'Google' is most searched word on Bing(bbc.com)
bbc.com
'Google' is most searched word on Bing
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58749525
188 comments
No thanks, I'd rather have a simple and obvious checkbox to disable all this sleazy web crap in the Windows UI. If I want to search the web, I use a web browser. If I want to search my machine, I would like to use the Windows search feature (if it would actually work).
By the same token we shouldn't need all that crap in omnibox either. It is all about the quality of information and decluttering
I quite like that the omni box will do math and unit conversions. So handy, so simple.
I think parent point was that if it was well done we would like it in the start menu, but if it was only 99% ok or below we would hate it.
Omnibox sucked until it reached a point where it didn't.
But microsoft is so focused on competing to google's product that they fail to realize they don't even need to go there.
With that said, we're talking about a company who can't even search properly for the installed app given the infinite resource of a modern computer and an app list below a hundred, so I don't want them to make the search menu/search any more of a disaster.
Omnibox sucked until it reached a point where it didn't.
But microsoft is so focused on competing to google's product that they fail to realize they don't even need to go there.
With that said, we're talking about a company who can't even search properly for the installed app given the infinite resource of a modern computer and an app list below a hundred, so I don't want them to make the search menu/search any more of a disaster.
Or maybe omnibox sucked until search got so bad that omnibox is better.
I get really annoyed when I shop for a part number that has a - and $searchEngine just wants to show me the answer to a subtraction question.
Quotes, "this-string must-exist", is a pattern that all search tools really need to obey. Though I do give them slack if they also match runs of equivalent word-character-only strings E.G. "this string must exist" in the same search.
Right. We all know how this would end up:
Start->Begin Typing->Wait 10 seconds as the menu hangs because it can't resolve some ad
Start->Begin Typing->Wait 10 seconds as the menu hangs because it can't resolve some ad
That’s…already how it is? I seriously cannot believe how bad the start menu still is in 2021 given how limited the scope of core functionality is. Somehow, simply surfacing the main entry points into dozens of GUI applications is a Herculean task that a modern OS simply cannot accomplish.
seriously I hate that they randomly add websearch results to the search bar so much
But it’s because of an execution problem. On Apple devices nobody complains that Spotlight searches the web, most people like it.
Ja, the best advice I ever heard was, "do something right and the money will (probably) follow".
Sure it's a massive generalization and doesn't always "work" but dammit it's a very good starting point. Much better than:
"How do we get the most money for a user ?"
Sure it's a massive generalization and doesn't always "work" but dammit it's a very good starting point. Much better than:
"How do we get the most money for a user ?"
>show me the result of the multiplication instead of a link to "search web for 8*9"
As far as I can tell - it already does this. Now I hate how it works and it looks bad, but it does show web search results for what I type in the start menu.
And I will actually push back a bit on the start menu because I hate that the start menu searches the web. I want it to search my computer, I have a browser for web searches.
As far as I can tell - it already does this. Now I hate how it works and it looks bad, but it does show web search results for what I type in the start menu.
And I will actually push back a bit on the start menu because I hate that the start menu searches the web. I want it to search my computer, I have a browser for web searches.
i must be doing something wrong. I get a list of suggested web searches, not a list of results. like "search for 8*9", "search for 8*96" etc
Huh - when I type 8*9 I get a search pane (that shows what you are describing) and a web pane. The web pane shows bing results.
i seem to have turned that off somewhere - better, i think that interface is too much information. Neither of us gets 72 though
I get a calculator showing 72: https://imgur.com/a/ukQtOwn
That calculator looks like that's part of the Bing results page... so it made an HTTPS connection and parsed some HTML, JS and CSS to show what 8*9 is.
It'd be even better if it said "You need to consent to these 100 cookies for us to show you what 8*9 is".
It'd be even better if it said "You need to consent to these 100 cookies for us to show you what 8*9 is".
You can disable it with a registry variable or through an app like Winaero Tweaker.
As far as I can tell, it already does this, and it's my most hated "feature". The delay while it does the search, combined with everything shuffling around at the end of that delay is terrible for me.
Personally, if I want to use the web, I'll open a browser. That's not the role I have for my OS, I don't want. And if it does have that capability, providing an alternate search engine should be doable, and it should respect my default browser.
Personally, if I want to use the web, I'll open a browser. That's not the role I have for my OS, I don't want. And if it does have that capability, providing an alternate search engine should be doable, and it should respect my default browser.
It doesn't do this, because it's not smart and treat everything the same way. You first need to figure out what kind of content the user is talking about, and then go around that.
Microsoft system doesn't care if you're typing calc.exe or John Smith or 8x9 it will do the crappy web search, crappy app search, crappy store search, crappy calendar search, and vomit a mix of useless results in your face.
That's what makes it "hard" to do it right, and frankly something that microsoft just doesn't have in their dna (if they did, their start menu search wouldn't be so horrible). I think an OS that did it right would be improved, and I hope to hell and back that microsoft won't try it because they will never succeed at that.
Microsoft system doesn't care if you're typing calc.exe or John Smith or 8x9 it will do the crappy web search, crappy app search, crappy store search, crappy calendar search, and vomit a mix of useless results in your face.
That's what makes it "hard" to do it right, and frankly something that microsoft just doesn't have in their dna (if they did, their start menu search wouldn't be so horrible). I think an OS that did it right would be improved, and I hope to hell and back that microsoft won't try it because they will never succeed at that.
KDE and macOS managed. I don't understand why Microsoft cannot.
Maybe there are external forces preventing them. Be it patents or even just the threat of being accused of anti-competitive practices again?
Maybe there are external forces preventing them. Be it patents or even just the threat of being accused of anti-competitive practices again?
There has simply never been a product or feature in the search world (online or offline) where Microsoft got it, everything they have that works is when they dropped their idea and just copied whatever the other guys were doing.
For me they just don't get search, like, the very idea of search or not just searching, it's understanding what you're searching for. And when you bring that down to the start menu, it become super clear and obvious that they're out of their league.
For me they just don't get search, like, the very idea of search or not just searching, it's understanding what you're searching for. And when you bring that down to the start menu, it become super clear and obvious that they're out of their league.
It does do this, if I put 8*9 in the start menu a little embedded calculator comes up that says 72. It does also prompt me to "see web results" for 8*9 though.
