Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent(devonzuegel.com)
devonzuegel.com
Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent
https://devonzuegel.com/post/remote-work-will-break-the-us-monopoly-on-talent
533 comments
On the topic of diploma - I get the sense this is not exactly true for FAANG
No diploma here - still have recruiters from at least 3 of the 5 messaging me.
Edit: downvoters, care to explain a little? Why would they waste their time on me if they weren't interested in me working there?
Edit: downvoters, care to explain a little? Why would they waste their time on me if they weren't interested in me working there?
Do you / have you ever worked at one?
I used to work at Google/DeepMind and don't remember anyone even asking about it during the original interview process. (I did not go to uni)
I have worked for FAANG without a diploma. While it is rare, you can definitely do it if you grind enough leet code :D
I've interviewed at Google twice - passed once, declined continuing the process due to not being super interested in the product. I've declined interviewing at Facebook/Amazon. I haven't talked with Netflix nor Apple. I have not worked for one, but have never gotten any indication that the lack of diploma would be a problem. I gather that a decade of professional experience makes the lack of diploma irrelevant.
As best as I can tell the only time it has hurt me is when I tried to emigrate out of the US and was unable to as some countries require a degree to get a work visa, even with a job offer.
As best as I can tell the only time it has hurt me is when I tried to emigrate out of the US and was unable to as some countries require a degree to get a work visa, even with a job offer.
My anecdotal data is that I went really far in the process with a FAANG, got a verbal offer, and it was rescinded (never got the official offer). I always suspected it was due to lack of a degree.
And no one explicitly ever asked, but they did ask for a rather detailed work/education history, and I never claimed to have one.
I really suspect that they SAY they don't care if you have a degree or not, but at the end of the day I think they do.
And no one explicitly ever asked, but they did ask for a rather detailed work/education history, and I never claimed to have one.
I really suspect that they SAY they don't care if you have a degree or not, but at the end of the day I think they do.
>My anecdotal data is that I went really far in the process with a FAANG, got a verbal offer, and it was rescinded (never got the official offer). I always suspected it was due to lack of a degree.
If your lack of degree was a dealbreaker, they wouldn't go with the interview process to completion. It makes zero sense to waste time and resources on a candidate that you already determined you aren't going to hire. My team had to interview 50+ people just to fill a couple of positions, and every interview is taking away from precious time that could have been spent working on the product. Wasting our time interviewing someone we won't hire due to a lack of degree makes no sense.
Not only it would be wasting our own time, we would also be wasting the candidate's time, and all of it for exactly zero gain. There is no grand conspiracy where FAANG companies interview candidates with no degrees all the way till the end, and then drop them due to the lack of degree, it is just illogical all around.
Basically, if you got an interview, and especially if you got to the onsite rounds, nothing that is on your resume can disqualify you at this point.
If your lack of degree was a dealbreaker, they wouldn't go with the interview process to completion. It makes zero sense to waste time and resources on a candidate that you already determined you aren't going to hire. My team had to interview 50+ people just to fill a couple of positions, and every interview is taking away from precious time that could have been spent working on the product. Wasting our time interviewing someone we won't hire due to a lack of degree makes no sense.
Not only it would be wasting our own time, we would also be wasting the candidate's time, and all of it for exactly zero gain. There is no grand conspiracy where FAANG companies interview candidates with no degrees all the way till the end, and then drop them due to the lack of degree, it is just illogical all around.
Basically, if you got an interview, and especially if you got to the onsite rounds, nothing that is on your resume can disqualify you at this point.
I appreciated your comment. I want to believe what you are saying... but at the end of the day none of the people that I interviewed with were the final deciding factor in whether I was offered the role or not. This was decided by a hiring committee. I might be giving away which company this was at this point, I don't know if this is how it's done at other large companies.
The thing is, I was asked to provide certain details after my interview process, like an extremely detailed chronology of my education and work history, explain every single gap greater than 3 weeks, etc. etc.
The fact that this all happened after I rocked my interviews (which was the feedback provided via the recruiter) tells me that yes, it's possible that they wasted everyone's time to interview me and potentially disqualified me on some kind of technicality.
It was an odd experience altogether. I was even invited to spend an afternoon with someone on the team after getting the verbal Ok. Either way, it was interesting experience, but pretty unpleasant through and through. In hindsight, I'm quite glad I didn't get the job, but in principal I didn't like the way the process went.
The thing is, I was asked to provide certain details after my interview process, like an extremely detailed chronology of my education and work history, explain every single gap greater than 3 weeks, etc. etc.
The fact that this all happened after I rocked my interviews (which was the feedback provided via the recruiter) tells me that yes, it's possible that they wasted everyone's time to interview me and potentially disqualified me on some kind of technicality.
It was an odd experience altogether. I was even invited to spend an afternoon with someone on the team after getting the verbal Ok. Either way, it was interesting experience, but pretty unpleasant through and through. In hindsight, I'm quite glad I didn't get the job, but in principal I didn't like the way the process went.
> I might be giving away which company this was at this point, I don't know if this is how it's done at other large companies.
Yes, you are, it sounds like Google, and I had the same experience with them, except I had a degree.
> I rocked my interviews (which was the feedback provided via the recruiter)
A lot of times, recruiters aren't at liberty to provide truthful and direct feedback. Also, you might have done well overall, but one of the interviewers tanked you. It all depends. You might have gotten a good signal (but not strong on all of them, just "good enough") from all your interviews except one, and on that one you got a strongly negative one. Hiring committee looks at this combination of signals and decides "no". This is really common.
Hiring a bad candidate and having to fire them later is extremely expensive, so the interview process prioritizes decreasing false positives rather than false negatives. Which means that unless they are absolutely certain you are a good fit, it is a pass. But I can pretty much guarantee you that if you got to onsites and then later got declined by the hiring committee, it wasn't your lack of degree that got you passed over.
Yes, you are, it sounds like Google, and I had the same experience with them, except I had a degree.
> I rocked my interviews (which was the feedback provided via the recruiter)
A lot of times, recruiters aren't at liberty to provide truthful and direct feedback. Also, you might have done well overall, but one of the interviewers tanked you. It all depends. You might have gotten a good signal (but not strong on all of them, just "good enough") from all your interviews except one, and on that one you got a strongly negative one. Hiring committee looks at this combination of signals and decides "no". This is really common.
Hiring a bad candidate and having to fire them later is extremely expensive, so the interview process prioritizes decreasing false positives rather than false negatives. Which means that unless they are absolutely certain you are a good fit, it is a pass. But I can pretty much guarantee you that if you got to onsites and then later got declined by the hiring committee, it wasn't your lack of degree that got you passed over.
Thanks for the feedback and context, really appreciate it!
Was it in California and what year was it? It's well known in the valley recruiters from various companies put the kibosh on many offers to prevent talent from moving around. There were some big lawsuits on it.
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I am working at one now (kind of, since MSFT doesn't really make it into the abbreviation), and one of the brightest senior engineers on my team had no degree whatsoever, just a high-school diploma (using past tense, because he left for another company a couple of years ago). I also have a bunch of friends who currently work Google (some from college, some former colleagues) and a few at FB, and all of them know at least one coworker without a college degree.
And when our team was recruiting experienced candidates (5-10 years or more), at no point we ever cared about their degree or lack thereof (aside from some specialized research positions that typically require graduate degrees). For entry level though, yeah, if you are in your early 20s without much industry experience, it is gonna be much tougher to get hired without a degree.
And when our team was recruiting experienced candidates (5-10 years or more), at no point we ever cared about their degree or lack thereof (aside from some specialized research positions that typically require graduate degrees). For entry level though, yeah, if you are in your early 20s without much industry experience, it is gonna be much tougher to get hired without a degree.
It's getting harder. I have a friend who worked at MSFT out of high school >10 years ago, and was told several years in that he could never be promoted beyond his current level without a degree. Decided to take a couple years off to get a degree in something random (theology) and when he applied for his old job, now +BA, was told he needed a CS degree to be qualified for it.
Was your friend in engineering? And what kind of level was your friend shooting for? Because yeah, if you are shooting for a director or a partner level position, you better have a degree. But for a regular senior engineer position? Not at all.
Also, i don't know when your friend tried to get re-hired and at which level. The whole "we don't care as much about degrees anymore" is a fairly recent thing, I would say 5 or so years. And of course, if your friend only worked at MSFT for a few years, then left to do school, and then tried to come back, they would be probably still shooting for a close-to-entry level position, not a senior. And entry-level without a degree or something else to compensate for it is going to be really tough. Normally it is compensated by either years of experience or something else (side projects, major open-source contribs, etc.), hence why I never saw someone without a degree at entry-level, but plenty who are senior engineers.
Also, i don't know when your friend tried to get re-hired and at which level. The whole "we don't care as much about degrees anymore" is a fairly recent thing, I would say 5 or so years. And of course, if your friend only worked at MSFT for a few years, then left to do school, and then tried to come back, they would be probably still shooting for a close-to-entry level position, not a senior. And entry-level without a degree or something else to compensate for it is going to be really tough. Normally it is compensated by either years of experience or something else (side projects, major open-source contribs, etc.), hence why I never saw someone without a degree at entry-level, but plenty who are senior engineers.
Working at one for over a decade now. I've got no degree. Both people on my team and in adjacent team without degrees. Also many people with super-interesting degrees nothing to do with CS.
So, yes, you can get hired at FAANG & friends without a CS degree.
But: I would suggest to always read that as "absolutely go for it, even if you didn't get a degree", not "skip getting a degree, it doesn't make a difference".
So, yes, you can get hired at FAANG & friends without a CS degree.
But: I would suggest to always read that as "absolutely go for it, even if you didn't get a degree", not "skip getting a degree, it doesn't make a difference".
I've worked at both Amazon and Microsoft. I'm not even an HS graduate. I worked my way in through contract gigs until I was able to get an FTE role. After the first one, moving to another place was no big deal. I was asked about it by HR only to make sure their records were correct and never heard of it again.
Any tips on getting the first one? How was your algorithms prep?
Yeah, I've heard about a classist element in Europe that might make the path I took unlikely. I dropped out of college, toiled in the service industry for 10 years, got sick of it, went to code school, got a tech job and 6 years later earn $130k. Still no degree. Is it true you can't do that there or is that just a stereotype?
You can, but in France you would have to go freelance, as I did.
There would be no way to charge what I make if I were an employee. In fact, most companies would not give me the level of responsability I had as a junior freelance, even today.
And yet, it's better in IT than in any other field. You already make more money, and the requirements are relaxed compared to other sectors.
I some countries, like the UK (well, brexited now), it can be better. But you'll also most likely be working for a bank.
There would be no way to charge what I make if I were an employee. In fact, most companies would not give me the level of responsability I had as a junior freelance, even today.
And yet, it's better in IT than in any other field. You already make more money, and the requirements are relaxed compared to other sectors.
I some countries, like the UK (well, brexited now), it can be better. But you'll also most likely be working for a bank.
True, that. You can make good money as a dev in finance here in London. Not as much as in the US, but better than most of Europe.
How much time do you spend looking for contracts vs working for Freelance?
I haven't spend any time looking for contracts for a decade. Once I got the ball rolling, work came to me.
I think the hard part as a freelancer is to start. Once people know about you, there is such a high demand for devs that people will come to you. They have problems to solve, and it's not that easy to find somebody you know will solve them.
I think the hard part as a freelancer is to start. Once people know about you, there is such a high demand for devs that people will come to you. They have problems to solve, and it's not that easy to find somebody you know will solve them.
Europe is very diverse in customs and practices. In certain European countries credentialism is not really that big of a deal. In some others it's really uptight.
Your example is unlikely in Europe, but the importance of the degree depends on the type of company. For banks or older industrial companies, a degree is mandatory. Contacts/networks also play a part and can compensate weaker degrees.
I started a conversation with a visiting EU PhD and asked about programming languages. In a very good smelling way, he avoided the question. Apparently it is "blue collar" work to do actual programming? This one PhD did zero actual programming, apparently.
It's slowly changing, but yeah, coding is not considered a high status job here.
Now, it's better though, it's not considered a low status job anymore :)
Now, it's better though, it's not considered a low status job anymore :)
No joke. I lived in the US for a while, but I am from Eastern Europe, and so are my parents. Back in high school about a decade ago, I decided that I want to do either an engineering degree or a CS degree. I got a reaction from my parents that was the opposite of what most of my US peers would have expected to get. For context, we have already been living in the US for quite a bit at that point.
Even my parents, who are neither doctors or lawyers themselves, considered engineering/CS to be a grunt and pretty much blue-collar work (not that there is anything wrong with blue collar work at all, but I was not going to pick that fight with my parents at the time when I lived with them). And even now, once they know how much software devs can actually get paid in the US, the only thing that's changed is that they stopped pestering me about it. But I definitely took a note of how when the conversations with their friends or other relatives go, my parents still try to avoid mentioning what I studied or what I do as my career (aside from namedropping the company names, because apparently big US corps carry some weight with those people). All while also letting me know every single time how awesome their friends' son or daughter is, because they are a doctor or a lawyer. /rantover
I cannot understate how good it feels to me in the US in this aspect, because it feels like most people here on average absolutely don't care which path you took and don't even question it. Sure, some are still judgemental, and some of them still assign weight to the outcomes you got. But I would rather get some weight assigned to the outcomes I got, as opposed to the same weight being assigned to some stupid bs like "oh, your degree isn't of the right class of respect, so no matter what you do, you ain't going to be as much of a respected person as a doctor/lawyer". Just the entire concept of "respectable" degrees makes me feel a certain kind of way that I absolutely hate. If you want to talk about degrees based on any measurable metric, you are welcome to. But "respectability" of a degree is not measurable, and is the most snotty bs that is way too commonplace outside of the US. I had some friends from SK (so not even the same continent as EU), and they echoed fairly similar sentiments in regards to the cultural sentiment about engineers/tech workers in their country.
And the thing is, I cannot even really blame my parents, because it isn't just them, it is pretty much what the majority there believes.
Even my parents, who are neither doctors or lawyers themselves, considered engineering/CS to be a grunt and pretty much blue-collar work (not that there is anything wrong with blue collar work at all, but I was not going to pick that fight with my parents at the time when I lived with them). And even now, once they know how much software devs can actually get paid in the US, the only thing that's changed is that they stopped pestering me about it. But I definitely took a note of how when the conversations with their friends or other relatives go, my parents still try to avoid mentioning what I studied or what I do as my career (aside from namedropping the company names, because apparently big US corps carry some weight with those people). All while also letting me know every single time how awesome their friends' son or daughter is, because they are a doctor or a lawyer. /rantover
I cannot understate how good it feels to me in the US in this aspect, because it feels like most people here on average absolutely don't care which path you took and don't even question it. Sure, some are still judgemental, and some of them still assign weight to the outcomes you got. But I would rather get some weight assigned to the outcomes I got, as opposed to the same weight being assigned to some stupid bs like "oh, your degree isn't of the right class of respect, so no matter what you do, you ain't going to be as much of a respected person as a doctor/lawyer". Just the entire concept of "respectable" degrees makes me feel a certain kind of way that I absolutely hate. If you want to talk about degrees based on any measurable metric, you are welcome to. But "respectability" of a degree is not measurable, and is the most snotty bs that is way too commonplace outside of the US. I had some friends from SK (so not even the same continent as EU), and they echoed fairly similar sentiments in regards to the cultural sentiment about engineers/tech workers in their country.
And the thing is, I cannot even really blame my parents, because it isn't just them, it is pretty much what the majority there believes.
> Apparently it is "blue collar" work to do actual programming?
Let’s not build up cultural myths from a passing conversation. Of course there are PhDs in Europe who code and code very well. There are also ones who don’t. Was the PhD even in a Computer Science related field?
And not to offend you, but many people have better things to do than talk about programing languages. Maybe the visiting PhD had more interesting topics on their mind?
Let’s not build up cultural myths from a passing conversation. Of course there are PhDs in Europe who code and code very well. There are also ones who don’t. Was the PhD even in a Computer Science related field?
And not to offend you, but many people have better things to do than talk about programing languages. Maybe the visiting PhD had more interesting topics on their mind?
transportation modelling, IIR.. he was from Spain
A surprising amount of math/science/engineering types still seem to consider actually programming their models and and such to be the grunt work, sometimes even handed off to someone else. Seems like a terribly inefficient way to work.
Seems like a terribly inefficient way to work.
Yes and no. Learning the intricacies of your particular domain as well as high performance computing is massive task. I used to work as that "someone else", and on the whole I think it was a good way to split the work. They gave me slow python/matlab code that solved a hard problem in a very clever way, and I made run in reasonable amount of time using a reasonable amount of memory etc. I will never know as much about thermodynamics as the scientist, and they don't have the time to learn the best way to make software run really fast.
Yes and no. Learning the intricacies of your particular domain as well as high performance computing is massive task. I used to work as that "someone else", and on the whole I think it was a good way to split the work. They gave me slow python/matlab code that solved a hard problem in a very clever way, and I made run in reasonable amount of time using a reasonable amount of memory etc. I will never know as much about thermodynamics as the scientist, and they don't have the time to learn the best way to make software run really fast.
I've spent the last few years in Oxford with a bunch of PhDs and they all programmed. Those who didn't program were interested in programming & I taught a couple at a community organised code bootcamp. I'm now living next to Stanford and the same thing happened again. This isn't just traditional STEM either but economics and history students. Definitely anecdotal but I expect this is more common than those who don't program, especially as the social sciences and research-based humanities move towards programming. Hell, History degrees at Oxford now have the option of learning how to use databases to store and query information with SQL.
> community organised code bootcamp
yes! :D
yes! :D
> Hell, History degrees at Oxford now have the option of learning how to use databases to store and query information with SQL.
We should for real start teaching basics of query languages in high school. Just enough to demystify the subject for when "tech-averse" folks pragmatically need it for their profession
I've suffered emotionally observing people from non-tech areas toiling with what, to us, are rocks and sticks. Folks that would undoubtedly benefit majorly from learning a tool do not do it because they just have never had any exposure to the principles behind them
We can't fix people's interest in tech being low - we can introduce them to simple helpful concepts early on so they are more accepting of proper tools for complex jobs
Did this sound too exclusivist or tech-centric arrogant? I didn't mean to. I'm really interested in why some things like version control aren't used across all industries and I suspect it has to do with fear of command lines and inspection tools
We should for real start teaching basics of query languages in high school. Just enough to demystify the subject for when "tech-averse" folks pragmatically need it for their profession
I've suffered emotionally observing people from non-tech areas toiling with what, to us, are rocks and sticks. Folks that would undoubtedly benefit majorly from learning a tool do not do it because they just have never had any exposure to the principles behind them
We can't fix people's interest in tech being low - we can introduce them to simple helpful concepts early on so they are more accepting of proper tools for complex jobs
Did this sound too exclusivist or tech-centric arrogant? I didn't mean to. I'm really interested in why some things like version control aren't used across all industries and I suspect it has to do with fear of command lines and inspection tools
I don't know much about this, but apparently Oxford and Cambridge have a history of taking graduates with humanities degrees (i.e, not anything STEM) and training them in computer science and programming. Other students who end up working for tech companies in the UK come from Imperial College or a school where they were in a STEM discipline.
From what I can tell, in Germany at least, the requirement for a lot of dev jobs tends to be "a degree and experience" or "software specific degree and an internship". If you have a science degree of some sort, and a few years of industry experience, then you should be good. Your situation might be tricky.
I've walked a fairly similar path as you did (to an extent, I did get into code and systems as a teenager, but I've got little to no formal engineering education and drifted away from code for a decade) and getting decent opportunities is nearly impossible unless you're in Paris and pretty good at networking. Most of the work available is menial, with little prospects and pays the median salary (which is trash by EU standards, much less US).
The point isn’t that existing companies in the US or wherever will lose talent, but that the existing companies might retain or even gain talent, and that the workers will reside in locales other than the US. Your points seem to be in favor of the author’s argument that the importance of physically residing in the US will decrease, and that there is an opportunity for other locales/governments to attract remote workers.
The parent's premise is that it will make the US more powerful economically and make its tech companies more dominant. Which is exactly what it will do.
The local tech labor supply will go to work for US corporations, which pay better than most everyone else. That will cement the US hegemony globally in tech (the sole major exception being domestic China, and to a far lesser extent domestic Russia). The US tech juggernaut will buy up the world's talent without having to plant expensive offices everywhere; that will occupy the talent pool and reduce competition to US tech.
The local tech labor supply will go to work for US corporations, which pay better than most everyone else. That will cement the US hegemony globally in tech (the sole major exception being domestic China, and to a far lesser extent domestic Russia). The US tech juggernaut will buy up the world's talent without having to plant expensive offices everywhere; that will occupy the talent pool and reduce competition to US tech.
It goes both ways: local talent will learn from the biggest companies in the world without having to leave, meaning their know how can be turned to local entities as well.
For the pay, eventually it settles down as more and more companies try to see what they can get away with. US companies won’t be paying boatloads of money eternally (they were already resorting to offshoring to skimp) and local companies will have to align to get people to work for them.
For the pay, eventually it settles down as more and more companies try to see what they can get away with. US companies won’t be paying boatloads of money eternally (they were already resorting to offshoring to skimp) and local companies will have to align to get people to work for them.
> It goes both ways: local talent will learn from the biggest companies in the world without having to leave, meaning their know how can be turned to local entities as well.
It really doesn't. You end up with a whole segment of engineers that effectively become invisible to the local tech scene, because they are way above the local rates. Local companies are, basically, a waste of time for them.
Also, keep in mind that working for a foreign subsidiary opens up many additional visa to someone who wants to relocate to the US main office. So a "first remote" approach might actually accelerate brain drain in the long run.
It really doesn't. You end up with a whole segment of engineers that effectively become invisible to the local tech scene, because they are way above the local rates. Local companies are, basically, a waste of time for them.
Also, keep in mind that working for a foreign subsidiary opens up many additional visa to someone who wants to relocate to the US main office. So a "first remote" approach might actually accelerate brain drain in the long run.
Unfortunately I agree with this - I'm currently doing some work in tech across sub-saharan Africa and what we're seeing is that local devs from Cameroon to Kenya to Tunisia (okay not sub-saharan but we happen to have an office there) who are any good are now working on the global marketplace and not available to local companies with rare exceptions (e.g. junior who haven't figured out how to compete globally yet or happen to both have the preference to work in person and don't want to move away).
It's a valid point, but it's not the whole story. When there is too much of a gap between the local scene and the global scene, there is an isolation effect.
But it doesn't mean these engineers live in their remote bubble. There will be a halo effect of showing the way to local talent, we've seen when subcontracting html integration to a remote shop. Once the contract and legal framing was established, it was easier for us to ask their junior member to do administration tasks or other basic data entry tasks.
The other path is for these higher level engineers to move directly to high level positions in local firm. You'll see a junior engineer by EU standards move to a CTO like position in a local company or startup.
All in all, I think the local part still tremendously benefits from having highly competent remote workers.
But it doesn't mean these engineers live in their remote bubble. There will be a halo effect of showing the way to local talent, we've seen when subcontracting html integration to a remote shop. Once the contract and legal framing was established, it was easier for us to ask their junior member to do administration tasks or other basic data entry tasks.
The other path is for these higher level engineers to move directly to high level positions in local firm. You'll see a junior engineer by EU standards move to a CTO like position in a local company or startup.
All in all, I think the local part still tremendously benefits from having highly competent remote workers.
> But it doesn't mean these engineers live in their remote bubble.
They kinda do. Mentoring, for instance, will happen with employees of the US corp. You'll effectively have the best devs in the foreign country mentoring early career Americans at HQ.
> The other path is for these higher level engineers to move directly to high level positions in local firm. You'll see a junior engineer by EU standards move to a CTO like position in a local company or startup.
Does that actually happens? I mean, I can see that a senior engineer at FAANG matches the level of some local companies CTO, but will these local businesses really give out such a role to an engineer barely in his 30's? That's of course if he hasn't transferred to HQ yet...
They kinda do. Mentoring, for instance, will happen with employees of the US corp. You'll effectively have the best devs in the foreign country mentoring early career Americans at HQ.
> The other path is for these higher level engineers to move directly to high level positions in local firm. You'll see a junior engineer by EU standards move to a CTO like position in a local company or startup.
Does that actually happens? I mean, I can see that a senior engineer at FAANG matches the level of some local companies CTO, but will these local businesses really give out such a role to an engineer barely in his 30's? That's of course if he hasn't transferred to HQ yet...
> It really doesn't. You end up with a whole segment of engineers that effectively become invisible to the local tech scene, because they are way above the local rates.
If remote salaries will be significantly higher than local ones many governments will be tempted to raise/introduce taxes on foreign income (and in authoritarian ones it is easy to implement). Since cross-border payments in most countries are closely monitored it would be not hard to enforce. Which in turn would make local jobs more attractive in comparison.
If remote salaries will be significantly higher than local ones many governments will be tempted to raise/introduce taxes on foreign income (and in authoritarian ones it is easy to implement). Since cross-border payments in most countries are closely monitored it would be not hard to enforce. Which in turn would make local jobs more attractive in comparison.
> many governments will be tempted to raise/introduce taxes on foreign income [...] Which in turn would make local jobs more attractive in comparison.
That's a double edged sword. Because your top performers are now seeing the local government trying to fleece them and it just makes coming to the US even more attractive.
It would also be a red flag for anyone in the country, to be fair. Instead of looking at what's wrong with the countries' tech ecosystem and fixing it to help local companies innovate and compete, they just rent-seek successful companies.
That's a double edged sword. Because your top performers are now seeing the local government trying to fleece them and it just makes coming to the US even more attractive.
It would also be a red flag for anyone in the country, to be fair. Instead of looking at what's wrong with the countries' tech ecosystem and fixing it to help local companies innovate and compete, they just rent-seek successful companies.
Argentina did that, their brain drain was INSANE, we had thousands immigrate to Uruguay.
The holdovers jump through all kind of hoops, many involving crypto.
The holdovers jump through all kind of hoops, many involving crypto.
The salary gap does decrease, here in Uruguay companies are paying what would have been thought of as insane just a few years ago (still 50% below US rates, but way way higher any other job), and we're getting thousands of people immigrating from all over Latin America and even Spain.
It does make providing to local companies much less desirable.
It does make providing to local companies much less desirable.
> it will make the US more powerful economically and make its tech companies more dominant. Which is exactly what it will do.
Why wouldn't other nations react accordingly? What power does the US have to stop this?
1) Other nations increasingly have a large supply of high-skill talent.
