed quick repairs, possibly special rental-car software helping renters onboard with the car - Hertz got NOTHING.
It should have gotten something, at minimum some sort of fleet rate. It was a VERY good customer. Instead Tesla gave nothing and got a lot of bad PR in the end.
> The article posits charging as the problem but that's not actually true.
How isn't it?
It's literally the first reason why people avoided renting electric cars according to pretty much every poll out there. Not even the polls, it's literally what Hertz that commissioned studies on their low rental rate found out.
And you can count me as one, I would never rent an electric car in a place I don't know, especially when on vacation/work, where I don't know where and when I will be able to charge and I'm busy already.
I'm more prone to owning, but renting will be a no for quite some time.
How isn't it?
It's literally the first reason why people avoided renting electric cars according to pretty much every poll out there. Not even the polls, it's literally what Hertz that commissioned studies on their low rental rate found out.
And you can count me as one, I would never rent an electric car in a place I don't know, especially when on vacation/work, where I don't know where and when I will be able to charge and I'm busy already.
I'm more prone to owning, but renting will be a no for quite some time.
> Fleet damage was more expensive to repair and took longer.
Do car rental companies even bother to fix collision-damaged vehicles? I assumed they would just sell them off.
Do car rental companies even bother to fix collision-damaged vehicles? I assumed they would just sell them off.
Fixing collision damaged vehicles is a profit center. They'll bill your insurance for every tangentially related maintenance item they'd been putting off (the belt is _obviously_ squeeky because the collision loosened the tensioner, the brakes are worn down because the emergency stop was too aggressive, the windshield fluid won't come out because the shock knocked a wire loose in the electric pump, ...). The car comes out in better shape than it went in.
That pales in comparison to the charges for lost income they claim they would have received from the car while it was out of service.
90% of their fleet at that location might sit unused for a week or more, and most of their rentals are steeply discounted from the standard rate - but that car you backed into a pole? Why, that one would have been earning them the standard rate, every day.
90% of their fleet at that location might sit unused for a week or more, and most of their rentals are steeply discounted from the standard rate - but that car you backed into a pole? Why, that one would have been earning them the standard rate, every day.
Counter-point: I rent cars fairly frequently and over the past 30 years I've had three damaged. Case 1 windshield hit by rock and cracked. Case 2 creased driver door via grey pillar in gray colored underground parking lot. Case 3 semi truck with those pointy front wheel nuts max-maxed my passenger door with them. In all three cases the outcome was positive. No excess charges or shenanigans.
otoh Hertz have twice billed me for damage I definitely did not cause. In one case for a scratch on the front air dam that you had to lie down under the vehicle to see (which their agent in fact did when I returned the car). So now I use Avis.
otoh Hertz have twice billed me for damage I definitely did not cause. In one case for a scratch on the front air dam that you had to lie down under the vehicle to see (which their agent in fact did when I returned the car). So now I use Avis.
Does that still apply in the case of rental car companies that self insure?
In the US, you (and transitively your insurance) are liable as a driver if you cause damage. You can separately have a contract assigning that liability (e.g., the $20/day or so a rental company will often offer to waive basically all physical damage to the car at a $0 deductible). I assume it's that latter sort of thing you're referring to?
I'm not sure how they handle cars damaged under those sorts of policies. I do know those policies are also wildly profitable (I've never come close to approaching eqv. $7300/yr for insurance, despite a horrible driving record when I was younger). Rental cars don't even crash 1.5x as often per mile, so a 5-20x multiple on your premium is noteworthy.
I'm not sure how they handle cars damaged under those sorts of policies. I do know those policies are also wildly profitable (I've never come close to approaching eqv. $7300/yr for insurance, despite a horrible driving record when I was younger). Rental cars don't even crash 1.5x as often per mile, so a 5-20x multiple on your premium is noteworthy.
If you rent cars frequently, consider getting a credit card that includes free collision damage waiver and loss-of-use coverage for rental cars.
The coverage you buy from the rental company is a massive rip-off, that's why credit cards can offer it for free as a perquisite.
The coverage you buy from the rental company is a massive rip-off, that's why credit cards can offer it for free as a perquisite.
Most regular cars can still be driven after a (minor) collision, they might need some work to fix them up but usually they are fine. If you're ok with mostly cosmetic damage or replacing a body panel, then it's a great buy.
A Tesla after a minor collision might disable itself entirely until inspected by a Tesla technician, and it might need a whole new (and very expensive) battery pack - no one would(or should) take a bet on such a car.
So it's a lot less attractive thing to buy over regular cars.
A Tesla after a minor collision might disable itself entirely until inspected by a Tesla technician, and it might need a whole new (and very expensive) battery pack - no one would(or should) take a bet on such a car.
So it's a lot less attractive thing to buy over regular cars.
Teslas do not "disable themselves"; it's done by Tesla HQ, using criteria they do not disclose, but it seems to be just a matter of whether the crash happens to come to their attention.
Rich Rebuilds has covered this extensively. Sometimes he comes across a heavily damaged Tesla, still on their network that hasn't been disabled. Other times he comes across one with minor damage that has been disabled. I believe one of his rebuilds, he took some of the guts from a heavily damaged car that wasn't deactivated to transplant into the guts of a car that had easily repaired damage that had been.
Rich Rebuilds has covered this extensively. Sometimes he comes across a heavily damaged Tesla, still on their network that hasn't been disabled. Other times he comes across one with minor damage that has been disabled. I believe one of his rebuilds, he took some of the guts from a heavily damaged car that wasn't deactivated to transplant into the guts of a car that had easily repaired damage that had been.
> Teslas do not "disable themselves"; it's done by Tesla HQ
That’s the same thing. If the owner isn’t disabling the car, then it is disabling itself.
That’s the same thing. If the owner isn’t disabling the car, then it is disabling itself.
Interesting - it was my understanding that most collisions(and definitely collisions that activate airbags) cause the car to disable itself until inspected. Good to know that this isn't always the case.
I've never heard this being the case, and I sure hope it isn't for most cars.
Imagine being in a remote area.. you hit a deer after slowing down.. and now you're trapped at night? You're in death valley offroading a little too enthusiastically, airbags deploy and now you're stuck? A small fender bender in Baja Mexico and you're disabled?
I once rolled a vehicle in Nevada being stupid with friends. Airbags deployed. The radiator was crushed and leaking. We strapped the radiator support to another vehicle and bent it back out. Took the other vehicle into town and bought a radiator at AutoZone. Installed it and drove it an hour home. The steering wheel was only slightly off center.
I once rolled a vehicle in Nevada being stupid with friends. Airbags deployed. The radiator was crushed and leaking. We strapped the radiator support to another vehicle and bent it back out. Took the other vehicle into town and bought a radiator at AutoZone. Installed it and drove it an hour home. The steering wheel was only slightly off center.
Hire cars in the UK often have a long list of already-known dents and scrapes. You have to be super careful and check the car over to spot any others so you don’t end up paying for prior damage. But all those dents have been paid for by previous renters; the hire company charges the renter but doesn’t actually fix the damage…
This is all in the article.
Yes, the article discusses slow, expensive repairs and Tesla’s price drops
How do you say so confidently without stating your sources?
Charging and long drives, both tough conditions somewhere that isn't my home city both would be major issues. They sold off the cars at a low cost so not sure how they amended depreciation doing that.
Charging and long drives, both tough conditions somewhere that isn't my home city both would be major issues. They sold off the cars at a low cost so not sure how they amended depreciation doing that.
Is there a good place to look at these 1-year-old (specifically) RVs post-dumping?
I suggest you read up EV charging in New York city. At any one time at least a third is faulty. Charging is HUGE problem. When you have it at home, with your home charging, it doesnt seem so much of a problem for you. But when you have masses running EVs, a handful of Tesla super chargers CANNOT compete agains a handful of gas stations which is way way way more efficient servicing their ICE cars than the same for EVs by supercharger. You literally have to have gas triple in price and solar/fusion supplying electricity to get masses to wait extra 30mins for their cheap charging. And now, USA is in conundrum, if they support EVs, Chinese will wipe clean all American manufacturers worst than peak Japan auto. Of they dont, Americans will stuck in their stone age ICE. Look forward for Joe and Trump to declare Chinese EVs and batteries are national security threat. You can only buy expensive Model 8000 from Elon.
Why do you think that? Do you work in that industry?
Eh... The charging is an issue. I have been in a position to rent EVs before but opted not to. If I own a Tesla, then I likely have a charger at home (and possibly at work), so dealing with charging is only an issue on my rare long haul trips (and if I frequently make long-haul trips, I probably own a gas car), which I'd be willing to put up with. If i'm renting in a city i'm visiting though:
1) I'm likely driving more than I do at home
2) I don't know if my hotel/s will have chargers
3) I am cognizant of my time and don't want to drive out of my way to sit in parking lots while my car charges
4) I might be travelling to rural areas where chargers are infrequent
Not saying that the issues you brought up are invalid, but I do think there's a demand problem.
1) I'm likely driving more than I do at home
2) I don't know if my hotel/s will have chargers
3) I am cognizant of my time and don't want to drive out of my way to sit in parking lots while my car charges
4) I might be travelling to rural areas where chargers are infrequent
Not saying that the issues you brought up are invalid, but I do think there's a demand problem.
A mountain of waste generated for a short term profit. There has to be a better way.
> mountain of waste generated for a short term profit
The vehicles are sold after use, not disposed of.
The vehicles are sold after use, not disposed of.
... if you find a buyer for them which is the real problem. Not many people want to drive a car that has been used as a short-term rental, because they're a guarantee for needing a replacement clutch and engine at least. People drive rental cars like shit, and it shows up everywhere.
From what I've seen the most desirable vehicles on used car lots are former rentals. Maybe slightly behind cars that fell off of a lease. There's always the stories about people who rent cars so they can thrash them in street races or whatnot, but really most rentals are for businesspeople who need to get around a city for a bit. The companies usually try to keep up on the basic maintenance items as well, which is not always the case for used cars. You get a fairly new car with higher than average but not crazy miles for a decent price.
These Teslas should also qualify for the $4000 used EV tax credit as well, which could make them quite an affordable option.
These Teslas should also qualify for the $4000 used EV tax credit as well, which could make them quite an affordable option.
They sell pretty quickly. They price a little bit lower than normal cars. People need cars, and don’t have cash.
Not many people want to drive a car that has been used as a short-term rental, because they're a guarantee for needing a replacement clutch and engine at least
Well, obviously not in this case. Battery health would be the only real concern, I suppose, and that hasn't proven to be an issue so far.
Well, obviously not in this case. Battery health would be the only real concern, I suppose, and that hasn't proven to be an issue so far.
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The disposable economy is pretty shit.
Having rented a Tesla via Hertz last year, here are some quick remembrances:
-The car was not charged fully when I rented it.
-I had to park in a pay parking lot at a shopping mall to charge the car. Charging to 100% cost me $7 but took 30 minutes of my time.
-The UX of most of the basic car functions was much harder to learn than a typical rental car. I'm sure that Tesla's UX quirks start to feel normal after a while, but I had trouble locating basic car functions and had to text with Tesla-owning friends for advice.
None of these things made me want to rent a Tesla again.
-The car was not charged fully when I rented it.
-I had to park in a pay parking lot at a shopping mall to charge the car. Charging to 100% cost me $7 but took 30 minutes of my time.
-The UX of most of the basic car functions was much harder to learn than a typical rental car. I'm sure that Tesla's UX quirks start to feel normal after a while, but I had trouble locating basic car functions and had to text with Tesla-owning friends for advice.
None of these things made me want to rent a Tesla again.
> The UX of most of the basic car functions was much harder to learn than a typical rental car. I'm sure that Tesla's UX quirks start to feel normal after a while, but I had trouble locating basic car functions and had to text with Tesla-owning friends for advice.
This was also my experience: "you'd only know if someone told you or you looked it up, and late at night after a cross country flight with two tired kids while poking at unfamiliar menu options on the dashboard tablet I was pretty frustrated with their minimally discoverable approach" https://www.jefftk.com/p/tesla-model-3-review
This was also my experience: "you'd only know if someone told you or you looked it up, and late at night after a cross country flight with two tired kids while poking at unfamiliar menu options on the dashboard tablet I was pretty frustrated with their minimally discoverable approach" https://www.jefftk.com/p/tesla-model-3-review
For me, test driving a Tesla was a very scary experience because of this. They're not intuitive at all, though I'm sure those who own Tesla's are mostly familiar with the quirks.
That was an excellent write up! I am really surprised that the built-in navigation system does not enable you to search for charging + activity. That seems like it ought to be essential!
Thanks!
It's possible that searching for charging+activity is possible and I just didn't find it? But I spent a while looking!
It's possible that searching for charging+activity is possible and I just didn't find it? But I spent a while looking!
> The major downside of the cruise control was phantom braking. In about 450mi of driving up and down CA 101 I has three false positives, where we suddenly decelerated:
> I was in the rightmost of two lanes and an SUV was parked in the breakdown lane with its hazards on.
Why was this a false positive?? This is what you are supposed to do if you don't get over to the left.
> I was in the rightmost of two lanes and an SUV was parked in the breakdown lane with its hazards on.
Why was this a false positive?? This is what you are supposed to do if you don't get over to the left.
They said it 'suddenly decelerated.' That is NOT what you are supposed to do when a car is in the breakdown lane.
Similar experience.
- Rented Model Y. Show up and no Model Y. “We got a 3”. I’m driving to Vermont with snow but no choice now. “Ok sounds great.”
- Have to stop every couple hours to charge.
- Multiple times the GPS plotted us a route which would have battery hit 0% before arriving to charger. Nerve wracking.
- Most of the full speed charging stations had lines and if we did the slow speed ones our entire weekend trip would be spent charging.
- Regenerative braking is cool till you’re going down hill in snow with all season tires. Then it’s a great way to lock up and slide. Thankfully I’m not a noob. (Also not that I expected winter tires from a rental, even in Boston, but cmon Hertz.)
My biggest takeaway is that if where we stayed had a charger for overnight charging it would have been fine. Without that it was undeniably worse than renting a gas car. We basically had to plan our days around the rental which is a bit insane. I don’t doubt that having one to whip around local with a charger at home would rule but for anything more than short drives I don’t think a rental electric makes sense.
- Rented Model Y. Show up and no Model Y. “We got a 3”. I’m driving to Vermont with snow but no choice now. “Ok sounds great.”
- Have to stop every couple hours to charge.
- Multiple times the GPS plotted us a route which would have battery hit 0% before arriving to charger. Nerve wracking.
- Most of the full speed charging stations had lines and if we did the slow speed ones our entire weekend trip would be spent charging.
- Regenerative braking is cool till you’re going down hill in snow with all season tires. Then it’s a great way to lock up and slide. Thankfully I’m not a noob. (Also not that I expected winter tires from a rental, even in Boston, but cmon Hertz.)
My biggest takeaway is that if where we stayed had a charger for overnight charging it would have been fine. Without that it was undeniably worse than renting a gas car. We basically had to plan our days around the rental which is a bit insane. I don’t doubt that having one to whip around local with a charger at home would rule but for anything more than short drives I don’t think a rental electric makes sense.
>Rented Model Y. Show up and no Model Y.
I don't understand how this isn't considered fraud. If you try to cancel your trip, they want to charge a crazy fee, but if they don't have the car that you reserved, sorry maybe we can offer you another one. Rental car companies need a good lashing from a government regulator.
I don't understand how this isn't considered fraud. If you try to cancel your trip, they want to charge a crazy fee, but if they don't have the car that you reserved, sorry maybe we can offer you another one. Rental car companies need a good lashing from a government regulator.
Generally you don't rent a specific model, you rent a "So-and-so or similar". And undoubtedly the rental agreement specifically gives them permission to make substitutions. It's unlikely this scenario has not been fully mitigated by corporate legal and risk management.
As Jerry Seinfeld once said:
They know how to take the reservation. They just don't know how to hold the reservation.
They know how to take the reservation. They just don't know how to hold the reservation.
It's been a while since I've rented, but I assume this is covered in the agreement when you make a booking. I'd guess their butts are covered from the fraud perspective. Maybe misleading advertisement though?
> with snow
Isn’t the 3 and Y mostly equivalent, one just slightly larger? There is big difference in clearance, 2/4wd or anything else that would make them different in a cold climate drive? Or am I missing something?
Isn’t the 3 and Y mostly equivalent, one just slightly larger? There is big difference in clearance, 2/4wd or anything else that would make them different in a cold climate drive? Or am I missing something?
The story has been that Tesla is losing market share even as EV sales rise. Early adopters were happy to buy in to a truly unique experience with a funky-looking vehicle and a complete rethinking of interiors and controls. Meanwhile, Kia, Hyundai, VW are producing EVs that just kinda look and drive like normal cars and the bulk of market prefer that. And that's indirectly causing backlash on Hertz because the drop in prices is what killed the financially viability of their deal. This is less about EVs being a bust and more that they put all their eggs in one basket and forgot to keep them warm.
