Study helps explain why motivation to learn declines with age(news.mit.edu)
news.mit.edu
Study helps explain why motivation to learn declines with age
https://news.mit.edu/2020/why-learn-motivate-age-decline-1027
146 comments
I'm also finding that as I begin to tread into greybeard territory... I'm still super interested in learning new things. Actually interested in entire knowledge domains I wasn't before.
What seems to have changed is that I have less patience for, though, is learning ephemeral and arcane ways of doing something I already know how to do.
Learn to use microcontrollers? Sure! Never really dove in there, seems like an opportunity. Timeless mathematical knowledge? Totally game. Another front-end framework? Not really interested, maybe I'll wait and see if it survives 5 years and I can actually find people who can talk intelligently about the problems it solves rather than bearing thought-smell terms like "modern" as a fashionable totem.
Reserve new learning for new capabilities.
What seems to have changed is that I have less patience for, though, is learning ephemeral and arcane ways of doing something I already know how to do.
Learn to use microcontrollers? Sure! Never really dove in there, seems like an opportunity. Timeless mathematical knowledge? Totally game. Another front-end framework? Not really interested, maybe I'll wait and see if it survives 5 years and I can actually find people who can talk intelligently about the problems it solves rather than bearing thought-smell terms like "modern" as a fashionable totem.
Reserve new learning for new capabilities.
This is kind of my experience too, maybe disguised differently. I am finding new topics that take my interest and dig deeper and deeper. Topics I hated in school like geography, biology etc. are fascinating now, can't read enough. But there are also some weird ones - looking into how guns work, details of systems like ar-15 (I know some people judge me as next crazy shooter, for me its just curiosity). Learning how to repair various things at home (variable light switch disassembly is the latest one). Little things. Previously, couldn't care less.
Picked up psychology, trying to understand why many folks behave so weirdly and differently. Again, addicted to no end (Jordan Peterson's videos are a treasure trove for me now).
But still struggling with learning french, so not everything is so shiny.
Or maybe its a common story for my age group, don't know. But I know plenty of folks who are so deep in their comfort zone they don't care about new stuff anymore.
Maybe its normal
Picked up psychology, trying to understand why many folks behave so weirdly and differently. Again, addicted to no end (Jordan Peterson's videos are a treasure trove for me now).
But still struggling with learning french, so not everything is so shiny.
Or maybe its a common story for my age group, don't know. But I know plenty of folks who are so deep in their comfort zone they don't care about new stuff anymore.
Maybe its normal
History subject is actually making proper sense now. At school it was kinda tedious in some parts. (never had anything against biology, it's all technical stuff that we here like)
Yea, "looking into how guns work" isn't weird. It's just addictive: relative to other problems they're simple and physically intuitive, so for every new mechanism you get a kick from learning another easy thing you didn't need to know.
Yea, "looking into how guns work" isn't weird. It's just addictive: relative to other problems they're simple and physically intuitive, so for every new mechanism you get a kick from learning another easy thing you didn't need to know.
History started making sense a decade into adulthood, I hated it in school. I picked up a book on Cato and I was surprised some things existed in ancient Rome and modern India: bribing the electorate with money and gifts, people with diverse causes forming alliances and breaking up and again burying the hatchet, arranged marriages to cement bonds between men etc.
If you've focused on technical topics your whole life, 40+ is a great time to pursue a classic liberal arts agenda. I had a neighbour who went to a private liberal arts college straight out of high school (pretty rare in Canada) and I always felt "I should do that!". I've been an amateur economist since my early twenties and while I'm still quite technical it's refreshing to switch domains and read/study in different areas.
My dad, above 65 years old, is in college studying all kind of subject (cars, optics, lazer,...) He's doing it for fun and stay up late at night reading text books. I'm gonna probably grow up to be like that too.
I think the main reason for our love of learning is "good" boredom. When I'm bored and have nothing fun easily accessible, then learning something is very attractive. My hypothesis is that learning motivation is a function of boredom, entertainment accessibility, and stress. More boredom, more likely to learn. More entertainment available, less likely to learn. More stressed, less likely to learn.
This applies for both young and old people. Older people just tend to have more things to entertain them in life and/or more stressed.
I think the main reason for our love of learning is "good" boredom. When I'm bored and have nothing fun easily accessible, then learning something is very attractive. My hypothesis is that learning motivation is a function of boredom, entertainment accessibility, and stress. More boredom, more likely to learn. More entertainment available, less likely to learn. More stressed, less likely to learn.
This applies for both young and old people. Older people just tend to have more things to entertain them in life and/or more stressed.
This was actually my mother's dream in life, and I guess mine also, that if she had enough money to go back to school and always be learning new things.
However I tend to work best self taught, so I would probably prefer a direct tutoring model if necessary - if I had the money of course.
However I tend to work best self taught, so I would probably prefer a direct tutoring model if necessary - if I had the money of course.
It’s good that they still can and act on it. Maybe it’s brain chemistry but so many have it and waste it. While others try really hard and can’t stop the decay. A lot of older folks who retire don’t know what to do with all the free time and end up not so well especially ones whose only social life was at work.
Also having a sense of purpose can be the spark to the motivation flame.
I on the other hand, at 40 with family&child, I don’t have the same patience for just anything that comes my way. Only if something sparks my interest I manage a way to make some progress. Last year I begun a slow journey into lisp/scheme and found the same flame i had when i was a junior. With other mundane things I’ll most likely get a shallow depth of knowledge to the level needed to get my work done and if needed i do some deep dives. I used to go in depth at first but lately i found that the return on investment wasn’t too appealing.
I hope to still have the acument to learn later on in life when I have more time and fewer responsibilities
I on the other hand, at 40 with family&child, I don’t have the same patience for just anything that comes my way. Only if something sparks my interest I manage a way to make some progress. Last year I begun a slow journey into lisp/scheme and found the same flame i had when i was a junior. With other mundane things I’ll most likely get a shallow depth of knowledge to the level needed to get my work done and if needed i do some deep dives. I used to go in depth at first but lately i found that the return on investment wasn’t too appealing.
I hope to still have the acument to learn later on in life when I have more time and fewer responsibilities
If you focus on return on investment, you won’t get anywhere. Your child can remind you how to learn something just because it’s there, without concern for return on investment. The trick is allowing yourself to invest time in things that feel like play without interrupting yourself with thoughts of “but how will I use this?”
My opinion at a similar life stage, anyway.
My opinion at a similar life stage, anyway.
Im constantly learning something new that has zero returns on investment but the difference is that these things are for my own pleasure. I learn music theory without a particular goal. I paint without a particular goal. I play guitar and keyboard without any goal, I don’t see myself
as ever becoming a professional musician. But I do enjoy the journey.
What i was refering to is learning shiny tech that lasts for 2 cycles of 2 years then goes dusty. Most times it is convoluted and quirky, unintuitive, filled with jargon and the knowledge doesn’t translate well in other areas.
For example I put a month or two of effort to learn Angular 6 or 7 and then did a 4 month project with it. It was fun and enjoyed it but my company decided not to go with Angular anymore. In this sense I don’t regret it but the investment wasn’t really worth it and i’d rather spent the time deepening some other skillset that I could put to use. In my company everybody jumped on the blazor bandwagon. I don’t have a good feeling about it and have 0 motivation to learn it.
The knowledge you got from the javascript flavored web components and indexDB and service workers you might have used with Angular will come in handy optimizing wasm/blazor when you realize -- wasm is still a WIP and javascript and DOM libraries are still needed.
Also, I'm sure Micrsoft will support more than just C# for blazor (you interested in OCaml or F#?)
Also, I'm sure Micrsoft will support more than just C# for blazor (you interested in OCaml or F#?)
You are so correct! Knowledge that I have acquired just for the love of it has given me the greatest value in my career.
Learning used to be one of my passions. But with two small kids and a full time job, I have to redirect my energetic waking hours on few focused tasks. Constant interruptions rest of the day means I lose the motivation to do any tasks that need long attention spans.
Pick up cooking - a lot of deep science if you feel like it, instant feedback, ability to always literally conduct experiments and get something tasty as end result.
Thank you for sharing this. I read the article and I started feeling depressed (I'm turning 53 soon).
Your parents show it doesn't have to be that way! Hats off to them. They're an inspiration.