2) Other nations will use capital and subsidies to launch their own tech firms employing their own workers. There are startup accelerators spinning up all over Europe and Asia to capture, retain, and reward domestic talent. They see how the game is played now.
3) Other nations will create more regulations that limit how much US tech companies can participate in their economy and monopolize their citizens as consumers. This is already happening with major international antitrust rulings hitting Google, Apple, and Facebook. This is the nail in the coffin. They will foster and protect their own industry at the expense of the US.
There are many more international tech companies participating at the global stage these days. Atlasssian, JetBrains, Spotify, SoftBank, TSM, ASML, miHoYo... Not to mention all of the Chinese tech companies popping up. Epic Games is 50% owned by Tencent.
This trend will continue. The US only has 300M people, and it's not growing with the same significant postwar tailwinds it once had. It can't keep the wealth and talent monopoly forever. Just look at how much the middle and lower classes are hurting as a symptom of this global rebalancing.
You can also look to other industries. Automotive, aerospace, etc. The US isn't peerless anymore.
Not saying this is good or bad, but it's definitely happening.
Why wouldn't other nations react accordingly? What power does the US have to stop this?
1) Other nations increasingly have a large supply of high-skill talent.
2) Other nations will use capital and subsidies to launch their own tech firms employing their own workers. There are startup accelerators spinning up all over Europe and Asia to capture, retain, and reward domestic talent. They see how the game is played now.
3) Other nations will create more regulations that limit how much US tech companies can participate in their economy and monopolize their citizens as consumers. This is already happening with major international antitrust rulings hitting Google, Apple, and Facebook. This is the nail in the coffin. They will foster and protect their own industry at the expense of the US.
There are many more international tech companies participating at the global stage these days. Atlasssian, JetBrains, Spotify, SoftBank, TSM, ASML, miHoYo... Not to mention all of the Chinese tech companies popping up. Epic Games is 50% owned by Tencent.
This trend will continue. The US only has 300M people, and it's not growing with the same significant postwar tailwinds it once had. It can't keep the wealth and talent monopoly forever. Just look at how much the middle and lower classes are hurting as a symptom of this global rebalancing.
You can also look to other industries. Automotive, aerospace, etc. The US isn't peerless anymore.
Not saying this is good or bad, but it's definitely happening.
The US has the tech companies MASSIVE wealth to stop this. It is all well and good to subsidize local tech companies, but for a majority of junior/senior devs you can't compete with $250K/yr in pay from FAANG companies whose stock won't stop rising and whose name on resume basically sets you up for life (exaggerating, but its not that far from the truth for a non-US and even US developers)
Your third point doesn't make any sense to me as no country will restrict their own citizens from working for a foreign company...earning massively higher salaries than local jobs (more money earned locally is more money spent locally... all metrics that nations care about will go up). Monopolizing your citizen's attention != monopolizing their talent.
Every company you just mentioned added up doesn't even equal or come close to Google's market capitalization (Atlassian, 150B, Spotify, 55B, TSM, 550B, ASML 350B, JetBrains, private, but some say 7B?, Epic Games, 30B) and of note, TSM and ASML draw much of their valuation from hardware than software.
Your third point doesn't make any sense to me as no country will restrict their own citizens from working for a foreign company...earning massively higher salaries than local jobs (more money earned locally is more money spent locally... all metrics that nations care about will go up). Monopolizing your citizen's attention != monopolizing their talent.
Every company you just mentioned added up doesn't even equal or come close to Google's market capitalization (Atlassian, 150B, Spotify, 55B, TSM, 550B, ASML 350B, JetBrains, private, but some say 7B?, Epic Games, 30B) and of note, TSM and ASML draw much of their valuation from hardware than software.
>no country will restrict their own citizens from working for a foreign company
This might surprise you, but some countries manage to achieve something like that. In Austria for example, if you go freelance (self employed) you'll actually end up paying more tax than being a FTE (which has already one of this highest taxes in the EU) while losing all the benefits of being a FTE like PTO, overtime and such.
So yeah, turns out high taxes are a pretty strong deterrent.
This might surprise you, but some countries manage to achieve something like that. In Austria for example, if you go freelance (self employed) you'll actually end up paying more tax than being a FTE (which has already one of this highest taxes in the EU) while losing all the benefits of being a FTE like PTO, overtime and such.
So yeah, turns out high taxes are a pretty strong deterrent.
> In Austria for example, if you go freelance (self employed) you'll actually end up paying more tax than being a FTE (which has already one of this highest taxes in the EU) while losing all the benefits of being a FTE like PTO, overtime and such.
This is the case everywhere in Europe. I don't know if it's a literal policy meant to discourage this or it's just that freelancers are easy political targets since they tend to be disorganized/disunited.
This is the case everywhere in Europe. I don't know if it's a literal policy meant to discourage this or it's just that freelancers are easy political targets since they tend to be disorganized/disunited.
>This is the case everywhere in Europe.
It definitely isn't. In most of Eastern Europe, freelancers pay peanuts in taxes in order to attract foreign investment. Which is why there tech sectors boomed so much in the last couple of decades to the point devs in Poland or Romania can take home more than their counterparts from richer countries like Austria. Granted, they also get no benefits, but when you take home several times the average national pay, you can actually afford to buy a decent house and maybe fund your own early retirement if you're good at investments.
>I don't know if it's a literal policy meant to discourage this or it's just that freelancers are easy political targets since they tend to be disorganized/disunited.
I think it's a bit of both. Trying to force your local talent who's education was taxpayer funded to only work for and support local business, instead of helping build another nation's champions (remote brain drain). A short sighted move in my opinion which just suppress wages and produces no local champions thanks to shit wages and a lack of opportunities.
It definitely isn't. In most of Eastern Europe, freelancers pay peanuts in taxes in order to attract foreign investment. Which is why there tech sectors boomed so much in the last couple of decades to the point devs in Poland or Romania can take home more than their counterparts from richer countries like Austria. Granted, they also get no benefits, but when you take home several times the average national pay, you can actually afford to buy a decent house and maybe fund your own early retirement if you're good at investments.
>I don't know if it's a literal policy meant to discourage this or it's just that freelancers are easy political targets since they tend to be disorganized/disunited.
I think it's a bit of both. Trying to force your local talent who's education was taxpayer funded to only work for and support local business, instead of helping build another nation's champions (remote brain drain). A short sighted move in my opinion which just suppress wages and produces no local champions thanks to shit wages and a lack of opportunities.
In Romania freelancers pay slightly fewer taxes but regular employees pay no income tax if their profile and the company profile match some rather easy to meet conditions.
I don't know about Poland.
I don't know about Poland.
Is more tax really being paid or is it simply that freelancers become responsible for paying employer payroll taxes?
In the US both employees and employers pay social security contributions. Going freelance here means you must pay both of these, double the amount an employee would see withheld from their paycheck. But it's not an extra tax. The government is still getting the same amount of money in total.
As a freelancer you need to set your rates appropriately to account for the payroll tax, PTO, etc. that would be paid if you were an FTE.
In the US both employees and employers pay social security contributions. Going freelance here means you must pay both of these, double the amount an employee would see withheld from their paycheck. But it's not an extra tax. The government is still getting the same amount of money in total.
As a freelancer you need to set your rates appropriately to account for the payroll tax, PTO, etc. that would be paid if you were an FTE.
Something similar in Croatia too. Some years ago they've introduced freelancer laws and pretty much everyone in this industry who was paid by foreign firms was using this.
But relatively recently the government changed their minds and said that if more than 50% of your income comes from a single employer then you're not a freelancer, and these laws don't apply.
So the option is to take a 60%+ tax on your income or find a job with a local company which then works for a foreign company. In latter case, they are nothing more than a middleman taking a smaller (but not much smaller) cut than the government while providing you with next to nothing.
So it doesn't make much time to figure out who lobbied for reversal of those freelancer laws.
But relatively recently the government changed their minds and said that if more than 50% of your income comes from a single employer then you're not a freelancer, and these laws don't apply.
So the option is to take a 60%+ tax on your income or find a job with a local company which then works for a foreign company. In latter case, they are nothing more than a middleman taking a smaller (but not much smaller) cut than the government while providing you with next to nothing.
So it doesn't make much time to figure out who lobbied for reversal of those freelancer laws.
Europe undervalues their engineers - and it seems like it's some sort of cultural thing that favors management. Their tax structure isn't great either, there's a reason zero billion dollar companies were founded in Europe (with the possible exception of Spotify). There's also the cultural pessimism and ambition being 'uncool' - there's a similar thing in Australia/New Zealand (at least I've heard from immigrant friends that moved from there). The 'tallest poppy gets chopped down' basically the opposite of the American idiom 'the squeaky wheel gets the grease'.
Even outside of Europe places like Toronto don't operate with the right investment mindset to actually create wealth: https://alexdanco.com/2021/01/11/why-the-canadian-tech-scene...
American optimism and ambition, really valuing engineers, generous equity and culture are a big part of this. Companies outside of America have been losing talent because they've been fucking this up, I expect things to get worse for them as geography is even less of an issue for working for American companies than it already is.
Devon is basically making this point, but the title is confusing. It's not the US companies that will lose the monopoly on talent, it's the US geography. The US companies will increase their monopoly.
Even outside of Europe places like Toronto don't operate with the right investment mindset to actually create wealth: https://alexdanco.com/2021/01/11/why-the-canadian-tech-scene...
American optimism and ambition, really valuing engineers, generous equity and culture are a big part of this. Companies outside of America have been losing talent because they've been fucking this up, I expect things to get worse for them as geography is even less of an issue for working for American companies than it already is.
Devon is basically making this point, but the title is confusing. It's not the US companies that will lose the monopoly on talent, it's the US geography. The US companies will increase their monopoly.
> Europe undervalues their engineers - and it seems like it's some sort of cultural thing that favors management.
It's something that I observed as well.
> American optimism and ambition, really valuing engineers, generous equity and culture are a big part of this. Companies outside of America have been losing talent because they've been fucking this up, I expect things to get worse for them as geography is even less of an issue for working for American companies than it already is.
Don't forget that companies who may have been hesitant to sponsor a visa for an unknown dev might be a lot more willing after having him work for a year or two remotely. And this remote employment also opens the possibility of different visas (L1 comes to mind).
I actually think we might see a larger drain to the US in the medium term. And I'm all in for that, if Europe wants to pay to educate engineers then waste their talent not valuing them, send them here!
It's something that I observed as well.
> American optimism and ambition, really valuing engineers, generous equity and culture are a big part of this. Companies outside of America have been losing talent because they've been fucking this up, I expect things to get worse for them as geography is even less of an issue for working for American companies than it already is.
Don't forget that companies who may have been hesitant to sponsor a visa for an unknown dev might be a lot more willing after having him work for a year or two remotely. And this remote employment also opens the possibility of different visas (L1 comes to mind).
I actually think we might see a larger drain to the US in the medium term. And I'm all in for that, if Europe wants to pay to educate engineers then waste their talent not valuing them, send them here!
I'm from Italy but working in Switzerland for a FAANG company. My theory about the management-heavy way to do things in Europe is the following: in Europe is hard to fire someone unless there is a clear and willingly negligence from his/her part. Engineers' output is somewhat easier to measure than "fluffy" (pardon my lack of better words) tasks performed by management and hence it's hard to prove a manager is doing nothing. Therefore, people tend to gravitate to these positions because they almost certainly guarantee job safety. In my personal experience this happens disproportionately much in countries where worker unions have more sway (like France, Italy, and Germany). Also in my opinion it's not a coincidence that such countries create companies that are bureaucratic behemoths in which there are several different committees to take every small decision. That's how management justify its existence.
This is the main reason that pushed me to go to Switzerland to work for an American company. I feel this is the sweet spot when considering worker rights, salary/purchasing power, interesting work without too much bureaucracy, quality of life, and work-life balance.
This is the main reason that pushed me to go to Switzerland to work for an American company. I feel this is the sweet spot when considering worker rights, salary/purchasing power, interesting work without too much bureaucracy, quality of life, and work-life balance.
I'm unsure about this given I see the same attitude with loads of developers who carry a senior title, have been in the company for many years but barely outperform a junior with a few years of experience.
My more cynical take is management and management-adjacent roles are easier to climb to and more abundant, pay better than the equivalent technical-only title and since managers largely decide what is going on, they'll obviously provide job security for themselves in whatever obscene way possible. At the same time culture views a manager as something noteworthy and of a higher rank already, which loops back and reinforces itself through payment, work and lifestyle, which then loops back to the way culture views it. The same can't be set for most developers who aren't at least partially dabbling into self-employment, entrepreneurship or management themselves, which then further reinforces the manager > developer mindset.
My more cynical take is management and management-adjacent roles are easier to climb to and more abundant, pay better than the equivalent technical-only title and since managers largely decide what is going on, they'll obviously provide job security for themselves in whatever obscene way possible. At the same time culture views a manager as something noteworthy and of a higher rank already, which loops back and reinforces itself through payment, work and lifestyle, which then loops back to the way culture views it. The same can't be set for most developers who aren't at least partially dabbling into self-employment, entrepreneurship or management themselves, which then further reinforces the manager > developer mindset.
Engineers alone don't make a great tech company. Because there is a global engineering shortage but not a global sales, marketing, product management, UX, etc. shortage all of the knowledge on how to do those functions effectively won't spread as quickly (if at all) and will have to be learned locally.
> global sales, marketing, product management, UX, etc. shortage
FAANG have already spent years building up these capacities in Europe. Sales in particular is incredibly local (as one might expect).
FAANG have already spent years building up these capacities in Europe. Sales in particular is incredibly local (as one might expect).
> the importance of physically residing in the US will decrease, and that there is an opportunity for other locales/governments to attract remote workers.
COVID really did changed everything, and proved working from home not only works well, but more importantly to CFOs, made it significantly cheaper by literally outsourcing real estate costs to employees.
The past few months have been interesting. I've been contacted by so many recruiters the past year not from my state or even country that it's wild, and all for remote jobs. Compare that to the past few years where the conversation ends abruptly as soon as I mentioned that i would not be relocating.
COVID really did changed everything, and proved working from home not only works well, but more importantly to CFOs, made it significantly cheaper by literally outsourcing real estate costs to employees.
The past few months have been interesting. I've been contacted by so many recruiters the past year not from my state or even country that it's wild, and all for remote jobs. Compare that to the past few years where the conversation ends abruptly as soon as I mentioned that i would not be relocating.
I'm on the business side of the house, we keep waiting for rent to drop so we can find more space for growth, and it's not dropping because folks in real estate think there will be a rebound. As soon as I try to get into a negotiation, it's almost like they're MORE sticky on the price than they used to be, I guess because everyone is looking for a deal. I don't know what will happen but it makes no sense for me to pay premium for space when we can just hire people remote, and landlords are still not negotiating in a lot of markets (SF and NYC aside) exacerbating the business side of the house want to push hard into remote.
Must be the area you're in. In Melbourne, office real estate is practically on life support and they'll happily discount
Melbourne Australia is in the third year of population decline now. I know on top of this population shift that a huge number of the major employers have shifted towards much more work from home arrangements due to the pandemic and due to the the 263 days of lockdowns that were imposed I think many of these changes will last for longer than in places that were less disrupted. That said I still think commercial real estate prices here are artificially high/in a bubble because of the high number of vacancies even if there's already been a pullback in prices. Just structurally speaking the demand side for commercial real estate here has substantially fallen, but I'm not sure the same can be said for other parts of the world right now. I'd be curious to know more about what's happening in other locations as I feel like Melbourne is a bit of an outlier in many regards.
Ah! Yeah you're right... I guess the lockdown has given me a bit of a bias.
Slightly on topic speaking of commercial real estate, I was sad to hear York Butter Factory is in liquidation :(
Slightly on topic speaking of commercial real estate, I was sad to hear York Butter Factory is in liquidation :(
I can't say I'm entirely surprised, occupancy rates in Melbourne's commercial real estate are exceptionally low at the moment: https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/ghost-town-warni...
I've been keeping an eye on London, Paris, Berlin, Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal for about 5 months now, really not seeing much movement at all unfortunately. Toronto and Vancouver are particularly holding on strong, stuff will sit empty for 3 months I'll go back and ask the brokers, owners are still not willing to lower the rent a cent, they really think everyone is coming back Q1/2 next year - it's pretty interesting to me.
What type of office space are you looking for your company?
My understanding and it could be wrong is that they can't lower their rates, (and might actually have to increase to compensate for more vacancy) because it will affect their ability to finance the buildings if they have lower rates from whatever math is used to calculate the soundness of the loans. That could be causing the stickiness on price you are seeing (if it's not apocryphal).
My understanding is your understanding is correct. I've also been told that's why NYC tends to be quite unique, the buildings are mostly owned so there is more leeway in finding something as you can go directly to the owner. That said, a startup I consult to is in the basement of a building in Vancouver, I talked to their landlord who owns the building free and clear for 3 generations, same deal, no reason to rent it, just let it sit till the market rebounds. Curious to see what will happen.
Meanwhile, I’m hoping that global competition increases tech pay for non-US companies and I can land a remote gig that has some actual benefits like paternal leave.
Aren't the things you listed precisely the things that article is saying will change? The point of the article is that countries with favorable time zones for U.S. business hours can implement policies to attract immigrants to come and work remotely for U.S. companies.
Isn't that what the article implies? Talent will be more distributed, but working for US companies.
> the USA don't care about your diploma, only what you can do
That's a total bullshit, unfortunately. Everything else is correct.
That's a total bullshit, unfortunately. Everything else is correct.
Now a days, it's very much true. I've worked for FAANG companies, a number of mid-major sized tech/internet companies, have had a engineering job for 20+ years, been a CTO and co-founded a VC backed company. All without any degree, in fact in the 20+ years in the field I've never once been out of work. Early in my career I was rejected a couple of times for lack of degree but I can't even remember the last time I was asked about a degree. I know a number of other long term successful non-degree engineers also. So unless you have solid data to back that up, I'd agree strongly for it not being bullshit. The only tech field that I can see that argument for is higher level Data Scientists and that's clearly becoming less and less of a requirement also.
That's the point though - in lieu of some outstanding success and track record that makes you an extreme outlier, a degree is pretty much required.
I work in a big tech company and you have to be extraordinary to get hired without a degree as an entry level dev. 10+ years experience and it won't matter so much, no.
That's why you join a small company that doesn't ask for anything, maybe a small web design shop. Then within a year you find some other company, maybe a middle ware company or consulting shop. And after that, since you now have 2-3 years of experience, you aim for the big boys.
Basically a sort of on-the-job-training-degree, just that you get paid for it :-)
Basically a sort of on-the-job-training-degree, just that you get paid for it :-)
I have successfully went through a chain of technical interviews, but wasn't hired to Facebook because HR realized I have no degree. So our experience is really different.
>I've worked for FAANG companies, a number of mid-major sized tech/internet companies, have had a engineering job for 20+ years, been a CTO and co-founded a VC backed company. All without any degree, in fact in the 20+ years in the field I've never once been out of work.
Things are very different now than they were 20, or even 10 years ago. It used to be that people coming into this field did it out of passion and interest in the work, and accordingly the talent pool was fairly small and someone with a bit of knowledge and aptitude could get a shot.
Now it's just seen as a lucrative career like Law or Business, and so CS has become the number one major at many US universities these days. We are facing an absolute glut of new grads. And if you're trying to compete for an entry level job without a degree now, you're pretty much out of luck.
Things are very different now than they were 20, or even 10 years ago. It used to be that people coming into this field did it out of passion and interest in the work, and accordingly the talent pool was fairly small and someone with a bit of knowledge and aptitude could get a shot.
Now it's just seen as a lucrative career like Law or Business, and so CS has become the number one major at many US universities these days. We are facing an absolute glut of new grads. And if you're trying to compete for an entry level job without a degree now, you're pretty much out of luck.
facebook is hiring 10,000 developers in the EU to build the Metaverse.
https://www.reuters.com/technology/facebook-plans-hire-10000...
My daughter is looking to go into software engineering and I was explaining to her that most of the high paying jobs are in the US and there's a big brain drain out of Europe (we're Brits). Not to dissuade her, but that she might consider that as an option on graduation. I was speculating why FAANG don't hire more developers in Europe to take advantage of the pay difference, and then the above story broke literally the next day.
https://www.reuters.com/technology/facebook-plans-hire-10000...
My daughter is looking to go into software engineering and I was explaining to her that most of the high paying jobs are in the US and there's a big brain drain out of Europe (we're Brits). Not to dissuade her, but that she might consider that as an option on graduation. I was speculating why FAANG don't hire more developers in Europe to take advantage of the pay difference, and then the above story broke literally the next day.
That's pretty big news indeed, but I'll wait until it happens. For now it's just a plan, and I've heard so many plans.
They do hire in Europe but pick expensive locales such as Switzerland, London or Dublin. I can't stop wondering why not open shop in Italy or Spain - wages may be much lower with way higher life quality.
Are there a big enough talent pool of highly skilled and experienced developers in Italy or Spain? It’s a chicken and egg problem, you need to go where there’s already a market for these skills.
They could tap into infinite supply of developers from Romania, Poland, Ukraine, Hungary, Russia...
Who would move just for the privilege of living in literally sea side resort.
I also think that some developers from Nordic countries will consider, and the rest of Europeans who would like the opportunity working at FAANG.
Who would move just for the privilege of living in literally sea side resort.
I also think that some developers from Nordic countries will consider, and the rest of Europeans who would like the opportunity working at FAANG.
I’ve worked for several companies with dev centers in more out of the way places in Europe: Vilnius, Sofia, and Braga (Portugal). There were a number of obstacles in each.
First, these are just not big cities with a lot of people. They don’t have large labor pools or many companies to choose from like London or Paris or Dublin to start with. It immediately limits the number of locals you can hire without relocation.
Second, many of these locations are not as friendly to immigrants. Either they don’t have existing communities or the visa programs they offer are not friendly to non-EU citizens. It is hard to get Indians to move to Bulgaria when they don’t speak the language, there are few other Indians there, and the govt does not provide visa programs that make it easy. Similarly, even though other EU nationals can work in places like Sofia without a visa, few are interested in this. They either want to go to big markets with all the amenities like Berlin, Paris, Dublin, or they want to stay in their home country. Romanians are not very interested in moving to Lithuania. The best candidates we’d find were Lithuanians who had been working in the US or London who wanted to move back to Lithuania for family reasons but work for a Silicon Valley type company.
This problem was amplified for older workers who had kids or wanted to start a family. They want to know it’s a place they can stay for a while.
Third, often times the govt were just not friendly to tech companies. In Portugal, there were many issues around employees working overtime (at all not just for extra pay), having to give one year notice of layoffs. The business viewed the labor laws as a hassle to do business there. They might put up with it in a market where they can hire a lot, but with the above problems, it made the locations even less attractive.
First, these are just not big cities with a lot of people. They don’t have large labor pools or many companies to choose from like London or Paris or Dublin to start with. It immediately limits the number of locals you can hire without relocation.
Second, many of these locations are not as friendly to immigrants. Either they don’t have existing communities or the visa programs they offer are not friendly to non-EU citizens. It is hard to get Indians to move to Bulgaria when they don’t speak the language, there are few other Indians there, and the govt does not provide visa programs that make it easy. Similarly, even though other EU nationals can work in places like Sofia without a visa, few are interested in this. They either want to go to big markets with all the amenities like Berlin, Paris, Dublin, or they want to stay in their home country. Romanians are not very interested in moving to Lithuania. The best candidates we’d find were Lithuanians who had been working in the US or London who wanted to move back to Lithuania for family reasons but work for a Silicon Valley type company.
This problem was amplified for older workers who had kids or wanted to start a family. They want to know it’s a place they can stay for a while.
Third, often times the govt were just not friendly to tech companies. In Portugal, there were many issues around employees working overtime (at all not just for extra pay), having to give one year notice of layoffs. The business viewed the labor laws as a hassle to do business there. They might put up with it in a market where they can hire a lot, but with the above problems, it made the locations even less attractive.
I know a lot of devs that would move to Barcelona in an instant but also know plenty of devs that hate London and don't want to move there despite a FB offer. Never understood why FB from all possibilities picked London - maybe British want to move there, but the rest of EU not.
Because Google picked London, and they were in a phase of poaching from Google. They're still there because of path dependence.
Also because London is the only European city which everyone in the US has definitely heard of ;)
Also because London is the only European city which everyone in the US has definitely heard of ;)
We've tried hiring in these locations (Italy and Spain) with some success, but it's pretty tough because the talent pool is so small. At some point, you weigh whether the lower cost of the salary is worth the extra time/effort spent adding headcount. Which is funny because we have no shortage of Italian and Spanish devs applying for our expensive European city offices. I don't know European urban dynamics that well, but it certainly seems to me, off the cuff at least, that Europeans want to live in high COL European cities as much as Americans want to live in high COL American cities.
>We've tried hiring in these locations (Italy and Spain) with some success, but it's pretty tough because the talent pool is so small.
Is it a question of language skills, technical skills, or both?
Is it a question of language skills, technical skills, or both?
> Europeans want to live in high COL European cities as much as Americans want to live in high COL American cities.
Makes sense. There is a reason that its high COL
Makes sense. There is a reason that its high COL
> We've tried hiring in these locations (Italy and Spain) with some success, but it's pretty tough because the talent pool is so small.
Are you at Facebook? Because local talent doesn't matter as much. It's not like the Dublin or London office relies on local talent. I've had tons of colleagues from Romania move there. And when they get there, there are a ton of folks from India, Ukraine, China, Estonia, whatever, a huge chunk of them freshly arrived from their home countries.
If Facebook would go to Spain and Italy, even in the more expensive cities, salaries would be so huge that they would completely dwarf the higher cost of living compared to the rest of the country. But places like Madrid or Lisbon would still be cheaper than for example, London. And with definitely better weather :-)
Are you at Facebook? Because local talent doesn't matter as much. It's not like the Dublin or London office relies on local talent. I've had tons of colleagues from Romania move there. And when they get there, there are a ton of folks from India, Ukraine, China, Estonia, whatever, a huge chunk of them freshly arrived from their home countries.
If Facebook would go to Spain and Italy, even in the more expensive cities, salaries would be so huge that they would completely dwarf the higher cost of living compared to the rest of the country. But places like Madrid or Lisbon would still be cheaper than for example, London. And with definitely better weather :-)
The point is high value DBA from those places do not want to get jobs in those places. They want to get jobs in high COL places like London because they are nicer places for young well off engineers to live.
I'd be super shocked if this were the case for, say, Barcelona vs London.