It doesn't, at least not in the way it should. It's not windows figuring it out and giving you a specific result, it's just a webview into Bing, and bing that show the results that way. That's why just under the calculator you have a link to a streetwear clothes brand.
You might think "so what, it does work" but 99% of the issues in the start search are due to this offloading to bing that is not aware of your local computer and data.
You might think "so what, it does work" but 99% of the issues in the start search are due to this offloading to bing that is not aware of your local computer and data.
another HN commenter had a solution (I tried, it works perfectly): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28556897 (use the code from mikevm)
> When i search 89 in the start menu, show me the result of the multiplication instead of a link to "search web for 89".
I was pretty sure it already did this...Just tried it again because you made me second guess myself and yup, sure enough, it already does this.
I was pretty sure it already did this...Just tried it again because you made me second guess myself and yup, sure enough, it already does this.
I remember loading the Mac Spotlight and trying to calculate some decimal numbers, let's say 63.10 * 3.50 . But because the Mac was expecting the German locale with "," as a decimal separator, it just silently gave me 2208500 instead of 220.85 (or 220,85).
Wow.. at least show me I goofed up, you useless piece of software!
Wow.. at least show me I goofed up, you useless piece of software!
I mean, if it wasn't a bug that it was expecting German, then it didn't do anything wrong. The most I could see feasible would be, if you press the wrong decimal separator, the system asks if you want to change or correct the locale setting for math
Part of Google's success nowadays, I think, is that typing stuff in a browser's address bar takes you straight to Google's search results page. They turned Google into the replacement for typing in web addresses.
They also force this behaviour on Chrome and (I'm pretty sure) Firefox.
Used to be, Firefox would show previously visited sites/pages (arranged by how often you visit them) first.
Now it loads Google search results first and I very often step into them like it's some dogshit on the ground.
Used to be, Firefox would show previously visited sites/pages (arranged by how often you visit them) first.
Now it loads Google search results first and I very often step into them like it's some dogshit on the ground.
For me, FF shows matches from History first (they have a little clock icon), followed by search results (which aren't from GOOG if you have switched your default search engine to something else, mine are all 'search with DuckDuckGo'), followed by 'Firefox Suggest' which looks to be bookmarks that somehow match whatever I typed in the location bar, at least for me.
Indeed so. More here and on how Firefox is the only mainstream browser, option if you are interested in more than one lens: https://blog.mojeek.com/2021/09/multiple-choice-in-search.ht...
When you type into the Safari address bar, it drops down a list of search results while you're typing. I am guessing this comes from the long-promised Apple search engine. It works well enough that I often find myself skipping the Google search results page altogether.
Aren't these search results coming from Google?
This is default behavior on my Pixel phone made by Google. When I swipe up and try to search for apps on my phone, it most often starts showing me search completion results from web.
windows is like an early 2000s web site with a title like 'Top Ten Life Hacks ...' with ad ridden pages where you must search through them to barely make out a sniff of the content you were ostensibly promised, and then a 'next page' button that will lead you into another ad ridden nightmare. windows is a corporate created abomination where the combined deluded career ambitions of hundred or so corporate careerists collectively pool and fester
They essentially remade Windows in the image of the Bing website. Yeesh.
> When i search 8*9 in the start menu, show me the result of the multiplication
but how is that going to increase the server hit rate directly tied to $employee (pardon, %EMPLOYEE%)'s annual wage increase ?
but how is that going to increase the server hit rate directly tied to $employee (pardon, %EMPLOYEE%)'s annual wage increase ?
For all but a handful of things, I've replaced my Start menu with PowerToys Run.
KRunner in KDE 5 (default shortcut: Alt+F2, but also replicated at the bottom of the start menu) does that. The modules for different purposes (like running applications/shell commands, searching browser tabs/history/bookmarks, searching files/emails/contacts, openstreetmap, etc.) are pluggable and can be easily disabled if the functionality is not desired by the user.
Part of the problem Microsoft have is that they just set the default to bing, people open it and don’t know what it is so search google.
These same people don’t know how to change their default search so keep searching for google.
If they wanted these people to stay they should get rid of their background image and just give a search box like google does - basically trick people into staying.
These same people don’t know how to change their default search so keep searching for google.
If they wanted these people to stay they should get rid of their background image and just give a search box like google does - basically trick people into staying.
Something I've noticed with my work machine. The homepage in Edge is some mangled mash up of Bing News tiles and my works' SharePoint activity, and is just branded 'Microsoft'. Non technical people stuck with this homepage are very likely to just type 'Google' into it to "get them out onto the Internet".
And technical people might prefer faster loading lightweight pages to Bing’s. Target audience for bing is weird.
The target audience for Bing's homepage is a bunch of product owners in MS who want their crap on the homepage to try to increase their interaction metrics.
I used google maps the other day on my phone for the first in in ages (to see if they had anything for the fuel issues in the UK at the moment). I was amazed how full of junk I wasn't interested in getting in the way of the actual map.
I remember when google beat places like yahoo and excite because it had a simple clean interface.
I remember when google beat places like yahoo and excite because it had a simple clean interface.
Yea, the Edge homepage is atrocious and looks like a spam site. I don't blame people for wanting to get away from it and to something that looks more trustworthy ASAP.
I finally got so fed up with Edge quietly changing my preferences back to their defaults I decided to completely stop using it. I have an MS account, Office 365 for work, etc. I thought, this is great, I'll continue using Firefox for personal and Edge for work, it integrates with my company account, that's neat.
But no, they can't leave well enough alone and just let me use my machine the way I want to. I don't want news on my work homepage, heck, even the weather widget bugs me because I can't turn it off.
So I found the Edge executable, added "off" to the end of the file name and now it's just sitting there, broken. I'm sure some update will come along and "fix" it for me but for now this slightly passive aggressive but mostly useless reaction on my part made me feel slightly better.
I'm not the same MS hater I was in the 1990's but sometimes they make it hard to forget that time, wish they would learn to get out of their own way and mine.
But no, they can't leave well enough alone and just let me use my machine the way I want to. I don't want news on my work homepage, heck, even the weather widget bugs me because I can't turn it off.
So I found the Edge executable, added "off" to the end of the file name and now it's just sitting there, broken. I'm sure some update will come along and "fix" it for me but for now this slightly passive aggressive but mostly useless reaction on my part made me feel slightly better.