Your parents show it doesn't have to be that way! Hats off to them. They're an inspiration.
I'm "only" 61, so I've got a bit of the hill to descend yet. I can assure you my desire to learn hasn't changed a lot. The ability ability absorb new stuff has diminished, but it's made up for by the shear number of patterns I've learnt over the years allowing me to discover the mechanism they are trying to explain far faster than I was able to do it when young.
The end result is now I happily sit down with my son and enthusiastically try to get through machine learning papers (something he needs to keep up with). I still pick it up, well pick up at least the bits either of us understand, faster than him.
I agree with another poster here though. My tolerance for the learning fluff that may not be useful in 5 years time has all but vanished, and yes the prime example of that is JavaScript frameworks. Nothing wrong with a good JavaScript framework of course but as I heard a speaker introducing his framework say, they have the lifetime of split milk.
The end result is now I happily sit down with my son and enthusiastically try to get through machine learning papers (something he needs to keep up with). I still pick it up, well pick up at least the bits either of us understand, faster than him.
I agree with another poster here though. My tolerance for the learning fluff that may not be useful in 5 years time has all but vanished, and yes the prime example of that is JavaScript frameworks. Nothing wrong with a good JavaScript framework of course but as I heard a speaker introducing his framework say, they have the lifetime of split milk.
I’m 55 and have been studying for a degree in Mathematics. I’m about 2/3 the way through. It’s a challenge but enjoyable
Thanks for sharing this -- I'm 32 and only just finishing my undergrad in mathematics (I say finishing but I'm between 1 and 2 years away depending on how many courses I can juggle in addition to my day job and grown up responsibilities :)). And your post made me feel silly for feeling too old and silly to even bother to finish at this point in my life
Your dad is cool! (Despite that I think rewriting in JS might actually introduce more bugs than fixed ones :) )
A way to defeat death.. maybe. I am nearing the 40's and I am self studying math and more motivated than ever. For me, it is more satisfying an urge to know more and not waste my gifts by sitting in front of the tv the whole day.
> Apparently motivation to learn increases with age in my family.
"I was friends with one highschooler who constantly showed off his math knowledge. He much preferred to leave people (many of whom were poor) with the impression that he was superhuman, rather than proactively explaining that his father was a mathematician, his mother taught him at his Montessori grade school, and his family was very well-off..."
"I was friends with one highschooler who constantly showed off his math knowledge. He much preferred to leave people (many of whom were poor) with the impression that he was superhuman, rather than proactively explaining that his father was a mathematician, his mother taught him at his Montessori grade school, and his family was very well-off..."
My grandfather was similar. He learned to code in the 1980s on a Commodore 64 when he was in his 60s, built HAM radio gear, etc. My father who is now in his 60s is also an exception, so hopefully for my sake it runs in families.
These are exceptions though. Statistically most people do stop learning as they age, and from what I've observed I would tend to suspect it is due to motivational decline more than decline in actual ability (barring dementia or other issues).
These are exceptions though. Statistically most people do stop learning as they age, and from what I've observed I would tend to suspect it is due to motivational decline more than decline in actual ability (barring dementia or other issues).
That's an incredible story. I always enjoy reading about how people have managed to stay active and learn new things well past the typical retirement age.
What does your dad work on exactly? When did he start programming?
I hope I'm able to age so well; I'd love to get a law / medical degree at 65 and start a whole new career in my 70s :)
What does your dad work on exactly? When did he start programming?
I hope I'm able to age so well; I'd love to get a law / medical degree at 65 and start a whole new career in my 70s :)
I think my dad took an IBM training on mainframe programming when he was in college getting his business degree in the 60s. My earliest "tech memory" is from the huge Digital TSR-80 desk computer he bought in 1980. He did a lot of dBase II/III/IV and Clipper back then, bought a load of PC and Byte magazine and pirated a lot of diskettes. You could say he's a quintessential MIS hacker type.
Today he's responsible for reporting the hell out of a telecom's database (Oracle DB for the most part) in a large IT department. He's an "expert", not a manager nor team leader. He does a lot of SQL wrapped in Java spit out by Tomcat (iirc) and uses a deeply customized Eclipse editor. He's also created several logistics sw on the side through out the years, launching a couple of startups in the 80s and 90s, mostly for automating shipping and manufacturing processes, and that's how he paid for my college degree in CS.
I remember when he bought one of the first IBM RISC 6000 computers ever in 1990 (he was even featured in an IBM paid ad-article), loaded with AIX (IBM's Unix flavor). I wanted to help him out setting it up or just hack on it, I logged into the console and I asked "how do you edit a file in this thing?" (I was doing PC and DOS back then). He came over and said "I think it's called `vi`". He keyed in `e` or `i` and said "there, now type ESC + :wq to save the file". It blew my mind. I was 15.
Today he's responsible for reporting the hell out of a telecom's database (Oracle DB for the most part) in a large IT department. He's an "expert", not a manager nor team leader. He does a lot of SQL wrapped in Java spit out by Tomcat (iirc) and uses a deeply customized Eclipse editor. He's also created several logistics sw on the side through out the years, launching a couple of startups in the 80s and 90s, mostly for automating shipping and manufacturing processes, and that's how he paid for my college degree in CS.
I remember when he bought one of the first IBM RISC 6000 computers ever in 1990 (he was even featured in an IBM paid ad-article), loaded with AIX (IBM's Unix flavor). I wanted to help him out setting it up or just hack on it, I logged into the console and I asked "how do you edit a file in this thing?" (I was doing PC and DOS back then). He came over and said "I think it's called `vi`". He keyed in `e` or `i` and said "there, now type ESC + :wq to save the file". It blew my mind. I was 15.
Perhaps a silly question, but why would you not want to retire?
My grandparents keep mentally active (they are in their 80s) and pre-covid socially active. Plenty of books to read and things to learn, but they do so purely for fun.
Why not just learn things for fun at that age?
My grandparents keep mentally active (they are in their 80s) and pre-covid socially active. Plenty of books to read and things to learn, but they do so purely for fun.
Why not just learn things for fun at that age?
Not the person you are replying to, but maybe at that age they anticipate being financially secure and can apply their medicine or law degree to serve a needy community. That could be incredibly rewarding.
I'm open to just learning things for fun too; although ideally would like to be able to apply them somewhere.
What I fear is traditional retirement that I've seen some people choose: spending the rest of their days watching TV and grumbling about 'kids these days' :)
What I fear is traditional retirement that I've seen some people choose: spending the rest of their days watching TV and grumbling about 'kids these days' :)
We seem to pack most of our learning into the first quarter or third of our life, then taper off to almost nothing. That doesn't work for maintaining anything, so why would we think our ability to learn is any different? The physiological deterioration may be inevitable in some ways, but there are definitely other factors at play like habits, motivation, opportunity and lots more. Your example with your dad is incredibly rare in the general population, but probably a pretty common path amongst 67-yr-olds writing giant code bases, or 74-yr-olds still in programming jobs. I don't see it as defeating death as much as extracting everything out of life. Maybe the other side of the same coin?
Nice! I am also fortunate in this regard: my 99 year old father still does video production for an international organization as a volunteer, learned 3D animation, still travels and is active.
So your Dad is moving from a working, type-safe advanced language he understood well to Javascript which he's learning at the same time? That sounds like a mistake tbh.
I am not sure why you think that- I went from doing low level C++ in algo trading for ~10 years to node.js, and programming was never so much fun! No more fighting with the build system, getting a basic app up and running took less than an hour, no fighting with endless XML config, my change-->deploy cycle was seconds, not minutes the node.js debugger blew my mind- it was as good as Visual Studio... but in the browser?!
I could go on, but moving to node was an absolute pleasure and made me realize the Stockholm Syndrome I had in regards to C++.
I could go on, but moving to node was an absolute pleasure and made me realize the Stockholm Syndrome I had in regards to C++.
As an ex-C++ developer myself I agree the builds are horrible, but go/java/C# are a great middle with type safety and a quick compile time.
You may not be wrong about C# or Go, I haven't used C# in any capacity in probably 15 years now, and have only dabbled lightly in Go, but Java at least I find is still pretty heavy- awhile back I wrote about my experience trying node here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21784272 and I think it sums it up pretty well and is more than I am willing to retype :)
> Java programmers, however, seem to really delight in building architectural monuments and get paid by the abstraction.
