Keynes on the influence of furniture on love(adamtooze.substack.com)
adamtooze.substack.com
Keynes on the influence of furniture on love
https://adamtooze.substack.com/p/chartbook-322-can-we-consume-our
64 comments
I once met somebody on the train who lives in the Bay Area and told me that her dating experiences in the area with tech guys included more than one "guy who just has a mattress on the floor". If there's any takeaway from the 15 seconds you spent looking at this article and the comments, you should buy a bed frame. Any bedframe. Just take the mattress off the floor.
If you're on this site, you can afford one. Extra credit: the bottom of your mattress won't be all gross.
If you're on this site, you can afford one. Extra credit: the bottom of your mattress won't be all gross.
The other side of that coin is that if she can't tolerate mattress on floor to access tech money then maybe the other guy dodged a bullet too depending on what he's after. I found myself turning down the class intentionally a lot because my current income/wealth level exceeds the norm for my background at my age and I don't want to live with someone who doesn't share my social/cultural norms.
It reminds me of a passage in IIRC it was Keith Richards biography (maybe not him, but definitely one of the Rolling Stones) where he was flabbergast at what his wife (he married up in some ways) spent on a chandelier. Not that he couldn't afford it, but he just wasn't from the kind of background where you spend a bunch of money on a chandelier and was rather ticked off by the expense.
All that said, a f-ing bed frame seems like a pretty stupid thing to skimp on. You can get them, any pretty much every other piece of furniture, for free on CL or FBMP if you're not picky and don't mind waiting a big for something decent near you.
It reminds me of a passage in IIRC it was Keith Richards biography (maybe not him, but definitely one of the Rolling Stones) where he was flabbergast at what his wife (he married up in some ways) spent on a chandelier. Not that he couldn't afford it, but he just wasn't from the kind of background where you spend a bunch of money on a chandelier and was rather ticked off by the expense.
All that said, a f-ing bed frame seems like a pretty stupid thing to skimp on. You can get them, any pretty much every other piece of furniture, for free on CL or FBMP if you're not picky and don't mind waiting a big for something decent near you.
Re-read this post and seriously evaluate what's actually being described. Dodged a bullet from what? A low quality gold digger? Normal well adjusted people have standards and unless you're going to make some absent minded appeal to norms in other cultures one of those standards is an actual bed complete with a frame. It's a low bar to reach for.
From someone who is going to spend a lot more of his money than he is, on things he thinks are completely unnecessary.
It is simply a matter of utility.
Bed frames do not provide much utility, and cost money, which seperates me from my early retirement.
Tech bros are probably making this utilitarian decision more consciously than the woman was considering her own mate evaluation feature detectors.
A more intelligent, less shallow woman would have connected the dots. Had the male been percieved as sufficiently physically attractive she would have ignored the lack of bed anyways, and addressed the lack of aesthetics with communication like an adult human being.
I say this as a tech bro who wore ten year old clothes with holes the first time I met the girl who became my wife. The situation was resolved simply. I threw away the old ones, and I gave her a budget of $200. She took me shopping for outfits. It was fun.
You may want to reconsider your position on the matter. If someone rejects another human being due to not having a bed frame when they live alone that is sufficiently shallow that it indicates some inner growth is in order.
Tech bros are probably making this utilitarian decision more consciously than the woman was considering her own mate evaluation feature detectors.
A more intelligent, less shallow woman would have connected the dots. Had the male been percieved as sufficiently physically attractive she would have ignored the lack of bed anyways, and addressed the lack of aesthetics with communication like an adult human being.
I say this as a tech bro who wore ten year old clothes with holes the first time I met the girl who became my wife. The situation was resolved simply. I threw away the old ones, and I gave her a budget of $200. She took me shopping for outfits. It was fun.
You may want to reconsider your position on the matter. If someone rejects another human being due to not having a bed frame when they live alone that is sufficiently shallow that it indicates some inner growth is in order.
I honestly cannot tell whether this is an intentional troll meme attempt. This is just too good to be true.
A more intelligent, less shallow woman [would've seen past the lack of a bed frame]
[bed frames] separate me from my early retirement.
ahahahh so you will retire 15 minutes earlier after a lifetime of sleeping on the floor, what an intelligent trade-off
A more intelligent, less shallow woman [would've seen past the lack of a bed frame]
[bed frames] separate me from my early retirement.
ahahahh so you will retire 15 minutes earlier after a lifetime of sleeping on the floor, what an intelligent trade-off
It is not a joke or a troll.