My guess is that the language barrier is the killer. Everybody in IT outside of maybe China and Japan learns English so London is kind of easy mode.
My guess is that the language barrier is the killer. Everybody in IT outside of maybe China and Japan learns English so London is kind of easy mode.
maybe because people on those countries are not idiots and they know they will be paid better if they move to northen countries?
There's also some very high paying software engineering roles in the UK, such as machine learning engineers. Of course, the salary varies from the north to the south quite a bit.
Nevertheless, you can get 100k just out of uni in an ML role! Especially if it's following a PhD.
Nevertheless, you can get 100k just out of uni in an ML role! Especially if it's following a PhD.
>There's also some very high paying software engineering roles in the UK, such as machine learning engineers.
>Nevertheless, you can get 100k just out of uni in an ML role! Especially if it's following a PhD.
I wouldn't call that "very high paying" at all compared to the US ones. $100k is way less than what a non-ML undergrad dev gets at an entry level FAANG position in the US. And yes, even for remote positions (within the US specifically and, to a degree, Canada; felt the need to clarify, because FAANG positions outside of the US/Canada pay much less, despite still being usually noticeably higher than local alternatives), so no need to go the "but living in Bay Area is extremely expensive".
But for an ML role that requires a PhD? $100k in the US for that would be laughable. Not trying to stir anything up or argue, but I do recommend doing a bit more research on the topic, especially if you are trying to help a future college student make a decision on a degree/career path. A good starting point would be checking levels.fyi, which seems to be by far the most accurate resource on tech salaries from my experience, despite sometimes showing a few random datapoints that are a bit off (mostly due to some people not entering their stock grants or annual bonuses properly and not accounting properly for vesting)
>Nevertheless, you can get 100k just out of uni in an ML role! Especially if it's following a PhD.
I wouldn't call that "very high paying" at all compared to the US ones. $100k is way less than what a non-ML undergrad dev gets at an entry level FAANG position in the US. And yes, even for remote positions (within the US specifically and, to a degree, Canada; felt the need to clarify, because FAANG positions outside of the US/Canada pay much less, despite still being usually noticeably higher than local alternatives), so no need to go the "but living in Bay Area is extremely expensive".
But for an ML role that requires a PhD? $100k in the US for that would be laughable. Not trying to stir anything up or argue, but I do recommend doing a bit more research on the topic, especially if you are trying to help a future college student make a decision on a degree/career path. A good starting point would be checking levels.fyi, which seems to be by far the most accurate resource on tech salaries from my experience, despite sometimes showing a few random datapoints that are a bit off (mostly due to some people not entering their stock grants or annual bonuses properly and not accounting properly for vesting)
100 GBP = 135 USD
Your point still stands though.
Your point still stands though.
Probably mostly censors. Roblox has about 4000 censors, outsourced to low-wage countries.
> Probably mostly censors.
Facebook already have greater than 10k contractors in Europe for content moderation work.
The announcement is specifically about engineering roles (including DS, PM, UX etc).
Facebook already have greater than 10k contractors in Europe for content moderation work.
The announcement is specifically about engineering roles (including DS, PM, UX etc).
Tons of places use devs in Poland, Romania, Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, Bulgaria, and Serbia for example. Most of the US companies that outsource to Europe mostly just choose to outsource to the cheapest places with good talent.
Office wise though, that would make sense to open up in UK, Spain, Germany, etc.
Office wise though, that would make sense to open up in UK, Spain, Germany, etc.
USA is super expensive. Yes you can get a large paycheck, wait until you see house prices.
Also current situation does not inspire confidence in somebody who may be identified as white male.
Also current situation does not inspire confidence in somebody who may be identified as white male.
It's really expensive, yes. But honestly, another significant part of it is that the way of life of some americans is crazy.
I'm considered a spender among my peers, and even I am amazed when I discuss with american friends, watching the money they throw away.
Most of them have huge food budget: they never cook and eat outside all the time. They have so many recurring payments for so many services. They spend tons money to refund a student load for a degree they never finished, or a mortage on a car or credit cards fees. Cigarets, alcohol, weed, then various kinds of meds.
Some of them have several generations of console, one PC, and changed their phone every 2 years for the last decade.
When I visited the USA with my father (he worked for an airline), we always ended the trip with flipping through garbages in nice neighbourhoods. Once we found a printer. Another time we found a tennis racket.
So when they tell me they are having a hard time with money, it's not easy to be compassionate.
I know there are people working 3 jobs, living paycheck to paycheck and eating junk food to survive. But they are not coders in the valley.
I'm considered a spender among my peers, and even I am amazed when I discuss with american friends, watching the money they throw away.
Most of them have huge food budget: they never cook and eat outside all the time. They have so many recurring payments for so many services. They spend tons money to refund a student load for a degree they never finished, or a mortage on a car or credit cards fees. Cigarets, alcohol, weed, then various kinds of meds.
Some of them have several generations of console, one PC, and changed their phone every 2 years for the last decade.
When I visited the USA with my father (he worked for an airline), we always ended the trip with flipping through garbages in nice neighbourhoods. Once we found a printer. Another time we found a tennis racket.
So when they tell me they are having a hard time with money, it's not easy to be compassionate.
I know there are people working 3 jobs, living paycheck to paycheck and eating junk food to survive. But they are not coders in the valley.
If you want to be located in a place which pays relatively high in Europe, housing prices are adequate. 10-15 years ago it would be possible to have disproportionally large salary in eastern places like Prague, but that's history now.
Even if it still costs less than SF, your paycheck now looks adequate. Covid era raised prices everywhere.
Even if it still costs less than SF, your paycheck now looks adequate. Covid era raised prices everywhere.
It's possible to work remotely in post-covid era, which allows living in nicer, cheaper locales. No longer it is necessary to move where jobs are.
If you have family, this becomes more complex. If your kids are older have already good friends and social circles, such a move becomes supremely selfish
What if you already live in a cheaper, less bubbly area? Or decide to move there early on.
Then staying there and working remotely becomes family friendly, and moving becomes super selfish. Most people assume moving to get a good job, which will lead exactly to the consequences above.
Then staying there and working remotely becomes family friendly, and moving becomes super selfish. Most people assume moving to get a good job, which will lead exactly to the consequences above.
> 10-15 years ago it would be possible to have disproportionally large salary in eastern places like Prague, but that's history now.
It still happens but you need to go further East, like Romania, for example.
But Romania is far more disorganized compared to Czechia, so there are downsides.
It still happens but you need to go further East, like Romania, for example.
But Romania is far more disorganized compared to Czechia, so there are downsides.
White males are one of the highest paid demographic groups in the US and always have been.
It seems white americans are far behind many asian ethnic groups
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U...
That's because US immigration policy selects for immigrants with significant wealth or specialized educations and experience. Our policy specifically selects for high earners and the already wealthy.
You can see this effect clearly from your own source, where Australian Americans and South African Americans both have higher median incomes than almost all Asian American households, as well as white Americans. Same thing goes for Pakistani, Iranian, Lebonese and Austrian Americans compared to other groups in the US.
You can see this effect clearly from your own source, where Australian Americans and South African Americans both have higher median incomes than almost all Asian American households, as well as white Americans. Same thing goes for Pakistani, Iranian, Lebonese and Austrian Americans compared to other groups in the US.
Yes, I understand that might be a factor. However, this still invalidates the point that whites are the most privileged group. If we take second/third-generation indians, they, on average, would be wealthier than most whites. Does this mean they are more privileged? I think yes
"However, this still invalidates the point that whites are the most privileged group."
No one made that point. And yes, it's true, if you look at certain much smaller demographic groups you can find groups that are somewhat more economically advantaged than white men.
No one made that point. And yes, it's true, if you look at certain much smaller demographic groups you can find groups that are somewhat more economically advantaged than white men.
The only alternative explanation of such wealth difference is that these "white males" are objectively better at it. That's why I mentioned privileges
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House prices are often even higher in Europe, relative to wages. Check prices in London or Paris to see: you get smaller apartments, smaller houses on smaller lots than in US, and you’ll pay larger percentage of your paycheck for them.
I looked into Paris and the 19th looks very reasonably priced and apex civilized to me. (I've walked all over it.) A two bedroom for say €2000-2500/m with easy access to the Metro. Am I wrong? I was surprised when I looked at the prices, maybe my sources are inaccurate. But then I discovered Montpellier :-), half as expensive.
I've lived in Atlanta, Phoenix and SF/MV/Santa Clara, and no, none of those come close to the quality of life for the money. For reference I live in a 2300ft^2 house in the country, and it was great for raising a family, but now I'd rather rejoin civilization. So I'm aware of the tradeoffs.
I've lived in Atlanta, Phoenix and SF/MV/Santa Clara, and no, none of those come close to the quality of life for the money. For reference I live in a 2300ft^2 house in the country, and it was great for raising a family, but now I'd rather rejoin civilization. So I'm aware of the tradeoffs.
Average household income in Paris is 36k EUR. 2000-2500 EUR/mo is insanely expensive. For comparison, in Sunnyvale, CA, median rent for 2 bedroom is $3k, but median household income is $130k.
Seriously, if you think housing is expensive relative to incomes in Bay Area, or NYC, it will seem like a bargain compared to London or Paris.
Seriously, if you think housing is expensive relative to incomes in Bay Area, or NYC, it will seem like a bargain compared to London or Paris.
Why would I work for 36k? This discussion is about remote work. I'm not worried about making 3x that.
As I mentioned, I've lived in Mountain View and Santa Clara. Sunnyvale is in the middle. I'm a cyclist and loved to climb up the various two lane grades and over the top to the coast and back. I visited MV and San Jose last spring. And SF. It was much more interesting in the '90s. Now the South Bay is just another dead US suburb.
I wouldn't live there again for $500k/year.
We haven't even discussed why most families move to the suburbs: children. We have done the two commute raising a child in the Bay Area. We evacuated when the school logistics became visible, and in hindsight, rightly so.
As I mentioned, I've lived in Mountain View and Santa Clara. Sunnyvale is in the middle. I'm a cyclist and loved to climb up the various two lane grades and over the top to the coast and back. I visited MV and San Jose last spring. And SF. It was much more interesting in the '90s. Now the South Bay is just another dead US suburb.
I wouldn't live there again for $500k/year.
We haven't even discussed why most families move to the suburbs: children. We have done the two commute raising a child in the Bay Area. We evacuated when the school logistics became visible, and in hindsight, rightly so.
Ah ah ah, €2000-2500/m in France is crazy expensive.
In Nice, I would pay 1100€/m for the same thing, and that's also considered an expensive city.
In my current country side town, I pay the ridiculously low price of 300€/m for a 3 bedrooms flat. Now that's the lower end of the spectrum, because it's a very poor deep country side village.
But yeah, some devs start their career at 2400€ a month as a salary :)
In Nice, I would pay 1100€/m for the same thing, and that's also considered an expensive city.
In my current country side town, I pay the ridiculously low price of 300€/m for a 3 bedrooms flat. Now that's the lower end of the spectrum, because it's a very poor deep country side village.
But yeah, some devs start their career at 2400€ a month as a salary :)
I am really glad to hear this. The first time I looked at housing costs in Montpellier I was astounded. I asked some of my EU friends and they said yup. City center is about the same as Nice apparently, and I consider that dirt cheap. It's not Paris, but... I could dig being near the sea again. Try getting anywhere as near the US Pacific coast, hahahaha.
There is nothing reasonable in €2000-2500/m
House prices where? We got our house for 345k and I earn 100k+ in North Carolina. Not everyone needs to live in California.
And you call that cheap?
A house at about 3.5 the yearly income is cheap, yes. Historically it was quite a bit more.
https://www.longtermtrends.net/home-price-median-annual-inco...
https://www.longtermtrends.net/home-price-median-annual-inco...
In fact I do, it isn’t the 700k or more we expected to pay in California. We could have gone even cheaper if we waited.
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Imagine being so bad at your chosen career, a career so in demand that there are serious efforts to expand the talent pool to a wider variety of people, that you are afraid that those efforts will cost you your job.
Imagine being so ignorant of history that you think the (tulip hysteria, dotcom boom, condo craze, etc) will continue unabated into the unforeseeable future.
These are all subjective. I worked on Haskell, without a degree, on interesting problems for an NY salary remotely out of my bedroom in Oxford. I have since moved to the Bay Area and am working for an Eastern European country while earning a Bay Area rate.
For something like Haskell, you can definitely negotiate that kind of thing if you have some experience. Those skills are highly coveted and valued if you know your worth imo.
>I have since moved to the Bay Area and am working for an Eastern European country while earning a Bay Area rate.
If I understood it correctly, you physically live in Bay Area while working remotely for a company located in Eastern Europe, and you are earning Bay Area rates? This seems like the complete inverse of the situation I usually hear of (working for a Bay Area company remotely in a cheaper area and earning Bay Area rates).
Out of pure curiosity, do you mind sharing the name of that Eastern European company? Totally understandable if you aren't willing to do so, but I have a feeling that there is probably literally 1 or 2 companies tops that would be willing to do that, so it isn't really an option for almost anyone. The first two that popped into my mind were Yandex and, to a much lesser degree, VK.
If I understood it correctly, you physically live in Bay Area while working remotely for a company located in Eastern Europe, and you are earning Bay Area rates? This seems like the complete inverse of the situation I usually hear of (working for a Bay Area company remotely in a cheaper area and earning Bay Area rates).
Out of pure curiosity, do you mind sharing the name of that Eastern European company? Totally understandable if you aren't willing to do so, but I have a feeling that there is probably literally 1 or 2 companies tops that would be willing to do that, so it isn't really an option for almost anyone. The first two that popped into my mind were Yandex and, to a much lesser degree, VK.
Jetbrains?
You understand correctly! It's a crypto startup but I don't really want to have my account be to obviously mine. It isn't amazing bay area rates, but it's six figures.
No need to reveal the exact company name, your clarification was more than enough to address my curiosity in regards to the situation. I really appreciate you giving just enough info, without compromising your own privacy, especially since it sounds like it is a small startup.
For me it was just enough information to make me more curious about what type of crypto company. I work for one too, but not on the fun web3 side of things.
Do you mind elaborating on what that is? Looking to learn as much about web 3 as possible. Thanks
I work for a company that does market making for crypto exchanges and projects, but I'm mainly doing fullstack webdev for internal apps right now.
Yandex Labs is a San Francisco company. Technically owned by Yandex, but otherwise not much difference from any other Bay Area company.
Wow, I actually had no idea that Yandex had any presence in the US. Sounds like a pretty interesting setup they got this way, I will have to check it out.
I'm living in Moscow, Russia and I know for sure that we have so many crypto companies here but still I was not aware that they are ready to pay Bay Area salaries :)
I’m sure you can find something if you look! But most are happy with global hires so you can find one elsewhere and apply anyway, I’ve worked with several fantastic Russian devs :)
> If you want to code in Haskell or Lisp in Europe, good luck.
Uhh... https://trustica.cz/category/tech/racket/
Uhh... https://trustica.cz/category/tech/racket/
Heck, even Ocaml!
https://www.lexifi.com/
https://www.lexifi.com/
I checked them out and they're unsupringly French. As a point of pride, Ocaml is pretty in universities here. For some reason, the computer scientists here are weirdly obsessed with functionalism and formalism.
It’s not like the USA wants to pay more. If they can get away with paying less for the work, they will.
Right by they do pay more. A lot more
> If anything, it will make it easier to work FOR the US.
So that's kind of the point - those remote workers for US companies will do their daily spending, house construction, etc and pay their taxes outside of USA, boosting the economy and creating the demand for non-developer jobs there instead of USA.
So that's kind of the point - those remote workers for US companies will do their daily spending, house construction, etc and pay their taxes outside of USA, boosting the economy and creating the demand for non-developer jobs there instead of USA.
Yeah, but that's a bit like trickle down economics. It's literal trickling, it's not a deluge.
In these cases the top jobs will still tend to stay in the home country. So the most successful of these companies will be able to hire more top level folks and most of these will be in the home country.
In these cases the top jobs will still tend to stay in the home country. So the most successful of these companies will be able to hire more top level folks and most of these will be in the home country.
“a bit like trickle down economics”
It is standard economics. If the value of American citizenship is eroded, and I would argue that it is across a number of fronts, then America as a nation loses value. Pretty simple. Econ 101.
It is standard economics. If the value of American citizenship is eroded, and I would argue that it is across a number of fronts, then America as a nation loses value. Pretty simple. Econ 101.
> "If you want to code in Haskell or Lisp in Europe, good luck."
Sidebar: I don't want to work with any Engineer for whom the programming language plays any role in their choice of career.
I want to work with engineers that want to build solutions for customer problems, solving complicated technical challenges using the best tool for the job. Sometimes that tool is Haskell or Lisp, or Erlang. Sometimes it isn't.
I also want to work with engineers that recognize that they can do more as part of a team than lone-wolfing everything themselves. That also means that sometimes the best tool for the TEAM is not the best tool for them individually.
Sidebar: I don't want to work with any Engineer for whom the programming language plays any role in their choice of career.
I want to work with engineers that want to build solutions for customer problems, solving complicated technical challenges using the best tool for the job. Sometimes that tool is Haskell or Lisp, or Erlang. Sometimes it isn't.
I also want to work with engineers that recognize that they can do more as part of a team than lone-wolfing everything themselves. That also means that sometimes the best tool for the TEAM is not the best tool for them individually.
>no country pay like the US. Worked for silicon valley companies remotely, and made twice the money I made in France, while being 3 times cheaper than local competition.
Not a problem for foreign companies that can and do pay "like the US", because they compete globally.
>- no country have the volume of hi-level coding gig job offers the US has.
Well, in that aspect, the US wont compete with each country one by one, but by the volume of hi-level coding gig job offers in all of them combined.
>- few countries even have has many interesting projects. If you want to code in Haskell or Lisp in Europe, good luck.
StandardChartered is a British bank - and one of the main Haskell employers (it's not like they are many). There are lots of others. Eiffel (France), Smalltalk is used by several European companies in different places, and I see a comparable number of companies using Common Lisp in Europe as in the US ehre: https://common-lisp.net/lisp-companies
And, in any case, even in FAANG 99% of programmers don't do Haskell or Lisp, so the point is moot.
>- talent attract talent. It's better to work with companies already full of good devs, the colleagues are coolers, the projects are more interesting and the infra will be better. Inertia is in favor of the USA.
Yeah, inertia the US has :-)
On the other hand, momentum is in favor of Asia and Africa...
Not a problem for foreign companies that can and do pay "like the US", because they compete globally.
>- no country have the volume of hi-level coding gig job offers the US has.
Well, in that aspect, the US wont compete with each country one by one, but by the volume of hi-level coding gig job offers in all of them combined.
>- few countries even have has many interesting projects. If you want to code in Haskell or Lisp in Europe, good luck.
StandardChartered is a British bank - and one of the main Haskell employers (it's not like they are many). There are lots of others. Eiffel (France), Smalltalk is used by several European companies in different places, and I see a comparable number of companies using Common Lisp in Europe as in the US ehre: https://common-lisp.net/lisp-companies
And, in any case, even in FAANG 99% of programmers don't do Haskell or Lisp, so the point is moot.
>- talent attract talent. It's better to work with companies already full of good devs, the colleagues are coolers, the projects are more interesting and the infra will be better. Inertia is in favor of the USA.
Yeah, inertia the US has :-)
On the other hand, momentum is in favor of Asia and Africa...
>Not a problem for foreign companies that can and do pay "like the US", because they compete globally.
Do they really though? How many non-US companies are paying $150k+ to mid level front end developers? I don't think that exists anywhere else.
Do they really though? How many non-US companies are paying $150k+ to mid level front end developers? I don't think that exists anywhere else.
Yeah - I'd be surprised. I hear European salaries are at best ~100k maybe ~120k and that's pretty much maxed out a decade in. Day 1 silicon valley devs do better than that.
150k is also out of date for mid-level FAANG total comp today. I hear it's more like 600k and goes up from there.
150k is also out of date for mid-level FAANG total comp today. I hear it's more like 600k and goes up from there.
>150k is also out of date for mid-level FAANG total comp today. I hear it's more like 600k and goes up from there.
FAANG is a whole other ballgame. $150k is intern level pay there. I was just talking average total comp for B and C tier large companies outside the Bay. The kind of role an average self taught dev with 2-3 years experience could expect to land in any major US city.
FAANG is a whole other ballgame. $150k is intern level pay there. I was just talking average total comp for B and C tier large companies outside the Bay. The kind of role an average self taught dev with 2-3 years experience could expect to land in any major US city.
Ah gotcha - yeah that sounds right to me.
It doesn't exist for the majority of the US either...
https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/computer-programm...
https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/computer-programm...
>If you want to code in Haskell or Lisp in Europe, good luck.
I can agree with points around salary and diploma, but not on that one.
Scala, Haskell, Ocaml, Clojure, Coq, Idris are much more significant in the EU than in the US. Many Ph.D. contribute to language and ecosystem, and you can easily find exciting projects with them, not only crypto.
Even GHC was developed mainly by the EU and British people. The Swiss academy created Scala. Coq and Ocaml are big in French academy circles.
It's also a problem for me because I'm working from Eastern Europe (I can pay only 5% tax on all income up to 250k euro on remote). I primarily work with US companies, salaries are outstanding, but usually interesting FP-ish things are done in the EU, where wages are lower.
And I am on remote, so there is no profit for me to earn less with better social and government benefits like people in West Europe.
Scala, Haskell, Ocaml, Clojure, Coq, Idris are much more significant in the EU than in the US. Many Ph.D. contribute to language and ecosystem, and you can easily find exciting projects with them, not only crypto.
Even GHC was developed mainly by the EU and British people. The Swiss academy created Scala. Coq and Ocaml are big in French academy circles.
It's also a problem for me because I'm working from Eastern Europe (I can pay only 5% tax on all income up to 250k euro on remote). I primarily work with US companies, salaries are outstanding, but usually interesting FP-ish things are done in the EU, where wages are lower.
And I am on remote, so there is no profit for me to earn less with better social and government benefits like people in West Europe.
Can I ask how/where you get good remote US jobs? I'm also from Eastern Europe.
There are exceptions.
- There are plenty of smaller tech hubs with way higher quality of life like Zurich, Berlin
- Or others that are incredible affordable like Warsow, Bukarest, ..
- The USD is not looking healthy from CHFs perspective. I would have to expect to earn less every month.
- Getting paid from the US makes banking and taxes way more complicated. You can not even open a bank account without signing 3 times that your money does not come from the US.
- US companies have different values/ideas about social security/pension and co. Also work hours or more than 40 hour weeks
- I don't fully understand the diploma thing. You may think it is more important than it actually is in central Europe. It's common (because education is free or cheap), but by far not the only way to get in the Industrie.
My point is when you already live in modern place with high quality of living standards it's unlikely you'd find a US job, remote or not, tempting.
- There are plenty of smaller tech hubs with way higher quality of life like Zurich, Berlin
- Or others that are incredible affordable like Warsow, Bukarest, ..
- The USD is not looking healthy from CHFs perspective. I would have to expect to earn less every month.
- Getting paid from the US makes banking and taxes way more complicated. You can not even open a bank account without signing 3 times that your money does not come from the US.
- US companies have different values/ideas about social security/pension and co. Also work hours or more than 40 hour weeks
- I don't fully understand the diploma thing. You may think it is more important than it actually is in central Europe. It's common (because education is free or cheap), but by far not the only way to get in the Industrie.
My point is when you already live in modern place with high quality of living standards it's unlikely you'd find a US job, remote or not, tempting.
Don't get cocky. In Europe you literally can't get a job paying 200.000€ per year as an individual contributor, except for US companies.
I'd be very happy to be proven wrong and for the respective position to not be a beyond-senior-contributor thing (so maybe 0.0001% of jobs out there).
I'd be very happy to be proven wrong and for the respective position to not be a beyond-senior-contributor thing (so maybe 0.0001% of jobs out there).
I’d love to hear about those US based companies paying EU based ICs $200k / year and for the respective position to not be a beyond-senior-contributor thing (so maybe 0.0001% of jobs out there).
Switzerland, London, Dublin, Amsterdam, Munich, Luxembourg FAANG.
Without stock appreciation, I don't see that in Dublin.
Like, a friend recently got a FAANG offer for senior IC, which netted out at about 150k total compensation, which is far off from 200k.
You'd be looking at Staff (or years of stock appreciation) to hit 200k TC, which is a lot lower than one would expect in the US.
Like, a friend recently got a FAANG offer for senior IC, which netted out at about 150k total compensation, which is far off from 200k.
You'd be looking at Staff (or years of stock appreciation) to hit 200k TC, which is a lot lower than one would expect in the US.
Anyone can go look at compensation data for Google, Facebook, and Amazon on levels.fyi, filtering on "Ireland", and see that every single data point for senior engineers is 200k+.
Out of 310 rows, 42 are $200k+. Not that many.
To be fair, I was looking at the numbers in Euros (which is the most relevant to me), while I suspect other people are looking in dollars.
It does appear that $200k is achievable in Dublin, Approximately $150k seems a lot more likely though.
Clearly, I need to give up on DS and become a software engineer. I suppose I could get a leetcode subscription and start back reading Knuth again ;)
It does appear that $200k is achievable in Dublin, Approximately $150k seems a lot more likely though.
Clearly, I need to give up on DS and become a software engineer. I suppose I could get a leetcode subscription and start back reading Knuth again ;)
If you filter all available data points to just those located in Ireland, you get 310.
I was speaking specifically of senior engineers at Google, Facebook, and Amazon (which are the only FAANGs to have meaningful presence in Ireland), because that was the context I was replying to.
I was speaking specifically of senior engineers at Google, Facebook, and Amazon (which are the only FAANGs to have meaningful presence in Ireland), because that was the context I was replying to.
At $200k+ for individual contributor? But it is probably effectively 0.0001% of the jobs across the EU zone.
That was my point if you read my comments again.
US companies in Europe pay that much, but there are only a handful of jobs (let's say 0.01% of jobs), and outside of US companies you can't even find that. Outside of US companies you need to be, as I called it "beyond-senior-level-individual-contributor", i.e. a god in your field to reach that. So you have to add 2 more zeroes after the dot, 0.0001%. They're both even rarer and also <<super>> hard to get.
US companies in Europe pay that much, but there are only a handful of jobs (let's say 0.01% of jobs), and outside of US companies you can't even find that. Outside of US companies you need to be, as I called it "beyond-senior-level-individual-contributor", i.e. a god in your field to reach that. So you have to add 2 more zeroes after the dot, 0.0001%. They're both even rarer and also <<super>> hard to get.