Lol true, sounds like a bunch of people in my team.
Lol true, sounds like a bunch of people in my team.
Not the point!
That’s amazingly inspirational! Bless your parents!
Please share this story with a lot of people. It may inspire many to follow the same path.
Please share this story with a lot of people. It may inspire many to follow the same path.
Thank you for your story! This is extremely motivating. I hope to be like your parents when I'm the same age.
I don't want to minimise what your mom does, but part of the problem is that it is only being talked about abusive men and people may think the women cannot abuse. It seems like it is where equality needs to be improved as men do not have access to help as good as women.
Do your parents drink alcohol often, and/or do they exercise?
Neither of them drinks, both of them walk, my dad walks to work, my mom around the block daily, but nothing out of the ordinary.
In fact, my dad just got his pacemaker put in, his heart was slowing down due to a genetic valve malformation. He said the month recovery downtime was great because he was able to catch up on some of the tech books he often buys, sometimes compulsively. He's learning some new ORM or something too. The pacemaker gave him a boost of energy to get some new chops here and there.
In fact, my dad just got his pacemaker put in, his heart was slowing down due to a genetic valve malformation. He said the month recovery downtime was great because he was able to catch up on some of the tech books he often buys, sometimes compulsively. He's learning some new ORM or something too. The pacemaker gave him a boost of energy to get some new chops here and there.
That's awesome.
Please write again every few years, let us know how your folks are doing. More power to them.
Please write again every few years, let us know how your folks are doing. More power to them.
Wow, hats off to your mom and dad!
Sounds like a downgrade target than an upgrade to me
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I find that as I get older I have less time to learn the latest and greatest new shiny tech, while I really want to focus on deepening my understanding of topics I've already invested in. I feel annoyed when tech changes because I spent time learning the old thing and I can't get that time back. I think the core idea here is that with more demands on my time, I've become more choosy about how I spend it.
This study isn't about that. They've found an area of the brain in mice that seems to be related to motivation to make decisions with complex cost benefit analysis. This type of decision making is impaired when under stress, by mental health diagnosis, or, according to the study, by an aged brain. If any conclusion is worth drawing here it's the increased importance of mental health as we age.
This is not an argument for all of us to try to keep up with the shiny new language/framework/whirlwind.
This study isn't about that. They've found an area of the brain in mice that seems to be related to motivation to make decisions with complex cost benefit analysis. This type of decision making is impaired when under stress, by mental health diagnosis, or, according to the study, by an aged brain. If any conclusion is worth drawing here it's the increased importance of mental health as we age.
This is not an argument for all of us to try to keep up with the shiny new language/framework/whirlwind.
Programming and IT in general is such a bummer in that regard. 20 years of relearning how to do the same thing differently wears on you. I learned JavaScript 15+ years ago, and I’m still having to relearn that nonsense every couple years. “JavaScript on the server now!? What? Why? Ok, fine. Here we go again.”
Though I understand that feeling, OTOH usually we can learn it much faster and easier since we know many of the concepts, and many of those are still used (function, request, response, serialization to name a few).
Tools however is harder. Elastic, graphql, docker, front end framework (angular, react vue), are very very different conceptually compared to the past technology.
Tools however is harder. Elastic, graphql, docker, front end framework (angular, react vue), are very very different conceptually compared to the past technology.
It's not too hard to pick up new tech when you've been in the industry for a while. You can even do it on the job with some afterwork study.
To me the problem is the emphasis some companies place on knowing specific tech.
>Must have five years experience in Web development with a focus on front end frameworks eg react/angular and cloud experience (aws preferred)
VS
>must have two years experience with the following; asp net 5.0, aspnet mvc 5.0, automapper, xunit, tiny ioc and azure Webapps
However, typical the good companies have the former. So you can spot it out pretty easy. Although I fear the industry is moving more to specific skill sets and certification. The certificates trend is being pushed harder as it makes a lot of money for these companies.
To me the problem is the emphasis some companies place on knowing specific tech.
>Must have five years experience in Web development with a focus on front end frameworks eg react/angular and cloud experience (aws preferred)
VS
>must have two years experience with the following; asp net 5.0, aspnet mvc 5.0, automapper, xunit, tiny ioc and azure Webapps
However, typical the good companies have the former. So you can spot it out pretty easy. Although I fear the industry is moving more to specific skill sets and certification. The certificates trend is being pushed harder as it makes a lot of money for these companies.
It's not hard, but as someone who's done it a few times before you lack intrinsic motivation. Something that is fun to people half your age is just work for you.
In my country I can easily fake the years experience. If you're good enough at the tools, you can bluff at the interview. Usually at least 3 from 4 companies will continue with the recruitment.
With certification, I don't think it'll happen in near future, due to how hard it is to certificate a programmer and how scarce they are right now. Though it's possible for outsourced foreign developers such as India to be required certification.
With certification, I don't think it'll happen in near future, due to how hard it is to certificate a programmer and how scarce they are right now. Though it's possible for outsourced foreign developers such as India to be required certification.
> You can even do it on the job with some afterwork study.
What this assertion misses is that many no longer want to work in their free time anymore. Even if I love programming ever since 12y/o I can no longer make myself care about $day_job when I can have a proper rest, which is precious and not that much anyway.
What this assertion misses is that many no longer want to work in their free time anymore. Even if I love programming ever since 12y/o I can no longer make myself care about $day_job when I can have a proper rest, which is precious and not that much anyway.
"afterwork study" for work sounds like "work" to me.
Angular and deeper rxjs stuff broke my brain for awhile.
Benefits over jquery were clear. However replacing one jquer my developer with 10 modern developers that got only a fraction of the work done.
Well that broke my brain too.
Now I’m in a situation of developing against k8 infrastructure, I’m seriously thinking of going back to compiled python programs that can be emailed. Just some people can actually get work done.
Benefits over jquery were clear. However replacing one jquer my developer with 10 modern developers that got only a fraction of the work done.
Well that broke my brain too.
Now I’m in a situation of developing against k8 infrastructure, I’m seriously thinking of going back to compiled python programs that can be emailed. Just some people can actually get work done.
> compiled python programs that can be emailed
I learned Python programming almost 20 years ago by also writing a small script on my Linux machine (a Mandrake distribution), running it through py2exe and then copying it on a floppy disk, then get to work and use that .exe program to automate some stuff for me there.
That proved to me that programming can be very helpful sometimes, as in that example it provided me with lots of free time during work, on the behalf of the stuff I had just "automated" for myself. Very good times.
I learned Python programming almost 20 years ago by also writing a small script on my Linux machine (a Mandrake distribution), running it through py2exe and then copying it on a floppy disk, then get to work and use that .exe program to automate some stuff for me there.
That proved to me that programming can be very helpful sometimes, as in that example it provided me with lots of free time during work, on the behalf of the stuff I had just "automated" for myself. Very good times.
Many developers forget, that you don't go fishing locally using an aircraft carrier or battleships. A small raft is enough.
If your team is small, use tools that can perform the best on small team, if your team is big, use one that can support it. K8s is used for going big, angular is used for complex interface.
If your team is small, use tools that can perform the best on small team, if your team is big, use one that can support it. K8s is used for going big, angular is used for complex interface.
Resume Driven Development is a thing for a reason.
If your team is always gonna be small, then how are you going to learn the stuff that scales?
Are you going to wait get a job that allows you to do so?
If your team is always gonna be small, then how are you going to learn the stuff that scales?
Are you going to wait get a job that allows you to do so?
You don't use that on production ever. Try to use it on dev server, local or test server all you want, but not production, at least until you know the cases and confident that your team can handle it on production.
Then you can still add that to your resume.
Then you can still add that to your resume.
You're using JavaScript? We've all moved on to TypeScript! ;)
But yeah, much of the "relearning", I've found, is to work with new sets of tools that solve problems that... we didn't have 15-20 years ago. Or, not to the same degree, at least. And some of those new problems and changes have benefits, some don't, some are solving self-imposed problems, some are "solving" problems that don't have concrete "solutions", only "opinions".
But yeah, much of the "relearning", I've found, is to work with new sets of tools that solve problems that... we didn't have 15-20 years ago. Or, not to the same degree, at least. And some of those new problems and changes have benefits, some don't, some are solving self-imposed problems, some are "solving" problems that don't have concrete "solutions", only "opinions".
