Students Are Better Off Without a Laptop in the Classroom(scientificamerican.com)
scientificamerican.com
Students Are Better Off Without a Laptop in the Classroom
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/students-are-better-off-without-a-laptop-in-the-classroom/
254 comments
> I realize my experience is anecdotal
FWIW I'm not totally convinced that the paper isn't also anecdotal. They selected for people who would agree to have their internet activity spied on in exchange for extra credit, and then from that group selected only for people using the internet -- not their computers, but the internet! -- in more than half the lectures. And did all of this in a large enrollment undergraduate gen ed intro course with lectures that lasted two hours.
FWIW I'm not totally convinced that the paper isn't also anecdotal. They selected for people who would agree to have their internet activity spied on in exchange for extra credit, and then from that group selected only for people using the internet -- not their computers, but the internet! -- in more than half the lectures. And did all of this in a large enrollment undergraduate gen ed intro course with lectures that lasted two hours.
These processes are called a self-selection bias and a sampling bias. Please don't use the word "anecdotal" in such contexts.
The use of "anecdotal" here is a rhetorical device, mirroring parent's language to emphasize that strongly biased data isn't necessarily any more valuable than mere anecdote. This is a conversation, not a peer review.
Please don't tell someone what words they are allowed to use in what contexts.
1. "Please don't" is hardly offensive or authoritative.
2. If you disagree, you were laughably hypocritical in your post.
Please don't define what phrases are "offensive" or "authoritative" in a conversation, especially after those phrases have been used. Context will have already defined them for you.
is there really any reason to expect the students who didn't take free points in exchange for privacy to outperform the observed group?
Sure, the results pertain more to excluding the internet from the classroom, but really that's just splitting hairs imo
Sure, the results pertain more to excluding the internet from the classroom, but really that's just splitting hairs imo
That could depend on a two part hypothesis that I just came up with off the top of my head:
1) people who are more informed care more about privacy
2) you become more informed by being the type of person who seeks out and successfully obtains information and not being distracted
If 2) and 1) hold, your methodology will be biased to those liable to undertake distracting activities or be distracted. Furthermore, perhaps some would not even partake in the study because it's a distraction relative to why they're in the class in the first place.
Not saying that is demonstrable or true. Don't downvote the hypothetical messenger and all :p
1) people who are more informed care more about privacy
2) you become more informed by being the type of person who seeks out and successfully obtains information and not being distracted
If 2) and 1) hold, your methodology will be biased to those liable to undertake distracting activities or be distracted. Furthermore, perhaps some would not even partake in the study because it's a distraction relative to why they're in the class in the first place.
Not saying that is demonstrable or true. Don't downvote the hypothetical messenger and all :p
Is there any reason we should be guessing at this when the experimenters could've chosen some other incentive (or none at all)?
And yes, I'd expect weaker students to be the more likely to spend their time / privacy on extra points.
And yes, I'd expect weaker students to be the more likely to spend their time / privacy on extra points.
The paper is entirely anecdotal. It's a small, self-selected group who also selected when they would be tracked. I do believe that the group's worse performance was related to their laptop usage, though. So a third variable, perhaps a quality of the students, caused them to do the observed behavior (have a laptop, sign up, log into the process and then) and do worse in their courses.
Finally, doing slightly worse on two hour gen eds is also not the same thing as doing worse in general. Those classes are ones students are forced to take, often with professors who are forced to teach them. I know my gen eds were lower quality classes, with more people, less participation, worse teaching, and worse assignments.
Finally, doing slightly worse on two hour gen eds is also not the same thing as doing worse in general. Those classes are ones students are forced to take, often with professors who are forced to teach them. I know my gen eds were lower quality classes, with more people, less participation, worse teaching, and worse assignments.
>I opened up a word processor, focused my eyes on the professor's slides or visual aids, and typed everything I saw
There are studies that show that verbatim computer note taking is actually inferior to remembering the lecture content:
A Learning Secret: Don’t Take Notes with a Laptop
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-learning-secret...
There are studies that show that verbatim computer note taking is actually inferior to remembering the lecture content:
A Learning Secret: Don’t Take Notes with a Laptop
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-learning-secret...
>There are studies that show that verbatim computer note taking is actually inferior to remembering the lecture content:
I think people should be careful when looking at such things. 'There are studies' is not really the same as 'there is scientific consensus with demonstrated repeatability'. Ultimately though, you can't tell someone they're doing it wrong when they're successful, so YMMV.
I think people should be careful when looking at such things. 'There are studies' is not really the same as 'there is scientific consensus with demonstrated repeatability'. Ultimately though, you can't tell someone they're doing it wrong when they're successful, so YMMV.
Also a generalized statistical result doesn't really apply to an individual. Maybe verbatim note taking is inferior for 98% of people. Doesn't mean you shouldn't do it if it works for you.
Maybe they aren't as effective as hand written notes. but in my case Neatly typed, well organized notes using OneNote 2003 were more effective than hastily hand written mostly illegible notes.
IMO it's important to distinguish between two kinds of note-taking.
The first kind are notes that you take because the process helps memorize in that moment. The writing is a tool to help you manipulate and focus the idea in your head. The output is much less important than the experience. These are the records that -- in practice -- you will seldom go back to read.
The second kind are notes you take because you can't memorize them right now and plan to review or reuse them later in some way. When taking notes this way, you mentally avoid thinking too hard about what the note means, in order to copy it faithfully.
Personally, I think handwriting works better for the write-only notes, while typing (and copy-pasting, and links, etc.) are great for notes that are going to be reused later.
The first kind are notes that you take because the process helps memorize in that moment. The writing is a tool to help you manipulate and focus the idea in your head. The output is much less important than the experience. These are the records that -- in practice -- you will seldom go back to read.
The second kind are notes you take because you can't memorize them right now and plan to review or reuse them later in some way. When taking notes this way, you mentally avoid thinking too hard about what the note means, in order to copy it faithfully.
Personally, I think handwriting works better for the write-only notes, while typing (and copy-pasting, and links, etc.) are great for notes that are going to be reused later.
The reason hand written notes are more effective is that it helps towards better learning just by writing the thing down and slowing it to a pace where your mind can make memories. Even if afterwards the notes are completely illegible, I would argue it's more effective than typed notes.
Slowing down to a pace comfortable for you means, at least in my classes, that you'll miss the next thing in the presentation. Notes are not for immediate learning, they're for assisting in learning later on. As an physics engineering student, I take notes with a combination of LaTeX and OneNote on my Surface 3.
Additional benefits by using a laptop to take notes is that they are searchable, archived and accessible for however long you like, and sharable between classmates. Hand written notes can obviously be shared and archived as well, but nowhere near as easily.
Additional benefits by using a laptop to take notes is that they are searchable, archived and accessible for however long you like, and sharable between classmates. Hand written notes can obviously be shared and archived as well, but nowhere near as easily.
>> Slowing down to a pace comfortable for you means, at least in my classes, that you'll miss the next thing in the presentation.
That's exactly the point: you get a free exercise in divided attention, plus you are forced to digest your notes to only essentials, not full transcript of the lecture. That process is what makes handwritten notes superior - it forces you to focus and think, not just mindlessly type.
And for things that you didn't have time to note you still have a textbook. Handwritten notes are just outline, a basis to build upon.
That's exactly the point: you get a free exercise in divided attention, plus you are forced to digest your notes to only essentials, not full transcript of the lecture. That process is what makes handwritten notes superior - it forces you to focus and think, not just mindlessly type.
And for things that you didn't have time to note you still have a textbook. Handwritten notes are just outline, a basis to build upon.
> I take notes with a combination of LaTeX and OneNote on my Surface 3
I wonder how you do that - I can't imagine I would be able to make notes in LaTeX in real-time. To me, paper is just faster than any computer solution. Also sometimes you need to draw a diagram or arrow in the notes.
> Slowing down to a pace comfortable for you means, at least in my classes, that you'll miss the next thing in the presentation.
I was thinking about this recently. I teach (assembly programming) in our company using slideshow. But most teachers at my university used blackboard (for math). I am beginning to think that using blackboard is better, despite more effort, because it also forces the teacher to slow down.
I wonder how you do that - I can't imagine I would be able to make notes in LaTeX in real-time. To me, paper is just faster than any computer solution. Also sometimes you need to draw a diagram or arrow in the notes.
> Slowing down to a pace comfortable for you means, at least in my classes, that you'll miss the next thing in the presentation.
I was thinking about this recently. I teach (assembly programming) in our company using slideshow. But most teachers at my university used blackboard (for math). I am beginning to think that using blackboard is better, despite more effort, because it also forces the teacher to slow down.
One of my favorite electrical engineering professors gave incredibly well-planned lectures via overhead transparencies. He was quick to adjust the pace of an individual lecture to the audience, but also provided his presentations as PDF downloads. His presentations were supplemental to the textbooks, but served as amazing base notes. In his classes, I found myself writing prompts for further review and stray observations, rather than attempting to summarize as the lecture progressed.
Having worked on online learning applications since then, I still think that his was the best system for transferring complex knowledge in a classroom setting.
An example PDF that I found through a quick Google search: http://www.ittc.ku.edu/~jstiles/312/handouts/312_Introductio...
Having worked on online learning applications since then, I still think that his was the best system for transferring complex knowledge in a classroom setting.
An example PDF that I found through a quick Google search: http://www.ittc.ku.edu/~jstiles/312/handouts/312_Introductio...
Can you really write LaTeX equations fast enough to keep up with the lecture? I'm impressed.
When I was in school I was often hard pressed to keep up with simple paper and pencil.
When I was in school I was often hard pressed to keep up with simple paper and pencil.
Seems like an exaggeration. I really doubt there's anyone taking realtime notes in LaTeX.
It's totally doable. I type fast and know my LaTeX. Only time I feel like I'm at a significant disadvantage is when new symbols are introduced that I have to look up.
Only math is done in LaTeX, for clarification. They're rendered as images and imported into OneNote (via EqualX, if anyone's looking to do the same).
Only math is done in LaTeX, for clarification. They're rendered as images and imported into OneNote (via EqualX, if anyone's looking to do the same).
You're only supposed to write 20% of the time (so, like 5% of the material) when you hand-write notes.
This doesn't work well in certain classes (e.g. math classes where you have to copy every word of a proof and analyze it later).
This doesn't work well in certain classes (e.g. math classes where you have to copy every word of a proof and analyze it later).
Being a human photocopier in maths/physics lectures was the worst thing about university, when you're 6 blackboards behind. That was in 1999, hopefully it's changed now.
I don't see the point in making notes that fancy. Writing them down (or typing them) is primarily just an aid to remember the content.
If you're at a computer looking for a reference then there are better sources available than hastily typed notes.
If you're at a computer looking for a reference then there are better sources available than hastily typed notes.
I've always wondered about this.
What makes handwriting different from typing in terms of memory recall, other than the fact that most, if not everyone, have written with pen and paper for far longer than typing?
What makes handwriting different from typing in terms of memory recall, other than the fact that most, if not everyone, have written with pen and paper for far longer than typing?
Greater number of variables employed in creation. Any one of which could be a hook to remember by (location on page, made a particularly nice letter, where my pencil broke, after the smudge, before/after my hand started to cramp).
Typing vs handwriting is like finding the right door in an unnumbered hotel vs a picturesque medieval town
Typing vs handwriting is like finding the right door in an unnumbered hotel vs a picturesque medieval town
>Any one of which could be a hook to remember by (location on page, made a particularly nice letter, where my pencil broke, after the smudge, before/after my hand started to cramp).
I still don't get how that'd be any different. Location on a page corresponds with which notebook and section I may have taken notes down in OneNote, especially since you can also position notes all over the page.
All kinds of factors fit both of the media, IMO.
I still don't get how that'd be any different. Location on a page corresponds with which notebook and section I may have taken notes down in OneNote, especially since you can also position notes all over the page.
All kinds of factors fit both of the media, IMO.
There have been studies done with children that come to the same conclusion. For some reason, writing with pen and paper is better for recall. I don't know why, though.
In my experience it's everything--the scratchy pencil sensation dragging across the paper, cedar wood smell, that little curve at the end of letter e, ease of annotations anywhere on the paper, drawing arrows to connect pages because it doesn't fit in one page...
Wouldn't that only be effective insofar as initial recall goes? If the handwriting is illegible and you don't remember something, then you've missed out on everything that you can't remember. Digital notes may make you miss more on the first pass, but at least you'll have material to study.
75% of the value of notes is it helps me keep focused. My mind wants to wander away ("that reminds me of...") - 10 minutes latter I realize I've been daydreaming about some camping trip years ago and I have no idea what the lecture is about anymore. Taking notes helps me focus by giving me a goal: what about the lecture is important enough that I want to write it down. Sometimes I review my notes latter, but generally I find it isn't worth the time.
A good compromise imo is to type them out in class and hand write them later.
I don't disagree that there are pros to hand writing notes. However There are other ways to build those connections in your mind.
