Unpopular opinion: Weekdays/weekend split isn't for everyone(twitter.com)
twitter.com
Unpopular opinion: Weekdays/weekend split isn't for everyone
https://twitter.com/meseali/status/1322860064974274560
77 comments
Of course people want flexibility, but there are cons-
>Much more difficult for collaboration especially for small questions
>Bad workers exploring nice policies
Pros-
>I can sleep/think about code without being paid. Making my solutions lower cost and higher quality
>Happier employees
>Potentially less micro management needed
>Much more difficult for collaboration especially for small questions
>Bad workers exploring nice policies
Pros-
>I can sleep/think about code without being paid. Making my solutions lower cost and higher quality
>Happier employees
>Potentially less micro management needed
You can make 1pm to 5pm as mandatory, so both the 9-5 folks and 1pm to 9pm folks have some overlap for synchronization, meetings and such.
As for people exploiting it, you should measure relative performance and not but time
One of my first startups I worked had a noon-4pm core hours. You had to be in by noon, and should stay until 4pm, the rest was flexible. I thought it worked really well for both early risers and late owls.
As for people exploiting it, you should measure relative performance and not but time
One of my first startups I worked had a noon-4pm core hours. You had to be in by noon, and should stay until 4pm, the rest was flexible. I thought it worked really well for both early risers and late owls.
> you should measure relative performance
This is also easier said than done. How do you measure programmer performance? LOC is obviously not a reasonable metric. Closed tickets isn't either. It takes an experienced manager who understands code to understand what work is actually being done, and managers like that are rare and valuable.
This is also easier said than done. How do you measure programmer performance? LOC is obviously not a reasonable metric. Closed tickets isn't either. It takes an experienced manager who understands code to understand what work is actually being done, and managers like that are rare and valuable.
The thing is managers already do this either consciously or subconsciously. So we’re just changing how they apply it.
12-3 is what I prefer for mandatory hours. I'm still going to see you if you are a 6am early bird.
More cons:
- the company restaurant closes at the normal time (or all good stuff is taken)
- you still get that condescending look from early-birds
- the company restaurant closes at the normal time (or all good stuff is taken)
- you still get that condescending look from early-birds
In tech, it is people who work late who act superior. Early birds have it rather harder as they are seen as leaving early even if they objectively done more work.
I am an early bird and there's definitely a weird expectation to stay later than 8 hrs plus lunch.
I definitely never got any bonus points for being at work before my boss.
I definitely never got any bonus points for being at work before my boss.
So another way to filter out or alienate older employees or those with families.
I wish people stood up for night owls when I had to suffer the sleep schedules of the elderly or 9-5 schedule in public school.
When I was VP of Engineering org for a startup, it was a group of about 30 Engineers at all stages of life. Some were young w/no obligations, some had families, a couple were single parents, and there were even a couple folks in the starting to have grandkids phase. I didn't particularly care what schedules people kept as long as work got done and they could be predictably reached.
As a result, there were people that worked 6am to 3pm(ish), 10-3, followed by 7-10 in the evening, 11-8, etc. I had a young child and handled school dropoff, so my hours were roughly 9am - 6pm. My boss, the CEO, was a workaholic who arrived around 10am and worked to whenever. I spent an amazing amount of time dealing with "where is everyone?" sorts of questions, despite the team running fairly efficiently and still completing work on aggressive schedules.
As a result, there were people that worked 6am to 3pm(ish), 10-3, followed by 7-10 in the evening, 11-8, etc. I had a young child and handled school dropoff, so my hours were roughly 9am - 6pm. My boss, the CEO, was a workaholic who arrived around 10am and worked to whenever. I spent an amazing amount of time dealing with "where is everyone?" sorts of questions, despite the team running fairly efficiently and still completing work on aggressive schedules.
And what about us who are night owls and are non-functional until about 12 / 1-2PM, the current system filters out all of us.
The solution was literally “come in any time you want as long as your projects get done” - what’s your objection? That everybody who wants to come in at lunchtime, and work until the small hours force themselves around your schedule because you have a family?
The solution was literally “come in any time you want as long as your projects get done” - what’s your objection? That everybody who wants to come in at lunchtime, and work until the small hours force themselves around your schedule because you have a family?