That's pretty funny but the V8 system rewrote what javascript is while retaining and adding onto the syntax, as you might have realized by now.
Yes, I agree with the same sentiment. Part of my unwillingness to learn new shiny tech is that it doesn’t spark a deep interest and have to force myself through it. I still do catch up but skip some generations.
Just wondering but if not JavaScript on the server then what were you using previously?
Learning a new tool when you have limited set of current tools is a good investment. But there is a aspect of marginal returns that comes into play here.
It's not just the increased demands on your time, but the knowledge that it's ticking away... As you get older you get more critical/anxious about wasting time and more reticent about investing in something that has no compelling return on investment.
It's not just the increased demands on your time, but the knowledge that it's ticking away... As you get older you get more critical/anxious about wasting time and more reticent about investing in something that has no compelling return on investment.
Ctrl+f "explore" on OP: 0 results.
Ctrl+f "explore" in the HN comments: 0 results.
The generalized disinclination to learn towards the end of your life is known as the explore-exploit tradeoff: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-armed_bandit
>In probability theory, the multi-armed bandit problem (sometimes called the K-[1] or N-armed bandit problem[2]) is a problem in which a fixed limited set of resources must be allocated between competing (alternative) choices in a way that maximizes their expected gain, when each choice's properties are only partially known at the time of allocation, and may become better understood as time passes or by allocating resources to the choice.[3][4] This is a classic reinforcement learning problem that exemplifies the exploration–exploitation tradeoff dilemma. The name comes from imagining a gambler at a row of slot machines (sometimes known as "one-armed bandits"), who has to decide which machines to play, how many times to play each machine and in which order to play them, and whether to continue with the current machine or try a different machine.[5] The multi-armed bandit problem also falls into the broad category of stochastic scheduling.
>In the problem, each machine provides a random reward from a probability distribution specific to that machine. The objective of the gambler is to maximize the sum of rewards earned through a sequence of lever pulls.[3][4] The crucial tradeoff the gambler faces at each trial is between "exploitation" of the machine that has the highest expected payoff and "exploration" to get more information about the expected payoffs of the other machines. The trade-off between exploration and exploitation is also faced in machine learning.
Ctrl+f "explore" in the HN comments: 0 results.
The generalized disinclination to learn towards the end of your life is known as the explore-exploit tradeoff: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-armed_bandit
>In probability theory, the multi-armed bandit problem (sometimes called the K-[1] or N-armed bandit problem[2]) is a problem in which a fixed limited set of resources must be allocated between competing (alternative) choices in a way that maximizes their expected gain, when each choice's properties are only partially known at the time of allocation, and may become better understood as time passes or by allocating resources to the choice.[3][4] This is a classic reinforcement learning problem that exemplifies the exploration–exploitation tradeoff dilemma. The name comes from imagining a gambler at a row of slot machines (sometimes known as "one-armed bandits"), who has to decide which machines to play, how many times to play each machine and in which order to play them, and whether to continue with the current machine or try a different machine.[5] The multi-armed bandit problem also falls into the broad category of stochastic scheduling.
>In the problem, each machine provides a random reward from a probability distribution specific to that machine. The objective of the gambler is to maximize the sum of rewards earned through a sequence of lever pulls.[3][4] The crucial tradeoff the gambler faces at each trial is between "exploitation" of the machine that has the highest expected payoff and "exploration" to get more information about the expected payoffs of the other machines. The trade-off between exploration and exploitation is also faced in machine learning.
Looks like a variation of the Law of Diminishing Returns
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminishing_returns
I can learn many new things for fun but I already know a lot of things I'm fond of, which one should I give away given that time is finite? I didn't know anything when I was little and much less than now when I was half my age. Furthermore there are a few things I like and I became reasonably good at, professionally or for fun. I won't give them away unless I have to.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminishing_returns
I can learn many new things for fun but I already know a lot of things I'm fond of, which one should I give away given that time is finite? I didn't know anything when I was little and much less than now when I was half my age. Furthermore there are a few things I like and I became reasonably good at, professionally or for fun. I won't give them away unless I have to.
I think the multi-armed bandit problem would assume that the probability distribution, for each choice, would remain a constant for the duration of the problem.
Diminishing returns would imply that some subset of those choices would have decreasing probability of a positive pay-off the more they are used. This would be more realistic, and much harder to model. With the constant probabilities with the payoff being for a single score, it makes sense to just search for the highest expected value score. But that expected value relies on the probability distribution remaining the same!
Diminishing returns would imply that some subset of those choices would have decreasing probability of a positive pay-off the more they are used. This would be more realistic, and much harder to model. With the constant probabilities with the payoff being for a single score, it makes sense to just search for the highest expected value score. But that expected value relies on the probability distribution remaining the same!
Perhaps it's just a habit I've stumbled into because of ADHD, but I find that in the long run choosing to spend time on learning something very different doesn't feel like a zero sum game. It's because the different new things to learn compliment the old things and you can leverage that.
I love contributions like yours and pmontra's, I really do. It's a huge hobby of mine to find, read about, correlate, compare, distill and share similar, and at times not so similar, concepts from different industries, disciplines and ages.
I really don't know why it's so, so, satisfying to me. Probably I am on the more extreme end of the spectrum, as I assume most HN readers are, of the dopamine-driven reward of information, which brings me to the link and quite I wanted to share ;)
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2013.0076...
> The general function of dopamine is to promote exploration, by facilitating engagement with cues of specific reward (value) and cues of the reward value of information (salience). This theory constitutes an extension of the entropy model of uncertainty (EMU; Hirsh et al., 2012), enabling EMU to account for the fact that uncertainty is an innate incentive reward as well as an innate threat.
I really don't know why it's so, so, satisfying to me. Probably I am on the more extreme end of the spectrum, as I assume most HN readers are, of the dopamine-driven reward of information, which brings me to the link and quite I wanted to share ;)
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2013.0076...
> The general function of dopamine is to promote exploration, by facilitating engagement with cues of specific reward (value) and cues of the reward value of information (salience). This theory constitutes an extension of the entropy model of uncertainty (EMU; Hirsh et al., 2012), enabling EMU to account for the fact that uncertainty is an innate incentive reward as well as an innate threat.
OP says that it's possible to use medications to shift towards "explore". Are you implying that the true "exploit" phase (for a major part of life) is more desirable?
Someone had managed to learn Borland Delphi in the first 50 years of their life, has been mostly exploiting Delphi for 20 years, they would be 70 now. This example closely matches the statistical model that you are proposing. Originally I wanted to post a strong critique, but now I wonder about the actual real life of such Delphi graybeard. Looks somewhat tempting.
Someone had managed to learn Borland Delphi in the first 50 years of their life, has been mostly exploiting Delphi for 20 years, they would be 70 now. This example closely matches the statistical model that you are proposing. Originally I wanted to post a strong critique, but now I wonder about the actual real life of such Delphi graybeard. Looks somewhat tempting.
I imply nothing. Must everyone harbor a shadowy agenda?
The math does not care. For some number of slot machines, for some variance of payout, there is a single optimal explore-exploit strategy. If there are two slot machines, then a optimal agent does very little exploring. If there are a million slot machines, almost all with a $1 payout, but one with a $1 trillion payout, then you are inclined to do more exploring.[1]
Your disagreement is not with the theorem, but the shape of the distribution of slot machines.
And, of course, that distribution changes over time. For most of human history there either was no technological progress or it was imperceptible across a lifetime. Our current riot of ever-changing software tools is unprecedented. And, as hard as it is to believe when we're in the thick of it, eventually computing will become a mature technology. A century from now, you can be sure there will be fewer programming languages in use, and they will be more similar to each other. If humans are still programming, the Delphi graybeard will be the norm, not the exception.
The only thing that would force our current milieu to be permanent is if computing technology is inherently vulnerable to Red Queen's race-style situations, where platforms have to constantly mutate to stay ahead of attackers.
--
1: This is the actual useful takeaway from this submission, not the text from the article, which is the usual "science news" trash.
The math does not care. For some number of slot machines, for some variance of payout, there is a single optimal explore-exploit strategy. If there are two slot machines, then a optimal agent does very little exploring. If there are a million slot machines, almost all with a $1 payout, but one with a $1 trillion payout, then you are inclined to do more exploring.[1]
Your disagreement is not with the theorem, but the shape of the distribution of slot machines.
