Open Sauce is a confoundingly brilliant Bay Area event(jeffgeerling.com)
jeffgeerling.com
Open Sauce is a confoundingly brilliant Bay Area event
https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2025/open-sauce-confoundingly-brilliant-bay-area-event
216 comments
> The panels I did see, the moderator (William Osman) didn't do a very good job moving through questions, so very few people got to actually ask anything.
William Osman’s style is the anti Mark Rober: His channel is about winging it with projects that halfway work if they’re lucky, while being kind of awkward and mocking everyone and himself. Moderating the panel and getting questions answered probably wasn’t their goal. The goal was to be kind of entertaining in the style that their viewers are familiar with.
Would be frustrating for someone to go into one of those panels expecting a traditional efficiently moderated panel.
> I also felt very strange that the only place I saw kids was lining up to ask YouTubers questions during the panels. I couldn't help but think about how many kids want to be YouTubers when they grow up - it seems like YouTuber idolism was the main event and not any of the awesome booths by non-famous people.
Open Sauce was supposed to be inspired by two other conferences: Maker Faire and Vidcon. Vidcon was primarily a YouTube and later TikTok conference. Open Sauce is basically VidCon’s successor in California with some maker booths added in and an emphasis on maker channels. It’s still heavily a YouTube conference though and the primary focus is YouTuber audiences, which is where they do much of their marketing.
Meeting your favorite YouTubers is one of the main selling points of the conference. I wouldn’t read too much into the fact that you saw kids excited about their favorite YouTubers at a conference literally pitched on YouTube as a way for them to meet their favorite YouTubers.
William Osman’s style is the anti Mark Rober: His channel is about winging it with projects that halfway work if they’re lucky, while being kind of awkward and mocking everyone and himself. Moderating the panel and getting questions answered probably wasn’t their goal. The goal was to be kind of entertaining in the style that their viewers are familiar with.
Would be frustrating for someone to go into one of those panels expecting a traditional efficiently moderated panel.
> I also felt very strange that the only place I saw kids was lining up to ask YouTubers questions during the panels. I couldn't help but think about how many kids want to be YouTubers when they grow up - it seems like YouTuber idolism was the main event and not any of the awesome booths by non-famous people.
Open Sauce was supposed to be inspired by two other conferences: Maker Faire and Vidcon. Vidcon was primarily a YouTube and later TikTok conference. Open Sauce is basically VidCon’s successor in California with some maker booths added in and an emphasis on maker channels. It’s still heavily a YouTube conference though and the primary focus is YouTuber audiences, which is where they do much of their marketing.
Meeting your favorite YouTubers is one of the main selling points of the conference. I wouldn’t read too much into the fact that you saw kids excited about their favorite YouTubers at a conference literally pitched on YouTube as a way for them to meet their favorite YouTubers.
> Moderating the panel and getting questions answered probably wasn’t their goal.
> Meeting your favorite YouTubers is one of the main selling points of the conference.
These statements seem at odds with each other. If meeting your favorite YouTubers is the main selling point, then IMO they did a pretty bad job with the fan service.
> Meeting your favorite YouTubers is one of the main selling points of the conference.
These statements seem at odds with each other. If meeting your favorite YouTubers is the main selling point, then IMO they did a pretty bad job with the fan service.
Let me put it this way: They put on a show that matches their style on YouTube and podcasts.
The few fans who get to ask questions aren’t the ones being served. They’re entertaining the mass of people who came to see more of the same content on their YouTube channels, which is disordered chaos where they joke with each other, make fun of things, and joke around.
It’s a continuation of their style everywhere else, and it’s what many of their fans came to see.
If you were expecting a traditional panel style where each question-asker got to be the focus and drive the show for a minute, that’s not their style.
I’m not saying it’s good or bad, it’s just different from what you might expect from a more formal conference.
The few fans who get to ask questions aren’t the ones being served. They’re entertaining the mass of people who came to see more of the same content on their YouTube channels, which is disordered chaos where they joke with each other, make fun of things, and joke around.
It’s a continuation of their style everywhere else, and it’s what many of their fans came to see.
If you were expecting a traditional panel style where each question-asker got to be the focus and drive the show for a minute, that’s not their style.
I’m not saying it’s good or bad, it’s just different from what you might expect from a more formal conference.
Can't it be disordered, interactive chaos? What's the point of even showing up in person just to be in view-only mode?
Like I said, I’m saying it’s good or bad or right or wrong.
I do think you’re not the target audience, though. A lot of my maker friends also skip Open Sauce because it’s more about the YouTube personalities than about science and makers
I do think you’re not the target audience, though. A lot of my maker friends also skip Open Sauce because it’s more about the YouTube personalities than about science and makers
I think they're missing out; groups like FOSSF brought a whole quasi-working garage chip fab (they're working on an 8086 working chip, slowly but surely), the creator of ADSBee was there, Meshtastic had a great booth and folks talking about wireless routing and antenna design, etc; it's like a science fair for adults, though there's a bit of the weird Vidcon vibes. You can ignore that part completely, and have a great weekend.
There's also a whole robotics, rocket building, and gaming area, and booths ranged from artsy to extremely technical (CuriousMarc was live debugging some old HP oscilloscopes, nearby some Apollo hardware sitting out on a table).
There's also a whole robotics, rocket building, and gaming area, and booths ranged from artsy to extremely technical (CuriousMarc was live debugging some old HP oscilloscopes, nearby some Apollo hardware sitting out on a table).
I don't think they're at odds. You can do lots of meeting but that happens outside the panels.
I love the concept of expecting Big Willy to be an effective panel moderator. At times the guy can barely moderate his own mind (which is why I adore him).
This wasn't billed as a career fair. Why are so many comments criticizing as if it were?
And on the subject of careers. What's inherently negative about kids wanting to be a YouTuber? For every kid chasing fame, there is probably an equal who just wants to share their passion with an audience.
This wasn't billed as a career fair. Why are so many comments criticizing as if it were?
And on the subject of careers. What's inherently negative about kids wanting to be a YouTuber? For every kid chasing fame, there is probably an equal who just wants to share their passion with an audience.
> I love the concept of expecting Big Willy to be an effective panel moderator. At times the guy can barely moderate his own mind (which is why I adore him).
This encapsulates the disconnect with Open Sauce: It’s pitched as a big Maker Fair crossed with VidCon, but in practice a lot of it revolves around William Osman and his entertainment style.
If someone who adores William Osman and his content went to a panel like this they’d be entertained.
If someone who went there expecting to hear from the makers and have questions answered, they’d be frustrated by the way the moderator became the centerpiece and the questions felt like fodder for the moderator to riff on.
This is the disconnect that has turned off a lot of my maker friends from Open Sauce: It’s a fun idea, but the actual conference leans toward being a William Osman centered show with YouTuber friends doing guest appearances. That’s great for people who are into that and obviously a lot of people enjoy it, but the maker side of the conference feels like something of a sideshow at times
This encapsulates the disconnect with Open Sauce: It’s pitched as a big Maker Fair crossed with VidCon, but in practice a lot of it revolves around William Osman and his entertainment style.
If someone who adores William Osman and his content went to a panel like this they’d be entertained.
If someone who went there expecting to hear from the makers and have questions answered, they’d be frustrated by the way the moderator became the centerpiece and the questions felt like fodder for the moderator to riff on.
This is the disconnect that has turned off a lot of my maker friends from Open Sauce: It’s a fun idea, but the actual conference leans toward being a William Osman centered show with YouTuber friends doing guest appearances. That’s great for people who are into that and obviously a lot of people enjoy it, but the maker side of the conference feels like something of a sideshow at times
I disagree. As I see it, it's pitched as a William Osman-inspired event. I wouldn't expect it to be a well oiled machine. In fact I'd expect it to be exactly how you framed it in the last paragraph.
Personally, I can't help but feel like those wanting it to be something else are responsible for projecting those desires on to the event, and not the other way around.
Personally, I can't help but feel like those wanting it to be something else are responsible for projecting those desires on to the event, and not the other way around.
> As I see it, it's pitched as a William Osman-inspired event. I wouldn't expect it to be a well oiled machine. In fact I'd expect it to be exactly how you framed it in the last paragraph.
This all makes sense for people who discovered it and hear about it through William Osman.
More broadly, it’s not marketed as a William Osman centered event. Spend some time on their website and there’s barely any mention of William Osman. Instead it’s about education, growing communities, and building careers: https://opensauce.com/about/
So for people in the in-group who rally around William Osman, the chaos all makes sense.