The issue is that there are very few jobs where you can basically ignore the rest of the world (or even the rest of the world in nearby timezones). If you're a solo writer or programmer sure. But if you work with other people, not wanting to have meetings before 2pm is often a problem. (As would someone who wanted to work midnight to 8am.)
Even jobs that are quite flexible are going to want some overlap time and, even if an atypical schedule allows for a few hours of overlap, the reality is that people will get tired of always having to schedule around your preferences.
Even jobs that are quite flexible are going to want some overlap time and, even if an atypical schedule allows for a few hours of overlap, the reality is that people will get tired of always having to schedule around your preferences.
You're absolutely right, I'm always tired when I have to schedule around other people's preference of working 9-5. It's not like schools should be scheduling for 9AM or earlier starts either, it's bad for the kids, particularly teenagers.
Huge disservice for kids. Ton of studies show a bunch of negative consequences for kids who don’t sleep enough, which is pretty much all kids who wake up to school early.
It's pretty edgy to cast 'isn't for everyone' as an unpopular opinion.
Only a very small group of people are going to have a strong opinion about how other people should organize their work life. They mostly won't care. I suppose lots of managers will be in that group, but work is organized around weekends for lots of non-arbitrary reasons.
Only a very small group of people are going to have a strong opinion about how other people should organize their work life. They mostly won't care. I suppose lots of managers will be in that group, but work is organized around weekends for lots of non-arbitrary reasons.
I worked for a startup that had an internal "story point meter" that would go up as you closed your tickets. The goal was to pressure employees into completing a certain number of story points per week the CEO considered a good number for a productive employee.
Needless to say, this didn't work as intended, and the workforce was split between those who didn't care about it (higher ups) and those who maxed up their meter by overestimating their tasks' story points.
Needless to say, this didn't work as intended, and the workforce was split between those who didn't care about it (higher ups) and those who maxed up their meter by overestimating their tasks' story points.
As a software engineering manager, I put a story-point-based method of task size estimation and team velocity measurement in place about two years ago. A stipulation of this was that at no time would any one developer have their story point velocity assessed.
The purpose of this system is to provide the team with a powerful tool that it needs in order to set a realistic timeline on team deliverables, such as a launch milestone or a new feature. The ability of the story point methodology to have predictive power is destroyed when people are incentivized to gamify it.
The purpose of this system is to provide the team with a powerful tool that it needs in order to set a realistic timeline on team deliverables, such as a launch milestone or a new feature. The ability of the story point methodology to have predictive power is destroyed when people are incentivized to gamify it.
I’d argue the predictive power of story point methodology has not been established. There are simply too many variables to make estimates more accurate than “best guess”:
1/ the team’s composition at a point in time (and all the variability that comes with this)
2/ the team’s dependencies (a kind of exponential effect is at work here: the team’s dependencies also have all these issues in variability and so do their dependencies)
3/ the type of work being estimated in the context of the product (even “basic” things like “CRUD” can be quite intricate in some cases)
Basically unless the estimation is literally for a known change (e.g. modify source code files X, Y and Z with code changes A, B, and C) its predictive power diminishes substantially.
It’s not a powerful tool, it’s a micromanagement technique disguised as a tool to empower ICs.
1/ the team’s composition at a point in time (and all the variability that comes with this)
2/ the team’s dependencies (a kind of exponential effect is at work here: the team’s dependencies also have all these issues in variability and so do their dependencies)
3/ the type of work being estimated in the context of the product (even “basic” things like “CRUD” can be quite intricate in some cases)
Basically unless the estimation is literally for a known change (e.g. modify source code files X, Y and Z with code changes A, B, and C) its predictive power diminishes substantially.
It’s not a powerful tool, it’s a micromanagement technique disguised as a tool to empower ICs.
I completely agree with the impact of the variables you listed. However it's often the case that you need a starting point to estimate timelines. It's never acceptable to tell the decision makers, "We really have no idea how long this will take." Nor is it acceptable to say, "Sure, we'll have it ready in <licked finger in the wind> 8 weeks! Everyone get to work and make that happen (or else)!"