> Meanwhile, Kia, Hyundai, VW are producing EVs that just kinda look and drive like normal cars and the bulk of market prefer that.
Kia.com -> View Inventory -> within 50 miles:
EV9 = (263) 246 Available, 17 Arriving Soon
EV6 = (153) 151 Available, 2 Arriving Soon
Niro EV = (39) 38 Available, 1 Arriving Soon
They all have $XXXX discounts on them. I'm not sure the market is falling all over itself to buy them.
Kia.com -> View Inventory -> within 50 miles:
EV9 = (263) 246 Available, 17 Arriving Soon
EV6 = (153) 151 Available, 2 Arriving Soon
Niro EV = (39) 38 Available, 1 Arriving Soon
They all have $XXXX discounts on them. I'm not sure the market is falling all over itself to buy them.
I think Kia and Hyundai are dealing with reputation damage after their cars were so easy to steal for a couple years.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/04/business/hyundai-kia-thefts-i...
https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/04/business/hyundai-kia-thefts-i...
Its not completely true. Check their popular gas models like telluride etc, you still have to pay above MSRP or some crap accessories to get the cars. They are selling gas cars extremely well.
GP was talking about market share and you're talking about inventory. You may be right that GP is wrong, but the data you're sharing doesn't say one way or the other.
How’s the Tesla shipments going?
The industry saturated the market, which will lower the prices. People will buy them cheap. Market at work.
The industry saturated the market, which will lower the prices. People will buy them cheap. Market at work.
We're not at saturation exactly, sales are growing but growth has slowed and competition is much stronger. It's entirely possible Tesla has peaked and won't recover but that's speculation. I'm still confident EVs will be all or nearly all cars on the road in the near future but it's going to be more like 20-25 years than 10.
Personally, i think they’ll be 30-40% of cars.
I think we’re entering a trough where the artificial incentives start to lose their effect and we really figure out what the market needs and navigate the FUD as we “digest” some of the lousy early cars.
We’re still early in the market and tech breakthroughs make it unpredictable — Tesla’s survival is probably tied to delivering those.
I think we’re entering a trough where the artificial incentives start to lose their effect and we really figure out what the market needs and navigate the FUD as we “digest” some of the lousy early cars.
We’re still early in the market and tech breakthroughs make it unpredictable — Tesla’s survival is probably tied to delivering those.
The deciding factor is going to end being politics. Democrats will continue pushing mandates and Republicans will try to block or undo them.
I had an almost opposite experience and ended up buying a tesla a handful of months later when it was time for a car.
the UX was a bit of a pain at first and I didn't understand the regen braking, but I felt that I at least had menus instead of buttons with symbols in weird places. I have a theory that I'm not as good at remembering where my buttons are as other people because i've never thought twice about the buttons being on a screen instead.... I always have to glance at what i'm setting
All that said: I would never want to drive or own one of the teslas without the turn signal stalks on the steering wheel and all that.... just seems like asking for trouble
the UX was a bit of a pain at first and I didn't understand the regen braking, but I felt that I at least had menus instead of buttons with symbols in weird places. I have a theory that I'm not as good at remembering where my buttons are as other people because i've never thought twice about the buttons being on a screen instead.... I always have to glance at what i'm setting
All that said: I would never want to drive or own one of the teslas without the turn signal stalks on the steering wheel and all that.... just seems like asking for trouble
At one point I really thought that our next car would be a Tesla. So when Hertz had a Model 3 available after our Hyundai from Enterprise was stolen (yep Kiaboyz hack time), we tried it out.
We had similar UX issues. It's crazy. I'm all for a very clean interface, but the affordances for very basic functionality are limited. It started with just getting into the damn car. I felt like an idiot just trying to unlock the door. After we struggled for a few minutes we finally had to ask a Hertz attendant. Similarly, there were a lot of cabin controls which are buried in the touchscreen UI. Because I like to play with new toys, I was willing to take the time while parked to watch some videos and figure things out, but a Model 3 is not an easy car to just get in and drive without some prior knowledge. What's also kinda crazy is all the ways that things can be customized (e.g. one pedal driving). I wonder if Hertz resets any of this to the lowest common denominator after a rental?
Charging was a bit of a pain without access to charging at our hotel. There was a supercharger site not too far away, but sitting for 20-30 minutes in a mall parking lot is not my idea of fun. We definitely want our next car to be an EV, but only because we would install a charger in our garage. I'm still not sure I would make the EV choice without that.
I rented a Model 3 again another time, but through Turo, and had hardly any issues, but that's because of this prior experience.
These days, Elon Musk has turned into (or exposed himself to be?) such a nut job that I can't see buying a Tesla. It's very frustrating, because overall I still like the Model 3 better than most other EVs.
We had similar UX issues. It's crazy. I'm all for a very clean interface, but the affordances for very basic functionality are limited. It started with just getting into the damn car. I felt like an idiot just trying to unlock the door. After we struggled for a few minutes we finally had to ask a Hertz attendant. Similarly, there were a lot of cabin controls which are buried in the touchscreen UI. Because I like to play with new toys, I was willing to take the time while parked to watch some videos and figure things out, but a Model 3 is not an easy car to just get in and drive without some prior knowledge. What's also kinda crazy is all the ways that things can be customized (e.g. one pedal driving). I wonder if Hertz resets any of this to the lowest common denominator after a rental?
Charging was a bit of a pain without access to charging at our hotel. There was a supercharger site not too far away, but sitting for 20-30 minutes in a mall parking lot is not my idea of fun. We definitely want our next car to be an EV, but only because we would install a charger in our garage. I'm still not sure I would make the EV choice without that.
I rented a Model 3 again another time, but through Turo, and had hardly any issues, but that's because of this prior experience.
These days, Elon Musk has turned into (or exposed himself to be?) such a nut job that I can't see buying a Tesla. It's very frustrating, because overall I still like the Model 3 better than most other EVs.
I'm a bit confused about your difficulty with unlocking and driving off. The car should have unlocked itself upon approach, and all you would have needed to do to drive would be to swipe the always on part of the screen to drive. Was it not this way with the rental?
I don't own a Tesla and I'm not a fan of their extremely minimalist interior, but those two things should have at least been the easiest to do.
I don't own a Tesla and I'm not a fan of their extremely minimalist interior, but those two things should have at least been the easiest to do.
How does the car know it should unlock when approached by the right person but not a stranger? It has a Bluetooth connection to the phone. For a rental, the person renting probably doesn't have the Tesla app, and it's not obvious how to use the key card.
None of this is easy for a rental. They are only easy for a person who bought the car and owns it.
None of this is easy for a rental. They are only easy for a person who bought the car and owns it.
On my car the fobs auto unlock the car when approached, you don't need the phone app. There is nothing similar for Teslas? Just the backup card with it's oddities and your phone? Didn't they have that little toy car remote?
They do have that remote but since it doesn't come with the car, you can bet rental companies didn't pay extra to provide customers with that fob.
They give you a key card. Without some prior knowledge, try to figure out where to use the key card.
Putting it near the B-pillar is not the first or second things I tried. In retrospect given the RF nature of how NFC works, it makes sense that behind something non-metallic makes sense. I think I may have tried things near the edge of the windshield (didn't Zipcar work like that?).
Putting it near the B-pillar is not the first or second things I tried. In retrospect given the RF nature of how NFC works, it makes sense that behind something non-metallic makes sense. I think I may have tried things near the edge of the windshield (didn't Zipcar work like that?).
I think they only give you the card, so walkup unlock won't happen, at least before setting up a phone key.
> The UX of most of the basic car functions was much harder to learn than a typical rental car ...
Strange there is no voice control, I mean the car is smart enough it can drive itself .... right?
Strange there is no voice control, I mean the car is smart enough it can drive itself .... right?
There is voice control.
https://www.tesla.com/support/voice-commands
https://www.tesla.com/support/voice-commands
I don't want to use voice control to turn the wipers on or use my turn signals, and their radically different placement takes time getting used to.
I tried and failed to rent a Tesla from Hertz. Paid for the EV manager special, and got a crappy compact car instead.
> Charging to 100% cost me $7 but took 30 minutes of my time
Did you really charge to 100%? I guess people unfamiliar with Teslas aren't used to the idea of charging to 80-85% as a default
Did you really charge to 100%? I guess people unfamiliar with Teslas aren't used to the idea of charging to 80-85% as a default
If you’re renting F battery life.
> If you’re renting F battery life.
It’s a time issue.
The battery charges much faster when low on charge and slower when close to full charge.
I imagine the op was at 80% or more within 10 minutes or less.
My comment to people about teslas is that they will be disappointed if they try to drive it like an ICE car. It’s a different driving experience (e.g., you almost never want or need a “full tank”), and the good parts of EVs won’t be as noticeable if one doesn’t integrate those differences.
It’s a time issue.
The battery charges much faster when low on charge and slower when close to full charge.
I imagine the op was at 80% or more within 10 minutes or less.
My comment to people about teslas is that they will be disappointed if they try to drive it like an ICE car. It’s a different driving experience (e.g., you almost never want or need a “full tank”), and the good parts of EVs won’t be as noticeable if one doesn’t integrate those differences.
>It’s a different driving experience (e.g., you almost never want or need a “full tank”)
What does this even mean? I both want and need as much range as possible when I'm driving my rental car. I don't care about long-term battery degredation.
What does this even mean? I both want and need as much range as possible when I'm driving my rental car. I don't care about long-term battery degredation.
> I both want and need as much range as possible when I'm driving my rental car.
Do you really? If so, that’s either due to where you live or work (few charging stations) or you’re a relatively rare “cannonball run” type of driver.
On my model y, I can charge up to 60% or so, and I can drive for 2 hours to the next charging station (for long trips). After that, I want to stretch, take a short bio break, and get some food or something to drink. I will be back up to 60% or more by the time I’m done, and I am usually fast with my “pit stops”.
If you mostly drive short range local stuff, then it is very easy to charge when you do almost anything else — go out to eat, get coffee, shop for whatever. If you’re renting for business, then your hotel almost certainly has a charger that will charge you enough to get you around all day.
You pretty much have to construct a very unique set of circumstances to make it such that “always charging to full” is an important necessity.
> I don't care about long-term battery degredation.
As I said before, this is a time issue, not a battery degredation issue. Charging to full during the day (while you are waiting) is almost never necessary. Full charge overnight is fine — it costs you no time.
If your situation is so different, please tell me what your typical day is with regards to driving and refueling, and I will tell you what it could look like with a model y. It really won’t be a big difference in terms of time.
Do you really? If so, that’s either due to where you live or work (few charging stations) or you’re a relatively rare “cannonball run” type of driver.
On my model y, I can charge up to 60% or so, and I can drive for 2 hours to the next charging station (for long trips). After that, I want to stretch, take a short bio break, and get some food or something to drink. I will be back up to 60% or more by the time I’m done, and I am usually fast with my “pit stops”.
If you mostly drive short range local stuff, then it is very easy to charge when you do almost anything else — go out to eat, get coffee, shop for whatever. If you’re renting for business, then your hotel almost certainly has a charger that will charge you enough to get you around all day.
You pretty much have to construct a very unique set of circumstances to make it such that “always charging to full” is an important necessity.
> I don't care about long-term battery degredation.
As I said before, this is a time issue, not a battery degredation issue. Charging to full during the day (while you are waiting) is almost never necessary. Full charge overnight is fine — it costs you no time.
If your situation is so different, please tell me what your typical day is with regards to driving and refueling, and I will tell you what it could look like with a model y. It really won’t be a big difference in terms of time.
> My comment to people about teslas is that they will be disappointed if they try to drive it like an ICE car.
Why would renters drive it any differently to any other rental car?
> It’s a different driving experience
The only experience car renters want is reliable transport now. The car is not the primary objective, their destination is. Anything that degrades the journey to the destination is a turn off.
Why would renters drive it any differently to any other rental car?
> It’s a different driving experience
The only experience car renters want is reliable transport now. The car is not the primary objective, their destination is. Anything that degrades the journey to the destination is a turn off.
> Anything that degrades the journey to the destination is a turn off.
I didn’t say it is a degraded experience. It’s just different.
If someone feels like that’s a degraded experience, that’s an issue with them and their expectations rather than the car.
As a simple example, some folks hate the Tesla controls, especially the touch screen. That’s fine. I love those same controls. Most common actions can be handled by the stems, most of the others by voice, and a few others require touch screen. If these things get a person bent out of shape, then a Tesla isn’t for them, and that’s ok. It works perfectly for me and my tastes. It’s a matter of expectations.
I didn’t say it is a degraded experience. It’s just different.
If someone feels like that’s a degraded experience, that’s an issue with them and their expectations rather than the car.
As a simple example, some folks hate the Tesla controls, especially the touch screen. That’s fine. I love those same controls. Most common actions can be handled by the stems, most of the others by voice, and a few others require touch screen. If these things get a person bent out of shape, then a Tesla isn’t for them, and that’s ok. It works perfectly for me and my tastes. It’s a matter of expectations.
One last thing:
> If someone feels like that’s a degraded experience, that’s an issue with them and their expectations rather than the car.
The renter's expectation is that they just get in and drive to their destination. I don't think that that is an unreasonable expectation to have when renting a car.
OTOH, it is unreasonable to tell paying customers "you have to put in more effort and pay more if you want to be a customer"; the customers are just going to go elsewhere, where the business is being snobbish and using the "You're holding it wrong" response.
> If someone feels like that’s a degraded experience, that’s an issue with them and their expectations rather than the car.
The renter's expectation is that they just get in and drive to their destination. I don't think that that is an unreasonable expectation to have when renting a car.
OTOH, it is unreasonable to tell paying customers "you have to put in more effort and pay more if you want to be a customer"; the customers are just going to go elsewhere, where the business is being snobbish and using the "You're holding it wrong" response.
> I didn’t say it is a degraded experience. It’s just different.
Not for you, maybe, but adding extra steps to a task is a degradation for many people.
For most people, the extra 30m involved in renting a Tesla from Hertz vs a regular ICE car is an objective degradation in experience!
Hertz could have reduced the degradation by ensuring that all the Teslas left their lot fully charged. They could have allowed returns to be 50% charged.
They could have done lots of things to make the experience similar to an ICE car. They didn't.
Not for you, maybe, but adding extra steps to a task is a degradation for many people.
For most people, the extra 30m involved in renting a Tesla from Hertz vs a regular ICE car is an objective degradation in experience!
Hertz could have reduced the degradation by ensuring that all the Teslas left their lot fully charged. They could have allowed returns to be 50% charged.
They could have done lots of things to make the experience similar to an ICE car. They didn't.
> My comment to people about teslas is that they will be disappointed if they try to drive it like an ICE car
That kinda...tells the story of the article doesn't it? It's a pretty terrible rental experience if people will be disappointed if they try to drive it like the cars they're used to.
That kinda...tells the story of the article doesn't it? It's a pretty terrible rental experience if people will be disappointed if they try to drive it like the cars they're used to.
For charging speed you are right, the last 10% is at reduced rate. But, if I understand correctly, battery health is not depreciated with a 100% charge limit on Teslas with the newer battery composition that started sale in late 2022.
That's not universally true, both battery chemistries are in use and still being sold new (I believe the smaller batteries are using the new "100% safe" chemistry, while the long range variants are using the "keep the charge around 70-80%" chemistry.)
The car will alert you if it's not safe to charge frequently to 100% when you set the charge limit.
The car will alert you if it's not safe to charge frequently to 100% when you set the charge limit.
It is interesting that a bunch of finacial careeerists decided to jump on EVs without thinking - "Hey, we are going to need chargers as convenient as gas stations, or else people wont use them!".
In an alternative world, Hertz could have become _the_ EV rental company if they turned every rental office they have in the US to a fast charging center, and told customers "Look, just drive this thing and dont worry about returning it at a certain charge level". Such an action could have actually had a positive impact.
Instead they focussed on "technology that will automatically open the doors for the users, adjust their seats, adds their favorite playlist"... I mean... Darwinism and all.
In an alternative world, Hertz could have become _the_ EV rental company if they turned every rental office they have in the US to a fast charging center, and told customers "Look, just drive this thing and dont worry about returning it at a certain charge level". Such an action could have actually had a positive impact.
Instead they focussed on "technology that will automatically open the doors for the users, adjust their seats, adds their favorite playlist"... I mean... Darwinism and all.
They didn't even install chargers at their own parking lots. The end result is getting an EV from them would easily mean getting a flat battery if the previous driver didn't charge it or the car was in the lot for a while.