I'm not the same MS hater I was in the 1990's but sometimes they make it hard to forget that time, wish they would learn to get out of their own way and mine.
Why not switch to linux? Even if you can’t use an Office 365 alternative, there’s a browser version.
Browser office blows compared to desktop.
Linux has all these driver problems... most things won't work with plug'n'play... I understand why people stick to Windows.
> Linux has all these driver problems... most things won't work with plug'n'play... I understand why people stick to Windows.
Linux of the early 2000s maybe. I've never had a driver problem with Linux, and it has been my primary OS on my desktop and various laptops for the past ~7 years, and I've installed it on computers for other people many times.
Is driver support worse than on Windows? Of course; hardware manufacturers usually only bother to make drivers for Windows.
But is it a problem most people will run in to? Definitely not.
Linux of the early 2000s maybe. I've never had a driver problem with Linux, and it has been my primary OS on my desktop and various laptops for the past ~7 years, and I've installed it on computers for other people many times.
Is driver support worse than on Windows? Of course; hardware manufacturers usually only bother to make drivers for Windows.
But is it a problem most people will run in to? Definitely not.
It wants me to download some app to change my desktop background?!? What is MS teaching people about safe internet browsing.
It's not like Microsoft hasn't been trying to make Bing look like Google Search for years (see this 7 year old article: https://betanews.com/2014/10/14/is-microsoft-trying-to-confu...) - but they have apparently concentrated on copying the format and styling of the results pages, the actual search page which the user first sees is still markedly different. But the "Bing wallpapers" are their USP ("Experience beauty every day - make Bing your homepage"), so they're not willing to give them up...
Alt-F2 on KDE brings up krunner - a small text input floating dialog in which you could type, say, 8 * 9 , and be gifted the value 72. No spam accompanies this result.
Alternatively if I type 'hacker', I shall be shown the three windows I currently have open, along with the 7 bookmarks, that match that string.
Otherwise it's a handy shortcut to launch any application I know is installed on the local host.
I believe it's consistently been providing this service for more than twenty years.
Compare ctrl-escape on Microsoft Windows, which should offer much the same experience.
Often while using Microsoft Windows I am trying to find a way back to a fleeting pop-up that graced a corner of my screen before I could fully read or act upon it. This invariably fails to provide a sensible result. For example, type 'update' if you wish to search for, but certainly not find, the source of the various noisy 'Windows Update' notifications. Prepare thyself for disappointment.*
Alternatively if I type 'hacker', I shall be shown the three windows I currently have open, along with the 7 bookmarks, that match that string.
Otherwise it's a handy shortcut to launch any application I know is installed on the local host.
I believe it's consistently been providing this service for more than twenty years.
Compare ctrl-escape on Microsoft Windows, which should offer much the same experience.
Often while using Microsoft Windows I am trying to find a way back to a fleeting pop-up that graced a corner of my screen before I could fully read or act upon it. This invariably fails to provide a sensible result. For example, type 'update' if you wish to search for, but certainly not find, the source of the various noisy 'Windows Update' notifications. Prepare thyself for disappointment.*
KRunner is one of the many areas where KDE is "secretly amazing".
The level of polish, robustness, ease-of-use and efficiency of today's KDE versions is incredible. It is lightweight, too. This is the desktop environment that stays out of the way, but here when you need it. There are no strong decisions that surprises anyone, things are familiar, there is no hostility towards users requesting obvious features. The user interface does not change so much from versions to versions, but is rather improved (a lot, in tiny ways).
Only, it is secretly so. Nobody seem to know. I don't know what can be done about this.
KRunner is doubly affected by this. It is not quite discoverable, does not get in the way of users not using it, yet is so convenient. I'm lost whenever I'm using another environment just because KRunner is not here.
(it can also be brought up by alt+space, which matches the keys of Launchpad on Macs)
The level of polish, robustness, ease-of-use and efficiency of today's KDE versions is incredible. It is lightweight, too. This is the desktop environment that stays out of the way, but here when you need it. There are no strong decisions that surprises anyone, things are familiar, there is no hostility towards users requesting obvious features. The user interface does not change so much from versions to versions, but is rather improved (a lot, in tiny ways).
Only, it is secretly so. Nobody seem to know. I don't know what can be done about this.
KRunner is doubly affected by this. It is not quite discoverable, does not get in the way of users not using it, yet is so convenient. I'm lost whenever I'm using another environment just because KRunner is not here.
(it can also be brought up by alt+space, which matches the keys of Launchpad on Macs)
> The level of polish, robustness, ease-of-use and efficiency of today's KDE versions is incredible. It is lightweight, too. This is the desktop environment that stays out of the way, but here when you need it. There are no strong decisions that surprises anyone, things are familiar, there is no hostility towards users requesting obvious features. The user interface does not change so much from versions to versions, but is rather improved (a lot, in tiny ways).
KDE 4 was pretty messy - from instability to questionable features or lack of features - 4.0 "released" too early, nepomuk (and later baloo) being a resource hog, the PIM suite pulling in two database servers, amarok only supporting fuzzy filters, virtual desktop support stagnating in favor of "activities", kwin compositing had lots of glitches. Even krunner used to crash or hang frequently. I still have ~/.p script to quickly kill and restart plasma (via krunner, hah) from those days because it would fuck up so often.
Really glad that they spend the time since then motly polishing and KDE 5 has been much better about not shoving unwanted crap down users throats.
KDE 4 was pretty messy - from instability to questionable features or lack of features - 4.0 "released" too early, nepomuk (and later baloo) being a resource hog, the PIM suite pulling in two database servers, amarok only supporting fuzzy filters, virtual desktop support stagnating in favor of "activities", kwin compositing had lots of glitches. Even krunner used to crash or hang frequently. I still have ~/.p script to quickly kill and restart plasma (via krunner, hah) from those days because it would fuck up so often.
Really glad that they spend the time since then motly polishing and KDE 5 has been much better about not shoving unwanted crap down users throats.
> a small text input floating dialog in which you could type, say, 8 * 9 , and be gifted the value 72. No spam accompanies this result.
For Windows, this can be accomplished with PowerToys Run. It's effectively replaced my Start menu for 99% of things.