I have made the choice to save a few hundred dollars here or there many thousands of times. It adds up. I do believe living frugally is virtuous.
I do think not acknowledging others care, sacrifice or not, for utility over aesthetic is shallow. I know people who would not have made such a silly judgement. I appreciate that quality in those people.
I have made the choice to save a few hundred dollars here or there many thousands of times. It adds up. I do believe living frugally is virtuous.
I do think not acknowledging others care, sacrifice or not, for utility over aesthetic is shallow. I know people who would not have made such a silly judgement. I appreciate that quality in those people.
Calling a woman shallow for being concerned about your sleeping conditions sure sounds like trolling.
It is disingenuous to call it "conditions" as though we were discussing a negative quality of sleep or negative health influence a merely unframed mattress would not realistically cause.
I think needless over-concern with aesthetics is a very common issue. I do equate it with shallowness. I think most people do consider it to be shallow.
I do think many of the worlds problems are caused by excessive attention to that which does not matter, and not enough attention to that which matters a lot.
It is a difference in values. To give context, I grew up poor. The first 16 years of my life I slept on futons on the floor. When I finally did have a typical american bed with frame, headboard, boxspring, and mattress, it made me uncomfortable.
I eventually gave away the headboard to a sibling. I value the extra few inches beyond the mattress and do not like hitting my head, or hanging my feet over the edge. The discomfort cost was not worth the aesthetic gain. (I didnt think the headboard really looked good anyways.)
If a woman rejects me solely for my well considered preference in sleeping platform, she is shallow. I would hope she cared for more important things such as the way we treat eachother, reliability, patience, etc. Moral virtue. Living inexpensively, being happy with less, the absence of vanity. These are good qualities. A good person will be able to recognize these, and love another for them.
I think needless over-concern with aesthetics is a very common issue. I do equate it with shallowness. I think most people do consider it to be shallow.
I do think many of the worlds problems are caused by excessive attention to that which does not matter, and not enough attention to that which matters a lot.
It is a difference in values. To give context, I grew up poor. The first 16 years of my life I slept on futons on the floor. When I finally did have a typical american bed with frame, headboard, boxspring, and mattress, it made me uncomfortable.
I eventually gave away the headboard to a sibling. I value the extra few inches beyond the mattress and do not like hitting my head, or hanging my feet over the edge. The discomfort cost was not worth the aesthetic gain. (I didnt think the headboard really looked good anyways.)
If a woman rejects me solely for my well considered preference in sleeping platform, she is shallow. I would hope she cared for more important things such as the way we treat eachother, reliability, patience, etc. Moral virtue. Living inexpensively, being happy with less, the absence of vanity. These are good qualities. A good person will be able to recognize these, and love another for them.
I remember the experiment a while ago with the ban on political topics on HN.
What this site more urgently needs is a ban on any discussion of sex or dating. It’s always pretty sick-making.
What this site more urgently needs is a ban on any discussion of sex or dating. It’s always pretty sick-making.
I do not see this as a political topic. I do not see this as a men versus women topic. I see it as a discussion of value, utility versus aesthetics. I do think people care too much for aesthetics at the expense of their own utility. I do think that condition is aptly called shallowness.
I didn't say that it was a political topic. It's a lot closer to being that than to being what you think it is, though.
Semantics
No, I really just didn't say that it was a political topic.
Ah I see. I misunderstood.
Why do you think posts that are of that type should be banned?
There's a de facto ban on discussion of anything even vaguely feminist such as pay differentials, it always gets flagged off the front page immediately. There's very, very few women posters.
Occasionally people post "population decline??" articles, which also suffer from lack of women participants, and deserve to get flagged off.
Occasionally people post "population decline??" articles, which also suffer from lack of women participants, and deserve to get flagged off.
A bed frame both increases the lifetime of a mattress, and the general cleanliness. This massive amount of round about thinking is pointless when your initial assessment of what’s going on is wrong.
I wouldn’t want to date someone who doesn’t have a bed frame not because not having some arbitrary furniture is weird, but because not having a bed frame is gross. And all these mental gymnastics you’re going on about saving $100 as someone who probably makes six figures screams to me that you have several massive misunderstandings about day to day living that will cause you serious health problems in the long run.