I spent my first year and a half of college at a community college. They arent exactly known for their academic rigor. However first semester I took World History 1. There were only like 3 tests and 5 Quizzes that made up our grade. The tests were not multiple choice or fill in the blank like some professors might do. They were several short essay questions and a long form essay. You would have a choice of like 6 short essay questions which you had to pick 3 to answer. and then had a choice of 3 long essay topics from which we had to pick one.
The Professor about 2 weeks prior to the exams gave us a handout of 12 short essay questions and 6 long essay questions. He randomized the questions that were on the test so that while we knew what questions were possibly going to be on the test we did not know which ones would. He also expected us to know both the facts such as people, places, dates and events. but also the concepts. If you only got the concepts but did not know the factual material you were in trouble and vice versa.
I took all my notes in that class on a laptop using OneNote 2003 (It came out right at the start of my first semester in college.)
As the semester went on I got into the habit of skimming over my previous notes for that class and adding annotations about connections to other concepts and facts in the class. I also would review my notes at the end of the day while it was still fresh in my mind, but had taken some time to digest the material to add things that I missed or make my notes more clear.
When it came time to start preparing for the tests the first thing I did was take my notes, create a new section in my notebook just for that test. I took all my notes for that test and instead of organizing them by lecture, i condensed them into a more concise and coherent form that linked all the different concepts and facts together. I also outlined my strategy for each question. Then I printed it out and put it in a ring binder, as I refined my notes, I printed out new copies for the binder. I probably printed about 200 pages for each test.
Maybe Writing them out would have been more effective for memorization in most cases. But to me there was simply too much information to memorize in one pass. and Wrot memorization was not going to cut in this class. I also think the fact that I was constantly working with those notes and synthesizing new material from them, replaced alot of the feedback loop of writing it all out by hand.
I learned a lot of history in that class. But more importantly I learned how to interpret requirements, sift through large amounts of information, making connections between that information and developing strategies to accomplish a goal.
I spent my first year and a half of college at a community college. They arent exactly known for their academic rigor. However first semester I took World History 1. There were only like 3 tests and 5 Quizzes that made up our grade. The tests were not multiple choice or fill in the blank like some professors might do. They were several short essay questions and a long form essay. You would have a choice of like 6 short essay questions which you had to pick 3 to answer. and then had a choice of 3 long essay topics from which we had to pick one.
The Professor about 2 weeks prior to the exams gave us a handout of 12 short essay questions and 6 long essay questions. He randomized the questions that were on the test so that while we knew what questions were possibly going to be on the test we did not know which ones would. He also expected us to know both the facts such as people, places, dates and events. but also the concepts. If you only got the concepts but did not know the factual material you were in trouble and vice versa.
I took all my notes in that class on a laptop using OneNote 2003 (It came out right at the start of my first semester in college.)
As the semester went on I got into the habit of skimming over my previous notes for that class and adding annotations about connections to other concepts and facts in the class. I also would review my notes at the end of the day while it was still fresh in my mind, but had taken some time to digest the material to add things that I missed or make my notes more clear.
When it came time to start preparing for the tests the first thing I did was take my notes, create a new section in my notebook just for that test. I took all my notes for that test and instead of organizing them by lecture, i condensed them into a more concise and coherent form that linked all the different concepts and facts together. I also outlined my strategy for each question. Then I printed it out and put it in a ring binder, as I refined my notes, I printed out new copies for the binder. I probably printed about 200 pages for each test.
Maybe Writing them out would have been more effective for memorization in most cases. But to me there was simply too much information to memorize in one pass. and Wrot memorization was not going to cut in this class. I also think the fact that I was constantly working with those notes and synthesizing new material from them, replaced alot of the feedback loop of writing it all out by hand.
I learned a lot of history in that class. But more importantly I learned how to interpret requirements, sift through large amounts of information, making connections between that information and developing strategies to accomplish a goal.
I took a two pass approach: hand written notes (I can write equations faster than I can LaTeX them) and then follow up by writing a LaTeX document for each lecture. I had a rule that I wasn't allowed to continue typing up until I understood how each step in the derivation was made. If it was non-obvious, I'd write textbook-style comments around things to explain how to get from line to the next.
Worked pretty well for most courses and meant I had explanations of everything come revise time. The only problem is it took about 4 years to really nail down the routine and by the time I had it perfect (I really wish I'd done it in first year), it was time to leave. Such is life.
Worked pretty well for most courses and meant I had explanations of everything come revise time. The only problem is it took about 4 years to really nail down the routine and by the time I had it perfect (I really wish I'd done it in first year), it was time to leave. Such is life.
You typeset all your lecture notes? I'm not sure this would benefit a student. Something I wish I did when I was in school is download the solutions manuals and work problems. I considered that cheating when I was in school but now I think it is just being time effective.
"You typeset all your lecture notes? I'm not sure this would benefit a student."
The poster is doing this in addition to actually writing the notes - I've done something similar. Sometimes I take the initial notes on a computer. Later I hand-write them once or twice. Once immediately and once later on to narrow focus down on things I was having more trouble remembering.
The biggest benefit is that such a system gives some repetition. For me, this repetition is superior to only reading notes because I wind up working with the information physically as it changes form. I do get better results in some subjects if I work plenty of problems in addition to this - for example, foreign/second language and maths.
The only times I've found this sort of thing generally unhelpful is with things like music, art, and physical education/sports. These rely on a lot of muscle memory, and it is hard to get by writing.
The common thread in all of these is practice and review. The main difference is in the way they are carried out.
The poster is doing this in addition to actually writing the notes - I've done something similar. Sometimes I take the initial notes on a computer. Later I hand-write them once or twice. Once immediately and once later on to narrow focus down on things I was having more trouble remembering.
The biggest benefit is that such a system gives some repetition. For me, this repetition is superior to only reading notes because I wind up working with the information physically as it changes form. I do get better results in some subjects if I work plenty of problems in addition to this - for example, foreign/second language and maths.
The only times I've found this sort of thing generally unhelpful is with things like music, art, and physical education/sports. These rely on a lot of muscle memory, and it is hard to get by writing.
The common thread in all of these is practice and review. The main difference is in the way they are carried out.
Agreed on the repetition. I tried using my Powerbook G3 in class, and there was no way to keep up. I would carry a colored folder for each subject, each with its own yellow note pad, for quickly taking down lectures. I never went digital, but would meticulously transfer the notes into those green, gridded, National 33-209 spiral notebooks :) A few years ago I bought a couple 33-209s on Amazon and was really disappointed to find the quality had taken a nose dive. Those were a darn good spiral notebook!
Horses for courses, as it were. I both wrote (in lecture) and typeset (at home). I spent a lot of time trying to optimise the revision process. All I can say is that it worked for me and I got a good grade.
Typesetting gave me a set of digital, neat lectures notes (goodbye folders of paper). I also understood everything better because I'd read through it twice. Most importantly it was good bargaining material for skipping lectures and getting notes from other people.
I also flash-carded all my lectures in 3rd/4th year which undoubtedly bumped my grade up. The key was timing it so your peak recall was at the exam, given the volume of information. It was useless for long term memory though.
Typesetting gave me a set of digital, neat lectures notes (goodbye folders of paper). I also understood everything better because I'd read through it twice. Most importantly it was good bargaining material for skipping lectures and getting notes from other people.
I also flash-carded all my lectures in 3rd/4th year which undoubtedly bumped my grade up. The key was timing it so your peak recall was at the exam, given the volume of information. It was useless for long term memory though.
That's a pretty unrealistic experiment, though.
The full study is paywalled, but based on the SA article it had students take notes two ways, then tested them on retention and synthesis later - without any secondary study. That's not necessarily a good mirror for actual long-running courses.
I used both approaches in college. Longhand note-taking was vastly better for my retention of material, I don't dispute that. But computer transcription let me get everything, and sometimes that mattered more. I had to study more outside class when I typed, but I was aware of that and it was a worthwhile tradeoff for completeness.
Professors are not necessarily good, or even tolerable, at supporting effective learning strategies. They can click through dense Powerpoint slides faster than I can type or write. And they can refuse to release those slides, then test on material from them not available elsewhere. If writing means I get 60% and retain it, while typing means I get 90% and have to study further, typing wins without question.
More broadly, my take would be: many real classrooms are vastly less student-friendly than your average study environment. That changes what works.
The full study is paywalled, but based on the SA article it had students take notes two ways, then tested them on retention and synthesis later - without any secondary study. That's not necessarily a good mirror for actual long-running courses.
I used both approaches in college. Longhand note-taking was vastly better for my retention of material, I don't dispute that. But computer transcription let me get everything, and sometimes that mattered more. I had to study more outside class when I typed, but I was aware of that and it was a worthwhile tradeoff for completeness.
Professors are not necessarily good, or even tolerable, at supporting effective learning strategies. They can click through dense Powerpoint slides faster than I can type or write. And they can refuse to release those slides, then test on material from them not available elsewhere. If writing means I get 60% and retain it, while typing means I get 90% and have to study further, typing wins without question.
More broadly, my take would be: many real classrooms are vastly less student-friendly than your average study environment. That changes what works.
I'd really like to see a comparison of written notes on a laptop vs paper. Many schools are moving towards tablet PC devices to enable handwritten notes on the computer.
I did this study! In med school I did a survey of my class. I asked them to estimate how many hours they spent engaged in various study behaviors, and asked as one question, what quintile of the class they thought they stood in. Allowing for the Duning-Kruger effect, taking notes by hand was one of the top three things you could do (out of about 30), taking no notes had no effect, and taking notes with a laptop was the single worst idea you could have. N = 84 of 150.
What I meant was taking notes "by hand" on a computer using a stylus.
Sounds like a neat study - would you be willing to share your write-up?
Apparently writing in cursive is superior to non-cursive when it comes to remembering what you wrote down too. That being said I take notes on my laptop all the time just because I like having everything stored in one place, backed up, organized, etc..
I believe that is true, but it is also faster to type than write so if you type twice as fast but remember 50% less it's a wash.
It's almost as if people can live their own lives and figure out if note taking on a computer works or doesn't for them?
> not for social media distractions
But that is the main issue, isn't it? The social media machine with its hunger for "eyeballs" and its myriad of notifications and popups. Shallow entertainment in the form of Youtube videos, always just one click away. Heck, even hypertext with its going-off-on-a-tangent links to external documents.
If you really want to do a focused, deep study of something, turn off the Internet.
But that is the main issue, isn't it? The social media machine with its hunger for "eyeballs" and its myriad of notifications and popups. Shallow entertainment in the form of Youtube videos, always just one click away. Heck, even hypertext with its going-off-on-a-tangent links to external documents.
If you really want to do a focused, deep study of something, turn off the Internet.
Or just log out of any social media. No need to turn off the internet.
Or simply exercise some self-control, and do not visit social media while you are working, studying, or otherwise occupied.
If you hate what you're doing so much, that you have to do something so unhealthy as locking yourself in isolation to perform the task, you probably shouldn't do it. Listen to yourself, and go do what you want to do instead.
If you hate what you're doing so much, that you have to do something so unhealthy as locking yourself in isolation to perform the task, you probably shouldn't do it. Listen to yourself, and go do what you want to do instead.
This is a naive and harmful view of self-control.
You can love something to pieces, yet still find yourself unable to do it, merely because the draw of the internet is too powerful. We are not optimized to deal with the stimulus of the internet. I have found that unfettered access to it is reducing life quality, and I'm not waiting for twenty double-blind peer-reviewed studies to show this obvious reality.
It is much healthier to admit that we have limits, that we are fallible in the face of such overwhelming pleasure, and accept the approach of physically distancing ourselves from the internet.
You can love something to pieces, yet still find yourself unable to do it, merely because the draw of the internet is too powerful. We are not optimized to deal with the stimulus of the internet. I have found that unfettered access to it is reducing life quality, and I'm not waiting for twenty double-blind peer-reviewed studies to show this obvious reality.
It is much healthier to admit that we have limits, that we are fallible in the face of such overwhelming pleasure, and accept the approach of physically distancing ourselves from the internet.
By this logic, all humans are incapable of performing any task due to the existence of the internet. Some yearn for a simpler time, when all humans were incapable of performing any task due to the existence of television, radio, books, friends, meteorology, the opposite sex, or beer.
But if you would rather be distracted by trees and bugs, remarkable vistas and epic adventures, feel free to continue using this narrative to get what you want.
But if you would rather be distracted by trees and bugs, remarkable vistas and epic adventures, feel free to continue using this narrative to get what you want.
Isn't that merely the slippery slope fallacy?
Firstly, the internet does not permanently and completely eliminate our agency, it reduces our agency due to the fallible nature of self-control.
Secondly, all of the other activities you listed do not reduce our agency to the extent that the internet does. Some things are more addictive than others. To claim that meteorology and the internet have the same risk to our agency is absolutely absurd.
Thirdly, establishing distance from the internet (e.g. not involving computers when they aren't necessary, using the computer at the library instead of keeping one at home, adding restrictions to a smartphone or using a dumbphone) is not the same as giving it up altogether.
Firstly, the internet does not permanently and completely eliminate our agency, it reduces our agency due to the fallible nature of self-control.