> Don't get cocky. In Europe you literally can't get a job paying 200.000€ per year as an individual contributor, except for US companies
You can find these jobs in London. And there are plenty of examples of this in Amsterdam as well [1].
But the point is that in Europe you don't need to make as much as you'd have to make in the US to have the same or a higher quality of life.
If maximising your total compensation is your goal, then yeah you'll have to work in the US or for a US based company.
[1] https://techpays.eu/countries/netherlands#
You can find these jobs in London. And there are plenty of examples of this in Amsterdam as well [1].
But the point is that in Europe you don't need to make as much as you'd have to make in the US to have the same or a higher quality of life.
If maximising your total compensation is your goal, then yeah you'll have to work in the US or for a US based company.
[1] https://techpays.eu/countries/netherlands#
I don't think that's necessarily true in terms of QOL. Some European cities are very expensive to live in when you factor in taxes, like Zurich, or real estate, like London. Other places in the US, especially outside of San Francisco, NYC, Chicago, Seattle, LA, &c. are quite economical to live in if you're making the standard US-scale engineer salary and working remote from somewhere less urban (or let's just say less "sexy" in terms of lifestyle). It really depends on where you're talking about, so I don't think generalizations like this are all that useful. But I do think you're right that if we're talking about maximizing total comp, the US is where engineers are going to gravitate.
> Some European cities are very expensive to live in when you factor in taxes, like Zurich, or real estate, like London.
Yes, but we have generally better public transport in EU so it's easier to live farther away.
Yes, but we have generally better public transport in EU so it's easier to live farther away.
Comparable housing in those places is at least as expensive as in similar US cities.
And to have a similar quality of life to the average US FAANG employee you will still need north of 120k € per year in my experience.
Plus in your list half the positions are exactly what I was talking about, higher than senior IC. You need to be incredibly skilled (top 0.5-1%) or incredibly lucky to get them. Though I appreciate that the other half is there :-)
And to have a similar quality of life to the average US FAANG employee you will still need north of 120k € per year in my experience.
Plus in your list half the positions are exactly what I was talking about, higher than senior IC. You need to be incredibly skilled (top 0.5-1%) or incredibly lucky to get them. Though I appreciate that the other half is there :-)
I am sceptical. Reminds me of the predictions 20 years ago that outsourcing/offshoring would eliminate hands-on developer jobs in US/UK and other "expensive" countries.
Timezones, language factors, cultural factors, retention and exclusivity challenges plus basic logistics stuff like payroll and taxes all matter a lot. None of that's insurmountable but it takes a level of effort that can be very high.
And I say this as someone who quite likes working remotely.
I just don't see it disrupting the world in the extreme way it is sometimes portrayed.
Timezones, language factors, cultural factors, retention and exclusivity challenges plus basic logistics stuff like payroll and taxes all matter a lot. None of that's insurmountable but it takes a level of effort that can be very high.
And I say this as someone who quite likes working remotely.
I just don't see it disrupting the world in the extreme way it is sometimes portrayed.
I think it disrupts it in corners. I'm fully embracing it in the company I'm building, and several of my tech-startup-running friends are too, though I know plenty of people who aren't.
How are you dealing with local tax and labor laws?
My employer (mid-sized international software company) recently posted a revised work/travel/location policy. Basically, for anything over a month, we are only allowed to work in a locale where the company has an existing presence, and we have to notify the company in advance so they can plan payroll accordingly. I believe (thought not 100% sure) this is because they effectively transfer us to the local entity for the duration of the travel.
My employer (mid-sized international software company) recently posted a revised work/travel/location policy. Basically, for anything over a month, we are only allowed to work in a locale where the company has an existing presence, and we have to notify the company in advance so they can plan payroll accordingly. I believe (thought not 100% sure) this is because they effectively transfer us to the local entity for the duration of the travel.
The payroll, taxes, and labour laws are a big barrier at the moment. Even if you are happy hiring someone as an independent contractor to simplify the first two, how do you know that you aren't breaking local laws, e.g. about disguised employment? You still have to be familiar with local laws and regulations.
It seems like something that an intermediary could help with, and a few do exist, although they are pricey.
Simplification of regulations into a standard framework (without weakening them) would be a huge win here but I can't imagine that happening anytime soon, even in the EU, as labour laws are so sensitive.
It seems like something that an intermediary could help with, and a few do exist, although they are pricey.
Simplification of regulations into a standard framework (without weakening them) would be a huge win here but I can't imagine that happening anytime soon, even in the EU, as labour laws are so sensitive.
Those middle-man companies charge extraordinary margins. I don't know whether that is warranted. But you could pay $150/hr and get $15hr developer. Something's wrong with that math. I think that's because of lack of competition, basically they charge as much as possible and pay as little as possible, because they can.
Sounds like an opportunity for a tax-middle-man-as-a-service to disrupt that industry. The uber of outsourcing. I honestly don't know if this is a tongue-in-cheek reply or not.
These are called PEOs, or Professional Employment Organizations.
It is closer to 30% overhead, but much of that is based in providing benefits to the employee outside the country of origin. The cost is also relative to the country.
I suggest that it would be a WeWork/Regus situation. Nothing about WeWork was revolutionary - but if someone had enough buzz and funding they might be able to take over and expand the market.
It is closer to 30% overhead, but much of that is based in providing benefits to the employee outside the country of origin. The cost is also relative to the country.
I suggest that it would be a WeWork/Regus situation. Nothing about WeWork was revolutionary - but if someone had enough buzz and funding they might be able to take over and expand the market.
If you can outcompete local rates by 30%+, why would your employees complain about disguised employment?
Labour laws generally come into play when professions are poorly compensated or mistreated - pampered tech contractors being paid far above local market rate don't really fall into that category.
Labour laws generally come into play when professions are poorly compensated or mistreated - pampered tech contractors being paid far above local market rate don't really fall into that category.
The "independent contractor" bit of parent's post is what's relevant here.
In the UK the Government has clamped down on freelancing by saying, simplified grossly, if you look and act like an employee, but claim to be an independent contractor using alternative and often more favourable remuneration strategies, then you'll be firmly disagreed with and instead you'll be considered an employee.
The Govt considers this "disguised employment", not the freelancer.
More on this: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/understanding-off-payroll-workin...
But it's the key point parent is making - you need to know about this stuff for bringing in freelance talent in/from the UK. Not least because as a hirer/commissioning party the UK Govt will come after you if you have got it wrong!
In the UK the Government has clamped down on freelancing by saying, simplified grossly, if you look and act like an employee, but claim to be an independent contractor using alternative and often more favourable remuneration strategies, then you'll be firmly disagreed with and instead you'll be considered an employee.
The Govt considers this "disguised employment", not the freelancer.
More on this: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/understanding-off-payroll-workin...
But it's the key point parent is making - you need to know about this stuff for bringing in freelance talent in/from the UK. Not least because as a hirer/commissioning party the UK Govt will come after you if you have got it wrong!
In Romania ar least, the equivalent of the IRS doesn't like the disguised employment, because it leads to much lower taxes (8% vs 35%). There are around 7 criteria which are used to determine if a relationship is of employment or not. If they say you fulfil enough of those criteria, even if your contract is a freelance contract, you/the employer will have to pay the extra taxes.
> Reminds me of the predictions 20 years ago that outsourcing/offshoring would eliminate hands-on developer jobs in US/UK and other "expensive" countries.
Well in the corporate world offshoring really is everywhere. Even Goldman Sach's, #2 office for engineers in is Bangalore.
Well in the corporate world offshoring really is everywhere. Even Goldman Sach's, #2 office for engineers in is Bangalore.
Large corps have an economy of scale with this stuff. The smaller the company, the bigger a barrier it is
Maybe they've always existed and I'm only noticing now because of remote working but there's a whole industry of companies that provide HR and IT (helpdesk level) services for smaller, distributed companies so you don't have to take on that additional overhead yourself. I think there's definitely potential for the corporate equivalent of geeksquad in the remote working future.
Once you're big enough to have incurred the extra overhead of having satellite offices in very different timezones adding more of them doesn't really add much more overhead.
Worked in tech at a large financial - while it may be second largest by headcount, I would guess perhaps not by total number of MDs/Partners? In my experience at a similar company, the off-shore offices were not viewed as being innovative or producing the same level of value per-person. There were a lot of junior/mid-level people there, but the projects were typically being driven from the US/UK. How does that stack up with GS?
What I've seen from a financial company perspective is it's mainly cost center development that was handled by the overseas offices. Product and revenue development stayed in the US.
It's the same for most IT companies.
The actual core business, secret sauce, top level management stays in the home country (in this case the US), and the remote offices get the grunt work and crumbs.
The actual core business, secret sauce, top level management stays in the home country (in this case the US), and the remote offices get the grunt work and crumbs.
Sure but my main point is that hands-on tech jobs in NY, SF, London, etc, remain plentiful.
>> outsourcing/offshoring would eliminate hands-on developer jobs in US/UK and other "expensive" countries
Remember companies like EDS? During the 80's and 90's all the development and support for the 'big' companies in the USA was done by companies like EDS. They employed hundreds of thousands of people. Then in 2000's they started going to India etc.
Remember companies like EDS? During the 80's and 90's all the development and support for the 'big' companies in the USA was done by companies like EDS. They employed hundreds of thousands of people. Then in 2000's they started going to India etc.
And yet there's still no shortage of developer jobs in the US.
In any case, did EDS succeed? I had forgotten about them until your mention. Just because they offshored to India, it doesn't mean it worked and their business is flourishing.
I think the model has changed, at any rate. Companies like EDS are mostly obsolete. Sure, professional/technical services companies are still around in the form of IBM and their ilk, but they're not even remotely the dominant way of doing things.
In any case, did EDS succeed? I had forgotten about them until your mention. Just because they offshored to India, it doesn't mean it worked and their business is flourishing.
I think the model has changed, at any rate. Companies like EDS are mostly obsolete. Sure, professional/technical services companies are still around in the form of IBM and their ilk, but they're not even remotely the dominant way of doing things.
>> Companies like EDS are mostly obsolete.
How so?
They were bought and sold a few times and sort of exist as DXC right now. They claim to have 134,000 employees, I get approached by their recruiters a couple times a year.
How so?
They were bought and sold a few times and sort of exist as DXC right now. They claim to have 134,000 employees, I get approached by their recruiters a couple times a year.
They are insourcing to places like Louisiana
Oh totally. But hands-on tech jobs in the USA aren't eliminated, the sector is buoyant!
Colleagues in India feel like colleagues not "replacements" these days.
Colleagues in India feel like colleagues not "replacements" these days.
The demand for software developers and experts is a bottomless well right now in EVERY country. Hiring everywhere is a challenge. The problem is that software development is genuinely challenging. Training is a huge problem because programs can't keep up with the new technology. In the past 10 years there have been 3 separate revolutions in our technology stack and 2 in our project management. Everything is moving at a lightning pace.
The US doesn't really have a monopoly on global talent, we just pay the most for it wherever and whenever we can get a hold of it. We import talent at huge rates and we act as an education and training center for the world.
One thing I've seen with remote work is that wages have gone up. All of a sudden, developers that were making $60k in some sleepy town are getting hired by huge software companies for sometimes two to three times as much and they are still making less than their in-office counterparts.
The US doesn't really have a monopoly on global talent, we just pay the most for it wherever and whenever we can get a hold of it. We import talent at huge rates and we act as an education and training center for the world.
One thing I've seen with remote work is that wages have gone up. All of a sudden, developers that were making $60k in some sleepy town are getting hired by huge software companies for sometimes two to three times as much and they are still making less than their in-office counterparts.
It's not just the $60k developer in Sleepville, USA. Salaries in Bangalore have literally sky-rocketed.
Launching money into space is unlikely to help the situation.
That's about what it feels like dealing with comp over there. It's really insane. Great for the locals. Frustrating trying to hire and retain them from the US.
How high are they?
I haven't hired a developer in Bangalore in a few years now, but talking to colleagues, salaries are up 30% or more in the last 18 months. Enough so that our comp charts are way off and unusable.
If it really is a bottomless well everywhere, I must be doing something wrong...I just graduated from a well-regarded university in Germany with a degree in computer science and to be honest, it's not all that easy to get a job.
For example, in London, as someone with no experience, you'll probably have to go with a graduate scheme--mostly at tech companies and banks. But when you apply, you'll be barraged first by cognitive aptitude tests, followed by situational judgement tests, then a LeetCode/HackerRank test. Deutsche Bank additionally requires you to pre-record answers to interview questions that they pose in an e-mail. Perhaps afterwards you'll be invited to an on-site interview where you can repeat the process.
All of this machinery to filter out candidates doesn't scream out that they are that short on candidates.
For example, in London, as someone with no experience, you'll probably have to go with a graduate scheme--mostly at tech companies and banks. But when you apply, you'll be barraged first by cognitive aptitude tests, followed by situational judgement tests, then a LeetCode/HackerRank test. Deutsche Bank additionally requires you to pre-record answers to interview questions that they pose in an e-mail. Perhaps afterwards you'll be invited to an on-site interview where you can repeat the process.
All of this machinery to filter out candidates doesn't scream out that they are that short on candidates.
There is a shortage of people - with experience. A side effect of this is employers are less willing to take on less experienced staff as they lack the employees to act as mentors.
Getting my first job in tech was the hardest - but since it has been smooth sailing as I have a track record of experience & war stories to tell.
Getting my first job in tech was the hardest - but since it has been smooth sailing as I have a track record of experience & war stories to tell.
Interesting, my experience was the exact opposite. I recently got my bachelors in business information systems and finding a well paid job turned out to be fairly easy (although my working student relationship with my current company certainly contributed to the easy hiring process). This seems to be a fairly common experience, at least among my peers.
That's institutional inertia and bureaucracy. Don't mistake it for the typical case.
First job out of uni and can handle a lowerish salary? Find the startup scene in your area and network like crazy.
First job out of uni and can handle a lowerish salary? Find the startup scene in your area and network like crazy.
> All of this machinery to filter out candidates
That's because most of the people that graduate with a CS degree can't code and, what is worse, can't be taught how to code.
As an employer, it is also very expensive and time consuming to hire someone like that, since you're not just wasting money by paying someone who's non-productive, but you're also wasting the productive time of the team (or whoever is in charge of mentoring you) in a potentially fruitless attempt to teach you how to code.
Unless you have work experience, there's no quick way to tell if you'll be able to learn or not. Faced with that problem, a lot of big companies just throw all the cognitive tests they can find at you and hope for the best.
That's because most of the people that graduate with a CS degree can't code and, what is worse, can't be taught how to code.
As an employer, it is also very expensive and time consuming to hire someone like that, since you're not just wasting money by paying someone who's non-productive, but you're also wasting the productive time of the team (or whoever is in charge of mentoring you) in a potentially fruitless attempt to teach you how to code.
Unless you have work experience, there's no quick way to tell if you'll be able to learn or not. Faced with that problem, a lot of big companies just throw all the cognitive tests they can find at you and hope for the best.
Yeah, hiring processes for Software Developers is just the pits. Due to accounting rules, most established companies don't want to hire full time positions anymore because it reflects as a recurring expense which counts against profit making management look bad. Contractors can be applied against capital expenses making the figures look a lot better. "Sure we spent $5 million extra on the project because contractors are expensive, but we made $3 million more in profits! What do you mean who will maintain it?"
The result is that we aren't maintaining core groups of subject matter experts anymore. Instead the idea is that teams are interchangeable and software should be well documented and replaceable. Developers are expected to be able to pick up immediately and need to have the skills ahead of time. So there is no mentoring, skills development, core subject matter experts, or entry level positions for college graduates in most companies.
This means that things will suck for anyone with less that two years experience. Also it means that employees will have zero loyalty and company IT culture will rot like an old tomato in the sun. However, once you get that initial experience you will be getting offers to apply constantly from your company's competitors looking for someone.
If you want to find a company to look for, the big banks and such will be a hard pull for entry level work. Working as a contractor or at a smaller company with poor capitalization may be easier to get into. Unfortunately degrees don't mean much anymore unless your senior project was something relevant to industry like Kubernetes, AWS, Kafka, etc...
The result is that we aren't maintaining core groups of subject matter experts anymore. Instead the idea is that teams are interchangeable and software should be well documented and replaceable. Developers are expected to be able to pick up immediately and need to have the skills ahead of time. So there is no mentoring, skills development, core subject matter experts, or entry level positions for college graduates in most companies.
This means that things will suck for anyone with less that two years experience. Also it means that employees will have zero loyalty and company IT culture will rot like an old tomato in the sun. However, once you get that initial experience you will be getting offers to apply constantly from your company's competitors looking for someone.
If you want to find a company to look for, the big banks and such will be a hard pull for entry level work. Working as a contractor or at a smaller company with poor capitalization may be easier to get into. Unfortunately degrees don't mean much anymore unless your senior project was something relevant to industry like Kubernetes, AWS, Kafka, etc...
Get the first job in the field, almost no matter what.
Once you have that first job and about 1 year of experience, things become much easier.
Also, practice interviews, find books, courses, etc.
Once you have that first job and about 1 year of experience, things become much easier.
Also, practice interviews, find books, courses, etc.
No no no no. Let's go down the list, shall we. Remember, COVID or not, remote work trend accelerating or not, things have not changed as much as they seem:
* People STILL want to migrate to the US and it will remain one of the top choices. People move her for economic/job opportunities, sure, but that's not all.
* Outsourcing (or hiring remote teams in remote offices), as well as setting up remote and international offices has been going on for .... I can't even remember. 100 years? This was already happening and will keep happening.
* Timezones are a physical problem and cannot be fixed. Sorry. Remote work or not, people don't want to work at 1 AM so they can talk to another team half-way around the world at 7 AM. This was true yesterday and it will remain true today.
* Culture issues will remain. True yesterday. True today.
* Language issues will remain. True yesterday. True today.
* US will continue to remain a country people WANT to live in and stay in once they are here. Remote work will certainly allow some people to move abroad and continue working because that's something they really want. But the data definitely doesn't suggest some sea change here. True yesterday. Remains largely true today.
* People STILL want to migrate to the US and it will remain one of the top choices. People move her for economic/job opportunities, sure, but that's not all.
* Outsourcing (or hiring remote teams in remote offices), as well as setting up remote and international offices has been going on for .... I can't even remember. 100 years? This was already happening and will keep happening.
* Timezones are a physical problem and cannot be fixed. Sorry. Remote work or not, people don't want to work at 1 AM so they can talk to another team half-way around the world at 7 AM. This was true yesterday and it will remain true today.
* Culture issues will remain. True yesterday. True today.
* Language issues will remain. True yesterday. True today.
* US will continue to remain a country people WANT to live in and stay in once they are here. Remote work will certainly allow some people to move abroad and continue working because that's something they really want. But the data definitely doesn't suggest some sea change here. True yesterday. Remains largely true today.
I think the realization people had through the pandemic is that a very large part of the western world is equally livable. Apart from economic opportunity, what else is there on US soil that makes it comparably preferable? And i think you re forgetting that the US has been outsourcing its manufacturing to china for decades, and china is , what 15 hours difference? Most of work is asynchronous
I think the US has nothing to fear from remote work -- they will outsource even more work and again benefit from the arbitrage. But it is true that it will diminish their talent advantage, and that will be good for them.
I think the US has nothing to fear from remote work -- they will outsource even more work and again benefit from the arbitrage. But it is true that it will diminish their talent advantage, and that will be good for them.
But it's good for exactly who they are - the management. As long as Americans are replaced time and again, it changes the US. We used to care for each other. I think the fact that the greed machine is so precise and backstabbing and self-documented and codified there's nothing to tell it to stop hiring people outside the US simply for cheaper labor.
I keep seeing people say that the economy is not a zero sum game - but all I see is people getting poorer and offered worse jobs with fewer benefits.
I think however there is ONE potential out: Building HOMES. It seems that the people that DO have a really high paying job is willing to pay 1M for a 2 bedroom house. I think the next major thing is for people to pick up the hammer and build houses for rich people wanting their second and third home. Next change for the laws? Make it easier to get a Gen-Con license...?
I keep seeing people say that the economy is not a zero sum game - but all I see is people getting poorer and offered worse jobs with fewer benefits.
I think however there is ONE potential out: Building HOMES. It seems that the people that DO have a really high paying job is willing to pay 1M for a 2 bedroom house. I think the next major thing is for people to pick up the hammer and build houses for rich people wanting their second and third home. Next change for the laws? Make it easier to get a Gen-Con license...?
In ten years robots will take over many of the current construction jobs.
Which jobs specifically? Foundations, Framing, Painting, Placing Windows, Doors, Sealing, Insulation, Drywall, Plumbing, Electrical?
If I were to take a shot in the dark it would be less than 1% of the jobs. I can see painting robots but even that would be a miserable robot that would look good in a youtube video but when you ask the crew that's forced to use it, they will tell you clearing the paint clogs is taking more time than rolling/spraying the wall themselves.
If I were to take a shot in the dark it would be less than 1% of the jobs. I can see painting robots but even that would be a miserable robot that would look good in a youtube video but when you ask the crew that's forced to use it, they will tell you clearing the paint clogs is taking more time than rolling/spraying the wall themselves.
> As long as Americans are replaced time and again, it changes the US. We used to care for each other. I think the fact that the greed machine is so precise and backstabbing and self-documented and codified there's nothing to tell it to stop hiring people outside the US simply for cheaper labor.
Heh, the bit about caring... Let's go:
* strike busters (sometimes extremely violent, there are documented case of actual cannons or bombers)
* rampant child labor
* super high crime rates
I think perception of the past is often affected by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fading_affect_bias :
> The fading affect bias, more commonly known as FAB, is a psychological phenomenon in which memories associated with negative emotions tend to be forgotten more quickly than those associated with positive emotions.
i.e. we forget the bad parts faster.
Heh, the bit about caring... Let's go:
* strike busters (sometimes extremely violent, there are documented case of actual cannons or bombers)
* rampant child labor
* super high crime rates
I think perception of the past is often affected by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fading_affect_bias :
> The fading affect bias, more commonly known as FAB, is a psychological phenomenon in which memories associated with negative emotions tend to be forgotten more quickly than those associated with positive emotions.
i.e. we forget the bad parts faster.
Reading this post it occurred to me that if huge levels of remote work become the norm, there may be consequences for what 'rights' remote workers may obtain at the 'host' richer countries. I mean, somewhat like large companies effectively influenced the mechanisms for immigration, right?
The same may happen wrt. access to financial services (e.g. Facebook employees around the world may eventually be indistinguishable from US citizens for the purpose of opening bank accounts or owning property in the US, etc.), for example. Maybe a particularly bad example because taxation is very complicated and this messes with that too directly
Perhaps a better example would relate to access to State-sponsored programs like healthcare. Imagine future in which Amazon, Facebook, Google lobby for allowing a knowledge worker to travel from their country of residence to their country of work to utilize a governmental program that was previously reserved to citizens only. (Add a bit about actual citizens losing that right if they are 'unproductive' and you got yourself a setting for a sci-fi story)
It's late and maybe I'm not making much sense, I don't know. I'm aware there are a million possible reasons why this should not come to pass but at least on law & regulation I think that if the incentives of the companies align with 'extending rights of remote workers towards citizenship-like rights', then law and legislation will be changed via lobbying, etc. without much ordinary citizens can do about it
I offer no judgment of value - simply pointing out something that we may see happen over the next years or decade
The same may happen wrt. access to financial services (e.g. Facebook employees around the world may eventually be indistinguishable from US citizens for the purpose of opening bank accounts or owning property in the US, etc.), for example. Maybe a particularly bad example because taxation is very complicated and this messes with that too directly
Perhaps a better example would relate to access to State-sponsored programs like healthcare. Imagine future in which Amazon, Facebook, Google lobby for allowing a knowledge worker to travel from their country of residence to their country of work to utilize a governmental program that was previously reserved to citizens only. (Add a bit about actual citizens losing that right if they are 'unproductive' and you got yourself a setting for a sci-fi story)
It's late and maybe I'm not making much sense, I don't know. I'm aware there are a million possible reasons why this should not come to pass but at least on law & regulation I think that if the incentives of the companies align with 'extending rights of remote workers towards citizenship-like rights', then law and legislation will be changed via lobbying, etc. without much ordinary citizens can do about it
I offer no judgment of value - simply pointing out something that we may see happen over the next years or decade
Ever since i read Snowcrash I've thought about this. What if major corps developed transnational power: get hired in India, get benefits that include expedited visa processing, global health insurance coverage, company schools or online curricula for children of employees. I mean this exists for senior execs, how would it look when extended to the FAANG rank and file?
Sort of a mobility-focused benefits package. Unlikely, incredibly unfeasible but interesting to ponder.
Sort of a mobility-focused benefits package. Unlikely, incredibly unfeasible but interesting to ponder.
I was somehow unfamiliar with Snow Crash. Thanks for the pointer!
Also - yes, precisely! The internet abounds with posts about how Apple's market cap is larger than most countries GDP already. If the trend of tech-giants growth keeps pace, we may have multi-trillion dollar companies whose revenue will rival nations' GDPs.
At that point, the 'guild' of workers around the world will may have enough political power to be backed by the company, which will have enough leverage to influence law everywhere.
Also - yes, precisely! The internet abounds with posts about how Apple's market cap is larger than most countries GDP already. If the trend of tech-giants growth keeps pace, we may have multi-trillion dollar companies whose revenue will rival nations' GDPs.
At that point, the 'guild' of workers around the world will may have enough political power to be backed by the company, which will have enough leverage to influence law everywhere.
I mean, maybe?
We had an offshore subsidiary in India. The problems with it were LEGION.
1. The key issue was overall quality. I'm sure it's possible to get good code out of an offshore team, but we couldn't. Their contributions to our code base comprise the lion's share of the technical debt we're carrying.
2. Time. Working asynchronously is really, really hard, even without any other issues floating around. I wouldn't want to work async with the best devs I've ever known, let alone a "regular" dev.
3. Culture. Local cultural differences can KILL developmental communication. If the local customs discourage saying "no, I don't understand" or "no, we can't do it that way" or whatever, then you end up with bad code and a worse product even if you get anything at all out of it. (I have my biases here, but I'm trying to frame this as a mismatch of expectations and not, as some might, an example one way being Good and the other Bad.)
I might be willing to work with proven, reliable, highly communicative resources at a 6 hour offset, but a new hire on the other side of the planet working local hours? No way.
We had an offshore subsidiary in India. The problems with it were LEGION.