And, of course, that distribution changes over time. For most of human history there either was no technological progress or it was imperceptible across a lifetime. Our current riot of ever-changing software tools is unprecedented. And, as hard as it is to believe when we're in the thick of it, eventually computing will become a mature technology. A century from now, you can be sure there will be fewer programming languages in use, and they will be more similar to each other. If humans are still programming, the Delphi graybeard will be the norm, not the exception.
The only thing that would force our current milieu to be permanent is if computing technology is inherently vulnerable to Red Queen's race-style situations, where platforms have to constantly mutate to stay ahead of attackers.
--
1: This is the actual useful takeaway from this submission, not the text from the article, which is the usual "science news" trash.
Learning involves being wrong, and being wrong is stressful. The older you are, the more stressful it is. In humans, there is a strong ego component, but I imagine that there is also a physiological resistance that comes from a lifetime of learned skills, models, behaviors, and traumas. Having gotten cuts, scrapes, bruises, and maybe breaks while learning to ride a bicycle, which still continues to work just fine for getting you where you need to go, it's a hard sell to suffer or risk another set of cuts/scrapes/breaks to learn to ride a bikeprime, even if it's a qualitatively better tool--it's not essential. And we also learn over the decades that our bodies and minds at 64 are not as flexible and resilient as they were at 4 or 34.
If there were just one new bikeprime every few years, it would be easier to settle in for the pain and benefit. But the pace of technological change is much much faster, and along with intense marketing, it seems like there are dozens of new bikeprimes every year. Many of these turn out to be mostly hype, so it's hard to know where to invest energy. And every time a supposed bikeprime turns out to be more pain than it's worth, there's a real lesson that's learned about the value of bikeprimes in general. And so we become older, more skeptical, more rigid.
I also think there is some aspect of survivorship bias in the value of "learning new skills". For every person who invested the time in learning a skill that turned out to be valuable for them overall, there are other people who spent years investing in a skill that turned out to be a dead-end.
If there were just one new bikeprime every few years, it would be easier to settle in for the pain and benefit. But the pace of technological change is much much faster, and along with intense marketing, it seems like there are dozens of new bikeprimes every year. Many of these turn out to be mostly hype, so it's hard to know where to invest energy. And every time a supposed bikeprime turns out to be more pain than it's worth, there's a real lesson that's learned about the value of bikeprimes in general. And so we become older, more skeptical, more rigid.
I also think there is some aspect of survivorship bias in the value of "learning new skills". For every person who invested the time in learning a skill that turned out to be valuable for them overall, there are other people who spent years investing in a skill that turned out to be a dead-end.
OK - what's a bikeprime? Google couldn't help me.
It’s a rhetorical construct here: they mean a non-bike thing that also requires scraping your knees to learn.
If the original bike was bike, then the next one is bike' (pronounced bike prime), and the one after that bike'' (bikeprimeprime), and so on.
Compare the orthography to bike_0, bike_1, bike_2, etc.
Compare the orthography to bike_0, bike_1, bike_2, etc.
From the context I would say, the latest fad. The new hot thing, mode, rage, trend?
What you’ve never heard of bikeprime? It’s the latest thing in gammatronics
bikeprime, double plus good!
Hey shoot me an email! [email protected] love your cryptocurrency comments
Probably a reference to “priming” variables in mathematical contexts. You have variable x and then variable x’
comes up. Or you learn to ride a bike and then later on you’re supposed to figure out how to ride a bike’.
It seems the older I get, the more my life fills up with obligations. The bits left over are lower and lower quality. It used to be that an entire evening would be unplanned; I would grab something out of the fridge for dinner, sit down, and think about if I wanted to read a book or write some code or watch a new movie I was excited about. Even if I was "lazy" and chose the movie 50% of the time, I was still getting through a couple of books a month. Now at 6pm I am wanted for something, guaranteed. If it is not something specific, it is to be available for interruptions. At the end of the evening, when I really should be asleep already, I am released from interruption duty, and sometimes I can get an hour or more to myself, depending on how much sleep I want to rob myself of. At that point I would be sleepy if I wasn't stressed out, and I've probably had a couple of drinks, but that's when I hack on a personal project, or (more likely) switch to YouTube if I am not coherent enough to write code that actually works. And if I watch something like 3Blue1Brown or a software presentation then I count that as "learning."
> I am released from interruption duty
Ha, that's an apt way to put it. It seems to me as well that we aren't living in the information age insomuch as we are living in the interruption age.
Ha, that's an apt way to put it. It seems to me as well that we aren't living in the information age insomuch as we are living in the interruption age.
A lot of the motivation to learn comes from being insecure about not knowing. Especially when your young. As you get older you become less insecure about not knowing and have less to prove, so motivation to learn declines.
This research addresses only learning in mice, who are unlikely to deliberate why they no longer have their old passion for running mazes or tapping levers for sugar water. So I think it's a bit fanciful to equate senescent mouse substantia nigra with human ennui.
IN MICE.
https://twitter.com/justsaysinmice calls out headlines like this regularly.
https://twitter.com/justsaysinmice calls out headlines like this regularly.
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I feel that as I get older there is no lack of motivation or ability to learn at all. In fact, I'd say I have become more efficient at it through getting better at the meta.
I most certainly have become more critical of what to learn. I prefer diving deep into subjects of substance rather than threading water learning the syntax of yet another niche programming language that arguably marginally improves on use case X if all the stars allign or leaning the quirks of yet another framework Y that is flavor of the month and just a rehash of a fashion of 5 years ago.
I most certainly have become more critical of what to learn. I prefer diving deep into subjects of substance rather than threading water learning the syntax of yet another niche programming language that arguably marginally improves on use case X if all the stars allign or leaning the quirks of yet another framework Y that is flavor of the month and just a rehash of a fashion of 5 years ago.
Yeah, i feel less motivated to spend effort on things Im pretty sure won't have any pay off in the end.
What I'm slightly worried about is being to critical and writing everything off as a waste of time. There's not a a lot of good ways to tell not learning something was a good idea or not, so you don't get feedback.
What I'm slightly worried about is being to critical and writing everything off as a waste of time. There's not a a lot of good ways to tell not learning something was a good idea or not, so you don't get feedback.
It seems these researchers have potentially zeroed in on the specific neural regulatory system behind the adage that 'you can't teach an old dog new tricks'.
That they are able to administer drugs to manipulate the gradual deadening of this risk/reward learning mechanism is incredibly cool. I wonder if there is an adaptive reason for this circuitry to cool with age, and if there will be any serious unintended side effects from artificially boosting it. In any case, this new finding is exciting, with potentially broad applications for future medicine, and the tantalizing ability for more people to continue to live life to the fullest in older age.
That they are able to administer drugs to manipulate the gradual deadening of this risk/reward learning mechanism is incredibly cool. I wonder if there is an adaptive reason for this circuitry to cool with age, and if there will be any serious unintended side effects from artificially boosting it. In any case, this new finding is exciting, with potentially broad applications for future medicine, and the tantalizing ability for more people to continue to live life to the fullest in older age.
We are constantly learning, every day, pretty much almost every second we are awake/alive.
This might be conflating academic studying with actual learning.
We learn names of people, we learn their stories, we learn the news and tons of other stuff that we don't even notice or realize that we are learning all the time.
This might be conflating academic studying with actual learning.
We learn names of people, we learn their stories, we learn the news and tons of other stuff that we don't even notice or realize that we are learning all the time.
My father who is 53 years of age called me up and said he’s enrolling for GeorgiaTech Web Developer boot camp. He’s a functional consultant and is pissed off at the way developers whiz past him and dominate during client conversations.
That’s my point.
That’s my point.
Post-factum correction: My father is 59.
I thought there's also a selection effect at play.
People who get to be successful in life and live a good old age (you tend not to talk to or see the opposite) -- with all those years of experience behind them, they start to think that the traits and opinions that got them there are probably correct.
And that radically different or new things that they might benefit from learning, probably in their mind aren't going to be more successful (or of much potential benefit) than what worked for them already.
There's basically a full slate of things that made them successful. And that's not a bad thing! People couldn't survive so well without a sense of what good things worked for you.