For people who stumbled upon the conference as a new maker fare with cool exhibits, it’s weird to show up and experience the vibe that orbits around William Osman and his friends.
Not suggesting it’s good or bad, but the disconnect is obvious throughout this thread. Even the Open Sauce website focuses on things like career building, but then people in this thread are being criticized for thinking the conference has anything to do with career building.
This all makes sense for people who discovered it and hear about it through William Osman.
More broadly, it’s not marketed as a William Osman centered event. Spend some time on their website and there’s barely any mention of William Osman. Instead it’s about education, growing communities, and building careers: https://opensauce.com/about/
So for people in the in-group who rally around William Osman, the chaos all makes sense.
For people who stumbled upon the conference as a new maker fare with cool exhibits, it’s weird to show up and experience the vibe that orbits around William Osman and his friends.
Not suggesting it’s good or bad, but the disconnect is obvious throughout this thread. Even the Open Sauce website focuses on things like career building, but then people in this thread are being criticized for thinking the conference has anything to do with career building.
The about page you linked consists almost entirely of a single link to an article in Forbes titled "meet the youtube stars bringing their crazy creations to Open Sauce"
Respectfully, I fail to see how that gives folks anything but the expectation it's centered around YouTubers.
Respectfully, I fail to see how that gives folks anything but the expectation it's centered around YouTubers.
Can confirm, I've heard of OpenSauce a good few times and had no idea it was so Osman-centric. :D
To be fair, I don’t think that was the original intent
But when the creator of a conference has such a large following and primarily promotes through their YouTube channel, a lot of attendees will come to expect that person to play a large role in their experience.
It’s hard to break free of that.
But when the creator of a conference has such a large following and primarily promotes through their YouTube channel, a lot of attendees will come to expect that person to play a large role in their experience.
It’s hard to break free of that.
I'm making observations, not suggestions.
And one of those observations is that it was a very weird vibe to see dozens of 6 year olds line up excited to ask a question, and only 3 or 4 getting the opportunity.
And one of those observations is that it was a very weird vibe to see dozens of 6 year olds line up excited to ask a question, and only 3 or 4 getting the opportunity.
Having a science/tech/maker YouTuber as a role model is arguably better than, say, a fashion model, an actor, a populist podcaster, or a footballer, no?
You have YouTubers versions of all these, plus more (YouTube body builder, YouTube gamer, etc). The difference is people want to be famous on YouTube, instead.
Most YouTubers that kids use as role models are simply questionable entertainers and pranksters, so I’d say on average, it is much worse than having a footballer as a role model…
Most YouTubers that kids use as role models are simply questionable entertainers and pranksters, so I’d say on average, it is much worse than having a footballer as a role model…
I would say no. I don't think one can adopt this stance without thinking less of people who pursue those activities. And I'd rather show kids humility, as opposed to superiority.
I do find it tiring that tech oriented people still feel the need to denigrate people who are in the arts or athletes (tbh lumping them in with podcast grifters may be the greatest insult). Children can and should have a variety of role models.
Especially when we have seen over and over again that some youtubers (not pointing at any at this even specifically) have shown themselves to be of quite low character.
Especially when we have seen over and over again that some youtubers (not pointing at any at this even specifically) have shown themselves to be of quite low character.
There are plenty of pro sports icons that have low character. Good character is not a qualification to put a ball through a goal, hole, hoop or elsewhere, in pro sports or on youtube.
I don't know any "tech oriented" people that put down anyone "in the arts", but most of them have no interest in sports. That doesn't mean they denigrate anyone in sports, but as for myself I do find humanity's fascination with putting balls into goals, holes, hoops and elsewhere a bit tiring, and I think it's a bit of a waste of humanity to put so much importance on putting balls into goals, holes, hoops or elsewhere, but we are all free to have our own opinions.
I don't know any "tech oriented" people that put down anyone "in the arts", but most of them have no interest in sports. That doesn't mean they denigrate anyone in sports, but as for myself I do find humanity's fascination with putting balls into goals, holes, hoops and elsewhere a bit tiring, and I think it's a bit of a waste of humanity to put so much importance on putting balls into goals, holes, hoops or elsewhere, but we are all free to have our own opinions.
> I think it's a bit of a waste of humanity to put so much importance on putting balls into goals, holes, hoops or elsewhere
Sports can be seen as something of an improvement over more lethal forms of inter-group conflict.
Fortunately tech oriented folks have invented "e-sports", which are competitions based on pressing keys on a keyboard or buttons on a game controller, and possibly moving and clicking a mouse in order to affect pixels on a screen.
Sports can be seen as something of an improvement over more lethal forms of inter-group conflict.
Fortunately tech oriented folks have invented "e-sports", which are competitions based on pressing keys on a keyboard or buttons on a game controller, and possibly moving and clicking a mouse in order to affect pixels on a screen.
Video games are even more pointless than sports.
What is your opinion on chess?
Pushing pieces around a board is not all that interesting to me, no board game is. YMMV.
What does interest me is solving real problems, not manufactured problems.
What does interest me is solving real problems, not manufactured problems.
Games and game-like systems provide many benefits:
Simulations are particularly valuable because they allow you to test out strategies for risky activities (wars, investments or business ventures, gambling, etc.) without actual risk.
Twitch/reflex games like first-person shooters can improve eye-hand coordination. It's a fun recreational and social activity that can also help surgeons make fewer mistakes.
Narrative games are largely a modern form of storytelling, one of humanity's oldest and most important cultural practices.
Social games can build connection and teamwork; cozy games can facilitate relaxation; construction games can facilitate creative expression and spatial reasoning....
The reason people like games is because they are fun; but the reason games are fun is that they engage - and often challenge - the abilities that we use to interact with the real world.
Simulations are particularly valuable because they allow you to test out strategies for risky activities (wars, investments or business ventures, gambling, etc.) without actual risk.
Twitch/reflex games like first-person shooters can improve eye-hand coordination. It's a fun recreational and social activity that can also help surgeons make fewer mistakes.
Narrative games are largely a modern form of storytelling, one of humanity's oldest and most important cultural practices.
Social games can build connection and teamwork; cozy games can facilitate relaxation; construction games can facilitate creative expression and spatial reasoning....
The reason people like games is because they are fun; but the reason games are fun is that they engage - and often challenge - the abilities that we use to interact with the real world.
>The panels I did see, the moderator (William Osman) didn't do a very good job moving through questions, so very few people got to actually ask anything.
Panels are a pretty mixed bag at conferences in general. So many panelists are reiterating talking points, they're repetitious a lot of the time, they're too polite and in agreement, and audience questions are often in the vein of not so much a question but a comment. I have seen good panels but I often avoid them as a rule.
Panels are a pretty mixed bag at conferences in general. So many panelists are reiterating talking points, they're repetitious a lot of the time, they're too polite and in agreement, and audience questions are often in the vein of not so much a question but a comment. I have seen good panels but I often avoid them as a rule.
The real draw of OpenSauce is that it is really mostly a con for the creators, and that the public is invited to some capacity is just a side thing.
The after party is where the real fun begins. Playing with dangerous high-energy devices? Hell yes.
The after party is where the real fun begins. Playing with dangerous high-energy devices? Hell yes.
I've noticed this as well, past couple of years it has turned into more panel/ytuber focused, less about the actual projects showcased on the ground floor. Not to mention, it is pricing out many from attending.
I agree that it was a bit meh, maker faire with a small side of youtubers is an accurate description but overall I enjoyed it and there were definitely some cool booths. Saturday was also ridiculously busy making it hard to navigate and interact with folks, Sunday was much better in that regard.
Is it a kid friendly event for a 8 year old who doesn't know any YouTubers? Like we he have fun seeing all the maker stuff?
I took my 7 and 6 year old and they loved it! We spent all our time looking at projects and booths. They have no interest in the talks.
With that said, there are not that many kids below highschool age that were in attendance. It is more geared to older kids/adults. But I do think there are lots of things to see there for kids. Probably the higher entrance fee reduces this a bit as well.
With that said, you want to pay close attention to your small children, as some of the exhibits are not super kid safe. But that is part of the fun!
There is a lot of variability in what you see as well. Some tables have incredible cutting edge projects, and other are exciting for a highschooler. Some are amazing highschool/middle school projects that the builders are really passionate about, but might not wow you technically.
Every year I find an amazing creator there, where I bring in their work to our house for the family to build/play with. Last year we found https://www.trackstacker.net/ which has provided hours of fun over the last 12 months. And this year we found https://professorboots.com 3d printed construction equipment.
With that said, you want to pay close attention to your small children, as some of the exhibits are not super kid safe. But that is part of the fun!