Secondly, all of the other activities you listed do not reduce our agency to the extent that the internet does. Some things are more addictive than others. To claim that meteorology and the internet have the same risk to our agency is absolutely absurd.
Thirdly, establishing distance from the internet (e.g. not involving computers when they aren't necessary, using the computer at the library instead of keeping one at home, adding restrictions to a smartphone or using a dumbphone) is not the same as giving it up altogether.
> Isn't that merely the slippery slope fallacy?
You're correct, you did present a slippery slope.
> Firstly, the internet does not permanently and completely eliminate our agency...
> You can love something to pieces, yet still find yourself unable to do it, merely because the draw of the internet is too powerful.
Which is it? Is the draw of the internet simply too powerful to ignore? Or is it possible to partially ignore this distraction?
> Secondly, all of the other activities you listed do not reduce our agency to the extent that the internet does.
Internet access reduces your agency? Sorry to hear that. Internet access increases my agency.
> Thirdly, establishing distance from the internet (e.g. not involving computers when they aren't necessary, using the computer at the library instead of keeping one at home, adding restrictions to a smartphone or using a dumbphone) is not the same as giving it up altogether.
> We are not optimized to deal with the stimulus of the internet.
You're excusing convenience. If the internet is so harmful, why risk any contact? And are all parts of the internet equally harmful?
Back to the original point, if you don't want to use the internet, then don't. But if you don't want to use the internet, why are you using it to tell other people that you don't want to use it?
You're correct, you did present a slippery slope.
> Firstly, the internet does not permanently and completely eliminate our agency...
> You can love something to pieces, yet still find yourself unable to do it, merely because the draw of the internet is too powerful.
Which is it? Is the draw of the internet simply too powerful to ignore? Or is it possible to partially ignore this distraction?
> Secondly, all of the other activities you listed do not reduce our agency to the extent that the internet does.
Internet access reduces your agency? Sorry to hear that. Internet access increases my agency.
> Thirdly, establishing distance from the internet (e.g. not involving computers when they aren't necessary, using the computer at the library instead of keeping one at home, adding restrictions to a smartphone or using a dumbphone) is not the same as giving it up altogether.
> We are not optimized to deal with the stimulus of the internet.
You're excusing convenience. If the internet is so harmful, why risk any contact? And are all parts of the internet equally harmful?
Back to the original point, if you don't want to use the internet, then don't. But if you don't want to use the internet, why are you using it to tell other people that you don't want to use it?
Self-control is cognitively expensive. Our short-term impulses rarely align with our long-term goals. There's a surprisingly small intersection between the set of things that feel good right now and the set of things that contribute to a happy and fulfilled life.
Which is why it's important to recognize those intersections, see them coming before they arrive, and act when the time is right. A time for everything, and everything in its own time.
Construct safe spaces for yourself, that always provide what feels good to you, but will only let you contribute to your own (and other people's) long life and prosperity.
Construct safe spaces for yourself, that always provide what feels good to you, but will only let you contribute to your own (and other people's) long life and prosperity.
On the other hand, it is cool when people who are not perfect and does not have iron super awesome self control get advice how to max life. The underlying idea that non perfect people should just forget it is wrong.
Moreover, school has also classes one hates and student need to finish those too. They don't cancel out entertaining classes.
Moreover, school has also classes one hates and student need to finish those too. They don't cancel out entertaining classes.
If you don't want to use the internet, then don't. Feel free to use other tools to help yourself not use that tool.
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Why not take notes on paper instead?
I took a class that basically covered a lot of papers. The lecturer spoke at a mile a minute and it was nigh impossible to write all the important info by hand and the really important parts are not on the slides. Typing on a computer allowed me to write all the juicy bits that made studying a breeze.
I thought the main benefit of taking notes on paper was that it forced you to think and to summarize instead of transcribe.
Exactly. Scientific American also highlighted a study of precisely that issue:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-learning-secret...
Speaking of inaccurate headlines: I know I was better off with a TI-85 in math class, so students don't necessarily have a problem with a computing device itself in a classroom environment as the headline would suggest.
You'd probably be better off with something like a casio fx-115es plus (non graphing scientific calculator). For example: You'd have to remember your integration tables better on not rely on the graphing functions to pull you out of the bog.
+1
I feel in the current education environment the value of memorization is undervalued. There's a reason top athletes practice their fundamental movements. Having muscle (brain?) memory of fundamentals allows for fluid, creative flow without interruption to look up things.
If students aren’t engaged, they aren’t going to become star pupils once you take away their distractions. Perhaps kids attend more lectures than before knowing that they can always listen in while futzing with other things (and otherwise, they may skip some of the classes entirely).
The lecture format is what needs changing. You need a reason to go to class, and there was nothing worse than a professor showing slides from the pages of his own book (say) or droning through anything that could be Googled and read in less time. If there isn’t some live demonstration, or lecture-only material, regular quizzes or other hook, you can’t expect students to fully engage.
The lecture format is what needs changing. You need a reason to go to class, and there was nothing worse than a professor showing slides from the pages of his own book (say) or droning through anything that could be Googled and read in less time. If there isn’t some live demonstration, or lecture-only material, regular quizzes or other hook, you can’t expect students to fully engage.
Most interesting, engaging class I have ever had was Philip Greenspun's short database class at MIT. All day for three days, a cycle of ~15 minute lecture, ~15 minute problem sets worked by each student on their own laptop, ~15 minutes of reviewing student solutions (and, if needed, presenting the "correct" solution).
I imagine that many classes could be presented in a similar format. I also imagine it would be a lot of work on the part of the educators to do this.
I imagine that many classes could be presented in a similar format. I also imagine it would be a lot of work on the part of the educators to do this.
+1 also had a professor who did this for his courses and it was a win. The theory being people only have ~20 minute attention spans, so instruction should be switched up as such. Result was I learned more, actually collaborated with classmates, and motivated me to prepare for class.
That sounds like an excellent format. What were the hours?
I can imagine that taking a lot of planning and refinement over multiple offerings to get the timing just right on the exercises.
I can imagine that taking a lot of planning and refinement over multiple offerings to get the timing just right on the exercises.
It was scheduled for 10-5 three days in a row, with a break for lunch, and a short break in the morning and afternoon. One of the days included a ~1-hour guest lecture from Michael Stonebraker, which did not fit into the lecture/problem set/review format. The last day fizzled out from the format a bit early, concluding with some random discussions.
Web page for the course here:
http://philip.greenspun.com/teaching/three-day-rdbms/
Web page for the course here:
http://philip.greenspun.com/teaching/three-day-rdbms/
> If students aren’t engaged, they aren’t going to become star pupils once you take away their distractions
That's a bit of a straw-man - nobody said anything about turning every student in to star pupils, it's a matter of degrees.
There is no question in my mind that a device capable of being online, using social media, and that is constantly pushing information at you is going to be a higher level distraction than a pen and paper. Reducing that level of distraction will be beneficial for many students, even if they only pay attention to 30% of the lecture instead of 15%, that's still an improvement.
That's a bit of a straw-man - nobody said anything about turning every student in to star pupils, it's a matter of degrees.
There is no question in my mind that a device capable of being online, using social media, and that is constantly pushing information at you is going to be a higher level distraction than a pen and paper. Reducing that level of distraction will be beneficial for many students, even if they only pay attention to 30% of the lecture instead of 15%, that's still an improvement.
What if star pupils do better when given a laptop?
I don't think that there's any question about that, there’s not some kind of one-size-fits-all set of rules that you can make everyone follow. But I can tell you from personal experience that I did my best performance in classes where I brought my laptop to class. Why? The answer is obvious when you look at it—if a class was below my level, and I was only taking it because it was required for my degree, I brought my laptop to stave of the boredom and breezed through the homework and tests.
So the answer to “what if?” question is really just that students are ultimately responsible for their own outcomes, and figuring out that laptops are a liability is part of that.
So the answer to “what if?” question is really just that students are ultimately responsible for their own outcomes, and figuring out that laptops are a liability is part of that.
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I would say that the lecture model works, but only when specific preconditions are met:
1) Eager learners who have reflected on the same material before coming in, to the extent that they know the gaps in their understanding.
2) A lecturer who is above the students' level (on the material) and willing/able to answer arbitrary questions about the topic.
3) Students keeping up and asking questions to ensure that they stay that way (but not so often that progress crawls to a halt).
That was probably typical of medieval universities that taught that way (just a guess though, haven't actually researched it).
Today? Not so much, and so the typical lecture is almost pure waste.
1) Eager learners who have reflected on the same material before coming in, to the extent that they know the gaps in their understanding.
2) A lecturer who is above the students' level (on the material) and willing/able to answer arbitrary questions about the topic.
3) Students keeping up and asking questions to ensure that they stay that way (but not so often that progress crawls to a halt).
That was probably typical of medieval universities that taught that way (just a guess though, haven't actually researched it).
Today? Not so much, and so the typical lecture is almost pure waste.
Almost anything works with eager learners. They learn in spite of the bad teaching methods. They are the best candidates to be autodidacts.
We're discussing university lectures?
If so why are there any non-eager learners?
If so why are there any non-eager learners?
Today it is considered expected to have a degree, but most students do not really understand why, and will not understand until it is too late. They are not motivated, but they know "dad" expects them to get the degree so they slog on learning just enough to get by.
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Among other things, you're also describing what teaching using case studies looks like for example. There's pre-class reading and the class is built around interactive discussions. It's harder to see how this works for most technical topics outside of project-based courses.
Yep, and the article does propose boredom as a possble cause BUT the data seems like excluding it being the major factor.
>In this case, however, boredom was not the answer – at least not entirely. Students who reported lower interest in the class did tend to have lower exam scores, but this relationship did not account for the relationship between internet use and exam performance.
>In this case, however, boredom was not the answer – at least not entirely. Students who reported lower interest in the class did tend to have lower exam scores, but this relationship did not account for the relationship between internet use and exam performance.
It's like we never left the Middle Ages, when books were expensive and the point of lecturing was to read the book, which was the only book, or one of a few, to students, who'd then copy it down in their notebooks so they'd have at least a copy of what was in the book.
These days, despite the textbook publishers' best efforts, the information is freely available (up until you run into paywalled research papers, but that's at a whole different level from undergrad work, mostly) but the lecture format has barely changed.
These days, despite the textbook publishers' best efforts, the information is freely available (up until you run into paywalled research papers, but that's at a whole different level from undergrad work, mostly) but the lecture format has barely changed.
Copying content (any by extension doing practice like mathematical problems) is scientifically proven to improve recall by orders of magnitude.
There's a reason why people demand you copy stuff down on your own.
There's a reason why people demand you copy stuff down on your own.
> There's a reason why people demand you copy stuff down on your own.
If someone demands from you (instead of just suggesting) to copy stuff down by hand on your own it's probably because they want to fuck with you (or because they are too lazy to do actual teaching). I can see no other explanation. That was especially true during elementary, middle and high school.
If someone demands from you (instead of just suggesting) to copy stuff down by hand on your own it's probably because they want to fuck with you (or because they are too lazy to do actual teaching). I can see no other explanation. That was especially true during elementary, middle and high school.
In some topics, the copying method still works perfectly well. As I've experienced it, the necessary component is time spent mulling over a concept. Sometimes copying is part of that, especially if you need to have facts in your head for later integration and application. Granted, it needs to be mindful (which I do by trying to look up as infrequently as possible, so I'm at least taking in sentences rather than individual words.)
As soon as a lecture brought out slides, I knew my mark was going to be abysmal in that class. Thankfully I recognized that and in my later years promptly dropped those classes.
When I was at uni 2004-2008 There was a weird amalgamation of tech used in the lectures. Some lecturers used power point slides and some used an overheard projector with transparencies.
Most lecturers tended to post their content online (either as a .ppt or as a scanned pdf).
People realised that with all of the notes provided in advance there wasn't a huge incentive for them to be physically present for the lectures and the theatre would get progressively emptier throughout the semester. I admit I skipped more than a few lectures during course of my degree did not feel like I missed anything particularly relevant.
At my university the lectures were supplemented by "tutorials" - wikipedia tells me this is an Australian thing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tutorial) essentially the lectures were 150+ people sitting in a theatre taught by a Professor and the tutorials were usually 10-20 people in a classroom overseen by a postgrad student. We'd spend the tutorial reviewing what was covered in the previous lecture and working through problem sets in a small group. It had the benefit that you would be able to get 1 on 1 attention from the tutor if you needed it. Most lecturers would not even field questions during their lectures whilst the tutors would allow you to email them question etc outside of classroom which was very helpful.
Most lecturers tended to post their content online (either as a .ppt or as a scanned pdf).
People realised that with all of the notes provided in advance there wasn't a huge incentive for them to be physically present for the lectures and the theatre would get progressively emptier throughout the semester. I admit I skipped more than a few lectures during course of my degree did not feel like I missed anything particularly relevant.