Having a concrete plan ("micromanagement?") for getting to the finish line is important, and the story point methodology is an intuitive tool for figuring out what lengths the tasks need to start out with on the timeline.
Having a concrete plan ("micromanagement?") for getting to the finish line is important, and the story point methodology is an intuitive tool for figuring out what lengths the tasks need to start out with on the timeline.
Having a concrete plan with estimates is important. Assigning some "point value" to them, which variously means "complexity", "man-day-equivalent", "man-sprint-equivalent", and possibly others depending on (arbitrarily applied) context and individuals involved, is the gateway to micromanagement.
It's entirely possible to provide meaningful estimates of both complexity and time-to-implement without resorting to story point formulations or any particular PM framework. "This will take about 6 weeks and has a few dependencies and unknowns that make it moderately risky to take longer." Rephrasing that as "This will take 3 sprints and has a story point value of 8 points per print" doesn't add any value, except from management's perspective as a way to put some "objective" quantification to the problem of estimates and deliverables.
It's entirely possible to provide meaningful estimates of both complexity and time-to-implement without resorting to story point formulations or any particular PM framework. "This will take about 6 weeks and has a few dependencies and unknowns that make it moderately risky to take longer." Rephrasing that as "This will take 3 sprints and has a story point value of 8 points per print" doesn't add any value, except from management's perspective as a way to put some "objective" quantification to the problem of estimates and deliverables.
What about replacing story points with time ranges?
That gives you both time (min, max, which is the information you need) as well as the risk (distance between min and max).
Then countermeasures could be taken to reduce the risk, until min and max are reasonably close.
Sometimes max is +infinity when there is 0 knowledge, but even that information is useful: missing a role or need research.
That gives you both time (min, max, which is the information you need) as well as the risk (distance between min and max).
Then countermeasures could be taken to reduce the risk, until min and max are reasonably close.
Sometimes max is +infinity when there is 0 knowledge, but even that information is useful: missing a role or need research.
My team uses story points as an input into a time range function.
How does it split the time from the risk?
My main problem with points is the impossibility to represent: - A long task of 5 days that's very well known, it's 5 days of work - A short task that's very uncertain. It could be a one line change or many days of work
With time range, you can represent that and it's very visible. With points, you can represent that as the same points, but that does not reflect reality, one of the two estimates is potentially wrong. This also helps providing input on what research tasks should be performed and what's their value.
My main problem with points is the impossibility to represent: - A long task of 5 days that's very well known, it's 5 days of work - A short task that's very uncertain. It could be a one line change or many days of work
With time range, you can represent that and it's very visible. With points, you can represent that as the same points, but that does not reflect reality, one of the two estimates is potentially wrong. This also helps providing input on what research tasks should be performed and what's their value.
My team uses story points to estimate large projects over long periods of time. Sometimes things are overestimated, and other times things are underestimated. However, when you sum them all together, the errors tend to cancel each other out.
I've found that upper management doesn't care whether any given task actually takes 3 days when we estimate it at 3 days. They just want to see a schedule where each task is estimated to take X days. It communicates that you've really thought through the plan. Then, in terms of results, what they really care about is that we track to the date we committed to for the overall effort.
If a senior director is drilling down into a schedule and asking, "Why is this 5-day task taking Bob 7 days to finish?" that's a strong signal that it's time to change your management.
I've found that upper management doesn't care whether any given task actually takes 3 days when we estimate it at 3 days. They just want to see a schedule where each task is estimated to take X days. It communicates that you've really thought through the plan. Then, in terms of results, what they really care about is that we track to the date we committed to for the overall effort.
If a senior director is drilling down into a schedule and asking, "Why is this 5-day task taking Bob 7 days to finish?" that's a strong signal that it's time to change your management.
I didn't say anything about drilling, just that you can have a minimum and maximum range.
This can also give you a minimum and a maximum for when the project is done. This is actually very useful in large projects, because it lets you identify upfront what are the greatest factor of risks of a project.
It didn't want to be a discussion of how management is done, just to highlight that having a time range seems to provide more information to management, which is usually what's desired.
This can also give you a minimum and a maximum for when the project is done. This is actually very useful in large projects, because it lets you identify upfront what are the greatest factor of risks of a project.