There is a lot of variability in what you see as well. Some tables have incredible cutting edge projects, and other are exciting for a highschooler. Some are amazing highschool/middle school projects that the builders are really passionate about, but might not wow you technically.
Every year I find an amazing creator there, where I bring in their work to our house for the family to build/play with. Last year we found https://www.trackstacker.net/ which has provided hours of fun over the last 12 months. And this year we found https://professorboots.com 3d printed construction equipment.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Leaning towards yes now!
> maker faire but there happens to be a stage next door with YouTubers
Sounds pretty bad...
Sounds pretty bad...
For context, the parent commenter is an economist, not a maker/engineer.
Who's an economist? Parent comment is from hamandcheese, who seems to be a software developer https://hamon.cc/ and the article is by Jeff Geerling who is I guess most known for RPi hacks but has a devops background https://github.com/geerlingguy
There's some guy that also goes by hamandcheese that's an economist https://x.com/hamandcheese that I have gotten mixed up with this guy.
There isn't a whole lot left in the US economy to aspire to. Do you think wanting to be a day trader is better? Should they try to get a professional engineering job and join the 50% of graduates who are unemployed a year after graduating?
> Should they try to get a professional engineering job and join the 50% of graduates who are unemployed a year after graduating?
The graduate unemployment rate is not that high. Did you perhaps see the viral Tweets TikToks or Reddit posts going around recently based on the article that got the decimal point wrong and overestimated it by an order of magnitude?
The graduate unemployment rate is not that high. Did you perhaps see the viral Tweets TikToks or Reddit posts going around recently based on the article that got the decimal point wrong and overestimated it by an order of magnitude?
As a teacher I have become more skeptical about whole maker movement. Don't get me wrong - I really appreciate what has become possible. I couldn't even dream about most of it when I grew up in seventies in Soviet Union. I use a lot of open source hardware and the results maker movement myself as a hobbyist and as a teacher.
But the problem is that while kids like it a lot, it doesn't translate to engineering careers. Kids don't want to become engineers as result, they want to become content creators, tinkerers etc. Even rather good students with a lot of potential see all this engineering stuff more as a media career or a fun hobby.
PS. I don't say the engineering hobby isn't cool and fun. I don't say that maker movement doesn't produce incredibly cool and deep stuff. I'm not even saying that it's the only reason why there is a shortage of engineers. But it's certainly contributing because I see it.
I'm a member of local engineering community and I see a lot of stuff like the quality of civil engineering sinking and we're all paying for mistakes in it. I see a lot of local production closing only because all R&D engineers are 60+ and planning to retire.
But the problem is that while kids like it a lot, it doesn't translate to engineering careers. Kids don't want to become engineers as result, they want to become content creators, tinkerers etc. Even rather good students with a lot of potential see all this engineering stuff more as a media career or a fun hobby.
PS. I don't say the engineering hobby isn't cool and fun. I don't say that maker movement doesn't produce incredibly cool and deep stuff. I'm not even saying that it's the only reason why there is a shortage of engineers. But it's certainly contributing because I see it.
I'm a member of local engineering community and I see a lot of stuff like the quality of civil engineering sinking and we're all paying for mistakes in it. I see a lot of local production closing only because all R&D engineers are 60+ and planning to retire.
Is having more tinkerers or Bill Nye's really a bad thing?
From what I’ve seen at maker and science fairs, these events often attract students who feel overlooked in schools that heavily prioritize sports. How many schools have pristine football fields, while the physics teacher is spending money out of their own pocket to build hands-on experiment kits, just to show students that physics is more than what’s in a textbook? (That was the case for my dad)
These fairs open kids eyes to a broader world. One that celebrates creativity, problem-solving, and scientific curiosity.
Not every student needs to become an engineer. What matters is that they feel hopeful about the future and engaged in something positive, instead of turning to drugs or escapism.
From what I’ve seen at maker and science fairs, these events often attract students who feel overlooked in schools that heavily prioritize sports. How many schools have pristine football fields, while the physics teacher is spending money out of their own pocket to build hands-on experiment kits, just to show students that physics is more than what’s in a textbook? (That was the case for my dad)
These fairs open kids eyes to a broader world. One that celebrates creativity, problem-solving, and scientific curiosity.
Not every student needs to become an engineer. What matters is that they feel hopeful about the future and engaged in something positive, instead of turning to drugs or escapism.
This is depressingly common, and sadly the casualties usually don’t stop at STEM classes but include most other subjects too. I’m not going to say that sports aren’t important in their own right, but it really bums me out that other classes are so often getting neglected (and in some cases shuttered) in their favor.
I've seen STEAM and SHTEAM tossed around as they add art and history to the mix. It's clear at this point that sports were a mistake.
In my hometown the football team never got lavish treatment (but I am aware of that problem in the midwest/south particularly), but what upset me so much was seeing the salaries paid to the school superintendents. In a modest CoL area, a school superintendent does not need to be making $600k+. There should be a salary cap on jobs like that because the extra money does not add value.
> In a modest CoL area, a school superintendent does not need to be making $600k+. There should be a salary cap on jobs like that because the extra money does not add value.
It's especially disgusting when you realize just how little teachers are paid. Where I live the superintendent makes ~$300k. Average teacher salary? $49k-$65k. This is a HCoL area too, you can't live on that.
It's especially disgusting when you realize just how little teachers are paid. Where I live the superintendent makes ~$300k. Average teacher salary? $49k-$65k. This is a HCoL area too, you can't live on that.
As someone with family who used to be a teacher, yes their low compensation is infuriating, especially when speaking about those who deeply care about their work and its impact on kids. Their workload is high to start out with and only becomes that much greater when they go out of their way to make sure their classes are well attended to and prospering.
>escapism
A couple of years ago I relized that games have become a religion for many young people. I have made legitimate critical comments about gaming that are resposponded to witb a viritol I only see matched by political flame wars. Its nearly a "taboo" subject for them to be critical of the game or industry.
A couple of years ago I relized that games have become a religion for many young people. I have made legitimate critical comments about gaming that are resposponded to witb a viritol I only see matched by political flame wars. Its nearly a "taboo" subject for them to be critical of the game or industry.
There’s a reason Microsoft and Tencent have been acquiring game studios like crazy. It’s a direct tap into the youth.
Exactly, well said. Events like this -- and teachers like your dad! -- influence kids in ways that are even more important than career orientation. Not every student is going to become a scientist or engineer, but almost all of them will become taxpayers and voters.
Bill Nye was an aerospace mechanical engineer before he got into SciComm.
I think it's important that there be a path from tinkering into engineering, if the individual desires it, perhaps in addition to "just go to college."
I think it's important that there be a path from tinkering into engineering, if the individual desires it, perhaps in addition to "just go to college."
Nye also was a comedian right out of college [0], and was interested in doing a science television show ("content" lol) from pretty early on.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Nye#Comedy
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Nye#Comedy
> But the problem is that while kids like it a lot, it doesn't translate to engineering careers.
Absolutely baffling comment.
Like if kids started eating healthy and the complaint was 'yea, but they're not interested in growing up to be professional nutrionists'
Absolutely baffling comment.
Like if kids started eating healthy and the complaint was 'yea, but they're not interested in growing up to be professional nutrionists'
But when instead they want to become broscience bloggers and influencers and sell healthy eating courses, that's a problem, to put it mildly.
It’s the end result of building a system of engagement over meaningful interaction. The more time spent watching ads disguised as content, the greater the profits.
Also don't get me started on parasocial relationships on twitch outcompeting real relationships.
A lack of critical thinking skills is a fundamental problem, but that is a threat to government and corporations.
People have lost the ability to distinguish signal from noise. We have been programmed to chase incorrect proxies for good!
People have lost the ability to distinguish signal from noise. We have been programmed to chase incorrect proxies for good!
The problem is precisely that they’re not eating healthy. They’re getting into talking about it instead.
> But the problem is that while kids like it a lot, it doesn't translate to engineering careers.
Gross.
Maybe people should be able to enjoy doing things. Not every moment of child rearing needs to be dedicated to maximizing shareholder value.
And maybe it would be good to extend that attitude into adulthood.
Gross.
Maybe people should be able to enjoy doing things. Not every moment of child rearing needs to be dedicated to maximizing shareholder value.
And maybe it would be good to extend that attitude into adulthood.
Engineering is gross? Or the idea of promoting engineering is gross? Please explain.
Engineering was my ticket for my transition from farm boy to lifelong steady employment with good pay and benefits.