The last person I met that didn’t use a bed frame also used the dishes that he eats off to wash his outdoor boots.
I wouldn’t want to date someone who doesn’t have a bed frame not because not having some arbitrary furniture is weird, but because not having a bed frame is gross. And all these mental gymnastics you’re going on about saving $100 as someone who probably makes six figures screams to me that you have several massive misunderstandings about day to day living that will cause you serious health problems in the long run.
The last person I met that didn’t use a bed frame also used the dishes that he eats off to wash his outdoor boots.
I live in Japan. I sleep on on a big futon on the floor with my wife. Additionally our apartment is incredibly clean.
Most devs in the world do not make six figures. Many people who make six figures still unwisely live paycheck to paycheck. That is only in the US. Here in fukuoka the average dev pay is just over 2k a month. I make more than that, but I grew up poor so I save money.
I am not sure why you are so aggressive about bed frames. It is unreasonable to be this judgemental about something as minor as a bedframe.
I would like to reiterate. Any human, male or female, who rejects a mate based solely on their lack of bedframe is shallow. That person should reconsider their values.
Most devs in the world do not make six figures. Many people who make six figures still unwisely live paycheck to paycheck. That is only in the US. Here in fukuoka the average dev pay is just over 2k a month. I make more than that, but I grew up poor so I save money.
I am not sure why you are so aggressive about bed frames. It is unreasonable to be this judgemental about something as minor as a bedframe.
I would like to reiterate. Any human, male or female, who rejects a mate based solely on their lack of bedframe is shallow. That person should reconsider their values.
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FWIW a mattress on a hardwood floor can grow mold on the underside
You are in a lot of pain. I'm sorry to hear that.
> she can't tolerate mattress on floor to access tech money
What, is the money supposed to be under the mattress?
It's certainly a very clear signal that money - keeping it, not spending it - is the most important thing in your life. Which is of course a very clear signal that you're not going to make a person an important thing in your life.
What, is the money supposed to be under the mattress?
It's certainly a very clear signal that money - keeping it, not spending it - is the most important thing in your life. Which is of course a very clear signal that you're not going to make a person an important thing in your life.
Where did you grow up that to social norm is a bed with no frame?
Where ... social norm is a bed with no frame?
Poverty is one I've seen personally.
Recent flood victims is another but I think that's a riff on poverty. They have a zillion priorities for their meager dollars. They also didn't foresee being flooded 3x in 2 years.
Poverty is one I've seen personally.
Recent flood victims is another but I think that's a riff on poverty. They have a zillion priorities for their meager dollars. They also didn't foresee being flooded 3x in 2 years.
> The other side of that coin is that if she can't tolerate mattress on floor to access tech money
... I mean, this isn't most peoples' primary intention when dating.
... I mean, this isn't most peoples' primary intention when dating.
If you live in Japan or Korea it's normal to sleep on the floor. In Japan you have a room covered in tatami mats. At night you pull out the futon from the closet and sleep on it. You then put it back in the closet in the morning.
https://www.google.com/search?q=%E5%B8%83%E5%9B%A3&udm=2
Often you pull out a small table (kotatsu) and put it in the center of the room in the day.
https://www.google.com/search?q=%E3%81%93%E3%81%9F%E3%81%A4&...
Korea is the same except tatami mats are less common.
Of course now-a-days, lots of Japanese and Koreans sleep on beds but futon are not uncommon.
https://www.google.com/search?q=%E5%B8%83%E5%9B%A3&udm=2
Often you pull out a small table (kotatsu) and put it in the center of the room in the day.
https://www.google.com/search?q=%E3%81%93%E3%81%9F%E3%81%A4&...
Korea is the same except tatami mats are less common.
Of course now-a-days, lots of Japanese and Koreans sleep on beds but futon are not uncommon.
There’s a pretty fundamental difference between a Japanese / Korean style tatami bedroom and a Western style bed mattress without a bed frame.
> Extra credit: the bottom of your mattress won't be all gross.
That's the one big reason to me actually. I lived for years with a mattress on the floor. It was cool: really was. It wasn't about money: it was just a way to explain that I just didn't give a fuck about the way things were supposed to be. My cheap, used and beaten up Porsche 911 Carrera (another way to say fuck you) in the driveway and a mattress on the floor: that was my Hank Moody way of life (which btw predated the Hank Moody character).