At my university the lectures were supplemented by "tutorials" - wikipedia tells me this is an Australian thing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tutorial) essentially the lectures were 150+ people sitting in a theatre taught by a Professor and the tutorials were usually 10-20 people in a classroom overseen by a postgrad student. We'd spend the tutorial reviewing what was covered in the previous lecture and working through problem sets in a small group. It had the benefit that you would be able to get 1 on 1 attention from the tutor if you needed it. Most lecturers would not even field questions during their lectures whilst the tutors would allow you to email them question etc outside of classroom which was very helpful.
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They controlled for that:
>In this case, however, boredom was not the answer – at least not entirely. Students who reported lower interest in the class did tend to have lower exam scores, but this relationship did not account for the relationship between internet use and exam performance.
>In this case, however, boredom was not the answer – at least not entirely. Students who reported lower interest in the class did tend to have lower exam scores, but this relationship did not account for the relationship between internet use and exam performance.
Lectures have worked well enough for years for many people.
both
This reminds me of the running gag in some college movie where the first day all the students show up.
The next cut some students come to class, put a recorder on their desk and leave, then pick it up later.
Eventually there's a scene of the professor lecturing to a bunch of empty desks with just recorders.
And the final scene there's the professor's tape player playing to the student's recorders.
The next cut some students come to class, put a recorder on their desk and leave, then pick it up later.
Eventually there's a scene of the professor lecturing to a bunch of empty desks with just recorders.
And the final scene there's the professor's tape player playing to the student's recorders.
For real though. Many large undergrad lectures kinda run this way. I'll take the video of the lecture (many large universities record all lectures now) and just play it back at ~1.3x speed later. I can rewind, stop, and fast-forward to the stuff I know I need to know. Since the tests/HW are the only thing that matters, why would I not do it this way? It's a better use of all of our time.
A counter argument for the sake of discussion: students in the classroom can add value to the recorded lectures by engaging the professor with questions that ask to clarify, extend, etc. If there are no students left, the students rely fully on the profs ability to monologue. Could be a risk. Could dilute the lecture's potential.
As a professor, I'm increasingly trying to avoid using a computer to lecture. I'm making a lot more use of a whiteboard pen to explain things, backed up by powerpoint slides, video and audio only when I think it adds. The nice thing about using a pen is there isn't a set script - I can digress, or add extra explanation as needed. I do have detailed notes for how I plan to do the lecture, but I very rarely use those notes in lecture. As far as possible, I lecture from memory, which avoids the students thinking I'm regurgitating a script. This means the students feel much more free to ask questions, as it doesn't seem to disturb the "powerpoint show". I find lectures I give this way are much more interactive. I've asked my students which they prefer, and 95% prefer me using a pen. It seems to show in our student feedback too - I'm consistently at or very near the top in our student ranking of lecturers. The one downside is the videos of the lectures are less useful, as pen doesn't work so well on video.
This is how almost all the lectures I attended in the mid 70s (Physics, Exeter Uni.) were done. The one useless lecturer who just read the set book we tried to get fired and when that didn't work just formed a rota and noted the page numbers so that we could just precis the relevant pages at leisure. He also set the exam in the same way and as all the exams were open note we all passed with flying colours.
The other course were more challenging and more interesting.
The other course were more challenging and more interesting.
Good on you! However, most PIs aren't like this. Their preparation is half-assed at best, and even then begrudgingly so. Thanks for taking the time and actually trying to do something. It's funny, in the ivory tower the word 'professor' has changed it's meaning somehow in the last 25 years or less. They think it means something like manager/grant-writer of grad students you get to boss around (and at least at some places, sexually harass with impunity). However, the rest of the world is still on the old definition of teacher/mentor/disseminator-of-knowledge. It's real strange to see these two ideas mix and the PIs come out on top, oddly.
Also, make sure to never ask:"Ok, now does that make sense?" after going through some real crazy math or something. It makes us feel real dumb when you do that and we then can't ask questions about it. Many PIs do that and it ticks me off to no end. It's like they really don't want to teach at all or have us interrupt their flow in any way.
Also, make sure to never ask:"Ok, now does that make sense?" after going through some real crazy math or something. It makes us feel real dumb when you do that and we then can't ask questions about it. Many PIs do that and it ticks me off to no end. It's like they really don't want to teach at all or have us interrupt their flow in any way.
I suspect a lot depends on what is meant by lecture. If it's a 500 person lecture (or conference talk, etc.), questions are mostly a distraction. In fact, at large events, I find that most speakers prefer to defer questions to the end.
In a 25 person class, even if it's nominally a lecture, I'd expect it to be far more interactive.
In a 25 person class, even if it's nominally a lecture, I'd expect it to be far more interactive.
Yeah, at most large US universities, that's not really occurring anymore. Maybe the upper division classes in smaller majors, but most of college is a joke now. TAs really do the teaching, if at all. Lecture is not really something that is valued, even by admin. If you get more grant money, you get to teach less, or so I hear. Project based learning, where you actually build a race-car or a app or make a bronze sculpture, does prove you aren't drooling your way through. Combine that with years of using the same test over and over, and you get rampant 'cheating' issues, but I hesitate to call it cheating when the profs are confronted with it and just send out a 'strongly worded email' and that is it. Look, don't be the person at the orgy counting wedding rings. That's 'college' now. It's little surprise that most Eng. jobs won't take anyone without a MS/MSEE/MSME/etc anymore, they know college is a joke too, they were just there like 10 years ago.
FYI, this gag appears exactly as described in Real Genius. I wonder if there are any other movies that use it?
TVTropes probably has it, but I couldn't find it. Snopes has it as urban legend here http://www.snopes.com/college/admin/recorder.asp
I'm pretty sure an episode of Scrubs did something very similar.
My first year chemistry courses were entirely taught (self paced) on cassette tape
No lectures.
Office hours if needed. Had to listen to tapes in chem building
(jimmy Carter president)
No lectures.
Office hours if needed. Had to listen to tapes in chem building
(jimmy Carter president)
that's kinda what MOOCs are like
Back To School, Rodney Dangerfield.
I think this is a highly personal topic. As a student myself i find a laptop in class is very nice, i can type my notes faster, and organize them better. Most of my professors lectures are scatter brained and i frequently have to go back to previous section and annotate or insert new sections. With a computer i just go back and type, with a pen and paper i have to scribble, or write in the margins. Of course computers can be distractions, but that is the students responsibility, let natural selection take its course and stop hindering my ability to learn how i do best (I am a CS major so computers are >= paper to me). If you cannot do your work with a computer, then don't bring one yourself, dont ban them for everyone.
You might think laptops are as good or better than paper notes, but the research says otherwise. Here is a popular article from Scientific American about this very topic: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-learning-secret...
Tons of journal articles on this are available if you look.
Tons of journal articles on this are available if you look.
Ive tried both, I perform significantly better taking notes on a computer. Dont need a research paper to figure that out for myself.
Some of us also have terrible handwriting, so taking notes by hand is out of the question. Though I will also surmise that they can also be a distraction.
Why is improving your handwriting out of the question?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysgraphia
There's a very specific part of the brain responsible for the movement planning and fine motor control required for writing. Some folks have it underdeveloped, and need to spend an inordinate amount of effort and concentration in order to write. And even then, their writing will often degrade over time as they fatigue.
There's a very specific part of the brain responsible for the movement planning and fine motor control required for writing. Some folks have it underdeveloped, and need to spend an inordinate amount of effort and concentration in order to write. And even then, their writing will often degrade over time as they fatigue.
Oook, but is that the case with the OP or is it an excuse? Handwriting does require a bit of practice (children usually do it for a few years to get good).
It's not an "excuse" because he doesn't have to excuse himself to anyone for his handwriting. He found what works for him.
I can say that in my case my 6th grade teacher started paying close attention and noticed that when I was trying my hardest to be neat I was doing like my peer at their worst. He had the school counselors do some tests which didn't result in anything other that agreement that I have an inability to write neat.
I first head about Dysgraphia 10 right here though - the symptoms a familiar enough for a self-diagnosis, but as all self-diagnosis there might be something else.
I first head about Dysgraphia 10 right here though - the symptoms a familiar enough for a self-diagnosis, but as all self-diagnosis there might be something else.
My teachers noticed it in the 3rd grade. I was able to write cursive, but it took me far longer. The result of this is me using a device called an Alphasmart (they stopped making them a couple of years go), through the rest of my education.
Yes it is.
Another bad handwriting guy here. For me, the answer is "I have better things to do". Learning to cut out distractions on a laptop will serve me better (IMO).
Although in grad school I never used to a digital method of annotating papers and did it by hand anyway.
Although in grad school I never used to a digital method of annotating papers and did it by hand anyway.
Its not an option for everyone. I had a classmate in undergrad who had a medical condition where they could not take notes by hand. They even had a doctor's note saying that they had to have a laptop in class.
True, but Compuguy was not referring to people with medical conditions in my opinion. He is referring to the "many" that don't want make a concentrated effort to improve their handwriting but could if they did.
If a student has a medical condition that makes it so their handwriting is not legible then they probably had the same issue in HS and should be able to navigate College bureaucracy well enough to get the exemption status.
If a student has a medical condition that makes it so their handwriting is not legible then they probably had the same issue in HS and should be able to navigate College bureaucracy well enough to get the exemption status.
I should of mentioned it earlier, but I do have a medical condition, which a previous poster mentioned (Dysgraphia). I also did "navigate" the college bureaucracy and sometimes had to push teachers to allow use of a tablet or laptop, even with an exemption.
Not physically able to use hands != perfectly able to use hands but was failed by their elementary school system and now rationalizes that learning to write legibly is somehow a waste of time ;)
Not to be too personal, 99% of college students (including myself back in the day) are lazy rationalizers in some fashion. In my experience it's not until Junior/Senior year that some majors start squeezing that out.
Not to be too personal, 99% of college students (including myself back in the day) are lazy rationalizers in some fashion. In my experience it's not until Junior/Senior year that some majors start squeezing that out.
On the other hand, I had some number of years of handwriting class in grade school (Palmer script) and handwriting was consistently my lowest grade as I recall. It's never been good in spite of considerable practice--and it's slowly deteriorated to almost illegible today.
Just remembering the amount of excuses and ways we used to rationalize our laziness in college really makes me cringe :P
Most people do grow up tho.
Most people do grow up tho.
I'm in the same situation, my handwriting is illegibly bad, even by myself - the main reason I don't want to improve it is that I just don't use it, haven't for years, it'd be an incredible waste of time and effort. There's no motivating reason to do it except for perhaps some very abstract learning benefit - which hasn't to my knowledge even been proven out in the software engineering or computer science field, where it arguably makes the least sense.
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In 15 years of studies, I have never ever heard anyone complaining about his own handwriting. Even with a handwriting that can be very bad for others, one can always reread 99.9% of what one has written, because it is one's own handwriting and one knows its quirks.
This kind of complaint magically appeared after students got Internet-enabled laptops and were allowed to bring them at school.
That's bullshit of the same level as "I can take faster and better notes with my laptop". No you can't. You can't draw graphs, you can't draw diagrams, you can't draw small maps quickly and properly as you can by hand. You can't either type fancy maths, physics and chemistry formulas as fast and as "aligned" as you can do do it by hand.
"But it is searchable". Wonderful. As if you used to be lost in a 30 pages long course (which has a logical organisation and/or progression) that anyway you have to learn one way or another, by practice or rote memorisation.
There is zero benefit in typing notes vs writing them down. At best, in an unlikely optimistic case, it could be equal.
Laptop in a classroom are used to play, browse the web and social networks; the rest are made-up justifications to be allowed to bring them.
This kind of complaint magically appeared after students got Internet-enabled laptops and were allowed to bring them at school.
That's bullshit of the same level as "I can take faster and better notes with my laptop". No you can't. You can't draw graphs, you can't draw diagrams, you can't draw small maps quickly and properly as you can by hand. You can't either type fancy maths, physics and chemistry formulas as fast and as "aligned" as you can do do it by hand.
"But it is searchable". Wonderful. As if you used to be lost in a 30 pages long course (which has a logical organisation and/or progression) that anyway you have to learn one way or another, by practice or rote memorisation.
There is zero benefit in typing notes vs writing them down. At best, in an unlikely optimistic case, it could be equal.
Laptop in a classroom are used to play, browse the web and social networks; the rest are made-up justifications to be allowed to bring them.
> This kind of complaint magically appeared after students got Internet-enabled laptops and were allowed to bring them at school.
I had the same kind of problem since elementary school, I was first allowed to use a computer during class in uni.
> That's bullshit
Just because it doesn't occur to you it does not mean that it's not true. Just because you started paying attention to it now it does not mean that it wasn't there before either.
> No you can't
Well, you might not be able to but many people can.
> You can't draw graphs, you can't draw diagrams
Sure you can. There are many tools for this job, both text and graphical ones.
> You can't either type fancy maths, physics and chemistry formulas as fast and as "aligned" as you can do do it by hand.
With Latex + Emacs I can type fancy mathematical formulas much faster and much more aligned than when writing them down.
> There is zero benefit in typing notes vs writing them down
Except that writing down notes for me and for many other people is useless, tiresome and distracting.
I had the same kind of problem since elementary school, I was first allowed to use a computer during class in uni.