It didn't want to be a discussion of how management is done, just to highlight that having a time range seems to provide more information to management, which is usually what's desired.
Have story points been useful to you, even when incentives are aligned? I find that they're often orders of magnitude off, in either direction.
My team has been tracking its story-point-based velocity for about 20 months. The team's composition, product, and structure has been largely unchanged. We started tracking when we were newly formed, and we continued to use the same methodology until we shipped GA.
When not focused on just one objective and not under deadline pressure, the team's average story point velocity per week was 30. This was when we tracked anything and everything we did. When we've track against a launch, where we only focused on the minimum set of tasks we needed to meet a clearly-defined objective with inter-team dependencies and a deadline, the team's average velocity has been 12.
We don't use story points alone in forecasting timelines. What we do is presume a per-dev weekly velocity of (12 / team size). With all of the tasks on a chart, we work with the team to assign tasks to individuals, and we create a strawman schedule for how all the work gets done to meet the timeline. The "length" of each bug is a function of (12 / time size). We track and reassess how all the tasks are coming along on a weekly basis, with the understanding that the "strawman" schedule will end up looking different than we initially project.
For example, take a team size of 6. Then the story points per week per dev is (12 / 6 = 2). Story points per weekday is (2 / 5). So for a task of size 3, we expect one dev to take ((5 / 2) * 3 = 7.5) days to complete, and so the length of the task on the timeline is (rounded up) 8 days.
Then we bring the "fudge factors" into play. For the devs who are more productive we tend to schedule them back-to-back with the tasks that are more urgent and/or are blockers. For the devs that tend to need more time, we keep a lot of whitespace between the end of their assigned tasks and the deadline.
The only time this methodology has gotten us into trouble is when we've caved to pressure by upper management to say we can actually do 15 story points per week or whatever. The most important thing is to measure actual velocity under as similar conditions as you can, and then refuse to accept any projection with a velocity other than you've actually observed. Story points are opaque outside of your team, and upper management is usually satisfied when you translate the story points into the schedule using the method I described.
When not focused on just one objective and not under deadline pressure, the team's average story point velocity per week was 30. This was when we tracked anything and everything we did. When we've track against a launch, where we only focused on the minimum set of tasks we needed to meet a clearly-defined objective with inter-team dependencies and a deadline, the team's average velocity has been 12.
We don't use story points alone in forecasting timelines. What we do is presume a per-dev weekly velocity of (12 / team size). With all of the tasks on a chart, we work with the team to assign tasks to individuals, and we create a strawman schedule for how all the work gets done to meet the timeline. The "length" of each bug is a function of (12 / time size). We track and reassess how all the tasks are coming along on a weekly basis, with the understanding that the "strawman" schedule will end up looking different than we initially project.
For example, take a team size of 6. Then the story points per week per dev is (12 / 6 = 2). Story points per weekday is (2 / 5). So for a task of size 3, we expect one dev to take ((5 / 2) * 3 = 7.5) days to complete, and so the length of the task on the timeline is (rounded up) 8 days.
Then we bring the "fudge factors" into play. For the devs who are more productive we tend to schedule them back-to-back with the tasks that are more urgent and/or are blockers. For the devs that tend to need more time, we keep a lot of whitespace between the end of their assigned tasks and the deadline.
The only time this methodology has gotten us into trouble is when we've caved to pressure by upper management to say we can actually do 15 story points per week or whatever. The most important thing is to measure actual velocity under as similar conditions as you can, and then refuse to accept any projection with a velocity other than you've actually observed. Story points are opaque outside of your team, and upper management is usually satisfied when you translate the story points into the schedule using the method I described.
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That is an unpopular opinion in the same way that saying "The 40 hour work week isn't for everyone" is an unpopular opinion.
Especially since it's observably true that for knowledge workers, almost nobody actually spends even close to a full percentage of their work hours doing the work in their job description. The productivity loss from requiring say 30 hours a week a week instead of 40 would be significantly less than a 25% decrease. In fact I wouldn't bet against a gain in total productivity.
I wouldn't be surprised if % of effective hours remained the same, regardless if you are working 40 or 30 hours a week. I especially doubt it would increase total productivity, I could accept that it would improve efficiency.