For Windows, this can be accomplished with PowerToys Run. It's effectively replaced my Start menu for 99% of things.
KRunner is amazing. I mapped it to Alt+Space.
People go to the name they know. Since for many (most?) people, the word “google” is a verb meaning to search the web, they naturally will prefer that service even if they don’t know why it might be better than whatever is the default.
Meanwhile, it reminds me that we developers don’t understand users or don’t provide understandable interfaces for them.
Observe many people and you’ll see a maddening pattern of browser use: they will use any available method to get to google, and then they will put a url into the google search text box. Perhaps the address bar is inconveniently too high on the screen, or maybe they just don’t know what a url is.
Meanwhile, it reminds me that we developers don’t understand users or don’t provide understandable interfaces for them.
Observe many people and you’ll see a maddening pattern of browser use: they will use any available method to get to google, and then they will put a url into the google search text box. Perhaps the address bar is inconveniently too high on the screen, or maybe they just don’t know what a url is.
Not to mention some search “google” in the
Google search box which is there on their browser homepage but not labeled as google. They don’t trust text fields unless it’s in google website’s environment.
Makes me wonder if google might be the most searched term on google as well. I wouldn't be at all surprised.
Facebook was more searched, but not any longer. Probably is some other term still more searched on Google.
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=...
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=...
If you type 'google' into Google, you will break the internet!!!
> Observe many people and you’ll see a maddening pattern of browser use: they will use any available method to get to google, and then they will put a url into the google search text box. Perhaps the address bar is inconveniently too high on the screen, or maybe they just don’t know what a url is.
I would have been dismissive of this a few years ago, but I would have been wrong. I have seen many people including developers, _WEB_ developers, do this. Some of them can't be bothered to change their default search engine even though the option is available, it's almost muscle memory to type 'www.google.com' into the search box, and then click a result, and then search for what they wanted on google.com.
Well they are grateful to me when I change their default search engine for convenience. But when pointing out that they can just type their search terms into the address bar, I am given the indulgent, polite "thank you but not interested in this microefficiency" smile.
I would have been dismissive of this a few years ago, but I would have been wrong. I have seen many people including developers, _WEB_ developers, do this. Some of them can't be bothered to change their default search engine even though the option is available, it's almost muscle memory to type 'www.google.com' into the search box, and then click a result, and then search for what they wanted on google.com.
Well they are grateful to me when I change their default search engine for convenience. But when pointing out that they can just type their search terms into the address bar, I am given the indulgent, polite "thank you but not interested in this microefficiency" smile.
> "thank you but not interested in this microefficiency"
This one. Blows my mind every time.
This one. Blows my mind every time.
> "thank you but not interested in this micro efficiency" smile
I've seen a friend press caps lock, type a letter and press caps again to type capital letters. That's the smile I got when I introduced them the shift key.
Also the smile my niece had when the car mechanic was explaining to him how he could spare some gas money by up-shifting early.
Also the smile I had when my wife was giving me tips on how to plan meetings better.
Humans suck :)
I've seen a friend press caps lock, type a letter and press caps again to type capital letters. That's the smile I got when I introduced them the shift key.
Also the smile my niece had when the car mechanic was explaining to him how he could spare some gas money by up-shifting early.
Also the smile I had when my wife was giving me tips on how to plan meetings better.
Humans suck :)
When we follow the good suggestion, we don't suck at all. That's how humans should work.
It's when we reject the wise advice because... because we're stubborn?... that is when it sucks.
The thing about this url search is that they type the full url, sometimes even with the "http" bit (rarely https, but I digress), into the search field. then they get the results page a second or two later, and then _maybe_ they click the correct result if they didn't get mislead by some crappy SEO magic.
That's a lot of extra work just to get to hopefully arrive at the same page they would have arrived at had they typed that url into the address field.
It's when we reject the wise advice because... because we're stubborn?... that is when it sucks.
The thing about this url search is that they type the full url, sometimes even with the "http" bit (rarely https, but I digress), into the search field. then they get the results page a second or two later, and then _maybe_ they click the correct result if they didn't get mislead by some crappy SEO magic.
That's a lot of extra work just to get to hopefully arrive at the same page they would have arrived at had they typed that url into the address field.
It's the response of "I don't care about this thing, and I don't care about improving it, so please stop making me waste my attention on the thing I don't care about."
In many people nowadays the scarce resource is not time or even money, but attention; and not every aspect in your life is worth your attention to try and improve it, that's premature optimization, wasting effort on improving something that ultimately is insignificant.
In many people nowadays the scarce resource is not time or even money, but attention; and not every aspect in your life is worth your attention to try and improve it, that's premature optimization, wasting effort on improving something that ultimately is insignificant.
> Also the smile my niece had when the car mechanic was explaining to him how he could
Apologies if it was just a typo, but in case English is a second/nth language just FYI that your 'niece' is your brother or sister's daughter; I think you mean 'nephew' (brother or sister's son).
(And, er, if a niece 'identifies' as 'he/him', then I would assume (but who am I to tell them etc.) they would also identify as a son and a nephew thenceforward.)
Apologies if it was just a typo, but in case English is a second/nth language just FYI that your 'niece' is your brother or sister's daughter; I think you mean 'nephew' (brother or sister's son).
(And, er, if a niece 'identifies' as 'he/him', then I would assume (but who am I to tell them etc.) they would also identify as a son and a nephew thenceforward.)
Nephew it is, then! Thanks for the correction!
Everyone does the caps lock thing now, I blame phones, but they must know about Shift to type!"£$%^&*() etc, surely.
Shift on a keyboard is different from shift on phones. On a keyboard you hold two keys down at the same time; on a phone you don't. This is why people use Caps Lock for typing capital letters, so they can press one key at a time.
> I would have been dismissive of this a few years ago, but I would have been wrong. I have seen many people including developers, _WEB_ developers, do this. Some of them can't be bothered to change their default search engine even though the option is available, it's almost muscle memory to type 'www.google.com' into the search box, and then click a result, and then search for what they wanted on google.com.
I go to google.com rather than searching trough the address bar because the google.com homepage has a link to tell it "no, I did not actually want German google" whenever it forgets those cookies while the search result pages do not have that link.
Of course for a while now it will still push localized results with no way to disable that.