> That's bullshit
Just because it doesn't occur to you it does not mean that it's not true. Just because you started paying attention to it now it does not mean that it wasn't there before either.
> No you can't
Well, you might not be able to but many people can.
> You can't draw graphs, you can't draw diagrams
Sure you can. There are many tools for this job, both text and graphical ones.
> You can't either type fancy maths, physics and chemistry formulas as fast and as "aligned" as you can do do it by hand.
With Latex + Emacs I can type fancy mathematical formulas much faster and much more aligned than when writing them down.
> There is zero benefit in typing notes vs writing them down
Except that writing down notes for me and for many other people is useless, tiresome and distracting.
It's worth first noting that there are indeed people for whom a laptop would be much, much better, due to some disorders which produce very quick pain or tiredness in the muscles from writing, with handwriting that may be unreadable even the next day. Such people obviously greatly benefit from laptops.
>There is zero benefit in typing notes vs writing them down. At best, in an unlikely optimistic case, it could be equal.
Have you used org-mode? I really like the ability to organise many notes, link them together (like a small personal wiki) and others. Typing is also significantly less fatiguing, at least for my hands, and I suspect at equal or even faster speed, though I have nothing to back that up, I can type at around 110wpm comfortably.
Typing notes also comes in quite handy if the course comes with digital material. You can copy that graph in, you don't have to draw it out. Tablet-laptops (if there's a word for them, I don't know it) let you draw diagrams with ease. It may also benefit to record what the lecturer is saying with the laptop's microphone, though you can do that with a separate device, it's more useful and convenient to have that as embedded media in your notes.
It also means you can do things other than note-taking. If the course requires some amount of memorisation of facts with definite answers, you can use spaced repetition flashcard programs such as Anki, and fill them in during the lecture, or better, copy-and-paste from your typed up lecture notes. This is especially useful for definitions of things.
Whether laptops are used as they could be used is a different matter, and my own lecturers have told me anecdotes of their misusage, though I think it's unwise to stop people who would otherwise use them well from using them. The people who misuse their laptops will find that not paying attention has consequences.
>There is zero benefit in typing notes vs writing them down. At best, in an unlikely optimistic case, it could be equal.
Have you used org-mode? I really like the ability to organise many notes, link them together (like a small personal wiki) and others. Typing is also significantly less fatiguing, at least for my hands, and I suspect at equal or even faster speed, though I have nothing to back that up, I can type at around 110wpm comfortably.
Typing notes also comes in quite handy if the course comes with digital material. You can copy that graph in, you don't have to draw it out. Tablet-laptops (if there's a word for them, I don't know it) let you draw diagrams with ease. It may also benefit to record what the lecturer is saying with the laptop's microphone, though you can do that with a separate device, it's more useful and convenient to have that as embedded media in your notes.
It also means you can do things other than note-taking. If the course requires some amount of memorisation of facts with definite answers, you can use spaced repetition flashcard programs such as Anki, and fill them in during the lecture, or better, copy-and-paste from your typed up lecture notes. This is especially useful for definitions of things.
Whether laptops are used as they could be used is a different matter, and my own lecturers have told me anecdotes of their misusage, though I think it's unwise to stop people who would otherwise use them well from using them. The people who misuse their laptops will find that not paying attention has consequences.
>Laptop in a classroom are used to play, browse the web and social networks; the rest are made-up justifications to be allowed to bring them.
As a side note, if you actually need/want to take notes on an electronic device such a laptop, it doesn't mean that the device MUST have a browser AND be connected to the internet. If there was a word processor ONLY laptop with no browser nor games on it, air-gaped from the internet, THEN it would be just a matter of preferences.
And I would go a bit further on the handwriting (excluded medical conditions) having a decently readable handwriting only costs some time in exercising wanting to better it, and it is a form of respect towards yourself (when you have to re-read your notes) and towards others that may need to read what you write.
Maybe you will manage to live your whole life only writing "electronically" but why risking to be unable to communicate in handwriting?
Once upon a time you couldn't get past first few years of elementary schools unless you had a decent handwriting, no need for it to be "beautiful" or "calligraphic", only readable.
The fact that it may be slower than typing ( and this BTW happens only for exceptionally fast and accurate typists) it's not in itself a bad thing, while you write by hand you somehow need more concentration to avoid mis-spelling as you haven't the equivalent of a backspace (or in some cases a spelling corrector) and this usually helps for memorizing what you are writing while you write it.
As a side note, if you actually need/want to take notes on an electronic device such a laptop, it doesn't mean that the device MUST have a browser AND be connected to the internet. If there was a word processor ONLY laptop with no browser nor games on it, air-gaped from the internet, THEN it would be just a matter of preferences.
And I would go a bit further on the handwriting (excluded medical conditions) having a decently readable handwriting only costs some time in exercising wanting to better it, and it is a form of respect towards yourself (when you have to re-read your notes) and towards others that may need to read what you write.
Maybe you will manage to live your whole life only writing "electronically" but why risking to be unable to communicate in handwriting?
Once upon a time you couldn't get past first few years of elementary schools unless you had a decent handwriting, no need for it to be "beautiful" or "calligraphic", only readable.
The fact that it may be slower than typing ( and this BTW happens only for exceptionally fast and accurate typists) it's not in itself a bad thing, while you write by hand you somehow need more concentration to avoid mis-spelling as you haven't the equivalent of a backspace (or in some cases a spelling corrector) and this usually helps for memorizing what you are writing while you write it.
There was such a product as you described: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaSmart
They stopped making them in 2013.
They stopped making them in 2013.
I guess, you haven't read up about Dysgraphia then. When I was made aware/diagnosed (mid 1990's), we didn't have Internet-enabled lightweight laptops, but Alphasmarts (which are no longer made).
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I went to college just as laptops were starting to become ubiquitous, but I never saw the point of them in class. I still think they're pretty useless for math, engineering, and science classes where you need to draw symbols and diagrams that you can't easily type. Even for topics where you can write prose notes, I always found it more helpful to be able to arrange them spatially in a way that made sense rather than the limited order of a text editor or word processor.
I think devices like the surface pro have shown that we have the technology needed for more advanced io now - we just need proper CAD programs and symbolic math packages that work well with pen/touch input - much along the lines of original Sketchpad[s].
In the same vein, I think "notebooks" of the Jupyter style for R, mathlab or Julia etc - could be a great addition to many classes - allowing interactive exploration etc.
It's an odd time to think computers won't be transformative to learning (also in the classroom) - because we just got useful hardware in affordable packaging.
True, the past decades, computers could probably help better with writing projects - but I know of few places that for example simply let students cooperate on writing up projects with their own wikimedia instance - rather than using crappy dtp/word processors.
On the other hand, I don't think I knew anyone that got top marks on essays in high school who worked only by hand - it's a slow process to work through two-three drafts of a multi-page essay by hand.
[s] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sketchpad
In the same vein, I think "notebooks" of the Jupyter style for R, mathlab or Julia etc - could be a great addition to many classes - allowing interactive exploration etc.
It's an odd time to think computers won't be transformative to learning (also in the classroom) - because we just got useful hardware in affordable packaging.
True, the past decades, computers could probably help better with writing projects - but I know of few places that for example simply let students cooperate on writing up projects with their own wikimedia instance - rather than using crappy dtp/word processors.
On the other hand, I don't think I knew anyone that got top marks on essays in high school who worked only by hand - it's a slow process to work through two-three drafts of a multi-page essay by hand.
[s] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sketchpad
TBH Surface Pro, iPad Pro et al compared to paper is like NTSC vs 4K. The resolution and precision on digital writing surfaces are abysmal compared to paper. I tried taking notes on Surface Pro with OneNote and gave up because it feels like writing with crayons.
While your argument makes sense,
I just want to point out that laptops for maths, engineering and science are not useless if you type sufficiently fast [1] and "master" [2] LaTeX.
And I know of one person who actually does it in chemistry, his notes are stunning and complete (which makes him love to look at them and improve them).
As for myself, I use pandoc (Markdown + LaTeX + a long set of custom commands accumulated during lectures) to take notes of mathematics (and it can get ugly sometimes with matrices, which require me to resort to SAGE generating the good LaTeX instead of me.)
And, the advantage? I can actively listen and participate to proofs while taking complete notes quickly.
As for the spatial problem, I agree that for certain topics, it makes sense, but the cost / quality provided by a laptop was a lot higher, though I take the time to do some sketch on paper and work my drafts on paper because it's a lot faster than on a computer.
Second point regarding spatial organisation: You can use mental maps to build spatial representations, along the way, there should be some tool to build any kind of spatial representation.
tl;dr: It is actually possible to take notes on laptop for subjects like maths, engineering and science thanks to tools like Pandoc and LaTeX, though it's still preferable to use paper for drafts and problem solving or to organise spatially your knowledge.
[1]: depends on your lecturer's speed, in fact.
[2]: mastered for the stuff you have to type (e.g. diagrams, advanced maths, etc…).
I just want to point out that laptops for maths, engineering and science are not useless if you type sufficiently fast [1] and "master" [2] LaTeX.
And I know of one person who actually does it in chemistry, his notes are stunning and complete (which makes him love to look at them and improve them).
As for myself, I use pandoc (Markdown + LaTeX + a long set of custom commands accumulated during lectures) to take notes of mathematics (and it can get ugly sometimes with matrices, which require me to resort to SAGE generating the good LaTeX instead of me.)
And, the advantage? I can actively listen and participate to proofs while taking complete notes quickly.
As for the spatial problem, I agree that for certain topics, it makes sense, but the cost / quality provided by a laptop was a lot higher, though I take the time to do some sketch on paper and work my drafts on paper because it's a lot faster than on a computer.
Second point regarding spatial organisation: You can use mental maps to build spatial representations, along the way, there should be some tool to build any kind of spatial representation.
tl;dr: It is actually possible to take notes on laptop for subjects like maths, engineering and science thanks to tools like Pandoc and LaTeX, though it's still preferable to use paper for drafts and problem solving or to organise spatially your knowledge.
[1]: depends on your lecturer's speed, in fact.
[2]: mastered for the stuff you have to type (e.g. diagrams, advanced maths, etc…).
I went to a state engineering college that provided students with tablet-style laptops so that you could fold the screen down and jot notes+diagrams with a stylus. It was really nice because some of the professors were flexible enough to accept tablet-written homework (one even required it as everybody had the requisite device).
I knew plenty of fellow students that eschewed paper notes during their time there.
I knew plenty of fellow students that eschewed paper notes during their time there.
Out of curiosity, what laptop model and software combo?
Speaking for myself, in college (2008-2012) I used an HP EliteBook 2760p. It was a very solid device and I was able to completely eliminate carrying paper binders/folders by using that machine.
The software I used for handwritten notes was Microsoft OneNote. It was even somewhat successful at translating my scrawl into text behind the scenes in order to make my handwritten notes completely searchable.
The software I used for handwritten notes was Microsoft OneNote. It was even somewhat successful at translating my scrawl into text behind the scenes in order to make my handwritten notes completely searchable.
The school has been purchasing laptops from the Fujitsu Lifebook T series for a few years now. They swapped out old models for each student after 4 years of use.
Back when I attended, most people were on the Fujitsu Lifebook t901 I think, but looking at their IT site now, the latest models the school uses are http://www.fujitsu.com/global/products/computing/pc/tablets/....
I loved those tablets, the stylus and screen digitizer felt top notch back when I used them.
Software-wise, most students used OneNote for note taking/annotating text and a few professors required https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Journal for assignments. Not sure the preferred approach these days as Journal seems dead.
Back when I attended, most people were on the Fujitsu Lifebook t901 I think, but looking at their IT site now, the latest models the school uses are http://www.fujitsu.com/global/products/computing/pc/tablets/....
I loved those tablets, the stylus and screen digitizer felt top notch back when I used them.
Software-wise, most students used OneNote for note taking/annotating text and a few professors required https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Journal for assignments. Not sure the preferred approach these days as Journal seems dead.
> I still think they're pretty useless for math, engineering, and science classes where you need to draw symbols and diagrams that you can't easily type
I use latex for special symbols and some diagrams. I do the rest of the diagrams with some form of painting/vector program or ascii art.
> rather than the limited order of a text editor or word processor
What do you mean by that?
I use latex for special symbols and some diagrams. I do the rest of the diagrams with some form of painting/vector program or ascii art.
> rather than the limited order of a text editor or word processor
What do you mean by that?
This is a summary of an article titled "Logged In and Zoned Out: How Laptop Internet Use Relates to Classroom Learning" published in Psychological Science in 2017; The DOI is 10.1177/0956797616677314 if you want to check out the details.
Abstract: Laptop computers are widely prevalent in university classrooms. Although laptops are a valuable tool, they offer access to a distracting temptation: the Internet. In the study reported here, we assessed the relationship between classroom performance and actual Internet usage for academic and nonacademic purposes. Students who were enrolled in an introductory psychology course logged into a proxy server that monitored their online activity during class. Past research relied on self-report, but the current methodology objectively measured time, frequency, and browsing history of participants’ Internet usage. In addition, we assessed whether intelligence, motivation, and interest in course material could account for the relationship between Internet use and performance. Our results showed that nonacademic Internet use was common among students who brought laptops to class and was inversely related to class performance. This relationship was upheld after we accounted for motivation, interest, and intelligence. Class- related Internet use was not associated with a benefit to classroom performance.