Any short term study will observe effects of people wanting to "reward" shorter working week and aren't really representative. This type of change needs a long "stealth" study period.
Any short term study will observe effects of people wanting to "reward" shorter working week and aren't really representative. This type of change needs a long "stealth" study period.
I've been furloughed down to 32 hours a week for 5 months (mostly taking 3 day weekends). It has had a noticeable (downward) impact on tempo, but we aren't necessary looking for ways to make it the permanent way to organize the week either.
It would be hard to sell me on taking Wednesday off, but I can see where people with more obligations would get a lot out of an arrangement like that.
It would be hard to sell me on taking Wednesday off, but I can see where people with more obligations would get a lot out of an arrangement like that.
I think you get more gain if you lower amount of hours per day rather then skip a day. Skipping a day is more comfortable for people who want free day.
I suspect that if I technically worked 6 hours a day it wouldn't make much difference. I already have a pretty flexible schedule and, like most people, it's not like I'm heads-down 8 hours a day. On the other hand, lop a full day off a week and, while I'd shift some work as I do when I'm traveling, I'd do fewer things.
I currently work a 4 day week with Wednesdays off and it's like magic
And to show how much of this is personal, during normal times, I'd consider a singleton day in the middle of the week an incredible waste relative to 3-day weekend (or even better a 4-day weekend once every two weeks) so that I could travel places.
Have you actually tried this?
I’ve tried both, for extended periods and I ended up much preferring the Wednesday off.
I’ve tried both, for extended periods and I ended up much preferring the Wednesday off.
Not systematically but when I take an odd day off it's essentially always Friday for a 3-day weekend. Taking a day off in the middle of a week because of an appointment or whatever tends to dump me out of the work week routine a bit. I can deal with it--I have to when I travel--but it isn't my preference if I'm in all week.
I think that makes a big difference. I would (and did) make the same choice as you when it was a sporadic thing, but when I had the ability to do it every week, I quickly realized I felt (and performed) a lot better with the Wednesday off.
The Wednesday off is not so bad for this; 2 vacation days and you're looking at a 5 day holiday
Sure, any arbitrary day off can be bridged to a weekend using vacation days. But normally I overwhelmingly use my vacation time for week or multi-week trips plus maybe some days around business travel.
That goes for any weekday though, so not really a benefit except that you can have a five day holiday with only two extra days off that can include any specific weekday in it, but this holds true for Monday and Friday as the fixed day off as well.
Only if you have Tuesdays and Thursdays off you won't be able to get a contiguous five day holiday with only two days extra off that can include any weekday (e.g., with a fixed Thursday off, you can't include Tuesday in your five day block without taking a third extra day off).
My wife and I both work four days a week and have Fridays off. It makes it much easier to get into the weekend mindset.
Only if you have Tuesdays and Thursdays off you won't be able to get a contiguous five day holiday with only two days extra off that can include any weekday (e.g., with a fixed Thursday off, you can't include Tuesday in your five day block without taking a third extra day off).
My wife and I both work four days a week and have Fridays off. It makes it much easier to get into the weekend mindset.
Yeah the best thing about Wednesday for me is that you can only accumulate so much stress in 2 days
you can take friday before the weekend and monday after the weekend, with your tuesday to get five days. moreover, just tsking off one day gives you 4 days. the latter is true if your regular day off is any day except wednesday.
Same here! Wednesday used to be the day I had college while working four days a week but when I quit college it just became my day off. I find that it works quite well for me while most of my colleagues seem to prefer having a three day weekend with either Friday or Monday being their day off.
I suppose there's pros and cons to either approach (which I haven't really researched at all yet) but to me right now breaking up a continuous stream of work days makes total sense (while still fitting for the 9-5 custom, which I, like many people, don't prefer but I haven't had any better opportunities yet).
I suppose there's pros and cons to either approach (which I haven't really researched at all yet) but to me right now breaking up a continuous stream of work days makes total sense (while still fitting for the 9-5 custom, which I, like many people, don't prefer but I haven't had any better opportunities yet).
It probably depends on whether you tend to favor a midweek break or whether you want to take trips or do other activities on weekends that benefit from a longer block of time. (If you just hang around the house or otherwise do short local activities I'm guessing people are more likely to "waste" that extra weekend day than if it's a midweek break.)