People, upon seeing that, would understand there were exactly zero fucks given about the way society should be.
A mattress on the floor is a statement.
But a bedframe: it costs next to nothing. Heck, you can even build one yourself if your a bit of a DIYer and know what a dowel is. Stick your mattress on a bedframe. Buy a roomba: make sure it can vaccuum clean under the bed.
Believe me: been there, done that. A bedframe is cleaner. It's also more comfy.
Big bonus if that bedframe has got a headroom in alcantara or something: that is just smooth compared to the wall.
My wife since 15 y/o and mother to our 10 y/o kid? We met up when I had that ascetic way of life: three pairs of socks, three undies, an old beaten up sportscar and a mattress on the floor. And, yes, a semi-fancy stereo (not that I knew that Steve Jobs lived like that, I had no idea: I just happened back then, by chance, to stumble on a pair of Pierre-Etienne Leon speakers / aka "P-E Leon" : shittiest website there is for a high-end speakers brand I'd say).
This just made all nostalgic. I kinda wish I could re-live these moments again. But I take it it's just me getting old.
Upgraded the speakers. Upgraded the car. Put the mattress on a bedframe.
That's the one big reason to me actually. I lived for years with a mattress on the floor. It was cool: really was. It wasn't about money: it was just a way to explain that I just didn't give a fuck about the way things were supposed to be. My cheap, used and beaten up Porsche 911 Carrera (another way to say fuck you) in the driveway and a mattress on the floor: that was my Hank Moody way of life (which btw predated the Hank Moody character).
People, upon seeing that, would understand there were exactly zero fucks given about the way society should be.
A mattress on the floor is a statement.
But a bedframe: it costs next to nothing. Heck, you can even build one yourself if your a bit of a DIYer and know what a dowel is. Stick your mattress on a bedframe. Buy a roomba: make sure it can vaccuum clean under the bed.
Believe me: been there, done that. A bedframe is cleaner. It's also more comfy.
Big bonus if that bedframe has got a headroom in alcantara or something: that is just smooth compared to the wall.
My wife since 15 y/o and mother to our 10 y/o kid? We met up when I had that ascetic way of life: three pairs of socks, three undies, an old beaten up sportscar and a mattress on the floor. And, yes, a semi-fancy stereo (not that I knew that Steve Jobs lived like that, I had no idea: I just happened back then, by chance, to stumble on a pair of Pierre-Etienne Leon speakers / aka "P-E Leon" : shittiest website there is for a high-end speakers brand I'd say).
This just made all nostalgic. I kinda wish I could re-live these moments again. But I take it it's just me getting old.
Upgraded the speakers. Upgraded the car. Put the mattress on a bedframe.
I wouldn't suggest people "hack" self-care/hygeine habits like nesting to avoid turning off some prospective date or hookup.
The lady on the train isn't literally getting turned off by the mattress resting on the floor. They're getting turned off because the image they see represents someone deeply alienated from the instinctive desire to attend to one's space (nest).
The one neat trick of putting a mattress on the frame doesn't change that. It just leaves the visitor more lacking for words to describe what's unsettling them.
If you're just a 22 year old tech bro all in on your career and are proud of your aescetism, live as sparsely as you want.
At some point, though, you may find that taking an interest in your surroundings makes you feel better and gives you more resiliency, and that people respond positively to what that represents.
But don't bother cheating your way there. It will must confuse you when somebody shows up and doesn't fall for the hack.
The lady on the train isn't literally getting turned off by the mattress resting on the floor. They're getting turned off because the image they see represents someone deeply alienated from the instinctive desire to attend to one's space (nest).
The one neat trick of putting a mattress on the frame doesn't change that. It just leaves the visitor more lacking for words to describe what's unsettling them.
If you're just a 22 year old tech bro all in on your career and are proud of your aescetism, live as sparsely as you want.
At some point, though, you may find that taking an interest in your surroundings makes you feel better and gives you more resiliency, and that people respond positively to what that represents.
But don't bother cheating your way there. It will must confuse you when somebody shows up and doesn't fall for the hack.
Excellent point. And it doesn’t need to be much. If a person is really minimalistic, even a single piece of good-taste furniture would suffice.
Tired: mattress on floor
Wired: Eames chair next to mattress on floor.
Thank you both for the Wednesday laughs.
Wired: Eames chair next to mattress on floor.