Abstract: Laptop computers are widely prevalent in university classrooms. Although laptops are a valuable tool, they offer access to a distracting temptation: the Internet. In the study reported here, we assessed the relationship between classroom performance and actual Internet usage for academic and nonacademic purposes. Students who were enrolled in an introductory psychology course logged into a proxy server that monitored their online activity during class. Past research relied on self-report, but the current methodology objectively measured time, frequency, and browsing history of participants’ Internet usage. In addition, we assessed whether intelligence, motivation, and interest in course material could account for the relationship between Internet use and performance. Our results showed that nonacademic Internet use was common among students who brought laptops to class and was inversely related to class performance. This relationship was upheld after we accounted for motivation, interest, and intelligence. Class- related Internet use was not associated with a benefit to classroom performance.
> ...Students who were enrolled in an introductory psychology course...
Ugh.
Also, from the paper:
> Five hundred seven students enrolled in an introductory psychology class in fall 2014... Each lecture lasted 1 hr and 50 min with a 10-min break in the middle.
Alternative headline: "500 person intro courses with meat-space lecture periods lasting TWO HOURS are stupid, and everything else is water under the bridge"
edit2: Also from the paper:
> Participants who logged in for less than half of the sessions were excluded from analysis
Why?! You don't think that frequency of use could correlate at all with type of use?! It's like they're willfully introducing unnecessary threats to validity...
And it keeps going like that for the entire paper. I smell experiment design hacking.
Ugh.
Also, from the paper:
> Five hundred seven students enrolled in an introductory psychology class in fall 2014... Each lecture lasted 1 hr and 50 min with a 10-min break in the middle.
Alternative headline: "500 person intro courses with meat-space lecture periods lasting TWO HOURS are stupid, and everything else is water under the bridge"
edit2: Also from the paper:
> Participants who logged in for less than half of the sessions were excluded from analysis
Why?! You don't think that frequency of use could correlate at all with type of use?! It's like they're willfully introducing unnecessary threats to validity...
And it keeps going like that for the entire paper. I smell experiment design hacking.
>And it keeps going like that for the entire paper. I smell experiment design hacking.
This sort of thing is exactly what pops up in my mind as well. I think they just looked at complete set of data, which might have shown that there is low-to-moderate correlation (assuming most people only use laptops when there is a part of course that is completely irrelevant/boring/already known); once they dropped the most significant use-case, all was left is the butt-in-seat users.
Also, I don't know why they never produce figures of a scatter plot for the data they are analyzing. A simple grade vs laptop time (academic, non-academic, total) figure would explain the results so much better than the raw tables. Maybe I'm just used to other kind of articles though.
P.S. There is also a really funny correlation in table 3, showing negative grade influence from playing games, where table 1 has 0 minutes spent for that across the board.
This sort of thing is exactly what pops up in my mind as well. I think they just looked at complete set of data, which might have shown that there is low-to-moderate correlation (assuming most people only use laptops when there is a part of course that is completely irrelevant/boring/already known); once they dropped the most significant use-case, all was left is the butt-in-seat users.
Also, I don't know why they never produce figures of a scatter plot for the data they are analyzing. A simple grade vs laptop time (academic, non-academic, total) figure would explain the results so much better than the raw tables. Maybe I'm just used to other kind of articles though.
P.S. There is also a really funny correlation in table 3, showing negative grade influence from playing games, where table 1 has 0 minutes spent for that across the board.
I believe that we may know a lot about how students at top western universities that take introductory psychology courses think and behave. As for the rest of us, who knows.
This is one of the classes I CLEPed while in highschool. I don't think I spent more than a couple of hours actually studying for it.
"Thus, there seems to be little upside to laptop use in class, while there is clearly a downside."
Thanks to bs articles like this that try to over generalize their results, I was unsure if I "needed" a laptop when returning to school.
Got a Surface Book and here's what I've experienced over the last 2 semesters. - Going paperless, I'm more organized than ever. I just need to make sure I bring my surface with me wherever I go and I'm good.
- Record lectures, tutorials, office hours, etc. Although I still take notes to keep myself focused, I can go back and review things with 100% accuracy thanks to this.
- Being at 2 places at once. ie: Make last minute changes before submitting an assignment for class A or attend review lecture to prepare for next week's quiz in class B? I can leave the surface in class B to record the lecture while I finish up the assignment for class A.
If you can't control yourself from browsing the internet during a lecture then the problem is not with your laptop...
Thanks to bs articles like this that try to over generalize their results, I was unsure if I "needed" a laptop when returning to school.
Got a Surface Book and here's what I've experienced over the last 2 semesters. - Going paperless, I'm more organized than ever. I just need to make sure I bring my surface with me wherever I go and I'm good.
- Record lectures, tutorials, office hours, etc. Although I still take notes to keep myself focused, I can go back and review things with 100% accuracy thanks to this.
- Being at 2 places at once. ie: Make last minute changes before submitting an assignment for class A or attend review lecture to prepare for next week's quiz in class B? I can leave the surface in class B to record the lecture while I finish up the assignment for class A.
If you can't control yourself from browsing the internet during a lecture then the problem is not with your laptop...
That's a sensible and practical use of laptop that I wish I had back when I was at Uni (nobody had a laptop in the 90s). I wonder how many students today make efficient use of their computers like this? I guess it's a mix of good and bad.
It occurs to me that educating younger students about "how to use a computer" for organising and the like, would be essential in early education before bad habits set in.
It occurs to me that educating younger students about "how to use a computer" for organising and the like, would be essential in early education before bad habits set in.
Why are lectures still being conducted in the classroom? Students shouldn't just be sitting there copying what the teacher writes on the board anyway. They should be having discussions, working together or independently on practice problems, teaching each other the material, or just doing anything that's actually engaging. Lecturing should be done at home via YouTube.
Please excuse me for relating an experience, but it's relevant. To get into my IT grad program I had to take a few undergrad courses (my degree is in music, and I didn't have all of the pre-reqs). One course was Intro to Computer Science, which unfortunately had to be taught in the computer lab used for the programming courses. It was sad to see how undisciplined the students were. Barely anyone paid attention to the lectures as they googled the most random shit (one kid spent a whole lecture searching through images of vegetables). The final exam was open-book. I feel a little guilty, but I enjoyed seeing most of the students nervously flip through the chapters the whole time, while it took me 25 minutes to finish (the questions were nearly identical to those from previous exams).
I had a laptop and left it home most of the time. And just stuck with taking notes with a pen and sitting upfront.
I took lots notes. Some people claim it's pointless and distracts from learning but for me the act of taking notes is what helped solidify the concepts a better. Heck due to my horrible handwriting I couldn't even read some of the notes later. But it was still worth it. Typing them out just wasn't the same.
I took lots notes. Some people claim it's pointless and distracts from learning but for me the act of taking notes is what helped solidify the concepts a better. Heck due to my horrible handwriting I couldn't even read some of the notes later. But it was still worth it. Typing them out just wasn't the same.
My experience from college is pretty much the same - as soon as I stopped bringing laptop to courses and started using a paper notebook, my recall improved significantlly. If you don't have a distraction device on-hand, it's significantly harder to get distracted as soon as a lecture gets a bit more boring and doing notes forces you to pay attention to those boring bits as well.
As I get older, I find that physical notes help me more and more. I write in fairly neat cursive, using a fountain pen, and make it a point to never write down the words I'm hearing unless they're an important quote or something. Doing this helps me process the information while it's still fresh in my mind, which in turn leads to more thorough understanding.
> make it a point to never write down the words I'm hearing unless they're an important quote or something
That's the key I think! The forced paraphrasing (while summarizing) helps process the information better.
That's the key I think! The forced paraphrasing (while summarizing) helps process the information better.
This is the same as laptops not being allowed in meetings. A company where it's common for meeting participants to "take notes" on a laptop is dysfunctional. Laptops need to be banned in meetings (and smartphones in meetings and lectures).
Also re: other comments: A video lecture is to a physical lecture what a conference call is to a proper meeting. A professor rambling for 3h is still miles better than watching the same thing on YouTube. The same holds for tv versus watching a film on a movie screen.
Zero distractions and complete immersion. Maybe VR will allow it some day.
Also re: other comments: A video lecture is to a physical lecture what a conference call is to a proper meeting. A professor rambling for 3h is still miles better than watching the same thing on YouTube. The same holds for tv versus watching a film on a movie screen.
Zero distractions and complete immersion. Maybe VR will allow it some day.
Shocker. I remember being part of Clemson's laptop pilot program in 1998. If you were ever presenting you basically had to ask everyone to close their laptops or their eyes would never even look up.
I see this a lot in the workplace as well.
I ban laptops from meetings I run. We're here to meet, present information, receive information, share information, make arguments, come to conclusions: we're not in a meeting in order to futz about tweaking our personal blogs.
I also like 15-minute meetings or less. Other folks seem fine with multi-hour meetings where everyone is goofing off on his laptop.
I also like 15-minute meetings or less. Other folks seem fine with multi-hour meetings where everyone is goofing off on his laptop.
Even without laptops I see this in the workplace. In a meeting, if there is a PowerPoint presentation with words on it, people instinctively look at the bright and shiny screen. That's why I recommend throwing a few black slides in your presentation when you want people to focus back on the presenter.
Presentation remotes like those from Logitech have a button to do just that.
I think its a double edge sword; not just paper > laptop or laptop > paper. As many people have already stated, its about engagement. Since coming back for my PhD, I've subscribed to the pencil/paper approach as a simple show of respect to the instructor. Despite what we think, professors are human and flawed, and being in their shoes, it can be disheartening to not be able to feed off your audience.
That being said, you can't control them; however, I like to look at different performance styles. What makes someone binge watch Netflix episodes but want to nod off during a lecture. Sure, one has less cognitive load, but replace Netflix binge with anything. People are willing to engage, as long as the medium is engaging (this doesn't mean easy or funny, simply engaging).
[Purely anecdotal opinion based discussion] This is one of the reasons I think flipping the classroom does work; they can't tune out. But, if its purely them doing work, what's your purpose there? To babysit? There needs to be a happy median between work and lecture.
I like to look at the class time in an episodic structure. Pick a show and you'll notice there's a pattern to how the shows work. By maintaining a consistency in the classroom, the students know what to expect.
To tie it back to the article, the laptop is a great tool to use when you need them to do something on the computer. However, they should be looking at you, and you should be drawing their attention. Otherwise, you're just reading your PowerPoint slides.
That being said, you can't control them; however, I like to look at different performance styles. What makes someone binge watch Netflix episodes but want to nod off during a lecture. Sure, one has less cognitive load, but replace Netflix binge with anything. People are willing to engage, as long as the medium is engaging (this doesn't mean easy or funny, simply engaging).
[Purely anecdotal opinion based discussion] This is one of the reasons I think flipping the classroom does work; they can't tune out. But, if its purely them doing work, what's your purpose there? To babysit? There needs to be a happy median between work and lecture.
I like to look at the class time in an episodic structure. Pick a show and you'll notice there's a pattern to how the shows work. By maintaining a consistency in the classroom, the students know what to expect.
To tie it back to the article, the laptop is a great tool to use when you need them to do something on the computer. However, they should be looking at you, and you should be drawing their attention. Otherwise, you're just reading your PowerPoint slides.
>That being said, you can't control them; however, I like to look at different performance styles. What makes someone binge watch Netflix episodes but want to nod off during a lecture. Sure, one has less cognitive load, but replace Netflix binge with anything.
I personally find that if the air quality is not perfect for my needs, I tend to go drowsy really fast. Since I hate the artificially dry air, in any setting where there is either excessive heating in the winter, strong AC in the summer or too many people in a classroom where you get excessive CO2 concentrations, the attention span plummets. A 15 min break every hour helps, where you can get outside for at least 5 minutes and get some fresh air. Also, rooms that have windows that actually open are a lifesaver.
I personally find that if the air quality is not perfect for my needs, I tend to go drowsy really fast. Since I hate the artificially dry air, in any setting where there is either excessive heating in the winter, strong AC in the summer or too many people in a classroom where you get excessive CO2 concentrations, the attention span plummets. A 15 min break every hour helps, where you can get outside for at least 5 minutes and get some fresh air. Also, rooms that have windows that actually open are a lifesaver.
Not to be a jerk, but that's a discipline matter - you need to do what you need to do to maintain attention. Too much heating in my car in the winter and I get drowsy as well; and that's a situation where I need to be VERY engaged! If I fall asleep at the wheel, I can't blame it on the car, that was my fault. I do try to practice mindfulness, so I never let myself fall into "auto-pilot".
Breaks help and are definitely needed, the classes I've taught have been anywhere from 1 to 2 hours. I'd typically do a 1 hour block, 10 minutes and finish (or 50 min then break depending on room vibe and natural progression of material).