I chose the engineering path because I like to build things, and I’ve been fortunate enough to be able to do that as a career.
Engineering was my ticket for my transition from farm boy to lifelong steady employment with good pay and benefits.
I chose the engineering path because I like to build things, and I’ve been fortunate enough to be able to do that as a career.
The idea that a kid can't play without some tangible end goal of employment is what's gross. Not the activity, or the underlying discipline (engineering, in this case).
A kid will eventually need a job and it's the opposite of gross for them to turn a childhood hobby into a career.
Much more gross to end up doing something they don't like because they never got to try it out...
Much more gross to end up doing something they don't like because they never got to try it out...
And after being exposed, deciding they enjoy it, but would rather make a living elsewhere -- does that mean the hobby was a failure?
There's nothing wrong with turning something into a career, but turning every action into career chasing is saddening. It's pretty gross to leave kids thinking they can't just enjoy something without juicing it for cash.
There's nothing wrong with turning something into a career, but turning every action into career chasing is saddening. It's pretty gross to leave kids thinking they can't just enjoy something without juicing it for cash.
> And after being exposed, deciding they enjoy it, but would rather make a living elsewhere -- does that mean the hobby was a failure?
If they try a hobby for a while and give up on it because they don't enjoy it enough, then yes. That seems like a reasonable definition for "failure."
Nothing wrong with failing - in your career, hobbies, relationships, or whatever else. Sometimes EQ means recognizing that you should stop beating a dead horse.
If they try a hobby for a while and give up on it because they don't enjoy it enough, then yes. That seems like a reasonable definition for "failure."
Nothing wrong with failing - in your career, hobbies, relationships, or whatever else. Sometimes EQ means recognizing that you should stop beating a dead horse.
Man I agree whole heartedly. Failure is a part of life, embrace it. There is no shame, you'll eventually find something you do enjoy.
There's more to life than a career.
There's more to life than a career.
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Yes, and us adults also struggle with this. Look at hustle culture where every hobby is turned into some money making side gig. You like painting? Why isn’t your art on Etsy? Like working out? Become a personal trainer. Make an app for yourself / friends? How you going to monetize or add ads? It’s okay to enjoy hobbies without a profit seeking motive.
You missed the point, it has nothing to do with careers specifically. It’s that it doesn’t encourage engineering at all, which is why it doesn’t result in engineering careers.
Since such a sentiment was never expressed here, your comment is a non-sequitur.
I suppose you're right. And in a similar vein, the problem with toasting s'mores around a campfire is that while kids like it a lot, it doesn't necessarily translate to park ranger careers.
We should really reform camping to optimize the career funnel.
We should really reform camping to optimize the career funnel.
Not op but I interpreted the gross part to be the idea engineering is the end all be all of careers and more importantly can't simply just be a creative outlet for some folks.
they are saying the idea that any get-together should be a working formula mostly for preparing kids for work instead of being who they want to be, is gross. I mostly agree.
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> Engineering is gross? Or the idea of promoting engineering is gross? Please explain.
Huh? I can't think of a more disingenuous interpretation of GP's comment.
Huh? I can't think of a more disingenuous interpretation of GP's comment.
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If everything on show at open sauce were those stupid 3D printed dragons I'd agree with you. But the maker movement is massive and interesting and goes very very deep.
You can self-learn as much about engineering as you'd learn at university. Most kids eventually pivot from wanting to be astronauts/influencers to something more realistic.
IMO tinkering is an amazing hobby which will benefit you in whatever direction your career ends up going in.
You can self-learn as much about engineering as you'd learn at university. Most kids eventually pivot from wanting to be astronauts/influencers to something more realistic.
IMO tinkering is an amazing hobby which will benefit you in whatever direction your career ends up going in.
I don't see how you go from "it doesn't cause engineering careers" to "it's one of the reasons there's a shortage of engineers".
> But the problem is that while kids like it a lot, it doesn't translate to engineering careers.
I think there has always been that though. When having a guitar was cool and people thought they'd be famous doing it. Of course 0.00001% actually managed it, but some craft out a career in music or related areas such as being studio engineers etc. (I did)
And for some it shows that it is possible, that people like them can be enabled and make their own stuff.
It might be that they're are organisations needed to bridge this new gap and get people into more formal engineering, but they'll also hopefully realise that people like them might work one day at top tier engineering companies.
I think there has always been that though. When having a guitar was cool and people thought they'd be famous doing it. Of course 0.00001% actually managed it, but some craft out a career in music or related areas such as being studio engineers etc. (I did)
And for some it shows that it is possible, that people like them can be enabled and make their own stuff.
It might be that they're are organisations needed to bridge this new gap and get people into more formal engineering, but they'll also hopefully realise that people like them might work one day at top tier engineering companies.
I don't think the fact that you can make fairly serious mechatronic devices with pocket money can conceivably be a bad thing for engineering as a discipline. However this does mean there are a lot of people that own a 3d printer that will never be good engineers.
I think 98% of 3D printers go towards printing trinkets for organization and figurines.
But I'm glad to be able to get into a 3D printer for an affordable price to do the other things. Probably wouldn't have happened without the mass(ish) market adoption.
But I'm glad to be able to get into a 3D printer for an affordable price to do the other things. Probably wouldn't have happened without the mass(ish) market adoption.
Oh absolutely, I flatter myself to think I use them for "serious engineering", and I am well aware of my debt to Warhammer players who don't want to pay Games Workshop prices.
> Even rather good students with a lot of potential see all this engineering stuff more as a media career or a fun hobby.
This seems positive, no?
I love the idea that young people want to make stuff and tinker in their free time.
This seems positive, no?
I love the idea that young people want to make stuff and tinker in their free time.
> they want to become content creators, tinkerers etc.
Because there's no incentive alignment in the market to cooperate on larger works.
I've been grinding away to solve this exact problem. https://prizeforge.com/vision (don't log in yet. deploying things and everything will be deleted)
Because there's no incentive alignment in the market to cooperate on larger works.
I've been grinding away to solve this exact problem. https://prizeforge.com/vision (don't log in yet. deploying things and everything will be deleted)
> it doesn't translate to engineering careers.
'Shortage' of US engineers is same as 'shortage' of developers - artificially engineered by off-shoring and importing foreign labor via H1B etc.
There are jobs, there just aren't jobs that want to pay well..
'Shortage' of US engineers is same as 'shortage' of developers - artificially engineered by off-shoring and importing foreign labor via H1B etc.
There are jobs, there just aren't jobs that want to pay well..
I don't think it's just pay. There are so many clueless administrators involved no one can actually communicate and collaborate with eachother.
The independent maker thing is probably the solution to this.
The independent maker thing is probably the solution to this.
‘Independent maker’ seems problematic. I assume you mean the collective maker movement?
Independent as opposed to having a corporate or institutional job.
Parents don't usually send kids to those things with some grand career plan for them in mind, but to occupy the offspring with something that isn't cartoons. Finding what they want to do in life via such activities is just a bonus.
Meanwhile the shortage of engineers is actually a shortage of everyone, as demographics shifted towards there being fewer children overall.
Regarding solutions all eyes should now be on Japan, as they're a harbinger state - crises they have tend to repeat elsewhere - and they have had this problem for decades now.
Meanwhile the shortage of engineers is actually a shortage of everyone, as demographics shifted towards there being fewer children overall.
Regarding solutions all eyes should now be on Japan, as they're a harbinger state - crises they have tend to repeat elsewhere - and they have had this problem for decades now.
The maker world I’m familiar with is basically split into two divisions:
There are the people who like building things, and the people who like making content.
Some people check both boxes, but in practice the people who like building things the most aren’t spending time grinding the YouTube game with clickbait thumbnails and constant self promotion.
So like many domains, the part you see on YouTube isn’t representative of the movement as a whole. It captures the people who like entertaining and making videos the most.
There are the people who like building things, and the people who like making content.
Some people check both boxes, but in practice the people who like building things the most aren’t spending time grinding the YouTube game with clickbait thumbnails and constant self promotion.
So like many domains, the part you see on YouTube isn’t representative of the movement as a whole. It captures the people who like entertaining and making videos the most.
That's why I loved just walking around at Open Sauce. I talked to a guy who reverse engineered the Pi Zero 2 PCB and then put its SoC onto a Pico-compatible board. He probably won't have a YouTube channel ever, but this event brings that all together.
Kids don't have to like the things you want them to like. They lead their own lives, so long as it's mostly fulfilling and happy, what's the problem? Don't be the figurative parent who tells their kids what job they should get.