The cheese brains thought just having an EV on the lot was all that was needed and that they could charge ice prices for things like half filled batteries.
I drive an EV and would not rent one from Hertz.
The cheese brains thought just having an EV on the lot was all that was needed and that they could charge ice prices for things like half filled batteries.
I drive an EV and would not rent one from Hertz.
Comparing to the following, chargers might not be the biggest issue...
> Sometimes the kludgy system erroneously showed cars as missing, resulting in hundreds of innocent Hertz customers getting arrested on charges of stealing rentals they’d actually returned.
> Sometimes the kludgy system erroneously showed cars as missing, resulting in hundreds of innocent Hertz customers getting arrested on charges of stealing rentals they’d actually returned.
I got a plug-in hybrid from Hertz a month ago. Delivered with a full tank of gas an a 100% empty battery...
Good thing I noticed it and charged it with my own charger before going for a trip.
Good thing I noticed it and charged it with my own charger before going for a trip.
I'm a bit confused, isn't the point of a PHEV that the battery charge is optional?
Optional, but a full charge saves around $10 of gas depending on the PHEV.
How much does a full charge of electricity cost in order to save $10 of gas?
My Volvo XC60 costs about £1.50 to fully charge(at home) and easily saves ~£6 in fuel cost for the amount of miles you can cover. I drive daily and fill up every 2-3k miles on average, it's a massive saving over a regular car(for me anyway).
But even if it didn't save us any money, it's still worth charging as driving in EV mode is just such a luxurious experience, it's completely quiet inside and that's what elevates the whole experience. If you don't care about it, why buy/rent an PHEV in the first place lol.
But even if it didn't save us any money, it's still worth charging as driving in EV mode is just such a luxurious experience, it's completely quiet inside and that's what elevates the whole experience. If you don't care about it, why buy/rent an PHEV in the first place lol.
That is impossible to say in a general way but generally speaking: significantly less.
On our PHEV minivan, the electric range is ~30mi, and costs ~$1.50 in electricity (12 kWh usable, ~13c/kWh). On gas, it's ~$3. (30 mi/g, $3/g). Some places you'll save substantially more (cheaper electricity, more expensive gas) or less (vice versa).
On our PHEV minivan, the electric range is ~30mi, and costs ~$1.50 in electricity (12 kWh usable, ~13c/kWh). On gas, it's ~$3. (30 mi/g, $3/g). Some places you'll save substantially more (cheaper electricity, more expensive gas) or less (vice versa).
Sounds like you'd have to do 7 full PHEV battery cycles to save the upthread $10. (I'm pretty sure your math is correct and upthread claim is...optimistic.)
Spotted the Pacifica driver ;-)
And yeah the calculation varies, here in Québec it's about $1.20 CAD to charge it at home(10¢/kWh), and about twice that to charge it at a public L2 charger (1$/hour). I save about 4 liters of fuel with that. Fuel right now is ~1.60 so I end up saving around $5 everytime I charge.
Adds up pretty quick, and the vehicle is actually cheaper to purchase initially because of the government subsidies. Makes me wonder every time I see a gas Pacifica...
And yeah the calculation varies, here in Québec it's about $1.20 CAD to charge it at home(10¢/kWh), and about twice that to charge it at a public L2 charger (1$/hour). I save about 4 liters of fuel with that. Fuel right now is ~1.60 so I end up saving around $5 everytime I charge.
Adds up pretty quick, and the vehicle is actually cheaper to purchase initially because of the government subsidies. Makes me wonder every time I see a gas Pacifica...
Gas costs about 2€/litre here. So if we go by that, you'll get 5 litres for 10€. That'll take the average gasoline powered family car around 100km.
The current price for electricity is 0,07€/kWh. My car uses 15kWh per 100km on average, which costs me 1,05€.
That's 90% cheaper and as such a complete no-brainer on which to choose.
Same goes for PHEVs, driving on electric is just so much cheaper it's not even funny.
The current price for electricity is 0,07€/kWh. My car uses 15kWh per 100km on average, which costs me 1,05€.
That's 90% cheaper and as such a complete no-brainer on which to choose.
Same goes for PHEVs, driving on electric is just so much cheaper it's not even funny.
When your electricity costs 0,07€/kWh, I can see it being cheaper.
Mine is currently around ~0.45€/kWh which takes the shine off it quite a bit, and makes gas a much more appealing option.
Mine is currently around ~0.45€/kWh which takes the shine off it quite a bit, and makes gas a much more appealing option.
PHEVs tend to have 10-20 kWh batteries.
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I got a "free upgrade" from Enterprise to an EV with 20% remaining battery. I took it because I knew I had L2 spots at my hotel and wasn't driving much anyway.
So it's not just Hertz.
So it's not just Hertz.
pure greed
Doings this would deny the reality of the car rental customer. People don't rent cars to commute between their house and work, or to run errands around town. They are travelers. Either they are renting the vehicle to get from A to B during a vacation or such, or they are from out of town and need the vehicle to travel between the airport to the hotel/relative's house where they are staying. Neither of those groups will have ready access to chargers, nor do they want to drive all the way back to Hertz to charge the car.
Rental cars are just not a good match for EVs. The best are use cases involving repeated short trips to known locations such as mail/Amazon delivery, school busses and commuters. Suburbia is where EVs thrive, the land of owned private charging stations and routine short commutes. EVs are not suited for hurried tourists.
Rental cars are just not a good match for EVs. The best are use cases involving repeated short trips to known locations such as mail/Amazon delivery, school busses and commuters. Suburbia is where EVs thrive, the land of owned private charging stations and routine short commutes. EVs are not suited for hurried tourists.
Travelers are in a particularly poor position for charging. You're on a schedule, you don't have the accounts, you don't know where things are, you don't know how the car works, etc. But your latter group is a fine match for an EV. I'm not going to do 300 miles driving from the airport to the convention hotel and back. As long as you don't have to charge it before you bring it back, there's no problem.
I've done this before. Different country, car brand I've never seen, never even charged a car before. But my travel itinerary was less than the range, and it was fine. (I tried for fun to charge in a garage in Bruges; could not figure it out. Good thing I didn't need to.)
It's not appropriate for every rental, and there's some customer information and education requirements that are new because of that, but it's quite plausible to have a decent portion of a rental fleet be electric.
I've done this before. Different country, car brand I've never seen, never even charged a car before. But my travel itinerary was less than the range, and it was fine. (I tried for fun to charge in a garage in Bruges; could not figure it out. Good thing I didn't need to.)
It's not appropriate for every rental, and there's some customer information and education requirements that are new because of that, but it's quite plausible to have a decent portion of a rental fleet be electric.
When I rent a car, it's rare that I use more than a tank of gas or full charge. The only time I need to refuel is when I'm returning it to the rental company.
It’s not as practical for the rental company to deal with the car as a gas one though
I think you’re overestimating what most car rentals are used for. Often it someone that just got into an accident and needs a car while the body shop fixes the issue or they shop for a new car. As such it is driving to work or doing errands is common and an EV owner may simply prefer an EV.
Even for vacations you don’t really need level 2 chargers at most locations. A normal outlet can take a model 3 from near zero to full over a long weekend let alone a fast charger. Many camping stops even have RV hookups which are much faster.
Even for vacations you don’t really need level 2 chargers at most locations. A normal outlet can take a model 3 from near zero to full over a long weekend let alone a fast charger. Many camping stops even have RV hookups which are much faster.
Maybe I just have a warped view of the market. I use rental cars about a dozen times a year. Inevitably, I am picking up the car at the airport, at midnight, and then driving 100 miles to the place I need to be. In a few weeks I am going with a team to the UK. They have us landing at Heathrow, picking up five rental cars, and then driving three hours north. (That was deemed cheaper than a more direct flight.) There is absolutely no way I would accept EVs for this trip as I have zero confidence that we would have access to chargers. We normally end up fighting just to get our cellphones working properly. Paying for parking with an out-of-country credit card is bad enough. I don't want to attempt getting a charging station working after midnight, in the rain, after already spending a dozen hours on planes.
This was almost exactly my last UK rental car experience - something like 4 hours north (380 miles). For some reason I booked an electric car first, and then saw sense and changed my mind.
People claim that the UK is covered in chargers - but all the big ones seemed to be at least about 20 mins off of the motorway, then waiting to charge, then driving back to the motorway (burning up the charge to get there and back). On my holiday too, there's a long list of things I'd rather be doing.
I was there last week too (not driving) and I saw so many 'chargers' in public car parks that were just either covered up or needed some specific app to work - no way to use a credit card.
The whole thing is improving and if you had a house in which you could fit a proper charger then owning an electric car wouldn't be too bad, but actually renting one and driving it on a long trip - no way. It's not specifically the UK either, I'd say the same for most places I've been in and had a need to rent a car.
People claim that the UK is covered in chargers - but all the big ones seemed to be at least about 20 mins off of the motorway, then waiting to charge, then driving back to the motorway (burning up the charge to get there and back). On my holiday too, there's a long list of things I'd rather be doing.
I was there last week too (not driving) and I saw so many 'chargers' in public car parks that were just either covered up or needed some specific app to work - no way to use a credit card.
The whole thing is improving and if you had a house in which you could fit a proper charger then owning an electric car wouldn't be too bad, but actually renting one and driving it on a long trip - no way. It's not specifically the UK either, I'd say the same for most places I've been in and had a need to rent a car.
Teslas don’t have issues with superchargers, they’re billed straight to Hertz and reflected on your final bill. They’re everywhere.
>> They’re everywhere.
Lol. Maybe in the UK or California. Google maps tells me the nearest Tesla charger to my apartment is 114 miles away, as the crow flies.
Lol. Maybe in the UK or California. Google maps tells me the nearest Tesla charger to my apartment is 114 miles away, as the crow flies.
You only need high speed charging on a long trip at which point having one by your house is useless.
Pick somewhere 1000 miles away then see how long going several super chargers adds to the trip. They are along interstates, that’s ‘everywhere’ in the US when you actually need one.
Pick somewhere 1000 miles away then see how long going several super chargers adds to the trip. They are along interstates, that’s ‘everywhere’ in the US when you actually need one.
> Then driving 100 miles to the place I need to be.
Driving 100 miles in an EV isn’t even close to needing a recharge. The UK is covered in chargers and 3 hours is again fine on a single charge for any decent EV. So what exactly is your concern here?
Driving 100 miles in an EV isn’t even close to needing a recharge. The UK is covered in chargers and 3 hours is again fine on a single charge for any decent EV. So what exactly is your concern here?
Three hours and the cars will be nearly dead. And the hotel will not have a charger, not for all of us. So we are going to be up all night at commercial chargers, reducing our sleep time before our first meetings from a few hours to zero. And that is if we can find working commercial chargers. The UK is notorious for needing various apps for parking/charging. The headaches are just not worth our time. Maybe if we were on vacation, but this os work.
UK national speed limit is 70, 75 MPH * 3h is only 220 miles so hardly nearly dead.
Not having a full charge or renting something with an anemic range might be an issue if the rental place isn’t handing you a fully charged long range car that’s on them not the technology.
Not having a full charge or renting something with an anemic range might be an issue if the rental place isn’t handing you a fully charged long range car that’s on them not the technology.
Surely cars are rented far, far more often for travel reasons than car repair reasons.
I think I've only ever rented a car for car repair [mechanical or body] reasons once, at that was a mechanical breakdown while I was about 350 miles from home, so I had to leave it at a shop and rent a car to continue the trip. Meanwhile, I've rented cars almost once a month for business or personal travel reasons.
I think I've only ever rented a car for car repair [mechanical or body] reasons once, at that was a mechanical breakdown while I was about 350 miles from home, so I had to leave it at a shop and rent a car to continue the trip. Meanwhile, I've rented cars almost once a month for business or personal travel reasons.
There’s 6.1 million police reported vehicle accidents in the US each year with most involving more than 1 vehicles. Average to say 1 car for 1.5 weeks for 6 million accidents which then cluster around snowstorms etc and you easily need 200,000+ rental cars just for that purpose.
But let’s take your use case, how many of those involved driving more than 300 miles per day? Or even total?
But let’s take your use case, how many of those involved driving more than 300 miles per day? Or even total?
US passenger embarkations are around 800 million per year. For business travelers, that's likely a car rental per 4 flights maximum (most of mine are one rental per two flights). For leisure travel, it might be one per 10 flights (families probably rent only one car and might be more willing to take connecting flights to save money). I think these are orders of magnitude more common in use case than car repair related rentals.
> But let’s take your use case, how many of those involved driving more than 300 miles per day? Or even total?
Less than 10% of them. We would sometimes fly into one city and drive around a country or into Fort Lauderdale, rent a car, drive to Key West, and make our way back over the following week. But even if I don't drive more than an EV's range, I would still need to be certain that the EV left Hertz fully charged and that Hertz was OK with me bringing it back empty. The former sure doesn't seem to be happening based on discussions in this page and if they allow the latter, the former becomes harder to ensure.
(I daily drive an EV, have for almost a decade, and love it. Even I don't want to rent an EV when I travel.)
> But let’s take your use case, how many of those involved driving more than 300 miles per day? Or even total?
Less than 10% of them. We would sometimes fly into one city and drive around a country or into Fort Lauderdale, rent a car, drive to Key West, and make our way back over the following week. But even if I don't drive more than an EV's range, I would still need to be certain that the EV left Hertz fully charged and that Hertz was OK with me bringing it back empty. The former sure doesn't seem to be happening based on discussions in this page and if they allow the latter, the former becomes harder to ensure.
(I daily drive an EV, have for almost a decade, and love it. Even I don't want to rent an EV when I travel.)
Hertz completely fucked up renting an EV. There’s zero question about that, but pick one up at 80+% bring it back at 5% should definitely be the plan to pull it off successfully. If you can’t guarantee the car is mostly charged I’m not going to rent an EV.
> per 4 flights
> it might be one per 10 flights.
Both of those seem like massive overestimates to me. I’ve flown for business and pleasure and never rented a car after flying. My sister probably does 100 flights a year and rents a car once or twice when traveling with her husband. I know plenty of people who’ve completely given up on renting a car on vacation.
Uber or public transit is just far less of a hassle, and when visiting family why have a car? Run the numbers for 1.5 hour long Uber ride vs 4 day car rental and you might as well just relax.
Further most travelers aren’t going to rent for as long. Few business travelers are going to use a car for a full week but repairs or finding a new car takes a while.
> per 4 flights
> it might be one per 10 flights.
Both of those seem like massive overestimates to me. I’ve flown for business and pleasure and never rented a car after flying. My sister probably does 100 flights a year and rents a car once or twice when traveling with her husband. I know plenty of people who’ve completely given up on renting a car on vacation.
Uber or public transit is just far less of a hassle, and when visiting family why have a car? Run the numbers for 1.5 hour long Uber ride vs 4 day car rental and you might as well just relax.
Further most travelers aren’t going to rent for as long. Few business travelers are going to use a car for a full week but repairs or finding a new car takes a while.
PS: In support of my point compare the relatively tiny space for rentals at airports with the vast number of people parking their cars, going through loading or unloading from public transport, cabs, or people picking them up / dropping them off.
In your model there should be what 1/2 the people at an airport taking a rental at their destination and the other half being at home. When instead it’s closer to 1/50th, which granted is still lots of people just far less.
In your model there should be what 1/2 the people at an airport taking a rental at their destination and the other half being at home. When instead it’s closer to 1/50th, which granted is still lots of people just far less.
> I think you’re overestimating what most car rentals are used for.
The fact that most large international airports, worldwide, have absolutely huge car rental operations on site, along with partnerships with airlines, hotels and such, to me suggests something different.
The fact that most large international airports, worldwide, have absolutely huge car rental operations on site, along with partnerships with airlines, hotels and such, to me suggests something different.
The vast major of rental locations are far from airports and there’s vastly more people leaving using public transportation/Uber/someone picking them up at every airport I’ve been to.
So sure many people use rentals at airports, but the overall business model looks very different.
So sure many people use rentals at airports, but the overall business model looks very different.
They also should have made deals with hotels. When I travel for business, I’m not going to allow for delays for finding and waiting for charging stations. They should have made a deal with Hampton Inn. Hertz kept trying to push EVs on me and I kept asking where I would charge them and the clerks had no idea.
>In an alternative world, Hertz could have become _the_ EV rental company if they turned every rental office they have in the US to a fast charging center, and told customers "Look, just drive this thing and dont worry about returning it at a certain charge level". Such an action could have actually had a positive impact.
I think you just demonstrated exactly the thinking that got them into trouble. EV rental business, turns out, has superficial benefits, but major underlying issues. They failed because of the basic economics of EV rentals: maintenance costs and depreciation. Also, there are massive challenges with building out a charging network as well. And yes, they pretty much have to give the option to customers to not return car fully charged, especially business customers. For business, taking 15 minutes to tank up is reason enough to overpay for the option to not do that, and that's 15 minutes - for EVs, charging up is a 3 hour exercise. Who would sit at a charging station for 3 hours (so now you need to be 5-6 hours before your flight at the airport?)?