Thank you both for the Wednesday laughs.
Tired: mattress on floor
Wired: futon on tatami, single ukiyo-e print on wall, otherwise clean white room. You need a pitch about the zen of space and the calming influence of Japanese design, but at least now you give off the impression of "weeb" rather than "homeless person in temporary accomodation".
Wired: futon on tatami, single ukiyo-e print on wall, otherwise clean white room. You need a pitch about the zen of space and the calming influence of Japanese design, but at least now you give off the impression of "weeb" rather than "homeless person in temporary accomodation".
Am I the only one who opted for the mattress-on-floor (MoF) strategy because I was too poor to get a good bedframe and the cheap bedframe squeaks heavily impacted my sleep and the sleep of those around me?
Steve Jobs famously started out like that, a mattress and a MASSIVE stereo.
Maybe they try to emulate their hero?
Maybe they try to emulate their hero?
It's like only wearing grey t-shirts thinking it'll make you the next Zuckerberg...
Jobs also had a long period where he wouldn't shower and was put on the night shift because he stunk so bad. Wonder if they'll try that.
That usually turns out well, doesn't it?
We had one such case at our startup in San Francisco. Several coworkers came together to get him a bed frame as a group birthday gift.
[deleted]
I just had a mattress on the floor at one point in my life. I found the mattress in an alley, before that I was sleeping on the floor, no mattress. I dragged the mattress from the alley into my apartment. It was a major improvement in my sleep situation.
Didn't really seem to have an effect one way or the other on my love life. I was doing OK.
That was back when I was a poor. I learned to code, I made money. I have a bed frame now. It's awesome. Let's fuck.
Didn't really seem to have an effect one way or the other on my love life. I was doing OK.
That was back when I was a poor. I learned to code, I made money. I have a bed frame now. It's awesome. Let's fuck.
The first several bedframes I owned were shoddy enough that my first couple girlfriends and I managed to break them and I had to end up putting my mattress on the floor. I ended up in a long term relationship with the one who ended up becoming my wife before getting a working bedframe.
I can do better, sometimes I sleep on a bamboo mat. When I have a migraine, I can only sleep on a hard surface. I suppose I could put the mat on a frame. ;)
Also, why bring a date to your house when you only have a floor mattress?
Also, why bring a date to your house when you only have a floor mattress?
TBH Bamboo mat sounds a lot better than a mattress on the floor.
The first one is a bit ascetic. The second one ... sloppy? IDK, but a mattress on the floor is repulsive to me as well, and I am a male with zero gold-digging tendencies. Perhaps because every mattress person I can think of was a person with a dirty, somewhat smelly and musky mattress, and the same was true about their clothing etc.
The first one is a bit ascetic. The second one ... sloppy? IDK, but a mattress on the floor is repulsive to me as well, and I am a male with zero gold-digging tendencies. Perhaps because every mattress person I can think of was a person with a dirty, somewhat smelly and musky mattress, and the same was true about their clothing etc.
By bizarre coincidence, I actually lost a sexual partner right when I bought my current bed frame.
Did you accidentally throw them out with the old frame?
> sexual partner
This is painful to read. I hope my sons know the joy of having wives, and my daughters know the joy of having husbands.
This is painful to read. I hope my sons know the joy of having wives, and my daughters know the joy of having husbands.
Some people have casual sex. Nothing wrong with that.
And I hope they do so after having had many sexual partners before, so they have some experience before choosing a wife/husband.
Eh. Good sex is important, but I don't think that you need a lot of notches on your bedpost to have or recognize it.
But it's such a waste of space. I spend only a small part of my day on it. (Roll up futon).
I, uh, might have slept on a matress on top of a rug for a number of years. It was fine and extremely clean. Multiple sexual partners, no complaints, but you have me wondering about the what ifs.
My parents are almost-hoarders and I’m almost-ocd if it matters. Love me an austere room.
My parents are almost-hoarders and I’m almost-ocd if it matters. Love me an austere room.
I’d recommend a Japanese platform bed.
Everyone talking about the bed frame, not enough people talking about the Bloomsbury "obscene mural".
engineer_22(1)
Mae West was once profiled by some show that went and showed the interiors of homes of celebrities. There was a large mirror or mirrored ceiling or something in her bedroom and the interviewer asked about it, why it was there. And she said "So I can see how I'm doing."
The episode never aired. That was very TMI for the era.