I go to google.com rather than searching trough the address bar because the google.com homepage has a link to tell it "no, I did not actually want German google" whenever it forgets those cookies while the search result pages do not have that link.
Of course for a while now it will still push localized results with no way to disable that.
They don't know what a url is, and to them the address bar is the search box, and the search box is the address bar. Developers of all the major browsers made the two elements work interchangeably.
A power user can create a web navigation system with plug-ins and customizations that rival a space shuttle for complexity and sophistication. The novice user, and users that are tech challenged can get stuck on the most basic uses of browsers. The trouble with catering to the "bad users" is that every forced simplification removes an opportunity for learning to be better. Every removed and hidden feature "for their own good" amplifies the feedback loop of dumbing down the user of the software, enabling a stasis of competence hovering around some arbitrarily chosen threshold of functionality.
In the case of big tech, keeping users dumb and incompetent is a tool to reinforce the walled gardens. Keeping the consumer ignorant of nuance and flexibility creates artificial problems that are solved with more dumb software, gatekeeping every possible increment of utility by making everything a commercial transaction.
I had a user who was proudly showing me a 99 cent app that allowed them to ping things from their phone. When I showed them the command line and that they'd already had the ability to do that from their laptop, they were embarrassed and a little annoyed.
Their ignorance was encouraged and cultivated throughout the time they spent trying to find a solution to a problem, guiding them to an app store and to waste money on an app.
Artificial incompetence is the defining feature of those who reside in walled gardens. It seems to be the rock bottom to which big tech companies race, because it's the most efficient way to perpetuate a revenue stream. Not only treating people as incompetents, but developing the ux and ui around that core assumption.
There's definitely a place for simplicity and user friendly design, but artificial incompetence is a scourge, one of the worst anti-patterns affecting consumers. There needs to be a culture shift away from rent seeking software design and toward making users as competent and knowledgeable as possible.
A power user can create a web navigation system with plug-ins and customizations that rival a space shuttle for complexity and sophistication. The novice user, and users that are tech challenged can get stuck on the most basic uses of browsers. The trouble with catering to the "bad users" is that every forced simplification removes an opportunity for learning to be better. Every removed and hidden feature "for their own good" amplifies the feedback loop of dumbing down the user of the software, enabling a stasis of competence hovering around some arbitrarily chosen threshold of functionality.
In the case of big tech, keeping users dumb and incompetent is a tool to reinforce the walled gardens. Keeping the consumer ignorant of nuance and flexibility creates artificial problems that are solved with more dumb software, gatekeeping every possible increment of utility by making everything a commercial transaction.
I had a user who was proudly showing me a 99 cent app that allowed them to ping things from their phone. When I showed them the command line and that they'd already had the ability to do that from their laptop, they were embarrassed and a little annoyed.
Their ignorance was encouraged and cultivated throughout the time they spent trying to find a solution to a problem, guiding them to an app store and to waste money on an app.
Artificial incompetence is the defining feature of those who reside in walled gardens. It seems to be the rock bottom to which big tech companies race, because it's the most efficient way to perpetuate a revenue stream. Not only treating people as incompetents, but developing the ux and ui around that core assumption.
There's definitely a place for simplicity and user friendly design, but artificial incompetence is a scourge, one of the worst anti-patterns affecting consumers. There needs to be a culture shift away from rent seeking software design and toward making users as competent and knowledgeable as possible.
> Developers of all the major browsers made the two elements work interchangeably.
You can still disable that in firefox, but it is so badly tested that it somehow breaks the search field on its default home screen.
You can still disable that in firefox, but it is so badly tested that it somehow breaks the search field on its default home screen.
“Artificial incompetence”
Good one. I’ll be using it. Thanks for that.
Good one. I’ll be using it. Thanks for that.
> the address bar is the search box
I'm talking about people using the address bar just enough to get to google. Once they're looking at the text field where you're invited to enter your search terms, there they type in "www.whatever.com".
I'm talking about people using the address bar just enough to get to google. Once they're looking at the text field where you're invited to enter your search terms, there they type in "www.whatever.com".
And then, after years of being conditioned to treat the first result as an ad, they skip over the link that's clearly labeled "whatever.com", instead clicking the second or third one down for "Get whatever here" and are phished by it.
Adding more fuel to the fire is that most of the benefit in learning the underlying principles of software is being able to build, modify and introspect it. In a terminal, to view a text file, you could use cat. On a phone, you download an app. However, you can't pipe your Free TXT Viewer 2000 to another app (and if you could, it would probably inject ads). As the walled garden closes in, the incentives to learn diminish as being able to accomplish anything with such acquired knowledge will be severely limited.
Your phone has a different operational workflow than your command line. Yes you're not going to "pipe" it, but on my phone I can open an image in my Photos app, click 'share to' and share (open) it either into my Messages app, a file manager app, or an editor, which opens it just fine. Apps can absolutely share data between them. But not in the sense that an output buffer of the program is being injected into another. That really doesn't apply to GUI apps even on your desktop.
If I'm not using bookmark, I'm using the same approach. Because of simple reason: If I would make a typo, Google will correct it and I will not land in a some faecbook.com.
I also don't have to try to remember whether or not Widgeco's Sweden site is widgeco.se, se.widgeco.com or widgeco.com/se.
> Since for many (most?) people, the word “google” is a verb meaning to search the web
I've started to really oppose that, and avoid it in my own speech. ('search' is fine.)
It may sound like a stupid trivial thing, but language is so.. powerful/important, and I don't need Google ingrained in mine. It was difficult/didn't come naturally at first, but now I use 'search' without thinking about it, and if anything it sounds weird to me when others say 'google'.
I also think if I were Google ('s lawyer, or in some appropriate/ly-senior position or whatever) I wouldn't feel great about it - it's surely quite damning in any competition law cases on search?
I've started to really oppose that, and avoid it in my own speech. ('search' is fine.)
It may sound like a stupid trivial thing, but language is so.. powerful/important, and I don't need Google ingrained in mine. It was difficult/didn't come naturally at first, but now I use 'search' without thinking about it, and if anything it sounds weird to me when others say 'google'.
I also think if I were Google ('s lawyer, or in some appropriate/ly-senior position or whatever) I wouldn't feel great about it - it's surely quite damning in any competition law cases on search?