>Instead they focussed on "technology that will automatically open the doors for the users, adjust their seats, adds their favorite playlist"... I mean
They didn't fail because of that.
I think you just demonstrated exactly the thinking that got them into trouble. EV rental business, turns out, has superficial benefits, but major underlying issues. They failed because of the basic economics of EV rentals: maintenance costs and depreciation. Also, there are massive challenges with building out a charging network as well. And yes, they pretty much have to give the option to customers to not return car fully charged, especially business customers. For business, taking 15 minutes to tank up is reason enough to overpay for the option to not do that, and that's 15 minutes - for EVs, charging up is a 3 hour exercise. Who would sit at a charging station for 3 hours (so now you need to be 5-6 hours before your flight at the airport?)?
>Instead they focussed on "technology that will automatically open the doors for the users, adjust their seats, adds their favorite playlist"... I mean
They didn't fail because of that.
A 3 hour charge is pretty far out of the norm in the modern world. Most EVs will go from 20-80% in 20 minutes or so if you're at a reasonably modern fast charger.
I think a big part of the problem is that Hertz did a terrible job of instructing people new to EVs about the quirks of the platform. Charging to 100% is almost never necessary or even a good idea. It takes so much time that you're better off just making one more charging stop instead. The built-in computer in the cars is excellent at figuring out where to charge and even does stuff like pre-warm the batteries right before you arrive to make the charging go as smoothly as possible. But of course if Hertz doesn't tell you this you instead have a panic attack as you suddenly realize you have no idea how to find a charger in your area. It doesn't help that there are two competing standards currently so you have to know which kind of plug your car has and where the available chargers are. Of course the on-board computer has all of that information, assuming you know to ask.
Given how many stories there are of people wandering around looking for chargers, it is clear that Hertz did a terrible job of informing customers of how their cars worked.
I think a big part of the problem is that Hertz did a terrible job of instructing people new to EVs about the quirks of the platform. Charging to 100% is almost never necessary or even a good idea. It takes so much time that you're better off just making one more charging stop instead. The built-in computer in the cars is excellent at figuring out where to charge and even does stuff like pre-warm the batteries right before you arrive to make the charging go as smoothly as possible. But of course if Hertz doesn't tell you this you instead have a panic attack as you suddenly realize you have no idea how to find a charger in your area. It doesn't help that there are two competing standards currently so you have to know which kind of plug your car has and where the available chargers are. Of course the on-board computer has all of that information, assuming you know to ask.
Given how many stories there are of people wandering around looking for chargers, it is clear that Hertz did a terrible job of informing customers of how their cars worked.
The problem is these companies ask you to return the car at at least 70%. Or levy a 20-30 dollar charging fee. So that only leaves say 10% of margin between the optimal charging level (80%) and the minimum level at return. I won't want to take the risk of being charged a charging fee and so will instead try to over-charge.
I am ok if they charge reasonable rates (like say $2 per 10% of battery) for the recharge. But that's not what they do.
I am ok if they charge reasonable rates (like say $2 per 10% of battery) for the recharge. But that's not what they do.
>Given how many stories there are of people wandering around looking for chargers, it is clear that Hertz did a terrible job of informing customers of how their cars worked.
If that was the core issue, that's solvable. They didn't fail because of that either.
If that was the core issue, that's solvable. They didn't fail because of that either.
> They failed because of the basic economics of EV rentals: maintenance costs and depreciation
That sounds like a Tesla problem, not an EV problem.
There's no particular need for body work on an EV to be particularly expensive, and the depreciation issue is from Tesla changing their new prices.
That sounds like a Tesla problem, not an EV problem.
There's no particular need for body work on an EV to be particularly expensive, and the depreciation issue is from Tesla changing their new prices.
They did think about it and that was their plan? It would be helpful not to strawman arguments that can be directly refute by reading the article.
It didn't work out because of real world execution is harder than just saying that they are going to do it.
It didn't work out because of real world execution is harder than just saying that they are going to do it.
> Hertz could have become the EV rental company if they turned every rental office they have in the US to a fast charging center
They did build out fast charging – but at some locations, the local electric utility couldn't support it:
> While the company had installed its own charging network as part of the electrification push that started in 2021, some older airports, such as New Jersey’s Newark, don’t get enough power from the electricity grid or lack the infrastructure to support the number of so-called Superchargers that Hertz needed to get EVs back on the road in a half-hour or less. Once a Tesla was returned to those locations, Hertz employees often had to drive them for miles to find a Supercharger[…]
The image of Hertz staff driving around Jersey, searching for an open supercharger any time a Tesla needed a fast turnaround … tragicomedy.
I would think that only a gradual pilot rollout of Tesla rentals could have saved this from getting out of hand. Instead they ordered 100,000 full-price Teslas, and congratulated themselves on getting a lock on a market … a market which proved to be much smaller and more expensive to serve than they'd imagined.
They did build out fast charging – but at some locations, the local electric utility couldn't support it:
> While the company had installed its own charging network as part of the electrification push that started in 2021, some older airports, such as New Jersey’s Newark, don’t get enough power from the electricity grid or lack the infrastructure to support the number of so-called Superchargers that Hertz needed to get EVs back on the road in a half-hour or less. Once a Tesla was returned to those locations, Hertz employees often had to drive them for miles to find a Supercharger[…]
The image of Hertz staff driving around Jersey, searching for an open supercharger any time a Tesla needed a fast turnaround … tragicomedy.
I would think that only a gradual pilot rollout of Tesla rentals could have saved this from getting out of hand. Instead they ordered 100,000 full-price Teslas, and congratulated themselves on getting a lock on a market … a market which proved to be much smaller and more expensive to serve than they'd imagined.
In the real world, commercial fleets (lease cars, uber drivers, delivery vans, buses, and increasingly trucks, etc.) are electrifying very rapidly. Reason: the economics have proven to be better. That debate was over years ago and it was very brief. Most car leasing companies are pretty much done switching to EVs at this point. TCO is way better for them. The market is bottle-necked on production volume. There is no demand problem for EVs at the right price point. Of course there are some manufacturers unable to meet those price points. And there are lots of attractively priced products in the market now.
What went wrong with Tesla and Hertz relates to poor financial planning, poor execution combined with a Tesla specific problem of poor repairability. All of that is fixable. But maybe Teslas aren't the ideal vehicle for this. Having driven rentals, people using their bumpers for bumping into things is something that is a given. When those bumpers are really expensive to repair/replace, you have a problem.
Charging infrastructure is actually a minor issue. The real issue is drivers having to figure things out for the first time in a rental car. That pain is easily offset by the low cost of charging. But of course you have to make that matter for the user and really deliver on that.
Hertz made a mistake there by not just including that in the rental price. Just plug it in and don't worry about it. Electricity is cheap and Hertz is charging a premium so what are we talking about here? They should have just done a deal with Tesla on this. Tesla actually used to do include free charging and it helped them grow their customer base enormously. Don't worry about returning the car with a charge either. Herz can plug it in while they clean the vehicle. And so what if it isn't at 100% charge? Probably better for the battery if it isn't. This is both simple to do and it totally removes charging as a friction point because it is cheap, easy, hassle free and there's no pressure to top it up.
What went wrong with Tesla and Hertz relates to poor financial planning, poor execution combined with a Tesla specific problem of poor repairability. All of that is fixable. But maybe Teslas aren't the ideal vehicle for this. Having driven rentals, people using their bumpers for bumping into things is something that is a given. When those bumpers are really expensive to repair/replace, you have a problem.
Charging infrastructure is actually a minor issue. The real issue is drivers having to figure things out for the first time in a rental car. That pain is easily offset by the low cost of charging. But of course you have to make that matter for the user and really deliver on that.
Hertz made a mistake there by not just including that in the rental price. Just plug it in and don't worry about it. Electricity is cheap and Hertz is charging a premium so what are we talking about here? They should have just done a deal with Tesla on this. Tesla actually used to do include free charging and it helped them grow their customer base enormously. Don't worry about returning the car with a charge either. Herz can plug it in while they clean the vehicle. And so what if it isn't at 100% charge? Probably better for the battery if it isn't. This is both simple to do and it totally removes charging as a friction point because it is cheap, easy, hassle free and there's no pressure to top it up.
The article says they tried to do exactly this but many of their largest locations (like Newark-Liberty International Airport) didn't have the infrastructure to accommodate that.
That said, many Hertz locations do have way more chargers than they did before starting this gambit.
That said, many Hertz locations do have way more chargers than they did before starting this gambit.
I disagree. The problem with Hertz is I primarily interact when them after flying. They’re always at some terribly inconvenient lot near the airport that takes a long time to get too.
That is normal with most companies at most airports in my experience, (in major cities in the US). Phoenix was nice because it had a train from the terminal to the rental lots, but usually IME it's a shuttle bus .
I'm not sure the last time I flew into a US city of any size that you didn't have to take a bus or other transport to the rental car center.
No, because the first lesson in bankruptcy clearly didn't Darwinize any of them manage by numbers, 1-2-3 peeps...(easy as a,b,c - thank you Sting) ;-)
I wonder how much they paid Tom Brady to be their spokesperson. They decided to market their EVs by just having a celebrity act cool/funny. Not by, you know, telling the customer why it's a good value, or why to choose their vehicles/service, or any positive aspects of their business. No, their strategy was to just push out commercials where Tom Brady would do something stupid/funny like have a power cable plugged into him, to promote EVs. It's so baffling to me that that is the strategy of a multi-billion dollar corporation. It's also depressing to think that it probably does work on at least some portion of the population. But apparently not nearly enough.
I don't necessarily see a link to the advertising and the borkedness of this rollout.
After all, commercials are very often just like this. Sadly, a vast majority of people have no interest in real information, and to be fair, the main purpose of a commercial is to stick the brand in mind.
And as memory is amplified by emotion, humour helps.
The real problem is range anxiety I think. PHEV is what we need now, as a transition path. With one, people can plug in for almost all uses, and still be OK if surprise usage means they won't have charge.
Other comments in this thread highlight this. Primary, because when traveling you have no idea about the local infra.
Where can you charge? What companies are cost effective? What hotels support charging, and for real, not just saying so on their website.. but only having one or two of them?
When you travel, all the knowledge which makes EV usage at home easier, are gone.
And so Hertz should have done PHEV.
After all, commercials are very often just like this. Sadly, a vast majority of people have no interest in real information, and to be fair, the main purpose of a commercial is to stick the brand in mind.
And as memory is amplified by emotion, humour helps.
The real problem is range anxiety I think. PHEV is what we need now, as a transition path. With one, people can plug in for almost all uses, and still be OK if surprise usage means they won't have charge.
Other comments in this thread highlight this. Primary, because when traveling you have no idea about the local infra.
Where can you charge? What companies are cost effective? What hotels support charging, and for real, not just saying so on their website.. but only having one or two of them?
When you travel, all the knowledge which makes EV usage at home easier, are gone.
And so Hertz should have done PHEV.
Do you know why there aren't any PHEVs with a more reasonable electric range? Something like a 100 mile range with backup gas tank would let my family do most of our driving on the electric battery while still being a usable car for roadtrips. But nothing like that seems to exist.
They ae improving, as battery tech improves. Some now boast almost 70 miles, whereas 35 miles was common a decade ago.
This is such a terrible take. In any market with Chicken or Egg problem, someone needs to move first. Sure, they could have been more conservative in their approach (easy to see in hindsight), but to say they jumped in "without thinking" is pure nonsense.
I did a rented EV roadtrip in Norway and it was amazing with a Citroen e-c4.
But Norway is probably one of the most saturated with chargers, and i still almost had to call service at some point because i went to zero, a bit nerve wrecking.
This was because there is so many different apps and 20% do not work for foreigners, then 10% just don't work for anyone - so eventually you'll experience a small city where you can't charge, then have to re-route, and if that city also isn't working or isn't providing service then things can get tight.
I'll say we are very close, but the "signing up for 10 different services" and following instructions on so many chargers, giving no service to foreigners because of some weird banking setup is what makes it not feasible yet.
I could manage because im an IT pro, i couldn't imagine my mom figuring this stuff out.
All chargers should have the same system by law, just beep your credit card and it starts charging, instead of requiring you to sign up through brittle interfaces in some weird app with bad cell service.
I skipped the Tesla because it seemed cheap inside, had no speedometer (this is so weird), and the buttons on the steering wheel would drive me crazy, the Citroen was great though!
But Norway is probably one of the most saturated with chargers, and i still almost had to call service at some point because i went to zero, a bit nerve wrecking.
This was because there is so many different apps and 20% do not work for foreigners, then 10% just don't work for anyone - so eventually you'll experience a small city where you can't charge, then have to re-route, and if that city also isn't working or isn't providing service then things can get tight.
I'll say we are very close, but the "signing up for 10 different services" and following instructions on so many chargers, giving no service to foreigners because of some weird banking setup is what makes it not feasible yet.
I could manage because im an IT pro, i couldn't imagine my mom figuring this stuff out.
All chargers should have the same system by law, just beep your credit card and it starts charging, instead of requiring you to sign up through brittle interfaces in some weird app with bad cell service.
I skipped the Tesla because it seemed cheap inside, had no speedometer (this is so weird), and the buttons on the steering wheel would drive me crazy, the Citroen was great though!
You don't even have to be a foreigner: when friends come over and ask where to charge it's a total crapshoot whether or not their passes and/or apps'll work (this is NL). I don't understand why they don't just let users swipe with any old payment card. Why does payment need to be more complicated than filling up with gasoline?
The EU AFIR regulation requires that, for any publicly accessible charging points installed after 13th of April 2024, adhoc recharging must be possible using a payment card or other commonly-used payment instrument.
So, kind of cold comfort for existing ones, but this should sort itself out over the next few years.
So, kind of cold comfort for existing ones, but this should sort itself out over the next few years.
>had no speedometer (this is so weird)
My Toyota has both a dial speedometer [hidden behind right hand/wheel], and a large numeric speed display that is easily-viewable. Unfortuneately, if there is any status update (e.g. cruise control, low gas) then the numeric speed digits disappear (replaced with whatever status/issue) — at which point I then no longer know how fast I'm going.
Fortunately, I believe both infotainment displays are running an open Linux distro — perhaps the numeric speedometer can be made permanent?
My Toyota has both a dial speedometer [hidden behind right hand/wheel], and a large numeric speed display that is easily-viewable. Unfortuneately, if there is any status update (e.g. cruise control, low gas) then the numeric speed digits disappear (replaced with whatever status/issue) — at which point I then no longer know how fast I'm going.
Fortunately, I believe both infotainment displays are running an open Linux distro — perhaps the numeric speedometer can be made permanent?
It's weird to me that you have to get 60% of the way through the article before it unveils the seemingly obvious problem with Teslas, or really any EVs, as rental cars...charging. One of the major appeals of an EV is that you can charge it at home, a benefit that you don't have when you're traveling. And for now at least, hunting down a gas station in an unfamiliar area is easier and more comfortable for most people than hunting down a charging spot.
That is not true for Tesla which automatically routes via charging stations when necessary. Tesla has an exceptionally good implementation that even re-routes drivers when chargers are busy, and they have top notch reliability.
There’s no hunting involved, you go where the nav tells you.
There’s no hunting involved, you go where the nav tells you.
It's not so much that chargers are hard to find, whether Tesla or otherwise, it's that they're less common and may or may not be convenient to where you're staying or where you're driving while you're on your trip. If I was going to travel somewhere and rent an EV, I'd at least look on Google maps first to see where the chargers were, something I've never felt the need to do when renting a gas car.
This isn't an insurmountable problem, but most people don't like any additional uncertainty when traveling and that extra little bit of friction is probably enough to make travelers want gas powered cars. But I can also see that changing over time as more chargers come on line and especially if hotels start becoming reliable charging destinations. If I could rent an EV and charge at my hotel, that's way more convenient than looking for a gas station.
This isn't an insurmountable problem, but most people don't like any additional uncertainty when traveling and that extra little bit of friction is probably enough to make travelers want gas powered cars. But I can also see that changing over time as more chargers come on line and especially if hotels start becoming reliable charging destinations. If I could rent an EV and charge at my hotel, that's way more convenient than looking for a gas station.
When I road trip with my EV, I prioritize hotels with chargers. While it's getting better, there really is no guarantee a hotel has a charger or that it's functional.