Having every second week a Friday off (or random other weekday, if I announce it ahead of time) gives me an amazing amount of breathing room and flexibility compared to my girlfriend who has to be on the clock 10:00-16:30 ("key hours") every day of the week without fail (well, holidays, but those are planned months ahead and not flexible at all). It docks 10% of my pay but it's so worth it.
I love 4 day work week with Wednesdays off. It makes life so much better. The main issue is that not everyone is on this schedule so people try to plan mandatory meetings on Wednesdays.
Whenever I hear people propose "radical" ideas about work shifts and weekends, I always wonder how they expect it to work at e.g. nuclear power plants and 911 call centers. Most people, given the opportunity, would opt to take the day off whenever they felt like it and come in and leave work as they please. Creatives seem to propose these ideas as universal, but never give even a passing mention about work that is necessarily shift-based. The handwavy answer is "oh we'll incentivize that" or "oh we'll automate it so they don't have to do shift work!" They should just be honest and say that they want special privileges for work and aren't concerned about putting any further thought into it.
Anyway, this tweet is really someone trying to turn the thought "I don't really like my work schedule"/"Some people don't like their work schedule" into something profound.
Anyway, this tweet is really someone trying to turn the thought "I don't really like my work schedule"/"Some people don't like their work schedule" into something profound.
Well, I can say as someone who supports flexible scheduling and has run a team that way it's not so much that I ignored or didn't think about jobs where it didn't work so much as different jobs have different requirements.
I ran a team of software developers, system administrators, and a help desk. The software devs had near complete freedom of scheduling, the sysadmins had a little less, and the help desk had almost none since they needed to be there when the people they were helping were. Everyone had as much flexibility as their job allowed and it worked great. It sucked that the help desk didn't have the flexibility, but they understood why, and I tried to find ways to provide other perks. Plus on the flip side they'd never find themselves trying to resolve an outage at 1 in the morning on a Sunday.
I ran a team of software developers, system administrators, and a help desk. The software devs had near complete freedom of scheduling, the sysadmins had a little less, and the help desk had almost none since they needed to be there when the people they were helping were. Everyone had as much flexibility as their job allowed and it worked great. It sucked that the help desk didn't have the flexibility, but they understood why, and I tried to find ways to provide other perks. Plus on the flip side they'd never find themselves trying to resolve an outage at 1 in the morning on a Sunday.
The author says "isn't for everyone", not "is for no one".
Your point about 911 call centers is true, but the principle is just that the work schedule needs to mesh with the job role itself. E.g. restaurants have to be open for meal times, customer service needs to be around when customers are around.
Your point about 911 call centers is true, but the principle is just that the work schedule needs to mesh with the job role itself. E.g. restaurants have to be open for meal times, customer service needs to be around when customers are around.
I assumed this argument was restricted those industries that have 9-5 and weekends & holidays off as the status quo: most b2b and some b2c.
I can see how this issue would come up for creatives though. Some jobs have their hours or shifts dictated by the complexities of the profession: for doctors and nurses, handing off patients to new caregivers can be complex and it’d be easy to lose information in the process: the marginal utility of keeping the same person in charge vs the marginal risk that they’re too tired and would make a mistake is something that’s being studied. For creatives, the 9-5 seems to be much more akin to a vestigial organ than a system driven by first principles.
I can see how this issue would come up for creatives though. Some jobs have their hours or shifts dictated by the complexities of the profession: for doctors and nurses, handing off patients to new caregivers can be complex and it’d be easy to lose information in the process: the marginal utility of keeping the same person in charge vs the marginal risk that they’re too tired and would make a mistake is something that’s being studied. For creatives, the 9-5 seems to be much more akin to a vestigial organ than a system driven by first principles.
Beware of history when mucking with weekends: https://www.history.com/news/soviet-union-stalin-weekend-lab...
What are we to beware? Most of the discussion here is about how increase individual choices over work time. That article details how individual choices was eliminated to increase control over workers.
On a tangent: I derive significant amount of guilty pleasure by slacking for a whole day mid-week. Much more than I do from a "proper" weekend.