But I think as you get older (unless you're exceptionally alert and open-minded), this confirmation bias of your own success starts to close your mind off to new, different thoughts and pathways. Unless you actively make it a point of erasing and making space for new ideas, you fall back on the old and don't seek out the new to fill your mind.
People who get to be successful in life and live a good old age (you tend not to talk to or see the opposite) -- with all those years of experience behind them, they start to think that the traits and opinions that got them there are probably correct.
And that radically different or new things that they might benefit from learning, probably in their mind aren't going to be more successful (or of much potential benefit) than what worked for them already.
There's basically a full slate of things that made them successful. And that's not a bad thing! People couldn't survive so well without a sense of what good things worked for you.
But I think as you get older (unless you're exceptionally alert and open-minded), this confirmation bias of your own success starts to close your mind off to new, different thoughts and pathways. Unless you actively make it a point of erasing and making space for new ideas, you fall back on the old and don't seek out the new to fill your mind.
I know a lot of people including my dad and several of his friends who picked up music and programming after retiring from their 30 year old accounting job at the age of 62. Also many people like to term this as an exception rather than rule, but know that it is not. My observation has been that people who lack the motivation are either the ones who are constantly stressed with their job and life, or who are content with what they know.
Take some time off from work, meditate, be idle. Your mind will automatically want to do something that is productive. Most of these researches are averaged out observations which say no more about your ideal bp than I can by looking at you. So please learn all you want and please don't base your decision to learn new things based on a generic research result. And no MIT is not an authority on your life. If you really want to know your brain health, go get an fmri, but please don't let your desire to learn be dictated by what others say.
Take some time off from work, meditate, be idle. Your mind will automatically want to do something that is productive. Most of these researches are averaged out observations which say no more about your ideal bp than I can by looking at you. So please learn all you want and please don't base your decision to learn new things based on a generic research result. And no MIT is not an authority on your life. If you really want to know your brain health, go get an fmri, but please don't let your desire to learn be dictated by what others say.
Reading all the comments about "I want to learn something deeper instead of just shinny things" (I completely agree on that) makes me think that one thing does not exclude the other.
We that are over 40 may want to stop chasing trends because is wasteful and we have learned that brings little value, but maybe also because our brains are wired to think that way.
I think that I would not notice the difference of changing what I learn because I though about it or because my though changed because underlying physical changes in the brain.
If I could take a pill and re-active the "brain circuit that is critical for maintaining this kind of motivation [for learning]" that would be awesome. I would be able to compare my reasoning before and after the pill. That's an experience that I would like to have.
We that are over 40 may want to stop chasing trends because is wasteful and we have learned that brings little value, but maybe also because our brains are wired to think that way.
I think that I would not notice the difference of changing what I learn because I though about it or because my though changed because underlying physical changes in the brain.
If I could take a pill and re-active the "brain circuit that is critical for maintaining this kind of motivation [for learning]" that would be awesome. I would be able to compare my reasoning before and after the pill. That's an experience that I would like to have.
I'm 46 and trying to escape this algorithms course so I can finish my master's degree. I'm definitely feeling that motivation slippin...
Yes, I studied mathematics quite late, I didn't graduate until I was 49. If I'm being honest I was pretty sick of it by the end and just wanted to get it done.
This was quite a contrast to learning technology earlier in my life and I'm sure it says more about my age than anything else.
This was quite a contrast to learning technology earlier in my life and I'm sure it says more about my age than anything else.
Don't worry, most people don't escape it so you'll have camaraderie whether you do or don't!
A surplus of curiosity kept me in college for a lot longer than I needed to be there. That curiosity never left me. I'm very sure that's true of many if not most people, in both the arts and sciences.
Maybe it's a personal thing, but I suspect strong curiosity inborn in most of us. We all had to learn a very complex language after all. Necessity may keep many from feeding it --cultural factors may also discourage it -- a crappy educational environment may foster cynicism - then maybe it goes away if it isn't nurtured. A lot of (well-known human) educational researchers came to similar conclusions.
If a study of brain circuits in rodents finds otherwise, well, rodents aren't human.
Maybe it's a personal thing, but I suspect strong curiosity inborn in most of us. We all had to learn a very complex language after all. Necessity may keep many from feeding it --cultural factors may also discourage it -- a crappy educational environment may foster cynicism - then maybe it goes away if it isn't nurtured. A lot of (well-known human) educational researchers came to similar conclusions.
If a study of brain circuits in rodents finds otherwise, well, rodents aren't human.
1st the people on HN are not a random sample of the population. For those in computer science, programming, and science, learning is THE job in a sense...and there is definitely evidence for use-it-or-lose it and the brain. So all the personal stories here won't tell us much about what happens to the average human as they age...and even then it will happen to us at some point.
Also, pontificating on how stressful it is for older people to be wrong without empirical evidence is rich.
Overall, the quality of HN posts about non computer/ML topics is quite poor.
Also, pontificating on how stressful it is for older people to be wrong without empirical evidence is rich.
Overall, the quality of HN posts about non computer/ML topics is quite poor.
This.
I feel I learned a lot more about insecurity related to 'keeping up' in tech from this thread than I did about brain changes in mice.
As someone older, I have enough experience that I can see which things are heading to dead ends and which might lead to more experiences.
Learn another foreign langauge? Sure, why not. Learn machining? Sure, why not.
Go learn to skateboard or snowboard? A pass--where would I go with that at my age? Learn something new related to computers? Your bar to clear to motivate me on that is huge (but it does occasionally clear). Go back and push my Quantum Mechanics or Solid State Physics to another layer? Nah, not without a good reason.
Learn another foreign langauge? Sure, why not. Learn machining? Sure, why not.
Go learn to skateboard or snowboard? A pass--where would I go with that at my age? Learn something new related to computers? Your bar to clear to motivate me on that is huge (but it does occasionally clear). Go back and push my Quantum Mechanics or Solid State Physics to another layer? Nah, not without a good reason.
There are some evergreen computer topics, like SQL, and bash, design patterns. I focus on those rather than the latest Javascript library. But otherwise, I really want to focus on things which help me give back, communicate, or understand the world better. For example, I am studying Latin because it helps me understand the deep history of humanity, and of languages, and the evolution of thought and consciousness. I practice guitar because I realize that music is all about communication and creating special, authentic experiences. I love to get outside, and I am more interested in geology, botony, and the birds and the animals than I ever was. Because those things are deep and unchanging.
I think part of it is also about risk/reward. I can spend time learning something, but if I don't have the confidence it will pay off, I find it much harder to commit. Maybe it's about having less time ahead of you or being more cynical.
Can you ski as opposed to snowboarding? I've ridden the lifts up with many older people, 60s-70s. They are there for a range of reasons but mostly related to pastimes, escape, and enjoying it.
I don't know what older means to you, but I think you inadvertently described a self-limiting thing in your quest not to.
I don't know what older means to you, but I think you inadvertently described a self-limiting thing in your quest not to.
It's not about other older people doing it. If they enjoy doing it, great for them.
I never learned to ski or skate, so I have to ask myself why should I learn to do that instead of some other physical activity I already enjoy.
And, to be fair, as a kid I never learned to ski or skate for good reason. The kids who skied or skated always seemed to have lots and lots of broken bones. Nah, I'll pass. I've got other sports I like that don't seem to bust my bones up.
I never learned to ski or skate, so I have to ask myself why should I learn to do that instead of some other physical activity I already enjoy.
And, to be fair, as a kid I never learned to ski or skate for good reason. The kids who skied or skated always seemed to have lots and lots of broken bones. Nah, I'll pass. I've got other sports I like that don't seem to bust my bones up.
I’m 58, and I have spent the last three years, “retooling” myself. It’s worked out well. I’m currently well underway (alone) with one of the biggest projects I’ve ever been involved with, and I worked in pretty big teams.
I learn something new (often, multiple somethings) every day.
In fact, I seem to learn faster, and more comprehensively(understanding why, as well as what). I think that my experience helps to create a good baseline, that was missing, when I was younger.
I learn something new (often, multiple somethings) every day.
In fact, I seem to learn faster, and more comprehensively(understanding why, as well as what). I think that my experience helps to create a good baseline, that was missing, when I was younger.
I’m having this experience also. I’ve changed technologies several times over the last 20 years, each time diving into more complex languages, and I’m finding that not only is my understanding deepening it’s also accelerating. I look back on my previous developer self and shake my head with disbelief at how little I really knew at each stage.