Or that even if it has a charger and it is functional that it won't be already in use or blocked by a regular car. I've had all of those happen before and it really is a crappy idea to rely on chargers in hotels. The only one this has worked at really well was a very posh hotel in Yorkshire that had a valet, I asked if they can charge my car and they did, the car was fully charged the following morning when they brought it out - but that's a place where the entire charging situation is managed by the hotel, so they knew how to do this and I didn't have to worry about it. I guess once you throw enough money at a problem it's "easy".
I travel a fair amount to mid-sized and smaller towns in the midwest. I've never seen an EV charger at a hotel. And in larger cities, hotel parking is often by valet.
I'm in the West and it's surprisingly easy to find hotels with chargers. Granted, they tend to be hotels like the Hilton or Marriott.
Some states are generally just better about it as well. Nevada, in particular, has pretty excellent charge infrastructure in remote locations.
Some states are generally just better about it as well. Nevada, in particular, has pretty excellent charge infrastructure in remote locations.
>Tesla which automatically routes via charging stations
That's only true in certain situations: longer trips with superchargers. If you are renting a Tesla for a trip across the country, you're probably golden. If you're renting it for bopping around a city, it's not going to work as you propose. Even if there's a convenient Supercharger, you're likely to be doing enough short trips that you never trigger it to hit a supercharger.
On longer trips though: the Supercharger experience has been exceptional.
For reference: I've had a Tesla since 2016. Just last weekend I was in "the big city" coming home, and turned on navigation and it told me "You don't have enough charge to make it", and I had to do "navigate to supercharger" instead.
That's only true in certain situations: longer trips with superchargers. If you are renting a Tesla for a trip across the country, you're probably golden. If you're renting it for bopping around a city, it's not going to work as you propose. Even if there's a convenient Supercharger, you're likely to be doing enough short trips that you never trigger it to hit a supercharger.
On longer trips though: the Supercharger experience has been exceptional.
For reference: I've had a Tesla since 2016. Just last weekend I was in "the big city" coming home, and turned on navigation and it told me "You don't have enough charge to make it", and I had to do "navigate to supercharger" instead.
I don’t want an exceptional experience recharging a car. I want a mundane experience. Just like a gas station is.
Whenever EV drivers describe their 'charging experiences', all I hear is ordeals, whether they think it was positive or negative.
It could be so simple: side payment card and done, with the only worry being the power output. (Still a worry that gasoline doesn't have, but OK, I understand that that's a fact of this infrastructure.)
I'm not going to be interested until I am not required to install random proprietary apps on my phone to charge, but I can just use my payment card.
It could be so simple: side payment card and done, with the only worry being the power output. (Still a worry that gasoline doesn't have, but OK, I understand that that's a fact of this infrastructure.)
I'm not going to be interested until I am not required to install random proprietary apps on my phone to charge, but I can just use my payment card.
So much this. Requiring an app (be it on a phone or on the car) to use a charger instead of just accepting a credit/debit card is a huge problem.
And that's Tesla. I don't even have to use a payment card, I just pull up and plug in. No drama, no fuss.
With my Ford, I don't need an app or a card. There are also chargers that exclusively use cards.
Weird to make this complaint in an article about Teslas, when their charging stations work exactly as you hope. You just pull up, plug in, and leave when you're done. Nothing to install or log in or add payment details.
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Ok, let's compare experiences:
Gas: I'm driving West across the state of Colorado, I'm on I-70 in the mountains, with 2 other vehicles, they get dramatically longer range than I do. I can see 1-2 miles most of the time. My car tells me it's range, but I have no idea where the upcoming petro stations are, I just know that they're going to be "pretty frequent". So at 50 miles I start looking for a station. I pull off, I might have to wait, but usually no more than a few minutes, usually not. I have to mess around with the credit card reader. It's the better part of $100.
Tesla: I tell the car my destination and it tells me where I'm going to stop to charge and for how long. I pull up, I might have to wait but usually not. I plug in. It's free.
Which one is the ordeal?
Gas: I'm driving West across the state of Colorado, I'm on I-70 in the mountains, with 2 other vehicles, they get dramatically longer range than I do. I can see 1-2 miles most of the time. My car tells me it's range, but I have no idea where the upcoming petro stations are, I just know that they're going to be "pretty frequent". So at 50 miles I start looking for a station. I pull off, I might have to wait, but usually no more than a few minutes, usually not. I have to mess around with the credit card reader. It's the better part of $100.
Tesla: I tell the car my destination and it tells me where I'm going to stop to charge and for how long. I pull up, I might have to wait but usually not. I plug in. It's free.
Which one is the ordeal?
The one where the Tesla's battery system is miscalibrated and you run out of power three miles from the charging station it was routing you to. I'm a happy EV owner, but I'll never rent one again.
Meanwhile, to be fair, you don't need satnav to get to a gas station -- I-70 has signs a mile or two before every exit telling you which gas stations there are, just like the rest of the interstate system. I'd like to see another blue sign with charging stations, and which businesses you can relax in while you charge!
Meanwhile, to be fair, you don't need satnav to get to a gas station -- I-70 has signs a mile or two before every exit telling you which gas stations there are, just like the rest of the interstate system. I'd like to see another blue sign with charging stations, and which businesses you can relax in while you charge!
While the number of miles it shows for range is wildly inaccurate on the highway, the navigation does not seem to be impacted by that. When I've been unable to make the next charger, it has warned me a good hour ahead of time, and slowing down by 10-20 MPH has given me the range I needed. I've never run out before hitting a charging station.
I'm in agreement that I think they are terrible for most rental car needs.
I'm in agreement that I think they are terrible for most rental car needs.
Nav systems have been able to get you to gas stations for ages?
If you say so, seems plausible but I haven't seen one.
But, back to the point, where's the ordeal in the Tesla experience?
But, back to the point, where's the ordeal in the Tesla experience?
I've been driving across Europe for decades now, and I have not even once worried about not finding a fuel station on time. Even without nav each most highway stations have a sign stating the distance to the next one, so if you like the excitement of nearly running out you can, but otherwise you just fill up pretty much whenever. The term 'range anxiety' hasn't come into our vocabulary until electric cars for a reason I think: it just wasn't there.
In a very distant past the only worry might've been if I had enough cash currency of the country I was currently in.
In a very distant past the only worry might've been if I had enough cash currency of the country I was currently in.
It's a bit different in the US, there are areas where they have signs up saying "X miles to next services" because of 50+ mile stretches without stations. I distinctly remember years ago trying to figure out how fast I could go across a section of Montana without running out of fuel between stations, so it's not entirely unheard of hear to have "range anxiety".
There are some stretches of 100+ km sans fuel stations in Europe too. It still isn't a problem, since you simply don't need to drive as much near the end of your projected range as you will in an electric car.
Gas: I enter my destination into Google/Apple Maps, see my range, and pick a station along the way, preferably before I run out of gas.
Excluding Costco, I’ve waited at a gas station maybe 5 times in 15 years of driving across the US and in the world.
Excluding Costco, I’ve waited at a gas station maybe 5 times in 15 years of driving across the US and in the world.
Electrify America chargers work like this.
> I don’t want an exceptional experience recharging a car. I want a mundane experience. Just like a gas station is.
I understand that but you won't get there by expecting it day one. These things take time.
It's amazing to me the Tesla was able to roll out the best and most ubiquitous charging network in the US despite being a newcomer in a field that had absolutely no guarantee of catching on any time soon.
I understand that but you won't get there by expecting it day one. These things take time.
It's amazing to me the Tesla was able to roll out the best and most ubiquitous charging network in the US despite being a newcomer in a field that had absolutely no guarantee of catching on any time soon.
In Norway we have more chargers in the big cities and fewer out in the country side or up in the mountains. This means that if you rented an electric car for your Easter holidays and drove up to the mountains like a lot of other people do then you would be routed to a charger with 20 cars in line to charge in front of you.
I’m guessing the problem here is that Hertz didn’t have chargers. I rented and EV was allowed to return the car with 10% battery. The rental, I assume, had a charger on site. It was a super great experience. I would not use hertz if I had to charge the car upon return, and I say this is a Tesla owner knowing how the charging navigation works
But it still takes time, more so than a petrol car - and when you rent a car, that's exactly what you are paying for.
It's fine if that time is while you are asleep, or at your destination - but the last thing I wanted to do when returning the car before a flight would be to wait for ~30 mins for the thing to charge up, no matter where the app would direct me to.
Logically you'd have a supercharger at the car rental depot to try and relieve this problem, but alas, the last time I was renting a car, and was considering an electric one from Hertz, this was not an option.
It's fine if that time is while you are asleep, or at your destination - but the last thing I wanted to do when returning the car before a flight would be to wait for ~30 mins for the thing to charge up, no matter where the app would direct me to.
Logically you'd have a supercharger at the car rental depot to try and relieve this problem, but alas, the last time I was renting a car, and was considering an electric one from Hertz, this was not an option.
One fun thing about returning the car less than fully charged is that the cost of recharge is just labor. I think they billed me $15-25 for it when I left a car without fully charging it.
Gas stations are ubiquitous. Charging stations are not.
You don't need to use any brain power to fill up a gas tank. I've never driven an EV before. When I'm on vacation or business trip, not sure I'd be in the mindset of learning how to find a charging station and charging a car for the first time in my life.
You don't need to use any brain power to fill up a gas tank. I've never driven an EV before. When I'm on vacation or business trip, not sure I'd be in the mindset of learning how to find a charging station and charging a car for the first time in my life.
learning how to find a charging station and charging a car
I'm traveling to a foreign country and renting a car in a few weeks and this is the main reason I don't want to rent an EV. I know I can work out how gas stations work there, I have no idea if can work out how to charge a car (Do I need an app? will that app work on a foreign phone? Do I need a local address/credit card to create an account with that app etc. etc.)
I'm traveling to a foreign country and renting a car in a few weeks and this is the main reason I don't want to rent an EV. I know I can work out how gas stations work there, I have no idea if can work out how to charge a car (Do I need an app? will that app work on a foreign phone? Do I need a local address/credit card to create an account with that app etc. etc.)
No problem, just put a cheap gas generator in the back seat:
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1094356_how-to-recharge...
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1094356_how-to-recharge...
I like to use nav as little as I possibly can. On road trips I usually look at the route once in the morning, then turn it off and don't look at it again the whole day. Feeling tethered to the nav sounds like a total drag.
If you are using Tesla's map. If you have paper directions because GPS doesn't get you there (happens all too often to some destinations) you won't have that. If you have already made the trip 3 times this week (common on a business trip) you know the route and may not use GPS anymore.
Gas stations are all over. I have high confidence in most places that when I notice the gas gauge is getting low I will see a gas station in about 10 minutes without a any detours. By contrast EV chargers exist but you will not see every 10 minutes no matter where you go.
Gas stations are all over. I have high confidence in most places that when I notice the gas gauge is getting low I will see a gas station in about 10 minutes without a any detours. By contrast EV chargers exist but you will not see every 10 minutes no matter where you go.
If you own a Tesla you might know that and even trust it. As a potential renter, I don't know that and will still need to make sure there are chargers near where I am headed.
...and also means that (a) your battery will be heated ready for a fast charge when you arrive, (b) the charger will likely actually be in operation, and (c) you can start charging your car as soon as you plug in without messing around with apps or cards.
Here in the UK at least, you still don't reliably get (b) or (c) with non-Tesla chargers. Though that is seemingly starting to change.
Here in the UK at least, you still don't reliably get (b) or (c) with non-Tesla chargers. Though that is seemingly starting to change.
Have you read a recipe on the Internet? The first half is all filler. Not sure why but it's a plague
>Not sure why but it's a plague
Perceived SEO
Perceived SEO
true-ish, but also because lots of scrolling means you can throw tons of ads before you reach actual recipe measurements
Recipe blogs were the first thing I thought of! At least most of those have a link at the top to jump right to the recipe.
Recipes aren't copyrightable, so websites add some filler that is copyrightable to the start.
Why would anyone want to steal the filler? I had assumed people did this for some inscrutable SEO reason
A barebones recipe is a complete commodity on the Internet and aside from maybe some ratings you have no idea if you should make it or not. The life history on some sites can definitely go too far but mostly I appreciate some of the backstory about why they made certain choices in a recipe and what else they tried.
So just copy the part that is without copyright somewhere else.
There was a giant federal subsidy for charging infrastructure in the infrastructure bill that passed a few years ago. I wonder how that's going...
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/05/congress-ev-charger...
A few months old, but I doubt that much has changed. I think I heard a few came online, so that's over $1B per charger. Maybe they are made out of solid gold and sculpted by hand.
The problem as usual is that we can't build things anymore. This is a civilization scale existential risk problem at this point. It's not just EV chargers. I wonder how many decades (plural) the Baltimore bridge will take to replace?
Edit: I still don't fully understand why we can't build things anymore. It's tempting to say regulation but the EU has a lot more regulation than we do and they at least seem capable of building things when they feel like it. Neither China nor Russia are paragons of free market liberalism, and they are able to build things. India is known for batshit crazy levels of bureaucracy and they can build things.
We have some private companies that can execute, of course, but overall our society seems to excel at rent extraction and delaying things for more rent extraction.
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/05/congress-ev-charger...
A few months old, but I doubt that much has changed. I think I heard a few came online, so that's over $1B per charger. Maybe they are made out of solid gold and sculpted by hand.
The problem as usual is that we can't build things anymore. This is a civilization scale existential risk problem at this point. It's not just EV chargers. I wonder how many decades (plural) the Baltimore bridge will take to replace?
Edit: I still don't fully understand why we can't build things anymore. It's tempting to say regulation but the EU has a lot more regulation than we do and they at least seem capable of building things when they feel like it. Neither China nor Russia are paragons of free market liberalism, and they are able to build things. India is known for batshit crazy levels of bureaucracy and they can build things.
We have some private companies that can execute, of course, but overall our society seems to excel at rent extraction and delaying things for more rent extraction.
To say that the EU has more regulation is not necessarily true. Let me give you an example. Suppose that i want to create a custom cellular device to control some process in the field. In the EU I pretty much just need to get a CE mark, whereas in the US, I need:
- FCC
- UL or ETL (now this is "voluntary" but if you deploy a non listed product in to some environements, you will be taking your company's life in your hands
- PTCRB - this is a cellular industry certification
- carrier approval for each carrier that i want to deploy on (verizon, etc)
Now some will rightly point out that there are faster ways of doing the above like using modules with modular certification, but you need to pay $$$ for this.
Folks don't see UL, PTCRB and carrier approvals as "regulations" because they are not government mandated. However, they are just as detrimental to innovation as anything that is driven by government.
As a developer of technology products, I also see more and more that US customers are terrified of custom hardware, or even anything physical - they just want to create cloud-based software systems that site in a datacenter that they do not own, running on virtual servers. They are often quite happy to give loads of margin over to folks selling and installing off-the-shelf hardware solutions that are often sub-optimal in terms of functionality, just so they can stay away from the scary physical stuff.
Now some will rightly point out that there are faster ways of doing the above like using modules with modular certification, but you need to pay $$$ for this.
Folks don't see UL, PTCRB and carrier approvals as "regulations" because they are not government mandated. However, they are just as detrimental to innovation as anything that is driven by government.
As a developer of technology products, I also see more and more that US customers are terrified of custom hardware, or even anything physical - they just want to create cloud-based software systems that site in a datacenter that they do not own, running on virtual servers. They are often quite happy to give loads of margin over to folks selling and installing off-the-shelf hardware solutions that are often sub-optimal in terms of functionality, just so they can stay away from the scary physical stuff.
Well when congress passed the bill they have allocated 7.5 billion for charging infrastructure. They haven't fully spend the money. Of which 5 billion is towards states to apply for the funding. States need to apply for this. So far only Hawaii, New York, Ohio and Pennsylvania have applied and built their stations(7 stations in total for 38 stalls) another 4 states have also applied and is under construction.
Twelve additional states have awarded contracts for constructing the charging stations. Then you have 17 states that have not yet issued proposals.
The remaining 2.5 billion is allocated for DoE, which will allocate funding based on proposals it receives.
Twelve additional states have awarded contracts for constructing the charging stations. Then you have 17 states that have not yet issued proposals.
The remaining 2.5 billion is allocated for DoE, which will allocate funding based on proposals it receives.
7.5 billion sounds like a lot of money, but even at the most reasonable costs it doesn't build many charging stations. You need to buy land, the chargers, install electric service to the land, install the chargers, build the parking spaces - that is at minimum. Realistically you really should be building restrooms and something to do while waiting for the charge (think play ground and walking path - though stores and restaurants are also useful)
These are grants and isn't meant to fully cover the cost. Depending on who is going to own the station. They also need to chip in the cost. Just like how EV tax credit works.
We can build things when we want. However we have noticed that just building isn't always right. Urbanists often point to what Robert Moses did to New York City - he was able to build and he built a lot, but in order to build a lot he bulldozed a lot of the city which people object to, and many think he built the wrong things. So we put roadblocks in place to ensure there is more time to object should someone like him come along. Of course that means things we should build don't get built.