However, I cannot control things like AC or number of people. AC in a large-scale building is an unsolved problem as-is, I have no control over every person's thermal comfort level (plus everyone's different). In that situation, I view it more internally as "What can I do to stay engaged?" rather than "What can they do to keep me engaged?"
With more students enrolling, all you can do is offer ways to let them receive the material outside the prescribed time. No one has a photographic memory and can remember literally everything - that's why I make Khan Academy-style videos of my lectures.
I'd love to mirror a martial art class, where I can rely on more experienced students to help others, as they may be able to offer another viewpoint I skipped over (since, I already understand the material, they just figured it out). However, in a college setting, it's a harder thing to do, given its hard to convince TAs attend the class again and act as an assistant.
Repetition is a very important tool for learning, but current Western education philosophy dislikes it. I could go on, but I'm starting to ramble on a tangent...
Breaks help and are definitely needed, the classes I've taught have been anywhere from 1 to 2 hours. I'd typically do a 1 hour block, 10 minutes and finish (or 50 min then break depending on room vibe and natural progression of material).
However, I cannot control things like AC or number of people. AC in a large-scale building is an unsolved problem as-is, I have no control over every person's thermal comfort level (plus everyone's different). In that situation, I view it more internally as "What can I do to stay engaged?" rather than "What can they do to keep me engaged?"
With more students enrolling, all you can do is offer ways to let them receive the material outside the prescribed time. No one has a photographic memory and can remember literally everything - that's why I make Khan Academy-style videos of my lectures.
I'd love to mirror a martial art class, where I can rely on more experienced students to help others, as they may be able to offer another viewpoint I skipped over (since, I already understand the material, they just figured it out). However, in a college setting, it's a harder thing to do, given its hard to convince TAs attend the class again and act as an assistant.
Repetition is a very important tool for learning, but current Western education philosophy dislikes it. I could go on, but I'm starting to ramble on a tangent...
I'd be more impressed if they also did the same study with notepads and doodles and daydreams, and compared the numbers.
I have a feeling that people who aren't paying attention weren't going to anyhow.
However, I'd also guess that at least some people use the computer to look up additional information instead of stopping the class and asking, which helps everyone involved.
I have a feeling that people who aren't paying attention weren't going to anyhow.
However, I'd also guess that at least some people use the computer to look up additional information instead of stopping the class and asking, which helps everyone involved.
> However, I'd also guess that at least some people use the computer to look up additional information instead of stopping the class and asking, which helps everyone involved.
No it doesn't. Practically the only point of lectures is so students can ask questions. Otherwise just read the material and don't go. Moreover there are probably others in the class too shy to ask the same question, but at worst it reinforces everyone else's learning.
No it doesn't. Practically the only point of lectures is so students can ask questions. Otherwise just read the material and don't go. Moreover there are probably others in the class too shy to ask the same question, but at worst it reinforces everyone else's learning.
I hated when people asked not needed questions in lecture for over hundred people. At least attempt to answer it yourself, don't slow other 99 people down.
> I'd also guess that at least some people use the computer to look up additional information instead of stopping the class and asking, which helps everyone involved.
Are you sure about that? Intuitively, wouldn't it be the opposite? Asking questions results in the teacher giving an answer that can benefit the whole class, whereas if you just look something up yourself you're the only one who benefits from that additional piece of information.
Are you sure about that? Intuitively, wouldn't it be the opposite? Asking questions results in the teacher giving an answer that can benefit the whole class, whereas if you just look something up yourself you're the only one who benefits from that additional piece of information.
While I won't deny that it's possible the question might help multiple people, it's more likely that if it's simple enough to look up online, it's better for everyone to do their own research.
Lectures still serve to help for more difficult questions, and the time is better spent on them instead.
Lectures still serve to help for more difficult questions, and the time is better spent on them instead.
But its easy to see how having a computer can make someone intending to pay attention be distracted and miss critical information. A distracted mind is not going to create connections to understand the material as a whole, but rather will simply grab bits and pieces as their concentration is split.
It makes sense that during a lecture, simple transcription (associated with typing) yields worse results than cognition (associated with writing). So pardon my ignorance (long out of the formal student loop):
Are students taught how to take notes effectively (with laptops) early in their academic lives? Before we throw laptops out of classrooms, could we be improving the situation by putting students through a "How To Take Notes" course, with emphasis on effective laptopping?
It's akin to "how to listen to music" and "how to read a book" courses -- much to be gained IMO.
Are students taught how to take notes effectively (with laptops) early in their academic lives? Before we throw laptops out of classrooms, could we be improving the situation by putting students through a "How To Take Notes" course, with emphasis on effective laptopping?
It's akin to "how to listen to music" and "how to read a book" courses -- much to be gained IMO.
My high school did the one laptop loan out thing (later got sued for it) and I can tell you it was useless as a learning tool. At least in the way intended. I learned quite a bit mainly about navigating around the blocks and rules they put in place. In high school my friends and I ran our own image board, learned about reverse proxying via meebo repeater, hosted our own domains to dodge filtering, and much much more. As far as what I used them for in class... if I needed to take notes I was there with note book and pen. If I didn't I used the laptop to do homework for other classes while in class. I had a reputation among my teachers for handing in assignments the day they were assigned.
In college I slid into the pattern they saw here. I started spending more time on social media, paying less attention in class, slacking on my assignments. As my burnout increased the actual class times became less a thing I learned from and more just something I was required to sit in. One of my college classes literally just required me to show up. It was a was one of the few electives in the college for a large university. The students were frustrated they had to be there, and the teacher was tired of teaching to students who just didn't care.
Overall I left college burnt out and pissed at the whole experience. I went in wanting to learn it just didn't work out.
In college I slid into the pattern they saw here. I started spending more time on social media, paying less attention in class, slacking on my assignments. As my burnout increased the actual class times became less a thing I learned from and more just something I was required to sit in. One of my college classes literally just required me to show up. It was a was one of the few electives in the college for a large university. The students were frustrated they had to be there, and the teacher was tired of teaching to students who just didn't care.
Overall I left college burnt out and pissed at the whole experience. I went in wanting to learn it just didn't work out.
I find that having my laptop out is great for my learning, even during lectures. If somethings not clear or I want more context, I can quickly look up some information without interrupting the teacher. Also, paper notes don't travel well. If everything is on my laptop and backed up online, I know that if I have my laptop, I can study anything I want. Even if I don't have my laptop, I could use another computer to access my notes and documents. This is a HUGE benefit.
>students spent less than 5 minutes on average using the internet for class-related purposes (e.g., accessing the syllabus, reviewing course-related slides or supplemental materials, searching for content related to the lecture)
I wonder if that could be skewed, because it only takes one request to pull up a course syllabus, but if I have Facebook Messenger open in another tab, it could be receiving updates periodically, leading to more time recorded in this experiment.
I wonder if that could be skewed, because it only takes one request to pull up a course syllabus, but if I have Facebook Messenger open in another tab, it could be receiving updates periodically, leading to more time recorded in this experiment.
Just putting in my 2c that as a senior in dual BS and a minor, technology has allowed me to be more successful than paper ever will. I can get more notes written, can draw (I've used a tablet from day one, upgraded to an SP4 recently), import everything to keep it all organized, etc. These arguments about tech vs. paper are the same about learning styles. People are different, and what works for them will be different. Professors should allow any tools that are effective for some to be used, as long as a student is not abusing the privilege by distracting/harming other's learning. I've let my mind wander (by means of browsing facebook or some other distraction) in maybe 10 lectures max over the last 3 years of school. The rest of the time, I had OneNote open and was fully engaged. When students aren't engaged, they will find distraction be it on paper or tech. STOP TELLING ME THAT A COMPUTER WILL LOWER MY GRADES. I have a 3.84 and rising, and I refuse to change what makes me successful.
I'll give you no laptops in the class if you give me no standardized testing and only four 15-20 minute lectures per day and let the kids work on projects the rest of the time as a way to prove their learning and experiences in a more tangible way.
Trying to fix the problem by applying only patches, as us technically inclined would say, always leads to horribly unreliable and broken systems.
Trying to fix the problem by applying only patches, as us technically inclined would say, always leads to horribly unreliable and broken systems.
> In contrast with their heavy nonacademic internet use, students spent less than 5 minutes on average using the internet for class-related purposes
This is a potential methodological flaw. It takes me 5 minutes to log onto my university's VLE and download the course materials. I then read them offline. Likewise, taking notes in class happens offline.
Internet use does not reflect computer use.
This is a potential methodological flaw. It takes me 5 minutes to log onto my university's VLE and download the course materials. I then read them offline. Likewise, taking notes in class happens offline.
Internet use does not reflect computer use.
There's another study showing that students around you with laptops harm your ability to concentrate, even if you're not on a laptop yourself. This is in my opinion a stronger argument against laptops, because it harms those not privileged enough to have a laptop. (not enough time to find study but you can find it if you search!)
I have had lectures where I have had a laptop/iPad/phone and ones where I’ve not had any. i did get distracted, but I found that if I didn’t have say Twitter I’d get distracted for longer. With Twitter I’d catch up on my news feed and then a few minutes later be back to concentrating. Without it I’d end up day dreaming and losing focus for 10-20 minutes.
The biggest problem isn’t distractions, or computers and social media. It’s that hour long lectures are an awful method of transferring information. In my first year we had small groups of ~8 people and a student from 3rd/4th year and we’d go through problems from the maths and programming lectures. I learnt much more in these.
Honestly learning would be much more improved if lectures were condensed into half an hour YouTube videos you can pause, speed up and rewind. Then have smaller groups in which you can interact with the lecturers/assistants.
The biggest problem isn’t distractions, or computers and social media. It’s that hour long lectures are an awful method of transferring information. In my first year we had small groups of ~8 people and a student from 3rd/4th year and we’d go through problems from the maths and programming lectures. I learnt much more in these.
Honestly learning would be much more improved if lectures were condensed into half an hour YouTube videos you can pause, speed up and rewind. Then have smaller groups in which you can interact with the lecturers/assistants.
instructors are also better off without computers in the classroom. lecture has been reduced to staring at a projector while each and every students eyes roll to the back of their skull
I think there is a mentality shift that may come with digitizing learning which might help here.
The discussion on a topic like this can go in two ways. (1) Is to talk about how a laptop can help if students use it to xyz and avoid cba. It's up to the student. Bring a horse to water...(2) The second way you can look at this is to compare outomes, statistacally or quasi-statistically. IE, If laptops are banned we predict an N% increase in Z, where Z is (hopefully) a good proxy for learning or enjoyment or something else we want. IE, think about improving a college course the same way we think about optimizing a dating site.
On a MOOC, the second mentality will tend to dominate. Both have downsides, especially when applied blindly (which tends to happen). In any case, new thinking tends to help.
The discussion on a topic like this can go in two ways. (1) Is to talk about how a laptop can help if students use it to xyz and avoid cba. It's up to the student. Bring a horse to water...(2) The second way you can look at this is to compare outomes, statistacally or quasi-statistically. IE, If laptops are banned we predict an N% increase in Z, where Z is (hopefully) a good proxy for learning or enjoyment or something else we want. IE, think about improving a college course the same way we think about optimizing a dating site.
On a MOOC, the second mentality will tend to dominate. Both have downsides, especially when applied blindly (which tends to happen). In any case, new thinking tends to help.
Any research that takes students as an homogenic group is flawed. People can be (more or less) in about one of the 7 different types of learning styles https://www.learning-styles-online.com/overview/.
So making claims like "doing X works better than Y" is meaningless without pointing to a specific learning style.
That's why you hear people defending writing to paper, while others prefer just hearing the lectures or others have better performance while discussing with peers (and some hate all of the other interactions and can perform better by isolating and studying on your own... which is probably the one who will benefit the most of having a laptop available).
So making claims like "doing X works better than Y" is meaningless without pointing to a specific learning style.
That's why you hear people defending writing to paper, while others prefer just hearing the lectures or others have better performance while discussing with peers (and some hate all of the other interactions and can perform better by isolating and studying on your own... which is probably the one who will benefit the most of having a laptop available).
Learning styles are have been debunked. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_misconceptions#...
debunked is a hard word for "hey, lack of peer review":
"... Coffield's team found that none of the most popular learning style theories had been adequately validated through independent research." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_styles
sounds more like lack of funding than pseudoscience.
"... Coffield's team found that none of the most popular learning style theories had been adequately validated through independent research." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_styles
sounds more like lack of funding than pseudoscience.
During indoor recess at my kids school, kids don't eat their lunch and just throw it away because of the chromebooks. There are only have a few computers and they are first come first serve. Kids would rather go without lunch to be able to play on the internet for 20 minutes.
Paying attention requires work, we need to purposefully use tools that are also distractions.
I definitely feel my attentiveness and focus dropped dramatically after computers were introduced into my work life. It's a shame that computers provide such a thin line between work and entertainment.
You can make that line thicker. You can create a new user on your computer specifically for work, with a restricted environment. You could use VMs or dualboot or something.