If they really like building stuff like this they can get a career that does it, like Embedded Engineer or Firmware Engineer type roles. And if it's just a hobby that's great too.
I'm not sure about the media part, is it because of Youtubers? If so that sounds like wanting to become the modern version of a movie star. In that situation maybe encourage them to do a multimedia class at school and see if they like it.
I'm not sure about the media part, is it because of Youtubers? If so that sounds like wanting to become the modern version of a movie star. In that situation maybe encourage them to do a multimedia class at school and see if they like it.
I've had a different experience. It probably has to do with my emotional makeup.
I really like engineering; especially the delivery part. That's where I give the results of my work to others, and they use it. It's been that way, since I was a kid.
The delivery part means there's a fairly significant amount of "not fun" stuff, like Quality Assurance, Documentation, and Support.
I don't especially like that part, but the end goal has always made it worth it.
It's been my experience that companies like to pay for the delivery part. For some reason, delivery is important to them.
I'm also "on the spectrum," so process and repetition have always been something I can dig. I find comfort in structure and Discipline, which, in my opinion, are required elements of "engineering," as opposed to "coding."
I really like engineering; especially the delivery part. That's where I give the results of my work to others, and they use it. It's been that way, since I was a kid.
The delivery part means there's a fairly significant amount of "not fun" stuff, like Quality Assurance, Documentation, and Support.
I don't especially like that part, but the end goal has always made it worth it.
It's been my experience that companies like to pay for the delivery part. For some reason, delivery is important to them.
I'm also "on the spectrum," so process and repetition have always been something I can dig. I find comfort in structure and Discipline, which, in my opinion, are required elements of "engineering," as opposed to "coding."
Maybe the kids are just optimizing for the currency that they think matters most: attention.
They might even be right.
They might even be right.
Engineering career is not a goal, but a means. The goal is to build things that people use and you can make a living out of, on scale.
> ... while kids like it a lot ...
How is this a problem?
How is this a problem?
the intertwining of entertainment or fun with learning is a problem because it teaches kids that if something isn't fun it isn't for them, the "infotainment science" genre that's very common these days I suspect is detrimental to people pursuing STEM the moment they encounter what those disciplines are like.
Neil Postman used to make this point about TV politics and children's TV. Because TV as a medium must be show business, people were taught that if it isn't show business it isn't politics. When kids got spelling lessons on Sesame Street they weren't taught to learn languages but learning how to watch TV.
Neil Postman used to make this point about TV politics and children's TV. Because TV as a medium must be show business, people were taught that if it isn't show business it isn't politics. When kids got spelling lessons on Sesame Street they weren't taught to learn languages but learning how to watch TV.
> it doesn't translate to engineering careers
From one teacher to another, I'm sorry what?
If teaching kids how build things doesn't encourage them to become engineers, what does?
If you're taking about attention grabbing Youtuber-engineers, I think that is very different than the makerspace movement that gives people access to CNC machines/3D printers/welders without a person needing to personally own a CNC machine/3D printer/welder.
All of the greatest engineers I know spent their childhood playing with legos, hot glue, solding irons, and hobby rocket kits.
From one teacher to another, I'm sorry what?
If teaching kids how build things doesn't encourage them to become engineers, what does?
If you're taking about attention grabbing Youtuber-engineers, I think that is very different than the makerspace movement that gives people access to CNC machines/3D printers/welders without a person needing to personally own a CNC machine/3D printer/welder.
All of the greatest engineers I know spent their childhood playing with legos, hot glue, solding irons, and hobby rocket kits.
Is there stats to back this up? I imagine not every kid who watches these creators becomes an engineer, but do more become engineers than non watchers? Or less? I’d be willing to bet more do, even if it’s still not a huge majority. I mean anecdotally I know a lot of engineer friends of mine who like these creators too. I’m a professional software engineer now after watching some of these people when I was younger and being involved in my high schools robotics team. I went to open sauce and saw a bunch of local robotics teams there too. Again maybe they won’t all be engineers but I’m sure more will than the average
Or may be education should be more dynamic, engaging, and interactive, instead of having lowest paid teacher jobs, with overcrowded classes, heavenly focused on boring memorization (without clear purpose), and boring tests.
that's not a maker problem, that's a social media modern day problem.
I don't think getting more kids to want an engineering career is going to improve civil engineering. Lots of people joined the software workforce and the result wasn't better software.
I never payed attention to maker youtubers as a young adult.
What changed everything for me was visiting a hackerspace and getting my own hands dirty making things. I got so distracted making things in the 15 years since that I have never have time to make content to share what I learned. Always more things to build or fix.
Totally the opposite problem to what you describe!
Maybe we should focus more on exposing people to making things in workshops, and communities, rather than content.
What changed everything for me was visiting a hackerspace and getting my own hands dirty making things. I got so distracted making things in the 15 years since that I have never have time to make content to share what I learned. Always more things to build or fix.
Totally the opposite problem to what you describe!
Maybe we should focus more on exposing people to making things in workshops, and communities, rather than content.
I would argue that it does turn more people onto engineering paths and will result in more engineers. But it could just be a cool hobby! Does every person who is interested in cooking become a chef? Every person who is into sports become an athlete? Music a musician?
With tech becoming more prevalent, people making more things and people repairing more things, I think it's an overall good thing. Also if they become content creators, then so what?
With tech becoming more prevalent, people making more things and people repairing more things, I think it's an overall good thing. Also if they become content creators, then so what?
Yeah, another side effect is management types are now allergic to things which look like maker projects, even if done with a level of professional engineering seriousness - they are unable to distinguish between the two, so now they dismiss both.
This has been a factor in the slowdown of commercial IoT, as it is often dismissed as science fair stuff.
This has been a factor in the slowdown of commercial IoT, as it is often dismissed as science fair stuff.
> Kids don't want to become engineers as result, they want to become content creators, tinkerers etc. Even rather good students with a lot of potential see all this engineering stuff more as a media career or a fun hobby.
Well, let's see, would you rather make your money slaving away in some corporation for absurdly low pay, or pointing a cellphone camera at yourself and attracting an audience of worshippers that could make you squillions with the right sponsorships?
The problem isn't the maker movement; it's the broader problem that "influencer" is the new "rapper". Everybody thinks they can do it, and the younger generations are so much disproportionately sicker with main-character syndrome that they think they deserve the fame and riches of the best and luckiest, even though the Cool Career Pigeonhole Principle says they probably won't get it.
I mean, ultimately, you gotta love the work itself, otherwise why bother. I love game development, but I know I'm never gonna be John Carmack, or even John Romero. I keep doing it for the satisfaction I get from doing the work. Maybe the maker community needs to emphasize that aspect more to counteract influenceritis. Or maybe we need to instill more of a sense of duty and responsibility in our young people, so that the smarter ones will step up and take on engineering jobs out of a sense of service to our civilization.
With narcissism being the defining characteristic of society in the USA, going into the highest reaches of power here, I don't know that that will be possible for a while yet.
Well, let's see, would you rather make your money slaving away in some corporation for absurdly low pay, or pointing a cellphone camera at yourself and attracting an audience of worshippers that could make you squillions with the right sponsorships?
The problem isn't the maker movement; it's the broader problem that "influencer" is the new "rapper". Everybody thinks they can do it, and the younger generations are so much disproportionately sicker with main-character syndrome that they think they deserve the fame and riches of the best and luckiest, even though the Cool Career Pigeonhole Principle says they probably won't get it.
I mean, ultimately, you gotta love the work itself, otherwise why bother. I love game development, but I know I'm never gonna be John Carmack, or even John Romero. I keep doing it for the satisfaction I get from doing the work. Maybe the maker community needs to emphasize that aspect more to counteract influenceritis. Or maybe we need to instill more of a sense of duty and responsibility in our young people, so that the smarter ones will step up and take on engineering jobs out of a sense of service to our civilization.
With narcissism being the defining characteristic of society in the USA, going into the highest reaches of power here, I don't know that that will be possible for a while yet.
Asinine complaint.
1. Not true in the slightest; you even contradict yourself. Engineering interests absolutely do grow from it like you said, and you will never get someone doing good work in an engineering career without a prior interest.
2. Life is not a career. Even just fostering an interest in something creative is invaluable on its own. Perceiving something as harmful because it isn't corporate enough for your tastes makes me extremely sad for you.
1. Not true in the slightest; you even contradict yourself. Engineering interests absolutely do grow from it like you said, and you will never get someone doing good work in an engineering career without a prior interest.
2. Life is not a career. Even just fostering an interest in something creative is invaluable on its own. Perceiving something as harmful because it isn't corporate enough for your tastes makes me extremely sad for you.