Incidentally I also needed to learn a whole new spoken language over the same period (having moved country) and now having mastered that, I’ve begun another course to learn French (to add to the other three languages I speak).
What I do recognize is the energy lacking to just follow ‘any’ project that I had in my 20s and 30s. Now my learning is focused and attuned.
Incidentally I also needed to learn a whole new spoken language over the same period (having moved country) and now having mastered that, I’ve begun another course to learn French (to add to the other three languages I speak).
What I do recognize is the energy lacking to just follow ‘any’ project that I had in my 20s and 30s. Now my learning is focused and attuned.
What I find, is that my investment in learning has bifurcated.
I invest in learning how to negotiate the s/w systems I have no choice but to use, (jira) to my advantage. There is a strong cost/benefit outcome favouring this learning.
I invest in learning enough about things otherwise that interest me, to decide if I need to deep dive or not. I did a haskell MOOC for this reason (Glasgow Uni) and the outcomes were mixed: I had no opportunity to move this into the first category (directly applicable at work) but I felt very motivated by what I learned about FP and typed languages.
I try not to over-invest in anything in this space, learning is hard. I'm 59. I hope I can continue to learn, and maybe even pick up the pace, but learning is hard, and being made to do courses in stuff I don't want to (leadership, presentation skills, new whizz-bang techniques to do old things) costs me brain time I think of now a as a precious asset.
I invest in learning how to negotiate the s/w systems I have no choice but to use, (jira) to my advantage. There is a strong cost/benefit outcome favouring this learning.
I invest in learning enough about things otherwise that interest me, to decide if I need to deep dive or not. I did a haskell MOOC for this reason (Glasgow Uni) and the outcomes were mixed: I had no opportunity to move this into the first category (directly applicable at work) but I felt very motivated by what I learned about FP and typed languages.
I try not to over-invest in anything in this space, learning is hard. I'm 59. I hope I can continue to learn, and maybe even pick up the pace, but learning is hard, and being made to do courses in stuff I don't want to (leadership, presentation skills, new whizz-bang techniques to do old things) costs me brain time I think of now a as a precious asset.
> When the researchers used genetically targeted drugs to boost activity in the striosomes
I was expecting direct stimulation through electrodes or something, but designer drugs? Really?
Pop a pill when you start college/university or a new job, get a motivation boost to everything new.
This would be crazy.
(...maybe a bad idea at college due to the risk factor boost, but still...)
I was expecting direct stimulation through electrodes or something, but designer drugs? Really?
Pop a pill when you start college/university or a new job, get a motivation boost to everything new.
This would be crazy.
(...maybe a bad idea at college due to the risk factor boost, but still...)
It accelerates for some. "The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know." -AE
I bellyflopped over to a completely different section of IT needs and I am middle-aged. Partly, I think I was motivated (or anti-motivated) because I did not want to go through another round of what I call "disposable learning" at my last job, wherein I would learn something completely ephemeral and not carry any of it forward five years later.
In retrospect, I believe my then-boss was practicing on some scheduling platforms that would appear in his next job. We had one ticketing/scheduling/org conglomerate, and then the whole organization was scheduled to hit something else in nine months, but he wanted to try out this thing in the meantime, even though we would get four months with it. Also more frameworky business. Just churn churn churn.
In retrospect, I believe my then-boss was practicing on some scheduling platforms that would appear in his next job. We had one ticketing/scheduling/org conglomerate, and then the whole organization was scheduled to hit something else in nine months, but he wanted to try out this thing in the meantime, even though we would get four months with it. Also more frameworky business. Just churn churn churn.
> “If you could pinpoint a mechanism which is underlying the subjective evaluation of reward and cost, and use a modern technique that could manipulate it, either psychiatrically or with biofeedback, patients may be able to activate their circuits correctly,” Friedman says.
In my experience there tends to be someone, somewhere, who figured this out a long time ago and is doing some action that manipulates this mechanism, but because it's cloaked in archaic or (at least quasi) religious language it will be dismissed and we'll have to put up with years of scientists fumbling around to recreate it. Mindfulness meditation is probably the latest example.
NIH isn't something that only affects programmers.
In my experience there tends to be someone, somewhere, who figured this out a long time ago and is doing some action that manipulates this mechanism, but because it's cloaked in archaic or (at least quasi) religious language it will be dismissed and we'll have to put up with years of scientists fumbling around to recreate it. Mindfulness meditation is probably the latest example.
NIH isn't something that only affects programmers.
I appreciate the scientific research that went into this, as I have seen family members become very uninterested in thinking deeply in order to be able to understand current events.
I always assumed that the waning desire to learn new things in old age was simply a function of the cost-benefit analysis. If you are 20 years old and learn something new, you benefit from it for 60 years or so. But if you're 75 and considering learning that same new thing, you would benefit from that knowledge for a much shorter period of time.
I wonder how much of the decline in motivation is tied to this commonsensical explanation, and how much is related to the scientific process that the researchers observed in mice.
I always assumed that the waning desire to learn new things in old age was simply a function of the cost-benefit analysis. If you are 20 years old and learn something new, you benefit from it for 60 years or so. But if you're 75 and considering learning that same new thing, you would benefit from that knowledge for a much shorter period of time.
I wonder how much of the decline in motivation is tied to this commonsensical explanation, and how much is related to the scientific process that the researchers observed in mice.
I think utility is surely a significant factor in motivating humans to learn some topics. If you're retired, you're unlikely to take much interest in mastering Jira or getting CPA certification or a six sigma belt — skills you'll never use. Likewise, if future prospects for using a skill seem more limited with age, you're very likely to be less inclined to pursue means to such ends.
Or perhaps mice just relish sugar water less as their taste buds fade with age.
Or perhaps mice just relish sugar water less as their taste buds fade with age.
We don't need any scientist to explain why we don't want to learn as we age. The simple reason is we have too much responsibilities as an adult. As an adult, we have to:
- Take care for the kids
- Take care for our partners.
- Take care for our job
- Cooking and cleaning the house every day.
In order to learn something we have to focus, imagine getting disturb every 15 minutes because of our responsibilities above. We will give up learning soon.
Actually I found out the when I grow up, my thinking ability getting better than when I was a child.
In order to learn something we have to focus, imagine getting disturb every 15 minutes because of our responsibilities above. We will give up learning soon.
Actually I found out the when I grow up, my thinking ability getting better than when I was a child.
> The simple reason is we have too much responsibilities as an adult.
I don’t think it is that simple. I spend a lot of time in communities of people of leisure. Not millionaire celebrities, but just people who were savvy with saving and investing, and able to retire already in their 30s and spend the rest of their days on a tropical beach somewhere. These people have almost no responsibilities, but as they get older many lose all interest in acquiring new skills, even learning the local language or a new hobby.
With regard to learning’s interaction with “responsible adult life”, the cynic in me wonders if the situation is the reverse: learning new skills is a way to display mating behavior in young adulthood, and once people acquire a spouse and start a family, there is less need for going through the motions of showing one is an intelligent mate.
I don’t think it is that simple. I spend a lot of time in communities of people of leisure. Not millionaire celebrities, but just people who were savvy with saving and investing, and able to retire already in their 30s and spend the rest of their days on a tropical beach somewhere. These people have almost no responsibilities, but as they get older many lose all interest in acquiring new skills, even learning the local language or a new hobby.
With regard to learning’s interaction with “responsible adult life”, the cynic in me wonders if the situation is the reverse: learning new skills is a way to display mating behavior in young adulthood, and once people acquire a spouse and start a family, there is less need for going through the motions of showing one is an intelligent mate.
We need scientists to deconvolve the "more responsibilities" bit from a physical change inside the brain. It is easy to imagine that both are occuring at the same time. But it is difficult to prove this since they both confound the effect of the other.
For those who have commented "I am/this other person is not like that, note that the article (MIT Press release actually) begins by saying "As people age, they often lose their motivation to learn new things or engage in everyday activities." (emphasis mine)
I think HN selects for people who do not fit into this demographic. Also note that there could be other consequential results earlier in the lives of people who exhibit this phenomenon.
I think HN selects for people who do not fit into this demographic. Also note that there could be other consequential results earlier in the lives of people who exhibit this phenomenon.