I believe that's because as time rolls we assign minor duties to ourselves for the weekend, and that weekend becomes just another time of work filled with worry and a sense of obligation. An unplanned day off, by contrast, has no duties.
Now if only I could replicate the same sense of freedom on the regular weekend I would be the happiest man alive.
I believe that's because as time rolls we assign minor duties to ourselves for the weekend, and that weekend becomes just another time of work filled with worry and a sense of obligation. An unplanned day off, by contrast, has no duties.
Now if only I could replicate the same sense of freedom on the regular weekend I would be the happiest man alive.
I commented on this before and I will again. The popular alt schedule shared in a reply (Wed off) is great if your life's purpose is to maximize your work performance in detriment of personal time. That is, if you don't have a work-life balance already. It is not surprising then that people who try to maximize their work come with schedules that are worse for personal time.
Instead, especially in our more privileged profession, you should be pacing yourself so that you are not utterly broken by Saturday. Then you can take a full two-days off and do whatever you want, there are so many more things you can do with a two-day off in a row that you cannot do with single days, from simple organizing dinners with friends to weekend getaways.
Instead, especially in our more privileged profession, you should be pacing yourself so that you are not utterly broken by Saturday. Then you can take a full two-days off and do whatever you want, there are so many more things you can do with a two-day off in a row that you cannot do with single days, from simple organizing dinners with friends to weekend getaways.
Wednesday off wouldn't be for me; I'd prefer long weekends. But comments about how Wednesday off is great because it limits the stress buildup in the course of a week really makes me think something is off. If things are so bad that you can only work two days straight before crashing, something's wrong.
Absolutely agree but it would be darn hard to manage with kids. I might be more productive on a Saturday than on a Tuesday, but hard to explain to the kids that you'll miss half the weekend because I wrote better on Saturdays than on Tuesdays.
This is one of the bigger effects of the general downside that social interactions may become difficult, depending on your circles.
Well you don't need to optimize for productivity, you can optimize for enjoyment, stress-levels, ability to do admin.
And presumably on Tuesday you would have the energy to do something fun with your kids.
Also, huge numbers of people have to work at the weekends. From highly-paid doctors to fast-food employees. Presumably their kids understand.
Also, huge numbers of people have to work at the weekends. From highly-paid doctors to fast-food employees. Presumably their kids understand.
I guess the point is that schools aren't going to adapt to a schedule that isn't Monday to Friday (at least where I live). Spending time with the kids on Tuesday is going to be about 8 hours less time than I could spend with them on a Saturday when they are always free.
You're right that kids understand but it's far from ideal when their schedules are so firmly fixed M-F with weekends free.
You're right that kids understand but it's far from ideal when their schedules are so firmly fixed M-F with weekends free.
I tend to agree.
There are some days in the week when I'm not checked in mentally and very unproductive. During those days, I'm better served to either sleep more or do something light to recharge for the next day/later in the week.
And then there are some days including the weekend where I can code for the entire day non-stop and feel energetic.
I still think having standardized days for working and rest is best for the sake of having multiple hours of operation overlap (e.g. schools, most businesses and government operations).
There are some days in the week when I'm not checked in mentally and very unproductive. During those days, I'm better served to either sleep more or do something light to recharge for the next day/later in the week.
And then there are some days including the weekend where I can code for the entire day non-stop and feel energetic.
I still think having standardized days for working and rest is best for the sake of having multiple hours of operation overlap (e.g. schools, most businesses and government operations).
When I was at Big Tech Company I would just tell my boss if I was having one of those days and make it up on the weekend rather than using PTO. It was never a problem. It's amazing how much a good professional relationship with management helps.
I'm not sure what issue people have with this statement. Sure, if you have collaborative work you need to do that you're just going to blow off. But in general?
There have been a number of times in the current situation where it's been a nice day and the weekend has a lousy forecast and I didn't have any meetings or only had them in the morning. I've just told my manager I'm taking the afternoon off and would make it up on Saturday. TBH, I didn't even really need to ask. I'm not sure why this would be controversial.
There have been a number of times in the current situation where it's been a nice day and the weekend has a lousy forecast and I didn't have any meetings or only had them in the morning. I've just told my manager I'm taking the afternoon off and would make it up on Saturday. TBH, I didn't even really need to ask. I'm not sure why this would be controversial.