I encourage people to learn to program especially if they aren't pursuing a software engineering career. Someone that knows a specific domain that can see it through the lens of an expert at another will understand their domain in a way many others cannot. They will be able to break down problems into a collection of manageable chunks. They will learn valuable lessons that show up when you begin to intimately think your way through specific problems.
People may start out with the idea that they can be content creators. They'll have to go through several steps from planning, iteration, implementation, analyzing success or failure, etc.
I wanted to make video games as a kid. Then it was being a pro gamer. And then it was physics. And then it was linguistics. And now I'm rounding out the end of a software engineering career. I didn't know how to program, and I wasn't particularly mathematically inclined. This led me down several paths all around the idea of generally being a better user of technology.
One of the most seemingly random and yet greatest contributions to my path in life was playing EvE Online. I learned logistics, collaboration, tactics, strategy, spycraft, improvisation, mental fortitude, and even how to administrate LDAP servers. In no way was this a pursuit toward an engineering career.
I'm also a lifelong musician, but there was a significant pause through my twenties due to lack of means. Now that I'm a programmer, I've been able to intuitively command my knowledge of music theory because it's systematic and documented thoroughly.
Learning to play Counter Strike taught me how technique and approach is just as important as mechanical skill. I can specifically recall a tutorial regarding instantly headshotting someone as you round a corner without the need to flick your mouse. You simply anchor your crosshairs to the corner your pivoting around, place it at head height, and click when you see a head. This is an extremely valuable lesson in abstract.
Learning to play Street Fighter competitively was informed by my experience with learning instruments and specifically key components of Jazz. Improvisation, syncopation, consistency, timing, and training the other person to expect one thing and immediately subvert that expectation all translated well.
I am a champion-ranked Rocket League player. To me, my car is an instrument. I practice it like I practice any mechanical skill that I want to make second nature. Repetition, technique refinement and acquisition, control, and composition of all skills simultaneously are shared between these two things. Because of Street Fighter, I also approach it as a fighting game. Attacking your opponent's mental stack is key to high level success in the same way.
David Sirlin's "Play to Win" taught me the value of removing artificial constraints. I seek to explore the bounds of any problem space to their fullest extent and use that knowledge to exploit opportunities without changing the space I'm in. This is a book about applying Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" to Street Fighter and not directly abstract in the least.
Factorio is a common programmer obsession. Because of this game, I have an intuitive mental model of algorithms and data structures, separation of concerns, fault tolerance, and how different parts of any system interact. It's not abstract math in my head- it's Factorio.
My father started his career as a draftsman for oil companies, and his command over his hands has always inspired me. Reading "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" showed me that I could engage abstract thought at will. This would come up later when I read "Thinking, Fast and Slow" and I was able to draw connections between artistic pseudo science and an intellectual understanding of different modes of thought.
I am a veteran. My job was being a Crypto Linguist. My experience in the military taught me the value of motivation, rigor, and discipline. I failed basic Spanish multiple times in high school and yet could dream in Korean with the right environment supporting me. These skills and lessons are key to becoming an expert at anything.
I dismantle opponents in Rocket League by applying mental stack management from Street Fighter, tactical prowess from EvE, discipline and motivation from the military, acquisition of mechanical skill from learning instruments, and exploitation of existing mechanics from "Play to Win". Nearly everything I've learned has created a rich tapestry of thought that I pull from.
I am now a successful, specialized software engineer with a long career. I stumbled into this, and I've never been able to succeed with formal higher education. I attended several high schools, often switching mid-semester. This destroyed my ability to get the ball rolling in mathematics. I could write a compiler before I truly understood what math was. Everything from my childhood acted as the foundation for where I am today- even if it was "pointlessly" meandering my way through trying to make a video game, a better MySpace page, process diagrams, drawing, setting up Linux, audio engineering, etc.
People don't take a direct path to their dreams. They evolve and their former experiences inform their future goals, choices, and opportunities.
People may start out with the idea that they can be content creators. They'll have to go through several steps from planning, iteration, implementation, analyzing success or failure, etc.
I wanted to make video games as a kid. Then it was being a pro gamer. And then it was physics. And then it was linguistics. And now I'm rounding out the end of a software engineering career. I didn't know how to program, and I wasn't particularly mathematically inclined. This led me down several paths all around the idea of generally being a better user of technology.
One of the most seemingly random and yet greatest contributions to my path in life was playing EvE Online. I learned logistics, collaboration, tactics, strategy, spycraft, improvisation, mental fortitude, and even how to administrate LDAP servers. In no way was this a pursuit toward an engineering career.
I'm also a lifelong musician, but there was a significant pause through my twenties due to lack of means. Now that I'm a programmer, I've been able to intuitively command my knowledge of music theory because it's systematic and documented thoroughly.
Learning to play Counter Strike taught me how technique and approach is just as important as mechanical skill. I can specifically recall a tutorial regarding instantly headshotting someone as you round a corner without the need to flick your mouse. You simply anchor your crosshairs to the corner your pivoting around, place it at head height, and click when you see a head. This is an extremely valuable lesson in abstract.
Learning to play Street Fighter competitively was informed by my experience with learning instruments and specifically key components of Jazz. Improvisation, syncopation, consistency, timing, and training the other person to expect one thing and immediately subvert that expectation all translated well.
I am a champion-ranked Rocket League player. To me, my car is an instrument. I practice it like I practice any mechanical skill that I want to make second nature. Repetition, technique refinement and acquisition, control, and composition of all skills simultaneously are shared between these two things. Because of Street Fighter, I also approach it as a fighting game. Attacking your opponent's mental stack is key to high level success in the same way.
David Sirlin's "Play to Win" taught me the value of removing artificial constraints. I seek to explore the bounds of any problem space to their fullest extent and use that knowledge to exploit opportunities without changing the space I'm in. This is a book about applying Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" to Street Fighter and not directly abstract in the least.
Factorio is a common programmer obsession. Because of this game, I have an intuitive mental model of algorithms and data structures, separation of concerns, fault tolerance, and how different parts of any system interact. It's not abstract math in my head- it's Factorio.
My father started his career as a draftsman for oil companies, and his command over his hands has always inspired me. Reading "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" showed me that I could engage abstract thought at will. This would come up later when I read "Thinking, Fast and Slow" and I was able to draw connections between artistic pseudo science and an intellectual understanding of different modes of thought.
I am a veteran. My job was being a Crypto Linguist. My experience in the military taught me the value of motivation, rigor, and discipline. I failed basic Spanish multiple times in high school and yet could dream in Korean with the right environment supporting me. These skills and lessons are key to becoming an expert at anything.
I dismantle opponents in Rocket League by applying mental stack management from Street Fighter, tactical prowess from EvE, discipline and motivation from the military, acquisition of mechanical skill from learning instruments, and exploitation of existing mechanics from "Play to Win". Nearly everything I've learned has created a rich tapestry of thought that I pull from.
I am now a successful, specialized software engineer with a long career. I stumbled into this, and I've never been able to succeed with formal higher education. I attended several high schools, often switching mid-semester. This destroyed my ability to get the ball rolling in mathematics. I could write a compiler before I truly understood what math was. Everything from my childhood acted as the foundation for where I am today- even if it was "pointlessly" meandering my way through trying to make a video game, a better MySpace page, process diagrams, drawing, setting up Linux, audio engineering, etc.
People don't take a direct path to their dreams. They evolve and their former experiences inform their future goals, choices, and opportunities.
This is a great post and you made a compelling argument. But I think it's important to remember that for every case like yours, there's another person who became a directionless failure who spends his days lazing about and mooching off those around him. I think that parents are reasonable for being afraid that their kids will go down the failure path rather than your success path, because there's no way to know up front which branch they will take.
I went to this and really enjoyed myself. Do you like enthusiastically interrogating teenagers about robots they've made? You should, it's really fun!
I also got to play a 3D printed violin, and meet a lady who had built a terrifying battlebot that was too vicious to be allowed in the arena at the event as it would have broken straight though the safety plexiglass.
I also got to play a 3D printed violin, and meet a lady who had built a terrifying battlebot that was too vicious to be allowed in the arena at the event as it would have broken straight though the safety plexiglass.
meet a lady who had built a terrifying battlebot that was too vicious to be allowed in the arena at the event as it would have broken straight though the safety plexiglass.
I think we all deserve to see a video of this battlebot. It's been a tough week.
I think we all deserve to see a video of this battlebot. It's been a tough week.