Thing is, google doesn't want you to really use the term google because it makes creating a trademark ever so harder.
</Fun little side fact>
I'm sure they also have concerns about it being coming over as monopolistic behavior
</Fun little side fact>
I'm sure they also have concerns about it being coming over as monopolistic behavior
Good point, I didn't think about trademarking. Bing changing its button label from 'search' (or 'go' or whatever it currently is) to 'google' would be fun to watch play out!
Isn't it also the most searched-for term on Google?
People just type "google" in the address bar when they want to go to a search engine.
People just type "google" in the address bar when they want to go to a search engine.
>People just type "google" in the address bar when they want to go to a search engine.
Is this still common? Modern browsers will give an option to run a search directly from the URL bar, or automatically search anything not a URL... I haven't actually had to "go to a search engine" to search in a long time.
Is this still common? Modern browsers will give an option to run a search directly from the URL bar, or automatically search anything not a URL... I haven't actually had to "go to a search engine" to search in a long time.
Non-technical people do weird things.
Early into my career I had a corporate job and virtually all of my coworkers would follow the same approach:
1. type 'google' into the address bar
2. type the name of a major website into the search bar, e.g. 'cnn'
3. click on the cnn link at the top of the search results
I always asked them why they wouldn't simply type cnn.com in the address bar, but the only response I got was a confused look
People simply don't understand URLs. Google has made it so easy to find their destination that they'd rather waste 3 clicks than learn how to browse the web efficiently
1. type 'google' into the address bar
2. type the name of a major website into the search bar, e.g. 'cnn'
3. click on the cnn link at the top of the search results
I always asked them why they wouldn't simply type cnn.com in the address bar, but the only response I got was a confused look
People simply don't understand URLs. Google has made it so easy to find their destination that they'd rather waste 3 clicks than learn how to browse the web efficiently
Older users have probably been burned by mistyping the URL and ending up on a spam site that owns a proximal address like "googl.co". I myself remember having it happen back in the day.
These days big companies with scammable audiences like FB and Google buy up any domain name that could reasonably be associated with them.
These days big companies with scammable audiences like FB and Google buy up any domain name that could reasonably be associated with them.
I've stopped manually typing urls put of fear of typosquatting. If you don't have something bookmarked, it's safer to google for the website and click the first non-ad result.
Same. I used to mock those used Google as their address bar. But I've ended up in the same place. At least for sites I don't visit daily / weekly. There's so many different TLDs now. I never remember if some rarely visited site is .com or something else.
"Oh my God, Jerry? When you check your email, you go to AltaVista and type 'please go to yahoo.com'?"-Tom Haverford.
I don't like using the address bar for search. It just feels wrong to me, like the browser is taking over that much more of what it thinks I want to do.
Yes, very common. Not something us techies do too much, but remember, we're approaching the point where the majority of the world's population uses some sort of computer, while there are people alive in computer-available regions that did not have one for the majority of their lives, or use them only "transactionally".
Just eyeballing these two facts should not surprise you that a large fraction (if not the majority) of people use computers in archaic or inefficient ways.
---
The HN audience more or less devotes a big chunk of their brain-space (however you define it) and time to operating or being aware of computers, so naturally we have an interest in making that use efficient. But a lot of people only use computers socially (where the speed of human interactions is much slower than any inefficient web-searching) or for specific operations (buying stuff online, banking, check the weather, entertainment, etc) where any kind of computer use is still faster than, for example going to an ATM to check your balance.
(By computer I mean any general-purpose informatics, including phones)
Just eyeballing these two facts should not surprise you that a large fraction (if not the majority) of people use computers in archaic or inefficient ways.
---
The HN audience more or less devotes a big chunk of their brain-space (however you define it) and time to operating or being aware of computers, so naturally we have an interest in making that use efficient. But a lot of people only use computers socially (where the speed of human interactions is much slower than any inefficient web-searching) or for specific operations (buying stuff online, banking, check the weather, entertainment, etc) where any kind of computer use is still faster than, for example going to an ATM to check your balance.
(By computer I mean any general-purpose informatics, including phones)
There is a relevant comic for this https://img.memecdn.com/scroll-wheel_o_903702.jpg and as someone who has worked level 1 helpdesk, it's very true. People find a way to use the system that ends up working for them even if it's convoluted.
I keep my mouth shut cause I know it's absurd to think everyone should learn to use a computer efficiently as possible, but watching most people use a computer is torture for me
Every time they grab the mouse for something that has an easy shortcut I feel the seconds of my life being drained away
Every time they grab the mouse for something that has an easy shortcut I feel the seconds of my life being drained away
I feel the same way whenever I touch my mouse in a code editor like Sublime or VS Code.
I think about how there's some emacs/vim pro out there never using their mouse and modifying multiple lines of code within seconds while I click and drag and select from menus.
I think about how there's some emacs/vim pro out there never using their mouse and modifying multiple lines of code within seconds while I click and drag and select from menus.
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I find weird to say, but I actually like Bing. It has a LOT less bullshit compared to google. It searches for what I asked it, not about what it thinks I actually want, image search and in general the interface has less dark patterns.
My main SE is duckduckgo, but using Bing out of curiosity I was surprised to say "not bad". Compared to google without adblocker which is just awful.
My main SE is duckduckgo, but using Bing out of curiosity I was surprised to say "not bad". Compared to google without adblocker which is just awful.
AFAIK duckduckgo is mostly powered by Bing. Do you see a substantial difference?
I see no difference in results, only in interface, Duck being even cleaner than Bing, reason why I use it (the privacy part sounds nice but is not actually verifiable)
> the privacy part sounds nice but is not actually verifiable
For what it’s worth, ive been a DDG user for many years, including their mobile browser.
Not once have I ever seen a targeted ad. The only ads are search ads; if I search for shoes, I’ll get ads for shoes.
For what it’s worth, ive been a DDG user for many years, including their mobile browser.
Not once have I ever seen a targeted ad. The only ads are search ads; if I search for shoes, I’ll get ads for shoes.
Another good thing with bing is rewards - I get about $5-$10 a month in Amazon vouchers. Was better when I could get skype credit but they stopped it.
Bing is my homepage, beautiful photos every day. Search results in US are fine.
But Google says its service is simply the most popular.