But perhaps you feel energetic during the weekend because there is less pressure. Or less distraction.
If we standardize on seven day work-weeks then some of those benefits may be gone.
If we standardize on seven day work-weeks then some of those benefits may be gone.
I’m currently shifting my schedule to work Saturdays and take off Mondays (I don’t have children, and my partner is flexible). Before the pandemic, I tried to block off time for deep work by booking multiple hours on my calendar each day.
The shift to Saturday has been mostly great. I get a full day of deep work when nobody else is willing to work (Saturday), and neither Monday nor Friday had meetings I cared much about. Being able to walk around on a Monday is way nicer during the pandemic. Again, I get that others can’t replicate it if they have other commitments — importantly, both partners would need to have this flexibility, and most children’s’ schools probably wouldn’t be up for it :).
The main thing as many are highlighting below is about overlap (and predictability for recurring meetings). I mostly work with people in US/Pacific, but also US/Eastern and somewhat less often Europe (London and Warsaw) and Sydney. So that’s already unschedulable anyway. People have been reasonably receptive to “oh, I see, yes you don’t work that day” though a good chunk ask “Do you really work on Saturday?” (to which I not only really work on Saturday, I probably get the most useful things done on that day).
The shift to Saturday has been mostly great. I get a full day of deep work when nobody else is willing to work (Saturday), and neither Monday nor Friday had meetings I cared much about. Being able to walk around on a Monday is way nicer during the pandemic. Again, I get that others can’t replicate it if they have other commitments — importantly, both partners would need to have this flexibility, and most children’s’ schools probably wouldn’t be up for it :).
The main thing as many are highlighting below is about overlap (and predictability for recurring meetings). I mostly work with people in US/Pacific, but also US/Eastern and somewhat less often Europe (London and Warsaw) and Sydney. So that’s already unschedulable anyway. People have been reasonably receptive to “oh, I see, yes you don’t work that day” though a good chunk ask “Do you really work on Saturday?” (to which I not only really work on Saturday, I probably get the most useful things done on that day).
i would prefer sunny days off, and bad weather days for meetings.
(Hi Dean!?)
But how would you synchronize the poor weather days of Seattle with the nice days the Bay Area?
Then again, it’s definitely something I miss from doing research at school. Nice day, go for a hike. Bad day, time to finally rerun those experiments. Sadly, I have way more meetings than those days...
But how would you synchronize the poor weather days of Seattle with the nice days the Bay Area?
Then again, it’s definitely something I miss from doing research at school. Nice day, go for a hike. Bad day, time to finally rerun those experiments. Sadly, I have way more meetings than those days...
yeah i dunno how people live in the PNW, i was totally depressed the 8 months i spent in vancouver BC!
it would be kind of cool to have calendar software which has a "bad weather" feature: correlate the 10-day forecasts of the required attendees, and pick the least sunny timeslot. mind you i'd also want the software to keep track of how frequently i've hiked, because even a sunny day of meetings is OK after a couple days of hiking. gotta mix it up. i'm sure this bin-packing problem has a reasonable enough solution :)
it would be kind of cool to have calendar software which has a "bad weather" feature: correlate the 10-day forecasts of the required attendees, and pick the least sunny timeslot. mind you i'd also want the software to keep track of how frequently i've hiked, because even a sunny day of meetings is OK after a couple days of hiking. gotta mix it up. i'm sure this bin-packing problem has a reasonable enough solution :)
I think this is something every grad student already knows.
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By prefixing a title with “Unpopular Opinion” an author is essentially applying for a license to say something unpopular and not get too criticized for it. This is cowardly, people should just state their opinions and be open to whatever reaction it spawns.
Not mainstream, but I think the idea has been popular for a while [1].
>6.4
>A manager went to his programmers and told them: "As regards to your work hours: you are going to have to come in at nine in the morning and leave at five in the afternoon." At this, all of them became angry and several resigned on the spot.
>So the manager said: "All right, in that case you may set your own working hours, as long as you finish your projects on schedule." The programmers, now satisfied, began to come in at noon and work to the wee hours of the morning.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALaTm6VzTBw
[1] https://www.mit.edu/~xela/tao.html