The other half of this is often we do not want. Many things that you think we should want to build are not important to the people in charge, and so they don't do anything. What matters to congress isn't that we build something it is that we use a lot of consultants and union jobs to build it - both those groups donate a lot to campaigns. (I call this corruption - you decide what you think). Note that congress doesn't care care what gets built in the end of it serves a useful purpose, just that we use a lot of consultants and union labor to build it. Blow up the costs by building a massive monument - this looks great at the ribbon cutting so congress loves it never mind that the costs mean we can't build very much.
The other half of this is often we do not want. Many things that you think we should want to build are not important to the people in charge, and so they don't do anything. What matters to congress isn't that we build something it is that we use a lot of consultants and union jobs to build it - both those groups donate a lot to campaigns. (I call this corruption - you decide what you think). Note that congress doesn't care care what gets built in the end of it serves a useful purpose, just that we use a lot of consultants and union labor to build it. Blow up the costs by building a massive monument - this looks great at the ribbon cutting so congress loves it never mind that the costs mean we can't build very much.
As of last week, 7.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/biden-s-75-billion-i...
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/biden-s-75-billion-i...
The fed set a high bar (97% reliability) and a station every 50 miles along interstates.
Then there's state regs with some states (like Ohio) already well along before the bill passed.
And you have to plan the network and manufacturers have to ramp up.
We can build it fine, eventually.
Then there's state regs with some states (like Ohio) already well along before the bill passed.
And you have to plan the network and manufacturers have to ramp up.
We can build it fine, eventually.
>Neither China nor Russia are paragons of free market liberalism, and they are able to build things.
Dictatorships perform exceedingly well in executing top-down schemes.
In the lands of the free that is the US and most of the western world, we can pass laws and dangle bags of cash to entice society, but the executive can't do much beyond begging for everyone to please spend the cash before the legislature comes to ask questions.
Meanwhile over in the land of the dictators, if the dictator wants five bajillion chargers by tomorrow then bah gawd you will build five bajillion chargers by tomorrow because you won't exist tomorrow if you don't.
Dictatorships perform exceedingly well in executing top-down schemes.
In the lands of the free that is the US and most of the western world, we can pass laws and dangle bags of cash to entice society, but the executive can't do much beyond begging for everyone to please spend the cash before the legislature comes to ask questions.
Meanwhile over in the land of the dictators, if the dictator wants five bajillion chargers by tomorrow then bah gawd you will build five bajillion chargers by tomorrow because you won't exist tomorrow if you don't.
The major caveat here is that dictatorships (and similar) are entirely dependent on the assumption that the few at the top will largely make the right decision for all of their society. By cutting out everyone else they lose diversity of thought and experience and risk failing miserably when the dictator(s) make the wrong choice.
Most often the dictator is making the right decision for their personal life. IF they build anything useful for the people at all it is because they want to avoid a riot (bad for their personal life), or what a monument for how great they are.
That sounds like a rather benevolent "dictatorship." I wouldn't expect the "average dictator" to give two shits what people want.
For what its worth the average dictator is even more concerned with public approval (or the facade of public approval) than their democratically elected colleagues. They know their rule rests on a foundation built in sand, unlike a democratically elected politician that has the legitimacy of their institution and can expect to be in power until at least the end of their term.
I didn't say this very well, but this is genuinely a well studied area in Political Science.
I didn't say this very well, but this is genuinely a well studied area in Political Science.
That does make sense though.
Well personally I'm pretty cynical, I also don't expect much benevolence from a dictator. There are examples of it in history though.
While I don't want to live under a dictatorship, I'd argue that a dictator will only be as good as the system that put them into power. A huge issue we have today in the US is that our political system is so broken and corrupt that the only people willing to work their way to the top are ones we likely wouldn't want to have power. It may be a democracy of sorts, but if the system is broken the leadership will match regardless of how many/few are in charge.
While I don't want to live under a dictatorship, I'd argue that a dictator will only be as good as the system that put them into power. A huge issue we have today in the US is that our political system is so broken and corrupt that the only people willing to work their way to the top are ones we likely wouldn't want to have power. It may be a democracy of sorts, but if the system is broken the leadership will match regardless of how many/few are in charge.
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China obviously can build things, but I don’t know how you can compare India to the US. It’s far more of a shit show there, with things getting tied up in courts for even longer than the US. And I would not trust the quality as much either.
Building things is easier with cheaper labor, fewer environmental and safety concerns, and fewer property rights, all of which the US does not have anymore.
Building things is easier with cheaper labor, fewer environmental and safety concerns, and fewer property rights, all of which the US does not have anymore.
Point taken about India, probably a bad example. As for the rest -- EU can build things and has similar labor costs or even higher in some cases due to more unions and bureaucracy around them. China's labor costs are lower than ours but they are no longer bargain-basement-low.
Autocracy certainly makes it easier to build some types of things like trains, but EV chargers do not require autocratic land appropriation. Hell it'd be pretty easy to sell stores and restaurants on allowing them in their parking lots because customers are likely to come inside and shop or grab a meal while the car is charging. This is why you can very often find chargers in a Wal-Mart parking lot.
Autocracy certainly makes it easier to build some types of things like trains, but EV chargers do not require autocratic land appropriation. Hell it'd be pretty easy to sell stores and restaurants on allowing them in their parking lots because customers are likely to come inside and shop or grab a meal while the car is charging. This is why you can very often find chargers in a Wal-Mart parking lot.
On this specific issue, I would bet electric vehicles and electric chargers are not priorities for swing voters. Announcing it might offer some cheap political points, but spending the resources to implement and execute it might not be seen as worthwhile because at the end of the day, most US voters, especially the important ones in swing states, don’t care.
People are generally happy with the cost and qualities of their gas vehicles, or hybrid vehicles. If I was buying a car right now, I’d be looking at gas or hybrid too. They are proven to work and maintain value for a couple decades now. I’ll let others beta test EVs for another decade. I certainly would not rent one.
People are generally happy with the cost and qualities of their gas vehicles, or hybrid vehicles. If I was buying a car right now, I’d be looking at gas or hybrid too. They are proven to work and maintain value for a couple decades now. I’ll let others beta test EVs for another decade. I certainly would not rent one.
kevingadd(1)
Yeah, what they needed was for there to be enough chargers at every conceivable location their customers might stay the night at, otherwise it's just a nuisance to the customer.
If all hotels had as many charging spots as they did hotel rooms then no issue, but as soon as they don't then customers end up needing to spend a bunch of time at charging stations unnecessarily.
That might still be a problem if they're driving farther than half the range of the EVs, but it's extra troublesome if they can't even get a full charge overnight, or if they're picking the vehicles up not fully charged.
If all hotels had as many charging spots as they did hotel rooms then no issue, but as soon as they don't then customers end up needing to spend a bunch of time at charging stations unnecessarily.
That might still be a problem if they're driving farther than half the range of the EVs, but it's extra troublesome if they can't even get a full charge overnight, or if they're picking the vehicles up not fully charged.
The comments in this thread appear to overlook a crucial point. The business model of rental companies fundamentally revolves around earning more from vehicles than the depreciation costs incurred before resale. However, the recent price reductions by Tesla, coupled with the accelerated depreciation of electric vehicles (EVs) due to rapidly evolving technology and increasing competition, seem to clash with this business model.
> In the field, everything started looking different from what was on the spreadsheets. Unlike EV owners comfortable with the idea of charging a car battery at home and on the road, business travelers and vacationers suffered from range anxiety and didn’t want the hassle or worry of having to find a charger in the wild. Rudy Gardner, who as president of Teamsters Local 922 represents Hertz workers at Washington, DC’s Dulles and Reagan National airports, says travelers after a long flight would arrive at those Hertz locations to find that Teslas were the only vehicles available. “People didn’t want to charge them,” he says. “At the end of the night that’s all we had left, so they’d go to Avis.”
This is incredibly true. I travel a lot for work. Many (MANY!) of my colleagues don't want to deal with electric cars. They (Teslas) are too different, and charging them (non-Teslas) is an ordeal.
This was (and still is) amazing for me, as I can rent very nice EVs at low corporate rates, but there is no way this is good for Hertz or Avis.
> Hertz’s Teslas got into accidents four times more often than the company’s other vehicles
This is a wild, but very unsurprising, stat. Teslas are so, so, so different from regular cars. You have to _want_ to get plugged into this ecosystem. It's great for Turo (where you know what you're getting into) but horrible for the salesperson who has a meeting in two hours and needs a car RIGHT NOW.
This is incredibly true. I travel a lot for work. Many (MANY!) of my colleagues don't want to deal with electric cars. They (Teslas) are too different, and charging them (non-Teslas) is an ordeal.
This was (and still is) amazing for me, as I can rent very nice EVs at low corporate rates, but there is no way this is good for Hertz or Avis.
> Hertz’s Teslas got into accidents four times more often than the company’s other vehicles
This is a wild, but very unsurprising, stat. Teslas are so, so, so different from regular cars. You have to _want_ to get plugged into this ecosystem. It's great for Turo (where you know what you're getting into) but horrible for the salesperson who has a meeting in two hours and needs a car RIGHT NOW.
100% agree. And that is even for Tesla drivers.
I drive a Model 3 and it took some getting used to, but that as my car. But recently I had to drive a friend's Model X (to take him to the doctor twice), and I felt so lost EVEN coming from a Model 3.
The first hour of driving feels so distracting cuz you're just trying to figure things out. I can imagine it being doubly frustrated in a work/sales meeting situation. You're already stressed about your meeting, without having to also worry about how to drive this TOTALLY DIFFERENT car.
I drive a Model 3 and it took some getting used to, but that as my car. But recently I had to drive a friend's Model X (to take him to the doctor twice), and I felt so lost EVEN coming from a Model 3.
The first hour of driving feels so distracting cuz you're just trying to figure things out. I can imagine it being doubly frustrated in a work/sales meeting situation. You're already stressed about your meeting, without having to also worry about how to drive this TOTALLY DIFFERENT car.
What were the main factors making the Model X feel so different?
The main was the fact that the X has two displays (one where a gauge cluster would be behind the steering wheel in a car, the other in the center between the two front seats), whereas the 3 has one (just in the middle).
So there are various functions that are on the X's main display (but not on the side display). I was used to keep checking my speed and all that on the 3 on the center display, but instead had to keep checking in the main one.
Same with nav showing the next turn with your perspective. In the X it shows in the main cluster, but not in the MASSIVE map on the huge display. So I initially kept feeling unnerved not knowing when to turn.
The 3 uses one stalk on the right hand side of the steering wheel to handle autopilot, Park, Reverse, everything.
The X has another stalk for autopilot and cruise control and it's hidden behind the steering wheel. (my friend had to show me) so it's not obvious.
The doors on the X open up differently, and by themselves. That's just weird. I don't like that the door auto-opens when I walk up to the car.
It's a thousand papercuts. But that's for me as a Tesla driver where I already understand 95% of the concepts (even if I can't find the Autopilot stalk for example).
I can't imagine how complicated it is for a first-timer who isn't playing with it in their garage for a couple hours.
So there are various functions that are on the X's main display (but not on the side display). I was used to keep checking my speed and all that on the 3 on the center display, but instead had to keep checking in the main one.
Same with nav showing the next turn with your perspective. In the X it shows in the main cluster, but not in the MASSIVE map on the huge display. So I initially kept feeling unnerved not knowing when to turn.
The 3 uses one stalk on the right hand side of the steering wheel to handle autopilot, Park, Reverse, everything.
The X has another stalk for autopilot and cruise control and it's hidden behind the steering wheel. (my friend had to show me) so it's not obvious.
The doors on the X open up differently, and by themselves. That's just weird. I don't like that the door auto-opens when I walk up to the car.
It's a thousand papercuts. But that's for me as a Tesla driver where I already understand 95% of the concepts (even if I can't find the Autopilot stalk for example).
I can't imagine how complicated it is for a first-timer who isn't playing with it in their garage for a couple hours.
Hertz's loss is my gain: bought a 2023 Chevy Bolt EUV in excellent condition with only 9k miles on it from the Hertz used car lot. Car was priced $8500 below MSRP. That's roughly 30% depreciation, more than the average first year hit of 15% to 20% for ICE vehicles.
Wonderful car, I love it. I quickly adapted to one-pedal mode where instead of using brakes the car's motors become generators that recharge the battery when slowing to a stop. The quiet ride and instant throttle response beat gasoline cars by a mile, I'll never go back. GM engineers did a wonderful job with the ergonomics, it has just the right mix of traditional buttons for AC/heat and radio, speedometer cluster, and a large easy-to-use and responsive touch screen. The only drawback is it is slow to recharge (about 9 hours), making long trips impractical. For us it's a great second car for local and regional use.
Wonderful car, I love it. I quickly adapted to one-pedal mode where instead of using brakes the car's motors become generators that recharge the battery when slowing to a stop. The quiet ride and instant throttle response beat gasoline cars by a mile, I'll never go back. GM engineers did a wonderful job with the ergonomics, it has just the right mix of traditional buttons for AC/heat and radio, speedometer cluster, and a large easy-to-use and responsive touch screen. The only drawback is it is slow to recharge (about 9 hours), making long trips impractical. For us it's a great second car for local and regional use.
Are you factoring in the federal tax credit with your math? I suspect not when I look at their website where lightly used EUVs are ~$20k. Of course, you may not be eligible for the federal tax credit, but $8500 doesn't strike me as much of a deal.
Used 2023's are not eligible for any tax credit. New EUV's are eligible for $7500 tax credit. Used EV's must be at least two years old to qualify for the $4,000 tax credit. There are no new 2023 EUV's available in my local market, nearest one is 50 miles away. The price was at the lower side of retail KBB, so it was a fair deal, not a huge bargain, no. I'm happy with it, I basically got the $7500 tax credit baked into the price at point of sale.
I think that's the real loss here. Rental vehicles are a big source of cheap used cars. Having a steady flow of EVs from there would have brought down used prices and made them more financially accessible. Shame we won't see that now, at least in the near future.
EVs undercut one of the main 2 revenue streams of rental car companies - gouging people on gas charges when they don’t fill the tank up themselves. (The other being overpriced insurance). I recently returned an electric rental car to Hertz without charging it. It cost $15 extra. To me, that price is low enough I’d likely never charge it before returning it.
$15 to skip finding a fast charging station and not wait around the 20+ minutes (assuming no waiting line)?
It's like they're paying you not to charge it.
It's like they're paying you not to charge it.
But based on other comments, it sounds like they're not actually charging before sending the car out again, so $15 is just a pure gouge, with no relation to the actual cost of charging
Most places won't actually put gas in a car you bring back with less gas in it either, they just mark that it's at 3/4 or 1/2 a tank and you need to bring it back with the same amount of gas or they charge you.
And presumably it's just pure gouge often because people will overfill.
And presumably it's just pure gouge often because people will overfill.
Does Hertz charge an additional fee if the charge is below a certain level? I know many renting on Turo do if the charge is below 20%, even those with the fee to return without charging.
EVs are great as vehicles. When they are designed simply and efficiently, the way Tesla does, they don’t need much maintenance unless you get in a wreck. But they are not good investment assets, which is what Hertz was betting on (likely because at that time they didn’t go down in value, unlike other cars). Their big mistake was not realizing Musk was going for mass-market dominance and undercutting the plethora of bad EVs on the market.
Teslas need a lot of maintenance. They are among the least reliable car brands. Just having fewer moving parts isn't sufficient to overcome incompetent engineering and sloppy assembly.
https://www.truedelta.com/Tesla/brand-reliability-Tesla
https://www.truedelta.com/Tesla/brand-reliability-Tesla
The sample size on that page is something to be looked at. The 2017 model 3 has 6 reports. It also appears to be a self reporting site. Who is logging on to report, nope, I didn't have to fix my car today!
I haven't had to take my Tesla in for any maintenance. My VW Golf however needed annual maintenance and taken in to the dealer service center. Completely different experience
People may like the Tesla ownership experience, but it makes a bad rental experience because everything about the car is so different.
How do you unlock it? Turn it on? Put it in reverse? Use the turn signal? Open the door from inside? Etc. All need to be learned; all unlike other cars.
How do you unlock it? Turn it on? Put it in reverse? Use the turn signal? Open the door from inside? Etc. All need to be learned; all unlike other cars.
To be clear, every single Tesla that Hertz owned/owns has a standard turn signal/drive, reverse stalk.
Others I agree with.
Others I agree with.
Tesla as a company has only existed for 10 years and the current design language 5? years or so. Anyone old enough to drive would have experienced gas cars and the norms there, but we're also starting to see people get a Tesla as their first car.
As the population ages, maybe the current "Tesla norms" will become "car norms" and this will be a moot point.