"We have submitted evidence showing that the most common search query on Bing is, by far, 'Google'"
I assume they have collected this evidence from Chrome users?
"We have submitted evidence showing that the most common search query on Bing is, by far, 'Google'"
I assume they have collected this evidence from Chrome users?
0 Chrome users use Bing (rounded down)
Probably not, I imagine the vast majority of this would be from Edge for Windows users.
How would they get that data?
Edge had a clean start page like Google. Looks like the MBAs over at Microsoft prevailed over the engineers and UX people to make it look like msn.com of the late 90s.
There's customization options to allow you to turn off everything. Settings cog in the top right -> custom, then set "Quick links" and "Content" to off. Just leaves a search bar and the weather widget
I don't use Bing, but I use Yandex from time to time. It's not that bad (not counting being hosted in quasi-democratic country). If Google stopped working one day I would switch to Yandex without much regret.
Bing for me became a meme, a search engine that nobody wants to use but that is nevertheless pushed down your throat by Microsoft (just like IE a few years ago). I tried to use Bing a few times, one thing that I find absolutely annoying are the pictures - every day a new image - I find it very distracting. I am not going to search engine website to watch pictures. I have the same feelings about Doodles, the last one (Olimpic games) really got on my nerves. Maybe there should be a two versions of Google - one for casual browsing and one for actually doing work.
As EU citizen I am really ashamed of EU inability to do big tech. Europe should have its own search engine. US, Russia and China seem superior in that regard. Search engine is no longer a simple indexing app, now it can be used to shape worldviews and do propaganda. Still I do not believe EU can do anything in this regard...
Bing for me became a meme, a search engine that nobody wants to use but that is nevertheless pushed down your throat by Microsoft (just like IE a few years ago). I tried to use Bing a few times, one thing that I find absolutely annoying are the pictures - every day a new image - I find it very distracting. I am not going to search engine website to watch pictures. I have the same feelings about Doodles, the last one (Olimpic games) really got on my nerves. Maybe there should be a two versions of Google - one for casual browsing and one for actually doing work.
As EU citizen I am really ashamed of EU inability to do big tech. Europe should have its own search engine. US, Russia and China seem superior in that regard. Search engine is no longer a simple indexing app, now it can be used to shape worldviews and do propaganda. Still I do not believe EU can do anything in this regard...
When I joined Google in 2005, "yahoo" was the most popular query. How times have changed.
"Navigational queries" was what we called them. There's actually a semi-rational reason why you'd want to do them: if you misspell a bank's URL, for instance, Google will fix it for you, while there could be sleazebags camping on the domains with the common misspellings.
"Navigational queries" was what we called them. There's actually a semi-rational reason why you'd want to do them: if you misspell a bank's URL, for instance, Google will fix it for you, while there could be sleazebags camping on the domains with the common misspellings.
And "Reddit" is probably added to most searches on Google.
I've been shocked how consistently this improves the quality of search results.
Searching something like "get new cats to adjust to one another" on Google returns nothing but list-icle, SEO-laden crap with incredibly low information density and no mention of personal experience with the search subject from the ethereal "author" of such posts.
Adding site:reddit.com does wonders, but even just typing "get new cats to adjust to one another *reddit* " will return threads going back almost a decade with loads of suggestions, personal experience, and more.
It's not always useful (not anywhere near everything on reddit is worth being sourced) but just chucking the word reddit into search seems to be the most straightforward way to dredge up actual user-generated content that's not 100% crap.
Wish there were search engines designed to crawl more of that side of the internet and less of Google's schlocky results. I'm so sick of list-icles.
Searching something like "get new cats to adjust to one another" on Google returns nothing but list-icle, SEO-laden crap with incredibly low information density and no mention of personal experience with the search subject from the ethereal "author" of such posts.
Adding site:reddit.com does wonders, but even just typing "get new cats to adjust to one another *reddit* " will return threads going back almost a decade with loads of suggestions, personal experience, and more.
It's not always useful (not anywhere near everything on reddit is worth being sourced) but just chucking the word reddit into search seems to be the most straightforward way to dredge up actual user-generated content that's not 100% crap.
Wish there were search engines designed to crawl more of that side of the internet and less of Google's schlocky results. I'm so sick of list-icles.
That's a good tip. I just speculatively typed "!r cats adjust" into the search thingy in firefox and got lots of nice reddit threads.
Someone somewhere (probably duckduckgo) thinks 'search on reddit' is useful enough that there's a shortcut for it.
Someone somewhere (probably duckduckgo) thinks 'search on reddit' is useful enough that there's a shortcut for it.
theres tens of thousands of !bangs on DDG, its really useful when you get to know the ones useful to you
Reading the article, the worrying question that jumps out at me is how do google know what the top search on Bing is?
Searches coming from domain
Good point! I guess that would give them the number of people searching for google on bing. Maybe there is enough public information about the totals to say this was the most searched term.
In addition they have Google Analytics on a huge % of pages, so they can track referrals from Bing to those pages, and if the referrals to Google's homepage eclipse those, that's a strong indication.
...assuming Bing isn't preventing that behaviour.
...assuming Bing isn't preventing that behaviour.
That gives you the number but not a comparison. To claim "most searched word on Bing" requires knowledge how much other terms are searched on Bing.
Could you elaborate on this? Is there a mechanism (e.g. HTTP header) which tells Google this when someone types in "Google" in Bing and presses enter?
What if they don't click on the google.com search result?
What if they don't click on the google.com search result?
Yes, it is the referer header, for example this is what my browser sends when clicking a link from Bing after searching for google:
Referer: https://www.bing.com/search?q=google&pq&cvid=3C49B41400954D3...
Google can use that to see your search terms because it in the value of the q attribute.
If they don't go to a Google property then they will still be able to get this information, if the website they do go to uses Google Analytics (which is most of the web).
Referer: https://www.bing.com/search?q=google&pq&cvid=3C49B41400954D3...
Google can use that to see your search terms because it in the value of the q attribute.
If they don't go to a Google property then they will still be able to get this information, if the website they do go to uses Google Analytics (which is most of the web).
And most of google's searches are (at least, were) complete URLs, so there's that.
Google is also searched a lot on Google ... 80M/month from USA according to Ahrefs.com. Compare to youtube 166M, facebook 170M and netflix 15M.