1. The key issue was overall quality. I'm sure it's possible to get good code out of an offshore team, but we couldn't. Their contributions to our code base comprise the lion's share of the technical debt we're carrying.
2. Time. Working asynchronously is really, really hard, even without any other issues floating around. I wouldn't want to work async with the best devs I've ever known, let alone a "regular" dev.
3. Culture. Local cultural differences can KILL developmental communication. If the local customs discourage saying "no, I don't understand" or "no, we can't do it that way" or whatever, then you end up with bad code and a worse product even if you get anything at all out of it. (I have my biases here, but I'm trying to frame this as a mismatch of expectations and not, as some might, an example one way being Good and the other Bad.)
I might be willing to work with proven, reliable, highly communicative resources at a 6 hour offset, but a new hire on the other side of the planet working local hours? No way.
> I'm sure it's possible to get good code out of an offshore team, but we couldn't.
That depends on the salary, how much were you offering?
That depends on the salary, how much were you offering?
EXTREMELY competitive salaries. The company owner believes in paying for talent.
EXTREMELY competitive salaries does not say anything.
You have companies like Google and Microsoft in India paying very well and you have the IT consulting giants like Infosys, TCS etc who pay peanuts yet they still find employees but they have a bad reputation.
Was your company paying Google level salaries or the TCS level salaries?
Was your company paying Google level salaries or the TCS level salaries?
God, I hate HN discourse sometimes.
I guess you'll just have to take my word for it. Or not, Internet Stranger.
I guess you'll just have to take my word for it. Or not, Internet Stranger.
In the short term, I think it's going to be a lot harder than this article lets on, but long term, it is abundantly clear: cushy developer jobs in the US are on borrowed time. Salaries may continue to go up for a little while longer, but they will fall to reflect the rest of the world catching up with the US. And that's a scary prospect for those under 35 now. And I don't think there's a way out of it. We embrace remote, but at the cost of demise.
I disagree, I don't see how the supply/demand ratio of talent will significantly change by remote work.
Companies will pick from a larger pool of people. People will pick from a larger pool of companies.
Companies will pick from a larger pool of people. People will pick from a larger pool of companies.
This is a good point, the ratio increases both ways.
Except that developers from countries that earn on average less than their US counterparts have an incentive to work for a US company remotely but a developer from the US does not have many incentives to work for less for a company abroad
The politicians will fight back with work visas and limits etc. protecting domestic work forces should be a primary concern for politicians.
Advancing the interests of all citizens, not just protecting the outsized benefits of one group, should be the primary concern for politicians. Think of how much boring process automation software could be written for so many businesses, if development were cheaper.
This was the logic used for outsourcing manufacturing. Now we American consumers can get as many low-quality plastic toys as we want at bargain basement prices and throw away perfectly functional electronic devices every few years in order to get newer, shiner ones. The cost was cutting a swath of destruction across hundreds of formerly vibrant towns across the middle of the country, which are now home mainly to hopelessness and drug addiction. I'm not sure the trade-off was worth it.
Visas and similar restrictions are not a factor for remote work.
Yes, they are. Having an LLC based in Texas, trying to hiring a remote employee in NYC. I have to comply with all local NYC laws and taxes. Luckily it's a developer. If it was a sales person, it could make the whole company liable for income tax in New York state.
Even worse when you talk international. An Amazon USA based employee is forbidden from working remotely in India, because of all the legal issues it would cause for Amazon USA.
It's a very complicated issue, in which each individual government is fighting to get a slice of the tax pie. Reference article: https://therealdeal.com/2021/05/07/ny-tax-officials-crack-do...
Even worse when you talk international. An Amazon USA based employee is forbidden from working remotely in India, because of all the legal issues it would cause for Amazon USA.
It's a very complicated issue, in which each individual government is fighting to get a slice of the tax pie. Reference article: https://therealdeal.com/2021/05/07/ny-tax-officials-crack-do...
Why don't you hire them as a contractor?
Not everyone wants to work as a contractor. It also limits the amount of control you have over their output. It also is not a complete failsafe, as the state can say you treated them like an employee, thus they are an employee.
What does any of that have to do with visas?
It is not in the interest of american people to make goods and services consumed by americans more expensive.
See: Tariffs, Mercantilism, Imports.
See: Tariffs, Mercantilism, Imports.
There's many other companies abroad capable of offering compensations that can compete with the US.
Anecdotal, but plenty of contacts who would have never accepted an on-site position in UAE, Hong Kong, Germany (for reasons ranging from personal, political, or just sheer affordability), and are now contracting as individuals at companies based in such regions, for substantially above the Bay Area average for their experience.
Anecdotal, but plenty of contacts who would have never accepted an on-site position in UAE, Hong Kong, Germany (for reasons ranging from personal, political, or just sheer affordability), and are now contracting as individuals at companies based in such regions, for substantially above the Bay Area average for their experience.
There is quiet some supply but the demand is in capable and a bit more senior people, I'm told.
But hey if it means with remote work US tech company can fish for Dutch talent and raise the average pay here in the Netherlands I'm all for it.
Already had a talk with friends about it, before the pandemic remote gig work was hard where we live, but now that working from home is more accepted. It should be a lot more attractive for urban companies to hire remote workers in the rural parts.
Already had a talk with friends about it, before the pandemic remote gig work was hard where we live, but now that working from home is more accepted. It should be a lot more attractive for urban companies to hire remote workers in the rural parts.
For americans this sounds like horror but for the international perspective this sounds wonderful (and a fair readjustment for work that we always felt was no different than our american counterparts). Just pointing out the semi obvious thing that the majority who reads this will see it as fantastic news.
Yep. Every time I see a US-focused article complaining about pay adjustments when people move to new regions to work remotely I just wonder where everybody has been for all these years where their coworkers in London or Vancouver are getting paid 50% of their wage for the same work.
Is there any extra cost to hiring non-American workers though? I do wonder if we’ll have some politicians who will try to make it harder for companies to just shortcut to cheap labor and try to never use American workers. But I also see foreign workers at my shop demanding what we make and getting it, which I think is great and I hope that trend holds. Then there’s no cheap labor alternative and comes down to merit.
However… when you mix in the politics of Diversity and Inclusion that is sweeping our industry right now, it will be more enticing and possible to hire someone who isn’t an evil white person.
However… when you mix in the politics of Diversity and Inclusion that is sweeping our industry right now, it will be more enticing and possible to hire someone who isn’t an evil white person.
I think the whole “evil white person” demeans the effort to be inclusive. Nobody is saying white men are evil when they hire a diverse candidate. They are just valuing having a diverse workplace over traditionally looked at traits.
I've been hearing a version of this since the early 2000's, always with a PS "this time its going to happen for real guys" .
For some people, the solution may be the management track. If developer salaries fall, there will be more developers hired, who will need managers. US candidates (for now) will have the advantage there.
The Internet is global, and there's been nothing stopping someone in India, for example, from starting the next Facebook. Ironically, if the world was catching up to the US then it wouldn't be US companies doing the hiring, making the whole thing a moot point.
This is overly cynical and alarmist. Outsourcing has been a thing for a long time and its results have also been known for a long time.
Companies, for lack of a better term, have "fucked around and found out" by not going (relatively) local and depending on offshoring (even nearshoring) to their ultimate detriment. This isn't to say that companies that are remote (as in geographically) don't now have a bigger pool but large and high functioning tech companies are not going to all of a sudden abandon home-grown talent for offshoring.
Companies, for lack of a better term, have "fucked around and found out" by not going (relatively) local and depending on offshoring (even nearshoring) to their ultimate detriment. This isn't to say that companies that are remote (as in geographically) don't now have a bigger pool but large and high functioning tech companies are not going to all of a sudden abandon home-grown talent for offshoring.
> Outsourcing
This isn't outsourcing, this is hiring to work for the company's own teams based in the US.
> offshoring
This isn't offshoring in traditional terms, the projects stay in the US and are managed from there, with team members from all over the place.
This isn't outsourcing, this is hiring to work for the company's own teams based in the US.
> offshoring
This isn't offshoring in traditional terms, the projects stay in the US and are managed from there, with team members from all over the place.
Working from home hasn't changed the dynamics of having team members all over the world. There are countless issues creating an effective team spread around the globe from Language Barriers and Time Zones to Labor Laws (ex. losing Nordic employees for 2 months every summer)
> Salaries may continue to go up for a little while longer, but they will fall to reflect the rest of the world catching up with the US.
This has never happened in US history. The upward trend has stopped. Employment outside the US has grown much faster. Other countries have caught up. But wages in large sectors haven't gone down in any sector I'm aware of. And MAGMA all have over 100,000 software engineer employees and make huge profits on them. Google makes over a million dollars per software engineer. There's a lot of room for wages to go up.
This has never happened in US history. The upward trend has stopped. Employment outside the US has grown much faster. Other countries have caught up. But wages in large sectors haven't gone down in any sector I'm aware of. And MAGMA all have over 100,000 software engineer employees and make huge profits on them. Google makes over a million dollars per software engineer. There's a lot of room for wages to go up.
> cushy developer jobs in the US are on borrowed time
Maybe. But I've been hearing that since the early 90's.
Maybe. But I've been hearing that since the early 90's.
In 2010, being an independent developer for a startup in the US in argentina meant a 2-3k monthly wage. It is now at 5~6k, and plenty of opportunities to make 10k monthly.
Bear in mind this pays <5% tax and you can maintain a whole family, pay for a house, food etc for 2k a month.
This arbitrage has always been there and its become way easier to manage after the remote shift.
Bear in mind this pays <5% tax and you can maintain a whole family, pay for a house, food etc for 2k a month.
This arbitrage has always been there and its become way easier to manage after the remote shift.
Isn't this assuming that there are enough developers worldwide to satisfy the demand in the US? I think the reality is that there are not and will not for a long time.
Canadian Company: Our upper bound is 90k American, you get no equity, you have to work Eastern Time Zone
US Company: Our mid bound is 200k American, you get equity, you have to be available +/- 4 hours from the time zone of your core team for 3 days a week.
Its not even close. And if we are talking about raising money - just lol. Canadian VCs treat their investment like they are buying into a 200 year old insurance company for a check in the 50k range.
Turning around a company / industry culture away from a 1950s factory model is very hard, and its even hard for companies who allegedly want to compete against SV firms.
Its not even close. And if we are talking about raising money - just lol. Canadian VCs treat their investment like they are buying into a 200 year old insurance company for a check in the 50k range.
Turning around a company / industry culture away from a 1950s factory model is very hard, and its even hard for companies who allegedly want to compete against SV firms.
100% true. If this WFH Remote trend continues the software industry in Canada is going to get a rude awakening. I know many people walking away from jobs here to go work remote for US companies for a lot more pay.
Only way to do really well in Canada is to work for a FAANG with HQ here, as they tend to bring a bit of their comp structure with them. Or consult. But even at the FAANG I work for there's been people leaving to go remote for same or more pay.
From my experience with the startup world in Toronto (over 10 years ago, so), the whole Canadian VC industry & startup world was nepotistic. All went to private school together, and role playing a part.
Only way to do really well in Canada is to work for a FAANG with HQ here, as they tend to bring a bit of their comp structure with them. Or consult. But even at the FAANG I work for there's been people leaving to go remote for same or more pay.
From my experience with the startup world in Toronto (over 10 years ago, so), the whole Canadian VC industry & startup world was nepotistic. All went to private school together, and role playing a part.
Yea pretty much, Canadian VC is just an employment scheme for failkids + some guy who cashed out 20 years ago on yahoo or whatever to coast around.
Ehhh... Have been hearing some variation of this for 20 years. Canada and Singapore already have some tech presence (Singapore is huge for banking), so I don't think those are a particularly bold prediction.
I would love for the Caribbean to become a thing but it seems less likely given the issues with governmental stability and severe weather.
Just observing the companies I've worked for, I've also seen it's much easier to get hired for an on-prem job and transition to remote after proving your capabilities than to get hired fully remote from the start (minus the past 18 months). I wouldn't be entirely surprised if the result is many current U.S. residents moving to those destinations, moreso than locals being hired remotely.
I would love for the Caribbean to become a thing but it seems less likely given the issues with governmental stability and severe weather.
Just observing the companies I've worked for, I've also seen it's much easier to get hired for an on-prem job and transition to remote after proving your capabilities than to get hired fully remote from the start (minus the past 18 months). I wouldn't be entirely surprised if the result is many current U.S. residents moving to those destinations, moreso than locals being hired remotely.
The pandemic (finally) forced most companies to handle remote work, but remotely onboarding new employees is still terrible at most places.
What you've described will become common. Start a job in the flesh, get trained up and productive, then you're free to move. It will probably be harder for you to get promoted if you're working remotely, but you'll also be providing less value because you won't be there to help bring the new hires up to speed.
Companies that learn to onboard new employees remotely from the outset, efficiently and effectively, will have a monstrous competitive advantage in the coming years.
What you've described will become common. Start a job in the flesh, get trained up and productive, then you're free to move. It will probably be harder for you to get promoted if you're working remotely, but you'll also be providing less value because you won't be there to help bring the new hires up to speed.
Companies that learn to onboard new employees remotely from the outset, efficiently and effectively, will have a monstrous competitive advantage in the coming years.
I feel like when it comes to remote work the great divider will be 'cost of living' versus attained wages (and not 'talent.') As in: suppose I live in India where the cost of living is low. Due to wage arbitrage I can satisfy my cost of living quite easily by taking on low skilled software contracts. In this position, I am happy to take on the work because it more than covers my basic needs. On the other hand, if I want to take on more skilled work I'll have to specialize.
Specialization means spending even more time to learn skills at the expense of earning money. So it costs money to specialise. And in poorer countries where the population is high, the competition for jobs will be high, and the less money there will be left over to invest in specialization. So by virtue of being born in a poorer country one is less well-off when it comes to specialization.
The West won't be at risk of 'losing' jobs to remote work because we're not competing for the same jobs. Specialization will set the bar for hiring as it always has done, and the same scarce pool of talent will have to be used to fill these jobs. There will be a greater number of choices for specialized engineers to fill-- and it will mean more local jobs get filled by a more diverse pool of candidates. Looking at just local jobs would seem to imply that we're worse off, but not when you compare the number of new jobs that will be open to qualified engineers as a whole.
Specialization means spending even more time to learn skills at the expense of earning money. So it costs money to specialise. And in poorer countries where the population is high, the competition for jobs will be high, and the less money there will be left over to invest in specialization. So by virtue of being born in a poorer country one is less well-off when it comes to specialization.
The West won't be at risk of 'losing' jobs to remote work because we're not competing for the same jobs. Specialization will set the bar for hiring as it always has done, and the same scarce pool of talent will have to be used to fill these jobs. There will be a greater number of choices for specialized engineers to fill-- and it will mean more local jobs get filled by a more diverse pool of candidates. Looking at just local jobs would seem to imply that we're worse off, but not when you compare the number of new jobs that will be open to qualified engineers as a whole.
This is a good point but from what I understand about the tech ecosystem in India and China - they are both producing so many engineers that some are bound to specialize.
And they are. You will find amazing cloud provider specialists in those countries these days.
And they are. You will find amazing cloud provider specialists in those countries these days.
In countries like New Zealand and (to a lesser extent) Australia, cost of living is Higher while local wages are lower.
This may seem like a pedantic point, but companies don't base compensation on anything as 'fair' as CoL. It's all about market rates.
This may seem like a pedantic point, but companies don't base compensation on anything as 'fair' as CoL. It's all about market rates.
I don't believe the US has a monopoly on talent.
The US has a monopoly on being able to go to market.
US corporations are extremely efficient getting funds, putting that capital to work, and deliver a product people want to buy.
Historically they got that advantage because (among other factors) their internal market is HUGE, and successful US products were also appealing in other countries.
As I said there are other factors as well (regulations, overseas taxation, and exports to name a few).
The US has a monopoly on being able to go to market.
US corporations are extremely efficient getting funds, putting that capital to work, and deliver a product people want to buy.
Historically they got that advantage because (among other factors) their internal market is HUGE, and successful US products were also appealing in other countries.
As I said there are other factors as well (regulations, overseas taxation, and exports to name a few).
The EU has a similarly sized internal market, but it's consistently self-sabotaging on many levels (EU, countries, state, local) so does not realize a lot of the benefits it could get.
Self-sabotaging in what ways?
The newest example would be Europe's Digital Services Act. Here is an article by Cory Doctorow about it: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/10/europes-digital-servic...
The differences in languages, culture, and legal aspects mean that at least for consumer-oriented startups EU is very much not a single market yet. There has been a lot of progress over the last decade or two, but when starting a company you still pretty much start with the market of a single country and have to do a bunch of work, adjustments and local hiring to expand to a neighboring EU country.
Its a winner takes all and the winners have been decided 20 years ago here in the west. You need something like what China did with a closed off garden where their own thousand flowers can bloom and grow strong enough to compete on the global market.
China has a huge internal economy. You won’t be able to replicate that in many a country. At all. You’ll end up with useless, expensive, outmoded products that seem to only ever get worse. (Speaking from personal experience.)
True but to have fall back option for US big tech is worth the "waste of" resources. Imaging if the US does to the EU what it did to Huawei the EU would break in 2 weeks.
Just like sovereignty is important the same counts in cyberspace, where being data sovereignty is as much if not more important in the future.
Just like sovereignty is important the same counts in cyberspace, where being data sovereignty is as much if not more important in the future.
Does the US have a monopoly on global talent that I'm unaware of?
Apparently we are just that awesome.
FAANGs retain a lot of this talent I guess
Monopoly is an exaggeration, but the US does still attract a staggeringly disproportionate fraction of developers from all over the world.
That would depend upon the definition of talent. My long mega corporate experience has taught me there isn't any practical different between CS graduates (bachelors level only) from the US and India once they enter the real world. It is generally Java focused with some C++ thrown in and for everything else that isn't Java or C++ you make it look like Java as much as possible.
I have also noticed many generalized similarities between self-taught developers from the US and India in how they proceed against a problem as well. The CS educated developers are convention focused in that there is a certain way to solve problems regardless of the problem while the self taught developers tend to focus more on the goal, the solution.
I have also noticed many generalized similarities between self-taught developers from the US and India in how they proceed against a problem as well. The CS educated developers are convention focused in that there is a certain way to solve problems regardless of the problem while the self taught developers tend to focus more on the goal, the solution.
The US seems to have a monopoly on the ability to pay top talent (at least in the west).
At the high end of the talent pool, I don't think opening up is going to have a significant impact. We're mostly already internationally mobile or can demand competitive salaries, and a new supply of mid-tier talent will only create more capital-deploying opportunities.
I'm a computer vision person with a good grasp on 3d geometry, SLAM, linear algebra, statistics, filtering, etc.
We've had budget and I've been trying to hire another me for at least half a year with no luck (western Europe). Thousands of applicants and the couple of interesting candidates were snapped up before we could move (and likely for more than we could pay).
I'm about to leave and go on the job market, and I have no concerns whatsoever about landing a high paying job. It also helps that I have ties to the bay area and am more than willing to go back.
At the high end of the talent pool, I don't think opening up is going to have a significant impact. We're mostly already internationally mobile or can demand competitive salaries, and a new supply of mid-tier talent will only create more capital-deploying opportunities.
I'm a computer vision person with a good grasp on 3d geometry, SLAM, linear algebra, statistics, filtering, etc.
We've had budget and I've been trying to hire another me for at least half a year with no luck (western Europe). Thousands of applicants and the couple of interesting candidates were snapped up before we could move (and likely for more than we could pay).
I'm about to leave and go on the job market, and I have no concerns whatsoever about landing a high paying job. It also helps that I have ties to the bay area and am more than willing to go back.
Other than the 3D skills, these are mostly run of the mill skills for a mathematics major. Why not train a decent math major in the 3D skills?
Now the company is losing you and they have lost 6 months of time to train a new employee. Many companies are short-sighted and unwilling to accept candidates that don’t match exact specifications to their own detriment.
Now the company is losing you and they have lost 6 months of time to train a new employee. Many companies are short-sighted and unwilling to accept candidates that don’t match exact specifications to their own detriment.
Training someone is a) time-consuming b) not a guarantee of success. Yes, perhaps the OP would take that approach, with hind sight being 20/20, but hardly the obvious conclusion to come to 6 months ago.
I have been patiently training someone for 4 months. He's not getting it. He's not ready to deliver. Whether that's a reflection of my training skills, or him, i dunno. Whatever, but I'm tired, and now have to go through the pain of letting him go and beginning the search anew. Wish i hadn't taken the risk.
I have been patiently training someone for 4 months. He's not getting it. He's not ready to deliver. Whether that's a reflection of my training skills, or him, i dunno. Whatever, but I'm tired, and now have to go through the pain of letting him go and beginning the search anew. Wish i hadn't taken the risk.
As someone working remotely, I'd be hard pressed to work for a non-US company, because other places in my experience don't pay as well.
US definitely pays a lot higher than other markets, and that definitely talks.
As long as noone else is able/willing to match pay - kinda. In Poland for example normal pay is $5K but for US startups you can get $10K. Only TikTok or Switzerland has offers in this range.
Ireland aside from usual suspects Stripe, Workday and a bunch of others you can get 200K total comp
$5K is normal pay in Poland? that's around 9 minimal wages
They mean a developer’s pay. Yes, the disproportion between the IT and other areas is significant.
If you're talking about tech hubs in the US, you can definitely get more than 10k USD/month as an experienced dev at a startup.
Not intending to sound completely clueless about the world, but these wages you're quoting...is that USD per month? That sounds way off for a yearly salary.
Yes, per month for very senior people.
Gotcha - thanks for clarifying. We in the US typically talk in yearly salaries, so I assumed that on first read and felt it had to be way off.
Something to note is that the US culture in general seems to value technical expertise higher than some other cultures. For example, it's been a common experience for me to have Doctors and Dentists quiz me about my work and make statements that they wish they could have followed a similar career path. I doubt that would ever happen in England.
I see many people here comparing US with EU in term of wages. But for the comparation to work taxes, healthcare, education, and subsidizing several public services like transport or heating should be taken into account.
Also, the comparation should take into consideration PPP.
$300 000 pre-taxes in US is not 3x $100 000 after-taxes in EU. Especially if you adjust for other factors.
Also, the comparation should take into consideration PPP.
$300 000 pre-taxes in US is not 3x $100 000 after-taxes in EU. Especially if you adjust for other factors.
By my estimation, even factoring in the cost of living, medical insurance, tax differences etc, people working in the Bay area are taking home twice what an equally qualified dev would take home in say, London.
If anything the contrast is even more stark across the EU
If anything the contrast is even more stark across the EU
They also seem to work very long hours with long commutes and get few vacations. When I see that the average cost of a house in Cupertino is 2.5 million dollars for example, I would imagine most of those Apple engineers live far away.
Never forget that "Free Dinner" is a big "perk" of work in FAANG land. I can't comprehend the messed up work life balance that makes that make sense
Why not? The vast majority of people who ate dinner at Google immediately went home afterwards. My daily routine was to show up at 11, check email, eat lunch, work until 6:30ish, eat dinner, and then go home.
It has been a few years since I lived in the South Bay, but generally Apple engineers would live somewhere reasonably local. A few would choose to commute from Gillroy or Santa Cruz for sure, but it's not like there are only zillionaires living in Cupertino and Santa Clara. Those are pretty mid-range places to live.
I think the "equally qualified" point you're making is highly disingenuous.
Qualified doesn't mean you can churn out so many lines of code or have X years of experience at a company or whatever, it means you have right kind of experience. To a big company like Facebook or Google, someone from SV who has a few years in the local industry has more relevant "experience" to the position than someone in London with 10 years at a financial firm.
Qualified doesn't mean you can churn out so many lines of code or have X years of experience at a company or whatever, it means you have right kind of experience. To a big company like Facebook or Google, someone from SV who has a few years in the local industry has more relevant "experience" to the position than someone in London with 10 years at a financial firm.
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In my experience 90%+ of folks at FANGS are doing "nothing special". These companies just need a lot of bodies
Companies pay the prevailing wage in whatever labor market they participate in. The prevailing wage in the UK is lower than in Silicon Valley, but higher than in, say, Oklahoma City.
Not sure why people are still confused about this. But it seems many still don't understand it. The funniest thing is when people try to concoct some sort of fairness argument to explain this, or equally hilarious is when they try to come up with a fairness argument to condemn it.
Different markets have different prices due to differences in supply and demand in those markets. Want developer salaries to be much higher in the UK? Create an environment where a bunch of big tech companies all want to massively increase hiring there. Salaries will go up. Want developer salaries to be lower in Silicon Valley? Get most of the tech companies to leave. Salaries will go down.
One can say that ultimately the reason why Silicon Valley wages are so high is because there is a productive ecosystem that was so beneficial to the creation of tech companies that there was an explosion in demand for local tech labor. That ecosystem consists of easy access to credit and VC funding, existing networks of suppliers and vendors, existing mentorship networks for engineers and entrepreneurs, stable regulations and enforcement of contracts/property rights, together with sufficient local talent to pull off the difficult job of company creation.
London didn't have that to the same degree, and so has a lower demand for tech labor with correspondingly lower wages.
Not sure why people are still confused about this. But it seems many still don't understand it. The funniest thing is when people try to concoct some sort of fairness argument to explain this, or equally hilarious is when they try to come up with a fairness argument to condemn it.
Different markets have different prices due to differences in supply and demand in those markets. Want developer salaries to be much higher in the UK? Create an environment where a bunch of big tech companies all want to massively increase hiring there. Salaries will go up. Want developer salaries to be lower in Silicon Valley? Get most of the tech companies to leave. Salaries will go down.
One can say that ultimately the reason why Silicon Valley wages are so high is because there is a productive ecosystem that was so beneficial to the creation of tech companies that there was an explosion in demand for local tech labor. That ecosystem consists of easy access to credit and VC funding, existing networks of suppliers and vendors, existing mentorship networks for engineers and entrepreneurs, stable regulations and enforcement of contracts/property rights, together with sufficient local talent to pull off the difficult job of company creation.
London didn't have that to the same degree, and so has a lower demand for tech labor with correspondingly lower wages.
Companies pay the prevailing wage in whatever labor market they participate in.
Well, yes, but the topic under discussion is whether the market is "developers that can commute to the local office" or "developers they can work on that timezone" or "developers anywhere," which all have different implications for the market clearing rate.
Well, yes, but the topic under discussion is whether the market is "developers that can commute to the local office" or "developers they can work on that timezone" or "developers anywhere," which all have different implications for the market clearing rate.
> The prevailing wage in the UK is lower than in Silicon Valley, but higher than in, say, Oklahoma City.