As the population ages, maybe the current "Tesla norms" will become "car norms" and this will be a moot point.
It takes about 10m to figure it out. I rented a Tesla, was confused for a few minutes, and then no problems for a 2000 mile road trip.
I’ve had this experience with ICE (luxury) vehicles as well, but Tesla does take it to an extteme
You could conceivably do unlocking and turning it on by simply having the Hertz app installed on a smartphone that's new enough (last 10 years should be enough to ensure it has all the features necessary). The app would also always know where the car is, how much range it has, all useful information and conveniently available from the rental company app.
Agreed on the other points though, EVs are very different to what ICE drivers are used to.
Agreed on the other points though, EVs are very different to what ICE drivers are used to.
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The renting experience absolutely sucked. You were expected to pay a premium, there is meaningful variance in the quality of the different cars and they needed you to bring it back charged (as if everyone has an extra 30-90 minutes on their way to the airport).
They should have treated these like any other car in the same class and done a market price fee for the battery.
They should have treated these like any other car in the same class and done a market price fee for the battery.
A big part of a car rental's business model is selling off the fleet after a short amount of time. Except if the rest of the world is anything like car country Germany, then there is basically no market at all for used EVs. Well, given Germany's traditional tech xenophobia, it might not quite be as bad in the rest of the world. But even without Tesla's price cut that is mentioned in the article, I'm not sure whether this part of the traditional business model would have upheld after changing the fleet over to all electric.
I took a trip last year where I needed a car. Hertz was pushing the electrics hard, at a very reasonable discount. I ran the numbers in my head and decided there was no practical way I was going to be able to charge an electric and make my flight. I love EVs, I have an EV at home, but it was just not practical with my time limited schedule.
Incidentally, in that same trip I took public transit most everywhere until the last day when I needed more mobility.
Incidentally, in that same trip I took public transit most everywhere until the last day when I needed more mobility.
“ By piling into EVs as car prices were peaking, a fact visible at every showroom in the country, the two had made the most classic of Wall Street errors, buying high and selling low. ”
They also mention at the beginning of the article the numerous failed CEOs and attempts to turn around the company over the last 20 years.
They also mention at the beginning of the article the numerous failed CEOs and attempts to turn around the company over the last 20 years.
They should also mention their plummeting reputation due to erroneously reporting rental cars stolen causing innocent people to get arrested.
All I need to know about Hertz is that their quality or prices are so bad that costcotravel.com does not list them.
All I need to know about Hertz is that their quality or prices are so bad that costcotravel.com does not list them.
The last time we rented from Hertz (and by 'last time', I don't just mean just 'most recent') they attempted to invoke a bogus 'smoking in the car' penalty, after having taken various steps to hide the existence of a residual smoke smell before we drove off the lot. Fortunately, we were still in the area when the bogus charge appeared on the email receipt, and after we confronted the perpetrator's co-workers in person (the perpetrator himself conveniently taking a break at the time - perhaps smoking in one of their other cars), the charge was dropped.
Costcotravel.com is the way we do it now, too.
Costcotravel.com is the way we do it now, too.
This is mentioned in the article.
> numerous failed CEOs and attempts to turn around the company
Ok, let's say they have been through this cycle annually. That would make it about 1/31,536,000 Hertz?
Ok, let's say they have been through this cycle annually. That would make it about 1/31,536,000 Hertz?
I just wanted to say that anecdotally since I cannot see this perspective being shared here, that since Hertz started renting Telsas, I have only rented from Hertz, and only rented Teslas, and I have had nothing but positive experiences, and generally speaking have enjoyed renting these cars and felt much safer in them than I would have in the likes of the Toyota Yaris and Nissan Versa (or is that vice versa) type cars I have rented in the past.
That being said, I would never rent or drive for more than an in town errand, any other brand of electric vehicle that doesn't allow the use of Tesla's superchargers and it is obvious why that would be a completely egregious breach of customer service to rent such a car to an unsuspecting customer.
I am not looking forward to going back to Yaris.
That being said, I would never rent or drive for more than an in town errand, any other brand of electric vehicle that doesn't allow the use of Tesla's superchargers and it is obvious why that would be a completely egregious breach of customer service to rent such a car to an unsuspecting customer.
I am not looking forward to going back to Yaris.
Whats the experience renting a Tesla for the first time after a long flight? Are the systems intuitive (charging, info-tainment, etc) enough for a driver whose never driven one before?
I think if I was getting off a red eye flight and stumbled into a Tesla at 6:30am having never been inside one before I would probably spend 5 minutes fumbling around in the parking space and then go back inside the Hertz office complaining that I couldn't find the ignition switch and please help.
in my experience getting to the car around 1am after a really long day on a last minute trip.... I didn't really have any trouble at all and car was fully charged. Most it honestly works about how you'd expect (pull down on the stalk to engage drive etc). Had enough charge to get me through my weekend without ever having to think about it.
Honestly, its not that much worse than my prius with the goofy shifter. Knowing what to do with the keycard was confusing until the screen lit up to show me
Honestly, its not that much worse than my prius with the goofy shifter. Knowing what to do with the keycard was confusing until the screen lit up to show me
Auto rental is a bet on used-car futures.
There was no real reason electric cars had to be more expensive than gas cars, other than market positioning. Tesla does not get to have Apple-sized margins, just car-company-sized margins. Once reality set in, electric car prices started to come down. That Hertz's finance-type CEO didn't see this coming is his fault.
The other big problems seem to be that "Hertz’s Teslas got into accidents four times more often than the company’s other vehicles", and getting Teslas fixed takes far too long and costs too much. Maybe Hertz should have had a software change installed to limit acceleration at slow speeds, or at least a more conservative pedal effort curve.
There was no real reason electric cars had to be more expensive than gas cars, other than market positioning. Tesla does not get to have Apple-sized margins, just car-company-sized margins. Once reality set in, electric car prices started to come down. That Hertz's finance-type CEO didn't see this coming is his fault.
The other big problems seem to be that "Hertz’s Teslas got into accidents four times more often than the company’s other vehicles", and getting Teslas fixed takes far too long and costs too much. Maybe Hertz should have had a software change installed to limit acceleration at slow speeds, or at least a more conservative pedal effort curve.
The one thing that is painfully obvious to anyone who has rented an electric vehicle in a foreign country, is that charging those things is close to impossible.
Most charging networks require a specific app, that often can only be downloaded in that country's App Store. If you do manage to download the app for a network, signing up can fail because it requires a local address or phone number. Eventually, you'll find a network that does allow foreigners to sign up, but realize that their closest charger is slower and 10 miles away. Often the chargers will show up as available in the app, but actually not be functional and there is no-one at the site to help, even if it's a gas station. They'll just roll their eyes and say it's not their charger. Call the network.
At least gas you can buy with cold hard cash or by simply swiping your credit card at a gas station. No need to input your pronouns into an app.
A good example how society sometimes regresses on some fronts.
Most charging networks require a specific app, that often can only be downloaded in that country's App Store. If you do manage to download the app for a network, signing up can fail because it requires a local address or phone number. Eventually, you'll find a network that does allow foreigners to sign up, but realize that their closest charger is slower and 10 miles away. Often the chargers will show up as available in the app, but actually not be functional and there is no-one at the site to help, even if it's a gas station. They'll just roll their eyes and say it's not their charger. Call the network.
At least gas you can buy with cold hard cash or by simply swiping your credit card at a gas station. No need to input your pronouns into an app.
A good example how society sometimes regresses on some fronts.
In the early days it was nice: being able to supercharge and be charged the actual cost, return the car with any SoC so long as it was enough the return facility could get the car to a charger, had the adapter included.
But it all changed when typical greed came to play and they started requiring a full charge on return which is frankly impossible. Rentals stopped having the adapter either from the facility not putting it in the car or simple theft.
The other problem is app access. They really needed to work out a deal with Tesla to make it easier to grant temp access.
But it all changed when typical greed came to play and they started requiring a full charge on return which is frankly impossible. Rentals stopped having the adapter either from the facility not putting it in the car or simple theft.
The other problem is app access. They really needed to work out a deal with Tesla to make it easier to grant temp access.
Requiring a full charge on return is bonkers!
should add that it might not be a requirement at every location, but the last one I rented at it was. Plus side they did make sure the car was fully charged when I rented it at least.
I was hopeful for Tesla but my experience renting permanently turned me off.
The technology is unusable. I spent an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out simple tasks like how to lock the doors, open the trunk, or use the windshield wipers. The cars don't support Carplay, so I had to figure out how to log into some app on a touch screen. Eventually, after much frustration, I could get bluetooth to work so it could function like a car head unit from 2007.
Then the charging experience.
I was in Tucson, a metro area with a population of over a million people. There were two Tesla chargers TOTAL. What they don't tell you is those chargers don't support full charging speed when they are congested, so prepare for hour-long charging sessions. Which makes sense because the laws of physics, they don't have a nuclear power plant on standby to charge dozens of cars at 200KW.
The driving experience, was huge regression. I used to own a Bolt EV so that's my reference point for "cheap, utilitarian EV". I expected Tesla would be some kind of luxury vehicle. Wrong. These cars have the suspension of a base model mid-90s corolla, and the road noise too. The Model 3 was the loudest car I've ever driven, louder than modern pickup trucks.
Of course they failed. Anyone who has ever rented one of these things would pick up on it pretty fast.
The technology is unusable. I spent an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out simple tasks like how to lock the doors, open the trunk, or use the windshield wipers. The cars don't support Carplay, so I had to figure out how to log into some app on a touch screen. Eventually, after much frustration, I could get bluetooth to work so it could function like a car head unit from 2007.
Then the charging experience.
I was in Tucson, a metro area with a population of over a million people. There were two Tesla chargers TOTAL. What they don't tell you is those chargers don't support full charging speed when they are congested, so prepare for hour-long charging sessions. Which makes sense because the laws of physics, they don't have a nuclear power plant on standby to charge dozens of cars at 200KW.
The driving experience, was huge regression. I used to own a Bolt EV so that's my reference point for "cheap, utilitarian EV". I expected Tesla would be some kind of luxury vehicle. Wrong. These cars have the suspension of a base model mid-90s corolla, and the road noise too. The Model 3 was the loudest car I've ever driven, louder than modern pickup trucks.
Of course they failed. Anyone who has ever rented one of these things would pick up on it pretty fast.
Carplay is probably the deciding factor for me in my next car. Anything less is a non-starter.
> The cars don't support Carplay, so I had to figure out how to log into some app on a touch screen. Eventually, after much frustration, I could get bluetooth to work so it could function like a car head unit from 2007.
Coming from a place of genuine curiosity, why would you prefer CarPlay over logging in on "some app"?
I currently have two cars with CarPlay and a Tesla and I _personally_ find the Tesla infotainment system works better than CarPlay (probably because of the integration).
On the other hand, I can imagine on a rental car it'd be easier to just plug your phone in via USB and have all your apps & whatever on your phone ready to go. I guess CarPlay is better if you switch cars a lot and (potentially?) the Tesla system is better if you have the same car all/most of the time?
For a counter anecdote - my tesla went in for some minor service the other day and they gave me a loaner, the loaner worked exactly like my personal car, logged into all my apps and whatever, seat, mirror temperature, drive mode etc all synchronized. I wonder if more people owned Teslas as their personal vehicles switching to another Tesla would feel more normal?
Coming from a place of genuine curiosity, why would you prefer CarPlay over logging in on "some app"?
I currently have two cars with CarPlay and a Tesla and I _personally_ find the Tesla infotainment system works better than CarPlay (probably because of the integration).
On the other hand, I can imagine on a rental car it'd be easier to just plug your phone in via USB and have all your apps & whatever on your phone ready to go. I guess CarPlay is better if you switch cars a lot and (potentially?) the Tesla system is better if you have the same car all/most of the time?
For a counter anecdote - my tesla went in for some minor service the other day and they gave me a loaner, the loaner worked exactly like my personal car, logged into all my apps and whatever, seat, mirror temperature, drive mode etc all synchronized. I wonder if more people owned Teslas as their personal vehicles switching to another Tesla would feel more normal?
I will never buy a car without CarPlay - it's that simple. I will likely buy an EV at some point but I will never buy a Tesla, Rivian or GM EV since they lack this essential feature. I like that all of my phone's relevant data is accessible and I don't have to do any sync. I listed to podcasts with the Overcast app on my iPhone - the CarPlay interface is excellent. I like having access to a choice of maps on the display.
We have no car.
We love electric cars.
For convenience we only rent gas powered cars.
We love electric cars.
For convenience we only rent gas powered cars.
Forgot "We only do road trips"?
We use a car for longer road trips, afternoon trips to the islands and for gardening supplies from Home Depot for our garden.
Do the visits to Home Depot also benefit from using a gasoline car somehow, i.e is it far away or there haven't been many electric trucks until recently?
Worth being aware that not all Hertz locations are really set up for charging. I rented one way to a fairly small town where the local Hertz was in a body shop and was very happy to receive a car. If I'd had the Bolt EUV I was originally going to use (had low charge out the door and slow charging) they'd have been stuck plugging it into an adapter on a 110 outlet in the shop, or would have needed to leave it elsewhere to charge.
I had a Hertz telsa rental out of BWI and stopped by a charging station as they asked me to return it above 3/4’s full. When I arrived at the charger, there were 3 hertz employees with 3 Tesla’s in line charging rental cars.
They let me cut in front of them to charge it up but I can see why they ditched the concept, lot of labor in charging vs gas fill ups if that’s what they’re doing.
They let me cut in front of them to charge it up but I can see why they ditched the concept, lot of labor in charging vs gas fill ups if that’s what they’re doing.
The Bolt EV/EUV are apparently very slow chargers, and I got it with maybe 1/3 charge. Around town would have been no problem but it was evening and I was headed for an 80+ mile drive through national forest with +4000 foot elevation change. When it didn't get enough charge for comfort while I stopped for dinner it was time to swap it out.
So basically a couple of finance bros thought they could make a killing by buying Hertz cheap at auction and then doing the old pump and dump with the company. Turns out they weren’t actually very good at running a business and made a huge mess of things. While renting cars is sort of a stodgy boring business turns out it’s boring for a reason… because that’s what works.
This was not a pump and dump, it was merely poor performance.
But my MBA!
> But my MBA!
Scherr is a lawyer [1].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Scherr#Education
Scherr is a lawyer [1].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Scherr#Education
This guy is 0 for 2 in the last decade (from Goldman’s disappointment in Marcus and its deal with Apple):
> In 2016, Scherr led Goldman Sachs’ launch of consumer banking, branded as Marcus.[3] He also served as CFO during the firm’s launch of AppleCard, in partnership with Apple, Inc., in 2019.[8][9]
> In 2016, Scherr led Goldman Sachs’ launch of consumer banking, branded as Marcus.[3] He also served as CFO during the firm’s launch of AppleCard, in partnership with Apple, Inc., in 2019.[8][9]
I rented on Turo for a couple of years. I had a relatively low-cost 4-cylinder gas car (Toyota C-HR) and an EV that cost twice as much. The ROI on the gas car was much higher, as I could only get about 25%-50% more for the EV. That said, I did find that the quality of the renter was higher for the EV (as in things like smoking in the vehicle, etc)
I rented a Chevy Bolt through the EV Manager's special and it was perfect for what I wanted it for: easy drive to my friend's place where I was staying and a few other friends I wanted to visit. I returned it with 10% or so, for which they charge $25 to charge it up. That's a great deal.
If I needed a longer trip or more travel I wouldn't have done it, but it was perfect for this.
On an earlier occasion, I wanted to try out a Tesla Model X and so I rented one through Getaround/Turo (I forget which) and honestly I disliked spending all this time at the charging station. It's possibly user error but the charge rates at the supercharger were inconsistent and I had to spend 30 minutes there. So for occasional use where I need to charge, I wouldn't do it because I clearly don't know how to charge these well. For occasional use where I don't need to charge, it's great.
If I needed a longer trip or more travel I wouldn't have done it, but it was perfect for this.
On an earlier occasion, I wanted to try out a Tesla Model X and so I rented one through Getaround/Turo (I forget which) and honestly I disliked spending all this time at the charging station. It's possibly user error but the charge rates at the supercharger were inconsistent and I had to spend 30 minutes there. So for occasional use where I need to charge, I wouldn't do it because I clearly don't know how to charge these well. For occasional use where I don't need to charge, it's great.
I rented with Hertz once.
I was extra careful because I heard stories. I took pictures of the car from all sides and notified the Hertz employee about super minor scratches that I found just in case. I drove it very carefully through my stay in Switzerland and returned it to the airport.
Unfortunately it did not occur to me to take pictures of the interior of the car.