I'm sure most of it isn't people searching for google though, it is people using the default search box in Edge or where-ever else Bing is the default search provider as if it is a smart address box, hammering in “google” without the .com (or other tld) and getting what they want as the first answer.
I bet “facebook” is a very popular search term too for the same reason.
I bet “facebook” is a very popular search term too for the same reason.
I do this all the time, I am used to the browser autocompleting the URL from history, but I think Edge was designed to maximize Bing searches to pump up usage numbers.
Whenever I end up on Bing, I go out of my way to search for “Google” (and click the link) before closing it. If I also happen to be in Edge (because microsoft ignored/changed the defaults again), then I also make sure to search for “Chrome”.
It’s petty and childish, but it’s my way of coping with the fact that I have no power when I’m using Windows. And I don’t even use Google or Chrome.
It’s petty and childish, but it’s my way of coping with the fact that I have no power when I’m using Windows. And I don’t even use Google or Chrome.
No doubt Google is far more popular than Bing, and "to google" is synonymous with search itself. But one important difference to note may be that while "Bing" is almost used only for the search engine, the word "Google" is associated with a very large number of different products:
- Google Meet
- Google Home
- Google Pixel
- Google Dooodles
And so on...
- Google Meet
- Google Home
- Google Pixel
- Google Dooodles
And so on...
To be fair, Bing search is pretty much at a level comparable to google in the early '10s in my experience, so I understand why people are not thrilled by it. It's _fine_, but it's definitely not up to par with Google, not even close.
And I'm willing to bet "chrome" or "google chrome" is also near the top, or at least a significant number, typed by users in edge/bing right after install.
I'm not the biggest fan of Chrome domination for the future of the web, BUT I found microsoft insistances on trying to force edge/bing down my throat really pushing me away from trying them. If they do that when they're behind, how am I supposed to think they will be any better if they ever get back on top.
I'm not the biggest fan of Chrome domination for the future of the web, BUT I found microsoft insistances on trying to force edge/bing down my throat really pushing me away from trying them. If they do that when they're behind, how am I supposed to think they will be any better if they ever get back on top.
I don't use Google on my phone because of the ridiculous US copyright law that destroyed their image search. Still upset over that.
Luckily Startpage doesn't care about Getty.
Luckily Startpage doesn't care about Getty.
The Google Image Search nerf is so tragic. It used to be incredible, and now it can barely find anything. And there's nothing that comes close to how it was before. I'll usually go through the course of Google, Bing, Tineye, and Yandex to reverse photos but I'll regularly get no hits on things I know should exist somewhere online
Similar to how IE was used in Windows to download some other browser. That makes something like Firefox the most searched first item on IE.
I gave Bing an honest try, and I wanted it to work for me... but it is just horrible at finding what I am looking for.
People underestimate the value of familiarity. I use Google rather than Bing not because I know it's better or such like but I'm used to it and can't be bothered to learn the quirks of some other system. So if I had to search on a computer with Bing as default I'd probably type Google and use that. Bit like I use English rather than French not because it's a better language but because I don't want to spend ages learning a new one. In the discussion the other day on why people use Chrome rather than Firefox was Firefox changes the user interface and disabled the extensions they use. On the other hand as far as I can tell Chrome works basically the same it always did.
This is similar to safari being used to download and install chrome :)
Would love to know how many people's Safari has been used only once to download Chrome. But of course Apple will never tell us that.
Or for that matter on iOS, the App Store used to download the chrome app to then delete the safari app :)
Also LOL - https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4260837
Also LOL - https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4260837
On a side note i recently tried duckduckgo again. 5 years ago I thought the searching was unusable today I've seen insane improvements haven't used google in 3 months.
Instead of typing "google.com" on the address bar one goes to bing.com and type "google". How lazy we have become?
But not the other way around. How embarrassing :)
I wonder how far up "Google" is as a search termon Google
This sounds like IT Crowd joke.
'Google' is not the most common query on Google, just the most common search result.
So, not “facebook” like it used to?
That crowed probably installed the app on their phone.
It would be nice to see where the search for Microsoft or any of its product names placed..
Actually both Google and Bing suck. I miss the times when the search results were actually relevant.
The worst is Google, even if I try to verbatim search something, the results are about what Google thinks I should be interested in, not about what I am actually looking for.
I see here a huge market for search engines which deliver relevant results.
The worst is Google, even if I try to verbatim search something, the results are about what Google thinks I should be interested in, not about what I am actually looking for.
I see here a huge market for search engines which deliver relevant results.
Dear Bing, want to have me as a full-time user?
(1) When I search for two words like OpenIDConnect replyUrlsWithType, only give me results that have both those terms. Don't make me put pluses on everything. And when I do give you pluses, please honor those pluses.
(2) When you ask me "Did you mean [blah]?" give me a button to push: yes, no.
You could literally do this by next week. I'll check in next Friday to give it a try.
(1) When I search for two words like OpenIDConnect replyUrlsWithType, only give me results that have both those terms. Don't make me put pluses on everything. And when I do give you pluses, please honor those pluses.
(2) When you ask me "Did you mean [blah]?" give me a button to push: yes, no.
You could literally do this by next week. I'll check in next Friday to give it a try.
I can only imagine what kind of images Bing would show for this search
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Heheh. If there was ever proof they were a monopoly….
What’s the most commonly entered URL in Edge? The only one I’ve ever typed is google.com/chrome
Given that Edge is Chromium based, what exactly makes you pick Chrome over Edge?
All my stuff is in Chrome, history, cookies, passwords
Some how not the answer I expected, but I can see the argument. I keep nothing in my browser, besides a few bookmarks, so it didn't occur to me that someone would care about those things being automatically transferred over.
It can be transferred.
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/what-s-im...
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/what-s-im...
Then I'd have to sign in to MS instead of Google to store everything, I've acheived nothing.
Force of habit. Inertia. Familiarity. Bad aftertaste from IE.
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xaxaxb(1)
Hey! That was my joke for years.
You fools, you own a gate to the internet. When i search 8*9 in the start menu, show me the result of the multiplication instead of a link to "search web for 8*9". Make the menu auto-complete with the titles of the first 5 web results instead of random ads. Make it work well as an actually useful extension of search. Forget about edge and bing.com, you will care about the brand name later. (You can thank me later with a sizeable compensation package)