Personally, I'm very happy that we have devices that are capable of doing so many things.
Personally, I'm very happy that we have devices that are capable of doing so many things.
Personally I am considering buying a device to attach to my plug socket for the router. It shall have a crude timer to switch off the electricity.
I think most solutions to the problem are far too complex and this shall suit my needs just fine.
I think most solutions to the problem are far too complex and this shall suit my needs just fine.
You can but you won't as long as it is possible to bypass the trick, because you are inevitably attracted (not to say addicted) to the online web content and interactions and you'll quickly switch back to it.
I see that as a problem with the person viewing the content, not the device that enables them.
There are technological tools to help you. There are psychological tools to help you. You can call upon your friends and family for help.
But for gods' sake, don't blame the computer. That's not going to help anyone.
There are technological tools to help you. There are psychological tools to help you. You can call upon your friends and family for help.
But for gods' sake, don't blame the computer. That's not going to help anyone.
This is a fair position, but we shouldn't forget that companies have poured billions of dollars into making these "tools" as addictive as possible, because that's ultimately how they make their money. See [1] and [2] for more.
[1] - Addiction by Design (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Addiction-Design-Machine-Gambling-V...)
[2] - Chomsky on Advertising (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CFwSQiTu3I&t=186s)
[1] - Addiction by Design (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Addiction-Design-Machine-Gambling-V...)
[2] - Chomsky on Advertising (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CFwSQiTu3I&t=186s)
I like having a laptop at uni just because I can program when the lectures are boring, I find the material is too easy in UK universities in CS at least, dunno about other courses or countries, but the amount of effort you need to get good marks along with the amount you're paying is a bit silly, and mostly you'll learn more by yourself...
That said, if you're in a programming class, having a laptop to follow along and try out the concepts is really handy, when we were in an C++/ASM class, seeing the different ASM GCC/G++ and Microsoft's C++ compiler spat out was quite interesting.
That said, if you're in a programming class, having a laptop to follow along and try out the concepts is really handy, when we were in an C++/ASM class, seeing the different ASM GCC/G++ and Microsoft's C++ compiler spat out was quite interesting.
If its too simple and boring for you, why don't you leave?
I love how any education-related topic brings out the armchair-pedagogist out from the woodworks. Of course a big aspect there is that everyone has encountered some amount of education, and especially both courses they enjoyed and disliked. And there is of course the "think of the children" aspect.
To avoid making purely meta comment, in my opinion the ship has already sailed; we are going to have computers in classrooms for better or worse. So the big question is how can we make the best use of that situation.
To avoid making purely meta comment, in my opinion the ship has already sailed; we are going to have computers in classrooms for better or worse. So the big question is how can we make the best use of that situation.
I noticed that the article is speaking from a university perspective. I work in the high school realm, where teachers have more ability to reprimand students not on task. That seems to help students use computers more effectively, but at the same time it requires some effort on the part of the instructor.
I'd argue that students are better off without a classroom as long as they have a laptop (and internet, but that is often also better at home/cafe than in the classroom).
When I was in College I would take notes using a notebook and pad and paper. I audited some classes with my laptop using latex but most of the time I used a notebook. Also, sometimes I would just go to class without a notebook and get the information that way. It also helped that I didn't have a smartphone with Cellular data half of the time I was in school.
> First, participants spent almost 40 minutes out of every 100-minute class period using the internet for nonacademic purposes
I think that I'd be one of them; in the absence of a laptop, I'd spend that time daydreaming. How many people can really concentrate through a 100 minute nonstop lecture about differential geometry or the decline of the Majapahit empire?
I think that I'd be one of them; in the absence of a laptop, I'd spend that time daydreaming. How many people can really concentrate through a 100 minute nonstop lecture about differential geometry or the decline of the Majapahit empire?
It sounds like what students need are better teachers. I haven't been to school in a while but I had plenty of classes that were more interesting than surfing YouTube; and some that weren't.
The same is true for meetings at work. In a good session, people are using their laptops to look up contributing information. In a bad one... well... you know.
The same is true for meetings at work. In a good session, people are using their laptops to look up contributing information. In a bad one... well... you know.
Well it depends on what you do in the classroom, when class is mandatory but you are not able to learn this way (by listening to a teacher), having a laptop can let you do other things.
And then use your time efficiently, like doing some administrative work, send email, coding ...
Some students are of course better with a laptop in the classroom
Some students are of course better with a laptop in the classroom
I find taking paper notes and then reorganizing on the computer works best. The repetition helps memorization.
Students are better off with instructors who don't bore students into bringing out their laptops.
Could it be that the intermittent requests to servers by running apps, say Facebook Messenger or WhatsApp, be tracked as social media use? Because they all use HTTPS I don't see how the researchers distinguished between idle traffic vs sending a message.
In what universe would it be a good idea for students use laptops in class?
Use of digital devices should be limited because the very use of digital devices separates us from what is going on around us. Students should listen and take notes (in a notebook) as necessary.
Use of digital devices should be limited because the very use of digital devices separates us from what is going on around us. Students should listen and take notes (in a notebook) as necessary.
Politicians are also better off without a laptop during legislative sessions [0].
[0] http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/solitaire.asp
[0] http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/solitaire.asp
Internet access, especially to Wikipedia, did wonders for me whenever the lecture turned to something I was already familiar with. That alone kept me from getting distracted and frustrated as I would in classes whose professors prohibited laptop use.
Even better, just remove the surrounding classroom of the laptop. Now we can learn anything anywhere. Having to go to take a class were a professor recites something is ridiculous.
If students thing the class is boring enough, they'll watch youtube whether on the laptop or on their mobile is no really important.
I feel like the conclusion is a bit off base: that students lack the self control to restrict the use of laptops laptops to class-related activities is somehow a sign that the problem is the laptop and not the students? I think it's very possible that younger generations have big issues with self-control and instant gratification. But I think it's wrong to think that laptops are the faulty party.
Riiight, because teenagers and young adults are so known for their long-term planning skills and self-control.
We're not animals, we don't get born with instincts. This is why humans require education and upbringing to teach. And yes, this (gasp!) sometimes means you need to make a non-adult person to do something against their first whim.
We're not animals, we don't get born with instincts. This is why humans require education and upbringing to teach. And yes, this (gasp!) sometimes means you need to make a non-adult person to do something against their first whim.
To be pedantic, we do have instincts as humans and common scientific consensus is that we are animals as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_reflexes (note that instinct and reflex are essentially the same thing in biology)
I don't disagree except for the fact that college students are supposed to be at least semi-adults (though perhaps young and silly ones) and getting through a 50 minute class without giving in to digital temptations is really something that people ought to be capable of well before college.
In fact, it's probably helpful for them to practice that before they have to on the job.
Yeah, kids these days have self control problems. Somehow human nature has been fundamentally altered between the previous generation and this one. It has nothing to do with external variables such as the creeping omnipresence of distraction machines like laptops.
I don't think I ever implied any changes in human nature.
And I don't disagree that there's a degree of difference between hiding a comic book behind a textbook and having a machine that can likely grant instant access to the majority of comics, movies, games, etc., known to humankind, not to mentions texting, chatting, snapchats, social media, etc.
But I think it's ludicrous to think someone's ready for college if they don't have the self control to not give in to that temptation for a 50 minute lecture.
It's not the laptop that created uncommitted just-show-up-ism and incessant digital nothing-chatter or the thoughtless and blasé acceptance of app-based magic voodoo without thought towards its implications.
There's a much larger and more omnipresent failure at play. Deciding not to put games on your phone shouldn't be an amazing and praiseworthy anomaly.
Human beings don't lack for volition when sufficiently aware of it.
And I don't disagree that there's a degree of difference between hiding a comic book behind a textbook and having a machine that can likely grant instant access to the majority of comics, movies, games, etc., known to humankind, not to mentions texting, chatting, snapchats, social media, etc.
But I think it's ludicrous to think someone's ready for college if they don't have the self control to not give in to that temptation for a 50 minute lecture.
It's not the laptop that created uncommitted just-show-up-ism and incessant digital nothing-chatter or the thoughtless and blasé acceptance of app-based magic voodoo without thought towards its implications.
There's a much larger and more omnipresent failure at play. Deciding not to put games on your phone shouldn't be an amazing and praiseworthy anomaly.
Human beings don't lack for volition when sufficiently aware of it.
I've always find the idea of taking a laptop to a lecture pretty rude. I'm there to give the person teaching my full attention, not stare at a laptop screen. So personally I never use them in any type of lecturing / teaching environment simply as a mark of respect.
"Duh" - anyone who's ever been in a class with a laptop.
Students need a GUI-less computer like a minimalist linux distro.
Pen and papers are the best. Also chromebooks are pretty cool
Students are best of with the least amount of distractions
We really need to begin ditching most studies. We have the ability now to collect vast amount of data and use that to make conclusions based on millions of endpoints, not just 10, 100 or 1000 pieces of information.
informed consent for scientific research is very specific and very important. It's history is somewhat intersting, but goes back to the Geneva conventions in the aftermath of WW2 and the Axis efforts on human experimentation: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2328798/
Maybe it would be helpful if our operating systems were optimised for working and learning rather than to selling us crap and mining our data.
There are many OSes that don't do that.
If you keep your laptop open during class, you're not just distracting yourself, you're distracting everyone behind you (that's how human attention works - if you see a bright display with moving things, your attention is drawn towards it), and that's not right. That's why at my uni, there was an unspoken (de-facto) policy that if you keep your laptop open during lectures, you're sitting in the backrows, especially if you play games or do stuff like that. It worked great - I was always in the front row with pen & paper.
However, a laptop is very useful to get work done during breaks or labs when you're actually supposed to use it.
However, a laptop is very useful to get work done during breaks or labs when you're actually supposed to use it.
They should try this study again, but with laptops heavily locked down. Disable just about everything that isn't productive including a strict web filter. I am willing to bet the results would be much better for the kids with laptops. Of course if you let them have free reign they are going to be more interested in entertainment than productivity.
This is why I like to program in front of a whiteboard rather than in front of my computer: to be more productive.
The schools are so messed up in the US. Best to just educate children yourself as best you can. As for college kids, best to travel abroad.
> As for college kids, best to travel abroad.
15 of the top 20 universities in the world are in the US.
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankin...
15 of the top 20 universities in the world are in the US.
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankin...
It's too bad the US is a giant cesspool that I wouldn't recommend anybody travel to, let alone live in.
As claimed by US publication using their own US biases for ranking :)
It's a British publication.
Choose any other well-regarded ranking and you'll get similar results.
Choose any other well-regarded ranking and you'll get similar results.
E.g. The Shanghai AWRU index 2015 has 15 US schools in the top 20.
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/student/news/shanghai-r...
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/student/news/shanghai-r...
If kids fail to learn social skills and how to deal with society, they will pay a steep price once they reach adulthood.
So you're saying raising stupid, uneducated kids that have learned to be bullied or be bullies, are better off than smart, educated, properly socialized children?
You're part of the problem.
You're part of the problem.
That's not at all what I am saying and you know it. It's also a gross misrepresentation of both home-schooling and standard school life.
Is that so? How many messed up home schooled kids do you know then?
microcolonel(2)
Disengaged and uninterested students will find a distraction; yes, perhaps a laptop makes it easier but my education in distraction seeking during middle school, well before laptops were even close to schools, shows that the lack of a computer in front of me was no obstacle to locating something more interesting to put my attention to.
The real solution is to engage students so they don't feel the urge to get distracted in the first place. Then you could give them completely unfiltered Internet and they would still be learning (perhaps even faster, using additional resources.) You can't substitute an urge to learn, no matter if you strap them to the chairs and pin their eyeballs open with their individual fingers strapped down, it won't do anything. It just makes school less interesting, less fun, and less appealing, which makes learning by extension less fun, less appealing, and less interesting.
The real solution is to engage students so they don't feel the urge to get distracted in the first place. Then you could give them completely unfiltered Internet and they would still be learning (perhaps even faster, using additional resources.) You can't substitute an urge to learn, no matter if you strap them to the chairs and pin their eyeballs open with their individual fingers strapped down, it won't do anything. It just makes school less interesting, less fun, and less appealing, which makes learning by extension less fun, less appealing, and less interesting.
I found my laptop to be very beneficial in my classroom learning during college, but only when I made it so. My secret was to avoid even connecting to the internet. I opened up a word processor, focused my eyes on the professor's slides or visual aids, and typed everything I saw, adding notes and annotations based on the professor's lecture.
This had the opposite effect of what this article describes: my focusing my distracted efforts on formatting the article and making my notes more coherent, I kept myself focused, and could much more easily engage with the class. Something about the menial task of taking the notes (which I found I rarely needed to review) prevented me from losing focus and wandering off to perform some unrelated activity.
I realize my experience is anecdotal, but then again, isn't everyone's? I think each student should evaluate their own style of learning, and decide how to best use the tools available to them. If the laptop is a distraction? Remove it! Goodness though, you're paying several hundred (/thousand) dollars per credit hour, best try to do everything you can to make that investment pay off.