They charged me 800 euros for missing rear trunk cover. I am 100% sure that I did not take that piece off, I simply failed to notice it was missing (I was not familiar with the brand of car they gave me, it was different than the one I requested) when took the car. They charged me 800 euros for that piece. The missing piece's price in Switzerland is around 100 euros. I offered to buy it and to organize a transport company to get it to them, to no avail. I felt scammed.
So I will be watching how this develops while relishing the schadenfreude.
I was extra careful because I heard stories. I took pictures of the car from all sides and notified the Hertz employee about super minor scratches that I found just in case. I drove it very carefully through my stay in Switzerland and returned it to the airport.
Unfortunately it did not occur to me to take pictures of the interior of the car.
They charged me 800 euros for missing rear trunk cover. I am 100% sure that I did not take that piece off, I simply failed to notice it was missing (I was not familiar with the brand of car they gave me, it was different than the one I requested) when took the car. They charged me 800 euros for that piece. The missing piece's price in Switzerland is around 100 euros. I offered to buy it and to organize a transport company to get it to them, to no avail. I felt scammed.
So I will be watching how this develops while relishing the schadenfreude.
I've never used Hertz specifically much because companies I've worked for have typically had relationships with different major car rental companies so those were cheaper.
I guess I've been lucky over the years. I've managed to avoid an actual accident but I've always gotten away with the odd scrape here and there. Never too bad but multiple things I could have been dinged for.
I guess I've been lucky over the years. I've managed to avoid an actual accident but I've always gotten away with the odd scrape here and there. Never too bad but multiple things I could have been dinged for.
Huh. I do the video thing on the outside but I’ll now do it on the inside too.
Doing it on the outside saved me last time from Enterprise claiming I damaged TWO tyres. Nope mfrs, here is the video evidence it was like that when I got it. Oh, and does that mean you sent my family out on tyres you deem illegal too?
Doing it on the outside saved me last time from Enterprise claiming I damaged TWO tyres. Nope mfrs, here is the video evidence it was like that when I got it. Oh, and does that mean you sent my family out on tyres you deem illegal too?
In Paris I rented an EV car in Paris with Avis.
I did the regular check, used the car and gave back the car.
After that, I received a letter for a missing cable in the car and I have been charged 950€. I told them they didn't mention that cable anywhere but they refused to cancel that fee.
Don't rent an EV, it doesn't worth the price.
After that, I received a letter for a missing cable in the car and I have been charged 950€. I told them they didn't mention that cable anywhere but they refused to cancel that fee.
Don't rent an EV, it doesn't worth the price.
I have mixed views on this.
Long Tesla: If prices are falling, costs must be falling. Surely the $4500 USD Chinese EV represents close to the true long term minimum cost of producing one of these. Margins compared to ICE are going to be awesome and only get better.
Short Tesla: In 10 years, we'll look back at taxpayer funded lithium ion EV as policy failure, as well as an unmitigated environmental disaster from heavy metals mining and battery disposal, as well as a structure and vehicle insurance disaster due to adverse collision and fire risk. If the technology is so great, it should stand on its own merit, without the excessive subsidies. Failure of FSD isn't helping.
As for Hertz, sucks to suck. Not much silver lining for the company. Sounds like they need to die and get replaced by manufacturers going direct with rentals.
Long Tesla: If prices are falling, costs must be falling. Surely the $4500 USD Chinese EV represents close to the true long term minimum cost of producing one of these. Margins compared to ICE are going to be awesome and only get better.
Short Tesla: In 10 years, we'll look back at taxpayer funded lithium ion EV as policy failure, as well as an unmitigated environmental disaster from heavy metals mining and battery disposal, as well as a structure and vehicle insurance disaster due to adverse collision and fire risk. If the technology is so great, it should stand on its own merit, without the excessive subsidies. Failure of FSD isn't helping.
As for Hertz, sucks to suck. Not much silver lining for the company. Sounds like they need to die and get replaced by manufacturers going direct with rentals.
My second hand experience is not from Hertz, but another rental company.
The company bought a mixture of Teslas and misc. other EVs. In addition, they ignored installing any charging infrastructure at their smaller locations. The EV can't be rented below 80%, and the operator does not have the ability to charge the EV onsite. This takes the EV out of the fleet until either the company sends a driver to pick up the EV or the local operator takes the car somewhere to charge it. The location that I am very familiar with just let most returned EVs just sat unused.
At one point this local operator had 10 EVs waiting to be charged. Eventually the company sent a driver to pick most of them up.
This isn't the only problem with rental EVs, but the lack of forethought in deployment cost this rental company a fortune.
The company bought a mixture of Teslas and misc. other EVs. In addition, they ignored installing any charging infrastructure at their smaller locations. The EV can't be rented below 80%, and the operator does not have the ability to charge the EV onsite. This takes the EV out of the fleet until either the company sends a driver to pick up the EV or the local operator takes the car somewhere to charge it. The location that I am very familiar with just let most returned EVs just sat unused.
At one point this local operator had 10 EVs waiting to be charged. Eventually the company sent a driver to pick most of them up.
This isn't the only problem with rental EVs, but the lack of forethought in deployment cost this rental company a fortune.
I have rented a lot of cars over the years, and wouldn’t be opposed to renting an EV for a business trip where the driving was minor. Family vacation? No. It’s a bit of a deal killer to force me to wait for charging. I allocate about seven minutes into any given car return for a visit to the gas station on the way back. That’s all. How much would I have to allocate for charging if I was required to do it? Hours?
There are a lot of questions that the general populace simply doesn’t know the answers to. It’s really easy for me to believe what was said about range anxiety as a serious contributing factor to the programs lackluster performance. It wouldn’t have undone the damage the extra depreciation cost, but commercial/popular success would’ve come with rewards.
There are a lot of questions that the general populace simply doesn’t know the answers to. It’s really easy for me to believe what was said about range anxiety as a serious contributing factor to the programs lackluster performance. It wouldn’t have undone the damage the extra depreciation cost, but commercial/popular success would’ve come with rewards.
Electric car makers of all stripes are absolutely taking the piss and the check has come due with their shenanigans:
Price. The combination of the covid supply chain dislocation and resulting car inflation, combined with mainstream early adopter enthusiasm fooled EV makers into thinking they don't have to be super tight on price just like every other car in what has always been a super competitive market. EVs are superior to ICE cars in almost every way including cost to build, but you'd never know it. EV makers need to wake up quickly before the Chinese eat their lunch and dinner. Without a strong EV product now in 10 years time you'll be out of business.
Mis-features. After Apple introduced the iPhone everyone fell in line behind their design. But Apple largely got it right. Unfortunately car makers have done the same with Tesla but to their great detriment. Tesla's design swings wildly from being user hostile (no physical controls) to techno-wank (features that mostly serve as gimmicks or just Musk's whims). Now otherwise sensible car makers are putting huge screens in cars and shoe-horning everything they can into them. Tesla thinks that colored lights around the cabin are a more important feature than a stalk for indicators or wipers, or even engaging the drive train, just swipe on the screen instead! But if that doesn't work, you've got physical controls... on the ceiling. They built a truck with no rear visibility most of the time, so use the screen way down below the rear vision mirror. Perfectly natural! Your average buyer wants their EV to be familiar to their ICE car. They don't want "the future" they just want a good car they like.
After Sales. Some car makers seem to think that once they've got your money they're done. Tesla is the worst with their parts stinginess and remote disabling of features and lack of service and warranty support. More generally making cars repairable, be it due to panel design or parts availability is really important to the consumer and has a huge impact on costs, be it maintenance, repairs or insurance. Even price stability is very important since the used car market is key for all participants. This is the day to day reality for buyers and owners of cars that EV makers can't just pretend doesn't exist. You're not selling exotics to millionaires you're selling workhorses to ordinary people.
Price. The combination of the covid supply chain dislocation and resulting car inflation, combined with mainstream early adopter enthusiasm fooled EV makers into thinking they don't have to be super tight on price just like every other car in what has always been a super competitive market. EVs are superior to ICE cars in almost every way including cost to build, but you'd never know it. EV makers need to wake up quickly before the Chinese eat their lunch and dinner. Without a strong EV product now in 10 years time you'll be out of business.
Mis-features. After Apple introduced the iPhone everyone fell in line behind their design. But Apple largely got it right. Unfortunately car makers have done the same with Tesla but to their great detriment. Tesla's design swings wildly from being user hostile (no physical controls) to techno-wank (features that mostly serve as gimmicks or just Musk's whims). Now otherwise sensible car makers are putting huge screens in cars and shoe-horning everything they can into them. Tesla thinks that colored lights around the cabin are a more important feature than a stalk for indicators or wipers, or even engaging the drive train, just swipe on the screen instead! But if that doesn't work, you've got physical controls... on the ceiling. They built a truck with no rear visibility most of the time, so use the screen way down below the rear vision mirror. Perfectly natural! Your average buyer wants their EV to be familiar to their ICE car. They don't want "the future" they just want a good car they like.
After Sales. Some car makers seem to think that once they've got your money they're done. Tesla is the worst with their parts stinginess and remote disabling of features and lack of service and warranty support. More generally making cars repairable, be it due to panel design or parts availability is really important to the consumer and has a huge impact on costs, be it maintenance, repairs or insurance. Even price stability is very important since the used car market is key for all participants. This is the day to day reality for buyers and owners of cars that EV makers can't just pretend doesn't exist. You're not selling exotics to millionaires you're selling workhorses to ordinary people.
I had to rent a car earlier this year and it was kind of difficult to find a gasoline powered car. All of the rental companies seemed to be pushing EVs. I have nothing against them, and they are obviously the future, but I don't want to rent one for a variety of reasons.
That will probably change in the future, but it feels like it's too soon for EVs to be the default rental option when they aren't the default purchase or lease option.
That will probably change in the future, but it feels like it's too soon for EVs to be the default rental option when they aren't the default purchase or lease option.
These financiers are a plague and it’s a shame we let them have so much outsized influence. They behave and we treat them like geniuses, when they are just really good at a narrow skill set and it happens to be a well-compensated one. But then if you give them an inch they start hiring all their friends to positions they don’t know anything about, and the cycle continues. Kind of like IT actually…
EVs are the worst proposition for a car rental. When you rent a car, you're planning on driving it. Much more than the car that sits on your driveway and only takes you to work and back every day.
But it doesn't help that Tesla is a tech company and their product is sold as a tech product. No one wants to buy a 3 year old used iPhone, either.
But it doesn't help that Tesla is a tech company and their product is sold as a tech product. No one wants to buy a 3 year old used iPhone, either.
I bought the cheapest (shortest range) Tesla. I can charge at home. The money I save, I will use for renting ICE for roadtrips.
But then you have to drive a fossil car for road trips.
As a former Hertz customer, this felt like a product management failure.
You'd just get an option: among the 20 different vehicle types listed, one would be an EV. I'd look at it and think "yeah that might be interesting", but as a non-EV-owner I have quite a few questions. Do I need to bring it back charged? Do they have an agreement with charger-folks to use their charger? Am I going to be gouged on electricity the same way they gouge me on bridge tolls? Can I even drive an EV? (I guess -- probably, but who knows?). I therefore conclude that the EV option is only for someone who already drives an EV, and has rented one before.
It had the feel of some bean counter or senior executive decided on a whim to stick a bunch of EVs into the fleet, but no person with a brain at Hertz had done anything whatsoever beyond parking them and adding some records to a database table.
They could have had content on the web site "click here to learn more about the EV rental experience". They could have had an "EV concierge" experience where someone walks you to the vehicle and answers questions. A dedicated 1-800 number to call if you need a charger. They could have sent out offer emails in advance "we'd love you to try an EV on your next rental, here's a discount and some FAQ answers and we'll make it really easy". Nope, none of that.
You'd just get an option: among the 20 different vehicle types listed, one would be an EV. I'd look at it and think "yeah that might be interesting", but as a non-EV-owner I have quite a few questions. Do I need to bring it back charged? Do they have an agreement with charger-folks to use their charger? Am I going to be gouged on electricity the same way they gouge me on bridge tolls? Can I even drive an EV? (I guess -- probably, but who knows?). I therefore conclude that the EV option is only for someone who already drives an EV, and has rented one before.
It had the feel of some bean counter or senior executive decided on a whim to stick a bunch of EVs into the fleet, but no person with a brain at Hertz had done anything whatsoever beyond parking them and adding some records to a database table.
They could have had content on the web site "click here to learn more about the EV rental experience". They could have had an "EV concierge" experience where someone walks you to the vehicle and answers questions. A dedicated 1-800 number to call if you need a charger. They could have sent out offer emails in advance "we'd love you to try an EV on your next rental, here's a discount and some FAQ answers and we'll make it really easy". Nope, none of that.
Doesn't matter, investors these days demand so much ever increasing profits that their Ws will exceed their Ls anyway. Money begets money after all.
I thought about renting one but their policy is you have to return the vehicle charge to the same level they gave it to you (or they charge you for a full battery). I hate this policy with gas cars but at least filling gas is fast.
With electric cars, is the expectation I charge my car 30 minutes while trying to make a flight? It just doesn’t work. Hertz didn’t try and make their policies work with Teslas.
With electric cars, is the expectation I charge my car 30 minutes while trying to make a flight? It just doesn’t work. Hertz didn’t try and make their policies work with Teslas.
I hope this isn't too meta, but journalist's absolutely love starting stories like this, and it's pretty nauseating:
> ... the members-only Manhattan social club frequented by Kim Kardashian and New York City Mayor Eric Adams, were greeted with flutes of Champagne. Offerings of sliced raw tuna on crispy rice and roasted maitake mushrooms awaited them as heads turned to admire an Andy Warhol and a Keith Haring, while New Order throbbed in the background.
These "gasp, look at the fancy menus!" intros always serve the same purpose, which is to caricaturize the people involved as "out of touch rich guys".
There is plenty in what happened here to simply highlight the mistakes these people made. Plus, as other commenters have mentioned, the bigger issue which the article doesn't quite grasp is depreciation. I tend to immediately discount stories that start with "look at these fancy things rich people do" because it almost always indicates the article author is trying to get the facts to fit their predetermined narrative.
> ... the members-only Manhattan social club frequented by Kim Kardashian and New York City Mayor Eric Adams, were greeted with flutes of Champagne. Offerings of sliced raw tuna on crispy rice and roasted maitake mushrooms awaited them as heads turned to admire an Andy Warhol and a Keith Haring, while New Order throbbed in the background.
These "gasp, look at the fancy menus!" intros always serve the same purpose, which is to caricaturize the people involved as "out of touch rich guys".
There is plenty in what happened here to simply highlight the mistakes these people made. Plus, as other commenters have mentioned, the bigger issue which the article doesn't quite grasp is depreciation. I tend to immediately discount stories that start with "look at these fancy things rich people do" because it almost always indicates the article author is trying to get the facts to fit their predetermined narrative.
Yeah Tesla preferred 60 Hertz
About Scherr:
"One former colleague said he had off-the-charts “EQ and IQ.”
"Scherr didn’t want to give up his New York existence and move to Florida, where Hertz was based, and the board agreed that was fine"
About West:
"In December, GM dismissed him along with eight other executives in the struggling unit"
About O'Hara:
"The warnings Wagner and O’Hara had brushed off were proving all too prescient."
"Meanwhile, little of the $150 million in profit O’Hara forecast from rentals through Amex GBT had materialized, and O’Hara himself had moved to Italy"
What a joke these men are.
Mark Cuban often says on Shark Tank that every billionaire is just incredibly lucky and that luck doesn't translate to knowledge in another field. Yet year after year people give these "smart" men (mostly investment bankers) the reins of failing companies that fail even harder under their watch and they just golden parachute their way to another grift.
And the two "successes"? No numbers of course, just vague statements like this:
"Uber drivers have put more than 1 billion miles on EVs rented from Hertz. Carvana has helped the company recover more value from used vehicles."
"One former colleague said he had off-the-charts “EQ and IQ.”
"Scherr didn’t want to give up his New York existence and move to Florida, where Hertz was based, and the board agreed that was fine"
About West:
"In December, GM dismissed him along with eight other executives in the struggling unit"
About O'Hara:
"The warnings Wagner and O’Hara had brushed off were proving all too prescient."
"Meanwhile, little of the $150 million in profit O’Hara forecast from rentals through Amex GBT had materialized, and O’Hara himself had moved to Italy"
What a joke these men are.
Mark Cuban often says on Shark Tank that every billionaire is just incredibly lucky and that luck doesn't translate to knowledge in another field. Yet year after year people give these "smart" men (mostly investment bankers) the reins of failing companies that fail even harder under their watch and they just golden parachute their way to another grift.
And the two "successes"? No numbers of course, just vague statements like this:
"Uber drivers have put more than 1 billion miles on EVs rented from Hertz. Carvana has helped the company recover more value from used vehicles."