Sadly I forget to take photos of that one! I got some pictures of the 3D printed violins though: https://gist.github.com/simonw/e5be5cbe96073c09a468307e4cb61...
Those are by https://www.neoluthy.com/
Those are by https://www.neoluthy.com/
Very cool. Thanks for sharing!
I have now made it my life's mission to compete in these events with my newest creation, suicidebomberbot.
> Do you like enthusiastically interrogating teenagers about robots they've made?
Definitely one of the joys of being a FIRST robot league parent/volunteer.
Definitely one of the joys of being a FIRST robot league parent/volunteer.
I was there too and was looking for you! My friends all used your OpenSauce tool
Tool in question: https://tools.simonwillison.net/open-sauce-2025
There was also some map someone mentioned at one point, that was much better than the official map on https://app.opensauce.com (at least on mobile).
There was also some map someone mentioned at one point, that was much better than the official map on https://app.opensauce.com (at least on mobile).
I was also there and especially enjoyed seeing the number of parents with kids. The badge making area is always full of kids, and adult parents or staff/volunteers guiding them in completing the Open Sauce badge.
Getting to see and hold a 3D printed regenerative cooled liquid rocket engine was my personal highlight.
BPS.space (Joe Barnard) released a nice YouTube Short that also highlighted some favorites.
Getting to see and hold a 3D printed regenerative cooled liquid rocket engine was my personal highlight.
BPS.space (Joe Barnard) released a nice YouTube Short that also highlighted some favorites.
Jeff Geerling is one of my favorite public figures (I’m not sure how far or if I’m stretching the definition of public). I keep meaning to subscribe to his patreon, I mean that’s the least I could do - I think he’s the only creator I consume the content of on 4+ platforms. And occasionally he shows up here too. I just love the sheer “making things” energy, and all the open work he does.
If there was, say, a Patreon equivalent that was just a static site that displayed an address to send weird or excess hardware, cash, etc to, that would be so ideal!
If there was, say, a Patreon equivalent that was just a static site that displayed an address to send weird or excess hardware, cash, etc to, that would be so ideal!
Same, I read everything he writes. I remember reading a bunch of his stuff when I was getting into ansible, and then all his Pi stuff especially when CM4 came out. It's a strange sort of parasocial relationship but for nerds!
Strongly agree for the same reasons. I don’t subscribe to his stuff for any particular niche, I just enjoy the “this is a thing I am going to learn lots about and make a video”.
> NASA features many of Matthew's photos, but he told me he's also pushing for more sharing of the RAW image files
These two shots of the moon and earth are so cool. This is such an interesting view of something that we are all familiar with, but will likely never see from this vantage point. I would love to be able to play with the RAW files, as some kind of deeper experience with the images.
https://www.nasa.gov/image-detail/amf-iss071e609065/
https://www.nasa.gov/image-detail/gvynuzswiaatoq/
These two shots of the moon and earth are so cool. This is such an interesting view of something that we are all familiar with, but will likely never see from this vantage point. I would love to be able to play with the RAW files, as some kind of deeper experience with the images.
https://www.nasa.gov/image-detail/amf-iss071e609065/
https://www.nasa.gov/image-detail/gvynuzswiaatoq/
i was there. it’s an awesome event. it’s like maker faire but if it were run by feral youtubers. like half of the exhibits are some sort of cursed side quest. i got to drive the crazy oshcut simulator. i love it.
Yeah, I was wondering to the degree it was different than the Maker Faire. (Took the daughters there for years until it shut down. Covid? I think it's back on bur I'm no longer in the Bay Area.)
Maker Faire got crowded and a bit repetitious from year to year.
Maybe you can characterize — is Open Sauce has slightly less art, slightly more tech? That's my impression watching a few videos now.
Maker Faire got crowded and a bit repetitious from year to year.
Maybe you can characterize — is Open Sauce has slightly less art, slightly more tech? That's my impression watching a few videos now.
I’ve exhibited at Maker Faire a couple of times and visited many times, and exhibited at Open Sauce twice.
Early Maker Faire (in the Bay Area) was a mix of art booths/vehicles coming out of Burning Man storage and independent makers showing their projects and inventions. Then it rapidly commercialized with company booths taking most of the show space, and then it finally imploded financially. The recent resurrected version is less commercial, much smaller, and aimed more at younger children and their parents, but is overall not that far off from the Make origins.
Open Sauce is very much Creators (content and otherwise) and independent makers, growing in scale every year. It works well, in part because the company/sponsor booths are no larger or flashier than the hacker/maker booths.
Early Maker Faire (in the Bay Area) was a mix of art booths/vehicles coming out of Burning Man storage and independent makers showing their projects and inventions. Then it rapidly commercialized with company booths taking most of the show space, and then it finally imploded financially. The recent resurrected version is less commercial, much smaller, and aimed more at younger children and their parents, but is overall not that far off from the Make origins.
Open Sauce is very much Creators (content and otherwise) and independent makers, growing in scale every year. It works well, in part because the company/sponsor booths are no larger or flashier than the hacker/maker booths.
I've spoken with a few conference organizers about this—how do you please sponsors enough to make them want to come back the next year, but also make it so their booths / areas on the floor don't turn into boring "whatever-conference" spaces.
It's a balance and so far Open Sauce seems to have done okay there; but a couple sponsored booths felt a bit more corporate/salesy and out of place this year.
You could tell people would kind of give them a wide berth compared to walking around other areas, where people were more densely packed around all the booths.
It's a balance and so far Open Sauce seems to have done okay there; but a couple sponsored booths felt a bit more corporate/salesy and out of place this year.
You could tell people would kind of give them a wide berth compared to walking around other areas, where people were more densely packed around all the booths.
The balance during the first two years felt amazing. I was so energized by the first days that I spent the second days revisiting to a ton of makers I’d met the first day to talk more. And I still didn’t see everything.
This year my friends and I felt it swayed a bit far to sponsored booths. There were fewer cool experiences (like the mini-golf) and I’d seen everything in one day. We wondered if the cool booths got denied in favor of ones that could pay more.
We still had great conversations and met incredible people, but felt we had to work harder to find it.
That said.. I think William’s team has been in a deficit each year and he said in his OpenSauce+ video how he is trying to be more sustainable.. I still remember buying the $69.69 early early bird ticket on the way out of 2023 for 2024 just to help them cover existing costs.
I really hope they figure it out. It’s such a great environment and has a great team behind it
This year my friends and I felt it swayed a bit far to sponsored booths. There were fewer cool experiences (like the mini-golf) and I’d seen everything in one day. We wondered if the cool booths got denied in favor of ones that could pay more.
We still had great conversations and met incredible people, but felt we had to work harder to find it.
That said.. I think William’s team has been in a deficit each year and he said in his OpenSauce+ video how he is trying to be more sustainable.. I still remember buying the $69.69 early early bird ticket on the way out of 2023 for 2024 just to help them cover existing costs.
I really hope they figure it out. It’s such a great environment and has a great team behind it
Back in the day I use to like watching people creating things in YouTube. After a while I notice a trend of people building stuff just for the views. I think that's one of the reasons Ben left Element 14, they did not care about inventions, they just wanted content.
I feel like open sauce, as mentioned by others here, is just a place for YouTubers to gather an audience. With some exceptions, of course (I'm looking at you technology connections).
I feel like open sauce, as mentioned by others here, is just a place for YouTubers to gather an audience. With some exceptions, of course (I'm looking at you technology connections).
For anyone interested in a little context behind the organisational effort that goes into this event, William Osman (the genius brain behind Open Sauce) has put up 12 short videos documenting his attempts to promote the event in the week leading up to it. This is the first of those videos: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9qbjES787ZI
Sending out a simple reminder email would have made more impact. I did not realize the event was happening until I looked at my personal calendar.
Yeah something tells me scheduling coordination and planning aren't William Osman's strongest skills.
The group really needs to hire a long term secretary that understands engineers and content creation.
The group really needs to hire a long term secretary that understands engineers and content creation.
I feel like everything about this event is about quality over quantity which is incredibly rare these days & likely what most participants & attendees value about the event. Adding a lot of professionalism to it is going to dilute that aspect.
(& no quality!=production value)
(& no quality!=production value)
The target audience is people who watch a lot of YouTube maker content.
He’s been advertising the conference constantly for months, not just a couple days before.
He’s been advertising the conference constantly for months, not just a couple days before.
Open Sauce sounds like such a cool event, I would totally go next year if it wasn't 12,000km away...