This probably isn't true. A quick googling indicates the average software engineer salary for Oklahoma City as being in the 70-80k USD range, while a similar googling says the number for the UK is around 50k GBP, which is...68k USD.
The median software engineer salary for the US as a whole is 110k USD according to the BLS, so even cheaper areas like Oklahoma City won't be super low.
This probably isn't true. A quick googling indicates the average software engineer salary for Oklahoma City as being in the 70-80k USD range, while a similar googling says the number for the UK is around 50k GBP, which is...68k USD.
The median software engineer salary for the US as a whole is 110k USD according to the BLS, so even cheaper areas like Oklahoma City won't be super low.
Are you comparing apples to apples? E.g. taxes, social contributions, social benefits, etc?
don't forget minimum 5.6 weeks paid holiday (~12% extra, and is tax free)
I'm talking about gross salaries, as you brought up the prevailing wage.
Post tax, I'd expect the US advantage to increase in raw monetary value, and the cost of living in Oklahoma City is probably very low for a sizable city, but of course the UK would offer superior benefits.
Post tax, I'd expect the US advantage to increase in raw monetary value, and the cost of living in Oklahoma City is probably very low for a sizable city, but of course the UK would offer superior benefits.
I'm not sure what you are claiming. You probably won't get $300k in the EU, but if you do, a greater proportion of it will go to taxes - the things you get in return, like pensions or healthcare aren't as attractive at that income level. While US healthcare is very expensive, it's a service, which means it's tied to how much you pay, and not defined as a percentage of your gross income. If you make that much money, you can easily retire early, which wouldn't be possible with government pensions.
at that pay level in Europe you are almost certainly not going to social healthcare because in most of them you will not get the same level of service as in private hospital and will lose more time. so u usually end up paying the healthcare and using it only in extreme circumcises.
there is Switzerland where that is different.
Also here in Spain, the public healthcare system is just fine. I wouldn't use private. Public is good enough.
But it's more about peace of mind. What if I lose that high paying job? I'll suddenly be in trouble for medical fees. Or income for that matter.
That kind of security is really great to have. I wouldn't want to live in a country without it. The US has a kind of "every man for himself" attitude. It feels like it stems from the 'frontier' mindset. You can climb really high but also fall all the way down. And that's fine, to each their own. But it's not for me. I'm happy to just have enough to live comfortably and have a nice job and not have to worry too much. This is also why I'll never be an entrepreneur. I'm very happy being a salaried employee with the lower income but the rights and stability that come with it.
But it's more about peace of mind. What if I lose that high paying job? I'll suddenly be in trouble for medical fees. Or income for that matter.
That kind of security is really great to have. I wouldn't want to live in a country without it. The US has a kind of "every man for himself" attitude. It feels like it stems from the 'frontier' mindset. You can climb really high but also fall all the way down. And that's fine, to each their own. But it's not for me. I'm happy to just have enough to live comfortably and have a nice job and not have to worry too much. This is also why I'll never be an entrepreneur. I'm very happy being a salaried employee with the lower income but the rights and stability that come with it.
Im from Germany and was insured privately during my childhood and my parents still are. The public healthcare system is just as good, you have less stress with doctors using you to earn good money but have to wait sometimes longer for getting an appointment (which still is pretty fast in the international comparison)
> you have less stress with doctors using you to earn good money
This is the most significant and initially intangible difference between US and EU healthcare. It takes a while to realize that in the US you are a source of money and a cost at the same time. At literally every step of the treatment process, everyone you meet will make it clear, either straight up or through an extreme efficiency, dehumanizing the whole process and leaving little room for a holistic approach to medicine, which is still predominant in the EU. The doctors in latter will actually spend time with you and if they figure problem is elsewhere, send you off to another specialist. In contrast, you and your insurer will be milked no matter what in the US.
This is the most significant and initially intangible difference between US and EU healthcare. It takes a while to realize that in the US you are a source of money and a cost at the same time. At literally every step of the treatment process, everyone you meet will make it clear, either straight up or through an extreme efficiency, dehumanizing the whole process and leaving little room for a holistic approach to medicine, which is still predominant in the EU. The doctors in latter will actually spend time with you and if they figure problem is elsewhere, send you off to another specialist. In contrast, you and your insurer will be milked no matter what in the US.
> at that pay level in Europe you are almost certainly not going to social healthcare
Even if you do, for anything more serious, especially emergency, you still use the public health care. And you won't get a massive bill because an ambulance brought you to an out-of-network hospital.
The private healthcare is for regular outpatient care and, as such, substantially cheaper than the cost of insurance in US + all of the co-pays, coinsurance and out-of-network bills.
Source: EU citizen in the US since 6 years.
Even if you do, for anything more serious, especially emergency, you still use the public health care. And you won't get a massive bill because an ambulance brought you to an out-of-network hospital.
The private healthcare is for regular outpatient care and, as such, substantially cheaper than the cost of insurance in US + all of the co-pays, coinsurance and out-of-network bills.
Source: EU citizen in the US since 6 years.
> a greater proportion of it will go to taxes
Is this true? Taxes in the US are pretty high if you have a high income, and remember to include state and local taxes, and property taxes.
> the things you get in return, like pensions or healthcare aren't as attractive at that income level
Perhaps, but it's also attractive that _other_ _people_ get those benefits because ultimately the level of stress everyone else is under has an effect on your quality of life, one way or another.
Is this true? Taxes in the US are pretty high if you have a high income, and remember to include state and local taxes, and property taxes.
> the things you get in return, like pensions or healthcare aren't as attractive at that income level
Perhaps, but it's also attractive that _other_ _people_ get those benefits because ultimately the level of stress everyone else is under has an effect on your quality of life, one way or another.
I've looked into this and it seems the biggest difference is where the brackets are. They're much higher in the US, even if the marginal tax rate for high earners in California is not much lower than Germany.
curious, did you then add medical insurance in? My understanding is that at the highest marginal rates, the two countries are similar, but then you consider that those in the US are also paying additional health insurance premiums.
The people in the US making enough money to pay top marginal rates are not paying for health insurance in any meaningful way. It is paid for by the company as a benefit and very high quality. Even if that wasn’t the case, if you are paying those kinds of tax rates then the cost of the very best insurance is essentially inconsequential relative to your income.
An experienced software engineer might take home, after taxes, $15-20k/month in my US tech city. High-quality health insurance for an entire family is on the order of $1-2k/month, assuming you had to pay for it yourself. If you are a FAANG-level engineer, not only are you not paying for that but you are being paid twice as much.
The cost of health insurance in the US is a real concern for the lower half of the middle class. Software engineers live in a completely different universe of concerns.
An experienced software engineer might take home, after taxes, $15-20k/month in my US tech city. High-quality health insurance for an entire family is on the order of $1-2k/month, assuming you had to pay for it yourself. If you are a FAANG-level engineer, not only are you not paying for that but you are being paid twice as much.
The cost of health insurance in the US is a real concern for the lower half of the middle class. Software engineers live in a completely different universe of concerns.
I'll take your numbers at face value though they seem high to me as take home pay. So $15k/mo at around 35% taxes, and let's skip marginal rate, as that will round numbers in favor of health insurance being negligible. So total pay around $240k/yr. I spend $600/mo or around $7k/yr on health insurance. 7/240 ~= 3%.
So even for a very well paid software engineer, health insurance could effectively push you up 3% as your effective tax rate. Plus all the headaches that go with it.
So even for a very well paid software engineer, health insurance could effectively push you up 3% as your effective tax rate. Plus all the headaches that go with it.
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Also quality of life in Europe is much higher. US everything is bigger, but Europe wins for Food quality, cleanliness, crime & safety, holidays, design.
Especially when you consider bacon.
This kind of comparison makes no sense because whether quality of life is better in US or Europe depends on the US city/state vs European city/country you are comparing in each, as well as whether you're comparing someone of lower, lower middle, upper middle, or upper class.
US upper class in a wealthy area is very different from US lower middle class in another. And the same goes for Europe.
US upper class in a wealthy area is very different from US lower middle class in another. And the same goes for Europe.
This is true in some respects, but as someone who recently moved from Munich back to the states, there's definitely some aspects of life that I prefer here.
I'd list them now, but that would just invite the European Defense Squad to come out and tell me how all those problems are specific to Munich/Bavaria/Germany, ignoring how the original comment I was responding to was generalizing the same way.
The truth is that there are some things you can generalize okay on (e.g. healthcare being cheaper in Europe than the US, or the US having poor public transit), but many things really are specific to the particular European country at least. Biking, for example, might be amazing or completely terrible depending on the part of Europe.
I'd list them now, but that would just invite the European Defense Squad to come out and tell me how all those problems are specific to Munich/Bavaria/Germany, ignoring how the original comment I was responding to was generalizing the same way.
The truth is that there are some things you can generalize okay on (e.g. healthcare being cheaper in Europe than the US, or the US having poor public transit), but many things really are specific to the particular European country at least. Biking, for example, might be amazing or completely terrible depending on the part of Europe.
The quality of life may be higher for lower middle class or poor people, but not for developers making $150k+ a year with benefits. And most of your points are just silly or negated by having money.
I've heard so many stories of people with top-tier insurance still going through medical bankruptcies in the US. And while you can pay to mitigate the crime risk in some ways, you can't avoid it entirely without seriously restricting your life.
There are upsides to the US, but when I realised that I could never see myself retiring there I realised it made no sense to spend my working life there, even if the salary would be higher.
There are upsides to the US, but when I realised that I could never see myself retiring there I realised it made no sense to spend my working life there, even if the salary would be higher.
Crime risk? Where were you living?
I've lived in various places at various times, what specifically are you asking about?
I have never experienced what I would call “crime risk” in the US, much less anything that would require “seriously restricting my life”, so I’m curious if you are referring to a particular area, because I’m sure they exist.
I'm thinking of central/downtown New York and San Francisco (most good developer jobs seemed to be in the big cities). I had enough colleagues get mugged (and got pretty aggressively hassled myself) that it was worrying. What I was getting at with the "seriously restricting my life" was that it seemed like the only way to avoid the risk would have been to never go downtown.
If anything, remote can strengthen US's monopoly on global talent in the short-term.
The friction for US companies to attract global talent is now even lower. Now you don't even need to apply for an H1B visa to be physically in the US to work for a US company.
However, since the talent is not physically based in the US, this can be a great thing for countries everywhere in the long-run. GDPs are created remotely for countries around the world, and the knowledge these global talent gain by working with US companies will be dispersed around the world.
Hundreds of ecosystems will bloom around the world, leveling the playing field.
This is a great thing.
The friction for US companies to attract global talent is now even lower. Now you don't even need to apply for an H1B visa to be physically in the US to work for a US company.
However, since the talent is not physically based in the US, this can be a great thing for countries everywhere in the long-run. GDPs are created remotely for countries around the world, and the knowledge these global talent gain by working with US companies will be dispersed around the world.
Hundreds of ecosystems will bloom around the world, leveling the playing field.
This is a great thing.
Except a lot of places are “going back to work” and let’s be honest, timezones aren’t and probably will never be an easy problem to solve.
Especially around development (on time zones), you have to actively factor in teams and makeup as well as what they are working on to get it working right...
I’m struggling with American “superiors” who won’t have a meeting in any time that isn’t perfect for them.
If it’s not between 9:00-17:00, sorry, bad luck for everyone else.
If it’s not between 9:00-17:00, sorry, bad luck for everyone else.
Ya, poor leadership if they are not willing to use global teams and then lead them through example.
Reminds me a of a quote from "The Last Dance" [1]:
“If you ask all my teammates… ‘The one thing about Michael Jordan was he never asked me to do anything that he didn’t f*%king do.’”
[1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8420184/
“If you ask all my teammates… ‘The one thing about Michael Jordan was he never asked me to do anything that he didn’t f*%king do.’”
[1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8420184/
Not to mention navigation employment laws and regulations. One country is hard enough, let alone doing it worldwide
I think it's getting better - a number of countries worldwide (such as Portugal or UAE) are making it easier and easier for people to work remotely as "contractors". While not perfect, it's definitely a good solution for highly skilled workers who have a strong negotiating position and can ask for all the benefits their country's labour law would otherwise assure.
There are startups aiming at solving this problem, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deel_(company)
With regards to timezones, there are a bunch of software companies which are completely remote and global which operate fine. If employees have a fair amount of autonomy and/or work with their local teams, and have sync calls during mutually suitable time slots, there is no real impediment to operating a functional company.
The "flexible" approach does work, but tends to be quite a drain on workers lives. Theres always someone somewhere who has to wake up at 2am for the weekly 'sync' meeting, or who doesn't see their children after school because their calendar is clogged with 1:1 meetings with all their USA reports most evenings.
From my personal experience I think that the most challenging factor with outsourcing is in fact the time zone.
Being situated in Germany I see many webdev jobs being outsourced about 1 hour to the east and about all the way down to South Africa and Mauritius („Cyber Island”).
This are the projects that work like normal. Then of course the vast majority is outsourced to contractors in India or China – but frankly communication in these projects has always been a bummer.
But then again, it's just my own bubble and probably depends heavily on the type of work and the frequency of communication involved.
Being situated in Germany I see many webdev jobs being outsourced about 1 hour to the east and about all the way down to South Africa and Mauritius („Cyber Island”).
This are the projects that work like normal. Then of course the vast majority is outsourced to contractors in India or China – but frankly communication in these projects has always been a bummer.
But then again, it's just my own bubble and probably depends heavily on the type of work and the frequency of communication involved.
you're right about the time zone and the language barrier... am from Chile and working for foreign projects is always a headache
The North American equivalent is Latin America. I’m in consulting, and every new project has some set of near shore resources billed much lower than their North American counterparts. In most cases the only discernible difference is proficiency in English.
I remember after "corralito" a lot of US companies started opening their CoE (center of excelence) in Argentina because wages were really low, and they could hire easily.
I heard (not sure if it is true) people wanted to be paid in USD because car loans were denominated in dollars rather than pesos.
I heard (not sure if it is true) people wanted to be paid in USD because car loans were denominated in dollars rather than pesos.
>I heard (not sure if it is true) people wanted to be paid in USD because car loans were denominated in dollars rather than pesos.
Wikipedia says that 60% of bank loans in neighboring Uruguay are in US dollars, so I am not surprised to hear that about Argentina, a country that has for years had an unofficial "blue dollar" exchange rate with the US$ (<https://www.coha.org/blue-dollar-black-market-the-illegal-ex...>) that is very, very different from the official one.
Wikipedia says that 60% of bank loans in neighboring Uruguay are in US dollars, so I am not surprised to hear that about Argentina, a country that has for years had an unofficial "blue dollar" exchange rate with the US$ (<https://www.coha.org/blue-dollar-black-market-the-illegal-ex...>) that is very, very different from the official one.
My experience has been different. Ive found it difficult to find senior people. Junior and mid level people abound, but there are precious few qualified seniors.
I think it's the nature of the market. There isn't as much demand to outsource senior roles, so the market just doesn't produce a lot of them.
I think it's the nature of the market. There isn't as much demand to outsource senior roles, so the market just doesn't produce a lot of them.
I've seen this trend as well. There's this interesting double trend of upward costs on senior resources and downward costs on junior resources.
This is changing and will change. There are more startups and more access to startups with great products that will create the next generation of tech-stars.
This was not true 20 years ago where most of the work was software factories and nickel/diming big-cos
This was not true 20 years ago where most of the work was software factories and nickel/diming big-cos
I'm earning 6 figures in central Europe working remotely for the Americans. Local corporations can't match that let alone beat it. I'm cheaper than U.S. resources, yet a lot more experienced and productive. I'm happy and the employer is really, really happy. If anything remote work solidified US strong hold on IT talent, not broke it.
Definitely great news for you, but not so great news for IT talent located the U.S. if more companies start doing this.
It's also bad news for employers in your country, because they're losing top talent like yourself to deep pocketed American companies.
It's also bad news for employers in your country, because they're losing top talent like yourself to deep pocketed American companies.
> but not so great news for IT talent located the U.S. if more companies start doing this.
We've been saying that for 30 years.
In the end, the demand for engineers is much bigger than we think. And if price of engineers goes down just a little bit, more projects will become feasible, so demand will go up.
So, if anything we might see wages grow less aggressively, long before they stall, and wages will stall long before they go down.
Who knows how long the party will last, but odds are it's longer than nmy career.
(Unless a bubble blows up SV tomorrow, hehe)
We've been saying that for 30 years.
In the end, the demand for engineers is much bigger than we think. And if price of engineers goes down just a little bit, more projects will become feasible, so demand will go up.
So, if anything we might see wages grow less aggressively, long before they stall, and wages will stall long before they go down.
Who knows how long the party will last, but odds are it's longer than nmy career.
(Unless a bubble blows up SV tomorrow, hehe)
Meh. I think folks under-estimate the variety of economies in the US. I could move to WV and live very comfortably on about 60K a year. I could very realistically take a 10x paycut (not that I would bother working for someone else in software at that point... "my engineers/scientists might leave and create the start-up that kills me" is definitely upward pressure on wages at least for a certain class of tech worker)
(FWIW, I don't really have a horse in this race; my skillset is unique enough that everyone who competes with me for jobs qualifies for special visas and there's a 10:1 or maybe even 100:1 labor shortage with a 6+ year ramp-up time. But I've worked with off-shore talent and seen the comps... my general impression is that Americans over-estimate the cost of living in the cheapest parts of our country and MASSIVELY under-estimate the cost of living in urban cores of other countries)
(FWIW, I don't really have a horse in this race; my skillset is unique enough that everyone who competes with me for jobs qualifies for special visas and there's a 10:1 or maybe even 100:1 labor shortage with a 6+ year ramp-up time. But I've worked with off-shore talent and seen the comps... my general impression is that Americans over-estimate the cost of living in the cheapest parts of our country and MASSIVELY under-estimate the cost of living in urban cores of other countries)
The most I was offered locally so far was 60k. While I appreciate where you are coming from, put yourself in my shoes for a moment, if you had the opportunity to triple your income today, would you take it?
In every country it always is and must be the interest of the great body of the people to buy whatever they want of those who sell it cheapest.
- Adam Smith, 1776.
- Adam Smith, 1776.
I personally find it strange how gleeful lots of US developers have been about remote work. It means our US salaries are going to be untenable and we'll be paid like the rest of the world. Why pay a Silicon Valley salary when it's remote anyway and 1/4 the price to get someone from elsewhere?
We went through that with outsourcing already. There is something about businesses and their communications - don't listen to what they say they need - that is really what they want and are whining for. Instead look at their actions - they take measures to fufill their actual needs.
We keep on seeing that scaremongering about "you taking advantage of remote work will be bad for your job oooooo!" but that doesn't make any sense. You forgoing its benefits won't make it not happen any more than riding a horse will stop people from using cars. Besides if they can why the hell aren't they already? The capability has long been there and they don't so much outsource to same order of magnitude.
Given immigration to the US for work and it implies the other way around - they need to pay US level salaries to get the high quality employees with any level of remote reliability (recruiting is a rather messy and slapdash endeavor at best for judging and obtaining quality).
We keep on seeing that scaremongering about "you taking advantage of remote work will be bad for your job oooooo!" but that doesn't make any sense. You forgoing its benefits won't make it not happen any more than riding a horse will stop people from using cars. Besides if they can why the hell aren't they already? The capability has long been there and they don't so much outsource to same order of magnitude.
Given immigration to the US for work and it implies the other way around - they need to pay US level salaries to get the high quality employees with any level of remote reliability (recruiting is a rather messy and slapdash endeavor at best for judging and obtaining quality).
Modern remote hiring is very different to the offshoring of old. Hiring individual skilled developers remote is very different from outsourcing an entire project to a consulting shop in India.
Modern offshoring is a very different experience, and likely will have downward pressure on US wages.
Modern offshoring is a very different experience, and likely will have downward pressure on US wages.
I'm not really seeing it.
Competent developers at this point are already working directly or indirectly for US companies that pay well. I don't know anyone who wants this kind of work who doesn't have it already.
Competent developers at this point are already working directly or indirectly for US companies that pay well. I don't know anyone who wants this kind of work who doesn't have it already.
Because that is absolutely unlikely in the extreme. I've worked with and lead teams of outsourced non-US developers. It very often (not always but much more often) ends unfavorably compared to local-ish remote teams or local in office teams. Language barriers, culture barriers, infrastructure issues (quality of internet/phone, regional software restrictions, export restrictions, contract work vs regular employees, etc....) are too much to over come in the majority of cases.
Software teams are almost always better run with small groups of highly skilled developers that can and want to work closely together. Think special ops vs regular infantry platoon. Outside of FaaNG not many companies are working on projects that require a large number of devs.
Software teams are almost always better run with small groups of highly skilled developers that can and want to work closely together. Think special ops vs regular infantry platoon. Outside of FaaNG not many companies are working on projects that require a large number of devs.
don't underestimate some of the problems the author listed here. Language barriers & timezone challenges will cause the roadmap to move so much slower that you've lost gains on saving that 3/4 price.
Good luck convincing people who "can do" the work to take 1/4th.
Yeah There's better jobs then programing for 50k a year. Why would I keep doing this then. I'll work a ski lift or something
I don't buy it, US tech salaries continue to skyrocket and we're nearly two years into pandemic conditions.
Just over the last 6-9 months, salaries have markedly jumped.
There's still a huge thirst for talent that isn't being quenched, and global pools don't help either.
Facebook, Google and others have satellite offices all over to soak up talent elsewhere, but they're still ultra competitive in the US.
They can pay a senior engineer $350k in the US, or an equivalent experience senior engineer $100k in Europe. There is no shift occurring though. They're still hiring like crazy everywhere.
There's no place like the US for tech workers. Nowhere even comes close, even on a CoL-adjusted basis. European developers get screwed. South American developers get screwed. Asian developers get screwed. US developers don't get screwed.
Just over the last 6-9 months, salaries have markedly jumped.
There's still a huge thirst for talent that isn't being quenched, and global pools don't help either.
Facebook, Google and others have satellite offices all over to soak up talent elsewhere, but they're still ultra competitive in the US.
They can pay a senior engineer $350k in the US, or an equivalent experience senior engineer $100k in Europe. There is no shift occurring though. They're still hiring like crazy everywhere.
There's no place like the US for tech workers. Nowhere even comes close, even on a CoL-adjusted basis. European developers get screwed. South American developers get screwed. Asian developers get screwed. US developers don't get screwed.
Still, I find the quality of life in Spain preferable. We have a government health system paid through taxes, no guns on the streets, not much pollution, amazing public transport, 4 weeks holidays and good weather. I prefer having those things as a safety net instead of having to pay for them myself. I really love not needing a car here at all, I haven't driven in years.
I was recently offered a job in silicon valley but despite the fact that I would make several times my current wage and the language would be better for me (I'm not a native here), I wouldn't consider it. Money isn't everything (and silicon valley is crazy expensive, it wouldn't amount to that much). It's about quality of life for me.
I was recently offered a job in silicon valley but despite the fact that I would make several times my current wage and the language would be better for me (I'm not a native here), I wouldn't consider it. Money isn't everything (and silicon valley is crazy expensive, it wouldn't amount to that much). It's about quality of life for me.
I think you are really onto something truth is if you have 100K remote job in Spain you will hav better lifestyle than having 300K job in SV. If I only could convince my wife to move :(.
I'm nowhere near 100K in Spain but I wouldn't make 300K in that job in SV either :)
I think it would work out worse in SV though in terms of spending power. With the exception of tech toys which tend to be around the same price everywhere so relatively expensive in Spain.
But I'd give up a lot. Being half a world away from family and also the other drawbacks I mentioned. No, I'm fine here.
I think it would work out worse in SV though in terms of spending power. With the exception of tech toys which tend to be around the same price everywhere so relatively expensive in Spain.
But I'd give up a lot. Being half a world away from family and also the other drawbacks I mentioned. No, I'm fine here.
I think with people getting more comfortable with remote teams getting a job for US entity from Spain should become easier.
It's possible, but there is the time difference thing, especially when it comes to the east coast. We have 6 hours to the east coast, 9 to the west coast. In Spain people like to start and finish late (having dinner at 9pm is normal!) but this difference is uncomfortably much. It's not really handy if you have to work US time, bring your kids to work, have a social life, etc. In my current job we're the "inbetweeners" between the India and US teams. We keep in touch with both because India and the US don't normally collaborate much due to an even worse timezone situation.
Also, why would they bother paying US salaries to employees stationed in Spain? When I moved here from Ireland (also EU) my salary actually went down a bit :) And they already scaled me up a lot within my salary class, if I had come in here 'off the street' I would have made even less. Multinationals already have this scenario a lot and they pay local wages.
People are willing to work here for local wages. And local conditions are mandatory here if you live here. Working for a US company and for US conditions while living here will not fly by EU law (the only exception is NGOs like the UN).
So I don't think it will change too much to be honest. If anything it will provide more downward pressure on US salaries than upward pressure on the ones here.
Also, why would they bother paying US salaries to employees stationed in Spain? When I moved here from Ireland (also EU) my salary actually went down a bit :) And they already scaled me up a lot within my salary class, if I had come in here 'off the street' I would have made even less. Multinationals already have this scenario a lot and they pay local wages.
People are willing to work here for local wages. And local conditions are mandatory here if you live here. Working for a US company and for US conditions while living here will not fly by EU law (the only exception is NGOs like the UN).
So I don't think it will change too much to be honest. If anything it will provide more downward pressure on US salaries than upward pressure on the ones here.
> I'm nowhere near 100K in Spain but I wouldn't make 300K in that job in SV either :)
I wouldn't discount yourself. A lot of people have this idea that becoming a senior engineer somewhere like Google must mean you're super elite, but as someone who's worked at Google for several years, I really don't think that's true. Google developers as a group are quite solid of course, but real 'rockstar' devs who just blow you away with their skill are a small minority even here.
I wouldn't discount yourself. A lot of people have this idea that becoming a senior engineer somewhere like Google must mean you're super elite, but as someone who's worked at Google for several years, I really don't think that's true. Google developers as a group are quite solid of course, but real 'rockstar' devs who just blow you away with their skill are a small minority even here.
Where do you live? If you have kids in Madrid it is almost mandatory to have a car.
Imho the best place to live in Spain is in a 'capital de provicia': you have all the services the law mandates but it is not crowded.
Imho the best place to live in Spain is in a 'capital de provicia': you have all the services the law mandates but it is not crowded.
I live in Barcelona city but I have no kids. I often see whole school classes on the metro though, going on school trips. I think the metro is just fine for them.