My grandma went to university lectures until she approached the age of 90, and the only thing holding her back now is her bad ear and bad leg. The mind is a wonderful organ.
If you live in Georgia, USA, and you're 62 or older, you can attend college classes for free.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/2016/01/04/senior-citize...
At 59 it gives me something to look forward to in a few years.
I am no expert, but it seems that keyword here is "motivation" and motivation can be tricky. Learning has two dimensions in my personal view. Desire to know and habit to learn. Desire to learn new things has emotional motivation and is complex system dependent on social validation or abstract pleasure. I am more in camp of abstract pleasure my self.
in contrast to everybody who seems to be wanting to learn more by age, i can really feel like my brain is getting calcified.
Things used to be more of a mystery for me and learning would always seem like an way to open things up. There also was a naive undertone of a feeling that the things i am learning will greatly benefit me work wise or that learning howto solder on a mod-chip on a ps1 would make me smarter.
I now view learning much more differently and i find many subjects really boring to learn and not useful at all.
I also know my limits and abilities now when i am 30 much better than when i was 13-25. Before i felt like there was a chance i could be really good at learning something, or that i had some hidden abilities yet to be discovered. But i no know way too well thats not the case.
I much more enjoy simpel things in life now, like eating good food and being with friends. The fire of learning has left me, maybe a bit too early(30) but i already know enough to live the life i want.
Things used to be more of a mystery for me and learning would always seem like an way to open things up. There also was a naive undertone of a feeling that the things i am learning will greatly benefit me work wise or that learning howto solder on a mod-chip on a ps1 would make me smarter.
I now view learning much more differently and i find many subjects really boring to learn and not useful at all.
I also know my limits and abilities now when i am 30 much better than when i was 13-25. Before i felt like there was a chance i could be really good at learning something, or that i had some hidden abilities yet to be discovered. But i no know way too well thats not the case.
I much more enjoy simpel things in life now, like eating good food and being with friends. The fire of learning has left me, maybe a bit too early(30) but i already know enough to live the life i want.
Exact same boat here. My motivation died around 30 (34 now) once I realized I wasn't going to make any kind of impact on humanity. So now it's harder and harder to answer the question of "what's the point?". Whereas, drinks with friends or walks by the sea never seem to give rise to that question in the first place.
So even though I still like to read about interesting things, once any initial curiosity has been satisfied, I'm out, there is no depth to the learning anymore, and soon enough you forget it all anyway.
So even though I still like to read about interesting things, once any initial curiosity has been satisfied, I'm out, there is no depth to the learning anymore, and soon enough you forget it all anyway.
> My motivation died around 30 (34 now) once I realized I wasn't going to make any kind of impact on humanity.
Seeing your confidence in that outlook, if you permit me an intrusion, I'd go so far as to say, you probably could say "decided" instead of "realized" and it would be accurate.
There are decades ahead for most people at that age. And instead of starting from scratch like an infant, you already have a lot of things going for you. If you were a close friend, I'd have badgered you relentlessly to believe in yourself. I hope as an internet stranger, I can plant a seed of belief in your mind.
Most people are capable of far more than they believe. Good luck!
Seeing your confidence in that outlook, if you permit me an intrusion, I'd go so far as to say, you probably could say "decided" instead of "realized" and it would be accurate.
There are decades ahead for most people at that age. And instead of starting from scratch like an infant, you already have a lot of things going for you. If you were a close friend, I'd have badgered you relentlessly to believe in yourself. I hope as an internet stranger, I can plant a seed of belief in your mind.
Most people are capable of far more than they believe. Good luck!
Hey nmlnn. Thanks for posting this. I'm a shy past 24, and I came to the same conclusion. Nothing matters, we're all small and insignificant-pale-blue-dot-and-all-that. I also lose interest once the shininess and allure wears off. This mindset can be freeing; nothing matters so do what makes you happy. The closest answer I've got is to work a basic job at Costco/Trader Joe's/etc. and chill through life, while focusing on simple pleasures like drinks with friends, etc.
many things also dont make sense to learn now when i have a decent salary.
Why should i learn howto setup a raspberry pi with a bunch of stuff, when i can just buy commercial products thats does the same things and much better?
If i dont want to create something unique thats not on the market of course. But then i use up all my thinking and creativity at work and i have run out of ideas to create truly unique things.
Also the time it takes to learn and make things is too valuable for me, i rather spend that time on interacting with other people.
Why should i learn howto setup a raspberry pi with a bunch of stuff, when i can just buy commercial products thats does the same things and much better?
If i dont want to create something unique thats not on the market of course. But then i use up all my thinking and creativity at work and i have run out of ideas to create truly unique things.
Also the time it takes to learn and make things is too valuable for me, i rather spend that time on interacting with other people.
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As you get older, there’s literally a pile somewhere in the house, metaphorically the pile of broken dreams or pile of unfinished projects. The wish to learn something else is additive to the pile, probably the definition of the root of procrastination. Nothing to do with decline but more with anxiety.
When you learn new skills your old skills slowly degrade. For young people it doesn't matter because they dont have old skills, but for me I have found often I just end up as half-good at the old and new skills, so now choose carefully.
47. I want to be effective. Now. Time is not on my side. If the tech I learned and mastered gets me from point A to B, and the users love the results...that's all I need.
Read Joel Spolsky's "Fire and Motion" if you have concerns.
Read Joel Spolsky's "Fire and Motion" if you have concerns.
At the time Spolsky was writing that he was creating a desktop application in VB6 and C++ (CityDesk). Some times you really do need to move on.
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Great, maybe next they can explain why kids' motivation to learn declines when they go to school.
"Stay hungry. Stay foolish" is an attempt to counteract this tendency
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... in mice.
Yeah the title is misleading and the results are probably not going to replicate in humans. But surprisingly the comments on this post are really interesting and good quality.
I think mice don't have to manage retirement accounts, learn specialty skills, or deal with stresses of being laid off.
I get that mice have similar dna, but this is not as easy as just saying "mice disinterested after doing the same thing for 5 years means people don't like learning later!"
I get that mice have similar dna, but this is not as easy as just saying "mice disinterested after doing the same thing for 5 years means people don't like learning later!"
The correlation between mice and human is something that has been studied ad infinitum by scientists, with many models that allow them to determine the confidence levels and general relevance and similarities between the two species for a particular study. So, yeah, as you said it's "not as easy" but definitely not something you can casually dismiss either just because mice don't have mortgages.
I'm 46 and started building web sites in 1995.
I think as I grow older I want to specialize rather than chase the latest new shiny technology.
That doesn't mean I don't want to learn. It means I want to learn to be better at what I already know.
I think as I grow older I want to specialize rather than chase the latest new shiny technology.
That doesn't mean I don't want to learn. It means I want to learn to be better at what I already know.
One rarely sees mice in IT. And neither Maslow had mice in mind when he developed his theory of motivation.
EDIT: Okay, apparently I need to clarify the statement. Humans have so much more possibilities to learn and motivate themselves than a mouse that it really makes no sense to draw conclusions about human behavior from the experiment. You probably remember that already a few brain researchers have dared the balancing act from basic research to show business with a few colored pictures of brain activity, and even got entangled in legal philosophical debates. Sure, you can win an audience and impress your sponsors, but this is not the actual scientific work.
EDIT: Okay, apparently I need to clarify the statement. Humans have so much more possibilities to learn and motivate themselves than a mouse that it really makes no sense to draw conclusions about human behavior from the experiment. You probably remember that already a few brain researchers have dared the balancing act from basic research to show business with a few colored pictures of brain activity, and even got entangled in legal philosophical debates. Sure, you can win an audience and impress your sponsors, but this is not the actual scientific work.
It seems that I am not the only one who sees a significant contradiction between reality and the conclusions from the experiment.
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"You are a product of your environment" --Clement Stone (b. 1902) https://archive.is/yPhyn
All my freetime dissappeared and what I have is monopolized by existing obligations and projects. Work is too scattered to allow the necessary focus to learn.
My mom, 75, got her degree in law 10 yrs ago being the gramma around a bunch of college teenagers. Passed the bar exam after 5 attempts and now works at a Ngo representing women in need to get pro bono divorce and custody from their wife-beating husbands.
Apparently motivation to learn increases with age in my family. I think maybe as a way to defeat death or something.