Kudos(3)
I attended for the first time this year after wanting to go since the first year. As someone who watches science techy engineering YouTubers, but hardly does anything with hardware, I had a great time. Even though I'm a fan of some of William Osman's work, I didn't really enjoy the panels. Relative to effort of attendance, they were kind of boring, something you could probably just watch as a YouTube recording.
What I did enjoy alot were the exhibits. There's the spectacle of seeing all kinds of weird and interesting builds in person. But what's really, really enjoyable is that because the exhibits are done by average people who generally don't have a big public following; you can just ask them endless questions and they're more than happy to answer and give such a great insight into the build process, the work that is involved, the inspiration and the little details of all the things that they made. Granted, I will agree, many of the exhibitors are not socially dexterous, but because they're there, they're very willing to talk and explain things. Definitely worthwhile. I even got to use a soldering iron for the first time in a decade years.
What I did enjoy alot were the exhibits. There's the spectacle of seeing all kinds of weird and interesting builds in person. But what's really, really enjoyable is that because the exhibits are done by average people who generally don't have a big public following; you can just ask them endless questions and they're more than happy to answer and give such a great insight into the build process, the work that is involved, the inspiration and the little details of all the things that they made. Granted, I will agree, many of the exhibitors are not socially dexterous, but because they're there, they're very willing to talk and explain things. Definitely worthwhile. I even got to use a soldering iron for the first time in a decade years.
Despite having been organized on the former grounds of Maker Faire, the whole thing felt smaller. Exhibit halls were very poorly ventilated, and doors left open didn't help. Only the main conference hall was breezy enough. Panels were hard to follow due to bad acoustics of smaller halls.
Retro related halls were mostly about NES/console Retro, not 8-bit in general.
People were fantastic though. I liked seeing many different robots and cosplayers. I got to play many great games, looking forward to their release. Not many mindblowing stuff but, were I a kid, I would be blown away for sure. Robot fights were also exciting (maybe outdoors would be better for it though).
I saw Ken Shirriff, and thought to myself "oh he must have left his assistant in his place". I'd never guess he'd be that young which impressed me even more given his phenomenal work. So, I missed my chance to thank him in person. Next time!
Had good time in general. I hope to see it get better in upcoming years.
Retro related halls were mostly about NES/console Retro, not 8-bit in general.
People were fantastic though. I liked seeing many different robots and cosplayers. I got to play many great games, looking forward to their release. Not many mindblowing stuff but, were I a kid, I would be blown away for sure. Robot fights were also exciting (maybe outdoors would be better for it though).
I saw Ken Shirriff, and thought to myself "oh he must have left his assistant in his place". I'd never guess he'd be that young which impressed me even more given his phenomenal work. So, I missed my chance to thank him in person. Next time!
Had good time in general. I hope to see it get better in upcoming years.
> I saw Ken Shirriff... I'd never guess he'd be that young
Thanks! But are you sure that was me? I haven't been young for a long while now :-) If the person you saw wasn't wearing a lab coat, then it was probably Mike Stewart or TubeTimeUS.
Thanks! But are you sure that was me? I haven't been young for a long while now :-) If the person you saw wasn't wearing a lab coat, then it was probably Mike Stewart or TubeTimeUS.
It was you if your profile pic on Bluesky is current. I just hadn't zoomed to it before :)
I exhibited there, and I had a lot of fun. My friends co-hosting the noisebridge booth got a lot of folks to find a makerspace near them. Several general attendees told us that the very first time they had soldered was at Open Sauce, when putting together their badges. The event has positive impact, and I'm hoping it sticks around.
I would like to exhibit some of my nerd stuff, but the rules say that your booth most always be manned by someone. How then would I be able to visit other booths?
Find one or two people to exhibit your stuff alongside you. The event is more fun in a group.
Meta: typo, it's Ken Shirriff not Sheriff. Although in my mind Ken is certainly the sheriff of IC exploration. :)
Just for balance, I went there, and it was pretty disappointing. I do love math and engineering, but it was very gimmicky, especially the panels. I tried striking up a few conversations, but people were really awkward and ran away. Also, generally as an event it was frustrating in many ways (for example, mobile internet is mostly down, and the agenda is not printed anywhere). But who wants to hear me complain.
The panels were IMO the least interesting part (unless you really like one of the people on a particular panel I guess). I spent almost the entire time walking around to booths asking the people who made things about their creations. That was gold.
I really wish Open Sauce made more effort to showcase Open Source solutions as the name clearly implies. So many things presented are proprietary, which makes them useless for significant community improvement and collaboration.
Those pushing corpotech in an event meant to have a community vibe feels gross.
Granted MakerFaire is the same these days.
Are there any actual events showcasing exclusively open tech in the US?
Those pushing corpotech in an event meant to have a community vibe feels gross.
Granted MakerFaire is the same these days.
Are there any actual events showcasing exclusively open tech in the US?
I went and enjoyed it a lot. The variety of the exhibitions was great (personally I loved the watercolor pen plotter) and the age of the exhibitors - both very young and old, was delightful.
William and a few other youtubers are behind open sauce https://youtube.com/@williamosman2
Seems like the main channel is https://www.youtube.com/@williamosman
The real main channel is http://sauceplus.com/
He mostly posts on the second channel these days
Huge thank you for making this post, I watched a few of your videos of the event and super super interesting. Great post :)
Looks like the OG Maker Faire from 15-20 years ago.
Seems cool but disappointingly has nothing to do with sauce, hot or otherwise.
is this makers faire 2.0? I didn't know about this, sad to have missed it.
But how will they avoid the unfortunate end that Maker Faires faced last time around?
They're working on it - you can get some backstory by watching William Osman 2 channel. They published a show this year https://www.sauceplus.com/channel/ScareTheCoyote/home then funded the rest mostly with tickets. I'm sure there will be a few side-projects helping here.
What was it?
Maker Faire went bankrupt in 2019: https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/10/maker-faire-now-make-commu...
More on Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maker_Faire
They're actually back now, but in a less expensive venue in Vallejo: https://bayarea.makerfaire.com/
Next Vallejo event is 26-28 September 2025.
More on Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maker_Faire
They're actually back now, but in a less expensive venue in Vallejo: https://bayarea.makerfaire.com/
Next Vallejo event is 26-28 September 2025.
TBH William Osman's been pretty open about this event not being profitable yet, though having the support on the YouTube/Sauceplus side, he hopes that will fill in the funding gap.
Trade shows/conferences without a massive corporate sponsorship backing (e.g. like many trade shows today) are definitely risky, financially.
Trade shows/conferences without a massive corporate sponsorship backing (e.g. like many trade shows today) are definitely risky, financially.
Ah, that's too bad. Thanks, I hadn't heard.
granra(6)
Isn't maker movement secretely funded by Private equity?
I’m guessing this is in reference to a recent YT video about private equity buying up YouTube channels in recent years, mostly in the science and engineering spaces.
Channels publicly acquired by PE:
Task & Purpose, Donut Media, Veritasium, Simple History, Fern, Fireship, Economics Explained, Futurism, Astrum
“Your favorite YouTube channel is (probably) owned by private equity.”
https://youtu.be/hJ-rRXWhElI?si=8h4h6lnbUpBDLiQp
Channels publicly acquired by PE:
Task & Purpose, Donut Media, Veritasium, Simple History, Fern, Fireship, Economics Explained, Futurism, Astrum
“Your favorite YouTube channel is (probably) owned by private equity.”
https://youtu.be/hJ-rRXWhElI?si=8h4h6lnbUpBDLiQp
I'm bored, so I'll bite, why would it be? Can you share anything supporting this?
A recent YT video talking about it.
https://youtu.be/hJ-rRXWhElI?si=8h4h6lnbUpBDLiQp
https://youtu.be/hJ-rRXWhElI?si=8h4h6lnbUpBDLiQp
Well, at least open sauce isn't
Technically everything that isn't a public company (ie tradable on the stock market) is private equity although I think you're complaint is about private equity rollups.
Only in the sense that a lot of YouTube channels are taking sponsorship from PE funded startups, and to be honest I just see that a slightly odd form of wealth redistribution.
Someone tell me where to sign up because I'd love to get some funding for a new 3D printer.
[deleted]
Aren’t all birds actually government surveillance drones?
Using the new U.S.-located 14A fabs coming online soon, all bumblebees will soon be government surveillance drones.
The panels I did see, the moderator (William Osman) didn't do a very good job moving through questions, so very few people got to actually ask anything.
I also felt very strange that the only place I saw kids was lining up to ask YouTubers questions during the panels. I couldn't help but think about how many kids want to be YouTubers when they grow up - it seems like YouTuber idolism was the main event and not any of the awesome booths by non-famous people.