Also, walking everywhere is really feasible. I stopped using the metro for everything due to Corona. Though I picked it up again after getting the vaccine, I still retained the habit of walking. Barcelona is nice and compact, I can walk everywhere within an hour or so. Not sure about Madrid, I've only visited.
If I had a car I wouldn't even know where to leave it to be honest. In my area there's no parking available except some highly expensive garages.
Also, walking everywhere is really feasible. I stopped using the metro for everything due to Corona. Though I picked it up again after getting the vaccine, I still retained the habit of walking. Barcelona is nice and compact, I can walk everywhere within an hour or so. Not sure about Madrid, I've only visited.
If I had a car I wouldn't even know where to leave it to be honest. In my area there's no parking available except some highly expensive garages.
Why do you think developers are getting screwed in those places?
I've worked with tons of developers in South America and they were very happy with their life, their benefits, their pay...
Confused on why they are getting "screwed".
I've worked with tons of developers in South America and they were very happy with their life, their benefits, their pay...
Confused on why they are getting "screwed".
Because they're not receiving the same CoL adjusted compensation as Americans. Your attitude sounds a little patronizing.
Sure they are, like I said their pay is perfectly fine and kinda blown away you think it isn't. I don't understand what the complaint is on pay as they are making great money. What is the specific complaint you have or that you see?
This is text based comments, inferring attitude is a huge black hole of impossibility :)
This is text based comments, inferring attitude is a huge black hole of impossibility :)
Why is it okay to be paid $100,000 for the exact same job as your equivalent counterparts in the US make 3.5x for?
That's millions if you save the majority for retirement. It could be the difference between nursing homes and an independent travel-filled retirement at a reasonable age.
Of course, I'm not here to make decisions for anyone. And people have personal reasons to not pursue immigration, that's fine. They're making a steep trade-off, though.
That's millions if you save the majority for retirement. It could be the difference between nursing homes and an independent travel-filled retirement at a reasonable age.
Of course, I'm not here to make decisions for anyone. And people have personal reasons to not pursue immigration, that's fine. They're making a steep trade-off, though.
Yes I would be totally ok with that. Especially if that $100k include a real pension when I retire that I can depend on, no threat of my kids getting shot at school, health insurance that covers me when I get sick without having to go into bankruptcy, bike paths over the entire country, paternity for when I have a kid, subsidized child care for everyone so parents can be more sane, etc etc...
You think this is just about talent and it is not. It is combination of so many things such as taxes, social care, government ideology, culture in that country, retirement/pensions, cost of living in that location, minimum wage anchoring, how much it costs to dismiss someone, etc...
Also, barely anyone in the USA makes 350k, so this entire argument is kinda moot. Barely any developers make $350,000 so this comparison is just kinda crazy.
Even in the USA average salary is $177k for Senior executives: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#salary-comp-t...
You think this is just about talent and it is not. It is combination of so many things such as taxes, social care, government ideology, culture in that country, retirement/pensions, cost of living in that location, minimum wage anchoring, how much it costs to dismiss someone, etc...
Also, barely anyone in the USA makes 350k, so this entire argument is kinda moot. Barely any developers make $350,000 so this comparison is just kinda crazy.
Even in the USA average salary is $177k for Senior executives: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#salary-comp-t...
In US public tech companies it's standard for half or more of the compensation to be made up by equity grants. Are you sure your average salary figures are not just looking at salary? A salary of $177k would be normal for someone making annual total comp of $350k at a FAANG -- you can see this on levels.fyi.
True, I am not sure their either how they factor that in. On the SO survey they say salary so not sure if this combined.
We talk a lot about FANGS here, but way more people work for normal companies.
We talk a lot about FANGS here, but way more people work for normal companies.
> Why is it okay to be paid $100,000 for the exact same job as your equivalent counterparts in the US make 3.5x for?
I'm not going to say it's okay, but there are a few things to keep in mind. The most obvious is that salaries are not determined so much by how productive the employee is but by the relationship between supply and demand.
But that's not the really interesting part. The interesting part is that when you factor in taxes and CoL, you might be earning less gross but walking away with more money after paying taxes and living costs.
I'm not going to say it's okay, but there are a few things to keep in mind. The most obvious is that salaries are not determined so much by how productive the employee is but by the relationship between supply and demand.
But that's not the really interesting part. The interesting part is that when you factor in taxes and CoL, you might be earning less gross but walking away with more money after paying taxes and living costs.
> They can pay a senior engineer $350k in the US, or an equivalent experience senior engineer $100k in Europe.
Why can they do this?
Why can they do this?
Because the rest of Europe pays 80k.
Very fair salary, especially when you take into account they have real health care, real social safty nets, etc.
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Healthcare isn't really a great argument. Aside from the low hanging argument that healthcare is covered or subsidized by most tech companies in the US, the cost of healthcare pales in comparison to the difference between $100k and $350k.
The value of healthcare is not $250,000 per year per person. It's not even 1/10th of that.
As for safety nets, that depends on personal risk tolerance. As an experienced developer, it's not particularly difficult to find work. Even an average one.
We're talking about a massive difference in pay. That difference could amount to literally millions of dollars in retirement for your family.
The value of healthcare is not $250,000 per year per person. It's not even 1/10th of that.
As for safety nets, that depends on personal risk tolerance. As an experienced developer, it's not particularly difficult to find work. Even an average one.
We're talking about a massive difference in pay. That difference could amount to literally millions of dollars in retirement for your family.
My annual max out of pocket cost for healthcare is $5,000. Once I pay the $5k, everything else for free for the rest of the year. How is that worth a $100-200K salary difference?
It's not worth it. They also forget to mention that in most EU countries you pay ~30% of your income before taxes for healthcare (in addition to taxes). By my calculations, average software engineer pays 10x more for healthcare in EU than in the USA - in absolute numbers.
That's not exactly how health insurance works. The insurer can always say something the doctor did is not covered, or something the doctor says you need is not covered. Or that, while a procedure is covered under the policy, you aren't sick enough for the insurer to consider it medically necessary, even if the doctor thinks it is.
This is mostly about FANGs and they can do it because they make $1m plus in revenue per employee.
These are senior positions so don't think this is normal. Average dev salaries are $60k to $150k in USA depending on a ton of factors.
The USA also has no social safety net so it's like comparing oranges to apples when you look at parts of Asia or Europe :)
These are senior positions so don't think this is normal. Average dev salaries are $60k to $150k in USA depending on a ton of factors.
The USA also has no social safety net so it's like comparing oranges to apples when you look at parts of Asia or Europe :)
But the FAANGS have offices in Europe and pay those employees less, unless I’m mistaken. In which case you can’t argue that US has FAANGS and others don’t.
Yes, but the job market is different there as are the cost structure... it is not an equal comparison.
For example, in the USA you are looking at about 22% for taxes on an employees salary that the company pays. In Europe that can be as high as 50%.
Just one example...
For example, in the USA you are looking at about 22% for taxes on an employees salary that the company pays. In Europe that can be as high as 50%.
Just one example...
They can do whatever they want. You accuse others of being patronizing but your sense of entitlement is polarizing. It would do you well to realize that the US pays a lot for software engineering as a result of the same societal structure, policies, and priorities that cause the problems Europeans love picking on (e.g. healthcare, paid time off, parental leave, etc).
It's not that drastic anymore people getting 350 total comp in US would get 200K Euro total comp in say Dublin, Ireland
As a developer working in Europe, I would love to work for an American company and make 30 to 50% more. But, it's difficult:
- I don't really want to adapt myself to their timezone. Perhaps 1 or 2 or hours of shift from my tz, but not more
- I don't want to work as a contractor. I want to be an employee
- I want at least 28 business days of vacation per year
- I do 9 to 5. No more, no less. I'm not in my 20s anymore
Because of the reasons above I don't even care looking for remote positions in American companies (which are scarce already).
- I don't really want to adapt myself to their timezone. Perhaps 1 or 2 or hours of shift from my tz, but not more
- I don't want to work as a contractor. I want to be an employee
- I want at least 28 business days of vacation per year
- I do 9 to 5. No more, no less. I'm not in my 20s anymore
Because of the reasons above I don't even care looking for remote positions in American companies (which are scarce already).
You should not make any assumptions about work in the US. There's many American software companies that are able to fulfill your requirements.
In many tech companies, you have "unlimited" vacation. You can probably take more vacation that you already get in Europe. This is true of my company, mParticle.
I can work 9-to-5 as an employee. That is the culture of the company that I work for.
People can choose to work remotely or in an office.
In many tech companies, you have "unlimited" vacation. You can probably take more vacation that you already get in Europe. This is true of my company, mParticle.
I can work 9-to-5 as an employee. That is the culture of the company that I work for.
People can choose to work remotely or in an office.
By "vacation" you mean fully paid days ? Unlimited?
"Unlimited" in quotes. Sometimes better called "unmetered". That is, you are not granted days of vacation, nor does taking a day off get deducted from any limit. But obviously if you're not showing up to work often enough, you will lose your job.
I'd much rather have a set amount and feel good using it than worrying if I have exceeded my limit of socially acceptable days off.
> You can probably take more vacation that you already get in Europe.
I’ve always heard that places like this tend to pressure you into not taking many days or taking a more “normal” amount.
I just started a job with unlimited vacation, so I’ll have to see how it goes. I think best case is I can have more shorter stints through the year.
I’ve always heard that places like this tend to pressure you into not taking many days or taking a more “normal” amount.
I just started a job with unlimited vacation, so I’ll have to see how it goes. I think best case is I can have more shorter stints through the year.
my company offers unlimited PTO, then also makes us take at least one day per month, then also has a $2000 travel stipend to encourage us to use PTO. on top of that it is a very 9-5 oriented culture. They do exist, and this is at a Series A startup.
my company seems to honor it pretty well. Last year, I took 7wks not counting company holidays. Half that this year (it was harder as I was spinning up in a new role).
That sounds pretty bad. You feel the pressure to take less vacation because things are busy at work.
In European workplace culture, the demands of the work tend to be immaterial to the amount of vacation you can take. If things are busy, it's up to your boss to figure out how to handle them while you are away. If they can't do that, it's seen as their failure, not yours. However, if your employer knows in advance that things will be busy, they have a limited ability to adjust the timing of your vacation, but they usually have to do that months in advance.
In European workplace culture, the demands of the work tend to be immaterial to the amount of vacation you can take. If things are busy, it's up to your boss to figure out how to handle them while you are away. If they can't do that, it's seen as their failure, not yours. However, if your employer knows in advance that things will be busy, they have a limited ability to adjust the timing of your vacation, but they usually have to do that months in advance.
28 business days of vacation per year? More than 5 weeks? I know of no company in America that offers that, not even informally.
Few US companies offer most of the benefits Europeans expect, from free/cheap health care to child care to generous maternity/paternity leave to low tuition to job security to strictly enforced equal opportunity.
Combine all of those into one employer in the US? That unicorn doesn't exist. However such beasts live all over Europe. But they just don't pay US wages, perhaps for obvious reasons.
What's more, as soon as US companies hire remotely en masse in Europe, regulators there will surely demand the same benefits & protections for their people from remote employers. This will erase the economic advantages of outsourcing there unless wages paid there are substantially lower than in the US.
Few US companies offer most of the benefits Europeans expect, from free/cheap health care to child care to generous maternity/paternity leave to low tuition to job security to strictly enforced equal opportunity.
Combine all of those into one employer in the US? That unicorn doesn't exist. However such beasts live all over Europe. But they just don't pay US wages, perhaps for obvious reasons.
What's more, as soon as US companies hire remotely en masse in Europe, regulators there will surely demand the same benefits & protections for their people from remote employers. This will erase the economic advantages of outsourcing there unless wages paid there are substantially lower than in the US.
> What's more, as soon as US companies hire remotely en masse in Europe, regulators there will surely demand the same benefits & protections for their people from remote employers.
If US company doesn't have a local office in that European country they can't anyway offer a normal employment contract, that has never been possible. Social security, healthcare, pension needs to be paid. So either the employee is a freelancer, or company has an office in the same country to pay the employer's dues.
This applies to intra-EU work too, someone living in Germany can't accept a regular employment position in a Spanish company remotely.
If US company doesn't have a local office in that European country they can't anyway offer a normal employment contract, that has never been possible. Social security, healthcare, pension needs to be paid. So either the employee is a freelancer, or company has an office in the same country to pay the employer's dues.
This applies to intra-EU work too, someone living in Germany can't accept a regular employment position in a Spanish company remotely.
> Social security, healthcare, pension needs to be paid. So either the employee is a freelancer, or company has an office in the same country to pay the employer's dues.
This is important!
The labor market in most EU countries is very strictly regulated, mostly to the benefit of the employees. If the company you try to work for does not have a branch in your country (chances are, they don't) then there is a huge bureaucratic burden and sometimes even a legal grey area.
Speaking from a German perspective, its barely worth it to try to apply for a remote position at Facebook (at least based on the salaries I've found). As a contractor you'd have to battle a huge administrative effort in terms of social security and healthcare, not to mention that everything is more expensive as a freelancer since there is no employer contribution to your healthcare payments. In the end you may end up with slightly more money in the bank, but with fewer employee protections and a huge administrative burden. So I'd really question if it's really worth it.
However, Germany is actually a market with decently high salaries for the IT sector, unlike some other countries like Italy. So I could imagine that there is significant demand from other EU countries
This is important!
The labor market in most EU countries is very strictly regulated, mostly to the benefit of the employees. If the company you try to work for does not have a branch in your country (chances are, they don't) then there is a huge bureaucratic burden and sometimes even a legal grey area.
Speaking from a German perspective, its barely worth it to try to apply for a remote position at Facebook (at least based on the salaries I've found). As a contractor you'd have to battle a huge administrative effort in terms of social security and healthcare, not to mention that everything is more expensive as a freelancer since there is no employer contribution to your healthcare payments. In the end you may end up with slightly more money in the bank, but with fewer employee protections and a huge administrative burden. So I'd really question if it's really worth it.
However, Germany is actually a market with decently high salaries for the IT sector, unlike some other countries like Italy. So I could imagine that there is significant demand from other EU countries
> Speaking from a German perspective, its barely worth it to try to apply for a remote position at [..] As a contractor
You have to deal with more paperwork, but in my experience it definitely is worth the trouble to become an independent contractor in Germany -- also if you work only for local companies. Generally with local work you can expect to earn at least double as a freelancer, though I'm sure there are some niches that pay well also for regular employment positions.
You have to deal with more paperwork, but in my experience it definitely is worth the trouble to become an independent contractor in Germany -- also if you work only for local companies. Generally with local work you can expect to earn at least double as a freelancer, though I'm sure there are some niches that pay well also for regular employment positions.
Where in Europe? Rich Europe or poor Europe?
As far as the TZ issue, I just wanted to mention that it is possible a company could really appreciate having you stay on your normal schedule if you have an operational role, because it helps extend coverage and saves US based folks from shifting their schedules.
That's actually a good point! I could put that on my CV :D
All you need to do is work with a remote or offsite team once to disabuse you of this idea. It is extremely hard to make remote work...work. Also, cost savings are often negated by having to set up parallel structures in X or Y country. Suddenly your cheaper dev costs are being eaten by legal, finance and HR.
The author focuses on physical presence in a country, but as she points out, immigrants flocked to the US because it's an economic powerhouse. This will not change, and for all intents and purposes the talent will still be in the US, since their work will be in the US. If anything, it will make it even stronger, since most of the interesting things in e.g. tech are done there, and there is now less of a barrier to get the talent. Big fish will eat the small fish, you can see this clearly in e.g. the EU, where "talent" from smaller poorer countries goes to richer countries massively, since there are effectively no borders or barriers.
So they might not be there physically, but this is not really a big concern if you're a US company. It might be different for the country as a whole though.
So they might not be there physically, but this is not really a big concern if you're a US company. It might be different for the country as a whole though.
I've seen what it requires for an individual to be in a country other than the USA and the US-based company not wanting to treat them as an employee due to the paperwork. That generally means they need to be an independent contractor so individual needs to set up a company in their own country and deal with all the issues associated with that and the tax implications. Most smaller companies won't deal with foreign employees and leave it all up to the individual, if those companies are will to do it as all.
There are plenty of labor sourcing companies who will happily do all the paperwork (and take on the legal risk) for you to hire someone in a foreign country, but in fact you pay the labor company some fixed hourly rate, and they hire the worker as an employee.
It's a good model, because then when the laws of the foreign country change to say "Women's average salaries must match mens" or "Workers shall be paid 2x rate on religious holidays" or "Employers shall pay extra tax for hiring people over the age of 62 years old"... All those cases can be dealt with by the foreign company who knows the local laws and customs.
It's a good model, because then when the laws of the foreign country change to say "Women's average salaries must match mens" or "Workers shall be paid 2x rate on religious holidays" or "Employers shall pay extra tax for hiring people over the age of 62 years old"... All those cases can be dealt with by the foreign company who knows the local laws and customs.
> All those cases can be dealt with by the foreign company who knows the local laws and customs.
I haven't seen it mentioned here but while in many cases you can as an employer outsource payroll and labor law compliance, you can never completely shed the potential liabilities that come with employing someone and this can get complicated when your workforce is based in different countries.
There are a lot of things that can go wrong. Your payroll/compliance vendor could screw the pooch. Your foreign-based employee could do something negligent or malicious that leaves you in a legal bind where your costs of protecting your interests skyrocket. And your employment of an individual in certain countries could subject you to laws and taxes you never even knew about.
Of course, a growing number of companies do employ remote workers around the world but it's really not as simple as "I can hire anyone in any country as long as they are talented". The world simply isn't that flat.
I haven't seen it mentioned here but while in many cases you can as an employer outsource payroll and labor law compliance, you can never completely shed the potential liabilities that come with employing someone and this can get complicated when your workforce is based in different countries.
There are a lot of things that can go wrong. Your payroll/compliance vendor could screw the pooch. Your foreign-based employee could do something negligent or malicious that leaves you in a legal bind where your costs of protecting your interests skyrocket. And your employment of an individual in certain countries could subject you to laws and taxes you never even knew about.
Of course, a growing number of companies do employ remote workers around the world but it's really not as simple as "I can hire anyone in any country as long as they are talented". The world simply isn't that flat.
In my model, you aren't hiring the worker. You are buying whatever code they write.
The local firm is the one who technically employs the worker and takes on all these risks.
At any point, you can stop buying more code, and the local firm will have to face the consequences.
The local firm is the one who technically employs the worker and takes on all these risks.
At any point, you can stop buying more code, and the local firm will have to face the consequences.
You're referring to what's called an "employer of record" (EOR) and this isn't as straightforward or risk-free as you think it is.
First, there are some countries in which the law would consider your business to be the employer of a worker even if the worker was hired by an EOR. And others place limits on EOR relationships, such as the length of time a worker can be continuously employed by an EOR.
Second, an individual you employ through an EOR can still take actions that potentially expose your business to risk. Think data breaches, intellectual property theft, etc. In many legal matters, since you are not the employer, you would not even have the ability to take direct action against the worker and would instead have to have the EOR act on your behalf, which is of course another source of counterparty risk.
Finally, your relationship with the EOR is not a one-way street as you seem to think ("the local firm will have to face the consequences"). Under any EOR contract, your business has obligations to the EOR as well and a reputable EOR is actually probably far more likely than an average employee to go after you in your home country if you breach the contract.
As an expat who has done business in numerous countries, I offer the following blanket advice: never do business (in any shape or form) in a country where you're not capable of and prepared to get your hands dirty locally (with the legal system, etc.).
First, there are some countries in which the law would consider your business to be the employer of a worker even if the worker was hired by an EOR. And others place limits on EOR relationships, such as the length of time a worker can be continuously employed by an EOR.
Second, an individual you employ through an EOR can still take actions that potentially expose your business to risk. Think data breaches, intellectual property theft, etc. In many legal matters, since you are not the employer, you would not even have the ability to take direct action against the worker and would instead have to have the EOR act on your behalf, which is of course another source of counterparty risk.
Finally, your relationship with the EOR is not a one-way street as you seem to think ("the local firm will have to face the consequences"). Under any EOR contract, your business has obligations to the EOR as well and a reputable EOR is actually probably far more likely than an average employee to go after you in your home country if you breach the contract.
As an expat who has done business in numerous countries, I offer the following blanket advice: never do business (in any shape or form) in a country where you're not capable of and prepared to get your hands dirty locally (with the legal system, etc.).
If the US keeps its skilled immigration H1B process so complicated and painful with lots of unpredictability and randomness for its potential immigrants - it is definitely going to lose the attraction that it had on tech workers.
I have personally seen hundreds of FANG rockstar engineers leave the country to Canada and Australia where their immigration processes are easier and provide an easier path to citizenship instead of keeping them as indentured slaves for an indefinite period.
I have personally seen hundreds of FANG rockstar engineers leave the country to Canada and Australia where their immigration processes are easier and provide an easier path to citizenship instead of keeping them as indentured slaves for an indefinite period.
I find this a bit far fetched, with as many problems as the USA has it still has a solid reputation as a place you can come and make a new life with low corruption, a justice system, free speech, affordability, and on the local/state level a government/bureaucracy that still works.
Same goes for Germany and countries that provide a high quality of life for their people.
I understand the idea, but there is a reason people want to leave places that are "broken".
Same goes for Germany and countries that provide a high quality of life for their people.
I understand the idea, but there is a reason people want to leave places that are "broken".
I think you overestimate the reputation of the US and underestimate how much it has rapidly declined the last decades.
I also think you underestimate how much effort it takes to really start over and become properly integrated in a new country. It is a very enticing prospect for many to side-step this issue entirely and still get an almost unfathomable salary for some countries.
I also think you underestimate how much effort it takes to really start over and become properly integrated in a new country. It is a very enticing prospect for many to side-step this issue entirely and still get an almost unfathomable salary for some countries.
I've personally been remote since 1999 and run teams from around the world since then. The largest was a company I grew to ~130+ people over 18 countries. I know you are underestimating the rep of the USA outside of politics and the dysfunction :)
Remote is a great opportunity and one I've used at every company I've built. But, the thing that draws global talent is money, and American companies have all the money. If anything this is going to hurt local companies who can't compete for top talent hiring out of the USA :)
I will note, i think Canada is doing a great job of being pro-immigrant in a way the USA can't and American companies are opening lots of offices and hiring there.
Remote is a great opportunity and one I've used at every company I've built. But, the thing that draws global talent is money, and American companies have all the money. If anything this is going to hurt local companies who can't compete for top talent hiring out of the USA :)
I will note, i think Canada is doing a great job of being pro-immigrant in a way the USA can't and American companies are opening lots of offices and hiring there.
> I know you are underestimating the rep of the USA outside of politics and the dysfunction
I don’t really understand. Why would I disregard “the dysfunction”? That’s very much at the core of what shapes the rest of the worlds perception of the US.
Agree on the second point though. It does (potentially) globalise the job market quite a bit.
I don’t really understand. Why would I disregard “the dysfunction”? That’s very much at the core of what shapes the rest of the worlds perception of the US.
Agree on the second point though. It does (potentially) globalise the job market quite a bit.
Tons of people want to move to the USA for nature, stability, pay, freedom of expression, freedom of speech/religion/life, low corruption, house prices are low compared to many many places, mixing pot, opportunity, american dream etc...
The power of the American narrative is huge.
I know so many devs in Brazil who want to live to USA or Germany, as well as many other places. Those places have problems at a much higher level than our current stuff.
The power of the American narrative is huge.
I know so many devs in Brazil who want to live to USA or Germany, as well as many other places. Those places have problems at a much higher level than our current stuff.
>Tons of people want to move to the USA for nature, stability, pay, freedom of expression, freedom of speech/religion/life, low corruption, house prices are low compared to many many places, mixing pot, opportunity, american dream etc...
High level of crime, too much politics, education too expensive, healthcare too expensive, no public pension funds.
High level of crime, too much politics, education too expensive, healthcare too expensive, no public pension funds.
Totally agreed with you :)
But the key point being narrative around the American dream, freedom of religion/expression, and all the other things I mentioned. Moving to a new place and taking a risk is a feeling based decision. Sure we might dress it up with some logic, but at the end of the day the USA has soft power in spades.
But the key point being narrative around the American dream, freedom of religion/expression, and all the other things I mentioned. Moving to a new place and taking a risk is a feeling based decision. Sure we might dress it up with some logic, but at the end of the day the USA has soft power in spades.
It has relative soft power. The reason you hear lots of Brazilian devs wanting to move is due to the tremendous problems Brazil is facing. Not all countries have problems to this extent.
From a EU-centric perspective the soft power the US have is not that strong.
From a EU-centric perspective the soft power the US have is not that strong.
I totally agree with you. I live in Europe.
But, globally brand America's brand is quite strong still. And that is my point, don't forget how powerful that brand has been for the last 100 years. It doesn't disappear overnight.
But, globally brand America's brand is quite strong still. And that is my point, don't forget how powerful that brand has been for the last 100 years. It doesn't disappear overnight.
And I think you overestimate how much things have rapidly declined. Is the US's heyday in the past? Of course. It is on a decline. But if your entire lens of what is happening in the country is news channels and the Internet, you need a reality check. As Dave Chappelle said, Twitter is not a real place.
> But if your entire lens of what is happening in the country is news channels and the Internet, you need a reality check.
Not sure what your point is. How do you think people shape their opinions and perceptions on things if not via media and the internet?
What would this “reality check” consist of? I would move to the US for a number of years just so I can determine whether I want to move there? Should I read the collected works of David Foster Wallace?
It’s perception we’re talking about here. It doesn’t have to be rational nor accurate.
Not sure what your point is. How do you think people shape their opinions and perceptions on things if not via media and the internet?
What would this “reality check” consist of? I would move to the US for a number of years just so I can determine whether I want to move there? Should I read the collected works of David Foster Wallace?
It’s perception we’re talking about here. It doesn’t have to be rational nor accurate.
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> I think you overestimate the reputation of the US and underestimate how much it has rapidly declined the last decades.
How has it rapidly declined? Please list the ways. I don't necessarily disagree, but I am curious.
How has it rapidly declined? Please list the ways. I don't necessarily disagree, but I am curious.
Behaviour of the conservative side of the country has been grim the last 10+ years, unless you’re white. Overall, the country is right-centre as compared to the western world. Politics is constant yet government is in gridlock. Health care is costly and intermittent being tied to employment. Social cohesion and support isn’t particularly good. But there’s money to be had if you don’t mind the cost.
These are the biggest universities in America today. None of them existed 50 years ago. They are the future of college education in America.
#1 Western Governors University (WGU) North Carolina 121,437
#2 Southern New Hampshire University New Hampshire 104,068
#3 Grand Canyon University Arizona 90,253
#4 Liberty University Virginia 79,152
#5 Ivy Tech Community College - Central Indiana Indiana 72,006
#1 Western Governors University (WGU) North Carolina 121,437
#2 Southern New Hampshire University New Hampshire 104,068
#3 Grand Canyon University Arizona 90,253
#4 Liberty University Virginia 79,152
#5 Ivy Tech Community College - Central Indiana Indiana 72,006
Uh, this makes zero sense. This is just places that are inexpensive to get degrees from because many places now require college degrees for jobs that don't need them. They are not "the future of college education" in any real leadership sense, no more than Coursera is "the future of education."
Don't think the article is arguing that 'broken' countries are poised to benefit here? They specifically say "political and monetary stability". The US does not have a monopoly on that worldwide. In terms of affordability - the US is one of the least affordable places - do you have any idea what an entry-level SE salary can get you in other countries?
Agreed, but if you read down the list the author notes in that list Panama, Croatia, which while beautiful and stable in some ways... are also knows for corruption and other issues.
The USA is very affordable if you look outside of SF/NY and compare it to Western Europe (esp with tech pay). What are you comparing it too?
The USA is very affordable if you look outside of SF/NY and compare it to Western Europe (esp with tech pay). What are you comparing it too?
It's certainly affordable with tech pay - but... that's the point of the article isn't it? Tech pay is sky high because US is overvaluing US talent. Most millennials in the US cannot afford to buy a home here.
Agreed Panama is a bad example, but not Croatia - it's politically stable, and I don't believe many people leave because of corruption.
Agreed Panama is a bad example, but not Croatia - it's politically stable, and I don't believe many people leave because of corruption.
I am not sure the US is overvaluing US talent, I am undecided there...
The average salary of a millenial is $47k a year, average millennial household makes $71k. The average mortgage payment in the USA is $1,487 ($18k over a year). So 25% to 38% of salary right? I think I did that right but feel free to clarify. Seems doable right?
I think the USA is a mess, especially for millennials but when you look at the housing market in Europe for average salaries we are doing really well overall: https://www.statista.com/statistics/237529/price-to-income-r...
Very few people immigrate from anywhere. It is very hard. I don't think people leave because of corruption, my point being they have higher levels than the USA: https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2020/index/nzl
The average salary of a millenial is $47k a year, average millennial household makes $71k. The average mortgage payment in the USA is $1,487 ($18k over a year). So 25% to 38% of salary right? I think I did that right but feel free to clarify. Seems doable right?
I think the USA is a mess, especially for millennials but when you look at the housing market in Europe for average salaries we are doing really well overall: https://www.statista.com/statistics/237529/price-to-income-r...
Very few people immigrate from anywhere. It is very hard. I don't think people leave because of corruption, my point being they have higher levels than the USA: https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2020/index/nzl
I think it's really difficult to compare all of these statistics. Take Germany:
It is very normal to rent your whole life, especially in big cities. Renter laws are very strong. House ownership is higher in rich, rural parts of the country (think south of Munich), so this skews the average house price. Also the quality floor is much higher than in the US, pushing up average prices. $20k trailer park homes simply do not exist in Germany.
It is very normal to rent your whole life, especially in big cities. Renter laws are very strong. House ownership is higher in rich, rural parts of the country (think south of Munich), so this skews the average house price. Also the quality floor is much higher than in the US, pushing up average prices. $20k trailer park homes simply do not exist in Germany.
> Tech pay is sky high because US is overvaluing US talent
This statement feels like it requires a lot of justification. I work for a large company, we are happy to hire out of Europe, SA, or anywhere else so long as they can work on their team's time zone. We are willing to beat basically any offer you'd imagine getting in those areas and hiring is still hard, qualified and experienced people are a rarity.
When thinking about "overvaluing talent" it's worth remembering that just 5 years ago the big tech companies actively conspired to keep pay down because margins on developers making 120-150k were just insanely high[0].
[0] https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2015/01/16/37...
This statement feels like it requires a lot of justification. I work for a large company, we are happy to hire out of Europe, SA, or anywhere else so long as they can work on their team's time zone. We are willing to beat basically any offer you'd imagine getting in those areas and hiring is still hard, qualified and experienced people are a rarity.
When thinking about "overvaluing talent" it's worth remembering that just 5 years ago the big tech companies actively conspired to keep pay down because margins on developers making 120-150k were just insanely high[0].
[0] https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2015/01/16/37...
> low corruption
I’m sorry, what? Ask anyone in NYC what they think of the corruption. Ask them if they feel that the taxes they pay are put to a good use. Ask what they think of MTA, of the unions, of the mafia connections.
And ask any expat what they think of lobbying, a.k.a. legal corruption.
I’m sorry, what? Ask anyone in NYC what they think of the corruption. Ask them if they feel that the taxes they pay are put to a good use. Ask what they think of MTA, of the unions, of the mafia connections.
And ask any expat what they think of lobbying, a.k.a. legal corruption.
Compare corruption in NYC to India or Thailand or Romania :)
A waist high pile of poop is much different from one the size of a skyscraper. I am not saying it doesn't have aspects of corruption, but it is low and solid resources on the local and national level to constantly investigate and make cases.
Legalizing corruption through lobbying is a good move. There are other options but better than keeping it underground.
A waist high pile of poop is much different from one the size of a skyscraper. I am not saying it doesn't have aspects of corruption, but it is low and solid resources on the local and national level to constantly investigate and make cases.
Legalizing corruption through lobbying is a good move. There are other options but better than keeping it underground.
>Compare corruption in NYC to India or Thailand or Romania :)
Corruption in Romania and other Eastern European countries is more generalized in the sense that there is more small corruption. Corruption cases in US are more serious.
Corruption in Romania and other Eastern European countries is more generalized in the sense that there is more small corruption. Corruption cases in US are more serious.
proof? data?
Not backed up by a lot of companies/orgs/data... https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2020/index/rou https://risk-indexes.com/global-corruption-index/ https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/corruption-index
Not backed up by a lot of companies/orgs/data... https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2020/index/rou https://risk-indexes.com/global-corruption-index/ https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/corruption-index
I love paying taxes in NYC. I estimate NYC taxpayers saved me ~$100K in medical bills when I unexpectedly needed surgery and qualified for low-income Medicare coverage. I love that I’m again a heavy contributor to that system and happily so. And I love watching bike lanes built left and right, I love the city buying up empty lots to build parks, I love the Marathon, the “5 Boro” bike tour, the incredible (and heavily subsidized) ferry service, the public school free lunch programs, the vaccine outreach campaigns, the reliable snow removal, and the wonderful collection of libraries and museums and public spaces that are free and open to me. I love that the city cuts long-term lease deals with multi-tenant property owners to guarantee supply of low-income housing. A bunch of my friends grew up in that kind of housing and some of my sweetest neighbors live there now. I think MTA is one of the very BEST features of this or any world-class city — trains run all night! And it makes me super happy whenever I’m going somewhere at 5am and the train is packed with workers in steel-toed boots and jackets with local union patches commuting to the job site. I think my taxes are spent well enough — I know this because I love living here and have never given a serious thought to leaving for tax avoidance or whatever other fake drama is being projected onto this city from afar.
You Americans have no idea how you have it good, do you? If you think NYC is corrupt, let's trade passports, see how you like brasilia.
Not sure how the rest of the world still views the USA, but as a Canadian the states no longer has a solid reputation for any of those things. The sad thing is that most Americans still believe they're #1 at almost everything.
Canadians who read the news and keep abreast of such things would have a bad view of things (as they should). But, the reality is the USA still has all these things even if cracks are appearing. Don't let the hype cycle and media's focus on the bad lose sight of the big picture. I wouldn't expect many Canadians are immigrating anyway as you are in the top 10 well governed countries globally.
Agreed, America's biggest problem is that 40% of Americans believe they are #1 at everything :). We should be stealing ideas left and right from other countries and instead we are stagnating under the belief that only we know how to do things.
Agreed, America's biggest problem is that 40% of Americans believe they are #1 at everything :). We should be stealing ideas left and right from other countries and instead we are stagnating under the belief that only we know how to do things.
As an American who lives abroad, I specifically chose to leave because it's a place riddled with corruption, has a rigged justice system, whose political climate stifles free speech, is totally unaffordable in any of the urban centers, and has a depressingly incompetent bureaucracy on the local/state level (I'm looking at you, San Francisco...).
I don't know if this is possible considering many of the big SV companies demand their talent to be on-site. Even Amazon which has become a cornerstone of cloud hosting is basically stuck with on-site/office attendance policies. So, I really don't see remote work being the silver bullet to kill the on-site/office beast. It'll be a generational change and not simply a change due to one pandemic.
Much ado about nothing. Developer jobs have been able to be outsourced and work remote for a couple of decades. If it was going to go that way it would have long ago. The rest of the world might be catching up to the remote work game but software development has been there, done that. If anything we've already experienced a pullback where outsourced developer jobs have been pulled back when they experienced the problems with it.
Agreed. The "worst" I see happening is some US tech jobs will go to Canada, since the time zones are "compatible" and culture is similar. People from Central and South America will get in the game somewhat as well, but I still think cultural and language barriers cause enough problems that there's still a bit of a moat.
We've already been offshoring to Asia and Eastern Europe for decades now, and even though we should have a good handle on what does and doesn't work by now, I still see companies making the same mistakes, and either having to pull back, or just fail and be too blinded by hubris to figure out why.
We've already been offshoring to Asia and Eastern Europe for decades now, and even though we should have a good handle on what does and doesn't work by now, I still see companies making the same mistakes, and either having to pull back, or just fail and be too blinded by hubris to figure out why.
As someone from a second-tier Canadian city that had relatively few tech employers, this has definitely been a boon. Previously there was one game in town, and they attracted talent with a fancy office and above-market salaries for the region. I left after a couple years and joined a bay area startup remotely for a ~30% pay raise, and several of my former coworkers have as well. The company in question is suffering from a brain drain as old-time employees leave for greener pastures, and they struggle to attract international talent - because they didn't have much cross-polination with other tech companies in the past, there's a ton of NIH built by very smart new grads with no real world experience, and experienced engineers tend to take off once they realize the extent of the problems.
Language and cultural barriers are not a problem if you hire people to directly work in the team.
They are not problem if you do hiring directly and select right people.
Biggest problem is that companies want to hire bunch of worm bodies and dump trash tasks on them.
Managers expect that they will be able to throw vague requirements and bunch of people who are not part of their company will figure out what to do. What is especially funny that bad things happen even with people inside companies when manager tries to just throw vague requirements at dev team.
It is also problem with big "software houses" where you hire bunch of people - nowadays people have good internet at homes are much more conscious and one can hire specialists directly from other country and skip BS providers.
They are not problem if you do hiring directly and select right people.
Biggest problem is that companies want to hire bunch of worm bodies and dump trash tasks on them.
Managers expect that they will be able to throw vague requirements and bunch of people who are not part of their company will figure out what to do. What is especially funny that bad things happen even with people inside companies when manager tries to just throw vague requirements at dev team.
It is also problem with big "software houses" where you hire bunch of people - nowadays people have good internet at homes are much more conscious and one can hire specialists directly from other country and skip BS providers.
>They are not problem if you do hiring directly and select right people.
Hiring directly in other countries is difficult for all but the biggest companies (who probably already have offices in those countries and have been hiring in those countries for years).
Hiring directly in other countries is difficult for all but the biggest companies (who probably already have offices in those countries and have been hiring in those countries for years).
Not if you hire sole proprietor. You just have to pay such person an invoice like you would buy something from abroad.
I work in Poland for company from the Netherlands and I know other people who have "single person company" that are working for companies in UK and US. I even did some work for company based in UAE.
You just have to spend time looking where to find such people. Then of course you have to do trial period to see if they won't flake out but that would be the same as if you would hire someone from US.
I work in Poland for company from the Netherlands and I know other people who have "single person company" that are working for companies in UK and US. I even did some work for company based in UAE.
You just have to spend time looking where to find such people. Then of course you have to do trial period to see if they won't flake out but that would be the same as if you would hire someone from US.
We have contractors in the US as well. But we also have labor laws that govern who can be considered a contractor, as do other countries. It’s more complex than this, but in general treating someone like an employee and paying them as a contractor isn’t legal. If this arrangement gets popular enough to disrupt the labor market, you can expect more enforcement actions.
Regardless of any actual enforcement, most US companies don’t want to deal with the potential issues of getting tangled up in foreign labor disputes, or getting tangled up in foreign courts over IP disputes.
Regardless of any actual enforcement, most US companies don’t want to deal with the potential issues of getting tangled up in foreign labor disputes, or getting tangled up in foreign courts over IP disputes.
time zones are probably the biggest issue i see coming up.
as someone in PST/PDT with a sleep disorder, its pretty easy to work with east coast people. i've had a boss in the UK before and it worked because he was okay with ending his day with a 6pm meeting his time. but working with people on india time is going to be a mess one way or the other.
as someone in PST/PDT with a sleep disorder, its pretty easy to work with east coast people. i've had a boss in the UK before and it worked because he was okay with ending his day with a 6pm meeting his time. but working with people on india time is going to be a mess one way or the other.
I work for a remote-first company and our team is spread across three timezones. It's a PITA.
All the qualified Canadians move to the USA for USA incomes. Canada is going to be an immigration station for people companies want to bring in but can't get US visas for. Its already a thing.
Like in America, few Canadians are ever going to move more than 50 km from where they were born and raised. Your precious jobs are still safe for the right kinds of people.
I think this really isn't true for people who go into 'professional' careers. People who are in high-paying white-collar jobs are fairly willing to move.
This is already slightly out of date. Lots of Bay Area companies hiring in Canada and boosting salaries across the board + RSU grants. The wave started just before COVID and job openings are exploding.
> All the qualified Canadians move to the USA for USA incomes
This is patently untrue. See how well Shopify is doing in Canada.
> Canada is going to be an immigration station for people companies want to bring in but can't get US visas for. Its already a thing.
This is true though!
This is patently untrue. See how well Shopify is doing in Canada.
> Canada is going to be an immigration station for people companies want to bring in but can't get US visas for. Its already a thing.
This is true though!
shopify is literally hiring kids still in school at Carleton and Yorke to fill their teams through their devdegree program because they can't get enough graduated and qualified coders who want to stay in canada.
Oh no, they're giving comp sci students jobs!
That isn't bad in and of itself, merely that they're having so much trouble hiring they need to programs with multiple universities to get people to stay working for them. They have undergraduate students working on production - its not normal.
This. Especially with promotions and management jobs, those will be passed to the buddy's in the office and not that remote worker. I've seen that happen multiple times even though the remote worker was more skilled and experienced. Sure, there are exceptions but human nature won't change in that regard.
This implicitly assumes companies have acted rationally as a whole. It took a pandemic to get the majority of software dev to have a taste of remote work more than 1 day a week. Meanwhile we still have companies who burned their hands on outsourcing to the lowest bidder possible proclaiming remote work as a whole doesn't work. We have companies doing the bare minimum to accommodate remote work point out one deficiency, then proceed to say "look, see? Remote work doesn't work for us!".
I'm skeptical given there's this entire content called "Europe" with tons of English speakers, even native speakers, living largely in a 9-5 culture with plenty of skilled, educated developers willing to work unconventional hours and the US has barely tapped into that workforce yet. Given there are many legal issues and gates, but it's not like the US and Canada are the only places with skilled developers.
I'm skeptical given there's this entire content called "Europe" with tons of English speakers, even native speakers, living largely in a 9-5 culture with plenty of skilled, educated developers willing to work unconventional hours and the US has barely tapped into that workforce yet. Given there are many legal issues and gates, but it's not like the US and Canada are the only places with skilled developers.
The key difference is that a significant number of high-earning software developers employed by U.S. companies are already working remotely, and many of those are working remotely indefinitely.
That was couple of decades of Cognizant or Infosys and likes of them getting contracts and selling their services from their offices.
Now it is the time to build real distributed teams where it is easier to hire a person from other part of the globe to be part of your team.
Working directly with them and not hiring bunch of warm bodies to dump trash tasks on them.
Now it is the time to build real distributed teams where it is easier to hire a person from other part of the globe to be part of your team.
Working directly with them and not hiring bunch of warm bodies to dump trash tasks on them.
yep. A place I worked at was doing the outsourcing thing back in 2010. They had almost immediate regret when they realized the skills of the developers did not meet their expectations and local law prevented the company from firing them without, I believe, 3 documented warnings and attempts to correct performance.
That's also the dirty little secret of digital nomad workers, that those of us that worked remote long before the pandemic already understood: these workers don't follow the law. How many of these people are correctly paying and filing their taxes for each country (or US state!) they work in? Probably close to zero.
Another place I worked had a policy you could best describe as "don't ask, don't tell." They didn't want to know if you were working from the beach in Thailand. As far as they were concerned, you were still in the US state that your forms say you are in.
The legal framework as well as benefits plans have a lot of catching up to do before some new distributed dawn occurs.
That's also the dirty little secret of digital nomad workers, that those of us that worked remote long before the pandemic already understood: these workers don't follow the law. How many of these people are correctly paying and filing their taxes for each country (or US state!) they work in? Probably close to zero.
Another place I worked had a policy you could best describe as "don't ask, don't tell." They didn't want to know if you were working from the beach in Thailand. As far as they were concerned, you were still in the US state that your forms say you are in.
The legal framework as well as benefits plans have a lot of catching up to do before some new distributed dawn occurs.
I'll happily relocate from the UK to a country that isn't sliding towards tyranny. Are there any left???
North Korea is not sliding towards tyranny.
I see the opposite happening. Strong currency and remote work further aggravates brain drain. 2 years of COVID has already impacted terribly the tech startup ecosystem in Brazil. Well, at least in terms of talent. At least, VC money is even more abundant now if you're raising in dollars.
It's happening on Brazil I think. It's very hard to hire for brazilian companies since people can earn an extraordinary salary by working remote. Our timezone is also pretty close to the US east coast, and still not that far from SV.
Also Argentina. I've worked with several very talented developers remote from Argentina. UTC-3.
+1 for Argentina. There's an argument from the book Germs, Guns, Steel that in the past civilizations flourished most where geography allowed for trade to happen at roughly the same latitude, where all the same crops would grow and could spread - for example, Europe and the fertile crescent, which is in contrast to the Americas and Africa. Now there seems to be a opposite effect happening along longitudes around remote work because of time zones, and I would expect South America, despite the lower % of English speakers, to be at least as big of a receiver of SV benefits as Europe in the short term and probably bigger over the long term.
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This is a bit off topic, but wrt working for an US company - US programming salaries are weird - it used to be a decade ago, that programming salaries were roughly in line with other domains in engineering, while most places required a STEM degree as well, meaning both engineering and CS employed roughly the same talent pool at similar wages. Imo, this estimation still holds in the rest of the world, but CS salaries in the US have skyrocketed, while companies opened up to the idea of hiring any enterprising leetcoder.
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There’s two directions to it. I’ve read crowing articles via HN about how it opens the US up to hiring from the world, it also opens up the world to hiring from the rest of the world and from the US.
It’s not just “outsourcing” that’s gone remote, it’s key players and teams. That’s a big difference from earlier waves.
The ability to pay and live appropriately will be the chief determinator. US companies might pay better on average, but we may start seeing larger and brighter sparks elsewhere in the world.
It’s not just “outsourcing” that’s gone remote, it’s key players and teams. That’s a big difference from earlier waves.
The ability to pay and live appropriately will be the chief determinator. US companies might pay better on average, but we may start seeing larger and brighter sparks elsewhere in the world.
"illigal online workers" is going to become a term. Why hire a junior in the U.S. for 80K when you can hire a Junior in India for 15K? There isn't some magic difference. Programming is a universal language, the only difference in who can program and who can't is funding of education. We are doing very, very poorly on education funding in the U.S., with only the top uni's with impossible tuiton costs providing anything of value.
I'd love to believe this is true, but time differences between East/West Coast US alone makes collaboration incredibly tedious.
I'm really not a believer in distributed, remote teams due to time issues. It's more feasible in a similar time zone +/- 1 hour. Beyond that you end up with people working into their lunch hours, etc.
Global time differences within teams are really just a massive headache and a non-starter for most organizations.
I'm really not a believer in distributed, remote teams due to time issues. It's more feasible in a similar time zone +/- 1 hour. Beyond that you end up with people working into their lunch hours, etc.
Global time differences within teams are really just a massive headache and a non-starter for most organizations.
Remote work come with sinchronization and communication costs, international remote work even more so.
it's not a given that an entirely remote workforce is more cost effective than a partial remote workforce - outsourcing has been there for decades after all, and it hasn't been an existential threat to local jobs - remote worker lack the middleman costs but also the organizational support and work structure.
it's not a given that an entirely remote workforce is more cost effective than a partial remote workforce - outsourcing has been there for decades after all, and it hasn't been an existential threat to local jobs - remote worker lack the middleman costs but also the organizational support and work structure.
The software development job market doesn't even encompass large parts of the US labor market, such as women, black and brown minorities, and poor communities. It's not suddenly going to open to the entire world.
The education system and opportunities in the latter create very little chance that those kids will grow up to work for Google. I've had CS teachers in the magnet schools - these classes should be the top CS high school students in the district - ask me to donate old broken computers to work on. When the pandemic started and home schooling became a need, I read that some poor districts discovered that 50% of their students lacked a computer at home - their only Internet connection was via phone. I've had employers tell me that (a few) kids didn't know how to use a full-sized keyboard. Think how far that is from becoming a developer; think of the vision required and the obstacles they would have to overcome.
You need more than an Internet connection to have an opportunity to become a software developer, or for any job.
(Writing that makes me think: A development environment designed for beginning developers using phones might give some of these people one piece of the puzzle. Vim isn't so great on a phone.)
The education system and opportunities in the latter create very little chance that those kids will grow up to work for Google. I've had CS teachers in the magnet schools - these classes should be the top CS high school students in the district - ask me to donate old broken computers to work on. When the pandemic started and home schooling became a need, I read that some poor districts discovered that 50% of their students lacked a computer at home - their only Internet connection was via phone. I've had employers tell me that (a few) kids didn't know how to use a full-sized keyboard. Think how far that is from becoming a developer; think of the vision required and the obstacles they would have to overcome.
You need more than an Internet connection to have an opportunity to become a software developer, or for any job.
(Writing that makes me think: A development environment designed for beginning developers using phones might give some of these people one piece of the puzzle. Vim isn't so great on a phone.)
I am from Nepal and I have seen that US companies who can see this is the future of work are getting the best deals. They are paying decent money by US standard to Nepali top 1% developers for whom its a very good salary and getting an enormous return in result.
I think US devs that work on high IQ projects have nothing to worry about. It's very hard to find high IQ devs outside of the developed countries - trust me, I've tried. Whilst there are some, they're not nearly enough to influence the jobs market (and they usually charge US rates). I think the local environment plays a big role - stuff like early childhood nutrition, healthcare, clean water and air, a good education system that can recognize and develop talent. That's usually missing in developing countries.
I do think there's a decent chance CRUD-related dev work wages will probably be suppressed. I think that's because the work is easier, so lower IQ people can do it well but also (and probably more importantly) a lot of that work is in the process of being automated anyway.
I do think there's a decent chance CRUD-related dev work wages will probably be suppressed. I think that's because the work is easier, so lower IQ people can do it well but also (and probably more importantly) a lot of that work is in the process of being automated anyway.
Remote work favors efficient performers on their own to-do lists.
In the short term, it will can be super productive
Remote work does not work when part of the job is helping others, learning from others. Figuring out things.
Remote work does not work when part of the job is helping others, learning from others. Figuring out things.
I have no trouble helping and communicating with people remotely. Some days most of my time is spent helping others and it's a lot easier over the internet, since I can switch between people rapidly and have several conversations going at once.
I have been hiring from overseas for a while; great talent at awesome rates. As a CS student in the USA, I would assume I am competing against the rest of the world right now.
But other countries don’t want to pay.
EU, for instance, might be paying even less than developing countries (but mostly due to social charges, which may not apply to overseas workers?).
EU, for instance, might be paying even less than developing countries (but mostly due to social charges, which may not apply to overseas workers?).
It's hard to take this seriously when it doesn't acknowledge that remote work is nothing new, or that people have been making this prediction for decades.
It wont, US tech companies are making money hand over fist - they want more people to make them more money, they don’t need slower communication for less money.
Not flat wrong. The countries list is, however, quite inaccurate.
Croatia is not palatable for reasons other than geography, for example.
Croatia is not palatable for reasons other than geography, for example.
The last time the US outsourced its manufacturing jobs to the cheapest rest of the world, it wasnt exactly a disaster.
Similarly, remote work will break major cities' monopoly on high-income workers.
People underestimate the overhead and difficulties that make companies reluctant to hire in different countries.
Companies don't even really want to deal with different employment regulations and tax policies across different US states.
Companies don't even really want to deal with different employment regulations and tax policies across different US states.
Not if we keep attracting it by being a desirable place to live (at least relative to others). The "American Century" was largely built on brain drain from totalitarian regimes like Nazi Germany and the USSR.
If China threatens Taiwan it would be idiotic if the USA did not offer open work visas and fast path citizenship for any Taiwanese refugees that want to leave. This would be the best non-military option for dealing with that, and would help us benefit from brain drain.
If China threatens Taiwan it would be idiotic if the USA did not offer open work visas and fast path citizenship for any Taiwanese refugees that want to leave. This would be the best non-military option for dealing with that, and would help us benefit from brain drain.
Other than the classic issues like time zones etc. there are some weird rules and regulations regarding worker insurance. A buddy of mine used to get into flak for being outside the US for too long even though he was in sales and always exceeded his quotas. This was the case all before Covid and apparently the rules have still not changed for them.
Crypto has blown this up already. Teams are almost always decentralised.
- no country pay like the US. Worked for silicon valley companies remotely, and made twice the money I made in France, while being 3 times cheaper than local competition.
- no country have the volume of hi-level coding gig job offers the US has.
- few countries even have has many interesting projects. If you want to code in Haskell or Lisp in Europe, good luck.
- the USA don't care about your diploma, only what you can do. You will be limited in opportunities and earnings depending of your background in many countries.
- talent attract talent. It's better to work with companies already full of good devs, the colleagues are coolers, the projects are more interesting and the infra will be better. Inertia is in favor of the USA.
So no, it will break no monopoly. If anything, it will make it easier to work FOR the US.